Wikiversity:Colloquium

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== Requested update to [[Wikiversity:Interface administrators]] ==

Currently, [[Wikiversity:Interface administrators]] is a policy that includes a caveat that interface admins are not required long-term and that user right can only be added for a period of up to two weeks. I am proposing that we remove this qualification and allow for indefinite interface admin status. I think this is useful because there are reasons for tweaking the site CSS or JavaScript (e.g. to comply with dark mode), add gadgets (e.g. importing Cat-a-Lot, which I would like to do), or otherwise modifying the site that could plausibly come up on an irregular basis and requiring the overhead of a bureaucrat to add the user rights is inefficient. In particular, I am also going to request this right if the community accepts indefinite interface admins. Thoughts? —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 23:23, 17 August 2025 (UTC)

:And who will then monitor them to make sure they don't damage the project in any way, or abuse the rights acquired in this way? For large projects, this might not be a problem, but for smaller projects like the English Wikiversity, I'm not sure if there are enough users who would say, something is happening here that shouldn't be happening. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 10:28, 20 August 2025 (UTC)
::Anyone would be who. This argument applies to any person with any advanced rights here. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 10:46, 20 August 2025 (UTC)
:I think it is reasonable to allow for longer periods of access than 2 weeks to interface admin and support adjusting the policy to allow for this flexibility. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 04:57, 2 December 2025 (UTC)
::+1 —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 16:38, 25 January 2026 (UTC)
:@[[User:Koavf|Koavf]] I agree that the two-week requirement could be revised, but wouldn’t people just request access for a specific purpose anyway? Instead of granting indefinite access, they should request the specific time frame they need the rights for—until the planned fixes are completed—and then request an extension if more time is required. We could remove the two-week criterion while still keeping the access explicitly temporary. [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 02:48, 25 January 2026 (UTC)
::I just don't see why this wiki needs to be different than all of the others. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 07:18, 25 January 2026 (UTC)
:::There isn’t really much of a need for a permanent one at this point in time [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 09:53, 25 January 2026 (UTC)
:I quite agree with this proposal, so long as they perform the suggested changes as mentioned here. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 04:06, 26 January 2026 (UTC)
:: Just to clarify, I support '''indefinite interface admin status'''. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 18:34, 13 April 2026 (UTC)
:I think there is decent consensus for lengthening this, but not necessarily for indefinite permissions, so does anyone object to me revising it to the standard being 120 days instead of two weeks? I'll check back on this thread in three weeks and if there's no objection, I'll make the change. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 20:47, 13 April 2026 (UTC)
::Sure [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 23:27, 13 April 2026 (UTC)
::Thanks for proposing this, Justin. I agree with the proposal to lengthen the interface admin period from 2 weeks but not indefinitely. Can I check the source(s) for the standard being 120 days (I'm guessing policies on other projects or maybe global policy?)? In any case, I think it is reasonable for us to adopt a similar period. However, note on the current policy discussion page notes from @[[User:Dave Braunschweig|Dave Braunschweig]] arguing for shorter periods to lower risk, that's why it is 2 weeks. But if there are projects that need longer access, that should also be accommodated. Maybe we could adjust the policy to specify that ''interface admin rights can be given for 14 to 120 days depending on how long is required and what is supported by the community''. Sincerely, James -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 08:29, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
:::There was there was no source for 120: it was just more than 14 and less than infinity. The &quot;14 to 120&quot; also seems reasonable. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 14:33, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
::: On some small/medium-sized wikis, such as English Wikibooks and English Wikiquote for example, indefinite interface administrator access for administrators is allowed, but they tend not to make changes to the CSS and JS page changes unless it's truly necessary. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 14:34, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
:::It's a good idea to make the length of this right on request or allow to be prolonged. However, IA should test large changes somewhere else, for example on the en.wv mirror, and only after testing it on the mirror, adapt it to the live version. That means I can't imagine a time-consuming operation right now. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 20:04, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
::::Sorry, what mirror is this? Are you talking about beta.wv? —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 20:32, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
:::::Not beta.wv. Basically somewhere else then on a live wiki. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 20:59, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
:::::: Wouldn't testing on a user's own common.css page work anyway? [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 21:36, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
:Change made here: https://en.wikiversity.org/w/index.php?title=Wikiversity%3AInterface_administrators&amp;diff=2807543&amp;oldid=2806289 —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 13:35, 4 May 2026 (UTC)

== [[Template:AI-generated]] ==

After going through the plethora of ChatGPT-generated pages made by [[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]] (with many more pages to go), I'd like community input on this proposal to [[Wikiversity:Artificial intelligence]] that I think would be benefical for the community:
*Resources generated by AI '''must''' be indicated as so through the project box, [[Template:AI-generated]], on either the page or the main resource (if the page is a part of a project).
I do not believe including a small note/reference that a page is AI-generated is sufficient, and I take my thinking from [[WV:Original research|Wikiversity's OR policy]] for OR work: ''Within Wikiversity, all original research should be clearly identified as such''. I believe resources created from AI should also be clearly indicated as such, especially since we are working on whether or not AI-generated resources should be allowed on the website (discussion is [[Wikiversity talk:Artificial intelligence|here]], for reference). This makes it easier for organizational purposes, and in the event ''if'' we ban AI-generated work. 

I've left a message on Lee's talk page over a week ago and did not get a response or acknowledgement, so I'd like for the community's input for this inclusion to the policy. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 15:53, 26 January 2026 (UTC)

:I believe that existing Wikiversity policies are sufficient. Authors are responsible for the accuracy and usefulness of the content that is published. This policy covers AI-generated content that is: 1) carefully reviewed by the author publishing it, and 2) the source is noted.   [[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]] ([[User talk:Lbeaumont|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Lbeaumont|contribs]]) 19:38, 27 January 2026 (UTC)
::A small reference for pages that are substantially filled with Chat-GPT entries, like [[Real Good Religion]], [[Attributing Blame]], [[Fostering Curiosity]], are not sufficient IMO and a project box would be the best indicator that a page is AI-generated (especially when there is a mixture of human created content AND AI-generated content, as present in a lot of your pages). This is useful, especially considering the notable issues with AI (including hallucinations and fabrication of details), so viewers and support staff are aware. These small notes left on the pages are not as easily viewable as a project box or banner would be. I really don't see the issue with a clear-label guideline. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 22:34, 27 January 2026 (UTC)
::{{ping|Lbeaumont}} I noticed your reversions [https://en.wikiversity.org/w/index.php?title=Exploring_Existential_Concerns&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2788278 here] &amp; [https://en.wikiversity.org/w/index.php?title=Subjective_Awareness&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2788257 here]. I'd prefer to have a clean conversation regarding this proposition. Please voice your concerns here. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 15:53, 28 January 2026 (UTC)
:::Regarding Subjective Awareness, I distinctly recall the effort I went to to write that the old-fashioned way. It is true that ChatGPT assisted me in augmenting the list of words suggested as candidate subjective states. This is a small section of the course, is clearly marked, and makes no factual claim. Marking the entire course as AI-generated is misleading. I would have made these comments when I reverted your edit; however, the revert button does not provide that opportunity.
:::Regarding the Exploring Existential Concerns course, please note this was adapted from my EmotionalCompetency.com website, which predates the availability of LLMs. The course does include two links, clearly labeled as ChatGPT-generated. Again, marking the entire course as AI-generated is misleading.
:::On a broader issue, I don't consider your opinions to have established a carefully debated and adopted Wikiversity policy. You went ahead and modified many of my courses over my clearly stated objections. Please let this issue play out more completely before editing my courses further. Thanks.   [[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]] ([[User talk:Lbeaumont|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Lbeaumont|contribs]]) 15:11, 29 January 2026 (UTC)
::::Understood, and I respect your position. I apologize if my edits were seen as overarching. We could change the project box to &quot;a portion of this resource was generated by AI&quot;, or something along those lines. Feel free to revert my changes where you see fit, and I encourage more users to provide their input. EDIT: I've made changes to the template to indicate that a portion of the content has been generated from an LLM. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 15:50, 29 January 2026 (UTC)
:::::Thanks for this reply. The new banner is unduly large and alarming. There is no need for alarm here. The use of AI is not harmful per se. Like any technology, it can be used to help or to harm. I take care to craft prompts carefully, point the LMM to reliable source materials, and to carefully read and verify the generated text before I publish it. This is all in keeping with long-established Wikiversity policy. We don't want to use a  [[w:One-drop_rule|one-drop rule]] here or cause a [[w:Satanic_panic|satanic panic]]. We can learn our lessons from history here. I don't see any pedagogical reason for establishing a classification of &quot;AI generated&quot;, but if there is a consensus that it is needed, perhaps it can be handled as just another category that learning resources can be assigned to. I would rather focus on identifying any errors in factual claims than on casting pejorative bias toward AI-generated content. An essay on the best practices for using LMM on Wikiveristy would be welcome.   [[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]] ([[User talk:Lbeaumont|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Lbeaumont|contribs]]) 15:58, 30 January 2026 (UTC)
::::::The new banner mimics the banner that is available on the English Wikibooks (see [[b:Template:AI-generated]] &amp; [[b:Template:Uses AI]]), so my revisions aren't unique in this aspect. At this point, I'd welcome other peoples' inputs. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 19:40, 30 January 2026 (UTC)

== How do I start making pages? ==
Is there a notability guideline for Wikiversity? What is the sourcing policy for information? What is the Manual of Style? What kind of educational content qualifies for Wikiversity? All the introduction pages are a bit unclear. 
[[User:VidanaliK|VidanaliK]] ([[User talk:VidanaliK|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/VidanaliK|contribs]]) 02:25, 28 January 2026 (UTC)

:{{ping|VidanaliK}} Welcome to Wikiversity! I've left you a welcome message on your talk page. That should help you out. Make sure to especially look at [[Wikiversity:Introduction]]. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 03:11, 28 January 2026 (UTC)
::It says that I can't post more pages because I have apparently exceeded the new page limit. How long does it take before that new page limit expires? [[User:VidanaliK|VidanaliK]] ([[User talk:VidanaliK|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/VidanaliK|contribs]]) 16:57, 28 January 2026 (UTC)
:::This is a restriction for new users so that Wikiversity is not hit with massive spam. As for when this limit will expire, it should be a few days or after a certain number of edits. It's easy to overcome, though I do not have the exact numbers atm. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 15:08, 29 January 2026 (UTC)
::::OK, I think I got past the limit. [[User:VidanaliK|VidanaliK]] ([[User talk:VidanaliK|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/VidanaliK|contribs]]) 17:21, 29 January 2026 (UTC)
==Why does it feel like Wikiversity is no longer really active anymore?==
I've been looking at recent changes, and both today and yesterday there haven't been many changes that I haven't made; it feels like walking through a ghost town, is this just me or is Wikiversity not really active anymore? [[User:VidanaliK|VidanaliK]] ([[User talk:VidanaliK|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/VidanaliK|contribs]]) 03:54, 30 January 2026 (UTC)

:There is fewer people editing these days compared to the past. Many newcomers tend to edit in Wikipedia instead. [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 06:39, 30 January 2026 (UTC)
:It’s a little slow, but I’m happy to know that Wikiversity is a place that I think should provide value even if the activity of editors fluctuates. If it’s any consolation your edits may be encouraging for some anonymous newcomer to start edits on their own! I think it’s hard to build community when there is such a wide variety of interests and a smaller starting userbase. Also sometimes the getting into a particular topic that already exists can be intimidating because some relics (large portals, school, categories, etc.) have intricate, unique and generally messy levels of organization. [[User:IanVG|IanVG]] ([[User talk:IanVG|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/IanVG|contribs]]) 22:16, 9 March 2026 (UTC)
:I'd say it comes down to working hard for Wikiversity, basically if somebody or a group of people will start presenting good ideas and they turn out to be provably stable.
:I even asked Google's &quot;AI Mode&quot;, what is Wikiversity famous for? Unfortunately it could not answer that.
:Simply, we have not made Wikiversity famous by presenting really provable stable ideas yet. My hope is that this time might come. Perhaps even this year 2026!
:Hope dies last. [[User:ThinkingScience|ThinkingScience]] ([[User talk:ThinkingScience|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ThinkingScience|contribs]]) 10:12, 27 April 2026 (UTC)

== Inactivity policy for Curators ==

I was wondering if there is a specific inactivity polity for curators (semi-admins) as I am pretty sure the global policy does not apply to them as they are not ''fully'' sysops. [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 03:20, 15 February 2026 (UTC)

:Unfortunately, I don't see an inactivity policy, but if we were to create such a new policy for curators, it should be the same for custodians (administrators). [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 18:45, 15 February 2026 (UTC)
::@[[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] There is currently none, that I could find, for custodians either. [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 00:47, 17 February 2026 (UTC)
:::I think we should propose a local inactivity policy for custodians (and by extension, curators), which should be at least one year without any edits ''and'' logged actions. However, I don't know which page should it be when the inactivity removal procedure starts. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 00:53, 17 February 2026 (UTC)
::::@[[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] In theory, there should be a section added at [[WV:Candidates for custodianship]] [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 00:55, 17 February 2026 (UTC)
::::: To be consistent with the [[meta:Admin activity review|global period of 2 years inactivity]] for en.wv  [[Wikiversity:Custodianship#Notes|Custodians]] and [[Wikiversity:Bureaucratship#How are bureaucrats removed?|Bureaucrats]] we could add something like this to [[Wikiversity:Curators]]:
::::::The maximum time period of inactivity &lt;u&gt;without community review&lt;/u&gt; for curators is two years (consistent with  the [[:meta:Category:Global policies|global policy]] described at [[meta:Admin activity review|Admin activity review]] which applies for [[Wikiversity:Custodianship#Notes|Custodians]] and [[Wikiversity:Bureaucratship|Bureaucrats]]). After that time a custodian will remove the rights.
::::: -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 10:51, 27 March 2026 (UTC)
:::::Yup, I agree with Jtneill, there is a policy proposal for Wikiversity:Curators, where it should be logically deployed. The question is if we are ready to aprove the policy. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 17:43, 17 April 2026 (UTC)
:::::: I agree, but we should notify the colloquium about inactive curators, just like a steward would do for inactive custodians and bureaucrats per [[:m:Admin activity review|AAR]]. What is the minimum timeframe an inactive curator should receive so they can respond they would keep their rights? [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 17:49, 17 April 2026 (UTC)
:I incorporated these suggestions into the proposed curators policy. Please review/comment/improve. Summary: 2 years, notify curator's user page, then remove rights after 1 month: [[Wikiversity:Curators#Inactivity]]. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 08:59, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
:: @[[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] I created [[Template:Inactive curator]] for this. Feel free to make any changes or improvements. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 14:29, 24 April 2026 (UTC)

== [[Wikiversity:Artificial intelligence]] to become an official policy ==
{{Archive top|After running for a week, there is consensus, alongside comments, for [[Wikiversity:Artificial intelligence]] to be implemented as an official policy. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 23:27, 17 April 2026 (UTC)}}
With the introduction of AI-material, and some material just plain disruptive, its imperative that Wikiversity catches up with its sister projects and implements an official AI policy that we can work with. The recent issue of [[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]]'s 50+ articles that contain significantly large AI-generated material has made me came to the Colloquium. This user has also been removing the [[Template:AI-generated]] template from their pages, calling it &quot;misleading&quot;, &quot;alarmist&quot;, and &quot;pejorative&quot; - which is all just simply nonsensical rationales. Not to even mention this user's contributions to the English Wikipedia have been [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Inner_Development_Goals contested] and [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Multipolar_trap removed] a couple of times (for being low-quality and clearly LLM-generated), highlighting the need for an actual policy to be implemented here on Wikiversity. I would like to ping {{ping|Juandev}} and {{ping|Jtneill}} for their thoughts as well, since I'd like this to be implemented as soon as possible. 

Wikiversity has a significant issue with implementing anti-disruptive measures, hence why we have received numerous complaints as a community about our quality. I originally was reverting the removal of the templates, but realized that this is still a proposed policy, which it shouldn't be anymore. It should be a recognized Wikiversity policy. 14:54, 10 March 2026 (UTC) —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 14:54, 10 March 2026 (UTC)

:@[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] '''I agree''' that the draft, should become official policy. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 17:00, 10 March 2026 (UTC)
:I provided a detailed response at: [[Wikiversity talk:Artificial intelligence#Evolving a Wikiversity policy on AI]]
:I will appreaciate it if you consder that carefully. [[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]] ([[User talk:Lbeaumont|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Lbeaumont|contribs]]) 22:49, 10 March 2026 (UTC)
:Agree it should become official Wikiversity policy on the condition &lt;u&gt;that point point 5 is about [significant/substantial] LLM-generated text specifically&lt;/u&gt;. Not a good idea to overuse it, it should be added when there is substantial AI-generated text on the page, not for other cases. [[User:Prototyperspective|Prototyperspective]] ([[User talk:Prototyperspective|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Prototyperspective|contribs]]) 12:37, 11 March 2026 (UTC)
:What policy is being debated? Is it the text on this page, which is pointed to by the general banner, or the text at:   [[Wikiversity:Artificial intelligence|Wikiversity:Artificial intelligence,]]   which is pointed to by the specific banner? Let's begin with coherence on the text being debated. Thanks!  [[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]] ([[User talk:Lbeaumont|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Lbeaumont|contribs]]) 11:49, 17 March 2026 (UTC)
::@[[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]] This is a call for approval of the new Wikiversity policy. You expressed your opinion [[Wikiversity talk:Artificial intelligence#Evolving a Wikiversity policy on AI|on the talk page of the proposal]], I replied to you and await your response.When creating policies, it is necessary to propose specific solutions. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 14:12, 17 March 2026 (UTC)
:::Toward a Justified and Parsimonious AI Policy 
:::As we collaborate to develop a consensus policy on the use of Large Language Models, it is wise to begin by considering the needs of the various stakeholders to the policy.
:::The stakeholders are:
:::1)     The users, 
:::2)     The source providers, and
:::3)     The editors
:::There may also be others with a minor stake in this policy, including the population at large.
:::The many needs of the users are currently addressed by long-standing [[Wikiversity:Policies|Wikiversity policies]], so we can focus on what, if any, additional needs arise as LLMs are deployed. 
:::As always, users need assurance that propositional statements are accurate. This is covered by the existing policy on [[Wikiversity:Verifiability|verifiably]]. In addition, it is expected by both the users and those that provide materials used as sources for the text are [[Wikiversity:Cite sources|accurately attributed]]. This is also covered by [[Wikiversity:Cite sources|existing policies]].
:::To respect the time and effort of editors, a parsimonious policy will unburden editors from costly requirements that exceed benefits to the users.
:::Finally, it is important to recognize that because attention is our most valuable seizing attention unnecessarily is a form of theft. 
:::The following proposed policy statement results from these considerations:
:::Recommended Policy statement:
:::·       Editors [[Wikiversity:Verifiability|verify the accuracy]] of propositional statements, regardless of the source.
:::·       Editors [[Wikiversity:Cite sources|attribute the source]] of propositional statements. In the case of LLM, cite the LLM model and the prompt used.
:::·       Use of various available templates to mark the use of LLM are optional. Templates that are flexible in noting the type and extend of LLM usage are preferred. Templates that avoid unduly distracting or alarming the user are preferred. [[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]] ([[User talk:Lbeaumont|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Lbeaumont|contribs]]) 19:56, 19 March 2026 (UTC)
::::Do we discuss here or there? I have replied you there as your proposal is about that policy so it is tradition to discuss it at the affected talk page. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 21:59, 19 March 2026 (UTC)
: {{support}} Thanks for the proposed policy development and discussion; also note proposed policy talk page discussion: [[Wikiversity talk:Artificial intelligence]] -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 12:05, 24 March 2026 (UTC)
::I think the Wikiversity AI policy shall be official. – [[User:RestoreAccess111|RestoreAccess111]] &lt;sup style=&quot;font-family:Arimo, Arial;&quot;&gt;[[User talk:RestoreAccess111|Talk!]]&lt;/sup&gt; &lt;sup style=&quot;font-family:Times New Roman, Tinos;&quot;&gt;[[Special:Contributions/RestoreAccess111|Watch!]]&lt;/sup&gt; 06:11, 13 April 2026 (UTC)
{{archive bottom}}

== New titles for user right nominations ==
&lt;div class=&quot;cd-moveMark&quot;&gt;''Moved from [[Wikiversity talk:Candidates for Custodianship#New titles for user right nominations]].  [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 23:20, 17 April 2026 (UTC)''&lt;/div&gt;

I would like to propose the following retitles should a user be nominated for any of the following user rights:
* Curator: Candidates for Curatorship
* Bureaucrat: Candidates for Bureaucratship
The reason is that many curator (and probably bureaucrat) requests have run solely under {{tq|Candidates for Custodianship}}, but that title might sound misleading (especially in regards to the permission a user is requesting). CheckUser and Oversight (suppressor) are not included above since no user was nominated for these sensitive permissions, probably. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 01:30, 19 March 2026 (UTC)

:And it's not that when someone at the beginning misplaced the request, no one thought to move it and the others copied it. Even today, it would be possible to simply take it all and move it. Otherwise, for me, the more fundamental problem is that there is [[Wikiversity:Curators|no approved policy for curators]] than where the requests are based. Curators then operate in a certain vacuum and if one of them &quot;breaks out of the chain&quot;, the average user doesn't have many transparent tools to deal with it, because there is no policy. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 07:02, 19 March 2026 (UTC)
::I am not talking about the curator page (policy proposal). [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 19:08, 21 March 2026 (UTC)
: @[[User:Juandev|Juandev]] I'll see if I can do an overhaul of [[Wikiversity:Candidates for Custodianship]], just like I recently did with the Requests for adminship page on English Wikiquote. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 22:17, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
:Yes, great idea - ideally there will be separate &quot;Candidates for ...&quot; pages for each user right group. The most important for now is to separate curator and custodian pages as CN suggests. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 11:39, 1 May 2026 (UTC)
:So maybe I previously misunderstood. Are you proposing separated pages for nominations (i.e. [[Wikiversity:Candidates for Curatorship]], [[Wikiversity:Candidates for Bureaucratship]], [[Wikiversity:Candidates for Custodianship]])? [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 12:30, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
:: Yes. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 13:33, 5 May 2026 (UTC)

== Technical Request:  Courtesy link.. ==

[[Template_talk:Information#Background_must_have_color_defined_as_well]] [[User:ShakespeareFan00|ShakespeareFan00]] ([[User talk:ShakespeareFan00|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ShakespeareFan00|contribs]]) 11:43, 20 March 2026 (UTC)
: I can't edit the template directly as it need an sysop/interface admin to do it. [[User:ShakespeareFan00|ShakespeareFan00]] ([[User talk:ShakespeareFan00|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ShakespeareFan00|contribs]]) 11:43, 20 March 2026 (UTC)
:: Also if the Template field of - https://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Special:LintErrors/night-mode-unaware-background-color is examined, there is poential for an admin to clear a substantial proportion of these by implmenting a simmilar fix to the indciated templates (and underlying stylesheets). It would be nice to clear things like Project box and others, as many other templates (and thus pages depend on them.) :)
[[User:ShakespeareFan00|ShakespeareFan00]] ([[User talk:ShakespeareFan00|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ShakespeareFan00|contribs]]) 11:43, 20 March 2026 (UTC)

:I think it would be best to grant you interface admin rights for a short period of time to make these changes. However, I still have doubts about the suitability of this solution, which may cause other problems and no one has explained to me why dark mode has to be implemented this way @[[User:ShakespeareFan00|ShakespeareFan00]]. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 20:43, 20 March 2026 (UTC)

: I would have reservations about holding such rights, which is why I was trying to do what I could without needing them. However if it is the only way to get the required changes made, I would suggest asking on Wikipedia to find technical editors, willing to undertake the changes needed. [[User:ShakespeareFan00|ShakespeareFan00]] ([[User talk:ShakespeareFan00|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ShakespeareFan00|contribs]]) 09:32, 21 March 2026 (UTC)

== WikiEducator has closed ==

Some of you may know of a similar project to Wikiversity, called [https://wikieducator.org/Main_Page WikiEducator], championed by [https://oerfoundation.org/about/staff/wayne-mackintosh/ Wayne Mackintosh][https://www.linkedin.com/posts/waynemackintosh_important-notice-about-the-oer-foundation-activity-7405113051688931329-Nhm9/][https://openeducation.nz/killed-not-starved/].

It seems [https://openeducation.nz/terminating-oer-foundation their foundation has closed] and they are no longer operating.

They had done quite a bit of outreach (e.g., in the Pacific and Africa) to get educators using wiki.

The WikiEducator content is still available in MediaWiki - and potentially could be imported to Wikiversity ([https://wikieducator.org/WikiEducator:Copyrights CC-BY-SA] is the default license).

The closing of WikiEducator arguably makes the nurturing of Wikiversity even more important.

-- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 02:09, 1 April 2026 (UTC)

:I was never active there. If anyone has an account or is otherwise in contact, we may want to copy relevant information here or even at [[:outreach:]]. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 04:46, 1 April 2026 (UTC)

:: I reached out to [[User:Mackiwg~enwikiversity|Wayne]] in January, and he responded briefly but positively (while travelling).  I wrote to the low-traffic wikieducator mailing list today and got a nice [https://groups.google.com/g/wikieducator/c/r_yIyUw6ZIA reply] from [[user:SteveFoerster|Steve Foerster]] who's interested in helping. If we can figure out a migration path it would be great to adopt at least the main namespace pages here.  
:: A few questions that come to mind: 
:: - would people want to create matching user accounts
:: - are there any namespaces (user/talk?) that should not be moved over
:: We could look at how this was done for the [[m:Wikivoyage/Migration]] wikivoyage migration. &lt;span style=&quot;padding:0 2px 0 2px;background-color:white;color:#bbb;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash;[[User:Sj|SJ]][[User Talk:Sj|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#ff9900;&quot;&gt;+&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 04:27, 1 May 2026 (UTC)
:::That's fantastic, SJ, that you've reached out and that Wayne, Steve, and Jim are receptive—and that you can help! -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 11:52, 1 May 2026 (UTC)

== Wikinews is ending ==

Apparently mainly due to low editorial activity, low public interest, but also failure to achieve the goals from the proposal for the creation of the project, the Wikinews project is ending after years of discussions ([[Meta:Proposal for Closing Wikinews|some reading]]).

And I would be interested to see how Wikiversity is doing in the monitored metrics. We probably have more editors than Wikinews had, but what about consumers and achieving the goals? [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 19:14, 1 April 2026 (UTC)

:Wikiversity's biggest issue in recent times was the hosting of low-quality, trash content. Thankfully we've done a great job in removing pseudoscience and other embarrassingly trash content (Wikidebates, for example), but the biggest concern moving forward is proper maintenance IMO. I've caught several pseudoscience pages being created within the last few months that could easily have flown under the radar (ex, [[The Kelemen Dilemma: Causal Collapse and Axiomatic Instability]]), so I'd urge our custodians/curators to be on the lookout for this type of content. Usually an AI-overview can point this type of content out relatively well.
:In terms of visibility, I believe Wikiversity is a high-traffic project. I remember my [[Mathematical Properties]] showing up on the first page of Google when searching up &quot;math properties&quot; for the longest time (and is still showing up in the first page 'till this day!). Besides, Wikinews hosted a lot of short-term content (the nature of news articles), while Wikiversity hosts content that can still be useful a decade later (ex, [[A Reader's Guide to Annotation]]). 
:I think we are on a better path than we were a few months ago, and I do want to thank everyone here who has been helping out with maintaining our website! —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 20:48, 1 April 2026 (UTC)
:For what it's worth, the group that did that study has since disbanded, so no one is monitoring the other sister projects in the same way. Additionally, Wikinews had some catastrophic server issues due to the maintenance of [[:m:Extension:DynamicPageList]] which don't apply here. Your questions are still worth addressing, but I just wanted to cut off any concern at the pass about Wikiversity being in the same precarious situation. Wikiversity is definitely the biggest &quot;lagging behind&quot; or &quot;failure&quot; project now that Wikinews is being shuttered, but I don't see any near- or medium-term pathway to closing Wikiversity. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 00:46, 2 April 2026 (UTC)

:[[w:en:Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2026-03-31/News and notes|Entirety of Wikinews to be shut down]] (Wikipedia Signpost) -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 02:03, 11 April 2026 (UTC)

== Action Required: Update templates/modules for electoral maps (Migrating from P1846 to P14226) ==

Hello everyone,

This is a notice regarding an ongoing data migration on Wikidata that may affect your election-related templates and Lua modules (such as &lt;code&gt;Module:Itemgroup/list&lt;/code&gt;).

'''The Change:'''&lt;br /&gt;
Currently, many templates pull electoral maps from Wikidata using the property [[:d:Property:P1846|P1846]], combined with the qualifier [[:d:Property:P180|P180]]: [[:d:Q19571328|Q19571328]]. 

We are migrating this data (across roughly 4,000 items) to a newly created, dedicated property: '''[[:d:Property:P14226|P14226]]'''.

'''What You Need To Do:'''&lt;br /&gt;
To ensure your templates and infoboxes do not break or lose their maps, please update your local code to fetch data from [[:d:Property:P14226|P14226]] instead of the old [[:d:Property:P1846|P1846]] + [[:d:Property:P180|P180]] structure. A [[m:Wikidata/Property Migration: P1846 to P14226/List|list of pages]] was generated using Wikimedia Global Search.

'''Deadline:'''&lt;br /&gt;
We are temporarily retaining the old data on [[:d:Property:P1846|P1846]] to allow for a smooth transition. However, to complete the data cleanup on Wikidata, the old [[:d:Property:P1846|P1846]] statements will be removed after '''May 1, 2026'''. Please update your modules and templates before this date to prevent any disruption to your wiki's election articles.

Let us know if you have any questions or need assistance with the query logic. Thank you for your help! [[User:ZI Jony|ZI Jony]] using [[User:MediaWiki message delivery|MediaWiki message delivery]] ([[User talk:MediaWiki message delivery|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/MediaWiki message delivery|contribs]]) 17:11, 3 April 2026 (UTC)
&lt;!-- Message sent by User:ZI Jony@metawiki using the list at https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Distribution_list/Non-Technical_Village_Pumps_distribution_list&amp;oldid=29941252 --&gt;
:I didnt find such properties, so we are probably fine. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 21:00, 12 April 2026 (UTC)
:: +1 (agreed). [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 22:19, 12 April 2026 (UTC)

== Enable the abuse filter block action? ==

In light of [[Special:AbuseLog/80178]] (coupon spam), I would like to propose enabling the block action for the abuse filter. Only custodians will be able to enable and disable that action on an abuse filter, and it is useful to block ongoing vandalism. Thoughts? [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 19:12, 13 April 2026 (UTC)

:Seems like a good idea, almost all of the users which create such pages are spambots so this shouldn’t be a problem. [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 23:41, 13 April 2026 (UTC)
:Can you explain some more (I am new to abuse filters)? It looks like the attempted edit was prevented? Which abuse filter?
:Note on your suggestion, have also reactivated Antispam Filter 12 - see [[WV:RCA]]. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 10:45, 15 April 2026 (UTC)
:: I am proposing that we activate the abuse filter block action, which if a user triggers an abuse filter, it would actually block the user in question - the same mechanism that a custodian would use to block users. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 13:11, 15 April 2026 (UTC)
:::OK, thankyou, that makes sense. And, reviewing the abuse filter 12 log, it would be helpful because it would prevent the need for manual blocking. But I don't see a setting for autoblocking? -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 23:14, 15 April 2026 (UTC)
:::: I think it probably adds an autoblock. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 00:43, 16 April 2026 (UTC)
: [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] and [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]], given that a little bit more than a week has passed and there is minimal consensus to activate the abuse filter block action, I filed [[phab:T424053]]. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 15:05, 21 April 2026 (UTC)
::Thank-you for doing this. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 08:03, 24 April 2026 (UTC)

== Advice needed: A Neurodiversity-inspired Idea/observation ==

If I want the greatest participation of others to &quot;provide constructive criticism to my idea&quot; or to &quot;shoot down my idea&quot; or &quot;idea&quot;.

What I've called it so far is &quot;The Neurodiversity-inspired Idea&quot;. At other times I used more sensationalist wording but here on Wikiversity I don't dare do that. I actually woke up with thinking about putting this into my userspace draft: &quot;Personal Observations Made By Meeting Autistic and Non-Autistic Adults&quot;.

My ultimate goal is to stop blathering about my &quot;idea&quot; to friend and family without feeling my &quot;methodology&quot; is going into any progressive direction whatsoever. My latest encounter was somewhat constructive though. A friend of a friend who worked with people presenting ideas in attempting to getting grants. I don't want a grant. I just want to figure out how I can express my &quot;idea&quot; in a way so that I can more clearly figure out what flaws it got.

At the same time I tend to overthink. If anyone thinks etherpad might be a good place and considering Wikimedia already got an etherpad at https://etherpad.wikimedia.org/ if anyone feels like they know me better in the future feel free to suggest a &quot;session&quot; on etherpad.

'''If I don't receive a reply to this in 1 week's time I will begin to explore this &quot;idea&quot; into my userspace''' unless you replied and refrained me from doing so, of course. Then maybe after &quot;developing it there&quot; I might reference it to you another future time here in the Colloquium, with my &quot;idea&quot; still in my userspace draft. This &quot;idea&quot; is sort of a burden, I'm happy I've made the choice to get rid of it and hopefully move on with my life, unless there is something to this &quot;idea&quot;. 

My failure is probably evident: I feel I haven't told you anything. Same happened to when I talked to friends and family. In danger of overthinking it further I'll publish this right now. I need to &quot;keep it together&quot; [[User:ThinkingScience|ThinkingScience]] ([[User talk:ThinkingScience|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ThinkingScience|contribs]]) 10:36, 16 April 2026 (UTC)

:Good on you putting it out there ... and hitting publish :). I'd say go for it (no need to wait), give birth to your idea and share about it here and elsewhere. Let it take shape and see where it might go. In many ways, this is exactly what an open collaborative learning community should be doing. Others might not know well how to respond, so perhaps consider creating some questions to accompany the idea. Sincerely, James -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 11:21, 16 April 2026 (UTC)
::Thank you for encouraging me in developing the idea.
::I have created a &quot;questions&quot; section in the draft which is visible in the table of contents now. My brain was &quot;frozen&quot; today metaphorically speaking in that I felt I had like a &quot;writer's block&quot; so the draft has more &quot;AI/LLM&quot; content than before. I used the LLM for generating questions. The answers are so far human-only.
::I've also created a subsection where I could add the prompts that made the LLM generate the questions. That could help people make better prompts perhaps. I've described what it is about inside of it and there are some chaotically written notes.
::[[Draft:The_Neurodiversity-inspired_Idea#Questions_that_might_encourage_the_development_of_this_idea_and_its_methodology]]
::My draft is missing stuff. Any questions that you contribute to my draft will probably help me and if I don't understand the questions I'll probably notify you and also at the same time &quot;feed them&quot; to an LLM and ask in my input like &quot;explain in simple words what this question means, what is it searching for?&quot; etc. while I wait for an answer. If you have any more feedback please give it to me here or on the Draft page, its talk page or my user talk page. Thank you for helping me! [[User:ThinkingScience|ThinkingScience]] ([[User talk:ThinkingScience|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ThinkingScience|contribs]]) 21:20, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
::Today I woke up with not only thinking about supplying questions along with the &quot;idea&quot; but also answers. ie. Is it possible to &quot;test&quot; this idea? Is it possible to create one or multiple hypotheses based on this &quot;idea&quot;?(etc.) I've thought about this before in this &quot;idea&quot; but since I'm beginning to add to Wikiversity what was previously 'locked in my mind' it's also easier for me to see what I've done so far. Thank you for this comment! [[User:ThinkingScience|ThinkingScience]] ([[User talk:ThinkingScience|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ThinkingScience|contribs]]) 09:11, 23 April 2026 (UTC)
:May I think that you should not add deadlines ; being read, and rising interest for collaboration, or even simply for exchange of thoughts, such an effective meeting event loads a huge bunch of unprobability, which time can help to… somehow diminish. Maybe, I would advice you having a central place for developping your ideas, your needs, your advances, maybe a page in your own user zone, and from time to time, depending your feeling, it could be every trimester or so, or more frequently, you could write a short account of progress (or even of no progress), or a call for participation, in such a place as this present one ; I think that will increase much exposure of your projet. Maybe also, if you can find a project name, not necessarily very meaningfull by itseilf (at least it will gain signification with time, as your project develops), that will serve as a kind-of hook, and make your announcement titles more visible. Best regards (and my excuses for my poor command of English, which seems to be unplease an anti-abuse filter, &quot;Questionable Language (profanity)&quot;, which I don't understand…). My few cents. --  [[User:Eric.LEWIN|Eric.LEWIN]] ([[User talk:Eric.LEWIN|discussion]] • [[Special:Contributions/Eric.LEWIN|contributions]]) 10:06, 17 April 2026 (UTC)
::Sorry about the false positive on the profanity filter - I've fixed it. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 10:26, 17 April 2026 (UTC)
:::&quot;May I think that you should not add deadlines ; being read, and rising interest for collaboration, or even simply for exchange of thoughts, such an effective meeting event loads a huge bunch of unprobability, which time can help to… somehow diminish.&quot;
::Thank you Eric for this comment. Trust in time is how I interpret it. I should not feel like I need to be in a hurry. I'll try to give this time. Thank you!
:::&quot;Maybe, I would advice you having a central place for developping your ideas, your needs, your advances, maybe a page in your own user zone, and from time to time, depending your feeling, it could be every trimester or so, or more frequently, you could write a short account of progress (or even of no progress), or a call for participation, in such a place as this present one ; I think that will increase much exposure of your projet.&quot;
::A central place for developing or making &quot;project notes&quot; regarding the Neurodiversity idea on my userspace, I might need that, like a diary or &quot;project notes&quot; of the Neurodiversity idea similar to my course notes regarding my experience with Coursera.
::Any actions I take are going to be related to my Userspace from now on but I'll also update the draft when necessary. Now in the beginning I might be working daily to once every 3 days on both the draft and the daily notes I plan to make.
:::&quot;Maybe also, if you can find a project name, not necessarily very meaningfull by itseilf (at least it will gain signification with time, as your project develops), that will serve as a kind-of hook, and make your announcement titles more visible.&quot;
::Thank you for the advice. I was brainstorming yesterday about it. I concluded that since I've not yet developed a methodology that adheres to &quot;Do no harm&quot; and this is my first time working my &quot;idea&quot; into a way that is compatible with how projects develop on English Wikiversity this is new to me. My methodology isn't developed and therefore trying to get attention to my project through a name can wait. Yesterday I figured out a silly title that has nothing to do with the project: &quot;Planetary Awareness Potato Cabbage Rolls&quot; or something like that. Google output read that no such thing exists so I wanted it mainly to be unique. I don't want to raise attention that I'm unsure whether I'll actually be capable of developing a methodology for but project notes is my best bet so far in tracking my progress. Every day I think about this &quot;idea&quot; but I need to improve the important parts.
:::&quot;Best regards (and my excuses for my poor command of English, which seems to be unplease an anti-abuse filter, &quot;Questionable Language (profanity)&quot;, which I don't understand…). My few cents.&quot;
::You added great points and I felt that I was helped by you! I encourage you to post again and I can understand that interacting with any kind of automated filter can be discouraging and can be for me too! Thank you for giving me feedback! [[User:ThinkingScience|ThinkingScience]] ([[User talk:ThinkingScience|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ThinkingScience|contribs]]) 16:01, 18 April 2026 (UTC)

== Add some user rights to the curator user group? ==

By default, only custodians have the ability to mark new pages as patrolled (&lt;code&gt;patrol&lt;/code&gt;) and have their own page creations automatically marked as patrolled (&lt;code&gt;autopatrol&lt;/code&gt;). I am proposing both of the following:
* Curators can mark new pages as patrolled, helping on reducing the backlog of new, unpatrolled pages.
* New pages made by curators will be automatically marked as patrolled by the MediaWiki software.
Before we implement this, I would suggest implementing a proposed guideline for marking new pages as patrolled for curators and custodians.

Thoughts? [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 16:32, 17 April 2026 (UTC)

:Agree, &lt;s&gt;also can we also allow curators to undelete pages since they already have the rights to delete them?&lt;/s&gt; [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 02:54, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
::I think the requirement that undelete NOT be included came from above (meta / stewards / central office). Having access to the undelete page gives access to information that is restricted by their policies to admins (custodians and bureaucrats). -- [[User:Dave Braunschweig|Dave Braunschweig]] ([[User talk:Dave Braunschweig|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dave Braunschweig|contribs]]) 20:12, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
::: [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]], unless if requests for curator and custodian should be RfA-like processes (that is, including voting and comments), then I have to agree with Dave above. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 22:03, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
::::Oh, I didn’t realise that. Withdrawing my comment.. [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 00:08, 19 April 2026 (UTC)
:{{support}} Seems reasonable and would reduce overhead. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 14:35, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
:'''Agree''', implement it also to [[Wikiversity:Curators]] proposal please. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 17:11, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
: I went ahead and filed [[phab:T424445]]. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 15:39, 26 April 2026 (UTC)

== [[Wikiversity:Curators|Curators and curators policy]] ==
{{archive top|There is strong consensus, so [[Wikiversity:Curators]] is now a policy. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 11:15, 9 May 2026 (UTC)}}
How does it come, that Wikiversity has curators, but Curators policy is still being proposed? How do the curators exists and act if the policy about them havent been approved yet? [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 18:33, 16 October 2025 (UTC)

:It looks as if it is not just curators. The policy on Bureaucratship is still being proposed as well. See [[Wikiversity:Bureaucratship]]. —[[User:RailwayEnthusiast2025|&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Verdana; color:#008000; text-shadow:gray 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em;&quot;&gt;RailwayEnthusiast2025&lt;/span&gt;]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:RailwayEnthusiast2025|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#59a53f&quot;&gt;''talk with me!''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 18:33, 27 October 2025 (UTC)

:I think its just the nature of a small WMF sister project in that there are lots of drafts, gaps, and potential improvements. In this case, these community would need to vote on those proposed Wikiversity staff policies if we think they're ready. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 02:08, 3 December 2025 (UTC)
:What? I thought you were getting it approved, Juandev... :) [[User:I&amp;#39;m Mr. Chris|I&amp;#39;m Mr. Chris]] ([[User talk:I&amp;#39;m Mr. Chris|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/I&amp;#39;m Mr. Chris|contribs]]) 14:20, 12 February 2026 (UTC)
::Yeah I think this one is important too and we need to aprove it too @[[User:I'm Mr. Chris|I'm Mr. Chris]]. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 15:56, 12 February 2026 (UTC)
:::I thinks its ready to made into a policy, it seems to be complete and informative about what the rights does and how to get it. [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 03:08, 15 February 2026 (UTC)
::::Agree -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 11:00, 27 March 2026 (UTC)

Let's make this the official discussion about adopting the [[Wikiversity:Curators|curators policy]] policy. Your comments are invited and welcome. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 08:40, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
: There were two similar Colloquium threads in separate places about the proposed curators policy. So I've moved them to be adjacent. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 12:42, 1 May 2026 (UTC)
{{archive bottom}}

== Wikiversity:Curators to become a policy ==
{{archive top|There is strong consensus, so [[Wikiversity:Curators]] is now a policy. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 11:16, 9 May 2026 (UTC)}}
I've looked at the discussions about the Curators policy, I've looked at the practices, and it seems to me that there is no dispute about the wording of the policy, and what's more, the community has been using this proposal as if it were an offical policy for several years. Therefore, I propose that [[Wikiversity:Curators]] become a policy. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 18:35, 18 April 2026 (UTC)

:{{support}} —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 18:54, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
:{{support}} —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 20:21, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
: {{support|Yes, please}}. Especially after when I and PieWriter proposed above, I agree. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 14:27, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
:: @[[User:Juandev|Juandev]]; as of now, curators now have the user rights &lt;code&gt;autopatrol&lt;/code&gt; and &lt;code&gt;patrol&lt;/code&gt;. Perhaps we should also include that in [[Wikiversity:Custodianship]]? [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 12:07, 30 April 2026 (UTC)
:::You meant [[Wikiversity:Curators]] @[[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]]? [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 12:15, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
:::: I agree that we must develop what rules curators should follow when marking new pages as patrolled; the same can be added for custodians since they can also mark new pages as patrolled. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 13:37, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
:::::I see, well I think you can just add this to the policy. It is not major change and it probably reflects actual practice or actual technical possibilities for those flags. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 09:20, 7 May 2026 (UTC)
:{{support}} -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 12:42, 1 May 2026 (UTC)
:{{Support}} per nom. [[User:PhilDaBirdMan|PhilDaBirdMan]] ([[User talk:PhilDaBirdMan|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PhilDaBirdMan|contribs]]) 13:32, 1 May 2026 (UTC)
{{Archive bottom}}

== Inactive curators ==

Hello, even though [[Wikiversity:Curators]] is not a policy yet, there are curators listed here that have been inactive for two years or more:
* {{user|Cody naccarato}} (last edit on 13 Dec 2022, last logged action on 10 Dec 2022)
* {{user|Praxidicae}} (last edit on 10 Sep 2022, last logged action on 12 Sep 2022)
[[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 21:14, 19 April 2026 (UTC)

:Yup, I would remove the rights. To get the rights back if theyll come back should not be a big deal. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 20:08, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
:: When they don't reply by May 19, feel free (or any custodian) to do so. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 00:28, 25 April 2026 (UTC)

== Is anyone interested in Neurodiversity? ==

Is anyone interested in Neurodiversity? Is there anyone here who is interested for Neurodiversity to be &quot;something more&quot; than it already is? Does anyone here consider Neurodiversity one of the &quot;harder topics&quot; to work on or discuss? Does anyone here have an opinion about the [[Neurodiversity Movement]]? So these questions don't appear like &quot;out of a vacuum&quot; I can tell you a bit about my background:

Many years ago I got a psychiatric diagnosis &quot;Asperger's&quot;. After I stepped out of the office and my Äsperger's was 'concluded', I stepped out into the street and thought my first negative thought(but the positive thought followed after). The thought was about concentration camps in the second world war and that the world seemed to be going into the direction of &quot;labeling others&quot;. I was unsure whether this was &quot;real science&quot; and sort of &quot;challenged myself&quot; to make up my own mind after meeting people that had been given this diagnosis. The more adults with this diagnosis I met the more I started seeing &quot;patterns&quot;.

Was it a coincidence that the first person with Asperger's I met reminded me about my father later after I had plenty of times of experience with interacting with him? None of the people I interacted with online through IRC text chat...I felt I got any clue about how &quot;their brains work&quot;. Only when I met one person from the Asperger's chat community in person we both realized that whatever we experienced was akin to the &quot;chaos theory&quot;. He told me about &quot;chaos theory&quot; while I didn't know even what that term meant but I guess I 'read between the lines'. My question that I linger on still today is &quot;did he understand about me what I think I understood about him?&quot;? That our brains had the same configuration? Most autistic adults who meet other autistic adults usually get disappointed. They think the diagnosis will help them meet somebody like themselves and then they realize the great diversity in the autistic spectrum created by Psychiatry.

I later stopped interacting with autistic communities that much, I felt that it did not benefit me. Also Neurodiversity's &quot;neurotypes&quot; interested me for a while until I realized I had &quot;misunderstood everything&quot; about them and how they are used in the Neurodiversity Movement or &quot;Neurodiversity community&quot; if that even can precisely be defined? I doubt it but if you want to contribute to the [[Neurodiversity Movement]]. My previous attempts failed as I got more and more confused. I think a community project needs a community. With a lack of that I don't think it is worth my time. If any of you would like to work on that project let me know on my talk page.

So I was kinda lost and was talking to my friend and psychologist and I realized if I never talk about my idea to anyone in a &quot;comprehensive way&quot; or show that it matters to me nothing is going to ever happen. So I started talking about my &quot;idea&quot; more. Nobody could understand the &quot;idea&quot; because I had not developed my skills regarding where to start...although the process had already started &quot;automatically&quot; and that's why I often think of &quot;well my brain sort of activated me&quot;. I don't feel like I did have a plan and this idea happened. It happened &quot;by itself&quot;. My brain reacted to what I was seeing in a video or stream.

I value interaction highly in this idea. I think it would be helpful to make a community of people who are not paranoid about stuff that can express itself like &quot;don't analyze me!&quot;, &quot;don't compare me to anyone!&quot;. 

On the contrary, more often than not those adults who were diagnosed were actually openly comparing themselves with each other and I think that is healthy in a &quot;science&quot; way if done the &quot;right way&quot; which probably means &quot;Do no harm&quot;.

I found video material is important but I'm very unsure if uploading own video material to Wikimedia Commons would constitute a &quot;reasonable&quot; use of the resources there. Maybe somebody here needs to ask more questions to me that I should answer before that happens. I also know the '''be bold''' so I could just do what I think might be ok. Though I work better in a group as long as I know what &quot;group configurations&quot; help me. This is in a non-profit way. Since the state supported me this might be a way I am trying to &quot;give back&quot; to the state and &quot;the world&quot;. May seem overly ambitious and crazy but this thing gives me energy. It gives me hope when trying to develop this idea. [[User:ThinkingScience|ThinkingScience]] ([[User talk:ThinkingScience|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ThinkingScience|contribs]]) 10:47, 23 April 2026 (UTC)

:Thanks for sharing. There is plenty of room for neurodiversity community learning. However, the challenge I think is that the intersection of those interested in (a) ND, and (b) English Wikiversity might be very small (e.g., 1!) at this point in time.
:But don't give up hope. For example, Wikipedia has many more ND-interested editors; maybe consider reaching out to see who might be interested:
:[[w:Category:Wikipedians interested in neurodiversity]]
:You could also start an equivalent category here:
:[[:Category:Wikiversitarians interested in neurodiversity]] -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 04:46, 6 May 2026 (UTC)

== Request for comment (global AI policy) ==

&lt;bdi lang=&quot;en&quot; dir=&quot;ltr&quot; class=&quot;mw-content-ltr&quot;&gt;A [[:m:Requests for comment/Artificial intelligence policy|request for comment]] is currently being held to decide on a global AI policy. {{int:Feedback-thanks-title}} [[User:MediaWiki message delivery|MediaWiki message delivery]] ([[User talk:MediaWiki message delivery|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/MediaWiki message delivery|contribs]]) 00:58, 26 April 2026 (UTC)&lt;/bdi&gt;
&lt;!-- Message sent by User:Codename Noreste@metawiki using the list at https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Distribution_list/Global_message_delivery&amp;oldid=30424282 --&gt;

== Coming over From wikinews ==

Any chance someone could help me if you are allowed to write news articles here since wikinews is going read only mode soon, thank you! [[User:BigKrow|BigKrow]] ([[User talk:BigKrow|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/BigKrow|contribs]]) 22:43, 1 May 2026 (UTC)

:The scope of Wikiversity is very broad and is basically about more-or-less any learning material. We have made it a point to not have duplicative content of other WMF projects, but since Wikinews is being shuttered, I personally am fine with writing news articles here. One thing that is not controversial at all is a learning resource &lt;em&gt;about&lt;/em&gt; how to write news: that could be hugely useful here and could involve the process of writing news stories to learn and to share back and forth with an editor or fact-checker. In fact, I'd support an entire namespace dedicated to keeping the notion of Wikinews alive here. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 23:38, 1 May 2026 (UTC)
::Thank you so much! How do I start? Cheers! @[[User:Koavf|Koavf]] [[User:BigKrow|BigKrow]] ([[User talk:BigKrow|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/BigKrow|contribs]]) 01:07, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
:::I think it's premature to start just making news articles en masse, but if you want to start discussing the topic of citizen journalism, you can do that now. [[:Category:Journalism]] already has some material, so you can start by seeing what we already have, how you can refine that, etc. You can definitely have learning resources with collaborators who want to learn about journalism ASAP. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 01:24, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
::::thanks. [[User:BigKrow|BigKrow]] ([[User talk:BigKrow|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/BigKrow|contribs]]) 01:38, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
::::If I could try and start one News Article could you please tell me how to go about it? Like what style of writing like Wikinews or something else? Thank you Justin! @[[User:Koavf|Koavf]] [[User:BigKrow|BigKrow]] ([[User talk:BigKrow|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/BigKrow|contribs]]) 01:48, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
:::::Honestly, there are very few policies and guidelines here. I think the best way to write a news story would be in a manner that is obvious and instructive. So, for instance, it's common to use the &quot;pyramid style&quot; when you're writing news, so if you were to write a story that makes it very clear that you are using that approach, that would be helpful. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 02:08, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
::::::cool thanks. [[User:BigKrow|BigKrow]] ([[User talk:BigKrow|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/BigKrow|contribs]]) 02:13, 2 May 2026 (UTC)

== Language learning  ==

toki! I am trying to add or see what the toki pona language learning stuff on here is but I don't see anything that is language learning for anything. [[User:Jan Imon|Jan Imon]] ([[User talk:Jan Imon|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Jan Imon|contribs]]) 23:13, 2 May 2026 (UTC) —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 17:29, 3 May 2026 (UTC)

:We have language materials ([[:Category:Languages]], [[World Languages]], [[Portal:Foreign Language Learning]], [[Portal:Multilingual Studies]]). They are not as developed as I think we would all like and there's not any coverage of Toki Pona, but in principle, we could and would like that. You can also see [[:b:Subject:Languages]] at our sister project Wikibooks. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 17:33, 3 May 2026 (UTC)

== Timeline format? ==

I’ve been working on the World War II articles, including the [[World War II/Timeline|timeline]], and is there a specific timeline format that should be used? Right now it’s just a table, and there’s no separation between different periods/phases of the war.

I don’t want to use [[mw:Extension:EasyTimeline]] because this will be displaying dates and not time periods. [[User:PhilDaBirdMan|PhilDaBirdMan]] ([[User talk:PhilDaBirdMan|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PhilDaBirdMan|contribs]]) 01:35, 4 May 2026 (UTC)

:I dont think we have a policy or guideline, how to format a timeline. But you may try to browes wikiversity by Google if someone was dealing with this in the past somewhow @[[User:PhilDaBirdMan|PhilDaBirdMan]]. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 12:23, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
::+1 - there's no specific guideline on how to format a timeline, it's really up to you. In my opinion I think the timeline is good. I'd personally bold the dates just to make it easier to separate it from the event description, but that's my personal 2 cents. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 14:18, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
:::I’ll probably remove links to the dates/years, they’re just Wikipedia pages that shouldn’t be over linked to. [[User:PhilDaBirdMan|PhilDaBirdMan]] ([[User talk:PhilDaBirdMan|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PhilDaBirdMan|contribs]]) 00:39, 6 May 2026 (UTC)

== Interface administrator for Codename Noreste ==

Hello, everyone. I am requesting interface administrator access on this wiki.

The main reasoning is that I would benefit from having the user right &lt;code&gt;editinterface&lt;/code&gt;, which would allow me to make dark mode changes to pages in the MediaWiki namespace, add &lt;code&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;&lt;div class=&quot;mw-parser-output&quot;&gt;&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/code&gt; to some interface pages using templates, handle interface-protected edit requests, and similar stuff. Additionally, I have some knowledge of CSS, and I would like to assist with modifying CSS pages whenever necessary, such as moving MediaWiki common.css code to TemplateStyles CSS pages.

I am requesting the maximum time that is allowed per the [[Wikiversity:Interface administrators|policy]], and I have 2FA enabled on my account. Thank you. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 00:55, 6 May 2026 (UTC)

*{{support}} Globally trusted user. ―[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:black&quot;&gt;v&lt;/span&gt;f&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 01:07, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
*{{support}} Trusted and knowledgeable. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 04:35, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
*{{support}} WV would benefit from this. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 08:32, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
*{{support}} --[[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 09:13, 7 May 2026 (UTC)

:{{Comment}} Could @[[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] delete [[MediaWiki:Gadget-WikiSign.js]], which was requested to be deleted @[[User:Koavf|Justin]], @[[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]], @[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]]? I dont think we need it. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 07:40, 9 May 2026 (UTC)
::Yes - clearly no longer used -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 10:18, 9 May 2026 (UTC)
::: I can't delete it because I don't have the required permissions to do so.
::: On a side note, if this project has a need for permanent interface administrators, I would suggest that we either have two or none at all, similar to CUs and suppressors. Maybe Koavf can be a good candidate if I am elected for permanent administrator, and I believe the IA permission shouldn't be removed from own account. Instead, a bureaucrat should do it. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 13:20, 9 May 2026 (UTC)</text>
      <sha1>0nsstnp4m11hfr2sjpylosfitf3ynzr</sha1>
    </revision>
    <revision>
      <id>2808039</id>
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      <timestamp>2026-05-09T13:21:41Z</timestamp>
      <contributor>
        <username>Codename Noreste</username>
        <id>2969951</id>
      </contributor>
      <minor />
      <comment>/* Interface administrator for Codename Noreste */ edit reply to Jtneill ([[mw:c:Special:MyLanguage/User:JWBTH/CD|CD]])</comment>
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      <text bytes="78159" sha1="4ohetn206bncspx4adbdrs0dynfxqjr" xml:space="preserve">{{Wikiversity:Colloquium/Header}}
&lt;!-- MESSAGES GO BELOW --&gt;
== Requested update to [[Wikiversity:Interface administrators]] ==

Currently, [[Wikiversity:Interface administrators]] is a policy that includes a caveat that interface admins are not required long-term and that user right can only be added for a period of up to two weeks. I am proposing that we remove this qualification and allow for indefinite interface admin status. I think this is useful because there are reasons for tweaking the site CSS or JavaScript (e.g. to comply with dark mode), add gadgets (e.g. importing Cat-a-Lot, which I would like to do), or otherwise modifying the site that could plausibly come up on an irregular basis and requiring the overhead of a bureaucrat to add the user rights is inefficient. In particular, I am also going to request this right if the community accepts indefinite interface admins. Thoughts? —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 23:23, 17 August 2025 (UTC)

:And who will then monitor them to make sure they don't damage the project in any way, or abuse the rights acquired in this way? For large projects, this might not be a problem, but for smaller projects like the English Wikiversity, I'm not sure if there are enough users who would say, something is happening here that shouldn't be happening. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 10:28, 20 August 2025 (UTC)
::Anyone would be who. This argument applies to any person with any advanced rights here. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 10:46, 20 August 2025 (UTC)
:I think it is reasonable to allow for longer periods of access than 2 weeks to interface admin and support adjusting the policy to allow for this flexibility. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 04:57, 2 December 2025 (UTC)
::+1 —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 16:38, 25 January 2026 (UTC)
:@[[User:Koavf|Koavf]] I agree that the two-week requirement could be revised, but wouldn’t people just request access for a specific purpose anyway? Instead of granting indefinite access, they should request the specific time frame they need the rights for—until the planned fixes are completed—and then request an extension if more time is required. We could remove the two-week criterion while still keeping the access explicitly temporary. [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 02:48, 25 January 2026 (UTC)
::I just don't see why this wiki needs to be different than all of the others. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 07:18, 25 January 2026 (UTC)
:::There isn’t really much of a need for a permanent one at this point in time [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 09:53, 25 January 2026 (UTC)
:I quite agree with this proposal, so long as they perform the suggested changes as mentioned here. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 04:06, 26 January 2026 (UTC)
:: Just to clarify, I support '''indefinite interface admin status'''. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 18:34, 13 April 2026 (UTC)
:I think there is decent consensus for lengthening this, but not necessarily for indefinite permissions, so does anyone object to me revising it to the standard being 120 days instead of two weeks? I'll check back on this thread in three weeks and if there's no objection, I'll make the change. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 20:47, 13 April 2026 (UTC)
::Sure [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 23:27, 13 April 2026 (UTC)
::Thanks for proposing this, Justin. I agree with the proposal to lengthen the interface admin period from 2 weeks but not indefinitely. Can I check the source(s) for the standard being 120 days (I'm guessing policies on other projects or maybe global policy?)? In any case, I think it is reasonable for us to adopt a similar period. However, note on the current policy discussion page notes from @[[User:Dave Braunschweig|Dave Braunschweig]] arguing for shorter periods to lower risk, that's why it is 2 weeks. But if there are projects that need longer access, that should also be accommodated. Maybe we could adjust the policy to specify that ''interface admin rights can be given for 14 to 120 days depending on how long is required and what is supported by the community''. Sincerely, James -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 08:29, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
:::There was there was no source for 120: it was just more than 14 and less than infinity. The &quot;14 to 120&quot; also seems reasonable. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 14:33, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
::: On some small/medium-sized wikis, such as English Wikibooks and English Wikiquote for example, indefinite interface administrator access for administrators is allowed, but they tend not to make changes to the CSS and JS page changes unless it's truly necessary. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 14:34, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
:::It's a good idea to make the length of this right on request or allow to be prolonged. However, IA should test large changes somewhere else, for example on the en.wv mirror, and only after testing it on the mirror, adapt it to the live version. That means I can't imagine a time-consuming operation right now. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 20:04, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
::::Sorry, what mirror is this? Are you talking about beta.wv? —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 20:32, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
:::::Not beta.wv. Basically somewhere else then on a live wiki. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 20:59, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
:::::: Wouldn't testing on a user's own common.css page work anyway? [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 21:36, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
:Change made here: https://en.wikiversity.org/w/index.php?title=Wikiversity%3AInterface_administrators&amp;diff=2807543&amp;oldid=2806289 —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 13:35, 4 May 2026 (UTC)

== [[Template:AI-generated]] ==

After going through the plethora of ChatGPT-generated pages made by [[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]] (with many more pages to go), I'd like community input on this proposal to [[Wikiversity:Artificial intelligence]] that I think would be benefical for the community:
*Resources generated by AI '''must''' be indicated as so through the project box, [[Template:AI-generated]], on either the page or the main resource (if the page is a part of a project).
I do not believe including a small note/reference that a page is AI-generated is sufficient, and I take my thinking from [[WV:Original research|Wikiversity's OR policy]] for OR work: ''Within Wikiversity, all original research should be clearly identified as such''. I believe resources created from AI should also be clearly indicated as such, especially since we are working on whether or not AI-generated resources should be allowed on the website (discussion is [[Wikiversity talk:Artificial intelligence|here]], for reference). This makes it easier for organizational purposes, and in the event ''if'' we ban AI-generated work. 

I've left a message on Lee's talk page over a week ago and did not get a response or acknowledgement, so I'd like for the community's input for this inclusion to the policy. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 15:53, 26 January 2026 (UTC)

:I believe that existing Wikiversity policies are sufficient. Authors are responsible for the accuracy and usefulness of the content that is published. This policy covers AI-generated content that is: 1) carefully reviewed by the author publishing it, and 2) the source is noted.   [[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]] ([[User talk:Lbeaumont|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Lbeaumont|contribs]]) 19:38, 27 January 2026 (UTC)
::A small reference for pages that are substantially filled with Chat-GPT entries, like [[Real Good Religion]], [[Attributing Blame]], [[Fostering Curiosity]], are not sufficient IMO and a project box would be the best indicator that a page is AI-generated (especially when there is a mixture of human created content AND AI-generated content, as present in a lot of your pages). This is useful, especially considering the notable issues with AI (including hallucinations and fabrication of details), so viewers and support staff are aware. These small notes left on the pages are not as easily viewable as a project box or banner would be. I really don't see the issue with a clear-label guideline. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 22:34, 27 January 2026 (UTC)
::{{ping|Lbeaumont}} I noticed your reversions [https://en.wikiversity.org/w/index.php?title=Exploring_Existential_Concerns&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2788278 here] &amp; [https://en.wikiversity.org/w/index.php?title=Subjective_Awareness&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2788257 here]. I'd prefer to have a clean conversation regarding this proposition. Please voice your concerns here. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 15:53, 28 January 2026 (UTC)
:::Regarding Subjective Awareness, I distinctly recall the effort I went to to write that the old-fashioned way. It is true that ChatGPT assisted me in augmenting the list of words suggested as candidate subjective states. This is a small section of the course, is clearly marked, and makes no factual claim. Marking the entire course as AI-generated is misleading. I would have made these comments when I reverted your edit; however, the revert button does not provide that opportunity.
:::Regarding the Exploring Existential Concerns course, please note this was adapted from my EmotionalCompetency.com website, which predates the availability of LLMs. The course does include two links, clearly labeled as ChatGPT-generated. Again, marking the entire course as AI-generated is misleading.
:::On a broader issue, I don't consider your opinions to have established a carefully debated and adopted Wikiversity policy. You went ahead and modified many of my courses over my clearly stated objections. Please let this issue play out more completely before editing my courses further. Thanks.   [[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]] ([[User talk:Lbeaumont|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Lbeaumont|contribs]]) 15:11, 29 January 2026 (UTC)
::::Understood, and I respect your position. I apologize if my edits were seen as overarching. We could change the project box to &quot;a portion of this resource was generated by AI&quot;, or something along those lines. Feel free to revert my changes where you see fit, and I encourage more users to provide their input. EDIT: I've made changes to the template to indicate that a portion of the content has been generated from an LLM. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 15:50, 29 January 2026 (UTC)
:::::Thanks for this reply. The new banner is unduly large and alarming. There is no need for alarm here. The use of AI is not harmful per se. Like any technology, it can be used to help or to harm. I take care to craft prompts carefully, point the LMM to reliable source materials, and to carefully read and verify the generated text before I publish it. This is all in keeping with long-established Wikiversity policy. We don't want to use a  [[w:One-drop_rule|one-drop rule]] here or cause a [[w:Satanic_panic|satanic panic]]. We can learn our lessons from history here. I don't see any pedagogical reason for establishing a classification of &quot;AI generated&quot;, but if there is a consensus that it is needed, perhaps it can be handled as just another category that learning resources can be assigned to. I would rather focus on identifying any errors in factual claims than on casting pejorative bias toward AI-generated content. An essay on the best practices for using LMM on Wikiveristy would be welcome.   [[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]] ([[User talk:Lbeaumont|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Lbeaumont|contribs]]) 15:58, 30 January 2026 (UTC)
::::::The new banner mimics the banner that is available on the English Wikibooks (see [[b:Template:AI-generated]] &amp; [[b:Template:Uses AI]]), so my revisions aren't unique in this aspect. At this point, I'd welcome other peoples' inputs. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 19:40, 30 January 2026 (UTC)

== How do I start making pages? ==
Is there a notability guideline for Wikiversity? What is the sourcing policy for information? What is the Manual of Style? What kind of educational content qualifies for Wikiversity? All the introduction pages are a bit unclear. 
[[User:VidanaliK|VidanaliK]] ([[User talk:VidanaliK|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/VidanaliK|contribs]]) 02:25, 28 January 2026 (UTC)

:{{ping|VidanaliK}} Welcome to Wikiversity! I've left you a welcome message on your talk page. That should help you out. Make sure to especially look at [[Wikiversity:Introduction]]. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 03:11, 28 January 2026 (UTC)
::It says that I can't post more pages because I have apparently exceeded the new page limit. How long does it take before that new page limit expires? [[User:VidanaliK|VidanaliK]] ([[User talk:VidanaliK|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/VidanaliK|contribs]]) 16:57, 28 January 2026 (UTC)
:::This is a restriction for new users so that Wikiversity is not hit with massive spam. As for when this limit will expire, it should be a few days or after a certain number of edits. It's easy to overcome, though I do not have the exact numbers atm. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 15:08, 29 January 2026 (UTC)
::::OK, I think I got past the limit. [[User:VidanaliK|VidanaliK]] ([[User talk:VidanaliK|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/VidanaliK|contribs]]) 17:21, 29 January 2026 (UTC)
==Why does it feel like Wikiversity is no longer really active anymore?==
I've been looking at recent changes, and both today and yesterday there haven't been many changes that I haven't made; it feels like walking through a ghost town, is this just me or is Wikiversity not really active anymore? [[User:VidanaliK|VidanaliK]] ([[User talk:VidanaliK|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/VidanaliK|contribs]]) 03:54, 30 January 2026 (UTC)

:There is fewer people editing these days compared to the past. Many newcomers tend to edit in Wikipedia instead. [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 06:39, 30 January 2026 (UTC)
:It’s a little slow, but I’m happy to know that Wikiversity is a place that I think should provide value even if the activity of editors fluctuates. If it’s any consolation your edits may be encouraging for some anonymous newcomer to start edits on their own! I think it’s hard to build community when there is such a wide variety of interests and a smaller starting userbase. Also sometimes the getting into a particular topic that already exists can be intimidating because some relics (large portals, school, categories, etc.) have intricate, unique and generally messy levels of organization. [[User:IanVG|IanVG]] ([[User talk:IanVG|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/IanVG|contribs]]) 22:16, 9 March 2026 (UTC)
:I'd say it comes down to working hard for Wikiversity, basically if somebody or a group of people will start presenting good ideas and they turn out to be provably stable.
:I even asked Google's &quot;AI Mode&quot;, what is Wikiversity famous for? Unfortunately it could not answer that.
:Simply, we have not made Wikiversity famous by presenting really provable stable ideas yet. My hope is that this time might come. Perhaps even this year 2026!
:Hope dies last. [[User:ThinkingScience|ThinkingScience]] ([[User talk:ThinkingScience|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ThinkingScience|contribs]]) 10:12, 27 April 2026 (UTC)

== Inactivity policy for Curators ==

I was wondering if there is a specific inactivity polity for curators (semi-admins) as I am pretty sure the global policy does not apply to them as they are not ''fully'' sysops. [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 03:20, 15 February 2026 (UTC)

:Unfortunately, I don't see an inactivity policy, but if we were to create such a new policy for curators, it should be the same for custodians (administrators). [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 18:45, 15 February 2026 (UTC)
::@[[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] There is currently none, that I could find, for custodians either. [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 00:47, 17 February 2026 (UTC)
:::I think we should propose a local inactivity policy for custodians (and by extension, curators), which should be at least one year without any edits ''and'' logged actions. However, I don't know which page should it be when the inactivity removal procedure starts. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 00:53, 17 February 2026 (UTC)
::::@[[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] In theory, there should be a section added at [[WV:Candidates for custodianship]] [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 00:55, 17 February 2026 (UTC)
::::: To be consistent with the [[meta:Admin activity review|global period of 2 years inactivity]] for en.wv  [[Wikiversity:Custodianship#Notes|Custodians]] and [[Wikiversity:Bureaucratship#How are bureaucrats removed?|Bureaucrats]] we could add something like this to [[Wikiversity:Curators]]:
::::::The maximum time period of inactivity &lt;u&gt;without community review&lt;/u&gt; for curators is two years (consistent with  the [[:meta:Category:Global policies|global policy]] described at [[meta:Admin activity review|Admin activity review]] which applies for [[Wikiversity:Custodianship#Notes|Custodians]] and [[Wikiversity:Bureaucratship|Bureaucrats]]). After that time a custodian will remove the rights.
::::: -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 10:51, 27 March 2026 (UTC)
:::::Yup, I agree with Jtneill, there is a policy proposal for Wikiversity:Curators, where it should be logically deployed. The question is if we are ready to aprove the policy. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 17:43, 17 April 2026 (UTC)
:::::: I agree, but we should notify the colloquium about inactive curators, just like a steward would do for inactive custodians and bureaucrats per [[:m:Admin activity review|AAR]]. What is the minimum timeframe an inactive curator should receive so they can respond they would keep their rights? [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 17:49, 17 April 2026 (UTC)
:I incorporated these suggestions into the proposed curators policy. Please review/comment/improve. Summary: 2 years, notify curator's user page, then remove rights after 1 month: [[Wikiversity:Curators#Inactivity]]. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 08:59, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
:: @[[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] I created [[Template:Inactive curator]] for this. Feel free to make any changes or improvements. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 14:29, 24 April 2026 (UTC)

== [[Wikiversity:Artificial intelligence]] to become an official policy ==
{{Archive top|After running for a week, there is consensus, alongside comments, for [[Wikiversity:Artificial intelligence]] to be implemented as an official policy. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 23:27, 17 April 2026 (UTC)}}
With the introduction of AI-material, and some material just plain disruptive, its imperative that Wikiversity catches up with its sister projects and implements an official AI policy that we can work with. The recent issue of [[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]]'s 50+ articles that contain significantly large AI-generated material has made me came to the Colloquium. This user has also been removing the [[Template:AI-generated]] template from their pages, calling it &quot;misleading&quot;, &quot;alarmist&quot;, and &quot;pejorative&quot; - which is all just simply nonsensical rationales. Not to even mention this user's contributions to the English Wikipedia have been [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Inner_Development_Goals contested] and [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Multipolar_trap removed] a couple of times (for being low-quality and clearly LLM-generated), highlighting the need for an actual policy to be implemented here on Wikiversity. I would like to ping {{ping|Juandev}} and {{ping|Jtneill}} for their thoughts as well, since I'd like this to be implemented as soon as possible. 

Wikiversity has a significant issue with implementing anti-disruptive measures, hence why we have received numerous complaints as a community about our quality. I originally was reverting the removal of the templates, but realized that this is still a proposed policy, which it shouldn't be anymore. It should be a recognized Wikiversity policy. 14:54, 10 March 2026 (UTC) —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 14:54, 10 March 2026 (UTC)

:@[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] '''I agree''' that the draft, should become official policy. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 17:00, 10 March 2026 (UTC)
:I provided a detailed response at: [[Wikiversity talk:Artificial intelligence#Evolving a Wikiversity policy on AI]]
:I will appreaciate it if you consder that carefully. [[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]] ([[User talk:Lbeaumont|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Lbeaumont|contribs]]) 22:49, 10 March 2026 (UTC)
:Agree it should become official Wikiversity policy on the condition &lt;u&gt;that point point 5 is about [significant/substantial] LLM-generated text specifically&lt;/u&gt;. Not a good idea to overuse it, it should be added when there is substantial AI-generated text on the page, not for other cases. [[User:Prototyperspective|Prototyperspective]] ([[User talk:Prototyperspective|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Prototyperspective|contribs]]) 12:37, 11 March 2026 (UTC)
:What policy is being debated? Is it the text on this page, which is pointed to by the general banner, or the text at:   [[Wikiversity:Artificial intelligence|Wikiversity:Artificial intelligence,]]   which is pointed to by the specific banner? Let's begin with coherence on the text being debated. Thanks!  [[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]] ([[User talk:Lbeaumont|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Lbeaumont|contribs]]) 11:49, 17 March 2026 (UTC)
::@[[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]] This is a call for approval of the new Wikiversity policy. You expressed your opinion [[Wikiversity talk:Artificial intelligence#Evolving a Wikiversity policy on AI|on the talk page of the proposal]], I replied to you and await your response.When creating policies, it is necessary to propose specific solutions. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 14:12, 17 March 2026 (UTC)
:::Toward a Justified and Parsimonious AI Policy 
:::As we collaborate to develop a consensus policy on the use of Large Language Models, it is wise to begin by considering the needs of the various stakeholders to the policy.
:::The stakeholders are:
:::1)     The users, 
:::2)     The source providers, and
:::3)     The editors
:::There may also be others with a minor stake in this policy, including the population at large.
:::The many needs of the users are currently addressed by long-standing [[Wikiversity:Policies|Wikiversity policies]], so we can focus on what, if any, additional needs arise as LLMs are deployed. 
:::As always, users need assurance that propositional statements are accurate. This is covered by the existing policy on [[Wikiversity:Verifiability|verifiably]]. In addition, it is expected by both the users and those that provide materials used as sources for the text are [[Wikiversity:Cite sources|accurately attributed]]. This is also covered by [[Wikiversity:Cite sources|existing policies]].
:::To respect the time and effort of editors, a parsimonious policy will unburden editors from costly requirements that exceed benefits to the users.
:::Finally, it is important to recognize that because attention is our most valuable seizing attention unnecessarily is a form of theft. 
:::The following proposed policy statement results from these considerations:
:::Recommended Policy statement:
:::·       Editors [[Wikiversity:Verifiability|verify the accuracy]] of propositional statements, regardless of the source.
:::·       Editors [[Wikiversity:Cite sources|attribute the source]] of propositional statements. In the case of LLM, cite the LLM model and the prompt used.
:::·       Use of various available templates to mark the use of LLM are optional. Templates that are flexible in noting the type and extend of LLM usage are preferred. Templates that avoid unduly distracting or alarming the user are preferred. [[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]] ([[User talk:Lbeaumont|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Lbeaumont|contribs]]) 19:56, 19 March 2026 (UTC)
::::Do we discuss here or there? I have replied you there as your proposal is about that policy so it is tradition to discuss it at the affected talk page. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 21:59, 19 March 2026 (UTC)
: {{support}} Thanks for the proposed policy development and discussion; also note proposed policy talk page discussion: [[Wikiversity talk:Artificial intelligence]] -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 12:05, 24 March 2026 (UTC)
::I think the Wikiversity AI policy shall be official. – [[User:RestoreAccess111|RestoreAccess111]] &lt;sup style=&quot;font-family:Arimo, Arial;&quot;&gt;[[User talk:RestoreAccess111|Talk!]]&lt;/sup&gt; &lt;sup style=&quot;font-family:Times New Roman, Tinos;&quot;&gt;[[Special:Contributions/RestoreAccess111|Watch!]]&lt;/sup&gt; 06:11, 13 April 2026 (UTC)
{{archive bottom}}

== New titles for user right nominations ==
&lt;div class=&quot;cd-moveMark&quot;&gt;''Moved from [[Wikiversity talk:Candidates for Custodianship#New titles for user right nominations]].  [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 23:20, 17 April 2026 (UTC)''&lt;/div&gt;

I would like to propose the following retitles should a user be nominated for any of the following user rights:
* Curator: Candidates for Curatorship
* Bureaucrat: Candidates for Bureaucratship
The reason is that many curator (and probably bureaucrat) requests have run solely under {{tq|Candidates for Custodianship}}, but that title might sound misleading (especially in regards to the permission a user is requesting). CheckUser and Oversight (suppressor) are not included above since no user was nominated for these sensitive permissions, probably. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 01:30, 19 March 2026 (UTC)

:And it's not that when someone at the beginning misplaced the request, no one thought to move it and the others copied it. Even today, it would be possible to simply take it all and move it. Otherwise, for me, the more fundamental problem is that there is [[Wikiversity:Curators|no approved policy for curators]] than where the requests are based. Curators then operate in a certain vacuum and if one of them &quot;breaks out of the chain&quot;, the average user doesn't have many transparent tools to deal with it, because there is no policy. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 07:02, 19 March 2026 (UTC)
::I am not talking about the curator page (policy proposal). [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 19:08, 21 March 2026 (UTC)
: @[[User:Juandev|Juandev]] I'll see if I can do an overhaul of [[Wikiversity:Candidates for Custodianship]], just like I recently did with the Requests for adminship page on English Wikiquote. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 22:17, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
:Yes, great idea - ideally there will be separate &quot;Candidates for ...&quot; pages for each user right group. The most important for now is to separate curator and custodian pages as CN suggests. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 11:39, 1 May 2026 (UTC)
:So maybe I previously misunderstood. Are you proposing separated pages for nominations (i.e. [[Wikiversity:Candidates for Curatorship]], [[Wikiversity:Candidates for Bureaucratship]], [[Wikiversity:Candidates for Custodianship]])? [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 12:30, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
:: Yes. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 13:33, 5 May 2026 (UTC)

== Technical Request:  Courtesy link.. ==

[[Template_talk:Information#Background_must_have_color_defined_as_well]] [[User:ShakespeareFan00|ShakespeareFan00]] ([[User talk:ShakespeareFan00|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ShakespeareFan00|contribs]]) 11:43, 20 March 2026 (UTC)
: I can't edit the template directly as it need an sysop/interface admin to do it. [[User:ShakespeareFan00|ShakespeareFan00]] ([[User talk:ShakespeareFan00|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ShakespeareFan00|contribs]]) 11:43, 20 March 2026 (UTC)
:: Also if the Template field of - https://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Special:LintErrors/night-mode-unaware-background-color is examined, there is poential for an admin to clear a substantial proportion of these by implmenting a simmilar fix to the indciated templates (and underlying stylesheets). It would be nice to clear things like Project box and others, as many other templates (and thus pages depend on them.) :)
[[User:ShakespeareFan00|ShakespeareFan00]] ([[User talk:ShakespeareFan00|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ShakespeareFan00|contribs]]) 11:43, 20 March 2026 (UTC)

:I think it would be best to grant you interface admin rights for a short period of time to make these changes. However, I still have doubts about the suitability of this solution, which may cause other problems and no one has explained to me why dark mode has to be implemented this way @[[User:ShakespeareFan00|ShakespeareFan00]]. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 20:43, 20 March 2026 (UTC)

: I would have reservations about holding such rights, which is why I was trying to do what I could without needing them. However if it is the only way to get the required changes made, I would suggest asking on Wikipedia to find technical editors, willing to undertake the changes needed. [[User:ShakespeareFan00|ShakespeareFan00]] ([[User talk:ShakespeareFan00|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ShakespeareFan00|contribs]]) 09:32, 21 March 2026 (UTC)

== WikiEducator has closed ==

Some of you may know of a similar project to Wikiversity, called [https://wikieducator.org/Main_Page WikiEducator], championed by [https://oerfoundation.org/about/staff/wayne-mackintosh/ Wayne Mackintosh][https://www.linkedin.com/posts/waynemackintosh_important-notice-about-the-oer-foundation-activity-7405113051688931329-Nhm9/][https://openeducation.nz/killed-not-starved/].

It seems [https://openeducation.nz/terminating-oer-foundation their foundation has closed] and they are no longer operating.

They had done quite a bit of outreach (e.g., in the Pacific and Africa) to get educators using wiki.

The WikiEducator content is still available in MediaWiki - and potentially could be imported to Wikiversity ([https://wikieducator.org/WikiEducator:Copyrights CC-BY-SA] is the default license).

The closing of WikiEducator arguably makes the nurturing of Wikiversity even more important.

-- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 02:09, 1 April 2026 (UTC)

:I was never active there. If anyone has an account or is otherwise in contact, we may want to copy relevant information here or even at [[:outreach:]]. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 04:46, 1 April 2026 (UTC)

:: I reached out to [[User:Mackiwg~enwikiversity|Wayne]] in January, and he responded briefly but positively (while travelling).  I wrote to the low-traffic wikieducator mailing list today and got a nice [https://groups.google.com/g/wikieducator/c/r_yIyUw6ZIA reply] from [[user:SteveFoerster|Steve Foerster]] who's interested in helping. If we can figure out a migration path it would be great to adopt at least the main namespace pages here.  
:: A few questions that come to mind: 
:: - would people want to create matching user accounts
:: - are there any namespaces (user/talk?) that should not be moved over
:: We could look at how this was done for the [[m:Wikivoyage/Migration]] wikivoyage migration. &lt;span style=&quot;padding:0 2px 0 2px;background-color:white;color:#bbb;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash;[[User:Sj|SJ]][[User Talk:Sj|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#ff9900;&quot;&gt;+&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 04:27, 1 May 2026 (UTC)
:::That's fantastic, SJ, that you've reached out and that Wayne, Steve, and Jim are receptive—and that you can help! -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 11:52, 1 May 2026 (UTC)

== Wikinews is ending ==

Apparently mainly due to low editorial activity, low public interest, but also failure to achieve the goals from the proposal for the creation of the project, the Wikinews project is ending after years of discussions ([[Meta:Proposal for Closing Wikinews|some reading]]).

And I would be interested to see how Wikiversity is doing in the monitored metrics. We probably have more editors than Wikinews had, but what about consumers and achieving the goals? [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 19:14, 1 April 2026 (UTC)

:Wikiversity's biggest issue in recent times was the hosting of low-quality, trash content. Thankfully we've done a great job in removing pseudoscience and other embarrassingly trash content (Wikidebates, for example), but the biggest concern moving forward is proper maintenance IMO. I've caught several pseudoscience pages being created within the last few months that could easily have flown under the radar (ex, [[The Kelemen Dilemma: Causal Collapse and Axiomatic Instability]]), so I'd urge our custodians/curators to be on the lookout for this type of content. Usually an AI-overview can point this type of content out relatively well.
:In terms of visibility, I believe Wikiversity is a high-traffic project. I remember my [[Mathematical Properties]] showing up on the first page of Google when searching up &quot;math properties&quot; for the longest time (and is still showing up in the first page 'till this day!). Besides, Wikinews hosted a lot of short-term content (the nature of news articles), while Wikiversity hosts content that can still be useful a decade later (ex, [[A Reader's Guide to Annotation]]). 
:I think we are on a better path than we were a few months ago, and I do want to thank everyone here who has been helping out with maintaining our website! —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 20:48, 1 April 2026 (UTC)
:For what it's worth, the group that did that study has since disbanded, so no one is monitoring the other sister projects in the same way. Additionally, Wikinews had some catastrophic server issues due to the maintenance of [[:m:Extension:DynamicPageList]] which don't apply here. Your questions are still worth addressing, but I just wanted to cut off any concern at the pass about Wikiversity being in the same precarious situation. Wikiversity is definitely the biggest &quot;lagging behind&quot; or &quot;failure&quot; project now that Wikinews is being shuttered, but I don't see any near- or medium-term pathway to closing Wikiversity. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 00:46, 2 April 2026 (UTC)

:[[w:en:Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2026-03-31/News and notes|Entirety of Wikinews to be shut down]] (Wikipedia Signpost) -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 02:03, 11 April 2026 (UTC)

== Action Required: Update templates/modules for electoral maps (Migrating from P1846 to P14226) ==

Hello everyone,

This is a notice regarding an ongoing data migration on Wikidata that may affect your election-related templates and Lua modules (such as &lt;code&gt;Module:Itemgroup/list&lt;/code&gt;).

'''The Change:'''&lt;br /&gt;
Currently, many templates pull electoral maps from Wikidata using the property [[:d:Property:P1846|P1846]], combined with the qualifier [[:d:Property:P180|P180]]: [[:d:Q19571328|Q19571328]]. 

We are migrating this data (across roughly 4,000 items) to a newly created, dedicated property: '''[[:d:Property:P14226|P14226]]'''.

'''What You Need To Do:'''&lt;br /&gt;
To ensure your templates and infoboxes do not break or lose their maps, please update your local code to fetch data from [[:d:Property:P14226|P14226]] instead of the old [[:d:Property:P1846|P1846]] + [[:d:Property:P180|P180]] structure. A [[m:Wikidata/Property Migration: P1846 to P14226/List|list of pages]] was generated using Wikimedia Global Search.

'''Deadline:'''&lt;br /&gt;
We are temporarily retaining the old data on [[:d:Property:P1846|P1846]] to allow for a smooth transition. However, to complete the data cleanup on Wikidata, the old [[:d:Property:P1846|P1846]] statements will be removed after '''May 1, 2026'''. Please update your modules and templates before this date to prevent any disruption to your wiki's election articles.

Let us know if you have any questions or need assistance with the query logic. Thank you for your help! [[User:ZI Jony|ZI Jony]] using [[User:MediaWiki message delivery|MediaWiki message delivery]] ([[User talk:MediaWiki message delivery|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/MediaWiki message delivery|contribs]]) 17:11, 3 April 2026 (UTC)
&lt;!-- Message sent by User:ZI Jony@metawiki using the list at https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Distribution_list/Non-Technical_Village_Pumps_distribution_list&amp;oldid=29941252 --&gt;
:I didnt find such properties, so we are probably fine. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 21:00, 12 April 2026 (UTC)
:: +1 (agreed). [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 22:19, 12 April 2026 (UTC)

== Enable the abuse filter block action? ==

In light of [[Special:AbuseLog/80178]] (coupon spam), I would like to propose enabling the block action for the abuse filter. Only custodians will be able to enable and disable that action on an abuse filter, and it is useful to block ongoing vandalism. Thoughts? [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 19:12, 13 April 2026 (UTC)

:Seems like a good idea, almost all of the users which create such pages are spambots so this shouldn’t be a problem. [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 23:41, 13 April 2026 (UTC)
:Can you explain some more (I am new to abuse filters)? It looks like the attempted edit was prevented? Which abuse filter?
:Note on your suggestion, have also reactivated Antispam Filter 12 - see [[WV:RCA]]. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 10:45, 15 April 2026 (UTC)
:: I am proposing that we activate the abuse filter block action, which if a user triggers an abuse filter, it would actually block the user in question - the same mechanism that a custodian would use to block users. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 13:11, 15 April 2026 (UTC)
:::OK, thankyou, that makes sense. And, reviewing the abuse filter 12 log, it would be helpful because it would prevent the need for manual blocking. But I don't see a setting for autoblocking? -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 23:14, 15 April 2026 (UTC)
:::: I think it probably adds an autoblock. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 00:43, 16 April 2026 (UTC)
: [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] and [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]], given that a little bit more than a week has passed and there is minimal consensus to activate the abuse filter block action, I filed [[phab:T424053]]. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 15:05, 21 April 2026 (UTC)
::Thank-you for doing this. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 08:03, 24 April 2026 (UTC)

== Advice needed: A Neurodiversity-inspired Idea/observation ==

If I want the greatest participation of others to &quot;provide constructive criticism to my idea&quot; or to &quot;shoot down my idea&quot; or &quot;idea&quot;.

What I've called it so far is &quot;The Neurodiversity-inspired Idea&quot;. At other times I used more sensationalist wording but here on Wikiversity I don't dare do that. I actually woke up with thinking about putting this into my userspace draft: &quot;Personal Observations Made By Meeting Autistic and Non-Autistic Adults&quot;.

My ultimate goal is to stop blathering about my &quot;idea&quot; to friend and family without feeling my &quot;methodology&quot; is going into any progressive direction whatsoever. My latest encounter was somewhat constructive though. A friend of a friend who worked with people presenting ideas in attempting to getting grants. I don't want a grant. I just want to figure out how I can express my &quot;idea&quot; in a way so that I can more clearly figure out what flaws it got.

At the same time I tend to overthink. If anyone thinks etherpad might be a good place and considering Wikimedia already got an etherpad at https://etherpad.wikimedia.org/ if anyone feels like they know me better in the future feel free to suggest a &quot;session&quot; on etherpad.

'''If I don't receive a reply to this in 1 week's time I will begin to explore this &quot;idea&quot; into my userspace''' unless you replied and refrained me from doing so, of course. Then maybe after &quot;developing it there&quot; I might reference it to you another future time here in the Colloquium, with my &quot;idea&quot; still in my userspace draft. This &quot;idea&quot; is sort of a burden, I'm happy I've made the choice to get rid of it and hopefully move on with my life, unless there is something to this &quot;idea&quot;. 

My failure is probably evident: I feel I haven't told you anything. Same happened to when I talked to friends and family. In danger of overthinking it further I'll publish this right now. I need to &quot;keep it together&quot; [[User:ThinkingScience|ThinkingScience]] ([[User talk:ThinkingScience|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ThinkingScience|contribs]]) 10:36, 16 April 2026 (UTC)

:Good on you putting it out there ... and hitting publish :). I'd say go for it (no need to wait), give birth to your idea and share about it here and elsewhere. Let it take shape and see where it might go. In many ways, this is exactly what an open collaborative learning community should be doing. Others might not know well how to respond, so perhaps consider creating some questions to accompany the idea. Sincerely, James -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 11:21, 16 April 2026 (UTC)
::Thank you for encouraging me in developing the idea.
::I have created a &quot;questions&quot; section in the draft which is visible in the table of contents now. My brain was &quot;frozen&quot; today metaphorically speaking in that I felt I had like a &quot;writer's block&quot; so the draft has more &quot;AI/LLM&quot; content than before. I used the LLM for generating questions. The answers are so far human-only.
::I've also created a subsection where I could add the prompts that made the LLM generate the questions. That could help people make better prompts perhaps. I've described what it is about inside of it and there are some chaotically written notes.
::[[Draft:The_Neurodiversity-inspired_Idea#Questions_that_might_encourage_the_development_of_this_idea_and_its_methodology]]
::My draft is missing stuff. Any questions that you contribute to my draft will probably help me and if I don't understand the questions I'll probably notify you and also at the same time &quot;feed them&quot; to an LLM and ask in my input like &quot;explain in simple words what this question means, what is it searching for?&quot; etc. while I wait for an answer. If you have any more feedback please give it to me here or on the Draft page, its talk page or my user talk page. Thank you for helping me! [[User:ThinkingScience|ThinkingScience]] ([[User talk:ThinkingScience|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ThinkingScience|contribs]]) 21:20, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
::Today I woke up with not only thinking about supplying questions along with the &quot;idea&quot; but also answers. ie. Is it possible to &quot;test&quot; this idea? Is it possible to create one or multiple hypotheses based on this &quot;idea&quot;?(etc.) I've thought about this before in this &quot;idea&quot; but since I'm beginning to add to Wikiversity what was previously 'locked in my mind' it's also easier for me to see what I've done so far. Thank you for this comment! [[User:ThinkingScience|ThinkingScience]] ([[User talk:ThinkingScience|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ThinkingScience|contribs]]) 09:11, 23 April 2026 (UTC)
:May I think that you should not add deadlines ; being read, and rising interest for collaboration, or even simply for exchange of thoughts, such an effective meeting event loads a huge bunch of unprobability, which time can help to… somehow diminish. Maybe, I would advice you having a central place for developping your ideas, your needs, your advances, maybe a page in your own user zone, and from time to time, depending your feeling, it could be every trimester or so, or more frequently, you could write a short account of progress (or even of no progress), or a call for participation, in such a place as this present one ; I think that will increase much exposure of your projet. Maybe also, if you can find a project name, not necessarily very meaningfull by itseilf (at least it will gain signification with time, as your project develops), that will serve as a kind-of hook, and make your announcement titles more visible. Best regards (and my excuses for my poor command of English, which seems to be unplease an anti-abuse filter, &quot;Questionable Language (profanity)&quot;, which I don't understand…). My few cents. --  [[User:Eric.LEWIN|Eric.LEWIN]] ([[User talk:Eric.LEWIN|discussion]] • [[Special:Contributions/Eric.LEWIN|contributions]]) 10:06, 17 April 2026 (UTC)
::Sorry about the false positive on the profanity filter - I've fixed it. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 10:26, 17 April 2026 (UTC)
:::&quot;May I think that you should not add deadlines ; being read, and rising interest for collaboration, or even simply for exchange of thoughts, such an effective meeting event loads a huge bunch of unprobability, which time can help to… somehow diminish.&quot;
::Thank you Eric for this comment. Trust in time is how I interpret it. I should not feel like I need to be in a hurry. I'll try to give this time. Thank you!
:::&quot;Maybe, I would advice you having a central place for developping your ideas, your needs, your advances, maybe a page in your own user zone, and from time to time, depending your feeling, it could be every trimester or so, or more frequently, you could write a short account of progress (or even of no progress), or a call for participation, in such a place as this present one ; I think that will increase much exposure of your projet.&quot;
::A central place for developing or making &quot;project notes&quot; regarding the Neurodiversity idea on my userspace, I might need that, like a diary or &quot;project notes&quot; of the Neurodiversity idea similar to my course notes regarding my experience with Coursera.
::Any actions I take are going to be related to my Userspace from now on but I'll also update the draft when necessary. Now in the beginning I might be working daily to once every 3 days on both the draft and the daily notes I plan to make.
:::&quot;Maybe also, if you can find a project name, not necessarily very meaningfull by itseilf (at least it will gain signification with time, as your project develops), that will serve as a kind-of hook, and make your announcement titles more visible.&quot;
::Thank you for the advice. I was brainstorming yesterday about it. I concluded that since I've not yet developed a methodology that adheres to &quot;Do no harm&quot; and this is my first time working my &quot;idea&quot; into a way that is compatible with how projects develop on English Wikiversity this is new to me. My methodology isn't developed and therefore trying to get attention to my project through a name can wait. Yesterday I figured out a silly title that has nothing to do with the project: &quot;Planetary Awareness Potato Cabbage Rolls&quot; or something like that. Google output read that no such thing exists so I wanted it mainly to be unique. I don't want to raise attention that I'm unsure whether I'll actually be capable of developing a methodology for but project notes is my best bet so far in tracking my progress. Every day I think about this &quot;idea&quot; but I need to improve the important parts.
:::&quot;Best regards (and my excuses for my poor command of English, which seems to be unplease an anti-abuse filter, &quot;Questionable Language (profanity)&quot;, which I don't understand…). My few cents.&quot;
::You added great points and I felt that I was helped by you! I encourage you to post again and I can understand that interacting with any kind of automated filter can be discouraging and can be for me too! Thank you for giving me feedback! [[User:ThinkingScience|ThinkingScience]] ([[User talk:ThinkingScience|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ThinkingScience|contribs]]) 16:01, 18 April 2026 (UTC)

== Add some user rights to the curator user group? ==

By default, only custodians have the ability to mark new pages as patrolled (&lt;code&gt;patrol&lt;/code&gt;) and have their own page creations automatically marked as patrolled (&lt;code&gt;autopatrol&lt;/code&gt;). I am proposing both of the following:
* Curators can mark new pages as patrolled, helping on reducing the backlog of new, unpatrolled pages.
* New pages made by curators will be automatically marked as patrolled by the MediaWiki software.
Before we implement this, I would suggest implementing a proposed guideline for marking new pages as patrolled for curators and custodians.

Thoughts? [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 16:32, 17 April 2026 (UTC)

:Agree, &lt;s&gt;also can we also allow curators to undelete pages since they already have the rights to delete them?&lt;/s&gt; [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 02:54, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
::I think the requirement that undelete NOT be included came from above (meta / stewards / central office). Having access to the undelete page gives access to information that is restricted by their policies to admins (custodians and bureaucrats). -- [[User:Dave Braunschweig|Dave Braunschweig]] ([[User talk:Dave Braunschweig|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dave Braunschweig|contribs]]) 20:12, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
::: [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]], unless if requests for curator and custodian should be RfA-like processes (that is, including voting and comments), then I have to agree with Dave above. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 22:03, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
::::Oh, I didn’t realise that. Withdrawing my comment.. [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 00:08, 19 April 2026 (UTC)
:{{support}} Seems reasonable and would reduce overhead. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 14:35, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
:'''Agree''', implement it also to [[Wikiversity:Curators]] proposal please. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 17:11, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
: I went ahead and filed [[phab:T424445]]. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 15:39, 26 April 2026 (UTC)

== [[Wikiversity:Curators|Curators and curators policy]] ==
{{archive top|There is strong consensus, so [[Wikiversity:Curators]] is now a policy. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 11:15, 9 May 2026 (UTC)}}
How does it come, that Wikiversity has curators, but Curators policy is still being proposed? How do the curators exists and act if the policy about them havent been approved yet? [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 18:33, 16 October 2025 (UTC)

:It looks as if it is not just curators. The policy on Bureaucratship is still being proposed as well. See [[Wikiversity:Bureaucratship]]. —[[User:RailwayEnthusiast2025|&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Verdana; color:#008000; text-shadow:gray 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em;&quot;&gt;RailwayEnthusiast2025&lt;/span&gt;]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:RailwayEnthusiast2025|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#59a53f&quot;&gt;''talk with me!''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 18:33, 27 October 2025 (UTC)

:I think its just the nature of a small WMF sister project in that there are lots of drafts, gaps, and potential improvements. In this case, these community would need to vote on those proposed Wikiversity staff policies if we think they're ready. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 02:08, 3 December 2025 (UTC)
:What? I thought you were getting it approved, Juandev... :) [[User:I&amp;#39;m Mr. Chris|I&amp;#39;m Mr. Chris]] ([[User talk:I&amp;#39;m Mr. Chris|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/I&amp;#39;m Mr. Chris|contribs]]) 14:20, 12 February 2026 (UTC)
::Yeah I think this one is important too and we need to aprove it too @[[User:I'm Mr. Chris|I'm Mr. Chris]]. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 15:56, 12 February 2026 (UTC)
:::I thinks its ready to made into a policy, it seems to be complete and informative about what the rights does and how to get it. [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 03:08, 15 February 2026 (UTC)
::::Agree -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 11:00, 27 March 2026 (UTC)

Let's make this the official discussion about adopting the [[Wikiversity:Curators|curators policy]] policy. Your comments are invited and welcome. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 08:40, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
: There were two similar Colloquium threads in separate places about the proposed curators policy. So I've moved them to be adjacent. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 12:42, 1 May 2026 (UTC)
{{archive bottom}}

== Wikiversity:Curators to become a policy ==
{{archive top|There is strong consensus, so [[Wikiversity:Curators]] is now a policy. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 11:16, 9 May 2026 (UTC)}}
I've looked at the discussions about the Curators policy, I've looked at the practices, and it seems to me that there is no dispute about the wording of the policy, and what's more, the community has been using this proposal as if it were an offical policy for several years. Therefore, I propose that [[Wikiversity:Curators]] become a policy. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 18:35, 18 April 2026 (UTC)

:{{support}} —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 18:54, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
:{{support}} —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 20:21, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
: {{support|Yes, please}}. Especially after when I and PieWriter proposed above, I agree. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 14:27, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
:: @[[User:Juandev|Juandev]]; as of now, curators now have the user rights &lt;code&gt;autopatrol&lt;/code&gt; and &lt;code&gt;patrol&lt;/code&gt;. Perhaps we should also include that in [[Wikiversity:Custodianship]]? [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 12:07, 30 April 2026 (UTC)
:::You meant [[Wikiversity:Curators]] @[[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]]? [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 12:15, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
:::: I agree that we must develop what rules curators should follow when marking new pages as patrolled; the same can be added for custodians since they can also mark new pages as patrolled. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 13:37, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
:::::I see, well I think you can just add this to the policy. It is not major change and it probably reflects actual practice or actual technical possibilities for those flags. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 09:20, 7 May 2026 (UTC)
:{{support}} -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 12:42, 1 May 2026 (UTC)
:{{Support}} per nom. [[User:PhilDaBirdMan|PhilDaBirdMan]] ([[User talk:PhilDaBirdMan|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PhilDaBirdMan|contribs]]) 13:32, 1 May 2026 (UTC)
{{Archive bottom}}

== Inactive curators ==

Hello, even though [[Wikiversity:Curators]] is not a policy yet, there are curators listed here that have been inactive for two years or more:
* {{user|Cody naccarato}} (last edit on 13 Dec 2022, last logged action on 10 Dec 2022)
* {{user|Praxidicae}} (last edit on 10 Sep 2022, last logged action on 12 Sep 2022)
[[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 21:14, 19 April 2026 (UTC)

:Yup, I would remove the rights. To get the rights back if theyll come back should not be a big deal. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 20:08, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
:: When they don't reply by May 19, feel free (or any custodian) to do so. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 00:28, 25 April 2026 (UTC)

== Is anyone interested in Neurodiversity? ==

Is anyone interested in Neurodiversity? Is there anyone here who is interested for Neurodiversity to be &quot;something more&quot; than it already is? Does anyone here consider Neurodiversity one of the &quot;harder topics&quot; to work on or discuss? Does anyone here have an opinion about the [[Neurodiversity Movement]]? So these questions don't appear like &quot;out of a vacuum&quot; I can tell you a bit about my background:

Many years ago I got a psychiatric diagnosis &quot;Asperger's&quot;. After I stepped out of the office and my Äsperger's was 'concluded', I stepped out into the street and thought my first negative thought(but the positive thought followed after). The thought was about concentration camps in the second world war and that the world seemed to be going into the direction of &quot;labeling others&quot;. I was unsure whether this was &quot;real science&quot; and sort of &quot;challenged myself&quot; to make up my own mind after meeting people that had been given this diagnosis. The more adults with this diagnosis I met the more I started seeing &quot;patterns&quot;.

Was it a coincidence that the first person with Asperger's I met reminded me about my father later after I had plenty of times of experience with interacting with him? None of the people I interacted with online through IRC text chat...I felt I got any clue about how &quot;their brains work&quot;. Only when I met one person from the Asperger's chat community in person we both realized that whatever we experienced was akin to the &quot;chaos theory&quot;. He told me about &quot;chaos theory&quot; while I didn't know even what that term meant but I guess I 'read between the lines'. My question that I linger on still today is &quot;did he understand about me what I think I understood about him?&quot;? That our brains had the same configuration? Most autistic adults who meet other autistic adults usually get disappointed. They think the diagnosis will help them meet somebody like themselves and then they realize the great diversity in the autistic spectrum created by Psychiatry.

I later stopped interacting with autistic communities that much, I felt that it did not benefit me. Also Neurodiversity's &quot;neurotypes&quot; interested me for a while until I realized I had &quot;misunderstood everything&quot; about them and how they are used in the Neurodiversity Movement or &quot;Neurodiversity community&quot; if that even can precisely be defined? I doubt it but if you want to contribute to the [[Neurodiversity Movement]]. My previous attempts failed as I got more and more confused. I think a community project needs a community. With a lack of that I don't think it is worth my time. If any of you would like to work on that project let me know on my talk page.

So I was kinda lost and was talking to my friend and psychologist and I realized if I never talk about my idea to anyone in a &quot;comprehensive way&quot; or show that it matters to me nothing is going to ever happen. So I started talking about my &quot;idea&quot; more. Nobody could understand the &quot;idea&quot; because I had not developed my skills regarding where to start...although the process had already started &quot;automatically&quot; and that's why I often think of &quot;well my brain sort of activated me&quot;. I don't feel like I did have a plan and this idea happened. It happened &quot;by itself&quot;. My brain reacted to what I was seeing in a video or stream.

I value interaction highly in this idea. I think it would be helpful to make a community of people who are not paranoid about stuff that can express itself like &quot;don't analyze me!&quot;, &quot;don't compare me to anyone!&quot;. 

On the contrary, more often than not those adults who were diagnosed were actually openly comparing themselves with each other and I think that is healthy in a &quot;science&quot; way if done the &quot;right way&quot; which probably means &quot;Do no harm&quot;.

I found video material is important but I'm very unsure if uploading own video material to Wikimedia Commons would constitute a &quot;reasonable&quot; use of the resources there. Maybe somebody here needs to ask more questions to me that I should answer before that happens. I also know the '''be bold''' so I could just do what I think might be ok. Though I work better in a group as long as I know what &quot;group configurations&quot; help me. This is in a non-profit way. Since the state supported me this might be a way I am trying to &quot;give back&quot; to the state and &quot;the world&quot;. May seem overly ambitious and crazy but this thing gives me energy. It gives me hope when trying to develop this idea. [[User:ThinkingScience|ThinkingScience]] ([[User talk:ThinkingScience|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ThinkingScience|contribs]]) 10:47, 23 April 2026 (UTC)

:Thanks for sharing. There is plenty of room for neurodiversity community learning. However, the challenge I think is that the intersection of those interested in (a) ND, and (b) English Wikiversity might be very small (e.g., 1!) at this point in time.
:But don't give up hope. For example, Wikipedia has many more ND-interested editors; maybe consider reaching out to see who might be interested:
:[[w:Category:Wikipedians interested in neurodiversity]]
:You could also start an equivalent category here:
:[[:Category:Wikiversitarians interested in neurodiversity]] -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 04:46, 6 May 2026 (UTC)

== Request for comment (global AI policy) ==

&lt;bdi lang=&quot;en&quot; dir=&quot;ltr&quot; class=&quot;mw-content-ltr&quot;&gt;A [[:m:Requests for comment/Artificial intelligence policy|request for comment]] is currently being held to decide on a global AI policy. {{int:Feedback-thanks-title}} [[User:MediaWiki message delivery|MediaWiki message delivery]] ([[User talk:MediaWiki message delivery|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/MediaWiki message delivery|contribs]]) 00:58, 26 April 2026 (UTC)&lt;/bdi&gt;
&lt;!-- Message sent by User:Codename Noreste@metawiki using the list at https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Distribution_list/Global_message_delivery&amp;oldid=30424282 --&gt;

== Coming over From wikinews ==

Any chance someone could help me if you are allowed to write news articles here since wikinews is going read only mode soon, thank you! [[User:BigKrow|BigKrow]] ([[User talk:BigKrow|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/BigKrow|contribs]]) 22:43, 1 May 2026 (UTC)

:The scope of Wikiversity is very broad and is basically about more-or-less any learning material. We have made it a point to not have duplicative content of other WMF projects, but since Wikinews is being shuttered, I personally am fine with writing news articles here. One thing that is not controversial at all is a learning resource &lt;em&gt;about&lt;/em&gt; how to write news: that could be hugely useful here and could involve the process of writing news stories to learn and to share back and forth with an editor or fact-checker. In fact, I'd support an entire namespace dedicated to keeping the notion of Wikinews alive here. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 23:38, 1 May 2026 (UTC)
::Thank you so much! How do I start? Cheers! @[[User:Koavf|Koavf]] [[User:BigKrow|BigKrow]] ([[User talk:BigKrow|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/BigKrow|contribs]]) 01:07, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
:::I think it's premature to start just making news articles en masse, but if you want to start discussing the topic of citizen journalism, you can do that now. [[:Category:Journalism]] already has some material, so you can start by seeing what we already have, how you can refine that, etc. You can definitely have learning resources with collaborators who want to learn about journalism ASAP. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 01:24, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
::::thanks. [[User:BigKrow|BigKrow]] ([[User talk:BigKrow|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/BigKrow|contribs]]) 01:38, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
::::If I could try and start one News Article could you please tell me how to go about it? Like what style of writing like Wikinews or something else? Thank you Justin! @[[User:Koavf|Koavf]] [[User:BigKrow|BigKrow]] ([[User talk:BigKrow|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/BigKrow|contribs]]) 01:48, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
:::::Honestly, there are very few policies and guidelines here. I think the best way to write a news story would be in a manner that is obvious and instructive. So, for instance, it's common to use the &quot;pyramid style&quot; when you're writing news, so if you were to write a story that makes it very clear that you are using that approach, that would be helpful. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 02:08, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
::::::cool thanks. [[User:BigKrow|BigKrow]] ([[User talk:BigKrow|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/BigKrow|contribs]]) 02:13, 2 May 2026 (UTC)

== Language learning  ==

toki! I am trying to add or see what the toki pona language learning stuff on here is but I don't see anything that is language learning for anything. [[User:Jan Imon|Jan Imon]] ([[User talk:Jan Imon|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Jan Imon|contribs]]) 23:13, 2 May 2026 (UTC) —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 17:29, 3 May 2026 (UTC)

:We have language materials ([[:Category:Languages]], [[World Languages]], [[Portal:Foreign Language Learning]], [[Portal:Multilingual Studies]]). They are not as developed as I think we would all like and there's not any coverage of Toki Pona, but in principle, we could and would like that. You can also see [[:b:Subject:Languages]] at our sister project Wikibooks. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 17:33, 3 May 2026 (UTC)

== Timeline format? ==

I’ve been working on the World War II articles, including the [[World War II/Timeline|timeline]], and is there a specific timeline format that should be used? Right now it’s just a table, and there’s no separation between different periods/phases of the war.

I don’t want to use [[mw:Extension:EasyTimeline]] because this will be displaying dates and not time periods. [[User:PhilDaBirdMan|PhilDaBirdMan]] ([[User talk:PhilDaBirdMan|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PhilDaBirdMan|contribs]]) 01:35, 4 May 2026 (UTC)

:I dont think we have a policy or guideline, how to format a timeline. But you may try to browes wikiversity by Google if someone was dealing with this in the past somewhow @[[User:PhilDaBirdMan|PhilDaBirdMan]]. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 12:23, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
::+1 - there's no specific guideline on how to format a timeline, it's really up to you. In my opinion I think the timeline is good. I'd personally bold the dates just to make it easier to separate it from the event description, but that's my personal 2 cents. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 14:18, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
:::I’ll probably remove links to the dates/years, they’re just Wikipedia pages that shouldn’t be over linked to. [[User:PhilDaBirdMan|PhilDaBirdMan]] ([[User talk:PhilDaBirdMan|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PhilDaBirdMan|contribs]]) 00:39, 6 May 2026 (UTC)

== Interface administrator for Codename Noreste ==

Hello, everyone. I am requesting interface administrator access on this wiki.

The main reasoning is that I would benefit from having the user right &lt;code&gt;editinterface&lt;/code&gt;, which would allow me to make dark mode changes to pages in the MediaWiki namespace, add &lt;code&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;&lt;div class=&quot;mw-parser-output&quot;&gt;&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/code&gt; to some interface pages using templates, handle interface-protected edit requests, and similar stuff. Additionally, I have some knowledge of CSS, and I would like to assist with modifying CSS pages whenever necessary, such as moving MediaWiki common.css code to TemplateStyles CSS pages.

I am requesting the maximum time that is allowed per the [[Wikiversity:Interface administrators|policy]], and I have 2FA enabled on my account. Thank you. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 00:55, 6 May 2026 (UTC)

*{{support}} Globally trusted user. ―[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:black&quot;&gt;v&lt;/span&gt;f&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 01:07, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
*{{support}} Trusted and knowledgeable. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 04:35, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
*{{support}} WV would benefit from this. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 08:32, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
*{{support}} --[[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 09:13, 7 May 2026 (UTC)

:{{Comment}} Could @[[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] delete [[MediaWiki:Gadget-WikiSign.js]], which was requested to be deleted @[[User:Koavf|Justin]], @[[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]], @[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]]? I dont think we need it. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 07:40, 9 May 2026 (UTC)
::Yes - clearly no longer used -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 10:18, 9 May 2026 (UTC)
::: I can't delete it because I don't have the required permissions to do so.
::: On a side note, if this project has a need for permanent interface administrators, I would suggest that we have a minimum of two IAs, similar to how there must be two CUs and suppressors (or none). Maybe Koavf can be a good candidate if I am elected for permanent interface adminship, and I believe that permission shouldn't be removed from someone's own account. Instead, a bureaucrat should do it. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 13:20, 9 May 2026 (UTC)</text>
      <sha1>4ohetn206bncspx4adbdrs0dynfxqjr</sha1>
    </revision>
    <revision>
      <id>2808041</id>
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      <timestamp>2026-05-09T13:22:49Z</timestamp>
      <contributor>
        <username>Codename Noreste</username>
        <id>2969951</id>
      </contributor>
      <minor />
      <comment>/* Interface administrator for Codename Noreste */ edit reply to Jtneill ([[mw:c:Special:MyLanguage/User:JWBTH/CD|CD]])</comment>
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      <text bytes="78162" sha1="4h94pz0tkj7a7rado20a2tt4ilaofio" xml:space="preserve">{{Wikiversity:Colloquium/Header}}
&lt;!-- MESSAGES GO BELOW --&gt;
== Requested update to [[Wikiversity:Interface administrators]] ==

Currently, [[Wikiversity:Interface administrators]] is a policy that includes a caveat that interface admins are not required long-term and that user right can only be added for a period of up to two weeks. I am proposing that we remove this qualification and allow for indefinite interface admin status. I think this is useful because there are reasons for tweaking the site CSS or JavaScript (e.g. to comply with dark mode), add gadgets (e.g. importing Cat-a-Lot, which I would like to do), or otherwise modifying the site that could plausibly come up on an irregular basis and requiring the overhead of a bureaucrat to add the user rights is inefficient. In particular, I am also going to request this right if the community accepts indefinite interface admins. Thoughts? —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 23:23, 17 August 2025 (UTC)

:And who will then monitor them to make sure they don't damage the project in any way, or abuse the rights acquired in this way? For large projects, this might not be a problem, but for smaller projects like the English Wikiversity, I'm not sure if there are enough users who would say, something is happening here that shouldn't be happening. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 10:28, 20 August 2025 (UTC)
::Anyone would be who. This argument applies to any person with any advanced rights here. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 10:46, 20 August 2025 (UTC)
:I think it is reasonable to allow for longer periods of access than 2 weeks to interface admin and support adjusting the policy to allow for this flexibility. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 04:57, 2 December 2025 (UTC)
::+1 —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 16:38, 25 January 2026 (UTC)
:@[[User:Koavf|Koavf]] I agree that the two-week requirement could be revised, but wouldn’t people just request access for a specific purpose anyway? Instead of granting indefinite access, they should request the specific time frame they need the rights for—until the planned fixes are completed—and then request an extension if more time is required. We could remove the two-week criterion while still keeping the access explicitly temporary. [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 02:48, 25 January 2026 (UTC)
::I just don't see why this wiki needs to be different than all of the others. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 07:18, 25 January 2026 (UTC)
:::There isn’t really much of a need for a permanent one at this point in time [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 09:53, 25 January 2026 (UTC)
:I quite agree with this proposal, so long as they perform the suggested changes as mentioned here. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 04:06, 26 January 2026 (UTC)
:: Just to clarify, I support '''indefinite interface admin status'''. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 18:34, 13 April 2026 (UTC)
:I think there is decent consensus for lengthening this, but not necessarily for indefinite permissions, so does anyone object to me revising it to the standard being 120 days instead of two weeks? I'll check back on this thread in three weeks and if there's no objection, I'll make the change. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 20:47, 13 April 2026 (UTC)
::Sure [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 23:27, 13 April 2026 (UTC)
::Thanks for proposing this, Justin. I agree with the proposal to lengthen the interface admin period from 2 weeks but not indefinitely. Can I check the source(s) for the standard being 120 days (I'm guessing policies on other projects or maybe global policy?)? In any case, I think it is reasonable for us to adopt a similar period. However, note on the current policy discussion page notes from @[[User:Dave Braunschweig|Dave Braunschweig]] arguing for shorter periods to lower risk, that's why it is 2 weeks. But if there are projects that need longer access, that should also be accommodated. Maybe we could adjust the policy to specify that ''interface admin rights can be given for 14 to 120 days depending on how long is required and what is supported by the community''. Sincerely, James -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 08:29, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
:::There was there was no source for 120: it was just more than 14 and less than infinity. The &quot;14 to 120&quot; also seems reasonable. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 14:33, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
::: On some small/medium-sized wikis, such as English Wikibooks and English Wikiquote for example, indefinite interface administrator access for administrators is allowed, but they tend not to make changes to the CSS and JS page changes unless it's truly necessary. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 14:34, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
:::It's a good idea to make the length of this right on request or allow to be prolonged. However, IA should test large changes somewhere else, for example on the en.wv mirror, and only after testing it on the mirror, adapt it to the live version. That means I can't imagine a time-consuming operation right now. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 20:04, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
::::Sorry, what mirror is this? Are you talking about beta.wv? —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 20:32, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
:::::Not beta.wv. Basically somewhere else then on a live wiki. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 20:59, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
:::::: Wouldn't testing on a user's own common.css page work anyway? [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 21:36, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
:Change made here: https://en.wikiversity.org/w/index.php?title=Wikiversity%3AInterface_administrators&amp;diff=2807543&amp;oldid=2806289 —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 13:35, 4 May 2026 (UTC)

== [[Template:AI-generated]] ==

After going through the plethora of ChatGPT-generated pages made by [[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]] (with many more pages to go), I'd like community input on this proposal to [[Wikiversity:Artificial intelligence]] that I think would be benefical for the community:
*Resources generated by AI '''must''' be indicated as so through the project box, [[Template:AI-generated]], on either the page or the main resource (if the page is a part of a project).
I do not believe including a small note/reference that a page is AI-generated is sufficient, and I take my thinking from [[WV:Original research|Wikiversity's OR policy]] for OR work: ''Within Wikiversity, all original research should be clearly identified as such''. I believe resources created from AI should also be clearly indicated as such, especially since we are working on whether or not AI-generated resources should be allowed on the website (discussion is [[Wikiversity talk:Artificial intelligence|here]], for reference). This makes it easier for organizational purposes, and in the event ''if'' we ban AI-generated work. 

I've left a message on Lee's talk page over a week ago and did not get a response or acknowledgement, so I'd like for the community's input for this inclusion to the policy. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 15:53, 26 January 2026 (UTC)

:I believe that existing Wikiversity policies are sufficient. Authors are responsible for the accuracy and usefulness of the content that is published. This policy covers AI-generated content that is: 1) carefully reviewed by the author publishing it, and 2) the source is noted.   [[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]] ([[User talk:Lbeaumont|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Lbeaumont|contribs]]) 19:38, 27 January 2026 (UTC)
::A small reference for pages that are substantially filled with Chat-GPT entries, like [[Real Good Religion]], [[Attributing Blame]], [[Fostering Curiosity]], are not sufficient IMO and a project box would be the best indicator that a page is AI-generated (especially when there is a mixture of human created content AND AI-generated content, as present in a lot of your pages). This is useful, especially considering the notable issues with AI (including hallucinations and fabrication of details), so viewers and support staff are aware. These small notes left on the pages are not as easily viewable as a project box or banner would be. I really don't see the issue with a clear-label guideline. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 22:34, 27 January 2026 (UTC)
::{{ping|Lbeaumont}} I noticed your reversions [https://en.wikiversity.org/w/index.php?title=Exploring_Existential_Concerns&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2788278 here] &amp; [https://en.wikiversity.org/w/index.php?title=Subjective_Awareness&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2788257 here]. I'd prefer to have a clean conversation regarding this proposition. Please voice your concerns here. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 15:53, 28 January 2026 (UTC)
:::Regarding Subjective Awareness, I distinctly recall the effort I went to to write that the old-fashioned way. It is true that ChatGPT assisted me in augmenting the list of words suggested as candidate subjective states. This is a small section of the course, is clearly marked, and makes no factual claim. Marking the entire course as AI-generated is misleading. I would have made these comments when I reverted your edit; however, the revert button does not provide that opportunity.
:::Regarding the Exploring Existential Concerns course, please note this was adapted from my EmotionalCompetency.com website, which predates the availability of LLMs. The course does include two links, clearly labeled as ChatGPT-generated. Again, marking the entire course as AI-generated is misleading.
:::On a broader issue, I don't consider your opinions to have established a carefully debated and adopted Wikiversity policy. You went ahead and modified many of my courses over my clearly stated objections. Please let this issue play out more completely before editing my courses further. Thanks.   [[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]] ([[User talk:Lbeaumont|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Lbeaumont|contribs]]) 15:11, 29 January 2026 (UTC)
::::Understood, and I respect your position. I apologize if my edits were seen as overarching. We could change the project box to &quot;a portion of this resource was generated by AI&quot;, or something along those lines. Feel free to revert my changes where you see fit, and I encourage more users to provide their input. EDIT: I've made changes to the template to indicate that a portion of the content has been generated from an LLM. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 15:50, 29 January 2026 (UTC)
:::::Thanks for this reply. The new banner is unduly large and alarming. There is no need for alarm here. The use of AI is not harmful per se. Like any technology, it can be used to help or to harm. I take care to craft prompts carefully, point the LMM to reliable source materials, and to carefully read and verify the generated text before I publish it. This is all in keeping with long-established Wikiversity policy. We don't want to use a  [[w:One-drop_rule|one-drop rule]] here or cause a [[w:Satanic_panic|satanic panic]]. We can learn our lessons from history here. I don't see any pedagogical reason for establishing a classification of &quot;AI generated&quot;, but if there is a consensus that it is needed, perhaps it can be handled as just another category that learning resources can be assigned to. I would rather focus on identifying any errors in factual claims than on casting pejorative bias toward AI-generated content. An essay on the best practices for using LMM on Wikiveristy would be welcome.   [[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]] ([[User talk:Lbeaumont|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Lbeaumont|contribs]]) 15:58, 30 January 2026 (UTC)
::::::The new banner mimics the banner that is available on the English Wikibooks (see [[b:Template:AI-generated]] &amp; [[b:Template:Uses AI]]), so my revisions aren't unique in this aspect. At this point, I'd welcome other peoples' inputs. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 19:40, 30 January 2026 (UTC)

== How do I start making pages? ==
Is there a notability guideline for Wikiversity? What is the sourcing policy for information? What is the Manual of Style? What kind of educational content qualifies for Wikiversity? All the introduction pages are a bit unclear. 
[[User:VidanaliK|VidanaliK]] ([[User talk:VidanaliK|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/VidanaliK|contribs]]) 02:25, 28 January 2026 (UTC)

:{{ping|VidanaliK}} Welcome to Wikiversity! I've left you a welcome message on your talk page. That should help you out. Make sure to especially look at [[Wikiversity:Introduction]]. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 03:11, 28 January 2026 (UTC)
::It says that I can't post more pages because I have apparently exceeded the new page limit. How long does it take before that new page limit expires? [[User:VidanaliK|VidanaliK]] ([[User talk:VidanaliK|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/VidanaliK|contribs]]) 16:57, 28 January 2026 (UTC)
:::This is a restriction for new users so that Wikiversity is not hit with massive spam. As for when this limit will expire, it should be a few days or after a certain number of edits. It's easy to overcome, though I do not have the exact numbers atm. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 15:08, 29 January 2026 (UTC)
::::OK, I think I got past the limit. [[User:VidanaliK|VidanaliK]] ([[User talk:VidanaliK|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/VidanaliK|contribs]]) 17:21, 29 January 2026 (UTC)
==Why does it feel like Wikiversity is no longer really active anymore?==
I've been looking at recent changes, and both today and yesterday there haven't been many changes that I haven't made; it feels like walking through a ghost town, is this just me or is Wikiversity not really active anymore? [[User:VidanaliK|VidanaliK]] ([[User talk:VidanaliK|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/VidanaliK|contribs]]) 03:54, 30 January 2026 (UTC)

:There is fewer people editing these days compared to the past. Many newcomers tend to edit in Wikipedia instead. [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 06:39, 30 January 2026 (UTC)
:It’s a little slow, but I’m happy to know that Wikiversity is a place that I think should provide value even if the activity of editors fluctuates. If it’s any consolation your edits may be encouraging for some anonymous newcomer to start edits on their own! I think it’s hard to build community when there is such a wide variety of interests and a smaller starting userbase. Also sometimes the getting into a particular topic that already exists can be intimidating because some relics (large portals, school, categories, etc.) have intricate, unique and generally messy levels of organization. [[User:IanVG|IanVG]] ([[User talk:IanVG|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/IanVG|contribs]]) 22:16, 9 March 2026 (UTC)
:I'd say it comes down to working hard for Wikiversity, basically if somebody or a group of people will start presenting good ideas and they turn out to be provably stable.
:I even asked Google's &quot;AI Mode&quot;, what is Wikiversity famous for? Unfortunately it could not answer that.
:Simply, we have not made Wikiversity famous by presenting really provable stable ideas yet. My hope is that this time might come. Perhaps even this year 2026!
:Hope dies last. [[User:ThinkingScience|ThinkingScience]] ([[User talk:ThinkingScience|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ThinkingScience|contribs]]) 10:12, 27 April 2026 (UTC)

== Inactivity policy for Curators ==

I was wondering if there is a specific inactivity polity for curators (semi-admins) as I am pretty sure the global policy does not apply to them as they are not ''fully'' sysops. [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 03:20, 15 February 2026 (UTC)

:Unfortunately, I don't see an inactivity policy, but if we were to create such a new policy for curators, it should be the same for custodians (administrators). [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 18:45, 15 February 2026 (UTC)
::@[[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] There is currently none, that I could find, for custodians either. [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 00:47, 17 February 2026 (UTC)
:::I think we should propose a local inactivity policy for custodians (and by extension, curators), which should be at least one year without any edits ''and'' logged actions. However, I don't know which page should it be when the inactivity removal procedure starts. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 00:53, 17 February 2026 (UTC)
::::@[[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] In theory, there should be a section added at [[WV:Candidates for custodianship]] [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 00:55, 17 February 2026 (UTC)
::::: To be consistent with the [[meta:Admin activity review|global period of 2 years inactivity]] for en.wv  [[Wikiversity:Custodianship#Notes|Custodians]] and [[Wikiversity:Bureaucratship#How are bureaucrats removed?|Bureaucrats]] we could add something like this to [[Wikiversity:Curators]]:
::::::The maximum time period of inactivity &lt;u&gt;without community review&lt;/u&gt; for curators is two years (consistent with  the [[:meta:Category:Global policies|global policy]] described at [[meta:Admin activity review|Admin activity review]] which applies for [[Wikiversity:Custodianship#Notes|Custodians]] and [[Wikiversity:Bureaucratship|Bureaucrats]]). After that time a custodian will remove the rights.
::::: -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 10:51, 27 March 2026 (UTC)
:::::Yup, I agree with Jtneill, there is a policy proposal for Wikiversity:Curators, where it should be logically deployed. The question is if we are ready to aprove the policy. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 17:43, 17 April 2026 (UTC)
:::::: I agree, but we should notify the colloquium about inactive curators, just like a steward would do for inactive custodians and bureaucrats per [[:m:Admin activity review|AAR]]. What is the minimum timeframe an inactive curator should receive so they can respond they would keep their rights? [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 17:49, 17 April 2026 (UTC)
:I incorporated these suggestions into the proposed curators policy. Please review/comment/improve. Summary: 2 years, notify curator's user page, then remove rights after 1 month: [[Wikiversity:Curators#Inactivity]]. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 08:59, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
:: @[[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] I created [[Template:Inactive curator]] for this. Feel free to make any changes or improvements. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 14:29, 24 April 2026 (UTC)

== [[Wikiversity:Artificial intelligence]] to become an official policy ==
{{Archive top|After running for a week, there is consensus, alongside comments, for [[Wikiversity:Artificial intelligence]] to be implemented as an official policy. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 23:27, 17 April 2026 (UTC)}}
With the introduction of AI-material, and some material just plain disruptive, its imperative that Wikiversity catches up with its sister projects and implements an official AI policy that we can work with. The recent issue of [[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]]'s 50+ articles that contain significantly large AI-generated material has made me came to the Colloquium. This user has also been removing the [[Template:AI-generated]] template from their pages, calling it &quot;misleading&quot;, &quot;alarmist&quot;, and &quot;pejorative&quot; - which is all just simply nonsensical rationales. Not to even mention this user's contributions to the English Wikipedia have been [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Inner_Development_Goals contested] and [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Multipolar_trap removed] a couple of times (for being low-quality and clearly LLM-generated), highlighting the need for an actual policy to be implemented here on Wikiversity. I would like to ping {{ping|Juandev}} and {{ping|Jtneill}} for their thoughts as well, since I'd like this to be implemented as soon as possible. 

Wikiversity has a significant issue with implementing anti-disruptive measures, hence why we have received numerous complaints as a community about our quality. I originally was reverting the removal of the templates, but realized that this is still a proposed policy, which it shouldn't be anymore. It should be a recognized Wikiversity policy. 14:54, 10 March 2026 (UTC) —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 14:54, 10 March 2026 (UTC)

:@[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] '''I agree''' that the draft, should become official policy. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 17:00, 10 March 2026 (UTC)
:I provided a detailed response at: [[Wikiversity talk:Artificial intelligence#Evolving a Wikiversity policy on AI]]
:I will appreaciate it if you consder that carefully. [[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]] ([[User talk:Lbeaumont|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Lbeaumont|contribs]]) 22:49, 10 March 2026 (UTC)
:Agree it should become official Wikiversity policy on the condition &lt;u&gt;that point point 5 is about [significant/substantial] LLM-generated text specifically&lt;/u&gt;. Not a good idea to overuse it, it should be added when there is substantial AI-generated text on the page, not for other cases. [[User:Prototyperspective|Prototyperspective]] ([[User talk:Prototyperspective|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Prototyperspective|contribs]]) 12:37, 11 March 2026 (UTC)
:What policy is being debated? Is it the text on this page, which is pointed to by the general banner, or the text at:   [[Wikiversity:Artificial intelligence|Wikiversity:Artificial intelligence,]]   which is pointed to by the specific banner? Let's begin with coherence on the text being debated. Thanks!  [[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]] ([[User talk:Lbeaumont|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Lbeaumont|contribs]]) 11:49, 17 March 2026 (UTC)
::@[[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]] This is a call for approval of the new Wikiversity policy. You expressed your opinion [[Wikiversity talk:Artificial intelligence#Evolving a Wikiversity policy on AI|on the talk page of the proposal]], I replied to you and await your response.When creating policies, it is necessary to propose specific solutions. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 14:12, 17 March 2026 (UTC)
:::Toward a Justified and Parsimonious AI Policy 
:::As we collaborate to develop a consensus policy on the use of Large Language Models, it is wise to begin by considering the needs of the various stakeholders to the policy.
:::The stakeholders are:
:::1)     The users, 
:::2)     The source providers, and
:::3)     The editors
:::There may also be others with a minor stake in this policy, including the population at large.
:::The many needs of the users are currently addressed by long-standing [[Wikiversity:Policies|Wikiversity policies]], so we can focus on what, if any, additional needs arise as LLMs are deployed. 
:::As always, users need assurance that propositional statements are accurate. This is covered by the existing policy on [[Wikiversity:Verifiability|verifiably]]. In addition, it is expected by both the users and those that provide materials used as sources for the text are [[Wikiversity:Cite sources|accurately attributed]]. This is also covered by [[Wikiversity:Cite sources|existing policies]].
:::To respect the time and effort of editors, a parsimonious policy will unburden editors from costly requirements that exceed benefits to the users.
:::Finally, it is important to recognize that because attention is our most valuable seizing attention unnecessarily is a form of theft. 
:::The following proposed policy statement results from these considerations:
:::Recommended Policy statement:
:::·       Editors [[Wikiversity:Verifiability|verify the accuracy]] of propositional statements, regardless of the source.
:::·       Editors [[Wikiversity:Cite sources|attribute the source]] of propositional statements. In the case of LLM, cite the LLM model and the prompt used.
:::·       Use of various available templates to mark the use of LLM are optional. Templates that are flexible in noting the type and extend of LLM usage are preferred. Templates that avoid unduly distracting or alarming the user are preferred. [[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]] ([[User talk:Lbeaumont|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Lbeaumont|contribs]]) 19:56, 19 March 2026 (UTC)
::::Do we discuss here or there? I have replied you there as your proposal is about that policy so it is tradition to discuss it at the affected talk page. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 21:59, 19 March 2026 (UTC)
: {{support}} Thanks for the proposed policy development and discussion; also note proposed policy talk page discussion: [[Wikiversity talk:Artificial intelligence]] -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 12:05, 24 March 2026 (UTC)
::I think the Wikiversity AI policy shall be official. – [[User:RestoreAccess111|RestoreAccess111]] &lt;sup style=&quot;font-family:Arimo, Arial;&quot;&gt;[[User talk:RestoreAccess111|Talk!]]&lt;/sup&gt; &lt;sup style=&quot;font-family:Times New Roman, Tinos;&quot;&gt;[[Special:Contributions/RestoreAccess111|Watch!]]&lt;/sup&gt; 06:11, 13 April 2026 (UTC)
{{archive bottom}}

== New titles for user right nominations ==
&lt;div class=&quot;cd-moveMark&quot;&gt;''Moved from [[Wikiversity talk:Candidates for Custodianship#New titles for user right nominations]].  [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 23:20, 17 April 2026 (UTC)''&lt;/div&gt;

I would like to propose the following retitles should a user be nominated for any of the following user rights:
* Curator: Candidates for Curatorship
* Bureaucrat: Candidates for Bureaucratship
The reason is that many curator (and probably bureaucrat) requests have run solely under {{tq|Candidates for Custodianship}}, but that title might sound misleading (especially in regards to the permission a user is requesting). CheckUser and Oversight (suppressor) are not included above since no user was nominated for these sensitive permissions, probably. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 01:30, 19 March 2026 (UTC)

:And it's not that when someone at the beginning misplaced the request, no one thought to move it and the others copied it. Even today, it would be possible to simply take it all and move it. Otherwise, for me, the more fundamental problem is that there is [[Wikiversity:Curators|no approved policy for curators]] than where the requests are based. Curators then operate in a certain vacuum and if one of them &quot;breaks out of the chain&quot;, the average user doesn't have many transparent tools to deal with it, because there is no policy. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 07:02, 19 March 2026 (UTC)
::I am not talking about the curator page (policy proposal). [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 19:08, 21 March 2026 (UTC)
: @[[User:Juandev|Juandev]] I'll see if I can do an overhaul of [[Wikiversity:Candidates for Custodianship]], just like I recently did with the Requests for adminship page on English Wikiquote. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 22:17, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
:Yes, great idea - ideally there will be separate &quot;Candidates for ...&quot; pages for each user right group. The most important for now is to separate curator and custodian pages as CN suggests. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 11:39, 1 May 2026 (UTC)
:So maybe I previously misunderstood. Are you proposing separated pages for nominations (i.e. [[Wikiversity:Candidates for Curatorship]], [[Wikiversity:Candidates for Bureaucratship]], [[Wikiversity:Candidates for Custodianship]])? [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 12:30, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
:: Yes. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 13:33, 5 May 2026 (UTC)

== Technical Request:  Courtesy link.. ==

[[Template_talk:Information#Background_must_have_color_defined_as_well]] [[User:ShakespeareFan00|ShakespeareFan00]] ([[User talk:ShakespeareFan00|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ShakespeareFan00|contribs]]) 11:43, 20 March 2026 (UTC)
: I can't edit the template directly as it need an sysop/interface admin to do it. [[User:ShakespeareFan00|ShakespeareFan00]] ([[User talk:ShakespeareFan00|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ShakespeareFan00|contribs]]) 11:43, 20 March 2026 (UTC)
:: Also if the Template field of - https://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Special:LintErrors/night-mode-unaware-background-color is examined, there is poential for an admin to clear a substantial proportion of these by implmenting a simmilar fix to the indciated templates (and underlying stylesheets). It would be nice to clear things like Project box and others, as many other templates (and thus pages depend on them.) :)
[[User:ShakespeareFan00|ShakespeareFan00]] ([[User talk:ShakespeareFan00|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ShakespeareFan00|contribs]]) 11:43, 20 March 2026 (UTC)

:I think it would be best to grant you interface admin rights for a short period of time to make these changes. However, I still have doubts about the suitability of this solution, which may cause other problems and no one has explained to me why dark mode has to be implemented this way @[[User:ShakespeareFan00|ShakespeareFan00]]. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 20:43, 20 March 2026 (UTC)

: I would have reservations about holding such rights, which is why I was trying to do what I could without needing them. However if it is the only way to get the required changes made, I would suggest asking on Wikipedia to find technical editors, willing to undertake the changes needed. [[User:ShakespeareFan00|ShakespeareFan00]] ([[User talk:ShakespeareFan00|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ShakespeareFan00|contribs]]) 09:32, 21 March 2026 (UTC)

== WikiEducator has closed ==

Some of you may know of a similar project to Wikiversity, called [https://wikieducator.org/Main_Page WikiEducator], championed by [https://oerfoundation.org/about/staff/wayne-mackintosh/ Wayne Mackintosh][https://www.linkedin.com/posts/waynemackintosh_important-notice-about-the-oer-foundation-activity-7405113051688931329-Nhm9/][https://openeducation.nz/killed-not-starved/].

It seems [https://openeducation.nz/terminating-oer-foundation their foundation has closed] and they are no longer operating.

They had done quite a bit of outreach (e.g., in the Pacific and Africa) to get educators using wiki.

The WikiEducator content is still available in MediaWiki - and potentially could be imported to Wikiversity ([https://wikieducator.org/WikiEducator:Copyrights CC-BY-SA] is the default license).

The closing of WikiEducator arguably makes the nurturing of Wikiversity even more important.

-- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 02:09, 1 April 2026 (UTC)

:I was never active there. If anyone has an account or is otherwise in contact, we may want to copy relevant information here or even at [[:outreach:]]. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 04:46, 1 April 2026 (UTC)

:: I reached out to [[User:Mackiwg~enwikiversity|Wayne]] in January, and he responded briefly but positively (while travelling).  I wrote to the low-traffic wikieducator mailing list today and got a nice [https://groups.google.com/g/wikieducator/c/r_yIyUw6ZIA reply] from [[user:SteveFoerster|Steve Foerster]] who's interested in helping. If we can figure out a migration path it would be great to adopt at least the main namespace pages here.  
:: A few questions that come to mind: 
:: - would people want to create matching user accounts
:: - are there any namespaces (user/talk?) that should not be moved over
:: We could look at how this was done for the [[m:Wikivoyage/Migration]] wikivoyage migration. &lt;span style=&quot;padding:0 2px 0 2px;background-color:white;color:#bbb;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash;[[User:Sj|SJ]][[User Talk:Sj|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#ff9900;&quot;&gt;+&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 04:27, 1 May 2026 (UTC)
:::That's fantastic, SJ, that you've reached out and that Wayne, Steve, and Jim are receptive—and that you can help! -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 11:52, 1 May 2026 (UTC)

== Wikinews is ending ==

Apparently mainly due to low editorial activity, low public interest, but also failure to achieve the goals from the proposal for the creation of the project, the Wikinews project is ending after years of discussions ([[Meta:Proposal for Closing Wikinews|some reading]]).

And I would be interested to see how Wikiversity is doing in the monitored metrics. We probably have more editors than Wikinews had, but what about consumers and achieving the goals? [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 19:14, 1 April 2026 (UTC)

:Wikiversity's biggest issue in recent times was the hosting of low-quality, trash content. Thankfully we've done a great job in removing pseudoscience and other embarrassingly trash content (Wikidebates, for example), but the biggest concern moving forward is proper maintenance IMO. I've caught several pseudoscience pages being created within the last few months that could easily have flown under the radar (ex, [[The Kelemen Dilemma: Causal Collapse and Axiomatic Instability]]), so I'd urge our custodians/curators to be on the lookout for this type of content. Usually an AI-overview can point this type of content out relatively well.
:In terms of visibility, I believe Wikiversity is a high-traffic project. I remember my [[Mathematical Properties]] showing up on the first page of Google when searching up &quot;math properties&quot; for the longest time (and is still showing up in the first page 'till this day!). Besides, Wikinews hosted a lot of short-term content (the nature of news articles), while Wikiversity hosts content that can still be useful a decade later (ex, [[A Reader's Guide to Annotation]]). 
:I think we are on a better path than we were a few months ago, and I do want to thank everyone here who has been helping out with maintaining our website! —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 20:48, 1 April 2026 (UTC)
:For what it's worth, the group that did that study has since disbanded, so no one is monitoring the other sister projects in the same way. Additionally, Wikinews had some catastrophic server issues due to the maintenance of [[:m:Extension:DynamicPageList]] which don't apply here. Your questions are still worth addressing, but I just wanted to cut off any concern at the pass about Wikiversity being in the same precarious situation. Wikiversity is definitely the biggest &quot;lagging behind&quot; or &quot;failure&quot; project now that Wikinews is being shuttered, but I don't see any near- or medium-term pathway to closing Wikiversity. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 00:46, 2 April 2026 (UTC)

:[[w:en:Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2026-03-31/News and notes|Entirety of Wikinews to be shut down]] (Wikipedia Signpost) -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 02:03, 11 April 2026 (UTC)

== Action Required: Update templates/modules for electoral maps (Migrating from P1846 to P14226) ==

Hello everyone,

This is a notice regarding an ongoing data migration on Wikidata that may affect your election-related templates and Lua modules (such as &lt;code&gt;Module:Itemgroup/list&lt;/code&gt;).

'''The Change:'''&lt;br /&gt;
Currently, many templates pull electoral maps from Wikidata using the property [[:d:Property:P1846|P1846]], combined with the qualifier [[:d:Property:P180|P180]]: [[:d:Q19571328|Q19571328]]. 

We are migrating this data (across roughly 4,000 items) to a newly created, dedicated property: '''[[:d:Property:P14226|P14226]]'''.

'''What You Need To Do:'''&lt;br /&gt;
To ensure your templates and infoboxes do not break or lose their maps, please update your local code to fetch data from [[:d:Property:P14226|P14226]] instead of the old [[:d:Property:P1846|P1846]] + [[:d:Property:P180|P180]] structure. A [[m:Wikidata/Property Migration: P1846 to P14226/List|list of pages]] was generated using Wikimedia Global Search.

'''Deadline:'''&lt;br /&gt;
We are temporarily retaining the old data on [[:d:Property:P1846|P1846]] to allow for a smooth transition. However, to complete the data cleanup on Wikidata, the old [[:d:Property:P1846|P1846]] statements will be removed after '''May 1, 2026'''. Please update your modules and templates before this date to prevent any disruption to your wiki's election articles.

Let us know if you have any questions or need assistance with the query logic. Thank you for your help! [[User:ZI Jony|ZI Jony]] using [[User:MediaWiki message delivery|MediaWiki message delivery]] ([[User talk:MediaWiki message delivery|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/MediaWiki message delivery|contribs]]) 17:11, 3 April 2026 (UTC)
&lt;!-- Message sent by User:ZI Jony@metawiki using the list at https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Distribution_list/Non-Technical_Village_Pumps_distribution_list&amp;oldid=29941252 --&gt;
:I didnt find such properties, so we are probably fine. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 21:00, 12 April 2026 (UTC)
:: +1 (agreed). [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 22:19, 12 April 2026 (UTC)

== Enable the abuse filter block action? ==

In light of [[Special:AbuseLog/80178]] (coupon spam), I would like to propose enabling the block action for the abuse filter. Only custodians will be able to enable and disable that action on an abuse filter, and it is useful to block ongoing vandalism. Thoughts? [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 19:12, 13 April 2026 (UTC)

:Seems like a good idea, almost all of the users which create such pages are spambots so this shouldn’t be a problem. [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 23:41, 13 April 2026 (UTC)
:Can you explain some more (I am new to abuse filters)? It looks like the attempted edit was prevented? Which abuse filter?
:Note on your suggestion, have also reactivated Antispam Filter 12 - see [[WV:RCA]]. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 10:45, 15 April 2026 (UTC)
:: I am proposing that we activate the abuse filter block action, which if a user triggers an abuse filter, it would actually block the user in question - the same mechanism that a custodian would use to block users. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 13:11, 15 April 2026 (UTC)
:::OK, thankyou, that makes sense. And, reviewing the abuse filter 12 log, it would be helpful because it would prevent the need for manual blocking. But I don't see a setting for autoblocking? -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 23:14, 15 April 2026 (UTC)
:::: I think it probably adds an autoblock. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 00:43, 16 April 2026 (UTC)
: [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] and [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]], given that a little bit more than a week has passed and there is minimal consensus to activate the abuse filter block action, I filed [[phab:T424053]]. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 15:05, 21 April 2026 (UTC)
::Thank-you for doing this. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 08:03, 24 April 2026 (UTC)

== Advice needed: A Neurodiversity-inspired Idea/observation ==

If I want the greatest participation of others to &quot;provide constructive criticism to my idea&quot; or to &quot;shoot down my idea&quot; or &quot;idea&quot;.

What I've called it so far is &quot;The Neurodiversity-inspired Idea&quot;. At other times I used more sensationalist wording but here on Wikiversity I don't dare do that. I actually woke up with thinking about putting this into my userspace draft: &quot;Personal Observations Made By Meeting Autistic and Non-Autistic Adults&quot;.

My ultimate goal is to stop blathering about my &quot;idea&quot; to friend and family without feeling my &quot;methodology&quot; is going into any progressive direction whatsoever. My latest encounter was somewhat constructive though. A friend of a friend who worked with people presenting ideas in attempting to getting grants. I don't want a grant. I just want to figure out how I can express my &quot;idea&quot; in a way so that I can more clearly figure out what flaws it got.

At the same time I tend to overthink. If anyone thinks etherpad might be a good place and considering Wikimedia already got an etherpad at https://etherpad.wikimedia.org/ if anyone feels like they know me better in the future feel free to suggest a &quot;session&quot; on etherpad.

'''If I don't receive a reply to this in 1 week's time I will begin to explore this &quot;idea&quot; into my userspace''' unless you replied and refrained me from doing so, of course. Then maybe after &quot;developing it there&quot; I might reference it to you another future time here in the Colloquium, with my &quot;idea&quot; still in my userspace draft. This &quot;idea&quot; is sort of a burden, I'm happy I've made the choice to get rid of it and hopefully move on with my life, unless there is something to this &quot;idea&quot;. 

My failure is probably evident: I feel I haven't told you anything. Same happened to when I talked to friends and family. In danger of overthinking it further I'll publish this right now. I need to &quot;keep it together&quot; [[User:ThinkingScience|ThinkingScience]] ([[User talk:ThinkingScience|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ThinkingScience|contribs]]) 10:36, 16 April 2026 (UTC)

:Good on you putting it out there ... and hitting publish :). I'd say go for it (no need to wait), give birth to your idea and share about it here and elsewhere. Let it take shape and see where it might go. In many ways, this is exactly what an open collaborative learning community should be doing. Others might not know well how to respond, so perhaps consider creating some questions to accompany the idea. Sincerely, James -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 11:21, 16 April 2026 (UTC)
::Thank you for encouraging me in developing the idea.
::I have created a &quot;questions&quot; section in the draft which is visible in the table of contents now. My brain was &quot;frozen&quot; today metaphorically speaking in that I felt I had like a &quot;writer's block&quot; so the draft has more &quot;AI/LLM&quot; content than before. I used the LLM for generating questions. The answers are so far human-only.
::I've also created a subsection where I could add the prompts that made the LLM generate the questions. That could help people make better prompts perhaps. I've described what it is about inside of it and there are some chaotically written notes.
::[[Draft:The_Neurodiversity-inspired_Idea#Questions_that_might_encourage_the_development_of_this_idea_and_its_methodology]]
::My draft is missing stuff. Any questions that you contribute to my draft will probably help me and if I don't understand the questions I'll probably notify you and also at the same time &quot;feed them&quot; to an LLM and ask in my input like &quot;explain in simple words what this question means, what is it searching for?&quot; etc. while I wait for an answer. If you have any more feedback please give it to me here or on the Draft page, its talk page or my user talk page. Thank you for helping me! [[User:ThinkingScience|ThinkingScience]] ([[User talk:ThinkingScience|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ThinkingScience|contribs]]) 21:20, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
::Today I woke up with not only thinking about supplying questions along with the &quot;idea&quot; but also answers. ie. Is it possible to &quot;test&quot; this idea? Is it possible to create one or multiple hypotheses based on this &quot;idea&quot;?(etc.) I've thought about this before in this &quot;idea&quot; but since I'm beginning to add to Wikiversity what was previously 'locked in my mind' it's also easier for me to see what I've done so far. Thank you for this comment! [[User:ThinkingScience|ThinkingScience]] ([[User talk:ThinkingScience|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ThinkingScience|contribs]]) 09:11, 23 April 2026 (UTC)
:May I think that you should not add deadlines ; being read, and rising interest for collaboration, or even simply for exchange of thoughts, such an effective meeting event loads a huge bunch of unprobability, which time can help to… somehow diminish. Maybe, I would advice you having a central place for developping your ideas, your needs, your advances, maybe a page in your own user zone, and from time to time, depending your feeling, it could be every trimester or so, or more frequently, you could write a short account of progress (or even of no progress), or a call for participation, in such a place as this present one ; I think that will increase much exposure of your projet. Maybe also, if you can find a project name, not necessarily very meaningfull by itseilf (at least it will gain signification with time, as your project develops), that will serve as a kind-of hook, and make your announcement titles more visible. Best regards (and my excuses for my poor command of English, which seems to be unplease an anti-abuse filter, &quot;Questionable Language (profanity)&quot;, which I don't understand…). My few cents. --  [[User:Eric.LEWIN|Eric.LEWIN]] ([[User talk:Eric.LEWIN|discussion]] • [[Special:Contributions/Eric.LEWIN|contributions]]) 10:06, 17 April 2026 (UTC)
::Sorry about the false positive on the profanity filter - I've fixed it. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 10:26, 17 April 2026 (UTC)
:::&quot;May I think that you should not add deadlines ; being read, and rising interest for collaboration, or even simply for exchange of thoughts, such an effective meeting event loads a huge bunch of unprobability, which time can help to… somehow diminish.&quot;
::Thank you Eric for this comment. Trust in time is how I interpret it. I should not feel like I need to be in a hurry. I'll try to give this time. Thank you!
:::&quot;Maybe, I would advice you having a central place for developping your ideas, your needs, your advances, maybe a page in your own user zone, and from time to time, depending your feeling, it could be every trimester or so, or more frequently, you could write a short account of progress (or even of no progress), or a call for participation, in such a place as this present one ; I think that will increase much exposure of your projet.&quot;
::A central place for developing or making &quot;project notes&quot; regarding the Neurodiversity idea on my userspace, I might need that, like a diary or &quot;project notes&quot; of the Neurodiversity idea similar to my course notes regarding my experience with Coursera.
::Any actions I take are going to be related to my Userspace from now on but I'll also update the draft when necessary. Now in the beginning I might be working daily to once every 3 days on both the draft and the daily notes I plan to make.
:::&quot;Maybe also, if you can find a project name, not necessarily very meaningfull by itseilf (at least it will gain signification with time, as your project develops), that will serve as a kind-of hook, and make your announcement titles more visible.&quot;
::Thank you for the advice. I was brainstorming yesterday about it. I concluded that since I've not yet developed a methodology that adheres to &quot;Do no harm&quot; and this is my first time working my &quot;idea&quot; into a way that is compatible with how projects develop on English Wikiversity this is new to me. My methodology isn't developed and therefore trying to get attention to my project through a name can wait. Yesterday I figured out a silly title that has nothing to do with the project: &quot;Planetary Awareness Potato Cabbage Rolls&quot; or something like that. Google output read that no such thing exists so I wanted it mainly to be unique. I don't want to raise attention that I'm unsure whether I'll actually be capable of developing a methodology for but project notes is my best bet so far in tracking my progress. Every day I think about this &quot;idea&quot; but I need to improve the important parts.
:::&quot;Best regards (and my excuses for my poor command of English, which seems to be unplease an anti-abuse filter, &quot;Questionable Language (profanity)&quot;, which I don't understand…). My few cents.&quot;
::You added great points and I felt that I was helped by you! I encourage you to post again and I can understand that interacting with any kind of automated filter can be discouraging and can be for me too! Thank you for giving me feedback! [[User:ThinkingScience|ThinkingScience]] ([[User talk:ThinkingScience|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ThinkingScience|contribs]]) 16:01, 18 April 2026 (UTC)

== Add some user rights to the curator user group? ==

By default, only custodians have the ability to mark new pages as patrolled (&lt;code&gt;patrol&lt;/code&gt;) and have their own page creations automatically marked as patrolled (&lt;code&gt;autopatrol&lt;/code&gt;). I am proposing both of the following:
* Curators can mark new pages as patrolled, helping on reducing the backlog of new, unpatrolled pages.
* New pages made by curators will be automatically marked as patrolled by the MediaWiki software.
Before we implement this, I would suggest implementing a proposed guideline for marking new pages as patrolled for curators and custodians.

Thoughts? [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 16:32, 17 April 2026 (UTC)

:Agree, &lt;s&gt;also can we also allow curators to undelete pages since they already have the rights to delete them?&lt;/s&gt; [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 02:54, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
::I think the requirement that undelete NOT be included came from above (meta / stewards / central office). Having access to the undelete page gives access to information that is restricted by their policies to admins (custodians and bureaucrats). -- [[User:Dave Braunschweig|Dave Braunschweig]] ([[User talk:Dave Braunschweig|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dave Braunschweig|contribs]]) 20:12, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
::: [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]], unless if requests for curator and custodian should be RfA-like processes (that is, including voting and comments), then I have to agree with Dave above. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 22:03, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
::::Oh, I didn’t realise that. Withdrawing my comment.. [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 00:08, 19 April 2026 (UTC)
:{{support}} Seems reasonable and would reduce overhead. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 14:35, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
:'''Agree''', implement it also to [[Wikiversity:Curators]] proposal please. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 17:11, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
: I went ahead and filed [[phab:T424445]]. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 15:39, 26 April 2026 (UTC)

== [[Wikiversity:Curators|Curators and curators policy]] ==
{{archive top|There is strong consensus, so [[Wikiversity:Curators]] is now a policy. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 11:15, 9 May 2026 (UTC)}}
How does it come, that Wikiversity has curators, but Curators policy is still being proposed? How do the curators exists and act if the policy about them havent been approved yet? [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 18:33, 16 October 2025 (UTC)

:It looks as if it is not just curators. The policy on Bureaucratship is still being proposed as well. See [[Wikiversity:Bureaucratship]]. —[[User:RailwayEnthusiast2025|&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Verdana; color:#008000; text-shadow:gray 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em;&quot;&gt;RailwayEnthusiast2025&lt;/span&gt;]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:RailwayEnthusiast2025|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#59a53f&quot;&gt;''talk with me!''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 18:33, 27 October 2025 (UTC)

:I think its just the nature of a small WMF sister project in that there are lots of drafts, gaps, and potential improvements. In this case, these community would need to vote on those proposed Wikiversity staff policies if we think they're ready. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 02:08, 3 December 2025 (UTC)
:What? I thought you were getting it approved, Juandev... :) [[User:I&amp;#39;m Mr. Chris|I&amp;#39;m Mr. Chris]] ([[User talk:I&amp;#39;m Mr. Chris|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/I&amp;#39;m Mr. Chris|contribs]]) 14:20, 12 February 2026 (UTC)
::Yeah I think this one is important too and we need to aprove it too @[[User:I'm Mr. Chris|I'm Mr. Chris]]. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 15:56, 12 February 2026 (UTC)
:::I thinks its ready to made into a policy, it seems to be complete and informative about what the rights does and how to get it. [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 03:08, 15 February 2026 (UTC)
::::Agree -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 11:00, 27 March 2026 (UTC)

Let's make this the official discussion about adopting the [[Wikiversity:Curators|curators policy]] policy. Your comments are invited and welcome. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 08:40, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
: There were two similar Colloquium threads in separate places about the proposed curators policy. So I've moved them to be adjacent. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 12:42, 1 May 2026 (UTC)
{{archive bottom}}

== Wikiversity:Curators to become a policy ==
{{archive top|There is strong consensus, so [[Wikiversity:Curators]] is now a policy. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 11:16, 9 May 2026 (UTC)}}
I've looked at the discussions about the Curators policy, I've looked at the practices, and it seems to me that there is no dispute about the wording of the policy, and what's more, the community has been using this proposal as if it were an offical policy for several years. Therefore, I propose that [[Wikiversity:Curators]] become a policy. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 18:35, 18 April 2026 (UTC)

:{{support}} —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 18:54, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
:{{support}} —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 20:21, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
: {{support|Yes, please}}. Especially after when I and PieWriter proposed above, I agree. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 14:27, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
:: @[[User:Juandev|Juandev]]; as of now, curators now have the user rights &lt;code&gt;autopatrol&lt;/code&gt; and &lt;code&gt;patrol&lt;/code&gt;. Perhaps we should also include that in [[Wikiversity:Custodianship]]? [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 12:07, 30 April 2026 (UTC)
:::You meant [[Wikiversity:Curators]] @[[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]]? [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 12:15, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
:::: I agree that we must develop what rules curators should follow when marking new pages as patrolled; the same can be added for custodians since they can also mark new pages as patrolled. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 13:37, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
:::::I see, well I think you can just add this to the policy. It is not major change and it probably reflects actual practice or actual technical possibilities for those flags. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 09:20, 7 May 2026 (UTC)
:{{support}} -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 12:42, 1 May 2026 (UTC)
:{{Support}} per nom. [[User:PhilDaBirdMan|PhilDaBirdMan]] ([[User talk:PhilDaBirdMan|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PhilDaBirdMan|contribs]]) 13:32, 1 May 2026 (UTC)
{{Archive bottom}}

== Inactive curators ==

Hello, even though [[Wikiversity:Curators]] is not a policy yet, there are curators listed here that have been inactive for two years or more:
* {{user|Cody naccarato}} (last edit on 13 Dec 2022, last logged action on 10 Dec 2022)
* {{user|Praxidicae}} (last edit on 10 Sep 2022, last logged action on 12 Sep 2022)
[[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 21:14, 19 April 2026 (UTC)

:Yup, I would remove the rights. To get the rights back if theyll come back should not be a big deal. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 20:08, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
:: When they don't reply by May 19, feel free (or any custodian) to do so. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 00:28, 25 April 2026 (UTC)

== Is anyone interested in Neurodiversity? ==

Is anyone interested in Neurodiversity? Is there anyone here who is interested for Neurodiversity to be &quot;something more&quot; than it already is? Does anyone here consider Neurodiversity one of the &quot;harder topics&quot; to work on or discuss? Does anyone here have an opinion about the [[Neurodiversity Movement]]? So these questions don't appear like &quot;out of a vacuum&quot; I can tell you a bit about my background:

Many years ago I got a psychiatric diagnosis &quot;Asperger's&quot;. After I stepped out of the office and my Äsperger's was 'concluded', I stepped out into the street and thought my first negative thought(but the positive thought followed after). The thought was about concentration camps in the second world war and that the world seemed to be going into the direction of &quot;labeling others&quot;. I was unsure whether this was &quot;real science&quot; and sort of &quot;challenged myself&quot; to make up my own mind after meeting people that had been given this diagnosis. The more adults with this diagnosis I met the more I started seeing &quot;patterns&quot;.

Was it a coincidence that the first person with Asperger's I met reminded me about my father later after I had plenty of times of experience with interacting with him? None of the people I interacted with online through IRC text chat...I felt I got any clue about how &quot;their brains work&quot;. Only when I met one person from the Asperger's chat community in person we both realized that whatever we experienced was akin to the &quot;chaos theory&quot;. He told me about &quot;chaos theory&quot; while I didn't know even what that term meant but I guess I 'read between the lines'. My question that I linger on still today is &quot;did he understand about me what I think I understood about him?&quot;? That our brains had the same configuration? Most autistic adults who meet other autistic adults usually get disappointed. They think the diagnosis will help them meet somebody like themselves and then they realize the great diversity in the autistic spectrum created by Psychiatry.

I later stopped interacting with autistic communities that much, I felt that it did not benefit me. Also Neurodiversity's &quot;neurotypes&quot; interested me for a while until I realized I had &quot;misunderstood everything&quot; about them and how they are used in the Neurodiversity Movement or &quot;Neurodiversity community&quot; if that even can precisely be defined? I doubt it but if you want to contribute to the [[Neurodiversity Movement]]. My previous attempts failed as I got more and more confused. I think a community project needs a community. With a lack of that I don't think it is worth my time. If any of you would like to work on that project let me know on my talk page.

So I was kinda lost and was talking to my friend and psychologist and I realized if I never talk about my idea to anyone in a &quot;comprehensive way&quot; or show that it matters to me nothing is going to ever happen. So I started talking about my &quot;idea&quot; more. Nobody could understand the &quot;idea&quot; because I had not developed my skills regarding where to start...although the process had already started &quot;automatically&quot; and that's why I often think of &quot;well my brain sort of activated me&quot;. I don't feel like I did have a plan and this idea happened. It happened &quot;by itself&quot;. My brain reacted to what I was seeing in a video or stream.

I value interaction highly in this idea. I think it would be helpful to make a community of people who are not paranoid about stuff that can express itself like &quot;don't analyze me!&quot;, &quot;don't compare me to anyone!&quot;. 

On the contrary, more often than not those adults who were diagnosed were actually openly comparing themselves with each other and I think that is healthy in a &quot;science&quot; way if done the &quot;right way&quot; which probably means &quot;Do no harm&quot;.

I found video material is important but I'm very unsure if uploading own video material to Wikimedia Commons would constitute a &quot;reasonable&quot; use of the resources there. Maybe somebody here needs to ask more questions to me that I should answer before that happens. I also know the '''be bold''' so I could just do what I think might be ok. Though I work better in a group as long as I know what &quot;group configurations&quot; help me. This is in a non-profit way. Since the state supported me this might be a way I am trying to &quot;give back&quot; to the state and &quot;the world&quot;. May seem overly ambitious and crazy but this thing gives me energy. It gives me hope when trying to develop this idea. [[User:ThinkingScience|ThinkingScience]] ([[User talk:ThinkingScience|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ThinkingScience|contribs]]) 10:47, 23 April 2026 (UTC)

:Thanks for sharing. There is plenty of room for neurodiversity community learning. However, the challenge I think is that the intersection of those interested in (a) ND, and (b) English Wikiversity might be very small (e.g., 1!) at this point in time.
:But don't give up hope. For example, Wikipedia has many more ND-interested editors; maybe consider reaching out to see who might be interested:
:[[w:Category:Wikipedians interested in neurodiversity]]
:You could also start an equivalent category here:
:[[:Category:Wikiversitarians interested in neurodiversity]] -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 04:46, 6 May 2026 (UTC)

== Request for comment (global AI policy) ==

&lt;bdi lang=&quot;en&quot; dir=&quot;ltr&quot; class=&quot;mw-content-ltr&quot;&gt;A [[:m:Requests for comment/Artificial intelligence policy|request for comment]] is currently being held to decide on a global AI policy. {{int:Feedback-thanks-title}} [[User:MediaWiki message delivery|MediaWiki message delivery]] ([[User talk:MediaWiki message delivery|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/MediaWiki message delivery|contribs]]) 00:58, 26 April 2026 (UTC)&lt;/bdi&gt;
&lt;!-- Message sent by User:Codename Noreste@metawiki using the list at https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Distribution_list/Global_message_delivery&amp;oldid=30424282 --&gt;

== Coming over From wikinews ==

Any chance someone could help me if you are allowed to write news articles here since wikinews is going read only mode soon, thank you! [[User:BigKrow|BigKrow]] ([[User talk:BigKrow|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/BigKrow|contribs]]) 22:43, 1 May 2026 (UTC)

:The scope of Wikiversity is very broad and is basically about more-or-less any learning material. We have made it a point to not have duplicative content of other WMF projects, but since Wikinews is being shuttered, I personally am fine with writing news articles here. One thing that is not controversial at all is a learning resource &lt;em&gt;about&lt;/em&gt; how to write news: that could be hugely useful here and could involve the process of writing news stories to learn and to share back and forth with an editor or fact-checker. In fact, I'd support an entire namespace dedicated to keeping the notion of Wikinews alive here. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 23:38, 1 May 2026 (UTC)
::Thank you so much! How do I start? Cheers! @[[User:Koavf|Koavf]] [[User:BigKrow|BigKrow]] ([[User talk:BigKrow|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/BigKrow|contribs]]) 01:07, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
:::I think it's premature to start just making news articles en masse, but if you want to start discussing the topic of citizen journalism, you can do that now. [[:Category:Journalism]] already has some material, so you can start by seeing what we already have, how you can refine that, etc. You can definitely have learning resources with collaborators who want to learn about journalism ASAP. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 01:24, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
::::thanks. [[User:BigKrow|BigKrow]] ([[User talk:BigKrow|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/BigKrow|contribs]]) 01:38, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
::::If I could try and start one News Article could you please tell me how to go about it? Like what style of writing like Wikinews or something else? Thank you Justin! @[[User:Koavf|Koavf]] [[User:BigKrow|BigKrow]] ([[User talk:BigKrow|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/BigKrow|contribs]]) 01:48, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
:::::Honestly, there are very few policies and guidelines here. I think the best way to write a news story would be in a manner that is obvious and instructive. So, for instance, it's common to use the &quot;pyramid style&quot; when you're writing news, so if you were to write a story that makes it very clear that you are using that approach, that would be helpful. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 02:08, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
::::::cool thanks. [[User:BigKrow|BigKrow]] ([[User talk:BigKrow|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/BigKrow|contribs]]) 02:13, 2 May 2026 (UTC)

== Language learning  ==

toki! I am trying to add or see what the toki pona language learning stuff on here is but I don't see anything that is language learning for anything. [[User:Jan Imon|Jan Imon]] ([[User talk:Jan Imon|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Jan Imon|contribs]]) 23:13, 2 May 2026 (UTC) —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 17:29, 3 May 2026 (UTC)

:We have language materials ([[:Category:Languages]], [[World Languages]], [[Portal:Foreign Language Learning]], [[Portal:Multilingual Studies]]). They are not as developed as I think we would all like and there's not any coverage of Toki Pona, but in principle, we could and would like that. You can also see [[:b:Subject:Languages]] at our sister project Wikibooks. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 17:33, 3 May 2026 (UTC)

== Timeline format? ==

I’ve been working on the World War II articles, including the [[World War II/Timeline|timeline]], and is there a specific timeline format that should be used? Right now it’s just a table, and there’s no separation between different periods/phases of the war.

I don’t want to use [[mw:Extension:EasyTimeline]] because this will be displaying dates and not time periods. [[User:PhilDaBirdMan|PhilDaBirdMan]] ([[User talk:PhilDaBirdMan|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PhilDaBirdMan|contribs]]) 01:35, 4 May 2026 (UTC)

:I dont think we have a policy or guideline, how to format a timeline. But you may try to browes wikiversity by Google if someone was dealing with this in the past somewhow @[[User:PhilDaBirdMan|PhilDaBirdMan]]. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 12:23, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
::+1 - there's no specific guideline on how to format a timeline, it's really up to you. In my opinion I think the timeline is good. I'd personally bold the dates just to make it easier to separate it from the event description, but that's my personal 2 cents. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 14:18, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
:::I’ll probably remove links to the dates/years, they’re just Wikipedia pages that shouldn’t be over linked to. [[User:PhilDaBirdMan|PhilDaBirdMan]] ([[User talk:PhilDaBirdMan|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PhilDaBirdMan|contribs]]) 00:39, 6 May 2026 (UTC)

== Interface administrator for Codename Noreste ==

Hello, everyone. I am requesting interface administrator access on this wiki.

The main reasoning is that I would benefit from having the user right &lt;code&gt;editinterface&lt;/code&gt;, which would allow me to make dark mode changes to pages in the MediaWiki namespace, add &lt;code&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;&lt;div class=&quot;mw-parser-output&quot;&gt;&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/code&gt; to some interface pages using templates, handle interface-protected edit requests, and similar stuff. Additionally, I have some knowledge of CSS, and I would like to assist with modifying CSS pages whenever necessary, such as moving MediaWiki common.css code to TemplateStyles CSS pages.

I am requesting the maximum time that is allowed per the [[Wikiversity:Interface administrators|policy]], and I have 2FA enabled on my account. Thank you. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 00:55, 6 May 2026 (UTC)

*{{support}} Globally trusted user. ―[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:black&quot;&gt;v&lt;/span&gt;f&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 01:07, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
*{{support}} Trusted and knowledgeable. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 04:35, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
*{{support}} WV would benefit from this. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 08:32, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
*{{support}} --[[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 09:13, 7 May 2026 (UTC)

:{{Comment}} Could @[[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] delete [[MediaWiki:Gadget-WikiSign.js]], which was requested to be deleted @[[User:Koavf|Justin]], @[[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]], @[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]]? I dont think we need it. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 07:40, 9 May 2026 (UTC)
::Yes - clearly no longer used -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 10:18, 9 May 2026 (UTC)
::: I can't delete it because I don't have the required permissions to do so.
::: On a side note, if this project has a need for permanent interface administrators, I would suggest that we have a minimum of two IAs, similar to how there must be two CUs and/or suppressors (or none). Maybe Koavf can be a good candidate if I am elected for permanent interface adminship, and I believe that permission shouldn't be removed from someone's own account. Instead, a bureaucrat should do it. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 13:20, 9 May 2026 (UTC)</text>
      <sha1>4h94pz0tkj7a7rado20a2tt4ilaofio</sha1>
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      <id>2808052</id>
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        <id>10242</id>
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      <comment>/* Wikiversity:Bureaucratship to become a policy */ new section</comment>
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      <text bytes="78626" sha1="sase0kpt9tdxcmkpwwfxyf0085myejm" xml:space="preserve">{{Wikiversity:Colloquium/Header}}
&lt;!-- MESSAGES GO BELOW --&gt;
== Requested update to [[Wikiversity:Interface administrators]] ==

Currently, [[Wikiversity:Interface administrators]] is a policy that includes a caveat that interface admins are not required long-term and that user right can only be added for a period of up to two weeks. I am proposing that we remove this qualification and allow for indefinite interface admin status. I think this is useful because there are reasons for tweaking the site CSS or JavaScript (e.g. to comply with dark mode), add gadgets (e.g. importing Cat-a-Lot, which I would like to do), or otherwise modifying the site that could plausibly come up on an irregular basis and requiring the overhead of a bureaucrat to add the user rights is inefficient. In particular, I am also going to request this right if the community accepts indefinite interface admins. Thoughts? —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 23:23, 17 August 2025 (UTC)

:And who will then monitor them to make sure they don't damage the project in any way, or abuse the rights acquired in this way? For large projects, this might not be a problem, but for smaller projects like the English Wikiversity, I'm not sure if there are enough users who would say, something is happening here that shouldn't be happening. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 10:28, 20 August 2025 (UTC)
::Anyone would be who. This argument applies to any person with any advanced rights here. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 10:46, 20 August 2025 (UTC)
:I think it is reasonable to allow for longer periods of access than 2 weeks to interface admin and support adjusting the policy to allow for this flexibility. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 04:57, 2 December 2025 (UTC)
::+1 —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 16:38, 25 January 2026 (UTC)
:@[[User:Koavf|Koavf]] I agree that the two-week requirement could be revised, but wouldn’t people just request access for a specific purpose anyway? Instead of granting indefinite access, they should request the specific time frame they need the rights for—until the planned fixes are completed—and then request an extension if more time is required. We could remove the two-week criterion while still keeping the access explicitly temporary. [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 02:48, 25 January 2026 (UTC)
::I just don't see why this wiki needs to be different than all of the others. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 07:18, 25 January 2026 (UTC)
:::There isn’t really much of a need for a permanent one at this point in time [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 09:53, 25 January 2026 (UTC)
:I quite agree with this proposal, so long as they perform the suggested changes as mentioned here. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 04:06, 26 January 2026 (UTC)
:: Just to clarify, I support '''indefinite interface admin status'''. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 18:34, 13 April 2026 (UTC)
:I think there is decent consensus for lengthening this, but not necessarily for indefinite permissions, so does anyone object to me revising it to the standard being 120 days instead of two weeks? I'll check back on this thread in three weeks and if there's no objection, I'll make the change. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 20:47, 13 April 2026 (UTC)
::Sure [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 23:27, 13 April 2026 (UTC)
::Thanks for proposing this, Justin. I agree with the proposal to lengthen the interface admin period from 2 weeks but not indefinitely. Can I check the source(s) for the standard being 120 days (I'm guessing policies on other projects or maybe global policy?)? In any case, I think it is reasonable for us to adopt a similar period. However, note on the current policy discussion page notes from @[[User:Dave Braunschweig|Dave Braunschweig]] arguing for shorter periods to lower risk, that's why it is 2 weeks. But if there are projects that need longer access, that should also be accommodated. Maybe we could adjust the policy to specify that ''interface admin rights can be given for 14 to 120 days depending on how long is required and what is supported by the community''. Sincerely, James -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 08:29, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
:::There was there was no source for 120: it was just more than 14 and less than infinity. The &quot;14 to 120&quot; also seems reasonable. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 14:33, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
::: On some small/medium-sized wikis, such as English Wikibooks and English Wikiquote for example, indefinite interface administrator access for administrators is allowed, but they tend not to make changes to the CSS and JS page changes unless it's truly necessary. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 14:34, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
:::It's a good idea to make the length of this right on request or allow to be prolonged. However, IA should test large changes somewhere else, for example on the en.wv mirror, and only after testing it on the mirror, adapt it to the live version. That means I can't imagine a time-consuming operation right now. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 20:04, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
::::Sorry, what mirror is this? Are you talking about beta.wv? —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 20:32, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
:::::Not beta.wv. Basically somewhere else then on a live wiki. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 20:59, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
:::::: Wouldn't testing on a user's own common.css page work anyway? [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 21:36, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
:Change made here: https://en.wikiversity.org/w/index.php?title=Wikiversity%3AInterface_administrators&amp;diff=2807543&amp;oldid=2806289 —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 13:35, 4 May 2026 (UTC)

== [[Template:AI-generated]] ==

After going through the plethora of ChatGPT-generated pages made by [[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]] (with many more pages to go), I'd like community input on this proposal to [[Wikiversity:Artificial intelligence]] that I think would be benefical for the community:
*Resources generated by AI '''must''' be indicated as so through the project box, [[Template:AI-generated]], on either the page or the main resource (if the page is a part of a project).
I do not believe including a small note/reference that a page is AI-generated is sufficient, and I take my thinking from [[WV:Original research|Wikiversity's OR policy]] for OR work: ''Within Wikiversity, all original research should be clearly identified as such''. I believe resources created from AI should also be clearly indicated as such, especially since we are working on whether or not AI-generated resources should be allowed on the website (discussion is [[Wikiversity talk:Artificial intelligence|here]], for reference). This makes it easier for organizational purposes, and in the event ''if'' we ban AI-generated work. 

I've left a message on Lee's talk page over a week ago and did not get a response or acknowledgement, so I'd like for the community's input for this inclusion to the policy. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 15:53, 26 January 2026 (UTC)

:I believe that existing Wikiversity policies are sufficient. Authors are responsible for the accuracy and usefulness of the content that is published. This policy covers AI-generated content that is: 1) carefully reviewed by the author publishing it, and 2) the source is noted.   [[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]] ([[User talk:Lbeaumont|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Lbeaumont|contribs]]) 19:38, 27 January 2026 (UTC)
::A small reference for pages that are substantially filled with Chat-GPT entries, like [[Real Good Religion]], [[Attributing Blame]], [[Fostering Curiosity]], are not sufficient IMO and a project box would be the best indicator that a page is AI-generated (especially when there is a mixture of human created content AND AI-generated content, as present in a lot of your pages). This is useful, especially considering the notable issues with AI (including hallucinations and fabrication of details), so viewers and support staff are aware. These small notes left on the pages are not as easily viewable as a project box or banner would be. I really don't see the issue with a clear-label guideline. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 22:34, 27 January 2026 (UTC)
::{{ping|Lbeaumont}} I noticed your reversions [https://en.wikiversity.org/w/index.php?title=Exploring_Existential_Concerns&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2788278 here] &amp; [https://en.wikiversity.org/w/index.php?title=Subjective_Awareness&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2788257 here]. I'd prefer to have a clean conversation regarding this proposition. Please voice your concerns here. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 15:53, 28 January 2026 (UTC)
:::Regarding Subjective Awareness, I distinctly recall the effort I went to to write that the old-fashioned way. It is true that ChatGPT assisted me in augmenting the list of words suggested as candidate subjective states. This is a small section of the course, is clearly marked, and makes no factual claim. Marking the entire course as AI-generated is misleading. I would have made these comments when I reverted your edit; however, the revert button does not provide that opportunity.
:::Regarding the Exploring Existential Concerns course, please note this was adapted from my EmotionalCompetency.com website, which predates the availability of LLMs. The course does include two links, clearly labeled as ChatGPT-generated. Again, marking the entire course as AI-generated is misleading.
:::On a broader issue, I don't consider your opinions to have established a carefully debated and adopted Wikiversity policy. You went ahead and modified many of my courses over my clearly stated objections. Please let this issue play out more completely before editing my courses further. Thanks.   [[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]] ([[User talk:Lbeaumont|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Lbeaumont|contribs]]) 15:11, 29 January 2026 (UTC)
::::Understood, and I respect your position. I apologize if my edits were seen as overarching. We could change the project box to &quot;a portion of this resource was generated by AI&quot;, or something along those lines. Feel free to revert my changes where you see fit, and I encourage more users to provide their input. EDIT: I've made changes to the template to indicate that a portion of the content has been generated from an LLM. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 15:50, 29 January 2026 (UTC)
:::::Thanks for this reply. The new banner is unduly large and alarming. There is no need for alarm here. The use of AI is not harmful per se. Like any technology, it can be used to help or to harm. I take care to craft prompts carefully, point the LMM to reliable source materials, and to carefully read and verify the generated text before I publish it. This is all in keeping with long-established Wikiversity policy. We don't want to use a  [[w:One-drop_rule|one-drop rule]] here or cause a [[w:Satanic_panic|satanic panic]]. We can learn our lessons from history here. I don't see any pedagogical reason for establishing a classification of &quot;AI generated&quot;, but if there is a consensus that it is needed, perhaps it can be handled as just another category that learning resources can be assigned to. I would rather focus on identifying any errors in factual claims than on casting pejorative bias toward AI-generated content. An essay on the best practices for using LMM on Wikiveristy would be welcome.   [[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]] ([[User talk:Lbeaumont|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Lbeaumont|contribs]]) 15:58, 30 January 2026 (UTC)
::::::The new banner mimics the banner that is available on the English Wikibooks (see [[b:Template:AI-generated]] &amp; [[b:Template:Uses AI]]), so my revisions aren't unique in this aspect. At this point, I'd welcome other peoples' inputs. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 19:40, 30 January 2026 (UTC)

== How do I start making pages? ==
Is there a notability guideline for Wikiversity? What is the sourcing policy for information? What is the Manual of Style? What kind of educational content qualifies for Wikiversity? All the introduction pages are a bit unclear. 
[[User:VidanaliK|VidanaliK]] ([[User talk:VidanaliK|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/VidanaliK|contribs]]) 02:25, 28 January 2026 (UTC)

:{{ping|VidanaliK}} Welcome to Wikiversity! I've left you a welcome message on your talk page. That should help you out. Make sure to especially look at [[Wikiversity:Introduction]]. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 03:11, 28 January 2026 (UTC)
::It says that I can't post more pages because I have apparently exceeded the new page limit. How long does it take before that new page limit expires? [[User:VidanaliK|VidanaliK]] ([[User talk:VidanaliK|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/VidanaliK|contribs]]) 16:57, 28 January 2026 (UTC)
:::This is a restriction for new users so that Wikiversity is not hit with massive spam. As for when this limit will expire, it should be a few days or after a certain number of edits. It's easy to overcome, though I do not have the exact numbers atm. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 15:08, 29 January 2026 (UTC)
::::OK, I think I got past the limit. [[User:VidanaliK|VidanaliK]] ([[User talk:VidanaliK|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/VidanaliK|contribs]]) 17:21, 29 January 2026 (UTC)
==Why does it feel like Wikiversity is no longer really active anymore?==
I've been looking at recent changes, and both today and yesterday there haven't been many changes that I haven't made; it feels like walking through a ghost town, is this just me or is Wikiversity not really active anymore? [[User:VidanaliK|VidanaliK]] ([[User talk:VidanaliK|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/VidanaliK|contribs]]) 03:54, 30 January 2026 (UTC)

:There is fewer people editing these days compared to the past. Many newcomers tend to edit in Wikipedia instead. [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 06:39, 30 January 2026 (UTC)
:It’s a little slow, but I’m happy to know that Wikiversity is a place that I think should provide value even if the activity of editors fluctuates. If it’s any consolation your edits may be encouraging for some anonymous newcomer to start edits on their own! I think it’s hard to build community when there is such a wide variety of interests and a smaller starting userbase. Also sometimes the getting into a particular topic that already exists can be intimidating because some relics (large portals, school, categories, etc.) have intricate, unique and generally messy levels of organization. [[User:IanVG|IanVG]] ([[User talk:IanVG|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/IanVG|contribs]]) 22:16, 9 March 2026 (UTC)
:I'd say it comes down to working hard for Wikiversity, basically if somebody or a group of people will start presenting good ideas and they turn out to be provably stable.
:I even asked Google's &quot;AI Mode&quot;, what is Wikiversity famous for? Unfortunately it could not answer that.
:Simply, we have not made Wikiversity famous by presenting really provable stable ideas yet. My hope is that this time might come. Perhaps even this year 2026!
:Hope dies last. [[User:ThinkingScience|ThinkingScience]] ([[User talk:ThinkingScience|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ThinkingScience|contribs]]) 10:12, 27 April 2026 (UTC)

== Inactivity policy for Curators ==

I was wondering if there is a specific inactivity polity for curators (semi-admins) as I am pretty sure the global policy does not apply to them as they are not ''fully'' sysops. [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 03:20, 15 February 2026 (UTC)

:Unfortunately, I don't see an inactivity policy, but if we were to create such a new policy for curators, it should be the same for custodians (administrators). [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 18:45, 15 February 2026 (UTC)
::@[[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] There is currently none, that I could find, for custodians either. [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 00:47, 17 February 2026 (UTC)
:::I think we should propose a local inactivity policy for custodians (and by extension, curators), which should be at least one year without any edits ''and'' logged actions. However, I don't know which page should it be when the inactivity removal procedure starts. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 00:53, 17 February 2026 (UTC)
::::@[[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] In theory, there should be a section added at [[WV:Candidates for custodianship]] [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 00:55, 17 February 2026 (UTC)
::::: To be consistent with the [[meta:Admin activity review|global period of 2 years inactivity]] for en.wv  [[Wikiversity:Custodianship#Notes|Custodians]] and [[Wikiversity:Bureaucratship#How are bureaucrats removed?|Bureaucrats]] we could add something like this to [[Wikiversity:Curators]]:
::::::The maximum time period of inactivity &lt;u&gt;without community review&lt;/u&gt; for curators is two years (consistent with  the [[:meta:Category:Global policies|global policy]] described at [[meta:Admin activity review|Admin activity review]] which applies for [[Wikiversity:Custodianship#Notes|Custodians]] and [[Wikiversity:Bureaucratship|Bureaucrats]]). After that time a custodian will remove the rights.
::::: -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 10:51, 27 March 2026 (UTC)
:::::Yup, I agree with Jtneill, there is a policy proposal for Wikiversity:Curators, where it should be logically deployed. The question is if we are ready to aprove the policy. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 17:43, 17 April 2026 (UTC)
:::::: I agree, but we should notify the colloquium about inactive curators, just like a steward would do for inactive custodians and bureaucrats per [[:m:Admin activity review|AAR]]. What is the minimum timeframe an inactive curator should receive so they can respond they would keep their rights? [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 17:49, 17 April 2026 (UTC)
:I incorporated these suggestions into the proposed curators policy. Please review/comment/improve. Summary: 2 years, notify curator's user page, then remove rights after 1 month: [[Wikiversity:Curators#Inactivity]]. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 08:59, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
:: @[[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] I created [[Template:Inactive curator]] for this. Feel free to make any changes or improvements. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 14:29, 24 April 2026 (UTC)

== [[Wikiversity:Artificial intelligence]] to become an official policy ==
{{Archive top|After running for a week, there is consensus, alongside comments, for [[Wikiversity:Artificial intelligence]] to be implemented as an official policy. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 23:27, 17 April 2026 (UTC)}}
With the introduction of AI-material, and some material just plain disruptive, its imperative that Wikiversity catches up with its sister projects and implements an official AI policy that we can work with. The recent issue of [[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]]'s 50+ articles that contain significantly large AI-generated material has made me came to the Colloquium. This user has also been removing the [[Template:AI-generated]] template from their pages, calling it &quot;misleading&quot;, &quot;alarmist&quot;, and &quot;pejorative&quot; - which is all just simply nonsensical rationales. Not to even mention this user's contributions to the English Wikipedia have been [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Inner_Development_Goals contested] and [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Multipolar_trap removed] a couple of times (for being low-quality and clearly LLM-generated), highlighting the need for an actual policy to be implemented here on Wikiversity. I would like to ping {{ping|Juandev}} and {{ping|Jtneill}} for their thoughts as well, since I'd like this to be implemented as soon as possible. 

Wikiversity has a significant issue with implementing anti-disruptive measures, hence why we have received numerous complaints as a community about our quality. I originally was reverting the removal of the templates, but realized that this is still a proposed policy, which it shouldn't be anymore. It should be a recognized Wikiversity policy. 14:54, 10 March 2026 (UTC) —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 14:54, 10 March 2026 (UTC)

:@[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] '''I agree''' that the draft, should become official policy. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 17:00, 10 March 2026 (UTC)
:I provided a detailed response at: [[Wikiversity talk:Artificial intelligence#Evolving a Wikiversity policy on AI]]
:I will appreaciate it if you consder that carefully. [[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]] ([[User talk:Lbeaumont|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Lbeaumont|contribs]]) 22:49, 10 March 2026 (UTC)
:Agree it should become official Wikiversity policy on the condition &lt;u&gt;that point point 5 is about [significant/substantial] LLM-generated text specifically&lt;/u&gt;. Not a good idea to overuse it, it should be added when there is substantial AI-generated text on the page, not for other cases. [[User:Prototyperspective|Prototyperspective]] ([[User talk:Prototyperspective|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Prototyperspective|contribs]]) 12:37, 11 March 2026 (UTC)
:What policy is being debated? Is it the text on this page, which is pointed to by the general banner, or the text at:   [[Wikiversity:Artificial intelligence|Wikiversity:Artificial intelligence,]]   which is pointed to by the specific banner? Let's begin with coherence on the text being debated. Thanks!  [[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]] ([[User talk:Lbeaumont|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Lbeaumont|contribs]]) 11:49, 17 March 2026 (UTC)
::@[[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]] This is a call for approval of the new Wikiversity policy. You expressed your opinion [[Wikiversity talk:Artificial intelligence#Evolving a Wikiversity policy on AI|on the talk page of the proposal]], I replied to you and await your response.When creating policies, it is necessary to propose specific solutions. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 14:12, 17 March 2026 (UTC)
:::Toward a Justified and Parsimonious AI Policy 
:::As we collaborate to develop a consensus policy on the use of Large Language Models, it is wise to begin by considering the needs of the various stakeholders to the policy.
:::The stakeholders are:
:::1)     The users, 
:::2)     The source providers, and
:::3)     The editors
:::There may also be others with a minor stake in this policy, including the population at large.
:::The many needs of the users are currently addressed by long-standing [[Wikiversity:Policies|Wikiversity policies]], so we can focus on what, if any, additional needs arise as LLMs are deployed. 
:::As always, users need assurance that propositional statements are accurate. This is covered by the existing policy on [[Wikiversity:Verifiability|verifiably]]. In addition, it is expected by both the users and those that provide materials used as sources for the text are [[Wikiversity:Cite sources|accurately attributed]]. This is also covered by [[Wikiversity:Cite sources|existing policies]].
:::To respect the time and effort of editors, a parsimonious policy will unburden editors from costly requirements that exceed benefits to the users.
:::Finally, it is important to recognize that because attention is our most valuable seizing attention unnecessarily is a form of theft. 
:::The following proposed policy statement results from these considerations:
:::Recommended Policy statement:
:::·       Editors [[Wikiversity:Verifiability|verify the accuracy]] of propositional statements, regardless of the source.
:::·       Editors [[Wikiversity:Cite sources|attribute the source]] of propositional statements. In the case of LLM, cite the LLM model and the prompt used.
:::·       Use of various available templates to mark the use of LLM are optional. Templates that are flexible in noting the type and extend of LLM usage are preferred. Templates that avoid unduly distracting or alarming the user are preferred. [[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]] ([[User talk:Lbeaumont|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Lbeaumont|contribs]]) 19:56, 19 March 2026 (UTC)
::::Do we discuss here or there? I have replied you there as your proposal is about that policy so it is tradition to discuss it at the affected talk page. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 21:59, 19 March 2026 (UTC)
: {{support}} Thanks for the proposed policy development and discussion; also note proposed policy talk page discussion: [[Wikiversity talk:Artificial intelligence]] -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 12:05, 24 March 2026 (UTC)
::I think the Wikiversity AI policy shall be official. – [[User:RestoreAccess111|RestoreAccess111]] &lt;sup style=&quot;font-family:Arimo, Arial;&quot;&gt;[[User talk:RestoreAccess111|Talk!]]&lt;/sup&gt; &lt;sup style=&quot;font-family:Times New Roman, Tinos;&quot;&gt;[[Special:Contributions/RestoreAccess111|Watch!]]&lt;/sup&gt; 06:11, 13 April 2026 (UTC)
{{archive bottom}}

== New titles for user right nominations ==
&lt;div class=&quot;cd-moveMark&quot;&gt;''Moved from [[Wikiversity talk:Candidates for Custodianship#New titles for user right nominations]].  [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 23:20, 17 April 2026 (UTC)''&lt;/div&gt;

I would like to propose the following retitles should a user be nominated for any of the following user rights:
* Curator: Candidates for Curatorship
* Bureaucrat: Candidates for Bureaucratship
The reason is that many curator (and probably bureaucrat) requests have run solely under {{tq|Candidates for Custodianship}}, but that title might sound misleading (especially in regards to the permission a user is requesting). CheckUser and Oversight (suppressor) are not included above since no user was nominated for these sensitive permissions, probably. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 01:30, 19 March 2026 (UTC)

:And it's not that when someone at the beginning misplaced the request, no one thought to move it and the others copied it. Even today, it would be possible to simply take it all and move it. Otherwise, for me, the more fundamental problem is that there is [[Wikiversity:Curators|no approved policy for curators]] than where the requests are based. Curators then operate in a certain vacuum and if one of them &quot;breaks out of the chain&quot;, the average user doesn't have many transparent tools to deal with it, because there is no policy. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 07:02, 19 March 2026 (UTC)
::I am not talking about the curator page (policy proposal). [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 19:08, 21 March 2026 (UTC)
: @[[User:Juandev|Juandev]] I'll see if I can do an overhaul of [[Wikiversity:Candidates for Custodianship]], just like I recently did with the Requests for adminship page on English Wikiquote. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 22:17, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
:Yes, great idea - ideally there will be separate &quot;Candidates for ...&quot; pages for each user right group. The most important for now is to separate curator and custodian pages as CN suggests. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 11:39, 1 May 2026 (UTC)
:So maybe I previously misunderstood. Are you proposing separated pages for nominations (i.e. [[Wikiversity:Candidates for Curatorship]], [[Wikiversity:Candidates for Bureaucratship]], [[Wikiversity:Candidates for Custodianship]])? [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 12:30, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
:: Yes. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 13:33, 5 May 2026 (UTC)

== Technical Request:  Courtesy link.. ==

[[Template_talk:Information#Background_must_have_color_defined_as_well]] [[User:ShakespeareFan00|ShakespeareFan00]] ([[User talk:ShakespeareFan00|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ShakespeareFan00|contribs]]) 11:43, 20 March 2026 (UTC)
: I can't edit the template directly as it need an sysop/interface admin to do it. [[User:ShakespeareFan00|ShakespeareFan00]] ([[User talk:ShakespeareFan00|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ShakespeareFan00|contribs]]) 11:43, 20 March 2026 (UTC)
:: Also if the Template field of - https://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Special:LintErrors/night-mode-unaware-background-color is examined, there is poential for an admin to clear a substantial proportion of these by implmenting a simmilar fix to the indciated templates (and underlying stylesheets). It would be nice to clear things like Project box and others, as many other templates (and thus pages depend on them.) :)
[[User:ShakespeareFan00|ShakespeareFan00]] ([[User talk:ShakespeareFan00|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ShakespeareFan00|contribs]]) 11:43, 20 March 2026 (UTC)

:I think it would be best to grant you interface admin rights for a short period of time to make these changes. However, I still have doubts about the suitability of this solution, which may cause other problems and no one has explained to me why dark mode has to be implemented this way @[[User:ShakespeareFan00|ShakespeareFan00]]. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 20:43, 20 March 2026 (UTC)

: I would have reservations about holding such rights, which is why I was trying to do what I could without needing them. However if it is the only way to get the required changes made, I would suggest asking on Wikipedia to find technical editors, willing to undertake the changes needed. [[User:ShakespeareFan00|ShakespeareFan00]] ([[User talk:ShakespeareFan00|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ShakespeareFan00|contribs]]) 09:32, 21 March 2026 (UTC)

== WikiEducator has closed ==

Some of you may know of a similar project to Wikiversity, called [https://wikieducator.org/Main_Page WikiEducator], championed by [https://oerfoundation.org/about/staff/wayne-mackintosh/ Wayne Mackintosh][https://www.linkedin.com/posts/waynemackintosh_important-notice-about-the-oer-foundation-activity-7405113051688931329-Nhm9/][https://openeducation.nz/killed-not-starved/].

It seems [https://openeducation.nz/terminating-oer-foundation their foundation has closed] and they are no longer operating.

They had done quite a bit of outreach (e.g., in the Pacific and Africa) to get educators using wiki.

The WikiEducator content is still available in MediaWiki - and potentially could be imported to Wikiversity ([https://wikieducator.org/WikiEducator:Copyrights CC-BY-SA] is the default license).

The closing of WikiEducator arguably makes the nurturing of Wikiversity even more important.

-- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 02:09, 1 April 2026 (UTC)

:I was never active there. If anyone has an account or is otherwise in contact, we may want to copy relevant information here or even at [[:outreach:]]. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 04:46, 1 April 2026 (UTC)

:: I reached out to [[User:Mackiwg~enwikiversity|Wayne]] in January, and he responded briefly but positively (while travelling).  I wrote to the low-traffic wikieducator mailing list today and got a nice [https://groups.google.com/g/wikieducator/c/r_yIyUw6ZIA reply] from [[user:SteveFoerster|Steve Foerster]] who's interested in helping. If we can figure out a migration path it would be great to adopt at least the main namespace pages here.  
:: A few questions that come to mind: 
:: - would people want to create matching user accounts
:: - are there any namespaces (user/talk?) that should not be moved over
:: We could look at how this was done for the [[m:Wikivoyage/Migration]] wikivoyage migration. &lt;span style=&quot;padding:0 2px 0 2px;background-color:white;color:#bbb;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash;[[User:Sj|SJ]][[User Talk:Sj|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#ff9900;&quot;&gt;+&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 04:27, 1 May 2026 (UTC)
:::That's fantastic, SJ, that you've reached out and that Wayne, Steve, and Jim are receptive—and that you can help! -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 11:52, 1 May 2026 (UTC)

== Wikinews is ending ==

Apparently mainly due to low editorial activity, low public interest, but also failure to achieve the goals from the proposal for the creation of the project, the Wikinews project is ending after years of discussions ([[Meta:Proposal for Closing Wikinews|some reading]]).

And I would be interested to see how Wikiversity is doing in the monitored metrics. We probably have more editors than Wikinews had, but what about consumers and achieving the goals? [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 19:14, 1 April 2026 (UTC)

:Wikiversity's biggest issue in recent times was the hosting of low-quality, trash content. Thankfully we've done a great job in removing pseudoscience and other embarrassingly trash content (Wikidebates, for example), but the biggest concern moving forward is proper maintenance IMO. I've caught several pseudoscience pages being created within the last few months that could easily have flown under the radar (ex, [[The Kelemen Dilemma: Causal Collapse and Axiomatic Instability]]), so I'd urge our custodians/curators to be on the lookout for this type of content. Usually an AI-overview can point this type of content out relatively well.
:In terms of visibility, I believe Wikiversity is a high-traffic project. I remember my [[Mathematical Properties]] showing up on the first page of Google when searching up &quot;math properties&quot; for the longest time (and is still showing up in the first page 'till this day!). Besides, Wikinews hosted a lot of short-term content (the nature of news articles), while Wikiversity hosts content that can still be useful a decade later (ex, [[A Reader's Guide to Annotation]]). 
:I think we are on a better path than we were a few months ago, and I do want to thank everyone here who has been helping out with maintaining our website! —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 20:48, 1 April 2026 (UTC)
:For what it's worth, the group that did that study has since disbanded, so no one is monitoring the other sister projects in the same way. Additionally, Wikinews had some catastrophic server issues due to the maintenance of [[:m:Extension:DynamicPageList]] which don't apply here. Your questions are still worth addressing, but I just wanted to cut off any concern at the pass about Wikiversity being in the same precarious situation. Wikiversity is definitely the biggest &quot;lagging behind&quot; or &quot;failure&quot; project now that Wikinews is being shuttered, but I don't see any near- or medium-term pathway to closing Wikiversity. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 00:46, 2 April 2026 (UTC)

:[[w:en:Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2026-03-31/News and notes|Entirety of Wikinews to be shut down]] (Wikipedia Signpost) -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 02:03, 11 April 2026 (UTC)

== Action Required: Update templates/modules for electoral maps (Migrating from P1846 to P14226) ==

Hello everyone,

This is a notice regarding an ongoing data migration on Wikidata that may affect your election-related templates and Lua modules (such as &lt;code&gt;Module:Itemgroup/list&lt;/code&gt;).

'''The Change:'''&lt;br /&gt;
Currently, many templates pull electoral maps from Wikidata using the property [[:d:Property:P1846|P1846]], combined with the qualifier [[:d:Property:P180|P180]]: [[:d:Q19571328|Q19571328]]. 

We are migrating this data (across roughly 4,000 items) to a newly created, dedicated property: '''[[:d:Property:P14226|P14226]]'''.

'''What You Need To Do:'''&lt;br /&gt;
To ensure your templates and infoboxes do not break or lose their maps, please update your local code to fetch data from [[:d:Property:P14226|P14226]] instead of the old [[:d:Property:P1846|P1846]] + [[:d:Property:P180|P180]] structure. A [[m:Wikidata/Property Migration: P1846 to P14226/List|list of pages]] was generated using Wikimedia Global Search.

'''Deadline:'''&lt;br /&gt;
We are temporarily retaining the old data on [[:d:Property:P1846|P1846]] to allow for a smooth transition. However, to complete the data cleanup on Wikidata, the old [[:d:Property:P1846|P1846]] statements will be removed after '''May 1, 2026'''. Please update your modules and templates before this date to prevent any disruption to your wiki's election articles.

Let us know if you have any questions or need assistance with the query logic. Thank you for your help! [[User:ZI Jony|ZI Jony]] using [[User:MediaWiki message delivery|MediaWiki message delivery]] ([[User talk:MediaWiki message delivery|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/MediaWiki message delivery|contribs]]) 17:11, 3 April 2026 (UTC)
&lt;!-- Message sent by User:ZI Jony@metawiki using the list at https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Distribution_list/Non-Technical_Village_Pumps_distribution_list&amp;oldid=29941252 --&gt;
:I didnt find such properties, so we are probably fine. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 21:00, 12 April 2026 (UTC)
:: +1 (agreed). [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 22:19, 12 April 2026 (UTC)

== Enable the abuse filter block action? ==

In light of [[Special:AbuseLog/80178]] (coupon spam), I would like to propose enabling the block action for the abuse filter. Only custodians will be able to enable and disable that action on an abuse filter, and it is useful to block ongoing vandalism. Thoughts? [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 19:12, 13 April 2026 (UTC)

:Seems like a good idea, almost all of the users which create such pages are spambots so this shouldn’t be a problem. [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 23:41, 13 April 2026 (UTC)
:Can you explain some more (I am new to abuse filters)? It looks like the attempted edit was prevented? Which abuse filter?
:Note on your suggestion, have also reactivated Antispam Filter 12 - see [[WV:RCA]]. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 10:45, 15 April 2026 (UTC)
:: I am proposing that we activate the abuse filter block action, which if a user triggers an abuse filter, it would actually block the user in question - the same mechanism that a custodian would use to block users. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 13:11, 15 April 2026 (UTC)
:::OK, thankyou, that makes sense. And, reviewing the abuse filter 12 log, it would be helpful because it would prevent the need for manual blocking. But I don't see a setting for autoblocking? -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 23:14, 15 April 2026 (UTC)
:::: I think it probably adds an autoblock. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 00:43, 16 April 2026 (UTC)
: [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] and [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]], given that a little bit more than a week has passed and there is minimal consensus to activate the abuse filter block action, I filed [[phab:T424053]]. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 15:05, 21 April 2026 (UTC)
::Thank-you for doing this. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 08:03, 24 April 2026 (UTC)

== Advice needed: A Neurodiversity-inspired Idea/observation ==

If I want the greatest participation of others to &quot;provide constructive criticism to my idea&quot; or to &quot;shoot down my idea&quot; or &quot;idea&quot;.

What I've called it so far is &quot;The Neurodiversity-inspired Idea&quot;. At other times I used more sensationalist wording but here on Wikiversity I don't dare do that. I actually woke up with thinking about putting this into my userspace draft: &quot;Personal Observations Made By Meeting Autistic and Non-Autistic Adults&quot;.

My ultimate goal is to stop blathering about my &quot;idea&quot; to friend and family without feeling my &quot;methodology&quot; is going into any progressive direction whatsoever. My latest encounter was somewhat constructive though. A friend of a friend who worked with people presenting ideas in attempting to getting grants. I don't want a grant. I just want to figure out how I can express my &quot;idea&quot; in a way so that I can more clearly figure out what flaws it got.

At the same time I tend to overthink. If anyone thinks etherpad might be a good place and considering Wikimedia already got an etherpad at https://etherpad.wikimedia.org/ if anyone feels like they know me better in the future feel free to suggest a &quot;session&quot; on etherpad.

'''If I don't receive a reply to this in 1 week's time I will begin to explore this &quot;idea&quot; into my userspace''' unless you replied and refrained me from doing so, of course. Then maybe after &quot;developing it there&quot; I might reference it to you another future time here in the Colloquium, with my &quot;idea&quot; still in my userspace draft. This &quot;idea&quot; is sort of a burden, I'm happy I've made the choice to get rid of it and hopefully move on with my life, unless there is something to this &quot;idea&quot;. 

My failure is probably evident: I feel I haven't told you anything. Same happened to when I talked to friends and family. In danger of overthinking it further I'll publish this right now. I need to &quot;keep it together&quot; [[User:ThinkingScience|ThinkingScience]] ([[User talk:ThinkingScience|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ThinkingScience|contribs]]) 10:36, 16 April 2026 (UTC)

:Good on you putting it out there ... and hitting publish :). I'd say go for it (no need to wait), give birth to your idea and share about it here and elsewhere. Let it take shape and see where it might go. In many ways, this is exactly what an open collaborative learning community should be doing. Others might not know well how to respond, so perhaps consider creating some questions to accompany the idea. Sincerely, James -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 11:21, 16 April 2026 (UTC)
::Thank you for encouraging me in developing the idea.
::I have created a &quot;questions&quot; section in the draft which is visible in the table of contents now. My brain was &quot;frozen&quot; today metaphorically speaking in that I felt I had like a &quot;writer's block&quot; so the draft has more &quot;AI/LLM&quot; content than before. I used the LLM for generating questions. The answers are so far human-only.
::I've also created a subsection where I could add the prompts that made the LLM generate the questions. That could help people make better prompts perhaps. I've described what it is about inside of it and there are some chaotically written notes.
::[[Draft:The_Neurodiversity-inspired_Idea#Questions_that_might_encourage_the_development_of_this_idea_and_its_methodology]]
::My draft is missing stuff. Any questions that you contribute to my draft will probably help me and if I don't understand the questions I'll probably notify you and also at the same time &quot;feed them&quot; to an LLM and ask in my input like &quot;explain in simple words what this question means, what is it searching for?&quot; etc. while I wait for an answer. If you have any more feedback please give it to me here or on the Draft page, its talk page or my user talk page. Thank you for helping me! [[User:ThinkingScience|ThinkingScience]] ([[User talk:ThinkingScience|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ThinkingScience|contribs]]) 21:20, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
::Today I woke up with not only thinking about supplying questions along with the &quot;idea&quot; but also answers. ie. Is it possible to &quot;test&quot; this idea? Is it possible to create one or multiple hypotheses based on this &quot;idea&quot;?(etc.) I've thought about this before in this &quot;idea&quot; but since I'm beginning to add to Wikiversity what was previously 'locked in my mind' it's also easier for me to see what I've done so far. Thank you for this comment! [[User:ThinkingScience|ThinkingScience]] ([[User talk:ThinkingScience|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ThinkingScience|contribs]]) 09:11, 23 April 2026 (UTC)
:May I think that you should not add deadlines ; being read, and rising interest for collaboration, or even simply for exchange of thoughts, such an effective meeting event loads a huge bunch of unprobability, which time can help to… somehow diminish. Maybe, I would advice you having a central place for developping your ideas, your needs, your advances, maybe a page in your own user zone, and from time to time, depending your feeling, it could be every trimester or so, or more frequently, you could write a short account of progress (or even of no progress), or a call for participation, in such a place as this present one ; I think that will increase much exposure of your projet. Maybe also, if you can find a project name, not necessarily very meaningfull by itseilf (at least it will gain signification with time, as your project develops), that will serve as a kind-of hook, and make your announcement titles more visible. Best regards (and my excuses for my poor command of English, which seems to be unplease an anti-abuse filter, &quot;Questionable Language (profanity)&quot;, which I don't understand…). My few cents. --  [[User:Eric.LEWIN|Eric.LEWIN]] ([[User talk:Eric.LEWIN|discussion]] • [[Special:Contributions/Eric.LEWIN|contributions]]) 10:06, 17 April 2026 (UTC)
::Sorry about the false positive on the profanity filter - I've fixed it. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 10:26, 17 April 2026 (UTC)
:::&quot;May I think that you should not add deadlines ; being read, and rising interest for collaboration, or even simply for exchange of thoughts, such an effective meeting event loads a huge bunch of unprobability, which time can help to… somehow diminish.&quot;
::Thank you Eric for this comment. Trust in time is how I interpret it. I should not feel like I need to be in a hurry. I'll try to give this time. Thank you!
:::&quot;Maybe, I would advice you having a central place for developping your ideas, your needs, your advances, maybe a page in your own user zone, and from time to time, depending your feeling, it could be every trimester or so, or more frequently, you could write a short account of progress (or even of no progress), or a call for participation, in such a place as this present one ; I think that will increase much exposure of your projet.&quot;
::A central place for developing or making &quot;project notes&quot; regarding the Neurodiversity idea on my userspace, I might need that, like a diary or &quot;project notes&quot; of the Neurodiversity idea similar to my course notes regarding my experience with Coursera.
::Any actions I take are going to be related to my Userspace from now on but I'll also update the draft when necessary. Now in the beginning I might be working daily to once every 3 days on both the draft and the daily notes I plan to make.
:::&quot;Maybe also, if you can find a project name, not necessarily very meaningfull by itseilf (at least it will gain signification with time, as your project develops), that will serve as a kind-of hook, and make your announcement titles more visible.&quot;
::Thank you for the advice. I was brainstorming yesterday about it. I concluded that since I've not yet developed a methodology that adheres to &quot;Do no harm&quot; and this is my first time working my &quot;idea&quot; into a way that is compatible with how projects develop on English Wikiversity this is new to me. My methodology isn't developed and therefore trying to get attention to my project through a name can wait. Yesterday I figured out a silly title that has nothing to do with the project: &quot;Planetary Awareness Potato Cabbage Rolls&quot; or something like that. Google output read that no such thing exists so I wanted it mainly to be unique. I don't want to raise attention that I'm unsure whether I'll actually be capable of developing a methodology for but project notes is my best bet so far in tracking my progress. Every day I think about this &quot;idea&quot; but I need to improve the important parts.
:::&quot;Best regards (and my excuses for my poor command of English, which seems to be unplease an anti-abuse filter, &quot;Questionable Language (profanity)&quot;, which I don't understand…). My few cents.&quot;
::You added great points and I felt that I was helped by you! I encourage you to post again and I can understand that interacting with any kind of automated filter can be discouraging and can be for me too! Thank you for giving me feedback! [[User:ThinkingScience|ThinkingScience]] ([[User talk:ThinkingScience|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ThinkingScience|contribs]]) 16:01, 18 April 2026 (UTC)

== Add some user rights to the curator user group? ==

By default, only custodians have the ability to mark new pages as patrolled (&lt;code&gt;patrol&lt;/code&gt;) and have their own page creations automatically marked as patrolled (&lt;code&gt;autopatrol&lt;/code&gt;). I am proposing both of the following:
* Curators can mark new pages as patrolled, helping on reducing the backlog of new, unpatrolled pages.
* New pages made by curators will be automatically marked as patrolled by the MediaWiki software.
Before we implement this, I would suggest implementing a proposed guideline for marking new pages as patrolled for curators and custodians.

Thoughts? [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 16:32, 17 April 2026 (UTC)

:Agree, &lt;s&gt;also can we also allow curators to undelete pages since they already have the rights to delete them?&lt;/s&gt; [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 02:54, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
::I think the requirement that undelete NOT be included came from above (meta / stewards / central office). Having access to the undelete page gives access to information that is restricted by their policies to admins (custodians and bureaucrats). -- [[User:Dave Braunschweig|Dave Braunschweig]] ([[User talk:Dave Braunschweig|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dave Braunschweig|contribs]]) 20:12, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
::: [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]], unless if requests for curator and custodian should be RfA-like processes (that is, including voting and comments), then I have to agree with Dave above. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 22:03, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
::::Oh, I didn’t realise that. Withdrawing my comment.. [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 00:08, 19 April 2026 (UTC)
:{{support}} Seems reasonable and would reduce overhead. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 14:35, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
:'''Agree''', implement it also to [[Wikiversity:Curators]] proposal please. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 17:11, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
: I went ahead and filed [[phab:T424445]]. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 15:39, 26 April 2026 (UTC)

== [[Wikiversity:Curators|Curators and curators policy]] ==
{{archive top|There is strong consensus, so [[Wikiversity:Curators]] is now a policy. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 11:15, 9 May 2026 (UTC)}}
How does it come, that Wikiversity has curators, but Curators policy is still being proposed? How do the curators exists and act if the policy about them havent been approved yet? [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 18:33, 16 October 2025 (UTC)

:It looks as if it is not just curators. The policy on Bureaucratship is still being proposed as well. See [[Wikiversity:Bureaucratship]]. —[[User:RailwayEnthusiast2025|&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Verdana; color:#008000; text-shadow:gray 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em;&quot;&gt;RailwayEnthusiast2025&lt;/span&gt;]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:RailwayEnthusiast2025|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#59a53f&quot;&gt;''talk with me!''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 18:33, 27 October 2025 (UTC)

:I think its just the nature of a small WMF sister project in that there are lots of drafts, gaps, and potential improvements. In this case, these community would need to vote on those proposed Wikiversity staff policies if we think they're ready. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 02:08, 3 December 2025 (UTC)
:What? I thought you were getting it approved, Juandev... :) [[User:I&amp;#39;m Mr. Chris|I&amp;#39;m Mr. Chris]] ([[User talk:I&amp;#39;m Mr. Chris|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/I&amp;#39;m Mr. Chris|contribs]]) 14:20, 12 February 2026 (UTC)
::Yeah I think this one is important too and we need to aprove it too @[[User:I'm Mr. Chris|I'm Mr. Chris]]. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 15:56, 12 February 2026 (UTC)
:::I thinks its ready to made into a policy, it seems to be complete and informative about what the rights does and how to get it. [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 03:08, 15 February 2026 (UTC)
::::Agree -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 11:00, 27 March 2026 (UTC)

Let's make this the official discussion about adopting the [[Wikiversity:Curators|curators policy]] policy. Your comments are invited and welcome. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 08:40, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
: There were two similar Colloquium threads in separate places about the proposed curators policy. So I've moved them to be adjacent. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 12:42, 1 May 2026 (UTC)
{{archive bottom}}

== Wikiversity:Curators to become a policy ==
{{archive top|There is strong consensus, so [[Wikiversity:Curators]] is now a policy. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 11:16, 9 May 2026 (UTC)}}
I've looked at the discussions about the Curators policy, I've looked at the practices, and it seems to me that there is no dispute about the wording of the policy, and what's more, the community has been using this proposal as if it were an offical policy for several years. Therefore, I propose that [[Wikiversity:Curators]] become a policy. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 18:35, 18 April 2026 (UTC)

:{{support}} —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 18:54, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
:{{support}} —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 20:21, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
: {{support|Yes, please}}. Especially after when I and PieWriter proposed above, I agree. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 14:27, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
:: @[[User:Juandev|Juandev]]; as of now, curators now have the user rights &lt;code&gt;autopatrol&lt;/code&gt; and &lt;code&gt;patrol&lt;/code&gt;. Perhaps we should also include that in [[Wikiversity:Custodianship]]? [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 12:07, 30 April 2026 (UTC)
:::You meant [[Wikiversity:Curators]] @[[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]]? [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 12:15, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
:::: I agree that we must develop what rules curators should follow when marking new pages as patrolled; the same can be added for custodians since they can also mark new pages as patrolled. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 13:37, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
:::::I see, well I think you can just add this to the policy. It is not major change and it probably reflects actual practice or actual technical possibilities for those flags. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 09:20, 7 May 2026 (UTC)
:{{support}} -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 12:42, 1 May 2026 (UTC)
:{{Support}} per nom. [[User:PhilDaBirdMan|PhilDaBirdMan]] ([[User talk:PhilDaBirdMan|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PhilDaBirdMan|contribs]]) 13:32, 1 May 2026 (UTC)
{{Archive bottom}}

== Inactive curators ==

Hello, even though [[Wikiversity:Curators]] is not a policy yet, there are curators listed here that have been inactive for two years or more:
* {{user|Cody naccarato}} (last edit on 13 Dec 2022, last logged action on 10 Dec 2022)
* {{user|Praxidicae}} (last edit on 10 Sep 2022, last logged action on 12 Sep 2022)
[[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 21:14, 19 April 2026 (UTC)

:Yup, I would remove the rights. To get the rights back if theyll come back should not be a big deal. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 20:08, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
:: When they don't reply by May 19, feel free (or any custodian) to do so. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 00:28, 25 April 2026 (UTC)

== Is anyone interested in Neurodiversity? ==

Is anyone interested in Neurodiversity? Is there anyone here who is interested for Neurodiversity to be &quot;something more&quot; than it already is? Does anyone here consider Neurodiversity one of the &quot;harder topics&quot; to work on or discuss? Does anyone here have an opinion about the [[Neurodiversity Movement]]? So these questions don't appear like &quot;out of a vacuum&quot; I can tell you a bit about my background:

Many years ago I got a psychiatric diagnosis &quot;Asperger's&quot;. After I stepped out of the office and my Äsperger's was 'concluded', I stepped out into the street and thought my first negative thought(but the positive thought followed after). The thought was about concentration camps in the second world war and that the world seemed to be going into the direction of &quot;labeling others&quot;. I was unsure whether this was &quot;real science&quot; and sort of &quot;challenged myself&quot; to make up my own mind after meeting people that had been given this diagnosis. The more adults with this diagnosis I met the more I started seeing &quot;patterns&quot;.

Was it a coincidence that the first person with Asperger's I met reminded me about my father later after I had plenty of times of experience with interacting with him? None of the people I interacted with online through IRC text chat...I felt I got any clue about how &quot;their brains work&quot;. Only when I met one person from the Asperger's chat community in person we both realized that whatever we experienced was akin to the &quot;chaos theory&quot;. He told me about &quot;chaos theory&quot; while I didn't know even what that term meant but I guess I 'read between the lines'. My question that I linger on still today is &quot;did he understand about me what I think I understood about him?&quot;? That our brains had the same configuration? Most autistic adults who meet other autistic adults usually get disappointed. They think the diagnosis will help them meet somebody like themselves and then they realize the great diversity in the autistic spectrum created by Psychiatry.

I later stopped interacting with autistic communities that much, I felt that it did not benefit me. Also Neurodiversity's &quot;neurotypes&quot; interested me for a while until I realized I had &quot;misunderstood everything&quot; about them and how they are used in the Neurodiversity Movement or &quot;Neurodiversity community&quot; if that even can precisely be defined? I doubt it but if you want to contribute to the [[Neurodiversity Movement]]. My previous attempts failed as I got more and more confused. I think a community project needs a community. With a lack of that I don't think it is worth my time. If any of you would like to work on that project let me know on my talk page.

So I was kinda lost and was talking to my friend and psychologist and I realized if I never talk about my idea to anyone in a &quot;comprehensive way&quot; or show that it matters to me nothing is going to ever happen. So I started talking about my &quot;idea&quot; more. Nobody could understand the &quot;idea&quot; because I had not developed my skills regarding where to start...although the process had already started &quot;automatically&quot; and that's why I often think of &quot;well my brain sort of activated me&quot;. I don't feel like I did have a plan and this idea happened. It happened &quot;by itself&quot;. My brain reacted to what I was seeing in a video or stream.

I value interaction highly in this idea. I think it would be helpful to make a community of people who are not paranoid about stuff that can express itself like &quot;don't analyze me!&quot;, &quot;don't compare me to anyone!&quot;. 

On the contrary, more often than not those adults who were diagnosed were actually openly comparing themselves with each other and I think that is healthy in a &quot;science&quot; way if done the &quot;right way&quot; which probably means &quot;Do no harm&quot;.

I found video material is important but I'm very unsure if uploading own video material to Wikimedia Commons would constitute a &quot;reasonable&quot; use of the resources there. Maybe somebody here needs to ask more questions to me that I should answer before that happens. I also know the '''be bold''' so I could just do what I think might be ok. Though I work better in a group as long as I know what &quot;group configurations&quot; help me. This is in a non-profit way. Since the state supported me this might be a way I am trying to &quot;give back&quot; to the state and &quot;the world&quot;. May seem overly ambitious and crazy but this thing gives me energy. It gives me hope when trying to develop this idea. [[User:ThinkingScience|ThinkingScience]] ([[User talk:ThinkingScience|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ThinkingScience|contribs]]) 10:47, 23 April 2026 (UTC)

:Thanks for sharing. There is plenty of room for neurodiversity community learning. However, the challenge I think is that the intersection of those interested in (a) ND, and (b) English Wikiversity might be very small (e.g., 1!) at this point in time.
:But don't give up hope. For example, Wikipedia has many more ND-interested editors; maybe consider reaching out to see who might be interested:
:[[w:Category:Wikipedians interested in neurodiversity]]
:You could also start an equivalent category here:
:[[:Category:Wikiversitarians interested in neurodiversity]] -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 04:46, 6 May 2026 (UTC)

== Request for comment (global AI policy) ==

&lt;bdi lang=&quot;en&quot; dir=&quot;ltr&quot; class=&quot;mw-content-ltr&quot;&gt;A [[:m:Requests for comment/Artificial intelligence policy|request for comment]] is currently being held to decide on a global AI policy. {{int:Feedback-thanks-title}} [[User:MediaWiki message delivery|MediaWiki message delivery]] ([[User talk:MediaWiki message delivery|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/MediaWiki message delivery|contribs]]) 00:58, 26 April 2026 (UTC)&lt;/bdi&gt;
&lt;!-- Message sent by User:Codename Noreste@metawiki using the list at https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Distribution_list/Global_message_delivery&amp;oldid=30424282 --&gt;

== Coming over From wikinews ==

Any chance someone could help me if you are allowed to write news articles here since wikinews is going read only mode soon, thank you! [[User:BigKrow|BigKrow]] ([[User talk:BigKrow|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/BigKrow|contribs]]) 22:43, 1 May 2026 (UTC)

:The scope of Wikiversity is very broad and is basically about more-or-less any learning material. We have made it a point to not have duplicative content of other WMF projects, but since Wikinews is being shuttered, I personally am fine with writing news articles here. One thing that is not controversial at all is a learning resource &lt;em&gt;about&lt;/em&gt; how to write news: that could be hugely useful here and could involve the process of writing news stories to learn and to share back and forth with an editor or fact-checker. In fact, I'd support an entire namespace dedicated to keeping the notion of Wikinews alive here. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 23:38, 1 May 2026 (UTC)
::Thank you so much! How do I start? Cheers! @[[User:Koavf|Koavf]] [[User:BigKrow|BigKrow]] ([[User talk:BigKrow|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/BigKrow|contribs]]) 01:07, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
:::I think it's premature to start just making news articles en masse, but if you want to start discussing the topic of citizen journalism, you can do that now. [[:Category:Journalism]] already has some material, so you can start by seeing what we already have, how you can refine that, etc. You can definitely have learning resources with collaborators who want to learn about journalism ASAP. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 01:24, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
::::thanks. [[User:BigKrow|BigKrow]] ([[User talk:BigKrow|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/BigKrow|contribs]]) 01:38, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
::::If I could try and start one News Article could you please tell me how to go about it? Like what style of writing like Wikinews or something else? Thank you Justin! @[[User:Koavf|Koavf]] [[User:BigKrow|BigKrow]] ([[User talk:BigKrow|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/BigKrow|contribs]]) 01:48, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
:::::Honestly, there are very few policies and guidelines here. I think the best way to write a news story would be in a manner that is obvious and instructive. So, for instance, it's common to use the &quot;pyramid style&quot; when you're writing news, so if you were to write a story that makes it very clear that you are using that approach, that would be helpful. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 02:08, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
::::::cool thanks. [[User:BigKrow|BigKrow]] ([[User talk:BigKrow|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/BigKrow|contribs]]) 02:13, 2 May 2026 (UTC)

== Language learning  ==

toki! I am trying to add or see what the toki pona language learning stuff on here is but I don't see anything that is language learning for anything. [[User:Jan Imon|Jan Imon]] ([[User talk:Jan Imon|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Jan Imon|contribs]]) 23:13, 2 May 2026 (UTC) —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 17:29, 3 May 2026 (UTC)

:We have language materials ([[:Category:Languages]], [[World Languages]], [[Portal:Foreign Language Learning]], [[Portal:Multilingual Studies]]). They are not as developed as I think we would all like and there's not any coverage of Toki Pona, but in principle, we could and would like that. You can also see [[:b:Subject:Languages]] at our sister project Wikibooks. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 17:33, 3 May 2026 (UTC)

== Timeline format? ==

I’ve been working on the World War II articles, including the [[World War II/Timeline|timeline]], and is there a specific timeline format that should be used? Right now it’s just a table, and there’s no separation between different periods/phases of the war.

I don’t want to use [[mw:Extension:EasyTimeline]] because this will be displaying dates and not time periods. [[User:PhilDaBirdMan|PhilDaBirdMan]] ([[User talk:PhilDaBirdMan|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PhilDaBirdMan|contribs]]) 01:35, 4 May 2026 (UTC)

:I dont think we have a policy or guideline, how to format a timeline. But you may try to browes wikiversity by Google if someone was dealing with this in the past somewhow @[[User:PhilDaBirdMan|PhilDaBirdMan]]. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 12:23, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
::+1 - there's no specific guideline on how to format a timeline, it's really up to you. In my opinion I think the timeline is good. I'd personally bold the dates just to make it easier to separate it from the event description, but that's my personal 2 cents. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 14:18, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
:::I’ll probably remove links to the dates/years, they’re just Wikipedia pages that shouldn’t be over linked to. [[User:PhilDaBirdMan|PhilDaBirdMan]] ([[User talk:PhilDaBirdMan|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PhilDaBirdMan|contribs]]) 00:39, 6 May 2026 (UTC)

== Interface administrator for Codename Noreste ==

Hello, everyone. I am requesting interface administrator access on this wiki.

The main reasoning is that I would benefit from having the user right &lt;code&gt;editinterface&lt;/code&gt;, which would allow me to make dark mode changes to pages in the MediaWiki namespace, add &lt;code&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;&lt;div class=&quot;mw-parser-output&quot;&gt;&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/code&gt; to some interface pages using templates, handle interface-protected edit requests, and similar stuff. Additionally, I have some knowledge of CSS, and I would like to assist with modifying CSS pages whenever necessary, such as moving MediaWiki common.css code to TemplateStyles CSS pages.

I am requesting the maximum time that is allowed per the [[Wikiversity:Interface administrators|policy]], and I have 2FA enabled on my account. Thank you. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 00:55, 6 May 2026 (UTC)

*{{support}} Globally trusted user. ―[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:black&quot;&gt;v&lt;/span&gt;f&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 01:07, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
*{{support}} Trusted and knowledgeable. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 04:35, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
*{{support}} WV would benefit from this. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 08:32, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
*{{support}} --[[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 09:13, 7 May 2026 (UTC)

:{{Comment}} Could @[[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] delete [[MediaWiki:Gadget-WikiSign.js]], which was requested to be deleted @[[User:Koavf|Justin]], @[[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]], @[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]]? I dont think we need it. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 07:40, 9 May 2026 (UTC)
::Yes - clearly no longer used -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 10:18, 9 May 2026 (UTC)
::: I can't delete it because I don't have the required permissions to do so.
::: On a side note, if this project has a need for permanent interface administrators, I would suggest that we have a minimum of two IAs, similar to how there must be two CUs and/or suppressors (or none). Maybe Koavf can be a good candidate if I am elected for permanent interface adminship, and I believe that permission shouldn't be removed from someone's own account. Instead, a bureaucrat should do it. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 13:20, 9 May 2026 (UTC)

== [[Wikiversity:Bureaucratship]] to become a policy ==

Following the recent approval of [[Wikiversity:Curators]] as a policy, I think [[Wikiversity:Bureaucratship]] may also be ready for policy status.

Please share your views about whether bureaucratship is ready to become a policy, or whether further revisions are needed.

-- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 13:58, 9 May 2026 (UTC)</text>
      <sha1>sase0kpt9tdxcmkpwwfxyf0085myejm</sha1>
    </revision>
    <revision>
      <id>2808062</id>
      <parentid>2808052</parentid>
      <timestamp>2026-05-09T14:38:21Z</timestamp>
      <contributor>
        <username>Codename Noreste</username>
        <id>2969951</id>
      </contributor>
      <comment>/* Wikiversity:Bureaucratship to become a policy */ reply ([[mw:c:Special:MyLanguage/User:JWBTH/CD|CD]])</comment>
      <origin>2808062</origin>
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      <format>text/x-wiki</format>
      <text bytes="78885" sha1="7vb354bgk9rk9fen3ya47nynlbq1cvb" xml:space="preserve">{{Wikiversity:Colloquium/Header}}
&lt;!-- MESSAGES GO BELOW --&gt;
== Requested update to [[Wikiversity:Interface administrators]] ==

Currently, [[Wikiversity:Interface administrators]] is a policy that includes a caveat that interface admins are not required long-term and that user right can only be added for a period of up to two weeks. I am proposing that we remove this qualification and allow for indefinite interface admin status. I think this is useful because there are reasons for tweaking the site CSS or JavaScript (e.g. to comply with dark mode), add gadgets (e.g. importing Cat-a-Lot, which I would like to do), or otherwise modifying the site that could plausibly come up on an irregular basis and requiring the overhead of a bureaucrat to add the user rights is inefficient. In particular, I am also going to request this right if the community accepts indefinite interface admins. Thoughts? —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 23:23, 17 August 2025 (UTC)

:And who will then monitor them to make sure they don't damage the project in any way, or abuse the rights acquired in this way? For large projects, this might not be a problem, but for smaller projects like the English Wikiversity, I'm not sure if there are enough users who would say, something is happening here that shouldn't be happening. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 10:28, 20 August 2025 (UTC)
::Anyone would be who. This argument applies to any person with any advanced rights here. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 10:46, 20 August 2025 (UTC)
:I think it is reasonable to allow for longer periods of access than 2 weeks to interface admin and support adjusting the policy to allow for this flexibility. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 04:57, 2 December 2025 (UTC)
::+1 —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 16:38, 25 January 2026 (UTC)
:@[[User:Koavf|Koavf]] I agree that the two-week requirement could be revised, but wouldn’t people just request access for a specific purpose anyway? Instead of granting indefinite access, they should request the specific time frame they need the rights for—until the planned fixes are completed—and then request an extension if more time is required. We could remove the two-week criterion while still keeping the access explicitly temporary. [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 02:48, 25 January 2026 (UTC)
::I just don't see why this wiki needs to be different than all of the others. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 07:18, 25 January 2026 (UTC)
:::There isn’t really much of a need for a permanent one at this point in time [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 09:53, 25 January 2026 (UTC)
:I quite agree with this proposal, so long as they perform the suggested changes as mentioned here. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 04:06, 26 January 2026 (UTC)
:: Just to clarify, I support '''indefinite interface admin status'''. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 18:34, 13 April 2026 (UTC)
:I think there is decent consensus for lengthening this, but not necessarily for indefinite permissions, so does anyone object to me revising it to the standard being 120 days instead of two weeks? I'll check back on this thread in three weeks and if there's no objection, I'll make the change. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 20:47, 13 April 2026 (UTC)
::Sure [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 23:27, 13 April 2026 (UTC)
::Thanks for proposing this, Justin. I agree with the proposal to lengthen the interface admin period from 2 weeks but not indefinitely. Can I check the source(s) for the standard being 120 days (I'm guessing policies on other projects or maybe global policy?)? In any case, I think it is reasonable for us to adopt a similar period. However, note on the current policy discussion page notes from @[[User:Dave Braunschweig|Dave Braunschweig]] arguing for shorter periods to lower risk, that's why it is 2 weeks. But if there are projects that need longer access, that should also be accommodated. Maybe we could adjust the policy to specify that ''interface admin rights can be given for 14 to 120 days depending on how long is required and what is supported by the community''. Sincerely, James -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 08:29, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
:::There was there was no source for 120: it was just more than 14 and less than infinity. The &quot;14 to 120&quot; also seems reasonable. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 14:33, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
::: On some small/medium-sized wikis, such as English Wikibooks and English Wikiquote for example, indefinite interface administrator access for administrators is allowed, but they tend not to make changes to the CSS and JS page changes unless it's truly necessary. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 14:34, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
:::It's a good idea to make the length of this right on request or allow to be prolonged. However, IA should test large changes somewhere else, for example on the en.wv mirror, and only after testing it on the mirror, adapt it to the live version. That means I can't imagine a time-consuming operation right now. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 20:04, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
::::Sorry, what mirror is this? Are you talking about beta.wv? —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 20:32, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
:::::Not beta.wv. Basically somewhere else then on a live wiki. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 20:59, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
:::::: Wouldn't testing on a user's own common.css page work anyway? [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 21:36, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
:Change made here: https://en.wikiversity.org/w/index.php?title=Wikiversity%3AInterface_administrators&amp;diff=2807543&amp;oldid=2806289 —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 13:35, 4 May 2026 (UTC)

== [[Template:AI-generated]] ==

After going through the plethora of ChatGPT-generated pages made by [[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]] (with many more pages to go), I'd like community input on this proposal to [[Wikiversity:Artificial intelligence]] that I think would be benefical for the community:
*Resources generated by AI '''must''' be indicated as so through the project box, [[Template:AI-generated]], on either the page or the main resource (if the page is a part of a project).
I do not believe including a small note/reference that a page is AI-generated is sufficient, and I take my thinking from [[WV:Original research|Wikiversity's OR policy]] for OR work: ''Within Wikiversity, all original research should be clearly identified as such''. I believe resources created from AI should also be clearly indicated as such, especially since we are working on whether or not AI-generated resources should be allowed on the website (discussion is [[Wikiversity talk:Artificial intelligence|here]], for reference). This makes it easier for organizational purposes, and in the event ''if'' we ban AI-generated work. 

I've left a message on Lee's talk page over a week ago and did not get a response or acknowledgement, so I'd like for the community's input for this inclusion to the policy. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 15:53, 26 January 2026 (UTC)

:I believe that existing Wikiversity policies are sufficient. Authors are responsible for the accuracy and usefulness of the content that is published. This policy covers AI-generated content that is: 1) carefully reviewed by the author publishing it, and 2) the source is noted.   [[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]] ([[User talk:Lbeaumont|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Lbeaumont|contribs]]) 19:38, 27 January 2026 (UTC)
::A small reference for pages that are substantially filled with Chat-GPT entries, like [[Real Good Religion]], [[Attributing Blame]], [[Fostering Curiosity]], are not sufficient IMO and a project box would be the best indicator that a page is AI-generated (especially when there is a mixture of human created content AND AI-generated content, as present in a lot of your pages). This is useful, especially considering the notable issues with AI (including hallucinations and fabrication of details), so viewers and support staff are aware. These small notes left on the pages are not as easily viewable as a project box or banner would be. I really don't see the issue with a clear-label guideline. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 22:34, 27 January 2026 (UTC)
::{{ping|Lbeaumont}} I noticed your reversions [https://en.wikiversity.org/w/index.php?title=Exploring_Existential_Concerns&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2788278 here] &amp; [https://en.wikiversity.org/w/index.php?title=Subjective_Awareness&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2788257 here]. I'd prefer to have a clean conversation regarding this proposition. Please voice your concerns here. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 15:53, 28 January 2026 (UTC)
:::Regarding Subjective Awareness, I distinctly recall the effort I went to to write that the old-fashioned way. It is true that ChatGPT assisted me in augmenting the list of words suggested as candidate subjective states. This is a small section of the course, is clearly marked, and makes no factual claim. Marking the entire course as AI-generated is misleading. I would have made these comments when I reverted your edit; however, the revert button does not provide that opportunity.
:::Regarding the Exploring Existential Concerns course, please note this was adapted from my EmotionalCompetency.com website, which predates the availability of LLMs. The course does include two links, clearly labeled as ChatGPT-generated. Again, marking the entire course as AI-generated is misleading.
:::On a broader issue, I don't consider your opinions to have established a carefully debated and adopted Wikiversity policy. You went ahead and modified many of my courses over my clearly stated objections. Please let this issue play out more completely before editing my courses further. Thanks.   [[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]] ([[User talk:Lbeaumont|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Lbeaumont|contribs]]) 15:11, 29 January 2026 (UTC)
::::Understood, and I respect your position. I apologize if my edits were seen as overarching. We could change the project box to &quot;a portion of this resource was generated by AI&quot;, or something along those lines. Feel free to revert my changes where you see fit, and I encourage more users to provide their input. EDIT: I've made changes to the template to indicate that a portion of the content has been generated from an LLM. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 15:50, 29 January 2026 (UTC)
:::::Thanks for this reply. The new banner is unduly large and alarming. There is no need for alarm here. The use of AI is not harmful per se. Like any technology, it can be used to help or to harm. I take care to craft prompts carefully, point the LMM to reliable source materials, and to carefully read and verify the generated text before I publish it. This is all in keeping with long-established Wikiversity policy. We don't want to use a  [[w:One-drop_rule|one-drop rule]] here or cause a [[w:Satanic_panic|satanic panic]]. We can learn our lessons from history here. I don't see any pedagogical reason for establishing a classification of &quot;AI generated&quot;, but if there is a consensus that it is needed, perhaps it can be handled as just another category that learning resources can be assigned to. I would rather focus on identifying any errors in factual claims than on casting pejorative bias toward AI-generated content. An essay on the best practices for using LMM on Wikiveristy would be welcome.   [[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]] ([[User talk:Lbeaumont|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Lbeaumont|contribs]]) 15:58, 30 January 2026 (UTC)
::::::The new banner mimics the banner that is available on the English Wikibooks (see [[b:Template:AI-generated]] &amp; [[b:Template:Uses AI]]), so my revisions aren't unique in this aspect. At this point, I'd welcome other peoples' inputs. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 19:40, 30 January 2026 (UTC)

== How do I start making pages? ==
Is there a notability guideline for Wikiversity? What is the sourcing policy for information? What is the Manual of Style? What kind of educational content qualifies for Wikiversity? All the introduction pages are a bit unclear. 
[[User:VidanaliK|VidanaliK]] ([[User talk:VidanaliK|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/VidanaliK|contribs]]) 02:25, 28 January 2026 (UTC)

:{{ping|VidanaliK}} Welcome to Wikiversity! I've left you a welcome message on your talk page. That should help you out. Make sure to especially look at [[Wikiversity:Introduction]]. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 03:11, 28 January 2026 (UTC)
::It says that I can't post more pages because I have apparently exceeded the new page limit. How long does it take before that new page limit expires? [[User:VidanaliK|VidanaliK]] ([[User talk:VidanaliK|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/VidanaliK|contribs]]) 16:57, 28 January 2026 (UTC)
:::This is a restriction for new users so that Wikiversity is not hit with massive spam. As for when this limit will expire, it should be a few days or after a certain number of edits. It's easy to overcome, though I do not have the exact numbers atm. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 15:08, 29 January 2026 (UTC)
::::OK, I think I got past the limit. [[User:VidanaliK|VidanaliK]] ([[User talk:VidanaliK|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/VidanaliK|contribs]]) 17:21, 29 January 2026 (UTC)
==Why does it feel like Wikiversity is no longer really active anymore?==
I've been looking at recent changes, and both today and yesterday there haven't been many changes that I haven't made; it feels like walking through a ghost town, is this just me or is Wikiversity not really active anymore? [[User:VidanaliK|VidanaliK]] ([[User talk:VidanaliK|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/VidanaliK|contribs]]) 03:54, 30 January 2026 (UTC)

:There is fewer people editing these days compared to the past. Many newcomers tend to edit in Wikipedia instead. [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 06:39, 30 January 2026 (UTC)
:It’s a little slow, but I’m happy to know that Wikiversity is a place that I think should provide value even if the activity of editors fluctuates. If it’s any consolation your edits may be encouraging for some anonymous newcomer to start edits on their own! I think it’s hard to build community when there is such a wide variety of interests and a smaller starting userbase. Also sometimes the getting into a particular topic that already exists can be intimidating because some relics (large portals, school, categories, etc.) have intricate, unique and generally messy levels of organization. [[User:IanVG|IanVG]] ([[User talk:IanVG|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/IanVG|contribs]]) 22:16, 9 March 2026 (UTC)
:I'd say it comes down to working hard for Wikiversity, basically if somebody or a group of people will start presenting good ideas and they turn out to be provably stable.
:I even asked Google's &quot;AI Mode&quot;, what is Wikiversity famous for? Unfortunately it could not answer that.
:Simply, we have not made Wikiversity famous by presenting really provable stable ideas yet. My hope is that this time might come. Perhaps even this year 2026!
:Hope dies last. [[User:ThinkingScience|ThinkingScience]] ([[User talk:ThinkingScience|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ThinkingScience|contribs]]) 10:12, 27 April 2026 (UTC)

== Inactivity policy for Curators ==

I was wondering if there is a specific inactivity polity for curators (semi-admins) as I am pretty sure the global policy does not apply to them as they are not ''fully'' sysops. [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 03:20, 15 February 2026 (UTC)

:Unfortunately, I don't see an inactivity policy, but if we were to create such a new policy for curators, it should be the same for custodians (administrators). [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 18:45, 15 February 2026 (UTC)
::@[[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] There is currently none, that I could find, for custodians either. [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 00:47, 17 February 2026 (UTC)
:::I think we should propose a local inactivity policy for custodians (and by extension, curators), which should be at least one year without any edits ''and'' logged actions. However, I don't know which page should it be when the inactivity removal procedure starts. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 00:53, 17 February 2026 (UTC)
::::@[[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] In theory, there should be a section added at [[WV:Candidates for custodianship]] [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 00:55, 17 February 2026 (UTC)
::::: To be consistent with the [[meta:Admin activity review|global period of 2 years inactivity]] for en.wv  [[Wikiversity:Custodianship#Notes|Custodians]] and [[Wikiversity:Bureaucratship#How are bureaucrats removed?|Bureaucrats]] we could add something like this to [[Wikiversity:Curators]]:
::::::The maximum time period of inactivity &lt;u&gt;without community review&lt;/u&gt; for curators is two years (consistent with  the [[:meta:Category:Global policies|global policy]] described at [[meta:Admin activity review|Admin activity review]] which applies for [[Wikiversity:Custodianship#Notes|Custodians]] and [[Wikiversity:Bureaucratship|Bureaucrats]]). After that time a custodian will remove the rights.
::::: -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 10:51, 27 March 2026 (UTC)
:::::Yup, I agree with Jtneill, there is a policy proposal for Wikiversity:Curators, where it should be logically deployed. The question is if we are ready to aprove the policy. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 17:43, 17 April 2026 (UTC)
:::::: I agree, but we should notify the colloquium about inactive curators, just like a steward would do for inactive custodians and bureaucrats per [[:m:Admin activity review|AAR]]. What is the minimum timeframe an inactive curator should receive so they can respond they would keep their rights? [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 17:49, 17 April 2026 (UTC)
:I incorporated these suggestions into the proposed curators policy. Please review/comment/improve. Summary: 2 years, notify curator's user page, then remove rights after 1 month: [[Wikiversity:Curators#Inactivity]]. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 08:59, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
:: @[[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] I created [[Template:Inactive curator]] for this. Feel free to make any changes or improvements. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 14:29, 24 April 2026 (UTC)

== [[Wikiversity:Artificial intelligence]] to become an official policy ==
{{Archive top|After running for a week, there is consensus, alongside comments, for [[Wikiversity:Artificial intelligence]] to be implemented as an official policy. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 23:27, 17 April 2026 (UTC)}}
With the introduction of AI-material, and some material just plain disruptive, its imperative that Wikiversity catches up with its sister projects and implements an official AI policy that we can work with. The recent issue of [[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]]'s 50+ articles that contain significantly large AI-generated material has made me came to the Colloquium. This user has also been removing the [[Template:AI-generated]] template from their pages, calling it &quot;misleading&quot;, &quot;alarmist&quot;, and &quot;pejorative&quot; - which is all just simply nonsensical rationales. Not to even mention this user's contributions to the English Wikipedia have been [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Inner_Development_Goals contested] and [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Multipolar_trap removed] a couple of times (for being low-quality and clearly LLM-generated), highlighting the need for an actual policy to be implemented here on Wikiversity. I would like to ping {{ping|Juandev}} and {{ping|Jtneill}} for their thoughts as well, since I'd like this to be implemented as soon as possible. 

Wikiversity has a significant issue with implementing anti-disruptive measures, hence why we have received numerous complaints as a community about our quality. I originally was reverting the removal of the templates, but realized that this is still a proposed policy, which it shouldn't be anymore. It should be a recognized Wikiversity policy. 14:54, 10 March 2026 (UTC) —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 14:54, 10 March 2026 (UTC)

:@[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] '''I agree''' that the draft, should become official policy. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 17:00, 10 March 2026 (UTC)
:I provided a detailed response at: [[Wikiversity talk:Artificial intelligence#Evolving a Wikiversity policy on AI]]
:I will appreaciate it if you consder that carefully. [[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]] ([[User talk:Lbeaumont|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Lbeaumont|contribs]]) 22:49, 10 March 2026 (UTC)
:Agree it should become official Wikiversity policy on the condition &lt;u&gt;that point point 5 is about [significant/substantial] LLM-generated text specifically&lt;/u&gt;. Not a good idea to overuse it, it should be added when there is substantial AI-generated text on the page, not for other cases. [[User:Prototyperspective|Prototyperspective]] ([[User talk:Prototyperspective|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Prototyperspective|contribs]]) 12:37, 11 March 2026 (UTC)
:What policy is being debated? Is it the text on this page, which is pointed to by the general banner, or the text at:   [[Wikiversity:Artificial intelligence|Wikiversity:Artificial intelligence,]]   which is pointed to by the specific banner? Let's begin with coherence on the text being debated. Thanks!  [[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]] ([[User talk:Lbeaumont|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Lbeaumont|contribs]]) 11:49, 17 March 2026 (UTC)
::@[[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]] This is a call for approval of the new Wikiversity policy. You expressed your opinion [[Wikiversity talk:Artificial intelligence#Evolving a Wikiversity policy on AI|on the talk page of the proposal]], I replied to you and await your response.When creating policies, it is necessary to propose specific solutions. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 14:12, 17 March 2026 (UTC)
:::Toward a Justified and Parsimonious AI Policy 
:::As we collaborate to develop a consensus policy on the use of Large Language Models, it is wise to begin by considering the needs of the various stakeholders to the policy.
:::The stakeholders are:
:::1)     The users, 
:::2)     The source providers, and
:::3)     The editors
:::There may also be others with a minor stake in this policy, including the population at large.
:::The many needs of the users are currently addressed by long-standing [[Wikiversity:Policies|Wikiversity policies]], so we can focus on what, if any, additional needs arise as LLMs are deployed. 
:::As always, users need assurance that propositional statements are accurate. This is covered by the existing policy on [[Wikiversity:Verifiability|verifiably]]. In addition, it is expected by both the users and those that provide materials used as sources for the text are [[Wikiversity:Cite sources|accurately attributed]]. This is also covered by [[Wikiversity:Cite sources|existing policies]].
:::To respect the time and effort of editors, a parsimonious policy will unburden editors from costly requirements that exceed benefits to the users.
:::Finally, it is important to recognize that because attention is our most valuable seizing attention unnecessarily is a form of theft. 
:::The following proposed policy statement results from these considerations:
:::Recommended Policy statement:
:::·       Editors [[Wikiversity:Verifiability|verify the accuracy]] of propositional statements, regardless of the source.
:::·       Editors [[Wikiversity:Cite sources|attribute the source]] of propositional statements. In the case of LLM, cite the LLM model and the prompt used.
:::·       Use of various available templates to mark the use of LLM are optional. Templates that are flexible in noting the type and extend of LLM usage are preferred. Templates that avoid unduly distracting or alarming the user are preferred. [[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]] ([[User talk:Lbeaumont|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Lbeaumont|contribs]]) 19:56, 19 March 2026 (UTC)
::::Do we discuss here or there? I have replied you there as your proposal is about that policy so it is tradition to discuss it at the affected talk page. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 21:59, 19 March 2026 (UTC)
: {{support}} Thanks for the proposed policy development and discussion; also note proposed policy talk page discussion: [[Wikiversity talk:Artificial intelligence]] -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 12:05, 24 March 2026 (UTC)
::I think the Wikiversity AI policy shall be official. – [[User:RestoreAccess111|RestoreAccess111]] &lt;sup style=&quot;font-family:Arimo, Arial;&quot;&gt;[[User talk:RestoreAccess111|Talk!]]&lt;/sup&gt; &lt;sup style=&quot;font-family:Times New Roman, Tinos;&quot;&gt;[[Special:Contributions/RestoreAccess111|Watch!]]&lt;/sup&gt; 06:11, 13 April 2026 (UTC)
{{archive bottom}}

== New titles for user right nominations ==
&lt;div class=&quot;cd-moveMark&quot;&gt;''Moved from [[Wikiversity talk:Candidates for Custodianship#New titles for user right nominations]].  [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 23:20, 17 April 2026 (UTC)''&lt;/div&gt;

I would like to propose the following retitles should a user be nominated for any of the following user rights:
* Curator: Candidates for Curatorship
* Bureaucrat: Candidates for Bureaucratship
The reason is that many curator (and probably bureaucrat) requests have run solely under {{tq|Candidates for Custodianship}}, but that title might sound misleading (especially in regards to the permission a user is requesting). CheckUser and Oversight (suppressor) are not included above since no user was nominated for these sensitive permissions, probably. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 01:30, 19 March 2026 (UTC)

:And it's not that when someone at the beginning misplaced the request, no one thought to move it and the others copied it. Even today, it would be possible to simply take it all and move it. Otherwise, for me, the more fundamental problem is that there is [[Wikiversity:Curators|no approved policy for curators]] than where the requests are based. Curators then operate in a certain vacuum and if one of them &quot;breaks out of the chain&quot;, the average user doesn't have many transparent tools to deal with it, because there is no policy. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 07:02, 19 March 2026 (UTC)
::I am not talking about the curator page (policy proposal). [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 19:08, 21 March 2026 (UTC)
: @[[User:Juandev|Juandev]] I'll see if I can do an overhaul of [[Wikiversity:Candidates for Custodianship]], just like I recently did with the Requests for adminship page on English Wikiquote. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 22:17, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
:Yes, great idea - ideally there will be separate &quot;Candidates for ...&quot; pages for each user right group. The most important for now is to separate curator and custodian pages as CN suggests. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 11:39, 1 May 2026 (UTC)
:So maybe I previously misunderstood. Are you proposing separated pages for nominations (i.e. [[Wikiversity:Candidates for Curatorship]], [[Wikiversity:Candidates for Bureaucratship]], [[Wikiversity:Candidates for Custodianship]])? [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 12:30, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
:: Yes. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 13:33, 5 May 2026 (UTC)

== Technical Request:  Courtesy link.. ==

[[Template_talk:Information#Background_must_have_color_defined_as_well]] [[User:ShakespeareFan00|ShakespeareFan00]] ([[User talk:ShakespeareFan00|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ShakespeareFan00|contribs]]) 11:43, 20 March 2026 (UTC)
: I can't edit the template directly as it need an sysop/interface admin to do it. [[User:ShakespeareFan00|ShakespeareFan00]] ([[User talk:ShakespeareFan00|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ShakespeareFan00|contribs]]) 11:43, 20 March 2026 (UTC)
:: Also if the Template field of - https://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Special:LintErrors/night-mode-unaware-background-color is examined, there is poential for an admin to clear a substantial proportion of these by implmenting a simmilar fix to the indciated templates (and underlying stylesheets). It would be nice to clear things like Project box and others, as many other templates (and thus pages depend on them.) :)
[[User:ShakespeareFan00|ShakespeareFan00]] ([[User talk:ShakespeareFan00|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ShakespeareFan00|contribs]]) 11:43, 20 March 2026 (UTC)

:I think it would be best to grant you interface admin rights for a short period of time to make these changes. However, I still have doubts about the suitability of this solution, which may cause other problems and no one has explained to me why dark mode has to be implemented this way @[[User:ShakespeareFan00|ShakespeareFan00]]. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 20:43, 20 March 2026 (UTC)

: I would have reservations about holding such rights, which is why I was trying to do what I could without needing them. However if it is the only way to get the required changes made, I would suggest asking on Wikipedia to find technical editors, willing to undertake the changes needed. [[User:ShakespeareFan00|ShakespeareFan00]] ([[User talk:ShakespeareFan00|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ShakespeareFan00|contribs]]) 09:32, 21 March 2026 (UTC)

== WikiEducator has closed ==

Some of you may know of a similar project to Wikiversity, called [https://wikieducator.org/Main_Page WikiEducator], championed by [https://oerfoundation.org/about/staff/wayne-mackintosh/ Wayne Mackintosh][https://www.linkedin.com/posts/waynemackintosh_important-notice-about-the-oer-foundation-activity-7405113051688931329-Nhm9/][https://openeducation.nz/killed-not-starved/].

It seems [https://openeducation.nz/terminating-oer-foundation their foundation has closed] and they are no longer operating.

They had done quite a bit of outreach (e.g., in the Pacific and Africa) to get educators using wiki.

The WikiEducator content is still available in MediaWiki - and potentially could be imported to Wikiversity ([https://wikieducator.org/WikiEducator:Copyrights CC-BY-SA] is the default license).

The closing of WikiEducator arguably makes the nurturing of Wikiversity even more important.

-- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 02:09, 1 April 2026 (UTC)

:I was never active there. If anyone has an account or is otherwise in contact, we may want to copy relevant information here or even at [[:outreach:]]. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 04:46, 1 April 2026 (UTC)

:: I reached out to [[User:Mackiwg~enwikiversity|Wayne]] in January, and he responded briefly but positively (while travelling).  I wrote to the low-traffic wikieducator mailing list today and got a nice [https://groups.google.com/g/wikieducator/c/r_yIyUw6ZIA reply] from [[user:SteveFoerster|Steve Foerster]] who's interested in helping. If we can figure out a migration path it would be great to adopt at least the main namespace pages here.  
:: A few questions that come to mind: 
:: - would people want to create matching user accounts
:: - are there any namespaces (user/talk?) that should not be moved over
:: We could look at how this was done for the [[m:Wikivoyage/Migration]] wikivoyage migration. &lt;span style=&quot;padding:0 2px 0 2px;background-color:white;color:#bbb;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash;[[User:Sj|SJ]][[User Talk:Sj|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#ff9900;&quot;&gt;+&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 04:27, 1 May 2026 (UTC)
:::That's fantastic, SJ, that you've reached out and that Wayne, Steve, and Jim are receptive—and that you can help! -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 11:52, 1 May 2026 (UTC)

== Wikinews is ending ==

Apparently mainly due to low editorial activity, low public interest, but also failure to achieve the goals from the proposal for the creation of the project, the Wikinews project is ending after years of discussions ([[Meta:Proposal for Closing Wikinews|some reading]]).

And I would be interested to see how Wikiversity is doing in the monitored metrics. We probably have more editors than Wikinews had, but what about consumers and achieving the goals? [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 19:14, 1 April 2026 (UTC)

:Wikiversity's biggest issue in recent times was the hosting of low-quality, trash content. Thankfully we've done a great job in removing pseudoscience and other embarrassingly trash content (Wikidebates, for example), but the biggest concern moving forward is proper maintenance IMO. I've caught several pseudoscience pages being created within the last few months that could easily have flown under the radar (ex, [[The Kelemen Dilemma: Causal Collapse and Axiomatic Instability]]), so I'd urge our custodians/curators to be on the lookout for this type of content. Usually an AI-overview can point this type of content out relatively well.
:In terms of visibility, I believe Wikiversity is a high-traffic project. I remember my [[Mathematical Properties]] showing up on the first page of Google when searching up &quot;math properties&quot; for the longest time (and is still showing up in the first page 'till this day!). Besides, Wikinews hosted a lot of short-term content (the nature of news articles), while Wikiversity hosts content that can still be useful a decade later (ex, [[A Reader's Guide to Annotation]]). 
:I think we are on a better path than we were a few months ago, and I do want to thank everyone here who has been helping out with maintaining our website! —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 20:48, 1 April 2026 (UTC)
:For what it's worth, the group that did that study has since disbanded, so no one is monitoring the other sister projects in the same way. Additionally, Wikinews had some catastrophic server issues due to the maintenance of [[:m:Extension:DynamicPageList]] which don't apply here. Your questions are still worth addressing, but I just wanted to cut off any concern at the pass about Wikiversity being in the same precarious situation. Wikiversity is definitely the biggest &quot;lagging behind&quot; or &quot;failure&quot; project now that Wikinews is being shuttered, but I don't see any near- or medium-term pathway to closing Wikiversity. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 00:46, 2 April 2026 (UTC)

:[[w:en:Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2026-03-31/News and notes|Entirety of Wikinews to be shut down]] (Wikipedia Signpost) -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 02:03, 11 April 2026 (UTC)

== Action Required: Update templates/modules for electoral maps (Migrating from P1846 to P14226) ==

Hello everyone,

This is a notice regarding an ongoing data migration on Wikidata that may affect your election-related templates and Lua modules (such as &lt;code&gt;Module:Itemgroup/list&lt;/code&gt;).

'''The Change:'''&lt;br /&gt;
Currently, many templates pull electoral maps from Wikidata using the property [[:d:Property:P1846|P1846]], combined with the qualifier [[:d:Property:P180|P180]]: [[:d:Q19571328|Q19571328]]. 

We are migrating this data (across roughly 4,000 items) to a newly created, dedicated property: '''[[:d:Property:P14226|P14226]]'''.

'''What You Need To Do:'''&lt;br /&gt;
To ensure your templates and infoboxes do not break or lose their maps, please update your local code to fetch data from [[:d:Property:P14226|P14226]] instead of the old [[:d:Property:P1846|P1846]] + [[:d:Property:P180|P180]] structure. A [[m:Wikidata/Property Migration: P1846 to P14226/List|list of pages]] was generated using Wikimedia Global Search.

'''Deadline:'''&lt;br /&gt;
We are temporarily retaining the old data on [[:d:Property:P1846|P1846]] to allow for a smooth transition. However, to complete the data cleanup on Wikidata, the old [[:d:Property:P1846|P1846]] statements will be removed after '''May 1, 2026'''. Please update your modules and templates before this date to prevent any disruption to your wiki's election articles.

Let us know if you have any questions or need assistance with the query logic. Thank you for your help! [[User:ZI Jony|ZI Jony]] using [[User:MediaWiki message delivery|MediaWiki message delivery]] ([[User talk:MediaWiki message delivery|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/MediaWiki message delivery|contribs]]) 17:11, 3 April 2026 (UTC)
&lt;!-- Message sent by User:ZI Jony@metawiki using the list at https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Distribution_list/Non-Technical_Village_Pumps_distribution_list&amp;oldid=29941252 --&gt;
:I didnt find such properties, so we are probably fine. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 21:00, 12 April 2026 (UTC)
:: +1 (agreed). [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 22:19, 12 April 2026 (UTC)

== Enable the abuse filter block action? ==

In light of [[Special:AbuseLog/80178]] (coupon spam), I would like to propose enabling the block action for the abuse filter. Only custodians will be able to enable and disable that action on an abuse filter, and it is useful to block ongoing vandalism. Thoughts? [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 19:12, 13 April 2026 (UTC)

:Seems like a good idea, almost all of the users which create such pages are spambots so this shouldn’t be a problem. [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 23:41, 13 April 2026 (UTC)
:Can you explain some more (I am new to abuse filters)? It looks like the attempted edit was prevented? Which abuse filter?
:Note on your suggestion, have also reactivated Antispam Filter 12 - see [[WV:RCA]]. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 10:45, 15 April 2026 (UTC)
:: I am proposing that we activate the abuse filter block action, which if a user triggers an abuse filter, it would actually block the user in question - the same mechanism that a custodian would use to block users. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 13:11, 15 April 2026 (UTC)
:::OK, thankyou, that makes sense. And, reviewing the abuse filter 12 log, it would be helpful because it would prevent the need for manual blocking. But I don't see a setting for autoblocking? -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 23:14, 15 April 2026 (UTC)
:::: I think it probably adds an autoblock. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 00:43, 16 April 2026 (UTC)
: [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] and [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]], given that a little bit more than a week has passed and there is minimal consensus to activate the abuse filter block action, I filed [[phab:T424053]]. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 15:05, 21 April 2026 (UTC)
::Thank-you for doing this. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 08:03, 24 April 2026 (UTC)

== Advice needed: A Neurodiversity-inspired Idea/observation ==

If I want the greatest participation of others to &quot;provide constructive criticism to my idea&quot; or to &quot;shoot down my idea&quot; or &quot;idea&quot;.

What I've called it so far is &quot;The Neurodiversity-inspired Idea&quot;. At other times I used more sensationalist wording but here on Wikiversity I don't dare do that. I actually woke up with thinking about putting this into my userspace draft: &quot;Personal Observations Made By Meeting Autistic and Non-Autistic Adults&quot;.

My ultimate goal is to stop blathering about my &quot;idea&quot; to friend and family without feeling my &quot;methodology&quot; is going into any progressive direction whatsoever. My latest encounter was somewhat constructive though. A friend of a friend who worked with people presenting ideas in attempting to getting grants. I don't want a grant. I just want to figure out how I can express my &quot;idea&quot; in a way so that I can more clearly figure out what flaws it got.

At the same time I tend to overthink. If anyone thinks etherpad might be a good place and considering Wikimedia already got an etherpad at https://etherpad.wikimedia.org/ if anyone feels like they know me better in the future feel free to suggest a &quot;session&quot; on etherpad.

'''If I don't receive a reply to this in 1 week's time I will begin to explore this &quot;idea&quot; into my userspace''' unless you replied and refrained me from doing so, of course. Then maybe after &quot;developing it there&quot; I might reference it to you another future time here in the Colloquium, with my &quot;idea&quot; still in my userspace draft. This &quot;idea&quot; is sort of a burden, I'm happy I've made the choice to get rid of it and hopefully move on with my life, unless there is something to this &quot;idea&quot;. 

My failure is probably evident: I feel I haven't told you anything. Same happened to when I talked to friends and family. In danger of overthinking it further I'll publish this right now. I need to &quot;keep it together&quot; [[User:ThinkingScience|ThinkingScience]] ([[User talk:ThinkingScience|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ThinkingScience|contribs]]) 10:36, 16 April 2026 (UTC)

:Good on you putting it out there ... and hitting publish :). I'd say go for it (no need to wait), give birth to your idea and share about it here and elsewhere. Let it take shape and see where it might go. In many ways, this is exactly what an open collaborative learning community should be doing. Others might not know well how to respond, so perhaps consider creating some questions to accompany the idea. Sincerely, James -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 11:21, 16 April 2026 (UTC)
::Thank you for encouraging me in developing the idea.
::I have created a &quot;questions&quot; section in the draft which is visible in the table of contents now. My brain was &quot;frozen&quot; today metaphorically speaking in that I felt I had like a &quot;writer's block&quot; so the draft has more &quot;AI/LLM&quot; content than before. I used the LLM for generating questions. The answers are so far human-only.
::I've also created a subsection where I could add the prompts that made the LLM generate the questions. That could help people make better prompts perhaps. I've described what it is about inside of it and there are some chaotically written notes.
::[[Draft:The_Neurodiversity-inspired_Idea#Questions_that_might_encourage_the_development_of_this_idea_and_its_methodology]]
::My draft is missing stuff. Any questions that you contribute to my draft will probably help me and if I don't understand the questions I'll probably notify you and also at the same time &quot;feed them&quot; to an LLM and ask in my input like &quot;explain in simple words what this question means, what is it searching for?&quot; etc. while I wait for an answer. If you have any more feedback please give it to me here or on the Draft page, its talk page or my user talk page. Thank you for helping me! [[User:ThinkingScience|ThinkingScience]] ([[User talk:ThinkingScience|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ThinkingScience|contribs]]) 21:20, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
::Today I woke up with not only thinking about supplying questions along with the &quot;idea&quot; but also answers. ie. Is it possible to &quot;test&quot; this idea? Is it possible to create one or multiple hypotheses based on this &quot;idea&quot;?(etc.) I've thought about this before in this &quot;idea&quot; but since I'm beginning to add to Wikiversity what was previously 'locked in my mind' it's also easier for me to see what I've done so far. Thank you for this comment! [[User:ThinkingScience|ThinkingScience]] ([[User talk:ThinkingScience|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ThinkingScience|contribs]]) 09:11, 23 April 2026 (UTC)
:May I think that you should not add deadlines ; being read, and rising interest for collaboration, or even simply for exchange of thoughts, such an effective meeting event loads a huge bunch of unprobability, which time can help to… somehow diminish. Maybe, I would advice you having a central place for developping your ideas, your needs, your advances, maybe a page in your own user zone, and from time to time, depending your feeling, it could be every trimester or so, or more frequently, you could write a short account of progress (or even of no progress), or a call for participation, in such a place as this present one ; I think that will increase much exposure of your projet. Maybe also, if you can find a project name, not necessarily very meaningfull by itseilf (at least it will gain signification with time, as your project develops), that will serve as a kind-of hook, and make your announcement titles more visible. Best regards (and my excuses for my poor command of English, which seems to be unplease an anti-abuse filter, &quot;Questionable Language (profanity)&quot;, which I don't understand…). My few cents. --  [[User:Eric.LEWIN|Eric.LEWIN]] ([[User talk:Eric.LEWIN|discussion]] • [[Special:Contributions/Eric.LEWIN|contributions]]) 10:06, 17 April 2026 (UTC)
::Sorry about the false positive on the profanity filter - I've fixed it. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 10:26, 17 April 2026 (UTC)
:::&quot;May I think that you should not add deadlines ; being read, and rising interest for collaboration, or even simply for exchange of thoughts, such an effective meeting event loads a huge bunch of unprobability, which time can help to… somehow diminish.&quot;
::Thank you Eric for this comment. Trust in time is how I interpret it. I should not feel like I need to be in a hurry. I'll try to give this time. Thank you!
:::&quot;Maybe, I would advice you having a central place for developping your ideas, your needs, your advances, maybe a page in your own user zone, and from time to time, depending your feeling, it could be every trimester or so, or more frequently, you could write a short account of progress (or even of no progress), or a call for participation, in such a place as this present one ; I think that will increase much exposure of your projet.&quot;
::A central place for developing or making &quot;project notes&quot; regarding the Neurodiversity idea on my userspace, I might need that, like a diary or &quot;project notes&quot; of the Neurodiversity idea similar to my course notes regarding my experience with Coursera.
::Any actions I take are going to be related to my Userspace from now on but I'll also update the draft when necessary. Now in the beginning I might be working daily to once every 3 days on both the draft and the daily notes I plan to make.
:::&quot;Maybe also, if you can find a project name, not necessarily very meaningfull by itseilf (at least it will gain signification with time, as your project develops), that will serve as a kind-of hook, and make your announcement titles more visible.&quot;
::Thank you for the advice. I was brainstorming yesterday about it. I concluded that since I've not yet developed a methodology that adheres to &quot;Do no harm&quot; and this is my first time working my &quot;idea&quot; into a way that is compatible with how projects develop on English Wikiversity this is new to me. My methodology isn't developed and therefore trying to get attention to my project through a name can wait. Yesterday I figured out a silly title that has nothing to do with the project: &quot;Planetary Awareness Potato Cabbage Rolls&quot; or something like that. Google output read that no such thing exists so I wanted it mainly to be unique. I don't want to raise attention that I'm unsure whether I'll actually be capable of developing a methodology for but project notes is my best bet so far in tracking my progress. Every day I think about this &quot;idea&quot; but I need to improve the important parts.
:::&quot;Best regards (and my excuses for my poor command of English, which seems to be unplease an anti-abuse filter, &quot;Questionable Language (profanity)&quot;, which I don't understand…). My few cents.&quot;
::You added great points and I felt that I was helped by you! I encourage you to post again and I can understand that interacting with any kind of automated filter can be discouraging and can be for me too! Thank you for giving me feedback! [[User:ThinkingScience|ThinkingScience]] ([[User talk:ThinkingScience|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ThinkingScience|contribs]]) 16:01, 18 April 2026 (UTC)

== Add some user rights to the curator user group? ==

By default, only custodians have the ability to mark new pages as patrolled (&lt;code&gt;patrol&lt;/code&gt;) and have their own page creations automatically marked as patrolled (&lt;code&gt;autopatrol&lt;/code&gt;). I am proposing both of the following:
* Curators can mark new pages as patrolled, helping on reducing the backlog of new, unpatrolled pages.
* New pages made by curators will be automatically marked as patrolled by the MediaWiki software.
Before we implement this, I would suggest implementing a proposed guideline for marking new pages as patrolled for curators and custodians.

Thoughts? [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 16:32, 17 April 2026 (UTC)

:Agree, &lt;s&gt;also can we also allow curators to undelete pages since they already have the rights to delete them?&lt;/s&gt; [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 02:54, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
::I think the requirement that undelete NOT be included came from above (meta / stewards / central office). Having access to the undelete page gives access to information that is restricted by their policies to admins (custodians and bureaucrats). -- [[User:Dave Braunschweig|Dave Braunschweig]] ([[User talk:Dave Braunschweig|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dave Braunschweig|contribs]]) 20:12, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
::: [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]], unless if requests for curator and custodian should be RfA-like processes (that is, including voting and comments), then I have to agree with Dave above. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 22:03, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
::::Oh, I didn’t realise that. Withdrawing my comment.. [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 00:08, 19 April 2026 (UTC)
:{{support}} Seems reasonable and would reduce overhead. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 14:35, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
:'''Agree''', implement it also to [[Wikiversity:Curators]] proposal please. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 17:11, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
: I went ahead and filed [[phab:T424445]]. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 15:39, 26 April 2026 (UTC)

== [[Wikiversity:Curators|Curators and curators policy]] ==
{{archive top|There is strong consensus, so [[Wikiversity:Curators]] is now a policy. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 11:15, 9 May 2026 (UTC)}}
How does it come, that Wikiversity has curators, but Curators policy is still being proposed? How do the curators exists and act if the policy about them havent been approved yet? [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 18:33, 16 October 2025 (UTC)

:It looks as if it is not just curators. The policy on Bureaucratship is still being proposed as well. See [[Wikiversity:Bureaucratship]]. —[[User:RailwayEnthusiast2025|&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Verdana; color:#008000; text-shadow:gray 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em;&quot;&gt;RailwayEnthusiast2025&lt;/span&gt;]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:RailwayEnthusiast2025|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#59a53f&quot;&gt;''talk with me!''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 18:33, 27 October 2025 (UTC)

:I think its just the nature of a small WMF sister project in that there are lots of drafts, gaps, and potential improvements. In this case, these community would need to vote on those proposed Wikiversity staff policies if we think they're ready. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 02:08, 3 December 2025 (UTC)
:What? I thought you were getting it approved, Juandev... :) [[User:I&amp;#39;m Mr. Chris|I&amp;#39;m Mr. Chris]] ([[User talk:I&amp;#39;m Mr. Chris|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/I&amp;#39;m Mr. Chris|contribs]]) 14:20, 12 February 2026 (UTC)
::Yeah I think this one is important too and we need to aprove it too @[[User:I'm Mr. Chris|I'm Mr. Chris]]. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 15:56, 12 February 2026 (UTC)
:::I thinks its ready to made into a policy, it seems to be complete and informative about what the rights does and how to get it. [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 03:08, 15 February 2026 (UTC)
::::Agree -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 11:00, 27 March 2026 (UTC)

Let's make this the official discussion about adopting the [[Wikiversity:Curators|curators policy]] policy. Your comments are invited and welcome. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 08:40, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
: There were two similar Colloquium threads in separate places about the proposed curators policy. So I've moved them to be adjacent. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 12:42, 1 May 2026 (UTC)
{{archive bottom}}

== Wikiversity:Curators to become a policy ==
{{archive top|There is strong consensus, so [[Wikiversity:Curators]] is now a policy. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 11:16, 9 May 2026 (UTC)}}
I've looked at the discussions about the Curators policy, I've looked at the practices, and it seems to me that there is no dispute about the wording of the policy, and what's more, the community has been using this proposal as if it were an offical policy for several years. Therefore, I propose that [[Wikiversity:Curators]] become a policy. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 18:35, 18 April 2026 (UTC)

:{{support}} —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 18:54, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
:{{support}} —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 20:21, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
: {{support|Yes, please}}. Especially after when I and PieWriter proposed above, I agree. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 14:27, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
:: @[[User:Juandev|Juandev]]; as of now, curators now have the user rights &lt;code&gt;autopatrol&lt;/code&gt; and &lt;code&gt;patrol&lt;/code&gt;. Perhaps we should also include that in [[Wikiversity:Custodianship]]? [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 12:07, 30 April 2026 (UTC)
:::You meant [[Wikiversity:Curators]] @[[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]]? [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 12:15, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
:::: I agree that we must develop what rules curators should follow when marking new pages as patrolled; the same can be added for custodians since they can also mark new pages as patrolled. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 13:37, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
:::::I see, well I think you can just add this to the policy. It is not major change and it probably reflects actual practice or actual technical possibilities for those flags. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 09:20, 7 May 2026 (UTC)
:{{support}} -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 12:42, 1 May 2026 (UTC)
:{{Support}} per nom. [[User:PhilDaBirdMan|PhilDaBirdMan]] ([[User talk:PhilDaBirdMan|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PhilDaBirdMan|contribs]]) 13:32, 1 May 2026 (UTC)
{{Archive bottom}}

== Inactive curators ==

Hello, even though [[Wikiversity:Curators]] is not a policy yet, there are curators listed here that have been inactive for two years or more:
* {{user|Cody naccarato}} (last edit on 13 Dec 2022, last logged action on 10 Dec 2022)
* {{user|Praxidicae}} (last edit on 10 Sep 2022, last logged action on 12 Sep 2022)
[[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 21:14, 19 April 2026 (UTC)

:Yup, I would remove the rights. To get the rights back if theyll come back should not be a big deal. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 20:08, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
:: When they don't reply by May 19, feel free (or any custodian) to do so. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 00:28, 25 April 2026 (UTC)

== Is anyone interested in Neurodiversity? ==

Is anyone interested in Neurodiversity? Is there anyone here who is interested for Neurodiversity to be &quot;something more&quot; than it already is? Does anyone here consider Neurodiversity one of the &quot;harder topics&quot; to work on or discuss? Does anyone here have an opinion about the [[Neurodiversity Movement]]? So these questions don't appear like &quot;out of a vacuum&quot; I can tell you a bit about my background:

Many years ago I got a psychiatric diagnosis &quot;Asperger's&quot;. After I stepped out of the office and my Äsperger's was 'concluded', I stepped out into the street and thought my first negative thought(but the positive thought followed after). The thought was about concentration camps in the second world war and that the world seemed to be going into the direction of &quot;labeling others&quot;. I was unsure whether this was &quot;real science&quot; and sort of &quot;challenged myself&quot; to make up my own mind after meeting people that had been given this diagnosis. The more adults with this diagnosis I met the more I started seeing &quot;patterns&quot;.

Was it a coincidence that the first person with Asperger's I met reminded me about my father later after I had plenty of times of experience with interacting with him? None of the people I interacted with online through IRC text chat...I felt I got any clue about how &quot;their brains work&quot;. Only when I met one person from the Asperger's chat community in person we both realized that whatever we experienced was akin to the &quot;chaos theory&quot;. He told me about &quot;chaos theory&quot; while I didn't know even what that term meant but I guess I 'read between the lines'. My question that I linger on still today is &quot;did he understand about me what I think I understood about him?&quot;? That our brains had the same configuration? Most autistic adults who meet other autistic adults usually get disappointed. They think the diagnosis will help them meet somebody like themselves and then they realize the great diversity in the autistic spectrum created by Psychiatry.

I later stopped interacting with autistic communities that much, I felt that it did not benefit me. Also Neurodiversity's &quot;neurotypes&quot; interested me for a while until I realized I had &quot;misunderstood everything&quot; about them and how they are used in the Neurodiversity Movement or &quot;Neurodiversity community&quot; if that even can precisely be defined? I doubt it but if you want to contribute to the [[Neurodiversity Movement]]. My previous attempts failed as I got more and more confused. I think a community project needs a community. With a lack of that I don't think it is worth my time. If any of you would like to work on that project let me know on my talk page.

So I was kinda lost and was talking to my friend and psychologist and I realized if I never talk about my idea to anyone in a &quot;comprehensive way&quot; or show that it matters to me nothing is going to ever happen. So I started talking about my &quot;idea&quot; more. Nobody could understand the &quot;idea&quot; because I had not developed my skills regarding where to start...although the process had already started &quot;automatically&quot; and that's why I often think of &quot;well my brain sort of activated me&quot;. I don't feel like I did have a plan and this idea happened. It happened &quot;by itself&quot;. My brain reacted to what I was seeing in a video or stream.

I value interaction highly in this idea. I think it would be helpful to make a community of people who are not paranoid about stuff that can express itself like &quot;don't analyze me!&quot;, &quot;don't compare me to anyone!&quot;. 

On the contrary, more often than not those adults who were diagnosed were actually openly comparing themselves with each other and I think that is healthy in a &quot;science&quot; way if done the &quot;right way&quot; which probably means &quot;Do no harm&quot;.

I found video material is important but I'm very unsure if uploading own video material to Wikimedia Commons would constitute a &quot;reasonable&quot; use of the resources there. Maybe somebody here needs to ask more questions to me that I should answer before that happens. I also know the '''be bold''' so I could just do what I think might be ok. Though I work better in a group as long as I know what &quot;group configurations&quot; help me. This is in a non-profit way. Since the state supported me this might be a way I am trying to &quot;give back&quot; to the state and &quot;the world&quot;. May seem overly ambitious and crazy but this thing gives me energy. It gives me hope when trying to develop this idea. [[User:ThinkingScience|ThinkingScience]] ([[User talk:ThinkingScience|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ThinkingScience|contribs]]) 10:47, 23 April 2026 (UTC)

:Thanks for sharing. There is plenty of room for neurodiversity community learning. However, the challenge I think is that the intersection of those interested in (a) ND, and (b) English Wikiversity might be very small (e.g., 1!) at this point in time.
:But don't give up hope. For example, Wikipedia has many more ND-interested editors; maybe consider reaching out to see who might be interested:
:[[w:Category:Wikipedians interested in neurodiversity]]
:You could also start an equivalent category here:
:[[:Category:Wikiversitarians interested in neurodiversity]] -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 04:46, 6 May 2026 (UTC)

== Request for comment (global AI policy) ==

&lt;bdi lang=&quot;en&quot; dir=&quot;ltr&quot; class=&quot;mw-content-ltr&quot;&gt;A [[:m:Requests for comment/Artificial intelligence policy|request for comment]] is currently being held to decide on a global AI policy. {{int:Feedback-thanks-title}} [[User:MediaWiki message delivery|MediaWiki message delivery]] ([[User talk:MediaWiki message delivery|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/MediaWiki message delivery|contribs]]) 00:58, 26 April 2026 (UTC)&lt;/bdi&gt;
&lt;!-- Message sent by User:Codename Noreste@metawiki using the list at https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Distribution_list/Global_message_delivery&amp;oldid=30424282 --&gt;

== Coming over From wikinews ==

Any chance someone could help me if you are allowed to write news articles here since wikinews is going read only mode soon, thank you! [[User:BigKrow|BigKrow]] ([[User talk:BigKrow|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/BigKrow|contribs]]) 22:43, 1 May 2026 (UTC)

:The scope of Wikiversity is very broad and is basically about more-or-less any learning material. We have made it a point to not have duplicative content of other WMF projects, but since Wikinews is being shuttered, I personally am fine with writing news articles here. One thing that is not controversial at all is a learning resource &lt;em&gt;about&lt;/em&gt; how to write news: that could be hugely useful here and could involve the process of writing news stories to learn and to share back and forth with an editor or fact-checker. In fact, I'd support an entire namespace dedicated to keeping the notion of Wikinews alive here. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 23:38, 1 May 2026 (UTC)
::Thank you so much! How do I start? Cheers! @[[User:Koavf|Koavf]] [[User:BigKrow|BigKrow]] ([[User talk:BigKrow|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/BigKrow|contribs]]) 01:07, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
:::I think it's premature to start just making news articles en masse, but if you want to start discussing the topic of citizen journalism, you can do that now. [[:Category:Journalism]] already has some material, so you can start by seeing what we already have, how you can refine that, etc. You can definitely have learning resources with collaborators who want to learn about journalism ASAP. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 01:24, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
::::thanks. [[User:BigKrow|BigKrow]] ([[User talk:BigKrow|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/BigKrow|contribs]]) 01:38, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
::::If I could try and start one News Article could you please tell me how to go about it? Like what style of writing like Wikinews or something else? Thank you Justin! @[[User:Koavf|Koavf]] [[User:BigKrow|BigKrow]] ([[User talk:BigKrow|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/BigKrow|contribs]]) 01:48, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
:::::Honestly, there are very few policies and guidelines here. I think the best way to write a news story would be in a manner that is obvious and instructive. So, for instance, it's common to use the &quot;pyramid style&quot; when you're writing news, so if you were to write a story that makes it very clear that you are using that approach, that would be helpful. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 02:08, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
::::::cool thanks. [[User:BigKrow|BigKrow]] ([[User talk:BigKrow|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/BigKrow|contribs]]) 02:13, 2 May 2026 (UTC)

== Language learning  ==

toki! I am trying to add or see what the toki pona language learning stuff on here is but I don't see anything that is language learning for anything. [[User:Jan Imon|Jan Imon]] ([[User talk:Jan Imon|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Jan Imon|contribs]]) 23:13, 2 May 2026 (UTC) —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 17:29, 3 May 2026 (UTC)

:We have language materials ([[:Category:Languages]], [[World Languages]], [[Portal:Foreign Language Learning]], [[Portal:Multilingual Studies]]). They are not as developed as I think we would all like and there's not any coverage of Toki Pona, but in principle, we could and would like that. You can also see [[:b:Subject:Languages]] at our sister project Wikibooks. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 17:33, 3 May 2026 (UTC)

== Timeline format? ==

I’ve been working on the World War II articles, including the [[World War II/Timeline|timeline]], and is there a specific timeline format that should be used? Right now it’s just a table, and there’s no separation between different periods/phases of the war.

I don’t want to use [[mw:Extension:EasyTimeline]] because this will be displaying dates and not time periods. [[User:PhilDaBirdMan|PhilDaBirdMan]] ([[User talk:PhilDaBirdMan|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PhilDaBirdMan|contribs]]) 01:35, 4 May 2026 (UTC)

:I dont think we have a policy or guideline, how to format a timeline. But you may try to browes wikiversity by Google if someone was dealing with this in the past somewhow @[[User:PhilDaBirdMan|PhilDaBirdMan]]. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 12:23, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
::+1 - there's no specific guideline on how to format a timeline, it's really up to you. In my opinion I think the timeline is good. I'd personally bold the dates just to make it easier to separate it from the event description, but that's my personal 2 cents. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 14:18, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
:::I’ll probably remove links to the dates/years, they’re just Wikipedia pages that shouldn’t be over linked to. [[User:PhilDaBirdMan|PhilDaBirdMan]] ([[User talk:PhilDaBirdMan|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PhilDaBirdMan|contribs]]) 00:39, 6 May 2026 (UTC)

== Interface administrator for Codename Noreste ==

Hello, everyone. I am requesting interface administrator access on this wiki.

The main reasoning is that I would benefit from having the user right &lt;code&gt;editinterface&lt;/code&gt;, which would allow me to make dark mode changes to pages in the MediaWiki namespace, add &lt;code&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;&lt;div class=&quot;mw-parser-output&quot;&gt;&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/code&gt; to some interface pages using templates, handle interface-protected edit requests, and similar stuff. Additionally, I have some knowledge of CSS, and I would like to assist with modifying CSS pages whenever necessary, such as moving MediaWiki common.css code to TemplateStyles CSS pages.

I am requesting the maximum time that is allowed per the [[Wikiversity:Interface administrators|policy]], and I have 2FA enabled on my account. Thank you. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 00:55, 6 May 2026 (UTC)

*{{support}} Globally trusted user. ―[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:black&quot;&gt;v&lt;/span&gt;f&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 01:07, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
*{{support}} Trusted and knowledgeable. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 04:35, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
*{{support}} WV would benefit from this. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 08:32, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
*{{support}} --[[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 09:13, 7 May 2026 (UTC)

:{{Comment}} Could @[[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] delete [[MediaWiki:Gadget-WikiSign.js]], which was requested to be deleted @[[User:Koavf|Justin]], @[[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]], @[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]]? I dont think we need it. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 07:40, 9 May 2026 (UTC)
::Yes - clearly no longer used -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 10:18, 9 May 2026 (UTC)
::: I can't delete it because I don't have the required permissions to do so.
::: On a side note, if this project has a need for permanent interface administrators, I would suggest that we have a minimum of two IAs, similar to how there must be two CUs and/or suppressors (or none). Maybe Koavf can be a good candidate if I am elected for permanent interface adminship, and I believe that permission shouldn't be removed from someone's own account. Instead, a bureaucrat should do it. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 13:20, 9 May 2026 (UTC)

== [[Wikiversity:Bureaucratship]] to become a policy ==

Following the recent approval of [[Wikiversity:Curators]] as a policy, I think [[Wikiversity:Bureaucratship]] may also be ready for policy status.

Please share your views about whether bureaucratship is ready to become a policy, or whether further revisions are needed.

-- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 13:58, 9 May 2026 (UTC)
: I added a logo about that user group, but other than that, it looks good to me. {{support}}. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 14:38, 9 May 2026 (UTC)</text>
      <sha1>7vb354bgk9rk9fen3ya47nynlbq1cvb</sha1>
    </revision>
    <revision>
      <id>2808085</id>
      <parentid>2808062</parentid>
      <timestamp>2026-05-09T17:54:37Z</timestamp>
      <contributor>
        <username>Koavf</username>
        <id>147</id>
      </contributor>
      <comment>/* Interface administrator for Codename Noreste */ Reply</comment>
      <origin>2808085</origin>
      <model>wikitext</model>
      <format>text/x-wiki</format>
      <text bytes="79522" sha1="t6yfdqubnzy4rjyzu9yo1xs2wg3e1u7" xml:space="preserve">{{Wikiversity:Colloquium/Header}}
&lt;!-- MESSAGES GO BELOW --&gt;
== Requested update to [[Wikiversity:Interface administrators]] ==

Currently, [[Wikiversity:Interface administrators]] is a policy that includes a caveat that interface admins are not required long-term and that user right can only be added for a period of up to two weeks. I am proposing that we remove this qualification and allow for indefinite interface admin status. I think this is useful because there are reasons for tweaking the site CSS or JavaScript (e.g. to comply with dark mode), add gadgets (e.g. importing Cat-a-Lot, which I would like to do), or otherwise modifying the site that could plausibly come up on an irregular basis and requiring the overhead of a bureaucrat to add the user rights is inefficient. In particular, I am also going to request this right if the community accepts indefinite interface admins. Thoughts? —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 23:23, 17 August 2025 (UTC)

:And who will then monitor them to make sure they don't damage the project in any way, or abuse the rights acquired in this way? For large projects, this might not be a problem, but for smaller projects like the English Wikiversity, I'm not sure if there are enough users who would say, something is happening here that shouldn't be happening. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 10:28, 20 August 2025 (UTC)
::Anyone would be who. This argument applies to any person with any advanced rights here. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 10:46, 20 August 2025 (UTC)
:I think it is reasonable to allow for longer periods of access than 2 weeks to interface admin and support adjusting the policy to allow for this flexibility. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 04:57, 2 December 2025 (UTC)
::+1 —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 16:38, 25 January 2026 (UTC)
:@[[User:Koavf|Koavf]] I agree that the two-week requirement could be revised, but wouldn’t people just request access for a specific purpose anyway? Instead of granting indefinite access, they should request the specific time frame they need the rights for—until the planned fixes are completed—and then request an extension if more time is required. We could remove the two-week criterion while still keeping the access explicitly temporary. [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 02:48, 25 January 2026 (UTC)
::I just don't see why this wiki needs to be different than all of the others. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 07:18, 25 January 2026 (UTC)
:::There isn’t really much of a need for a permanent one at this point in time [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 09:53, 25 January 2026 (UTC)
:I quite agree with this proposal, so long as they perform the suggested changes as mentioned here. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 04:06, 26 January 2026 (UTC)
:: Just to clarify, I support '''indefinite interface admin status'''. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 18:34, 13 April 2026 (UTC)
:I think there is decent consensus for lengthening this, but not necessarily for indefinite permissions, so does anyone object to me revising it to the standard being 120 days instead of two weeks? I'll check back on this thread in three weeks and if there's no objection, I'll make the change. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 20:47, 13 April 2026 (UTC)
::Sure [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 23:27, 13 April 2026 (UTC)
::Thanks for proposing this, Justin. I agree with the proposal to lengthen the interface admin period from 2 weeks but not indefinitely. Can I check the source(s) for the standard being 120 days (I'm guessing policies on other projects or maybe global policy?)? In any case, I think it is reasonable for us to adopt a similar period. However, note on the current policy discussion page notes from @[[User:Dave Braunschweig|Dave Braunschweig]] arguing for shorter periods to lower risk, that's why it is 2 weeks. But if there are projects that need longer access, that should also be accommodated. Maybe we could adjust the policy to specify that ''interface admin rights can be given for 14 to 120 days depending on how long is required and what is supported by the community''. Sincerely, James -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 08:29, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
:::There was there was no source for 120: it was just more than 14 and less than infinity. The &quot;14 to 120&quot; also seems reasonable. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 14:33, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
::: On some small/medium-sized wikis, such as English Wikibooks and English Wikiquote for example, indefinite interface administrator access for administrators is allowed, but they tend not to make changes to the CSS and JS page changes unless it's truly necessary. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 14:34, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
:::It's a good idea to make the length of this right on request or allow to be prolonged. However, IA should test large changes somewhere else, for example on the en.wv mirror, and only after testing it on the mirror, adapt it to the live version. That means I can't imagine a time-consuming operation right now. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 20:04, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
::::Sorry, what mirror is this? Are you talking about beta.wv? —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 20:32, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
:::::Not beta.wv. Basically somewhere else then on a live wiki. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 20:59, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
:::::: Wouldn't testing on a user's own common.css page work anyway? [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 21:36, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
:Change made here: https://en.wikiversity.org/w/index.php?title=Wikiversity%3AInterface_administrators&amp;diff=2807543&amp;oldid=2806289 —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 13:35, 4 May 2026 (UTC)

== [[Template:AI-generated]] ==

After going through the plethora of ChatGPT-generated pages made by [[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]] (with many more pages to go), I'd like community input on this proposal to [[Wikiversity:Artificial intelligence]] that I think would be benefical for the community:
*Resources generated by AI '''must''' be indicated as so through the project box, [[Template:AI-generated]], on either the page or the main resource (if the page is a part of a project).
I do not believe including a small note/reference that a page is AI-generated is sufficient, and I take my thinking from [[WV:Original research|Wikiversity's OR policy]] for OR work: ''Within Wikiversity, all original research should be clearly identified as such''. I believe resources created from AI should also be clearly indicated as such, especially since we are working on whether or not AI-generated resources should be allowed on the website (discussion is [[Wikiversity talk:Artificial intelligence|here]], for reference). This makes it easier for organizational purposes, and in the event ''if'' we ban AI-generated work. 

I've left a message on Lee's talk page over a week ago and did not get a response or acknowledgement, so I'd like for the community's input for this inclusion to the policy. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 15:53, 26 January 2026 (UTC)

:I believe that existing Wikiversity policies are sufficient. Authors are responsible for the accuracy and usefulness of the content that is published. This policy covers AI-generated content that is: 1) carefully reviewed by the author publishing it, and 2) the source is noted.   [[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]] ([[User talk:Lbeaumont|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Lbeaumont|contribs]]) 19:38, 27 January 2026 (UTC)
::A small reference for pages that are substantially filled with Chat-GPT entries, like [[Real Good Religion]], [[Attributing Blame]], [[Fostering Curiosity]], are not sufficient IMO and a project box would be the best indicator that a page is AI-generated (especially when there is a mixture of human created content AND AI-generated content, as present in a lot of your pages). This is useful, especially considering the notable issues with AI (including hallucinations and fabrication of details), so viewers and support staff are aware. These small notes left on the pages are not as easily viewable as a project box or banner would be. I really don't see the issue with a clear-label guideline. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 22:34, 27 January 2026 (UTC)
::{{ping|Lbeaumont}} I noticed your reversions [https://en.wikiversity.org/w/index.php?title=Exploring_Existential_Concerns&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2788278 here] &amp; [https://en.wikiversity.org/w/index.php?title=Subjective_Awareness&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2788257 here]. I'd prefer to have a clean conversation regarding this proposition. Please voice your concerns here. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 15:53, 28 January 2026 (UTC)
:::Regarding Subjective Awareness, I distinctly recall the effort I went to to write that the old-fashioned way. It is true that ChatGPT assisted me in augmenting the list of words suggested as candidate subjective states. This is a small section of the course, is clearly marked, and makes no factual claim. Marking the entire course as AI-generated is misleading. I would have made these comments when I reverted your edit; however, the revert button does not provide that opportunity.
:::Regarding the Exploring Existential Concerns course, please note this was adapted from my EmotionalCompetency.com website, which predates the availability of LLMs. The course does include two links, clearly labeled as ChatGPT-generated. Again, marking the entire course as AI-generated is misleading.
:::On a broader issue, I don't consider your opinions to have established a carefully debated and adopted Wikiversity policy. You went ahead and modified many of my courses over my clearly stated objections. Please let this issue play out more completely before editing my courses further. Thanks.   [[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]] ([[User talk:Lbeaumont|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Lbeaumont|contribs]]) 15:11, 29 January 2026 (UTC)
::::Understood, and I respect your position. I apologize if my edits were seen as overarching. We could change the project box to &quot;a portion of this resource was generated by AI&quot;, or something along those lines. Feel free to revert my changes where you see fit, and I encourage more users to provide their input. EDIT: I've made changes to the template to indicate that a portion of the content has been generated from an LLM. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 15:50, 29 January 2026 (UTC)
:::::Thanks for this reply. The new banner is unduly large and alarming. There is no need for alarm here. The use of AI is not harmful per se. Like any technology, it can be used to help or to harm. I take care to craft prompts carefully, point the LMM to reliable source materials, and to carefully read and verify the generated text before I publish it. This is all in keeping with long-established Wikiversity policy. We don't want to use a  [[w:One-drop_rule|one-drop rule]] here or cause a [[w:Satanic_panic|satanic panic]]. We can learn our lessons from history here. I don't see any pedagogical reason for establishing a classification of &quot;AI generated&quot;, but if there is a consensus that it is needed, perhaps it can be handled as just another category that learning resources can be assigned to. I would rather focus on identifying any errors in factual claims than on casting pejorative bias toward AI-generated content. An essay on the best practices for using LMM on Wikiveristy would be welcome.   [[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]] ([[User talk:Lbeaumont|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Lbeaumont|contribs]]) 15:58, 30 January 2026 (UTC)
::::::The new banner mimics the banner that is available on the English Wikibooks (see [[b:Template:AI-generated]] &amp; [[b:Template:Uses AI]]), so my revisions aren't unique in this aspect. At this point, I'd welcome other peoples' inputs. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 19:40, 30 January 2026 (UTC)

== How do I start making pages? ==
Is there a notability guideline for Wikiversity? What is the sourcing policy for information? What is the Manual of Style? What kind of educational content qualifies for Wikiversity? All the introduction pages are a bit unclear. 
[[User:VidanaliK|VidanaliK]] ([[User talk:VidanaliK|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/VidanaliK|contribs]]) 02:25, 28 January 2026 (UTC)

:{{ping|VidanaliK}} Welcome to Wikiversity! I've left you a welcome message on your talk page. That should help you out. Make sure to especially look at [[Wikiversity:Introduction]]. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 03:11, 28 January 2026 (UTC)
::It says that I can't post more pages because I have apparently exceeded the new page limit. How long does it take before that new page limit expires? [[User:VidanaliK|VidanaliK]] ([[User talk:VidanaliK|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/VidanaliK|contribs]]) 16:57, 28 January 2026 (UTC)
:::This is a restriction for new users so that Wikiversity is not hit with massive spam. As for when this limit will expire, it should be a few days or after a certain number of edits. It's easy to overcome, though I do not have the exact numbers atm. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 15:08, 29 January 2026 (UTC)
::::OK, I think I got past the limit. [[User:VidanaliK|VidanaliK]] ([[User talk:VidanaliK|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/VidanaliK|contribs]]) 17:21, 29 January 2026 (UTC)
==Why does it feel like Wikiversity is no longer really active anymore?==
I've been looking at recent changes, and both today and yesterday there haven't been many changes that I haven't made; it feels like walking through a ghost town, is this just me or is Wikiversity not really active anymore? [[User:VidanaliK|VidanaliK]] ([[User talk:VidanaliK|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/VidanaliK|contribs]]) 03:54, 30 January 2026 (UTC)

:There is fewer people editing these days compared to the past. Many newcomers tend to edit in Wikipedia instead. [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 06:39, 30 January 2026 (UTC)
:It’s a little slow, but I’m happy to know that Wikiversity is a place that I think should provide value even if the activity of editors fluctuates. If it’s any consolation your edits may be encouraging for some anonymous newcomer to start edits on their own! I think it’s hard to build community when there is such a wide variety of interests and a smaller starting userbase. Also sometimes the getting into a particular topic that already exists can be intimidating because some relics (large portals, school, categories, etc.) have intricate, unique and generally messy levels of organization. [[User:IanVG|IanVG]] ([[User talk:IanVG|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/IanVG|contribs]]) 22:16, 9 March 2026 (UTC)
:I'd say it comes down to working hard for Wikiversity, basically if somebody or a group of people will start presenting good ideas and they turn out to be provably stable.
:I even asked Google's &quot;AI Mode&quot;, what is Wikiversity famous for? Unfortunately it could not answer that.
:Simply, we have not made Wikiversity famous by presenting really provable stable ideas yet. My hope is that this time might come. Perhaps even this year 2026!
:Hope dies last. [[User:ThinkingScience|ThinkingScience]] ([[User talk:ThinkingScience|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ThinkingScience|contribs]]) 10:12, 27 April 2026 (UTC)

== Inactivity policy for Curators ==

I was wondering if there is a specific inactivity polity for curators (semi-admins) as I am pretty sure the global policy does not apply to them as they are not ''fully'' sysops. [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 03:20, 15 February 2026 (UTC)

:Unfortunately, I don't see an inactivity policy, but if we were to create such a new policy for curators, it should be the same for custodians (administrators). [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 18:45, 15 February 2026 (UTC)
::@[[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] There is currently none, that I could find, for custodians either. [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 00:47, 17 February 2026 (UTC)
:::I think we should propose a local inactivity policy for custodians (and by extension, curators), which should be at least one year without any edits ''and'' logged actions. However, I don't know which page should it be when the inactivity removal procedure starts. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 00:53, 17 February 2026 (UTC)
::::@[[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] In theory, there should be a section added at [[WV:Candidates for custodianship]] [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 00:55, 17 February 2026 (UTC)
::::: To be consistent with the [[meta:Admin activity review|global period of 2 years inactivity]] for en.wv  [[Wikiversity:Custodianship#Notes|Custodians]] and [[Wikiversity:Bureaucratship#How are bureaucrats removed?|Bureaucrats]] we could add something like this to [[Wikiversity:Curators]]:
::::::The maximum time period of inactivity &lt;u&gt;without community review&lt;/u&gt; for curators is two years (consistent with  the [[:meta:Category:Global policies|global policy]] described at [[meta:Admin activity review|Admin activity review]] which applies for [[Wikiversity:Custodianship#Notes|Custodians]] and [[Wikiversity:Bureaucratship|Bureaucrats]]). After that time a custodian will remove the rights.
::::: -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 10:51, 27 March 2026 (UTC)
:::::Yup, I agree with Jtneill, there is a policy proposal for Wikiversity:Curators, where it should be logically deployed. The question is if we are ready to aprove the policy. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 17:43, 17 April 2026 (UTC)
:::::: I agree, but we should notify the colloquium about inactive curators, just like a steward would do for inactive custodians and bureaucrats per [[:m:Admin activity review|AAR]]. What is the minimum timeframe an inactive curator should receive so they can respond they would keep their rights? [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 17:49, 17 April 2026 (UTC)
:I incorporated these suggestions into the proposed curators policy. Please review/comment/improve. Summary: 2 years, notify curator's user page, then remove rights after 1 month: [[Wikiversity:Curators#Inactivity]]. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 08:59, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
:: @[[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] I created [[Template:Inactive curator]] for this. Feel free to make any changes or improvements. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 14:29, 24 April 2026 (UTC)

== [[Wikiversity:Artificial intelligence]] to become an official policy ==
{{Archive top|After running for a week, there is consensus, alongside comments, for [[Wikiversity:Artificial intelligence]] to be implemented as an official policy. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 23:27, 17 April 2026 (UTC)}}
With the introduction of AI-material, and some material just plain disruptive, its imperative that Wikiversity catches up with its sister projects and implements an official AI policy that we can work with. The recent issue of [[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]]'s 50+ articles that contain significantly large AI-generated material has made me came to the Colloquium. This user has also been removing the [[Template:AI-generated]] template from their pages, calling it &quot;misleading&quot;, &quot;alarmist&quot;, and &quot;pejorative&quot; - which is all just simply nonsensical rationales. Not to even mention this user's contributions to the English Wikipedia have been [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Inner_Development_Goals contested] and [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Multipolar_trap removed] a couple of times (for being low-quality and clearly LLM-generated), highlighting the need for an actual policy to be implemented here on Wikiversity. I would like to ping {{ping|Juandev}} and {{ping|Jtneill}} for their thoughts as well, since I'd like this to be implemented as soon as possible. 

Wikiversity has a significant issue with implementing anti-disruptive measures, hence why we have received numerous complaints as a community about our quality. I originally was reverting the removal of the templates, but realized that this is still a proposed policy, which it shouldn't be anymore. It should be a recognized Wikiversity policy. 14:54, 10 March 2026 (UTC) —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 14:54, 10 March 2026 (UTC)

:@[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] '''I agree''' that the draft, should become official policy. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 17:00, 10 March 2026 (UTC)
:I provided a detailed response at: [[Wikiversity talk:Artificial intelligence#Evolving a Wikiversity policy on AI]]
:I will appreaciate it if you consder that carefully. [[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]] ([[User talk:Lbeaumont|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Lbeaumont|contribs]]) 22:49, 10 March 2026 (UTC)
:Agree it should become official Wikiversity policy on the condition &lt;u&gt;that point point 5 is about [significant/substantial] LLM-generated text specifically&lt;/u&gt;. Not a good idea to overuse it, it should be added when there is substantial AI-generated text on the page, not for other cases. [[User:Prototyperspective|Prototyperspective]] ([[User talk:Prototyperspective|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Prototyperspective|contribs]]) 12:37, 11 March 2026 (UTC)
:What policy is being debated? Is it the text on this page, which is pointed to by the general banner, or the text at:   [[Wikiversity:Artificial intelligence|Wikiversity:Artificial intelligence,]]   which is pointed to by the specific banner? Let's begin with coherence on the text being debated. Thanks!  [[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]] ([[User talk:Lbeaumont|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Lbeaumont|contribs]]) 11:49, 17 March 2026 (UTC)
::@[[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]] This is a call for approval of the new Wikiversity policy. You expressed your opinion [[Wikiversity talk:Artificial intelligence#Evolving a Wikiversity policy on AI|on the talk page of the proposal]], I replied to you and await your response.When creating policies, it is necessary to propose specific solutions. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 14:12, 17 March 2026 (UTC)
:::Toward a Justified and Parsimonious AI Policy 
:::As we collaborate to develop a consensus policy on the use of Large Language Models, it is wise to begin by considering the needs of the various stakeholders to the policy.
:::The stakeholders are:
:::1)     The users, 
:::2)     The source providers, and
:::3)     The editors
:::There may also be others with a minor stake in this policy, including the population at large.
:::The many needs of the users are currently addressed by long-standing [[Wikiversity:Policies|Wikiversity policies]], so we can focus on what, if any, additional needs arise as LLMs are deployed. 
:::As always, users need assurance that propositional statements are accurate. This is covered by the existing policy on [[Wikiversity:Verifiability|verifiably]]. In addition, it is expected by both the users and those that provide materials used as sources for the text are [[Wikiversity:Cite sources|accurately attributed]]. This is also covered by [[Wikiversity:Cite sources|existing policies]].
:::To respect the time and effort of editors, a parsimonious policy will unburden editors from costly requirements that exceed benefits to the users.
:::Finally, it is important to recognize that because attention is our most valuable seizing attention unnecessarily is a form of theft. 
:::The following proposed policy statement results from these considerations:
:::Recommended Policy statement:
:::·       Editors [[Wikiversity:Verifiability|verify the accuracy]] of propositional statements, regardless of the source.
:::·       Editors [[Wikiversity:Cite sources|attribute the source]] of propositional statements. In the case of LLM, cite the LLM model and the prompt used.
:::·       Use of various available templates to mark the use of LLM are optional. Templates that are flexible in noting the type and extend of LLM usage are preferred. Templates that avoid unduly distracting or alarming the user are preferred. [[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]] ([[User talk:Lbeaumont|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Lbeaumont|contribs]]) 19:56, 19 March 2026 (UTC)
::::Do we discuss here or there? I have replied you there as your proposal is about that policy so it is tradition to discuss it at the affected talk page. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 21:59, 19 March 2026 (UTC)
: {{support}} Thanks for the proposed policy development and discussion; also note proposed policy talk page discussion: [[Wikiversity talk:Artificial intelligence]] -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 12:05, 24 March 2026 (UTC)
::I think the Wikiversity AI policy shall be official. – [[User:RestoreAccess111|RestoreAccess111]] &lt;sup style=&quot;font-family:Arimo, Arial;&quot;&gt;[[User talk:RestoreAccess111|Talk!]]&lt;/sup&gt; &lt;sup style=&quot;font-family:Times New Roman, Tinos;&quot;&gt;[[Special:Contributions/RestoreAccess111|Watch!]]&lt;/sup&gt; 06:11, 13 April 2026 (UTC)
{{archive bottom}}

== New titles for user right nominations ==
&lt;div class=&quot;cd-moveMark&quot;&gt;''Moved from [[Wikiversity talk:Candidates for Custodianship#New titles for user right nominations]].  [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 23:20, 17 April 2026 (UTC)''&lt;/div&gt;

I would like to propose the following retitles should a user be nominated for any of the following user rights:
* Curator: Candidates for Curatorship
* Bureaucrat: Candidates for Bureaucratship
The reason is that many curator (and probably bureaucrat) requests have run solely under {{tq|Candidates for Custodianship}}, but that title might sound misleading (especially in regards to the permission a user is requesting). CheckUser and Oversight (suppressor) are not included above since no user was nominated for these sensitive permissions, probably. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 01:30, 19 March 2026 (UTC)

:And it's not that when someone at the beginning misplaced the request, no one thought to move it and the others copied it. Even today, it would be possible to simply take it all and move it. Otherwise, for me, the more fundamental problem is that there is [[Wikiversity:Curators|no approved policy for curators]] than where the requests are based. Curators then operate in a certain vacuum and if one of them &quot;breaks out of the chain&quot;, the average user doesn't have many transparent tools to deal with it, because there is no policy. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 07:02, 19 March 2026 (UTC)
::I am not talking about the curator page (policy proposal). [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 19:08, 21 March 2026 (UTC)
: @[[User:Juandev|Juandev]] I'll see if I can do an overhaul of [[Wikiversity:Candidates for Custodianship]], just like I recently did with the Requests for adminship page on English Wikiquote. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 22:17, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
:Yes, great idea - ideally there will be separate &quot;Candidates for ...&quot; pages for each user right group. The most important for now is to separate curator and custodian pages as CN suggests. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 11:39, 1 May 2026 (UTC)
:So maybe I previously misunderstood. Are you proposing separated pages for nominations (i.e. [[Wikiversity:Candidates for Curatorship]], [[Wikiversity:Candidates for Bureaucratship]], [[Wikiversity:Candidates for Custodianship]])? [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 12:30, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
:: Yes. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 13:33, 5 May 2026 (UTC)

== Technical Request:  Courtesy link.. ==

[[Template_talk:Information#Background_must_have_color_defined_as_well]] [[User:ShakespeareFan00|ShakespeareFan00]] ([[User talk:ShakespeareFan00|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ShakespeareFan00|contribs]]) 11:43, 20 March 2026 (UTC)
: I can't edit the template directly as it need an sysop/interface admin to do it. [[User:ShakespeareFan00|ShakespeareFan00]] ([[User talk:ShakespeareFan00|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ShakespeareFan00|contribs]]) 11:43, 20 March 2026 (UTC)
:: Also if the Template field of - https://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Special:LintErrors/night-mode-unaware-background-color is examined, there is poential for an admin to clear a substantial proportion of these by implmenting a simmilar fix to the indciated templates (and underlying stylesheets). It would be nice to clear things like Project box and others, as many other templates (and thus pages depend on them.) :)
[[User:ShakespeareFan00|ShakespeareFan00]] ([[User talk:ShakespeareFan00|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ShakespeareFan00|contribs]]) 11:43, 20 March 2026 (UTC)

:I think it would be best to grant you interface admin rights for a short period of time to make these changes. However, I still have doubts about the suitability of this solution, which may cause other problems and no one has explained to me why dark mode has to be implemented this way @[[User:ShakespeareFan00|ShakespeareFan00]]. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 20:43, 20 March 2026 (UTC)

: I would have reservations about holding such rights, which is why I was trying to do what I could without needing them. However if it is the only way to get the required changes made, I would suggest asking on Wikipedia to find technical editors, willing to undertake the changes needed. [[User:ShakespeareFan00|ShakespeareFan00]] ([[User talk:ShakespeareFan00|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ShakespeareFan00|contribs]]) 09:32, 21 March 2026 (UTC)

== WikiEducator has closed ==

Some of you may know of a similar project to Wikiversity, called [https://wikieducator.org/Main_Page WikiEducator], championed by [https://oerfoundation.org/about/staff/wayne-mackintosh/ Wayne Mackintosh][https://www.linkedin.com/posts/waynemackintosh_important-notice-about-the-oer-foundation-activity-7405113051688931329-Nhm9/][https://openeducation.nz/killed-not-starved/].

It seems [https://openeducation.nz/terminating-oer-foundation their foundation has closed] and they are no longer operating.

They had done quite a bit of outreach (e.g., in the Pacific and Africa) to get educators using wiki.

The WikiEducator content is still available in MediaWiki - and potentially could be imported to Wikiversity ([https://wikieducator.org/WikiEducator:Copyrights CC-BY-SA] is the default license).

The closing of WikiEducator arguably makes the nurturing of Wikiversity even more important.

-- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 02:09, 1 April 2026 (UTC)

:I was never active there. If anyone has an account or is otherwise in contact, we may want to copy relevant information here or even at [[:outreach:]]. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 04:46, 1 April 2026 (UTC)

:: I reached out to [[User:Mackiwg~enwikiversity|Wayne]] in January, and he responded briefly but positively (while travelling).  I wrote to the low-traffic wikieducator mailing list today and got a nice [https://groups.google.com/g/wikieducator/c/r_yIyUw6ZIA reply] from [[user:SteveFoerster|Steve Foerster]] who's interested in helping. If we can figure out a migration path it would be great to adopt at least the main namespace pages here.  
:: A few questions that come to mind: 
:: - would people want to create matching user accounts
:: - are there any namespaces (user/talk?) that should not be moved over
:: We could look at how this was done for the [[m:Wikivoyage/Migration]] wikivoyage migration. &lt;span style=&quot;padding:0 2px 0 2px;background-color:white;color:#bbb;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash;[[User:Sj|SJ]][[User Talk:Sj|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#ff9900;&quot;&gt;+&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 04:27, 1 May 2026 (UTC)
:::That's fantastic, SJ, that you've reached out and that Wayne, Steve, and Jim are receptive—and that you can help! -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 11:52, 1 May 2026 (UTC)

== Wikinews is ending ==

Apparently mainly due to low editorial activity, low public interest, but also failure to achieve the goals from the proposal for the creation of the project, the Wikinews project is ending after years of discussions ([[Meta:Proposal for Closing Wikinews|some reading]]).

And I would be interested to see how Wikiversity is doing in the monitored metrics. We probably have more editors than Wikinews had, but what about consumers and achieving the goals? [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 19:14, 1 April 2026 (UTC)

:Wikiversity's biggest issue in recent times was the hosting of low-quality, trash content. Thankfully we've done a great job in removing pseudoscience and other embarrassingly trash content (Wikidebates, for example), but the biggest concern moving forward is proper maintenance IMO. I've caught several pseudoscience pages being created within the last few months that could easily have flown under the radar (ex, [[The Kelemen Dilemma: Causal Collapse and Axiomatic Instability]]), so I'd urge our custodians/curators to be on the lookout for this type of content. Usually an AI-overview can point this type of content out relatively well.
:In terms of visibility, I believe Wikiversity is a high-traffic project. I remember my [[Mathematical Properties]] showing up on the first page of Google when searching up &quot;math properties&quot; for the longest time (and is still showing up in the first page 'till this day!). Besides, Wikinews hosted a lot of short-term content (the nature of news articles), while Wikiversity hosts content that can still be useful a decade later (ex, [[A Reader's Guide to Annotation]]). 
:I think we are on a better path than we were a few months ago, and I do want to thank everyone here who has been helping out with maintaining our website! —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 20:48, 1 April 2026 (UTC)
:For what it's worth, the group that did that study has since disbanded, so no one is monitoring the other sister projects in the same way. Additionally, Wikinews had some catastrophic server issues due to the maintenance of [[:m:Extension:DynamicPageList]] which don't apply here. Your questions are still worth addressing, but I just wanted to cut off any concern at the pass about Wikiversity being in the same precarious situation. Wikiversity is definitely the biggest &quot;lagging behind&quot; or &quot;failure&quot; project now that Wikinews is being shuttered, but I don't see any near- or medium-term pathway to closing Wikiversity. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 00:46, 2 April 2026 (UTC)

:[[w:en:Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2026-03-31/News and notes|Entirety of Wikinews to be shut down]] (Wikipedia Signpost) -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 02:03, 11 April 2026 (UTC)

== Action Required: Update templates/modules for electoral maps (Migrating from P1846 to P14226) ==

Hello everyone,

This is a notice regarding an ongoing data migration on Wikidata that may affect your election-related templates and Lua modules (such as &lt;code&gt;Module:Itemgroup/list&lt;/code&gt;).

'''The Change:'''&lt;br /&gt;
Currently, many templates pull electoral maps from Wikidata using the property [[:d:Property:P1846|P1846]], combined with the qualifier [[:d:Property:P180|P180]]: [[:d:Q19571328|Q19571328]]. 

We are migrating this data (across roughly 4,000 items) to a newly created, dedicated property: '''[[:d:Property:P14226|P14226]]'''.

'''What You Need To Do:'''&lt;br /&gt;
To ensure your templates and infoboxes do not break or lose their maps, please update your local code to fetch data from [[:d:Property:P14226|P14226]] instead of the old [[:d:Property:P1846|P1846]] + [[:d:Property:P180|P180]] structure. A [[m:Wikidata/Property Migration: P1846 to P14226/List|list of pages]] was generated using Wikimedia Global Search.

'''Deadline:'''&lt;br /&gt;
We are temporarily retaining the old data on [[:d:Property:P1846|P1846]] to allow for a smooth transition. However, to complete the data cleanup on Wikidata, the old [[:d:Property:P1846|P1846]] statements will be removed after '''May 1, 2026'''. Please update your modules and templates before this date to prevent any disruption to your wiki's election articles.

Let us know if you have any questions or need assistance with the query logic. Thank you for your help! [[User:ZI Jony|ZI Jony]] using [[User:MediaWiki message delivery|MediaWiki message delivery]] ([[User talk:MediaWiki message delivery|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/MediaWiki message delivery|contribs]]) 17:11, 3 April 2026 (UTC)
&lt;!-- Message sent by User:ZI Jony@metawiki using the list at https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Distribution_list/Non-Technical_Village_Pumps_distribution_list&amp;oldid=29941252 --&gt;
:I didnt find such properties, so we are probably fine. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 21:00, 12 April 2026 (UTC)
:: +1 (agreed). [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 22:19, 12 April 2026 (UTC)

== Enable the abuse filter block action? ==

In light of [[Special:AbuseLog/80178]] (coupon spam), I would like to propose enabling the block action for the abuse filter. Only custodians will be able to enable and disable that action on an abuse filter, and it is useful to block ongoing vandalism. Thoughts? [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 19:12, 13 April 2026 (UTC)

:Seems like a good idea, almost all of the users which create such pages are spambots so this shouldn’t be a problem. [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 23:41, 13 April 2026 (UTC)
:Can you explain some more (I am new to abuse filters)? It looks like the attempted edit was prevented? Which abuse filter?
:Note on your suggestion, have also reactivated Antispam Filter 12 - see [[WV:RCA]]. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 10:45, 15 April 2026 (UTC)
:: I am proposing that we activate the abuse filter block action, which if a user triggers an abuse filter, it would actually block the user in question - the same mechanism that a custodian would use to block users. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 13:11, 15 April 2026 (UTC)
:::OK, thankyou, that makes sense. And, reviewing the abuse filter 12 log, it would be helpful because it would prevent the need for manual blocking. But I don't see a setting for autoblocking? -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 23:14, 15 April 2026 (UTC)
:::: I think it probably adds an autoblock. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 00:43, 16 April 2026 (UTC)
: [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] and [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]], given that a little bit more than a week has passed and there is minimal consensus to activate the abuse filter block action, I filed [[phab:T424053]]. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 15:05, 21 April 2026 (UTC)
::Thank-you for doing this. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 08:03, 24 April 2026 (UTC)

== Advice needed: A Neurodiversity-inspired Idea/observation ==

If I want the greatest participation of others to &quot;provide constructive criticism to my idea&quot; or to &quot;shoot down my idea&quot; or &quot;idea&quot;.

What I've called it so far is &quot;The Neurodiversity-inspired Idea&quot;. At other times I used more sensationalist wording but here on Wikiversity I don't dare do that. I actually woke up with thinking about putting this into my userspace draft: &quot;Personal Observations Made By Meeting Autistic and Non-Autistic Adults&quot;.

My ultimate goal is to stop blathering about my &quot;idea&quot; to friend and family without feeling my &quot;methodology&quot; is going into any progressive direction whatsoever. My latest encounter was somewhat constructive though. A friend of a friend who worked with people presenting ideas in attempting to getting grants. I don't want a grant. I just want to figure out how I can express my &quot;idea&quot; in a way so that I can more clearly figure out what flaws it got.

At the same time I tend to overthink. If anyone thinks etherpad might be a good place and considering Wikimedia already got an etherpad at https://etherpad.wikimedia.org/ if anyone feels like they know me better in the future feel free to suggest a &quot;session&quot; on etherpad.

'''If I don't receive a reply to this in 1 week's time I will begin to explore this &quot;idea&quot; into my userspace''' unless you replied and refrained me from doing so, of course. Then maybe after &quot;developing it there&quot; I might reference it to you another future time here in the Colloquium, with my &quot;idea&quot; still in my userspace draft. This &quot;idea&quot; is sort of a burden, I'm happy I've made the choice to get rid of it and hopefully move on with my life, unless there is something to this &quot;idea&quot;. 

My failure is probably evident: I feel I haven't told you anything. Same happened to when I talked to friends and family. In danger of overthinking it further I'll publish this right now. I need to &quot;keep it together&quot; [[User:ThinkingScience|ThinkingScience]] ([[User talk:ThinkingScience|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ThinkingScience|contribs]]) 10:36, 16 April 2026 (UTC)

:Good on you putting it out there ... and hitting publish :). I'd say go for it (no need to wait), give birth to your idea and share about it here and elsewhere. Let it take shape and see where it might go. In many ways, this is exactly what an open collaborative learning community should be doing. Others might not know well how to respond, so perhaps consider creating some questions to accompany the idea. Sincerely, James -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 11:21, 16 April 2026 (UTC)
::Thank you for encouraging me in developing the idea.
::I have created a &quot;questions&quot; section in the draft which is visible in the table of contents now. My brain was &quot;frozen&quot; today metaphorically speaking in that I felt I had like a &quot;writer's block&quot; so the draft has more &quot;AI/LLM&quot; content than before. I used the LLM for generating questions. The answers are so far human-only.
::I've also created a subsection where I could add the prompts that made the LLM generate the questions. That could help people make better prompts perhaps. I've described what it is about inside of it and there are some chaotically written notes.
::[[Draft:The_Neurodiversity-inspired_Idea#Questions_that_might_encourage_the_development_of_this_idea_and_its_methodology]]
::My draft is missing stuff. Any questions that you contribute to my draft will probably help me and if I don't understand the questions I'll probably notify you and also at the same time &quot;feed them&quot; to an LLM and ask in my input like &quot;explain in simple words what this question means, what is it searching for?&quot; etc. while I wait for an answer. If you have any more feedback please give it to me here or on the Draft page, its talk page or my user talk page. Thank you for helping me! [[User:ThinkingScience|ThinkingScience]] ([[User talk:ThinkingScience|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ThinkingScience|contribs]]) 21:20, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
::Today I woke up with not only thinking about supplying questions along with the &quot;idea&quot; but also answers. ie. Is it possible to &quot;test&quot; this idea? Is it possible to create one or multiple hypotheses based on this &quot;idea&quot;?(etc.) I've thought about this before in this &quot;idea&quot; but since I'm beginning to add to Wikiversity what was previously 'locked in my mind' it's also easier for me to see what I've done so far. Thank you for this comment! [[User:ThinkingScience|ThinkingScience]] ([[User talk:ThinkingScience|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ThinkingScience|contribs]]) 09:11, 23 April 2026 (UTC)
:May I think that you should not add deadlines ; being read, and rising interest for collaboration, or even simply for exchange of thoughts, such an effective meeting event loads a huge bunch of unprobability, which time can help to… somehow diminish. Maybe, I would advice you having a central place for developping your ideas, your needs, your advances, maybe a page in your own user zone, and from time to time, depending your feeling, it could be every trimester or so, or more frequently, you could write a short account of progress (or even of no progress), or a call for participation, in such a place as this present one ; I think that will increase much exposure of your projet. Maybe also, if you can find a project name, not necessarily very meaningfull by itseilf (at least it will gain signification with time, as your project develops), that will serve as a kind-of hook, and make your announcement titles more visible. Best regards (and my excuses for my poor command of English, which seems to be unplease an anti-abuse filter, &quot;Questionable Language (profanity)&quot;, which I don't understand…). My few cents. --  [[User:Eric.LEWIN|Eric.LEWIN]] ([[User talk:Eric.LEWIN|discussion]] • [[Special:Contributions/Eric.LEWIN|contributions]]) 10:06, 17 April 2026 (UTC)
::Sorry about the false positive on the profanity filter - I've fixed it. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 10:26, 17 April 2026 (UTC)
:::&quot;May I think that you should not add deadlines ; being read, and rising interest for collaboration, or even simply for exchange of thoughts, such an effective meeting event loads a huge bunch of unprobability, which time can help to… somehow diminish.&quot;
::Thank you Eric for this comment. Trust in time is how I interpret it. I should not feel like I need to be in a hurry. I'll try to give this time. Thank you!
:::&quot;Maybe, I would advice you having a central place for developping your ideas, your needs, your advances, maybe a page in your own user zone, and from time to time, depending your feeling, it could be every trimester or so, or more frequently, you could write a short account of progress (or even of no progress), or a call for participation, in such a place as this present one ; I think that will increase much exposure of your projet.&quot;
::A central place for developing or making &quot;project notes&quot; regarding the Neurodiversity idea on my userspace, I might need that, like a diary or &quot;project notes&quot; of the Neurodiversity idea similar to my course notes regarding my experience with Coursera.
::Any actions I take are going to be related to my Userspace from now on but I'll also update the draft when necessary. Now in the beginning I might be working daily to once every 3 days on both the draft and the daily notes I plan to make.
:::&quot;Maybe also, if you can find a project name, not necessarily very meaningfull by itseilf (at least it will gain signification with time, as your project develops), that will serve as a kind-of hook, and make your announcement titles more visible.&quot;
::Thank you for the advice. I was brainstorming yesterday about it. I concluded that since I've not yet developed a methodology that adheres to &quot;Do no harm&quot; and this is my first time working my &quot;idea&quot; into a way that is compatible with how projects develop on English Wikiversity this is new to me. My methodology isn't developed and therefore trying to get attention to my project through a name can wait. Yesterday I figured out a silly title that has nothing to do with the project: &quot;Planetary Awareness Potato Cabbage Rolls&quot; or something like that. Google output read that no such thing exists so I wanted it mainly to be unique. I don't want to raise attention that I'm unsure whether I'll actually be capable of developing a methodology for but project notes is my best bet so far in tracking my progress. Every day I think about this &quot;idea&quot; but I need to improve the important parts.
:::&quot;Best regards (and my excuses for my poor command of English, which seems to be unplease an anti-abuse filter, &quot;Questionable Language (profanity)&quot;, which I don't understand…). My few cents.&quot;
::You added great points and I felt that I was helped by you! I encourage you to post again and I can understand that interacting with any kind of automated filter can be discouraging and can be for me too! Thank you for giving me feedback! [[User:ThinkingScience|ThinkingScience]] ([[User talk:ThinkingScience|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ThinkingScience|contribs]]) 16:01, 18 April 2026 (UTC)

== Add some user rights to the curator user group? ==

By default, only custodians have the ability to mark new pages as patrolled (&lt;code&gt;patrol&lt;/code&gt;) and have their own page creations automatically marked as patrolled (&lt;code&gt;autopatrol&lt;/code&gt;). I am proposing both of the following:
* Curators can mark new pages as patrolled, helping on reducing the backlog of new, unpatrolled pages.
* New pages made by curators will be automatically marked as patrolled by the MediaWiki software.
Before we implement this, I would suggest implementing a proposed guideline for marking new pages as patrolled for curators and custodians.

Thoughts? [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 16:32, 17 April 2026 (UTC)

:Agree, &lt;s&gt;also can we also allow curators to undelete pages since they already have the rights to delete them?&lt;/s&gt; [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 02:54, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
::I think the requirement that undelete NOT be included came from above (meta / stewards / central office). Having access to the undelete page gives access to information that is restricted by their policies to admins (custodians and bureaucrats). -- [[User:Dave Braunschweig|Dave Braunschweig]] ([[User talk:Dave Braunschweig|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dave Braunschweig|contribs]]) 20:12, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
::: [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]], unless if requests for curator and custodian should be RfA-like processes (that is, including voting and comments), then I have to agree with Dave above. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 22:03, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
::::Oh, I didn’t realise that. Withdrawing my comment.. [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 00:08, 19 April 2026 (UTC)
:{{support}} Seems reasonable and would reduce overhead. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 14:35, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
:'''Agree''', implement it also to [[Wikiversity:Curators]] proposal please. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 17:11, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
: I went ahead and filed [[phab:T424445]]. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 15:39, 26 April 2026 (UTC)

== [[Wikiversity:Curators|Curators and curators policy]] ==
{{archive top|There is strong consensus, so [[Wikiversity:Curators]] is now a policy. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 11:15, 9 May 2026 (UTC)}}
How does it come, that Wikiversity has curators, but Curators policy is still being proposed? How do the curators exists and act if the policy about them havent been approved yet? [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 18:33, 16 October 2025 (UTC)

:It looks as if it is not just curators. The policy on Bureaucratship is still being proposed as well. See [[Wikiversity:Bureaucratship]]. —[[User:RailwayEnthusiast2025|&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Verdana; color:#008000; text-shadow:gray 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em;&quot;&gt;RailwayEnthusiast2025&lt;/span&gt;]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:RailwayEnthusiast2025|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#59a53f&quot;&gt;''talk with me!''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 18:33, 27 October 2025 (UTC)

:I think its just the nature of a small WMF sister project in that there are lots of drafts, gaps, and potential improvements. In this case, these community would need to vote on those proposed Wikiversity staff policies if we think they're ready. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 02:08, 3 December 2025 (UTC)
:What? I thought you were getting it approved, Juandev... :) [[User:I&amp;#39;m Mr. Chris|I&amp;#39;m Mr. Chris]] ([[User talk:I&amp;#39;m Mr. Chris|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/I&amp;#39;m Mr. Chris|contribs]]) 14:20, 12 February 2026 (UTC)
::Yeah I think this one is important too and we need to aprove it too @[[User:I'm Mr. Chris|I'm Mr. Chris]]. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 15:56, 12 February 2026 (UTC)
:::I thinks its ready to made into a policy, it seems to be complete and informative about what the rights does and how to get it. [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 03:08, 15 February 2026 (UTC)
::::Agree -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 11:00, 27 March 2026 (UTC)

Let's make this the official discussion about adopting the [[Wikiversity:Curators|curators policy]] policy. Your comments are invited and welcome. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 08:40, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
: There were two similar Colloquium threads in separate places about the proposed curators policy. So I've moved them to be adjacent. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 12:42, 1 May 2026 (UTC)
{{archive bottom}}

== Wikiversity:Curators to become a policy ==
{{archive top|There is strong consensus, so [[Wikiversity:Curators]] is now a policy. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 11:16, 9 May 2026 (UTC)}}
I've looked at the discussions about the Curators policy, I've looked at the practices, and it seems to me that there is no dispute about the wording of the policy, and what's more, the community has been using this proposal as if it were an offical policy for several years. Therefore, I propose that [[Wikiversity:Curators]] become a policy. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 18:35, 18 April 2026 (UTC)

:{{support}} —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 18:54, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
:{{support}} —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 20:21, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
: {{support|Yes, please}}. Especially after when I and PieWriter proposed above, I agree. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 14:27, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
:: @[[User:Juandev|Juandev]]; as of now, curators now have the user rights &lt;code&gt;autopatrol&lt;/code&gt; and &lt;code&gt;patrol&lt;/code&gt;. Perhaps we should also include that in [[Wikiversity:Custodianship]]? [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 12:07, 30 April 2026 (UTC)
:::You meant [[Wikiversity:Curators]] @[[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]]? [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 12:15, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
:::: I agree that we must develop what rules curators should follow when marking new pages as patrolled; the same can be added for custodians since they can also mark new pages as patrolled. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 13:37, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
:::::I see, well I think you can just add this to the policy. It is not major change and it probably reflects actual practice or actual technical possibilities for those flags. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 09:20, 7 May 2026 (UTC)
:{{support}} -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 12:42, 1 May 2026 (UTC)
:{{Support}} per nom. [[User:PhilDaBirdMan|PhilDaBirdMan]] ([[User talk:PhilDaBirdMan|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PhilDaBirdMan|contribs]]) 13:32, 1 May 2026 (UTC)
{{Archive bottom}}

== Inactive curators ==

Hello, even though [[Wikiversity:Curators]] is not a policy yet, there are curators listed here that have been inactive for two years or more:
* {{user|Cody naccarato}} (last edit on 13 Dec 2022, last logged action on 10 Dec 2022)
* {{user|Praxidicae}} (last edit on 10 Sep 2022, last logged action on 12 Sep 2022)
[[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 21:14, 19 April 2026 (UTC)

:Yup, I would remove the rights. To get the rights back if theyll come back should not be a big deal. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 20:08, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
:: When they don't reply by May 19, feel free (or any custodian) to do so. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 00:28, 25 April 2026 (UTC)

== Is anyone interested in Neurodiversity? ==

Is anyone interested in Neurodiversity? Is there anyone here who is interested for Neurodiversity to be &quot;something more&quot; than it already is? Does anyone here consider Neurodiversity one of the &quot;harder topics&quot; to work on or discuss? Does anyone here have an opinion about the [[Neurodiversity Movement]]? So these questions don't appear like &quot;out of a vacuum&quot; I can tell you a bit about my background:

Many years ago I got a psychiatric diagnosis &quot;Asperger's&quot;. After I stepped out of the office and my Äsperger's was 'concluded', I stepped out into the street and thought my first negative thought(but the positive thought followed after). The thought was about concentration camps in the second world war and that the world seemed to be going into the direction of &quot;labeling others&quot;. I was unsure whether this was &quot;real science&quot; and sort of &quot;challenged myself&quot; to make up my own mind after meeting people that had been given this diagnosis. The more adults with this diagnosis I met the more I started seeing &quot;patterns&quot;.

Was it a coincidence that the first person with Asperger's I met reminded me about my father later after I had plenty of times of experience with interacting with him? None of the people I interacted with online through IRC text chat...I felt I got any clue about how &quot;their brains work&quot;. Only when I met one person from the Asperger's chat community in person we both realized that whatever we experienced was akin to the &quot;chaos theory&quot;. He told me about &quot;chaos theory&quot; while I didn't know even what that term meant but I guess I 'read between the lines'. My question that I linger on still today is &quot;did he understand about me what I think I understood about him?&quot;? That our brains had the same configuration? Most autistic adults who meet other autistic adults usually get disappointed. They think the diagnosis will help them meet somebody like themselves and then they realize the great diversity in the autistic spectrum created by Psychiatry.

I later stopped interacting with autistic communities that much, I felt that it did not benefit me. Also Neurodiversity's &quot;neurotypes&quot; interested me for a while until I realized I had &quot;misunderstood everything&quot; about them and how they are used in the Neurodiversity Movement or &quot;Neurodiversity community&quot; if that even can precisely be defined? I doubt it but if you want to contribute to the [[Neurodiversity Movement]]. My previous attempts failed as I got more and more confused. I think a community project needs a community. With a lack of that I don't think it is worth my time. If any of you would like to work on that project let me know on my talk page.

So I was kinda lost and was talking to my friend and psychologist and I realized if I never talk about my idea to anyone in a &quot;comprehensive way&quot; or show that it matters to me nothing is going to ever happen. So I started talking about my &quot;idea&quot; more. Nobody could understand the &quot;idea&quot; because I had not developed my skills regarding where to start...although the process had already started &quot;automatically&quot; and that's why I often think of &quot;well my brain sort of activated me&quot;. I don't feel like I did have a plan and this idea happened. It happened &quot;by itself&quot;. My brain reacted to what I was seeing in a video or stream.

I value interaction highly in this idea. I think it would be helpful to make a community of people who are not paranoid about stuff that can express itself like &quot;don't analyze me!&quot;, &quot;don't compare me to anyone!&quot;. 

On the contrary, more often than not those adults who were diagnosed were actually openly comparing themselves with each other and I think that is healthy in a &quot;science&quot; way if done the &quot;right way&quot; which probably means &quot;Do no harm&quot;.

I found video material is important but I'm very unsure if uploading own video material to Wikimedia Commons would constitute a &quot;reasonable&quot; use of the resources there. Maybe somebody here needs to ask more questions to me that I should answer before that happens. I also know the '''be bold''' so I could just do what I think might be ok. Though I work better in a group as long as I know what &quot;group configurations&quot; help me. This is in a non-profit way. Since the state supported me this might be a way I am trying to &quot;give back&quot; to the state and &quot;the world&quot;. May seem overly ambitious and crazy but this thing gives me energy. It gives me hope when trying to develop this idea. [[User:ThinkingScience|ThinkingScience]] ([[User talk:ThinkingScience|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ThinkingScience|contribs]]) 10:47, 23 April 2026 (UTC)

:Thanks for sharing. There is plenty of room for neurodiversity community learning. However, the challenge I think is that the intersection of those interested in (a) ND, and (b) English Wikiversity might be very small (e.g., 1!) at this point in time.
:But don't give up hope. For example, Wikipedia has many more ND-interested editors; maybe consider reaching out to see who might be interested:
:[[w:Category:Wikipedians interested in neurodiversity]]
:You could also start an equivalent category here:
:[[:Category:Wikiversitarians interested in neurodiversity]] -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 04:46, 6 May 2026 (UTC)

== Request for comment (global AI policy) ==

&lt;bdi lang=&quot;en&quot; dir=&quot;ltr&quot; class=&quot;mw-content-ltr&quot;&gt;A [[:m:Requests for comment/Artificial intelligence policy|request for comment]] is currently being held to decide on a global AI policy. {{int:Feedback-thanks-title}} [[User:MediaWiki message delivery|MediaWiki message delivery]] ([[User talk:MediaWiki message delivery|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/MediaWiki message delivery|contribs]]) 00:58, 26 April 2026 (UTC)&lt;/bdi&gt;
&lt;!-- Message sent by User:Codename Noreste@metawiki using the list at https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Distribution_list/Global_message_delivery&amp;oldid=30424282 --&gt;

== Coming over From wikinews ==

Any chance someone could help me if you are allowed to write news articles here since wikinews is going read only mode soon, thank you! [[User:BigKrow|BigKrow]] ([[User talk:BigKrow|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/BigKrow|contribs]]) 22:43, 1 May 2026 (UTC)

:The scope of Wikiversity is very broad and is basically about more-or-less any learning material. We have made it a point to not have duplicative content of other WMF projects, but since Wikinews is being shuttered, I personally am fine with writing news articles here. One thing that is not controversial at all is a learning resource &lt;em&gt;about&lt;/em&gt; how to write news: that could be hugely useful here and could involve the process of writing news stories to learn and to share back and forth with an editor or fact-checker. In fact, I'd support an entire namespace dedicated to keeping the notion of Wikinews alive here. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 23:38, 1 May 2026 (UTC)
::Thank you so much! How do I start? Cheers! @[[User:Koavf|Koavf]] [[User:BigKrow|BigKrow]] ([[User talk:BigKrow|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/BigKrow|contribs]]) 01:07, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
:::I think it's premature to start just making news articles en masse, but if you want to start discussing the topic of citizen journalism, you can do that now. [[:Category:Journalism]] already has some material, so you can start by seeing what we already have, how you can refine that, etc. You can definitely have learning resources with collaborators who want to learn about journalism ASAP. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 01:24, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
::::thanks. [[User:BigKrow|BigKrow]] ([[User talk:BigKrow|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/BigKrow|contribs]]) 01:38, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
::::If I could try and start one News Article could you please tell me how to go about it? Like what style of writing like Wikinews or something else? Thank you Justin! @[[User:Koavf|Koavf]] [[User:BigKrow|BigKrow]] ([[User talk:BigKrow|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/BigKrow|contribs]]) 01:48, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
:::::Honestly, there are very few policies and guidelines here. I think the best way to write a news story would be in a manner that is obvious and instructive. So, for instance, it's common to use the &quot;pyramid style&quot; when you're writing news, so if you were to write a story that makes it very clear that you are using that approach, that would be helpful. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 02:08, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
::::::cool thanks. [[User:BigKrow|BigKrow]] ([[User talk:BigKrow|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/BigKrow|contribs]]) 02:13, 2 May 2026 (UTC)

== Language learning  ==

toki! I am trying to add or see what the toki pona language learning stuff on here is but I don't see anything that is language learning for anything. [[User:Jan Imon|Jan Imon]] ([[User talk:Jan Imon|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Jan Imon|contribs]]) 23:13, 2 May 2026 (UTC) —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 17:29, 3 May 2026 (UTC)

:We have language materials ([[:Category:Languages]], [[World Languages]], [[Portal:Foreign Language Learning]], [[Portal:Multilingual Studies]]). They are not as developed as I think we would all like and there's not any coverage of Toki Pona, but in principle, we could and would like that. You can also see [[:b:Subject:Languages]] at our sister project Wikibooks. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 17:33, 3 May 2026 (UTC)

== Timeline format? ==

I’ve been working on the World War II articles, including the [[World War II/Timeline|timeline]], and is there a specific timeline format that should be used? Right now it’s just a table, and there’s no separation between different periods/phases of the war.

I don’t want to use [[mw:Extension:EasyTimeline]] because this will be displaying dates and not time periods. [[User:PhilDaBirdMan|PhilDaBirdMan]] ([[User talk:PhilDaBirdMan|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PhilDaBirdMan|contribs]]) 01:35, 4 May 2026 (UTC)

:I dont think we have a policy or guideline, how to format a timeline. But you may try to browes wikiversity by Google if someone was dealing with this in the past somewhow @[[User:PhilDaBirdMan|PhilDaBirdMan]]. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 12:23, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
::+1 - there's no specific guideline on how to format a timeline, it's really up to you. In my opinion I think the timeline is good. I'd personally bold the dates just to make it easier to separate it from the event description, but that's my personal 2 cents. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 14:18, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
:::I’ll probably remove links to the dates/years, they’re just Wikipedia pages that shouldn’t be over linked to. [[User:PhilDaBirdMan|PhilDaBirdMan]] ([[User talk:PhilDaBirdMan|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PhilDaBirdMan|contribs]]) 00:39, 6 May 2026 (UTC)

== Interface administrator for Codename Noreste ==

Hello, everyone. I am requesting interface administrator access on this wiki.

The main reasoning is that I would benefit from having the user right &lt;code&gt;editinterface&lt;/code&gt;, which would allow me to make dark mode changes to pages in the MediaWiki namespace, add &lt;code&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;&lt;div class=&quot;mw-parser-output&quot;&gt;&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/code&gt; to some interface pages using templates, handle interface-protected edit requests, and similar stuff. Additionally, I have some knowledge of CSS, and I would like to assist with modifying CSS pages whenever necessary, such as moving MediaWiki common.css code to TemplateStyles CSS pages.

I am requesting the maximum time that is allowed per the [[Wikiversity:Interface administrators|policy]], and I have 2FA enabled on my account. Thank you. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 00:55, 6 May 2026 (UTC)

*{{support}} Globally trusted user. ―[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:black&quot;&gt;v&lt;/span&gt;f&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 01:07, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
*{{support}} Trusted and knowledgeable. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 04:35, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
*{{support}} WV would benefit from this. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 08:32, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
*{{support}} --[[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 09:13, 7 May 2026 (UTC)

:{{Comment}} Could @[[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] delete [[MediaWiki:Gadget-WikiSign.js]], which was requested to be deleted @[[User:Koavf|Justin]], @[[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]], @[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]]? I dont think we need it. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 07:40, 9 May 2026 (UTC)
::Yes - clearly no longer used -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 10:18, 9 May 2026 (UTC)
::: I can't delete it because I don't have the required permissions to do so.
::: On a side note, if this project has a need for permanent interface administrators, I would suggest that we have a minimum of two IAs, similar to how there must be two CUs and/or suppressors (or none). Maybe Koavf can be a good candidate if I am elected for permanent interface adminship, and I believe that permission shouldn't be removed from someone's own account. Instead, a bureaucrat should do it. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 13:20, 9 May 2026 (UTC)
::::I am willing and happy to do it, unfortunately, we do not have an appetite for indef IAs and just had a discussion that resulted in a [https://en.wikiversity.org/w/index.php?title=Wikiversity:Interface_administrators&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2807543 consensus that we can have IAs that have the user rights for 14 to 120 days]. So once you have the rights, please make sure to gopher it. ―[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:black&quot;&gt;v&lt;/span&gt;f&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 17:54, 9 May 2026 (UTC)

== [[Wikiversity:Bureaucratship]] to become a policy ==

Following the recent approval of [[Wikiversity:Curators]] as a policy, I think [[Wikiversity:Bureaucratship]] may also be ready for policy status.

Please share your views about whether bureaucratship is ready to become a policy, or whether further revisions are needed.

-- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 13:58, 9 May 2026 (UTC)
: I added a logo about that user group, but other than that, it looks good to me. {{support}}. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 14:38, 9 May 2026 (UTC)</text>
      <sha1>t6yfdqubnzy4rjyzu9yo1xs2wg3e1u7</sha1>
    </revision>
    <revision>
      <id>2808086</id>
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      <timestamp>2026-05-09T18:27:49Z</timestamp>
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        <username>Juandev</username>
        <id>2651</id>
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      <comment>/* Interface administrator for Codename Noreste */ Reply</comment>
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      <text bytes="79716" sha1="cigna39ocvovbm5sq59fepvhxyvj3c7" xml:space="preserve">{{Wikiversity:Colloquium/Header}}
&lt;!-- MESSAGES GO BELOW --&gt;
== Requested update to [[Wikiversity:Interface administrators]] ==

Currently, [[Wikiversity:Interface administrators]] is a policy that includes a caveat that interface admins are not required long-term and that user right can only be added for a period of up to two weeks. I am proposing that we remove this qualification and allow for indefinite interface admin status. I think this is useful because there are reasons for tweaking the site CSS or JavaScript (e.g. to comply with dark mode), add gadgets (e.g. importing Cat-a-Lot, which I would like to do), or otherwise modifying the site that could plausibly come up on an irregular basis and requiring the overhead of a bureaucrat to add the user rights is inefficient. In particular, I am also going to request this right if the community accepts indefinite interface admins. Thoughts? —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 23:23, 17 August 2025 (UTC)

:And who will then monitor them to make sure they don't damage the project in any way, or abuse the rights acquired in this way? For large projects, this might not be a problem, but for smaller projects like the English Wikiversity, I'm not sure if there are enough users who would say, something is happening here that shouldn't be happening. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 10:28, 20 August 2025 (UTC)
::Anyone would be who. This argument applies to any person with any advanced rights here. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 10:46, 20 August 2025 (UTC)
:I think it is reasonable to allow for longer periods of access than 2 weeks to interface admin and support adjusting the policy to allow for this flexibility. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 04:57, 2 December 2025 (UTC)
::+1 —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 16:38, 25 January 2026 (UTC)
:@[[User:Koavf|Koavf]] I agree that the two-week requirement could be revised, but wouldn’t people just request access for a specific purpose anyway? Instead of granting indefinite access, they should request the specific time frame they need the rights for—until the planned fixes are completed—and then request an extension if more time is required. We could remove the two-week criterion while still keeping the access explicitly temporary. [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 02:48, 25 January 2026 (UTC)
::I just don't see why this wiki needs to be different than all of the others. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 07:18, 25 January 2026 (UTC)
:::There isn’t really much of a need for a permanent one at this point in time [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 09:53, 25 January 2026 (UTC)
:I quite agree with this proposal, so long as they perform the suggested changes as mentioned here. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 04:06, 26 January 2026 (UTC)
:: Just to clarify, I support '''indefinite interface admin status'''. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 18:34, 13 April 2026 (UTC)
:I think there is decent consensus for lengthening this, but not necessarily for indefinite permissions, so does anyone object to me revising it to the standard being 120 days instead of two weeks? I'll check back on this thread in three weeks and if there's no objection, I'll make the change. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 20:47, 13 April 2026 (UTC)
::Sure [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 23:27, 13 April 2026 (UTC)
::Thanks for proposing this, Justin. I agree with the proposal to lengthen the interface admin period from 2 weeks but not indefinitely. Can I check the source(s) for the standard being 120 days (I'm guessing policies on other projects or maybe global policy?)? In any case, I think it is reasonable for us to adopt a similar period. However, note on the current policy discussion page notes from @[[User:Dave Braunschweig|Dave Braunschweig]] arguing for shorter periods to lower risk, that's why it is 2 weeks. But if there are projects that need longer access, that should also be accommodated. Maybe we could adjust the policy to specify that ''interface admin rights can be given for 14 to 120 days depending on how long is required and what is supported by the community''. Sincerely, James -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 08:29, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
:::There was there was no source for 120: it was just more than 14 and less than infinity. The &quot;14 to 120&quot; also seems reasonable. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 14:33, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
::: On some small/medium-sized wikis, such as English Wikibooks and English Wikiquote for example, indefinite interface administrator access for administrators is allowed, but they tend not to make changes to the CSS and JS page changes unless it's truly necessary. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 14:34, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
:::It's a good idea to make the length of this right on request or allow to be prolonged. However, IA should test large changes somewhere else, for example on the en.wv mirror, and only after testing it on the mirror, adapt it to the live version. That means I can't imagine a time-consuming operation right now. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 20:04, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
::::Sorry, what mirror is this? Are you talking about beta.wv? —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 20:32, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
:::::Not beta.wv. Basically somewhere else then on a live wiki. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 20:59, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
:::::: Wouldn't testing on a user's own common.css page work anyway? [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 21:36, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
:Change made here: https://en.wikiversity.org/w/index.php?title=Wikiversity%3AInterface_administrators&amp;diff=2807543&amp;oldid=2806289 —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 13:35, 4 May 2026 (UTC)

== [[Template:AI-generated]] ==

After going through the plethora of ChatGPT-generated pages made by [[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]] (with many more pages to go), I'd like community input on this proposal to [[Wikiversity:Artificial intelligence]] that I think would be benefical for the community:
*Resources generated by AI '''must''' be indicated as so through the project box, [[Template:AI-generated]], on either the page or the main resource (if the page is a part of a project).
I do not believe including a small note/reference that a page is AI-generated is sufficient, and I take my thinking from [[WV:Original research|Wikiversity's OR policy]] for OR work: ''Within Wikiversity, all original research should be clearly identified as such''. I believe resources created from AI should also be clearly indicated as such, especially since we are working on whether or not AI-generated resources should be allowed on the website (discussion is [[Wikiversity talk:Artificial intelligence|here]], for reference). This makes it easier for organizational purposes, and in the event ''if'' we ban AI-generated work. 

I've left a message on Lee's talk page over a week ago and did not get a response or acknowledgement, so I'd like for the community's input for this inclusion to the policy. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 15:53, 26 January 2026 (UTC)

:I believe that existing Wikiversity policies are sufficient. Authors are responsible for the accuracy and usefulness of the content that is published. This policy covers AI-generated content that is: 1) carefully reviewed by the author publishing it, and 2) the source is noted.   [[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]] ([[User talk:Lbeaumont|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Lbeaumont|contribs]]) 19:38, 27 January 2026 (UTC)
::A small reference for pages that are substantially filled with Chat-GPT entries, like [[Real Good Religion]], [[Attributing Blame]], [[Fostering Curiosity]], are not sufficient IMO and a project box would be the best indicator that a page is AI-generated (especially when there is a mixture of human created content AND AI-generated content, as present in a lot of your pages). This is useful, especially considering the notable issues with AI (including hallucinations and fabrication of details), so viewers and support staff are aware. These small notes left on the pages are not as easily viewable as a project box or banner would be. I really don't see the issue with a clear-label guideline. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 22:34, 27 January 2026 (UTC)
::{{ping|Lbeaumont}} I noticed your reversions [https://en.wikiversity.org/w/index.php?title=Exploring_Existential_Concerns&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2788278 here] &amp; [https://en.wikiversity.org/w/index.php?title=Subjective_Awareness&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2788257 here]. I'd prefer to have a clean conversation regarding this proposition. Please voice your concerns here. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 15:53, 28 January 2026 (UTC)
:::Regarding Subjective Awareness, I distinctly recall the effort I went to to write that the old-fashioned way. It is true that ChatGPT assisted me in augmenting the list of words suggested as candidate subjective states. This is a small section of the course, is clearly marked, and makes no factual claim. Marking the entire course as AI-generated is misleading. I would have made these comments when I reverted your edit; however, the revert button does not provide that opportunity.
:::Regarding the Exploring Existential Concerns course, please note this was adapted from my EmotionalCompetency.com website, which predates the availability of LLMs. The course does include two links, clearly labeled as ChatGPT-generated. Again, marking the entire course as AI-generated is misleading.
:::On a broader issue, I don't consider your opinions to have established a carefully debated and adopted Wikiversity policy. You went ahead and modified many of my courses over my clearly stated objections. Please let this issue play out more completely before editing my courses further. Thanks.   [[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]] ([[User talk:Lbeaumont|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Lbeaumont|contribs]]) 15:11, 29 January 2026 (UTC)
::::Understood, and I respect your position. I apologize if my edits were seen as overarching. We could change the project box to &quot;a portion of this resource was generated by AI&quot;, or something along those lines. Feel free to revert my changes where you see fit, and I encourage more users to provide their input. EDIT: I've made changes to the template to indicate that a portion of the content has been generated from an LLM. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 15:50, 29 January 2026 (UTC)
:::::Thanks for this reply. The new banner is unduly large and alarming. There is no need for alarm here. The use of AI is not harmful per se. Like any technology, it can be used to help or to harm. I take care to craft prompts carefully, point the LMM to reliable source materials, and to carefully read and verify the generated text before I publish it. This is all in keeping with long-established Wikiversity policy. We don't want to use a  [[w:One-drop_rule|one-drop rule]] here or cause a [[w:Satanic_panic|satanic panic]]. We can learn our lessons from history here. I don't see any pedagogical reason for establishing a classification of &quot;AI generated&quot;, but if there is a consensus that it is needed, perhaps it can be handled as just another category that learning resources can be assigned to. I would rather focus on identifying any errors in factual claims than on casting pejorative bias toward AI-generated content. An essay on the best practices for using LMM on Wikiveristy would be welcome.   [[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]] ([[User talk:Lbeaumont|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Lbeaumont|contribs]]) 15:58, 30 January 2026 (UTC)
::::::The new banner mimics the banner that is available on the English Wikibooks (see [[b:Template:AI-generated]] &amp; [[b:Template:Uses AI]]), so my revisions aren't unique in this aspect. At this point, I'd welcome other peoples' inputs. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 19:40, 30 January 2026 (UTC)

== How do I start making pages? ==
Is there a notability guideline for Wikiversity? What is the sourcing policy for information? What is the Manual of Style? What kind of educational content qualifies for Wikiversity? All the introduction pages are a bit unclear. 
[[User:VidanaliK|VidanaliK]] ([[User talk:VidanaliK|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/VidanaliK|contribs]]) 02:25, 28 January 2026 (UTC)

:{{ping|VidanaliK}} Welcome to Wikiversity! I've left you a welcome message on your talk page. That should help you out. Make sure to especially look at [[Wikiversity:Introduction]]. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 03:11, 28 January 2026 (UTC)
::It says that I can't post more pages because I have apparently exceeded the new page limit. How long does it take before that new page limit expires? [[User:VidanaliK|VidanaliK]] ([[User talk:VidanaliK|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/VidanaliK|contribs]]) 16:57, 28 January 2026 (UTC)
:::This is a restriction for new users so that Wikiversity is not hit with massive spam. As for when this limit will expire, it should be a few days or after a certain number of edits. It's easy to overcome, though I do not have the exact numbers atm. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 15:08, 29 January 2026 (UTC)
::::OK, I think I got past the limit. [[User:VidanaliK|VidanaliK]] ([[User talk:VidanaliK|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/VidanaliK|contribs]]) 17:21, 29 January 2026 (UTC)
==Why does it feel like Wikiversity is no longer really active anymore?==
I've been looking at recent changes, and both today and yesterday there haven't been many changes that I haven't made; it feels like walking through a ghost town, is this just me or is Wikiversity not really active anymore? [[User:VidanaliK|VidanaliK]] ([[User talk:VidanaliK|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/VidanaliK|contribs]]) 03:54, 30 January 2026 (UTC)

:There is fewer people editing these days compared to the past. Many newcomers tend to edit in Wikipedia instead. [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 06:39, 30 January 2026 (UTC)
:It’s a little slow, but I’m happy to know that Wikiversity is a place that I think should provide value even if the activity of editors fluctuates. If it’s any consolation your edits may be encouraging for some anonymous newcomer to start edits on their own! I think it’s hard to build community when there is such a wide variety of interests and a smaller starting userbase. Also sometimes the getting into a particular topic that already exists can be intimidating because some relics (large portals, school, categories, etc.) have intricate, unique and generally messy levels of organization. [[User:IanVG|IanVG]] ([[User talk:IanVG|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/IanVG|contribs]]) 22:16, 9 March 2026 (UTC)
:I'd say it comes down to working hard for Wikiversity, basically if somebody or a group of people will start presenting good ideas and they turn out to be provably stable.
:I even asked Google's &quot;AI Mode&quot;, what is Wikiversity famous for? Unfortunately it could not answer that.
:Simply, we have not made Wikiversity famous by presenting really provable stable ideas yet. My hope is that this time might come. Perhaps even this year 2026!
:Hope dies last. [[User:ThinkingScience|ThinkingScience]] ([[User talk:ThinkingScience|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ThinkingScience|contribs]]) 10:12, 27 April 2026 (UTC)

== Inactivity policy for Curators ==

I was wondering if there is a specific inactivity polity for curators (semi-admins) as I am pretty sure the global policy does not apply to them as they are not ''fully'' sysops. [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 03:20, 15 February 2026 (UTC)

:Unfortunately, I don't see an inactivity policy, but if we were to create such a new policy for curators, it should be the same for custodians (administrators). [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 18:45, 15 February 2026 (UTC)
::@[[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] There is currently none, that I could find, for custodians either. [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 00:47, 17 February 2026 (UTC)
:::I think we should propose a local inactivity policy for custodians (and by extension, curators), which should be at least one year without any edits ''and'' logged actions. However, I don't know which page should it be when the inactivity removal procedure starts. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 00:53, 17 February 2026 (UTC)
::::@[[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] In theory, there should be a section added at [[WV:Candidates for custodianship]] [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 00:55, 17 February 2026 (UTC)
::::: To be consistent with the [[meta:Admin activity review|global period of 2 years inactivity]] for en.wv  [[Wikiversity:Custodianship#Notes|Custodians]] and [[Wikiversity:Bureaucratship#How are bureaucrats removed?|Bureaucrats]] we could add something like this to [[Wikiversity:Curators]]:
::::::The maximum time period of inactivity &lt;u&gt;without community review&lt;/u&gt; for curators is two years (consistent with  the [[:meta:Category:Global policies|global policy]] described at [[meta:Admin activity review|Admin activity review]] which applies for [[Wikiversity:Custodianship#Notes|Custodians]] and [[Wikiversity:Bureaucratship|Bureaucrats]]). After that time a custodian will remove the rights.
::::: -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 10:51, 27 March 2026 (UTC)
:::::Yup, I agree with Jtneill, there is a policy proposal for Wikiversity:Curators, where it should be logically deployed. The question is if we are ready to aprove the policy. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 17:43, 17 April 2026 (UTC)
:::::: I agree, but we should notify the colloquium about inactive curators, just like a steward would do for inactive custodians and bureaucrats per [[:m:Admin activity review|AAR]]. What is the minimum timeframe an inactive curator should receive so they can respond they would keep their rights? [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 17:49, 17 April 2026 (UTC)
:I incorporated these suggestions into the proposed curators policy. Please review/comment/improve. Summary: 2 years, notify curator's user page, then remove rights after 1 month: [[Wikiversity:Curators#Inactivity]]. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 08:59, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
:: @[[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] I created [[Template:Inactive curator]] for this. Feel free to make any changes or improvements. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 14:29, 24 April 2026 (UTC)

== [[Wikiversity:Artificial intelligence]] to become an official policy ==
{{Archive top|After running for a week, there is consensus, alongside comments, for [[Wikiversity:Artificial intelligence]] to be implemented as an official policy. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 23:27, 17 April 2026 (UTC)}}
With the introduction of AI-material, and some material just plain disruptive, its imperative that Wikiversity catches up with its sister projects and implements an official AI policy that we can work with. The recent issue of [[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]]'s 50+ articles that contain significantly large AI-generated material has made me came to the Colloquium. This user has also been removing the [[Template:AI-generated]] template from their pages, calling it &quot;misleading&quot;, &quot;alarmist&quot;, and &quot;pejorative&quot; - which is all just simply nonsensical rationales. Not to even mention this user's contributions to the English Wikipedia have been [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Inner_Development_Goals contested] and [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Multipolar_trap removed] a couple of times (for being low-quality and clearly LLM-generated), highlighting the need for an actual policy to be implemented here on Wikiversity. I would like to ping {{ping|Juandev}} and {{ping|Jtneill}} for their thoughts as well, since I'd like this to be implemented as soon as possible. 

Wikiversity has a significant issue with implementing anti-disruptive measures, hence why we have received numerous complaints as a community about our quality. I originally was reverting the removal of the templates, but realized that this is still a proposed policy, which it shouldn't be anymore. It should be a recognized Wikiversity policy. 14:54, 10 March 2026 (UTC) —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 14:54, 10 March 2026 (UTC)

:@[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] '''I agree''' that the draft, should become official policy. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 17:00, 10 March 2026 (UTC)
:I provided a detailed response at: [[Wikiversity talk:Artificial intelligence#Evolving a Wikiversity policy on AI]]
:I will appreaciate it if you consder that carefully. [[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]] ([[User talk:Lbeaumont|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Lbeaumont|contribs]]) 22:49, 10 March 2026 (UTC)
:Agree it should become official Wikiversity policy on the condition &lt;u&gt;that point point 5 is about [significant/substantial] LLM-generated text specifically&lt;/u&gt;. Not a good idea to overuse it, it should be added when there is substantial AI-generated text on the page, not for other cases. [[User:Prototyperspective|Prototyperspective]] ([[User talk:Prototyperspective|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Prototyperspective|contribs]]) 12:37, 11 March 2026 (UTC)
:What policy is being debated? Is it the text on this page, which is pointed to by the general banner, or the text at:   [[Wikiversity:Artificial intelligence|Wikiversity:Artificial intelligence,]]   which is pointed to by the specific banner? Let's begin with coherence on the text being debated. Thanks!  [[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]] ([[User talk:Lbeaumont|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Lbeaumont|contribs]]) 11:49, 17 March 2026 (UTC)
::@[[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]] This is a call for approval of the new Wikiversity policy. You expressed your opinion [[Wikiversity talk:Artificial intelligence#Evolving a Wikiversity policy on AI|on the talk page of the proposal]], I replied to you and await your response.When creating policies, it is necessary to propose specific solutions. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 14:12, 17 March 2026 (UTC)
:::Toward a Justified and Parsimonious AI Policy 
:::As we collaborate to develop a consensus policy on the use of Large Language Models, it is wise to begin by considering the needs of the various stakeholders to the policy.
:::The stakeholders are:
:::1)     The users, 
:::2)     The source providers, and
:::3)     The editors
:::There may also be others with a minor stake in this policy, including the population at large.
:::The many needs of the users are currently addressed by long-standing [[Wikiversity:Policies|Wikiversity policies]], so we can focus on what, if any, additional needs arise as LLMs are deployed. 
:::As always, users need assurance that propositional statements are accurate. This is covered by the existing policy on [[Wikiversity:Verifiability|verifiably]]. In addition, it is expected by both the users and those that provide materials used as sources for the text are [[Wikiversity:Cite sources|accurately attributed]]. This is also covered by [[Wikiversity:Cite sources|existing policies]].
:::To respect the time and effort of editors, a parsimonious policy will unburden editors from costly requirements that exceed benefits to the users.
:::Finally, it is important to recognize that because attention is our most valuable seizing attention unnecessarily is a form of theft. 
:::The following proposed policy statement results from these considerations:
:::Recommended Policy statement:
:::·       Editors [[Wikiversity:Verifiability|verify the accuracy]] of propositional statements, regardless of the source.
:::·       Editors [[Wikiversity:Cite sources|attribute the source]] of propositional statements. In the case of LLM, cite the LLM model and the prompt used.
:::·       Use of various available templates to mark the use of LLM are optional. Templates that are flexible in noting the type and extend of LLM usage are preferred. Templates that avoid unduly distracting or alarming the user are preferred. [[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]] ([[User talk:Lbeaumont|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Lbeaumont|contribs]]) 19:56, 19 March 2026 (UTC)
::::Do we discuss here or there? I have replied you there as your proposal is about that policy so it is tradition to discuss it at the affected talk page. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 21:59, 19 March 2026 (UTC)
: {{support}} Thanks for the proposed policy development and discussion; also note proposed policy talk page discussion: [[Wikiversity talk:Artificial intelligence]] -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 12:05, 24 March 2026 (UTC)
::I think the Wikiversity AI policy shall be official. – [[User:RestoreAccess111|RestoreAccess111]] &lt;sup style=&quot;font-family:Arimo, Arial;&quot;&gt;[[User talk:RestoreAccess111|Talk!]]&lt;/sup&gt; &lt;sup style=&quot;font-family:Times New Roman, Tinos;&quot;&gt;[[Special:Contributions/RestoreAccess111|Watch!]]&lt;/sup&gt; 06:11, 13 April 2026 (UTC)
{{archive bottom}}

== New titles for user right nominations ==
&lt;div class=&quot;cd-moveMark&quot;&gt;''Moved from [[Wikiversity talk:Candidates for Custodianship#New titles for user right nominations]].  [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 23:20, 17 April 2026 (UTC)''&lt;/div&gt;

I would like to propose the following retitles should a user be nominated for any of the following user rights:
* Curator: Candidates for Curatorship
* Bureaucrat: Candidates for Bureaucratship
The reason is that many curator (and probably bureaucrat) requests have run solely under {{tq|Candidates for Custodianship}}, but that title might sound misleading (especially in regards to the permission a user is requesting). CheckUser and Oversight (suppressor) are not included above since no user was nominated for these sensitive permissions, probably. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 01:30, 19 March 2026 (UTC)

:And it's not that when someone at the beginning misplaced the request, no one thought to move it and the others copied it. Even today, it would be possible to simply take it all and move it. Otherwise, for me, the more fundamental problem is that there is [[Wikiversity:Curators|no approved policy for curators]] than where the requests are based. Curators then operate in a certain vacuum and if one of them &quot;breaks out of the chain&quot;, the average user doesn't have many transparent tools to deal with it, because there is no policy. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 07:02, 19 March 2026 (UTC)
::I am not talking about the curator page (policy proposal). [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 19:08, 21 March 2026 (UTC)
: @[[User:Juandev|Juandev]] I'll see if I can do an overhaul of [[Wikiversity:Candidates for Custodianship]], just like I recently did with the Requests for adminship page on English Wikiquote. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 22:17, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
:Yes, great idea - ideally there will be separate &quot;Candidates for ...&quot; pages for each user right group. The most important for now is to separate curator and custodian pages as CN suggests. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 11:39, 1 May 2026 (UTC)
:So maybe I previously misunderstood. Are you proposing separated pages for nominations (i.e. [[Wikiversity:Candidates for Curatorship]], [[Wikiversity:Candidates for Bureaucratship]], [[Wikiversity:Candidates for Custodianship]])? [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 12:30, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
:: Yes. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 13:33, 5 May 2026 (UTC)

== Technical Request:  Courtesy link.. ==

[[Template_talk:Information#Background_must_have_color_defined_as_well]] [[User:ShakespeareFan00|ShakespeareFan00]] ([[User talk:ShakespeareFan00|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ShakespeareFan00|contribs]]) 11:43, 20 March 2026 (UTC)
: I can't edit the template directly as it need an sysop/interface admin to do it. [[User:ShakespeareFan00|ShakespeareFan00]] ([[User talk:ShakespeareFan00|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ShakespeareFan00|contribs]]) 11:43, 20 March 2026 (UTC)
:: Also if the Template field of - https://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Special:LintErrors/night-mode-unaware-background-color is examined, there is poential for an admin to clear a substantial proportion of these by implmenting a simmilar fix to the indciated templates (and underlying stylesheets). It would be nice to clear things like Project box and others, as many other templates (and thus pages depend on them.) :)
[[User:ShakespeareFan00|ShakespeareFan00]] ([[User talk:ShakespeareFan00|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ShakespeareFan00|contribs]]) 11:43, 20 March 2026 (UTC)

:I think it would be best to grant you interface admin rights for a short period of time to make these changes. However, I still have doubts about the suitability of this solution, which may cause other problems and no one has explained to me why dark mode has to be implemented this way @[[User:ShakespeareFan00|ShakespeareFan00]]. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 20:43, 20 March 2026 (UTC)

: I would have reservations about holding such rights, which is why I was trying to do what I could without needing them. However if it is the only way to get the required changes made, I would suggest asking on Wikipedia to find technical editors, willing to undertake the changes needed. [[User:ShakespeareFan00|ShakespeareFan00]] ([[User talk:ShakespeareFan00|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ShakespeareFan00|contribs]]) 09:32, 21 March 2026 (UTC)

== WikiEducator has closed ==

Some of you may know of a similar project to Wikiversity, called [https://wikieducator.org/Main_Page WikiEducator], championed by [https://oerfoundation.org/about/staff/wayne-mackintosh/ Wayne Mackintosh][https://www.linkedin.com/posts/waynemackintosh_important-notice-about-the-oer-foundation-activity-7405113051688931329-Nhm9/][https://openeducation.nz/killed-not-starved/].

It seems [https://openeducation.nz/terminating-oer-foundation their foundation has closed] and they are no longer operating.

They had done quite a bit of outreach (e.g., in the Pacific and Africa) to get educators using wiki.

The WikiEducator content is still available in MediaWiki - and potentially could be imported to Wikiversity ([https://wikieducator.org/WikiEducator:Copyrights CC-BY-SA] is the default license).

The closing of WikiEducator arguably makes the nurturing of Wikiversity even more important.

-- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 02:09, 1 April 2026 (UTC)

:I was never active there. If anyone has an account or is otherwise in contact, we may want to copy relevant information here or even at [[:outreach:]]. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 04:46, 1 April 2026 (UTC)

:: I reached out to [[User:Mackiwg~enwikiversity|Wayne]] in January, and he responded briefly but positively (while travelling).  I wrote to the low-traffic wikieducator mailing list today and got a nice [https://groups.google.com/g/wikieducator/c/r_yIyUw6ZIA reply] from [[user:SteveFoerster|Steve Foerster]] who's interested in helping. If we can figure out a migration path it would be great to adopt at least the main namespace pages here.  
:: A few questions that come to mind: 
:: - would people want to create matching user accounts
:: - are there any namespaces (user/talk?) that should not be moved over
:: We could look at how this was done for the [[m:Wikivoyage/Migration]] wikivoyage migration. &lt;span style=&quot;padding:0 2px 0 2px;background-color:white;color:#bbb;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash;[[User:Sj|SJ]][[User Talk:Sj|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#ff9900;&quot;&gt;+&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 04:27, 1 May 2026 (UTC)
:::That's fantastic, SJ, that you've reached out and that Wayne, Steve, and Jim are receptive—and that you can help! -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 11:52, 1 May 2026 (UTC)

== Wikinews is ending ==

Apparently mainly due to low editorial activity, low public interest, but also failure to achieve the goals from the proposal for the creation of the project, the Wikinews project is ending after years of discussions ([[Meta:Proposal for Closing Wikinews|some reading]]).

And I would be interested to see how Wikiversity is doing in the monitored metrics. We probably have more editors than Wikinews had, but what about consumers and achieving the goals? [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 19:14, 1 April 2026 (UTC)

:Wikiversity's biggest issue in recent times was the hosting of low-quality, trash content. Thankfully we've done a great job in removing pseudoscience and other embarrassingly trash content (Wikidebates, for example), but the biggest concern moving forward is proper maintenance IMO. I've caught several pseudoscience pages being created within the last few months that could easily have flown under the radar (ex, [[The Kelemen Dilemma: Causal Collapse and Axiomatic Instability]]), so I'd urge our custodians/curators to be on the lookout for this type of content. Usually an AI-overview can point this type of content out relatively well.
:In terms of visibility, I believe Wikiversity is a high-traffic project. I remember my [[Mathematical Properties]] showing up on the first page of Google when searching up &quot;math properties&quot; for the longest time (and is still showing up in the first page 'till this day!). Besides, Wikinews hosted a lot of short-term content (the nature of news articles), while Wikiversity hosts content that can still be useful a decade later (ex, [[A Reader's Guide to Annotation]]). 
:I think we are on a better path than we were a few months ago, and I do want to thank everyone here who has been helping out with maintaining our website! —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 20:48, 1 April 2026 (UTC)
:For what it's worth, the group that did that study has since disbanded, so no one is monitoring the other sister projects in the same way. Additionally, Wikinews had some catastrophic server issues due to the maintenance of [[:m:Extension:DynamicPageList]] which don't apply here. Your questions are still worth addressing, but I just wanted to cut off any concern at the pass about Wikiversity being in the same precarious situation. Wikiversity is definitely the biggest &quot;lagging behind&quot; or &quot;failure&quot; project now that Wikinews is being shuttered, but I don't see any near- or medium-term pathway to closing Wikiversity. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 00:46, 2 April 2026 (UTC)

:[[w:en:Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2026-03-31/News and notes|Entirety of Wikinews to be shut down]] (Wikipedia Signpost) -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 02:03, 11 April 2026 (UTC)

== Action Required: Update templates/modules for electoral maps (Migrating from P1846 to P14226) ==

Hello everyone,

This is a notice regarding an ongoing data migration on Wikidata that may affect your election-related templates and Lua modules (such as &lt;code&gt;Module:Itemgroup/list&lt;/code&gt;).

'''The Change:'''&lt;br /&gt;
Currently, many templates pull electoral maps from Wikidata using the property [[:d:Property:P1846|P1846]], combined with the qualifier [[:d:Property:P180|P180]]: [[:d:Q19571328|Q19571328]]. 

We are migrating this data (across roughly 4,000 items) to a newly created, dedicated property: '''[[:d:Property:P14226|P14226]]'''.

'''What You Need To Do:'''&lt;br /&gt;
To ensure your templates and infoboxes do not break or lose their maps, please update your local code to fetch data from [[:d:Property:P14226|P14226]] instead of the old [[:d:Property:P1846|P1846]] + [[:d:Property:P180|P180]] structure. A [[m:Wikidata/Property Migration: P1846 to P14226/List|list of pages]] was generated using Wikimedia Global Search.

'''Deadline:'''&lt;br /&gt;
We are temporarily retaining the old data on [[:d:Property:P1846|P1846]] to allow for a smooth transition. However, to complete the data cleanup on Wikidata, the old [[:d:Property:P1846|P1846]] statements will be removed after '''May 1, 2026'''. Please update your modules and templates before this date to prevent any disruption to your wiki's election articles.

Let us know if you have any questions or need assistance with the query logic. Thank you for your help! [[User:ZI Jony|ZI Jony]] using [[User:MediaWiki message delivery|MediaWiki message delivery]] ([[User talk:MediaWiki message delivery|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/MediaWiki message delivery|contribs]]) 17:11, 3 April 2026 (UTC)
&lt;!-- Message sent by User:ZI Jony@metawiki using the list at https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Distribution_list/Non-Technical_Village_Pumps_distribution_list&amp;oldid=29941252 --&gt;
:I didnt find such properties, so we are probably fine. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 21:00, 12 April 2026 (UTC)
:: +1 (agreed). [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 22:19, 12 April 2026 (UTC)

== Enable the abuse filter block action? ==

In light of [[Special:AbuseLog/80178]] (coupon spam), I would like to propose enabling the block action for the abuse filter. Only custodians will be able to enable and disable that action on an abuse filter, and it is useful to block ongoing vandalism. Thoughts? [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 19:12, 13 April 2026 (UTC)

:Seems like a good idea, almost all of the users which create such pages are spambots so this shouldn’t be a problem. [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 23:41, 13 April 2026 (UTC)
:Can you explain some more (I am new to abuse filters)? It looks like the attempted edit was prevented? Which abuse filter?
:Note on your suggestion, have also reactivated Antispam Filter 12 - see [[WV:RCA]]. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 10:45, 15 April 2026 (UTC)
:: I am proposing that we activate the abuse filter block action, which if a user triggers an abuse filter, it would actually block the user in question - the same mechanism that a custodian would use to block users. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 13:11, 15 April 2026 (UTC)
:::OK, thankyou, that makes sense. And, reviewing the abuse filter 12 log, it would be helpful because it would prevent the need for manual blocking. But I don't see a setting for autoblocking? -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 23:14, 15 April 2026 (UTC)
:::: I think it probably adds an autoblock. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 00:43, 16 April 2026 (UTC)
: [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] and [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]], given that a little bit more than a week has passed and there is minimal consensus to activate the abuse filter block action, I filed [[phab:T424053]]. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 15:05, 21 April 2026 (UTC)
::Thank-you for doing this. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 08:03, 24 April 2026 (UTC)

== Advice needed: A Neurodiversity-inspired Idea/observation ==

If I want the greatest participation of others to &quot;provide constructive criticism to my idea&quot; or to &quot;shoot down my idea&quot; or &quot;idea&quot;.

What I've called it so far is &quot;The Neurodiversity-inspired Idea&quot;. At other times I used more sensationalist wording but here on Wikiversity I don't dare do that. I actually woke up with thinking about putting this into my userspace draft: &quot;Personal Observations Made By Meeting Autistic and Non-Autistic Adults&quot;.

My ultimate goal is to stop blathering about my &quot;idea&quot; to friend and family without feeling my &quot;methodology&quot; is going into any progressive direction whatsoever. My latest encounter was somewhat constructive though. A friend of a friend who worked with people presenting ideas in attempting to getting grants. I don't want a grant. I just want to figure out how I can express my &quot;idea&quot; in a way so that I can more clearly figure out what flaws it got.

At the same time I tend to overthink. If anyone thinks etherpad might be a good place and considering Wikimedia already got an etherpad at https://etherpad.wikimedia.org/ if anyone feels like they know me better in the future feel free to suggest a &quot;session&quot; on etherpad.

'''If I don't receive a reply to this in 1 week's time I will begin to explore this &quot;idea&quot; into my userspace''' unless you replied and refrained me from doing so, of course. Then maybe after &quot;developing it there&quot; I might reference it to you another future time here in the Colloquium, with my &quot;idea&quot; still in my userspace draft. This &quot;idea&quot; is sort of a burden, I'm happy I've made the choice to get rid of it and hopefully move on with my life, unless there is something to this &quot;idea&quot;. 

My failure is probably evident: I feel I haven't told you anything. Same happened to when I talked to friends and family. In danger of overthinking it further I'll publish this right now. I need to &quot;keep it together&quot; [[User:ThinkingScience|ThinkingScience]] ([[User talk:ThinkingScience|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ThinkingScience|contribs]]) 10:36, 16 April 2026 (UTC)

:Good on you putting it out there ... and hitting publish :). I'd say go for it (no need to wait), give birth to your idea and share about it here and elsewhere. Let it take shape and see where it might go. In many ways, this is exactly what an open collaborative learning community should be doing. Others might not know well how to respond, so perhaps consider creating some questions to accompany the idea. Sincerely, James -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 11:21, 16 April 2026 (UTC)
::Thank you for encouraging me in developing the idea.
::I have created a &quot;questions&quot; section in the draft which is visible in the table of contents now. My brain was &quot;frozen&quot; today metaphorically speaking in that I felt I had like a &quot;writer's block&quot; so the draft has more &quot;AI/LLM&quot; content than before. I used the LLM for generating questions. The answers are so far human-only.
::I've also created a subsection where I could add the prompts that made the LLM generate the questions. That could help people make better prompts perhaps. I've described what it is about inside of it and there are some chaotically written notes.
::[[Draft:The_Neurodiversity-inspired_Idea#Questions_that_might_encourage_the_development_of_this_idea_and_its_methodology]]
::My draft is missing stuff. Any questions that you contribute to my draft will probably help me and if I don't understand the questions I'll probably notify you and also at the same time &quot;feed them&quot; to an LLM and ask in my input like &quot;explain in simple words what this question means, what is it searching for?&quot; etc. while I wait for an answer. If you have any more feedback please give it to me here or on the Draft page, its talk page or my user talk page. Thank you for helping me! [[User:ThinkingScience|ThinkingScience]] ([[User talk:ThinkingScience|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ThinkingScience|contribs]]) 21:20, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
::Today I woke up with not only thinking about supplying questions along with the &quot;idea&quot; but also answers. ie. Is it possible to &quot;test&quot; this idea? Is it possible to create one or multiple hypotheses based on this &quot;idea&quot;?(etc.) I've thought about this before in this &quot;idea&quot; but since I'm beginning to add to Wikiversity what was previously 'locked in my mind' it's also easier for me to see what I've done so far. Thank you for this comment! [[User:ThinkingScience|ThinkingScience]] ([[User talk:ThinkingScience|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ThinkingScience|contribs]]) 09:11, 23 April 2026 (UTC)
:May I think that you should not add deadlines ; being read, and rising interest for collaboration, or even simply for exchange of thoughts, such an effective meeting event loads a huge bunch of unprobability, which time can help to… somehow diminish. Maybe, I would advice you having a central place for developping your ideas, your needs, your advances, maybe a page in your own user zone, and from time to time, depending your feeling, it could be every trimester or so, or more frequently, you could write a short account of progress (or even of no progress), or a call for participation, in such a place as this present one ; I think that will increase much exposure of your projet. Maybe also, if you can find a project name, not necessarily very meaningfull by itseilf (at least it will gain signification with time, as your project develops), that will serve as a kind-of hook, and make your announcement titles more visible. Best regards (and my excuses for my poor command of English, which seems to be unplease an anti-abuse filter, &quot;Questionable Language (profanity)&quot;, which I don't understand…). My few cents. --  [[User:Eric.LEWIN|Eric.LEWIN]] ([[User talk:Eric.LEWIN|discussion]] • [[Special:Contributions/Eric.LEWIN|contributions]]) 10:06, 17 April 2026 (UTC)
::Sorry about the false positive on the profanity filter - I've fixed it. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 10:26, 17 April 2026 (UTC)
:::&quot;May I think that you should not add deadlines ; being read, and rising interest for collaboration, or even simply for exchange of thoughts, such an effective meeting event loads a huge bunch of unprobability, which time can help to… somehow diminish.&quot;
::Thank you Eric for this comment. Trust in time is how I interpret it. I should not feel like I need to be in a hurry. I'll try to give this time. Thank you!
:::&quot;Maybe, I would advice you having a central place for developping your ideas, your needs, your advances, maybe a page in your own user zone, and from time to time, depending your feeling, it could be every trimester or so, or more frequently, you could write a short account of progress (or even of no progress), or a call for participation, in such a place as this present one ; I think that will increase much exposure of your projet.&quot;
::A central place for developing or making &quot;project notes&quot; regarding the Neurodiversity idea on my userspace, I might need that, like a diary or &quot;project notes&quot; of the Neurodiversity idea similar to my course notes regarding my experience with Coursera.
::Any actions I take are going to be related to my Userspace from now on but I'll also update the draft when necessary. Now in the beginning I might be working daily to once every 3 days on both the draft and the daily notes I plan to make.
:::&quot;Maybe also, if you can find a project name, not necessarily very meaningfull by itseilf (at least it will gain signification with time, as your project develops), that will serve as a kind-of hook, and make your announcement titles more visible.&quot;
::Thank you for the advice. I was brainstorming yesterday about it. I concluded that since I've not yet developed a methodology that adheres to &quot;Do no harm&quot; and this is my first time working my &quot;idea&quot; into a way that is compatible with how projects develop on English Wikiversity this is new to me. My methodology isn't developed and therefore trying to get attention to my project through a name can wait. Yesterday I figured out a silly title that has nothing to do with the project: &quot;Planetary Awareness Potato Cabbage Rolls&quot; or something like that. Google output read that no such thing exists so I wanted it mainly to be unique. I don't want to raise attention that I'm unsure whether I'll actually be capable of developing a methodology for but project notes is my best bet so far in tracking my progress. Every day I think about this &quot;idea&quot; but I need to improve the important parts.
:::&quot;Best regards (and my excuses for my poor command of English, which seems to be unplease an anti-abuse filter, &quot;Questionable Language (profanity)&quot;, which I don't understand…). My few cents.&quot;
::You added great points and I felt that I was helped by you! I encourage you to post again and I can understand that interacting with any kind of automated filter can be discouraging and can be for me too! Thank you for giving me feedback! [[User:ThinkingScience|ThinkingScience]] ([[User talk:ThinkingScience|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ThinkingScience|contribs]]) 16:01, 18 April 2026 (UTC)

== Add some user rights to the curator user group? ==

By default, only custodians have the ability to mark new pages as patrolled (&lt;code&gt;patrol&lt;/code&gt;) and have their own page creations automatically marked as patrolled (&lt;code&gt;autopatrol&lt;/code&gt;). I am proposing both of the following:
* Curators can mark new pages as patrolled, helping on reducing the backlog of new, unpatrolled pages.
* New pages made by curators will be automatically marked as patrolled by the MediaWiki software.
Before we implement this, I would suggest implementing a proposed guideline for marking new pages as patrolled for curators and custodians.

Thoughts? [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 16:32, 17 April 2026 (UTC)

:Agree, &lt;s&gt;also can we also allow curators to undelete pages since they already have the rights to delete them?&lt;/s&gt; [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 02:54, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
::I think the requirement that undelete NOT be included came from above (meta / stewards / central office). Having access to the undelete page gives access to information that is restricted by their policies to admins (custodians and bureaucrats). -- [[User:Dave Braunschweig|Dave Braunschweig]] ([[User talk:Dave Braunschweig|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dave Braunschweig|contribs]]) 20:12, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
::: [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]], unless if requests for curator and custodian should be RfA-like processes (that is, including voting and comments), then I have to agree with Dave above. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 22:03, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
::::Oh, I didn’t realise that. Withdrawing my comment.. [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 00:08, 19 April 2026 (UTC)
:{{support}} Seems reasonable and would reduce overhead. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 14:35, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
:'''Agree''', implement it also to [[Wikiversity:Curators]] proposal please. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 17:11, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
: I went ahead and filed [[phab:T424445]]. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 15:39, 26 April 2026 (UTC)

== [[Wikiversity:Curators|Curators and curators policy]] ==
{{archive top|There is strong consensus, so [[Wikiversity:Curators]] is now a policy. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 11:15, 9 May 2026 (UTC)}}
How does it come, that Wikiversity has curators, but Curators policy is still being proposed? How do the curators exists and act if the policy about them havent been approved yet? [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 18:33, 16 October 2025 (UTC)

:It looks as if it is not just curators. The policy on Bureaucratship is still being proposed as well. See [[Wikiversity:Bureaucratship]]. —[[User:RailwayEnthusiast2025|&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Verdana; color:#008000; text-shadow:gray 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em;&quot;&gt;RailwayEnthusiast2025&lt;/span&gt;]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:RailwayEnthusiast2025|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#59a53f&quot;&gt;''talk with me!''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 18:33, 27 October 2025 (UTC)

:I think its just the nature of a small WMF sister project in that there are lots of drafts, gaps, and potential improvements. In this case, these community would need to vote on those proposed Wikiversity staff policies if we think they're ready. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 02:08, 3 December 2025 (UTC)
:What? I thought you were getting it approved, Juandev... :) [[User:I&amp;#39;m Mr. Chris|I&amp;#39;m Mr. Chris]] ([[User talk:I&amp;#39;m Mr. Chris|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/I&amp;#39;m Mr. Chris|contribs]]) 14:20, 12 February 2026 (UTC)
::Yeah I think this one is important too and we need to aprove it too @[[User:I'm Mr. Chris|I'm Mr. Chris]]. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 15:56, 12 February 2026 (UTC)
:::I thinks its ready to made into a policy, it seems to be complete and informative about what the rights does and how to get it. [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 03:08, 15 February 2026 (UTC)
::::Agree -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 11:00, 27 March 2026 (UTC)

Let's make this the official discussion about adopting the [[Wikiversity:Curators|curators policy]] policy. Your comments are invited and welcome. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 08:40, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
: There were two similar Colloquium threads in separate places about the proposed curators policy. So I've moved them to be adjacent. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 12:42, 1 May 2026 (UTC)
{{archive bottom}}

== Wikiversity:Curators to become a policy ==
{{archive top|There is strong consensus, so [[Wikiversity:Curators]] is now a policy. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 11:16, 9 May 2026 (UTC)}}
I've looked at the discussions about the Curators policy, I've looked at the practices, and it seems to me that there is no dispute about the wording of the policy, and what's more, the community has been using this proposal as if it were an offical policy for several years. Therefore, I propose that [[Wikiversity:Curators]] become a policy. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 18:35, 18 April 2026 (UTC)

:{{support}} —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 18:54, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
:{{support}} —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 20:21, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
: {{support|Yes, please}}. Especially after when I and PieWriter proposed above, I agree. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 14:27, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
:: @[[User:Juandev|Juandev]]; as of now, curators now have the user rights &lt;code&gt;autopatrol&lt;/code&gt; and &lt;code&gt;patrol&lt;/code&gt;. Perhaps we should also include that in [[Wikiversity:Custodianship]]? [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 12:07, 30 April 2026 (UTC)
:::You meant [[Wikiversity:Curators]] @[[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]]? [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 12:15, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
:::: I agree that we must develop what rules curators should follow when marking new pages as patrolled; the same can be added for custodians since they can also mark new pages as patrolled. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 13:37, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
:::::I see, well I think you can just add this to the policy. It is not major change and it probably reflects actual practice or actual technical possibilities for those flags. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 09:20, 7 May 2026 (UTC)
:{{support}} -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 12:42, 1 May 2026 (UTC)
:{{Support}} per nom. [[User:PhilDaBirdMan|PhilDaBirdMan]] ([[User talk:PhilDaBirdMan|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PhilDaBirdMan|contribs]]) 13:32, 1 May 2026 (UTC)
{{Archive bottom}}

== Inactive curators ==

Hello, even though [[Wikiversity:Curators]] is not a policy yet, there are curators listed here that have been inactive for two years or more:
* {{user|Cody naccarato}} (last edit on 13 Dec 2022, last logged action on 10 Dec 2022)
* {{user|Praxidicae}} (last edit on 10 Sep 2022, last logged action on 12 Sep 2022)
[[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 21:14, 19 April 2026 (UTC)

:Yup, I would remove the rights. To get the rights back if theyll come back should not be a big deal. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 20:08, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
:: When they don't reply by May 19, feel free (or any custodian) to do so. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 00:28, 25 April 2026 (UTC)

== Is anyone interested in Neurodiversity? ==

Is anyone interested in Neurodiversity? Is there anyone here who is interested for Neurodiversity to be &quot;something more&quot; than it already is? Does anyone here consider Neurodiversity one of the &quot;harder topics&quot; to work on or discuss? Does anyone here have an opinion about the [[Neurodiversity Movement]]? So these questions don't appear like &quot;out of a vacuum&quot; I can tell you a bit about my background:

Many years ago I got a psychiatric diagnosis &quot;Asperger's&quot;. After I stepped out of the office and my Äsperger's was 'concluded', I stepped out into the street and thought my first negative thought(but the positive thought followed after). The thought was about concentration camps in the second world war and that the world seemed to be going into the direction of &quot;labeling others&quot;. I was unsure whether this was &quot;real science&quot; and sort of &quot;challenged myself&quot; to make up my own mind after meeting people that had been given this diagnosis. The more adults with this diagnosis I met the more I started seeing &quot;patterns&quot;.

Was it a coincidence that the first person with Asperger's I met reminded me about my father later after I had plenty of times of experience with interacting with him? None of the people I interacted with online through IRC text chat...I felt I got any clue about how &quot;their brains work&quot;. Only when I met one person from the Asperger's chat community in person we both realized that whatever we experienced was akin to the &quot;chaos theory&quot;. He told me about &quot;chaos theory&quot; while I didn't know even what that term meant but I guess I 'read between the lines'. My question that I linger on still today is &quot;did he understand about me what I think I understood about him?&quot;? That our brains had the same configuration? Most autistic adults who meet other autistic adults usually get disappointed. They think the diagnosis will help them meet somebody like themselves and then they realize the great diversity in the autistic spectrum created by Psychiatry.

I later stopped interacting with autistic communities that much, I felt that it did not benefit me. Also Neurodiversity's &quot;neurotypes&quot; interested me for a while until I realized I had &quot;misunderstood everything&quot; about them and how they are used in the Neurodiversity Movement or &quot;Neurodiversity community&quot; if that even can precisely be defined? I doubt it but if you want to contribute to the [[Neurodiversity Movement]]. My previous attempts failed as I got more and more confused. I think a community project needs a community. With a lack of that I don't think it is worth my time. If any of you would like to work on that project let me know on my talk page.

So I was kinda lost and was talking to my friend and psychologist and I realized if I never talk about my idea to anyone in a &quot;comprehensive way&quot; or show that it matters to me nothing is going to ever happen. So I started talking about my &quot;idea&quot; more. Nobody could understand the &quot;idea&quot; because I had not developed my skills regarding where to start...although the process had already started &quot;automatically&quot; and that's why I often think of &quot;well my brain sort of activated me&quot;. I don't feel like I did have a plan and this idea happened. It happened &quot;by itself&quot;. My brain reacted to what I was seeing in a video or stream.

I value interaction highly in this idea. I think it would be helpful to make a community of people who are not paranoid about stuff that can express itself like &quot;don't analyze me!&quot;, &quot;don't compare me to anyone!&quot;. 

On the contrary, more often than not those adults who were diagnosed were actually openly comparing themselves with each other and I think that is healthy in a &quot;science&quot; way if done the &quot;right way&quot; which probably means &quot;Do no harm&quot;.

I found video material is important but I'm very unsure if uploading own video material to Wikimedia Commons would constitute a &quot;reasonable&quot; use of the resources there. Maybe somebody here needs to ask more questions to me that I should answer before that happens. I also know the '''be bold''' so I could just do what I think might be ok. Though I work better in a group as long as I know what &quot;group configurations&quot; help me. This is in a non-profit way. Since the state supported me this might be a way I am trying to &quot;give back&quot; to the state and &quot;the world&quot;. May seem overly ambitious and crazy but this thing gives me energy. It gives me hope when trying to develop this idea. [[User:ThinkingScience|ThinkingScience]] ([[User talk:ThinkingScience|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ThinkingScience|contribs]]) 10:47, 23 April 2026 (UTC)

:Thanks for sharing. There is plenty of room for neurodiversity community learning. However, the challenge I think is that the intersection of those interested in (a) ND, and (b) English Wikiversity might be very small (e.g., 1!) at this point in time.
:But don't give up hope. For example, Wikipedia has many more ND-interested editors; maybe consider reaching out to see who might be interested:
:[[w:Category:Wikipedians interested in neurodiversity]]
:You could also start an equivalent category here:
:[[:Category:Wikiversitarians interested in neurodiversity]] -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 04:46, 6 May 2026 (UTC)

== Request for comment (global AI policy) ==

&lt;bdi lang=&quot;en&quot; dir=&quot;ltr&quot; class=&quot;mw-content-ltr&quot;&gt;A [[:m:Requests for comment/Artificial intelligence policy|request for comment]] is currently being held to decide on a global AI policy. {{int:Feedback-thanks-title}} [[User:MediaWiki message delivery|MediaWiki message delivery]] ([[User talk:MediaWiki message delivery|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/MediaWiki message delivery|contribs]]) 00:58, 26 April 2026 (UTC)&lt;/bdi&gt;
&lt;!-- Message sent by User:Codename Noreste@metawiki using the list at https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Distribution_list/Global_message_delivery&amp;oldid=30424282 --&gt;

== Coming over From wikinews ==

Any chance someone could help me if you are allowed to write news articles here since wikinews is going read only mode soon, thank you! [[User:BigKrow|BigKrow]] ([[User talk:BigKrow|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/BigKrow|contribs]]) 22:43, 1 May 2026 (UTC)

:The scope of Wikiversity is very broad and is basically about more-or-less any learning material. We have made it a point to not have duplicative content of other WMF projects, but since Wikinews is being shuttered, I personally am fine with writing news articles here. One thing that is not controversial at all is a learning resource &lt;em&gt;about&lt;/em&gt; how to write news: that could be hugely useful here and could involve the process of writing news stories to learn and to share back and forth with an editor or fact-checker. In fact, I'd support an entire namespace dedicated to keeping the notion of Wikinews alive here. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 23:38, 1 May 2026 (UTC)
::Thank you so much! How do I start? Cheers! @[[User:Koavf|Koavf]] [[User:BigKrow|BigKrow]] ([[User talk:BigKrow|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/BigKrow|contribs]]) 01:07, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
:::I think it's premature to start just making news articles en masse, but if you want to start discussing the topic of citizen journalism, you can do that now. [[:Category:Journalism]] already has some material, so you can start by seeing what we already have, how you can refine that, etc. You can definitely have learning resources with collaborators who want to learn about journalism ASAP. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 01:24, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
::::thanks. [[User:BigKrow|BigKrow]] ([[User talk:BigKrow|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/BigKrow|contribs]]) 01:38, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
::::If I could try and start one News Article could you please tell me how to go about it? Like what style of writing like Wikinews or something else? Thank you Justin! @[[User:Koavf|Koavf]] [[User:BigKrow|BigKrow]] ([[User talk:BigKrow|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/BigKrow|contribs]]) 01:48, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
:::::Honestly, there are very few policies and guidelines here. I think the best way to write a news story would be in a manner that is obvious and instructive. So, for instance, it's common to use the &quot;pyramid style&quot; when you're writing news, so if you were to write a story that makes it very clear that you are using that approach, that would be helpful. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 02:08, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
::::::cool thanks. [[User:BigKrow|BigKrow]] ([[User talk:BigKrow|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/BigKrow|contribs]]) 02:13, 2 May 2026 (UTC)

== Language learning  ==

toki! I am trying to add or see what the toki pona language learning stuff on here is but I don't see anything that is language learning for anything. [[User:Jan Imon|Jan Imon]] ([[User talk:Jan Imon|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Jan Imon|contribs]]) 23:13, 2 May 2026 (UTC) —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 17:29, 3 May 2026 (UTC)

:We have language materials ([[:Category:Languages]], [[World Languages]], [[Portal:Foreign Language Learning]], [[Portal:Multilingual Studies]]). They are not as developed as I think we would all like and there's not any coverage of Toki Pona, but in principle, we could and would like that. You can also see [[:b:Subject:Languages]] at our sister project Wikibooks. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 17:33, 3 May 2026 (UTC)

== Timeline format? ==

I’ve been working on the World War II articles, including the [[World War II/Timeline|timeline]], and is there a specific timeline format that should be used? Right now it’s just a table, and there’s no separation between different periods/phases of the war.

I don’t want to use [[mw:Extension:EasyTimeline]] because this will be displaying dates and not time periods. [[User:PhilDaBirdMan|PhilDaBirdMan]] ([[User talk:PhilDaBirdMan|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PhilDaBirdMan|contribs]]) 01:35, 4 May 2026 (UTC)

:I dont think we have a policy or guideline, how to format a timeline. But you may try to browes wikiversity by Google if someone was dealing with this in the past somewhow @[[User:PhilDaBirdMan|PhilDaBirdMan]]. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 12:23, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
::+1 - there's no specific guideline on how to format a timeline, it's really up to you. In my opinion I think the timeline is good. I'd personally bold the dates just to make it easier to separate it from the event description, but that's my personal 2 cents. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 14:18, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
:::I’ll probably remove links to the dates/years, they’re just Wikipedia pages that shouldn’t be over linked to. [[User:PhilDaBirdMan|PhilDaBirdMan]] ([[User talk:PhilDaBirdMan|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PhilDaBirdMan|contribs]]) 00:39, 6 May 2026 (UTC)

== Interface administrator for Codename Noreste ==

Hello, everyone. I am requesting interface administrator access on this wiki.

The main reasoning is that I would benefit from having the user right &lt;code&gt;editinterface&lt;/code&gt;, which would allow me to make dark mode changes to pages in the MediaWiki namespace, add &lt;code&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;&lt;div class=&quot;mw-parser-output&quot;&gt;&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/code&gt; to some interface pages using templates, handle interface-protected edit requests, and similar stuff. Additionally, I have some knowledge of CSS, and I would like to assist with modifying CSS pages whenever necessary, such as moving MediaWiki common.css code to TemplateStyles CSS pages.

I am requesting the maximum time that is allowed per the [[Wikiversity:Interface administrators|policy]], and I have 2FA enabled on my account. Thank you. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 00:55, 6 May 2026 (UTC)

*{{support}} Globally trusted user. ―[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:black&quot;&gt;v&lt;/span&gt;f&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 01:07, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
*{{support}} Trusted and knowledgeable. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 04:35, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
*{{support}} WV would benefit from this. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 08:32, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
*{{support}} --[[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 09:13, 7 May 2026 (UTC)

:{{Comment}} Could @[[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] delete [[MediaWiki:Gadget-WikiSign.js]], which was requested to be deleted @[[User:Koavf|Justin]], @[[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]], @[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]]? I dont think we need it. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 07:40, 9 May 2026 (UTC)
::Yes - clearly no longer used -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 10:18, 9 May 2026 (UTC)
::: I can't delete it because I don't have the required permissions to do so.
::: On a side note, if this project has a need for permanent interface administrators, I would suggest that we have a minimum of two IAs, similar to how there must be two CUs and/or suppressors (or none). Maybe Koavf can be a good candidate if I am elected for permanent interface adminship, and I believe that permission shouldn't be removed from someone's own account. Instead, a bureaucrat should do it. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 13:20, 9 May 2026 (UTC)
::::I am willing and happy to do it, unfortunately, we do not have an appetite for indef IAs and just had a discussion that resulted in a [https://en.wikiversity.org/w/index.php?title=Wikiversity:Interface_administrators&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2807543 consensus that we can have IAs that have the user rights for 14 to 120 days]. So once you have the rights, please make sure to gopher it. ―[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:black&quot;&gt;v&lt;/span&gt;f&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 17:54, 9 May 2026 (UTC)
::::Complicated. Where are the times, admins could do everything! [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 18:27, 9 May 2026 (UTC)

== [[Wikiversity:Bureaucratship]] to become a policy ==

Following the recent approval of [[Wikiversity:Curators]] as a policy, I think [[Wikiversity:Bureaucratship]] may also be ready for policy status.

Please share your views about whether bureaucratship is ready to become a policy, or whether further revisions are needed.

-- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 13:58, 9 May 2026 (UTC)
: I added a logo about that user group, but other than that, it looks good to me. {{support}}. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 14:38, 9 May 2026 (UTC)</text>
      <sha1>cigna39ocvovbm5sq59fepvhxyvj3c7</sha1>
    </revision>
    <revision>
      <id>2808087</id>
      <parentid>2808086</parentid>
      <timestamp>2026-05-09T18:31:21Z</timestamp>
      <contributor>
        <username>Juandev</username>
        <id>2651</id>
      </contributor>
      <comment>/* Interface administrator for Codename Noreste */ Reply</comment>
      <origin>2808087</origin>
      <model>wikitext</model>
      <format>text/x-wiki</format>
      <text bytes="80021" sha1="nbt1gabnqcuiaw9l7etf72ze82ekswt" xml:space="preserve">{{Wikiversity:Colloquium/Header}}
&lt;!-- MESSAGES GO BELOW --&gt;
== Requested update to [[Wikiversity:Interface administrators]] ==

Currently, [[Wikiversity:Interface administrators]] is a policy that includes a caveat that interface admins are not required long-term and that user right can only be added for a period of up to two weeks. I am proposing that we remove this qualification and allow for indefinite interface admin status. I think this is useful because there are reasons for tweaking the site CSS or JavaScript (e.g. to comply with dark mode), add gadgets (e.g. importing Cat-a-Lot, which I would like to do), or otherwise modifying the site that could plausibly come up on an irregular basis and requiring the overhead of a bureaucrat to add the user rights is inefficient. In particular, I am also going to request this right if the community accepts indefinite interface admins. Thoughts? —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 23:23, 17 August 2025 (UTC)

:And who will then monitor them to make sure they don't damage the project in any way, or abuse the rights acquired in this way? For large projects, this might not be a problem, but for smaller projects like the English Wikiversity, I'm not sure if there are enough users who would say, something is happening here that shouldn't be happening. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 10:28, 20 August 2025 (UTC)
::Anyone would be who. This argument applies to any person with any advanced rights here. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 10:46, 20 August 2025 (UTC)
:I think it is reasonable to allow for longer periods of access than 2 weeks to interface admin and support adjusting the policy to allow for this flexibility. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 04:57, 2 December 2025 (UTC)
::+1 —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 16:38, 25 January 2026 (UTC)
:@[[User:Koavf|Koavf]] I agree that the two-week requirement could be revised, but wouldn’t people just request access for a specific purpose anyway? Instead of granting indefinite access, they should request the specific time frame they need the rights for—until the planned fixes are completed—and then request an extension if more time is required. We could remove the two-week criterion while still keeping the access explicitly temporary. [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 02:48, 25 January 2026 (UTC)
::I just don't see why this wiki needs to be different than all of the others. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 07:18, 25 January 2026 (UTC)
:::There isn’t really much of a need for a permanent one at this point in time [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 09:53, 25 January 2026 (UTC)
:I quite agree with this proposal, so long as they perform the suggested changes as mentioned here. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 04:06, 26 January 2026 (UTC)
:: Just to clarify, I support '''indefinite interface admin status'''. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 18:34, 13 April 2026 (UTC)
:I think there is decent consensus for lengthening this, but not necessarily for indefinite permissions, so does anyone object to me revising it to the standard being 120 days instead of two weeks? I'll check back on this thread in three weeks and if there's no objection, I'll make the change. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 20:47, 13 April 2026 (UTC)
::Sure [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 23:27, 13 April 2026 (UTC)
::Thanks for proposing this, Justin. I agree with the proposal to lengthen the interface admin period from 2 weeks but not indefinitely. Can I check the source(s) for the standard being 120 days (I'm guessing policies on other projects or maybe global policy?)? In any case, I think it is reasonable for us to adopt a similar period. However, note on the current policy discussion page notes from @[[User:Dave Braunschweig|Dave Braunschweig]] arguing for shorter periods to lower risk, that's why it is 2 weeks. But if there are projects that need longer access, that should also be accommodated. Maybe we could adjust the policy to specify that ''interface admin rights can be given for 14 to 120 days depending on how long is required and what is supported by the community''. Sincerely, James -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 08:29, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
:::There was there was no source for 120: it was just more than 14 and less than infinity. The &quot;14 to 120&quot; also seems reasonable. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 14:33, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
::: On some small/medium-sized wikis, such as English Wikibooks and English Wikiquote for example, indefinite interface administrator access for administrators is allowed, but they tend not to make changes to the CSS and JS page changes unless it's truly necessary. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 14:34, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
:::It's a good idea to make the length of this right on request or allow to be prolonged. However, IA should test large changes somewhere else, for example on the en.wv mirror, and only after testing it on the mirror, adapt it to the live version. That means I can't imagine a time-consuming operation right now. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 20:04, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
::::Sorry, what mirror is this? Are you talking about beta.wv? —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 20:32, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
:::::Not beta.wv. Basically somewhere else then on a live wiki. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 20:59, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
:::::: Wouldn't testing on a user's own common.css page work anyway? [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 21:36, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
:Change made here: https://en.wikiversity.org/w/index.php?title=Wikiversity%3AInterface_administrators&amp;diff=2807543&amp;oldid=2806289 —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 13:35, 4 May 2026 (UTC)

== [[Template:AI-generated]] ==

After going through the plethora of ChatGPT-generated pages made by [[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]] (with many more pages to go), I'd like community input on this proposal to [[Wikiversity:Artificial intelligence]] that I think would be benefical for the community:
*Resources generated by AI '''must''' be indicated as so through the project box, [[Template:AI-generated]], on either the page or the main resource (if the page is a part of a project).
I do not believe including a small note/reference that a page is AI-generated is sufficient, and I take my thinking from [[WV:Original research|Wikiversity's OR policy]] for OR work: ''Within Wikiversity, all original research should be clearly identified as such''. I believe resources created from AI should also be clearly indicated as such, especially since we are working on whether or not AI-generated resources should be allowed on the website (discussion is [[Wikiversity talk:Artificial intelligence|here]], for reference). This makes it easier for organizational purposes, and in the event ''if'' we ban AI-generated work. 

I've left a message on Lee's talk page over a week ago and did not get a response or acknowledgement, so I'd like for the community's input for this inclusion to the policy. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 15:53, 26 January 2026 (UTC)

:I believe that existing Wikiversity policies are sufficient. Authors are responsible for the accuracy and usefulness of the content that is published. This policy covers AI-generated content that is: 1) carefully reviewed by the author publishing it, and 2) the source is noted.   [[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]] ([[User talk:Lbeaumont|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Lbeaumont|contribs]]) 19:38, 27 January 2026 (UTC)
::A small reference for pages that are substantially filled with Chat-GPT entries, like [[Real Good Religion]], [[Attributing Blame]], [[Fostering Curiosity]], are not sufficient IMO and a project box would be the best indicator that a page is AI-generated (especially when there is a mixture of human created content AND AI-generated content, as present in a lot of your pages). This is useful, especially considering the notable issues with AI (including hallucinations and fabrication of details), so viewers and support staff are aware. These small notes left on the pages are not as easily viewable as a project box or banner would be. I really don't see the issue with a clear-label guideline. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 22:34, 27 January 2026 (UTC)
::{{ping|Lbeaumont}} I noticed your reversions [https://en.wikiversity.org/w/index.php?title=Exploring_Existential_Concerns&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2788278 here] &amp; [https://en.wikiversity.org/w/index.php?title=Subjective_Awareness&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2788257 here]. I'd prefer to have a clean conversation regarding this proposition. Please voice your concerns here. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 15:53, 28 January 2026 (UTC)
:::Regarding Subjective Awareness, I distinctly recall the effort I went to to write that the old-fashioned way. It is true that ChatGPT assisted me in augmenting the list of words suggested as candidate subjective states. This is a small section of the course, is clearly marked, and makes no factual claim. Marking the entire course as AI-generated is misleading. I would have made these comments when I reverted your edit; however, the revert button does not provide that opportunity.
:::Regarding the Exploring Existential Concerns course, please note this was adapted from my EmotionalCompetency.com website, which predates the availability of LLMs. The course does include two links, clearly labeled as ChatGPT-generated. Again, marking the entire course as AI-generated is misleading.
:::On a broader issue, I don't consider your opinions to have established a carefully debated and adopted Wikiversity policy. You went ahead and modified many of my courses over my clearly stated objections. Please let this issue play out more completely before editing my courses further. Thanks.   [[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]] ([[User talk:Lbeaumont|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Lbeaumont|contribs]]) 15:11, 29 January 2026 (UTC)
::::Understood, and I respect your position. I apologize if my edits were seen as overarching. We could change the project box to &quot;a portion of this resource was generated by AI&quot;, or something along those lines. Feel free to revert my changes where you see fit, and I encourage more users to provide their input. EDIT: I've made changes to the template to indicate that a portion of the content has been generated from an LLM. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 15:50, 29 January 2026 (UTC)
:::::Thanks for this reply. The new banner is unduly large and alarming. There is no need for alarm here. The use of AI is not harmful per se. Like any technology, it can be used to help or to harm. I take care to craft prompts carefully, point the LMM to reliable source materials, and to carefully read and verify the generated text before I publish it. This is all in keeping with long-established Wikiversity policy. We don't want to use a  [[w:One-drop_rule|one-drop rule]] here or cause a [[w:Satanic_panic|satanic panic]]. We can learn our lessons from history here. I don't see any pedagogical reason for establishing a classification of &quot;AI generated&quot;, but if there is a consensus that it is needed, perhaps it can be handled as just another category that learning resources can be assigned to. I would rather focus on identifying any errors in factual claims than on casting pejorative bias toward AI-generated content. An essay on the best practices for using LMM on Wikiveristy would be welcome.   [[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]] ([[User talk:Lbeaumont|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Lbeaumont|contribs]]) 15:58, 30 January 2026 (UTC)
::::::The new banner mimics the banner that is available on the English Wikibooks (see [[b:Template:AI-generated]] &amp; [[b:Template:Uses AI]]), so my revisions aren't unique in this aspect. At this point, I'd welcome other peoples' inputs. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 19:40, 30 January 2026 (UTC)

== How do I start making pages? ==
Is there a notability guideline for Wikiversity? What is the sourcing policy for information? What is the Manual of Style? What kind of educational content qualifies for Wikiversity? All the introduction pages are a bit unclear. 
[[User:VidanaliK|VidanaliK]] ([[User talk:VidanaliK|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/VidanaliK|contribs]]) 02:25, 28 January 2026 (UTC)

:{{ping|VidanaliK}} Welcome to Wikiversity! I've left you a welcome message on your talk page. That should help you out. Make sure to especially look at [[Wikiversity:Introduction]]. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 03:11, 28 January 2026 (UTC)
::It says that I can't post more pages because I have apparently exceeded the new page limit. How long does it take before that new page limit expires? [[User:VidanaliK|VidanaliK]] ([[User talk:VidanaliK|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/VidanaliK|contribs]]) 16:57, 28 January 2026 (UTC)
:::This is a restriction for new users so that Wikiversity is not hit with massive spam. As for when this limit will expire, it should be a few days or after a certain number of edits. It's easy to overcome, though I do not have the exact numbers atm. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 15:08, 29 January 2026 (UTC)
::::OK, I think I got past the limit. [[User:VidanaliK|VidanaliK]] ([[User talk:VidanaliK|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/VidanaliK|contribs]]) 17:21, 29 January 2026 (UTC)
==Why does it feel like Wikiversity is no longer really active anymore?==
I've been looking at recent changes, and both today and yesterday there haven't been many changes that I haven't made; it feels like walking through a ghost town, is this just me or is Wikiversity not really active anymore? [[User:VidanaliK|VidanaliK]] ([[User talk:VidanaliK|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/VidanaliK|contribs]]) 03:54, 30 January 2026 (UTC)

:There is fewer people editing these days compared to the past. Many newcomers tend to edit in Wikipedia instead. [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 06:39, 30 January 2026 (UTC)
:It’s a little slow, but I’m happy to know that Wikiversity is a place that I think should provide value even if the activity of editors fluctuates. If it’s any consolation your edits may be encouraging for some anonymous newcomer to start edits on their own! I think it’s hard to build community when there is such a wide variety of interests and a smaller starting userbase. Also sometimes the getting into a particular topic that already exists can be intimidating because some relics (large portals, school, categories, etc.) have intricate, unique and generally messy levels of organization. [[User:IanVG|IanVG]] ([[User talk:IanVG|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/IanVG|contribs]]) 22:16, 9 March 2026 (UTC)
:I'd say it comes down to working hard for Wikiversity, basically if somebody or a group of people will start presenting good ideas and they turn out to be provably stable.
:I even asked Google's &quot;AI Mode&quot;, what is Wikiversity famous for? Unfortunately it could not answer that.
:Simply, we have not made Wikiversity famous by presenting really provable stable ideas yet. My hope is that this time might come. Perhaps even this year 2026!
:Hope dies last. [[User:ThinkingScience|ThinkingScience]] ([[User talk:ThinkingScience|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ThinkingScience|contribs]]) 10:12, 27 April 2026 (UTC)

== Inactivity policy for Curators ==

I was wondering if there is a specific inactivity polity for curators (semi-admins) as I am pretty sure the global policy does not apply to them as they are not ''fully'' sysops. [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 03:20, 15 February 2026 (UTC)

:Unfortunately, I don't see an inactivity policy, but if we were to create such a new policy for curators, it should be the same for custodians (administrators). [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 18:45, 15 February 2026 (UTC)
::@[[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] There is currently none, that I could find, for custodians either. [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 00:47, 17 February 2026 (UTC)
:::I think we should propose a local inactivity policy for custodians (and by extension, curators), which should be at least one year without any edits ''and'' logged actions. However, I don't know which page should it be when the inactivity removal procedure starts. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 00:53, 17 February 2026 (UTC)
::::@[[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] In theory, there should be a section added at [[WV:Candidates for custodianship]] [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 00:55, 17 February 2026 (UTC)
::::: To be consistent with the [[meta:Admin activity review|global period of 2 years inactivity]] for en.wv  [[Wikiversity:Custodianship#Notes|Custodians]] and [[Wikiversity:Bureaucratship#How are bureaucrats removed?|Bureaucrats]] we could add something like this to [[Wikiversity:Curators]]:
::::::The maximum time period of inactivity &lt;u&gt;without community review&lt;/u&gt; for curators is two years (consistent with  the [[:meta:Category:Global policies|global policy]] described at [[meta:Admin activity review|Admin activity review]] which applies for [[Wikiversity:Custodianship#Notes|Custodians]] and [[Wikiversity:Bureaucratship|Bureaucrats]]). After that time a custodian will remove the rights.
::::: -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 10:51, 27 March 2026 (UTC)
:::::Yup, I agree with Jtneill, there is a policy proposal for Wikiversity:Curators, where it should be logically deployed. The question is if we are ready to aprove the policy. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 17:43, 17 April 2026 (UTC)
:::::: I agree, but we should notify the colloquium about inactive curators, just like a steward would do for inactive custodians and bureaucrats per [[:m:Admin activity review|AAR]]. What is the minimum timeframe an inactive curator should receive so they can respond they would keep their rights? [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 17:49, 17 April 2026 (UTC)
:I incorporated these suggestions into the proposed curators policy. Please review/comment/improve. Summary: 2 years, notify curator's user page, then remove rights after 1 month: [[Wikiversity:Curators#Inactivity]]. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 08:59, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
:: @[[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] I created [[Template:Inactive curator]] for this. Feel free to make any changes or improvements. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 14:29, 24 April 2026 (UTC)

== [[Wikiversity:Artificial intelligence]] to become an official policy ==
{{Archive top|After running for a week, there is consensus, alongside comments, for [[Wikiversity:Artificial intelligence]] to be implemented as an official policy. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 23:27, 17 April 2026 (UTC)}}
With the introduction of AI-material, and some material just plain disruptive, its imperative that Wikiversity catches up with its sister projects and implements an official AI policy that we can work with. The recent issue of [[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]]'s 50+ articles that contain significantly large AI-generated material has made me came to the Colloquium. This user has also been removing the [[Template:AI-generated]] template from their pages, calling it &quot;misleading&quot;, &quot;alarmist&quot;, and &quot;pejorative&quot; - which is all just simply nonsensical rationales. Not to even mention this user's contributions to the English Wikipedia have been [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Inner_Development_Goals contested] and [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Multipolar_trap removed] a couple of times (for being low-quality and clearly LLM-generated), highlighting the need for an actual policy to be implemented here on Wikiversity. I would like to ping {{ping|Juandev}} and {{ping|Jtneill}} for their thoughts as well, since I'd like this to be implemented as soon as possible. 

Wikiversity has a significant issue with implementing anti-disruptive measures, hence why we have received numerous complaints as a community about our quality. I originally was reverting the removal of the templates, but realized that this is still a proposed policy, which it shouldn't be anymore. It should be a recognized Wikiversity policy. 14:54, 10 March 2026 (UTC) —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 14:54, 10 March 2026 (UTC)

:@[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] '''I agree''' that the draft, should become official policy. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 17:00, 10 March 2026 (UTC)
:I provided a detailed response at: [[Wikiversity talk:Artificial intelligence#Evolving a Wikiversity policy on AI]]
:I will appreaciate it if you consder that carefully. [[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]] ([[User talk:Lbeaumont|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Lbeaumont|contribs]]) 22:49, 10 March 2026 (UTC)
:Agree it should become official Wikiversity policy on the condition &lt;u&gt;that point point 5 is about [significant/substantial] LLM-generated text specifically&lt;/u&gt;. Not a good idea to overuse it, it should be added when there is substantial AI-generated text on the page, not for other cases. [[User:Prototyperspective|Prototyperspective]] ([[User talk:Prototyperspective|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Prototyperspective|contribs]]) 12:37, 11 March 2026 (UTC)
:What policy is being debated? Is it the text on this page, which is pointed to by the general banner, or the text at:   [[Wikiversity:Artificial intelligence|Wikiversity:Artificial intelligence,]]   which is pointed to by the specific banner? Let's begin with coherence on the text being debated. Thanks!  [[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]] ([[User talk:Lbeaumont|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Lbeaumont|contribs]]) 11:49, 17 March 2026 (UTC)
::@[[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]] This is a call for approval of the new Wikiversity policy. You expressed your opinion [[Wikiversity talk:Artificial intelligence#Evolving a Wikiversity policy on AI|on the talk page of the proposal]], I replied to you and await your response.When creating policies, it is necessary to propose specific solutions. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 14:12, 17 March 2026 (UTC)
:::Toward a Justified and Parsimonious AI Policy 
:::As we collaborate to develop a consensus policy on the use of Large Language Models, it is wise to begin by considering the needs of the various stakeholders to the policy.
:::The stakeholders are:
:::1)     The users, 
:::2)     The source providers, and
:::3)     The editors
:::There may also be others with a minor stake in this policy, including the population at large.
:::The many needs of the users are currently addressed by long-standing [[Wikiversity:Policies|Wikiversity policies]], so we can focus on what, if any, additional needs arise as LLMs are deployed. 
:::As always, users need assurance that propositional statements are accurate. This is covered by the existing policy on [[Wikiversity:Verifiability|verifiably]]. In addition, it is expected by both the users and those that provide materials used as sources for the text are [[Wikiversity:Cite sources|accurately attributed]]. This is also covered by [[Wikiversity:Cite sources|existing policies]].
:::To respect the time and effort of editors, a parsimonious policy will unburden editors from costly requirements that exceed benefits to the users.
:::Finally, it is important to recognize that because attention is our most valuable seizing attention unnecessarily is a form of theft. 
:::The following proposed policy statement results from these considerations:
:::Recommended Policy statement:
:::·       Editors [[Wikiversity:Verifiability|verify the accuracy]] of propositional statements, regardless of the source.
:::·       Editors [[Wikiversity:Cite sources|attribute the source]] of propositional statements. In the case of LLM, cite the LLM model and the prompt used.
:::·       Use of various available templates to mark the use of LLM are optional. Templates that are flexible in noting the type and extend of LLM usage are preferred. Templates that avoid unduly distracting or alarming the user are preferred. [[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]] ([[User talk:Lbeaumont|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Lbeaumont|contribs]]) 19:56, 19 March 2026 (UTC)
::::Do we discuss here or there? I have replied you there as your proposal is about that policy so it is tradition to discuss it at the affected talk page. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 21:59, 19 March 2026 (UTC)
: {{support}} Thanks for the proposed policy development and discussion; also note proposed policy talk page discussion: [[Wikiversity talk:Artificial intelligence]] -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 12:05, 24 March 2026 (UTC)
::I think the Wikiversity AI policy shall be official. – [[User:RestoreAccess111|RestoreAccess111]] &lt;sup style=&quot;font-family:Arimo, Arial;&quot;&gt;[[User talk:RestoreAccess111|Talk!]]&lt;/sup&gt; &lt;sup style=&quot;font-family:Times New Roman, Tinos;&quot;&gt;[[Special:Contributions/RestoreAccess111|Watch!]]&lt;/sup&gt; 06:11, 13 April 2026 (UTC)
{{archive bottom}}

== New titles for user right nominations ==
&lt;div class=&quot;cd-moveMark&quot;&gt;''Moved from [[Wikiversity talk:Candidates for Custodianship#New titles for user right nominations]].  [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 23:20, 17 April 2026 (UTC)''&lt;/div&gt;

I would like to propose the following retitles should a user be nominated for any of the following user rights:
* Curator: Candidates for Curatorship
* Bureaucrat: Candidates for Bureaucratship
The reason is that many curator (and probably bureaucrat) requests have run solely under {{tq|Candidates for Custodianship}}, but that title might sound misleading (especially in regards to the permission a user is requesting). CheckUser and Oversight (suppressor) are not included above since no user was nominated for these sensitive permissions, probably. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 01:30, 19 March 2026 (UTC)

:And it's not that when someone at the beginning misplaced the request, no one thought to move it and the others copied it. Even today, it would be possible to simply take it all and move it. Otherwise, for me, the more fundamental problem is that there is [[Wikiversity:Curators|no approved policy for curators]] than where the requests are based. Curators then operate in a certain vacuum and if one of them &quot;breaks out of the chain&quot;, the average user doesn't have many transparent tools to deal with it, because there is no policy. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 07:02, 19 March 2026 (UTC)
::I am not talking about the curator page (policy proposal). [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 19:08, 21 March 2026 (UTC)
: @[[User:Juandev|Juandev]] I'll see if I can do an overhaul of [[Wikiversity:Candidates for Custodianship]], just like I recently did with the Requests for adminship page on English Wikiquote. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 22:17, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
:Yes, great idea - ideally there will be separate &quot;Candidates for ...&quot; pages for each user right group. The most important for now is to separate curator and custodian pages as CN suggests. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 11:39, 1 May 2026 (UTC)
:So maybe I previously misunderstood. Are you proposing separated pages for nominations (i.e. [[Wikiversity:Candidates for Curatorship]], [[Wikiversity:Candidates for Bureaucratship]], [[Wikiversity:Candidates for Custodianship]])? [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 12:30, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
:: Yes. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 13:33, 5 May 2026 (UTC)

== Technical Request:  Courtesy link.. ==

[[Template_talk:Information#Background_must_have_color_defined_as_well]] [[User:ShakespeareFan00|ShakespeareFan00]] ([[User talk:ShakespeareFan00|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ShakespeareFan00|contribs]]) 11:43, 20 March 2026 (UTC)
: I can't edit the template directly as it need an sysop/interface admin to do it. [[User:ShakespeareFan00|ShakespeareFan00]] ([[User talk:ShakespeareFan00|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ShakespeareFan00|contribs]]) 11:43, 20 March 2026 (UTC)
:: Also if the Template field of - https://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Special:LintErrors/night-mode-unaware-background-color is examined, there is poential for an admin to clear a substantial proportion of these by implmenting a simmilar fix to the indciated templates (and underlying stylesheets). It would be nice to clear things like Project box and others, as many other templates (and thus pages depend on them.) :)
[[User:ShakespeareFan00|ShakespeareFan00]] ([[User talk:ShakespeareFan00|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ShakespeareFan00|contribs]]) 11:43, 20 March 2026 (UTC)

:I think it would be best to grant you interface admin rights for a short period of time to make these changes. However, I still have doubts about the suitability of this solution, which may cause other problems and no one has explained to me why dark mode has to be implemented this way @[[User:ShakespeareFan00|ShakespeareFan00]]. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 20:43, 20 March 2026 (UTC)

: I would have reservations about holding such rights, which is why I was trying to do what I could without needing them. However if it is the only way to get the required changes made, I would suggest asking on Wikipedia to find technical editors, willing to undertake the changes needed. [[User:ShakespeareFan00|ShakespeareFan00]] ([[User talk:ShakespeareFan00|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ShakespeareFan00|contribs]]) 09:32, 21 March 2026 (UTC)

== WikiEducator has closed ==

Some of you may know of a similar project to Wikiversity, called [https://wikieducator.org/Main_Page WikiEducator], championed by [https://oerfoundation.org/about/staff/wayne-mackintosh/ Wayne Mackintosh][https://www.linkedin.com/posts/waynemackintosh_important-notice-about-the-oer-foundation-activity-7405113051688931329-Nhm9/][https://openeducation.nz/killed-not-starved/].

It seems [https://openeducation.nz/terminating-oer-foundation their foundation has closed] and they are no longer operating.

They had done quite a bit of outreach (e.g., in the Pacific and Africa) to get educators using wiki.

The WikiEducator content is still available in MediaWiki - and potentially could be imported to Wikiversity ([https://wikieducator.org/WikiEducator:Copyrights CC-BY-SA] is the default license).

The closing of WikiEducator arguably makes the nurturing of Wikiversity even more important.

-- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 02:09, 1 April 2026 (UTC)

:I was never active there. If anyone has an account or is otherwise in contact, we may want to copy relevant information here or even at [[:outreach:]]. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 04:46, 1 April 2026 (UTC)

:: I reached out to [[User:Mackiwg~enwikiversity|Wayne]] in January, and he responded briefly but positively (while travelling).  I wrote to the low-traffic wikieducator mailing list today and got a nice [https://groups.google.com/g/wikieducator/c/r_yIyUw6ZIA reply] from [[user:SteveFoerster|Steve Foerster]] who's interested in helping. If we can figure out a migration path it would be great to adopt at least the main namespace pages here.  
:: A few questions that come to mind: 
:: - would people want to create matching user accounts
:: - are there any namespaces (user/talk?) that should not be moved over
:: We could look at how this was done for the [[m:Wikivoyage/Migration]] wikivoyage migration. &lt;span style=&quot;padding:0 2px 0 2px;background-color:white;color:#bbb;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash;[[User:Sj|SJ]][[User Talk:Sj|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#ff9900;&quot;&gt;+&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 04:27, 1 May 2026 (UTC)
:::That's fantastic, SJ, that you've reached out and that Wayne, Steve, and Jim are receptive—and that you can help! -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 11:52, 1 May 2026 (UTC)

== Wikinews is ending ==

Apparently mainly due to low editorial activity, low public interest, but also failure to achieve the goals from the proposal for the creation of the project, the Wikinews project is ending after years of discussions ([[Meta:Proposal for Closing Wikinews|some reading]]).

And I would be interested to see how Wikiversity is doing in the monitored metrics. We probably have more editors than Wikinews had, but what about consumers and achieving the goals? [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 19:14, 1 April 2026 (UTC)

:Wikiversity's biggest issue in recent times was the hosting of low-quality, trash content. Thankfully we've done a great job in removing pseudoscience and other embarrassingly trash content (Wikidebates, for example), but the biggest concern moving forward is proper maintenance IMO. I've caught several pseudoscience pages being created within the last few months that could easily have flown under the radar (ex, [[The Kelemen Dilemma: Causal Collapse and Axiomatic Instability]]), so I'd urge our custodians/curators to be on the lookout for this type of content. Usually an AI-overview can point this type of content out relatively well.
:In terms of visibility, I believe Wikiversity is a high-traffic project. I remember my [[Mathematical Properties]] showing up on the first page of Google when searching up &quot;math properties&quot; for the longest time (and is still showing up in the first page 'till this day!). Besides, Wikinews hosted a lot of short-term content (the nature of news articles), while Wikiversity hosts content that can still be useful a decade later (ex, [[A Reader's Guide to Annotation]]). 
:I think we are on a better path than we were a few months ago, and I do want to thank everyone here who has been helping out with maintaining our website! —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 20:48, 1 April 2026 (UTC)
:For what it's worth, the group that did that study has since disbanded, so no one is monitoring the other sister projects in the same way. Additionally, Wikinews had some catastrophic server issues due to the maintenance of [[:m:Extension:DynamicPageList]] which don't apply here. Your questions are still worth addressing, but I just wanted to cut off any concern at the pass about Wikiversity being in the same precarious situation. Wikiversity is definitely the biggest &quot;lagging behind&quot; or &quot;failure&quot; project now that Wikinews is being shuttered, but I don't see any near- or medium-term pathway to closing Wikiversity. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 00:46, 2 April 2026 (UTC)

:[[w:en:Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2026-03-31/News and notes|Entirety of Wikinews to be shut down]] (Wikipedia Signpost) -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 02:03, 11 April 2026 (UTC)

== Action Required: Update templates/modules for electoral maps (Migrating from P1846 to P14226) ==

Hello everyone,

This is a notice regarding an ongoing data migration on Wikidata that may affect your election-related templates and Lua modules (such as &lt;code&gt;Module:Itemgroup/list&lt;/code&gt;).

'''The Change:'''&lt;br /&gt;
Currently, many templates pull electoral maps from Wikidata using the property [[:d:Property:P1846|P1846]], combined with the qualifier [[:d:Property:P180|P180]]: [[:d:Q19571328|Q19571328]]. 

We are migrating this data (across roughly 4,000 items) to a newly created, dedicated property: '''[[:d:Property:P14226|P14226]]'''.

'''What You Need To Do:'''&lt;br /&gt;
To ensure your templates and infoboxes do not break or lose their maps, please update your local code to fetch data from [[:d:Property:P14226|P14226]] instead of the old [[:d:Property:P1846|P1846]] + [[:d:Property:P180|P180]] structure. A [[m:Wikidata/Property Migration: P1846 to P14226/List|list of pages]] was generated using Wikimedia Global Search.

'''Deadline:'''&lt;br /&gt;
We are temporarily retaining the old data on [[:d:Property:P1846|P1846]] to allow for a smooth transition. However, to complete the data cleanup on Wikidata, the old [[:d:Property:P1846|P1846]] statements will be removed after '''May 1, 2026'''. Please update your modules and templates before this date to prevent any disruption to your wiki's election articles.

Let us know if you have any questions or need assistance with the query logic. Thank you for your help! [[User:ZI Jony|ZI Jony]] using [[User:MediaWiki message delivery|MediaWiki message delivery]] ([[User talk:MediaWiki message delivery|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/MediaWiki message delivery|contribs]]) 17:11, 3 April 2026 (UTC)
&lt;!-- Message sent by User:ZI Jony@metawiki using the list at https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Distribution_list/Non-Technical_Village_Pumps_distribution_list&amp;oldid=29941252 --&gt;
:I didnt find such properties, so we are probably fine. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 21:00, 12 April 2026 (UTC)
:: +1 (agreed). [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 22:19, 12 April 2026 (UTC)

== Enable the abuse filter block action? ==

In light of [[Special:AbuseLog/80178]] (coupon spam), I would like to propose enabling the block action for the abuse filter. Only custodians will be able to enable and disable that action on an abuse filter, and it is useful to block ongoing vandalism. Thoughts? [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 19:12, 13 April 2026 (UTC)

:Seems like a good idea, almost all of the users which create such pages are spambots so this shouldn’t be a problem. [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 23:41, 13 April 2026 (UTC)
:Can you explain some more (I am new to abuse filters)? It looks like the attempted edit was prevented? Which abuse filter?
:Note on your suggestion, have also reactivated Antispam Filter 12 - see [[WV:RCA]]. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 10:45, 15 April 2026 (UTC)
:: I am proposing that we activate the abuse filter block action, which if a user triggers an abuse filter, it would actually block the user in question - the same mechanism that a custodian would use to block users. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 13:11, 15 April 2026 (UTC)
:::OK, thankyou, that makes sense. And, reviewing the abuse filter 12 log, it would be helpful because it would prevent the need for manual blocking. But I don't see a setting for autoblocking? -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 23:14, 15 April 2026 (UTC)
:::: I think it probably adds an autoblock. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 00:43, 16 April 2026 (UTC)
: [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] and [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]], given that a little bit more than a week has passed and there is minimal consensus to activate the abuse filter block action, I filed [[phab:T424053]]. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 15:05, 21 April 2026 (UTC)
::Thank-you for doing this. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 08:03, 24 April 2026 (UTC)

== Advice needed: A Neurodiversity-inspired Idea/observation ==

If I want the greatest participation of others to &quot;provide constructive criticism to my idea&quot; or to &quot;shoot down my idea&quot; or &quot;idea&quot;.

What I've called it so far is &quot;The Neurodiversity-inspired Idea&quot;. At other times I used more sensationalist wording but here on Wikiversity I don't dare do that. I actually woke up with thinking about putting this into my userspace draft: &quot;Personal Observations Made By Meeting Autistic and Non-Autistic Adults&quot;.

My ultimate goal is to stop blathering about my &quot;idea&quot; to friend and family without feeling my &quot;methodology&quot; is going into any progressive direction whatsoever. My latest encounter was somewhat constructive though. A friend of a friend who worked with people presenting ideas in attempting to getting grants. I don't want a grant. I just want to figure out how I can express my &quot;idea&quot; in a way so that I can more clearly figure out what flaws it got.

At the same time I tend to overthink. If anyone thinks etherpad might be a good place and considering Wikimedia already got an etherpad at https://etherpad.wikimedia.org/ if anyone feels like they know me better in the future feel free to suggest a &quot;session&quot; on etherpad.

'''If I don't receive a reply to this in 1 week's time I will begin to explore this &quot;idea&quot; into my userspace''' unless you replied and refrained me from doing so, of course. Then maybe after &quot;developing it there&quot; I might reference it to you another future time here in the Colloquium, with my &quot;idea&quot; still in my userspace draft. This &quot;idea&quot; is sort of a burden, I'm happy I've made the choice to get rid of it and hopefully move on with my life, unless there is something to this &quot;idea&quot;. 

My failure is probably evident: I feel I haven't told you anything. Same happened to when I talked to friends and family. In danger of overthinking it further I'll publish this right now. I need to &quot;keep it together&quot; [[User:ThinkingScience|ThinkingScience]] ([[User talk:ThinkingScience|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ThinkingScience|contribs]]) 10:36, 16 April 2026 (UTC)

:Good on you putting it out there ... and hitting publish :). I'd say go for it (no need to wait), give birth to your idea and share about it here and elsewhere. Let it take shape and see where it might go. In many ways, this is exactly what an open collaborative learning community should be doing. Others might not know well how to respond, so perhaps consider creating some questions to accompany the idea. Sincerely, James -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 11:21, 16 April 2026 (UTC)
::Thank you for encouraging me in developing the idea.
::I have created a &quot;questions&quot; section in the draft which is visible in the table of contents now. My brain was &quot;frozen&quot; today metaphorically speaking in that I felt I had like a &quot;writer's block&quot; so the draft has more &quot;AI/LLM&quot; content than before. I used the LLM for generating questions. The answers are so far human-only.
::I've also created a subsection where I could add the prompts that made the LLM generate the questions. That could help people make better prompts perhaps. I've described what it is about inside of it and there are some chaotically written notes.
::[[Draft:The_Neurodiversity-inspired_Idea#Questions_that_might_encourage_the_development_of_this_idea_and_its_methodology]]
::My draft is missing stuff. Any questions that you contribute to my draft will probably help me and if I don't understand the questions I'll probably notify you and also at the same time &quot;feed them&quot; to an LLM and ask in my input like &quot;explain in simple words what this question means, what is it searching for?&quot; etc. while I wait for an answer. If you have any more feedback please give it to me here or on the Draft page, its talk page or my user talk page. Thank you for helping me! [[User:ThinkingScience|ThinkingScience]] ([[User talk:ThinkingScience|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ThinkingScience|contribs]]) 21:20, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
::Today I woke up with not only thinking about supplying questions along with the &quot;idea&quot; but also answers. ie. Is it possible to &quot;test&quot; this idea? Is it possible to create one or multiple hypotheses based on this &quot;idea&quot;?(etc.) I've thought about this before in this &quot;idea&quot; but since I'm beginning to add to Wikiversity what was previously 'locked in my mind' it's also easier for me to see what I've done so far. Thank you for this comment! [[User:ThinkingScience|ThinkingScience]] ([[User talk:ThinkingScience|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ThinkingScience|contribs]]) 09:11, 23 April 2026 (UTC)
:May I think that you should not add deadlines ; being read, and rising interest for collaboration, or even simply for exchange of thoughts, such an effective meeting event loads a huge bunch of unprobability, which time can help to… somehow diminish. Maybe, I would advice you having a central place for developping your ideas, your needs, your advances, maybe a page in your own user zone, and from time to time, depending your feeling, it could be every trimester or so, or more frequently, you could write a short account of progress (or even of no progress), or a call for participation, in such a place as this present one ; I think that will increase much exposure of your projet. Maybe also, if you can find a project name, not necessarily very meaningfull by itseilf (at least it will gain signification with time, as your project develops), that will serve as a kind-of hook, and make your announcement titles more visible. Best regards (and my excuses for my poor command of English, which seems to be unplease an anti-abuse filter, &quot;Questionable Language (profanity)&quot;, which I don't understand…). My few cents. --  [[User:Eric.LEWIN|Eric.LEWIN]] ([[User talk:Eric.LEWIN|discussion]] • [[Special:Contributions/Eric.LEWIN|contributions]]) 10:06, 17 April 2026 (UTC)
::Sorry about the false positive on the profanity filter - I've fixed it. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 10:26, 17 April 2026 (UTC)
:::&quot;May I think that you should not add deadlines ; being read, and rising interest for collaboration, or even simply for exchange of thoughts, such an effective meeting event loads a huge bunch of unprobability, which time can help to… somehow diminish.&quot;
::Thank you Eric for this comment. Trust in time is how I interpret it. I should not feel like I need to be in a hurry. I'll try to give this time. Thank you!
:::&quot;Maybe, I would advice you having a central place for developping your ideas, your needs, your advances, maybe a page in your own user zone, and from time to time, depending your feeling, it could be every trimester or so, or more frequently, you could write a short account of progress (or even of no progress), or a call for participation, in such a place as this present one ; I think that will increase much exposure of your projet.&quot;
::A central place for developing or making &quot;project notes&quot; regarding the Neurodiversity idea on my userspace, I might need that, like a diary or &quot;project notes&quot; of the Neurodiversity idea similar to my course notes regarding my experience with Coursera.
::Any actions I take are going to be related to my Userspace from now on but I'll also update the draft when necessary. Now in the beginning I might be working daily to once every 3 days on both the draft and the daily notes I plan to make.
:::&quot;Maybe also, if you can find a project name, not necessarily very meaningfull by itseilf (at least it will gain signification with time, as your project develops), that will serve as a kind-of hook, and make your announcement titles more visible.&quot;
::Thank you for the advice. I was brainstorming yesterday about it. I concluded that since I've not yet developed a methodology that adheres to &quot;Do no harm&quot; and this is my first time working my &quot;idea&quot; into a way that is compatible with how projects develop on English Wikiversity this is new to me. My methodology isn't developed and therefore trying to get attention to my project through a name can wait. Yesterday I figured out a silly title that has nothing to do with the project: &quot;Planetary Awareness Potato Cabbage Rolls&quot; or something like that. Google output read that no such thing exists so I wanted it mainly to be unique. I don't want to raise attention that I'm unsure whether I'll actually be capable of developing a methodology for but project notes is my best bet so far in tracking my progress. Every day I think about this &quot;idea&quot; but I need to improve the important parts.
:::&quot;Best regards (and my excuses for my poor command of English, which seems to be unplease an anti-abuse filter, &quot;Questionable Language (profanity)&quot;, which I don't understand…). My few cents.&quot;
::You added great points and I felt that I was helped by you! I encourage you to post again and I can understand that interacting with any kind of automated filter can be discouraging and can be for me too! Thank you for giving me feedback! [[User:ThinkingScience|ThinkingScience]] ([[User talk:ThinkingScience|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ThinkingScience|contribs]]) 16:01, 18 April 2026 (UTC)

== Add some user rights to the curator user group? ==

By default, only custodians have the ability to mark new pages as patrolled (&lt;code&gt;patrol&lt;/code&gt;) and have their own page creations automatically marked as patrolled (&lt;code&gt;autopatrol&lt;/code&gt;). I am proposing both of the following:
* Curators can mark new pages as patrolled, helping on reducing the backlog of new, unpatrolled pages.
* New pages made by curators will be automatically marked as patrolled by the MediaWiki software.
Before we implement this, I would suggest implementing a proposed guideline for marking new pages as patrolled for curators and custodians.

Thoughts? [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 16:32, 17 April 2026 (UTC)

:Agree, &lt;s&gt;also can we also allow curators to undelete pages since they already have the rights to delete them?&lt;/s&gt; [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 02:54, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
::I think the requirement that undelete NOT be included came from above (meta / stewards / central office). Having access to the undelete page gives access to information that is restricted by their policies to admins (custodians and bureaucrats). -- [[User:Dave Braunschweig|Dave Braunschweig]] ([[User talk:Dave Braunschweig|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dave Braunschweig|contribs]]) 20:12, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
::: [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]], unless if requests for curator and custodian should be RfA-like processes (that is, including voting and comments), then I have to agree with Dave above. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 22:03, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
::::Oh, I didn’t realise that. Withdrawing my comment.. [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 00:08, 19 April 2026 (UTC)
:{{support}} Seems reasonable and would reduce overhead. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 14:35, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
:'''Agree''', implement it also to [[Wikiversity:Curators]] proposal please. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 17:11, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
: I went ahead and filed [[phab:T424445]]. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 15:39, 26 April 2026 (UTC)

== [[Wikiversity:Curators|Curators and curators policy]] ==
{{archive top|There is strong consensus, so [[Wikiversity:Curators]] is now a policy. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 11:15, 9 May 2026 (UTC)}}
How does it come, that Wikiversity has curators, but Curators policy is still being proposed? How do the curators exists and act if the policy about them havent been approved yet? [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 18:33, 16 October 2025 (UTC)

:It looks as if it is not just curators. The policy on Bureaucratship is still being proposed as well. See [[Wikiversity:Bureaucratship]]. —[[User:RailwayEnthusiast2025|&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Verdana; color:#008000; text-shadow:gray 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em;&quot;&gt;RailwayEnthusiast2025&lt;/span&gt;]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:RailwayEnthusiast2025|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#59a53f&quot;&gt;''talk with me!''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 18:33, 27 October 2025 (UTC)

:I think its just the nature of a small WMF sister project in that there are lots of drafts, gaps, and potential improvements. In this case, these community would need to vote on those proposed Wikiversity staff policies if we think they're ready. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 02:08, 3 December 2025 (UTC)
:What? I thought you were getting it approved, Juandev... :) [[User:I&amp;#39;m Mr. Chris|I&amp;#39;m Mr. Chris]] ([[User talk:I&amp;#39;m Mr. Chris|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/I&amp;#39;m Mr. Chris|contribs]]) 14:20, 12 February 2026 (UTC)
::Yeah I think this one is important too and we need to aprove it too @[[User:I'm Mr. Chris|I'm Mr. Chris]]. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 15:56, 12 February 2026 (UTC)
:::I thinks its ready to made into a policy, it seems to be complete and informative about what the rights does and how to get it. [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 03:08, 15 February 2026 (UTC)
::::Agree -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 11:00, 27 March 2026 (UTC)

Let's make this the official discussion about adopting the [[Wikiversity:Curators|curators policy]] policy. Your comments are invited and welcome. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 08:40, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
: There were two similar Colloquium threads in separate places about the proposed curators policy. So I've moved them to be adjacent. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 12:42, 1 May 2026 (UTC)
{{archive bottom}}

== Wikiversity:Curators to become a policy ==
{{archive top|There is strong consensus, so [[Wikiversity:Curators]] is now a policy. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 11:16, 9 May 2026 (UTC)}}
I've looked at the discussions about the Curators policy, I've looked at the practices, and it seems to me that there is no dispute about the wording of the policy, and what's more, the community has been using this proposal as if it were an offical policy for several years. Therefore, I propose that [[Wikiversity:Curators]] become a policy. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 18:35, 18 April 2026 (UTC)

:{{support}} —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 18:54, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
:{{support}} —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 20:21, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
: {{support|Yes, please}}. Especially after when I and PieWriter proposed above, I agree. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 14:27, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
:: @[[User:Juandev|Juandev]]; as of now, curators now have the user rights &lt;code&gt;autopatrol&lt;/code&gt; and &lt;code&gt;patrol&lt;/code&gt;. Perhaps we should also include that in [[Wikiversity:Custodianship]]? [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 12:07, 30 April 2026 (UTC)
:::You meant [[Wikiversity:Curators]] @[[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]]? [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 12:15, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
:::: I agree that we must develop what rules curators should follow when marking new pages as patrolled; the same can be added for custodians since they can also mark new pages as patrolled. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 13:37, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
:::::I see, well I think you can just add this to the policy. It is not major change and it probably reflects actual practice or actual technical possibilities for those flags. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 09:20, 7 May 2026 (UTC)
:{{support}} -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 12:42, 1 May 2026 (UTC)
:{{Support}} per nom. [[User:PhilDaBirdMan|PhilDaBirdMan]] ([[User talk:PhilDaBirdMan|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PhilDaBirdMan|contribs]]) 13:32, 1 May 2026 (UTC)
{{Archive bottom}}

== Inactive curators ==

Hello, even though [[Wikiversity:Curators]] is not a policy yet, there are curators listed here that have been inactive for two years or more:
* {{user|Cody naccarato}} (last edit on 13 Dec 2022, last logged action on 10 Dec 2022)
* {{user|Praxidicae}} (last edit on 10 Sep 2022, last logged action on 12 Sep 2022)
[[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 21:14, 19 April 2026 (UTC)

:Yup, I would remove the rights. To get the rights back if theyll come back should not be a big deal. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 20:08, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
:: When they don't reply by May 19, feel free (or any custodian) to do so. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 00:28, 25 April 2026 (UTC)

== Is anyone interested in Neurodiversity? ==

Is anyone interested in Neurodiversity? Is there anyone here who is interested for Neurodiversity to be &quot;something more&quot; than it already is? Does anyone here consider Neurodiversity one of the &quot;harder topics&quot; to work on or discuss? Does anyone here have an opinion about the [[Neurodiversity Movement]]? So these questions don't appear like &quot;out of a vacuum&quot; I can tell you a bit about my background:

Many years ago I got a psychiatric diagnosis &quot;Asperger's&quot;. After I stepped out of the office and my Äsperger's was 'concluded', I stepped out into the street and thought my first negative thought(but the positive thought followed after). The thought was about concentration camps in the second world war and that the world seemed to be going into the direction of &quot;labeling others&quot;. I was unsure whether this was &quot;real science&quot; and sort of &quot;challenged myself&quot; to make up my own mind after meeting people that had been given this diagnosis. The more adults with this diagnosis I met the more I started seeing &quot;patterns&quot;.

Was it a coincidence that the first person with Asperger's I met reminded me about my father later after I had plenty of times of experience with interacting with him? None of the people I interacted with online through IRC text chat...I felt I got any clue about how &quot;their brains work&quot;. Only when I met one person from the Asperger's chat community in person we both realized that whatever we experienced was akin to the &quot;chaos theory&quot;. He told me about &quot;chaos theory&quot; while I didn't know even what that term meant but I guess I 'read between the lines'. My question that I linger on still today is &quot;did he understand about me what I think I understood about him?&quot;? That our brains had the same configuration? Most autistic adults who meet other autistic adults usually get disappointed. They think the diagnosis will help them meet somebody like themselves and then they realize the great diversity in the autistic spectrum created by Psychiatry.

I later stopped interacting with autistic communities that much, I felt that it did not benefit me. Also Neurodiversity's &quot;neurotypes&quot; interested me for a while until I realized I had &quot;misunderstood everything&quot; about them and how they are used in the Neurodiversity Movement or &quot;Neurodiversity community&quot; if that even can precisely be defined? I doubt it but if you want to contribute to the [[Neurodiversity Movement]]. My previous attempts failed as I got more and more confused. I think a community project needs a community. With a lack of that I don't think it is worth my time. If any of you would like to work on that project let me know on my talk page.

So I was kinda lost and was talking to my friend and psychologist and I realized if I never talk about my idea to anyone in a &quot;comprehensive way&quot; or show that it matters to me nothing is going to ever happen. So I started talking about my &quot;idea&quot; more. Nobody could understand the &quot;idea&quot; because I had not developed my skills regarding where to start...although the process had already started &quot;automatically&quot; and that's why I often think of &quot;well my brain sort of activated me&quot;. I don't feel like I did have a plan and this idea happened. It happened &quot;by itself&quot;. My brain reacted to what I was seeing in a video or stream.

I value interaction highly in this idea. I think it would be helpful to make a community of people who are not paranoid about stuff that can express itself like &quot;don't analyze me!&quot;, &quot;don't compare me to anyone!&quot;. 

On the contrary, more often than not those adults who were diagnosed were actually openly comparing themselves with each other and I think that is healthy in a &quot;science&quot; way if done the &quot;right way&quot; which probably means &quot;Do no harm&quot;.

I found video material is important but I'm very unsure if uploading own video material to Wikimedia Commons would constitute a &quot;reasonable&quot; use of the resources there. Maybe somebody here needs to ask more questions to me that I should answer before that happens. I also know the '''be bold''' so I could just do what I think might be ok. Though I work better in a group as long as I know what &quot;group configurations&quot; help me. This is in a non-profit way. Since the state supported me this might be a way I am trying to &quot;give back&quot; to the state and &quot;the world&quot;. May seem overly ambitious and crazy but this thing gives me energy. It gives me hope when trying to develop this idea. [[User:ThinkingScience|ThinkingScience]] ([[User talk:ThinkingScience|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ThinkingScience|contribs]]) 10:47, 23 April 2026 (UTC)

:Thanks for sharing. There is plenty of room for neurodiversity community learning. However, the challenge I think is that the intersection of those interested in (a) ND, and (b) English Wikiversity might be very small (e.g., 1!) at this point in time.
:But don't give up hope. For example, Wikipedia has many more ND-interested editors; maybe consider reaching out to see who might be interested:
:[[w:Category:Wikipedians interested in neurodiversity]]
:You could also start an equivalent category here:
:[[:Category:Wikiversitarians interested in neurodiversity]] -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 04:46, 6 May 2026 (UTC)

== Request for comment (global AI policy) ==

&lt;bdi lang=&quot;en&quot; dir=&quot;ltr&quot; class=&quot;mw-content-ltr&quot;&gt;A [[:m:Requests for comment/Artificial intelligence policy|request for comment]] is currently being held to decide on a global AI policy. {{int:Feedback-thanks-title}} [[User:MediaWiki message delivery|MediaWiki message delivery]] ([[User talk:MediaWiki message delivery|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/MediaWiki message delivery|contribs]]) 00:58, 26 April 2026 (UTC)&lt;/bdi&gt;
&lt;!-- Message sent by User:Codename Noreste@metawiki using the list at https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Distribution_list/Global_message_delivery&amp;oldid=30424282 --&gt;

== Coming over From wikinews ==

Any chance someone could help me if you are allowed to write news articles here since wikinews is going read only mode soon, thank you! [[User:BigKrow|BigKrow]] ([[User talk:BigKrow|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/BigKrow|contribs]]) 22:43, 1 May 2026 (UTC)

:The scope of Wikiversity is very broad and is basically about more-or-less any learning material. We have made it a point to not have duplicative content of other WMF projects, but since Wikinews is being shuttered, I personally am fine with writing news articles here. One thing that is not controversial at all is a learning resource &lt;em&gt;about&lt;/em&gt; how to write news: that could be hugely useful here and could involve the process of writing news stories to learn and to share back and forth with an editor or fact-checker. In fact, I'd support an entire namespace dedicated to keeping the notion of Wikinews alive here. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 23:38, 1 May 2026 (UTC)
::Thank you so much! How do I start? Cheers! @[[User:Koavf|Koavf]] [[User:BigKrow|BigKrow]] ([[User talk:BigKrow|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/BigKrow|contribs]]) 01:07, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
:::I think it's premature to start just making news articles en masse, but if you want to start discussing the topic of citizen journalism, you can do that now. [[:Category:Journalism]] already has some material, so you can start by seeing what we already have, how you can refine that, etc. You can definitely have learning resources with collaborators who want to learn about journalism ASAP. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 01:24, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
::::thanks. [[User:BigKrow|BigKrow]] ([[User talk:BigKrow|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/BigKrow|contribs]]) 01:38, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
::::If I could try and start one News Article could you please tell me how to go about it? Like what style of writing like Wikinews or something else? Thank you Justin! @[[User:Koavf|Koavf]] [[User:BigKrow|BigKrow]] ([[User talk:BigKrow|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/BigKrow|contribs]]) 01:48, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
:::::Honestly, there are very few policies and guidelines here. I think the best way to write a news story would be in a manner that is obvious and instructive. So, for instance, it's common to use the &quot;pyramid style&quot; when you're writing news, so if you were to write a story that makes it very clear that you are using that approach, that would be helpful. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 02:08, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
::::::cool thanks. [[User:BigKrow|BigKrow]] ([[User talk:BigKrow|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/BigKrow|contribs]]) 02:13, 2 May 2026 (UTC)

== Language learning  ==

toki! I am trying to add or see what the toki pona language learning stuff on here is but I don't see anything that is language learning for anything. [[User:Jan Imon|Jan Imon]] ([[User talk:Jan Imon|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Jan Imon|contribs]]) 23:13, 2 May 2026 (UTC) —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 17:29, 3 May 2026 (UTC)

:We have language materials ([[:Category:Languages]], [[World Languages]], [[Portal:Foreign Language Learning]], [[Portal:Multilingual Studies]]). They are not as developed as I think we would all like and there's not any coverage of Toki Pona, but in principle, we could and would like that. You can also see [[:b:Subject:Languages]] at our sister project Wikibooks. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 17:33, 3 May 2026 (UTC)

== Timeline format? ==

I’ve been working on the World War II articles, including the [[World War II/Timeline|timeline]], and is there a specific timeline format that should be used? Right now it’s just a table, and there’s no separation between different periods/phases of the war.

I don’t want to use [[mw:Extension:EasyTimeline]] because this will be displaying dates and not time periods. [[User:PhilDaBirdMan|PhilDaBirdMan]] ([[User talk:PhilDaBirdMan|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PhilDaBirdMan|contribs]]) 01:35, 4 May 2026 (UTC)

:I dont think we have a policy or guideline, how to format a timeline. But you may try to browes wikiversity by Google if someone was dealing with this in the past somewhow @[[User:PhilDaBirdMan|PhilDaBirdMan]]. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 12:23, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
::+1 - there's no specific guideline on how to format a timeline, it's really up to you. In my opinion I think the timeline is good. I'd personally bold the dates just to make it easier to separate it from the event description, but that's my personal 2 cents. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 14:18, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
:::I’ll probably remove links to the dates/years, they’re just Wikipedia pages that shouldn’t be over linked to. [[User:PhilDaBirdMan|PhilDaBirdMan]] ([[User talk:PhilDaBirdMan|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PhilDaBirdMan|contribs]]) 00:39, 6 May 2026 (UTC)

== Interface administrator for Codename Noreste ==

Hello, everyone. I am requesting interface administrator access on this wiki.

The main reasoning is that I would benefit from having the user right &lt;code&gt;editinterface&lt;/code&gt;, which would allow me to make dark mode changes to pages in the MediaWiki namespace, add &lt;code&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;&lt;div class=&quot;mw-parser-output&quot;&gt;&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/code&gt; to some interface pages using templates, handle interface-protected edit requests, and similar stuff. Additionally, I have some knowledge of CSS, and I would like to assist with modifying CSS pages whenever necessary, such as moving MediaWiki common.css code to TemplateStyles CSS pages.

I am requesting the maximum time that is allowed per the [[Wikiversity:Interface administrators|policy]], and I have 2FA enabled on my account. Thank you. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 00:55, 6 May 2026 (UTC)

*{{support}} Globally trusted user. ―[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:black&quot;&gt;v&lt;/span&gt;f&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 01:07, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
*{{support}} Trusted and knowledgeable. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 04:35, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
*{{support}} WV would benefit from this. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 08:32, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
*{{support}} --[[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 09:13, 7 May 2026 (UTC)

:{{Comment}} Could @[[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] delete [[MediaWiki:Gadget-WikiSign.js]], which was requested to be deleted @[[User:Koavf|Justin]], @[[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]], @[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]]? I dont think we need it. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 07:40, 9 May 2026 (UTC)
::Yes - clearly no longer used -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 10:18, 9 May 2026 (UTC)
::: I can't delete it because I don't have the required permissions to do so.
::: On a side note, if this project has a need for permanent interface administrators, I would suggest that we have a minimum of two IAs, similar to how there must be two CUs and/or suppressors (or none). Maybe Koavf can be a good candidate if I am elected for permanent interface adminship, and I believe that permission shouldn't be removed from someone's own account. Instead, a bureaucrat should do it. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 13:20, 9 May 2026 (UTC)
::::I am willing and happy to do it, unfortunately, we do not have an appetite for indef IAs and just had a discussion that resulted in a [https://en.wikiversity.org/w/index.php?title=Wikiversity:Interface_administrators&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2807543 consensus that we can have IAs that have the user rights for 14 to 120 days]. So once you have the rights, please make sure to gopher it. ―[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:black&quot;&gt;v&lt;/span&gt;f&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 17:54, 9 May 2026 (UTC)
:::::@[[User:Koavf|Koavf]] give it time. Look at me, I was in favor of shorter time, now I am looking back to times, when custodians could do it without the need of extra flag. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 18:31, 9 May 2026 (UTC)
::::Complicated. Where are the times, admins could do everything! [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 18:27, 9 May 2026 (UTC)

== [[Wikiversity:Bureaucratship]] to become a policy ==

Following the recent approval of [[Wikiversity:Curators]] as a policy, I think [[Wikiversity:Bureaucratship]] may also be ready for policy status.

Please share your views about whether bureaucratship is ready to become a policy, or whether further revisions are needed.

-- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 13:58, 9 May 2026 (UTC)
: I added a logo about that user group, but other than that, it looks good to me. {{support}}. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 14:38, 9 May 2026 (UTC)</text>
      <sha1>nbt1gabnqcuiaw9l7etf72ze82ekswt</sha1>
    </revision>
    <revision>
      <id>2808088</id>
      <parentid>2808087</parentid>
      <timestamp>2026-05-09T18:33:09Z</timestamp>
      <contributor>
        <username>Koavf</username>
        <id>147</id>
      </contributor>
      <comment>/* Interface administrator for Codename Noreste */ Reply</comment>
      <origin>2808088</origin>
      <model>wikitext</model>
      <format>text/x-wiki</format>
      <text bytes="80395" sha1="odehu1ujtsn9lmvfojl9wtebockm2l0" xml:space="preserve">{{Wikiversity:Colloquium/Header}}
&lt;!-- MESSAGES GO BELOW --&gt;
== Requested update to [[Wikiversity:Interface administrators]] ==

Currently, [[Wikiversity:Interface administrators]] is a policy that includes a caveat that interface admins are not required long-term and that user right can only be added for a period of up to two weeks. I am proposing that we remove this qualification and allow for indefinite interface admin status. I think this is useful because there are reasons for tweaking the site CSS or JavaScript (e.g. to comply with dark mode), add gadgets (e.g. importing Cat-a-Lot, which I would like to do), or otherwise modifying the site that could plausibly come up on an irregular basis and requiring the overhead of a bureaucrat to add the user rights is inefficient. In particular, I am also going to request this right if the community accepts indefinite interface admins. Thoughts? —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 23:23, 17 August 2025 (UTC)

:And who will then monitor them to make sure they don't damage the project in any way, or abuse the rights acquired in this way? For large projects, this might not be a problem, but for smaller projects like the English Wikiversity, I'm not sure if there are enough users who would say, something is happening here that shouldn't be happening. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 10:28, 20 August 2025 (UTC)
::Anyone would be who. This argument applies to any person with any advanced rights here. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 10:46, 20 August 2025 (UTC)
:I think it is reasonable to allow for longer periods of access than 2 weeks to interface admin and support adjusting the policy to allow for this flexibility. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 04:57, 2 December 2025 (UTC)
::+1 —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 16:38, 25 January 2026 (UTC)
:@[[User:Koavf|Koavf]] I agree that the two-week requirement could be revised, but wouldn’t people just request access for a specific purpose anyway? Instead of granting indefinite access, they should request the specific time frame they need the rights for—until the planned fixes are completed—and then request an extension if more time is required. We could remove the two-week criterion while still keeping the access explicitly temporary. [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 02:48, 25 January 2026 (UTC)
::I just don't see why this wiki needs to be different than all of the others. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 07:18, 25 January 2026 (UTC)
:::There isn’t really much of a need for a permanent one at this point in time [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 09:53, 25 January 2026 (UTC)
:I quite agree with this proposal, so long as they perform the suggested changes as mentioned here. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 04:06, 26 January 2026 (UTC)
:: Just to clarify, I support '''indefinite interface admin status'''. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 18:34, 13 April 2026 (UTC)
:I think there is decent consensus for lengthening this, but not necessarily for indefinite permissions, so does anyone object to me revising it to the standard being 120 days instead of two weeks? I'll check back on this thread in three weeks and if there's no objection, I'll make the change. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 20:47, 13 April 2026 (UTC)
::Sure [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 23:27, 13 April 2026 (UTC)
::Thanks for proposing this, Justin. I agree with the proposal to lengthen the interface admin period from 2 weeks but not indefinitely. Can I check the source(s) for the standard being 120 days (I'm guessing policies on other projects or maybe global policy?)? In any case, I think it is reasonable for us to adopt a similar period. However, note on the current policy discussion page notes from @[[User:Dave Braunschweig|Dave Braunschweig]] arguing for shorter periods to lower risk, that's why it is 2 weeks. But if there are projects that need longer access, that should also be accommodated. Maybe we could adjust the policy to specify that ''interface admin rights can be given for 14 to 120 days depending on how long is required and what is supported by the community''. Sincerely, James -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 08:29, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
:::There was there was no source for 120: it was just more than 14 and less than infinity. The &quot;14 to 120&quot; also seems reasonable. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 14:33, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
::: On some small/medium-sized wikis, such as English Wikibooks and English Wikiquote for example, indefinite interface administrator access for administrators is allowed, but they tend not to make changes to the CSS and JS page changes unless it's truly necessary. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 14:34, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
:::It's a good idea to make the length of this right on request or allow to be prolonged. However, IA should test large changes somewhere else, for example on the en.wv mirror, and only after testing it on the mirror, adapt it to the live version. That means I can't imagine a time-consuming operation right now. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 20:04, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
::::Sorry, what mirror is this? Are you talking about beta.wv? —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 20:32, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
:::::Not beta.wv. Basically somewhere else then on a live wiki. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 20:59, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
:::::: Wouldn't testing on a user's own common.css page work anyway? [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 21:36, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
:Change made here: https://en.wikiversity.org/w/index.php?title=Wikiversity%3AInterface_administrators&amp;diff=2807543&amp;oldid=2806289 —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 13:35, 4 May 2026 (UTC)

== [[Template:AI-generated]] ==

After going through the plethora of ChatGPT-generated pages made by [[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]] (with many more pages to go), I'd like community input on this proposal to [[Wikiversity:Artificial intelligence]] that I think would be benefical for the community:
*Resources generated by AI '''must''' be indicated as so through the project box, [[Template:AI-generated]], on either the page or the main resource (if the page is a part of a project).
I do not believe including a small note/reference that a page is AI-generated is sufficient, and I take my thinking from [[WV:Original research|Wikiversity's OR policy]] for OR work: ''Within Wikiversity, all original research should be clearly identified as such''. I believe resources created from AI should also be clearly indicated as such, especially since we are working on whether or not AI-generated resources should be allowed on the website (discussion is [[Wikiversity talk:Artificial intelligence|here]], for reference). This makes it easier for organizational purposes, and in the event ''if'' we ban AI-generated work. 

I've left a message on Lee's talk page over a week ago and did not get a response or acknowledgement, so I'd like for the community's input for this inclusion to the policy. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 15:53, 26 January 2026 (UTC)

:I believe that existing Wikiversity policies are sufficient. Authors are responsible for the accuracy and usefulness of the content that is published. This policy covers AI-generated content that is: 1) carefully reviewed by the author publishing it, and 2) the source is noted.   [[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]] ([[User talk:Lbeaumont|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Lbeaumont|contribs]]) 19:38, 27 January 2026 (UTC)
::A small reference for pages that are substantially filled with Chat-GPT entries, like [[Real Good Religion]], [[Attributing Blame]], [[Fostering Curiosity]], are not sufficient IMO and a project box would be the best indicator that a page is AI-generated (especially when there is a mixture of human created content AND AI-generated content, as present in a lot of your pages). This is useful, especially considering the notable issues with AI (including hallucinations and fabrication of details), so viewers and support staff are aware. These small notes left on the pages are not as easily viewable as a project box or banner would be. I really don't see the issue with a clear-label guideline. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 22:34, 27 January 2026 (UTC)
::{{ping|Lbeaumont}} I noticed your reversions [https://en.wikiversity.org/w/index.php?title=Exploring_Existential_Concerns&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2788278 here] &amp; [https://en.wikiversity.org/w/index.php?title=Subjective_Awareness&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2788257 here]. I'd prefer to have a clean conversation regarding this proposition. Please voice your concerns here. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 15:53, 28 January 2026 (UTC)
:::Regarding Subjective Awareness, I distinctly recall the effort I went to to write that the old-fashioned way. It is true that ChatGPT assisted me in augmenting the list of words suggested as candidate subjective states. This is a small section of the course, is clearly marked, and makes no factual claim. Marking the entire course as AI-generated is misleading. I would have made these comments when I reverted your edit; however, the revert button does not provide that opportunity.
:::Regarding the Exploring Existential Concerns course, please note this was adapted from my EmotionalCompetency.com website, which predates the availability of LLMs. The course does include two links, clearly labeled as ChatGPT-generated. Again, marking the entire course as AI-generated is misleading.
:::On a broader issue, I don't consider your opinions to have established a carefully debated and adopted Wikiversity policy. You went ahead and modified many of my courses over my clearly stated objections. Please let this issue play out more completely before editing my courses further. Thanks.   [[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]] ([[User talk:Lbeaumont|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Lbeaumont|contribs]]) 15:11, 29 January 2026 (UTC)
::::Understood, and I respect your position. I apologize if my edits were seen as overarching. We could change the project box to &quot;a portion of this resource was generated by AI&quot;, or something along those lines. Feel free to revert my changes where you see fit, and I encourage more users to provide their input. EDIT: I've made changes to the template to indicate that a portion of the content has been generated from an LLM. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 15:50, 29 January 2026 (UTC)
:::::Thanks for this reply. The new banner is unduly large and alarming. There is no need for alarm here. The use of AI is not harmful per se. Like any technology, it can be used to help or to harm. I take care to craft prompts carefully, point the LMM to reliable source materials, and to carefully read and verify the generated text before I publish it. This is all in keeping with long-established Wikiversity policy. We don't want to use a  [[w:One-drop_rule|one-drop rule]] here or cause a [[w:Satanic_panic|satanic panic]]. We can learn our lessons from history here. I don't see any pedagogical reason for establishing a classification of &quot;AI generated&quot;, but if there is a consensus that it is needed, perhaps it can be handled as just another category that learning resources can be assigned to. I would rather focus on identifying any errors in factual claims than on casting pejorative bias toward AI-generated content. An essay on the best practices for using LMM on Wikiveristy would be welcome.   [[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]] ([[User talk:Lbeaumont|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Lbeaumont|contribs]]) 15:58, 30 January 2026 (UTC)
::::::The new banner mimics the banner that is available on the English Wikibooks (see [[b:Template:AI-generated]] &amp; [[b:Template:Uses AI]]), so my revisions aren't unique in this aspect. At this point, I'd welcome other peoples' inputs. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 19:40, 30 January 2026 (UTC)

== How do I start making pages? ==
Is there a notability guideline for Wikiversity? What is the sourcing policy for information? What is the Manual of Style? What kind of educational content qualifies for Wikiversity? All the introduction pages are a bit unclear. 
[[User:VidanaliK|VidanaliK]] ([[User talk:VidanaliK|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/VidanaliK|contribs]]) 02:25, 28 January 2026 (UTC)

:{{ping|VidanaliK}} Welcome to Wikiversity! I've left you a welcome message on your talk page. That should help you out. Make sure to especially look at [[Wikiversity:Introduction]]. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 03:11, 28 January 2026 (UTC)
::It says that I can't post more pages because I have apparently exceeded the new page limit. How long does it take before that new page limit expires? [[User:VidanaliK|VidanaliK]] ([[User talk:VidanaliK|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/VidanaliK|contribs]]) 16:57, 28 January 2026 (UTC)
:::This is a restriction for new users so that Wikiversity is not hit with massive spam. As for when this limit will expire, it should be a few days or after a certain number of edits. It's easy to overcome, though I do not have the exact numbers atm. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 15:08, 29 January 2026 (UTC)
::::OK, I think I got past the limit. [[User:VidanaliK|VidanaliK]] ([[User talk:VidanaliK|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/VidanaliK|contribs]]) 17:21, 29 January 2026 (UTC)
==Why does it feel like Wikiversity is no longer really active anymore?==
I've been looking at recent changes, and both today and yesterday there haven't been many changes that I haven't made; it feels like walking through a ghost town, is this just me or is Wikiversity not really active anymore? [[User:VidanaliK|VidanaliK]] ([[User talk:VidanaliK|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/VidanaliK|contribs]]) 03:54, 30 January 2026 (UTC)

:There is fewer people editing these days compared to the past. Many newcomers tend to edit in Wikipedia instead. [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 06:39, 30 January 2026 (UTC)
:It’s a little slow, but I’m happy to know that Wikiversity is a place that I think should provide value even if the activity of editors fluctuates. If it’s any consolation your edits may be encouraging for some anonymous newcomer to start edits on their own! I think it’s hard to build community when there is such a wide variety of interests and a smaller starting userbase. Also sometimes the getting into a particular topic that already exists can be intimidating because some relics (large portals, school, categories, etc.) have intricate, unique and generally messy levels of organization. [[User:IanVG|IanVG]] ([[User talk:IanVG|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/IanVG|contribs]]) 22:16, 9 March 2026 (UTC)
:I'd say it comes down to working hard for Wikiversity, basically if somebody or a group of people will start presenting good ideas and they turn out to be provably stable.
:I even asked Google's &quot;AI Mode&quot;, what is Wikiversity famous for? Unfortunately it could not answer that.
:Simply, we have not made Wikiversity famous by presenting really provable stable ideas yet. My hope is that this time might come. Perhaps even this year 2026!
:Hope dies last. [[User:ThinkingScience|ThinkingScience]] ([[User talk:ThinkingScience|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ThinkingScience|contribs]]) 10:12, 27 April 2026 (UTC)

== Inactivity policy for Curators ==

I was wondering if there is a specific inactivity polity for curators (semi-admins) as I am pretty sure the global policy does not apply to them as they are not ''fully'' sysops. [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 03:20, 15 February 2026 (UTC)

:Unfortunately, I don't see an inactivity policy, but if we were to create such a new policy for curators, it should be the same for custodians (administrators). [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 18:45, 15 February 2026 (UTC)
::@[[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] There is currently none, that I could find, for custodians either. [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 00:47, 17 February 2026 (UTC)
:::I think we should propose a local inactivity policy for custodians (and by extension, curators), which should be at least one year without any edits ''and'' logged actions. However, I don't know which page should it be when the inactivity removal procedure starts. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 00:53, 17 February 2026 (UTC)
::::@[[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] In theory, there should be a section added at [[WV:Candidates for custodianship]] [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 00:55, 17 February 2026 (UTC)
::::: To be consistent with the [[meta:Admin activity review|global period of 2 years inactivity]] for en.wv  [[Wikiversity:Custodianship#Notes|Custodians]] and [[Wikiversity:Bureaucratship#How are bureaucrats removed?|Bureaucrats]] we could add something like this to [[Wikiversity:Curators]]:
::::::The maximum time period of inactivity &lt;u&gt;without community review&lt;/u&gt; for curators is two years (consistent with  the [[:meta:Category:Global policies|global policy]] described at [[meta:Admin activity review|Admin activity review]] which applies for [[Wikiversity:Custodianship#Notes|Custodians]] and [[Wikiversity:Bureaucratship|Bureaucrats]]). After that time a custodian will remove the rights.
::::: -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 10:51, 27 March 2026 (UTC)
:::::Yup, I agree with Jtneill, there is a policy proposal for Wikiversity:Curators, where it should be logically deployed. The question is if we are ready to aprove the policy. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 17:43, 17 April 2026 (UTC)
:::::: I agree, but we should notify the colloquium about inactive curators, just like a steward would do for inactive custodians and bureaucrats per [[:m:Admin activity review|AAR]]. What is the minimum timeframe an inactive curator should receive so they can respond they would keep their rights? [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 17:49, 17 April 2026 (UTC)
:I incorporated these suggestions into the proposed curators policy. Please review/comment/improve. Summary: 2 years, notify curator's user page, then remove rights after 1 month: [[Wikiversity:Curators#Inactivity]]. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 08:59, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
:: @[[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] I created [[Template:Inactive curator]] for this. Feel free to make any changes or improvements. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 14:29, 24 April 2026 (UTC)

== [[Wikiversity:Artificial intelligence]] to become an official policy ==
{{Archive top|After running for a week, there is consensus, alongside comments, for [[Wikiversity:Artificial intelligence]] to be implemented as an official policy. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 23:27, 17 April 2026 (UTC)}}
With the introduction of AI-material, and some material just plain disruptive, its imperative that Wikiversity catches up with its sister projects and implements an official AI policy that we can work with. The recent issue of [[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]]'s 50+ articles that contain significantly large AI-generated material has made me came to the Colloquium. This user has also been removing the [[Template:AI-generated]] template from their pages, calling it &quot;misleading&quot;, &quot;alarmist&quot;, and &quot;pejorative&quot; - which is all just simply nonsensical rationales. Not to even mention this user's contributions to the English Wikipedia have been [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Inner_Development_Goals contested] and [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Multipolar_trap removed] a couple of times (for being low-quality and clearly LLM-generated), highlighting the need for an actual policy to be implemented here on Wikiversity. I would like to ping {{ping|Juandev}} and {{ping|Jtneill}} for their thoughts as well, since I'd like this to be implemented as soon as possible. 

Wikiversity has a significant issue with implementing anti-disruptive measures, hence why we have received numerous complaints as a community about our quality. I originally was reverting the removal of the templates, but realized that this is still a proposed policy, which it shouldn't be anymore. It should be a recognized Wikiversity policy. 14:54, 10 March 2026 (UTC) —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 14:54, 10 March 2026 (UTC)

:@[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] '''I agree''' that the draft, should become official policy. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 17:00, 10 March 2026 (UTC)
:I provided a detailed response at: [[Wikiversity talk:Artificial intelligence#Evolving a Wikiversity policy on AI]]
:I will appreaciate it if you consder that carefully. [[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]] ([[User talk:Lbeaumont|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Lbeaumont|contribs]]) 22:49, 10 March 2026 (UTC)
:Agree it should become official Wikiversity policy on the condition &lt;u&gt;that point point 5 is about [significant/substantial] LLM-generated text specifically&lt;/u&gt;. Not a good idea to overuse it, it should be added when there is substantial AI-generated text on the page, not for other cases. [[User:Prototyperspective|Prototyperspective]] ([[User talk:Prototyperspective|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Prototyperspective|contribs]]) 12:37, 11 March 2026 (UTC)
:What policy is being debated? Is it the text on this page, which is pointed to by the general banner, or the text at:   [[Wikiversity:Artificial intelligence|Wikiversity:Artificial intelligence,]]   which is pointed to by the specific banner? Let's begin with coherence on the text being debated. Thanks!  [[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]] ([[User talk:Lbeaumont|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Lbeaumont|contribs]]) 11:49, 17 March 2026 (UTC)
::@[[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]] This is a call for approval of the new Wikiversity policy. You expressed your opinion [[Wikiversity talk:Artificial intelligence#Evolving a Wikiversity policy on AI|on the talk page of the proposal]], I replied to you and await your response.When creating policies, it is necessary to propose specific solutions. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 14:12, 17 March 2026 (UTC)
:::Toward a Justified and Parsimonious AI Policy 
:::As we collaborate to develop a consensus policy on the use of Large Language Models, it is wise to begin by considering the needs of the various stakeholders to the policy.
:::The stakeholders are:
:::1)     The users, 
:::2)     The source providers, and
:::3)     The editors
:::There may also be others with a minor stake in this policy, including the population at large.
:::The many needs of the users are currently addressed by long-standing [[Wikiversity:Policies|Wikiversity policies]], so we can focus on what, if any, additional needs arise as LLMs are deployed. 
:::As always, users need assurance that propositional statements are accurate. This is covered by the existing policy on [[Wikiversity:Verifiability|verifiably]]. In addition, it is expected by both the users and those that provide materials used as sources for the text are [[Wikiversity:Cite sources|accurately attributed]]. This is also covered by [[Wikiversity:Cite sources|existing policies]].
:::To respect the time and effort of editors, a parsimonious policy will unburden editors from costly requirements that exceed benefits to the users.
:::Finally, it is important to recognize that because attention is our most valuable seizing attention unnecessarily is a form of theft. 
:::The following proposed policy statement results from these considerations:
:::Recommended Policy statement:
:::·       Editors [[Wikiversity:Verifiability|verify the accuracy]] of propositional statements, regardless of the source.
:::·       Editors [[Wikiversity:Cite sources|attribute the source]] of propositional statements. In the case of LLM, cite the LLM model and the prompt used.
:::·       Use of various available templates to mark the use of LLM are optional. Templates that are flexible in noting the type and extend of LLM usage are preferred. Templates that avoid unduly distracting or alarming the user are preferred. [[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]] ([[User talk:Lbeaumont|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Lbeaumont|contribs]]) 19:56, 19 March 2026 (UTC)
::::Do we discuss here or there? I have replied you there as your proposal is about that policy so it is tradition to discuss it at the affected talk page. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 21:59, 19 March 2026 (UTC)
: {{support}} Thanks for the proposed policy development and discussion; also note proposed policy talk page discussion: [[Wikiversity talk:Artificial intelligence]] -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 12:05, 24 March 2026 (UTC)
::I think the Wikiversity AI policy shall be official. – [[User:RestoreAccess111|RestoreAccess111]] &lt;sup style=&quot;font-family:Arimo, Arial;&quot;&gt;[[User talk:RestoreAccess111|Talk!]]&lt;/sup&gt; &lt;sup style=&quot;font-family:Times New Roman, Tinos;&quot;&gt;[[Special:Contributions/RestoreAccess111|Watch!]]&lt;/sup&gt; 06:11, 13 April 2026 (UTC)
{{archive bottom}}

== New titles for user right nominations ==
&lt;div class=&quot;cd-moveMark&quot;&gt;''Moved from [[Wikiversity talk:Candidates for Custodianship#New titles for user right nominations]].  [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 23:20, 17 April 2026 (UTC)''&lt;/div&gt;

I would like to propose the following retitles should a user be nominated for any of the following user rights:
* Curator: Candidates for Curatorship
* Bureaucrat: Candidates for Bureaucratship
The reason is that many curator (and probably bureaucrat) requests have run solely under {{tq|Candidates for Custodianship}}, but that title might sound misleading (especially in regards to the permission a user is requesting). CheckUser and Oversight (suppressor) are not included above since no user was nominated for these sensitive permissions, probably. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 01:30, 19 March 2026 (UTC)

:And it's not that when someone at the beginning misplaced the request, no one thought to move it and the others copied it. Even today, it would be possible to simply take it all and move it. Otherwise, for me, the more fundamental problem is that there is [[Wikiversity:Curators|no approved policy for curators]] than where the requests are based. Curators then operate in a certain vacuum and if one of them &quot;breaks out of the chain&quot;, the average user doesn't have many transparent tools to deal with it, because there is no policy. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 07:02, 19 March 2026 (UTC)
::I am not talking about the curator page (policy proposal). [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 19:08, 21 March 2026 (UTC)
: @[[User:Juandev|Juandev]] I'll see if I can do an overhaul of [[Wikiversity:Candidates for Custodianship]], just like I recently did with the Requests for adminship page on English Wikiquote. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 22:17, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
:Yes, great idea - ideally there will be separate &quot;Candidates for ...&quot; pages for each user right group. The most important for now is to separate curator and custodian pages as CN suggests. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 11:39, 1 May 2026 (UTC)
:So maybe I previously misunderstood. Are you proposing separated pages for nominations (i.e. [[Wikiversity:Candidates for Curatorship]], [[Wikiversity:Candidates for Bureaucratship]], [[Wikiversity:Candidates for Custodianship]])? [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 12:30, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
:: Yes. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 13:33, 5 May 2026 (UTC)

== Technical Request:  Courtesy link.. ==

[[Template_talk:Information#Background_must_have_color_defined_as_well]] [[User:ShakespeareFan00|ShakespeareFan00]] ([[User talk:ShakespeareFan00|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ShakespeareFan00|contribs]]) 11:43, 20 March 2026 (UTC)
: I can't edit the template directly as it need an sysop/interface admin to do it. [[User:ShakespeareFan00|ShakespeareFan00]] ([[User talk:ShakespeareFan00|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ShakespeareFan00|contribs]]) 11:43, 20 March 2026 (UTC)
:: Also if the Template field of - https://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Special:LintErrors/night-mode-unaware-background-color is examined, there is poential for an admin to clear a substantial proportion of these by implmenting a simmilar fix to the indciated templates (and underlying stylesheets). It would be nice to clear things like Project box and others, as many other templates (and thus pages depend on them.) :)
[[User:ShakespeareFan00|ShakespeareFan00]] ([[User talk:ShakespeareFan00|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ShakespeareFan00|contribs]]) 11:43, 20 March 2026 (UTC)

:I think it would be best to grant you interface admin rights for a short period of time to make these changes. However, I still have doubts about the suitability of this solution, which may cause other problems and no one has explained to me why dark mode has to be implemented this way @[[User:ShakespeareFan00|ShakespeareFan00]]. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 20:43, 20 March 2026 (UTC)

: I would have reservations about holding such rights, which is why I was trying to do what I could without needing them. However if it is the only way to get the required changes made, I would suggest asking on Wikipedia to find technical editors, willing to undertake the changes needed. [[User:ShakespeareFan00|ShakespeareFan00]] ([[User talk:ShakespeareFan00|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ShakespeareFan00|contribs]]) 09:32, 21 March 2026 (UTC)

== WikiEducator has closed ==

Some of you may know of a similar project to Wikiversity, called [https://wikieducator.org/Main_Page WikiEducator], championed by [https://oerfoundation.org/about/staff/wayne-mackintosh/ Wayne Mackintosh][https://www.linkedin.com/posts/waynemackintosh_important-notice-about-the-oer-foundation-activity-7405113051688931329-Nhm9/][https://openeducation.nz/killed-not-starved/].

It seems [https://openeducation.nz/terminating-oer-foundation their foundation has closed] and they are no longer operating.

They had done quite a bit of outreach (e.g., in the Pacific and Africa) to get educators using wiki.

The WikiEducator content is still available in MediaWiki - and potentially could be imported to Wikiversity ([https://wikieducator.org/WikiEducator:Copyrights CC-BY-SA] is the default license).

The closing of WikiEducator arguably makes the nurturing of Wikiversity even more important.

-- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 02:09, 1 April 2026 (UTC)

:I was never active there. If anyone has an account or is otherwise in contact, we may want to copy relevant information here or even at [[:outreach:]]. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 04:46, 1 April 2026 (UTC)

:: I reached out to [[User:Mackiwg~enwikiversity|Wayne]] in January, and he responded briefly but positively (while travelling).  I wrote to the low-traffic wikieducator mailing list today and got a nice [https://groups.google.com/g/wikieducator/c/r_yIyUw6ZIA reply] from [[user:SteveFoerster|Steve Foerster]] who's interested in helping. If we can figure out a migration path it would be great to adopt at least the main namespace pages here.  
:: A few questions that come to mind: 
:: - would people want to create matching user accounts
:: - are there any namespaces (user/talk?) that should not be moved over
:: We could look at how this was done for the [[m:Wikivoyage/Migration]] wikivoyage migration. &lt;span style=&quot;padding:0 2px 0 2px;background-color:white;color:#bbb;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash;[[User:Sj|SJ]][[User Talk:Sj|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#ff9900;&quot;&gt;+&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 04:27, 1 May 2026 (UTC)
:::That's fantastic, SJ, that you've reached out and that Wayne, Steve, and Jim are receptive—and that you can help! -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 11:52, 1 May 2026 (UTC)

== Wikinews is ending ==

Apparently mainly due to low editorial activity, low public interest, but also failure to achieve the goals from the proposal for the creation of the project, the Wikinews project is ending after years of discussions ([[Meta:Proposal for Closing Wikinews|some reading]]).

And I would be interested to see how Wikiversity is doing in the monitored metrics. We probably have more editors than Wikinews had, but what about consumers and achieving the goals? [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 19:14, 1 April 2026 (UTC)

:Wikiversity's biggest issue in recent times was the hosting of low-quality, trash content. Thankfully we've done a great job in removing pseudoscience and other embarrassingly trash content (Wikidebates, for example), but the biggest concern moving forward is proper maintenance IMO. I've caught several pseudoscience pages being created within the last few months that could easily have flown under the radar (ex, [[The Kelemen Dilemma: Causal Collapse and Axiomatic Instability]]), so I'd urge our custodians/curators to be on the lookout for this type of content. Usually an AI-overview can point this type of content out relatively well.
:In terms of visibility, I believe Wikiversity is a high-traffic project. I remember my [[Mathematical Properties]] showing up on the first page of Google when searching up &quot;math properties&quot; for the longest time (and is still showing up in the first page 'till this day!). Besides, Wikinews hosted a lot of short-term content (the nature of news articles), while Wikiversity hosts content that can still be useful a decade later (ex, [[A Reader's Guide to Annotation]]). 
:I think we are on a better path than we were a few months ago, and I do want to thank everyone here who has been helping out with maintaining our website! —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 20:48, 1 April 2026 (UTC)
:For what it's worth, the group that did that study has since disbanded, so no one is monitoring the other sister projects in the same way. Additionally, Wikinews had some catastrophic server issues due to the maintenance of [[:m:Extension:DynamicPageList]] which don't apply here. Your questions are still worth addressing, but I just wanted to cut off any concern at the pass about Wikiversity being in the same precarious situation. Wikiversity is definitely the biggest &quot;lagging behind&quot; or &quot;failure&quot; project now that Wikinews is being shuttered, but I don't see any near- or medium-term pathway to closing Wikiversity. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 00:46, 2 April 2026 (UTC)

:[[w:en:Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2026-03-31/News and notes|Entirety of Wikinews to be shut down]] (Wikipedia Signpost) -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 02:03, 11 April 2026 (UTC)

== Action Required: Update templates/modules for electoral maps (Migrating from P1846 to P14226) ==

Hello everyone,

This is a notice regarding an ongoing data migration on Wikidata that may affect your election-related templates and Lua modules (such as &lt;code&gt;Module:Itemgroup/list&lt;/code&gt;).

'''The Change:'''&lt;br /&gt;
Currently, many templates pull electoral maps from Wikidata using the property [[:d:Property:P1846|P1846]], combined with the qualifier [[:d:Property:P180|P180]]: [[:d:Q19571328|Q19571328]]. 

We are migrating this data (across roughly 4,000 items) to a newly created, dedicated property: '''[[:d:Property:P14226|P14226]]'''.

'''What You Need To Do:'''&lt;br /&gt;
To ensure your templates and infoboxes do not break or lose their maps, please update your local code to fetch data from [[:d:Property:P14226|P14226]] instead of the old [[:d:Property:P1846|P1846]] + [[:d:Property:P180|P180]] structure. A [[m:Wikidata/Property Migration: P1846 to P14226/List|list of pages]] was generated using Wikimedia Global Search.

'''Deadline:'''&lt;br /&gt;
We are temporarily retaining the old data on [[:d:Property:P1846|P1846]] to allow for a smooth transition. However, to complete the data cleanup on Wikidata, the old [[:d:Property:P1846|P1846]] statements will be removed after '''May 1, 2026'''. Please update your modules and templates before this date to prevent any disruption to your wiki's election articles.

Let us know if you have any questions or need assistance with the query logic. Thank you for your help! [[User:ZI Jony|ZI Jony]] using [[User:MediaWiki message delivery|MediaWiki message delivery]] ([[User talk:MediaWiki message delivery|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/MediaWiki message delivery|contribs]]) 17:11, 3 April 2026 (UTC)
&lt;!-- Message sent by User:ZI Jony@metawiki using the list at https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Distribution_list/Non-Technical_Village_Pumps_distribution_list&amp;oldid=29941252 --&gt;
:I didnt find such properties, so we are probably fine. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 21:00, 12 April 2026 (UTC)
:: +1 (agreed). [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 22:19, 12 April 2026 (UTC)

== Enable the abuse filter block action? ==

In light of [[Special:AbuseLog/80178]] (coupon spam), I would like to propose enabling the block action for the abuse filter. Only custodians will be able to enable and disable that action on an abuse filter, and it is useful to block ongoing vandalism. Thoughts? [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 19:12, 13 April 2026 (UTC)

:Seems like a good idea, almost all of the users which create such pages are spambots so this shouldn’t be a problem. [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 23:41, 13 April 2026 (UTC)
:Can you explain some more (I am new to abuse filters)? It looks like the attempted edit was prevented? Which abuse filter?
:Note on your suggestion, have also reactivated Antispam Filter 12 - see [[WV:RCA]]. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 10:45, 15 April 2026 (UTC)
:: I am proposing that we activate the abuse filter block action, which if a user triggers an abuse filter, it would actually block the user in question - the same mechanism that a custodian would use to block users. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 13:11, 15 April 2026 (UTC)
:::OK, thankyou, that makes sense. And, reviewing the abuse filter 12 log, it would be helpful because it would prevent the need for manual blocking. But I don't see a setting for autoblocking? -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 23:14, 15 April 2026 (UTC)
:::: I think it probably adds an autoblock. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 00:43, 16 April 2026 (UTC)
: [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] and [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]], given that a little bit more than a week has passed and there is minimal consensus to activate the abuse filter block action, I filed [[phab:T424053]]. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 15:05, 21 April 2026 (UTC)
::Thank-you for doing this. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 08:03, 24 April 2026 (UTC)

== Advice needed: A Neurodiversity-inspired Idea/observation ==

If I want the greatest participation of others to &quot;provide constructive criticism to my idea&quot; or to &quot;shoot down my idea&quot; or &quot;idea&quot;.

What I've called it so far is &quot;The Neurodiversity-inspired Idea&quot;. At other times I used more sensationalist wording but here on Wikiversity I don't dare do that. I actually woke up with thinking about putting this into my userspace draft: &quot;Personal Observations Made By Meeting Autistic and Non-Autistic Adults&quot;.

My ultimate goal is to stop blathering about my &quot;idea&quot; to friend and family without feeling my &quot;methodology&quot; is going into any progressive direction whatsoever. My latest encounter was somewhat constructive though. A friend of a friend who worked with people presenting ideas in attempting to getting grants. I don't want a grant. I just want to figure out how I can express my &quot;idea&quot; in a way so that I can more clearly figure out what flaws it got.

At the same time I tend to overthink. If anyone thinks etherpad might be a good place and considering Wikimedia already got an etherpad at https://etherpad.wikimedia.org/ if anyone feels like they know me better in the future feel free to suggest a &quot;session&quot; on etherpad.

'''If I don't receive a reply to this in 1 week's time I will begin to explore this &quot;idea&quot; into my userspace''' unless you replied and refrained me from doing so, of course. Then maybe after &quot;developing it there&quot; I might reference it to you another future time here in the Colloquium, with my &quot;idea&quot; still in my userspace draft. This &quot;idea&quot; is sort of a burden, I'm happy I've made the choice to get rid of it and hopefully move on with my life, unless there is something to this &quot;idea&quot;. 

My failure is probably evident: I feel I haven't told you anything. Same happened to when I talked to friends and family. In danger of overthinking it further I'll publish this right now. I need to &quot;keep it together&quot; [[User:ThinkingScience|ThinkingScience]] ([[User talk:ThinkingScience|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ThinkingScience|contribs]]) 10:36, 16 April 2026 (UTC)

:Good on you putting it out there ... and hitting publish :). I'd say go for it (no need to wait), give birth to your idea and share about it here and elsewhere. Let it take shape and see where it might go. In many ways, this is exactly what an open collaborative learning community should be doing. Others might not know well how to respond, so perhaps consider creating some questions to accompany the idea. Sincerely, James -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 11:21, 16 April 2026 (UTC)
::Thank you for encouraging me in developing the idea.
::I have created a &quot;questions&quot; section in the draft which is visible in the table of contents now. My brain was &quot;frozen&quot; today metaphorically speaking in that I felt I had like a &quot;writer's block&quot; so the draft has more &quot;AI/LLM&quot; content than before. I used the LLM for generating questions. The answers are so far human-only.
::I've also created a subsection where I could add the prompts that made the LLM generate the questions. That could help people make better prompts perhaps. I've described what it is about inside of it and there are some chaotically written notes.
::[[Draft:The_Neurodiversity-inspired_Idea#Questions_that_might_encourage_the_development_of_this_idea_and_its_methodology]]
::My draft is missing stuff. Any questions that you contribute to my draft will probably help me and if I don't understand the questions I'll probably notify you and also at the same time &quot;feed them&quot; to an LLM and ask in my input like &quot;explain in simple words what this question means, what is it searching for?&quot; etc. while I wait for an answer. If you have any more feedback please give it to me here or on the Draft page, its talk page or my user talk page. Thank you for helping me! [[User:ThinkingScience|ThinkingScience]] ([[User talk:ThinkingScience|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ThinkingScience|contribs]]) 21:20, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
::Today I woke up with not only thinking about supplying questions along with the &quot;idea&quot; but also answers. ie. Is it possible to &quot;test&quot; this idea? Is it possible to create one or multiple hypotheses based on this &quot;idea&quot;?(etc.) I've thought about this before in this &quot;idea&quot; but since I'm beginning to add to Wikiversity what was previously 'locked in my mind' it's also easier for me to see what I've done so far. Thank you for this comment! [[User:ThinkingScience|ThinkingScience]] ([[User talk:ThinkingScience|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ThinkingScience|contribs]]) 09:11, 23 April 2026 (UTC)
:May I think that you should not add deadlines ; being read, and rising interest for collaboration, or even simply for exchange of thoughts, such an effective meeting event loads a huge bunch of unprobability, which time can help to… somehow diminish. Maybe, I would advice you having a central place for developping your ideas, your needs, your advances, maybe a page in your own user zone, and from time to time, depending your feeling, it could be every trimester or so, or more frequently, you could write a short account of progress (or even of no progress), or a call for participation, in such a place as this present one ; I think that will increase much exposure of your projet. Maybe also, if you can find a project name, not necessarily very meaningfull by itseilf (at least it will gain signification with time, as your project develops), that will serve as a kind-of hook, and make your announcement titles more visible. Best regards (and my excuses for my poor command of English, which seems to be unplease an anti-abuse filter, &quot;Questionable Language (profanity)&quot;, which I don't understand…). My few cents. --  [[User:Eric.LEWIN|Eric.LEWIN]] ([[User talk:Eric.LEWIN|discussion]] • [[Special:Contributions/Eric.LEWIN|contributions]]) 10:06, 17 April 2026 (UTC)
::Sorry about the false positive on the profanity filter - I've fixed it. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 10:26, 17 April 2026 (UTC)
:::&quot;May I think that you should not add deadlines ; being read, and rising interest for collaboration, or even simply for exchange of thoughts, such an effective meeting event loads a huge bunch of unprobability, which time can help to… somehow diminish.&quot;
::Thank you Eric for this comment. Trust in time is how I interpret it. I should not feel like I need to be in a hurry. I'll try to give this time. Thank you!
:::&quot;Maybe, I would advice you having a central place for developping your ideas, your needs, your advances, maybe a page in your own user zone, and from time to time, depending your feeling, it could be every trimester or so, or more frequently, you could write a short account of progress (or even of no progress), or a call for participation, in such a place as this present one ; I think that will increase much exposure of your projet.&quot;
::A central place for developing or making &quot;project notes&quot; regarding the Neurodiversity idea on my userspace, I might need that, like a diary or &quot;project notes&quot; of the Neurodiversity idea similar to my course notes regarding my experience with Coursera.
::Any actions I take are going to be related to my Userspace from now on but I'll also update the draft when necessary. Now in the beginning I might be working daily to once every 3 days on both the draft and the daily notes I plan to make.
:::&quot;Maybe also, if you can find a project name, not necessarily very meaningfull by itseilf (at least it will gain signification with time, as your project develops), that will serve as a kind-of hook, and make your announcement titles more visible.&quot;
::Thank you for the advice. I was brainstorming yesterday about it. I concluded that since I've not yet developed a methodology that adheres to &quot;Do no harm&quot; and this is my first time working my &quot;idea&quot; into a way that is compatible with how projects develop on English Wikiversity this is new to me. My methodology isn't developed and therefore trying to get attention to my project through a name can wait. Yesterday I figured out a silly title that has nothing to do with the project: &quot;Planetary Awareness Potato Cabbage Rolls&quot; or something like that. Google output read that no such thing exists so I wanted it mainly to be unique. I don't want to raise attention that I'm unsure whether I'll actually be capable of developing a methodology for but project notes is my best bet so far in tracking my progress. Every day I think about this &quot;idea&quot; but I need to improve the important parts.
:::&quot;Best regards (and my excuses for my poor command of English, which seems to be unplease an anti-abuse filter, &quot;Questionable Language (profanity)&quot;, which I don't understand…). My few cents.&quot;
::You added great points and I felt that I was helped by you! I encourage you to post again and I can understand that interacting with any kind of automated filter can be discouraging and can be for me too! Thank you for giving me feedback! [[User:ThinkingScience|ThinkingScience]] ([[User talk:ThinkingScience|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ThinkingScience|contribs]]) 16:01, 18 April 2026 (UTC)

== Add some user rights to the curator user group? ==

By default, only custodians have the ability to mark new pages as patrolled (&lt;code&gt;patrol&lt;/code&gt;) and have their own page creations automatically marked as patrolled (&lt;code&gt;autopatrol&lt;/code&gt;). I am proposing both of the following:
* Curators can mark new pages as patrolled, helping on reducing the backlog of new, unpatrolled pages.
* New pages made by curators will be automatically marked as patrolled by the MediaWiki software.
Before we implement this, I would suggest implementing a proposed guideline for marking new pages as patrolled for curators and custodians.

Thoughts? [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 16:32, 17 April 2026 (UTC)

:Agree, &lt;s&gt;also can we also allow curators to undelete pages since they already have the rights to delete them?&lt;/s&gt; [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 02:54, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
::I think the requirement that undelete NOT be included came from above (meta / stewards / central office). Having access to the undelete page gives access to information that is restricted by their policies to admins (custodians and bureaucrats). -- [[User:Dave Braunschweig|Dave Braunschweig]] ([[User talk:Dave Braunschweig|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dave Braunschweig|contribs]]) 20:12, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
::: [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]], unless if requests for curator and custodian should be RfA-like processes (that is, including voting and comments), then I have to agree with Dave above. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 22:03, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
::::Oh, I didn’t realise that. Withdrawing my comment.. [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 00:08, 19 April 2026 (UTC)
:{{support}} Seems reasonable and would reduce overhead. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 14:35, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
:'''Agree''', implement it also to [[Wikiversity:Curators]] proposal please. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 17:11, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
: I went ahead and filed [[phab:T424445]]. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 15:39, 26 April 2026 (UTC)

== [[Wikiversity:Curators|Curators and curators policy]] ==
{{archive top|There is strong consensus, so [[Wikiversity:Curators]] is now a policy. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 11:15, 9 May 2026 (UTC)}}
How does it come, that Wikiversity has curators, but Curators policy is still being proposed? How do the curators exists and act if the policy about them havent been approved yet? [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 18:33, 16 October 2025 (UTC)

:It looks as if it is not just curators. The policy on Bureaucratship is still being proposed as well. See [[Wikiversity:Bureaucratship]]. —[[User:RailwayEnthusiast2025|&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Verdana; color:#008000; text-shadow:gray 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em;&quot;&gt;RailwayEnthusiast2025&lt;/span&gt;]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:RailwayEnthusiast2025|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#59a53f&quot;&gt;''talk with me!''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 18:33, 27 October 2025 (UTC)

:I think its just the nature of a small WMF sister project in that there are lots of drafts, gaps, and potential improvements. In this case, these community would need to vote on those proposed Wikiversity staff policies if we think they're ready. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 02:08, 3 December 2025 (UTC)
:What? I thought you were getting it approved, Juandev... :) [[User:I&amp;#39;m Mr. Chris|I&amp;#39;m Mr. Chris]] ([[User talk:I&amp;#39;m Mr. Chris|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/I&amp;#39;m Mr. Chris|contribs]]) 14:20, 12 February 2026 (UTC)
::Yeah I think this one is important too and we need to aprove it too @[[User:I'm Mr. Chris|I'm Mr. Chris]]. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 15:56, 12 February 2026 (UTC)
:::I thinks its ready to made into a policy, it seems to be complete and informative about what the rights does and how to get it. [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 03:08, 15 February 2026 (UTC)
::::Agree -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 11:00, 27 March 2026 (UTC)

Let's make this the official discussion about adopting the [[Wikiversity:Curators|curators policy]] policy. Your comments are invited and welcome. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 08:40, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
: There were two similar Colloquium threads in separate places about the proposed curators policy. So I've moved them to be adjacent. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 12:42, 1 May 2026 (UTC)
{{archive bottom}}

== Wikiversity:Curators to become a policy ==
{{archive top|There is strong consensus, so [[Wikiversity:Curators]] is now a policy. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 11:16, 9 May 2026 (UTC)}}
I've looked at the discussions about the Curators policy, I've looked at the practices, and it seems to me that there is no dispute about the wording of the policy, and what's more, the community has been using this proposal as if it were an offical policy for several years. Therefore, I propose that [[Wikiversity:Curators]] become a policy. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 18:35, 18 April 2026 (UTC)

:{{support}} —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 18:54, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
:{{support}} —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 20:21, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
: {{support|Yes, please}}. Especially after when I and PieWriter proposed above, I agree. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 14:27, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
:: @[[User:Juandev|Juandev]]; as of now, curators now have the user rights &lt;code&gt;autopatrol&lt;/code&gt; and &lt;code&gt;patrol&lt;/code&gt;. Perhaps we should also include that in [[Wikiversity:Custodianship]]? [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 12:07, 30 April 2026 (UTC)
:::You meant [[Wikiversity:Curators]] @[[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]]? [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 12:15, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
:::: I agree that we must develop what rules curators should follow when marking new pages as patrolled; the same can be added for custodians since they can also mark new pages as patrolled. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 13:37, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
:::::I see, well I think you can just add this to the policy. It is not major change and it probably reflects actual practice or actual technical possibilities for those flags. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 09:20, 7 May 2026 (UTC)
:{{support}} -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 12:42, 1 May 2026 (UTC)
:{{Support}} per nom. [[User:PhilDaBirdMan|PhilDaBirdMan]] ([[User talk:PhilDaBirdMan|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PhilDaBirdMan|contribs]]) 13:32, 1 May 2026 (UTC)
{{Archive bottom}}

== Inactive curators ==

Hello, even though [[Wikiversity:Curators]] is not a policy yet, there are curators listed here that have been inactive for two years or more:
* {{user|Cody naccarato}} (last edit on 13 Dec 2022, last logged action on 10 Dec 2022)
* {{user|Praxidicae}} (last edit on 10 Sep 2022, last logged action on 12 Sep 2022)
[[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 21:14, 19 April 2026 (UTC)

:Yup, I would remove the rights. To get the rights back if theyll come back should not be a big deal. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 20:08, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
:: When they don't reply by May 19, feel free (or any custodian) to do so. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 00:28, 25 April 2026 (UTC)

== Is anyone interested in Neurodiversity? ==

Is anyone interested in Neurodiversity? Is there anyone here who is interested for Neurodiversity to be &quot;something more&quot; than it already is? Does anyone here consider Neurodiversity one of the &quot;harder topics&quot; to work on or discuss? Does anyone here have an opinion about the [[Neurodiversity Movement]]? So these questions don't appear like &quot;out of a vacuum&quot; I can tell you a bit about my background:

Many years ago I got a psychiatric diagnosis &quot;Asperger's&quot;. After I stepped out of the office and my Äsperger's was 'concluded', I stepped out into the street and thought my first negative thought(but the positive thought followed after). The thought was about concentration camps in the second world war and that the world seemed to be going into the direction of &quot;labeling others&quot;. I was unsure whether this was &quot;real science&quot; and sort of &quot;challenged myself&quot; to make up my own mind after meeting people that had been given this diagnosis. The more adults with this diagnosis I met the more I started seeing &quot;patterns&quot;.

Was it a coincidence that the first person with Asperger's I met reminded me about my father later after I had plenty of times of experience with interacting with him? None of the people I interacted with online through IRC text chat...I felt I got any clue about how &quot;their brains work&quot;. Only when I met one person from the Asperger's chat community in person we both realized that whatever we experienced was akin to the &quot;chaos theory&quot;. He told me about &quot;chaos theory&quot; while I didn't know even what that term meant but I guess I 'read between the lines'. My question that I linger on still today is &quot;did he understand about me what I think I understood about him?&quot;? That our brains had the same configuration? Most autistic adults who meet other autistic adults usually get disappointed. They think the diagnosis will help them meet somebody like themselves and then they realize the great diversity in the autistic spectrum created by Psychiatry.

I later stopped interacting with autistic communities that much, I felt that it did not benefit me. Also Neurodiversity's &quot;neurotypes&quot; interested me for a while until I realized I had &quot;misunderstood everything&quot; about them and how they are used in the Neurodiversity Movement or &quot;Neurodiversity community&quot; if that even can precisely be defined? I doubt it but if you want to contribute to the [[Neurodiversity Movement]]. My previous attempts failed as I got more and more confused. I think a community project needs a community. With a lack of that I don't think it is worth my time. If any of you would like to work on that project let me know on my talk page.

So I was kinda lost and was talking to my friend and psychologist and I realized if I never talk about my idea to anyone in a &quot;comprehensive way&quot; or show that it matters to me nothing is going to ever happen. So I started talking about my &quot;idea&quot; more. Nobody could understand the &quot;idea&quot; because I had not developed my skills regarding where to start...although the process had already started &quot;automatically&quot; and that's why I often think of &quot;well my brain sort of activated me&quot;. I don't feel like I did have a plan and this idea happened. It happened &quot;by itself&quot;. My brain reacted to what I was seeing in a video or stream.

I value interaction highly in this idea. I think it would be helpful to make a community of people who are not paranoid about stuff that can express itself like &quot;don't analyze me!&quot;, &quot;don't compare me to anyone!&quot;. 

On the contrary, more often than not those adults who were diagnosed were actually openly comparing themselves with each other and I think that is healthy in a &quot;science&quot; way if done the &quot;right way&quot; which probably means &quot;Do no harm&quot;.

I found video material is important but I'm very unsure if uploading own video material to Wikimedia Commons would constitute a &quot;reasonable&quot; use of the resources there. Maybe somebody here needs to ask more questions to me that I should answer before that happens. I also know the '''be bold''' so I could just do what I think might be ok. Though I work better in a group as long as I know what &quot;group configurations&quot; help me. This is in a non-profit way. Since the state supported me this might be a way I am trying to &quot;give back&quot; to the state and &quot;the world&quot;. May seem overly ambitious and crazy but this thing gives me energy. It gives me hope when trying to develop this idea. [[User:ThinkingScience|ThinkingScience]] ([[User talk:ThinkingScience|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ThinkingScience|contribs]]) 10:47, 23 April 2026 (UTC)

:Thanks for sharing. There is plenty of room for neurodiversity community learning. However, the challenge I think is that the intersection of those interested in (a) ND, and (b) English Wikiversity might be very small (e.g., 1!) at this point in time.
:But don't give up hope. For example, Wikipedia has many more ND-interested editors; maybe consider reaching out to see who might be interested:
:[[w:Category:Wikipedians interested in neurodiversity]]
:You could also start an equivalent category here:
:[[:Category:Wikiversitarians interested in neurodiversity]] -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 04:46, 6 May 2026 (UTC)

== Request for comment (global AI policy) ==

&lt;bdi lang=&quot;en&quot; dir=&quot;ltr&quot; class=&quot;mw-content-ltr&quot;&gt;A [[:m:Requests for comment/Artificial intelligence policy|request for comment]] is currently being held to decide on a global AI policy. {{int:Feedback-thanks-title}} [[User:MediaWiki message delivery|MediaWiki message delivery]] ([[User talk:MediaWiki message delivery|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/MediaWiki message delivery|contribs]]) 00:58, 26 April 2026 (UTC)&lt;/bdi&gt;
&lt;!-- Message sent by User:Codename Noreste@metawiki using the list at https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Distribution_list/Global_message_delivery&amp;oldid=30424282 --&gt;

== Coming over From wikinews ==

Any chance someone could help me if you are allowed to write news articles here since wikinews is going read only mode soon, thank you! [[User:BigKrow|BigKrow]] ([[User talk:BigKrow|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/BigKrow|contribs]]) 22:43, 1 May 2026 (UTC)

:The scope of Wikiversity is very broad and is basically about more-or-less any learning material. We have made it a point to not have duplicative content of other WMF projects, but since Wikinews is being shuttered, I personally am fine with writing news articles here. One thing that is not controversial at all is a learning resource &lt;em&gt;about&lt;/em&gt; how to write news: that could be hugely useful here and could involve the process of writing news stories to learn and to share back and forth with an editor or fact-checker. In fact, I'd support an entire namespace dedicated to keeping the notion of Wikinews alive here. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 23:38, 1 May 2026 (UTC)
::Thank you so much! How do I start? Cheers! @[[User:Koavf|Koavf]] [[User:BigKrow|BigKrow]] ([[User talk:BigKrow|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/BigKrow|contribs]]) 01:07, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
:::I think it's premature to start just making news articles en masse, but if you want to start discussing the topic of citizen journalism, you can do that now. [[:Category:Journalism]] already has some material, so you can start by seeing what we already have, how you can refine that, etc. You can definitely have learning resources with collaborators who want to learn about journalism ASAP. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 01:24, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
::::thanks. [[User:BigKrow|BigKrow]] ([[User talk:BigKrow|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/BigKrow|contribs]]) 01:38, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
::::If I could try and start one News Article could you please tell me how to go about it? Like what style of writing like Wikinews or something else? Thank you Justin! @[[User:Koavf|Koavf]] [[User:BigKrow|BigKrow]] ([[User talk:BigKrow|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/BigKrow|contribs]]) 01:48, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
:::::Honestly, there are very few policies and guidelines here. I think the best way to write a news story would be in a manner that is obvious and instructive. So, for instance, it's common to use the &quot;pyramid style&quot; when you're writing news, so if you were to write a story that makes it very clear that you are using that approach, that would be helpful. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 02:08, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
::::::cool thanks. [[User:BigKrow|BigKrow]] ([[User talk:BigKrow|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/BigKrow|contribs]]) 02:13, 2 May 2026 (UTC)

== Language learning  ==

toki! I am trying to add or see what the toki pona language learning stuff on here is but I don't see anything that is language learning for anything. [[User:Jan Imon|Jan Imon]] ([[User talk:Jan Imon|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Jan Imon|contribs]]) 23:13, 2 May 2026 (UTC) —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 17:29, 3 May 2026 (UTC)

:We have language materials ([[:Category:Languages]], [[World Languages]], [[Portal:Foreign Language Learning]], [[Portal:Multilingual Studies]]). They are not as developed as I think we would all like and there's not any coverage of Toki Pona, but in principle, we could and would like that. You can also see [[:b:Subject:Languages]] at our sister project Wikibooks. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 17:33, 3 May 2026 (UTC)

== Timeline format? ==

I’ve been working on the World War II articles, including the [[World War II/Timeline|timeline]], and is there a specific timeline format that should be used? Right now it’s just a table, and there’s no separation between different periods/phases of the war.

I don’t want to use [[mw:Extension:EasyTimeline]] because this will be displaying dates and not time periods. [[User:PhilDaBirdMan|PhilDaBirdMan]] ([[User talk:PhilDaBirdMan|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PhilDaBirdMan|contribs]]) 01:35, 4 May 2026 (UTC)

:I dont think we have a policy or guideline, how to format a timeline. But you may try to browes wikiversity by Google if someone was dealing with this in the past somewhow @[[User:PhilDaBirdMan|PhilDaBirdMan]]. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 12:23, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
::+1 - there's no specific guideline on how to format a timeline, it's really up to you. In my opinion I think the timeline is good. I'd personally bold the dates just to make it easier to separate it from the event description, but that's my personal 2 cents. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 14:18, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
:::I’ll probably remove links to the dates/years, they’re just Wikipedia pages that shouldn’t be over linked to. [[User:PhilDaBirdMan|PhilDaBirdMan]] ([[User talk:PhilDaBirdMan|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PhilDaBirdMan|contribs]]) 00:39, 6 May 2026 (UTC)

== Interface administrator for Codename Noreste ==

Hello, everyone. I am requesting interface administrator access on this wiki.

The main reasoning is that I would benefit from having the user right &lt;code&gt;editinterface&lt;/code&gt;, which would allow me to make dark mode changes to pages in the MediaWiki namespace, add &lt;code&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;&lt;div class=&quot;mw-parser-output&quot;&gt;&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/code&gt; to some interface pages using templates, handle interface-protected edit requests, and similar stuff. Additionally, I have some knowledge of CSS, and I would like to assist with modifying CSS pages whenever necessary, such as moving MediaWiki common.css code to TemplateStyles CSS pages.

I am requesting the maximum time that is allowed per the [[Wikiversity:Interface administrators|policy]], and I have 2FA enabled on my account. Thank you. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 00:55, 6 May 2026 (UTC)

*{{support}} Globally trusted user. ―[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:black&quot;&gt;v&lt;/span&gt;f&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 01:07, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
*{{support}} Trusted and knowledgeable. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 04:35, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
*{{support}} WV would benefit from this. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 08:32, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
*{{support}} --[[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 09:13, 7 May 2026 (UTC)

:{{Comment}} Could @[[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] delete [[MediaWiki:Gadget-WikiSign.js]], which was requested to be deleted @[[User:Koavf|Justin]], @[[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]], @[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]]? I dont think we need it. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 07:40, 9 May 2026 (UTC)
::Yes - clearly no longer used -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 10:18, 9 May 2026 (UTC)
::: I can't delete it because I don't have the required permissions to do so.
::: On a side note, if this project has a need for permanent interface administrators, I would suggest that we have a minimum of two IAs, similar to how there must be two CUs and/or suppressors (or none). Maybe Koavf can be a good candidate if I am elected for permanent interface adminship, and I believe that permission shouldn't be removed from someone's own account. Instead, a bureaucrat should do it. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 13:20, 9 May 2026 (UTC)
::::I am willing and happy to do it, unfortunately, we do not have an appetite for indef IAs and just had a discussion that resulted in a [https://en.wikiversity.org/w/index.php?title=Wikiversity:Interface_administrators&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2807543 consensus that we can have IAs that have the user rights for 14 to 120 days]. So once you have the rights, please make sure to gopher it. ―[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:black&quot;&gt;v&lt;/span&gt;f&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 17:54, 9 May 2026 (UTC)
:::::@[[User:Koavf|Koavf]] give it time. Look at me, I was in favor of shorter time, now I am looking back to times, when custodians could do it without the need of extra flag. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 18:31, 9 May 2026 (UTC)
::::::Here's hoping. I think it would reduce administrative overhead, but that's just me and I'm not a bureaucrat here. ―[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:black&quot;&gt;v&lt;/span&gt;f&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 18:33, 9 May 2026 (UTC)
::::Complicated. Where are the times, admins could do everything! [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 18:27, 9 May 2026 (UTC)

== [[Wikiversity:Bureaucratship]] to become a policy ==

Following the recent approval of [[Wikiversity:Curators]] as a policy, I think [[Wikiversity:Bureaucratship]] may also be ready for policy status.

Please share your views about whether bureaucratship is ready to become a policy, or whether further revisions are needed.

-- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 13:58, 9 May 2026 (UTC)
: I added a logo about that user group, but other than that, it looks good to me. {{support}}. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 14:38, 9 May 2026 (UTC)</text>
      <sha1>odehu1ujtsn9lmvfojl9wtebockm2l0</sha1>
    </revision>
    <revision>
      <id>2808089</id>
      <parentid>2808088</parentid>
      <timestamp>2026-05-09T18:35:29Z</timestamp>
      <contributor>
        <username>Juandev</username>
        <id>2651</id>
      </contributor>
      <comment>/* New titles for user right nominations */ Reply</comment>
      <origin>2808089</origin>
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      <text bytes="80631" sha1="3ammmcxqk1eb0hresg8ghvck2t4i58r" xml:space="preserve">{{Wikiversity:Colloquium/Header}}
&lt;!-- MESSAGES GO BELOW --&gt;
== Requested update to [[Wikiversity:Interface administrators]] ==

Currently, [[Wikiversity:Interface administrators]] is a policy that includes a caveat that interface admins are not required long-term and that user right can only be added for a period of up to two weeks. I am proposing that we remove this qualification and allow for indefinite interface admin status. I think this is useful because there are reasons for tweaking the site CSS or JavaScript (e.g. to comply with dark mode), add gadgets (e.g. importing Cat-a-Lot, which I would like to do), or otherwise modifying the site that could plausibly come up on an irregular basis and requiring the overhead of a bureaucrat to add the user rights is inefficient. In particular, I am also going to request this right if the community accepts indefinite interface admins. Thoughts? —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 23:23, 17 August 2025 (UTC)

:And who will then monitor them to make sure they don't damage the project in any way, or abuse the rights acquired in this way? For large projects, this might not be a problem, but for smaller projects like the English Wikiversity, I'm not sure if there are enough users who would say, something is happening here that shouldn't be happening. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 10:28, 20 August 2025 (UTC)
::Anyone would be who. This argument applies to any person with any advanced rights here. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 10:46, 20 August 2025 (UTC)
:I think it is reasonable to allow for longer periods of access than 2 weeks to interface admin and support adjusting the policy to allow for this flexibility. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 04:57, 2 December 2025 (UTC)
::+1 —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 16:38, 25 January 2026 (UTC)
:@[[User:Koavf|Koavf]] I agree that the two-week requirement could be revised, but wouldn’t people just request access for a specific purpose anyway? Instead of granting indefinite access, they should request the specific time frame they need the rights for—until the planned fixes are completed—and then request an extension if more time is required. We could remove the two-week criterion while still keeping the access explicitly temporary. [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 02:48, 25 January 2026 (UTC)
::I just don't see why this wiki needs to be different than all of the others. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 07:18, 25 January 2026 (UTC)
:::There isn’t really much of a need for a permanent one at this point in time [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 09:53, 25 January 2026 (UTC)
:I quite agree with this proposal, so long as they perform the suggested changes as mentioned here. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 04:06, 26 January 2026 (UTC)
:: Just to clarify, I support '''indefinite interface admin status'''. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 18:34, 13 April 2026 (UTC)
:I think there is decent consensus for lengthening this, but not necessarily for indefinite permissions, so does anyone object to me revising it to the standard being 120 days instead of two weeks? I'll check back on this thread in three weeks and if there's no objection, I'll make the change. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 20:47, 13 April 2026 (UTC)
::Sure [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 23:27, 13 April 2026 (UTC)
::Thanks for proposing this, Justin. I agree with the proposal to lengthen the interface admin period from 2 weeks but not indefinitely. Can I check the source(s) for the standard being 120 days (I'm guessing policies on other projects or maybe global policy?)? In any case, I think it is reasonable for us to adopt a similar period. However, note on the current policy discussion page notes from @[[User:Dave Braunschweig|Dave Braunschweig]] arguing for shorter periods to lower risk, that's why it is 2 weeks. But if there are projects that need longer access, that should also be accommodated. Maybe we could adjust the policy to specify that ''interface admin rights can be given for 14 to 120 days depending on how long is required and what is supported by the community''. Sincerely, James -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 08:29, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
:::There was there was no source for 120: it was just more than 14 and less than infinity. The &quot;14 to 120&quot; also seems reasonable. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 14:33, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
::: On some small/medium-sized wikis, such as English Wikibooks and English Wikiquote for example, indefinite interface administrator access for administrators is allowed, but they tend not to make changes to the CSS and JS page changes unless it's truly necessary. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 14:34, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
:::It's a good idea to make the length of this right on request or allow to be prolonged. However, IA should test large changes somewhere else, for example on the en.wv mirror, and only after testing it on the mirror, adapt it to the live version. That means I can't imagine a time-consuming operation right now. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 20:04, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
::::Sorry, what mirror is this? Are you talking about beta.wv? —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 20:32, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
:::::Not beta.wv. Basically somewhere else then on a live wiki. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 20:59, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
:::::: Wouldn't testing on a user's own common.css page work anyway? [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 21:36, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
:Change made here: https://en.wikiversity.org/w/index.php?title=Wikiversity%3AInterface_administrators&amp;diff=2807543&amp;oldid=2806289 —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 13:35, 4 May 2026 (UTC)

== [[Template:AI-generated]] ==

After going through the plethora of ChatGPT-generated pages made by [[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]] (with many more pages to go), I'd like community input on this proposal to [[Wikiversity:Artificial intelligence]] that I think would be benefical for the community:
*Resources generated by AI '''must''' be indicated as so through the project box, [[Template:AI-generated]], on either the page or the main resource (if the page is a part of a project).
I do not believe including a small note/reference that a page is AI-generated is sufficient, and I take my thinking from [[WV:Original research|Wikiversity's OR policy]] for OR work: ''Within Wikiversity, all original research should be clearly identified as such''. I believe resources created from AI should also be clearly indicated as such, especially since we are working on whether or not AI-generated resources should be allowed on the website (discussion is [[Wikiversity talk:Artificial intelligence|here]], for reference). This makes it easier for organizational purposes, and in the event ''if'' we ban AI-generated work. 

I've left a message on Lee's talk page over a week ago and did not get a response or acknowledgement, so I'd like for the community's input for this inclusion to the policy. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 15:53, 26 January 2026 (UTC)

:I believe that existing Wikiversity policies are sufficient. Authors are responsible for the accuracy and usefulness of the content that is published. This policy covers AI-generated content that is: 1) carefully reviewed by the author publishing it, and 2) the source is noted.   [[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]] ([[User talk:Lbeaumont|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Lbeaumont|contribs]]) 19:38, 27 January 2026 (UTC)
::A small reference for pages that are substantially filled with Chat-GPT entries, like [[Real Good Religion]], [[Attributing Blame]], [[Fostering Curiosity]], are not sufficient IMO and a project box would be the best indicator that a page is AI-generated (especially when there is a mixture of human created content AND AI-generated content, as present in a lot of your pages). This is useful, especially considering the notable issues with AI (including hallucinations and fabrication of details), so viewers and support staff are aware. These small notes left on the pages are not as easily viewable as a project box or banner would be. I really don't see the issue with a clear-label guideline. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 22:34, 27 January 2026 (UTC)
::{{ping|Lbeaumont}} I noticed your reversions [https://en.wikiversity.org/w/index.php?title=Exploring_Existential_Concerns&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2788278 here] &amp; [https://en.wikiversity.org/w/index.php?title=Subjective_Awareness&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2788257 here]. I'd prefer to have a clean conversation regarding this proposition. Please voice your concerns here. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 15:53, 28 January 2026 (UTC)
:::Regarding Subjective Awareness, I distinctly recall the effort I went to to write that the old-fashioned way. It is true that ChatGPT assisted me in augmenting the list of words suggested as candidate subjective states. This is a small section of the course, is clearly marked, and makes no factual claim. Marking the entire course as AI-generated is misleading. I would have made these comments when I reverted your edit; however, the revert button does not provide that opportunity.
:::Regarding the Exploring Existential Concerns course, please note this was adapted from my EmotionalCompetency.com website, which predates the availability of LLMs. The course does include two links, clearly labeled as ChatGPT-generated. Again, marking the entire course as AI-generated is misleading.
:::On a broader issue, I don't consider your opinions to have established a carefully debated and adopted Wikiversity policy. You went ahead and modified many of my courses over my clearly stated objections. Please let this issue play out more completely before editing my courses further. Thanks.   [[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]] ([[User talk:Lbeaumont|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Lbeaumont|contribs]]) 15:11, 29 January 2026 (UTC)
::::Understood, and I respect your position. I apologize if my edits were seen as overarching. We could change the project box to &quot;a portion of this resource was generated by AI&quot;, or something along those lines. Feel free to revert my changes where you see fit, and I encourage more users to provide their input. EDIT: I've made changes to the template to indicate that a portion of the content has been generated from an LLM. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 15:50, 29 January 2026 (UTC)
:::::Thanks for this reply. The new banner is unduly large and alarming. There is no need for alarm here. The use of AI is not harmful per se. Like any technology, it can be used to help or to harm. I take care to craft prompts carefully, point the LMM to reliable source materials, and to carefully read and verify the generated text before I publish it. This is all in keeping with long-established Wikiversity policy. We don't want to use a  [[w:One-drop_rule|one-drop rule]] here or cause a [[w:Satanic_panic|satanic panic]]. We can learn our lessons from history here. I don't see any pedagogical reason for establishing a classification of &quot;AI generated&quot;, but if there is a consensus that it is needed, perhaps it can be handled as just another category that learning resources can be assigned to. I would rather focus on identifying any errors in factual claims than on casting pejorative bias toward AI-generated content. An essay on the best practices for using LMM on Wikiveristy would be welcome.   [[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]] ([[User talk:Lbeaumont|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Lbeaumont|contribs]]) 15:58, 30 January 2026 (UTC)
::::::The new banner mimics the banner that is available on the English Wikibooks (see [[b:Template:AI-generated]] &amp; [[b:Template:Uses AI]]), so my revisions aren't unique in this aspect. At this point, I'd welcome other peoples' inputs. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 19:40, 30 January 2026 (UTC)

== How do I start making pages? ==
Is there a notability guideline for Wikiversity? What is the sourcing policy for information? What is the Manual of Style? What kind of educational content qualifies for Wikiversity? All the introduction pages are a bit unclear. 
[[User:VidanaliK|VidanaliK]] ([[User talk:VidanaliK|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/VidanaliK|contribs]]) 02:25, 28 January 2026 (UTC)

:{{ping|VidanaliK}} Welcome to Wikiversity! I've left you a welcome message on your talk page. That should help you out. Make sure to especially look at [[Wikiversity:Introduction]]. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 03:11, 28 January 2026 (UTC)
::It says that I can't post more pages because I have apparently exceeded the new page limit. How long does it take before that new page limit expires? [[User:VidanaliK|VidanaliK]] ([[User talk:VidanaliK|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/VidanaliK|contribs]]) 16:57, 28 January 2026 (UTC)
:::This is a restriction for new users so that Wikiversity is not hit with massive spam. As for when this limit will expire, it should be a few days or after a certain number of edits. It's easy to overcome, though I do not have the exact numbers atm. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 15:08, 29 January 2026 (UTC)
::::OK, I think I got past the limit. [[User:VidanaliK|VidanaliK]] ([[User talk:VidanaliK|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/VidanaliK|contribs]]) 17:21, 29 January 2026 (UTC)
==Why does it feel like Wikiversity is no longer really active anymore?==
I've been looking at recent changes, and both today and yesterday there haven't been many changes that I haven't made; it feels like walking through a ghost town, is this just me or is Wikiversity not really active anymore? [[User:VidanaliK|VidanaliK]] ([[User talk:VidanaliK|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/VidanaliK|contribs]]) 03:54, 30 January 2026 (UTC)

:There is fewer people editing these days compared to the past. Many newcomers tend to edit in Wikipedia instead. [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 06:39, 30 January 2026 (UTC)
:It’s a little slow, but I’m happy to know that Wikiversity is a place that I think should provide value even if the activity of editors fluctuates. If it’s any consolation your edits may be encouraging for some anonymous newcomer to start edits on their own! I think it’s hard to build community when there is such a wide variety of interests and a smaller starting userbase. Also sometimes the getting into a particular topic that already exists can be intimidating because some relics (large portals, school, categories, etc.) have intricate, unique and generally messy levels of organization. [[User:IanVG|IanVG]] ([[User talk:IanVG|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/IanVG|contribs]]) 22:16, 9 March 2026 (UTC)
:I'd say it comes down to working hard for Wikiversity, basically if somebody or a group of people will start presenting good ideas and they turn out to be provably stable.
:I even asked Google's &quot;AI Mode&quot;, what is Wikiversity famous for? Unfortunately it could not answer that.
:Simply, we have not made Wikiversity famous by presenting really provable stable ideas yet. My hope is that this time might come. Perhaps even this year 2026!
:Hope dies last. [[User:ThinkingScience|ThinkingScience]] ([[User talk:ThinkingScience|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ThinkingScience|contribs]]) 10:12, 27 April 2026 (UTC)

== Inactivity policy for Curators ==

I was wondering if there is a specific inactivity polity for curators (semi-admins) as I am pretty sure the global policy does not apply to them as they are not ''fully'' sysops. [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 03:20, 15 February 2026 (UTC)

:Unfortunately, I don't see an inactivity policy, but if we were to create such a new policy for curators, it should be the same for custodians (administrators). [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 18:45, 15 February 2026 (UTC)
::@[[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] There is currently none, that I could find, for custodians either. [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 00:47, 17 February 2026 (UTC)
:::I think we should propose a local inactivity policy for custodians (and by extension, curators), which should be at least one year without any edits ''and'' logged actions. However, I don't know which page should it be when the inactivity removal procedure starts. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 00:53, 17 February 2026 (UTC)
::::@[[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] In theory, there should be a section added at [[WV:Candidates for custodianship]] [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 00:55, 17 February 2026 (UTC)
::::: To be consistent with the [[meta:Admin activity review|global period of 2 years inactivity]] for en.wv  [[Wikiversity:Custodianship#Notes|Custodians]] and [[Wikiversity:Bureaucratship#How are bureaucrats removed?|Bureaucrats]] we could add something like this to [[Wikiversity:Curators]]:
::::::The maximum time period of inactivity &lt;u&gt;without community review&lt;/u&gt; for curators is two years (consistent with  the [[:meta:Category:Global policies|global policy]] described at [[meta:Admin activity review|Admin activity review]] which applies for [[Wikiversity:Custodianship#Notes|Custodians]] and [[Wikiversity:Bureaucratship|Bureaucrats]]). After that time a custodian will remove the rights.
::::: -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 10:51, 27 March 2026 (UTC)
:::::Yup, I agree with Jtneill, there is a policy proposal for Wikiversity:Curators, where it should be logically deployed. The question is if we are ready to aprove the policy. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 17:43, 17 April 2026 (UTC)
:::::: I agree, but we should notify the colloquium about inactive curators, just like a steward would do for inactive custodians and bureaucrats per [[:m:Admin activity review|AAR]]. What is the minimum timeframe an inactive curator should receive so they can respond they would keep their rights? [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 17:49, 17 April 2026 (UTC)
:I incorporated these suggestions into the proposed curators policy. Please review/comment/improve. Summary: 2 years, notify curator's user page, then remove rights after 1 month: [[Wikiversity:Curators#Inactivity]]. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 08:59, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
:: @[[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] I created [[Template:Inactive curator]] for this. Feel free to make any changes or improvements. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 14:29, 24 April 2026 (UTC)

== [[Wikiversity:Artificial intelligence]] to become an official policy ==
{{Archive top|After running for a week, there is consensus, alongside comments, for [[Wikiversity:Artificial intelligence]] to be implemented as an official policy. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 23:27, 17 April 2026 (UTC)}}
With the introduction of AI-material, and some material just plain disruptive, its imperative that Wikiversity catches up with its sister projects and implements an official AI policy that we can work with. The recent issue of [[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]]'s 50+ articles that contain significantly large AI-generated material has made me came to the Colloquium. This user has also been removing the [[Template:AI-generated]] template from their pages, calling it &quot;misleading&quot;, &quot;alarmist&quot;, and &quot;pejorative&quot; - which is all just simply nonsensical rationales. Not to even mention this user's contributions to the English Wikipedia have been [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Inner_Development_Goals contested] and [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Multipolar_trap removed] a couple of times (for being low-quality and clearly LLM-generated), highlighting the need for an actual policy to be implemented here on Wikiversity. I would like to ping {{ping|Juandev}} and {{ping|Jtneill}} for their thoughts as well, since I'd like this to be implemented as soon as possible. 

Wikiversity has a significant issue with implementing anti-disruptive measures, hence why we have received numerous complaints as a community about our quality. I originally was reverting the removal of the templates, but realized that this is still a proposed policy, which it shouldn't be anymore. It should be a recognized Wikiversity policy. 14:54, 10 March 2026 (UTC) —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 14:54, 10 March 2026 (UTC)

:@[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] '''I agree''' that the draft, should become official policy. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 17:00, 10 March 2026 (UTC)
:I provided a detailed response at: [[Wikiversity talk:Artificial intelligence#Evolving a Wikiversity policy on AI]]
:I will appreaciate it if you consder that carefully. [[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]] ([[User talk:Lbeaumont|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Lbeaumont|contribs]]) 22:49, 10 March 2026 (UTC)
:Agree it should become official Wikiversity policy on the condition &lt;u&gt;that point point 5 is about [significant/substantial] LLM-generated text specifically&lt;/u&gt;. Not a good idea to overuse it, it should be added when there is substantial AI-generated text on the page, not for other cases. [[User:Prototyperspective|Prototyperspective]] ([[User talk:Prototyperspective|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Prototyperspective|contribs]]) 12:37, 11 March 2026 (UTC)
:What policy is being debated? Is it the text on this page, which is pointed to by the general banner, or the text at:   [[Wikiversity:Artificial intelligence|Wikiversity:Artificial intelligence,]]   which is pointed to by the specific banner? Let's begin with coherence on the text being debated. Thanks!  [[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]] ([[User talk:Lbeaumont|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Lbeaumont|contribs]]) 11:49, 17 March 2026 (UTC)
::@[[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]] This is a call for approval of the new Wikiversity policy. You expressed your opinion [[Wikiversity talk:Artificial intelligence#Evolving a Wikiversity policy on AI|on the talk page of the proposal]], I replied to you and await your response.When creating policies, it is necessary to propose specific solutions. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 14:12, 17 March 2026 (UTC)
:::Toward a Justified and Parsimonious AI Policy 
:::As we collaborate to develop a consensus policy on the use of Large Language Models, it is wise to begin by considering the needs of the various stakeholders to the policy.
:::The stakeholders are:
:::1)     The users, 
:::2)     The source providers, and
:::3)     The editors
:::There may also be others with a minor stake in this policy, including the population at large.
:::The many needs of the users are currently addressed by long-standing [[Wikiversity:Policies|Wikiversity policies]], so we can focus on what, if any, additional needs arise as LLMs are deployed. 
:::As always, users need assurance that propositional statements are accurate. This is covered by the existing policy on [[Wikiversity:Verifiability|verifiably]]. In addition, it is expected by both the users and those that provide materials used as sources for the text are [[Wikiversity:Cite sources|accurately attributed]]. This is also covered by [[Wikiversity:Cite sources|existing policies]].
:::To respect the time and effort of editors, a parsimonious policy will unburden editors from costly requirements that exceed benefits to the users.
:::Finally, it is important to recognize that because attention is our most valuable seizing attention unnecessarily is a form of theft. 
:::The following proposed policy statement results from these considerations:
:::Recommended Policy statement:
:::·       Editors [[Wikiversity:Verifiability|verify the accuracy]] of propositional statements, regardless of the source.
:::·       Editors [[Wikiversity:Cite sources|attribute the source]] of propositional statements. In the case of LLM, cite the LLM model and the prompt used.
:::·       Use of various available templates to mark the use of LLM are optional. Templates that are flexible in noting the type and extend of LLM usage are preferred. Templates that avoid unduly distracting or alarming the user are preferred. [[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]] ([[User talk:Lbeaumont|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Lbeaumont|contribs]]) 19:56, 19 March 2026 (UTC)
::::Do we discuss here or there? I have replied you there as your proposal is about that policy so it is tradition to discuss it at the affected talk page. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 21:59, 19 March 2026 (UTC)
: {{support}} Thanks for the proposed policy development and discussion; also note proposed policy talk page discussion: [[Wikiversity talk:Artificial intelligence]] -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 12:05, 24 March 2026 (UTC)
::I think the Wikiversity AI policy shall be official. – [[User:RestoreAccess111|RestoreAccess111]] &lt;sup style=&quot;font-family:Arimo, Arial;&quot;&gt;[[User talk:RestoreAccess111|Talk!]]&lt;/sup&gt; &lt;sup style=&quot;font-family:Times New Roman, Tinos;&quot;&gt;[[Special:Contributions/RestoreAccess111|Watch!]]&lt;/sup&gt; 06:11, 13 April 2026 (UTC)
{{archive bottom}}

== New titles for user right nominations ==
&lt;div class=&quot;cd-moveMark&quot;&gt;''Moved from [[Wikiversity talk:Candidates for Custodianship#New titles for user right nominations]].  [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 23:20, 17 April 2026 (UTC)''&lt;/div&gt;

I would like to propose the following retitles should a user be nominated for any of the following user rights:
* Curator: Candidates for Curatorship
* Bureaucrat: Candidates for Bureaucratship
The reason is that many curator (and probably bureaucrat) requests have run solely under {{tq|Candidates for Custodianship}}, but that title might sound misleading (especially in regards to the permission a user is requesting). CheckUser and Oversight (suppressor) are not included above since no user was nominated for these sensitive permissions, probably. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 01:30, 19 March 2026 (UTC)

:And it's not that when someone at the beginning misplaced the request, no one thought to move it and the others copied it. Even today, it would be possible to simply take it all and move it. Otherwise, for me, the more fundamental problem is that there is [[Wikiversity:Curators|no approved policy for curators]] than where the requests are based. Curators then operate in a certain vacuum and if one of them &quot;breaks out of the chain&quot;, the average user doesn't have many transparent tools to deal with it, because there is no policy. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 07:02, 19 March 2026 (UTC)
::I am not talking about the curator page (policy proposal). [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 19:08, 21 March 2026 (UTC)
: @[[User:Juandev|Juandev]] I'll see if I can do an overhaul of [[Wikiversity:Candidates for Custodianship]], just like I recently did with the Requests for adminship page on English Wikiquote. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 22:17, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
:Yes, great idea - ideally there will be separate &quot;Candidates for ...&quot; pages for each user right group. The most important for now is to separate curator and custodian pages as CN suggests. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 11:39, 1 May 2026 (UTC)
:So maybe I previously misunderstood. Are you proposing separated pages for nominations (i.e. [[Wikiversity:Candidates for Curatorship]], [[Wikiversity:Candidates for Bureaucratship]], [[Wikiversity:Candidates for Custodianship]])? [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 12:30, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
:: Yes. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 13:33, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
:::I see, then I am fine with that @[[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]]. Sorry for misunderstanding. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 18:35, 9 May 2026 (UTC)

== Technical Request:  Courtesy link.. ==

[[Template_talk:Information#Background_must_have_color_defined_as_well]] [[User:ShakespeareFan00|ShakespeareFan00]] ([[User talk:ShakespeareFan00|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ShakespeareFan00|contribs]]) 11:43, 20 March 2026 (UTC)
: I can't edit the template directly as it need an sysop/interface admin to do it. [[User:ShakespeareFan00|ShakespeareFan00]] ([[User talk:ShakespeareFan00|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ShakespeareFan00|contribs]]) 11:43, 20 March 2026 (UTC)
:: Also if the Template field of - https://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Special:LintErrors/night-mode-unaware-background-color is examined, there is poential for an admin to clear a substantial proportion of these by implmenting a simmilar fix to the indciated templates (and underlying stylesheets). It would be nice to clear things like Project box and others, as many other templates (and thus pages depend on them.) :)
[[User:ShakespeareFan00|ShakespeareFan00]] ([[User talk:ShakespeareFan00|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ShakespeareFan00|contribs]]) 11:43, 20 March 2026 (UTC)

:I think it would be best to grant you interface admin rights for a short period of time to make these changes. However, I still have doubts about the suitability of this solution, which may cause other problems and no one has explained to me why dark mode has to be implemented this way @[[User:ShakespeareFan00|ShakespeareFan00]]. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 20:43, 20 March 2026 (UTC)

: I would have reservations about holding such rights, which is why I was trying to do what I could without needing them. However if it is the only way to get the required changes made, I would suggest asking on Wikipedia to find technical editors, willing to undertake the changes needed. [[User:ShakespeareFan00|ShakespeareFan00]] ([[User talk:ShakespeareFan00|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ShakespeareFan00|contribs]]) 09:32, 21 March 2026 (UTC)

== WikiEducator has closed ==

Some of you may know of a similar project to Wikiversity, called [https://wikieducator.org/Main_Page WikiEducator], championed by [https://oerfoundation.org/about/staff/wayne-mackintosh/ Wayne Mackintosh][https://www.linkedin.com/posts/waynemackintosh_important-notice-about-the-oer-foundation-activity-7405113051688931329-Nhm9/][https://openeducation.nz/killed-not-starved/].

It seems [https://openeducation.nz/terminating-oer-foundation their foundation has closed] and they are no longer operating.

They had done quite a bit of outreach (e.g., in the Pacific and Africa) to get educators using wiki.

The WikiEducator content is still available in MediaWiki - and potentially could be imported to Wikiversity ([https://wikieducator.org/WikiEducator:Copyrights CC-BY-SA] is the default license).

The closing of WikiEducator arguably makes the nurturing of Wikiversity even more important.

-- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 02:09, 1 April 2026 (UTC)

:I was never active there. If anyone has an account or is otherwise in contact, we may want to copy relevant information here or even at [[:outreach:]]. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 04:46, 1 April 2026 (UTC)

:: I reached out to [[User:Mackiwg~enwikiversity|Wayne]] in January, and he responded briefly but positively (while travelling).  I wrote to the low-traffic wikieducator mailing list today and got a nice [https://groups.google.com/g/wikieducator/c/r_yIyUw6ZIA reply] from [[user:SteveFoerster|Steve Foerster]] who's interested in helping. If we can figure out a migration path it would be great to adopt at least the main namespace pages here.  
:: A few questions that come to mind: 
:: - would people want to create matching user accounts
:: - are there any namespaces (user/talk?) that should not be moved over
:: We could look at how this was done for the [[m:Wikivoyage/Migration]] wikivoyage migration. &lt;span style=&quot;padding:0 2px 0 2px;background-color:white;color:#bbb;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash;[[User:Sj|SJ]][[User Talk:Sj|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#ff9900;&quot;&gt;+&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 04:27, 1 May 2026 (UTC)
:::That's fantastic, SJ, that you've reached out and that Wayne, Steve, and Jim are receptive—and that you can help! -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 11:52, 1 May 2026 (UTC)

== Wikinews is ending ==

Apparently mainly due to low editorial activity, low public interest, but also failure to achieve the goals from the proposal for the creation of the project, the Wikinews project is ending after years of discussions ([[Meta:Proposal for Closing Wikinews|some reading]]).

And I would be interested to see how Wikiversity is doing in the monitored metrics. We probably have more editors than Wikinews had, but what about consumers and achieving the goals? [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 19:14, 1 April 2026 (UTC)

:Wikiversity's biggest issue in recent times was the hosting of low-quality, trash content. Thankfully we've done a great job in removing pseudoscience and other embarrassingly trash content (Wikidebates, for example), but the biggest concern moving forward is proper maintenance IMO. I've caught several pseudoscience pages being created within the last few months that could easily have flown under the radar (ex, [[The Kelemen Dilemma: Causal Collapse and Axiomatic Instability]]), so I'd urge our custodians/curators to be on the lookout for this type of content. Usually an AI-overview can point this type of content out relatively well.
:In terms of visibility, I believe Wikiversity is a high-traffic project. I remember my [[Mathematical Properties]] showing up on the first page of Google when searching up &quot;math properties&quot; for the longest time (and is still showing up in the first page 'till this day!). Besides, Wikinews hosted a lot of short-term content (the nature of news articles), while Wikiversity hosts content that can still be useful a decade later (ex, [[A Reader's Guide to Annotation]]). 
:I think we are on a better path than we were a few months ago, and I do want to thank everyone here who has been helping out with maintaining our website! —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 20:48, 1 April 2026 (UTC)
:For what it's worth, the group that did that study has since disbanded, so no one is monitoring the other sister projects in the same way. Additionally, Wikinews had some catastrophic server issues due to the maintenance of [[:m:Extension:DynamicPageList]] which don't apply here. Your questions are still worth addressing, but I just wanted to cut off any concern at the pass about Wikiversity being in the same precarious situation. Wikiversity is definitely the biggest &quot;lagging behind&quot; or &quot;failure&quot; project now that Wikinews is being shuttered, but I don't see any near- or medium-term pathway to closing Wikiversity. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 00:46, 2 April 2026 (UTC)

:[[w:en:Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2026-03-31/News and notes|Entirety of Wikinews to be shut down]] (Wikipedia Signpost) -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 02:03, 11 April 2026 (UTC)

== Action Required: Update templates/modules for electoral maps (Migrating from P1846 to P14226) ==

Hello everyone,

This is a notice regarding an ongoing data migration on Wikidata that may affect your election-related templates and Lua modules (such as &lt;code&gt;Module:Itemgroup/list&lt;/code&gt;).

'''The Change:'''&lt;br /&gt;
Currently, many templates pull electoral maps from Wikidata using the property [[:d:Property:P1846|P1846]], combined with the qualifier [[:d:Property:P180|P180]]: [[:d:Q19571328|Q19571328]]. 

We are migrating this data (across roughly 4,000 items) to a newly created, dedicated property: '''[[:d:Property:P14226|P14226]]'''.

'''What You Need To Do:'''&lt;br /&gt;
To ensure your templates and infoboxes do not break or lose their maps, please update your local code to fetch data from [[:d:Property:P14226|P14226]] instead of the old [[:d:Property:P1846|P1846]] + [[:d:Property:P180|P180]] structure. A [[m:Wikidata/Property Migration: P1846 to P14226/List|list of pages]] was generated using Wikimedia Global Search.

'''Deadline:'''&lt;br /&gt;
We are temporarily retaining the old data on [[:d:Property:P1846|P1846]] to allow for a smooth transition. However, to complete the data cleanup on Wikidata, the old [[:d:Property:P1846|P1846]] statements will be removed after '''May 1, 2026'''. Please update your modules and templates before this date to prevent any disruption to your wiki's election articles.

Let us know if you have any questions or need assistance with the query logic. Thank you for your help! [[User:ZI Jony|ZI Jony]] using [[User:MediaWiki message delivery|MediaWiki message delivery]] ([[User talk:MediaWiki message delivery|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/MediaWiki message delivery|contribs]]) 17:11, 3 April 2026 (UTC)
&lt;!-- Message sent by User:ZI Jony@metawiki using the list at https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Distribution_list/Non-Technical_Village_Pumps_distribution_list&amp;oldid=29941252 --&gt;
:I didnt find such properties, so we are probably fine. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 21:00, 12 April 2026 (UTC)
:: +1 (agreed). [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 22:19, 12 April 2026 (UTC)

== Enable the abuse filter block action? ==

In light of [[Special:AbuseLog/80178]] (coupon spam), I would like to propose enabling the block action for the abuse filter. Only custodians will be able to enable and disable that action on an abuse filter, and it is useful to block ongoing vandalism. Thoughts? [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 19:12, 13 April 2026 (UTC)

:Seems like a good idea, almost all of the users which create such pages are spambots so this shouldn’t be a problem. [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 23:41, 13 April 2026 (UTC)
:Can you explain some more (I am new to abuse filters)? It looks like the attempted edit was prevented? Which abuse filter?
:Note on your suggestion, have also reactivated Antispam Filter 12 - see [[WV:RCA]]. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 10:45, 15 April 2026 (UTC)
:: I am proposing that we activate the abuse filter block action, which if a user triggers an abuse filter, it would actually block the user in question - the same mechanism that a custodian would use to block users. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 13:11, 15 April 2026 (UTC)
:::OK, thankyou, that makes sense. And, reviewing the abuse filter 12 log, it would be helpful because it would prevent the need for manual blocking. But I don't see a setting for autoblocking? -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 23:14, 15 April 2026 (UTC)
:::: I think it probably adds an autoblock. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 00:43, 16 April 2026 (UTC)
: [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] and [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]], given that a little bit more than a week has passed and there is minimal consensus to activate the abuse filter block action, I filed [[phab:T424053]]. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 15:05, 21 April 2026 (UTC)
::Thank-you for doing this. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 08:03, 24 April 2026 (UTC)

== Advice needed: A Neurodiversity-inspired Idea/observation ==

If I want the greatest participation of others to &quot;provide constructive criticism to my idea&quot; or to &quot;shoot down my idea&quot; or &quot;idea&quot;.

What I've called it so far is &quot;The Neurodiversity-inspired Idea&quot;. At other times I used more sensationalist wording but here on Wikiversity I don't dare do that. I actually woke up with thinking about putting this into my userspace draft: &quot;Personal Observations Made By Meeting Autistic and Non-Autistic Adults&quot;.

My ultimate goal is to stop blathering about my &quot;idea&quot; to friend and family without feeling my &quot;methodology&quot; is going into any progressive direction whatsoever. My latest encounter was somewhat constructive though. A friend of a friend who worked with people presenting ideas in attempting to getting grants. I don't want a grant. I just want to figure out how I can express my &quot;idea&quot; in a way so that I can more clearly figure out what flaws it got.

At the same time I tend to overthink. If anyone thinks etherpad might be a good place and considering Wikimedia already got an etherpad at https://etherpad.wikimedia.org/ if anyone feels like they know me better in the future feel free to suggest a &quot;session&quot; on etherpad.

'''If I don't receive a reply to this in 1 week's time I will begin to explore this &quot;idea&quot; into my userspace''' unless you replied and refrained me from doing so, of course. Then maybe after &quot;developing it there&quot; I might reference it to you another future time here in the Colloquium, with my &quot;idea&quot; still in my userspace draft. This &quot;idea&quot; is sort of a burden, I'm happy I've made the choice to get rid of it and hopefully move on with my life, unless there is something to this &quot;idea&quot;. 

My failure is probably evident: I feel I haven't told you anything. Same happened to when I talked to friends and family. In danger of overthinking it further I'll publish this right now. I need to &quot;keep it together&quot; [[User:ThinkingScience|ThinkingScience]] ([[User talk:ThinkingScience|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ThinkingScience|contribs]]) 10:36, 16 April 2026 (UTC)

:Good on you putting it out there ... and hitting publish :). I'd say go for it (no need to wait), give birth to your idea and share about it here and elsewhere. Let it take shape and see where it might go. In many ways, this is exactly what an open collaborative learning community should be doing. Others might not know well how to respond, so perhaps consider creating some questions to accompany the idea. Sincerely, James -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 11:21, 16 April 2026 (UTC)
::Thank you for encouraging me in developing the idea.
::I have created a &quot;questions&quot; section in the draft which is visible in the table of contents now. My brain was &quot;frozen&quot; today metaphorically speaking in that I felt I had like a &quot;writer's block&quot; so the draft has more &quot;AI/LLM&quot; content than before. I used the LLM for generating questions. The answers are so far human-only.
::I've also created a subsection where I could add the prompts that made the LLM generate the questions. That could help people make better prompts perhaps. I've described what it is about inside of it and there are some chaotically written notes.
::[[Draft:The_Neurodiversity-inspired_Idea#Questions_that_might_encourage_the_development_of_this_idea_and_its_methodology]]
::My draft is missing stuff. Any questions that you contribute to my draft will probably help me and if I don't understand the questions I'll probably notify you and also at the same time &quot;feed them&quot; to an LLM and ask in my input like &quot;explain in simple words what this question means, what is it searching for?&quot; etc. while I wait for an answer. If you have any more feedback please give it to me here or on the Draft page, its talk page or my user talk page. Thank you for helping me! [[User:ThinkingScience|ThinkingScience]] ([[User talk:ThinkingScience|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ThinkingScience|contribs]]) 21:20, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
::Today I woke up with not only thinking about supplying questions along with the &quot;idea&quot; but also answers. ie. Is it possible to &quot;test&quot; this idea? Is it possible to create one or multiple hypotheses based on this &quot;idea&quot;?(etc.) I've thought about this before in this &quot;idea&quot; but since I'm beginning to add to Wikiversity what was previously 'locked in my mind' it's also easier for me to see what I've done so far. Thank you for this comment! [[User:ThinkingScience|ThinkingScience]] ([[User talk:ThinkingScience|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ThinkingScience|contribs]]) 09:11, 23 April 2026 (UTC)
:May I think that you should not add deadlines ; being read, and rising interest for collaboration, or even simply for exchange of thoughts, such an effective meeting event loads a huge bunch of unprobability, which time can help to… somehow diminish. Maybe, I would advice you having a central place for developping your ideas, your needs, your advances, maybe a page in your own user zone, and from time to time, depending your feeling, it could be every trimester or so, or more frequently, you could write a short account of progress (or even of no progress), or a call for participation, in such a place as this present one ; I think that will increase much exposure of your projet. Maybe also, if you can find a project name, not necessarily very meaningfull by itseilf (at least it will gain signification with time, as your project develops), that will serve as a kind-of hook, and make your announcement titles more visible. Best regards (and my excuses for my poor command of English, which seems to be unplease an anti-abuse filter, &quot;Questionable Language (profanity)&quot;, which I don't understand…). My few cents. --  [[User:Eric.LEWIN|Eric.LEWIN]] ([[User talk:Eric.LEWIN|discussion]] • [[Special:Contributions/Eric.LEWIN|contributions]]) 10:06, 17 April 2026 (UTC)
::Sorry about the false positive on the profanity filter - I've fixed it. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 10:26, 17 April 2026 (UTC)
:::&quot;May I think that you should not add deadlines ; being read, and rising interest for collaboration, or even simply for exchange of thoughts, such an effective meeting event loads a huge bunch of unprobability, which time can help to… somehow diminish.&quot;
::Thank you Eric for this comment. Trust in time is how I interpret it. I should not feel like I need to be in a hurry. I'll try to give this time. Thank you!
:::&quot;Maybe, I would advice you having a central place for developping your ideas, your needs, your advances, maybe a page in your own user zone, and from time to time, depending your feeling, it could be every trimester or so, or more frequently, you could write a short account of progress (or even of no progress), or a call for participation, in such a place as this present one ; I think that will increase much exposure of your projet.&quot;
::A central place for developing or making &quot;project notes&quot; regarding the Neurodiversity idea on my userspace, I might need that, like a diary or &quot;project notes&quot; of the Neurodiversity idea similar to my course notes regarding my experience with Coursera.
::Any actions I take are going to be related to my Userspace from now on but I'll also update the draft when necessary. Now in the beginning I might be working daily to once every 3 days on both the draft and the daily notes I plan to make.
:::&quot;Maybe also, if you can find a project name, not necessarily very meaningfull by itseilf (at least it will gain signification with time, as your project develops), that will serve as a kind-of hook, and make your announcement titles more visible.&quot;
::Thank you for the advice. I was brainstorming yesterday about it. I concluded that since I've not yet developed a methodology that adheres to &quot;Do no harm&quot; and this is my first time working my &quot;idea&quot; into a way that is compatible with how projects develop on English Wikiversity this is new to me. My methodology isn't developed and therefore trying to get attention to my project through a name can wait. Yesterday I figured out a silly title that has nothing to do with the project: &quot;Planetary Awareness Potato Cabbage Rolls&quot; or something like that. Google output read that no such thing exists so I wanted it mainly to be unique. I don't want to raise attention that I'm unsure whether I'll actually be capable of developing a methodology for but project notes is my best bet so far in tracking my progress. Every day I think about this &quot;idea&quot; but I need to improve the important parts.
:::&quot;Best regards (and my excuses for my poor command of English, which seems to be unplease an anti-abuse filter, &quot;Questionable Language (profanity)&quot;, which I don't understand…). My few cents.&quot;
::You added great points and I felt that I was helped by you! I encourage you to post again and I can understand that interacting with any kind of automated filter can be discouraging and can be for me too! Thank you for giving me feedback! [[User:ThinkingScience|ThinkingScience]] ([[User talk:ThinkingScience|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ThinkingScience|contribs]]) 16:01, 18 April 2026 (UTC)

== Add some user rights to the curator user group? ==

By default, only custodians have the ability to mark new pages as patrolled (&lt;code&gt;patrol&lt;/code&gt;) and have their own page creations automatically marked as patrolled (&lt;code&gt;autopatrol&lt;/code&gt;). I am proposing both of the following:
* Curators can mark new pages as patrolled, helping on reducing the backlog of new, unpatrolled pages.
* New pages made by curators will be automatically marked as patrolled by the MediaWiki software.
Before we implement this, I would suggest implementing a proposed guideline for marking new pages as patrolled for curators and custodians.

Thoughts? [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 16:32, 17 April 2026 (UTC)

:Agree, &lt;s&gt;also can we also allow curators to undelete pages since they already have the rights to delete them?&lt;/s&gt; [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 02:54, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
::I think the requirement that undelete NOT be included came from above (meta / stewards / central office). Having access to the undelete page gives access to information that is restricted by their policies to admins (custodians and bureaucrats). -- [[User:Dave Braunschweig|Dave Braunschweig]] ([[User talk:Dave Braunschweig|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dave Braunschweig|contribs]]) 20:12, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
::: [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]], unless if requests for curator and custodian should be RfA-like processes (that is, including voting and comments), then I have to agree with Dave above. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 22:03, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
::::Oh, I didn’t realise that. Withdrawing my comment.. [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 00:08, 19 April 2026 (UTC)
:{{support}} Seems reasonable and would reduce overhead. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 14:35, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
:'''Agree''', implement it also to [[Wikiversity:Curators]] proposal please. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 17:11, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
: I went ahead and filed [[phab:T424445]]. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 15:39, 26 April 2026 (UTC)

== [[Wikiversity:Curators|Curators and curators policy]] ==
{{archive top|There is strong consensus, so [[Wikiversity:Curators]] is now a policy. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 11:15, 9 May 2026 (UTC)}}
How does it come, that Wikiversity has curators, but Curators policy is still being proposed? How do the curators exists and act if the policy about them havent been approved yet? [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 18:33, 16 October 2025 (UTC)

:It looks as if it is not just curators. The policy on Bureaucratship is still being proposed as well. See [[Wikiversity:Bureaucratship]]. —[[User:RailwayEnthusiast2025|&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Verdana; color:#008000; text-shadow:gray 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em;&quot;&gt;RailwayEnthusiast2025&lt;/span&gt;]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:RailwayEnthusiast2025|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#59a53f&quot;&gt;''talk with me!''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 18:33, 27 October 2025 (UTC)

:I think its just the nature of a small WMF sister project in that there are lots of drafts, gaps, and potential improvements. In this case, these community would need to vote on those proposed Wikiversity staff policies if we think they're ready. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 02:08, 3 December 2025 (UTC)
:What? I thought you were getting it approved, Juandev... :) [[User:I&amp;#39;m Mr. Chris|I&amp;#39;m Mr. Chris]] ([[User talk:I&amp;#39;m Mr. Chris|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/I&amp;#39;m Mr. Chris|contribs]]) 14:20, 12 February 2026 (UTC)
::Yeah I think this one is important too and we need to aprove it too @[[User:I'm Mr. Chris|I'm Mr. Chris]]. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 15:56, 12 February 2026 (UTC)
:::I thinks its ready to made into a policy, it seems to be complete and informative about what the rights does and how to get it. [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 03:08, 15 February 2026 (UTC)
::::Agree -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 11:00, 27 March 2026 (UTC)

Let's make this the official discussion about adopting the [[Wikiversity:Curators|curators policy]] policy. Your comments are invited and welcome. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 08:40, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
: There were two similar Colloquium threads in separate places about the proposed curators policy. So I've moved them to be adjacent. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 12:42, 1 May 2026 (UTC)
{{archive bottom}}

== Wikiversity:Curators to become a policy ==
{{archive top|There is strong consensus, so [[Wikiversity:Curators]] is now a policy. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 11:16, 9 May 2026 (UTC)}}
I've looked at the discussions about the Curators policy, I've looked at the practices, and it seems to me that there is no dispute about the wording of the policy, and what's more, the community has been using this proposal as if it were an offical policy for several years. Therefore, I propose that [[Wikiversity:Curators]] become a policy. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 18:35, 18 April 2026 (UTC)

:{{support}} —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 18:54, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
:{{support}} —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 20:21, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
: {{support|Yes, please}}. Especially after when I and PieWriter proposed above, I agree. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 14:27, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
:: @[[User:Juandev|Juandev]]; as of now, curators now have the user rights &lt;code&gt;autopatrol&lt;/code&gt; and &lt;code&gt;patrol&lt;/code&gt;. Perhaps we should also include that in [[Wikiversity:Custodianship]]? [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 12:07, 30 April 2026 (UTC)
:::You meant [[Wikiversity:Curators]] @[[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]]? [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 12:15, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
:::: I agree that we must develop what rules curators should follow when marking new pages as patrolled; the same can be added for custodians since they can also mark new pages as patrolled. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 13:37, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
:::::I see, well I think you can just add this to the policy. It is not major change and it probably reflects actual practice or actual technical possibilities for those flags. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 09:20, 7 May 2026 (UTC)
:{{support}} -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 12:42, 1 May 2026 (UTC)
:{{Support}} per nom. [[User:PhilDaBirdMan|PhilDaBirdMan]] ([[User talk:PhilDaBirdMan|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PhilDaBirdMan|contribs]]) 13:32, 1 May 2026 (UTC)
{{Archive bottom}}

== Inactive curators ==

Hello, even though [[Wikiversity:Curators]] is not a policy yet, there are curators listed here that have been inactive for two years or more:
* {{user|Cody naccarato}} (last edit on 13 Dec 2022, last logged action on 10 Dec 2022)
* {{user|Praxidicae}} (last edit on 10 Sep 2022, last logged action on 12 Sep 2022)
[[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 21:14, 19 April 2026 (UTC)

:Yup, I would remove the rights. To get the rights back if theyll come back should not be a big deal. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 20:08, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
:: When they don't reply by May 19, feel free (or any custodian) to do so. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 00:28, 25 April 2026 (UTC)

== Is anyone interested in Neurodiversity? ==

Is anyone interested in Neurodiversity? Is there anyone here who is interested for Neurodiversity to be &quot;something more&quot; than it already is? Does anyone here consider Neurodiversity one of the &quot;harder topics&quot; to work on or discuss? Does anyone here have an opinion about the [[Neurodiversity Movement]]? So these questions don't appear like &quot;out of a vacuum&quot; I can tell you a bit about my background:

Many years ago I got a psychiatric diagnosis &quot;Asperger's&quot;. After I stepped out of the office and my Äsperger's was 'concluded', I stepped out into the street and thought my first negative thought(but the positive thought followed after). The thought was about concentration camps in the second world war and that the world seemed to be going into the direction of &quot;labeling others&quot;. I was unsure whether this was &quot;real science&quot; and sort of &quot;challenged myself&quot; to make up my own mind after meeting people that had been given this diagnosis. The more adults with this diagnosis I met the more I started seeing &quot;patterns&quot;.

Was it a coincidence that the first person with Asperger's I met reminded me about my father later after I had plenty of times of experience with interacting with him? None of the people I interacted with online through IRC text chat...I felt I got any clue about how &quot;their brains work&quot;. Only when I met one person from the Asperger's chat community in person we both realized that whatever we experienced was akin to the &quot;chaos theory&quot;. He told me about &quot;chaos theory&quot; while I didn't know even what that term meant but I guess I 'read between the lines'. My question that I linger on still today is &quot;did he understand about me what I think I understood about him?&quot;? That our brains had the same configuration? Most autistic adults who meet other autistic adults usually get disappointed. They think the diagnosis will help them meet somebody like themselves and then they realize the great diversity in the autistic spectrum created by Psychiatry.

I later stopped interacting with autistic communities that much, I felt that it did not benefit me. Also Neurodiversity's &quot;neurotypes&quot; interested me for a while until I realized I had &quot;misunderstood everything&quot; about them and how they are used in the Neurodiversity Movement or &quot;Neurodiversity community&quot; if that even can precisely be defined? I doubt it but if you want to contribute to the [[Neurodiversity Movement]]. My previous attempts failed as I got more and more confused. I think a community project needs a community. With a lack of that I don't think it is worth my time. If any of you would like to work on that project let me know on my talk page.

So I was kinda lost and was talking to my friend and psychologist and I realized if I never talk about my idea to anyone in a &quot;comprehensive way&quot; or show that it matters to me nothing is going to ever happen. So I started talking about my &quot;idea&quot; more. Nobody could understand the &quot;idea&quot; because I had not developed my skills regarding where to start...although the process had already started &quot;automatically&quot; and that's why I often think of &quot;well my brain sort of activated me&quot;. I don't feel like I did have a plan and this idea happened. It happened &quot;by itself&quot;. My brain reacted to what I was seeing in a video or stream.

I value interaction highly in this idea. I think it would be helpful to make a community of people who are not paranoid about stuff that can express itself like &quot;don't analyze me!&quot;, &quot;don't compare me to anyone!&quot;. 

On the contrary, more often than not those adults who were diagnosed were actually openly comparing themselves with each other and I think that is healthy in a &quot;science&quot; way if done the &quot;right way&quot; which probably means &quot;Do no harm&quot;.

I found video material is important but I'm very unsure if uploading own video material to Wikimedia Commons would constitute a &quot;reasonable&quot; use of the resources there. Maybe somebody here needs to ask more questions to me that I should answer before that happens. I also know the '''be bold''' so I could just do what I think might be ok. Though I work better in a group as long as I know what &quot;group configurations&quot; help me. This is in a non-profit way. Since the state supported me this might be a way I am trying to &quot;give back&quot; to the state and &quot;the world&quot;. May seem overly ambitious and crazy but this thing gives me energy. It gives me hope when trying to develop this idea. [[User:ThinkingScience|ThinkingScience]] ([[User talk:ThinkingScience|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ThinkingScience|contribs]]) 10:47, 23 April 2026 (UTC)

:Thanks for sharing. There is plenty of room for neurodiversity community learning. However, the challenge I think is that the intersection of those interested in (a) ND, and (b) English Wikiversity might be very small (e.g., 1!) at this point in time.
:But don't give up hope. For example, Wikipedia has many more ND-interested editors; maybe consider reaching out to see who might be interested:
:[[w:Category:Wikipedians interested in neurodiversity]]
:You could also start an equivalent category here:
:[[:Category:Wikiversitarians interested in neurodiversity]] -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 04:46, 6 May 2026 (UTC)

== Request for comment (global AI policy) ==

&lt;bdi lang=&quot;en&quot; dir=&quot;ltr&quot; class=&quot;mw-content-ltr&quot;&gt;A [[:m:Requests for comment/Artificial intelligence policy|request for comment]] is currently being held to decide on a global AI policy. {{int:Feedback-thanks-title}} [[User:MediaWiki message delivery|MediaWiki message delivery]] ([[User talk:MediaWiki message delivery|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/MediaWiki message delivery|contribs]]) 00:58, 26 April 2026 (UTC)&lt;/bdi&gt;
&lt;!-- Message sent by User:Codename Noreste@metawiki using the list at https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Distribution_list/Global_message_delivery&amp;oldid=30424282 --&gt;

== Coming over From wikinews ==

Any chance someone could help me if you are allowed to write news articles here since wikinews is going read only mode soon, thank you! [[User:BigKrow|BigKrow]] ([[User talk:BigKrow|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/BigKrow|contribs]]) 22:43, 1 May 2026 (UTC)

:The scope of Wikiversity is very broad and is basically about more-or-less any learning material. We have made it a point to not have duplicative content of other WMF projects, but since Wikinews is being shuttered, I personally am fine with writing news articles here. One thing that is not controversial at all is a learning resource &lt;em&gt;about&lt;/em&gt; how to write news: that could be hugely useful here and could involve the process of writing news stories to learn and to share back and forth with an editor or fact-checker. In fact, I'd support an entire namespace dedicated to keeping the notion of Wikinews alive here. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 23:38, 1 May 2026 (UTC)
::Thank you so much! How do I start? Cheers! @[[User:Koavf|Koavf]] [[User:BigKrow|BigKrow]] ([[User talk:BigKrow|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/BigKrow|contribs]]) 01:07, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
:::I think it's premature to start just making news articles en masse, but if you want to start discussing the topic of citizen journalism, you can do that now. [[:Category:Journalism]] already has some material, so you can start by seeing what we already have, how you can refine that, etc. You can definitely have learning resources with collaborators who want to learn about journalism ASAP. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 01:24, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
::::thanks. [[User:BigKrow|BigKrow]] ([[User talk:BigKrow|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/BigKrow|contribs]]) 01:38, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
::::If I could try and start one News Article could you please tell me how to go about it? Like what style of writing like Wikinews or something else? Thank you Justin! @[[User:Koavf|Koavf]] [[User:BigKrow|BigKrow]] ([[User talk:BigKrow|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/BigKrow|contribs]]) 01:48, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
:::::Honestly, there are very few policies and guidelines here. I think the best way to write a news story would be in a manner that is obvious and instructive. So, for instance, it's common to use the &quot;pyramid style&quot; when you're writing news, so if you were to write a story that makes it very clear that you are using that approach, that would be helpful. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 02:08, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
::::::cool thanks. [[User:BigKrow|BigKrow]] ([[User talk:BigKrow|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/BigKrow|contribs]]) 02:13, 2 May 2026 (UTC)

== Language learning  ==

toki! I am trying to add or see what the toki pona language learning stuff on here is but I don't see anything that is language learning for anything. [[User:Jan Imon|Jan Imon]] ([[User talk:Jan Imon|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Jan Imon|contribs]]) 23:13, 2 May 2026 (UTC) —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 17:29, 3 May 2026 (UTC)

:We have language materials ([[:Category:Languages]], [[World Languages]], [[Portal:Foreign Language Learning]], [[Portal:Multilingual Studies]]). They are not as developed as I think we would all like and there's not any coverage of Toki Pona, but in principle, we could and would like that. You can also see [[:b:Subject:Languages]] at our sister project Wikibooks. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 17:33, 3 May 2026 (UTC)

== Timeline format? ==

I’ve been working on the World War II articles, including the [[World War II/Timeline|timeline]], and is there a specific timeline format that should be used? Right now it’s just a table, and there’s no separation between different periods/phases of the war.

I don’t want to use [[mw:Extension:EasyTimeline]] because this will be displaying dates and not time periods. [[User:PhilDaBirdMan|PhilDaBirdMan]] ([[User talk:PhilDaBirdMan|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PhilDaBirdMan|contribs]]) 01:35, 4 May 2026 (UTC)

:I dont think we have a policy or guideline, how to format a timeline. But you may try to browes wikiversity by Google if someone was dealing with this in the past somewhow @[[User:PhilDaBirdMan|PhilDaBirdMan]]. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 12:23, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
::+1 - there's no specific guideline on how to format a timeline, it's really up to you. In my opinion I think the timeline is good. I'd personally bold the dates just to make it easier to separate it from the event description, but that's my personal 2 cents. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 14:18, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
:::I’ll probably remove links to the dates/years, they’re just Wikipedia pages that shouldn’t be over linked to. [[User:PhilDaBirdMan|PhilDaBirdMan]] ([[User talk:PhilDaBirdMan|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PhilDaBirdMan|contribs]]) 00:39, 6 May 2026 (UTC)

== Interface administrator for Codename Noreste ==

Hello, everyone. I am requesting interface administrator access on this wiki.

The main reasoning is that I would benefit from having the user right &lt;code&gt;editinterface&lt;/code&gt;, which would allow me to make dark mode changes to pages in the MediaWiki namespace, add &lt;code&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;&lt;div class=&quot;mw-parser-output&quot;&gt;&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/code&gt; to some interface pages using templates, handle interface-protected edit requests, and similar stuff. Additionally, I have some knowledge of CSS, and I would like to assist with modifying CSS pages whenever necessary, such as moving MediaWiki common.css code to TemplateStyles CSS pages.

I am requesting the maximum time that is allowed per the [[Wikiversity:Interface administrators|policy]], and I have 2FA enabled on my account. Thank you. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 00:55, 6 May 2026 (UTC)

*{{support}} Globally trusted user. ―[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:black&quot;&gt;v&lt;/span&gt;f&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 01:07, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
*{{support}} Trusted and knowledgeable. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 04:35, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
*{{support}} WV would benefit from this. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 08:32, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
*{{support}} --[[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 09:13, 7 May 2026 (UTC)

:{{Comment}} Could @[[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] delete [[MediaWiki:Gadget-WikiSign.js]], which was requested to be deleted @[[User:Koavf|Justin]], @[[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]], @[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]]? I dont think we need it. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 07:40, 9 May 2026 (UTC)
::Yes - clearly no longer used -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 10:18, 9 May 2026 (UTC)
::: I can't delete it because I don't have the required permissions to do so.
::: On a side note, if this project has a need for permanent interface administrators, I would suggest that we have a minimum of two IAs, similar to how there must be two CUs and/or suppressors (or none). Maybe Koavf can be a good candidate if I am elected for permanent interface adminship, and I believe that permission shouldn't be removed from someone's own account. Instead, a bureaucrat should do it. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 13:20, 9 May 2026 (UTC)
::::I am willing and happy to do it, unfortunately, we do not have an appetite for indef IAs and just had a discussion that resulted in a [https://en.wikiversity.org/w/index.php?title=Wikiversity:Interface_administrators&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2807543 consensus that we can have IAs that have the user rights for 14 to 120 days]. So once you have the rights, please make sure to gopher it. ―[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:black&quot;&gt;v&lt;/span&gt;f&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 17:54, 9 May 2026 (UTC)
:::::@[[User:Koavf|Koavf]] give it time. Look at me, I was in favor of shorter time, now I am looking back to times, when custodians could do it without the need of extra flag. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 18:31, 9 May 2026 (UTC)
::::::Here's hoping. I think it would reduce administrative overhead, but that's just me and I'm not a bureaucrat here. ―[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:black&quot;&gt;v&lt;/span&gt;f&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 18:33, 9 May 2026 (UTC)
::::Complicated. Where are the times, admins could do everything! [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 18:27, 9 May 2026 (UTC)

== [[Wikiversity:Bureaucratship]] to become a policy ==

Following the recent approval of [[Wikiversity:Curators]] as a policy, I think [[Wikiversity:Bureaucratship]] may also be ready for policy status.

Please share your views about whether bureaucratship is ready to become a policy, or whether further revisions are needed.

-- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 13:58, 9 May 2026 (UTC)
: I added a logo about that user group, but other than that, it looks good to me. {{support}}. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 14:38, 9 May 2026 (UTC)</text>
      <sha1>3ammmcxqk1eb0hresg8ghvck2t4i58r</sha1>
    </revision>
    <revision>
      <id>2808092</id>
      <parentid>2808089</parentid>
      <timestamp>2026-05-09T18:45:21Z</timestamp>
      <contributor>
        <username>Juandev</username>
        <id>2651</id>
      </contributor>
      <comment>/* Wikiversity:Bureaucratship to become a policy */ Reply</comment>
      <origin>2808092</origin>
      <model>wikitext</model>
      <format>text/x-wiki</format>
      <text bytes="81001" sha1="m78l0eh4c6kbqux9xfjfsfq7bulrai7" xml:space="preserve">{{Wikiversity:Colloquium/Header}}
&lt;!-- MESSAGES GO BELOW --&gt;
== Requested update to [[Wikiversity:Interface administrators]] ==

Currently, [[Wikiversity:Interface administrators]] is a policy that includes a caveat that interface admins are not required long-term and that user right can only be added for a period of up to two weeks. I am proposing that we remove this qualification and allow for indefinite interface admin status. I think this is useful because there are reasons for tweaking the site CSS or JavaScript (e.g. to comply with dark mode), add gadgets (e.g. importing Cat-a-Lot, which I would like to do), or otherwise modifying the site that could plausibly come up on an irregular basis and requiring the overhead of a bureaucrat to add the user rights is inefficient. In particular, I am also going to request this right if the community accepts indefinite interface admins. Thoughts? —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 23:23, 17 August 2025 (UTC)

:And who will then monitor them to make sure they don't damage the project in any way, or abuse the rights acquired in this way? For large projects, this might not be a problem, but for smaller projects like the English Wikiversity, I'm not sure if there are enough users who would say, something is happening here that shouldn't be happening. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 10:28, 20 August 2025 (UTC)
::Anyone would be who. This argument applies to any person with any advanced rights here. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 10:46, 20 August 2025 (UTC)
:I think it is reasonable to allow for longer periods of access than 2 weeks to interface admin and support adjusting the policy to allow for this flexibility. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 04:57, 2 December 2025 (UTC)
::+1 —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 16:38, 25 January 2026 (UTC)
:@[[User:Koavf|Koavf]] I agree that the two-week requirement could be revised, but wouldn’t people just request access for a specific purpose anyway? Instead of granting indefinite access, they should request the specific time frame they need the rights for—until the planned fixes are completed—and then request an extension if more time is required. We could remove the two-week criterion while still keeping the access explicitly temporary. [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 02:48, 25 January 2026 (UTC)
::I just don't see why this wiki needs to be different than all of the others. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 07:18, 25 January 2026 (UTC)
:::There isn’t really much of a need for a permanent one at this point in time [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 09:53, 25 January 2026 (UTC)
:I quite agree with this proposal, so long as they perform the suggested changes as mentioned here. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 04:06, 26 January 2026 (UTC)
:: Just to clarify, I support '''indefinite interface admin status'''. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 18:34, 13 April 2026 (UTC)
:I think there is decent consensus for lengthening this, but not necessarily for indefinite permissions, so does anyone object to me revising it to the standard being 120 days instead of two weeks? I'll check back on this thread in three weeks and if there's no objection, I'll make the change. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 20:47, 13 April 2026 (UTC)
::Sure [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 23:27, 13 April 2026 (UTC)
::Thanks for proposing this, Justin. I agree with the proposal to lengthen the interface admin period from 2 weeks but not indefinitely. Can I check the source(s) for the standard being 120 days (I'm guessing policies on other projects or maybe global policy?)? In any case, I think it is reasonable for us to adopt a similar period. However, note on the current policy discussion page notes from @[[User:Dave Braunschweig|Dave Braunschweig]] arguing for shorter periods to lower risk, that's why it is 2 weeks. But if there are projects that need longer access, that should also be accommodated. Maybe we could adjust the policy to specify that ''interface admin rights can be given for 14 to 120 days depending on how long is required and what is supported by the community''. Sincerely, James -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 08:29, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
:::There was there was no source for 120: it was just more than 14 and less than infinity. The &quot;14 to 120&quot; also seems reasonable. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 14:33, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
::: On some small/medium-sized wikis, such as English Wikibooks and English Wikiquote for example, indefinite interface administrator access for administrators is allowed, but they tend not to make changes to the CSS and JS page changes unless it's truly necessary. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 14:34, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
:::It's a good idea to make the length of this right on request or allow to be prolonged. However, IA should test large changes somewhere else, for example on the en.wv mirror, and only after testing it on the mirror, adapt it to the live version. That means I can't imagine a time-consuming operation right now. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 20:04, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
::::Sorry, what mirror is this? Are you talking about beta.wv? —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 20:32, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
:::::Not beta.wv. Basically somewhere else then on a live wiki. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 20:59, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
:::::: Wouldn't testing on a user's own common.css page work anyway? [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 21:36, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
:Change made here: https://en.wikiversity.org/w/index.php?title=Wikiversity%3AInterface_administrators&amp;diff=2807543&amp;oldid=2806289 —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 13:35, 4 May 2026 (UTC)

== [[Template:AI-generated]] ==

After going through the plethora of ChatGPT-generated pages made by [[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]] (with many more pages to go), I'd like community input on this proposal to [[Wikiversity:Artificial intelligence]] that I think would be benefical for the community:
*Resources generated by AI '''must''' be indicated as so through the project box, [[Template:AI-generated]], on either the page or the main resource (if the page is a part of a project).
I do not believe including a small note/reference that a page is AI-generated is sufficient, and I take my thinking from [[WV:Original research|Wikiversity's OR policy]] for OR work: ''Within Wikiversity, all original research should be clearly identified as such''. I believe resources created from AI should also be clearly indicated as such, especially since we are working on whether or not AI-generated resources should be allowed on the website (discussion is [[Wikiversity talk:Artificial intelligence|here]], for reference). This makes it easier for organizational purposes, and in the event ''if'' we ban AI-generated work. 

I've left a message on Lee's talk page over a week ago and did not get a response or acknowledgement, so I'd like for the community's input for this inclusion to the policy. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 15:53, 26 January 2026 (UTC)

:I believe that existing Wikiversity policies are sufficient. Authors are responsible for the accuracy and usefulness of the content that is published. This policy covers AI-generated content that is: 1) carefully reviewed by the author publishing it, and 2) the source is noted.   [[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]] ([[User talk:Lbeaumont|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Lbeaumont|contribs]]) 19:38, 27 January 2026 (UTC)
::A small reference for pages that are substantially filled with Chat-GPT entries, like [[Real Good Religion]], [[Attributing Blame]], [[Fostering Curiosity]], are not sufficient IMO and a project box would be the best indicator that a page is AI-generated (especially when there is a mixture of human created content AND AI-generated content, as present in a lot of your pages). This is useful, especially considering the notable issues with AI (including hallucinations and fabrication of details), so viewers and support staff are aware. These small notes left on the pages are not as easily viewable as a project box or banner would be. I really don't see the issue with a clear-label guideline. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 22:34, 27 January 2026 (UTC)
::{{ping|Lbeaumont}} I noticed your reversions [https://en.wikiversity.org/w/index.php?title=Exploring_Existential_Concerns&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2788278 here] &amp; [https://en.wikiversity.org/w/index.php?title=Subjective_Awareness&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2788257 here]. I'd prefer to have a clean conversation regarding this proposition. Please voice your concerns here. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 15:53, 28 January 2026 (UTC)
:::Regarding Subjective Awareness, I distinctly recall the effort I went to to write that the old-fashioned way. It is true that ChatGPT assisted me in augmenting the list of words suggested as candidate subjective states. This is a small section of the course, is clearly marked, and makes no factual claim. Marking the entire course as AI-generated is misleading. I would have made these comments when I reverted your edit; however, the revert button does not provide that opportunity.
:::Regarding the Exploring Existential Concerns course, please note this was adapted from my EmotionalCompetency.com website, which predates the availability of LLMs. The course does include two links, clearly labeled as ChatGPT-generated. Again, marking the entire course as AI-generated is misleading.
:::On a broader issue, I don't consider your opinions to have established a carefully debated and adopted Wikiversity policy. You went ahead and modified many of my courses over my clearly stated objections. Please let this issue play out more completely before editing my courses further. Thanks.   [[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]] ([[User talk:Lbeaumont|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Lbeaumont|contribs]]) 15:11, 29 January 2026 (UTC)
::::Understood, and I respect your position. I apologize if my edits were seen as overarching. We could change the project box to &quot;a portion of this resource was generated by AI&quot;, or something along those lines. Feel free to revert my changes where you see fit, and I encourage more users to provide their input. EDIT: I've made changes to the template to indicate that a portion of the content has been generated from an LLM. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 15:50, 29 January 2026 (UTC)
:::::Thanks for this reply. The new banner is unduly large and alarming. There is no need for alarm here. The use of AI is not harmful per se. Like any technology, it can be used to help or to harm. I take care to craft prompts carefully, point the LMM to reliable source materials, and to carefully read and verify the generated text before I publish it. This is all in keeping with long-established Wikiversity policy. We don't want to use a  [[w:One-drop_rule|one-drop rule]] here or cause a [[w:Satanic_panic|satanic panic]]. We can learn our lessons from history here. I don't see any pedagogical reason for establishing a classification of &quot;AI generated&quot;, but if there is a consensus that it is needed, perhaps it can be handled as just another category that learning resources can be assigned to. I would rather focus on identifying any errors in factual claims than on casting pejorative bias toward AI-generated content. An essay on the best practices for using LMM on Wikiveristy would be welcome.   [[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]] ([[User talk:Lbeaumont|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Lbeaumont|contribs]]) 15:58, 30 January 2026 (UTC)
::::::The new banner mimics the banner that is available on the English Wikibooks (see [[b:Template:AI-generated]] &amp; [[b:Template:Uses AI]]), so my revisions aren't unique in this aspect. At this point, I'd welcome other peoples' inputs. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 19:40, 30 January 2026 (UTC)

== How do I start making pages? ==
Is there a notability guideline for Wikiversity? What is the sourcing policy for information? What is the Manual of Style? What kind of educational content qualifies for Wikiversity? All the introduction pages are a bit unclear. 
[[User:VidanaliK|VidanaliK]] ([[User talk:VidanaliK|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/VidanaliK|contribs]]) 02:25, 28 January 2026 (UTC)

:{{ping|VidanaliK}} Welcome to Wikiversity! I've left you a welcome message on your talk page. That should help you out. Make sure to especially look at [[Wikiversity:Introduction]]. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 03:11, 28 January 2026 (UTC)
::It says that I can't post more pages because I have apparently exceeded the new page limit. How long does it take before that new page limit expires? [[User:VidanaliK|VidanaliK]] ([[User talk:VidanaliK|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/VidanaliK|contribs]]) 16:57, 28 January 2026 (UTC)
:::This is a restriction for new users so that Wikiversity is not hit with massive spam. As for when this limit will expire, it should be a few days or after a certain number of edits. It's easy to overcome, though I do not have the exact numbers atm. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 15:08, 29 January 2026 (UTC)
::::OK, I think I got past the limit. [[User:VidanaliK|VidanaliK]] ([[User talk:VidanaliK|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/VidanaliK|contribs]]) 17:21, 29 January 2026 (UTC)
==Why does it feel like Wikiversity is no longer really active anymore?==
I've been looking at recent changes, and both today and yesterday there haven't been many changes that I haven't made; it feels like walking through a ghost town, is this just me or is Wikiversity not really active anymore? [[User:VidanaliK|VidanaliK]] ([[User talk:VidanaliK|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/VidanaliK|contribs]]) 03:54, 30 January 2026 (UTC)

:There is fewer people editing these days compared to the past. Many newcomers tend to edit in Wikipedia instead. [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 06:39, 30 January 2026 (UTC)
:It’s a little slow, but I’m happy to know that Wikiversity is a place that I think should provide value even if the activity of editors fluctuates. If it’s any consolation your edits may be encouraging for some anonymous newcomer to start edits on their own! I think it’s hard to build community when there is such a wide variety of interests and a smaller starting userbase. Also sometimes the getting into a particular topic that already exists can be intimidating because some relics (large portals, school, categories, etc.) have intricate, unique and generally messy levels of organization. [[User:IanVG|IanVG]] ([[User talk:IanVG|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/IanVG|contribs]]) 22:16, 9 March 2026 (UTC)
:I'd say it comes down to working hard for Wikiversity, basically if somebody or a group of people will start presenting good ideas and they turn out to be provably stable.
:I even asked Google's &quot;AI Mode&quot;, what is Wikiversity famous for? Unfortunately it could not answer that.
:Simply, we have not made Wikiversity famous by presenting really provable stable ideas yet. My hope is that this time might come. Perhaps even this year 2026!
:Hope dies last. [[User:ThinkingScience|ThinkingScience]] ([[User talk:ThinkingScience|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ThinkingScience|contribs]]) 10:12, 27 April 2026 (UTC)

== Inactivity policy for Curators ==

I was wondering if there is a specific inactivity polity for curators (semi-admins) as I am pretty sure the global policy does not apply to them as they are not ''fully'' sysops. [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 03:20, 15 February 2026 (UTC)

:Unfortunately, I don't see an inactivity policy, but if we were to create such a new policy for curators, it should be the same for custodians (administrators). [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 18:45, 15 February 2026 (UTC)
::@[[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] There is currently none, that I could find, for custodians either. [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 00:47, 17 February 2026 (UTC)
:::I think we should propose a local inactivity policy for custodians (and by extension, curators), which should be at least one year without any edits ''and'' logged actions. However, I don't know which page should it be when the inactivity removal procedure starts. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 00:53, 17 February 2026 (UTC)
::::@[[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] In theory, there should be a section added at [[WV:Candidates for custodianship]] [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 00:55, 17 February 2026 (UTC)
::::: To be consistent with the [[meta:Admin activity review|global period of 2 years inactivity]] for en.wv  [[Wikiversity:Custodianship#Notes|Custodians]] and [[Wikiversity:Bureaucratship#How are bureaucrats removed?|Bureaucrats]] we could add something like this to [[Wikiversity:Curators]]:
::::::The maximum time period of inactivity &lt;u&gt;without community review&lt;/u&gt; for curators is two years (consistent with  the [[:meta:Category:Global policies|global policy]] described at [[meta:Admin activity review|Admin activity review]] which applies for [[Wikiversity:Custodianship#Notes|Custodians]] and [[Wikiversity:Bureaucratship|Bureaucrats]]). After that time a custodian will remove the rights.
::::: -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 10:51, 27 March 2026 (UTC)
:::::Yup, I agree with Jtneill, there is a policy proposal for Wikiversity:Curators, where it should be logically deployed. The question is if we are ready to aprove the policy. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 17:43, 17 April 2026 (UTC)
:::::: I agree, but we should notify the colloquium about inactive curators, just like a steward would do for inactive custodians and bureaucrats per [[:m:Admin activity review|AAR]]. What is the minimum timeframe an inactive curator should receive so they can respond they would keep their rights? [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 17:49, 17 April 2026 (UTC)
:I incorporated these suggestions into the proposed curators policy. Please review/comment/improve. Summary: 2 years, notify curator's user page, then remove rights after 1 month: [[Wikiversity:Curators#Inactivity]]. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 08:59, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
:: @[[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] I created [[Template:Inactive curator]] for this. Feel free to make any changes or improvements. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 14:29, 24 April 2026 (UTC)

== [[Wikiversity:Artificial intelligence]] to become an official policy ==
{{Archive top|After running for a week, there is consensus, alongside comments, for [[Wikiversity:Artificial intelligence]] to be implemented as an official policy. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 23:27, 17 April 2026 (UTC)}}
With the introduction of AI-material, and some material just plain disruptive, its imperative that Wikiversity catches up with its sister projects and implements an official AI policy that we can work with. The recent issue of [[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]]'s 50+ articles that contain significantly large AI-generated material has made me came to the Colloquium. This user has also been removing the [[Template:AI-generated]] template from their pages, calling it &quot;misleading&quot;, &quot;alarmist&quot;, and &quot;pejorative&quot; - which is all just simply nonsensical rationales. Not to even mention this user's contributions to the English Wikipedia have been [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Inner_Development_Goals contested] and [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Multipolar_trap removed] a couple of times (for being low-quality and clearly LLM-generated), highlighting the need for an actual policy to be implemented here on Wikiversity. I would like to ping {{ping|Juandev}} and {{ping|Jtneill}} for their thoughts as well, since I'd like this to be implemented as soon as possible. 

Wikiversity has a significant issue with implementing anti-disruptive measures, hence why we have received numerous complaints as a community about our quality. I originally was reverting the removal of the templates, but realized that this is still a proposed policy, which it shouldn't be anymore. It should be a recognized Wikiversity policy. 14:54, 10 March 2026 (UTC) —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 14:54, 10 March 2026 (UTC)

:@[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] '''I agree''' that the draft, should become official policy. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 17:00, 10 March 2026 (UTC)
:I provided a detailed response at: [[Wikiversity talk:Artificial intelligence#Evolving a Wikiversity policy on AI]]
:I will appreaciate it if you consder that carefully. [[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]] ([[User talk:Lbeaumont|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Lbeaumont|contribs]]) 22:49, 10 March 2026 (UTC)
:Agree it should become official Wikiversity policy on the condition &lt;u&gt;that point point 5 is about [significant/substantial] LLM-generated text specifically&lt;/u&gt;. Not a good idea to overuse it, it should be added when there is substantial AI-generated text on the page, not for other cases. [[User:Prototyperspective|Prototyperspective]] ([[User talk:Prototyperspective|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Prototyperspective|contribs]]) 12:37, 11 March 2026 (UTC)
:What policy is being debated? Is it the text on this page, which is pointed to by the general banner, or the text at:   [[Wikiversity:Artificial intelligence|Wikiversity:Artificial intelligence,]]   which is pointed to by the specific banner? Let's begin with coherence on the text being debated. Thanks!  [[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]] ([[User talk:Lbeaumont|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Lbeaumont|contribs]]) 11:49, 17 March 2026 (UTC)
::@[[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]] This is a call for approval of the new Wikiversity policy. You expressed your opinion [[Wikiversity talk:Artificial intelligence#Evolving a Wikiversity policy on AI|on the talk page of the proposal]], I replied to you and await your response.When creating policies, it is necessary to propose specific solutions. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 14:12, 17 March 2026 (UTC)
:::Toward a Justified and Parsimonious AI Policy 
:::As we collaborate to develop a consensus policy on the use of Large Language Models, it is wise to begin by considering the needs of the various stakeholders to the policy.
:::The stakeholders are:
:::1)     The users, 
:::2)     The source providers, and
:::3)     The editors
:::There may also be others with a minor stake in this policy, including the population at large.
:::The many needs of the users are currently addressed by long-standing [[Wikiversity:Policies|Wikiversity policies]], so we can focus on what, if any, additional needs arise as LLMs are deployed. 
:::As always, users need assurance that propositional statements are accurate. This is covered by the existing policy on [[Wikiversity:Verifiability|verifiably]]. In addition, it is expected by both the users and those that provide materials used as sources for the text are [[Wikiversity:Cite sources|accurately attributed]]. This is also covered by [[Wikiversity:Cite sources|existing policies]].
:::To respect the time and effort of editors, a parsimonious policy will unburden editors from costly requirements that exceed benefits to the users.
:::Finally, it is important to recognize that because attention is our most valuable seizing attention unnecessarily is a form of theft. 
:::The following proposed policy statement results from these considerations:
:::Recommended Policy statement:
:::·       Editors [[Wikiversity:Verifiability|verify the accuracy]] of propositional statements, regardless of the source.
:::·       Editors [[Wikiversity:Cite sources|attribute the source]] of propositional statements. In the case of LLM, cite the LLM model and the prompt used.
:::·       Use of various available templates to mark the use of LLM are optional. Templates that are flexible in noting the type and extend of LLM usage are preferred. Templates that avoid unduly distracting or alarming the user are preferred. [[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]] ([[User talk:Lbeaumont|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Lbeaumont|contribs]]) 19:56, 19 March 2026 (UTC)
::::Do we discuss here or there? I have replied you there as your proposal is about that policy so it is tradition to discuss it at the affected talk page. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 21:59, 19 March 2026 (UTC)
: {{support}} Thanks for the proposed policy development and discussion; also note proposed policy talk page discussion: [[Wikiversity talk:Artificial intelligence]] -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 12:05, 24 March 2026 (UTC)
::I think the Wikiversity AI policy shall be official. – [[User:RestoreAccess111|RestoreAccess111]] &lt;sup style=&quot;font-family:Arimo, Arial;&quot;&gt;[[User talk:RestoreAccess111|Talk!]]&lt;/sup&gt; &lt;sup style=&quot;font-family:Times New Roman, Tinos;&quot;&gt;[[Special:Contributions/RestoreAccess111|Watch!]]&lt;/sup&gt; 06:11, 13 April 2026 (UTC)
{{archive bottom}}

== New titles for user right nominations ==
&lt;div class=&quot;cd-moveMark&quot;&gt;''Moved from [[Wikiversity talk:Candidates for Custodianship#New titles for user right nominations]].  [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 23:20, 17 April 2026 (UTC)''&lt;/div&gt;

I would like to propose the following retitles should a user be nominated for any of the following user rights:
* Curator: Candidates for Curatorship
* Bureaucrat: Candidates for Bureaucratship
The reason is that many curator (and probably bureaucrat) requests have run solely under {{tq|Candidates for Custodianship}}, but that title might sound misleading (especially in regards to the permission a user is requesting). CheckUser and Oversight (suppressor) are not included above since no user was nominated for these sensitive permissions, probably. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 01:30, 19 March 2026 (UTC)

:And it's not that when someone at the beginning misplaced the request, no one thought to move it and the others copied it. Even today, it would be possible to simply take it all and move it. Otherwise, for me, the more fundamental problem is that there is [[Wikiversity:Curators|no approved policy for curators]] than where the requests are based. Curators then operate in a certain vacuum and if one of them &quot;breaks out of the chain&quot;, the average user doesn't have many transparent tools to deal with it, because there is no policy. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 07:02, 19 March 2026 (UTC)
::I am not talking about the curator page (policy proposal). [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 19:08, 21 March 2026 (UTC)
: @[[User:Juandev|Juandev]] I'll see if I can do an overhaul of [[Wikiversity:Candidates for Custodianship]], just like I recently did with the Requests for adminship page on English Wikiquote. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 22:17, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
:Yes, great idea - ideally there will be separate &quot;Candidates for ...&quot; pages for each user right group. The most important for now is to separate curator and custodian pages as CN suggests. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 11:39, 1 May 2026 (UTC)
:So maybe I previously misunderstood. Are you proposing separated pages for nominations (i.e. [[Wikiversity:Candidates for Curatorship]], [[Wikiversity:Candidates for Bureaucratship]], [[Wikiversity:Candidates for Custodianship]])? [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 12:30, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
:: Yes. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 13:33, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
:::I see, then I am fine with that @[[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]]. Sorry for misunderstanding. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 18:35, 9 May 2026 (UTC)

== Technical Request:  Courtesy link.. ==

[[Template_talk:Information#Background_must_have_color_defined_as_well]] [[User:ShakespeareFan00|ShakespeareFan00]] ([[User talk:ShakespeareFan00|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ShakespeareFan00|contribs]]) 11:43, 20 March 2026 (UTC)
: I can't edit the template directly as it need an sysop/interface admin to do it. [[User:ShakespeareFan00|ShakespeareFan00]] ([[User talk:ShakespeareFan00|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ShakespeareFan00|contribs]]) 11:43, 20 March 2026 (UTC)
:: Also if the Template field of - https://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Special:LintErrors/night-mode-unaware-background-color is examined, there is poential for an admin to clear a substantial proportion of these by implmenting a simmilar fix to the indciated templates (and underlying stylesheets). It would be nice to clear things like Project box and others, as many other templates (and thus pages depend on them.) :)
[[User:ShakespeareFan00|ShakespeareFan00]] ([[User talk:ShakespeareFan00|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ShakespeareFan00|contribs]]) 11:43, 20 March 2026 (UTC)

:I think it would be best to grant you interface admin rights for a short period of time to make these changes. However, I still have doubts about the suitability of this solution, which may cause other problems and no one has explained to me why dark mode has to be implemented this way @[[User:ShakespeareFan00|ShakespeareFan00]]. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 20:43, 20 March 2026 (UTC)

: I would have reservations about holding such rights, which is why I was trying to do what I could without needing them. However if it is the only way to get the required changes made, I would suggest asking on Wikipedia to find technical editors, willing to undertake the changes needed. [[User:ShakespeareFan00|ShakespeareFan00]] ([[User talk:ShakespeareFan00|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ShakespeareFan00|contribs]]) 09:32, 21 March 2026 (UTC)

== WikiEducator has closed ==

Some of you may know of a similar project to Wikiversity, called [https://wikieducator.org/Main_Page WikiEducator], championed by [https://oerfoundation.org/about/staff/wayne-mackintosh/ Wayne Mackintosh][https://www.linkedin.com/posts/waynemackintosh_important-notice-about-the-oer-foundation-activity-7405113051688931329-Nhm9/][https://openeducation.nz/killed-not-starved/].

It seems [https://openeducation.nz/terminating-oer-foundation their foundation has closed] and they are no longer operating.

They had done quite a bit of outreach (e.g., in the Pacific and Africa) to get educators using wiki.

The WikiEducator content is still available in MediaWiki - and potentially could be imported to Wikiversity ([https://wikieducator.org/WikiEducator:Copyrights CC-BY-SA] is the default license).

The closing of WikiEducator arguably makes the nurturing of Wikiversity even more important.

-- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 02:09, 1 April 2026 (UTC)

:I was never active there. If anyone has an account or is otherwise in contact, we may want to copy relevant information here or even at [[:outreach:]]. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 04:46, 1 April 2026 (UTC)

:: I reached out to [[User:Mackiwg~enwikiversity|Wayne]] in January, and he responded briefly but positively (while travelling).  I wrote to the low-traffic wikieducator mailing list today and got a nice [https://groups.google.com/g/wikieducator/c/r_yIyUw6ZIA reply] from [[user:SteveFoerster|Steve Foerster]] who's interested in helping. If we can figure out a migration path it would be great to adopt at least the main namespace pages here.  
:: A few questions that come to mind: 
:: - would people want to create matching user accounts
:: - are there any namespaces (user/talk?) that should not be moved over
:: We could look at how this was done for the [[m:Wikivoyage/Migration]] wikivoyage migration. &lt;span style=&quot;padding:0 2px 0 2px;background-color:white;color:#bbb;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash;[[User:Sj|SJ]][[User Talk:Sj|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#ff9900;&quot;&gt;+&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 04:27, 1 May 2026 (UTC)
:::That's fantastic, SJ, that you've reached out and that Wayne, Steve, and Jim are receptive—and that you can help! -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 11:52, 1 May 2026 (UTC)

== Wikinews is ending ==

Apparently mainly due to low editorial activity, low public interest, but also failure to achieve the goals from the proposal for the creation of the project, the Wikinews project is ending after years of discussions ([[Meta:Proposal for Closing Wikinews|some reading]]).

And I would be interested to see how Wikiversity is doing in the monitored metrics. We probably have more editors than Wikinews had, but what about consumers and achieving the goals? [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 19:14, 1 April 2026 (UTC)

:Wikiversity's biggest issue in recent times was the hosting of low-quality, trash content. Thankfully we've done a great job in removing pseudoscience and other embarrassingly trash content (Wikidebates, for example), but the biggest concern moving forward is proper maintenance IMO. I've caught several pseudoscience pages being created within the last few months that could easily have flown under the radar (ex, [[The Kelemen Dilemma: Causal Collapse and Axiomatic Instability]]), so I'd urge our custodians/curators to be on the lookout for this type of content. Usually an AI-overview can point this type of content out relatively well.
:In terms of visibility, I believe Wikiversity is a high-traffic project. I remember my [[Mathematical Properties]] showing up on the first page of Google when searching up &quot;math properties&quot; for the longest time (and is still showing up in the first page 'till this day!). Besides, Wikinews hosted a lot of short-term content (the nature of news articles), while Wikiversity hosts content that can still be useful a decade later (ex, [[A Reader's Guide to Annotation]]). 
:I think we are on a better path than we were a few months ago, and I do want to thank everyone here who has been helping out with maintaining our website! —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 20:48, 1 April 2026 (UTC)
:For what it's worth, the group that did that study has since disbanded, so no one is monitoring the other sister projects in the same way. Additionally, Wikinews had some catastrophic server issues due to the maintenance of [[:m:Extension:DynamicPageList]] which don't apply here. Your questions are still worth addressing, but I just wanted to cut off any concern at the pass about Wikiversity being in the same precarious situation. Wikiversity is definitely the biggest &quot;lagging behind&quot; or &quot;failure&quot; project now that Wikinews is being shuttered, but I don't see any near- or medium-term pathway to closing Wikiversity. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 00:46, 2 April 2026 (UTC)

:[[w:en:Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2026-03-31/News and notes|Entirety of Wikinews to be shut down]] (Wikipedia Signpost) -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 02:03, 11 April 2026 (UTC)

== Action Required: Update templates/modules for electoral maps (Migrating from P1846 to P14226) ==

Hello everyone,

This is a notice regarding an ongoing data migration on Wikidata that may affect your election-related templates and Lua modules (such as &lt;code&gt;Module:Itemgroup/list&lt;/code&gt;).

'''The Change:'''&lt;br /&gt;
Currently, many templates pull electoral maps from Wikidata using the property [[:d:Property:P1846|P1846]], combined with the qualifier [[:d:Property:P180|P180]]: [[:d:Q19571328|Q19571328]]. 

We are migrating this data (across roughly 4,000 items) to a newly created, dedicated property: '''[[:d:Property:P14226|P14226]]'''.

'''What You Need To Do:'''&lt;br /&gt;
To ensure your templates and infoboxes do not break or lose their maps, please update your local code to fetch data from [[:d:Property:P14226|P14226]] instead of the old [[:d:Property:P1846|P1846]] + [[:d:Property:P180|P180]] structure. A [[m:Wikidata/Property Migration: P1846 to P14226/List|list of pages]] was generated using Wikimedia Global Search.

'''Deadline:'''&lt;br /&gt;
We are temporarily retaining the old data on [[:d:Property:P1846|P1846]] to allow for a smooth transition. However, to complete the data cleanup on Wikidata, the old [[:d:Property:P1846|P1846]] statements will be removed after '''May 1, 2026'''. Please update your modules and templates before this date to prevent any disruption to your wiki's election articles.

Let us know if you have any questions or need assistance with the query logic. Thank you for your help! [[User:ZI Jony|ZI Jony]] using [[User:MediaWiki message delivery|MediaWiki message delivery]] ([[User talk:MediaWiki message delivery|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/MediaWiki message delivery|contribs]]) 17:11, 3 April 2026 (UTC)
&lt;!-- Message sent by User:ZI Jony@metawiki using the list at https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Distribution_list/Non-Technical_Village_Pumps_distribution_list&amp;oldid=29941252 --&gt;
:I didnt find such properties, so we are probably fine. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 21:00, 12 April 2026 (UTC)
:: +1 (agreed). [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 22:19, 12 April 2026 (UTC)

== Enable the abuse filter block action? ==

In light of [[Special:AbuseLog/80178]] (coupon spam), I would like to propose enabling the block action for the abuse filter. Only custodians will be able to enable and disable that action on an abuse filter, and it is useful to block ongoing vandalism. Thoughts? [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 19:12, 13 April 2026 (UTC)

:Seems like a good idea, almost all of the users which create such pages are spambots so this shouldn’t be a problem. [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 23:41, 13 April 2026 (UTC)
:Can you explain some more (I am new to abuse filters)? It looks like the attempted edit was prevented? Which abuse filter?
:Note on your suggestion, have also reactivated Antispam Filter 12 - see [[WV:RCA]]. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 10:45, 15 April 2026 (UTC)
:: I am proposing that we activate the abuse filter block action, which if a user triggers an abuse filter, it would actually block the user in question - the same mechanism that a custodian would use to block users. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 13:11, 15 April 2026 (UTC)
:::OK, thankyou, that makes sense. And, reviewing the abuse filter 12 log, it would be helpful because it would prevent the need for manual blocking. But I don't see a setting for autoblocking? -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 23:14, 15 April 2026 (UTC)
:::: I think it probably adds an autoblock. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 00:43, 16 April 2026 (UTC)
: [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] and [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]], given that a little bit more than a week has passed and there is minimal consensus to activate the abuse filter block action, I filed [[phab:T424053]]. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 15:05, 21 April 2026 (UTC)
::Thank-you for doing this. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 08:03, 24 April 2026 (UTC)

== Advice needed: A Neurodiversity-inspired Idea/observation ==

If I want the greatest participation of others to &quot;provide constructive criticism to my idea&quot; or to &quot;shoot down my idea&quot; or &quot;idea&quot;.

What I've called it so far is &quot;The Neurodiversity-inspired Idea&quot;. At other times I used more sensationalist wording but here on Wikiversity I don't dare do that. I actually woke up with thinking about putting this into my userspace draft: &quot;Personal Observations Made By Meeting Autistic and Non-Autistic Adults&quot;.

My ultimate goal is to stop blathering about my &quot;idea&quot; to friend and family without feeling my &quot;methodology&quot; is going into any progressive direction whatsoever. My latest encounter was somewhat constructive though. A friend of a friend who worked with people presenting ideas in attempting to getting grants. I don't want a grant. I just want to figure out how I can express my &quot;idea&quot; in a way so that I can more clearly figure out what flaws it got.

At the same time I tend to overthink. If anyone thinks etherpad might be a good place and considering Wikimedia already got an etherpad at https://etherpad.wikimedia.org/ if anyone feels like they know me better in the future feel free to suggest a &quot;session&quot; on etherpad.

'''If I don't receive a reply to this in 1 week's time I will begin to explore this &quot;idea&quot; into my userspace''' unless you replied and refrained me from doing so, of course. Then maybe after &quot;developing it there&quot; I might reference it to you another future time here in the Colloquium, with my &quot;idea&quot; still in my userspace draft. This &quot;idea&quot; is sort of a burden, I'm happy I've made the choice to get rid of it and hopefully move on with my life, unless there is something to this &quot;idea&quot;. 

My failure is probably evident: I feel I haven't told you anything. Same happened to when I talked to friends and family. In danger of overthinking it further I'll publish this right now. I need to &quot;keep it together&quot; [[User:ThinkingScience|ThinkingScience]] ([[User talk:ThinkingScience|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ThinkingScience|contribs]]) 10:36, 16 April 2026 (UTC)

:Good on you putting it out there ... and hitting publish :). I'd say go for it (no need to wait), give birth to your idea and share about it here and elsewhere. Let it take shape and see where it might go. In many ways, this is exactly what an open collaborative learning community should be doing. Others might not know well how to respond, so perhaps consider creating some questions to accompany the idea. Sincerely, James -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 11:21, 16 April 2026 (UTC)
::Thank you for encouraging me in developing the idea.
::I have created a &quot;questions&quot; section in the draft which is visible in the table of contents now. My brain was &quot;frozen&quot; today metaphorically speaking in that I felt I had like a &quot;writer's block&quot; so the draft has more &quot;AI/LLM&quot; content than before. I used the LLM for generating questions. The answers are so far human-only.
::I've also created a subsection where I could add the prompts that made the LLM generate the questions. That could help people make better prompts perhaps. I've described what it is about inside of it and there are some chaotically written notes.
::[[Draft:The_Neurodiversity-inspired_Idea#Questions_that_might_encourage_the_development_of_this_idea_and_its_methodology]]
::My draft is missing stuff. Any questions that you contribute to my draft will probably help me and if I don't understand the questions I'll probably notify you and also at the same time &quot;feed them&quot; to an LLM and ask in my input like &quot;explain in simple words what this question means, what is it searching for?&quot; etc. while I wait for an answer. If you have any more feedback please give it to me here or on the Draft page, its talk page or my user talk page. Thank you for helping me! [[User:ThinkingScience|ThinkingScience]] ([[User talk:ThinkingScience|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ThinkingScience|contribs]]) 21:20, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
::Today I woke up with not only thinking about supplying questions along with the &quot;idea&quot; but also answers. ie. Is it possible to &quot;test&quot; this idea? Is it possible to create one or multiple hypotheses based on this &quot;idea&quot;?(etc.) I've thought about this before in this &quot;idea&quot; but since I'm beginning to add to Wikiversity what was previously 'locked in my mind' it's also easier for me to see what I've done so far. Thank you for this comment! [[User:ThinkingScience|ThinkingScience]] ([[User talk:ThinkingScience|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ThinkingScience|contribs]]) 09:11, 23 April 2026 (UTC)
:May I think that you should not add deadlines ; being read, and rising interest for collaboration, or even simply for exchange of thoughts, such an effective meeting event loads a huge bunch of unprobability, which time can help to… somehow diminish. Maybe, I would advice you having a central place for developping your ideas, your needs, your advances, maybe a page in your own user zone, and from time to time, depending your feeling, it could be every trimester or so, or more frequently, you could write a short account of progress (or even of no progress), or a call for participation, in such a place as this present one ; I think that will increase much exposure of your projet. Maybe also, if you can find a project name, not necessarily very meaningfull by itseilf (at least it will gain signification with time, as your project develops), that will serve as a kind-of hook, and make your announcement titles more visible. Best regards (and my excuses for my poor command of English, which seems to be unplease an anti-abuse filter, &quot;Questionable Language (profanity)&quot;, which I don't understand…). My few cents. --  [[User:Eric.LEWIN|Eric.LEWIN]] ([[User talk:Eric.LEWIN|discussion]] • [[Special:Contributions/Eric.LEWIN|contributions]]) 10:06, 17 April 2026 (UTC)
::Sorry about the false positive on the profanity filter - I've fixed it. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 10:26, 17 April 2026 (UTC)
:::&quot;May I think that you should not add deadlines ; being read, and rising interest for collaboration, or even simply for exchange of thoughts, such an effective meeting event loads a huge bunch of unprobability, which time can help to… somehow diminish.&quot;
::Thank you Eric for this comment. Trust in time is how I interpret it. I should not feel like I need to be in a hurry. I'll try to give this time. Thank you!
:::&quot;Maybe, I would advice you having a central place for developping your ideas, your needs, your advances, maybe a page in your own user zone, and from time to time, depending your feeling, it could be every trimester or so, or more frequently, you could write a short account of progress (or even of no progress), or a call for participation, in such a place as this present one ; I think that will increase much exposure of your projet.&quot;
::A central place for developing or making &quot;project notes&quot; regarding the Neurodiversity idea on my userspace, I might need that, like a diary or &quot;project notes&quot; of the Neurodiversity idea similar to my course notes regarding my experience with Coursera.
::Any actions I take are going to be related to my Userspace from now on but I'll also update the draft when necessary. Now in the beginning I might be working daily to once every 3 days on both the draft and the daily notes I plan to make.
:::&quot;Maybe also, if you can find a project name, not necessarily very meaningfull by itseilf (at least it will gain signification with time, as your project develops), that will serve as a kind-of hook, and make your announcement titles more visible.&quot;
::Thank you for the advice. I was brainstorming yesterday about it. I concluded that since I've not yet developed a methodology that adheres to &quot;Do no harm&quot; and this is my first time working my &quot;idea&quot; into a way that is compatible with how projects develop on English Wikiversity this is new to me. My methodology isn't developed and therefore trying to get attention to my project through a name can wait. Yesterday I figured out a silly title that has nothing to do with the project: &quot;Planetary Awareness Potato Cabbage Rolls&quot; or something like that. Google output read that no such thing exists so I wanted it mainly to be unique. I don't want to raise attention that I'm unsure whether I'll actually be capable of developing a methodology for but project notes is my best bet so far in tracking my progress. Every day I think about this &quot;idea&quot; but I need to improve the important parts.
:::&quot;Best regards (and my excuses for my poor command of English, which seems to be unplease an anti-abuse filter, &quot;Questionable Language (profanity)&quot;, which I don't understand…). My few cents.&quot;
::You added great points and I felt that I was helped by you! I encourage you to post again and I can understand that interacting with any kind of automated filter can be discouraging and can be for me too! Thank you for giving me feedback! [[User:ThinkingScience|ThinkingScience]] ([[User talk:ThinkingScience|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ThinkingScience|contribs]]) 16:01, 18 April 2026 (UTC)

== Add some user rights to the curator user group? ==

By default, only custodians have the ability to mark new pages as patrolled (&lt;code&gt;patrol&lt;/code&gt;) and have their own page creations automatically marked as patrolled (&lt;code&gt;autopatrol&lt;/code&gt;). I am proposing both of the following:
* Curators can mark new pages as patrolled, helping on reducing the backlog of new, unpatrolled pages.
* New pages made by curators will be automatically marked as patrolled by the MediaWiki software.
Before we implement this, I would suggest implementing a proposed guideline for marking new pages as patrolled for curators and custodians.

Thoughts? [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 16:32, 17 April 2026 (UTC)

:Agree, &lt;s&gt;also can we also allow curators to undelete pages since they already have the rights to delete them?&lt;/s&gt; [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 02:54, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
::I think the requirement that undelete NOT be included came from above (meta / stewards / central office). Having access to the undelete page gives access to information that is restricted by their policies to admins (custodians and bureaucrats). -- [[User:Dave Braunschweig|Dave Braunschweig]] ([[User talk:Dave Braunschweig|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dave Braunschweig|contribs]]) 20:12, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
::: [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]], unless if requests for curator and custodian should be RfA-like processes (that is, including voting and comments), then I have to agree with Dave above. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 22:03, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
::::Oh, I didn’t realise that. Withdrawing my comment.. [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 00:08, 19 April 2026 (UTC)
:{{support}} Seems reasonable and would reduce overhead. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 14:35, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
:'''Agree''', implement it also to [[Wikiversity:Curators]] proposal please. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 17:11, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
: I went ahead and filed [[phab:T424445]]. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 15:39, 26 April 2026 (UTC)

== [[Wikiversity:Curators|Curators and curators policy]] ==
{{archive top|There is strong consensus, so [[Wikiversity:Curators]] is now a policy. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 11:15, 9 May 2026 (UTC)}}
How does it come, that Wikiversity has curators, but Curators policy is still being proposed? How do the curators exists and act if the policy about them havent been approved yet? [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 18:33, 16 October 2025 (UTC)

:It looks as if it is not just curators. The policy on Bureaucratship is still being proposed as well. See [[Wikiversity:Bureaucratship]]. —[[User:RailwayEnthusiast2025|&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Verdana; color:#008000; text-shadow:gray 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em;&quot;&gt;RailwayEnthusiast2025&lt;/span&gt;]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:RailwayEnthusiast2025|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#59a53f&quot;&gt;''talk with me!''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 18:33, 27 October 2025 (UTC)

:I think its just the nature of a small WMF sister project in that there are lots of drafts, gaps, and potential improvements. In this case, these community would need to vote on those proposed Wikiversity staff policies if we think they're ready. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 02:08, 3 December 2025 (UTC)
:What? I thought you were getting it approved, Juandev... :) [[User:I&amp;#39;m Mr. Chris|I&amp;#39;m Mr. Chris]] ([[User talk:I&amp;#39;m Mr. Chris|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/I&amp;#39;m Mr. Chris|contribs]]) 14:20, 12 February 2026 (UTC)
::Yeah I think this one is important too and we need to aprove it too @[[User:I'm Mr. Chris|I'm Mr. Chris]]. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 15:56, 12 February 2026 (UTC)
:::I thinks its ready to made into a policy, it seems to be complete and informative about what the rights does and how to get it. [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 03:08, 15 February 2026 (UTC)
::::Agree -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 11:00, 27 March 2026 (UTC)

Let's make this the official discussion about adopting the [[Wikiversity:Curators|curators policy]] policy. Your comments are invited and welcome. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 08:40, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
: There were two similar Colloquium threads in separate places about the proposed curators policy. So I've moved them to be adjacent. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 12:42, 1 May 2026 (UTC)
{{archive bottom}}

== Wikiversity:Curators to become a policy ==
{{archive top|There is strong consensus, so [[Wikiversity:Curators]] is now a policy. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 11:16, 9 May 2026 (UTC)}}
I've looked at the discussions about the Curators policy, I've looked at the practices, and it seems to me that there is no dispute about the wording of the policy, and what's more, the community has been using this proposal as if it were an offical policy for several years. Therefore, I propose that [[Wikiversity:Curators]] become a policy. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 18:35, 18 April 2026 (UTC)

:{{support}} —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 18:54, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
:{{support}} —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 20:21, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
: {{support|Yes, please}}. Especially after when I and PieWriter proposed above, I agree. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 14:27, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
:: @[[User:Juandev|Juandev]]; as of now, curators now have the user rights &lt;code&gt;autopatrol&lt;/code&gt; and &lt;code&gt;patrol&lt;/code&gt;. Perhaps we should also include that in [[Wikiversity:Custodianship]]? [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 12:07, 30 April 2026 (UTC)
:::You meant [[Wikiversity:Curators]] @[[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]]? [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 12:15, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
:::: I agree that we must develop what rules curators should follow when marking new pages as patrolled; the same can be added for custodians since they can also mark new pages as patrolled. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 13:37, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
:::::I see, well I think you can just add this to the policy. It is not major change and it probably reflects actual practice or actual technical possibilities for those flags. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 09:20, 7 May 2026 (UTC)
:{{support}} -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 12:42, 1 May 2026 (UTC)
:{{Support}} per nom. [[User:PhilDaBirdMan|PhilDaBirdMan]] ([[User talk:PhilDaBirdMan|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PhilDaBirdMan|contribs]]) 13:32, 1 May 2026 (UTC)
{{Archive bottom}}

== Inactive curators ==

Hello, even though [[Wikiversity:Curators]] is not a policy yet, there are curators listed here that have been inactive for two years or more:
* {{user|Cody naccarato}} (last edit on 13 Dec 2022, last logged action on 10 Dec 2022)
* {{user|Praxidicae}} (last edit on 10 Sep 2022, last logged action on 12 Sep 2022)
[[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 21:14, 19 April 2026 (UTC)

:Yup, I would remove the rights. To get the rights back if theyll come back should not be a big deal. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 20:08, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
:: When they don't reply by May 19, feel free (or any custodian) to do so. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 00:28, 25 April 2026 (UTC)

== Is anyone interested in Neurodiversity? ==

Is anyone interested in Neurodiversity? Is there anyone here who is interested for Neurodiversity to be &quot;something more&quot; than it already is? Does anyone here consider Neurodiversity one of the &quot;harder topics&quot; to work on or discuss? Does anyone here have an opinion about the [[Neurodiversity Movement]]? So these questions don't appear like &quot;out of a vacuum&quot; I can tell you a bit about my background:

Many years ago I got a psychiatric diagnosis &quot;Asperger's&quot;. After I stepped out of the office and my Äsperger's was 'concluded', I stepped out into the street and thought my first negative thought(but the positive thought followed after). The thought was about concentration camps in the second world war and that the world seemed to be going into the direction of &quot;labeling others&quot;. I was unsure whether this was &quot;real science&quot; and sort of &quot;challenged myself&quot; to make up my own mind after meeting people that had been given this diagnosis. The more adults with this diagnosis I met the more I started seeing &quot;patterns&quot;.

Was it a coincidence that the first person with Asperger's I met reminded me about my father later after I had plenty of times of experience with interacting with him? None of the people I interacted with online through IRC text chat...I felt I got any clue about how &quot;their brains work&quot;. Only when I met one person from the Asperger's chat community in person we both realized that whatever we experienced was akin to the &quot;chaos theory&quot;. He told me about &quot;chaos theory&quot; while I didn't know even what that term meant but I guess I 'read between the lines'. My question that I linger on still today is &quot;did he understand about me what I think I understood about him?&quot;? That our brains had the same configuration? Most autistic adults who meet other autistic adults usually get disappointed. They think the diagnosis will help them meet somebody like themselves and then they realize the great diversity in the autistic spectrum created by Psychiatry.

I later stopped interacting with autistic communities that much, I felt that it did not benefit me. Also Neurodiversity's &quot;neurotypes&quot; interested me for a while until I realized I had &quot;misunderstood everything&quot; about them and how they are used in the Neurodiversity Movement or &quot;Neurodiversity community&quot; if that even can precisely be defined? I doubt it but if you want to contribute to the [[Neurodiversity Movement]]. My previous attempts failed as I got more and more confused. I think a community project needs a community. With a lack of that I don't think it is worth my time. If any of you would like to work on that project let me know on my talk page.

So I was kinda lost and was talking to my friend and psychologist and I realized if I never talk about my idea to anyone in a &quot;comprehensive way&quot; or show that it matters to me nothing is going to ever happen. So I started talking about my &quot;idea&quot; more. Nobody could understand the &quot;idea&quot; because I had not developed my skills regarding where to start...although the process had already started &quot;automatically&quot; and that's why I often think of &quot;well my brain sort of activated me&quot;. I don't feel like I did have a plan and this idea happened. It happened &quot;by itself&quot;. My brain reacted to what I was seeing in a video or stream.

I value interaction highly in this idea. I think it would be helpful to make a community of people who are not paranoid about stuff that can express itself like &quot;don't analyze me!&quot;, &quot;don't compare me to anyone!&quot;. 

On the contrary, more often than not those adults who were diagnosed were actually openly comparing themselves with each other and I think that is healthy in a &quot;science&quot; way if done the &quot;right way&quot; which probably means &quot;Do no harm&quot;.

I found video material is important but I'm very unsure if uploading own video material to Wikimedia Commons would constitute a &quot;reasonable&quot; use of the resources there. Maybe somebody here needs to ask more questions to me that I should answer before that happens. I also know the '''be bold''' so I could just do what I think might be ok. Though I work better in a group as long as I know what &quot;group configurations&quot; help me. This is in a non-profit way. Since the state supported me this might be a way I am trying to &quot;give back&quot; to the state and &quot;the world&quot;. May seem overly ambitious and crazy but this thing gives me energy. It gives me hope when trying to develop this idea. [[User:ThinkingScience|ThinkingScience]] ([[User talk:ThinkingScience|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ThinkingScience|contribs]]) 10:47, 23 April 2026 (UTC)

:Thanks for sharing. There is plenty of room for neurodiversity community learning. However, the challenge I think is that the intersection of those interested in (a) ND, and (b) English Wikiversity might be very small (e.g., 1!) at this point in time.
:But don't give up hope. For example, Wikipedia has many more ND-interested editors; maybe consider reaching out to see who might be interested:
:[[w:Category:Wikipedians interested in neurodiversity]]
:You could also start an equivalent category here:
:[[:Category:Wikiversitarians interested in neurodiversity]] -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 04:46, 6 May 2026 (UTC)

== Request for comment (global AI policy) ==

&lt;bdi lang=&quot;en&quot; dir=&quot;ltr&quot; class=&quot;mw-content-ltr&quot;&gt;A [[:m:Requests for comment/Artificial intelligence policy|request for comment]] is currently being held to decide on a global AI policy. {{int:Feedback-thanks-title}} [[User:MediaWiki message delivery|MediaWiki message delivery]] ([[User talk:MediaWiki message delivery|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/MediaWiki message delivery|contribs]]) 00:58, 26 April 2026 (UTC)&lt;/bdi&gt;
&lt;!-- Message sent by User:Codename Noreste@metawiki using the list at https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Distribution_list/Global_message_delivery&amp;oldid=30424282 --&gt;

== Coming over From wikinews ==

Any chance someone could help me if you are allowed to write news articles here since wikinews is going read only mode soon, thank you! [[User:BigKrow|BigKrow]] ([[User talk:BigKrow|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/BigKrow|contribs]]) 22:43, 1 May 2026 (UTC)

:The scope of Wikiversity is very broad and is basically about more-or-less any learning material. We have made it a point to not have duplicative content of other WMF projects, but since Wikinews is being shuttered, I personally am fine with writing news articles here. One thing that is not controversial at all is a learning resource &lt;em&gt;about&lt;/em&gt; how to write news: that could be hugely useful here and could involve the process of writing news stories to learn and to share back and forth with an editor or fact-checker. In fact, I'd support an entire namespace dedicated to keeping the notion of Wikinews alive here. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 23:38, 1 May 2026 (UTC)
::Thank you so much! How do I start? Cheers! @[[User:Koavf|Koavf]] [[User:BigKrow|BigKrow]] ([[User talk:BigKrow|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/BigKrow|contribs]]) 01:07, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
:::I think it's premature to start just making news articles en masse, but if you want to start discussing the topic of citizen journalism, you can do that now. [[:Category:Journalism]] already has some material, so you can start by seeing what we already have, how you can refine that, etc. You can definitely have learning resources with collaborators who want to learn about journalism ASAP. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 01:24, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
::::thanks. [[User:BigKrow|BigKrow]] ([[User talk:BigKrow|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/BigKrow|contribs]]) 01:38, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
::::If I could try and start one News Article could you please tell me how to go about it? Like what style of writing like Wikinews or something else? Thank you Justin! @[[User:Koavf|Koavf]] [[User:BigKrow|BigKrow]] ([[User talk:BigKrow|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/BigKrow|contribs]]) 01:48, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
:::::Honestly, there are very few policies and guidelines here. I think the best way to write a news story would be in a manner that is obvious and instructive. So, for instance, it's common to use the &quot;pyramid style&quot; when you're writing news, so if you were to write a story that makes it very clear that you are using that approach, that would be helpful. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 02:08, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
::::::cool thanks. [[User:BigKrow|BigKrow]] ([[User talk:BigKrow|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/BigKrow|contribs]]) 02:13, 2 May 2026 (UTC)

== Language learning  ==

toki! I am trying to add or see what the toki pona language learning stuff on here is but I don't see anything that is language learning for anything. [[User:Jan Imon|Jan Imon]] ([[User talk:Jan Imon|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Jan Imon|contribs]]) 23:13, 2 May 2026 (UTC) —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 17:29, 3 May 2026 (UTC)

:We have language materials ([[:Category:Languages]], [[World Languages]], [[Portal:Foreign Language Learning]], [[Portal:Multilingual Studies]]). They are not as developed as I think we would all like and there's not any coverage of Toki Pona, but in principle, we could and would like that. You can also see [[:b:Subject:Languages]] at our sister project Wikibooks. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 17:33, 3 May 2026 (UTC)

== Timeline format? ==

I’ve been working on the World War II articles, including the [[World War II/Timeline|timeline]], and is there a specific timeline format that should be used? Right now it’s just a table, and there’s no separation between different periods/phases of the war.

I don’t want to use [[mw:Extension:EasyTimeline]] because this will be displaying dates and not time periods. [[User:PhilDaBirdMan|PhilDaBirdMan]] ([[User talk:PhilDaBirdMan|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PhilDaBirdMan|contribs]]) 01:35, 4 May 2026 (UTC)

:I dont think we have a policy or guideline, how to format a timeline. But you may try to browes wikiversity by Google if someone was dealing with this in the past somewhow @[[User:PhilDaBirdMan|PhilDaBirdMan]]. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 12:23, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
::+1 - there's no specific guideline on how to format a timeline, it's really up to you. In my opinion I think the timeline is good. I'd personally bold the dates just to make it easier to separate it from the event description, but that's my personal 2 cents. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 14:18, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
:::I’ll probably remove links to the dates/years, they’re just Wikipedia pages that shouldn’t be over linked to. [[User:PhilDaBirdMan|PhilDaBirdMan]] ([[User talk:PhilDaBirdMan|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PhilDaBirdMan|contribs]]) 00:39, 6 May 2026 (UTC)

== Interface administrator for Codename Noreste ==

Hello, everyone. I am requesting interface administrator access on this wiki.

The main reasoning is that I would benefit from having the user right &lt;code&gt;editinterface&lt;/code&gt;, which would allow me to make dark mode changes to pages in the MediaWiki namespace, add &lt;code&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;&lt;div class=&quot;mw-parser-output&quot;&gt;&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/code&gt; to some interface pages using templates, handle interface-protected edit requests, and similar stuff. Additionally, I have some knowledge of CSS, and I would like to assist with modifying CSS pages whenever necessary, such as moving MediaWiki common.css code to TemplateStyles CSS pages.

I am requesting the maximum time that is allowed per the [[Wikiversity:Interface administrators|policy]], and I have 2FA enabled on my account. Thank you. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 00:55, 6 May 2026 (UTC)

*{{support}} Globally trusted user. ―[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:black&quot;&gt;v&lt;/span&gt;f&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 01:07, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
*{{support}} Trusted and knowledgeable. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 04:35, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
*{{support}} WV would benefit from this. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 08:32, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
*{{support}} --[[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 09:13, 7 May 2026 (UTC)

:{{Comment}} Could @[[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] delete [[MediaWiki:Gadget-WikiSign.js]], which was requested to be deleted @[[User:Koavf|Justin]], @[[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]], @[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]]? I dont think we need it. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 07:40, 9 May 2026 (UTC)
::Yes - clearly no longer used -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 10:18, 9 May 2026 (UTC)
::: I can't delete it because I don't have the required permissions to do so.
::: On a side note, if this project has a need for permanent interface administrators, I would suggest that we have a minimum of two IAs, similar to how there must be two CUs and/or suppressors (or none). Maybe Koavf can be a good candidate if I am elected for permanent interface adminship, and I believe that permission shouldn't be removed from someone's own account. Instead, a bureaucrat should do it. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 13:20, 9 May 2026 (UTC)
::::I am willing and happy to do it, unfortunately, we do not have an appetite for indef IAs and just had a discussion that resulted in a [https://en.wikiversity.org/w/index.php?title=Wikiversity:Interface_administrators&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2807543 consensus that we can have IAs that have the user rights for 14 to 120 days]. So once you have the rights, please make sure to gopher it. ―[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:black&quot;&gt;v&lt;/span&gt;f&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 17:54, 9 May 2026 (UTC)
:::::@[[User:Koavf|Koavf]] give it time. Look at me, I was in favor of shorter time, now I am looking back to times, when custodians could do it without the need of extra flag. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 18:31, 9 May 2026 (UTC)
::::::Here's hoping. I think it would reduce administrative overhead, but that's just me and I'm not a bureaucrat here. ―[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:black&quot;&gt;v&lt;/span&gt;f&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 18:33, 9 May 2026 (UTC)
::::Complicated. Where are the times, admins could do everything! [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 18:27, 9 May 2026 (UTC)

== [[Wikiversity:Bureaucratship]] to become a policy ==

Following the recent approval of [[Wikiversity:Curators]] as a policy, I think [[Wikiversity:Bureaucratship]] may also be ready for policy status.

Please share your views about whether bureaucratship is ready to become a policy, or whether further revisions are needed.

-- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 13:58, 9 May 2026 (UTC)
: I added a logo about that user group, but other than that, it looks good to me. {{support}}. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 14:38, 9 May 2026 (UTC)
:I think that the consensus on this policy is proven by years of using it without further changes. But I I have to say weather I agree with this to become a policy, than of course {{support}}. It works and there were no major issues with it. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 18:45, 9 May 2026 (UTC)</text>
      <sha1>m78l0eh4c6kbqux9xfjfsfq7bulrai7</sha1>
    </revision>
    <revision>
      <id>2808142</id>
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      <timestamp>2026-05-10T04:22:26Z</timestamp>
      <contributor>
        <username>Jtneill</username>
        <id>10242</id>
      </contributor>
      <comment>/* New titles for user right nominations */ I've split the user rights nomination pages</comment>
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      <text bytes="81489" sha1="arcfyc0zsxusmylg8j8rsmty2yw9fsn" xml:space="preserve">{{Wikiversity:Colloquium/Header}}
&lt;!-- MESSAGES GO BELOW --&gt;
== Requested update to [[Wikiversity:Interface administrators]] ==

Currently, [[Wikiversity:Interface administrators]] is a policy that includes a caveat that interface admins are not required long-term and that user right can only be added for a period of up to two weeks. I am proposing that we remove this qualification and allow for indefinite interface admin status. I think this is useful because there are reasons for tweaking the site CSS or JavaScript (e.g. to comply with dark mode), add gadgets (e.g. importing Cat-a-Lot, which I would like to do), or otherwise modifying the site that could plausibly come up on an irregular basis and requiring the overhead of a bureaucrat to add the user rights is inefficient. In particular, I am also going to request this right if the community accepts indefinite interface admins. Thoughts? —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 23:23, 17 August 2025 (UTC)

:And who will then monitor them to make sure they don't damage the project in any way, or abuse the rights acquired in this way? For large projects, this might not be a problem, but for smaller projects like the English Wikiversity, I'm not sure if there are enough users who would say, something is happening here that shouldn't be happening. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 10:28, 20 August 2025 (UTC)
::Anyone would be who. This argument applies to any person with any advanced rights here. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 10:46, 20 August 2025 (UTC)
:I think it is reasonable to allow for longer periods of access than 2 weeks to interface admin and support adjusting the policy to allow for this flexibility. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 04:57, 2 December 2025 (UTC)
::+1 —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 16:38, 25 January 2026 (UTC)
:@[[User:Koavf|Koavf]] I agree that the two-week requirement could be revised, but wouldn’t people just request access for a specific purpose anyway? Instead of granting indefinite access, they should request the specific time frame they need the rights for—until the planned fixes are completed—and then request an extension if more time is required. We could remove the two-week criterion while still keeping the access explicitly temporary. [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 02:48, 25 January 2026 (UTC)
::I just don't see why this wiki needs to be different than all of the others. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 07:18, 25 January 2026 (UTC)
:::There isn’t really much of a need for a permanent one at this point in time [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 09:53, 25 January 2026 (UTC)
:I quite agree with this proposal, so long as they perform the suggested changes as mentioned here. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 04:06, 26 January 2026 (UTC)
:: Just to clarify, I support '''indefinite interface admin status'''. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 18:34, 13 April 2026 (UTC)
:I think there is decent consensus for lengthening this, but not necessarily for indefinite permissions, so does anyone object to me revising it to the standard being 120 days instead of two weeks? I'll check back on this thread in three weeks and if there's no objection, I'll make the change. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 20:47, 13 April 2026 (UTC)
::Sure [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 23:27, 13 April 2026 (UTC)
::Thanks for proposing this, Justin. I agree with the proposal to lengthen the interface admin period from 2 weeks but not indefinitely. Can I check the source(s) for the standard being 120 days (I'm guessing policies on other projects or maybe global policy?)? In any case, I think it is reasonable for us to adopt a similar period. However, note on the current policy discussion page notes from @[[User:Dave Braunschweig|Dave Braunschweig]] arguing for shorter periods to lower risk, that's why it is 2 weeks. But if there are projects that need longer access, that should also be accommodated. Maybe we could adjust the policy to specify that ''interface admin rights can be given for 14 to 120 days depending on how long is required and what is supported by the community''. Sincerely, James -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 08:29, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
:::There was there was no source for 120: it was just more than 14 and less than infinity. The &quot;14 to 120&quot; also seems reasonable. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 14:33, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
::: On some small/medium-sized wikis, such as English Wikibooks and English Wikiquote for example, indefinite interface administrator access for administrators is allowed, but they tend not to make changes to the CSS and JS page changes unless it's truly necessary. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 14:34, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
:::It's a good idea to make the length of this right on request or allow to be prolonged. However, IA should test large changes somewhere else, for example on the en.wv mirror, and only after testing it on the mirror, adapt it to the live version. That means I can't imagine a time-consuming operation right now. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 20:04, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
::::Sorry, what mirror is this? Are you talking about beta.wv? —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 20:32, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
:::::Not beta.wv. Basically somewhere else then on a live wiki. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 20:59, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
:::::: Wouldn't testing on a user's own common.css page work anyway? [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 21:36, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
:Change made here: https://en.wikiversity.org/w/index.php?title=Wikiversity%3AInterface_administrators&amp;diff=2807543&amp;oldid=2806289 —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 13:35, 4 May 2026 (UTC)

== [[Template:AI-generated]] ==

After going through the plethora of ChatGPT-generated pages made by [[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]] (with many more pages to go), I'd like community input on this proposal to [[Wikiversity:Artificial intelligence]] that I think would be benefical for the community:
*Resources generated by AI '''must''' be indicated as so through the project box, [[Template:AI-generated]], on either the page or the main resource (if the page is a part of a project).
I do not believe including a small note/reference that a page is AI-generated is sufficient, and I take my thinking from [[WV:Original research|Wikiversity's OR policy]] for OR work: ''Within Wikiversity, all original research should be clearly identified as such''. I believe resources created from AI should also be clearly indicated as such, especially since we are working on whether or not AI-generated resources should be allowed on the website (discussion is [[Wikiversity talk:Artificial intelligence|here]], for reference). This makes it easier for organizational purposes, and in the event ''if'' we ban AI-generated work. 

I've left a message on Lee's talk page over a week ago and did not get a response or acknowledgement, so I'd like for the community's input for this inclusion to the policy. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 15:53, 26 January 2026 (UTC)

:I believe that existing Wikiversity policies are sufficient. Authors are responsible for the accuracy and usefulness of the content that is published. This policy covers AI-generated content that is: 1) carefully reviewed by the author publishing it, and 2) the source is noted.   [[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]] ([[User talk:Lbeaumont|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Lbeaumont|contribs]]) 19:38, 27 January 2026 (UTC)
::A small reference for pages that are substantially filled with Chat-GPT entries, like [[Real Good Religion]], [[Attributing Blame]], [[Fostering Curiosity]], are not sufficient IMO and a project box would be the best indicator that a page is AI-generated (especially when there is a mixture of human created content AND AI-generated content, as present in a lot of your pages). This is useful, especially considering the notable issues with AI (including hallucinations and fabrication of details), so viewers and support staff are aware. These small notes left on the pages are not as easily viewable as a project box or banner would be. I really don't see the issue with a clear-label guideline. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 22:34, 27 January 2026 (UTC)
::{{ping|Lbeaumont}} I noticed your reversions [https://en.wikiversity.org/w/index.php?title=Exploring_Existential_Concerns&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2788278 here] &amp; [https://en.wikiversity.org/w/index.php?title=Subjective_Awareness&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2788257 here]. I'd prefer to have a clean conversation regarding this proposition. Please voice your concerns here. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 15:53, 28 January 2026 (UTC)
:::Regarding Subjective Awareness, I distinctly recall the effort I went to to write that the old-fashioned way. It is true that ChatGPT assisted me in augmenting the list of words suggested as candidate subjective states. This is a small section of the course, is clearly marked, and makes no factual claim. Marking the entire course as AI-generated is misleading. I would have made these comments when I reverted your edit; however, the revert button does not provide that opportunity.
:::Regarding the Exploring Existential Concerns course, please note this was adapted from my EmotionalCompetency.com website, which predates the availability of LLMs. The course does include two links, clearly labeled as ChatGPT-generated. Again, marking the entire course as AI-generated is misleading.
:::On a broader issue, I don't consider your opinions to have established a carefully debated and adopted Wikiversity policy. You went ahead and modified many of my courses over my clearly stated objections. Please let this issue play out more completely before editing my courses further. Thanks.   [[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]] ([[User talk:Lbeaumont|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Lbeaumont|contribs]]) 15:11, 29 January 2026 (UTC)
::::Understood, and I respect your position. I apologize if my edits were seen as overarching. We could change the project box to &quot;a portion of this resource was generated by AI&quot;, or something along those lines. Feel free to revert my changes where you see fit, and I encourage more users to provide their input. EDIT: I've made changes to the template to indicate that a portion of the content has been generated from an LLM. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 15:50, 29 January 2026 (UTC)
:::::Thanks for this reply. The new banner is unduly large and alarming. There is no need for alarm here. The use of AI is not harmful per se. Like any technology, it can be used to help or to harm. I take care to craft prompts carefully, point the LMM to reliable source materials, and to carefully read and verify the generated text before I publish it. This is all in keeping with long-established Wikiversity policy. We don't want to use a  [[w:One-drop_rule|one-drop rule]] here or cause a [[w:Satanic_panic|satanic panic]]. We can learn our lessons from history here. I don't see any pedagogical reason for establishing a classification of &quot;AI generated&quot;, but if there is a consensus that it is needed, perhaps it can be handled as just another category that learning resources can be assigned to. I would rather focus on identifying any errors in factual claims than on casting pejorative bias toward AI-generated content. An essay on the best practices for using LMM on Wikiveristy would be welcome.   [[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]] ([[User talk:Lbeaumont|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Lbeaumont|contribs]]) 15:58, 30 January 2026 (UTC)
::::::The new banner mimics the banner that is available on the English Wikibooks (see [[b:Template:AI-generated]] &amp; [[b:Template:Uses AI]]), so my revisions aren't unique in this aspect. At this point, I'd welcome other peoples' inputs. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 19:40, 30 January 2026 (UTC)

== How do I start making pages? ==
Is there a notability guideline for Wikiversity? What is the sourcing policy for information? What is the Manual of Style? What kind of educational content qualifies for Wikiversity? All the introduction pages are a bit unclear. 
[[User:VidanaliK|VidanaliK]] ([[User talk:VidanaliK|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/VidanaliK|contribs]]) 02:25, 28 January 2026 (UTC)

:{{ping|VidanaliK}} Welcome to Wikiversity! I've left you a welcome message on your talk page. That should help you out. Make sure to especially look at [[Wikiversity:Introduction]]. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 03:11, 28 January 2026 (UTC)
::It says that I can't post more pages because I have apparently exceeded the new page limit. How long does it take before that new page limit expires? [[User:VidanaliK|VidanaliK]] ([[User talk:VidanaliK|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/VidanaliK|contribs]]) 16:57, 28 January 2026 (UTC)
:::This is a restriction for new users so that Wikiversity is not hit with massive spam. As for when this limit will expire, it should be a few days or after a certain number of edits. It's easy to overcome, though I do not have the exact numbers atm. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 15:08, 29 January 2026 (UTC)
::::OK, I think I got past the limit. [[User:VidanaliK|VidanaliK]] ([[User talk:VidanaliK|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/VidanaliK|contribs]]) 17:21, 29 January 2026 (UTC)
==Why does it feel like Wikiversity is no longer really active anymore?==
I've been looking at recent changes, and both today and yesterday there haven't been many changes that I haven't made; it feels like walking through a ghost town, is this just me or is Wikiversity not really active anymore? [[User:VidanaliK|VidanaliK]] ([[User talk:VidanaliK|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/VidanaliK|contribs]]) 03:54, 30 January 2026 (UTC)

:There is fewer people editing these days compared to the past. Many newcomers tend to edit in Wikipedia instead. [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 06:39, 30 January 2026 (UTC)
:It’s a little slow, but I’m happy to know that Wikiversity is a place that I think should provide value even if the activity of editors fluctuates. If it’s any consolation your edits may be encouraging for some anonymous newcomer to start edits on their own! I think it’s hard to build community when there is such a wide variety of interests and a smaller starting userbase. Also sometimes the getting into a particular topic that already exists can be intimidating because some relics (large portals, school, categories, etc.) have intricate, unique and generally messy levels of organization. [[User:IanVG|IanVG]] ([[User talk:IanVG|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/IanVG|contribs]]) 22:16, 9 March 2026 (UTC)
:I'd say it comes down to working hard for Wikiversity, basically if somebody or a group of people will start presenting good ideas and they turn out to be provably stable.
:I even asked Google's &quot;AI Mode&quot;, what is Wikiversity famous for? Unfortunately it could not answer that.
:Simply, we have not made Wikiversity famous by presenting really provable stable ideas yet. My hope is that this time might come. Perhaps even this year 2026!
:Hope dies last. [[User:ThinkingScience|ThinkingScience]] ([[User talk:ThinkingScience|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ThinkingScience|contribs]]) 10:12, 27 April 2026 (UTC)

== Inactivity policy for Curators ==

I was wondering if there is a specific inactivity polity for curators (semi-admins) as I am pretty sure the global policy does not apply to them as they are not ''fully'' sysops. [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 03:20, 15 February 2026 (UTC)

:Unfortunately, I don't see an inactivity policy, but if we were to create such a new policy for curators, it should be the same for custodians (administrators). [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 18:45, 15 February 2026 (UTC)
::@[[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] There is currently none, that I could find, for custodians either. [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 00:47, 17 February 2026 (UTC)
:::I think we should propose a local inactivity policy for custodians (and by extension, curators), which should be at least one year without any edits ''and'' logged actions. However, I don't know which page should it be when the inactivity removal procedure starts. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 00:53, 17 February 2026 (UTC)
::::@[[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] In theory, there should be a section added at [[WV:Candidates for custodianship]] [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 00:55, 17 February 2026 (UTC)
::::: To be consistent with the [[meta:Admin activity review|global period of 2 years inactivity]] for en.wv  [[Wikiversity:Custodianship#Notes|Custodians]] and [[Wikiversity:Bureaucratship#How are bureaucrats removed?|Bureaucrats]] we could add something like this to [[Wikiversity:Curators]]:
::::::The maximum time period of inactivity &lt;u&gt;without community review&lt;/u&gt; for curators is two years (consistent with  the [[:meta:Category:Global policies|global policy]] described at [[meta:Admin activity review|Admin activity review]] which applies for [[Wikiversity:Custodianship#Notes|Custodians]] and [[Wikiversity:Bureaucratship|Bureaucrats]]). After that time a custodian will remove the rights.
::::: -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 10:51, 27 March 2026 (UTC)
:::::Yup, I agree with Jtneill, there is a policy proposal for Wikiversity:Curators, where it should be logically deployed. The question is if we are ready to aprove the policy. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 17:43, 17 April 2026 (UTC)
:::::: I agree, but we should notify the colloquium about inactive curators, just like a steward would do for inactive custodians and bureaucrats per [[:m:Admin activity review|AAR]]. What is the minimum timeframe an inactive curator should receive so they can respond they would keep their rights? [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 17:49, 17 April 2026 (UTC)
:I incorporated these suggestions into the proposed curators policy. Please review/comment/improve. Summary: 2 years, notify curator's user page, then remove rights after 1 month: [[Wikiversity:Curators#Inactivity]]. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 08:59, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
:: @[[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] I created [[Template:Inactive curator]] for this. Feel free to make any changes or improvements. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 14:29, 24 April 2026 (UTC)

== [[Wikiversity:Artificial intelligence]] to become an official policy ==
{{Archive top|After running for a week, there is consensus, alongside comments, for [[Wikiversity:Artificial intelligence]] to be implemented as an official policy. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 23:27, 17 April 2026 (UTC)}}
With the introduction of AI-material, and some material just plain disruptive, its imperative that Wikiversity catches up with its sister projects and implements an official AI policy that we can work with. The recent issue of [[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]]'s 50+ articles that contain significantly large AI-generated material has made me came to the Colloquium. This user has also been removing the [[Template:AI-generated]] template from their pages, calling it &quot;misleading&quot;, &quot;alarmist&quot;, and &quot;pejorative&quot; - which is all just simply nonsensical rationales. Not to even mention this user's contributions to the English Wikipedia have been [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Inner_Development_Goals contested] and [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Multipolar_trap removed] a couple of times (for being low-quality and clearly LLM-generated), highlighting the need for an actual policy to be implemented here on Wikiversity. I would like to ping {{ping|Juandev}} and {{ping|Jtneill}} for their thoughts as well, since I'd like this to be implemented as soon as possible. 

Wikiversity has a significant issue with implementing anti-disruptive measures, hence why we have received numerous complaints as a community about our quality. I originally was reverting the removal of the templates, but realized that this is still a proposed policy, which it shouldn't be anymore. It should be a recognized Wikiversity policy. 14:54, 10 March 2026 (UTC) —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 14:54, 10 March 2026 (UTC)

:@[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] '''I agree''' that the draft, should become official policy. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 17:00, 10 March 2026 (UTC)
:I provided a detailed response at: [[Wikiversity talk:Artificial intelligence#Evolving a Wikiversity policy on AI]]
:I will appreaciate it if you consder that carefully. [[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]] ([[User talk:Lbeaumont|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Lbeaumont|contribs]]) 22:49, 10 March 2026 (UTC)
:Agree it should become official Wikiversity policy on the condition &lt;u&gt;that point point 5 is about [significant/substantial] LLM-generated text specifically&lt;/u&gt;. Not a good idea to overuse it, it should be added when there is substantial AI-generated text on the page, not for other cases. [[User:Prototyperspective|Prototyperspective]] ([[User talk:Prototyperspective|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Prototyperspective|contribs]]) 12:37, 11 March 2026 (UTC)
:What policy is being debated? Is it the text on this page, which is pointed to by the general banner, or the text at:   [[Wikiversity:Artificial intelligence|Wikiversity:Artificial intelligence,]]   which is pointed to by the specific banner? Let's begin with coherence on the text being debated. Thanks!  [[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]] ([[User talk:Lbeaumont|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Lbeaumont|contribs]]) 11:49, 17 March 2026 (UTC)
::@[[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]] This is a call for approval of the new Wikiversity policy. You expressed your opinion [[Wikiversity talk:Artificial intelligence#Evolving a Wikiversity policy on AI|on the talk page of the proposal]], I replied to you and await your response.When creating policies, it is necessary to propose specific solutions. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 14:12, 17 March 2026 (UTC)
:::Toward a Justified and Parsimonious AI Policy 
:::As we collaborate to develop a consensus policy on the use of Large Language Models, it is wise to begin by considering the needs of the various stakeholders to the policy.
:::The stakeholders are:
:::1)     The users, 
:::2)     The source providers, and
:::3)     The editors
:::There may also be others with a minor stake in this policy, including the population at large.
:::The many needs of the users are currently addressed by long-standing [[Wikiversity:Policies|Wikiversity policies]], so we can focus on what, if any, additional needs arise as LLMs are deployed. 
:::As always, users need assurance that propositional statements are accurate. This is covered by the existing policy on [[Wikiversity:Verifiability|verifiably]]. In addition, it is expected by both the users and those that provide materials used as sources for the text are [[Wikiversity:Cite sources|accurately attributed]]. This is also covered by [[Wikiversity:Cite sources|existing policies]].
:::To respect the time and effort of editors, a parsimonious policy will unburden editors from costly requirements that exceed benefits to the users.
:::Finally, it is important to recognize that because attention is our most valuable seizing attention unnecessarily is a form of theft. 
:::The following proposed policy statement results from these considerations:
:::Recommended Policy statement:
:::·       Editors [[Wikiversity:Verifiability|verify the accuracy]] of propositional statements, regardless of the source.
:::·       Editors [[Wikiversity:Cite sources|attribute the source]] of propositional statements. In the case of LLM, cite the LLM model and the prompt used.
:::·       Use of various available templates to mark the use of LLM are optional. Templates that are flexible in noting the type and extend of LLM usage are preferred. Templates that avoid unduly distracting or alarming the user are preferred. [[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]] ([[User talk:Lbeaumont|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Lbeaumont|contribs]]) 19:56, 19 March 2026 (UTC)
::::Do we discuss here or there? I have replied you there as your proposal is about that policy so it is tradition to discuss it at the affected talk page. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 21:59, 19 March 2026 (UTC)
: {{support}} Thanks for the proposed policy development and discussion; also note proposed policy talk page discussion: [[Wikiversity talk:Artificial intelligence]] -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 12:05, 24 March 2026 (UTC)
::I think the Wikiversity AI policy shall be official. – [[User:RestoreAccess111|RestoreAccess111]] &lt;sup style=&quot;font-family:Arimo, Arial;&quot;&gt;[[User talk:RestoreAccess111|Talk!]]&lt;/sup&gt; &lt;sup style=&quot;font-family:Times New Roman, Tinos;&quot;&gt;[[Special:Contributions/RestoreAccess111|Watch!]]&lt;/sup&gt; 06:11, 13 April 2026 (UTC)
{{archive bottom}}

== New titles for user right nominations ==
&lt;div class=&quot;cd-moveMark&quot;&gt;''Moved from [[Wikiversity talk:Candidates for Custodianship#New titles for user right nominations]].  [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 23:20, 17 April 2026 (UTC)''&lt;/div&gt;

I would like to propose the following retitles should a user be nominated for any of the following user rights:
* Curator: Candidates for Curatorship
* Bureaucrat: Candidates for Bureaucratship
The reason is that many curator (and probably bureaucrat) requests have run solely under {{tq|Candidates for Custodianship}}, but that title might sound misleading (especially in regards to the permission a user is requesting). CheckUser and Oversight (suppressor) are not included above since no user was nominated for these sensitive permissions, probably. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 01:30, 19 March 2026 (UTC)

:And it's not that when someone at the beginning misplaced the request, no one thought to move it and the others copied it. Even today, it would be possible to simply take it all and move it. Otherwise, for me, the more fundamental problem is that there is [[Wikiversity:Curators|no approved policy for curators]] than where the requests are based. Curators then operate in a certain vacuum and if one of them &quot;breaks out of the chain&quot;, the average user doesn't have many transparent tools to deal with it, because there is no policy. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 07:02, 19 March 2026 (UTC)
::I am not talking about the curator page (policy proposal). [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 19:08, 21 March 2026 (UTC)
: @[[User:Juandev|Juandev]] I'll see if I can do an overhaul of [[Wikiversity:Candidates for Custodianship]], just like I recently did with the Requests for adminship page on English Wikiquote. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 22:17, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
:Yes, great idea - ideally there will be separate &quot;Candidates for ...&quot; pages for each user right group. The most important for now is to separate curator and custodian pages as CN suggests. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 11:39, 1 May 2026 (UTC)
:So maybe I previously misunderstood. Are you proposing separated pages for nominations (i.e. [[Wikiversity:Candidates for Curatorship]], [[Wikiversity:Candidates for Bureaucratship]], [[Wikiversity:Candidates for Custodianship]])? [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 12:30, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
:: Yes. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 13:33, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
:::I see, then I am fine with that @[[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]]. Sorry for misunderstanding. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 18:35, 9 May 2026 (UTC)

I've split the user rights nomination pages into:
* [[Wikiversity:Candidates for CheckUser]]
* [[Wikiversity:Candidates for Curatorship]]
* [[Wikiversity:Candidates for Custodianship]]
* [[Wikiversity:Candidates for Bureaucratship]]

Please review. There are likely several links to update, text to adjust, categories to manage, short-cuts to fix etc. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 04:22, 10 May 2026 (UTC)

== Technical Request:  Courtesy link.. ==

[[Template_talk:Information#Background_must_have_color_defined_as_well]] [[User:ShakespeareFan00|ShakespeareFan00]] ([[User talk:ShakespeareFan00|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ShakespeareFan00|contribs]]) 11:43, 20 March 2026 (UTC)
: I can't edit the template directly as it need an sysop/interface admin to do it. [[User:ShakespeareFan00|ShakespeareFan00]] ([[User talk:ShakespeareFan00|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ShakespeareFan00|contribs]]) 11:43, 20 March 2026 (UTC)
:: Also if the Template field of - https://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Special:LintErrors/night-mode-unaware-background-color is examined, there is poential for an admin to clear a substantial proportion of these by implmenting a simmilar fix to the indciated templates (and underlying stylesheets). It would be nice to clear things like Project box and others, as many other templates (and thus pages depend on them.) :)
[[User:ShakespeareFan00|ShakespeareFan00]] ([[User talk:ShakespeareFan00|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ShakespeareFan00|contribs]]) 11:43, 20 March 2026 (UTC)

:I think it would be best to grant you interface admin rights for a short period of time to make these changes. However, I still have doubts about the suitability of this solution, which may cause other problems and no one has explained to me why dark mode has to be implemented this way @[[User:ShakespeareFan00|ShakespeareFan00]]. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 20:43, 20 March 2026 (UTC)

: I would have reservations about holding such rights, which is why I was trying to do what I could without needing them. However if it is the only way to get the required changes made, I would suggest asking on Wikipedia to find technical editors, willing to undertake the changes needed. [[User:ShakespeareFan00|ShakespeareFan00]] ([[User talk:ShakespeareFan00|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ShakespeareFan00|contribs]]) 09:32, 21 March 2026 (UTC)

== WikiEducator has closed ==

Some of you may know of a similar project to Wikiversity, called [https://wikieducator.org/Main_Page WikiEducator], championed by [https://oerfoundation.org/about/staff/wayne-mackintosh/ Wayne Mackintosh][https://www.linkedin.com/posts/waynemackintosh_important-notice-about-the-oer-foundation-activity-7405113051688931329-Nhm9/][https://openeducation.nz/killed-not-starved/].

It seems [https://openeducation.nz/terminating-oer-foundation their foundation has closed] and they are no longer operating.

They had done quite a bit of outreach (e.g., in the Pacific and Africa) to get educators using wiki.

The WikiEducator content is still available in MediaWiki - and potentially could be imported to Wikiversity ([https://wikieducator.org/WikiEducator:Copyrights CC-BY-SA] is the default license).

The closing of WikiEducator arguably makes the nurturing of Wikiversity even more important.

-- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 02:09, 1 April 2026 (UTC)

:I was never active there. If anyone has an account or is otherwise in contact, we may want to copy relevant information here or even at [[:outreach:]]. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 04:46, 1 April 2026 (UTC)

:: I reached out to [[User:Mackiwg~enwikiversity|Wayne]] in January, and he responded briefly but positively (while travelling).  I wrote to the low-traffic wikieducator mailing list today and got a nice [https://groups.google.com/g/wikieducator/c/r_yIyUw6ZIA reply] from [[user:SteveFoerster|Steve Foerster]] who's interested in helping. If we can figure out a migration path it would be great to adopt at least the main namespace pages here.  
:: A few questions that come to mind: 
:: - would people want to create matching user accounts
:: - are there any namespaces (user/talk?) that should not be moved over
:: We could look at how this was done for the [[m:Wikivoyage/Migration]] wikivoyage migration. &lt;span style=&quot;padding:0 2px 0 2px;background-color:white;color:#bbb;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash;[[User:Sj|SJ]][[User Talk:Sj|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#ff9900;&quot;&gt;+&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 04:27, 1 May 2026 (UTC)
:::That's fantastic, SJ, that you've reached out and that Wayne, Steve, and Jim are receptive—and that you can help! -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 11:52, 1 May 2026 (UTC)

== Wikinews is ending ==

Apparently mainly due to low editorial activity, low public interest, but also failure to achieve the goals from the proposal for the creation of the project, the Wikinews project is ending after years of discussions ([[Meta:Proposal for Closing Wikinews|some reading]]).

And I would be interested to see how Wikiversity is doing in the monitored metrics. We probably have more editors than Wikinews had, but what about consumers and achieving the goals? [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 19:14, 1 April 2026 (UTC)

:Wikiversity's biggest issue in recent times was the hosting of low-quality, trash content. Thankfully we've done a great job in removing pseudoscience and other embarrassingly trash content (Wikidebates, for example), but the biggest concern moving forward is proper maintenance IMO. I've caught several pseudoscience pages being created within the last few months that could easily have flown under the radar (ex, [[The Kelemen Dilemma: Causal Collapse and Axiomatic Instability]]), so I'd urge our custodians/curators to be on the lookout for this type of content. Usually an AI-overview can point this type of content out relatively well.
:In terms of visibility, I believe Wikiversity is a high-traffic project. I remember my [[Mathematical Properties]] showing up on the first page of Google when searching up &quot;math properties&quot; for the longest time (and is still showing up in the first page 'till this day!). Besides, Wikinews hosted a lot of short-term content (the nature of news articles), while Wikiversity hosts content that can still be useful a decade later (ex, [[A Reader's Guide to Annotation]]). 
:I think we are on a better path than we were a few months ago, and I do want to thank everyone here who has been helping out with maintaining our website! —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 20:48, 1 April 2026 (UTC)
:For what it's worth, the group that did that study has since disbanded, so no one is monitoring the other sister projects in the same way. Additionally, Wikinews had some catastrophic server issues due to the maintenance of [[:m:Extension:DynamicPageList]] which don't apply here. Your questions are still worth addressing, but I just wanted to cut off any concern at the pass about Wikiversity being in the same precarious situation. Wikiversity is definitely the biggest &quot;lagging behind&quot; or &quot;failure&quot; project now that Wikinews is being shuttered, but I don't see any near- or medium-term pathway to closing Wikiversity. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 00:46, 2 April 2026 (UTC)

:[[w:en:Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2026-03-31/News and notes|Entirety of Wikinews to be shut down]] (Wikipedia Signpost) -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 02:03, 11 April 2026 (UTC)

== Action Required: Update templates/modules for electoral maps (Migrating from P1846 to P14226) ==

Hello everyone,

This is a notice regarding an ongoing data migration on Wikidata that may affect your election-related templates and Lua modules (such as &lt;code&gt;Module:Itemgroup/list&lt;/code&gt;).

'''The Change:'''&lt;br /&gt;
Currently, many templates pull electoral maps from Wikidata using the property [[:d:Property:P1846|P1846]], combined with the qualifier [[:d:Property:P180|P180]]: [[:d:Q19571328|Q19571328]]. 

We are migrating this data (across roughly 4,000 items) to a newly created, dedicated property: '''[[:d:Property:P14226|P14226]]'''.

'''What You Need To Do:'''&lt;br /&gt;
To ensure your templates and infoboxes do not break or lose their maps, please update your local code to fetch data from [[:d:Property:P14226|P14226]] instead of the old [[:d:Property:P1846|P1846]] + [[:d:Property:P180|P180]] structure. A [[m:Wikidata/Property Migration: P1846 to P14226/List|list of pages]] was generated using Wikimedia Global Search.

'''Deadline:'''&lt;br /&gt;
We are temporarily retaining the old data on [[:d:Property:P1846|P1846]] to allow for a smooth transition. However, to complete the data cleanup on Wikidata, the old [[:d:Property:P1846|P1846]] statements will be removed after '''May 1, 2026'''. Please update your modules and templates before this date to prevent any disruption to your wiki's election articles.

Let us know if you have any questions or need assistance with the query logic. Thank you for your help! [[User:ZI Jony|ZI Jony]] using [[User:MediaWiki message delivery|MediaWiki message delivery]] ([[User talk:MediaWiki message delivery|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/MediaWiki message delivery|contribs]]) 17:11, 3 April 2026 (UTC)
&lt;!-- Message sent by User:ZI Jony@metawiki using the list at https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Distribution_list/Non-Technical_Village_Pumps_distribution_list&amp;oldid=29941252 --&gt;
:I didnt find such properties, so we are probably fine. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 21:00, 12 April 2026 (UTC)
:: +1 (agreed). [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 22:19, 12 April 2026 (UTC)

== Enable the abuse filter block action? ==

In light of [[Special:AbuseLog/80178]] (coupon spam), I would like to propose enabling the block action for the abuse filter. Only custodians will be able to enable and disable that action on an abuse filter, and it is useful to block ongoing vandalism. Thoughts? [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 19:12, 13 April 2026 (UTC)

:Seems like a good idea, almost all of the users which create such pages are spambots so this shouldn’t be a problem. [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 23:41, 13 April 2026 (UTC)
:Can you explain some more (I am new to abuse filters)? It looks like the attempted edit was prevented? Which abuse filter?
:Note on your suggestion, have also reactivated Antispam Filter 12 - see [[WV:RCA]]. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 10:45, 15 April 2026 (UTC)
:: I am proposing that we activate the abuse filter block action, which if a user triggers an abuse filter, it would actually block the user in question - the same mechanism that a custodian would use to block users. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 13:11, 15 April 2026 (UTC)
:::OK, thankyou, that makes sense. And, reviewing the abuse filter 12 log, it would be helpful because it would prevent the need for manual blocking. But I don't see a setting for autoblocking? -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 23:14, 15 April 2026 (UTC)
:::: I think it probably adds an autoblock. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 00:43, 16 April 2026 (UTC)
: [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] and [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]], given that a little bit more than a week has passed and there is minimal consensus to activate the abuse filter block action, I filed [[phab:T424053]]. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 15:05, 21 April 2026 (UTC)
::Thank-you for doing this. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 08:03, 24 April 2026 (UTC)

== Advice needed: A Neurodiversity-inspired Idea/observation ==

If I want the greatest participation of others to &quot;provide constructive criticism to my idea&quot; or to &quot;shoot down my idea&quot; or &quot;idea&quot;.

What I've called it so far is &quot;The Neurodiversity-inspired Idea&quot;. At other times I used more sensationalist wording but here on Wikiversity I don't dare do that. I actually woke up with thinking about putting this into my userspace draft: &quot;Personal Observations Made By Meeting Autistic and Non-Autistic Adults&quot;.

My ultimate goal is to stop blathering about my &quot;idea&quot; to friend and family without feeling my &quot;methodology&quot; is going into any progressive direction whatsoever. My latest encounter was somewhat constructive though. A friend of a friend who worked with people presenting ideas in attempting to getting grants. I don't want a grant. I just want to figure out how I can express my &quot;idea&quot; in a way so that I can more clearly figure out what flaws it got.

At the same time I tend to overthink. If anyone thinks etherpad might be a good place and considering Wikimedia already got an etherpad at https://etherpad.wikimedia.org/ if anyone feels like they know me better in the future feel free to suggest a &quot;session&quot; on etherpad.

'''If I don't receive a reply to this in 1 week's time I will begin to explore this &quot;idea&quot; into my userspace''' unless you replied and refrained me from doing so, of course. Then maybe after &quot;developing it there&quot; I might reference it to you another future time here in the Colloquium, with my &quot;idea&quot; still in my userspace draft. This &quot;idea&quot; is sort of a burden, I'm happy I've made the choice to get rid of it and hopefully move on with my life, unless there is something to this &quot;idea&quot;. 

My failure is probably evident: I feel I haven't told you anything. Same happened to when I talked to friends and family. In danger of overthinking it further I'll publish this right now. I need to &quot;keep it together&quot; [[User:ThinkingScience|ThinkingScience]] ([[User talk:ThinkingScience|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ThinkingScience|contribs]]) 10:36, 16 April 2026 (UTC)

:Good on you putting it out there ... and hitting publish :). I'd say go for it (no need to wait), give birth to your idea and share about it here and elsewhere. Let it take shape and see where it might go. In many ways, this is exactly what an open collaborative learning community should be doing. Others might not know well how to respond, so perhaps consider creating some questions to accompany the idea. Sincerely, James -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 11:21, 16 April 2026 (UTC)
::Thank you for encouraging me in developing the idea.
::I have created a &quot;questions&quot; section in the draft which is visible in the table of contents now. My brain was &quot;frozen&quot; today metaphorically speaking in that I felt I had like a &quot;writer's block&quot; so the draft has more &quot;AI/LLM&quot; content than before. I used the LLM for generating questions. The answers are so far human-only.
::I've also created a subsection where I could add the prompts that made the LLM generate the questions. That could help people make better prompts perhaps. I've described what it is about inside of it and there are some chaotically written notes.
::[[Draft:The_Neurodiversity-inspired_Idea#Questions_that_might_encourage_the_development_of_this_idea_and_its_methodology]]
::My draft is missing stuff. Any questions that you contribute to my draft will probably help me and if I don't understand the questions I'll probably notify you and also at the same time &quot;feed them&quot; to an LLM and ask in my input like &quot;explain in simple words what this question means, what is it searching for?&quot; etc. while I wait for an answer. If you have any more feedback please give it to me here or on the Draft page, its talk page or my user talk page. Thank you for helping me! [[User:ThinkingScience|ThinkingScience]] ([[User talk:ThinkingScience|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ThinkingScience|contribs]]) 21:20, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
::Today I woke up with not only thinking about supplying questions along with the &quot;idea&quot; but also answers. ie. Is it possible to &quot;test&quot; this idea? Is it possible to create one or multiple hypotheses based on this &quot;idea&quot;?(etc.) I've thought about this before in this &quot;idea&quot; but since I'm beginning to add to Wikiversity what was previously 'locked in my mind' it's also easier for me to see what I've done so far. Thank you for this comment! [[User:ThinkingScience|ThinkingScience]] ([[User talk:ThinkingScience|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ThinkingScience|contribs]]) 09:11, 23 April 2026 (UTC)
:May I think that you should not add deadlines ; being read, and rising interest for collaboration, or even simply for exchange of thoughts, such an effective meeting event loads a huge bunch of unprobability, which time can help to… somehow diminish. Maybe, I would advice you having a central place for developping your ideas, your needs, your advances, maybe a page in your own user zone, and from time to time, depending your feeling, it could be every trimester or so, or more frequently, you could write a short account of progress (or even of no progress), or a call for participation, in such a place as this present one ; I think that will increase much exposure of your projet. Maybe also, if you can find a project name, not necessarily very meaningfull by itseilf (at least it will gain signification with time, as your project develops), that will serve as a kind-of hook, and make your announcement titles more visible. Best regards (and my excuses for my poor command of English, which seems to be unplease an anti-abuse filter, &quot;Questionable Language (profanity)&quot;, which I don't understand…). My few cents. --  [[User:Eric.LEWIN|Eric.LEWIN]] ([[User talk:Eric.LEWIN|discussion]] • [[Special:Contributions/Eric.LEWIN|contributions]]) 10:06, 17 April 2026 (UTC)
::Sorry about the false positive on the profanity filter - I've fixed it. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 10:26, 17 April 2026 (UTC)
:::&quot;May I think that you should not add deadlines ; being read, and rising interest for collaboration, or even simply for exchange of thoughts, such an effective meeting event loads a huge bunch of unprobability, which time can help to… somehow diminish.&quot;
::Thank you Eric for this comment. Trust in time is how I interpret it. I should not feel like I need to be in a hurry. I'll try to give this time. Thank you!
:::&quot;Maybe, I would advice you having a central place for developping your ideas, your needs, your advances, maybe a page in your own user zone, and from time to time, depending your feeling, it could be every trimester or so, or more frequently, you could write a short account of progress (or even of no progress), or a call for participation, in such a place as this present one ; I think that will increase much exposure of your projet.&quot;
::A central place for developing or making &quot;project notes&quot; regarding the Neurodiversity idea on my userspace, I might need that, like a diary or &quot;project notes&quot; of the Neurodiversity idea similar to my course notes regarding my experience with Coursera.
::Any actions I take are going to be related to my Userspace from now on but I'll also update the draft when necessary. Now in the beginning I might be working daily to once every 3 days on both the draft and the daily notes I plan to make.
:::&quot;Maybe also, if you can find a project name, not necessarily very meaningfull by itseilf (at least it will gain signification with time, as your project develops), that will serve as a kind-of hook, and make your announcement titles more visible.&quot;
::Thank you for the advice. I was brainstorming yesterday about it. I concluded that since I've not yet developed a methodology that adheres to &quot;Do no harm&quot; and this is my first time working my &quot;idea&quot; into a way that is compatible with how projects develop on English Wikiversity this is new to me. My methodology isn't developed and therefore trying to get attention to my project through a name can wait. Yesterday I figured out a silly title that has nothing to do with the project: &quot;Planetary Awareness Potato Cabbage Rolls&quot; or something like that. Google output read that no such thing exists so I wanted it mainly to be unique. I don't want to raise attention that I'm unsure whether I'll actually be capable of developing a methodology for but project notes is my best bet so far in tracking my progress. Every day I think about this &quot;idea&quot; but I need to improve the important parts.
:::&quot;Best regards (and my excuses for my poor command of English, which seems to be unplease an anti-abuse filter, &quot;Questionable Language (profanity)&quot;, which I don't understand…). My few cents.&quot;
::You added great points and I felt that I was helped by you! I encourage you to post again and I can understand that interacting with any kind of automated filter can be discouraging and can be for me too! Thank you for giving me feedback! [[User:ThinkingScience|ThinkingScience]] ([[User talk:ThinkingScience|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ThinkingScience|contribs]]) 16:01, 18 April 2026 (UTC)

== Add some user rights to the curator user group? ==

By default, only custodians have the ability to mark new pages as patrolled (&lt;code&gt;patrol&lt;/code&gt;) and have their own page creations automatically marked as patrolled (&lt;code&gt;autopatrol&lt;/code&gt;). I am proposing both of the following:
* Curators can mark new pages as patrolled, helping on reducing the backlog of new, unpatrolled pages.
* New pages made by curators will be automatically marked as patrolled by the MediaWiki software.
Before we implement this, I would suggest implementing a proposed guideline for marking new pages as patrolled for curators and custodians.

Thoughts? [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 16:32, 17 April 2026 (UTC)

:Agree, &lt;s&gt;also can we also allow curators to undelete pages since they already have the rights to delete them?&lt;/s&gt; [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 02:54, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
::I think the requirement that undelete NOT be included came from above (meta / stewards / central office). Having access to the undelete page gives access to information that is restricted by their policies to admins (custodians and bureaucrats). -- [[User:Dave Braunschweig|Dave Braunschweig]] ([[User talk:Dave Braunschweig|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dave Braunschweig|contribs]]) 20:12, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
::: [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]], unless if requests for curator and custodian should be RfA-like processes (that is, including voting and comments), then I have to agree with Dave above. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 22:03, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
::::Oh, I didn’t realise that. Withdrawing my comment.. [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 00:08, 19 April 2026 (UTC)
:{{support}} Seems reasonable and would reduce overhead. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 14:35, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
:'''Agree''', implement it also to [[Wikiversity:Curators]] proposal please. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 17:11, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
: I went ahead and filed [[phab:T424445]]. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 15:39, 26 April 2026 (UTC)

== [[Wikiversity:Curators|Curators and curators policy]] ==
{{archive top|There is strong consensus, so [[Wikiversity:Curators]] is now a policy. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 11:15, 9 May 2026 (UTC)}}
How does it come, that Wikiversity has curators, but Curators policy is still being proposed? How do the curators exists and act if the policy about them havent been approved yet? [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 18:33, 16 October 2025 (UTC)

:It looks as if it is not just curators. The policy on Bureaucratship is still being proposed as well. See [[Wikiversity:Bureaucratship]]. —[[User:RailwayEnthusiast2025|&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Verdana; color:#008000; text-shadow:gray 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em;&quot;&gt;RailwayEnthusiast2025&lt;/span&gt;]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:RailwayEnthusiast2025|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#59a53f&quot;&gt;''talk with me!''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 18:33, 27 October 2025 (UTC)

:I think its just the nature of a small WMF sister project in that there are lots of drafts, gaps, and potential improvements. In this case, these community would need to vote on those proposed Wikiversity staff policies if we think they're ready. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 02:08, 3 December 2025 (UTC)
:What? I thought you were getting it approved, Juandev... :) [[User:I&amp;#39;m Mr. Chris|I&amp;#39;m Mr. Chris]] ([[User talk:I&amp;#39;m Mr. Chris|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/I&amp;#39;m Mr. Chris|contribs]]) 14:20, 12 February 2026 (UTC)
::Yeah I think this one is important too and we need to aprove it too @[[User:I'm Mr. Chris|I'm Mr. Chris]]. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 15:56, 12 February 2026 (UTC)
:::I thinks its ready to made into a policy, it seems to be complete and informative about what the rights does and how to get it. [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 03:08, 15 February 2026 (UTC)
::::Agree -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 11:00, 27 March 2026 (UTC)

Let's make this the official discussion about adopting the [[Wikiversity:Curators|curators policy]] policy. Your comments are invited and welcome. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 08:40, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
: There were two similar Colloquium threads in separate places about the proposed curators policy. So I've moved them to be adjacent. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 12:42, 1 May 2026 (UTC)
{{archive bottom}}

== Wikiversity:Curators to become a policy ==
{{archive top|There is strong consensus, so [[Wikiversity:Curators]] is now a policy. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 11:16, 9 May 2026 (UTC)}}
I've looked at the discussions about the Curators policy, I've looked at the practices, and it seems to me that there is no dispute about the wording of the policy, and what's more, the community has been using this proposal as if it were an offical policy for several years. Therefore, I propose that [[Wikiversity:Curators]] become a policy. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 18:35, 18 April 2026 (UTC)

:{{support}} —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 18:54, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
:{{support}} —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 20:21, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
: {{support|Yes, please}}. Especially after when I and PieWriter proposed above, I agree. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 14:27, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
:: @[[User:Juandev|Juandev]]; as of now, curators now have the user rights &lt;code&gt;autopatrol&lt;/code&gt; and &lt;code&gt;patrol&lt;/code&gt;. Perhaps we should also include that in [[Wikiversity:Custodianship]]? [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 12:07, 30 April 2026 (UTC)
:::You meant [[Wikiversity:Curators]] @[[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]]? [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 12:15, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
:::: I agree that we must develop what rules curators should follow when marking new pages as patrolled; the same can be added for custodians since they can also mark new pages as patrolled. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 13:37, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
:::::I see, well I think you can just add this to the policy. It is not major change and it probably reflects actual practice or actual technical possibilities for those flags. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 09:20, 7 May 2026 (UTC)
:{{support}} -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 12:42, 1 May 2026 (UTC)
:{{Support}} per nom. [[User:PhilDaBirdMan|PhilDaBirdMan]] ([[User talk:PhilDaBirdMan|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PhilDaBirdMan|contribs]]) 13:32, 1 May 2026 (UTC)
{{Archive bottom}}

== Inactive curators ==

Hello, even though [[Wikiversity:Curators]] is not a policy yet, there are curators listed here that have been inactive for two years or more:
* {{user|Cody naccarato}} (last edit on 13 Dec 2022, last logged action on 10 Dec 2022)
* {{user|Praxidicae}} (last edit on 10 Sep 2022, last logged action on 12 Sep 2022)
[[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 21:14, 19 April 2026 (UTC)

:Yup, I would remove the rights. To get the rights back if theyll come back should not be a big deal. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 20:08, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
:: When they don't reply by May 19, feel free (or any custodian) to do so. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 00:28, 25 April 2026 (UTC)

== Is anyone interested in Neurodiversity? ==

Is anyone interested in Neurodiversity? Is there anyone here who is interested for Neurodiversity to be &quot;something more&quot; than it already is? Does anyone here consider Neurodiversity one of the &quot;harder topics&quot; to work on or discuss? Does anyone here have an opinion about the [[Neurodiversity Movement]]? So these questions don't appear like &quot;out of a vacuum&quot; I can tell you a bit about my background:

Many years ago I got a psychiatric diagnosis &quot;Asperger's&quot;. After I stepped out of the office and my Äsperger's was 'concluded', I stepped out into the street and thought my first negative thought(but the positive thought followed after). The thought was about concentration camps in the second world war and that the world seemed to be going into the direction of &quot;labeling others&quot;. I was unsure whether this was &quot;real science&quot; and sort of &quot;challenged myself&quot; to make up my own mind after meeting people that had been given this diagnosis. The more adults with this diagnosis I met the more I started seeing &quot;patterns&quot;.

Was it a coincidence that the first person with Asperger's I met reminded me about my father later after I had plenty of times of experience with interacting with him? None of the people I interacted with online through IRC text chat...I felt I got any clue about how &quot;their brains work&quot;. Only when I met one person from the Asperger's chat community in person we both realized that whatever we experienced was akin to the &quot;chaos theory&quot;. He told me about &quot;chaos theory&quot; while I didn't know even what that term meant but I guess I 'read between the lines'. My question that I linger on still today is &quot;did he understand about me what I think I understood about him?&quot;? That our brains had the same configuration? Most autistic adults who meet other autistic adults usually get disappointed. They think the diagnosis will help them meet somebody like themselves and then they realize the great diversity in the autistic spectrum created by Psychiatry.

I later stopped interacting with autistic communities that much, I felt that it did not benefit me. Also Neurodiversity's &quot;neurotypes&quot; interested me for a while until I realized I had &quot;misunderstood everything&quot; about them and how they are used in the Neurodiversity Movement or &quot;Neurodiversity community&quot; if that even can precisely be defined? I doubt it but if you want to contribute to the [[Neurodiversity Movement]]. My previous attempts failed as I got more and more confused. I think a community project needs a community. With a lack of that I don't think it is worth my time. If any of you would like to work on that project let me know on my talk page.

So I was kinda lost and was talking to my friend and psychologist and I realized if I never talk about my idea to anyone in a &quot;comprehensive way&quot; or show that it matters to me nothing is going to ever happen. So I started talking about my &quot;idea&quot; more. Nobody could understand the &quot;idea&quot; because I had not developed my skills regarding where to start...although the process had already started &quot;automatically&quot; and that's why I often think of &quot;well my brain sort of activated me&quot;. I don't feel like I did have a plan and this idea happened. It happened &quot;by itself&quot;. My brain reacted to what I was seeing in a video or stream.

I value interaction highly in this idea. I think it would be helpful to make a community of people who are not paranoid about stuff that can express itself like &quot;don't analyze me!&quot;, &quot;don't compare me to anyone!&quot;. 

On the contrary, more often than not those adults who were diagnosed were actually openly comparing themselves with each other and I think that is healthy in a &quot;science&quot; way if done the &quot;right way&quot; which probably means &quot;Do no harm&quot;.

I found video material is important but I'm very unsure if uploading own video material to Wikimedia Commons would constitute a &quot;reasonable&quot; use of the resources there. Maybe somebody here needs to ask more questions to me that I should answer before that happens. I also know the '''be bold''' so I could just do what I think might be ok. Though I work better in a group as long as I know what &quot;group configurations&quot; help me. This is in a non-profit way. Since the state supported me this might be a way I am trying to &quot;give back&quot; to the state and &quot;the world&quot;. May seem overly ambitious and crazy but this thing gives me energy. It gives me hope when trying to develop this idea. [[User:ThinkingScience|ThinkingScience]] ([[User talk:ThinkingScience|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ThinkingScience|contribs]]) 10:47, 23 April 2026 (UTC)

:Thanks for sharing. There is plenty of room for neurodiversity community learning. However, the challenge I think is that the intersection of those interested in (a) ND, and (b) English Wikiversity might be very small (e.g., 1!) at this point in time.
:But don't give up hope. For example, Wikipedia has many more ND-interested editors; maybe consider reaching out to see who might be interested:
:[[w:Category:Wikipedians interested in neurodiversity]]
:You could also start an equivalent category here:
:[[:Category:Wikiversitarians interested in neurodiversity]] -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 04:46, 6 May 2026 (UTC)

== Request for comment (global AI policy) ==

&lt;bdi lang=&quot;en&quot; dir=&quot;ltr&quot; class=&quot;mw-content-ltr&quot;&gt;A [[:m:Requests for comment/Artificial intelligence policy|request for comment]] is currently being held to decide on a global AI policy. {{int:Feedback-thanks-title}} [[User:MediaWiki message delivery|MediaWiki message delivery]] ([[User talk:MediaWiki message delivery|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/MediaWiki message delivery|contribs]]) 00:58, 26 April 2026 (UTC)&lt;/bdi&gt;
&lt;!-- Message sent by User:Codename Noreste@metawiki using the list at https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Distribution_list/Global_message_delivery&amp;oldid=30424282 --&gt;

== Coming over From wikinews ==

Any chance someone could help me if you are allowed to write news articles here since wikinews is going read only mode soon, thank you! [[User:BigKrow|BigKrow]] ([[User talk:BigKrow|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/BigKrow|contribs]]) 22:43, 1 May 2026 (UTC)

:The scope of Wikiversity is very broad and is basically about more-or-less any learning material. We have made it a point to not have duplicative content of other WMF projects, but since Wikinews is being shuttered, I personally am fine with writing news articles here. One thing that is not controversial at all is a learning resource &lt;em&gt;about&lt;/em&gt; how to write news: that could be hugely useful here and could involve the process of writing news stories to learn and to share back and forth with an editor or fact-checker. In fact, I'd support an entire namespace dedicated to keeping the notion of Wikinews alive here. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 23:38, 1 May 2026 (UTC)
::Thank you so much! How do I start? Cheers! @[[User:Koavf|Koavf]] [[User:BigKrow|BigKrow]] ([[User talk:BigKrow|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/BigKrow|contribs]]) 01:07, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
:::I think it's premature to start just making news articles en masse, but if you want to start discussing the topic of citizen journalism, you can do that now. [[:Category:Journalism]] already has some material, so you can start by seeing what we already have, how you can refine that, etc. You can definitely have learning resources with collaborators who want to learn about journalism ASAP. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 01:24, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
::::thanks. [[User:BigKrow|BigKrow]] ([[User talk:BigKrow|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/BigKrow|contribs]]) 01:38, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
::::If I could try and start one News Article could you please tell me how to go about it? Like what style of writing like Wikinews or something else? Thank you Justin! @[[User:Koavf|Koavf]] [[User:BigKrow|BigKrow]] ([[User talk:BigKrow|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/BigKrow|contribs]]) 01:48, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
:::::Honestly, there are very few policies and guidelines here. I think the best way to write a news story would be in a manner that is obvious and instructive. So, for instance, it's common to use the &quot;pyramid style&quot; when you're writing news, so if you were to write a story that makes it very clear that you are using that approach, that would be helpful. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 02:08, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
::::::cool thanks. [[User:BigKrow|BigKrow]] ([[User talk:BigKrow|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/BigKrow|contribs]]) 02:13, 2 May 2026 (UTC)

== Language learning  ==

toki! I am trying to add or see what the toki pona language learning stuff on here is but I don't see anything that is language learning for anything. [[User:Jan Imon|Jan Imon]] ([[User talk:Jan Imon|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Jan Imon|contribs]]) 23:13, 2 May 2026 (UTC) —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 17:29, 3 May 2026 (UTC)

:We have language materials ([[:Category:Languages]], [[World Languages]], [[Portal:Foreign Language Learning]], [[Portal:Multilingual Studies]]). They are not as developed as I think we would all like and there's not any coverage of Toki Pona, but in principle, we could and would like that. You can also see [[:b:Subject:Languages]] at our sister project Wikibooks. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 17:33, 3 May 2026 (UTC)

== Timeline format? ==

I’ve been working on the World War II articles, including the [[World War II/Timeline|timeline]], and is there a specific timeline format that should be used? Right now it’s just a table, and there’s no separation between different periods/phases of the war.

I don’t want to use [[mw:Extension:EasyTimeline]] because this will be displaying dates and not time periods. [[User:PhilDaBirdMan|PhilDaBirdMan]] ([[User talk:PhilDaBirdMan|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PhilDaBirdMan|contribs]]) 01:35, 4 May 2026 (UTC)

:I dont think we have a policy or guideline, how to format a timeline. But you may try to browes wikiversity by Google if someone was dealing with this in the past somewhow @[[User:PhilDaBirdMan|PhilDaBirdMan]]. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 12:23, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
::+1 - there's no specific guideline on how to format a timeline, it's really up to you. In my opinion I think the timeline is good. I'd personally bold the dates just to make it easier to separate it from the event description, but that's my personal 2 cents. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 14:18, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
:::I’ll probably remove links to the dates/years, they’re just Wikipedia pages that shouldn’t be over linked to. [[User:PhilDaBirdMan|PhilDaBirdMan]] ([[User talk:PhilDaBirdMan|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PhilDaBirdMan|contribs]]) 00:39, 6 May 2026 (UTC)

== Interface administrator for Codename Noreste ==

Hello, everyone. I am requesting interface administrator access on this wiki.

The main reasoning is that I would benefit from having the user right &lt;code&gt;editinterface&lt;/code&gt;, which would allow me to make dark mode changes to pages in the MediaWiki namespace, add &lt;code&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;&lt;div class=&quot;mw-parser-output&quot;&gt;&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/code&gt; to some interface pages using templates, handle interface-protected edit requests, and similar stuff. Additionally, I have some knowledge of CSS, and I would like to assist with modifying CSS pages whenever necessary, such as moving MediaWiki common.css code to TemplateStyles CSS pages.

I am requesting the maximum time that is allowed per the [[Wikiversity:Interface administrators|policy]], and I have 2FA enabled on my account. Thank you. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 00:55, 6 May 2026 (UTC)

*{{support}} Globally trusted user. ―[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:black&quot;&gt;v&lt;/span&gt;f&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 01:07, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
*{{support}} Trusted and knowledgeable. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 04:35, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
*{{support}} WV would benefit from this. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 08:32, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
*{{support}} --[[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 09:13, 7 May 2026 (UTC)

:{{Comment}} Could @[[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] delete [[MediaWiki:Gadget-WikiSign.js]], which was requested to be deleted @[[User:Koavf|Justin]], @[[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]], @[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]]? I dont think we need it. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 07:40, 9 May 2026 (UTC)
::Yes - clearly no longer used -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 10:18, 9 May 2026 (UTC)
::: I can't delete it because I don't have the required permissions to do so.
::: On a side note, if this project has a need for permanent interface administrators, I would suggest that we have a minimum of two IAs, similar to how there must be two CUs and/or suppressors (or none). Maybe Koavf can be a good candidate if I am elected for permanent interface adminship, and I believe that permission shouldn't be removed from someone's own account. Instead, a bureaucrat should do it. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 13:20, 9 May 2026 (UTC)
::::I am willing and happy to do it, unfortunately, we do not have an appetite for indef IAs and just had a discussion that resulted in a [https://en.wikiversity.org/w/index.php?title=Wikiversity:Interface_administrators&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2807543 consensus that we can have IAs that have the user rights for 14 to 120 days]. So once you have the rights, please make sure to gopher it. ―[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:black&quot;&gt;v&lt;/span&gt;f&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 17:54, 9 May 2026 (UTC)
:::::@[[User:Koavf|Koavf]] give it time. Look at me, I was in favor of shorter time, now I am looking back to times, when custodians could do it without the need of extra flag. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 18:31, 9 May 2026 (UTC)
::::::Here's hoping. I think it would reduce administrative overhead, but that's just me and I'm not a bureaucrat here. ―[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:black&quot;&gt;v&lt;/span&gt;f&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 18:33, 9 May 2026 (UTC)
::::Complicated. Where are the times, admins could do everything! [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 18:27, 9 May 2026 (UTC)

== [[Wikiversity:Bureaucratship]] to become a policy ==

Following the recent approval of [[Wikiversity:Curators]] as a policy, I think [[Wikiversity:Bureaucratship]] may also be ready for policy status.

Please share your views about whether bureaucratship is ready to become a policy, or whether further revisions are needed.

-- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 13:58, 9 May 2026 (UTC)
: I added a logo about that user group, but other than that, it looks good to me. {{support}}. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 14:38, 9 May 2026 (UTC)
:I think that the consensus on this policy is proven by years of using it without further changes. But I I have to say weather I agree with this to become a policy, than of course {{support}}. It works and there were no major issues with it. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 18:45, 9 May 2026 (UTC)</text>
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== Requested update to [[Wikiversity:Interface administrators]] ==

Currently, [[Wikiversity:Interface administrators]] is a policy that includes a caveat that interface admins are not required long-term and that user right can only be added for a period of up to two weeks. I am proposing that we remove this qualification and allow for indefinite interface admin status. I think this is useful because there are reasons for tweaking the site CSS or JavaScript (e.g. to comply with dark mode), add gadgets (e.g. importing Cat-a-Lot, which I would like to do), or otherwise modifying the site that could plausibly come up on an irregular basis and requiring the overhead of a bureaucrat to add the user rights is inefficient. In particular, I am also going to request this right if the community accepts indefinite interface admins. Thoughts? —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 23:23, 17 August 2025 (UTC)

:And who will then monitor them to make sure they don't damage the project in any way, or abuse the rights acquired in this way? For large projects, this might not be a problem, but for smaller projects like the English Wikiversity, I'm not sure if there are enough users who would say, something is happening here that shouldn't be happening. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 10:28, 20 August 2025 (UTC)
::Anyone would be who. This argument applies to any person with any advanced rights here. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 10:46, 20 August 2025 (UTC)
:I think it is reasonable to allow for longer periods of access than 2 weeks to interface admin and support adjusting the policy to allow for this flexibility. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 04:57, 2 December 2025 (UTC)
::+1 —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 16:38, 25 January 2026 (UTC)
:@[[User:Koavf|Koavf]] I agree that the two-week requirement could be revised, but wouldn’t people just request access for a specific purpose anyway? Instead of granting indefinite access, they should request the specific time frame they need the rights for—until the planned fixes are completed—and then request an extension if more time is required. We could remove the two-week criterion while still keeping the access explicitly temporary. [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 02:48, 25 January 2026 (UTC)
::I just don't see why this wiki needs to be different than all of the others. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 07:18, 25 January 2026 (UTC)
:::There isn’t really much of a need for a permanent one at this point in time [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 09:53, 25 January 2026 (UTC)
:I quite agree with this proposal, so long as they perform the suggested changes as mentioned here. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 04:06, 26 January 2026 (UTC)
:: Just to clarify, I support '''indefinite interface admin status'''. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 18:34, 13 April 2026 (UTC)
:I think there is decent consensus for lengthening this, but not necessarily for indefinite permissions, so does anyone object to me revising it to the standard being 120 days instead of two weeks? I'll check back on this thread in three weeks and if there's no objection, I'll make the change. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 20:47, 13 April 2026 (UTC)
::Sure [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 23:27, 13 April 2026 (UTC)
::Thanks for proposing this, Justin. I agree with the proposal to lengthen the interface admin period from 2 weeks but not indefinitely. Can I check the source(s) for the standard being 120 days (I'm guessing policies on other projects or maybe global policy?)? In any case, I think it is reasonable for us to adopt a similar period. However, note on the current policy discussion page notes from @[[User:Dave Braunschweig|Dave Braunschweig]] arguing for shorter periods to lower risk, that's why it is 2 weeks. But if there are projects that need longer access, that should also be accommodated. Maybe we could adjust the policy to specify that ''interface admin rights can be given for 14 to 120 days depending on how long is required and what is supported by the community''. Sincerely, James -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 08:29, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
:::There was there was no source for 120: it was just more than 14 and less than infinity. The &quot;14 to 120&quot; also seems reasonable. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 14:33, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
::: On some small/medium-sized wikis, such as English Wikibooks and English Wikiquote for example, indefinite interface administrator access for administrators is allowed, but they tend not to make changes to the CSS and JS page changes unless it's truly necessary. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 14:34, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
:::It's a good idea to make the length of this right on request or allow to be prolonged. However, IA should test large changes somewhere else, for example on the en.wv mirror, and only after testing it on the mirror, adapt it to the live version. That means I can't imagine a time-consuming operation right now. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 20:04, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
::::Sorry, what mirror is this? Are you talking about beta.wv? —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 20:32, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
:::::Not beta.wv. Basically somewhere else then on a live wiki. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 20:59, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
:::::: Wouldn't testing on a user's own common.css page work anyway? [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 21:36, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
:Change made here: https://en.wikiversity.org/w/index.php?title=Wikiversity%3AInterface_administrators&amp;diff=2807543&amp;oldid=2806289 —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 13:35, 4 May 2026 (UTC)

== [[Template:AI-generated]] ==

After going through the plethora of ChatGPT-generated pages made by [[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]] (with many more pages to go), I'd like community input on this proposal to [[Wikiversity:Artificial intelligence]] that I think would be benefical for the community:
*Resources generated by AI '''must''' be indicated as so through the project box, [[Template:AI-generated]], on either the page or the main resource (if the page is a part of a project).
I do not believe including a small note/reference that a page is AI-generated is sufficient, and I take my thinking from [[WV:Original research|Wikiversity's OR policy]] for OR work: ''Within Wikiversity, all original research should be clearly identified as such''. I believe resources created from AI should also be clearly indicated as such, especially since we are working on whether or not AI-generated resources should be allowed on the website (discussion is [[Wikiversity talk:Artificial intelligence|here]], for reference). This makes it easier for organizational purposes, and in the event ''if'' we ban AI-generated work. 

I've left a message on Lee's talk page over a week ago and did not get a response or acknowledgement, so I'd like for the community's input for this inclusion to the policy. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 15:53, 26 January 2026 (UTC)

:I believe that existing Wikiversity policies are sufficient. Authors are responsible for the accuracy and usefulness of the content that is published. This policy covers AI-generated content that is: 1) carefully reviewed by the author publishing it, and 2) the source is noted.   [[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]] ([[User talk:Lbeaumont|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Lbeaumont|contribs]]) 19:38, 27 January 2026 (UTC)
::A small reference for pages that are substantially filled with Chat-GPT entries, like [[Real Good Religion]], [[Attributing Blame]], [[Fostering Curiosity]], are not sufficient IMO and a project box would be the best indicator that a page is AI-generated (especially when there is a mixture of human created content AND AI-generated content, as present in a lot of your pages). This is useful, especially considering the notable issues with AI (including hallucinations and fabrication of details), so viewers and support staff are aware. These small notes left on the pages are not as easily viewable as a project box or banner would be. I really don't see the issue with a clear-label guideline. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 22:34, 27 January 2026 (UTC)
::{{ping|Lbeaumont}} I noticed your reversions [https://en.wikiversity.org/w/index.php?title=Exploring_Existential_Concerns&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2788278 here] &amp; [https://en.wikiversity.org/w/index.php?title=Subjective_Awareness&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2788257 here]. I'd prefer to have a clean conversation regarding this proposition. Please voice your concerns here. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 15:53, 28 January 2026 (UTC)
:::Regarding Subjective Awareness, I distinctly recall the effort I went to to write that the old-fashioned way. It is true that ChatGPT assisted me in augmenting the list of words suggested as candidate subjective states. This is a small section of the course, is clearly marked, and makes no factual claim. Marking the entire course as AI-generated is misleading. I would have made these comments when I reverted your edit; however, the revert button does not provide that opportunity.
:::Regarding the Exploring Existential Concerns course, please note this was adapted from my EmotionalCompetency.com website, which predates the availability of LLMs. The course does include two links, clearly labeled as ChatGPT-generated. Again, marking the entire course as AI-generated is misleading.
:::On a broader issue, I don't consider your opinions to have established a carefully debated and adopted Wikiversity policy. You went ahead and modified many of my courses over my clearly stated objections. Please let this issue play out more completely before editing my courses further. Thanks.   [[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]] ([[User talk:Lbeaumont|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Lbeaumont|contribs]]) 15:11, 29 January 2026 (UTC)
::::Understood, and I respect your position. I apologize if my edits were seen as overarching. We could change the project box to &quot;a portion of this resource was generated by AI&quot;, or something along those lines. Feel free to revert my changes where you see fit, and I encourage more users to provide their input. EDIT: I've made changes to the template to indicate that a portion of the content has been generated from an LLM. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 15:50, 29 January 2026 (UTC)
:::::Thanks for this reply. The new banner is unduly large and alarming. There is no need for alarm here. The use of AI is not harmful per se. Like any technology, it can be used to help or to harm. I take care to craft prompts carefully, point the LMM to reliable source materials, and to carefully read and verify the generated text before I publish it. This is all in keeping with long-established Wikiversity policy. We don't want to use a  [[w:One-drop_rule|one-drop rule]] here or cause a [[w:Satanic_panic|satanic panic]]. We can learn our lessons from history here. I don't see any pedagogical reason for establishing a classification of &quot;AI generated&quot;, but if there is a consensus that it is needed, perhaps it can be handled as just another category that learning resources can be assigned to. I would rather focus on identifying any errors in factual claims than on casting pejorative bias toward AI-generated content. An essay on the best practices for using LMM on Wikiveristy would be welcome.   [[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]] ([[User talk:Lbeaumont|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Lbeaumont|contribs]]) 15:58, 30 January 2026 (UTC)
::::::The new banner mimics the banner that is available on the English Wikibooks (see [[b:Template:AI-generated]] &amp; [[b:Template:Uses AI]]), so my revisions aren't unique in this aspect. At this point, I'd welcome other peoples' inputs. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 19:40, 30 January 2026 (UTC)

== How do I start making pages? ==
Is there a notability guideline for Wikiversity? What is the sourcing policy for information? What is the Manual of Style? What kind of educational content qualifies for Wikiversity? All the introduction pages are a bit unclear. 
[[User:VidanaliK|VidanaliK]] ([[User talk:VidanaliK|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/VidanaliK|contribs]]) 02:25, 28 January 2026 (UTC)

:{{ping|VidanaliK}} Welcome to Wikiversity! I've left you a welcome message on your talk page. That should help you out. Make sure to especially look at [[Wikiversity:Introduction]]. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 03:11, 28 January 2026 (UTC)
::It says that I can't post more pages because I have apparently exceeded the new page limit. How long does it take before that new page limit expires? [[User:VidanaliK|VidanaliK]] ([[User talk:VidanaliK|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/VidanaliK|contribs]]) 16:57, 28 January 2026 (UTC)
:::This is a restriction for new users so that Wikiversity is not hit with massive spam. As for when this limit will expire, it should be a few days or after a certain number of edits. It's easy to overcome, though I do not have the exact numbers atm. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 15:08, 29 January 2026 (UTC)
::::OK, I think I got past the limit. [[User:VidanaliK|VidanaliK]] ([[User talk:VidanaliK|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/VidanaliK|contribs]]) 17:21, 29 January 2026 (UTC)
==Why does it feel like Wikiversity is no longer really active anymore?==
I've been looking at recent changes, and both today and yesterday there haven't been many changes that I haven't made; it feels like walking through a ghost town, is this just me or is Wikiversity not really active anymore? [[User:VidanaliK|VidanaliK]] ([[User talk:VidanaliK|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/VidanaliK|contribs]]) 03:54, 30 January 2026 (UTC)

:There is fewer people editing these days compared to the past. Many newcomers tend to edit in Wikipedia instead. [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 06:39, 30 January 2026 (UTC)
:It’s a little slow, but I’m happy to know that Wikiversity is a place that I think should provide value even if the activity of editors fluctuates. If it’s any consolation your edits may be encouraging for some anonymous newcomer to start edits on their own! I think it’s hard to build community when there is such a wide variety of interests and a smaller starting userbase. Also sometimes the getting into a particular topic that already exists can be intimidating because some relics (large portals, school, categories, etc.) have intricate, unique and generally messy levels of organization. [[User:IanVG|IanVG]] ([[User talk:IanVG|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/IanVG|contribs]]) 22:16, 9 March 2026 (UTC)
:I'd say it comes down to working hard for Wikiversity, basically if somebody or a group of people will start presenting good ideas and they turn out to be provably stable.
:I even asked Google's &quot;AI Mode&quot;, what is Wikiversity famous for? Unfortunately it could not answer that.
:Simply, we have not made Wikiversity famous by presenting really provable stable ideas yet. My hope is that this time might come. Perhaps even this year 2026!
:Hope dies last. [[User:ThinkingScience|ThinkingScience]] ([[User talk:ThinkingScience|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ThinkingScience|contribs]]) 10:12, 27 April 2026 (UTC)

== Inactivity policy for Curators ==

I was wondering if there is a specific inactivity polity for curators (semi-admins) as I am pretty sure the global policy does not apply to them as they are not ''fully'' sysops. [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 03:20, 15 February 2026 (UTC)

:Unfortunately, I don't see an inactivity policy, but if we were to create such a new policy for curators, it should be the same for custodians (administrators). [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 18:45, 15 February 2026 (UTC)
::@[[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] There is currently none, that I could find, for custodians either. [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 00:47, 17 February 2026 (UTC)
:::I think we should propose a local inactivity policy for custodians (and by extension, curators), which should be at least one year without any edits ''and'' logged actions. However, I don't know which page should it be when the inactivity removal procedure starts. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 00:53, 17 February 2026 (UTC)
::::@[[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] In theory, there should be a section added at [[WV:Candidates for custodianship]] [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 00:55, 17 February 2026 (UTC)
::::: To be consistent with the [[meta:Admin activity review|global period of 2 years inactivity]] for en.wv  [[Wikiversity:Custodianship#Notes|Custodians]] and [[Wikiversity:Bureaucratship#How are bureaucrats removed?|Bureaucrats]] we could add something like this to [[Wikiversity:Curators]]:
::::::The maximum time period of inactivity &lt;u&gt;without community review&lt;/u&gt; for curators is two years (consistent with  the [[:meta:Category:Global policies|global policy]] described at [[meta:Admin activity review|Admin activity review]] which applies for [[Wikiversity:Custodianship#Notes|Custodians]] and [[Wikiversity:Bureaucratship|Bureaucrats]]). After that time a custodian will remove the rights.
::::: -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 10:51, 27 March 2026 (UTC)
:::::Yup, I agree with Jtneill, there is a policy proposal for Wikiversity:Curators, where it should be logically deployed. The question is if we are ready to aprove the policy. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 17:43, 17 April 2026 (UTC)
:::::: I agree, but we should notify the colloquium about inactive curators, just like a steward would do for inactive custodians and bureaucrats per [[:m:Admin activity review|AAR]]. What is the minimum timeframe an inactive curator should receive so they can respond they would keep their rights? [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 17:49, 17 April 2026 (UTC)
:I incorporated these suggestions into the proposed curators policy. Please review/comment/improve. Summary: 2 years, notify curator's user page, then remove rights after 1 month: [[Wikiversity:Curators#Inactivity]]. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 08:59, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
:: @[[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] I created [[Template:Inactive curator]] for this. Feel free to make any changes or improvements. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 14:29, 24 April 2026 (UTC)

== [[Wikiversity:Artificial intelligence]] to become an official policy ==
{{Archive top|After running for a week, there is consensus, alongside comments, for [[Wikiversity:Artificial intelligence]] to be implemented as an official policy. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 23:27, 17 April 2026 (UTC)}}
With the introduction of AI-material, and some material just plain disruptive, its imperative that Wikiversity catches up with its sister projects and implements an official AI policy that we can work with. The recent issue of [[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]]'s 50+ articles that contain significantly large AI-generated material has made me came to the Colloquium. This user has also been removing the [[Template:AI-generated]] template from their pages, calling it &quot;misleading&quot;, &quot;alarmist&quot;, and &quot;pejorative&quot; - which is all just simply nonsensical rationales. Not to even mention this user's contributions to the English Wikipedia have been [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Inner_Development_Goals contested] and [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Multipolar_trap removed] a couple of times (for being low-quality and clearly LLM-generated), highlighting the need for an actual policy to be implemented here on Wikiversity. I would like to ping {{ping|Juandev}} and {{ping|Jtneill}} for their thoughts as well, since I'd like this to be implemented as soon as possible. 

Wikiversity has a significant issue with implementing anti-disruptive measures, hence why we have received numerous complaints as a community about our quality. I originally was reverting the removal of the templates, but realized that this is still a proposed policy, which it shouldn't be anymore. It should be a recognized Wikiversity policy. 14:54, 10 March 2026 (UTC) —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 14:54, 10 March 2026 (UTC)

:@[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] '''I agree''' that the draft, should become official policy. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 17:00, 10 March 2026 (UTC)
:I provided a detailed response at: [[Wikiversity talk:Artificial intelligence#Evolving a Wikiversity policy on AI]]
:I will appreaciate it if you consder that carefully. [[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]] ([[User talk:Lbeaumont|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Lbeaumont|contribs]]) 22:49, 10 March 2026 (UTC)
:Agree it should become official Wikiversity policy on the condition &lt;u&gt;that point point 5 is about [significant/substantial] LLM-generated text specifically&lt;/u&gt;. Not a good idea to overuse it, it should be added when there is substantial AI-generated text on the page, not for other cases. [[User:Prototyperspective|Prototyperspective]] ([[User talk:Prototyperspective|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Prototyperspective|contribs]]) 12:37, 11 March 2026 (UTC)
:What policy is being debated? Is it the text on this page, which is pointed to by the general banner, or the text at:   [[Wikiversity:Artificial intelligence|Wikiversity:Artificial intelligence,]]   which is pointed to by the specific banner? Let's begin with coherence on the text being debated. Thanks!  [[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]] ([[User talk:Lbeaumont|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Lbeaumont|contribs]]) 11:49, 17 March 2026 (UTC)
::@[[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]] This is a call for approval of the new Wikiversity policy. You expressed your opinion [[Wikiversity talk:Artificial intelligence#Evolving a Wikiversity policy on AI|on the talk page of the proposal]], I replied to you and await your response.When creating policies, it is necessary to propose specific solutions. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 14:12, 17 March 2026 (UTC)
:::Toward a Justified and Parsimonious AI Policy 
:::As we collaborate to develop a consensus policy on the use of Large Language Models, it is wise to begin by considering the needs of the various stakeholders to the policy.
:::The stakeholders are:
:::1)     The users, 
:::2)     The source providers, and
:::3)     The editors
:::There may also be others with a minor stake in this policy, including the population at large.
:::The many needs of the users are currently addressed by long-standing [[Wikiversity:Policies|Wikiversity policies]], so we can focus on what, if any, additional needs arise as LLMs are deployed. 
:::As always, users need assurance that propositional statements are accurate. This is covered by the existing policy on [[Wikiversity:Verifiability|verifiably]]. In addition, it is expected by both the users and those that provide materials used as sources for the text are [[Wikiversity:Cite sources|accurately attributed]]. This is also covered by [[Wikiversity:Cite sources|existing policies]].
:::To respect the time and effort of editors, a parsimonious policy will unburden editors from costly requirements that exceed benefits to the users.
:::Finally, it is important to recognize that because attention is our most valuable seizing attention unnecessarily is a form of theft. 
:::The following proposed policy statement results from these considerations:
:::Recommended Policy statement:
:::·       Editors [[Wikiversity:Verifiability|verify the accuracy]] of propositional statements, regardless of the source.
:::·       Editors [[Wikiversity:Cite sources|attribute the source]] of propositional statements. In the case of LLM, cite the LLM model and the prompt used.
:::·       Use of various available templates to mark the use of LLM are optional. Templates that are flexible in noting the type and extend of LLM usage are preferred. Templates that avoid unduly distracting or alarming the user are preferred. [[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]] ([[User talk:Lbeaumont|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Lbeaumont|contribs]]) 19:56, 19 March 2026 (UTC)
::::Do we discuss here or there? I have replied you there as your proposal is about that policy so it is tradition to discuss it at the affected talk page. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 21:59, 19 March 2026 (UTC)
: {{support}} Thanks for the proposed policy development and discussion; also note proposed policy talk page discussion: [[Wikiversity talk:Artificial intelligence]] -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 12:05, 24 March 2026 (UTC)
::I think the Wikiversity AI policy shall be official. – [[User:RestoreAccess111|RestoreAccess111]] &lt;sup style=&quot;font-family:Arimo, Arial;&quot;&gt;[[User talk:RestoreAccess111|Talk!]]&lt;/sup&gt; &lt;sup style=&quot;font-family:Times New Roman, Tinos;&quot;&gt;[[Special:Contributions/RestoreAccess111|Watch!]]&lt;/sup&gt; 06:11, 13 April 2026 (UTC)
{{archive bottom}}

== New titles for user right nominations ==
&lt;div class=&quot;cd-moveMark&quot;&gt;''Moved from [[Wikiversity talk:Candidates for Custodianship#New titles for user right nominations]].  [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 23:20, 17 April 2026 (UTC)''&lt;/div&gt;

I would like to propose the following retitles should a user be nominated for any of the following user rights:
* Curator: Candidates for Curatorship
* Bureaucrat: Candidates for Bureaucratship
The reason is that many curator (and probably bureaucrat) requests have run solely under {{tq|Candidates for Custodianship}}, but that title might sound misleading (especially in regards to the permission a user is requesting). CheckUser and Oversight (suppressor) are not included above since no user was nominated for these sensitive permissions, probably. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 01:30, 19 March 2026 (UTC)

:And it's not that when someone at the beginning misplaced the request, no one thought to move it and the others copied it. Even today, it would be possible to simply take it all and move it. Otherwise, for me, the more fundamental problem is that there is [[Wikiversity:Curators|no approved policy for curators]] than where the requests are based. Curators then operate in a certain vacuum and if one of them &quot;breaks out of the chain&quot;, the average user doesn't have many transparent tools to deal with it, because there is no policy. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 07:02, 19 March 2026 (UTC)
::I am not talking about the curator page (policy proposal). [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 19:08, 21 March 2026 (UTC)
: @[[User:Juandev|Juandev]] I'll see if I can do an overhaul of [[Wikiversity:Candidates for Custodianship]], just like I recently did with the Requests for adminship page on English Wikiquote. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 22:17, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
:Yes, great idea - ideally there will be separate &quot;Candidates for ...&quot; pages for each user right group. The most important for now is to separate curator and custodian pages as CN suggests. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 11:39, 1 May 2026 (UTC)
:So maybe I previously misunderstood. Are you proposing separated pages for nominations (i.e. [[Wikiversity:Candidates for Curatorship]], [[Wikiversity:Candidates for Bureaucratship]], [[Wikiversity:Candidates for Custodianship]])? [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 12:30, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
:: Yes. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 13:33, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
:::I see, then I am fine with that @[[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]]. Sorry for misunderstanding. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 18:35, 9 May 2026 (UTC)

I've split the user rights nomination pages into:
* [[Wikiversity:Candidates for CheckUser]]
* [[Wikiversity:Candidates for Curatorship]]
* [[Wikiversity:Candidates for Custodianship]]
* [[Wikiversity:Candidates for Bureaucratship]]

Please review. There are likely several links to update, text to adjust, categories to manage, short-cuts to fix etc. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 04:22, 10 May 2026 (UTC)

:Thanks, great job @[[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]]. I am wondering if we need to move archived nominations too, or if we are OK with the actual state. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 08:08, 10 May 2026 (UTC)

== Technical Request:  Courtesy link.. ==

[[Template_talk:Information#Background_must_have_color_defined_as_well]] [[User:ShakespeareFan00|ShakespeareFan00]] ([[User talk:ShakespeareFan00|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ShakespeareFan00|contribs]]) 11:43, 20 March 2026 (UTC)
: I can't edit the template directly as it need an sysop/interface admin to do it. [[User:ShakespeareFan00|ShakespeareFan00]] ([[User talk:ShakespeareFan00|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ShakespeareFan00|contribs]]) 11:43, 20 March 2026 (UTC)
:: Also if the Template field of - https://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Special:LintErrors/night-mode-unaware-background-color is examined, there is poential for an admin to clear a substantial proportion of these by implmenting a simmilar fix to the indciated templates (and underlying stylesheets). It would be nice to clear things like Project box and others, as many other templates (and thus pages depend on them.) :)
[[User:ShakespeareFan00|ShakespeareFan00]] ([[User talk:ShakespeareFan00|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ShakespeareFan00|contribs]]) 11:43, 20 March 2026 (UTC)

:I think it would be best to grant you interface admin rights for a short period of time to make these changes. However, I still have doubts about the suitability of this solution, which may cause other problems and no one has explained to me why dark mode has to be implemented this way @[[User:ShakespeareFan00|ShakespeareFan00]]. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 20:43, 20 March 2026 (UTC)

: I would have reservations about holding such rights, which is why I was trying to do what I could without needing them. However if it is the only way to get the required changes made, I would suggest asking on Wikipedia to find technical editors, willing to undertake the changes needed. [[User:ShakespeareFan00|ShakespeareFan00]] ([[User talk:ShakespeareFan00|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ShakespeareFan00|contribs]]) 09:32, 21 March 2026 (UTC)

== WikiEducator has closed ==

Some of you may know of a similar project to Wikiversity, called [https://wikieducator.org/Main_Page WikiEducator], championed by [https://oerfoundation.org/about/staff/wayne-mackintosh/ Wayne Mackintosh][https://www.linkedin.com/posts/waynemackintosh_important-notice-about-the-oer-foundation-activity-7405113051688931329-Nhm9/][https://openeducation.nz/killed-not-starved/].

It seems [https://openeducation.nz/terminating-oer-foundation their foundation has closed] and they are no longer operating.

They had done quite a bit of outreach (e.g., in the Pacific and Africa) to get educators using wiki.

The WikiEducator content is still available in MediaWiki - and potentially could be imported to Wikiversity ([https://wikieducator.org/WikiEducator:Copyrights CC-BY-SA] is the default license).

The closing of WikiEducator arguably makes the nurturing of Wikiversity even more important.

-- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 02:09, 1 April 2026 (UTC)

:I was never active there. If anyone has an account or is otherwise in contact, we may want to copy relevant information here or even at [[:outreach:]]. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 04:46, 1 April 2026 (UTC)

:: I reached out to [[User:Mackiwg~enwikiversity|Wayne]] in January, and he responded briefly but positively (while travelling).  I wrote to the low-traffic wikieducator mailing list today and got a nice [https://groups.google.com/g/wikieducator/c/r_yIyUw6ZIA reply] from [[user:SteveFoerster|Steve Foerster]] who's interested in helping. If we can figure out a migration path it would be great to adopt at least the main namespace pages here.  
:: A few questions that come to mind: 
:: - would people want to create matching user accounts
:: - are there any namespaces (user/talk?) that should not be moved over
:: We could look at how this was done for the [[m:Wikivoyage/Migration]] wikivoyage migration. &lt;span style=&quot;padding:0 2px 0 2px;background-color:white;color:#bbb;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash;[[User:Sj|SJ]][[User Talk:Sj|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#ff9900;&quot;&gt;+&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 04:27, 1 May 2026 (UTC)
:::That's fantastic, SJ, that you've reached out and that Wayne, Steve, and Jim are receptive—and that you can help! -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 11:52, 1 May 2026 (UTC)

== Wikinews is ending ==

Apparently mainly due to low editorial activity, low public interest, but also failure to achieve the goals from the proposal for the creation of the project, the Wikinews project is ending after years of discussions ([[Meta:Proposal for Closing Wikinews|some reading]]).

And I would be interested to see how Wikiversity is doing in the monitored metrics. We probably have more editors than Wikinews had, but what about consumers and achieving the goals? [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 19:14, 1 April 2026 (UTC)

:Wikiversity's biggest issue in recent times was the hosting of low-quality, trash content. Thankfully we've done a great job in removing pseudoscience and other embarrassingly trash content (Wikidebates, for example), but the biggest concern moving forward is proper maintenance IMO. I've caught several pseudoscience pages being created within the last few months that could easily have flown under the radar (ex, [[The Kelemen Dilemma: Causal Collapse and Axiomatic Instability]]), so I'd urge our custodians/curators to be on the lookout for this type of content. Usually an AI-overview can point this type of content out relatively well.
:In terms of visibility, I believe Wikiversity is a high-traffic project. I remember my [[Mathematical Properties]] showing up on the first page of Google when searching up &quot;math properties&quot; for the longest time (and is still showing up in the first page 'till this day!). Besides, Wikinews hosted a lot of short-term content (the nature of news articles), while Wikiversity hosts content that can still be useful a decade later (ex, [[A Reader's Guide to Annotation]]). 
:I think we are on a better path than we were a few months ago, and I do want to thank everyone here who has been helping out with maintaining our website! —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 20:48, 1 April 2026 (UTC)
:For what it's worth, the group that did that study has since disbanded, so no one is monitoring the other sister projects in the same way. Additionally, Wikinews had some catastrophic server issues due to the maintenance of [[:m:Extension:DynamicPageList]] which don't apply here. Your questions are still worth addressing, but I just wanted to cut off any concern at the pass about Wikiversity being in the same precarious situation. Wikiversity is definitely the biggest &quot;lagging behind&quot; or &quot;failure&quot; project now that Wikinews is being shuttered, but I don't see any near- or medium-term pathway to closing Wikiversity. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 00:46, 2 April 2026 (UTC)

:[[w:en:Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2026-03-31/News and notes|Entirety of Wikinews to be shut down]] (Wikipedia Signpost) -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 02:03, 11 April 2026 (UTC)

== Action Required: Update templates/modules for electoral maps (Migrating from P1846 to P14226) ==

Hello everyone,

This is a notice regarding an ongoing data migration on Wikidata that may affect your election-related templates and Lua modules (such as &lt;code&gt;Module:Itemgroup/list&lt;/code&gt;).

'''The Change:'''&lt;br /&gt;
Currently, many templates pull electoral maps from Wikidata using the property [[:d:Property:P1846|P1846]], combined with the qualifier [[:d:Property:P180|P180]]: [[:d:Q19571328|Q19571328]]. 

We are migrating this data (across roughly 4,000 items) to a newly created, dedicated property: '''[[:d:Property:P14226|P14226]]'''.

'''What You Need To Do:'''&lt;br /&gt;
To ensure your templates and infoboxes do not break or lose their maps, please update your local code to fetch data from [[:d:Property:P14226|P14226]] instead of the old [[:d:Property:P1846|P1846]] + [[:d:Property:P180|P180]] structure. A [[m:Wikidata/Property Migration: P1846 to P14226/List|list of pages]] was generated using Wikimedia Global Search.

'''Deadline:'''&lt;br /&gt;
We are temporarily retaining the old data on [[:d:Property:P1846|P1846]] to allow for a smooth transition. However, to complete the data cleanup on Wikidata, the old [[:d:Property:P1846|P1846]] statements will be removed after '''May 1, 2026'''. Please update your modules and templates before this date to prevent any disruption to your wiki's election articles.

Let us know if you have any questions or need assistance with the query logic. Thank you for your help! [[User:ZI Jony|ZI Jony]] using [[User:MediaWiki message delivery|MediaWiki message delivery]] ([[User talk:MediaWiki message delivery|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/MediaWiki message delivery|contribs]]) 17:11, 3 April 2026 (UTC)
&lt;!-- Message sent by User:ZI Jony@metawiki using the list at https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Distribution_list/Non-Technical_Village_Pumps_distribution_list&amp;oldid=29941252 --&gt;
:I didnt find such properties, so we are probably fine. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 21:00, 12 April 2026 (UTC)
:: +1 (agreed). [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 22:19, 12 April 2026 (UTC)

== Enable the abuse filter block action? ==

In light of [[Special:AbuseLog/80178]] (coupon spam), I would like to propose enabling the block action for the abuse filter. Only custodians will be able to enable and disable that action on an abuse filter, and it is useful to block ongoing vandalism. Thoughts? [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 19:12, 13 April 2026 (UTC)

:Seems like a good idea, almost all of the users which create such pages are spambots so this shouldn’t be a problem. [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 23:41, 13 April 2026 (UTC)
:Can you explain some more (I am new to abuse filters)? It looks like the attempted edit was prevented? Which abuse filter?
:Note on your suggestion, have also reactivated Antispam Filter 12 - see [[WV:RCA]]. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 10:45, 15 April 2026 (UTC)
:: I am proposing that we activate the abuse filter block action, which if a user triggers an abuse filter, it would actually block the user in question - the same mechanism that a custodian would use to block users. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 13:11, 15 April 2026 (UTC)
:::OK, thankyou, that makes sense. And, reviewing the abuse filter 12 log, it would be helpful because it would prevent the need for manual blocking. But I don't see a setting for autoblocking? -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 23:14, 15 April 2026 (UTC)
:::: I think it probably adds an autoblock. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 00:43, 16 April 2026 (UTC)
: [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] and [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]], given that a little bit more than a week has passed and there is minimal consensus to activate the abuse filter block action, I filed [[phab:T424053]]. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 15:05, 21 April 2026 (UTC)
::Thank-you for doing this. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 08:03, 24 April 2026 (UTC)

== Advice needed: A Neurodiversity-inspired Idea/observation ==

If I want the greatest participation of others to &quot;provide constructive criticism to my idea&quot; or to &quot;shoot down my idea&quot; or &quot;idea&quot;.

What I've called it so far is &quot;The Neurodiversity-inspired Idea&quot;. At other times I used more sensationalist wording but here on Wikiversity I don't dare do that. I actually woke up with thinking about putting this into my userspace draft: &quot;Personal Observations Made By Meeting Autistic and Non-Autistic Adults&quot;.

My ultimate goal is to stop blathering about my &quot;idea&quot; to friend and family without feeling my &quot;methodology&quot; is going into any progressive direction whatsoever. My latest encounter was somewhat constructive though. A friend of a friend who worked with people presenting ideas in attempting to getting grants. I don't want a grant. I just want to figure out how I can express my &quot;idea&quot; in a way so that I can more clearly figure out what flaws it got.

At the same time I tend to overthink. If anyone thinks etherpad might be a good place and considering Wikimedia already got an etherpad at https://etherpad.wikimedia.org/ if anyone feels like they know me better in the future feel free to suggest a &quot;session&quot; on etherpad.

'''If I don't receive a reply to this in 1 week's time I will begin to explore this &quot;idea&quot; into my userspace''' unless you replied and refrained me from doing so, of course. Then maybe after &quot;developing it there&quot; I might reference it to you another future time here in the Colloquium, with my &quot;idea&quot; still in my userspace draft. This &quot;idea&quot; is sort of a burden, I'm happy I've made the choice to get rid of it and hopefully move on with my life, unless there is something to this &quot;idea&quot;. 

My failure is probably evident: I feel I haven't told you anything. Same happened to when I talked to friends and family. In danger of overthinking it further I'll publish this right now. I need to &quot;keep it together&quot; [[User:ThinkingScience|ThinkingScience]] ([[User talk:ThinkingScience|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ThinkingScience|contribs]]) 10:36, 16 April 2026 (UTC)

:Good on you putting it out there ... and hitting publish :). I'd say go for it (no need to wait), give birth to your idea and share about it here and elsewhere. Let it take shape and see where it might go. In many ways, this is exactly what an open collaborative learning community should be doing. Others might not know well how to respond, so perhaps consider creating some questions to accompany the idea. Sincerely, James -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 11:21, 16 April 2026 (UTC)
::Thank you for encouraging me in developing the idea.
::I have created a &quot;questions&quot; section in the draft which is visible in the table of contents now. My brain was &quot;frozen&quot; today metaphorically speaking in that I felt I had like a &quot;writer's block&quot; so the draft has more &quot;AI/LLM&quot; content than before. I used the LLM for generating questions. The answers are so far human-only.
::I've also created a subsection where I could add the prompts that made the LLM generate the questions. That could help people make better prompts perhaps. I've described what it is about inside of it and there are some chaotically written notes.
::[[Draft:The_Neurodiversity-inspired_Idea#Questions_that_might_encourage_the_development_of_this_idea_and_its_methodology]]
::My draft is missing stuff. Any questions that you contribute to my draft will probably help me and if I don't understand the questions I'll probably notify you and also at the same time &quot;feed them&quot; to an LLM and ask in my input like &quot;explain in simple words what this question means, what is it searching for?&quot; etc. while I wait for an answer. If you have any more feedback please give it to me here or on the Draft page, its talk page or my user talk page. Thank you for helping me! [[User:ThinkingScience|ThinkingScience]] ([[User talk:ThinkingScience|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ThinkingScience|contribs]]) 21:20, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
::Today I woke up with not only thinking about supplying questions along with the &quot;idea&quot; but also answers. ie. Is it possible to &quot;test&quot; this idea? Is it possible to create one or multiple hypotheses based on this &quot;idea&quot;?(etc.) I've thought about this before in this &quot;idea&quot; but since I'm beginning to add to Wikiversity what was previously 'locked in my mind' it's also easier for me to see what I've done so far. Thank you for this comment! [[User:ThinkingScience|ThinkingScience]] ([[User talk:ThinkingScience|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ThinkingScience|contribs]]) 09:11, 23 April 2026 (UTC)
:May I think that you should not add deadlines ; being read, and rising interest for collaboration, or even simply for exchange of thoughts, such an effective meeting event loads a huge bunch of unprobability, which time can help to… somehow diminish. Maybe, I would advice you having a central place for developping your ideas, your needs, your advances, maybe a page in your own user zone, and from time to time, depending your feeling, it could be every trimester or so, or more frequently, you could write a short account of progress (or even of no progress), or a call for participation, in such a place as this present one ; I think that will increase much exposure of your projet. Maybe also, if you can find a project name, not necessarily very meaningfull by itseilf (at least it will gain signification with time, as your project develops), that will serve as a kind-of hook, and make your announcement titles more visible. Best regards (and my excuses for my poor command of English, which seems to be unplease an anti-abuse filter, &quot;Questionable Language (profanity)&quot;, which I don't understand…). My few cents. --  [[User:Eric.LEWIN|Eric.LEWIN]] ([[User talk:Eric.LEWIN|discussion]] • [[Special:Contributions/Eric.LEWIN|contributions]]) 10:06, 17 April 2026 (UTC)
::Sorry about the false positive on the profanity filter - I've fixed it. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 10:26, 17 April 2026 (UTC)
:::&quot;May I think that you should not add deadlines ; being read, and rising interest for collaboration, or even simply for exchange of thoughts, such an effective meeting event loads a huge bunch of unprobability, which time can help to… somehow diminish.&quot;
::Thank you Eric for this comment. Trust in time is how I interpret it. I should not feel like I need to be in a hurry. I'll try to give this time. Thank you!
:::&quot;Maybe, I would advice you having a central place for developping your ideas, your needs, your advances, maybe a page in your own user zone, and from time to time, depending your feeling, it could be every trimester or so, or more frequently, you could write a short account of progress (or even of no progress), or a call for participation, in such a place as this present one ; I think that will increase much exposure of your projet.&quot;
::A central place for developing or making &quot;project notes&quot; regarding the Neurodiversity idea on my userspace, I might need that, like a diary or &quot;project notes&quot; of the Neurodiversity idea similar to my course notes regarding my experience with Coursera.
::Any actions I take are going to be related to my Userspace from now on but I'll also update the draft when necessary. Now in the beginning I might be working daily to once every 3 days on both the draft and the daily notes I plan to make.
:::&quot;Maybe also, if you can find a project name, not necessarily very meaningfull by itseilf (at least it will gain signification with time, as your project develops), that will serve as a kind-of hook, and make your announcement titles more visible.&quot;
::Thank you for the advice. I was brainstorming yesterday about it. I concluded that since I've not yet developed a methodology that adheres to &quot;Do no harm&quot; and this is my first time working my &quot;idea&quot; into a way that is compatible with how projects develop on English Wikiversity this is new to me. My methodology isn't developed and therefore trying to get attention to my project through a name can wait. Yesterday I figured out a silly title that has nothing to do with the project: &quot;Planetary Awareness Potato Cabbage Rolls&quot; or something like that. Google output read that no such thing exists so I wanted it mainly to be unique. I don't want to raise attention that I'm unsure whether I'll actually be capable of developing a methodology for but project notes is my best bet so far in tracking my progress. Every day I think about this &quot;idea&quot; but I need to improve the important parts.
:::&quot;Best regards (and my excuses for my poor command of English, which seems to be unplease an anti-abuse filter, &quot;Questionable Language (profanity)&quot;, which I don't understand…). My few cents.&quot;
::You added great points and I felt that I was helped by you! I encourage you to post again and I can understand that interacting with any kind of automated filter can be discouraging and can be for me too! Thank you for giving me feedback! [[User:ThinkingScience|ThinkingScience]] ([[User talk:ThinkingScience|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ThinkingScience|contribs]]) 16:01, 18 April 2026 (UTC)

== Add some user rights to the curator user group? ==

By default, only custodians have the ability to mark new pages as patrolled (&lt;code&gt;patrol&lt;/code&gt;) and have their own page creations automatically marked as patrolled (&lt;code&gt;autopatrol&lt;/code&gt;). I am proposing both of the following:
* Curators can mark new pages as patrolled, helping on reducing the backlog of new, unpatrolled pages.
* New pages made by curators will be automatically marked as patrolled by the MediaWiki software.
Before we implement this, I would suggest implementing a proposed guideline for marking new pages as patrolled for curators and custodians.

Thoughts? [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 16:32, 17 April 2026 (UTC)

:Agree, &lt;s&gt;also can we also allow curators to undelete pages since they already have the rights to delete them?&lt;/s&gt; [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 02:54, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
::I think the requirement that undelete NOT be included came from above (meta / stewards / central office). Having access to the undelete page gives access to information that is restricted by their policies to admins (custodians and bureaucrats). -- [[User:Dave Braunschweig|Dave Braunschweig]] ([[User talk:Dave Braunschweig|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dave Braunschweig|contribs]]) 20:12, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
::: [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]], unless if requests for curator and custodian should be RfA-like processes (that is, including voting and comments), then I have to agree with Dave above. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 22:03, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
::::Oh, I didn’t realise that. Withdrawing my comment.. [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 00:08, 19 April 2026 (UTC)
:{{support}} Seems reasonable and would reduce overhead. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 14:35, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
:'''Agree''', implement it also to [[Wikiversity:Curators]] proposal please. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 17:11, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
: I went ahead and filed [[phab:T424445]]. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 15:39, 26 April 2026 (UTC)

== [[Wikiversity:Curators|Curators and curators policy]] ==
{{archive top|There is strong consensus, so [[Wikiversity:Curators]] is now a policy. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 11:15, 9 May 2026 (UTC)}}
How does it come, that Wikiversity has curators, but Curators policy is still being proposed? How do the curators exists and act if the policy about them havent been approved yet? [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 18:33, 16 October 2025 (UTC)

:It looks as if it is not just curators. The policy on Bureaucratship is still being proposed as well. See [[Wikiversity:Bureaucratship]]. —[[User:RailwayEnthusiast2025|&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Verdana; color:#008000; text-shadow:gray 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em;&quot;&gt;RailwayEnthusiast2025&lt;/span&gt;]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:RailwayEnthusiast2025|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#59a53f&quot;&gt;''talk with me!''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 18:33, 27 October 2025 (UTC)

:I think its just the nature of a small WMF sister project in that there are lots of drafts, gaps, and potential improvements. In this case, these community would need to vote on those proposed Wikiversity staff policies if we think they're ready. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 02:08, 3 December 2025 (UTC)
:What? I thought you were getting it approved, Juandev... :) [[User:I&amp;#39;m Mr. Chris|I&amp;#39;m Mr. Chris]] ([[User talk:I&amp;#39;m Mr. Chris|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/I&amp;#39;m Mr. Chris|contribs]]) 14:20, 12 February 2026 (UTC)
::Yeah I think this one is important too and we need to aprove it too @[[User:I'm Mr. Chris|I'm Mr. Chris]]. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 15:56, 12 February 2026 (UTC)
:::I thinks its ready to made into a policy, it seems to be complete and informative about what the rights does and how to get it. [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 03:08, 15 February 2026 (UTC)
::::Agree -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 11:00, 27 March 2026 (UTC)

Let's make this the official discussion about adopting the [[Wikiversity:Curators|curators policy]] policy. Your comments are invited and welcome. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 08:40, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
: There were two similar Colloquium threads in separate places about the proposed curators policy. So I've moved them to be adjacent. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 12:42, 1 May 2026 (UTC)
{{archive bottom}}

== Wikiversity:Curators to become a policy ==
{{archive top|There is strong consensus, so [[Wikiversity:Curators]] is now a policy. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 11:16, 9 May 2026 (UTC)}}
I've looked at the discussions about the Curators policy, I've looked at the practices, and it seems to me that there is no dispute about the wording of the policy, and what's more, the community has been using this proposal as if it were an offical policy for several years. Therefore, I propose that [[Wikiversity:Curators]] become a policy. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 18:35, 18 April 2026 (UTC)

:{{support}} —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 18:54, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
:{{support}} —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 20:21, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
: {{support|Yes, please}}. Especially after when I and PieWriter proposed above, I agree. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 14:27, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
:: @[[User:Juandev|Juandev]]; as of now, curators now have the user rights &lt;code&gt;autopatrol&lt;/code&gt; and &lt;code&gt;patrol&lt;/code&gt;. Perhaps we should also include that in [[Wikiversity:Custodianship]]? [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 12:07, 30 April 2026 (UTC)
:::You meant [[Wikiversity:Curators]] @[[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]]? [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 12:15, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
:::: I agree that we must develop what rules curators should follow when marking new pages as patrolled; the same can be added for custodians since they can also mark new pages as patrolled. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 13:37, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
:::::I see, well I think you can just add this to the policy. It is not major change and it probably reflects actual practice or actual technical possibilities for those flags. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 09:20, 7 May 2026 (UTC)
:{{support}} -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 12:42, 1 May 2026 (UTC)
:{{Support}} per nom. [[User:PhilDaBirdMan|PhilDaBirdMan]] ([[User talk:PhilDaBirdMan|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PhilDaBirdMan|contribs]]) 13:32, 1 May 2026 (UTC)
{{Archive bottom}}

== Inactive curators ==

Hello, even though [[Wikiversity:Curators]] is not a policy yet, there are curators listed here that have been inactive for two years or more:
* {{user|Cody naccarato}} (last edit on 13 Dec 2022, last logged action on 10 Dec 2022)
* {{user|Praxidicae}} (last edit on 10 Sep 2022, last logged action on 12 Sep 2022)
[[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 21:14, 19 April 2026 (UTC)

:Yup, I would remove the rights. To get the rights back if theyll come back should not be a big deal. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 20:08, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
:: When they don't reply by May 19, feel free (or any custodian) to do so. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 00:28, 25 April 2026 (UTC)

== Is anyone interested in Neurodiversity? ==

Is anyone interested in Neurodiversity? Is there anyone here who is interested for Neurodiversity to be &quot;something more&quot; than it already is? Does anyone here consider Neurodiversity one of the &quot;harder topics&quot; to work on or discuss? Does anyone here have an opinion about the [[Neurodiversity Movement]]? So these questions don't appear like &quot;out of a vacuum&quot; I can tell you a bit about my background:

Many years ago I got a psychiatric diagnosis &quot;Asperger's&quot;. After I stepped out of the office and my Äsperger's was 'concluded', I stepped out into the street and thought my first negative thought(but the positive thought followed after). The thought was about concentration camps in the second world war and that the world seemed to be going into the direction of &quot;labeling others&quot;. I was unsure whether this was &quot;real science&quot; and sort of &quot;challenged myself&quot; to make up my own mind after meeting people that had been given this diagnosis. The more adults with this diagnosis I met the more I started seeing &quot;patterns&quot;.

Was it a coincidence that the first person with Asperger's I met reminded me about my father later after I had plenty of times of experience with interacting with him? None of the people I interacted with online through IRC text chat...I felt I got any clue about how &quot;their brains work&quot;. Only when I met one person from the Asperger's chat community in person we both realized that whatever we experienced was akin to the &quot;chaos theory&quot;. He told me about &quot;chaos theory&quot; while I didn't know even what that term meant but I guess I 'read between the lines'. My question that I linger on still today is &quot;did he understand about me what I think I understood about him?&quot;? That our brains had the same configuration? Most autistic adults who meet other autistic adults usually get disappointed. They think the diagnosis will help them meet somebody like themselves and then they realize the great diversity in the autistic spectrum created by Psychiatry.

I later stopped interacting with autistic communities that much, I felt that it did not benefit me. Also Neurodiversity's &quot;neurotypes&quot; interested me for a while until I realized I had &quot;misunderstood everything&quot; about them and how they are used in the Neurodiversity Movement or &quot;Neurodiversity community&quot; if that even can precisely be defined? I doubt it but if you want to contribute to the [[Neurodiversity Movement]]. My previous attempts failed as I got more and more confused. I think a community project needs a community. With a lack of that I don't think it is worth my time. If any of you would like to work on that project let me know on my talk page.

So I was kinda lost and was talking to my friend and psychologist and I realized if I never talk about my idea to anyone in a &quot;comprehensive way&quot; or show that it matters to me nothing is going to ever happen. So I started talking about my &quot;idea&quot; more. Nobody could understand the &quot;idea&quot; because I had not developed my skills regarding where to start...although the process had already started &quot;automatically&quot; and that's why I often think of &quot;well my brain sort of activated me&quot;. I don't feel like I did have a plan and this idea happened. It happened &quot;by itself&quot;. My brain reacted to what I was seeing in a video or stream.

I value interaction highly in this idea. I think it would be helpful to make a community of people who are not paranoid about stuff that can express itself like &quot;don't analyze me!&quot;, &quot;don't compare me to anyone!&quot;. 

On the contrary, more often than not those adults who were diagnosed were actually openly comparing themselves with each other and I think that is healthy in a &quot;science&quot; way if done the &quot;right way&quot; which probably means &quot;Do no harm&quot;.

I found video material is important but I'm very unsure if uploading own video material to Wikimedia Commons would constitute a &quot;reasonable&quot; use of the resources there. Maybe somebody here needs to ask more questions to me that I should answer before that happens. I also know the '''be bold''' so I could just do what I think might be ok. Though I work better in a group as long as I know what &quot;group configurations&quot; help me. This is in a non-profit way. Since the state supported me this might be a way I am trying to &quot;give back&quot; to the state and &quot;the world&quot;. May seem overly ambitious and crazy but this thing gives me energy. It gives me hope when trying to develop this idea. [[User:ThinkingScience|ThinkingScience]] ([[User talk:ThinkingScience|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ThinkingScience|contribs]]) 10:47, 23 April 2026 (UTC)

:Thanks for sharing. There is plenty of room for neurodiversity community learning. However, the challenge I think is that the intersection of those interested in (a) ND, and (b) English Wikiversity might be very small (e.g., 1!) at this point in time.
:But don't give up hope. For example, Wikipedia has many more ND-interested editors; maybe consider reaching out to see who might be interested:
:[[w:Category:Wikipedians interested in neurodiversity]]
:You could also start an equivalent category here:
:[[:Category:Wikiversitarians interested in neurodiversity]] -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 04:46, 6 May 2026 (UTC)

== Request for comment (global AI policy) ==

&lt;bdi lang=&quot;en&quot; dir=&quot;ltr&quot; class=&quot;mw-content-ltr&quot;&gt;A [[:m:Requests for comment/Artificial intelligence policy|request for comment]] is currently being held to decide on a global AI policy. {{int:Feedback-thanks-title}} [[User:MediaWiki message delivery|MediaWiki message delivery]] ([[User talk:MediaWiki message delivery|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/MediaWiki message delivery|contribs]]) 00:58, 26 April 2026 (UTC)&lt;/bdi&gt;
&lt;!-- Message sent by User:Codename Noreste@metawiki using the list at https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Distribution_list/Global_message_delivery&amp;oldid=30424282 --&gt;

== Coming over From wikinews ==

Any chance someone could help me if you are allowed to write news articles here since wikinews is going read only mode soon, thank you! [[User:BigKrow|BigKrow]] ([[User talk:BigKrow|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/BigKrow|contribs]]) 22:43, 1 May 2026 (UTC)

:The scope of Wikiversity is very broad and is basically about more-or-less any learning material. We have made it a point to not have duplicative content of other WMF projects, but since Wikinews is being shuttered, I personally am fine with writing news articles here. One thing that is not controversial at all is a learning resource &lt;em&gt;about&lt;/em&gt; how to write news: that could be hugely useful here and could involve the process of writing news stories to learn and to share back and forth with an editor or fact-checker. In fact, I'd support an entire namespace dedicated to keeping the notion of Wikinews alive here. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 23:38, 1 May 2026 (UTC)
::Thank you so much! How do I start? Cheers! @[[User:Koavf|Koavf]] [[User:BigKrow|BigKrow]] ([[User talk:BigKrow|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/BigKrow|contribs]]) 01:07, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
:::I think it's premature to start just making news articles en masse, but if you want to start discussing the topic of citizen journalism, you can do that now. [[:Category:Journalism]] already has some material, so you can start by seeing what we already have, how you can refine that, etc. You can definitely have learning resources with collaborators who want to learn about journalism ASAP. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 01:24, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
::::thanks. [[User:BigKrow|BigKrow]] ([[User talk:BigKrow|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/BigKrow|contribs]]) 01:38, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
::::If I could try and start one News Article could you please tell me how to go about it? Like what style of writing like Wikinews or something else? Thank you Justin! @[[User:Koavf|Koavf]] [[User:BigKrow|BigKrow]] ([[User talk:BigKrow|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/BigKrow|contribs]]) 01:48, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
:::::Honestly, there are very few policies and guidelines here. I think the best way to write a news story would be in a manner that is obvious and instructive. So, for instance, it's common to use the &quot;pyramid style&quot; when you're writing news, so if you were to write a story that makes it very clear that you are using that approach, that would be helpful. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 02:08, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
::::::cool thanks. [[User:BigKrow|BigKrow]] ([[User talk:BigKrow|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/BigKrow|contribs]]) 02:13, 2 May 2026 (UTC)

== Language learning  ==

toki! I am trying to add or see what the toki pona language learning stuff on here is but I don't see anything that is language learning for anything. [[User:Jan Imon|Jan Imon]] ([[User talk:Jan Imon|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Jan Imon|contribs]]) 23:13, 2 May 2026 (UTC) —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 17:29, 3 May 2026 (UTC)

:We have language materials ([[:Category:Languages]], [[World Languages]], [[Portal:Foreign Language Learning]], [[Portal:Multilingual Studies]]). They are not as developed as I think we would all like and there's not any coverage of Toki Pona, but in principle, we could and would like that. You can also see [[:b:Subject:Languages]] at our sister project Wikibooks. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 17:33, 3 May 2026 (UTC)

== Timeline format? ==

I’ve been working on the World War II articles, including the [[World War II/Timeline|timeline]], and is there a specific timeline format that should be used? Right now it’s just a table, and there’s no separation between different periods/phases of the war.

I don’t want to use [[mw:Extension:EasyTimeline]] because this will be displaying dates and not time periods. [[User:PhilDaBirdMan|PhilDaBirdMan]] ([[User talk:PhilDaBirdMan|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PhilDaBirdMan|contribs]]) 01:35, 4 May 2026 (UTC)

:I dont think we have a policy or guideline, how to format a timeline. But you may try to browes wikiversity by Google if someone was dealing with this in the past somewhow @[[User:PhilDaBirdMan|PhilDaBirdMan]]. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 12:23, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
::+1 - there's no specific guideline on how to format a timeline, it's really up to you. In my opinion I think the timeline is good. I'd personally bold the dates just to make it easier to separate it from the event description, but that's my personal 2 cents. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 14:18, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
:::I’ll probably remove links to the dates/years, they’re just Wikipedia pages that shouldn’t be over linked to. [[User:PhilDaBirdMan|PhilDaBirdMan]] ([[User talk:PhilDaBirdMan|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PhilDaBirdMan|contribs]]) 00:39, 6 May 2026 (UTC)

== Interface administrator for Codename Noreste ==

Hello, everyone. I am requesting interface administrator access on this wiki.

The main reasoning is that I would benefit from having the user right &lt;code&gt;editinterface&lt;/code&gt;, which would allow me to make dark mode changes to pages in the MediaWiki namespace, add &lt;code&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;&lt;div class=&quot;mw-parser-output&quot;&gt;&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/code&gt; to some interface pages using templates, handle interface-protected edit requests, and similar stuff. Additionally, I have some knowledge of CSS, and I would like to assist with modifying CSS pages whenever necessary, such as moving MediaWiki common.css code to TemplateStyles CSS pages.

I am requesting the maximum time that is allowed per the [[Wikiversity:Interface administrators|policy]], and I have 2FA enabled on my account. Thank you. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 00:55, 6 May 2026 (UTC)

*{{support}} Globally trusted user. ―[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:black&quot;&gt;v&lt;/span&gt;f&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 01:07, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
*{{support}} Trusted and knowledgeable. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 04:35, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
*{{support}} WV would benefit from this. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 08:32, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
*{{support}} --[[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 09:13, 7 May 2026 (UTC)

:{{Comment}} Could @[[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] delete [[MediaWiki:Gadget-WikiSign.js]], which was requested to be deleted @[[User:Koavf|Justin]], @[[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]], @[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]]? I dont think we need it. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 07:40, 9 May 2026 (UTC)
::Yes - clearly no longer used -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 10:18, 9 May 2026 (UTC)
::: I can't delete it because I don't have the required permissions to do so.
::: On a side note, if this project has a need for permanent interface administrators, I would suggest that we have a minimum of two IAs, similar to how there must be two CUs and/or suppressors (or none). Maybe Koavf can be a good candidate if I am elected for permanent interface adminship, and I believe that permission shouldn't be removed from someone's own account. Instead, a bureaucrat should do it. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 13:20, 9 May 2026 (UTC)
::::I am willing and happy to do it, unfortunately, we do not have an appetite for indef IAs and just had a discussion that resulted in a [https://en.wikiversity.org/w/index.php?title=Wikiversity:Interface_administrators&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2807543 consensus that we can have IAs that have the user rights for 14 to 120 days]. So once you have the rights, please make sure to gopher it. ―[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:black&quot;&gt;v&lt;/span&gt;f&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 17:54, 9 May 2026 (UTC)
:::::@[[User:Koavf|Koavf]] give it time. Look at me, I was in favor of shorter time, now I am looking back to times, when custodians could do it without the need of extra flag. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 18:31, 9 May 2026 (UTC)
::::::Here's hoping. I think it would reduce administrative overhead, but that's just me and I'm not a bureaucrat here. ―[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:black&quot;&gt;v&lt;/span&gt;f&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 18:33, 9 May 2026 (UTC)
::::Complicated. Where are the times, admins could do everything! [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 18:27, 9 May 2026 (UTC)

== [[Wikiversity:Bureaucratship]] to become a policy ==

Following the recent approval of [[Wikiversity:Curators]] as a policy, I think [[Wikiversity:Bureaucratship]] may also be ready for policy status.

Please share your views about whether bureaucratship is ready to become a policy, or whether further revisions are needed.

-- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 13:58, 9 May 2026 (UTC)
: I added a logo about that user group, but other than that, it looks good to me. {{support}}. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 14:38, 9 May 2026 (UTC)
:I think that the consensus on this policy is proven by years of using it without further changes. But I I have to say weather I agree with this to become a policy, than of course {{support}}. It works and there were no major issues with it. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 18:45, 9 May 2026 (UTC)</text>
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== Requested update to [[Wikiversity:Interface administrators]] ==

Currently, [[Wikiversity:Interface administrators]] is a policy that includes a caveat that interface admins are not required long-term and that user right can only be added for a period of up to two weeks. I am proposing that we remove this qualification and allow for indefinite interface admin status. I think this is useful because there are reasons for tweaking the site CSS or JavaScript (e.g. to comply with dark mode), add gadgets (e.g. importing Cat-a-Lot, which I would like to do), or otherwise modifying the site that could plausibly come up on an irregular basis and requiring the overhead of a bureaucrat to add the user rights is inefficient. In particular, I am also going to request this right if the community accepts indefinite interface admins. Thoughts? —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 23:23, 17 August 2025 (UTC)

:And who will then monitor them to make sure they don't damage the project in any way, or abuse the rights acquired in this way? For large projects, this might not be a problem, but for smaller projects like the English Wikiversity, I'm not sure if there are enough users who would say, something is happening here that shouldn't be happening. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 10:28, 20 August 2025 (UTC)
::Anyone would be who. This argument applies to any person with any advanced rights here. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 10:46, 20 August 2025 (UTC)
:I think it is reasonable to allow for longer periods of access than 2 weeks to interface admin and support adjusting the policy to allow for this flexibility. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 04:57, 2 December 2025 (UTC)
::+1 —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 16:38, 25 January 2026 (UTC)
:@[[User:Koavf|Koavf]] I agree that the two-week requirement could be revised, but wouldn’t people just request access for a specific purpose anyway? Instead of granting indefinite access, they should request the specific time frame they need the rights for—until the planned fixes are completed—and then request an extension if more time is required. We could remove the two-week criterion while still keeping the access explicitly temporary. [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 02:48, 25 January 2026 (UTC)
::I just don't see why this wiki needs to be different than all of the others. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 07:18, 25 January 2026 (UTC)
:::There isn’t really much of a need for a permanent one at this point in time [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 09:53, 25 January 2026 (UTC)
:I quite agree with this proposal, so long as they perform the suggested changes as mentioned here. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 04:06, 26 January 2026 (UTC)
:: Just to clarify, I support '''indefinite interface admin status'''. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 18:34, 13 April 2026 (UTC)
:I think there is decent consensus for lengthening this, but not necessarily for indefinite permissions, so does anyone object to me revising it to the standard being 120 days instead of two weeks? I'll check back on this thread in three weeks and if there's no objection, I'll make the change. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 20:47, 13 April 2026 (UTC)
::Sure [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 23:27, 13 April 2026 (UTC)
::Thanks for proposing this, Justin. I agree with the proposal to lengthen the interface admin period from 2 weeks but not indefinitely. Can I check the source(s) for the standard being 120 days (I'm guessing policies on other projects or maybe global policy?)? In any case, I think it is reasonable for us to adopt a similar period. However, note on the current policy discussion page notes from @[[User:Dave Braunschweig|Dave Braunschweig]] arguing for shorter periods to lower risk, that's why it is 2 weeks. But if there are projects that need longer access, that should also be accommodated. Maybe we could adjust the policy to specify that ''interface admin rights can be given for 14 to 120 days depending on how long is required and what is supported by the community''. Sincerely, James -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 08:29, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
:::There was there was no source for 120: it was just more than 14 and less than infinity. The &quot;14 to 120&quot; also seems reasonable. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 14:33, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
::: On some small/medium-sized wikis, such as English Wikibooks and English Wikiquote for example, indefinite interface administrator access for administrators is allowed, but they tend not to make changes to the CSS and JS page changes unless it's truly necessary. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 14:34, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
:::It's a good idea to make the length of this right on request or allow to be prolonged. However, IA should test large changes somewhere else, for example on the en.wv mirror, and only after testing it on the mirror, adapt it to the live version. That means I can't imagine a time-consuming operation right now. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 20:04, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
::::Sorry, what mirror is this? Are you talking about beta.wv? —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 20:32, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
:::::Not beta.wv. Basically somewhere else then on a live wiki. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 20:59, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
:::::: Wouldn't testing on a user's own common.css page work anyway? [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 21:36, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
:Change made here: https://en.wikiversity.org/w/index.php?title=Wikiversity%3AInterface_administrators&amp;diff=2807543&amp;oldid=2806289 —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 13:35, 4 May 2026 (UTC)

== [[Template:AI-generated]] ==

After going through the plethora of ChatGPT-generated pages made by [[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]] (with many more pages to go), I'd like community input on this proposal to [[Wikiversity:Artificial intelligence]] that I think would be benefical for the community:
*Resources generated by AI '''must''' be indicated as so through the project box, [[Template:AI-generated]], on either the page or the main resource (if the page is a part of a project).
I do not believe including a small note/reference that a page is AI-generated is sufficient, and I take my thinking from [[WV:Original research|Wikiversity's OR policy]] for OR work: ''Within Wikiversity, all original research should be clearly identified as such''. I believe resources created from AI should also be clearly indicated as such, especially since we are working on whether or not AI-generated resources should be allowed on the website (discussion is [[Wikiversity talk:Artificial intelligence|here]], for reference). This makes it easier for organizational purposes, and in the event ''if'' we ban AI-generated work. 

I've left a message on Lee's talk page over a week ago and did not get a response or acknowledgement, so I'd like for the community's input for this inclusion to the policy. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 15:53, 26 January 2026 (UTC)

:I believe that existing Wikiversity policies are sufficient. Authors are responsible for the accuracy and usefulness of the content that is published. This policy covers AI-generated content that is: 1) carefully reviewed by the author publishing it, and 2) the source is noted.   [[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]] ([[User talk:Lbeaumont|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Lbeaumont|contribs]]) 19:38, 27 January 2026 (UTC)
::A small reference for pages that are substantially filled with Chat-GPT entries, like [[Real Good Religion]], [[Attributing Blame]], [[Fostering Curiosity]], are not sufficient IMO and a project box would be the best indicator that a page is AI-generated (especially when there is a mixture of human created content AND AI-generated content, as present in a lot of your pages). This is useful, especially considering the notable issues with AI (including hallucinations and fabrication of details), so viewers and support staff are aware. These small notes left on the pages are not as easily viewable as a project box or banner would be. I really don't see the issue with a clear-label guideline. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 22:34, 27 January 2026 (UTC)
::{{ping|Lbeaumont}} I noticed your reversions [https://en.wikiversity.org/w/index.php?title=Exploring_Existential_Concerns&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2788278 here] &amp; [https://en.wikiversity.org/w/index.php?title=Subjective_Awareness&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2788257 here]. I'd prefer to have a clean conversation regarding this proposition. Please voice your concerns here. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 15:53, 28 January 2026 (UTC)
:::Regarding Subjective Awareness, I distinctly recall the effort I went to to write that the old-fashioned way. It is true that ChatGPT assisted me in augmenting the list of words suggested as candidate subjective states. This is a small section of the course, is clearly marked, and makes no factual claim. Marking the entire course as AI-generated is misleading. I would have made these comments when I reverted your edit; however, the revert button does not provide that opportunity.
:::Regarding the Exploring Existential Concerns course, please note this was adapted from my EmotionalCompetency.com website, which predates the availability of LLMs. The course does include two links, clearly labeled as ChatGPT-generated. Again, marking the entire course as AI-generated is misleading.
:::On a broader issue, I don't consider your opinions to have established a carefully debated and adopted Wikiversity policy. You went ahead and modified many of my courses over my clearly stated objections. Please let this issue play out more completely before editing my courses further. Thanks.   [[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]] ([[User talk:Lbeaumont|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Lbeaumont|contribs]]) 15:11, 29 January 2026 (UTC)
::::Understood, and I respect your position. I apologize if my edits were seen as overarching. We could change the project box to &quot;a portion of this resource was generated by AI&quot;, or something along those lines. Feel free to revert my changes where you see fit, and I encourage more users to provide their input. EDIT: I've made changes to the template to indicate that a portion of the content has been generated from an LLM. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 15:50, 29 January 2026 (UTC)
:::::Thanks for this reply. The new banner is unduly large and alarming. There is no need for alarm here. The use of AI is not harmful per se. Like any technology, it can be used to help or to harm. I take care to craft prompts carefully, point the LMM to reliable source materials, and to carefully read and verify the generated text before I publish it. This is all in keeping with long-established Wikiversity policy. We don't want to use a  [[w:One-drop_rule|one-drop rule]] here or cause a [[w:Satanic_panic|satanic panic]]. We can learn our lessons from history here. I don't see any pedagogical reason for establishing a classification of &quot;AI generated&quot;, but if there is a consensus that it is needed, perhaps it can be handled as just another category that learning resources can be assigned to. I would rather focus on identifying any errors in factual claims than on casting pejorative bias toward AI-generated content. An essay on the best practices for using LMM on Wikiveristy would be welcome.   [[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]] ([[User talk:Lbeaumont|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Lbeaumont|contribs]]) 15:58, 30 January 2026 (UTC)
::::::The new banner mimics the banner that is available on the English Wikibooks (see [[b:Template:AI-generated]] &amp; [[b:Template:Uses AI]]), so my revisions aren't unique in this aspect. At this point, I'd welcome other peoples' inputs. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 19:40, 30 January 2026 (UTC)

== How do I start making pages? ==
Is there a notability guideline for Wikiversity? What is the sourcing policy for information? What is the Manual of Style? What kind of educational content qualifies for Wikiversity? All the introduction pages are a bit unclear. 
[[User:VidanaliK|VidanaliK]] ([[User talk:VidanaliK|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/VidanaliK|contribs]]) 02:25, 28 January 2026 (UTC)

:{{ping|VidanaliK}} Welcome to Wikiversity! I've left you a welcome message on your talk page. That should help you out. Make sure to especially look at [[Wikiversity:Introduction]]. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 03:11, 28 January 2026 (UTC)
::It says that I can't post more pages because I have apparently exceeded the new page limit. How long does it take before that new page limit expires? [[User:VidanaliK|VidanaliK]] ([[User talk:VidanaliK|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/VidanaliK|contribs]]) 16:57, 28 January 2026 (UTC)
:::This is a restriction for new users so that Wikiversity is not hit with massive spam. As for when this limit will expire, it should be a few days or after a certain number of edits. It's easy to overcome, though I do not have the exact numbers atm. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 15:08, 29 January 2026 (UTC)
::::OK, I think I got past the limit. [[User:VidanaliK|VidanaliK]] ([[User talk:VidanaliK|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/VidanaliK|contribs]]) 17:21, 29 January 2026 (UTC)
==Why does it feel like Wikiversity is no longer really active anymore?==
I've been looking at recent changes, and both today and yesterday there haven't been many changes that I haven't made; it feels like walking through a ghost town, is this just me or is Wikiversity not really active anymore? [[User:VidanaliK|VidanaliK]] ([[User talk:VidanaliK|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/VidanaliK|contribs]]) 03:54, 30 January 2026 (UTC)

:There is fewer people editing these days compared to the past. Many newcomers tend to edit in Wikipedia instead. [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 06:39, 30 January 2026 (UTC)
:It’s a little slow, but I’m happy to know that Wikiversity is a place that I think should provide value even if the activity of editors fluctuates. If it’s any consolation your edits may be encouraging for some anonymous newcomer to start edits on their own! I think it’s hard to build community when there is such a wide variety of interests and a smaller starting userbase. Also sometimes the getting into a particular topic that already exists can be intimidating because some relics (large portals, school, categories, etc.) have intricate, unique and generally messy levels of organization. [[User:IanVG|IanVG]] ([[User talk:IanVG|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/IanVG|contribs]]) 22:16, 9 March 2026 (UTC)
:I'd say it comes down to working hard for Wikiversity, basically if somebody or a group of people will start presenting good ideas and they turn out to be provably stable.
:I even asked Google's &quot;AI Mode&quot;, what is Wikiversity famous for? Unfortunately it could not answer that.
:Simply, we have not made Wikiversity famous by presenting really provable stable ideas yet. My hope is that this time might come. Perhaps even this year 2026!
:Hope dies last. [[User:ThinkingScience|ThinkingScience]] ([[User talk:ThinkingScience|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ThinkingScience|contribs]]) 10:12, 27 April 2026 (UTC)

== Inactivity policy for Curators ==

I was wondering if there is a specific inactivity polity for curators (semi-admins) as I am pretty sure the global policy does not apply to them as they are not ''fully'' sysops. [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 03:20, 15 February 2026 (UTC)

:Unfortunately, I don't see an inactivity policy, but if we were to create such a new policy for curators, it should be the same for custodians (administrators). [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 18:45, 15 February 2026 (UTC)
::@[[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] There is currently none, that I could find, for custodians either. [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 00:47, 17 February 2026 (UTC)
:::I think we should propose a local inactivity policy for custodians (and by extension, curators), which should be at least one year without any edits ''and'' logged actions. However, I don't know which page should it be when the inactivity removal procedure starts. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 00:53, 17 February 2026 (UTC)
::::@[[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] In theory, there should be a section added at [[WV:Candidates for custodianship]] [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 00:55, 17 February 2026 (UTC)
::::: To be consistent with the [[meta:Admin activity review|global period of 2 years inactivity]] for en.wv  [[Wikiversity:Custodianship#Notes|Custodians]] and [[Wikiversity:Bureaucratship#How are bureaucrats removed?|Bureaucrats]] we could add something like this to [[Wikiversity:Curators]]:
::::::The maximum time period of inactivity &lt;u&gt;without community review&lt;/u&gt; for curators is two years (consistent with  the [[:meta:Category:Global policies|global policy]] described at [[meta:Admin activity review|Admin activity review]] which applies for [[Wikiversity:Custodianship#Notes|Custodians]] and [[Wikiversity:Bureaucratship|Bureaucrats]]). After that time a custodian will remove the rights.
::::: -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 10:51, 27 March 2026 (UTC)
:::::Yup, I agree with Jtneill, there is a policy proposal for Wikiversity:Curators, where it should be logically deployed. The question is if we are ready to aprove the policy. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 17:43, 17 April 2026 (UTC)
:::::: I agree, but we should notify the colloquium about inactive curators, just like a steward would do for inactive custodians and bureaucrats per [[:m:Admin activity review|AAR]]. What is the minimum timeframe an inactive curator should receive so they can respond they would keep their rights? [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 17:49, 17 April 2026 (UTC)
:I incorporated these suggestions into the proposed curators policy. Please review/comment/improve. Summary: 2 years, notify curator's user page, then remove rights after 1 month: [[Wikiversity:Curators#Inactivity]]. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 08:59, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
:: @[[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] I created [[Template:Inactive curator]] for this. Feel free to make any changes or improvements. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 14:29, 24 April 2026 (UTC)

== [[Wikiversity:Artificial intelligence]] to become an official policy ==
{{Archive top|After running for a week, there is consensus, alongside comments, for [[Wikiversity:Artificial intelligence]] to be implemented as an official policy. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 23:27, 17 April 2026 (UTC)}}
With the introduction of AI-material, and some material just plain disruptive, its imperative that Wikiversity catches up with its sister projects and implements an official AI policy that we can work with. The recent issue of [[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]]'s 50+ articles that contain significantly large AI-generated material has made me came to the Colloquium. This user has also been removing the [[Template:AI-generated]] template from their pages, calling it &quot;misleading&quot;, &quot;alarmist&quot;, and &quot;pejorative&quot; - which is all just simply nonsensical rationales. Not to even mention this user's contributions to the English Wikipedia have been [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Inner_Development_Goals contested] and [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Multipolar_trap removed] a couple of times (for being low-quality and clearly LLM-generated), highlighting the need for an actual policy to be implemented here on Wikiversity. I would like to ping {{ping|Juandev}} and {{ping|Jtneill}} for their thoughts as well, since I'd like this to be implemented as soon as possible. 

Wikiversity has a significant issue with implementing anti-disruptive measures, hence why we have received numerous complaints as a community about our quality. I originally was reverting the removal of the templates, but realized that this is still a proposed policy, which it shouldn't be anymore. It should be a recognized Wikiversity policy. 14:54, 10 March 2026 (UTC) —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 14:54, 10 March 2026 (UTC)

:@[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] '''I agree''' that the draft, should become official policy. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 17:00, 10 March 2026 (UTC)
:I provided a detailed response at: [[Wikiversity talk:Artificial intelligence#Evolving a Wikiversity policy on AI]]
:I will appreaciate it if you consder that carefully. [[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]] ([[User talk:Lbeaumont|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Lbeaumont|contribs]]) 22:49, 10 March 2026 (UTC)
:Agree it should become official Wikiversity policy on the condition &lt;u&gt;that point point 5 is about [significant/substantial] LLM-generated text specifically&lt;/u&gt;. Not a good idea to overuse it, it should be added when there is substantial AI-generated text on the page, not for other cases. [[User:Prototyperspective|Prototyperspective]] ([[User talk:Prototyperspective|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Prototyperspective|contribs]]) 12:37, 11 March 2026 (UTC)
:What policy is being debated? Is it the text on this page, which is pointed to by the general banner, or the text at:   [[Wikiversity:Artificial intelligence|Wikiversity:Artificial intelligence,]]   which is pointed to by the specific banner? Let's begin with coherence on the text being debated. Thanks!  [[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]] ([[User talk:Lbeaumont|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Lbeaumont|contribs]]) 11:49, 17 March 2026 (UTC)
::@[[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]] This is a call for approval of the new Wikiversity policy. You expressed your opinion [[Wikiversity talk:Artificial intelligence#Evolving a Wikiversity policy on AI|on the talk page of the proposal]], I replied to you and await your response.When creating policies, it is necessary to propose specific solutions. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 14:12, 17 March 2026 (UTC)
:::Toward a Justified and Parsimonious AI Policy 
:::As we collaborate to develop a consensus policy on the use of Large Language Models, it is wise to begin by considering the needs of the various stakeholders to the policy.
:::The stakeholders are:
:::1)     The users, 
:::2)     The source providers, and
:::3)     The editors
:::There may also be others with a minor stake in this policy, including the population at large.
:::The many needs of the users are currently addressed by long-standing [[Wikiversity:Policies|Wikiversity policies]], so we can focus on what, if any, additional needs arise as LLMs are deployed. 
:::As always, users need assurance that propositional statements are accurate. This is covered by the existing policy on [[Wikiversity:Verifiability|verifiably]]. In addition, it is expected by both the users and those that provide materials used as sources for the text are [[Wikiversity:Cite sources|accurately attributed]]. This is also covered by [[Wikiversity:Cite sources|existing policies]].
:::To respect the time and effort of editors, a parsimonious policy will unburden editors from costly requirements that exceed benefits to the users.
:::Finally, it is important to recognize that because attention is our most valuable seizing attention unnecessarily is a form of theft. 
:::The following proposed policy statement results from these considerations:
:::Recommended Policy statement:
:::·       Editors [[Wikiversity:Verifiability|verify the accuracy]] of propositional statements, regardless of the source.
:::·       Editors [[Wikiversity:Cite sources|attribute the source]] of propositional statements. In the case of LLM, cite the LLM model and the prompt used.
:::·       Use of various available templates to mark the use of LLM are optional. Templates that are flexible in noting the type and extend of LLM usage are preferred. Templates that avoid unduly distracting or alarming the user are preferred. [[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]] ([[User talk:Lbeaumont|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Lbeaumont|contribs]]) 19:56, 19 March 2026 (UTC)
::::Do we discuss here or there? I have replied you there as your proposal is about that policy so it is tradition to discuss it at the affected talk page. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 21:59, 19 March 2026 (UTC)
: {{support}} Thanks for the proposed policy development and discussion; also note proposed policy talk page discussion: [[Wikiversity talk:Artificial intelligence]] -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 12:05, 24 March 2026 (UTC)
::I think the Wikiversity AI policy shall be official. – [[User:RestoreAccess111|RestoreAccess111]] &lt;sup style=&quot;font-family:Arimo, Arial;&quot;&gt;[[User talk:RestoreAccess111|Talk!]]&lt;/sup&gt; &lt;sup style=&quot;font-family:Times New Roman, Tinos;&quot;&gt;[[Special:Contributions/RestoreAccess111|Watch!]]&lt;/sup&gt; 06:11, 13 April 2026 (UTC)
{{archive bottom}}

== New titles for user right nominations ==
&lt;div class=&quot;cd-moveMark&quot;&gt;''Moved from [[Wikiversity talk:Candidates for Custodianship#New titles for user right nominations]].  [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 23:20, 17 April 2026 (UTC)''&lt;/div&gt;

I would like to propose the following retitles should a user be nominated for any of the following user rights:
* Curator: Candidates for Curatorship
* Bureaucrat: Candidates for Bureaucratship
The reason is that many curator (and probably bureaucrat) requests have run solely under {{tq|Candidates for Custodianship}}, but that title might sound misleading (especially in regards to the permission a user is requesting). CheckUser and Oversight (suppressor) are not included above since no user was nominated for these sensitive permissions, probably. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 01:30, 19 March 2026 (UTC)

:And it's not that when someone at the beginning misplaced the request, no one thought to move it and the others copied it. Even today, it would be possible to simply take it all and move it. Otherwise, for me, the more fundamental problem is that there is [[Wikiversity:Curators|no approved policy for curators]] than where the requests are based. Curators then operate in a certain vacuum and if one of them &quot;breaks out of the chain&quot;, the average user doesn't have many transparent tools to deal with it, because there is no policy. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 07:02, 19 March 2026 (UTC)
::I am not talking about the curator page (policy proposal). [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 19:08, 21 March 2026 (UTC)
: @[[User:Juandev|Juandev]] I'll see if I can do an overhaul of [[Wikiversity:Candidates for Custodianship]], just like I recently did with the Requests for adminship page on English Wikiquote. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 22:17, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
:Yes, great idea - ideally there will be separate &quot;Candidates for ...&quot; pages for each user right group. The most important for now is to separate curator and custodian pages as CN suggests. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 11:39, 1 May 2026 (UTC)
:So maybe I previously misunderstood. Are you proposing separated pages for nominations (i.e. [[Wikiversity:Candidates for Curatorship]], [[Wikiversity:Candidates for Bureaucratship]], [[Wikiversity:Candidates for Custodianship]])? [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 12:30, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
:: Yes. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 13:33, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
:::I see, then I am fine with that @[[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]]. Sorry for misunderstanding. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 18:35, 9 May 2026 (UTC)

I've split the user rights nomination pages into:
* [[Wikiversity:Candidates for CheckUser]]
* [[Wikiversity:Candidates for Curatorship]]
* [[Wikiversity:Candidates for Custodianship]]
* [[Wikiversity:Candidates for Bureaucratship]]

Please review. There are likely several links to update, text to adjust, categories to manage, short-cuts to fix etc. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 04:22, 10 May 2026 (UTC)

:Thanks, great job @[[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]]. I am wondering if we need to move archived nominations too, or if we are OK with the actual state. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 08:08, 10 May 2026 (UTC)
::Yes, I think that would be helpful. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 10:46, 10 May 2026 (UTC)

== Technical Request:  Courtesy link.. ==

[[Template_talk:Information#Background_must_have_color_defined_as_well]] [[User:ShakespeareFan00|ShakespeareFan00]] ([[User talk:ShakespeareFan00|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ShakespeareFan00|contribs]]) 11:43, 20 March 2026 (UTC)
: I can't edit the template directly as it need an sysop/interface admin to do it. [[User:ShakespeareFan00|ShakespeareFan00]] ([[User talk:ShakespeareFan00|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ShakespeareFan00|contribs]]) 11:43, 20 March 2026 (UTC)
:: Also if the Template field of - https://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Special:LintErrors/night-mode-unaware-background-color is examined, there is poential for an admin to clear a substantial proportion of these by implmenting a simmilar fix to the indciated templates (and underlying stylesheets). It would be nice to clear things like Project box and others, as many other templates (and thus pages depend on them.) :)
[[User:ShakespeareFan00|ShakespeareFan00]] ([[User talk:ShakespeareFan00|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ShakespeareFan00|contribs]]) 11:43, 20 March 2026 (UTC)

:I think it would be best to grant you interface admin rights for a short period of time to make these changes. However, I still have doubts about the suitability of this solution, which may cause other problems and no one has explained to me why dark mode has to be implemented this way @[[User:ShakespeareFan00|ShakespeareFan00]]. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 20:43, 20 March 2026 (UTC)

: I would have reservations about holding such rights, which is why I was trying to do what I could without needing them. However if it is the only way to get the required changes made, I would suggest asking on Wikipedia to find technical editors, willing to undertake the changes needed. [[User:ShakespeareFan00|ShakespeareFan00]] ([[User talk:ShakespeareFan00|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ShakespeareFan00|contribs]]) 09:32, 21 March 2026 (UTC)

== WikiEducator has closed ==

Some of you may know of a similar project to Wikiversity, called [https://wikieducator.org/Main_Page WikiEducator], championed by [https://oerfoundation.org/about/staff/wayne-mackintosh/ Wayne Mackintosh][https://www.linkedin.com/posts/waynemackintosh_important-notice-about-the-oer-foundation-activity-7405113051688931329-Nhm9/][https://openeducation.nz/killed-not-starved/].

It seems [https://openeducation.nz/terminating-oer-foundation their foundation has closed] and they are no longer operating.

They had done quite a bit of outreach (e.g., in the Pacific and Africa) to get educators using wiki.

The WikiEducator content is still available in MediaWiki - and potentially could be imported to Wikiversity ([https://wikieducator.org/WikiEducator:Copyrights CC-BY-SA] is the default license).

The closing of WikiEducator arguably makes the nurturing of Wikiversity even more important.

-- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 02:09, 1 April 2026 (UTC)

:I was never active there. If anyone has an account or is otherwise in contact, we may want to copy relevant information here or even at [[:outreach:]]. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 04:46, 1 April 2026 (UTC)

:: I reached out to [[User:Mackiwg~enwikiversity|Wayne]] in January, and he responded briefly but positively (while travelling).  I wrote to the low-traffic wikieducator mailing list today and got a nice [https://groups.google.com/g/wikieducator/c/r_yIyUw6ZIA reply] from [[user:SteveFoerster|Steve Foerster]] who's interested in helping. If we can figure out a migration path it would be great to adopt at least the main namespace pages here.  
:: A few questions that come to mind: 
:: - would people want to create matching user accounts
:: - are there any namespaces (user/talk?) that should not be moved over
:: We could look at how this was done for the [[m:Wikivoyage/Migration]] wikivoyage migration. &lt;span style=&quot;padding:0 2px 0 2px;background-color:white;color:#bbb;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash;[[User:Sj|SJ]][[User Talk:Sj|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#ff9900;&quot;&gt;+&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 04:27, 1 May 2026 (UTC)
:::That's fantastic, SJ, that you've reached out and that Wayne, Steve, and Jim are receptive—and that you can help! -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 11:52, 1 May 2026 (UTC)

== Wikinews is ending ==

Apparently mainly due to low editorial activity, low public interest, but also failure to achieve the goals from the proposal for the creation of the project, the Wikinews project is ending after years of discussions ([[Meta:Proposal for Closing Wikinews|some reading]]).

And I would be interested to see how Wikiversity is doing in the monitored metrics. We probably have more editors than Wikinews had, but what about consumers and achieving the goals? [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 19:14, 1 April 2026 (UTC)

:Wikiversity's biggest issue in recent times was the hosting of low-quality, trash content. Thankfully we've done a great job in removing pseudoscience and other embarrassingly trash content (Wikidebates, for example), but the biggest concern moving forward is proper maintenance IMO. I've caught several pseudoscience pages being created within the last few months that could easily have flown under the radar (ex, [[The Kelemen Dilemma: Causal Collapse and Axiomatic Instability]]), so I'd urge our custodians/curators to be on the lookout for this type of content. Usually an AI-overview can point this type of content out relatively well.
:In terms of visibility, I believe Wikiversity is a high-traffic project. I remember my [[Mathematical Properties]] showing up on the first page of Google when searching up &quot;math properties&quot; for the longest time (and is still showing up in the first page 'till this day!). Besides, Wikinews hosted a lot of short-term content (the nature of news articles), while Wikiversity hosts content that can still be useful a decade later (ex, [[A Reader's Guide to Annotation]]). 
:I think we are on a better path than we were a few months ago, and I do want to thank everyone here who has been helping out with maintaining our website! —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 20:48, 1 April 2026 (UTC)
:For what it's worth, the group that did that study has since disbanded, so no one is monitoring the other sister projects in the same way. Additionally, Wikinews had some catastrophic server issues due to the maintenance of [[:m:Extension:DynamicPageList]] which don't apply here. Your questions are still worth addressing, but I just wanted to cut off any concern at the pass about Wikiversity being in the same precarious situation. Wikiversity is definitely the biggest &quot;lagging behind&quot; or &quot;failure&quot; project now that Wikinews is being shuttered, but I don't see any near- or medium-term pathway to closing Wikiversity. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 00:46, 2 April 2026 (UTC)

:[[w:en:Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2026-03-31/News and notes|Entirety of Wikinews to be shut down]] (Wikipedia Signpost) -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 02:03, 11 April 2026 (UTC)

== Action Required: Update templates/modules for electoral maps (Migrating from P1846 to P14226) ==

Hello everyone,

This is a notice regarding an ongoing data migration on Wikidata that may affect your election-related templates and Lua modules (such as &lt;code&gt;Module:Itemgroup/list&lt;/code&gt;).

'''The Change:'''&lt;br /&gt;
Currently, many templates pull electoral maps from Wikidata using the property [[:d:Property:P1846|P1846]], combined with the qualifier [[:d:Property:P180|P180]]: [[:d:Q19571328|Q19571328]]. 

We are migrating this data (across roughly 4,000 items) to a newly created, dedicated property: '''[[:d:Property:P14226|P14226]]'''.

'''What You Need To Do:'''&lt;br /&gt;
To ensure your templates and infoboxes do not break or lose their maps, please update your local code to fetch data from [[:d:Property:P14226|P14226]] instead of the old [[:d:Property:P1846|P1846]] + [[:d:Property:P180|P180]] structure. A [[m:Wikidata/Property Migration: P1846 to P14226/List|list of pages]] was generated using Wikimedia Global Search.

'''Deadline:'''&lt;br /&gt;
We are temporarily retaining the old data on [[:d:Property:P1846|P1846]] to allow for a smooth transition. However, to complete the data cleanup on Wikidata, the old [[:d:Property:P1846|P1846]] statements will be removed after '''May 1, 2026'''. Please update your modules and templates before this date to prevent any disruption to your wiki's election articles.

Let us know if you have any questions or need assistance with the query logic. Thank you for your help! [[User:ZI Jony|ZI Jony]] using [[User:MediaWiki message delivery|MediaWiki message delivery]] ([[User talk:MediaWiki message delivery|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/MediaWiki message delivery|contribs]]) 17:11, 3 April 2026 (UTC)
&lt;!-- Message sent by User:ZI Jony@metawiki using the list at https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Distribution_list/Non-Technical_Village_Pumps_distribution_list&amp;oldid=29941252 --&gt;
:I didnt find such properties, so we are probably fine. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 21:00, 12 April 2026 (UTC)
:: +1 (agreed). [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 22:19, 12 April 2026 (UTC)

== Enable the abuse filter block action? ==

In light of [[Special:AbuseLog/80178]] (coupon spam), I would like to propose enabling the block action for the abuse filter. Only custodians will be able to enable and disable that action on an abuse filter, and it is useful to block ongoing vandalism. Thoughts? [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 19:12, 13 April 2026 (UTC)

:Seems like a good idea, almost all of the users which create such pages are spambots so this shouldn’t be a problem. [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 23:41, 13 April 2026 (UTC)
:Can you explain some more (I am new to abuse filters)? It looks like the attempted edit was prevented? Which abuse filter?
:Note on your suggestion, have also reactivated Antispam Filter 12 - see [[WV:RCA]]. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 10:45, 15 April 2026 (UTC)
:: I am proposing that we activate the abuse filter block action, which if a user triggers an abuse filter, it would actually block the user in question - the same mechanism that a custodian would use to block users. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 13:11, 15 April 2026 (UTC)
:::OK, thankyou, that makes sense. And, reviewing the abuse filter 12 log, it would be helpful because it would prevent the need for manual blocking. But I don't see a setting for autoblocking? -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 23:14, 15 April 2026 (UTC)
:::: I think it probably adds an autoblock. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 00:43, 16 April 2026 (UTC)
: [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] and [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]], given that a little bit more than a week has passed and there is minimal consensus to activate the abuse filter block action, I filed [[phab:T424053]]. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 15:05, 21 April 2026 (UTC)
::Thank-you for doing this. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 08:03, 24 April 2026 (UTC)

== Advice needed: A Neurodiversity-inspired Idea/observation ==

If I want the greatest participation of others to &quot;provide constructive criticism to my idea&quot; or to &quot;shoot down my idea&quot; or &quot;idea&quot;.

What I've called it so far is &quot;The Neurodiversity-inspired Idea&quot;. At other times I used more sensationalist wording but here on Wikiversity I don't dare do that. I actually woke up with thinking about putting this into my userspace draft: &quot;Personal Observations Made By Meeting Autistic and Non-Autistic Adults&quot;.

My ultimate goal is to stop blathering about my &quot;idea&quot; to friend and family without feeling my &quot;methodology&quot; is going into any progressive direction whatsoever. My latest encounter was somewhat constructive though. A friend of a friend who worked with people presenting ideas in attempting to getting grants. I don't want a grant. I just want to figure out how I can express my &quot;idea&quot; in a way so that I can more clearly figure out what flaws it got.

At the same time I tend to overthink. If anyone thinks etherpad might be a good place and considering Wikimedia already got an etherpad at https://etherpad.wikimedia.org/ if anyone feels like they know me better in the future feel free to suggest a &quot;session&quot; on etherpad.

'''If I don't receive a reply to this in 1 week's time I will begin to explore this &quot;idea&quot; into my userspace''' unless you replied and refrained me from doing so, of course. Then maybe after &quot;developing it there&quot; I might reference it to you another future time here in the Colloquium, with my &quot;idea&quot; still in my userspace draft. This &quot;idea&quot; is sort of a burden, I'm happy I've made the choice to get rid of it and hopefully move on with my life, unless there is something to this &quot;idea&quot;. 

My failure is probably evident: I feel I haven't told you anything. Same happened to when I talked to friends and family. In danger of overthinking it further I'll publish this right now. I need to &quot;keep it together&quot; [[User:ThinkingScience|ThinkingScience]] ([[User talk:ThinkingScience|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ThinkingScience|contribs]]) 10:36, 16 April 2026 (UTC)

:Good on you putting it out there ... and hitting publish :). I'd say go for it (no need to wait), give birth to your idea and share about it here and elsewhere. Let it take shape and see where it might go. In many ways, this is exactly what an open collaborative learning community should be doing. Others might not know well how to respond, so perhaps consider creating some questions to accompany the idea. Sincerely, James -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 11:21, 16 April 2026 (UTC)
::Thank you for encouraging me in developing the idea.
::I have created a &quot;questions&quot; section in the draft which is visible in the table of contents now. My brain was &quot;frozen&quot; today metaphorically speaking in that I felt I had like a &quot;writer's block&quot; so the draft has more &quot;AI/LLM&quot; content than before. I used the LLM for generating questions. The answers are so far human-only.
::I've also created a subsection where I could add the prompts that made the LLM generate the questions. That could help people make better prompts perhaps. I've described what it is about inside of it and there are some chaotically written notes.
::[[Draft:The_Neurodiversity-inspired_Idea#Questions_that_might_encourage_the_development_of_this_idea_and_its_methodology]]
::My draft is missing stuff. Any questions that you contribute to my draft will probably help me and if I don't understand the questions I'll probably notify you and also at the same time &quot;feed them&quot; to an LLM and ask in my input like &quot;explain in simple words what this question means, what is it searching for?&quot; etc. while I wait for an answer. If you have any more feedback please give it to me here or on the Draft page, its talk page or my user talk page. Thank you for helping me! [[User:ThinkingScience|ThinkingScience]] ([[User talk:ThinkingScience|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ThinkingScience|contribs]]) 21:20, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
::Today I woke up with not only thinking about supplying questions along with the &quot;idea&quot; but also answers. ie. Is it possible to &quot;test&quot; this idea? Is it possible to create one or multiple hypotheses based on this &quot;idea&quot;?(etc.) I've thought about this before in this &quot;idea&quot; but since I'm beginning to add to Wikiversity what was previously 'locked in my mind' it's also easier for me to see what I've done so far. Thank you for this comment! [[User:ThinkingScience|ThinkingScience]] ([[User talk:ThinkingScience|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ThinkingScience|contribs]]) 09:11, 23 April 2026 (UTC)
:May I think that you should not add deadlines ; being read, and rising interest for collaboration, or even simply for exchange of thoughts, such an effective meeting event loads a huge bunch of unprobability, which time can help to… somehow diminish. Maybe, I would advice you having a central place for developping your ideas, your needs, your advances, maybe a page in your own user zone, and from time to time, depending your feeling, it could be every trimester or so, or more frequently, you could write a short account of progress (or even of no progress), or a call for participation, in such a place as this present one ; I think that will increase much exposure of your projet. Maybe also, if you can find a project name, not necessarily very meaningfull by itseilf (at least it will gain signification with time, as your project develops), that will serve as a kind-of hook, and make your announcement titles more visible. Best regards (and my excuses for my poor command of English, which seems to be unplease an anti-abuse filter, &quot;Questionable Language (profanity)&quot;, which I don't understand…). My few cents. --  [[User:Eric.LEWIN|Eric.LEWIN]] ([[User talk:Eric.LEWIN|discussion]] • [[Special:Contributions/Eric.LEWIN|contributions]]) 10:06, 17 April 2026 (UTC)
::Sorry about the false positive on the profanity filter - I've fixed it. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 10:26, 17 April 2026 (UTC)
:::&quot;May I think that you should not add deadlines ; being read, and rising interest for collaboration, or even simply for exchange of thoughts, such an effective meeting event loads a huge bunch of unprobability, which time can help to… somehow diminish.&quot;
::Thank you Eric for this comment. Trust in time is how I interpret it. I should not feel like I need to be in a hurry. I'll try to give this time. Thank you!
:::&quot;Maybe, I would advice you having a central place for developping your ideas, your needs, your advances, maybe a page in your own user zone, and from time to time, depending your feeling, it could be every trimester or so, or more frequently, you could write a short account of progress (or even of no progress), or a call for participation, in such a place as this present one ; I think that will increase much exposure of your projet.&quot;
::A central place for developing or making &quot;project notes&quot; regarding the Neurodiversity idea on my userspace, I might need that, like a diary or &quot;project notes&quot; of the Neurodiversity idea similar to my course notes regarding my experience with Coursera.
::Any actions I take are going to be related to my Userspace from now on but I'll also update the draft when necessary. Now in the beginning I might be working daily to once every 3 days on both the draft and the daily notes I plan to make.
:::&quot;Maybe also, if you can find a project name, not necessarily very meaningfull by itseilf (at least it will gain signification with time, as your project develops), that will serve as a kind-of hook, and make your announcement titles more visible.&quot;
::Thank you for the advice. I was brainstorming yesterday about it. I concluded that since I've not yet developed a methodology that adheres to &quot;Do no harm&quot; and this is my first time working my &quot;idea&quot; into a way that is compatible with how projects develop on English Wikiversity this is new to me. My methodology isn't developed and therefore trying to get attention to my project through a name can wait. Yesterday I figured out a silly title that has nothing to do with the project: &quot;Planetary Awareness Potato Cabbage Rolls&quot; or something like that. Google output read that no such thing exists so I wanted it mainly to be unique. I don't want to raise attention that I'm unsure whether I'll actually be capable of developing a methodology for but project notes is my best bet so far in tracking my progress. Every day I think about this &quot;idea&quot; but I need to improve the important parts.
:::&quot;Best regards (and my excuses for my poor command of English, which seems to be unplease an anti-abuse filter, &quot;Questionable Language (profanity)&quot;, which I don't understand…). My few cents.&quot;
::You added great points and I felt that I was helped by you! I encourage you to post again and I can understand that interacting with any kind of automated filter can be discouraging and can be for me too! Thank you for giving me feedback! [[User:ThinkingScience|ThinkingScience]] ([[User talk:ThinkingScience|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ThinkingScience|contribs]]) 16:01, 18 April 2026 (UTC)

== Add some user rights to the curator user group? ==

By default, only custodians have the ability to mark new pages as patrolled (&lt;code&gt;patrol&lt;/code&gt;) and have their own page creations automatically marked as patrolled (&lt;code&gt;autopatrol&lt;/code&gt;). I am proposing both of the following:
* Curators can mark new pages as patrolled, helping on reducing the backlog of new, unpatrolled pages.
* New pages made by curators will be automatically marked as patrolled by the MediaWiki software.
Before we implement this, I would suggest implementing a proposed guideline for marking new pages as patrolled for curators and custodians.

Thoughts? [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 16:32, 17 April 2026 (UTC)

:Agree, &lt;s&gt;also can we also allow curators to undelete pages since they already have the rights to delete them?&lt;/s&gt; [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 02:54, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
::I think the requirement that undelete NOT be included came from above (meta / stewards / central office). Having access to the undelete page gives access to information that is restricted by their policies to admins (custodians and bureaucrats). -- [[User:Dave Braunschweig|Dave Braunschweig]] ([[User talk:Dave Braunschweig|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dave Braunschweig|contribs]]) 20:12, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
::: [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]], unless if requests for curator and custodian should be RfA-like processes (that is, including voting and comments), then I have to agree with Dave above. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 22:03, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
::::Oh, I didn’t realise that. Withdrawing my comment.. [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 00:08, 19 April 2026 (UTC)
:{{support}} Seems reasonable and would reduce overhead. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 14:35, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
:'''Agree''', implement it also to [[Wikiversity:Curators]] proposal please. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 17:11, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
: I went ahead and filed [[phab:T424445]]. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 15:39, 26 April 2026 (UTC)

== [[Wikiversity:Curators|Curators and curators policy]] ==
{{archive top|There is strong consensus, so [[Wikiversity:Curators]] is now a policy. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 11:15, 9 May 2026 (UTC)}}
How does it come, that Wikiversity has curators, but Curators policy is still being proposed? How do the curators exists and act if the policy about them havent been approved yet? [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 18:33, 16 October 2025 (UTC)

:It looks as if it is not just curators. The policy on Bureaucratship is still being proposed as well. See [[Wikiversity:Bureaucratship]]. —[[User:RailwayEnthusiast2025|&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Verdana; color:#008000; text-shadow:gray 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em;&quot;&gt;RailwayEnthusiast2025&lt;/span&gt;]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:RailwayEnthusiast2025|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#59a53f&quot;&gt;''talk with me!''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 18:33, 27 October 2025 (UTC)

:I think its just the nature of a small WMF sister project in that there are lots of drafts, gaps, and potential improvements. In this case, these community would need to vote on those proposed Wikiversity staff policies if we think they're ready. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 02:08, 3 December 2025 (UTC)
:What? I thought you were getting it approved, Juandev... :) [[User:I&amp;#39;m Mr. Chris|I&amp;#39;m Mr. Chris]] ([[User talk:I&amp;#39;m Mr. Chris|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/I&amp;#39;m Mr. Chris|contribs]]) 14:20, 12 February 2026 (UTC)
::Yeah I think this one is important too and we need to aprove it too @[[User:I'm Mr. Chris|I'm Mr. Chris]]. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 15:56, 12 February 2026 (UTC)
:::I thinks its ready to made into a policy, it seems to be complete and informative about what the rights does and how to get it. [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 03:08, 15 February 2026 (UTC)
::::Agree -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 11:00, 27 March 2026 (UTC)

Let's make this the official discussion about adopting the [[Wikiversity:Curators|curators policy]] policy. Your comments are invited and welcome. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 08:40, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
: There were two similar Colloquium threads in separate places about the proposed curators policy. So I've moved them to be adjacent. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 12:42, 1 May 2026 (UTC)
{{archive bottom}}

== Wikiversity:Curators to become a policy ==
{{archive top|There is strong consensus, so [[Wikiversity:Curators]] is now a policy. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 11:16, 9 May 2026 (UTC)}}
I've looked at the discussions about the Curators policy, I've looked at the practices, and it seems to me that there is no dispute about the wording of the policy, and what's more, the community has been using this proposal as if it were an offical policy for several years. Therefore, I propose that [[Wikiversity:Curators]] become a policy. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 18:35, 18 April 2026 (UTC)

:{{support}} —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 18:54, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
:{{support}} —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 20:21, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
: {{support|Yes, please}}. Especially after when I and PieWriter proposed above, I agree. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 14:27, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
:: @[[User:Juandev|Juandev]]; as of now, curators now have the user rights &lt;code&gt;autopatrol&lt;/code&gt; and &lt;code&gt;patrol&lt;/code&gt;. Perhaps we should also include that in [[Wikiversity:Custodianship]]? [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 12:07, 30 April 2026 (UTC)
:::You meant [[Wikiversity:Curators]] @[[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]]? [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 12:15, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
:::: I agree that we must develop what rules curators should follow when marking new pages as patrolled; the same can be added for custodians since they can also mark new pages as patrolled. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 13:37, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
:::::I see, well I think you can just add this to the policy. It is not major change and it probably reflects actual practice or actual technical possibilities for those flags. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 09:20, 7 May 2026 (UTC)
:{{support}} -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 12:42, 1 May 2026 (UTC)
:{{Support}} per nom. [[User:PhilDaBirdMan|PhilDaBirdMan]] ([[User talk:PhilDaBirdMan|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PhilDaBirdMan|contribs]]) 13:32, 1 May 2026 (UTC)
{{Archive bottom}}

== Inactive curators ==

Hello, even though [[Wikiversity:Curators]] is not a policy yet, there are curators listed here that have been inactive for two years or more:
* {{user|Cody naccarato}} (last edit on 13 Dec 2022, last logged action on 10 Dec 2022)
* {{user|Praxidicae}} (last edit on 10 Sep 2022, last logged action on 12 Sep 2022)
[[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 21:14, 19 April 2026 (UTC)

:Yup, I would remove the rights. To get the rights back if theyll come back should not be a big deal. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 20:08, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
:: When they don't reply by May 19, feel free (or any custodian) to do so. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 00:28, 25 April 2026 (UTC)

== Is anyone interested in Neurodiversity? ==

Is anyone interested in Neurodiversity? Is there anyone here who is interested for Neurodiversity to be &quot;something more&quot; than it already is? Does anyone here consider Neurodiversity one of the &quot;harder topics&quot; to work on or discuss? Does anyone here have an opinion about the [[Neurodiversity Movement]]? So these questions don't appear like &quot;out of a vacuum&quot; I can tell you a bit about my background:

Many years ago I got a psychiatric diagnosis &quot;Asperger's&quot;. After I stepped out of the office and my Äsperger's was 'concluded', I stepped out into the street and thought my first negative thought(but the positive thought followed after). The thought was about concentration camps in the second world war and that the world seemed to be going into the direction of &quot;labeling others&quot;. I was unsure whether this was &quot;real science&quot; and sort of &quot;challenged myself&quot; to make up my own mind after meeting people that had been given this diagnosis. The more adults with this diagnosis I met the more I started seeing &quot;patterns&quot;.

Was it a coincidence that the first person with Asperger's I met reminded me about my father later after I had plenty of times of experience with interacting with him? None of the people I interacted with online through IRC text chat...I felt I got any clue about how &quot;their brains work&quot;. Only when I met one person from the Asperger's chat community in person we both realized that whatever we experienced was akin to the &quot;chaos theory&quot;. He told me about &quot;chaos theory&quot; while I didn't know even what that term meant but I guess I 'read between the lines'. My question that I linger on still today is &quot;did he understand about me what I think I understood about him?&quot;? That our brains had the same configuration? Most autistic adults who meet other autistic adults usually get disappointed. They think the diagnosis will help them meet somebody like themselves and then they realize the great diversity in the autistic spectrum created by Psychiatry.

I later stopped interacting with autistic communities that much, I felt that it did not benefit me. Also Neurodiversity's &quot;neurotypes&quot; interested me for a while until I realized I had &quot;misunderstood everything&quot; about them and how they are used in the Neurodiversity Movement or &quot;Neurodiversity community&quot; if that even can precisely be defined? I doubt it but if you want to contribute to the [[Neurodiversity Movement]]. My previous attempts failed as I got more and more confused. I think a community project needs a community. With a lack of that I don't think it is worth my time. If any of you would like to work on that project let me know on my talk page.

So I was kinda lost and was talking to my friend and psychologist and I realized if I never talk about my idea to anyone in a &quot;comprehensive way&quot; or show that it matters to me nothing is going to ever happen. So I started talking about my &quot;idea&quot; more. Nobody could understand the &quot;idea&quot; because I had not developed my skills regarding where to start...although the process had already started &quot;automatically&quot; and that's why I often think of &quot;well my brain sort of activated me&quot;. I don't feel like I did have a plan and this idea happened. It happened &quot;by itself&quot;. My brain reacted to what I was seeing in a video or stream.

I value interaction highly in this idea. I think it would be helpful to make a community of people who are not paranoid about stuff that can express itself like &quot;don't analyze me!&quot;, &quot;don't compare me to anyone!&quot;. 

On the contrary, more often than not those adults who were diagnosed were actually openly comparing themselves with each other and I think that is healthy in a &quot;science&quot; way if done the &quot;right way&quot; which probably means &quot;Do no harm&quot;.

I found video material is important but I'm very unsure if uploading own video material to Wikimedia Commons would constitute a &quot;reasonable&quot; use of the resources there. Maybe somebody here needs to ask more questions to me that I should answer before that happens. I also know the '''be bold''' so I could just do what I think might be ok. Though I work better in a group as long as I know what &quot;group configurations&quot; help me. This is in a non-profit way. Since the state supported me this might be a way I am trying to &quot;give back&quot; to the state and &quot;the world&quot;. May seem overly ambitious and crazy but this thing gives me energy. It gives me hope when trying to develop this idea. [[User:ThinkingScience|ThinkingScience]] ([[User talk:ThinkingScience|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ThinkingScience|contribs]]) 10:47, 23 April 2026 (UTC)

:Thanks for sharing. There is plenty of room for neurodiversity community learning. However, the challenge I think is that the intersection of those interested in (a) ND, and (b) English Wikiversity might be very small (e.g., 1!) at this point in time.
:But don't give up hope. For example, Wikipedia has many more ND-interested editors; maybe consider reaching out to see who might be interested:
:[[w:Category:Wikipedians interested in neurodiversity]]
:You could also start an equivalent category here:
:[[:Category:Wikiversitarians interested in neurodiversity]] -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 04:46, 6 May 2026 (UTC)

== Request for comment (global AI policy) ==

&lt;bdi lang=&quot;en&quot; dir=&quot;ltr&quot; class=&quot;mw-content-ltr&quot;&gt;A [[:m:Requests for comment/Artificial intelligence policy|request for comment]] is currently being held to decide on a global AI policy. {{int:Feedback-thanks-title}} [[User:MediaWiki message delivery|MediaWiki message delivery]] ([[User talk:MediaWiki message delivery|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/MediaWiki message delivery|contribs]]) 00:58, 26 April 2026 (UTC)&lt;/bdi&gt;
&lt;!-- Message sent by User:Codename Noreste@metawiki using the list at https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Distribution_list/Global_message_delivery&amp;oldid=30424282 --&gt;

== Coming over From wikinews ==

Any chance someone could help me if you are allowed to write news articles here since wikinews is going read only mode soon, thank you! [[User:BigKrow|BigKrow]] ([[User talk:BigKrow|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/BigKrow|contribs]]) 22:43, 1 May 2026 (UTC)

:The scope of Wikiversity is very broad and is basically about more-or-less any learning material. We have made it a point to not have duplicative content of other WMF projects, but since Wikinews is being shuttered, I personally am fine with writing news articles here. One thing that is not controversial at all is a learning resource &lt;em&gt;about&lt;/em&gt; how to write news: that could be hugely useful here and could involve the process of writing news stories to learn and to share back and forth with an editor or fact-checker. In fact, I'd support an entire namespace dedicated to keeping the notion of Wikinews alive here. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 23:38, 1 May 2026 (UTC)
::Thank you so much! How do I start? Cheers! @[[User:Koavf|Koavf]] [[User:BigKrow|BigKrow]] ([[User talk:BigKrow|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/BigKrow|contribs]]) 01:07, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
:::I think it's premature to start just making news articles en masse, but if you want to start discussing the topic of citizen journalism, you can do that now. [[:Category:Journalism]] already has some material, so you can start by seeing what we already have, how you can refine that, etc. You can definitely have learning resources with collaborators who want to learn about journalism ASAP. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 01:24, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
::::thanks. [[User:BigKrow|BigKrow]] ([[User talk:BigKrow|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/BigKrow|contribs]]) 01:38, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
::::If I could try and start one News Article could you please tell me how to go about it? Like what style of writing like Wikinews or something else? Thank you Justin! @[[User:Koavf|Koavf]] [[User:BigKrow|BigKrow]] ([[User talk:BigKrow|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/BigKrow|contribs]]) 01:48, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
:::::Honestly, there are very few policies and guidelines here. I think the best way to write a news story would be in a manner that is obvious and instructive. So, for instance, it's common to use the &quot;pyramid style&quot; when you're writing news, so if you were to write a story that makes it very clear that you are using that approach, that would be helpful. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 02:08, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
::::::cool thanks. [[User:BigKrow|BigKrow]] ([[User talk:BigKrow|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/BigKrow|contribs]]) 02:13, 2 May 2026 (UTC)

== Language learning  ==

toki! I am trying to add or see what the toki pona language learning stuff on here is but I don't see anything that is language learning for anything. [[User:Jan Imon|Jan Imon]] ([[User talk:Jan Imon|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Jan Imon|contribs]]) 23:13, 2 May 2026 (UTC) —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 17:29, 3 May 2026 (UTC)

:We have language materials ([[:Category:Languages]], [[World Languages]], [[Portal:Foreign Language Learning]], [[Portal:Multilingual Studies]]). They are not as developed as I think we would all like and there's not any coverage of Toki Pona, but in principle, we could and would like that. You can also see [[:b:Subject:Languages]] at our sister project Wikibooks. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 17:33, 3 May 2026 (UTC)

== Timeline format? ==

I’ve been working on the World War II articles, including the [[World War II/Timeline|timeline]], and is there a specific timeline format that should be used? Right now it’s just a table, and there’s no separation between different periods/phases of the war.

I don’t want to use [[mw:Extension:EasyTimeline]] because this will be displaying dates and not time periods. [[User:PhilDaBirdMan|PhilDaBirdMan]] ([[User talk:PhilDaBirdMan|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PhilDaBirdMan|contribs]]) 01:35, 4 May 2026 (UTC)

:I dont think we have a policy or guideline, how to format a timeline. But you may try to browes wikiversity by Google if someone was dealing with this in the past somewhow @[[User:PhilDaBirdMan|PhilDaBirdMan]]. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 12:23, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
::+1 - there's no specific guideline on how to format a timeline, it's really up to you. In my opinion I think the timeline is good. I'd personally bold the dates just to make it easier to separate it from the event description, but that's my personal 2 cents. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 14:18, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
:::I’ll probably remove links to the dates/years, they’re just Wikipedia pages that shouldn’t be over linked to. [[User:PhilDaBirdMan|PhilDaBirdMan]] ([[User talk:PhilDaBirdMan|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PhilDaBirdMan|contribs]]) 00:39, 6 May 2026 (UTC)

== Interface administrator for Codename Noreste ==

Hello, everyone. I am requesting interface administrator access on this wiki.

The main reasoning is that I would benefit from having the user right &lt;code&gt;editinterface&lt;/code&gt;, which would allow me to make dark mode changes to pages in the MediaWiki namespace, add &lt;code&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;&lt;div class=&quot;mw-parser-output&quot;&gt;&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/code&gt; to some interface pages using templates, handle interface-protected edit requests, and similar stuff. Additionally, I have some knowledge of CSS, and I would like to assist with modifying CSS pages whenever necessary, such as moving MediaWiki common.css code to TemplateStyles CSS pages.

I am requesting the maximum time that is allowed per the [[Wikiversity:Interface administrators|policy]], and I have 2FA enabled on my account. Thank you. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 00:55, 6 May 2026 (UTC)

*{{support}} Globally trusted user. ―[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:black&quot;&gt;v&lt;/span&gt;f&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 01:07, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
*{{support}} Trusted and knowledgeable. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 04:35, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
*{{support}} WV would benefit from this. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 08:32, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
*{{support}} --[[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 09:13, 7 May 2026 (UTC)

:{{Comment}} Could @[[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] delete [[MediaWiki:Gadget-WikiSign.js]], which was requested to be deleted @[[User:Koavf|Justin]], @[[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]], @[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]]? I dont think we need it. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 07:40, 9 May 2026 (UTC)
::Yes - clearly no longer used -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 10:18, 9 May 2026 (UTC)
::: I can't delete it because I don't have the required permissions to do so.
::: On a side note, if this project has a need for permanent interface administrators, I would suggest that we have a minimum of two IAs, similar to how there must be two CUs and/or suppressors (or none). Maybe Koavf can be a good candidate if I am elected for permanent interface adminship, and I believe that permission shouldn't be removed from someone's own account. Instead, a bureaucrat should do it. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 13:20, 9 May 2026 (UTC)
::::I am willing and happy to do it, unfortunately, we do not have an appetite for indef IAs and just had a discussion that resulted in a [https://en.wikiversity.org/w/index.php?title=Wikiversity:Interface_administrators&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2807543 consensus that we can have IAs that have the user rights for 14 to 120 days]. So once you have the rights, please make sure to gopher it. ―[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:black&quot;&gt;v&lt;/span&gt;f&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 17:54, 9 May 2026 (UTC)
:::::@[[User:Koavf|Koavf]] give it time. Look at me, I was in favor of shorter time, now I am looking back to times, when custodians could do it without the need of extra flag. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 18:31, 9 May 2026 (UTC)
::::::Here's hoping. I think it would reduce administrative overhead, but that's just me and I'm not a bureaucrat here. ―[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:black&quot;&gt;v&lt;/span&gt;f&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 18:33, 9 May 2026 (UTC)
::::Complicated. Where are the times, admins could do everything! [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 18:27, 9 May 2026 (UTC)

== [[Wikiversity:Bureaucratship]] to become a policy ==

Following the recent approval of [[Wikiversity:Curators]] as a policy, I think [[Wikiversity:Bureaucratship]] may also be ready for policy status.

Please share your views about whether bureaucratship is ready to become a policy, or whether further revisions are needed.

-- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 13:58, 9 May 2026 (UTC)
: I added a logo about that user group, but other than that, it looks good to me. {{support}}. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 14:38, 9 May 2026 (UTC)
:I think that the consensus on this policy is proven by years of using it without further changes. But I I have to say weather I agree with this to become a policy, than of course {{support}}. It works and there were no major issues with it. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 18:45, 9 May 2026 (UTC)</text>
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      <comment>/* New titles for user right nominations */ :An svg icon for [[Wikiversity:Curatorship|curators]] would also be helpful</comment>
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== Requested update to [[Wikiversity:Interface administrators]] ==

Currently, [[Wikiversity:Interface administrators]] is a policy that includes a caveat that interface admins are not required long-term and that user right can only be added for a period of up to two weeks. I am proposing that we remove this qualification and allow for indefinite interface admin status. I think this is useful because there are reasons for tweaking the site CSS or JavaScript (e.g. to comply with dark mode), add gadgets (e.g. importing Cat-a-Lot, which I would like to do), or otherwise modifying the site that could plausibly come up on an irregular basis and requiring the overhead of a bureaucrat to add the user rights is inefficient. In particular, I am also going to request this right if the community accepts indefinite interface admins. Thoughts? —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 23:23, 17 August 2025 (UTC)

:And who will then monitor them to make sure they don't damage the project in any way, or abuse the rights acquired in this way? For large projects, this might not be a problem, but for smaller projects like the English Wikiversity, I'm not sure if there are enough users who would say, something is happening here that shouldn't be happening. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 10:28, 20 August 2025 (UTC)
::Anyone would be who. This argument applies to any person with any advanced rights here. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 10:46, 20 August 2025 (UTC)
:I think it is reasonable to allow for longer periods of access than 2 weeks to interface admin and support adjusting the policy to allow for this flexibility. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 04:57, 2 December 2025 (UTC)
::+1 —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 16:38, 25 January 2026 (UTC)
:@[[User:Koavf|Koavf]] I agree that the two-week requirement could be revised, but wouldn’t people just request access for a specific purpose anyway? Instead of granting indefinite access, they should request the specific time frame they need the rights for—until the planned fixes are completed—and then request an extension if more time is required. We could remove the two-week criterion while still keeping the access explicitly temporary. [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 02:48, 25 January 2026 (UTC)
::I just don't see why this wiki needs to be different than all of the others. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 07:18, 25 January 2026 (UTC)
:::There isn’t really much of a need for a permanent one at this point in time [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 09:53, 25 January 2026 (UTC)
:I quite agree with this proposal, so long as they perform the suggested changes as mentioned here. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 04:06, 26 January 2026 (UTC)
:: Just to clarify, I support '''indefinite interface admin status'''. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 18:34, 13 April 2026 (UTC)
:I think there is decent consensus for lengthening this, but not necessarily for indefinite permissions, so does anyone object to me revising it to the standard being 120 days instead of two weeks? I'll check back on this thread in three weeks and if there's no objection, I'll make the change. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 20:47, 13 April 2026 (UTC)
::Sure [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 23:27, 13 April 2026 (UTC)
::Thanks for proposing this, Justin. I agree with the proposal to lengthen the interface admin period from 2 weeks but not indefinitely. Can I check the source(s) for the standard being 120 days (I'm guessing policies on other projects or maybe global policy?)? In any case, I think it is reasonable for us to adopt a similar period. However, note on the current policy discussion page notes from @[[User:Dave Braunschweig|Dave Braunschweig]] arguing for shorter periods to lower risk, that's why it is 2 weeks. But if there are projects that need longer access, that should also be accommodated. Maybe we could adjust the policy to specify that ''interface admin rights can be given for 14 to 120 days depending on how long is required and what is supported by the community''. Sincerely, James -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 08:29, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
:::There was there was no source for 120: it was just more than 14 and less than infinity. The &quot;14 to 120&quot; also seems reasonable. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 14:33, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
::: On some small/medium-sized wikis, such as English Wikibooks and English Wikiquote for example, indefinite interface administrator access for administrators is allowed, but they tend not to make changes to the CSS and JS page changes unless it's truly necessary. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 14:34, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
:::It's a good idea to make the length of this right on request or allow to be prolonged. However, IA should test large changes somewhere else, for example on the en.wv mirror, and only after testing it on the mirror, adapt it to the live version. That means I can't imagine a time-consuming operation right now. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 20:04, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
::::Sorry, what mirror is this? Are you talking about beta.wv? —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 20:32, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
:::::Not beta.wv. Basically somewhere else then on a live wiki. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 20:59, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
:::::: Wouldn't testing on a user's own common.css page work anyway? [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 21:36, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
:Change made here: https://en.wikiversity.org/w/index.php?title=Wikiversity%3AInterface_administrators&amp;diff=2807543&amp;oldid=2806289 —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 13:35, 4 May 2026 (UTC)

== [[Template:AI-generated]] ==

After going through the plethora of ChatGPT-generated pages made by [[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]] (with many more pages to go), I'd like community input on this proposal to [[Wikiversity:Artificial intelligence]] that I think would be benefical for the community:
*Resources generated by AI '''must''' be indicated as so through the project box, [[Template:AI-generated]], on either the page or the main resource (if the page is a part of a project).
I do not believe including a small note/reference that a page is AI-generated is sufficient, and I take my thinking from [[WV:Original research|Wikiversity's OR policy]] for OR work: ''Within Wikiversity, all original research should be clearly identified as such''. I believe resources created from AI should also be clearly indicated as such, especially since we are working on whether or not AI-generated resources should be allowed on the website (discussion is [[Wikiversity talk:Artificial intelligence|here]], for reference). This makes it easier for organizational purposes, and in the event ''if'' we ban AI-generated work. 

I've left a message on Lee's talk page over a week ago and did not get a response or acknowledgement, so I'd like for the community's input for this inclusion to the policy. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 15:53, 26 January 2026 (UTC)

:I believe that existing Wikiversity policies are sufficient. Authors are responsible for the accuracy and usefulness of the content that is published. This policy covers AI-generated content that is: 1) carefully reviewed by the author publishing it, and 2) the source is noted.   [[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]] ([[User talk:Lbeaumont|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Lbeaumont|contribs]]) 19:38, 27 January 2026 (UTC)
::A small reference for pages that are substantially filled with Chat-GPT entries, like [[Real Good Religion]], [[Attributing Blame]], [[Fostering Curiosity]], are not sufficient IMO and a project box would be the best indicator that a page is AI-generated (especially when there is a mixture of human created content AND AI-generated content, as present in a lot of your pages). This is useful, especially considering the notable issues with AI (including hallucinations and fabrication of details), so viewers and support staff are aware. These small notes left on the pages are not as easily viewable as a project box or banner would be. I really don't see the issue with a clear-label guideline. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 22:34, 27 January 2026 (UTC)
::{{ping|Lbeaumont}} I noticed your reversions [https://en.wikiversity.org/w/index.php?title=Exploring_Existential_Concerns&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2788278 here] &amp; [https://en.wikiversity.org/w/index.php?title=Subjective_Awareness&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2788257 here]. I'd prefer to have a clean conversation regarding this proposition. Please voice your concerns here. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 15:53, 28 January 2026 (UTC)
:::Regarding Subjective Awareness, I distinctly recall the effort I went to to write that the old-fashioned way. It is true that ChatGPT assisted me in augmenting the list of words suggested as candidate subjective states. This is a small section of the course, is clearly marked, and makes no factual claim. Marking the entire course as AI-generated is misleading. I would have made these comments when I reverted your edit; however, the revert button does not provide that opportunity.
:::Regarding the Exploring Existential Concerns course, please note this was adapted from my EmotionalCompetency.com website, which predates the availability of LLMs. The course does include two links, clearly labeled as ChatGPT-generated. Again, marking the entire course as AI-generated is misleading.
:::On a broader issue, I don't consider your opinions to have established a carefully debated and adopted Wikiversity policy. You went ahead and modified many of my courses over my clearly stated objections. Please let this issue play out more completely before editing my courses further. Thanks.   [[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]] ([[User talk:Lbeaumont|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Lbeaumont|contribs]]) 15:11, 29 January 2026 (UTC)
::::Understood, and I respect your position. I apologize if my edits were seen as overarching. We could change the project box to &quot;a portion of this resource was generated by AI&quot;, or something along those lines. Feel free to revert my changes where you see fit, and I encourage more users to provide their input. EDIT: I've made changes to the template to indicate that a portion of the content has been generated from an LLM. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 15:50, 29 January 2026 (UTC)
:::::Thanks for this reply. The new banner is unduly large and alarming. There is no need for alarm here. The use of AI is not harmful per se. Like any technology, it can be used to help or to harm. I take care to craft prompts carefully, point the LMM to reliable source materials, and to carefully read and verify the generated text before I publish it. This is all in keeping with long-established Wikiversity policy. We don't want to use a  [[w:One-drop_rule|one-drop rule]] here or cause a [[w:Satanic_panic|satanic panic]]. We can learn our lessons from history here. I don't see any pedagogical reason for establishing a classification of &quot;AI generated&quot;, but if there is a consensus that it is needed, perhaps it can be handled as just another category that learning resources can be assigned to. I would rather focus on identifying any errors in factual claims than on casting pejorative bias toward AI-generated content. An essay on the best practices for using LMM on Wikiveristy would be welcome.   [[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]] ([[User talk:Lbeaumont|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Lbeaumont|contribs]]) 15:58, 30 January 2026 (UTC)
::::::The new banner mimics the banner that is available on the English Wikibooks (see [[b:Template:AI-generated]] &amp; [[b:Template:Uses AI]]), so my revisions aren't unique in this aspect. At this point, I'd welcome other peoples' inputs. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 19:40, 30 January 2026 (UTC)

== How do I start making pages? ==
Is there a notability guideline for Wikiversity? What is the sourcing policy for information? What is the Manual of Style? What kind of educational content qualifies for Wikiversity? All the introduction pages are a bit unclear. 
[[User:VidanaliK|VidanaliK]] ([[User talk:VidanaliK|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/VidanaliK|contribs]]) 02:25, 28 January 2026 (UTC)

:{{ping|VidanaliK}} Welcome to Wikiversity! I've left you a welcome message on your talk page. That should help you out. Make sure to especially look at [[Wikiversity:Introduction]]. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 03:11, 28 January 2026 (UTC)
::It says that I can't post more pages because I have apparently exceeded the new page limit. How long does it take before that new page limit expires? [[User:VidanaliK|VidanaliK]] ([[User talk:VidanaliK|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/VidanaliK|contribs]]) 16:57, 28 January 2026 (UTC)
:::This is a restriction for new users so that Wikiversity is not hit with massive spam. As for when this limit will expire, it should be a few days or after a certain number of edits. It's easy to overcome, though I do not have the exact numbers atm. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 15:08, 29 January 2026 (UTC)
::::OK, I think I got past the limit. [[User:VidanaliK|VidanaliK]] ([[User talk:VidanaliK|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/VidanaliK|contribs]]) 17:21, 29 January 2026 (UTC)
==Why does it feel like Wikiversity is no longer really active anymore?==
I've been looking at recent changes, and both today and yesterday there haven't been many changes that I haven't made; it feels like walking through a ghost town, is this just me or is Wikiversity not really active anymore? [[User:VidanaliK|VidanaliK]] ([[User talk:VidanaliK|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/VidanaliK|contribs]]) 03:54, 30 January 2026 (UTC)

:There is fewer people editing these days compared to the past. Many newcomers tend to edit in Wikipedia instead. [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 06:39, 30 January 2026 (UTC)
:It’s a little slow, but I’m happy to know that Wikiversity is a place that I think should provide value even if the activity of editors fluctuates. If it’s any consolation your edits may be encouraging for some anonymous newcomer to start edits on their own! I think it’s hard to build community when there is such a wide variety of interests and a smaller starting userbase. Also sometimes the getting into a particular topic that already exists can be intimidating because some relics (large portals, school, categories, etc.) have intricate, unique and generally messy levels of organization. [[User:IanVG|IanVG]] ([[User talk:IanVG|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/IanVG|contribs]]) 22:16, 9 March 2026 (UTC)
:I'd say it comes down to working hard for Wikiversity, basically if somebody or a group of people will start presenting good ideas and they turn out to be provably stable.
:I even asked Google's &quot;AI Mode&quot;, what is Wikiversity famous for? Unfortunately it could not answer that.
:Simply, we have not made Wikiversity famous by presenting really provable stable ideas yet. My hope is that this time might come. Perhaps even this year 2026!
:Hope dies last. [[User:ThinkingScience|ThinkingScience]] ([[User talk:ThinkingScience|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ThinkingScience|contribs]]) 10:12, 27 April 2026 (UTC)

== Inactivity policy for Curators ==

I was wondering if there is a specific inactivity polity for curators (semi-admins) as I am pretty sure the global policy does not apply to them as they are not ''fully'' sysops. [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 03:20, 15 February 2026 (UTC)

:Unfortunately, I don't see an inactivity policy, but if we were to create such a new policy for curators, it should be the same for custodians (administrators). [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 18:45, 15 February 2026 (UTC)
::@[[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] There is currently none, that I could find, for custodians either. [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 00:47, 17 February 2026 (UTC)
:::I think we should propose a local inactivity policy for custodians (and by extension, curators), which should be at least one year without any edits ''and'' logged actions. However, I don't know which page should it be when the inactivity removal procedure starts. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 00:53, 17 February 2026 (UTC)
::::@[[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] In theory, there should be a section added at [[WV:Candidates for custodianship]] [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 00:55, 17 February 2026 (UTC)
::::: To be consistent with the [[meta:Admin activity review|global period of 2 years inactivity]] for en.wv  [[Wikiversity:Custodianship#Notes|Custodians]] and [[Wikiversity:Bureaucratship#How are bureaucrats removed?|Bureaucrats]] we could add something like this to [[Wikiversity:Curators]]:
::::::The maximum time period of inactivity &lt;u&gt;without community review&lt;/u&gt; for curators is two years (consistent with  the [[:meta:Category:Global policies|global policy]] described at [[meta:Admin activity review|Admin activity review]] which applies for [[Wikiversity:Custodianship#Notes|Custodians]] and [[Wikiversity:Bureaucratship|Bureaucrats]]). After that time a custodian will remove the rights.
::::: -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 10:51, 27 March 2026 (UTC)
:::::Yup, I agree with Jtneill, there is a policy proposal for Wikiversity:Curators, where it should be logically deployed. The question is if we are ready to aprove the policy. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 17:43, 17 April 2026 (UTC)
:::::: I agree, but we should notify the colloquium about inactive curators, just like a steward would do for inactive custodians and bureaucrats per [[:m:Admin activity review|AAR]]. What is the minimum timeframe an inactive curator should receive so they can respond they would keep their rights? [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 17:49, 17 April 2026 (UTC)
:I incorporated these suggestions into the proposed curators policy. Please review/comment/improve. Summary: 2 years, notify curator's user page, then remove rights after 1 month: [[Wikiversity:Curators#Inactivity]]. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 08:59, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
:: @[[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] I created [[Template:Inactive curator]] for this. Feel free to make any changes or improvements. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 14:29, 24 April 2026 (UTC)

== [[Wikiversity:Artificial intelligence]] to become an official policy ==
{{Archive top|After running for a week, there is consensus, alongside comments, for [[Wikiversity:Artificial intelligence]] to be implemented as an official policy. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 23:27, 17 April 2026 (UTC)}}
With the introduction of AI-material, and some material just plain disruptive, its imperative that Wikiversity catches up with its sister projects and implements an official AI policy that we can work with. The recent issue of [[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]]'s 50+ articles that contain significantly large AI-generated material has made me came to the Colloquium. This user has also been removing the [[Template:AI-generated]] template from their pages, calling it &quot;misleading&quot;, &quot;alarmist&quot;, and &quot;pejorative&quot; - which is all just simply nonsensical rationales. Not to even mention this user's contributions to the English Wikipedia have been [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Inner_Development_Goals contested] and [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Multipolar_trap removed] a couple of times (for being low-quality and clearly LLM-generated), highlighting the need for an actual policy to be implemented here on Wikiversity. I would like to ping {{ping|Juandev}} and {{ping|Jtneill}} for their thoughts as well, since I'd like this to be implemented as soon as possible. 

Wikiversity has a significant issue with implementing anti-disruptive measures, hence why we have received numerous complaints as a community about our quality. I originally was reverting the removal of the templates, but realized that this is still a proposed policy, which it shouldn't be anymore. It should be a recognized Wikiversity policy. 14:54, 10 March 2026 (UTC) —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 14:54, 10 March 2026 (UTC)

:@[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] '''I agree''' that the draft, should become official policy. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 17:00, 10 March 2026 (UTC)
:I provided a detailed response at: [[Wikiversity talk:Artificial intelligence#Evolving a Wikiversity policy on AI]]
:I will appreaciate it if you consder that carefully. [[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]] ([[User talk:Lbeaumont|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Lbeaumont|contribs]]) 22:49, 10 March 2026 (UTC)
:Agree it should become official Wikiversity policy on the condition &lt;u&gt;that point point 5 is about [significant/substantial] LLM-generated text specifically&lt;/u&gt;. Not a good idea to overuse it, it should be added when there is substantial AI-generated text on the page, not for other cases. [[User:Prototyperspective|Prototyperspective]] ([[User talk:Prototyperspective|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Prototyperspective|contribs]]) 12:37, 11 March 2026 (UTC)
:What policy is being debated? Is it the text on this page, which is pointed to by the general banner, or the text at:   [[Wikiversity:Artificial intelligence|Wikiversity:Artificial intelligence,]]   which is pointed to by the specific banner? Let's begin with coherence on the text being debated. Thanks!  [[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]] ([[User talk:Lbeaumont|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Lbeaumont|contribs]]) 11:49, 17 March 2026 (UTC)
::@[[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]] This is a call for approval of the new Wikiversity policy. You expressed your opinion [[Wikiversity talk:Artificial intelligence#Evolving a Wikiversity policy on AI|on the talk page of the proposal]], I replied to you and await your response.When creating policies, it is necessary to propose specific solutions. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 14:12, 17 March 2026 (UTC)
:::Toward a Justified and Parsimonious AI Policy 
:::As we collaborate to develop a consensus policy on the use of Large Language Models, it is wise to begin by considering the needs of the various stakeholders to the policy.
:::The stakeholders are:
:::1)     The users, 
:::2)     The source providers, and
:::3)     The editors
:::There may also be others with a minor stake in this policy, including the population at large.
:::The many needs of the users are currently addressed by long-standing [[Wikiversity:Policies|Wikiversity policies]], so we can focus on what, if any, additional needs arise as LLMs are deployed. 
:::As always, users need assurance that propositional statements are accurate. This is covered by the existing policy on [[Wikiversity:Verifiability|verifiably]]. In addition, it is expected by both the users and those that provide materials used as sources for the text are [[Wikiversity:Cite sources|accurately attributed]]. This is also covered by [[Wikiversity:Cite sources|existing policies]].
:::To respect the time and effort of editors, a parsimonious policy will unburden editors from costly requirements that exceed benefits to the users.
:::Finally, it is important to recognize that because attention is our most valuable seizing attention unnecessarily is a form of theft. 
:::The following proposed policy statement results from these considerations:
:::Recommended Policy statement:
:::·       Editors [[Wikiversity:Verifiability|verify the accuracy]] of propositional statements, regardless of the source.
:::·       Editors [[Wikiversity:Cite sources|attribute the source]] of propositional statements. In the case of LLM, cite the LLM model and the prompt used.
:::·       Use of various available templates to mark the use of LLM are optional. Templates that are flexible in noting the type and extend of LLM usage are preferred. Templates that avoid unduly distracting or alarming the user are preferred. [[User:Lbeaumont|Lbeaumont]] ([[User talk:Lbeaumont|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Lbeaumont|contribs]]) 19:56, 19 March 2026 (UTC)
::::Do we discuss here or there? I have replied you there as your proposal is about that policy so it is tradition to discuss it at the affected talk page. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 21:59, 19 March 2026 (UTC)
: {{support}} Thanks for the proposed policy development and discussion; also note proposed policy talk page discussion: [[Wikiversity talk:Artificial intelligence]] -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 12:05, 24 March 2026 (UTC)
::I think the Wikiversity AI policy shall be official. – [[User:RestoreAccess111|RestoreAccess111]] &lt;sup style=&quot;font-family:Arimo, Arial;&quot;&gt;[[User talk:RestoreAccess111|Talk!]]&lt;/sup&gt; &lt;sup style=&quot;font-family:Times New Roman, Tinos;&quot;&gt;[[Special:Contributions/RestoreAccess111|Watch!]]&lt;/sup&gt; 06:11, 13 April 2026 (UTC)
{{archive bottom}}

== New titles for user right nominations ==
&lt;div class=&quot;cd-moveMark&quot;&gt;''Moved from [[Wikiversity talk:Candidates for Custodianship#New titles for user right nominations]].  [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 23:20, 17 April 2026 (UTC)''&lt;/div&gt;

I would like to propose the following retitles should a user be nominated for any of the following user rights:
* Curator: Candidates for Curatorship
* Bureaucrat: Candidates for Bureaucratship
The reason is that many curator (and probably bureaucrat) requests have run solely under {{tq|Candidates for Custodianship}}, but that title might sound misleading (especially in regards to the permission a user is requesting). CheckUser and Oversight (suppressor) are not included above since no user was nominated for these sensitive permissions, probably. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 01:30, 19 March 2026 (UTC)

:And it's not that when someone at the beginning misplaced the request, no one thought to move it and the others copied it. Even today, it would be possible to simply take it all and move it. Otherwise, for me, the more fundamental problem is that there is [[Wikiversity:Curators|no approved policy for curators]] than where the requests are based. Curators then operate in a certain vacuum and if one of them &quot;breaks out of the chain&quot;, the average user doesn't have many transparent tools to deal with it, because there is no policy. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 07:02, 19 March 2026 (UTC)
::I am not talking about the curator page (policy proposal). [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 19:08, 21 March 2026 (UTC)
: @[[User:Juandev|Juandev]] I'll see if I can do an overhaul of [[Wikiversity:Candidates for Custodianship]], just like I recently did with the Requests for adminship page on English Wikiquote. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 22:17, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
:Yes, great idea - ideally there will be separate &quot;Candidates for ...&quot; pages for each user right group. The most important for now is to separate curator and custodian pages as CN suggests. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 11:39, 1 May 2026 (UTC)
:So maybe I previously misunderstood. Are you proposing separated pages for nominations (i.e. [[Wikiversity:Candidates for Curatorship]], [[Wikiversity:Candidates for Bureaucratship]], [[Wikiversity:Candidates for Custodianship]])? [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 12:30, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
:: Yes. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 13:33, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
:::I see, then I am fine with that @[[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]]. Sorry for misunderstanding. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 18:35, 9 May 2026 (UTC)

I've split the user rights nomination pages into:
* [[Wikiversity:Candidates for CheckUser]]
* [[Wikiversity:Candidates for Curatorship]]
* [[Wikiversity:Candidates for Custodianship]]
* [[Wikiversity:Candidates for Bureaucratship]]

Please review. There are likely several links to update, text to adjust, categories to manage, short-cuts to fix etc. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 04:22, 10 May 2026 (UTC)

:Thanks, great job @[[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]]. I am wondering if we need to move archived nominations too, or if we are OK with the actual state. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 08:08, 10 May 2026 (UTC)
::Yes, I think that would be helpful. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 10:46, 10 May 2026 (UTC)
:An svg icon for [[Wikiversity:Curatorship|curators]] would also be helpful. We have them for other user rights: [[c:Category:Wikiversity user rights icons]] -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 10:54, 10 May 2026 (UTC)

== Technical Request:  Courtesy link.. ==

[[Template_talk:Information#Background_must_have_color_defined_as_well]] [[User:ShakespeareFan00|ShakespeareFan00]] ([[User talk:ShakespeareFan00|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ShakespeareFan00|contribs]]) 11:43, 20 March 2026 (UTC)
: I can't edit the template directly as it need an sysop/interface admin to do it. [[User:ShakespeareFan00|ShakespeareFan00]] ([[User talk:ShakespeareFan00|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ShakespeareFan00|contribs]]) 11:43, 20 March 2026 (UTC)
:: Also if the Template field of - https://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Special:LintErrors/night-mode-unaware-background-color is examined, there is poential for an admin to clear a substantial proportion of these by implmenting a simmilar fix to the indciated templates (and underlying stylesheets). It would be nice to clear things like Project box and others, as many other templates (and thus pages depend on them.) :)
[[User:ShakespeareFan00|ShakespeareFan00]] ([[User talk:ShakespeareFan00|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ShakespeareFan00|contribs]]) 11:43, 20 March 2026 (UTC)

:I think it would be best to grant you interface admin rights for a short period of time to make these changes. However, I still have doubts about the suitability of this solution, which may cause other problems and no one has explained to me why dark mode has to be implemented this way @[[User:ShakespeareFan00|ShakespeareFan00]]. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 20:43, 20 March 2026 (UTC)

: I would have reservations about holding such rights, which is why I was trying to do what I could without needing them. However if it is the only way to get the required changes made, I would suggest asking on Wikipedia to find technical editors, willing to undertake the changes needed. [[User:ShakespeareFan00|ShakespeareFan00]] ([[User talk:ShakespeareFan00|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ShakespeareFan00|contribs]]) 09:32, 21 March 2026 (UTC)

== WikiEducator has closed ==

Some of you may know of a similar project to Wikiversity, called [https://wikieducator.org/Main_Page WikiEducator], championed by [https://oerfoundation.org/about/staff/wayne-mackintosh/ Wayne Mackintosh][https://www.linkedin.com/posts/waynemackintosh_important-notice-about-the-oer-foundation-activity-7405113051688931329-Nhm9/][https://openeducation.nz/killed-not-starved/].

It seems [https://openeducation.nz/terminating-oer-foundation their foundation has closed] and they are no longer operating.

They had done quite a bit of outreach (e.g., in the Pacific and Africa) to get educators using wiki.

The WikiEducator content is still available in MediaWiki - and potentially could be imported to Wikiversity ([https://wikieducator.org/WikiEducator:Copyrights CC-BY-SA] is the default license).

The closing of WikiEducator arguably makes the nurturing of Wikiversity even more important.

-- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 02:09, 1 April 2026 (UTC)

:I was never active there. If anyone has an account or is otherwise in contact, we may want to copy relevant information here or even at [[:outreach:]]. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 04:46, 1 April 2026 (UTC)

:: I reached out to [[User:Mackiwg~enwikiversity|Wayne]] in January, and he responded briefly but positively (while travelling).  I wrote to the low-traffic wikieducator mailing list today and got a nice [https://groups.google.com/g/wikieducator/c/r_yIyUw6ZIA reply] from [[user:SteveFoerster|Steve Foerster]] who's interested in helping. If we can figure out a migration path it would be great to adopt at least the main namespace pages here.  
:: A few questions that come to mind: 
:: - would people want to create matching user accounts
:: - are there any namespaces (user/talk?) that should not be moved over
:: We could look at how this was done for the [[m:Wikivoyage/Migration]] wikivoyage migration. &lt;span style=&quot;padding:0 2px 0 2px;background-color:white;color:#bbb;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash;[[User:Sj|SJ]][[User Talk:Sj|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#ff9900;&quot;&gt;+&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 04:27, 1 May 2026 (UTC)
:::That's fantastic, SJ, that you've reached out and that Wayne, Steve, and Jim are receptive—and that you can help! -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 11:52, 1 May 2026 (UTC)

== Wikinews is ending ==

Apparently mainly due to low editorial activity, low public interest, but also failure to achieve the goals from the proposal for the creation of the project, the Wikinews project is ending after years of discussions ([[Meta:Proposal for Closing Wikinews|some reading]]).

And I would be interested to see how Wikiversity is doing in the monitored metrics. We probably have more editors than Wikinews had, but what about consumers and achieving the goals? [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 19:14, 1 April 2026 (UTC)

:Wikiversity's biggest issue in recent times was the hosting of low-quality, trash content. Thankfully we've done a great job in removing pseudoscience and other embarrassingly trash content (Wikidebates, for example), but the biggest concern moving forward is proper maintenance IMO. I've caught several pseudoscience pages being created within the last few months that could easily have flown under the radar (ex, [[The Kelemen Dilemma: Causal Collapse and Axiomatic Instability]]), so I'd urge our custodians/curators to be on the lookout for this type of content. Usually an AI-overview can point this type of content out relatively well.
:In terms of visibility, I believe Wikiversity is a high-traffic project. I remember my [[Mathematical Properties]] showing up on the first page of Google when searching up &quot;math properties&quot; for the longest time (and is still showing up in the first page 'till this day!). Besides, Wikinews hosted a lot of short-term content (the nature of news articles), while Wikiversity hosts content that can still be useful a decade later (ex, [[A Reader's Guide to Annotation]]). 
:I think we are on a better path than we were a few months ago, and I do want to thank everyone here who has been helping out with maintaining our website! —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 20:48, 1 April 2026 (UTC)
:For what it's worth, the group that did that study has since disbanded, so no one is monitoring the other sister projects in the same way. Additionally, Wikinews had some catastrophic server issues due to the maintenance of [[:m:Extension:DynamicPageList]] which don't apply here. Your questions are still worth addressing, but I just wanted to cut off any concern at the pass about Wikiversity being in the same precarious situation. Wikiversity is definitely the biggest &quot;lagging behind&quot; or &quot;failure&quot; project now that Wikinews is being shuttered, but I don't see any near- or medium-term pathway to closing Wikiversity. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 00:46, 2 April 2026 (UTC)

:[[w:en:Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2026-03-31/News and notes|Entirety of Wikinews to be shut down]] (Wikipedia Signpost) -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 02:03, 11 April 2026 (UTC)

== Action Required: Update templates/modules for electoral maps (Migrating from P1846 to P14226) ==

Hello everyone,

This is a notice regarding an ongoing data migration on Wikidata that may affect your election-related templates and Lua modules (such as &lt;code&gt;Module:Itemgroup/list&lt;/code&gt;).

'''The Change:'''&lt;br /&gt;
Currently, many templates pull electoral maps from Wikidata using the property [[:d:Property:P1846|P1846]], combined with the qualifier [[:d:Property:P180|P180]]: [[:d:Q19571328|Q19571328]]. 

We are migrating this data (across roughly 4,000 items) to a newly created, dedicated property: '''[[:d:Property:P14226|P14226]]'''.

'''What You Need To Do:'''&lt;br /&gt;
To ensure your templates and infoboxes do not break or lose their maps, please update your local code to fetch data from [[:d:Property:P14226|P14226]] instead of the old [[:d:Property:P1846|P1846]] + [[:d:Property:P180|P180]] structure. A [[m:Wikidata/Property Migration: P1846 to P14226/List|list of pages]] was generated using Wikimedia Global Search.

'''Deadline:'''&lt;br /&gt;
We are temporarily retaining the old data on [[:d:Property:P1846|P1846]] to allow for a smooth transition. However, to complete the data cleanup on Wikidata, the old [[:d:Property:P1846|P1846]] statements will be removed after '''May 1, 2026'''. Please update your modules and templates before this date to prevent any disruption to your wiki's election articles.

Let us know if you have any questions or need assistance with the query logic. Thank you for your help! [[User:ZI Jony|ZI Jony]] using [[User:MediaWiki message delivery|MediaWiki message delivery]] ([[User talk:MediaWiki message delivery|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/MediaWiki message delivery|contribs]]) 17:11, 3 April 2026 (UTC)
&lt;!-- Message sent by User:ZI Jony@metawiki using the list at https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Distribution_list/Non-Technical_Village_Pumps_distribution_list&amp;oldid=29941252 --&gt;
:I didnt find such properties, so we are probably fine. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 21:00, 12 April 2026 (UTC)
:: +1 (agreed). [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 22:19, 12 April 2026 (UTC)

== Enable the abuse filter block action? ==

In light of [[Special:AbuseLog/80178]] (coupon spam), I would like to propose enabling the block action for the abuse filter. Only custodians will be able to enable and disable that action on an abuse filter, and it is useful to block ongoing vandalism. Thoughts? [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 19:12, 13 April 2026 (UTC)

:Seems like a good idea, almost all of the users which create such pages are spambots so this shouldn’t be a problem. [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 23:41, 13 April 2026 (UTC)
:Can you explain some more (I am new to abuse filters)? It looks like the attempted edit was prevented? Which abuse filter?
:Note on your suggestion, have also reactivated Antispam Filter 12 - see [[WV:RCA]]. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 10:45, 15 April 2026 (UTC)
:: I am proposing that we activate the abuse filter block action, which if a user triggers an abuse filter, it would actually block the user in question - the same mechanism that a custodian would use to block users. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 13:11, 15 April 2026 (UTC)
:::OK, thankyou, that makes sense. And, reviewing the abuse filter 12 log, it would be helpful because it would prevent the need for manual blocking. But I don't see a setting for autoblocking? -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 23:14, 15 April 2026 (UTC)
:::: I think it probably adds an autoblock. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 00:43, 16 April 2026 (UTC)
: [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] and [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]], given that a little bit more than a week has passed and there is minimal consensus to activate the abuse filter block action, I filed [[phab:T424053]]. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 15:05, 21 April 2026 (UTC)
::Thank-you for doing this. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 08:03, 24 April 2026 (UTC)

== Advice needed: A Neurodiversity-inspired Idea/observation ==

If I want the greatest participation of others to &quot;provide constructive criticism to my idea&quot; or to &quot;shoot down my idea&quot; or &quot;idea&quot;.

What I've called it so far is &quot;The Neurodiversity-inspired Idea&quot;. At other times I used more sensationalist wording but here on Wikiversity I don't dare do that. I actually woke up with thinking about putting this into my userspace draft: &quot;Personal Observations Made By Meeting Autistic and Non-Autistic Adults&quot;.

My ultimate goal is to stop blathering about my &quot;idea&quot; to friend and family without feeling my &quot;methodology&quot; is going into any progressive direction whatsoever. My latest encounter was somewhat constructive though. A friend of a friend who worked with people presenting ideas in attempting to getting grants. I don't want a grant. I just want to figure out how I can express my &quot;idea&quot; in a way so that I can more clearly figure out what flaws it got.

At the same time I tend to overthink. If anyone thinks etherpad might be a good place and considering Wikimedia already got an etherpad at https://etherpad.wikimedia.org/ if anyone feels like they know me better in the future feel free to suggest a &quot;session&quot; on etherpad.

'''If I don't receive a reply to this in 1 week's time I will begin to explore this &quot;idea&quot; into my userspace''' unless you replied and refrained me from doing so, of course. Then maybe after &quot;developing it there&quot; I might reference it to you another future time here in the Colloquium, with my &quot;idea&quot; still in my userspace draft. This &quot;idea&quot; is sort of a burden, I'm happy I've made the choice to get rid of it and hopefully move on with my life, unless there is something to this &quot;idea&quot;. 

My failure is probably evident: I feel I haven't told you anything. Same happened to when I talked to friends and family. In danger of overthinking it further I'll publish this right now. I need to &quot;keep it together&quot; [[User:ThinkingScience|ThinkingScience]] ([[User talk:ThinkingScience|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ThinkingScience|contribs]]) 10:36, 16 April 2026 (UTC)

:Good on you putting it out there ... and hitting publish :). I'd say go for it (no need to wait), give birth to your idea and share about it here and elsewhere. Let it take shape and see where it might go. In many ways, this is exactly what an open collaborative learning community should be doing. Others might not know well how to respond, so perhaps consider creating some questions to accompany the idea. Sincerely, James -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 11:21, 16 April 2026 (UTC)
::Thank you for encouraging me in developing the idea.
::I have created a &quot;questions&quot; section in the draft which is visible in the table of contents now. My brain was &quot;frozen&quot; today metaphorically speaking in that I felt I had like a &quot;writer's block&quot; so the draft has more &quot;AI/LLM&quot; content than before. I used the LLM for generating questions. The answers are so far human-only.
::I've also created a subsection where I could add the prompts that made the LLM generate the questions. That could help people make better prompts perhaps. I've described what it is about inside of it and there are some chaotically written notes.
::[[Draft:The_Neurodiversity-inspired_Idea#Questions_that_might_encourage_the_development_of_this_idea_and_its_methodology]]
::My draft is missing stuff. Any questions that you contribute to my draft will probably help me and if I don't understand the questions I'll probably notify you and also at the same time &quot;feed them&quot; to an LLM and ask in my input like &quot;explain in simple words what this question means, what is it searching for?&quot; etc. while I wait for an answer. If you have any more feedback please give it to me here or on the Draft page, its talk page or my user talk page. Thank you for helping me! [[User:ThinkingScience|ThinkingScience]] ([[User talk:ThinkingScience|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ThinkingScience|contribs]]) 21:20, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
::Today I woke up with not only thinking about supplying questions along with the &quot;idea&quot; but also answers. ie. Is it possible to &quot;test&quot; this idea? Is it possible to create one or multiple hypotheses based on this &quot;idea&quot;?(etc.) I've thought about this before in this &quot;idea&quot; but since I'm beginning to add to Wikiversity what was previously 'locked in my mind' it's also easier for me to see what I've done so far. Thank you for this comment! [[User:ThinkingScience|ThinkingScience]] ([[User talk:ThinkingScience|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ThinkingScience|contribs]]) 09:11, 23 April 2026 (UTC)
:May I think that you should not add deadlines ; being read, and rising interest for collaboration, or even simply for exchange of thoughts, such an effective meeting event loads a huge bunch of unprobability, which time can help to… somehow diminish. Maybe, I would advice you having a central place for developping your ideas, your needs, your advances, maybe a page in your own user zone, and from time to time, depending your feeling, it could be every trimester or so, or more frequently, you could write a short account of progress (or even of no progress), or a call for participation, in such a place as this present one ; I think that will increase much exposure of your projet. Maybe also, if you can find a project name, not necessarily very meaningfull by itseilf (at least it will gain signification with time, as your project develops), that will serve as a kind-of hook, and make your announcement titles more visible. Best regards (and my excuses for my poor command of English, which seems to be unplease an anti-abuse filter, &quot;Questionable Language (profanity)&quot;, which I don't understand…). My few cents. --  [[User:Eric.LEWIN|Eric.LEWIN]] ([[User talk:Eric.LEWIN|discussion]] • [[Special:Contributions/Eric.LEWIN|contributions]]) 10:06, 17 April 2026 (UTC)
::Sorry about the false positive on the profanity filter - I've fixed it. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 10:26, 17 April 2026 (UTC)
:::&quot;May I think that you should not add deadlines ; being read, and rising interest for collaboration, or even simply for exchange of thoughts, such an effective meeting event loads a huge bunch of unprobability, which time can help to… somehow diminish.&quot;
::Thank you Eric for this comment. Trust in time is how I interpret it. I should not feel like I need to be in a hurry. I'll try to give this time. Thank you!
:::&quot;Maybe, I would advice you having a central place for developping your ideas, your needs, your advances, maybe a page in your own user zone, and from time to time, depending your feeling, it could be every trimester or so, or more frequently, you could write a short account of progress (or even of no progress), or a call for participation, in such a place as this present one ; I think that will increase much exposure of your projet.&quot;
::A central place for developing or making &quot;project notes&quot; regarding the Neurodiversity idea on my userspace, I might need that, like a diary or &quot;project notes&quot; of the Neurodiversity idea similar to my course notes regarding my experience with Coursera.
::Any actions I take are going to be related to my Userspace from now on but I'll also update the draft when necessary. Now in the beginning I might be working daily to once every 3 days on both the draft and the daily notes I plan to make.
:::&quot;Maybe also, if you can find a project name, not necessarily very meaningfull by itseilf (at least it will gain signification with time, as your project develops), that will serve as a kind-of hook, and make your announcement titles more visible.&quot;
::Thank you for the advice. I was brainstorming yesterday about it. I concluded that since I've not yet developed a methodology that adheres to &quot;Do no harm&quot; and this is my first time working my &quot;idea&quot; into a way that is compatible with how projects develop on English Wikiversity this is new to me. My methodology isn't developed and therefore trying to get attention to my project through a name can wait. Yesterday I figured out a silly title that has nothing to do with the project: &quot;Planetary Awareness Potato Cabbage Rolls&quot; or something like that. Google output read that no such thing exists so I wanted it mainly to be unique. I don't want to raise attention that I'm unsure whether I'll actually be capable of developing a methodology for but project notes is my best bet so far in tracking my progress. Every day I think about this &quot;idea&quot; but I need to improve the important parts.
:::&quot;Best regards (and my excuses for my poor command of English, which seems to be unplease an anti-abuse filter, &quot;Questionable Language (profanity)&quot;, which I don't understand…). My few cents.&quot;
::You added great points and I felt that I was helped by you! I encourage you to post again and I can understand that interacting with any kind of automated filter can be discouraging and can be for me too! Thank you for giving me feedback! [[User:ThinkingScience|ThinkingScience]] ([[User talk:ThinkingScience|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ThinkingScience|contribs]]) 16:01, 18 April 2026 (UTC)

== Add some user rights to the curator user group? ==

By default, only custodians have the ability to mark new pages as patrolled (&lt;code&gt;patrol&lt;/code&gt;) and have their own page creations automatically marked as patrolled (&lt;code&gt;autopatrol&lt;/code&gt;). I am proposing both of the following:
* Curators can mark new pages as patrolled, helping on reducing the backlog of new, unpatrolled pages.
* New pages made by curators will be automatically marked as patrolled by the MediaWiki software.
Before we implement this, I would suggest implementing a proposed guideline for marking new pages as patrolled for curators and custodians.

Thoughts? [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 16:32, 17 April 2026 (UTC)

:Agree, &lt;s&gt;also can we also allow curators to undelete pages since they already have the rights to delete them?&lt;/s&gt; [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 02:54, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
::I think the requirement that undelete NOT be included came from above (meta / stewards / central office). Having access to the undelete page gives access to information that is restricted by their policies to admins (custodians and bureaucrats). -- [[User:Dave Braunschweig|Dave Braunschweig]] ([[User talk:Dave Braunschweig|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dave Braunschweig|contribs]]) 20:12, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
::: [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]], unless if requests for curator and custodian should be RfA-like processes (that is, including voting and comments), then I have to agree with Dave above. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 22:03, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
::::Oh, I didn’t realise that. Withdrawing my comment.. [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 00:08, 19 April 2026 (UTC)
:{{support}} Seems reasonable and would reduce overhead. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 14:35, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
:'''Agree''', implement it also to [[Wikiversity:Curators]] proposal please. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 17:11, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
: I went ahead and filed [[phab:T424445]]. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 15:39, 26 April 2026 (UTC)

== [[Wikiversity:Curators|Curators and curators policy]] ==
{{archive top|There is strong consensus, so [[Wikiversity:Curators]] is now a policy. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 11:15, 9 May 2026 (UTC)}}
How does it come, that Wikiversity has curators, but Curators policy is still being proposed? How do the curators exists and act if the policy about them havent been approved yet? [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 18:33, 16 October 2025 (UTC)

:It looks as if it is not just curators. The policy on Bureaucratship is still being proposed as well. See [[Wikiversity:Bureaucratship]]. —[[User:RailwayEnthusiast2025|&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Verdana; color:#008000; text-shadow:gray 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em;&quot;&gt;RailwayEnthusiast2025&lt;/span&gt;]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:RailwayEnthusiast2025|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#59a53f&quot;&gt;''talk with me!''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 18:33, 27 October 2025 (UTC)

:I think its just the nature of a small WMF sister project in that there are lots of drafts, gaps, and potential improvements. In this case, these community would need to vote on those proposed Wikiversity staff policies if we think they're ready. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 02:08, 3 December 2025 (UTC)
:What? I thought you were getting it approved, Juandev... :) [[User:I&amp;#39;m Mr. Chris|I&amp;#39;m Mr. Chris]] ([[User talk:I&amp;#39;m Mr. Chris|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/I&amp;#39;m Mr. Chris|contribs]]) 14:20, 12 February 2026 (UTC)
::Yeah I think this one is important too and we need to aprove it too @[[User:I'm Mr. Chris|I'm Mr. Chris]]. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 15:56, 12 February 2026 (UTC)
:::I thinks its ready to made into a policy, it seems to be complete and informative about what the rights does and how to get it. [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 03:08, 15 February 2026 (UTC)
::::Agree -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 11:00, 27 March 2026 (UTC)

Let's make this the official discussion about adopting the [[Wikiversity:Curators|curators policy]] policy. Your comments are invited and welcome. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 08:40, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
: There were two similar Colloquium threads in separate places about the proposed curators policy. So I've moved them to be adjacent. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 12:42, 1 May 2026 (UTC)
{{archive bottom}}

== Wikiversity:Curators to become a policy ==
{{archive top|There is strong consensus, so [[Wikiversity:Curators]] is now a policy. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 11:16, 9 May 2026 (UTC)}}
I've looked at the discussions about the Curators policy, I've looked at the practices, and it seems to me that there is no dispute about the wording of the policy, and what's more, the community has been using this proposal as if it were an offical policy for several years. Therefore, I propose that [[Wikiversity:Curators]] become a policy. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 18:35, 18 April 2026 (UTC)

:{{support}} —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 18:54, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
:{{support}} —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 20:21, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
: {{support|Yes, please}}. Especially after when I and PieWriter proposed above, I agree. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 14:27, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
:: @[[User:Juandev|Juandev]]; as of now, curators now have the user rights &lt;code&gt;autopatrol&lt;/code&gt; and &lt;code&gt;patrol&lt;/code&gt;. Perhaps we should also include that in [[Wikiversity:Custodianship]]? [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 12:07, 30 April 2026 (UTC)
:::You meant [[Wikiversity:Curators]] @[[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]]? [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 12:15, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
:::: I agree that we must develop what rules curators should follow when marking new pages as patrolled; the same can be added for custodians since they can also mark new pages as patrolled. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 13:37, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
:::::I see, well I think you can just add this to the policy. It is not major change and it probably reflects actual practice or actual technical possibilities for those flags. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 09:20, 7 May 2026 (UTC)
:{{support}} -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 12:42, 1 May 2026 (UTC)
:{{Support}} per nom. [[User:PhilDaBirdMan|PhilDaBirdMan]] ([[User talk:PhilDaBirdMan|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PhilDaBirdMan|contribs]]) 13:32, 1 May 2026 (UTC)
{{Archive bottom}}

== Inactive curators ==

Hello, even though [[Wikiversity:Curators]] is not a policy yet, there are curators listed here that have been inactive for two years or more:
* {{user|Cody naccarato}} (last edit on 13 Dec 2022, last logged action on 10 Dec 2022)
* {{user|Praxidicae}} (last edit on 10 Sep 2022, last logged action on 12 Sep 2022)
[[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 21:14, 19 April 2026 (UTC)

:Yup, I would remove the rights. To get the rights back if theyll come back should not be a big deal. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 20:08, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
:: When they don't reply by May 19, feel free (or any custodian) to do so. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 00:28, 25 April 2026 (UTC)

== Is anyone interested in Neurodiversity? ==

Is anyone interested in Neurodiversity? Is there anyone here who is interested for Neurodiversity to be &quot;something more&quot; than it already is? Does anyone here consider Neurodiversity one of the &quot;harder topics&quot; to work on or discuss? Does anyone here have an opinion about the [[Neurodiversity Movement]]? So these questions don't appear like &quot;out of a vacuum&quot; I can tell you a bit about my background:

Many years ago I got a psychiatric diagnosis &quot;Asperger's&quot;. After I stepped out of the office and my Äsperger's was 'concluded', I stepped out into the street and thought my first negative thought(but the positive thought followed after). The thought was about concentration camps in the second world war and that the world seemed to be going into the direction of &quot;labeling others&quot;. I was unsure whether this was &quot;real science&quot; and sort of &quot;challenged myself&quot; to make up my own mind after meeting people that had been given this diagnosis. The more adults with this diagnosis I met the more I started seeing &quot;patterns&quot;.

Was it a coincidence that the first person with Asperger's I met reminded me about my father later after I had plenty of times of experience with interacting with him? None of the people I interacted with online through IRC text chat...I felt I got any clue about how &quot;their brains work&quot;. Only when I met one person from the Asperger's chat community in person we both realized that whatever we experienced was akin to the &quot;chaos theory&quot;. He told me about &quot;chaos theory&quot; while I didn't know even what that term meant but I guess I 'read between the lines'. My question that I linger on still today is &quot;did he understand about me what I think I understood about him?&quot;? That our brains had the same configuration? Most autistic adults who meet other autistic adults usually get disappointed. They think the diagnosis will help them meet somebody like themselves and then they realize the great diversity in the autistic spectrum created by Psychiatry.

I later stopped interacting with autistic communities that much, I felt that it did not benefit me. Also Neurodiversity's &quot;neurotypes&quot; interested me for a while until I realized I had &quot;misunderstood everything&quot; about them and how they are used in the Neurodiversity Movement or &quot;Neurodiversity community&quot; if that even can precisely be defined? I doubt it but if you want to contribute to the [[Neurodiversity Movement]]. My previous attempts failed as I got more and more confused. I think a community project needs a community. With a lack of that I don't think it is worth my time. If any of you would like to work on that project let me know on my talk page.

So I was kinda lost and was talking to my friend and psychologist and I realized if I never talk about my idea to anyone in a &quot;comprehensive way&quot; or show that it matters to me nothing is going to ever happen. So I started talking about my &quot;idea&quot; more. Nobody could understand the &quot;idea&quot; because I had not developed my skills regarding where to start...although the process had already started &quot;automatically&quot; and that's why I often think of &quot;well my brain sort of activated me&quot;. I don't feel like I did have a plan and this idea happened. It happened &quot;by itself&quot;. My brain reacted to what I was seeing in a video or stream.

I value interaction highly in this idea. I think it would be helpful to make a community of people who are not paranoid about stuff that can express itself like &quot;don't analyze me!&quot;, &quot;don't compare me to anyone!&quot;. 

On the contrary, more often than not those adults who were diagnosed were actually openly comparing themselves with each other and I think that is healthy in a &quot;science&quot; way if done the &quot;right way&quot; which probably means &quot;Do no harm&quot;.

I found video material is important but I'm very unsure if uploading own video material to Wikimedia Commons would constitute a &quot;reasonable&quot; use of the resources there. Maybe somebody here needs to ask more questions to me that I should answer before that happens. I also know the '''be bold''' so I could just do what I think might be ok. Though I work better in a group as long as I know what &quot;group configurations&quot; help me. This is in a non-profit way. Since the state supported me this might be a way I am trying to &quot;give back&quot; to the state and &quot;the world&quot;. May seem overly ambitious and crazy but this thing gives me energy. It gives me hope when trying to develop this idea. [[User:ThinkingScience|ThinkingScience]] ([[User talk:ThinkingScience|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ThinkingScience|contribs]]) 10:47, 23 April 2026 (UTC)

:Thanks for sharing. There is plenty of room for neurodiversity community learning. However, the challenge I think is that the intersection of those interested in (a) ND, and (b) English Wikiversity might be very small (e.g., 1!) at this point in time.
:But don't give up hope. For example, Wikipedia has many more ND-interested editors; maybe consider reaching out to see who might be interested:
:[[w:Category:Wikipedians interested in neurodiversity]]
:You could also start an equivalent category here:
:[[:Category:Wikiversitarians interested in neurodiversity]] -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 04:46, 6 May 2026 (UTC)

== Request for comment (global AI policy) ==

&lt;bdi lang=&quot;en&quot; dir=&quot;ltr&quot; class=&quot;mw-content-ltr&quot;&gt;A [[:m:Requests for comment/Artificial intelligence policy|request for comment]] is currently being held to decide on a global AI policy. {{int:Feedback-thanks-title}} [[User:MediaWiki message delivery|MediaWiki message delivery]] ([[User talk:MediaWiki message delivery|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/MediaWiki message delivery|contribs]]) 00:58, 26 April 2026 (UTC)&lt;/bdi&gt;
&lt;!-- Message sent by User:Codename Noreste@metawiki using the list at https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Distribution_list/Global_message_delivery&amp;oldid=30424282 --&gt;

== Coming over From wikinews ==

Any chance someone could help me if you are allowed to write news articles here since wikinews is going read only mode soon, thank you! [[User:BigKrow|BigKrow]] ([[User talk:BigKrow|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/BigKrow|contribs]]) 22:43, 1 May 2026 (UTC)

:The scope of Wikiversity is very broad and is basically about more-or-less any learning material. We have made it a point to not have duplicative content of other WMF projects, but since Wikinews is being shuttered, I personally am fine with writing news articles here. One thing that is not controversial at all is a learning resource &lt;em&gt;about&lt;/em&gt; how to write news: that could be hugely useful here and could involve the process of writing news stories to learn and to share back and forth with an editor or fact-checker. In fact, I'd support an entire namespace dedicated to keeping the notion of Wikinews alive here. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 23:38, 1 May 2026 (UTC)
::Thank you so much! How do I start? Cheers! @[[User:Koavf|Koavf]] [[User:BigKrow|BigKrow]] ([[User talk:BigKrow|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/BigKrow|contribs]]) 01:07, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
:::I think it's premature to start just making news articles en masse, but if you want to start discussing the topic of citizen journalism, you can do that now. [[:Category:Journalism]] already has some material, so you can start by seeing what we already have, how you can refine that, etc. You can definitely have learning resources with collaborators who want to learn about journalism ASAP. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 01:24, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
::::thanks. [[User:BigKrow|BigKrow]] ([[User talk:BigKrow|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/BigKrow|contribs]]) 01:38, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
::::If I could try and start one News Article could you please tell me how to go about it? Like what style of writing like Wikinews or something else? Thank you Justin! @[[User:Koavf|Koavf]] [[User:BigKrow|BigKrow]] ([[User talk:BigKrow|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/BigKrow|contribs]]) 01:48, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
:::::Honestly, there are very few policies and guidelines here. I think the best way to write a news story would be in a manner that is obvious and instructive. So, for instance, it's common to use the &quot;pyramid style&quot; when you're writing news, so if you were to write a story that makes it very clear that you are using that approach, that would be helpful. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 02:08, 2 May 2026 (UTC)
::::::cool thanks. [[User:BigKrow|BigKrow]] ([[User talk:BigKrow|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/BigKrow|contribs]]) 02:13, 2 May 2026 (UTC)

== Language learning  ==

toki! I am trying to add or see what the toki pona language learning stuff on here is but I don't see anything that is language learning for anything. [[User:Jan Imon|Jan Imon]] ([[User talk:Jan Imon|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Jan Imon|contribs]]) 23:13, 2 May 2026 (UTC) —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 17:29, 3 May 2026 (UTC)

:We have language materials ([[:Category:Languages]], [[World Languages]], [[Portal:Foreign Language Learning]], [[Portal:Multilingual Studies]]). They are not as developed as I think we would all like and there's not any coverage of Toki Pona, but in principle, we could and would like that. You can also see [[:b:Subject:Languages]] at our sister project Wikibooks. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 17:33, 3 May 2026 (UTC)

== Timeline format? ==

I’ve been working on the World War II articles, including the [[World War II/Timeline|timeline]], and is there a specific timeline format that should be used? Right now it’s just a table, and there’s no separation between different periods/phases of the war.

I don’t want to use [[mw:Extension:EasyTimeline]] because this will be displaying dates and not time periods. [[User:PhilDaBirdMan|PhilDaBirdMan]] ([[User talk:PhilDaBirdMan|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PhilDaBirdMan|contribs]]) 01:35, 4 May 2026 (UTC)

:I dont think we have a policy or guideline, how to format a timeline. But you may try to browes wikiversity by Google if someone was dealing with this in the past somewhow @[[User:PhilDaBirdMan|PhilDaBirdMan]]. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 12:23, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
::+1 - there's no specific guideline on how to format a timeline, it's really up to you. In my opinion I think the timeline is good. I'd personally bold the dates just to make it easier to separate it from the event description, but that's my personal 2 cents. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 14:18, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
:::I’ll probably remove links to the dates/years, they’re just Wikipedia pages that shouldn’t be over linked to. [[User:PhilDaBirdMan|PhilDaBirdMan]] ([[User talk:PhilDaBirdMan|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PhilDaBirdMan|contribs]]) 00:39, 6 May 2026 (UTC)

== Interface administrator for Codename Noreste ==

Hello, everyone. I am requesting interface administrator access on this wiki.

The main reasoning is that I would benefit from having the user right &lt;code&gt;editinterface&lt;/code&gt;, which would allow me to make dark mode changes to pages in the MediaWiki namespace, add &lt;code&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;&lt;div class=&quot;mw-parser-output&quot;&gt;&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/code&gt; to some interface pages using templates, handle interface-protected edit requests, and similar stuff. Additionally, I have some knowledge of CSS, and I would like to assist with modifying CSS pages whenever necessary, such as moving MediaWiki common.css code to TemplateStyles CSS pages.

I am requesting the maximum time that is allowed per the [[Wikiversity:Interface administrators|policy]], and I have 2FA enabled on my account. Thank you. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 00:55, 6 May 2026 (UTC)

*{{support}} Globally trusted user. ―[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:black&quot;&gt;v&lt;/span&gt;f&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 01:07, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
*{{support}} Trusted and knowledgeable. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 04:35, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
*{{support}} WV would benefit from this. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 08:32, 6 May 2026 (UTC)
*{{support}} --[[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 09:13, 7 May 2026 (UTC)

:{{Comment}} Could @[[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] delete [[MediaWiki:Gadget-WikiSign.js]], which was requested to be deleted @[[User:Koavf|Justin]], @[[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]], @[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]]? I dont think we need it. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 07:40, 9 May 2026 (UTC)
::Yes - clearly no longer used -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 10:18, 9 May 2026 (UTC)
::: I can't delete it because I don't have the required permissions to do so.
::: On a side note, if this project has a need for permanent interface administrators, I would suggest that we have a minimum of two IAs, similar to how there must be two CUs and/or suppressors (or none). Maybe Koavf can be a good candidate if I am elected for permanent interface adminship, and I believe that permission shouldn't be removed from someone's own account. Instead, a bureaucrat should do it. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 13:20, 9 May 2026 (UTC)
::::I am willing and happy to do it, unfortunately, we do not have an appetite for indef IAs and just had a discussion that resulted in a [https://en.wikiversity.org/w/index.php?title=Wikiversity:Interface_administrators&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2807543 consensus that we can have IAs that have the user rights for 14 to 120 days]. So once you have the rights, please make sure to gopher it. ―[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:black&quot;&gt;v&lt;/span&gt;f&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 17:54, 9 May 2026 (UTC)
:::::@[[User:Koavf|Koavf]] give it time. Look at me, I was in favor of shorter time, now I am looking back to times, when custodians could do it without the need of extra flag. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 18:31, 9 May 2026 (UTC)
::::::Here's hoping. I think it would reduce administrative overhead, but that's just me and I'm not a bureaucrat here. ―[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''&lt;span style=&quot;color:black&quot;&gt;v&lt;/span&gt;f&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 18:33, 9 May 2026 (UTC)
::::Complicated. Where are the times, admins could do everything! [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 18:27, 9 May 2026 (UTC)

== [[Wikiversity:Bureaucratship]] to become a policy ==

Following the recent approval of [[Wikiversity:Curators]] as a policy, I think [[Wikiversity:Bureaucratship]] may also be ready for policy status.

Please share your views about whether bureaucratship is ready to become a policy, or whether further revisions are needed.

-- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 13:58, 9 May 2026 (UTC)
: I added a logo about that user group, but other than that, it looks good to me. {{support}}. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 14:38, 9 May 2026 (UTC)
:I think that the consensus on this policy is proven by years of using it without further changes. But I I have to say weather I agree with this to become a policy, than of course {{support}}. It works and there were no major issues with it. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 18:45, 9 May 2026 (UTC)</text>
      <sha1>16h9kbydxubhlgf3x9rrrvnu2x5edng</sha1>
    </revision>
  </page>
  <page>
    <title>Wikiversity:Support staff</title>
    <ns>4</ns>
    <id>55</id>
    <revision>
      <id>2808037</id>
      <parentid>2808011</parentid>
      <timestamp>2026-05-09T13:19:54Z</timestamp>
      <contributor>
        <username>Jtneill</username>
        <id>10242</id>
      </contributor>
      <comment>/* Candidates */ + File:Wikiversity Administrator.svg</comment>
      <origin>2808037</origin>
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      <text bytes="4013" sha1="cu3o65wr73jojgajhgxxh5jcn08e6h7" xml:space="preserve">{{Shortcut|WV:STAFF|WV:SUPPORT|WV:SS}}
__NOTOC__
Wikiversity staff are trusted [[Wikiversity:Users|users]] who volunteer to help maintain the site as [[Wikiversity:Curators|curators]], [[Wikiversity:Custodianship|custodians]], or [[Wikiversity:Bureaucratship|bureaucrats]]. They are happy to assist and answer any of your questions. Request assistance at [[Wikiversity:Request custodian action|request custodian action]] or contact someone directly.

== Roles ==
{| class=&quot;wikitable&quot; style=&quot;width:100%; text-align:left;&quot;
|+Overview of support staff roles
!scope=&quot;col&quot;| Role
!scope=&quot;col&quot;| Description
!scope=&quot;col&quot;| Key Permissions
|-
|scope=&quot;row&quot;| '''[[Wikiversity:Curators|Curator]]'''
| Users who help manage Wikiversity content.
| 
* [[Wikiversity:Deletions|Delete pages]]
* [[Wikiversity:Rollback|Rollback edits]]
* [[Wikiversity:Import|Import content]]
* [[Wikiversity:Page protection|Protect pages]]
|-
|scope=&quot;row&quot;| '''[[Wikiversity:Custodianship|Custodian]]'''
| Equivalent to administrators (sysops) on other Wikimedia projects.
| 
* All curator permissions
* [[Wikiversity:Blocking policy|Block users]]
* Edit user interface text
|-
|scope=&quot;row&quot;| '''[[Wikiversity:Bureaucratship|Bureaucrat]]'''
| Senior users with advanced user management permissions.
| 
* All custodian permissions
* Promote users to curator or custodian
* Grant/revoke [[Wikiversity:Bots|bot]] and [[Wikiversity:Interface administrators|interface admin]] rights
|-
|scope=&quot;row&quot;| '''Checkuser'''
| Users with access to the [[meta:Checkuser|CheckUser tool]] for investigating misuse of multiple accounts. See [[Wikiversity:CheckUser policy|CheckUser policy]].
|
* Investigate sockpuppetry and abuse
* Access technical user data
|-
|scope=&quot;row&quot;| '''[[Wikiversity:Bots|Bots]]'''
| Automated or semi-automated accounts used to perform repetitive tasks.
|
* Fix links
* Correct typos
* Update categories
* Perform maintenance tasks
|}

== Support staff directory ==
{{Shortcut|WV:STAFF/D|WV:SUPPORT/D|WV:SS/D}}

Automatically-generated lists of current Wikiversity support staff:
* [[Special:ListUsers/curator|Curators]]
* [[Special:ListUsers/sysop|Custodians]]
* [[Special:ListUsers/bureaucrat|Bureaucrats]] 

This table provides Wikiversity support staff details. Staff who have been active in the last three months (as of April 2026, based on [[Special:Log]] actions) are shown in bold. Inactive staff members may not be available to provide assistance. Missing staff members should be added.
&lt;!-- Please update [[Template:Support staff]], thank you! --&gt;
{{Support staff}}

== Candidates ==
[[File:Wikiversity Administrator.svg|right|110px]]
'''If you would like to help out as a curator or custodian on Wikiversity, please list yourself at [[Wikiversity:Candidates for Custodianship|Candidates for Custodianship]].''' You are strongly advised to familiarise yourself with [[Wikiversity:Maintenance|the maintenance page]] and  [[Wikiversity:Policy|Wikiversity policies]], and to involve yourself with non-custodial maintenance tasks before you apply. There are lots of ways you can help Wikiversity without/before becoming a custodian. See [[Wikiversity:Catalyst]] for example.

==See also==
{{Wikiversity organization}}
*[[Special:ListUsers|List of users]]
**[[Special:ListUsers/bureaucrat|Bureaucrats]]
**[[Special:ListUsers/checkuser|Checkusers]]
**[[Special:ListUsers/curator|Curators]]
**[[Special:ListUsers/sysop|Custodians]]
**[[Special:ListUsers|Users]]
*[[Wikiversity:Maintenance]]
*[[Wikiversity:Notices for custodians|Custodian notice board]] – information for custodians
*[[Wikiversity:Request custodian action]]
*[[Wikiversity:User access levels]]

==External links==
*[https://xtools.wmflabs.org/adminstats/en.wikiversity.org?actions=delete|revision-delete|log-delete|restore|re-block|unblock|re-protect|unprotect|rights|merge|import|abusefilter Staff activity on Wikiversity]

[[Category:Wikiversity administration]]
[[Category:Wikiversity custodianship|Wikiversity custodianship]]
[[Category:Wikiversity support staff]]</text>
      <sha1>cu3o65wr73jojgajhgxxh5jcn08e6h7</sha1>
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    <revision>
      <id>2808040</id>
      <parentid>2808037</parentid>
      <timestamp>2026-05-09T13:22:33Z</timestamp>
      <contributor>
        <username>Jtneill</username>
        <id>10242</id>
      </contributor>
      <comment>/* See also */ Remove antiquated Wikiversity organization template</comment>
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      <text bytes="3984" sha1="5oyyw4f1n6x61arcqu3q7xjjfcvp1ip" xml:space="preserve">{{Shortcut|WV:STAFF|WV:SUPPORT|WV:SS}}
__NOTOC__
Wikiversity staff are trusted [[Wikiversity:Users|users]] who volunteer to help maintain the site as [[Wikiversity:Curators|curators]], [[Wikiversity:Custodianship|custodians]], or [[Wikiversity:Bureaucratship|bureaucrats]]. They are happy to assist and answer any of your questions. Request assistance at [[Wikiversity:Request custodian action|request custodian action]] or contact someone directly.

== Roles ==
{| class=&quot;wikitable&quot; style=&quot;width:100%; text-align:left;&quot;
|+Overview of support staff roles
!scope=&quot;col&quot;| Role
!scope=&quot;col&quot;| Description
!scope=&quot;col&quot;| Key Permissions
|-
|scope=&quot;row&quot;| '''[[Wikiversity:Curators|Curator]]'''
| Users who help manage Wikiversity content.
| 
* [[Wikiversity:Deletions|Delete pages]]
* [[Wikiversity:Rollback|Rollback edits]]
* [[Wikiversity:Import|Import content]]
* [[Wikiversity:Page protection|Protect pages]]
|-
|scope=&quot;row&quot;| '''[[Wikiversity:Custodianship|Custodian]]'''
| Equivalent to administrators (sysops) on other Wikimedia projects.
| 
* All curator permissions
* [[Wikiversity:Blocking policy|Block users]]
* Edit user interface text
|-
|scope=&quot;row&quot;| '''[[Wikiversity:Bureaucratship|Bureaucrat]]'''
| Senior users with advanced user management permissions.
| 
* All custodian permissions
* Promote users to curator or custodian
* Grant/revoke [[Wikiversity:Bots|bot]] and [[Wikiversity:Interface administrators|interface admin]] rights
|-
|scope=&quot;row&quot;| '''Checkuser'''
| Users with access to the [[meta:Checkuser|CheckUser tool]] for investigating misuse of multiple accounts. See [[Wikiversity:CheckUser policy|CheckUser policy]].
|
* Investigate sockpuppetry and abuse
* Access technical user data
|-
|scope=&quot;row&quot;| '''[[Wikiversity:Bots|Bots]]'''
| Automated or semi-automated accounts used to perform repetitive tasks.
|
* Fix links
* Correct typos
* Update categories
* Perform maintenance tasks
|}

== Support staff directory ==
{{Shortcut|WV:STAFF/D|WV:SUPPORT/D|WV:SS/D}}

Automatically-generated lists of current Wikiversity support staff:
* [[Special:ListUsers/curator|Curators]]
* [[Special:ListUsers/sysop|Custodians]]
* [[Special:ListUsers/bureaucrat|Bureaucrats]] 

This table provides Wikiversity support staff details. Staff who have been active in the last three months (as of April 2026, based on [[Special:Log]] actions) are shown in bold. Inactive staff members may not be available to provide assistance. Missing staff members should be added.
&lt;!-- Please update [[Template:Support staff]], thank you! --&gt;
{{Support staff}}

== Candidates ==
[[File:Wikiversity Administrator.svg|right|110px]]
'''If you would like to help out as a curator or custodian on Wikiversity, please list yourself at [[Wikiversity:Candidates for Custodianship|Candidates for Custodianship]].''' You are strongly advised to familiarise yourself with [[Wikiversity:Maintenance|the maintenance page]] and  [[Wikiversity:Policy|Wikiversity policies]], and to involve yourself with non-custodial maintenance tasks before you apply. There are lots of ways you can help Wikiversity without/before becoming a custodian. See [[Wikiversity:Catalyst]] for example.

==See also==
*[[Special:ListUsers|List of users]]
**[[Special:ListUsers/bureaucrat|Bureaucrats]]
**[[Special:ListUsers/checkuser|Checkusers]]
**[[Special:ListUsers/curator|Curators]]
**[[Special:ListUsers/sysop|Custodians]]
**[[Special:ListUsers|Users]]
*[[Wikiversity:Maintenance]]
*[[Wikiversity:Notices for custodians|Custodian notice board]] – information for custodians
*[[Wikiversity:Request custodian action]]
*[[Wikiversity:User access levels]]

==External links==
*[https://xtools.wmflabs.org/adminstats/en.wikiversity.org?actions=delete|revision-delete|log-delete|restore|re-block|unblock|re-protect|unprotect|rights|merge|import|abusefilter Staff activity on Wikiversity]

[[Category:Wikiversity administration]]
[[Category:Wikiversity custodianship|Wikiversity custodianship]]
[[Category:Wikiversity support staff]]</text>
      <sha1>5oyyw4f1n6x61arcqu3q7xjjfcvp1ip</sha1>
    </revision>
    <revision>
      <id>2808042</id>
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      <contributor>
        <username>Jtneill</username>
        <id>10242</id>
      </contributor>
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      <text bytes="3942" sha1="j68t5oekpntavoliw5fzqdt04t3vvtg" xml:space="preserve">{{Shortcut|WV:STAFF|WV:SUPPORT|WV:SS}}
__NOTOC__
Wikiversity staff are trusted [[Wikiversity:Users|users]] who volunteer to help maintain the site as [[Wikiversity:Curators|curators]], [[Wikiversity:Custodianship|custodians]], or [[Wikiversity:Bureaucratship|bureaucrats]]. They are happy to assist and answer any of your questions. Request assistance at [[Wikiversity:Request custodian action|request custodian action]] or contact someone directly.

== Roles ==
{| class=&quot;wikitable&quot; style=&quot;width:100%; text-align:left;&quot;
|+Overview of support staff roles
!scope=&quot;col&quot;| Role
!scope=&quot;col&quot;| Description
!scope=&quot;col&quot;| Key Permissions
|-
|scope=&quot;row&quot;| '''[[Wikiversity:Curators|Curator]]'''
| Users who help manage Wikiversity content.
| 
* [[Wikiversity:Deletions|Delete pages]]
* [[Wikiversity:Rollback|Rollback edits]]
* [[Wikiversity:Import|Import content]]
* [[Wikiversity:Page protection|Protect pages]]
|-
|scope=&quot;row&quot;| '''[[Wikiversity:Custodianship|Custodian]]'''
| Equivalent to administrators (sysops) on other Wikimedia projects.
| 
* All curator permissions
* [[Wikiversity:Blocking policy|Block users]]
* Edit user interface text
|-
|scope=&quot;row&quot;| '''[[Wikiversity:Bureaucratship|Bureaucrat]]'''
| Senior users with advanced user management permissions.
| 
* All custodian permissions
* Promote users to curator or custodian
* Grant/revoke [[Wikiversity:Bots|bot]] and [[Wikiversity:Interface administrators|interface admin]] rights
|-
|scope=&quot;row&quot;| '''Checkuser'''
| Users with access to the [[meta:Checkuser|CheckUser tool]] for investigating misuse of multiple accounts. See [[Wikiversity:CheckUser policy|CheckUser policy]].
|
* Investigate sockpuppetry and abuse
* Access technical user data
|-
|scope=&quot;row&quot;| '''[[Wikiversity:Bots|Bots]]'''
| Automated or semi-automated accounts used to perform repetitive tasks.
|
* Fix links
* Correct typos
* Update categories
* Perform maintenance tasks
|}

== Support staff directory ==
{{Shortcut|WV:STAFF/D|WV:SUPPORT/D|WV:SS/D}}

Automatically-generated lists of current Wikiversity support staff:
* [[Special:ListUsers/curator|Curators]]
* [[Special:ListUsers/sysop|Custodians]]
* [[Special:ListUsers/bureaucrat|Bureaucrats]] 

This table provides Wikiversity support staff details. Staff who have been active in the last three months (as of April 2026, based on [[Special:Log]] actions) are shown in bold. Inactive staff members may not be available to provide assistance. Missing staff members should be added.
&lt;!-- Please update [[Template:Support staff]], thank you! --&gt;
{{Support staff}}

== Candidates ==
[[File:Wikiversity Administrator.svg|right|110px]]
'''If you would like to help out as a curator or custodian on Wikiversity, please list yourself at [[Wikiversity:Candidates for Custodianship|Candidates for Custodianship]].''' You are strongly advised to familiarise yourself with [[Wikiversity:Maintenance|the maintenance page]] and  [[Wikiversity:Policy|Wikiversity policies]], and to involve yourself with non-custodial maintenance tasks before you apply. There are lots of ways you can help Wikiversity without/before becoming a custodian.

==See also==
*[[Special:ListUsers|List of users]]
**[[Special:ListUsers/bureaucrat|Bureaucrats]]
**[[Special:ListUsers/checkuser|Checkusers]]
**[[Special:ListUsers/curator|Curators]]
**[[Special:ListUsers/sysop|Custodians]]
**[[Special:ListUsers|Users]]
*[[Wikiversity:Maintenance]]
*[[Wikiversity:Notices for custodians|Custodian notice board]] – information for custodians
*[[Wikiversity:Request custodian action]]
*[[Wikiversity:User access levels]]

==External links==
*[https://xtools.wmflabs.org/adminstats/en.wikiversity.org?actions=delete|revision-delete|log-delete|restore|re-block|unblock|re-protect|unprotect|rights|merge|import|abusefilter Staff activity on Wikiversity]

[[Category:Wikiversity administration]]
[[Category:Wikiversity custodianship|Wikiversity custodianship]]
[[Category:Wikiversity support staff]]</text>
      <sha1>j68t5oekpntavoliw5fzqdt04t3vvtg</sha1>
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        <id>10242</id>
      </contributor>
      <comment>&gt;Discuss the proposed [[Wikiversity:Bureaucratship]] policy [[Wikiversity:Colloquium#Wikiversity:Bureaucratship to become a policy|at the Colloquium]]</comment>
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&lt;ul&gt;
  &lt;li.&lt;/li&gt;
&lt;/ul&gt;
&lt;/div&gt;</text>
      <sha1>26p9sm1e6gkz94s4a3ayp0z28ur0hgd</sha1>
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    <revision>
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      <timestamp>2026-05-09T14:02:45Z</timestamp>
      <contributor>
        <username>Jtneill</username>
        <id>10242</id>
      </contributor>
      <comment>Discuss the proposed [[Wikiversity:Bureaucratship]] policy [[Wikiversity:Colloquium#Wikiversity:Bureaucratship to become a policy|at the Colloquium]]</comment>
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&lt;ul&gt;
  &lt;li&gt;Discuss the proposed [[Wikiversity:Bureaucratship]] policy [[Wikiversity:Colloquium#Wikiversity:Bureaucratship to become a policy|at the Colloquium]].&lt;/li&gt;
&lt;/ul&gt;
&lt;/div&gt;</text>
      <sha1>hev3evgeya36jmi5wqy81d7rm0pchgd</sha1>
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  <page>
    <title>Wikiversity:Sandbox</title>
    <ns>4</ns>
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    <revision>
      <id>2808107</id>
      <parentid>2807991</parentid>
      <timestamp>2026-05-09T23:48:41Z</timestamp>
      <contributor>
        <username>雅典娜241</username>
        <id>3071373</id>
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      <format>text/x-wiki</format>
      <text bytes="10475" sha1="57eqpfuwhuxdb0xxoumiao3yhe2yx4d" xml:space="preserve">'''Athena problem''' is an [[:w:List of unsolved problems in mathematics|unsolved problem]] in [[:w:number theory|number theory]] and [[:w:formal language theory|formal language theory]] and [[:w:order theory|order theory]], this problem is named after the ancient Greek goddess [[:w:Athena|Athena]]. Athena problem is: Give a [[:w:radix|base]] ''b'', write all [[:w:prime number|prime number]]s &gt; ''b'' in the [[:w:positional notation|positional notation]] with base ''b'', and regard them as [[:w:string (computer science)|string]]s, and find the [[:w:set (mathematics)|set]] of the [[:w:minimal element|minimal element]]s of the set of these strings under the [[:w:subsequence|subsequence]] [[:w:partially ordered set|ordering]].

By [[:w:Higman's lemma|Higman's lemma]], there are no [[:w:infinite set|infinite]] [[:w:antichain|antichain]]s for the subsequence ordering, thus there must be only finitely many such minimal elements, in other words, the set of such minimal elements must be a finite set.

== Results ==

These are the results of the Athena problem in bases 2 &lt;= ''b'' &lt;= 28:

All numbers are written in ''b'', using A to Z to represent digit values 10 to 35, &quot;{}&quot; means repeating, for example, family 12{3}45 means the sequence {1245, 12345, 123345, 1233345, 12333345, 123333345, ...} (where the members are expressed as base ''b'' strings), subscripts are used to indicate repetitions of digits, e.g. 123&lt;sub&gt;4&lt;/sub&gt;567 means 123333567 (all subscripts are written in decimal).

Base 2: 1 prime (the largest of which has 2 digits): {11}

Base 3: 3 primes (the largest of which has 3 digits): {12, 21, 111}

Base 4: 5 primes (the largest of which has 3 digits): {11, 13, 23, 31, 221}

Base 5: 22 primes (the largest of which has 96 digits): {12, 21, 23, 32, 34, 43, 104, 111, 131, 133, 313, 401, 414, 3101, 10103, 14444, 30301, 33001, 33331, 44441, 300031, 100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000013}

Base 6: 11 primes (the largest of which has 5 digits): {11, 15, 21, 25, 31, 35, 45, 51, 4401, 4441, 40041}

Base 7: 71 primes (the largest of which has 17 digits): {14, 16, 23, 25, 32, 41, 43, 52, 56, 61, 65, 113, 115, 131, 133, 155, 212, 221, 304, 313, 335, 344, 346, 364, 445, 515, 533, 535, 544, 551, 553, 1022, 1051, 1112, 1202, 1211, 1222, 2111, 3031, 3055, 3334, 3503, 3505, 3545, 4504, 4555, 5011, 5455, 5545, 5554, 6034, 6634, 11111, 11201, 30011, 30101, 31001, 31111, 33001, 33311, 35555, 40054, 100121, 150001, 300053, 351101, 531101, 1100021, 33333301, 5100000001, 33333333333333331}

Base 8: 75 primes (the largest of which has 221 digits): {13, 15, 21, 23, 27, 35, 37, 45, 51, 53, 57, 65, 73, 75, 107, 111, 117, 141, 147, 161, 177, 225, 255, 301, 343, 361, 401, 407, 417, 431, 433, 463, 467, 471, 631, 643, 661, 667, 701, 711, 717, 747, 767, 3331, 3411, 4043, 4443, 4611, 5205, 6007, 6101, 6441, 6477, 6707, 6777, 7461, 7641, 47777, 60171, 60411, 60741, 444641, 500025, 505525, 3344441, 4444477, 5500525, 5550525, 55555025, 444444441, 744444441, 77774444441, 7777777777771, 555555555555525, 44444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444447}

Base 9: 151 primes (the largest of which has 1161 digits): {12, 14, 18, 21, 25, 32, 34, 41, 45, 47, 52, 58, 65, 67, 74, 78, 81, 87, 117, 131, 135, 151, 155, 175, 177, 238, 272, 308, 315, 331, 337, 355, 371, 375, 377, 438, 504, 515, 517, 531, 537, 557, 564, 601, 638, 661, 702, 711, 722, 735, 737, 751, 755, 757, 771, 805, 838, 1011, 1015, 1101, 1701, 2027, 2207, 3017, 3057, 3101, 3501, 3561, 3611, 3688, 3868, 5035, 5051, 5071, 5101, 5501, 5554, 5705, 5707, 7017, 7075, 7105, 7301, 8535, 8544, 8555, 8854, 20777, 22227, 22777, 30161, 33388, 50161, 50611, 53335, 55111, 55535, 55551, 57061, 57775, 70631, 71007, 77207, 100037, 100071, 100761, 105007, 270707, 301111, 305111, 333035, 333385, 333835, 338885, 350007, 500075, 530005, 555611, 631111, 720707, 2770007, 3030335, 7776662, 30300005, 30333335, 38333335, 51116111, 70000361, 300030005, 300033305, 351111111, 1300000007, 5161111111, 8333333335, 300000000035, 311111111161, 544444444444, 2000000000007, 5700000000001, 7270000000007, 88888888833335, 100000000000507, 5111111111111161, 7277777777777777707, 8888888888888888888335, 30000000000000000000051, 1000000000000000000000000057, 56111111111111111111111111111111111111, 7666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666662, 27777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777707, 300000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000011}

Base 10: 77 primes (the largest of which has 31 digits): {11, 13, 17, 19, 23, 29, 31, 37, 41, 43, 47, 53, 59, 61, 67, 71, 73, 79, 83, 89, 97, 227, 251, 257, 277, 281, 349, 409, 449, 499, 521, 557, 577, 587, 727, 757, 787, 821, 827, 857, 877, 881, 887, 991, 2087, 2221, 5051, 5081, 5501, 5581, 5801, 5851, 6469, 6949, 8501, 9001, 9049, 9221, 9551, 9649, 9851, 9949, 20021, 20201, 50207, 60649, 80051, 666649, 946669, 5200007, 22000001, 60000049, 66000049, 66600049, 80555551, 555555555551, 5000000000000000000000000000027}

Base 11: 1068 primes (including 1 unproven probable prime: 57&lt;sub&gt;62668&lt;/sub&gt;)

Base 12: 106 primes (the largest of which has 42 digits): {11, 15, 17, 1B, 25, 27, 31, 35, 37, 3B, 45, 4B, 51, 57, 5B, 61, 67, 6B, 75, 81, 85, 87, 8B, 91, 95, A7, AB, B5, B7, 221, 241, 2A1, 2B1, 2BB, 401, 421, 447, 471, 497, 565, 655, 665, 701, 70B, 721, 747, 771, 77B, 797, 7A1, 7BB, 907, 90B, 9BB, A41, B21, B2B, 2001, 200B, 202B, 222B, 229B, 292B, 299B, 4441, 4707, 4777, 6A05, 6AA5, 729B, 7441, 7B41, 929B, 9777, 992B, 9947, 997B, 9997, A0A1, A201, A605, A6A5, AA65, B001, B0B1, BB01, BB41, 600A5, 7999B, 9999B, AAAA1, B04A1, B0B9B, BAA01, BAAA1, BB09B, BBBB1, 44AAA1, A00065, BBBAA1, AAA0001, B00099B, AA000001, BBBBBB99B, B0000000000000000000000000009B, 400000000000000000000000000000000000000077}

Base 13: 3197 primes (including 4 unproven probable primes: C5&lt;sub&gt;23755&lt;/sub&gt;C, 80&lt;sub&gt;32017&lt;/sub&gt;111, 95&lt;sub&gt;197420&lt;/sub&gt;, A3&lt;sub&gt;592197&lt;/sub&gt;A)

Base 14: 650 primes, the largest of which has 19699 digits

Base 15: 1284 primes, the largest of which has 157 digits

Base 16: 2347 primes (including 3 unproven probable primes: DB&lt;sub&gt;32234&lt;/sub&gt;, 4&lt;sub&gt;72785&lt;/sub&gt;DD, 3&lt;sub&gt;116137&lt;/sub&gt;AF)

Base 17: 10415 known primes (including many unproven probable primes) and 12 unsolved families (no primes or probable primes with length &lt;= 200000, nor can be proven to only contain composites)

Base 18: 549 primes, the largest of which has 6271 digits

Base 19: 31417 known primes (including many unproven probable primes) and 17 unsolved families (no primes or probable primes with length &lt;= 200000, nor can be proven to only contain composites)

Base 20: 3314 minimal primes, the largest of which has 6271 digits

Base 21: 13386 known primes (including many unproven probable primes) and 8 unsolved families (no primes or probable primes with length &lt;= 200000, nor can be proven to only contain composites)

Base 22: 8003 primes (including 1 unproven probable prime: BK&lt;sub&gt;22001&lt;/sub&gt;5)

Base 23: 65178 known primes (including many unproven probable primes) and 87 unsolved families (no primes or probable primes with length &lt;= 100000, nor can be proven to only contain composites)

Base 24: 3409 minimal primes, the largest of which has 8134 digits

Base 25: 133639 known minimal primes (including many unproven probable primes) and 85 unsolved families (no primes or probable primes with length &lt;= 100000, nor can be proven to only contain composites)

Base 26: 25256 known minimal primes (including 7 unproven probable primes: 5&lt;sub&gt;19391&lt;/sub&gt;6F, 7&lt;sub&gt;20279&lt;/sub&gt;OL, LD0&lt;sub&gt;20975&lt;/sub&gt;7, 6K&lt;sub&gt;23300&lt;/sub&gt;5, J0&lt;sub&gt;44303&lt;/sub&gt;KCB, M0&lt;sub&gt;61186&lt;/sub&gt;2BB, 85M&lt;sub&gt;197060&lt;/sub&gt;B) and 3 unsolved families ({A}6F, {H}MH, {I}GL, no primes or probable primes with length &lt;= 200000, nor can be proven to only contain composites)

Base 27: 102852 known minimal primes (including many unproven probable primes) and 44 unsolved families (no primes or probable primes with length &lt;= 100000, nor can be proven to only contain composites)

Base 28: 25528 known minimal primes (including 3 unproven probable primes: N6&lt;sub&gt;24051&lt;/sub&gt;LR, 5OA&lt;sub&gt;31238&lt;/sub&gt;F, O4O&lt;sub&gt;94535&lt;/sub&gt;9) and 1 unsolved family ( O{A}F, no primes or probable primes with length \le 709070, nor can be proven to only contain composites)</text>
      <sha1>57eqpfuwhuxdb0xxoumiao3yhe2yx4d</sha1>
    </revision>
    <revision>
      <id>2808110</id>
      <parentid>2808107</parentid>
      <timestamp>2026-05-10T00:07:18Z</timestamp>
      <contributor>
        <username>雅典娜241</username>
        <id>3071373</id>
      </contributor>
      <origin>2808110</origin>
      <model>wikitext</model>
      <format>text/x-wiki</format>
      <text bytes="10473" sha1="c23l0ofr04vtjowcdfkqawgzluaey2q" xml:space="preserve">'''Athena problem''' is an [[:w:List of unsolved problems in mathematics|unsolved problem]] in [[:w:number theory|number theory]] and [[:w:formal language theory|formal language theory]] and [[:w:order theory|order theory]], this problem is named after the ancient Greek goddess [[:w:Athena|Athena]]. Athena problem is: Give a [[:w:radix|base]] ''b'', write all [[:w:prime number|prime number]]s &gt; ''b'' in the [[:w:positional notation|positional notation]] with base ''b'', and regard them as [[:w:string (computer science)|string]]s, and find the [[:w:set (mathematics)|set]] of the [[:w:minimal element|minimal element]]s of the set of these strings under the [[:w:subsequence|subsequence]] [[:w:partially ordered set|ordering]].

By [[:w:Higman's lemma|Higman's lemma]], there are no [[:w:infinite set|infinite]] [[:w:antichain|antichain]]s for the subsequence ordering, thus there must be only finitely many such minimal elements, in other words, the set of such minimal elements must be a finite set.

== Results ==

These are the results of the Athena problem in bases 2 &lt;= ''b'' &lt;= 28:

All numbers are written in ''b'', using A to Z to represent digit values 10 to 35, &quot;{}&quot; means repeating, for example, family 12{3}45 means the sequence {1245, 12345, 123345, 1233345, 12333345, 123333345, ...} (where the members are expressed as base ''b'' strings), subscripts are used to indicate repetitions of digits, e.g. 123&lt;sub&gt;4&lt;/sub&gt;567 means 123333567 (all subscripts are written in decimal).

Base 2: 1 prime (the largest of which has 2 digits): {11}

Base 3: 3 primes (the largest of which has 3 digits): {12, 21, 111}

Base 4: 5 primes (the largest of which has 3 digits): {11, 13, 23, 31, 221}

Base 5: 22 primes (the largest of which has 96 digits): {12, 21, 23, 32, 34, 43, 104, 111, 131, 133, 313, 401, 414, 3101, 10103, 14444, 30301, 33001, 33331, 44441, 300031, 100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000013}

Base 6: 11 primes (the largest of which has 5 digits): {11, 15, 21, 25, 31, 35, 45, 51, 4401, 4441, 40041}

Base 7: 71 primes (the largest of which has 17 digits): {14, 16, 23, 25, 32, 41, 43, 52, 56, 61, 65, 113, 115, 131, 133, 155, 212, 221, 304, 313, 335, 344, 346, 364, 445, 515, 533, 535, 544, 551, 553, 1022, 1051, 1112, 1202, 1211, 1222, 2111, 3031, 3055, 3334, 3503, 3505, 3545, 4504, 4555, 5011, 5455, 5545, 5554, 6034, 6634, 11111, 11201, 30011, 30101, 31001, 31111, 33001, 33311, 35555, 40054, 100121, 150001, 300053, 351101, 531101, 1100021, 33333301, 5100000001, 33333333333333331}

Base 8: 75 primes (the largest of which has 221 digits): {13, 15, 21, 23, 27, 35, 37, 45, 51, 53, 57, 65, 73, 75, 107, 111, 117, 141, 147, 161, 177, 225, 255, 301, 343, 361, 401, 407, 417, 431, 433, 463, 467, 471, 631, 643, 661, 667, 701, 711, 717, 747, 767, 3331, 3411, 4043, 4443, 4611, 5205, 6007, 6101, 6441, 6477, 6707, 6777, 7461, 7641, 47777, 60171, 60411, 60741, 444641, 500025, 505525, 3344441, 4444477, 5500525, 5550525, 55555025, 444444441, 744444441, 77774444441, 7777777777771, 555555555555525, 44444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444447}

Base 9: 151 primes (the largest of which has 1161 digits): {12, 14, 18, 21, 25, 32, 34, 41, 45, 47, 52, 58, 65, 67, 74, 78, 81, 87, 117, 131, 135, 151, 155, 175, 177, 238, 272, 308, 315, 331, 337, 355, 371, 375, 377, 438, 504, 515, 517, 531, 537, 557, 564, 601, 638, 661, 702, 711, 722, 735, 737, 751, 755, 757, 771, 805, 838, 1011, 1015, 1101, 1701, 2027, 2207, 3017, 3057, 3101, 3501, 3561, 3611, 3688, 3868, 5035, 5051, 5071, 5101, 5501, 5554, 5705, 5707, 7017, 7075, 7105, 7301, 8535, 8544, 8555, 8854, 20777, 22227, 22777, 30161, 33388, 50161, 50611, 53335, 55111, 55535, 55551, 57061, 57775, 70631, 71007, 77207, 100037, 100071, 100761, 105007, 270707, 301111, 305111, 333035, 333385, 333835, 338885, 350007, 500075, 530005, 555611, 631111, 720707, 2770007, 3030335, 7776662, 30300005, 30333335, 38333335, 51116111, 70000361, 300030005, 300033305, 351111111, 1300000007, 5161111111, 8333333335, 300000000035, 311111111161, 544444444444, 2000000000007, 5700000000001, 7270000000007, 88888888833335, 100000000000507, 5111111111111161, 7277777777777777707, 8888888888888888888335, 30000000000000000000051, 1000000000000000000000000057, 56111111111111111111111111111111111111, 7666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666662, 27777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777707, 300000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000011}

Base 10: 77 primes (the largest of which has 31 digits): {11, 13, 17, 19, 23, 29, 31, 37, 41, 43, 47, 53, 59, 61, 67, 71, 73, 79, 83, 89, 97, 227, 251, 257, 277, 281, 349, 409, 449, 499, 521, 557, 577, 587, 727, 757, 787, 821, 827, 857, 877, 881, 887, 991, 2087, 2221, 5051, 5081, 5501, 5581, 5801, 5851, 6469, 6949, 8501, 9001, 9049, 9221, 9551, 9649, 9851, 9949, 20021, 20201, 50207, 60649, 80051, 666649, 946669, 5200007, 22000001, 60000049, 66000049, 66600049, 80555551, 555555555551, 5000000000000000000000000000027}

Base 11: 1068 primes (including 1 unproven probable prime: 57&lt;sub&gt;62668&lt;/sub&gt;)

Base 12: 106 primes (the largest of which has 42 digits): {11, 15, 17, 1B, 25, 27, 31, 35, 37, 3B, 45, 4B, 51, 57, 5B, 61, 67, 6B, 75, 81, 85, 87, 8B, 91, 95, A7, AB, B5, B7, 221, 241, 2A1, 2B1, 2BB, 401, 421, 447, 471, 497, 565, 655, 665, 701, 70B, 721, 747, 771, 77B, 797, 7A1, 7BB, 907, 90B, 9BB, A41, B21, B2B, 2001, 200B, 202B, 222B, 229B, 292B, 299B, 4441, 4707, 4777, 6A05, 6AA5, 729B, 7441, 7B41, 929B, 9777, 992B, 9947, 997B, 9997, A0A1, A201, A605, A6A5, AA65, B001, B0B1, BB01, BB41, 600A5, 7999B, 9999B, AAAA1, B04A1, B0B9B, BAA01, BAAA1, BB09B, BBBB1, 44AAA1, A00065, BBBAA1, AAA0001, B00099B, AA000001, BBBBBB99B, B0000000000000000000000000009B, 400000000000000000000000000000000000000077}

Base 13: 3197 primes (including 4 unproven probable primes: C5&lt;sub&gt;23755&lt;/sub&gt;C, 80&lt;sub&gt;32017&lt;/sub&gt;111, 95&lt;sub&gt;197420&lt;/sub&gt;, A3&lt;sub&gt;592197&lt;/sub&gt;A)

Base 14: 650 primes, the largest of which has 19699 digits

Base 15: 1284 primes, the largest of which has 157 digits

Base 16: 2347 primes (including 3 unproven probable primes: DB&lt;sub&gt;32234&lt;/sub&gt;, 4&lt;sub&gt;72785&lt;/sub&gt;DD, 3&lt;sub&gt;116137&lt;/sub&gt;AF)

Base 17: 10415 known primes (including many unproven probable primes) and 12 unsolved families (no primes or probable primes with length &lt;= 200000, nor can be proven to only contain composites)

Base 18: 549 primes, the largest of which has 6271 digits

Base 19: 31417 known primes (including many unproven probable primes) and 17 unsolved families (no primes or probable primes with length &lt;= 200000, nor can be proven to only contain composites)

Base 20: 3314 minimal primes, the largest of which has 6271 digits

Base 21: 13386 known primes (including many unproven probable primes) and 8 unsolved families (no primes or probable primes with length &lt;= 200000, nor can be proven to only contain composites)

Base 22: 8003 primes (including 1 unproven probable prime: BK&lt;sub&gt;22001&lt;/sub&gt;5)

Base 23: 65178 known primes (including many unproven probable primes) and 87 unsolved families (no primes or probable primes with length &lt;= 100000, nor can be proven to only contain composites)

Base 24: 3409 minimal primes, the largest of which has 8134 digits

Base 25: 133639 known minimal primes (including many unproven probable primes) and 85 unsolved families (no primes or probable primes with length &lt;= 100000, nor can be proven to only contain composites)

Base 26: 25256 known minimal primes (including 7 unproven probable primes: 5&lt;sub&gt;19391&lt;/sub&gt;6F, 7&lt;sub&gt;20279&lt;/sub&gt;OL, LD0&lt;sub&gt;20975&lt;/sub&gt;7, 6K&lt;sub&gt;23300&lt;/sub&gt;5, J0&lt;sub&gt;44303&lt;/sub&gt;KCB, M0&lt;sub&gt;61186&lt;/sub&gt;2BB, 85M&lt;sub&gt;197060&lt;/sub&gt;B) and 3 unsolved families ({A}6F, {H}MH, {I}GL, no primes or probable primes with length &lt;= 200000, nor can be proven to only contain composites)

Base 27: 102852 known minimal primes (including many unproven probable primes) and 44 unsolved families (no primes or probable primes with length &lt;= 100000, nor can be proven to only contain composites)

Base 28: 25528 known minimal primes (including 3 unproven probable primes: N6&lt;sub&gt;24051&lt;/sub&gt;LR, 5OA&lt;sub&gt;31238&lt;/sub&gt;F, O4O&lt;sub&gt;94535&lt;/sub&gt;9) and 1 unsolved family (O{A}F, no primes or probable primes with length &lt;= 709070, nor can be proven to only contain composites)</text>
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  </page>
  <page>
    <title>Wikiversity:Requests for Deletion</title>
    <ns>4</ns>
    <id>1791</id>
    <revision>
      <id>2808152</id>
      <parentid>2805974</parentid>
      <timestamp>2026-05-10T08:36:24Z</timestamp>
      <contributor>
        <username>Juandev</username>
        <id>2651</id>
      </contributor>
      <comment>/* False flag &quot;authority hack&quot; user page deletion */  Not undeleted per requester request drop, archived</comment>
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      <text bytes="63456" sha1="rkzrfcfucw7okgzvrxoiye4lgv3jzxj" xml:space="preserve">{{/header}}
[[Category:Wikiversity deletion]]

__TOC__

== [[Korean/Words]] ==
(I go to RfD instead of ''proposed deletion'' since many pages are affected.)

I proposed to quasi-delete, i.e. '''move to userspace''' of the main (or sole?) creator, {{User|KYPark}}.

The page is organized a little bit like a dictionary. It makes it redundant to Wiktionary except that Wikiversity allows original research and there does seem to be original research there. Thus, its being organized as a dictionary would alone not necessarily be a problem.

Where I see a problem is in the organization and execution/implementation. Consider [[Korean/Words/가다]], which seems rather typical of the subpages (some subpages are like categories and transclude the pages for individual words):
* On the putative definition line, there is this: &quot;한곳에서 다른 곳으로 장소를 이동하다&quot;, apparently(?) in Korean. That does not seem to fit well into the ''English'' Wikiversity.
* There seems to be some original research into etymological relations between Korean and European languages in the &quot;Comparatives&quot; section (from what I recall, the English Wiktionary rejected this kind of content from KYPark). Admittedly, it is marked using &quot;This is a primary, secondary and/or original Eurasiatic research project at Wikiversity&quot;, so it could be tolerable, but even so, one has to wonder whether Wikiversity wants this kind of fringe science/research or outright pseudo-science.
** Fringe science: fringe physics has been moved to user space before. This would be fringe etymology. But then, original research is allowed.

Deletion is not required; moving to user space suffices, I think. Alternatively, one could at least rename the pages to make it clear from the title that this is not Wikiversity voice but rather KYPark voice, e.g. &quot;Korean/Words (KYPark)/...&quot; or  &quot;Korean/Words/KYPark/...&quot;  (recall the &quot;Fedosin&quot; pages featuring the name &quot;Fedosin&quot;).

Methodology: I see almost no methodological notes spanning the words at [[Korean/Words]]. And yet, if this is original research inventing new etymological connections, surely there should be some general considerations/analysis on how to proceed and how that manner of procedure differs from mainstream etymology?

Prefix index (max 200 items?):
{{Small START}}
{{Special:Prefixindex/Korean/Words}}
{{Small END}}

--[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] ([[User talk:Dan Polansky|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dan Polansky|contribs]]) 09:33, 24 September 2025 (UTC)

:I would keep it. If there is a course of Korean, why not to have a resesearch on Korean vocabulary? [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 19:53, 16 October 2025 (UTC)
:: I propose to dismiss the above input: 1) it does not contain any argument, except for a question, and a question is not an argument (it can be so reinterpreted, but that includes additional burden on the interpreters, in interpreting it the wrong way); 2) it ignores all the issues I have raised, including that there is something like definition lines in Korean, in this ''English'' Wikiversity. To answer the question asked: there can be a research on Korean vocabulary in the mainspace, but not one showing the defects I identified above. --[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] ([[User talk:Dan Polansky|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dan Polansky|contribs]]) 05:35, 15 November 2025 (UTC)
:I've reviewed a sample of approximately 20 of the Korean/Words sub-pages and lean towards moving to user space because:
:* The pages appear to be an idiosynchratic collection of etymological pages about Korean language
:* There is minimal English instruction which is problematic for English Wikiversity
:* There is no explanation of research method
:* There is no educational rationale
:-- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 00:31, 22 November 2025 (UTC)
:Well, since the original creator has indef I change my mind and I would '''delete''' it. The case is nobody knows how to continue with the research and if we move it to the userspace, the user cannot improve it eihter. What the original user can do to request admin, to send them a contentent to their email for example if they really want to improve the resource elsewhere. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 08:38, 11 March 2026 (UTC)

== [[Enhancing Web Browser Security through Cookie Encryption]] ==
To avoid further conflict with the user who entered this text into Wikiversity, I am opening a RFD request.

I am not sure about how to proceed, although I am inclined to move it out of mainspace = quasi-delete. I am looking forward to get input from others, especially curators and custodians. Some considerations:

1) There is perhaps no more appearance/suspicion of copyright violation, now that the ResearchGate (RG) article (of which this is a copy, perhaps an incomplete copy?) carries a license.

2) The article is not a complete replica from RG: at a minimum, it lacks images. The inserter could have continued editing the page in his user space before he uploads images, that is, before he finalizes the page for consumption, but that did not happen. I did not check whether the text is an exact one-to-one match; the article does not indicate anything in that regard.

3) The principle implied seems to be this: users should feel free to duplicate non-peer-reviewed articles from RG in English Wikiversity, perhaps to increase the Google search and LLM yield. I find this problematic, in part for the duplication. I would say: choose a venue and publish it there. If RG is not good enough for you as a publishing venue, choose Wikiversity instead, but not both?

4) There are some features that appear unduly promotional. There is a link to a dot com home page of the inserter of the article. I dot not know how we handle or should handle this, whether prohibit such a link, etc. This is perhaps not so much a call to quasi-deletion but a call to make it less promotional.

5) I cannot determine the value of such an article. It seems to be a pseudo-article describing someone's browser extension. Can someone do a better analysis?

--[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] ([[User talk:Dan Polansky|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dan Polansky|contribs]]) 06:48, 8 October 2025 (UTC)

:2) Images for Wikicommons are being created, it will take a lot of time. and the text is not an exact one-to-one match
:3) I also mentioned that It was being created so that it is more accessible from mobile phone, which is not possible in RG or in Zenodo
:Let me clarify the purpose of uploading it to different platforms
:Zenodo - registration and to link DOI
:RG - Self Archiving 
:Wikiversity - Accessible by anyone from any device. LLMs may get trained on Wikiversity data or use these data for indexing 
:5) The paper is a result of a research project which involved a browser extension which was built to test the theory.  [[User:Tomlovesfar|Tomlovesfar]] ([[User talk:Tomlovesfar|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Tomlovesfar|contribs]]) 01:34, 9 October 2025 (UTC)
:: I find the practice here of publishing non-identical but similar text (&quot;the text is not an exact one-to-one match&quot;) with almost the same title to be problematic. I cannot imagine this is a recommended practice in academic publishing. At a minimum, somewhere near the top, the page should say something like the following: &quot;This text is based on article ___ published at ___ but is not identical. The author of the differences/changes is ___.&quot; Everything else leads to an undesirable confusion. In academic publishing, the title of an article serves as key part of identification of the artifact.
:: As I said before, I seen nothing particularly academic article-like about the page except for external/superficial signs. --[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] ([[User talk:Dan Polansky|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dan Polansky|contribs]]) 05:30, 9 October 2025 (UTC)
:::That Article has been published under CC BY SA 4.0
:::And I am one of the author of the article. That gives me right to modify text and publish it under a similar name. However, I will add the disclaimer text that you have suggested. I hope that helps.  [[Special:Contributions/&amp;#126;2025-27520-79|&amp;#126;2025-27520-79]] ([[User talk:&amp;#126;2025-27520-79|talk]]) 06:07, 9 October 2025 (UTC)
:::: It may give you that right from the ''copyright'' perspective, but perhaps not from ''academic publishing integrity'' perspective. Unfortunately, I do not have any guideline handy; I am merely following my common (or not so common) sense. --[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] ([[User talk:Dan Polansky|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dan Polansky|contribs]]) 06:32, 9 October 2025 (UTC)
:: I would like to ask: was this article guided by someone from an academic institution, such as a university? Is it reviewed at least in some weak sense? --[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] ([[User talk:Dan Polansky|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dan Polansky|contribs]]) 05:39, 9 October 2025 (UTC)
:::Yes, This article has been reviewed by two academic professors, their names are also listed as co authors.
:::First, a project guide would help us with selecting a topic and with the document 
:::Second, an Internal examiner would go through our experiment and approve it
:::Finally, External Examiner would examine the documentation and verify it. 
:::We were required by these professors to put their name under contributions [[Special:Contributions/&amp;#126;2025-27520-79|&amp;#126;2025-27520-79]] ([[User talk:&amp;#126;2025-27520-79|talk]]) 05:48, 9 October 2025 (UTC)
:: Let me explicate the promotional potential of such a page a bit: one can go to the page of the article in Wikiversity --&gt; https://tomjoejames.com/ --&gt; HitMyTarget (a commercial, profit-making entity?) Why would the link be to a commercial web site rather than an academic page, or perhaps a LinkedIn account, which I think the person has? There could also be no link at all; a search for the name would turn out something in Google as well. But providing a direct link would drive users/viewers toward that website much stronger since otherwise the viewer of the page would have to open a new Google search window or the like. --[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] ([[User talk:Dan Polansky|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dan Polansky|contribs]]) 05:45, 9 October 2025 (UTC)
:::It is evident that the website is not even close to being complete. 
:::I will be creating a separate page under the same domain name specifically for people to contact me.
:::The url would probably be defined as tomjoejames.com/contact-me/
:::I haven't decided yet. But that is my personal website.
:::If the community requires me to remove it, I will. But personally I think people who are from here most likely to click the link to know more about me or to contact me. Either way I think my personal website serves the purpose. 
:::As for the HitMyTarget, it can be traced from any of my links. From my research gate profile, linkedin page or even my own userpage.
:::On the article I did not add any promotional content about myself, I hyperlinked only my own name. I do not know how that is promotional. [[Special:Contributions/&amp;#126;2025-27520-79|&amp;#126;2025-27520-79]] ([[User talk:&amp;#126;2025-27520-79|talk]]) 06:04, 9 October 2025 (UTC)
:::: I am pausing any further responses from me to see whether anyone else has any input. --[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] ([[User talk:Dan Polansky|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dan Polansky|contribs]]) 06:30, 9 October 2025 (UTC)
:What does it mean &quot;There is perhaps no more appearance/suspicion of copyright violation&quot;? [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 19:57, 16 October 2025 (UTC)
:I have accepted VRT permission per [[ticket:2025100410001149]] FYI. [[User:Matrix|Matrix]] ([[User talk:Matrix|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Matrix|contribs]]) 11:00, 28 October 2025 (UTC)
::Thank you Matrix [[User:Tomlovesfar|Tomlovesfar]] ([[User talk:Tomlovesfar|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Tomlovesfar|contribs]]) 12:43, 28 October 2025 (UTC)
:I would '''delete''' it. 1) it states its a learning resource. It could not be a learning resource as not rewieved original research. 2) It is not an ongoing research, nor the research was performed on Wikiversity - wv is not a preprint or article database. Maybe it could be moved elsewhere withn Wikimedia domain, but I dont know where. So I would delete it. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 21:56, 20 November 2025 (UTC)
::I would '''keep it.''' Like Dan had pointed out,  we do have article-like pages in Wikiversity, and this is not just a random pseudo science article but an article that is a report of an final year project, it has been reviewed by 3 professors whose name has been mentioned at the very beginning.   [[User:Tomlovesfar|Tomlovesfar]] ([[User talk:Tomlovesfar|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Tomlovesfar|contribs]]) 14:50, 21 November 2025 (UTC)
:::I think it is not good to rate pages by appearance. It can be done on other Wikimedia projects, but it cannot be done on Wikiversity, because Wikiversity does not create a static format for presenting information, but is focused on the goal and process. Unfortunately, the goal and process do not have a uniform format. While a target article on Wikipedia or an entry on Wiktionary have some standard target format, Wikiversity does not. That is why I personally rate pages according to the goals and their assessment. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 10:05, 22 November 2025 (UTC)

Further reading for this nomination: [[S: Wikisource:Proposed_deletions/Archives/2025#Index:Cookie_Encryption.pdf]]; EncycloPetey handled the matter. Let me quote his wisdom on Zenodo (which I lack): &quot;This is tied to a PDF on Commons that was uploaded as &quot;own work&quot; with a CC license and a doi link to Zenodo, with no indication of where this paper was published or if it was published. Zenodo is not a publisher; it is a site for storing research and sharing papers. If Zenodo is the only place this was &quot;published&quot; then it was effectively self-published. --EncycloPetey (talk) 16:14, 15 September 2025 (UTC)&quot;

--[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] ([[User talk:Dan Polansky|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dan Polansky|contribs]]) 08:55, 9 October 2025 (UTC)

:Can you clarify what point are you trying to state? Didn't I already state that the article is published by me? 
:I first created the article in wikisource which I thought would be the perfect place, unfortunately they do not allow self published articles that are not notable. Then I discovered Wikiversity where they allow self published articles. That is why I created the article here. 
:Unlike in wikisource, I did follow guidelines.
:Ever since you deleted the first article, I spent time reading Wikiversity guidelines and I do think that I am following it perfectly.
:I would like to get your suggestions on how should I improve the page,  10 points would be sufficient. 
:Because your goals or intentions are confusing me very much. At first you told me that the article is exactly the same as the preprint in RG and therefore there is no use to it here. And then when I continued to optimize it for Wikiversity, you went ahead and said it is problematic according to recommended academic publishing. 
:Atleast just respond to the points that I have made whether you agree or disagree. So that I clarify and proceed to discuss points that are important and relevant 
:Have you published an research article? If yes, could you send it to me so that I can see the format you have done it [[Special:Contributions/&amp;#126;2025-27520-79|&amp;#126;2025-27520-79]] ([[User talk:&amp;#126;2025-27520-79|talk]]) 10:45, 9 October 2025 (UTC)
:: I am giving a chance/time to other curators/custodians to look at the matter and respond to my inputs. --[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] ([[User talk:Dan Polansky|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dan Polansky|contribs]]) 11:14, 9 October 2025 (UTC)
:: Incidentally, above I counted 4 questions (or more), 1 request (or more?) and 1 command (or more?). That is a behavior of a commanding entity. --[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] ([[User talk:Dan Polansky|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dan Polansky|contribs]]) 11:24, 9 October 2025 (UTC)

I would '''delete it''''. It's more like an academic communication than a learning resource or research.--[[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 07:32, 26 October 2025 (UTC)
:: In the above post, I do not see any valid rationale for deletion: we do have article-like pages, in Wikijournals and also e.g. in [[Physics/Essays/Fedosin/Stellar Stefan–Boltzmann constant]]. --[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] ([[User talk:Dan Polansky|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dan Polansky|contribs]]) 08:59, 3 November 2025 (UTC)
:::But I do, see above. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 21:56, 20 November 2025 (UTC)

:it is a '''student research paper''' forming part of a learning resource on web security and encryption.
:The project was conducted as part of a final-year university course and documented as a practical study on cookie encryption and it has been reviewed by three professors. However, I will be creating a sub page for the article to elaborately describe the experiment that we have conducted and the results we got.    [[User:Tomlovesfar|Tomlovesfar]] ([[User talk:Tomlovesfar|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Tomlovesfar|contribs]]) 15:57, 26 October 2025 (UTC)
::And why should w host research papers? Wikiversity is not an academic Journal nor repository. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 10:06, 22 November 2025 (UTC)
:::I do not wish to go through this same argument once again, I've already answered to this question several times in Dan's talk page, Colloquium. you can refer them. I am not hosting the research paper here, I have already hosted the pdf in the ResearchGate, I have published a text version in the wikiversity so that it may be useful for others. Unless you can show me how that article is totally useless, I would like to '''keep''' the article in the wikiversity.    [[User:Tomlovesfar|Tomlovesfar]] ([[User talk:Tomlovesfar|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Tomlovesfar|contribs]]) 10:13, 22 November 2025 (UTC)
::::And thats the point I am having. Wikiversity is not paper repository. The only way is to publish it via WikiJournal, but they want it for Wikipedia usually. Why wikiversity should be a duplication of ResearchGate, Academia or Zenodo?
::::What I can read on [[Wikiversity:What is Wikiversity?]] policy is, that Wikiversity research &quot;...includes interpreting primary sources, forming ideas, or taking observations.&quot; The article doent look to fall into this. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 10:43, 22 November 2025 (UTC)
:::::Well, then how come you missed the term &quot;Learning Projects&quot;? As Jtneill had pointed out, this is a legitimate learning project. And also, I do have the VRT permission to host this article on Wikiversity.  [[ticket:2025100410001149]] . besides ResearchGate is an self-archiving platform. the document version in it is not accessibly to screen readers (usually disable people use them), Translators, and also for the mobile readers. therefore I do have valid reasons to publish this article on wikiversity. 
:::::# It is a learning project, therefore according to WIkiversity Policy, It qualifies. 
:::::# I have an explicit VRT permission to host this article on Wikiversity
:::::# Versions that are published in RG, Zenodo are documents, and they are not accessible by screen readers or mobile users. Therefore it is imperative that an article version of this paper exist on here. 
:::::Therefore this article qualifies to stay here on Wikiversity.  [[User:Tomlovesfar|Tomlovesfar]] ([[User talk:Tomlovesfar|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Tomlovesfar|contribs]]) 11:22, 22 November 2025 (UTC)

'''Keep'''. This is a legitimate student learning project that may be of use to others. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 02:51, 22 November 2025 (UTC)

== [[Pragmatics/History]] ==
Another KYPark page and subpages with unclear organization scheme. Contains fairly many redlinked items. See also [[User:KYPark/Literature]], perhaps a similar concept. Unlikely to be really useful for others but KYPark. '''Move to user space'''.

As an alternative, moving to [[History of Pragmatics (KYPark)]] would make sense to me: the topic is identified using a natural-language phrase (instead of the relatively unnatural slash) and the responsible editor is indicated so that the reader knows whether to look or not. And for those who oppose the brackets (which I like): [[History of Pragmatics/KYPark]]. Or also: [[KYPark/History of Pragmatics]]. But then, searches in mainspace will see that content and the question is whether that is good. --[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] ([[User talk:Dan Polansky|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dan Polansky|contribs]]) 05:21, 15 October 2025 (UTC)

:What about to propose the user to write some guidelines, how other can participate instead of deleting it? [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 20:03, 16 October 2025 (UTC)
:: I plan to move the pages to userspace as I proposed. If someone wants to ask KYPark to address the problems, they should feel free. There will be plenty of time for KYPark to address the problems while the material is in user space. After the problems are addressed, the material can be moved back to mainspace. --[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] ([[User talk:Dan Polansky|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dan Polansky|contribs]]) 05:38, 15 November 2025 (UTC)
:So I would '''delete''' it. In the blocked user space its useless. The user cannot improve it and Wikiversity is not free hosting service for personal pages. My believe is, that there should be just a few working pages in the users spaces. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 08:30, 11 March 2026 (UTC)

'''Move'''. Insufficient statement of learning objective or connection to related learning resources with insufficient current activity to stay in main space. The page was originally [[History of pragmatics]] but was moved by Dave B. Therefore, I suggest moving to [[User:KYPark/History of pragmatics]]. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 02:57, 22 November 2025 (UTC)

Archive

== [[Gravitational torsion field]] ==
{{archive top|I have gone ahead and deleted this. I don’t see much point in moving to userspace as the users currently inactive. [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 12:30, 27 March 2026 (UTC)}}
The article [[Gravitational torsion field]] is proposed for deletion. Firstly, this article has no relation to the gravitational torsion field described in the article [[Physics/Essays/Fedosin/Gravitational torsion field]]. Secondly, the article's content is a mishmash of unrelated ideas and assumptions, many of which are not even related to gravitation.
[[User:Fedosin|Fedosin]] ([[User talk:Fedosin|обсуждение]] • [[Special:Contributions/Fedosin|вклад]]) 12:38, 9 November 2025 (UTC)
: '''Move to user space''', which is quasi-deletion. Searching the article for &quot;Gravitational torsion field&quot; finds nothing, not in the text, not in the references. The article is not labeled as original research, yet the headword &quot;Gravitational torsion field&quot; does not trace anywhere (it cannot trace anywhere from the body text since the body text does not have the headword). These are red flags. Further reading: [[W:User_talk:Swbraithwaite]], [[W:User talk:SWBPAUSEWATCH]], more red flags. --[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] ([[User talk:Dan Polansky|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dan Polansky|contribs]]) 12:48, 9 November 2025 (UTC)
:'''Delete'''. Low quality. Out of scope. Author no longer active on Wikiversity and has problematic WMF editing history. More detail: [https://chatgpt.com/share/6911338b-99ac-8008-833a-fb64e569a010 ChatGPT review]. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 00:40, 10 November 2025 (UTC)
:: I think we should move to user space unless we have a specific reason to outright delete, consistent with the position taken rather passionately by Guy vandegrift and supported by some other people, including probably by Dave Braunschweig who often moved pages to user space. Moreover, whether the page is out of scope, I am not sure; we do have author-specific articles (e.g.  [[Physics/Essays/Fedosin/Gravitational torsion field]]) and if the page was solid enough, it would not be out of scope, I think. --[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] ([[User talk:Dan Polansky|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dan Polansky|contribs]]) 08:33, 10 November 2025 (UTC)
:::Wikiversity is not free hosting service. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 08:47, 11 March 2026 (UTC)
:'''Delete'''. I dont understand its conntent, but the major obstacle is how to use this conentent. It looks like the copy of Wikipedia article so I would delete it. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 08:47, 11 March 2026 (UTC)

May be it is a simplest variant for the case.[[User:Fedosin|Fedosin]] ([[User talk:Fedosin|обсуждение]] • [[Special:Contributions/Fedosin|вклад]]) 14:10, 9 November 2025 (UTC)
{{archive bottom}}

== [[IMHA Research Archives]] ==
I propose to '''move to userspace''', including the subpages. I struggle to understand how Wikiversity readers are supposed to benefit from the material here and in the subpages. In the log, there is e.g. '10 February 2019 Marshallsumter discuss contribs deleted page IMHA Research Archives (content was: &quot;{&lt;nowiki/&gt;{Delete|Author request}} Thanks! -&quot;)', so the page was deleted before, but not the subpages.

We could also delete all the material if we have strong enough suspicion too much of it is copyright violation. In any case, moving to user space improves the matter a little by moving the content away from Google search. --[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] ([[User talk:Dan Polansky|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dan Polansky|contribs]]) 13:38, 9 November 2025 (UTC)

:Looking at some sub-pages, they can be deleted e.g., because they only consist of broken links or are largely empty. I deleted a couple but haven't been through all to check. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 00:27, 10 November 2025 (UTC)

As an example, let me give the wikitext content of [[IMHA Research Archives/3. Scientific litterature search, storage and use]]:
&lt;pre&gt;
==[[/Medicina Maritima - the Spanish scientific maritime health journal/]]==

==[[/PubMed/]]==

==[[/Google and Google Scholar/]]==

==[[/Zotero/]]==

==[https://www.dropbox.com/sh/d91z7bcyelfvk42/AAAkIvjtBnnFMbiU9ZLOdVL9a/Andrioti_database%20sources0310.pptx?dl=0 Maritime health web portal ressources ]==
&lt;/pre&gt;
The wikilinks are red; the external link to dropbox says &quot;You don't have access&quot;. This was made in 2016. --[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] ([[User talk:Dan Polansky|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dan Polansky|contribs]]) 09:04, 11 November 2025 (UTC)

:I suggest delete -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 03:27, 12 November 2025 (UTC)
:: I think we should avoid deletion as much as possible, instead moving to user space (bar copyvio, ethics violation, etc.). This is a good general principle. It greatly improves auditability and makes it so much easier for anyone to request undeletion since they know what content they are requesting for undeletion. --[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] ([[User talk:Dan Polansky|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dan Polansky|contribs]]) 09:52, 12 November 2025 (UTC)
:::Do not recreate Wikiversity from the educational and research project to the personal blog. That will lead to the cancelation of it by WMF. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 21:44, 20 November 2025 (UTC)
:::: The English Wikiversity has a long tradition of moving problematic content to user space, as per evidence collected at [[User:Dan_Polansky/About Wikiversity#Moving pages to userspace]]. If Wikimedia Foundation finds this problematic, they can start a discussion in Colloquium and state their concerns. They do not need to make explicit threats at first; they can start a discussion and explain why it is problematic. They can even do it from an anonymous IP and provide a well-articulated reasoning. And anyone else can start a discussion in Colloquium to change this tradition. I do not see why we should not want to change that tradition based on well-articulated, compelling reasoning. I see no reason why Juandev should be making threats instead of them, on a per RFD basis. --[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] ([[User talk:Dan Polansky|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dan Polansky|contribs]]) 05:58, 21 November 2025 (UTC)
:::: If Juandev is ''sincere'' about deleting very-low-value items ''from user space'', he should perhaps demonstrate that by asking his pages like [[:cs:Uživatel:Juandev/Problémy/Kov/Repase dvířek elektroskříně]] to be deleted; otherwise, I register a ''glaring inconsistence''. --[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] ([[User talk:Dan Polansky|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dan Polansky|contribs]]) 07:43, 21 November 2025 (UTC)
::What was the original delate page about @[[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]]? I guess that would be crucial for the decission. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 21:48, 20 November 2025 (UTC)
:::@[[User:Juandev|Juandev]] the couple of pages I checked and deleted were much like @[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] posted above i.e., headings with empty sections and/or broken links but no substantive content. But I think each sub-page needs checking. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 21:59, 20 November 2025 (UTC)
::::So I'm saying that the main page usually determines what the other pages are for. But if I don't know the page because it's been deleted, or why was deleted (deletion based on the founder's request is probably not the rule), it's hard to judge. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 22:16, 20 November 2025 (UTC)
:::::I've pasted the original content of the root page: [[IMHA Research Archives#Original page]] (i.e., prior to the content being removed and deletion requested) to help understand the context for the sub-pages. In 2018, Saltrabook blanked the page, indicating that the content had been moved elsewhere, and requested page deletion. Marshallsumter then deleted the main page but not the sub-pages. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 01:58, 21 November 2025 (UTC)
::::::I see, so if those subpages are usefull I would keept them, if not I would delete them. I dont see a point of providing free hosting to sombody, by moving many pages to their user space. The question is if we want to host (i.e. to have in the main ns) lists of links elsewhere. I have no opinion on that. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 10:11, 22 November 2025 (UTC)

: Let me clarify that while many of the subpages are like the example above, [[IMHA Research Archives/Scientific litterature search, storage and use/Zotero]] is different:
:: &quot;A continuous critical and evidence based learning is a core issue in clinical practice, research, teaching, publication and prevention activities. The Zotero Program is just one of many scientific literature management programs, that should be used for these purposes. Of course one can live without such a database but it helps a lot and can save a lot of time that could be used for more interesting issues. Not only that, but it helps to create better publications and knowledge. Without this program it can be very time consuming to publish a scientific article with the requested style for the references. Further in daily practice when you want to collect and cite a few references for a specific evidence in a clinical colloquium and discussion, this program is excellent. Therefore we strongly recommend that all maritime health persons learn how to use this excellent tool in their daily maritime health practice of all different types. There are good online courses for self-instruction on how to use Zotero. For example this one: Zotero fast online course But in order to increase IMHAR´s collective scientific strength in the use of EBM we would like to give training sessions in every possible opportunity, IMHA Symposia, seminars and other types of meetings. The database is useful for personal purposes but especially also for collaborative aims. At the IMHAR meeting in Paris Oct 7th 2016 we will give an introduction to the program by showing how it can be used in the daily practice and discuss strength and weaknesses compared to other similar databases.&quot;
: Even longer is e.g. [[IMHA Research Archives/Scientific litterature search, storage and use/Medicina Maritima - the Spanish scientific maritime health journal]].
: However, that does not mean these should be salvaged. --[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] ([[User talk:Dan Polansky|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dan Polansky|contribs]]) 07:53, 21 November 2025 (UTC)

== [[Fairy Rings]] ==
{{archive top|Deleted, per consensus}}
The page and subpages do not show anything useful; this has been so since 2007, I think (maybe I do not concentrate). Author: [[User:Juandev]]. '''Move to user space''' (or delete if preferred by the author and co-authors?). --[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] ([[User talk:Dan Polansky|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dan Polansky|contribs]]) 14:57, 18 November 2025 (UTC)

For instance, [[Fairy Rings/Database/Lublaňská 25]] was created in 2014 by [[User:Juandev (usurped)]]; there are lat-lon coordinates and an empty section for observations.

In [[Fairy Rings/Database]], I entered auto subpage generation. It found:
* [[Fairy Rings/Database/Lublaňská 25]]
* [[Fairy Rings/Database/Test]]
* [[Fairy Rings/Database/Test 2]]
* [[Fairy Rings/Database/Test 2/May 14, 2014]]
--[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] ([[User talk:Dan Polansky|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dan Polansky|contribs]]) 15:02, 18 November 2025 (UTC)

The project has an introduction to the issue and clearly stated instructions. I don't see the lack of participation in the project yet as a problem. Wikiversity is not Wikipedia, we are not aiming for pages full of text here, however, if someone is bothered by it, it can be deleted. For me, it would be enough to edit and update the project a little. --[[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 19:40, 20 November 2025 (UTC)

'''Keep'''. Clear objective that is in scope. '''Delete''' the test database pages. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 12:01, 22 November 2025 (UTC)
: [[WV:Deletion]] indicates that pages for which &quot;learning outcomes are scarce&quot; (as is the case here) are to be deleted. I don't see any policy or guideline indicating that something having a clear objective that is in scope of the English Wikiversity is alone grounds for keeping, regardless of how useless or underdeveloped the page is (perhaps I was not looking carefully enough). --[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] ([[User talk:Dan Polansky|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dan Polansky|contribs]]) 09:29, 12 December 2025 (UTC)
:Thats a good point. I would '''delete''' test pages which I have created and I would '''keep''' the rest. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 08:52, 11 March 2026 (UTC)
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== [[Palliative medicine]] ==

Underdeveloped and has not been improved on since 2007. Author inactive. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 21:42, 14 December 2025 (UTC)

:Delete, per nominator [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 11:16, 22 January 2026 (UTC)
:Yes, I would also expect there to be more and especially that someone would write how to use it. However, it still seems to me to be a useful thing in the sense of a syllabus, so that someone who is interested in the topic knows what information to obtain in order to get a complete picture of the topic. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 07:55, 16 March 2026 (UTC)

== [[Theory of Everything (From Scratch) Project]] ==
{{archive top|Deleted [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 00:19, 3 April 2026 (UTC)}}
Underdeveloped project since 2010. Original author has been inactive wiki-wide since then. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 01:45, 1 January 2026 (UTC)

:Yup, I guess we can delete it. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 07:57, 16 March 2026 (UTC)
:@[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] @[[User:Juandev|Juandev]] Does this include, [[Theory of Everything (From Scratch) Project/The Origin]]? [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 09:53, 28 March 2026 (UTC)
::Yes as its low-quality, is part of the project, has not been improved on since 2010. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 18:43, 31 March 2026 (UTC)
::Yes, the tradition is, that it includes all subpages if it is not stated otherwise. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 18:41, 1 April 2026 (UTC)
:{{done}} [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 00:18, 3 April 2026 (UTC)
{{archive bottom}}

== [[Seven Heavens]] ==
{{archive top|moved to userspace. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 13:23, 2 April 2026 (UTC)}}
Seems to be someone's personal beliefs rather than educational content that reflects Wikiversity's learning policies. It is not even labeled as such either. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 21:36, 19 January 2026 (UTC)

:This seems like '''speedy delete''' material to me. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 22:10, 19 January 2026 (UTC)
:Agree [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 23:26, 19 January 2026 (UTC)
::Moved to userspace. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 13:23, 2 April 2026 (UTC)
{{archive bottom}}

== [[Peace studies]] ==
{{archive top|'''Deleted''' per consensus.--[[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 17:23, 27 March 2026 (UTC)}}
Underdeveloped since 2006/2007. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 17:39, 21 January 2026 (UTC)
:'''Delete''' —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 19:22, 21 January 2026 (UTC)
:Delete [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 11:15, 22 January 2026 (UTC)

{{archive bottom}}

== [[Canadian Wilderness]] ==
This page doesn't seem to belong to wikiversity. [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 09:55, 6 February 2026 (UTC)

:In principle there could be some material useful here but in practice, I don't see what this page is adding as an educational resource. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 12:54, 6 February 2026 (UTC)
:I can see this being a useful resource to a bigger project. Maybe we could move it to the &quot;[[Wikiversity:Drafts|Draft]]&quot; namespace vs. deleting it? —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 13:28, 6 February 2026 (UTC)
::Does anyone plan to work on it? [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 01:59, 8 February 2026 (UTC)
:::Next week the page has it's 17th birthday. Ever now and than someone added to it. With a lot of work it could be a nice encyclopedic article but making it educational .... Merging it may take more work than rewriting it. Move to Draft might be the best option. [[User:Harold Foppele|Harold Foppele]] ([[User talk:Harold Foppele|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Harold Foppele|contribs]]) 08:58, 12 February 2026 (UTC)

== [[Systemic Lupus Erythematosus]] ==
{{archive top|'''Deleted''' - AI-slop with no educational objectives}}
Clearly seems like an ai-generated article and it seems to be out of Wikiversity’s scope. [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 10:08, 11 March 2026 (UTC)

:'''Delete''', copy of Wikipedia article. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 17:28, 27 March 2026 (UTC)
{{archive bottom}}

== [[LQR Control for an Inverted Pendulum]] ==
Underdeveloped resource, has not been edited for more than a decade. [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 08:03, 16 March 2026 (UTC)

:Looks like a test, '''delete'''. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 17:30, 27 March 2026 (UTC)

== False flag &quot;authority hack&quot; user page deletion ==
{{archive top|'''Not undeleted''', the requester [https://en.wikiversity.org/w/index.php?title=Wikiversity%3ARequests_for_Deletion&amp;diff=2803217&amp;oldid=2803214 dropped the request].--[[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 08:36, 10 May 2026 (UTC)}}
'''Undeletion requested'''

Hi, Juandev marked my user page as &quot;spam&quot; and &quot;authority hack&quot;, and deleted it. 

First, I asked him for help with &quot;time limit for new users&quot;, and he replied - I should admit I dont know, what is &quot;new user limit&quot;, but if filter blocks your page because of certain external link, you may force to save anyway and sometimes it works. It should not work, when the website is blacklisted. As of now, I am not seeing you to save page in main namespace, so try to save it without external links first. 

Then he wrote me another message: Well, I have analyzed your contribution to Wikiversity and I should point out here, that this project is not a place for advertising, so there is no way of promoting your books and authority this way. - probably referring to the intro of my About me page where I present me and my work. 

Before I could explain him the difference between the neutral information and advertising and promotion, he deleted my user page. 

Here is my answer I posted to the discussion today: 

: Hi, my About Me page is just an info page with the neutral as possible presentation of my work.
:
: There is a big difference between informing and advertising. Informing is neutrally stating that something exists and requiring no action, while advertising is a special communication form with intent to cause certain action from readers. For example, click here, click there, order this, buy that.
:
: There is no such intention, form, or terms on my info page. Just neutral information. I don't hide and I am not ashamed that I am write and author, and that is a part of the usual bio, including works. I checked your user page: &quot;I graduated from the Czech University of Life Sciences in Prague and studied information science at the Faculty of Arts of Charles University.&quot; I think that if you had written a book on Life Science, you would have mentioned that as well.
:
: Most of the Info page is about my research and AIPA Method which is a valid contribution to psychology, consciousness studies, identity theory, and personality development. Actually, my paper '''AIPA Method: A Cognitive-Phenomenological Model for Identity Reconstruction and Stabilization in Pure Awareness''' is now in the peer review procedure at Journal of Consciousness Studies.
:
: Here is a part from the Wikiversity AIPA Method page in creation (waiting for the end of the time limit for new users):

: == Introduction ==
: The AIPA Method addresses a gap in contemporary personal development and consciousness science: most evidence‑based approaches (CBT, MBSR, MBCT, standard meditation) operate at the level of mental content—reframing thoughts, observing them, or reducing their impact—rather than at the level of identity structure. In contrast, AIPA targets the structural relationship between the self and the mind, aiming at durable identity reconstruction rooted in Pure Awareness rather than symptom management.
:
: The central research question of the primary AIPA preprint is whether a structured, sequentially staged method can produce permanent identity reconstruction rooted in Pure Awareness, and how such a method compares to established approaches in scope, mechanism, and outcome.
:
: == Theoretical foundations ==
: The AIPA framework is grounded in the cognitive‑phenomenological tradition (e.g., McAdams, Varela, Metzinger, Erikson), contemporary consciousness science on minimal phenomenal experience, and qualitative methods advocacy in psychology. It builds directly on:
:* Empirical work on pure awareness and Minimal Phenomenal Experience (MPE), especially Gamma &amp; Metzinger’s large‑scale study of content‑reduced awareness states.
:* Metzinger’s proposal of minimal phenomenal experience as an entry point for a minimal unifying model of consciousness.
:* Narrative identity and partial‑self models within personality and identity theory.
: Within this backdrop, AIPA proposes Pure Awareness as a distinct, operationally specified state that can become a structural ground of identity rather than a transient meditative experience.
:
: == Experiential empiricism ==
: The empirical foundation of the AIPA Method is explicitly first‑person and experiential, combining:
:* A 22‑year longitudinal autoethnographic self‑study (2003–2025) documenting partial personality episodes, protocol use, and outcomes.
:* A 13‑year prospective verification period with zero self‑reported recurrence of targeted harmful behaviors after a dated stabilization point (1 January 2006).
:* A high‑ecological‑validity “stress test” during acute bereavement, used to examine whether non‑reactive awareness remains stable under maximal provocation.
:* Two independent practitioner cases (an Amazon‑verified report and a structured questionnaire case) providing preliminary convergent signals across cognitive, emotional, behavioral, and identity dimensions.
:
: All central constructs (Pure Awareness, partial personalities, the Switch, identity stabilization) are operationalized with explicit phenomenological and behavioral criteria intended to enable replication and future third‑person measurement.
:
: I believe this is a valid contribution to Wikiversity.
:
: Best regards, Senad [[User:Senad Dizdarević|Senad Dizdarević]]


I suggest you check the deleted user page, and see for yourself if it is &quot;spam&quot; and &quot;authority hack&quot;, or a legit author's page with one paragraph short presentation, while the rest of the page is about my research project. 

Thank you for undeleting my user page, so I can use it. 

Best regards, 

Senad Dizdarević [[User:Senad Dizdarević|Senad Dizdarević]] ([[User talk:Senad Dizdarević|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Senad Dizdarević|contribs]]) 07:26, 2 April 2026 (UTC)

:Hi Senad,
:Welcome to Wikiversity.
:It looks like you tried adding similar content to Wikipedia and ran into similar difficulties over there ([[w:User talk:Senad Dizdarević]])? Perhaps that is what has led to you Wikiversity?
:Basically, if you'd like to collaborate and help build open educational resources, feel free to contribute to Wikiversity. But if the primary motivation is to promote your autobiographical work you're probably going to run into challenges.
:Sincerely,
:James
:-- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 00:11, 3 April 2026 (UTC)
::James, Hi, and thank you for your answer. 
::Yes, in 2025, I created the autobiographic page on Wikipedia, which was removed because of the links to my books on Amazon. To admin, I explained that I did not know the rules, and agreed that page is removed. Now I know that somebody else must write a Wikipedia page for you. 
::On the deleted user page on Wikiversity, there were no links to Amazon or any other form of promotion, just neutral as possible basic presentation of my writing (one sentence) and current project (the rest of the page). 
::I created Wikiversity page to present my AIPA Method project, to invite researchers to read it, give their opinion, and conduct empirical researches in their institutions. Now, it is in a theoretical phase, and needs more empirical testing. 
::Best regards, 
::Senad [[User:Senad Dizdarević|Senad Dizdarević]] ([[User talk:Senad Dizdarević|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Senad Dizdarević|contribs]]) 07:03, 3 April 2026 (UTC)
:::It looks to me like the primary motivation for contributing to Wikiversity is to drive traffic / search engine ranking to your website?
:::* [[User:Senad Dizdarević]]
:::* [[AIPA Method]]
:::-- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 01:36, 4 April 2026 (UTC)
::::No, it is not. There is no link to my website, so &quot;driving traffic to my website&quot; is not possible. 
::::For your educational purposes: 
::::Copilot &quot;AI:  [[User:Senad Dizdarević|Senad Dizdarević]] ([[User talk:Senad Dizdarević|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Senad Dizdarević|contribs]]) 07:38, 4 April 2026 (UTC)
:::::So do you still insist of undeleting your former version of your userpage if you have created the new one? [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 08:15, 6 April 2026 (UTC)
::::::No, because in the moment of undeletition, somebody could delete it again, and so on. Thank you for not deleting my new user page, as it is made in your user page image.  [[User:Senad Dizdarević|Senad Dizdarević]] ([[User talk:Senad Dizdarević|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Senad Dizdarević|contribs]]) 08:59, 6 April 2026 (UTC)

{{archive bottom}}

== Undeletion request ==

It was deleted by an admin without discussion and with untrue rationale. If people take offense with the question that doesn't mean it's not a valid question and the page was good. Please undelete the Wikidebate page [https://web.archive.org/web/20250810030352/https://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Is_it_likely_that_Earth_has_been_visited_by_aliens_millions_of_years_ago%3F Is it likely that Earth has been visited by aliens millions of years ago?]

There are lots of sources on the subject, the wikidebate is sourced very well compared to other wikidebates and wikiversity pages, and the page is educational, useful and of good quality. [[User:Prototyperspective|Prototyperspective]] ([[User talk:Prototyperspective|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Prototyperspective|contribs]]) 23:57, 10 April 2026 (UTC)

:Page: [[Is it likely that Earth has been visited by aliens millions of years ago?]]
:Ping: [[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 00:21, 11 April 2026 (UTC)
:There is no need for a discussion for straight garbage-level, pseudoscientific content.
:For '''Is it likely that Earth has been visited by aliens millions of years ago?''', the flaws for this page wouldn't even take someone more than a few minutes to assess:
:* Essentially, the &quot;pro&quot; arguments unproven claims being derived from irrelevant, established facts (basically: &quot;it is likely aliens have came because Earth has existed for so long [sources proving Earth's longevity]&quot;). These are not serious, scientifically-backed arguments - these are non sequiturs. It's as if I said Wikipedia has existed longer than my existence on Earth ([https://d1wqtxts1xzle7.cloudfront.net/74351725/eyJoIjogImZiODhmYzNkODU1N2UxMWExYzUyODJiYzgzZTRmZDM4OTBjODY5YWMzMjA3NDNmOWEyZTA0ZTU3ZGYwZjAyYTkiLCAidSI6ICJodHRwczovL3B1cmUuaHZhLm5sL3dz-libre.pdf?1636354596=&amp;response-content-disposition=inline%3B+filename%3DCritical_Point_of_View_A_Wikipedia_Reade.pdf&amp;Expires=1775872055&amp;Signature=GqbUZboYRvUYWi~aW40LT5eZSHrLuDL3o0-DxAH8vSvcJcGAuyByZWLF2oHTY6GlB72TqvZxpE-v9d4gvsA6myriYqO~QQQZgWxjT2JXjUWC-yiPcTF4l~lroJSi4dY0v9eKiBcU03l-aeUdrX8~UPfi0TfW0IhsmzH-VBR6X6FrzRpIqc6uM6n9YXfr5FRB3aCqqokU690af3n0Hguaub1Zgmh9qjYYqzBS0VOOHjKTTEQnDuadX3jl5CQeXYTaeCC3H0hMeVwHlratbrnuFEKC1aN0-5znCUoSzMEg21ECzGPTrSDM1W05dcK-u0ZTCeUGKAuC-2yRFL3sY46MIw__&amp;Key-Pair-Id=APKAJLOHF5GGSLRBV4ZA#page=157 reputable source proving ''this'' fact]), therefore it's likely that my birth took place solely for the sake of me experiencing Wikipedia (0 backing). It makes no sense and no person with at least a high school-level of intelligence would take this seriously. 
:* What is worse is that the user is being misleading with their &quot;[the page is] sourced very well&quot; claim. The sources ''themselves'' don't even back up the claims. It's just used as proof for an established concept, where the user then uses this established concept to jump to an unsupported, laughable conclusion that is pulled out of thin air. It's utterly ridiculous to even consider such a page for mainspace since it clearly violates our [[Wikiversity:Verifiability]] policy. This is, once again, pseudoscientific content that has caused our website to reduce in quality over the last few years. 
:* Going source by source, we can see that:
:#[https://web.archive.org/web/20250918011642/https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/blogs/thebigd/compress-earths-history-into-24-hrs-humans-came-at-1158-pm-yet-killed-70-of-wildlife/ ‘Compress Earth’s history into 24 hrs. Humans came at 11:58 pm, yet killed 70% of wildlife’] is literally just a blog post which doesn't even mention aliens or extraterrestrial life. It just talks about Earth's history in accordance with the 24-hour metric of time, and the author tries to use this article as a 'piece in the puzzle' of aliens &quot;possibly&quot; visiting Earth... which, once again, is unsupported and is not backed up anywhere in the article.
:#[https://web.archive.org/web/20250808053249/https://news.cornell.edu/stories/2023/11/jurassic-worlds-might-be-easier-spot-modern-earth The Cornell article does not even remotely support the idea that &quot;aliens visited Earth&quot;]. It mentions a ''chance'' of &quot;life there [a habitable exoplanet] might not be limited to microbes, but could include creatures as large and varied as the megalosauruses or microraptors that once roamed Earth.&quot;, but again, no justification to take this article as proof that &quot;aliens may have visited us!&quot;. There's no mention of aliens visiting Earth anywhere in the article. Once again this is only proving the background premise, but not the unsupported, nonsensical &quot;alien likelihood&quot; argument that the author of this garbage page is trying to push so desperately.
:#The Parker Solar Probe WP article does not even mention aliens either. It follows the same issues as the previous argument.
:And the other page this user complained about [https://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/User_talk:Atcovi#Deletion_of_educational_page_because_of_personal_opinion on my talk page] holds almost similar, maybe even more fatal mistakes, than this one. It has nothing to do with &quot;taking offense&quot;, this is just low-quality, garbage content. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 00:56, 11 April 2026 (UTC)
::Why do you think pro claims are required to be proven? It's possible to object to them and these are arguments, not contextualized to be statements of proven facts. And it's not a strange or unreasonable argument to make that since Earth has existed for long, it's more likely that aliens have come here in the past than in recent times or the near future. Instead of insulting others' intelligence, maybe engage with the actual reasoning rather than censoring it away. And there are lots of sources, such as [https://interestingengineering.com/science/alien-civilizations-may-have-visited-earth-millions-of-years-ago-study-says Alien Civilizations May Have Visited Earth Millions of Years Ago, Study Says] etc etc. The sources are used for the arguments themselves individually. [[User:Prototyperspective|Prototyperspective]] ([[User talk:Prototyperspective|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Prototyperspective|contribs]]) 12:30, 11 April 2026 (UTC)
:::Because, once again, this is not a site that caters to rampant debating for the sake of &quot;we need to employ rationality and logic to solve the world's problems&quot;, we have policies that we need to fulfill. The claims made in the pro argument clearly do not meet [[Wikiversity:Verifiability]], since you cannot verify these arguments with the sources because they are not relevant. 
:::''&quot;And it's not a strange or unreasonable argument to make that since Earth has existed for long, it's more likely that aliens have come here in the past than in recent times or the near future.&quot;'' The point being is that these arguments are not supported by the sources. Even the article you mention poses the idea as a hypothetical model. This is just you twisting the article to fit your unsupported narrative. I'll bring direct quotes for you to show why the linked article does not help you:
:::* ''One problem the researchers do make sure to point out is that '''they are working with only one data point: our own behaviors and capabilities for space exploration'''. “We tried to come up with a model that would involve the fewest assumptions about sociology that we could,” Carroll-Nellenback told Business Insider. '''We have no real way of knowing the motivations of an alien civilization'''.'' --&gt; proves that this is just speculation and no evidence-based arguments have been provided for the idea that aliens likely visited Earth.
:::And I'm not sure if you read my entire response, but I ''did'' engage with your &quot;actual reasoning&quot; and exposed its weaknesses and lack of adherence to Wikiversity policies. If we allowed content that was just filled with non sequiturs we would have content that fails Wikiversity's educational objectives and reduces the overall quality of this website, hence why such a harsh stance needs to be taken. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 13:50, 11 April 2026 (UTC)
::::Thanks for proving that the Wikimedia ecosystem is unfit to deliberate on controversial topics. The question is entirely valid and the content is far better sourced than nearly all Wikidebates and has no genuine flaws. The only possible issue with it as far as I can see is that now that Wikidebates has been paused people can't add objections if they do have sth specific to say about the topic that's not already included on that page which already had plenty of Cons and objections.
::::The page was more educational than most of Wikiversity and it was well-sourced – wikidebates was for arguments so people were invited to make arguments based on sourced things or outlined logic and the page met [[WV:V]] and most pages on Wikiversity aren't sourced as good. Doesn't look like people can see beyond their biases and personal views here but that's more evident in the marginalization and deletion of wikidebates and the low activity in that project than these selective deletions. A constructive thing to do would be to add reasoned Cons and objections not yet on the page and people had plenty of time to do that. There are and will be other sites for free constructive rational adversarial deliberation (not a big loss in that sense). [[User:Prototyperspective|Prototyperspective]] ([[User talk:Prototyperspective|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Prototyperspective|contribs]]) 16:31, 22 April 2026 (UTC)
:::::Thank you for failing to address any of my arguments and going on an unrelated, nonsensical tangent that has nothing to do with the discussion. Once you start producing work that aligns with Wikiversity's content policies instead of typing up laughable, pseudoscientific garbage, then maybe your work can be accepted and not removed. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 16:59, 22 April 2026 (UTC)
::::::I suggest you stop ridiculing things and learn respectfully forming genuine points about the subject at hand. {{tq|the idea as a hypothetical model}} but please learn first about what arguments are and why they're not the same as a statement of objective proven fact. [[User:Prototyperspective|Prototyperspective]] ([[User talk:Prototyperspective|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Prototyperspective|contribs]]) 17:18, 22 April 2026 (UTC)</text>
      <sha1>rkzrfcfucw7okgzvrxoiye4lgv3jzxj</sha1>
    </revision>
    <revision>
      <id>2808153</id>
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      <timestamp>2026-05-10T08:41:03Z</timestamp>
      <contributor>
        <username>Juandev</username>
        <id>2651</id>
      </contributor>
      <minor />
      <comment>/* False flag &quot;authority hack&quot; user page deletion */ fix</comment>
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      <text bytes="63396" sha1="5vivgmzdntrp7ogz5x28gel9t9bzffh" xml:space="preserve">{{/header}}
[[Category:Wikiversity deletion]]

__TOC__

== [[Korean/Words]] ==
(I go to RfD instead of ''proposed deletion'' since many pages are affected.)

I proposed to quasi-delete, i.e. '''move to userspace''' of the main (or sole?) creator, {{User|KYPark}}.

The page is organized a little bit like a dictionary. It makes it redundant to Wiktionary except that Wikiversity allows original research and there does seem to be original research there. Thus, its being organized as a dictionary would alone not necessarily be a problem.

Where I see a problem is in the organization and execution/implementation. Consider [[Korean/Words/가다]], which seems rather typical of the subpages (some subpages are like categories and transclude the pages for individual words):
* On the putative definition line, there is this: &quot;한곳에서 다른 곳으로 장소를 이동하다&quot;, apparently(?) in Korean. That does not seem to fit well into the ''English'' Wikiversity.
* There seems to be some original research into etymological relations between Korean and European languages in the &quot;Comparatives&quot; section (from what I recall, the English Wiktionary rejected this kind of content from KYPark). Admittedly, it is marked using &quot;This is a primary, secondary and/or original Eurasiatic research project at Wikiversity&quot;, so it could be tolerable, but even so, one has to wonder whether Wikiversity wants this kind of fringe science/research or outright pseudo-science.
** Fringe science: fringe physics has been moved to user space before. This would be fringe etymology. But then, original research is allowed.

Deletion is not required; moving to user space suffices, I think. Alternatively, one could at least rename the pages to make it clear from the title that this is not Wikiversity voice but rather KYPark voice, e.g. &quot;Korean/Words (KYPark)/...&quot; or  &quot;Korean/Words/KYPark/...&quot;  (recall the &quot;Fedosin&quot; pages featuring the name &quot;Fedosin&quot;).

Methodology: I see almost no methodological notes spanning the words at [[Korean/Words]]. And yet, if this is original research inventing new etymological connections, surely there should be some general considerations/analysis on how to proceed and how that manner of procedure differs from mainstream etymology?

Prefix index (max 200 items?):
{{Small START}}
{{Special:Prefixindex/Korean/Words}}
{{Small END}}

--[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] ([[User talk:Dan Polansky|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dan Polansky|contribs]]) 09:33, 24 September 2025 (UTC)

:I would keep it. If there is a course of Korean, why not to have a resesearch on Korean vocabulary? [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 19:53, 16 October 2025 (UTC)
:: I propose to dismiss the above input: 1) it does not contain any argument, except for a question, and a question is not an argument (it can be so reinterpreted, but that includes additional burden on the interpreters, in interpreting it the wrong way); 2) it ignores all the issues I have raised, including that there is something like definition lines in Korean, in this ''English'' Wikiversity. To answer the question asked: there can be a research on Korean vocabulary in the mainspace, but not one showing the defects I identified above. --[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] ([[User talk:Dan Polansky|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dan Polansky|contribs]]) 05:35, 15 November 2025 (UTC)
:I've reviewed a sample of approximately 20 of the Korean/Words sub-pages and lean towards moving to user space because:
:* The pages appear to be an idiosynchratic collection of etymological pages about Korean language
:* There is minimal English instruction which is problematic for English Wikiversity
:* There is no explanation of research method
:* There is no educational rationale
:-- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 00:31, 22 November 2025 (UTC)
:Well, since the original creator has indef I change my mind and I would '''delete''' it. The case is nobody knows how to continue with the research and if we move it to the userspace, the user cannot improve it eihter. What the original user can do to request admin, to send them a contentent to their email for example if they really want to improve the resource elsewhere. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 08:38, 11 March 2026 (UTC)

== [[Enhancing Web Browser Security through Cookie Encryption]] ==
To avoid further conflict with the user who entered this text into Wikiversity, I am opening a RFD request.

I am not sure about how to proceed, although I am inclined to move it out of mainspace = quasi-delete. I am looking forward to get input from others, especially curators and custodians. Some considerations:

1) There is perhaps no more appearance/suspicion of copyright violation, now that the ResearchGate (RG) article (of which this is a copy, perhaps an incomplete copy?) carries a license.

2) The article is not a complete replica from RG: at a minimum, it lacks images. The inserter could have continued editing the page in his user space before he uploads images, that is, before he finalizes the page for consumption, but that did not happen. I did not check whether the text is an exact one-to-one match; the article does not indicate anything in that regard.

3) The principle implied seems to be this: users should feel free to duplicate non-peer-reviewed articles from RG in English Wikiversity, perhaps to increase the Google search and LLM yield. I find this problematic, in part for the duplication. I would say: choose a venue and publish it there. If RG is not good enough for you as a publishing venue, choose Wikiversity instead, but not both?

4) There are some features that appear unduly promotional. There is a link to a dot com home page of the inserter of the article. I dot not know how we handle or should handle this, whether prohibit such a link, etc. This is perhaps not so much a call to quasi-deletion but a call to make it less promotional.

5) I cannot determine the value of such an article. It seems to be a pseudo-article describing someone's browser extension. Can someone do a better analysis?

--[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] ([[User talk:Dan Polansky|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dan Polansky|contribs]]) 06:48, 8 October 2025 (UTC)

:2) Images for Wikicommons are being created, it will take a lot of time. and the text is not an exact one-to-one match
:3) I also mentioned that It was being created so that it is more accessible from mobile phone, which is not possible in RG or in Zenodo
:Let me clarify the purpose of uploading it to different platforms
:Zenodo - registration and to link DOI
:RG - Self Archiving 
:Wikiversity - Accessible by anyone from any device. LLMs may get trained on Wikiversity data or use these data for indexing 
:5) The paper is a result of a research project which involved a browser extension which was built to test the theory.  [[User:Tomlovesfar|Tomlovesfar]] ([[User talk:Tomlovesfar|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Tomlovesfar|contribs]]) 01:34, 9 October 2025 (UTC)
:: I find the practice here of publishing non-identical but similar text (&quot;the text is not an exact one-to-one match&quot;) with almost the same title to be problematic. I cannot imagine this is a recommended practice in academic publishing. At a minimum, somewhere near the top, the page should say something like the following: &quot;This text is based on article ___ published at ___ but is not identical. The author of the differences/changes is ___.&quot; Everything else leads to an undesirable confusion. In academic publishing, the title of an article serves as key part of identification of the artifact.
:: As I said before, I seen nothing particularly academic article-like about the page except for external/superficial signs. --[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] ([[User talk:Dan Polansky|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dan Polansky|contribs]]) 05:30, 9 October 2025 (UTC)
:::That Article has been published under CC BY SA 4.0
:::And I am one of the author of the article. That gives me right to modify text and publish it under a similar name. However, I will add the disclaimer text that you have suggested. I hope that helps.  [[Special:Contributions/&amp;#126;2025-27520-79|&amp;#126;2025-27520-79]] ([[User talk:&amp;#126;2025-27520-79|talk]]) 06:07, 9 October 2025 (UTC)
:::: It may give you that right from the ''copyright'' perspective, but perhaps not from ''academic publishing integrity'' perspective. Unfortunately, I do not have any guideline handy; I am merely following my common (or not so common) sense. --[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] ([[User talk:Dan Polansky|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dan Polansky|contribs]]) 06:32, 9 October 2025 (UTC)
:: I would like to ask: was this article guided by someone from an academic institution, such as a university? Is it reviewed at least in some weak sense? --[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] ([[User talk:Dan Polansky|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dan Polansky|contribs]]) 05:39, 9 October 2025 (UTC)
:::Yes, This article has been reviewed by two academic professors, their names are also listed as co authors.
:::First, a project guide would help us with selecting a topic and with the document 
:::Second, an Internal examiner would go through our experiment and approve it
:::Finally, External Examiner would examine the documentation and verify it. 
:::We were required by these professors to put their name under contributions [[Special:Contributions/&amp;#126;2025-27520-79|&amp;#126;2025-27520-79]] ([[User talk:&amp;#126;2025-27520-79|talk]]) 05:48, 9 October 2025 (UTC)
:: Let me explicate the promotional potential of such a page a bit: one can go to the page of the article in Wikiversity --&gt; https://tomjoejames.com/ --&gt; HitMyTarget (a commercial, profit-making entity?) Why would the link be to a commercial web site rather than an academic page, or perhaps a LinkedIn account, which I think the person has? There could also be no link at all; a search for the name would turn out something in Google as well. But providing a direct link would drive users/viewers toward that website much stronger since otherwise the viewer of the page would have to open a new Google search window or the like. --[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] ([[User talk:Dan Polansky|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dan Polansky|contribs]]) 05:45, 9 October 2025 (UTC)
:::It is evident that the website is not even close to being complete. 
:::I will be creating a separate page under the same domain name specifically for people to contact me.
:::The url would probably be defined as tomjoejames.com/contact-me/
:::I haven't decided yet. But that is my personal website.
:::If the community requires me to remove it, I will. But personally I think people who are from here most likely to click the link to know more about me or to contact me. Either way I think my personal website serves the purpose. 
:::As for the HitMyTarget, it can be traced from any of my links. From my research gate profile, linkedin page or even my own userpage.
:::On the article I did not add any promotional content about myself, I hyperlinked only my own name. I do not know how that is promotional. [[Special:Contributions/&amp;#126;2025-27520-79|&amp;#126;2025-27520-79]] ([[User talk:&amp;#126;2025-27520-79|talk]]) 06:04, 9 October 2025 (UTC)
:::: I am pausing any further responses from me to see whether anyone else has any input. --[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] ([[User talk:Dan Polansky|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dan Polansky|contribs]]) 06:30, 9 October 2025 (UTC)
:What does it mean &quot;There is perhaps no more appearance/suspicion of copyright violation&quot;? [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 19:57, 16 October 2025 (UTC)
:I have accepted VRT permission per [[ticket:2025100410001149]] FYI. [[User:Matrix|Matrix]] ([[User talk:Matrix|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Matrix|contribs]]) 11:00, 28 October 2025 (UTC)
::Thank you Matrix [[User:Tomlovesfar|Tomlovesfar]] ([[User talk:Tomlovesfar|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Tomlovesfar|contribs]]) 12:43, 28 October 2025 (UTC)
:I would '''delete''' it. 1) it states its a learning resource. It could not be a learning resource as not rewieved original research. 2) It is not an ongoing research, nor the research was performed on Wikiversity - wv is not a preprint or article database. Maybe it could be moved elsewhere withn Wikimedia domain, but I dont know where. So I would delete it. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 21:56, 20 November 2025 (UTC)
::I would '''keep it.''' Like Dan had pointed out,  we do have article-like pages in Wikiversity, and this is not just a random pseudo science article but an article that is a report of an final year project, it has been reviewed by 3 professors whose name has been mentioned at the very beginning.   [[User:Tomlovesfar|Tomlovesfar]] ([[User talk:Tomlovesfar|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Tomlovesfar|contribs]]) 14:50, 21 November 2025 (UTC)
:::I think it is not good to rate pages by appearance. It can be done on other Wikimedia projects, but it cannot be done on Wikiversity, because Wikiversity does not create a static format for presenting information, but is focused on the goal and process. Unfortunately, the goal and process do not have a uniform format. While a target article on Wikipedia or an entry on Wiktionary have some standard target format, Wikiversity does not. That is why I personally rate pages according to the goals and their assessment. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 10:05, 22 November 2025 (UTC)

Further reading for this nomination: [[S: Wikisource:Proposed_deletions/Archives/2025#Index:Cookie_Encryption.pdf]]; EncycloPetey handled the matter. Let me quote his wisdom on Zenodo (which I lack): &quot;This is tied to a PDF on Commons that was uploaded as &quot;own work&quot; with a CC license and a doi link to Zenodo, with no indication of where this paper was published or if it was published. Zenodo is not a publisher; it is a site for storing research and sharing papers. If Zenodo is the only place this was &quot;published&quot; then it was effectively self-published. --EncycloPetey (talk) 16:14, 15 September 2025 (UTC)&quot;

--[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] ([[User talk:Dan Polansky|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dan Polansky|contribs]]) 08:55, 9 October 2025 (UTC)

:Can you clarify what point are you trying to state? Didn't I already state that the article is published by me? 
:I first created the article in wikisource which I thought would be the perfect place, unfortunately they do not allow self published articles that are not notable. Then I discovered Wikiversity where they allow self published articles. That is why I created the article here. 
:Unlike in wikisource, I did follow guidelines.
:Ever since you deleted the first article, I spent time reading Wikiversity guidelines and I do think that I am following it perfectly.
:I would like to get your suggestions on how should I improve the page,  10 points would be sufficient. 
:Because your goals or intentions are confusing me very much. At first you told me that the article is exactly the same as the preprint in RG and therefore there is no use to it here. And then when I continued to optimize it for Wikiversity, you went ahead and said it is problematic according to recommended academic publishing. 
:Atleast just respond to the points that I have made whether you agree or disagree. So that I clarify and proceed to discuss points that are important and relevant 
:Have you published an research article? If yes, could you send it to me so that I can see the format you have done it [[Special:Contributions/&amp;#126;2025-27520-79|&amp;#126;2025-27520-79]] ([[User talk:&amp;#126;2025-27520-79|talk]]) 10:45, 9 October 2025 (UTC)
:: I am giving a chance/time to other curators/custodians to look at the matter and respond to my inputs. --[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] ([[User talk:Dan Polansky|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dan Polansky|contribs]]) 11:14, 9 October 2025 (UTC)
:: Incidentally, above I counted 4 questions (or more), 1 request (or more?) and 1 command (or more?). That is a behavior of a commanding entity. --[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] ([[User talk:Dan Polansky|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dan Polansky|contribs]]) 11:24, 9 October 2025 (UTC)

I would '''delete it''''. It's more like an academic communication than a learning resource or research.--[[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 07:32, 26 October 2025 (UTC)
:: In the above post, I do not see any valid rationale for deletion: we do have article-like pages, in Wikijournals and also e.g. in [[Physics/Essays/Fedosin/Stellar Stefan–Boltzmann constant]]. --[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] ([[User talk:Dan Polansky|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dan Polansky|contribs]]) 08:59, 3 November 2025 (UTC)
:::But I do, see above. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 21:56, 20 November 2025 (UTC)

:it is a '''student research paper''' forming part of a learning resource on web security and encryption.
:The project was conducted as part of a final-year university course and documented as a practical study on cookie encryption and it has been reviewed by three professors. However, I will be creating a sub page for the article to elaborately describe the experiment that we have conducted and the results we got.    [[User:Tomlovesfar|Tomlovesfar]] ([[User talk:Tomlovesfar|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Tomlovesfar|contribs]]) 15:57, 26 October 2025 (UTC)
::And why should w host research papers? Wikiversity is not an academic Journal nor repository. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 10:06, 22 November 2025 (UTC)
:::I do not wish to go through this same argument once again, I've already answered to this question several times in Dan's talk page, Colloquium. you can refer them. I am not hosting the research paper here, I have already hosted the pdf in the ResearchGate, I have published a text version in the wikiversity so that it may be useful for others. Unless you can show me how that article is totally useless, I would like to '''keep''' the article in the wikiversity.    [[User:Tomlovesfar|Tomlovesfar]] ([[User talk:Tomlovesfar|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Tomlovesfar|contribs]]) 10:13, 22 November 2025 (UTC)
::::And thats the point I am having. Wikiversity is not paper repository. The only way is to publish it via WikiJournal, but they want it for Wikipedia usually. Why wikiversity should be a duplication of ResearchGate, Academia or Zenodo?
::::What I can read on [[Wikiversity:What is Wikiversity?]] policy is, that Wikiversity research &quot;...includes interpreting primary sources, forming ideas, or taking observations.&quot; The article doent look to fall into this. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 10:43, 22 November 2025 (UTC)
:::::Well, then how come you missed the term &quot;Learning Projects&quot;? As Jtneill had pointed out, this is a legitimate learning project. And also, I do have the VRT permission to host this article on Wikiversity.  [[ticket:2025100410001149]] . besides ResearchGate is an self-archiving platform. the document version in it is not accessibly to screen readers (usually disable people use them), Translators, and also for the mobile readers. therefore I do have valid reasons to publish this article on wikiversity. 
:::::# It is a learning project, therefore according to WIkiversity Policy, It qualifies. 
:::::# I have an explicit VRT permission to host this article on Wikiversity
:::::# Versions that are published in RG, Zenodo are documents, and they are not accessible by screen readers or mobile users. Therefore it is imperative that an article version of this paper exist on here. 
:::::Therefore this article qualifies to stay here on Wikiversity.  [[User:Tomlovesfar|Tomlovesfar]] ([[User talk:Tomlovesfar|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Tomlovesfar|contribs]]) 11:22, 22 November 2025 (UTC)

'''Keep'''. This is a legitimate student learning project that may be of use to others. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 02:51, 22 November 2025 (UTC)

== [[Pragmatics/History]] ==
Another KYPark page and subpages with unclear organization scheme. Contains fairly many redlinked items. See also [[User:KYPark/Literature]], perhaps a similar concept. Unlikely to be really useful for others but KYPark. '''Move to user space'''.

As an alternative, moving to [[History of Pragmatics (KYPark)]] would make sense to me: the topic is identified using a natural-language phrase (instead of the relatively unnatural slash) and the responsible editor is indicated so that the reader knows whether to look or not. And for those who oppose the brackets (which I like): [[History of Pragmatics/KYPark]]. Or also: [[KYPark/History of Pragmatics]]. But then, searches in mainspace will see that content and the question is whether that is good. --[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] ([[User talk:Dan Polansky|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dan Polansky|contribs]]) 05:21, 15 October 2025 (UTC)

:What about to propose the user to write some guidelines, how other can participate instead of deleting it? [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 20:03, 16 October 2025 (UTC)
:: I plan to move the pages to userspace as I proposed. If someone wants to ask KYPark to address the problems, they should feel free. There will be plenty of time for KYPark to address the problems while the material is in user space. After the problems are addressed, the material can be moved back to mainspace. --[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] ([[User talk:Dan Polansky|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dan Polansky|contribs]]) 05:38, 15 November 2025 (UTC)
:So I would '''delete''' it. In the blocked user space its useless. The user cannot improve it and Wikiversity is not free hosting service for personal pages. My believe is, that there should be just a few working pages in the users spaces. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 08:30, 11 March 2026 (UTC)

'''Move'''. Insufficient statement of learning objective or connection to related learning resources with insufficient current activity to stay in main space. The page was originally [[History of pragmatics]] but was moved by Dave B. Therefore, I suggest moving to [[User:KYPark/History of pragmatics]]. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 02:57, 22 November 2025 (UTC)

Archive

== [[Gravitational torsion field]] ==
{{archive top|I have gone ahead and deleted this. I don’t see much point in moving to userspace as the users currently inactive. [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 12:30, 27 March 2026 (UTC)}}
The article [[Gravitational torsion field]] is proposed for deletion. Firstly, this article has no relation to the gravitational torsion field described in the article [[Physics/Essays/Fedosin/Gravitational torsion field]]. Secondly, the article's content is a mishmash of unrelated ideas and assumptions, many of which are not even related to gravitation.
[[User:Fedosin|Fedosin]] ([[User talk:Fedosin|обсуждение]] • [[Special:Contributions/Fedosin|вклад]]) 12:38, 9 November 2025 (UTC)
: '''Move to user space''', which is quasi-deletion. Searching the article for &quot;Gravitational torsion field&quot; finds nothing, not in the text, not in the references. The article is not labeled as original research, yet the headword &quot;Gravitational torsion field&quot; does not trace anywhere (it cannot trace anywhere from the body text since the body text does not have the headword). These are red flags. Further reading: [[W:User_talk:Swbraithwaite]], [[W:User talk:SWBPAUSEWATCH]], more red flags. --[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] ([[User talk:Dan Polansky|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dan Polansky|contribs]]) 12:48, 9 November 2025 (UTC)
:'''Delete'''. Low quality. Out of scope. Author no longer active on Wikiversity and has problematic WMF editing history. More detail: [https://chatgpt.com/share/6911338b-99ac-8008-833a-fb64e569a010 ChatGPT review]. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 00:40, 10 November 2025 (UTC)
:: I think we should move to user space unless we have a specific reason to outright delete, consistent with the position taken rather passionately by Guy vandegrift and supported by some other people, including probably by Dave Braunschweig who often moved pages to user space. Moreover, whether the page is out of scope, I am not sure; we do have author-specific articles (e.g.  [[Physics/Essays/Fedosin/Gravitational torsion field]]) and if the page was solid enough, it would not be out of scope, I think. --[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] ([[User talk:Dan Polansky|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dan Polansky|contribs]]) 08:33, 10 November 2025 (UTC)
:::Wikiversity is not free hosting service. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 08:47, 11 March 2026 (UTC)
:'''Delete'''. I dont understand its conntent, but the major obstacle is how to use this conentent. It looks like the copy of Wikipedia article so I would delete it. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 08:47, 11 March 2026 (UTC)

May be it is a simplest variant for the case.[[User:Fedosin|Fedosin]] ([[User talk:Fedosin|обсуждение]] • [[Special:Contributions/Fedosin|вклад]]) 14:10, 9 November 2025 (UTC)
{{archive bottom}}

== [[IMHA Research Archives]] ==
I propose to '''move to userspace''', including the subpages. I struggle to understand how Wikiversity readers are supposed to benefit from the material here and in the subpages. In the log, there is e.g. '10 February 2019 Marshallsumter discuss contribs deleted page IMHA Research Archives (content was: &quot;{&lt;nowiki/&gt;{Delete|Author request}} Thanks! -&quot;)', so the page was deleted before, but not the subpages.

We could also delete all the material if we have strong enough suspicion too much of it is copyright violation. In any case, moving to user space improves the matter a little by moving the content away from Google search. --[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] ([[User talk:Dan Polansky|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dan Polansky|contribs]]) 13:38, 9 November 2025 (UTC)

:Looking at some sub-pages, they can be deleted e.g., because they only consist of broken links or are largely empty. I deleted a couple but haven't been through all to check. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 00:27, 10 November 2025 (UTC)

As an example, let me give the wikitext content of [[IMHA Research Archives/3. Scientific litterature search, storage and use]]:
&lt;pre&gt;
==[[/Medicina Maritima - the Spanish scientific maritime health journal/]]==

==[[/PubMed/]]==

==[[/Google and Google Scholar/]]==

==[[/Zotero/]]==

==[https://www.dropbox.com/sh/d91z7bcyelfvk42/AAAkIvjtBnnFMbiU9ZLOdVL9a/Andrioti_database%20sources0310.pptx?dl=0 Maritime health web portal ressources ]==
&lt;/pre&gt;
The wikilinks are red; the external link to dropbox says &quot;You don't have access&quot;. This was made in 2016. --[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] ([[User talk:Dan Polansky|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dan Polansky|contribs]]) 09:04, 11 November 2025 (UTC)

:I suggest delete -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 03:27, 12 November 2025 (UTC)
:: I think we should avoid deletion as much as possible, instead moving to user space (bar copyvio, ethics violation, etc.). This is a good general principle. It greatly improves auditability and makes it so much easier for anyone to request undeletion since they know what content they are requesting for undeletion. --[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] ([[User talk:Dan Polansky|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dan Polansky|contribs]]) 09:52, 12 November 2025 (UTC)
:::Do not recreate Wikiversity from the educational and research project to the personal blog. That will lead to the cancelation of it by WMF. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 21:44, 20 November 2025 (UTC)
:::: The English Wikiversity has a long tradition of moving problematic content to user space, as per evidence collected at [[User:Dan_Polansky/About Wikiversity#Moving pages to userspace]]. If Wikimedia Foundation finds this problematic, they can start a discussion in Colloquium and state their concerns. They do not need to make explicit threats at first; they can start a discussion and explain why it is problematic. They can even do it from an anonymous IP and provide a well-articulated reasoning. And anyone else can start a discussion in Colloquium to change this tradition. I do not see why we should not want to change that tradition based on well-articulated, compelling reasoning. I see no reason why Juandev should be making threats instead of them, on a per RFD basis. --[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] ([[User talk:Dan Polansky|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dan Polansky|contribs]]) 05:58, 21 November 2025 (UTC)
:::: If Juandev is ''sincere'' about deleting very-low-value items ''from user space'', he should perhaps demonstrate that by asking his pages like [[:cs:Uživatel:Juandev/Problémy/Kov/Repase dvířek elektroskříně]] to be deleted; otherwise, I register a ''glaring inconsistence''. --[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] ([[User talk:Dan Polansky|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dan Polansky|contribs]]) 07:43, 21 November 2025 (UTC)
::What was the original delate page about @[[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]]? I guess that would be crucial for the decission. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 21:48, 20 November 2025 (UTC)
:::@[[User:Juandev|Juandev]] the couple of pages I checked and deleted were much like @[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] posted above i.e., headings with empty sections and/or broken links but no substantive content. But I think each sub-page needs checking. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 21:59, 20 November 2025 (UTC)
::::So I'm saying that the main page usually determines what the other pages are for. But if I don't know the page because it's been deleted, or why was deleted (deletion based on the founder's request is probably not the rule), it's hard to judge. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 22:16, 20 November 2025 (UTC)
:::::I've pasted the original content of the root page: [[IMHA Research Archives#Original page]] (i.e., prior to the content being removed and deletion requested) to help understand the context for the sub-pages. In 2018, Saltrabook blanked the page, indicating that the content had been moved elsewhere, and requested page deletion. Marshallsumter then deleted the main page but not the sub-pages. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 01:58, 21 November 2025 (UTC)
::::::I see, so if those subpages are usefull I would keept them, if not I would delete them. I dont see a point of providing free hosting to sombody, by moving many pages to their user space. The question is if we want to host (i.e. to have in the main ns) lists of links elsewhere. I have no opinion on that. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 10:11, 22 November 2025 (UTC)

: Let me clarify that while many of the subpages are like the example above, [[IMHA Research Archives/Scientific litterature search, storage and use/Zotero]] is different:
:: &quot;A continuous critical and evidence based learning is a core issue in clinical practice, research, teaching, publication and prevention activities. The Zotero Program is just one of many scientific literature management programs, that should be used for these purposes. Of course one can live without such a database but it helps a lot and can save a lot of time that could be used for more interesting issues. Not only that, but it helps to create better publications and knowledge. Without this program it can be very time consuming to publish a scientific article with the requested style for the references. Further in daily practice when you want to collect and cite a few references for a specific evidence in a clinical colloquium and discussion, this program is excellent. Therefore we strongly recommend that all maritime health persons learn how to use this excellent tool in their daily maritime health practice of all different types. There are good online courses for self-instruction on how to use Zotero. For example this one: Zotero fast online course But in order to increase IMHAR´s collective scientific strength in the use of EBM we would like to give training sessions in every possible opportunity, IMHA Symposia, seminars and other types of meetings. The database is useful for personal purposes but especially also for collaborative aims. At the IMHAR meeting in Paris Oct 7th 2016 we will give an introduction to the program by showing how it can be used in the daily practice and discuss strength and weaknesses compared to other similar databases.&quot;
: Even longer is e.g. [[IMHA Research Archives/Scientific litterature search, storage and use/Medicina Maritima - the Spanish scientific maritime health journal]].
: However, that does not mean these should be salvaged. --[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] ([[User talk:Dan Polansky|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dan Polansky|contribs]]) 07:53, 21 November 2025 (UTC)

== [[Fairy Rings]] ==
{{archive top|Deleted, per consensus}}
The page and subpages do not show anything useful; this has been so since 2007, I think (maybe I do not concentrate). Author: [[User:Juandev]]. '''Move to user space''' (or delete if preferred by the author and co-authors?). --[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] ([[User talk:Dan Polansky|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dan Polansky|contribs]]) 14:57, 18 November 2025 (UTC)

For instance, [[Fairy Rings/Database/Lublaňská 25]] was created in 2014 by [[User:Juandev (usurped)]]; there are lat-lon coordinates and an empty section for observations.

In [[Fairy Rings/Database]], I entered auto subpage generation. It found:
* [[Fairy Rings/Database/Lublaňská 25]]
* [[Fairy Rings/Database/Test]]
* [[Fairy Rings/Database/Test 2]]
* [[Fairy Rings/Database/Test 2/May 14, 2014]]
--[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] ([[User talk:Dan Polansky|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dan Polansky|contribs]]) 15:02, 18 November 2025 (UTC)

The project has an introduction to the issue and clearly stated instructions. I don't see the lack of participation in the project yet as a problem. Wikiversity is not Wikipedia, we are not aiming for pages full of text here, however, if someone is bothered by it, it can be deleted. For me, it would be enough to edit and update the project a little. --[[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 19:40, 20 November 2025 (UTC)

'''Keep'''. Clear objective that is in scope. '''Delete''' the test database pages. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 12:01, 22 November 2025 (UTC)
: [[WV:Deletion]] indicates that pages for which &quot;learning outcomes are scarce&quot; (as is the case here) are to be deleted. I don't see any policy or guideline indicating that something having a clear objective that is in scope of the English Wikiversity is alone grounds for keeping, regardless of how useless or underdeveloped the page is (perhaps I was not looking carefully enough). --[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] ([[User talk:Dan Polansky|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dan Polansky|contribs]]) 09:29, 12 December 2025 (UTC)
:Thats a good point. I would '''delete''' test pages which I have created and I would '''keep''' the rest. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 08:52, 11 March 2026 (UTC)
{{archive bottom}}

== [[Palliative medicine]] ==

Underdeveloped and has not been improved on since 2007. Author inactive. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 21:42, 14 December 2025 (UTC)

:Delete, per nominator [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 11:16, 22 January 2026 (UTC)
:Yes, I would also expect there to be more and especially that someone would write how to use it. However, it still seems to me to be a useful thing in the sense of a syllabus, so that someone who is interested in the topic knows what information to obtain in order to get a complete picture of the topic. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 07:55, 16 March 2026 (UTC)

== [[Theory of Everything (From Scratch) Project]] ==
{{archive top|Deleted [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 00:19, 3 April 2026 (UTC)}}
Underdeveloped project since 2010. Original author has been inactive wiki-wide since then. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 01:45, 1 January 2026 (UTC)

:Yup, I guess we can delete it. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 07:57, 16 March 2026 (UTC)
:@[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] @[[User:Juandev|Juandev]] Does this include, [[Theory of Everything (From Scratch) Project/The Origin]]? [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 09:53, 28 March 2026 (UTC)
::Yes as its low-quality, is part of the project, has not been improved on since 2010. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 18:43, 31 March 2026 (UTC)
::Yes, the tradition is, that it includes all subpages if it is not stated otherwise. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 18:41, 1 April 2026 (UTC)
:{{done}} [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 00:18, 3 April 2026 (UTC)
{{archive bottom}}

== [[Seven Heavens]] ==
{{archive top|moved to userspace. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 13:23, 2 April 2026 (UTC)}}
Seems to be someone's personal beliefs rather than educational content that reflects Wikiversity's learning policies. It is not even labeled as such either. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 21:36, 19 January 2026 (UTC)

:This seems like '''speedy delete''' material to me. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 22:10, 19 January 2026 (UTC)
:Agree [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 23:26, 19 January 2026 (UTC)
::Moved to userspace. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 13:23, 2 April 2026 (UTC)
{{archive bottom}}

== [[Peace studies]] ==
{{archive top|'''Deleted''' per consensus.--[[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 17:23, 27 March 2026 (UTC)}}
Underdeveloped since 2006/2007. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 17:39, 21 January 2026 (UTC)
:'''Delete''' —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 19:22, 21 January 2026 (UTC)
:Delete [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 11:15, 22 January 2026 (UTC)

{{archive bottom}}

== [[Canadian Wilderness]] ==
This page doesn't seem to belong to wikiversity. [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 09:55, 6 February 2026 (UTC)

:In principle there could be some material useful here but in practice, I don't see what this page is adding as an educational resource. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 12:54, 6 February 2026 (UTC)
:I can see this being a useful resource to a bigger project. Maybe we could move it to the &quot;[[Wikiversity:Drafts|Draft]]&quot; namespace vs. deleting it? —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 13:28, 6 February 2026 (UTC)
::Does anyone plan to work on it? [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 01:59, 8 February 2026 (UTC)
:::Next week the page has it's 17th birthday. Ever now and than someone added to it. With a lot of work it could be a nice encyclopedic article but making it educational .... Merging it may take more work than rewriting it. Move to Draft might be the best option. [[User:Harold Foppele|Harold Foppele]] ([[User talk:Harold Foppele|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Harold Foppele|contribs]]) 08:58, 12 February 2026 (UTC)

== [[Systemic Lupus Erythematosus]] ==
{{archive top|'''Deleted''' - AI-slop with no educational objectives}}
Clearly seems like an ai-generated article and it seems to be out of Wikiversity’s scope. [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 10:08, 11 March 2026 (UTC)

:'''Delete''', copy of Wikipedia article. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 17:28, 27 March 2026 (UTC)
{{archive bottom}}

== [[LQR Control for an Inverted Pendulum]] ==
Underdeveloped resource, has not been edited for more than a decade. [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 08:03, 16 March 2026 (UTC)

:Looks like a test, '''delete'''. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 17:30, 27 March 2026 (UTC)

== False flag &quot;authority hack&quot; user page deletion ==
{{archive top|'''Not undeleted''', the requester dropped the request. See Wikiversity:Requests for Deletion v. 2803217.--[[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 08:36, 10 May 2026 (UTC)}}
'''Undeletion requested'''

Hi, Juandev marked my user page as &quot;spam&quot; and &quot;authority hack&quot;, and deleted it. 

First, I asked him for help with &quot;time limit for new users&quot;, and he replied - I should admit I dont know, what is &quot;new user limit&quot;, but if filter blocks your page because of certain external link, you may force to save anyway and sometimes it works. It should not work, when the website is blacklisted. As of now, I am not seeing you to save page in main namespace, so try to save it without external links first. 

Then he wrote me another message: Well, I have analyzed your contribution to Wikiversity and I should point out here, that this project is not a place for advertising, so there is no way of promoting your books and authority this way. - probably referring to the intro of my About me page where I present me and my work. 

Before I could explain him the difference between the neutral information and advertising and promotion, he deleted my user page. 

Here is my answer I posted to the discussion today: 

: Hi, my About Me page is just an info page with the neutral as possible presentation of my work.
:
: There is a big difference between informing and advertising. Informing is neutrally stating that something exists and requiring no action, while advertising is a special communication form with intent to cause certain action from readers. For example, click here, click there, order this, buy that.
:
: There is no such intention, form, or terms on my info page. Just neutral information. I don't hide and I am not ashamed that I am write and author, and that is a part of the usual bio, including works. I checked your user page: &quot;I graduated from the Czech University of Life Sciences in Prague and studied information science at the Faculty of Arts of Charles University.&quot; I think that if you had written a book on Life Science, you would have mentioned that as well.
:
: Most of the Info page is about my research and AIPA Method which is a valid contribution to psychology, consciousness studies, identity theory, and personality development. Actually, my paper '''AIPA Method: A Cognitive-Phenomenological Model for Identity Reconstruction and Stabilization in Pure Awareness''' is now in the peer review procedure at Journal of Consciousness Studies.
:
: Here is a part from the Wikiversity AIPA Method page in creation (waiting for the end of the time limit for new users):

: == Introduction ==
: The AIPA Method addresses a gap in contemporary personal development and consciousness science: most evidence‑based approaches (CBT, MBSR, MBCT, standard meditation) operate at the level of mental content—reframing thoughts, observing them, or reducing their impact—rather than at the level of identity structure. In contrast, AIPA targets the structural relationship between the self and the mind, aiming at durable identity reconstruction rooted in Pure Awareness rather than symptom management.
:
: The central research question of the primary AIPA preprint is whether a structured, sequentially staged method can produce permanent identity reconstruction rooted in Pure Awareness, and how such a method compares to established approaches in scope, mechanism, and outcome.
:
: == Theoretical foundations ==
: The AIPA framework is grounded in the cognitive‑phenomenological tradition (e.g., McAdams, Varela, Metzinger, Erikson), contemporary consciousness science on minimal phenomenal experience, and qualitative methods advocacy in psychology. It builds directly on:
:* Empirical work on pure awareness and Minimal Phenomenal Experience (MPE), especially Gamma &amp; Metzinger’s large‑scale study of content‑reduced awareness states.
:* Metzinger’s proposal of minimal phenomenal experience as an entry point for a minimal unifying model of consciousness.
:* Narrative identity and partial‑self models within personality and identity theory.
: Within this backdrop, AIPA proposes Pure Awareness as a distinct, operationally specified state that can become a structural ground of identity rather than a transient meditative experience.
:
: == Experiential empiricism ==
: The empirical foundation of the AIPA Method is explicitly first‑person and experiential, combining:
:* A 22‑year longitudinal autoethnographic self‑study (2003–2025) documenting partial personality episodes, protocol use, and outcomes.
:* A 13‑year prospective verification period with zero self‑reported recurrence of targeted harmful behaviors after a dated stabilization point (1 January 2006).
:* A high‑ecological‑validity “stress test” during acute bereavement, used to examine whether non‑reactive awareness remains stable under maximal provocation.
:* Two independent practitioner cases (an Amazon‑verified report and a structured questionnaire case) providing preliminary convergent signals across cognitive, emotional, behavioral, and identity dimensions.
:
: All central constructs (Pure Awareness, partial personalities, the Switch, identity stabilization) are operationalized with explicit phenomenological and behavioral criteria intended to enable replication and future third‑person measurement.
:
: I believe this is a valid contribution to Wikiversity.
:
: Best regards, Senad [[User:Senad Dizdarević|Senad Dizdarević]]


I suggest you check the deleted user page, and see for yourself if it is &quot;spam&quot; and &quot;authority hack&quot;, or a legit author's page with one paragraph short presentation, while the rest of the page is about my research project. 

Thank you for undeleting my user page, so I can use it. 

Best regards, 

Senad Dizdarević [[User:Senad Dizdarević|Senad Dizdarević]] ([[User talk:Senad Dizdarević|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Senad Dizdarević|contribs]]) 07:26, 2 April 2026 (UTC)

:Hi Senad,
:Welcome to Wikiversity.
:It looks like you tried adding similar content to Wikipedia and ran into similar difficulties over there ([[w:User talk:Senad Dizdarević]])? Perhaps that is what has led to you Wikiversity?
:Basically, if you'd like to collaborate and help build open educational resources, feel free to contribute to Wikiversity. But if the primary motivation is to promote your autobiographical work you're probably going to run into challenges.
:Sincerely,
:James
:-- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 00:11, 3 April 2026 (UTC)
::James, Hi, and thank you for your answer. 
::Yes, in 2025, I created the autobiographic page on Wikipedia, which was removed because of the links to my books on Amazon. To admin, I explained that I did not know the rules, and agreed that page is removed. Now I know that somebody else must write a Wikipedia page for you. 
::On the deleted user page on Wikiversity, there were no links to Amazon or any other form of promotion, just neutral as possible basic presentation of my writing (one sentence) and current project (the rest of the page). 
::I created Wikiversity page to present my AIPA Method project, to invite researchers to read it, give their opinion, and conduct empirical researches in their institutions. Now, it is in a theoretical phase, and needs more empirical testing. 
::Best regards, 
::Senad [[User:Senad Dizdarević|Senad Dizdarević]] ([[User talk:Senad Dizdarević|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Senad Dizdarević|contribs]]) 07:03, 3 April 2026 (UTC)
:::It looks to me like the primary motivation for contributing to Wikiversity is to drive traffic / search engine ranking to your website?
:::* [[User:Senad Dizdarević]]
:::* [[AIPA Method]]
:::-- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 01:36, 4 April 2026 (UTC)
::::No, it is not. There is no link to my website, so &quot;driving traffic to my website&quot; is not possible. 
::::For your educational purposes: 
::::Copilot &quot;AI:  [[User:Senad Dizdarević|Senad Dizdarević]] ([[User talk:Senad Dizdarević|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Senad Dizdarević|contribs]]) 07:38, 4 April 2026 (UTC)
:::::So do you still insist of undeleting your former version of your userpage if you have created the new one? [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 08:15, 6 April 2026 (UTC)
::::::No, because in the moment of undeletition, somebody could delete it again, and so on. Thank you for not deleting my new user page, as it is made in your user page image.  [[User:Senad Dizdarević|Senad Dizdarević]] ([[User talk:Senad Dizdarević|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Senad Dizdarević|contribs]]) 08:59, 6 April 2026 (UTC)

{{archive bottom}}

== Undeletion request ==

It was deleted by an admin without discussion and with untrue rationale. If people take offense with the question that doesn't mean it's not a valid question and the page was good. Please undelete the Wikidebate page [https://web.archive.org/web/20250810030352/https://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Is_it_likely_that_Earth_has_been_visited_by_aliens_millions_of_years_ago%3F Is it likely that Earth has been visited by aliens millions of years ago?]

There are lots of sources on the subject, the wikidebate is sourced very well compared to other wikidebates and wikiversity pages, and the page is educational, useful and of good quality. [[User:Prototyperspective|Prototyperspective]] ([[User talk:Prototyperspective|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Prototyperspective|contribs]]) 23:57, 10 April 2026 (UTC)

:Page: [[Is it likely that Earth has been visited by aliens millions of years ago?]]
:Ping: [[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 00:21, 11 April 2026 (UTC)
:There is no need for a discussion for straight garbage-level, pseudoscientific content.
:For '''Is it likely that Earth has been visited by aliens millions of years ago?''', the flaws for this page wouldn't even take someone more than a few minutes to assess:
:* Essentially, the &quot;pro&quot; arguments unproven claims being derived from irrelevant, established facts (basically: &quot;it is likely aliens have came because Earth has existed for so long [sources proving Earth's longevity]&quot;). These are not serious, scientifically-backed arguments - these are non sequiturs. It's as if I said Wikipedia has existed longer than my existence on Earth ([https://d1wqtxts1xzle7.cloudfront.net/74351725/eyJoIjogImZiODhmYzNkODU1N2UxMWExYzUyODJiYzgzZTRmZDM4OTBjODY5YWMzMjA3NDNmOWEyZTA0ZTU3ZGYwZjAyYTkiLCAidSI6ICJodHRwczovL3B1cmUuaHZhLm5sL3dz-libre.pdf?1636354596=&amp;response-content-disposition=inline%3B+filename%3DCritical_Point_of_View_A_Wikipedia_Reade.pdf&amp;Expires=1775872055&amp;Signature=GqbUZboYRvUYWi~aW40LT5eZSHrLuDL3o0-DxAH8vSvcJcGAuyByZWLF2oHTY6GlB72TqvZxpE-v9d4gvsA6myriYqO~QQQZgWxjT2JXjUWC-yiPcTF4l~lroJSi4dY0v9eKiBcU03l-aeUdrX8~UPfi0TfW0IhsmzH-VBR6X6FrzRpIqc6uM6n9YXfr5FRB3aCqqokU690af3n0Hguaub1Zgmh9qjYYqzBS0VOOHjKTTEQnDuadX3jl5CQeXYTaeCC3H0hMeVwHlratbrnuFEKC1aN0-5znCUoSzMEg21ECzGPTrSDM1W05dcK-u0ZTCeUGKAuC-2yRFL3sY46MIw__&amp;Key-Pair-Id=APKAJLOHF5GGSLRBV4ZA#page=157 reputable source proving ''this'' fact]), therefore it's likely that my birth took place solely for the sake of me experiencing Wikipedia (0 backing). It makes no sense and no person with at least a high school-level of intelligence would take this seriously. 
:* What is worse is that the user is being misleading with their &quot;[the page is] sourced very well&quot; claim. The sources ''themselves'' don't even back up the claims. It's just used as proof for an established concept, where the user then uses this established concept to jump to an unsupported, laughable conclusion that is pulled out of thin air. It's utterly ridiculous to even consider such a page for mainspace since it clearly violates our [[Wikiversity:Verifiability]] policy. This is, once again, pseudoscientific content that has caused our website to reduce in quality over the last few years. 
:* Going source by source, we can see that:
:#[https://web.archive.org/web/20250918011642/https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/blogs/thebigd/compress-earths-history-into-24-hrs-humans-came-at-1158-pm-yet-killed-70-of-wildlife/ ‘Compress Earth’s history into 24 hrs. Humans came at 11:58 pm, yet killed 70% of wildlife’] is literally just a blog post which doesn't even mention aliens or extraterrestrial life. It just talks about Earth's history in accordance with the 24-hour metric of time, and the author tries to use this article as a 'piece in the puzzle' of aliens &quot;possibly&quot; visiting Earth... which, once again, is unsupported and is not backed up anywhere in the article.
:#[https://web.archive.org/web/20250808053249/https://news.cornell.edu/stories/2023/11/jurassic-worlds-might-be-easier-spot-modern-earth The Cornell article does not even remotely support the idea that &quot;aliens visited Earth&quot;]. It mentions a ''chance'' of &quot;life there [a habitable exoplanet] might not be limited to microbes, but could include creatures as large and varied as the megalosauruses or microraptors that once roamed Earth.&quot;, but again, no justification to take this article as proof that &quot;aliens may have visited us!&quot;. There's no mention of aliens visiting Earth anywhere in the article. Once again this is only proving the background premise, but not the unsupported, nonsensical &quot;alien likelihood&quot; argument that the author of this garbage page is trying to push so desperately.
:#The Parker Solar Probe WP article does not even mention aliens either. It follows the same issues as the previous argument.
:And the other page this user complained about [https://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/User_talk:Atcovi#Deletion_of_educational_page_because_of_personal_opinion on my talk page] holds almost similar, maybe even more fatal mistakes, than this one. It has nothing to do with &quot;taking offense&quot;, this is just low-quality, garbage content. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 00:56, 11 April 2026 (UTC)
::Why do you think pro claims are required to be proven? It's possible to object to them and these are arguments, not contextualized to be statements of proven facts. And it's not a strange or unreasonable argument to make that since Earth has existed for long, it's more likely that aliens have come here in the past than in recent times or the near future. Instead of insulting others' intelligence, maybe engage with the actual reasoning rather than censoring it away. And there are lots of sources, such as [https://interestingengineering.com/science/alien-civilizations-may-have-visited-earth-millions-of-years-ago-study-says Alien Civilizations May Have Visited Earth Millions of Years Ago, Study Says] etc etc. The sources are used for the arguments themselves individually. [[User:Prototyperspective|Prototyperspective]] ([[User talk:Prototyperspective|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Prototyperspective|contribs]]) 12:30, 11 April 2026 (UTC)
:::Because, once again, this is not a site that caters to rampant debating for the sake of &quot;we need to employ rationality and logic to solve the world's problems&quot;, we have policies that we need to fulfill. The claims made in the pro argument clearly do not meet [[Wikiversity:Verifiability]], since you cannot verify these arguments with the sources because they are not relevant. 
:::''&quot;And it's not a strange or unreasonable argument to make that since Earth has existed for long, it's more likely that aliens have come here in the past than in recent times or the near future.&quot;'' The point being is that these arguments are not supported by the sources. Even the article you mention poses the idea as a hypothetical model. This is just you twisting the article to fit your unsupported narrative. I'll bring direct quotes for you to show why the linked article does not help you:
:::* ''One problem the researchers do make sure to point out is that '''they are working with only one data point: our own behaviors and capabilities for space exploration'''. “We tried to come up with a model that would involve the fewest assumptions about sociology that we could,” Carroll-Nellenback told Business Insider. '''We have no real way of knowing the motivations of an alien civilization'''.'' --&gt; proves that this is just speculation and no evidence-based arguments have been provided for the idea that aliens likely visited Earth.
:::And I'm not sure if you read my entire response, but I ''did'' engage with your &quot;actual reasoning&quot; and exposed its weaknesses and lack of adherence to Wikiversity policies. If we allowed content that was just filled with non sequiturs we would have content that fails Wikiversity's educational objectives and reduces the overall quality of this website, hence why such a harsh stance needs to be taken. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 13:50, 11 April 2026 (UTC)
::::Thanks for proving that the Wikimedia ecosystem is unfit to deliberate on controversial topics. The question is entirely valid and the content is far better sourced than nearly all Wikidebates and has no genuine flaws. The only possible issue with it as far as I can see is that now that Wikidebates has been paused people can't add objections if they do have sth specific to say about the topic that's not already included on that page which already had plenty of Cons and objections.
::::The page was more educational than most of Wikiversity and it was well-sourced – wikidebates was for arguments so people were invited to make arguments based on sourced things or outlined logic and the page met [[WV:V]] and most pages on Wikiversity aren't sourced as good. Doesn't look like people can see beyond their biases and personal views here but that's more evident in the marginalization and deletion of wikidebates and the low activity in that project than these selective deletions. A constructive thing to do would be to add reasoned Cons and objections not yet on the page and people had plenty of time to do that. There are and will be other sites for free constructive rational adversarial deliberation (not a big loss in that sense). [[User:Prototyperspective|Prototyperspective]] ([[User talk:Prototyperspective|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Prototyperspective|contribs]]) 16:31, 22 April 2026 (UTC)
:::::Thank you for failing to address any of my arguments and going on an unrelated, nonsensical tangent that has nothing to do with the discussion. Once you start producing work that aligns with Wikiversity's content policies instead of typing up laughable, pseudoscientific garbage, then maybe your work can be accepted and not removed. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 16:59, 22 April 2026 (UTC)
::::::I suggest you stop ridiculing things and learn respectfully forming genuine points about the subject at hand. {{tq|the idea as a hypothetical model}} but please learn first about what arguments are and why they're not the same as a statement of objective proven fact. [[User:Prototyperspective|Prototyperspective]] ([[User talk:Prototyperspective|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Prototyperspective|contribs]]) 17:18, 22 April 2026 (UTC)</text>
      <sha1>5vivgmzdntrp7ogz5x28gel9t9bzffh</sha1>
    </revision>
    <revision>
      <id>2808157</id>
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      <timestamp>2026-05-10T09:09:51Z</timestamp>
      <contributor>
        <username>Juandev</username>
        <id>2651</id>
      </contributor>
      <comment>- 6 (archiving to [[Wikiversity:Requests for Deletion/Archives/23]])</comment>
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      <text bytes="53871" sha1="8abzaxkbrw9ljzskg8h5e4dfm53onut" xml:space="preserve">{{/header}}
[[Category:Wikiversity deletion]]

__TOC__

== [[Korean/Words]] ==
(I go to RfD instead of ''proposed deletion'' since many pages are affected.)

I proposed to quasi-delete, i.e. '''move to userspace''' of the main (or sole?) creator, {{User|KYPark}}.

The page is organized a little bit like a dictionary. It makes it redundant to Wiktionary except that Wikiversity allows original research and there does seem to be original research there. Thus, its being organized as a dictionary would alone not necessarily be a problem.

Where I see a problem is in the organization and execution/implementation. Consider [[Korean/Words/가다]], which seems rather typical of the subpages (some subpages are like categories and transclude the pages for individual words):
* On the putative definition line, there is this: &quot;한곳에서 다른 곳으로 장소를 이동하다&quot;, apparently(?) in Korean. That does not seem to fit well into the ''English'' Wikiversity.
* There seems to be some original research into etymological relations between Korean and European languages in the &quot;Comparatives&quot; section (from what I recall, the English Wiktionary rejected this kind of content from KYPark). Admittedly, it is marked using &quot;This is a primary, secondary and/or original Eurasiatic research project at Wikiversity&quot;, so it could be tolerable, but even so, one has to wonder whether Wikiversity wants this kind of fringe science/research or outright pseudo-science.
** Fringe science: fringe physics has been moved to user space before. This would be fringe etymology. But then, original research is allowed.

Deletion is not required; moving to user space suffices, I think. Alternatively, one could at least rename the pages to make it clear from the title that this is not Wikiversity voice but rather KYPark voice, e.g. &quot;Korean/Words (KYPark)/...&quot; or  &quot;Korean/Words/KYPark/...&quot;  (recall the &quot;Fedosin&quot; pages featuring the name &quot;Fedosin&quot;).

Methodology: I see almost no methodological notes spanning the words at [[Korean/Words]]. And yet, if this is original research inventing new etymological connections, surely there should be some general considerations/analysis on how to proceed and how that manner of procedure differs from mainstream etymology?

Prefix index (max 200 items?):
{{Small START}}
{{Special:Prefixindex/Korean/Words}}
{{Small END}}

--[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] ([[User talk:Dan Polansky|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dan Polansky|contribs]]) 09:33, 24 September 2025 (UTC)

:I would keep it. If there is a course of Korean, why not to have a resesearch on Korean vocabulary? [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 19:53, 16 October 2025 (UTC)
:: I propose to dismiss the above input: 1) it does not contain any argument, except for a question, and a question is not an argument (it can be so reinterpreted, but that includes additional burden on the interpreters, in interpreting it the wrong way); 2) it ignores all the issues I have raised, including that there is something like definition lines in Korean, in this ''English'' Wikiversity. To answer the question asked: there can be a research on Korean vocabulary in the mainspace, but not one showing the defects I identified above. --[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] ([[User talk:Dan Polansky|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dan Polansky|contribs]]) 05:35, 15 November 2025 (UTC)
:I've reviewed a sample of approximately 20 of the Korean/Words sub-pages and lean towards moving to user space because:
:* The pages appear to be an idiosynchratic collection of etymological pages about Korean language
:* There is minimal English instruction which is problematic for English Wikiversity
:* There is no explanation of research method
:* There is no educational rationale
:-- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 00:31, 22 November 2025 (UTC)
:Well, since the original creator has indef I change my mind and I would '''delete''' it. The case is nobody knows how to continue with the research and if we move it to the userspace, the user cannot improve it eihter. What the original user can do to request admin, to send them a contentent to their email for example if they really want to improve the resource elsewhere. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 08:38, 11 March 2026 (UTC)

== [[Enhancing Web Browser Security through Cookie Encryption]] ==
To avoid further conflict with the user who entered this text into Wikiversity, I am opening a RFD request.

I am not sure about how to proceed, although I am inclined to move it out of mainspace = quasi-delete. I am looking forward to get input from others, especially curators and custodians. Some considerations:

1) There is perhaps no more appearance/suspicion of copyright violation, now that the ResearchGate (RG) article (of which this is a copy, perhaps an incomplete copy?) carries a license.

2) The article is not a complete replica from RG: at a minimum, it lacks images. The inserter could have continued editing the page in his user space before he uploads images, that is, before he finalizes the page for consumption, but that did not happen. I did not check whether the text is an exact one-to-one match; the article does not indicate anything in that regard.

3) The principle implied seems to be this: users should feel free to duplicate non-peer-reviewed articles from RG in English Wikiversity, perhaps to increase the Google search and LLM yield. I find this problematic, in part for the duplication. I would say: choose a venue and publish it there. If RG is not good enough for you as a publishing venue, choose Wikiversity instead, but not both?

4) There are some features that appear unduly promotional. There is a link to a dot com home page of the inserter of the article. I dot not know how we handle or should handle this, whether prohibit such a link, etc. This is perhaps not so much a call to quasi-deletion but a call to make it less promotional.

5) I cannot determine the value of such an article. It seems to be a pseudo-article describing someone's browser extension. Can someone do a better analysis?

--[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] ([[User talk:Dan Polansky|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dan Polansky|contribs]]) 06:48, 8 October 2025 (UTC)

:2) Images for Wikicommons are being created, it will take a lot of time. and the text is not an exact one-to-one match
:3) I also mentioned that It was being created so that it is more accessible from mobile phone, which is not possible in RG or in Zenodo
:Let me clarify the purpose of uploading it to different platforms
:Zenodo - registration and to link DOI
:RG - Self Archiving 
:Wikiversity - Accessible by anyone from any device. LLMs may get trained on Wikiversity data or use these data for indexing 
:5) The paper is a result of a research project which involved a browser extension which was built to test the theory.  [[User:Tomlovesfar|Tomlovesfar]] ([[User talk:Tomlovesfar|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Tomlovesfar|contribs]]) 01:34, 9 October 2025 (UTC)
:: I find the practice here of publishing non-identical but similar text (&quot;the text is not an exact one-to-one match&quot;) with almost the same title to be problematic. I cannot imagine this is a recommended practice in academic publishing. At a minimum, somewhere near the top, the page should say something like the following: &quot;This text is based on article ___ published at ___ but is not identical. The author of the differences/changes is ___.&quot; Everything else leads to an undesirable confusion. In academic publishing, the title of an article serves as key part of identification of the artifact.
:: As I said before, I seen nothing particularly academic article-like about the page except for external/superficial signs. --[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] ([[User talk:Dan Polansky|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dan Polansky|contribs]]) 05:30, 9 October 2025 (UTC)
:::That Article has been published under CC BY SA 4.0
:::And I am one of the author of the article. That gives me right to modify text and publish it under a similar name. However, I will add the disclaimer text that you have suggested. I hope that helps.  [[Special:Contributions/&amp;#126;2025-27520-79|&amp;#126;2025-27520-79]] ([[User talk:&amp;#126;2025-27520-79|talk]]) 06:07, 9 October 2025 (UTC)
:::: It may give you that right from the ''copyright'' perspective, but perhaps not from ''academic publishing integrity'' perspective. Unfortunately, I do not have any guideline handy; I am merely following my common (or not so common) sense. --[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] ([[User talk:Dan Polansky|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dan Polansky|contribs]]) 06:32, 9 October 2025 (UTC)
:: I would like to ask: was this article guided by someone from an academic institution, such as a university? Is it reviewed at least in some weak sense? --[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] ([[User talk:Dan Polansky|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dan Polansky|contribs]]) 05:39, 9 October 2025 (UTC)
:::Yes, This article has been reviewed by two academic professors, their names are also listed as co authors.
:::First, a project guide would help us with selecting a topic and with the document 
:::Second, an Internal examiner would go through our experiment and approve it
:::Finally, External Examiner would examine the documentation and verify it. 
:::We were required by these professors to put their name under contributions [[Special:Contributions/&amp;#126;2025-27520-79|&amp;#126;2025-27520-79]] ([[User talk:&amp;#126;2025-27520-79|talk]]) 05:48, 9 October 2025 (UTC)
:: Let me explicate the promotional potential of such a page a bit: one can go to the page of the article in Wikiversity --&gt; https://tomjoejames.com/ --&gt; HitMyTarget (a commercial, profit-making entity?) Why would the link be to a commercial web site rather than an academic page, or perhaps a LinkedIn account, which I think the person has? There could also be no link at all; a search for the name would turn out something in Google as well. But providing a direct link would drive users/viewers toward that website much stronger since otherwise the viewer of the page would have to open a new Google search window or the like. --[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] ([[User talk:Dan Polansky|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dan Polansky|contribs]]) 05:45, 9 October 2025 (UTC)
:::It is evident that the website is not even close to being complete. 
:::I will be creating a separate page under the same domain name specifically for people to contact me.
:::The url would probably be defined as tomjoejames.com/contact-me/
:::I haven't decided yet. But that is my personal website.
:::If the community requires me to remove it, I will. But personally I think people who are from here most likely to click the link to know more about me or to contact me. Either way I think my personal website serves the purpose. 
:::As for the HitMyTarget, it can be traced from any of my links. From my research gate profile, linkedin page or even my own userpage.
:::On the article I did not add any promotional content about myself, I hyperlinked only my own name. I do not know how that is promotional. [[Special:Contributions/&amp;#126;2025-27520-79|&amp;#126;2025-27520-79]] ([[User talk:&amp;#126;2025-27520-79|talk]]) 06:04, 9 October 2025 (UTC)
:::: I am pausing any further responses from me to see whether anyone else has any input. --[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] ([[User talk:Dan Polansky|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dan Polansky|contribs]]) 06:30, 9 October 2025 (UTC)
:What does it mean &quot;There is perhaps no more appearance/suspicion of copyright violation&quot;? [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 19:57, 16 October 2025 (UTC)
:I have accepted VRT permission per [[ticket:2025100410001149]] FYI. [[User:Matrix|Matrix]] ([[User talk:Matrix|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Matrix|contribs]]) 11:00, 28 October 2025 (UTC)
::Thank you Matrix [[User:Tomlovesfar|Tomlovesfar]] ([[User talk:Tomlovesfar|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Tomlovesfar|contribs]]) 12:43, 28 October 2025 (UTC)
:I would '''delete''' it. 1) it states its a learning resource. It could not be a learning resource as not rewieved original research. 2) It is not an ongoing research, nor the research was performed on Wikiversity - wv is not a preprint or article database. Maybe it could be moved elsewhere withn Wikimedia domain, but I dont know where. So I would delete it. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 21:56, 20 November 2025 (UTC)
::I would '''keep it.''' Like Dan had pointed out,  we do have article-like pages in Wikiversity, and this is not just a random pseudo science article but an article that is a report of an final year project, it has been reviewed by 3 professors whose name has been mentioned at the very beginning.   [[User:Tomlovesfar|Tomlovesfar]] ([[User talk:Tomlovesfar|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Tomlovesfar|contribs]]) 14:50, 21 November 2025 (UTC)
:::I think it is not good to rate pages by appearance. It can be done on other Wikimedia projects, but it cannot be done on Wikiversity, because Wikiversity does not create a static format for presenting information, but is focused on the goal and process. Unfortunately, the goal and process do not have a uniform format. While a target article on Wikipedia or an entry on Wiktionary have some standard target format, Wikiversity does not. That is why I personally rate pages according to the goals and their assessment. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 10:05, 22 November 2025 (UTC)

Further reading for this nomination: [[S: Wikisource:Proposed_deletions/Archives/2025#Index:Cookie_Encryption.pdf]]; EncycloPetey handled the matter. Let me quote his wisdom on Zenodo (which I lack): &quot;This is tied to a PDF on Commons that was uploaded as &quot;own work&quot; with a CC license and a doi link to Zenodo, with no indication of where this paper was published or if it was published. Zenodo is not a publisher; it is a site for storing research and sharing papers. If Zenodo is the only place this was &quot;published&quot; then it was effectively self-published. --EncycloPetey (talk) 16:14, 15 September 2025 (UTC)&quot;

--[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] ([[User talk:Dan Polansky|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dan Polansky|contribs]]) 08:55, 9 October 2025 (UTC)

:Can you clarify what point are you trying to state? Didn't I already state that the article is published by me? 
:I first created the article in wikisource which I thought would be the perfect place, unfortunately they do not allow self published articles that are not notable. Then I discovered Wikiversity where they allow self published articles. That is why I created the article here. 
:Unlike in wikisource, I did follow guidelines.
:Ever since you deleted the first article, I spent time reading Wikiversity guidelines and I do think that I am following it perfectly.
:I would like to get your suggestions on how should I improve the page,  10 points would be sufficient. 
:Because your goals or intentions are confusing me very much. At first you told me that the article is exactly the same as the preprint in RG and therefore there is no use to it here. And then when I continued to optimize it for Wikiversity, you went ahead and said it is problematic according to recommended academic publishing. 
:Atleast just respond to the points that I have made whether you agree or disagree. So that I clarify and proceed to discuss points that are important and relevant 
:Have you published an research article? If yes, could you send it to me so that I can see the format you have done it [[Special:Contributions/&amp;#126;2025-27520-79|&amp;#126;2025-27520-79]] ([[User talk:&amp;#126;2025-27520-79|talk]]) 10:45, 9 October 2025 (UTC)
:: I am giving a chance/time to other curators/custodians to look at the matter and respond to my inputs. --[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] ([[User talk:Dan Polansky|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dan Polansky|contribs]]) 11:14, 9 October 2025 (UTC)
:: Incidentally, above I counted 4 questions (or more), 1 request (or more?) and 1 command (or more?). That is a behavior of a commanding entity. --[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] ([[User talk:Dan Polansky|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dan Polansky|contribs]]) 11:24, 9 October 2025 (UTC)

I would '''delete it''''. It's more like an academic communication than a learning resource or research.--[[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 07:32, 26 October 2025 (UTC)
:: In the above post, I do not see any valid rationale for deletion: we do have article-like pages, in Wikijournals and also e.g. in [[Physics/Essays/Fedosin/Stellar Stefan–Boltzmann constant]]. --[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] ([[User talk:Dan Polansky|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dan Polansky|contribs]]) 08:59, 3 November 2025 (UTC)
:::But I do, see above. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 21:56, 20 November 2025 (UTC)

:it is a '''student research paper''' forming part of a learning resource on web security and encryption.
:The project was conducted as part of a final-year university course and documented as a practical study on cookie encryption and it has been reviewed by three professors. However, I will be creating a sub page for the article to elaborately describe the experiment that we have conducted and the results we got.    [[User:Tomlovesfar|Tomlovesfar]] ([[User talk:Tomlovesfar|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Tomlovesfar|contribs]]) 15:57, 26 October 2025 (UTC)
::And why should w host research papers? Wikiversity is not an academic Journal nor repository. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 10:06, 22 November 2025 (UTC)
:::I do not wish to go through this same argument once again, I've already answered to this question several times in Dan's talk page, Colloquium. you can refer them. I am not hosting the research paper here, I have already hosted the pdf in the ResearchGate, I have published a text version in the wikiversity so that it may be useful for others. Unless you can show me how that article is totally useless, I would like to '''keep''' the article in the wikiversity.    [[User:Tomlovesfar|Tomlovesfar]] ([[User talk:Tomlovesfar|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Tomlovesfar|contribs]]) 10:13, 22 November 2025 (UTC)
::::And thats the point I am having. Wikiversity is not paper repository. The only way is to publish it via WikiJournal, but they want it for Wikipedia usually. Why wikiversity should be a duplication of ResearchGate, Academia or Zenodo?
::::What I can read on [[Wikiversity:What is Wikiversity?]] policy is, that Wikiversity research &quot;...includes interpreting primary sources, forming ideas, or taking observations.&quot; The article doent look to fall into this. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 10:43, 22 November 2025 (UTC)
:::::Well, then how come you missed the term &quot;Learning Projects&quot;? As Jtneill had pointed out, this is a legitimate learning project. And also, I do have the VRT permission to host this article on Wikiversity.  [[ticket:2025100410001149]] . besides ResearchGate is an self-archiving platform. the document version in it is not accessibly to screen readers (usually disable people use them), Translators, and also for the mobile readers. therefore I do have valid reasons to publish this article on wikiversity. 
:::::# It is a learning project, therefore according to WIkiversity Policy, It qualifies. 
:::::# I have an explicit VRT permission to host this article on Wikiversity
:::::# Versions that are published in RG, Zenodo are documents, and they are not accessible by screen readers or mobile users. Therefore it is imperative that an article version of this paper exist on here. 
:::::Therefore this article qualifies to stay here on Wikiversity.  [[User:Tomlovesfar|Tomlovesfar]] ([[User talk:Tomlovesfar|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Tomlovesfar|contribs]]) 11:22, 22 November 2025 (UTC)

'''Keep'''. This is a legitimate student learning project that may be of use to others. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 02:51, 22 November 2025 (UTC)

== [[Pragmatics/History]] ==
Another KYPark page and subpages with unclear organization scheme. Contains fairly many redlinked items. See also [[User:KYPark/Literature]], perhaps a similar concept. Unlikely to be really useful for others but KYPark. '''Move to user space'''.

As an alternative, moving to [[History of Pragmatics (KYPark)]] would make sense to me: the topic is identified using a natural-language phrase (instead of the relatively unnatural slash) and the responsible editor is indicated so that the reader knows whether to look or not. And for those who oppose the brackets (which I like): [[History of Pragmatics/KYPark]]. Or also: [[KYPark/History of Pragmatics]]. But then, searches in mainspace will see that content and the question is whether that is good. --[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] ([[User talk:Dan Polansky|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dan Polansky|contribs]]) 05:21, 15 October 2025 (UTC)

:What about to propose the user to write some guidelines, how other can participate instead of deleting it? [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 20:03, 16 October 2025 (UTC)
:: I plan to move the pages to userspace as I proposed. If someone wants to ask KYPark to address the problems, they should feel free. There will be plenty of time for KYPark to address the problems while the material is in user space. After the problems are addressed, the material can be moved back to mainspace. --[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] ([[User talk:Dan Polansky|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dan Polansky|contribs]]) 05:38, 15 November 2025 (UTC)
:So I would '''delete''' it. In the blocked user space its useless. The user cannot improve it and Wikiversity is not free hosting service for personal pages. My believe is, that there should be just a few working pages in the users spaces. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 08:30, 11 March 2026 (UTC)

'''Move'''. Insufficient statement of learning objective or connection to related learning resources with insufficient current activity to stay in main space. The page was originally [[History of pragmatics]] but was moved by Dave B. Therefore, I suggest moving to [[User:KYPark/History of pragmatics]]. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 02:57, 22 November 2025 (UTC)

== [[IMHA Research Archives]] ==
I propose to '''move to userspace''', including the subpages. I struggle to understand how Wikiversity readers are supposed to benefit from the material here and in the subpages. In the log, there is e.g. '10 February 2019 Marshallsumter discuss contribs deleted page IMHA Research Archives (content was: &quot;{&lt;nowiki/&gt;{Delete|Author request}} Thanks! -&quot;)', so the page was deleted before, but not the subpages.

We could also delete all the material if we have strong enough suspicion too much of it is copyright violation. In any case, moving to user space improves the matter a little by moving the content away from Google search. --[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] ([[User talk:Dan Polansky|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dan Polansky|contribs]]) 13:38, 9 November 2025 (UTC)

:Looking at some sub-pages, they can be deleted e.g., because they only consist of broken links or are largely empty. I deleted a couple but haven't been through all to check. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 00:27, 10 November 2025 (UTC)

As an example, let me give the wikitext content of [[IMHA Research Archives/3. Scientific litterature search, storage and use]]:
&lt;pre&gt;
==[[/Medicina Maritima - the Spanish scientific maritime health journal/]]==

==[[/PubMed/]]==

==[[/Google and Google Scholar/]]==

==[[/Zotero/]]==

==[https://www.dropbox.com/sh/d91z7bcyelfvk42/AAAkIvjtBnnFMbiU9ZLOdVL9a/Andrioti_database%20sources0310.pptx?dl=0 Maritime health web portal ressources ]==
&lt;/pre&gt;
The wikilinks are red; the external link to dropbox says &quot;You don't have access&quot;. This was made in 2016. --[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] ([[User talk:Dan Polansky|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dan Polansky|contribs]]) 09:04, 11 November 2025 (UTC)

:I suggest delete -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 03:27, 12 November 2025 (UTC)
:: I think we should avoid deletion as much as possible, instead moving to user space (bar copyvio, ethics violation, etc.). This is a good general principle. It greatly improves auditability and makes it so much easier for anyone to request undeletion since they know what content they are requesting for undeletion. --[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] ([[User talk:Dan Polansky|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dan Polansky|contribs]]) 09:52, 12 November 2025 (UTC)
:::Do not recreate Wikiversity from the educational and research project to the personal blog. That will lead to the cancelation of it by WMF. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 21:44, 20 November 2025 (UTC)
:::: The English Wikiversity has a long tradition of moving problematic content to user space, as per evidence collected at [[User:Dan_Polansky/About Wikiversity#Moving pages to userspace]]. If Wikimedia Foundation finds this problematic, they can start a discussion in Colloquium and state their concerns. They do not need to make explicit threats at first; they can start a discussion and explain why it is problematic. They can even do it from an anonymous IP and provide a well-articulated reasoning. And anyone else can start a discussion in Colloquium to change this tradition. I do not see why we should not want to change that tradition based on well-articulated, compelling reasoning. I see no reason why Juandev should be making threats instead of them, on a per RFD basis. --[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] ([[User talk:Dan Polansky|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dan Polansky|contribs]]) 05:58, 21 November 2025 (UTC)
:::: If Juandev is ''sincere'' about deleting very-low-value items ''from user space'', he should perhaps demonstrate that by asking his pages like [[:cs:Uživatel:Juandev/Problémy/Kov/Repase dvířek elektroskříně]] to be deleted; otherwise, I register a ''glaring inconsistence''. --[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] ([[User talk:Dan Polansky|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dan Polansky|contribs]]) 07:43, 21 November 2025 (UTC)
::What was the original delate page about @[[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]]? I guess that would be crucial for the decission. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 21:48, 20 November 2025 (UTC)
:::@[[User:Juandev|Juandev]] the couple of pages I checked and deleted were much like @[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] posted above i.e., headings with empty sections and/or broken links but no substantive content. But I think each sub-page needs checking. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 21:59, 20 November 2025 (UTC)
::::So I'm saying that the main page usually determines what the other pages are for. But if I don't know the page because it's been deleted, or why was deleted (deletion based on the founder's request is probably not the rule), it's hard to judge. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 22:16, 20 November 2025 (UTC)
:::::I've pasted the original content of the root page: [[IMHA Research Archives#Original page]] (i.e., prior to the content being removed and deletion requested) to help understand the context for the sub-pages. In 2018, Saltrabook blanked the page, indicating that the content had been moved elsewhere, and requested page deletion. Marshallsumter then deleted the main page but not the sub-pages. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 01:58, 21 November 2025 (UTC)
::::::I see, so if those subpages are usefull I would keept them, if not I would delete them. I dont see a point of providing free hosting to sombody, by moving many pages to their user space. The question is if we want to host (i.e. to have in the main ns) lists of links elsewhere. I have no opinion on that. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 10:11, 22 November 2025 (UTC)

: Let me clarify that while many of the subpages are like the example above, [[IMHA Research Archives/Scientific litterature search, storage and use/Zotero]] is different:
:: &quot;A continuous critical and evidence based learning is a core issue in clinical practice, research, teaching, publication and prevention activities. The Zotero Program is just one of many scientific literature management programs, that should be used for these purposes. Of course one can live without such a database but it helps a lot and can save a lot of time that could be used for more interesting issues. Not only that, but it helps to create better publications and knowledge. Without this program it can be very time consuming to publish a scientific article with the requested style for the references. Further in daily practice when you want to collect and cite a few references for a specific evidence in a clinical colloquium and discussion, this program is excellent. Therefore we strongly recommend that all maritime health persons learn how to use this excellent tool in their daily maritime health practice of all different types. There are good online courses for self-instruction on how to use Zotero. For example this one: Zotero fast online course But in order to increase IMHAR´s collective scientific strength in the use of EBM we would like to give training sessions in every possible opportunity, IMHA Symposia, seminars and other types of meetings. The database is useful for personal purposes but especially also for collaborative aims. At the IMHAR meeting in Paris Oct 7th 2016 we will give an introduction to the program by showing how it can be used in the daily practice and discuss strength and weaknesses compared to other similar databases.&quot;
: Even longer is e.g. [[IMHA Research Archives/Scientific litterature search, storage and use/Medicina Maritima - the Spanish scientific maritime health journal]].
: However, that does not mean these should be salvaged. --[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] ([[User talk:Dan Polansky|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dan Polansky|contribs]]) 07:53, 21 November 2025 (UTC)

== [[Palliative medicine]] ==

Underdeveloped and has not been improved on since 2007. Author inactive. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 21:42, 14 December 2025 (UTC)

:Delete, per nominator [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 11:16, 22 January 2026 (UTC)
:Yes, I would also expect there to be more and especially that someone would write how to use it. However, it still seems to me to be a useful thing in the sense of a syllabus, so that someone who is interested in the topic knows what information to obtain in order to get a complete picture of the topic. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 07:55, 16 March 2026 (UTC)

== [[Canadian Wilderness]] ==
This page doesn't seem to belong to wikiversity. [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 09:55, 6 February 2026 (UTC)

:In principle there could be some material useful here but in practice, I don't see what this page is adding as an educational resource. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 12:54, 6 February 2026 (UTC)
:I can see this being a useful resource to a bigger project. Maybe we could move it to the &quot;[[Wikiversity:Drafts|Draft]]&quot; namespace vs. deleting it? —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 13:28, 6 February 2026 (UTC)
::Does anyone plan to work on it? [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 01:59, 8 February 2026 (UTC)
:::Next week the page has it's 17th birthday. Ever now and than someone added to it. With a lot of work it could be a nice encyclopedic article but making it educational .... Merging it may take more work than rewriting it. Move to Draft might be the best option. [[User:Harold Foppele|Harold Foppele]] ([[User talk:Harold Foppele|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Harold Foppele|contribs]]) 08:58, 12 February 2026 (UTC)

== [[LQR Control for an Inverted Pendulum]] ==
Underdeveloped resource, has not been edited for more than a decade. [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 08:03, 16 March 2026 (UTC)

:Looks like a test, '''delete'''. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 17:30, 27 March 2026 (UTC)

== False flag &quot;authority hack&quot; user page deletion ==
{{archive top|'''Not undeleted''', the requester dropped the request. See Wikiversity:Requests for Deletion v. 2803217.--[[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 08:36, 10 May 2026 (UTC)}}
'''Undeletion requested'''

Hi, Juandev marked my user page as &quot;spam&quot; and &quot;authority hack&quot;, and deleted it. 

First, I asked him for help with &quot;time limit for new users&quot;, and he replied - I should admit I dont know, what is &quot;new user limit&quot;, but if filter blocks your page because of certain external link, you may force to save anyway and sometimes it works. It should not work, when the website is blacklisted. As of now, I am not seeing you to save page in main namespace, so try to save it without external links first. 

Then he wrote me another message: Well, I have analyzed your contribution to Wikiversity and I should point out here, that this project is not a place for advertising, so there is no way of promoting your books and authority this way. - probably referring to the intro of my About me page where I present me and my work. 

Before I could explain him the difference between the neutral information and advertising and promotion, he deleted my user page. 

Here is my answer I posted to the discussion today: 

: Hi, my About Me page is just an info page with the neutral as possible presentation of my work.
:
: There is a big difference between informing and advertising. Informing is neutrally stating that something exists and requiring no action, while advertising is a special communication form with intent to cause certain action from readers. For example, click here, click there, order this, buy that.
:
: There is no such intention, form, or terms on my info page. Just neutral information. I don't hide and I am not ashamed that I am write and author, and that is a part of the usual bio, including works. I checked your user page: &quot;I graduated from the Czech University of Life Sciences in Prague and studied information science at the Faculty of Arts of Charles University.&quot; I think that if you had written a book on Life Science, you would have mentioned that as well.
:
: Most of the Info page is about my research and AIPA Method which is a valid contribution to psychology, consciousness studies, identity theory, and personality development. Actually, my paper '''AIPA Method: A Cognitive-Phenomenological Model for Identity Reconstruction and Stabilization in Pure Awareness''' is now in the peer review procedure at Journal of Consciousness Studies.
:
: Here is a part from the Wikiversity AIPA Method page in creation (waiting for the end of the time limit for new users):

: == Introduction ==
: The AIPA Method addresses a gap in contemporary personal development and consciousness science: most evidence‑based approaches (CBT, MBSR, MBCT, standard meditation) operate at the level of mental content—reframing thoughts, observing them, or reducing their impact—rather than at the level of identity structure. In contrast, AIPA targets the structural relationship between the self and the mind, aiming at durable identity reconstruction rooted in Pure Awareness rather than symptom management.
:
: The central research question of the primary AIPA preprint is whether a structured, sequentially staged method can produce permanent identity reconstruction rooted in Pure Awareness, and how such a method compares to established approaches in scope, mechanism, and outcome.
:
: == Theoretical foundations ==
: The AIPA framework is grounded in the cognitive‑phenomenological tradition (e.g., McAdams, Varela, Metzinger, Erikson), contemporary consciousness science on minimal phenomenal experience, and qualitative methods advocacy in psychology. It builds directly on:
:* Empirical work on pure awareness and Minimal Phenomenal Experience (MPE), especially Gamma &amp; Metzinger’s large‑scale study of content‑reduced awareness states.
:* Metzinger’s proposal of minimal phenomenal experience as an entry point for a minimal unifying model of consciousness.
:* Narrative identity and partial‑self models within personality and identity theory.
: Within this backdrop, AIPA proposes Pure Awareness as a distinct, operationally specified state that can become a structural ground of identity rather than a transient meditative experience.
:
: == Experiential empiricism ==
: The empirical foundation of the AIPA Method is explicitly first‑person and experiential, combining:
:* A 22‑year longitudinal autoethnographic self‑study (2003–2025) documenting partial personality episodes, protocol use, and outcomes.
:* A 13‑year prospective verification period with zero self‑reported recurrence of targeted harmful behaviors after a dated stabilization point (1 January 2006).
:* A high‑ecological‑validity “stress test” during acute bereavement, used to examine whether non‑reactive awareness remains stable under maximal provocation.
:* Two independent practitioner cases (an Amazon‑verified report and a structured questionnaire case) providing preliminary convergent signals across cognitive, emotional, behavioral, and identity dimensions.
:
: All central constructs (Pure Awareness, partial personalities, the Switch, identity stabilization) are operationalized with explicit phenomenological and behavioral criteria intended to enable replication and future third‑person measurement.
:
: I believe this is a valid contribution to Wikiversity.
:
: Best regards, Senad [[User:Senad Dizdarević|Senad Dizdarević]]


I suggest you check the deleted user page, and see for yourself if it is &quot;spam&quot; and &quot;authority hack&quot;, or a legit author's page with one paragraph short presentation, while the rest of the page is about my research project. 

Thank you for undeleting my user page, so I can use it. 

Best regards, 

Senad Dizdarević [[User:Senad Dizdarević|Senad Dizdarević]] ([[User talk:Senad Dizdarević|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Senad Dizdarević|contribs]]) 07:26, 2 April 2026 (UTC)

:Hi Senad,
:Welcome to Wikiversity.
:It looks like you tried adding similar content to Wikipedia and ran into similar difficulties over there ([[w:User talk:Senad Dizdarević]])? Perhaps that is what has led to you Wikiversity?
:Basically, if you'd like to collaborate and help build open educational resources, feel free to contribute to Wikiversity. But if the primary motivation is to promote your autobiographical work you're probably going to run into challenges.
:Sincerely,
:James
:-- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 00:11, 3 April 2026 (UTC)
::James, Hi, and thank you for your answer. 
::Yes, in 2025, I created the autobiographic page on Wikipedia, which was removed because of the links to my books on Amazon. To admin, I explained that I did not know the rules, and agreed that page is removed. Now I know that somebody else must write a Wikipedia page for you. 
::On the deleted user page on Wikiversity, there were no links to Amazon or any other form of promotion, just neutral as possible basic presentation of my writing (one sentence) and current project (the rest of the page). 
::I created Wikiversity page to present my AIPA Method project, to invite researchers to read it, give their opinion, and conduct empirical researches in their institutions. Now, it is in a theoretical phase, and needs more empirical testing. 
::Best regards, 
::Senad [[User:Senad Dizdarević|Senad Dizdarević]] ([[User talk:Senad Dizdarević|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Senad Dizdarević|contribs]]) 07:03, 3 April 2026 (UTC)
:::It looks to me like the primary motivation for contributing to Wikiversity is to drive traffic / search engine ranking to your website?
:::* [[User:Senad Dizdarević]]
:::* [[AIPA Method]]
:::-- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 01:36, 4 April 2026 (UTC)
::::No, it is not. There is no link to my website, so &quot;driving traffic to my website&quot; is not possible. 
::::For your educational purposes: 
::::Copilot &quot;AI:  [[User:Senad Dizdarević|Senad Dizdarević]] ([[User talk:Senad Dizdarević|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Senad Dizdarević|contribs]]) 07:38, 4 April 2026 (UTC)
:::::So do you still insist of undeleting your former version of your userpage if you have created the new one? [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 08:15, 6 April 2026 (UTC)
::::::No, because in the moment of undeletition, somebody could delete it again, and so on. Thank you for not deleting my new user page, as it is made in your user page image.  [[User:Senad Dizdarević|Senad Dizdarević]] ([[User talk:Senad Dizdarević|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Senad Dizdarević|contribs]]) 08:59, 6 April 2026 (UTC)

{{archive bottom}}

== Undeletion request ==

It was deleted by an admin without discussion and with untrue rationale. If people take offense with the question that doesn't mean it's not a valid question and the page was good. Please undelete the Wikidebate page [https://web.archive.org/web/20250810030352/https://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Is_it_likely_that_Earth_has_been_visited_by_aliens_millions_of_years_ago%3F Is it likely that Earth has been visited by aliens millions of years ago?]

There are lots of sources on the subject, the wikidebate is sourced very well compared to other wikidebates and wikiversity pages, and the page is educational, useful and of good quality. [[User:Prototyperspective|Prototyperspective]] ([[User talk:Prototyperspective|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Prototyperspective|contribs]]) 23:57, 10 April 2026 (UTC)

:Page: [[Is it likely that Earth has been visited by aliens millions of years ago?]]
:Ping: [[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 00:21, 11 April 2026 (UTC)
:There is no need for a discussion for straight garbage-level, pseudoscientific content.
:For '''Is it likely that Earth has been visited by aliens millions of years ago?''', the flaws for this page wouldn't even take someone more than a few minutes to assess:
:* Essentially, the &quot;pro&quot; arguments unproven claims being derived from irrelevant, established facts (basically: &quot;it is likely aliens have came because Earth has existed for so long [sources proving Earth's longevity]&quot;). These are not serious, scientifically-backed arguments - these are non sequiturs. It's as if I said Wikipedia has existed longer than my existence on Earth ([https://d1wqtxts1xzle7.cloudfront.net/74351725/eyJoIjogImZiODhmYzNkODU1N2UxMWExYzUyODJiYzgzZTRmZDM4OTBjODY5YWMzMjA3NDNmOWEyZTA0ZTU3ZGYwZjAyYTkiLCAidSI6ICJodHRwczovL3B1cmUuaHZhLm5sL3dz-libre.pdf?1636354596=&amp;response-content-disposition=inline%3B+filename%3DCritical_Point_of_View_A_Wikipedia_Reade.pdf&amp;Expires=1775872055&amp;Signature=GqbUZboYRvUYWi~aW40LT5eZSHrLuDL3o0-DxAH8vSvcJcGAuyByZWLF2oHTY6GlB72TqvZxpE-v9d4gvsA6myriYqO~QQQZgWxjT2JXjUWC-yiPcTF4l~lroJSi4dY0v9eKiBcU03l-aeUdrX8~UPfi0TfW0IhsmzH-VBR6X6FrzRpIqc6uM6n9YXfr5FRB3aCqqokU690af3n0Hguaub1Zgmh9qjYYqzBS0VOOHjKTTEQnDuadX3jl5CQeXYTaeCC3H0hMeVwHlratbrnuFEKC1aN0-5znCUoSzMEg21ECzGPTrSDM1W05dcK-u0ZTCeUGKAuC-2yRFL3sY46MIw__&amp;Key-Pair-Id=APKAJLOHF5GGSLRBV4ZA#page=157 reputable source proving ''this'' fact]), therefore it's likely that my birth took place solely for the sake of me experiencing Wikipedia (0 backing). It makes no sense and no person with at least a high school-level of intelligence would take this seriously. 
:* What is worse is that the user is being misleading with their &quot;[the page is] sourced very well&quot; claim. The sources ''themselves'' don't even back up the claims. It's just used as proof for an established concept, where the user then uses this established concept to jump to an unsupported, laughable conclusion that is pulled out of thin air. It's utterly ridiculous to even consider such a page for mainspace since it clearly violates our [[Wikiversity:Verifiability]] policy. This is, once again, pseudoscientific content that has caused our website to reduce in quality over the last few years. 
:* Going source by source, we can see that:
:#[https://web.archive.org/web/20250918011642/https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/blogs/thebigd/compress-earths-history-into-24-hrs-humans-came-at-1158-pm-yet-killed-70-of-wildlife/ ‘Compress Earth’s history into 24 hrs. Humans came at 11:58 pm, yet killed 70% of wildlife’] is literally just a blog post which doesn't even mention aliens or extraterrestrial life. It just talks about Earth's history in accordance with the 24-hour metric of time, and the author tries to use this article as a 'piece in the puzzle' of aliens &quot;possibly&quot; visiting Earth... which, once again, is unsupported and is not backed up anywhere in the article.
:#[https://web.archive.org/web/20250808053249/https://news.cornell.edu/stories/2023/11/jurassic-worlds-might-be-easier-spot-modern-earth The Cornell article does not even remotely support the idea that &quot;aliens visited Earth&quot;]. It mentions a ''chance'' of &quot;life there [a habitable exoplanet] might not be limited to microbes, but could include creatures as large and varied as the megalosauruses or microraptors that once roamed Earth.&quot;, but again, no justification to take this article as proof that &quot;aliens may have visited us!&quot;. There's no mention of aliens visiting Earth anywhere in the article. Once again this is only proving the background premise, but not the unsupported, nonsensical &quot;alien likelihood&quot; argument that the author of this garbage page is trying to push so desperately.
:#The Parker Solar Probe WP article does not even mention aliens either. It follows the same issues as the previous argument.
:And the other page this user complained about [https://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/User_talk:Atcovi#Deletion_of_educational_page_because_of_personal_opinion on my talk page] holds almost similar, maybe even more fatal mistakes, than this one. It has nothing to do with &quot;taking offense&quot;, this is just low-quality, garbage content. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 00:56, 11 April 2026 (UTC)
::Why do you think pro claims are required to be proven? It's possible to object to them and these are arguments, not contextualized to be statements of proven facts. And it's not a strange or unreasonable argument to make that since Earth has existed for long, it's more likely that aliens have come here in the past than in recent times or the near future. Instead of insulting others' intelligence, maybe engage with the actual reasoning rather than censoring it away. And there are lots of sources, such as [https://interestingengineering.com/science/alien-civilizations-may-have-visited-earth-millions-of-years-ago-study-says Alien Civilizations May Have Visited Earth Millions of Years Ago, Study Says] etc etc. The sources are used for the arguments themselves individually. [[User:Prototyperspective|Prototyperspective]] ([[User talk:Prototyperspective|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Prototyperspective|contribs]]) 12:30, 11 April 2026 (UTC)
:::Because, once again, this is not a site that caters to rampant debating for the sake of &quot;we need to employ rationality and logic to solve the world's problems&quot;, we have policies that we need to fulfill. The claims made in the pro argument clearly do not meet [[Wikiversity:Verifiability]], since you cannot verify these arguments with the sources because they are not relevant. 
:::''&quot;And it's not a strange or unreasonable argument to make that since Earth has existed for long, it's more likely that aliens have come here in the past than in recent times or the near future.&quot;'' The point being is that these arguments are not supported by the sources. Even the article you mention poses the idea as a hypothetical model. This is just you twisting the article to fit your unsupported narrative. I'll bring direct quotes for you to show why the linked article does not help you:
:::* ''One problem the researchers do make sure to point out is that '''they are working with only one data point: our own behaviors and capabilities for space exploration'''. “We tried to come up with a model that would involve the fewest assumptions about sociology that we could,” Carroll-Nellenback told Business Insider. '''We have no real way of knowing the motivations of an alien civilization'''.'' --&gt; proves that this is just speculation and no evidence-based arguments have been provided for the idea that aliens likely visited Earth.
:::And I'm not sure if you read my entire response, but I ''did'' engage with your &quot;actual reasoning&quot; and exposed its weaknesses and lack of adherence to Wikiversity policies. If we allowed content that was just filled with non sequiturs we would have content that fails Wikiversity's educational objectives and reduces the overall quality of this website, hence why such a harsh stance needs to be taken. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 13:50, 11 April 2026 (UTC)
::::Thanks for proving that the Wikimedia ecosystem is unfit to deliberate on controversial topics. The question is entirely valid and the content is far better sourced than nearly all Wikidebates and has no genuine flaws. The only possible issue with it as far as I can see is that now that Wikidebates has been paused people can't add objections if they do have sth specific to say about the topic that's not already included on that page which already had plenty of Cons and objections.
::::The page was more educational than most of Wikiversity and it was well-sourced – wikidebates was for arguments so people were invited to make arguments based on sourced things or outlined logic and the page met [[WV:V]] and most pages on Wikiversity aren't sourced as good. Doesn't look like people can see beyond their biases and personal views here but that's more evident in the marginalization and deletion of wikidebates and the low activity in that project than these selective deletions. A constructive thing to do would be to add reasoned Cons and objections not yet on the page and people had plenty of time to do that. There are and will be other sites for free constructive rational adversarial deliberation (not a big loss in that sense). [[User:Prototyperspective|Prototyperspective]] ([[User talk:Prototyperspective|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Prototyperspective|contribs]]) 16:31, 22 April 2026 (UTC)
:::::Thank you for failing to address any of my arguments and going on an unrelated, nonsensical tangent that has nothing to do with the discussion. Once you start producing work that aligns with Wikiversity's content policies instead of typing up laughable, pseudoscientific garbage, then maybe your work can be accepted and not removed. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 16:59, 22 April 2026 (UTC)
::::::I suggest you stop ridiculing things and learn respectfully forming genuine points about the subject at hand. {{tq|the idea as a hypothetical model}} but please learn first about what arguments are and why they're not the same as a statement of objective proven fact. [[User:Prototyperspective|Prototyperspective]] ([[User talk:Prototyperspective|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Prototyperspective|contribs]]) 17:18, 22 April 2026 (UTC)</text>
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== Requests and Nominations for Curatorship ==
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;Notes
# Registered users can either request [[Wikiversity:Curators|curatorship]], or be nominated for it by others. Candidates who have not accepted a nomination, or have failed to secure a mentor within one week are [[/Archived|archived]] as incomplete. 
# See [[Special:UserGroupRights#curator]] for some details on what options are available for curators.
#Candidates can request a mentor from those listed at [[Wikiversity:List of custodian mentors]]; the requested mentor must agree.
#Candidates: please respond to any questions from the community about your wiki editing and wiki participation.
&lt;!-- 
     **** !!!!! *****
      To request curatorship, please add yourself below. To nominate someone else, please add them below as well.
      Don't forget about TRANSCLUSION!
      i.e. type in {{/YOURNAME|Your name}}
      and then edit that page, not this one.
     **** !!!!! *****
 --&gt;
''None at present.''
{{clear}}

== Nominations for Custodianship ==
{{shortcut|WV:NFC|WV:CC/C|WV:CFC/C}}
;Notes:
#Candidates for [[Wikiversity:Custodianship|custodianship]] are listed below.
#Candidates must be 18 years of age or older, of legal age in place of residence, and be familiar with [[Meta:Privacy policy]].
#Archived requests can be seen at [[Special:PrefixIndex/Wikiversity:Candidates for Custodianship/]]
''None at present.''
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== Nominations for [[Wikiversity:CheckUser policy|CheckUser]] ==
;Notes:
CheckUsers are required to follow Wikimedia Foundation's [[Meta:CheckUser policy|CheckUser policy]], including requirements for gaining access to the checkuser tools.
# Candidates must be 18 years of age or older, of legal age in place of residence, be familiar with [[Meta:Privacy policy]], and supply identification to the Wikimedia Foundation.
# Candidates must have '''70–80% agreed consensus or more and a minimum of 25–30 votes in support''' by local community members. Following this, [[Meta:Requests for permissions|permission must be requested]] from the Wikimedia Foundation. Projects must have 2 or more check users, or none at all.
''None at present.''
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== Nominations for [[Wikiversity:Bureaucratship|Bureaucratship]] == 
{{shortcut|WV:NFB|WV:NB|WV:CC/B|WV:CFC/B}}
&lt;!-- {{Wikiversity:Candidates for Custodianship/Username (Bureaucrat)}} --&gt;
''None at present.''
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== See also ==
*[[Wikiversity:Custodian Mentorship|Custodian Mentorship]]
*[[Wikiversity:Custodianship|Custodianship]]
*[[Wikiversity:Bureaucratship|Bureaucratship]]
*[[Wikiversity:Candidates for Custodianship/Archive of nominations for full custodianship|Candidates for Custodianship/Archive of nominations for full custodianship]]
*[[Wikiversity:Candidates for Custodianship/Archived|Candidates for Custodianship/Archived]] - archive of failed nominations
*[[Wikiversity:Candidates for Bureaucratship/Archive of pending nominations|Candidates for Bureaucratship/Archive of pending nominations]]
*[[Wikiversity:Custodian requests|Custodian requests]]
*[[Wikiversity:List of custodian mentors|List of custodian mentors]] 
*[[Wikiversity:Support staff]]

[[Category:Wikiversity custodianship]]</text>
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== Nominations for Custodianship ==
{{shortcut|WV:NFC|WV:CC/C|WV:CFC/C}}
;Notes:
#Candidates for [[Wikiversity:Custodianship|custodianship]] are listed below.
#Candidates must be 18 years of age or older, of legal age in place of residence, and be familiar with [[Meta:Privacy policy]].
#Archived requests can be seen at [[Special:PrefixIndex/Wikiversity:Candidates for Custodianship/]]
''None at present.''
{{clear}}

== Nominations for [[Wikiversity:CheckUser policy|CheckUser]] ==
;Notes:
CheckUsers are required to follow Wikimedia Foundation's [[Meta:CheckUser policy|CheckUser policy]], including requirements for gaining access to the checkuser tools.
# Candidates must be 18 years of age or older, of legal age in place of residence, be familiar with [[Meta:Privacy policy]], and supply identification to the Wikimedia Foundation.
# Candidates must have '''70–80% agreed consensus or more and a minimum of 25–30 votes in support''' by local community members. Following this, [[Meta:Requests for permissions|permission must be requested]] from the Wikimedia Foundation. Projects must have 2 or more check users, or none at all.
''None at present.''
{{clear}}

== See also ==
*[[Wikiversity:Custodian Mentorship|Custodian Mentorship]]
*[[Wikiversity:Custodianship|Custodianship]]
*[[Wikiversity:Bureaucratship|Bureaucratship]]
*[[Wikiversity:Candidates for Custodianship/Archive of nominations for full custodianship|Candidates for Custodianship/Archive of nominations for full custodianship]]
*[[Wikiversity:Candidates for Custodianship/Archived|Candidates for Custodianship/Archived]] - archive of failed nominations
*[[Wikiversity:Candidates for Bureaucratship/Archive of pending nominations|Candidates for Bureaucratship/Archive of pending nominations]]
*[[Wikiversity:Custodian requests|Custodian requests]]
*[[Wikiversity:List of custodian mentors|List of custodian mentors]] 
*[[Wikiversity:Support staff]]

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== Nominations for Custodianship ==
{{shortcut|WV:NFC|WV:CC/C|WV:CFC/C}}
;Notes:
#Candidates for [[Wikiversity:Custodianship|custodianship]] are listed below.
#Candidates must be 18 years of age or older, of legal age in place of residence, and be familiar with [[Meta:Privacy policy]].
#Archived requests can be seen at [[Special:PrefixIndex/Wikiversity:Candidates for Custodianship/]]
''None at present.''
{{clear}}

== Nominations for [[Wikiversity:CheckUser policy|CheckUser]] ==
;Notes:
CheckUsers are required to follow Wikimedia Foundation's [[Meta:CheckUser policy|CheckUser policy]], including requirements for gaining access to the checkuser tools.
# Candidates must be 18 years of age or older, of legal age in place of residence, be familiar with [[Meta:Privacy policy]], and supply identification to the Wikimedia Foundation.
# Candidates must have '''70–80% agreed consensus or more and a minimum of 25–30 votes in support''' by local community members. Following this, [[Meta:Requests for permissions|permission must be requested]] from the Wikimedia Foundation. Projects must have 2 or more check users, or none at all.
''None at present.''
{{clear}}

== See also ==
*[[Wikiversity:Curators]]
*[[Wikiversity:Custodianship|Custodianship]]
**[[Wikiversity:Custodian Mentorship|Custodian Mentorship]]
**[[Wikiversity:Candidates for Custodianship/Archive of nominations for full custodianship|Candidates for Custodianship/Archive of nominations for full custodianship]]
**[[Wikiversity:Candidates for Custodianship/Archived|Candidates for Custodianship/Archived]] - archive of failed nominations
**[[Wikiversity:Custodian requests|Custodian requests]]
**[[Wikiversity:List of custodian mentors|List of custodian mentors]] 
*[[Wikiversity:Support staff]]

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== Nominations for Custodianship ==
{{shortcut|WV:NFC|WV:CC/C|WV:CFC/C}}
;Notes:
#Candidates for [[Wikiversity:Custodianship|custodianship]] are listed below.
#Candidates must be 18 years of age or older, of legal age in place of residence, and be familiar with [[Meta:Privacy policy]].
#Archived requests can be seen at [[Special:PrefixIndex/Wikiversity:Candidates for Custodianship/]]
''None at present.''
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== Nominations for [[Wikiversity:CheckUser policy|CheckUser]] ==
;Notes:
CheckUsers are required to follow Wikimedia Foundation's [[Meta:CheckUser policy|CheckUser policy]], including requirements for gaining access to the checkuser tools.
# Candidates must be 18 years of age or older, of legal age in place of residence, be familiar with [[Meta:Privacy policy]], and supply identification to the Wikimedia Foundation.
# Candidates must have '''70–80% agreed consensus or more and a minimum of 25–30 votes in support''' by local community members. Following this, [[Meta:Requests for permissions|permission must be requested]] from the Wikimedia Foundation. Projects must have 2 or more check users, or none at all.
''None at present.''
{{clear}}

== See also ==
*[[Wikiveristy:Bureaucratship|Bureaucratship]]
*[[Wikiversity:Curators|Curators]]
*[[Wikiversity:Custodianship|Custodianship]]
**[[Wikiversity:Custodian Mentorship|Custodian Mentorship]]
**[[Wikiversity:Candidates for Custodianship/Archive of nominations for full custodianship|Candidates for Custodianship/Archive of nominations for full custodianship]]
**[[Wikiversity:Candidates for Custodianship/Archived|Candidates for Custodianship/Archived]] - archive of failed nominations
**[[Wikiversity:Custodian requests|Custodian requests]]
**[[Wikiversity:List of custodian mentors|List of custodian mentors]] 
*[[Wikiversity:Support staff]]

[[Category:Wikiversity custodianship]]</text>
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__TOC__

== Nominations for Custodianship ==
{{shortcut|WV:NFC|WV:CC/C|WV:CFC/C}}
;Notes:
#Candidates for [[Wikiversity:Custodianship|custodianship]] are listed below.
#Candidates must be 18 years of age or older, of legal age in place of residence, and be familiar with [[Meta:Privacy policy]].
#Archived requests can be seen at [[Special:PrefixIndex/Wikiversity:Candidates for Custodianship/]]
''None at present.''
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== Nominations for [[Wikiversity:CheckUser policy|CheckUser]] ==
;Notes:
CheckUsers are required to follow Wikimedia Foundation's [[Meta:CheckUser policy|CheckUser policy]], including requirements for gaining access to the checkuser tools.
# Candidates must be 18 years of age or older, of legal age in place of residence, be familiar with [[Meta:Privacy policy]], and supply identification to the Wikimedia Foundation.
# Candidates must have '''70–80% agreed consensus or more and a minimum of 25–30 votes in support''' by local community members. Following this, [[Meta:Requests for permissions|permission must be requested]] from the Wikimedia Foundation. Projects must have 2 or more check users, or none at all.
''None at present.''
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== See also ==
*[[Wikiversity:Bureaucratship|Bureaucratship]]
*[[Wikiversity:Curators|Curators]]
*[[Wikiversity:Custodianship|Custodianship]]
**[[Wikiversity:Custodian Mentorship|Custodian Mentorship]]
**[[Wikiversity:Candidates for Custodianship/Archive of nominations for full custodianship|Candidates for Custodianship/Archive of nominations for full custodianship]]
**[[Wikiversity:Candidates for Custodianship/Archived|Candidates for Custodianship/Archived]] - archive of failed nominations
**[[Wikiversity:Custodian requests|Custodian requests]]
**[[Wikiversity:List of custodian mentors|List of custodian mentors]] 
*[[Wikiversity:Support staff]]

[[Category:Wikiversity custodianship]]</text>
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== Nominations for Custodianship ==
{{shortcut|WV:NFC|WV:CC/C|WV:CFC/C}}
;Notes:
#Candidates for [[Wikiversity:Custodianship|custodianship]] are listed below.
#Candidates must be 18 years of age or older, of legal age in place of residence, and be familiar with [[Meta:Privacy policy]].
#Archived requests can be seen at [[Special:PrefixIndex/Wikiversity:Candidates for Custodianship/]]
''None at present.''
{{clear}}

== See also ==
*[[Wikiversity:Bureaucratship|Bureaucratship]]
*[[Wikiversity:CheckUser policy|CheckUser]]
*[[Wikiversity:Curators|Curators]]
*[[Wikiversity:Custodianship|Custodianship]]
**[[Wikiversity:Custodian Mentorship|Custodian Mentorship]]
**[[Wikiversity:Candidates for Custodianship/Archive of nominations for full custodianship|Candidates for Custodianship/Archive of nominations for full custodianship]]
**[[Wikiversity:Candidates for Custodianship/Archived|Candidates for Custodianship/Archived]] - archive of failed nominations
**[[Wikiversity:Custodian requests|Custodian requests]]
**[[Wikiversity:List of custodian mentors|List of custodian mentors]] 
*[[Wikiversity:Support staff]]

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{{Policy|WV:CUST}}
[[File:Wikiversity Administrator.svg|right|130px|link=]]

A Wikiversity '''custodian''' is an experienced and trusted user who can [[#Edit and move protection of pages|protect]], [[#Deletion and restoration of pages|delete]] and restore pages as well as [[#User blocks|block]] users from editing. Custodians are the Wikiversity equivalent of administrators, also known as sysops, bibliotecarios&amp;nbsp;(librarians), and moderators.

The English Wikiversity currently has {{NUMBEROFADMINS}} custodian{{PLURAL:{{NUMBEROFADMINS}}||s}} ([[Special:ListUsers/sysop|full list]]), including human and bot users.

{{center top}}'''[[Wikiversity:Request custodian action|Request assistance]]''' - '''[[Wikiversity:Support staff#Support staff directory|List of custodians]]''' - '''[[Wikiversity:Candidates for Custodianship|Requests for custodianship]]'''{{center bottom}}

== How does one become a custodian? ==
{{shortcut|WV:CUST/HOW}}
Any [[Wikiversity:Who are Wikiversity participants?|Wikiversity participant]] willing to do a lot of [[#What can custodians do?|dull and boring work]] for the community can become a custodian. If you have a good editing record then you are likely to be trusted and granted the privileges and responsibilities of custodianship. If you are still interested in custodianship, here is the process it takes:

{| style=&quot;border-collapse: collapse&quot; border=&quot;1&quot; cellpadding=&quot;4&quot;
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&lt;div id=&quot;Request&quot;&gt;
;Request
&lt;/div&gt;
You must request or be nominated for custodianship at [[Wikiversity:Candidates for Custodianship|Candidates for Custodianship]]. State your reasons for seeking this position and in what areas you are or would like to be active. You may also refer to your contributions and indicate whether you have similar responsibilities at other projects.
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&lt;div id=&quot;Mentorship&quot;&gt;
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[[Wikiversity:List of custodian mentors|Custodian mentors]] are expected to guide and advise you on the appropriate use of custodian privileges in accordance with established policy and community consensus. If any experienced custodians agree to mentor you and you agree to their mentorship, then you will be approved as a [[w:Probation (workplace)|probationary]] custodian for a period of at least '''four weeks'''. You will have all the privileges described below. If you have any questions or concerns, you should contact your mentor(s) for guidance and advice. If you or your mentor terminate the mentorship agreement before the probationary period is complete, you will have 48 hours to find a new mentor. Otherwise your mentor may [[Meta:SRP|request removal of custodian privileges]] after 48 hours, without any further notice or community discussion.
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&lt;div id=&quot;Evaluation&quot;&gt;
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Your mentor will submit a request for comments at [[Wikiversity:Candidates for Custodianship|Candidates for Custodianship]] for a period of at least seven days when you are ready. During that period Wikiversity participants can evaluate how well the custodian privileges are used and how you conducted yourself at Wikiversity.
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After one week of evaluation, a bureaucrat will make the final decision based on the arguments provided in the discussion. If you are approved, you will be a [[#Notes|permanent custodian]]. If you are not approved, your probationary period may either be extended or you may request another mentorship later.
 |}

== What can custodians do? ==
{{shortcut|WV:CUST/WHAT}}
=== Deletion and undeletion of pages ===
{{shortcut|WV:CUST/D}}
[[File:Delete and Protect buttons.png|200px|right]]
Custodians can delete pages including images, categories, templates, etc. Deletion is subject to [[Wikiversity:Policies|policy]]. Deletion requests may be submitted by any user at [[Wikiversity:Requests for Deletion]].

Deleting a page does not actually remove it from the database. It is merely invisible to non-custodians and can be restored at request, which may be submitted at [[Wikiversity:Requests for Deletion]]. Page deletions and undeletions can be monitored by viewing the [[Special:Log/delete|deletion log]].

Custodians can also delete individual versions with the [[Wikiversity:Revision deletion|RevisionDelete]] feature. This is particularly useful to remove materials that violate [[Wikiversity:Copyrights|copyrights]] or other applicable law.

Before you delete a page, read: [[Wikiversity:Welcome templates]]. See also: [[Wikiversity:Deletion policy]].

=== Edit and move protection of pages ===
Custodians can [[Wikiversity:Page protection|protect pages]] to prevent editing. There are two types of page protection: semi-protection, which prevents anonymous and new users from editing, and full protection, which prevents all non-custodians from editing. A page can also be protected to prevent moving. Page protection can be lifted by any custodian upon request, which may be submitted at [[Wikiversity:Request custodian action]]. Page protections and unprotections can be monitored by viewing the [[Special:Log/protect|protection log]].

=== Rollback ===
[[Image:Rollback button.png|thumb|300px|Rollback button]]
Custodians have a ''[[Wikiversity:Rollback|rollback tool]]'' to revert the last change or group of changes made to a page by the same user. There is no option to provide an edit summary when using this tool. Instead, a summary such as &quot;Reverted edits by [[Special:Contributions/$2|$2]] ([[User_talk:$2|talk]]) to last version by [[User:$1|$1]] using [[Wikiversity:Rollback|rollback]]&quot; will be used automatically. This tool is primarily used to respond to obvious vandalism. For other edit reversions, the rollback button should not be used and a good edit summary should be provided.

=== User blocks ===
{{shortcut|WV:CUST/B}}
Custodians can block users from editing by specifying a username, an IP address or range of addresses. Blocks can be temporary or permanent. Most frequently, blocking occurs in response to obvious and repeated vandalism. When blocking a user, a reason for blocking must be provided which is displayed in the [[Special:Log/block|block log]]. It is also possible to block IP addresses from creating new user accounts. See [[Wikiversity:Blocking policy]].

=== Editing MediaWiki [[Wikiversity:Namespaces|namespace]] ===
{{shortcut|WV:CUST/MW}}
Custodians are able to edit system messages (the standard texts that are used by the MediaWiki software).

=== Import ===
Custodians have access to the [[Special:Import|Import tool]], to bring materials from Wikipedia, Wikibooks, Beta.Wikiversity, Wikiquote, and Wikisource.

== How are custodians expected to act? ==
{{shortcut|WV:CUST/E}}
Custodians are supposed to follow the same principles as every other user, including [[Wikiversity:Civility|being civil]], [[Wikiversity:Assume Good Faith|assuming good faith]], and understanding [[Wikiversity:What is Wikiversity?|what Wikiversity is]]. They are expected to act professionally, and to respect policy and [[Wikiversity:Consensus|community consensus]]. 

For a discussion of possible failure to act professionally, see a proposed recusal policy at [[Wikiversity:Recusal]].

==Problems with custodians==
{{shortcut|WV:CUST/P}}
If you have a question about an action (page deletion, page protection, user block, editing MediaWiki namespace pages, violation of Wikiversity policy or some other action that does serious damage to the project) by a Wikiversity custodian, the first thing to do is leave a message on that custodian's user discussion page. Custodians should always be able to explain how their actions support Wikiversity. If you cannot get satisfaction from discussion with the custodian, you can place comments, suggestions, complaints or questions at [[Wikiversity:Custodian feedback|Custodian feedback]]. Try to resolve all custodian problems by discussion.

Custodians can lose their status for [[wikt:egregious|egregious]] violations of policies. Loss of custodianship involves a process that establishes community consensus. If a specific complaint is not resolved at [[Wikiversity:Custodian feedback|Custodian feedback]] then a [[Wikiversity:Community Review|Community Review]] can be initiated to establish if there is community consensus in support for the custodianship of the custodian who is the subject of the unresolved complaint. At the end of the review, Wikiversity bureaucrats will review the discussion. If a bureaucrat decides that there is good reason for removal of a custodianship, that bureaucrat will go to the meta-wiki and [[m:Requests for permissions|request]] that stewards review the community discussion. If a steward agrees that the Wikiversity community has reached consensus about a problem custodian, then that steward can terminate the custodianship of the custodian.

If you have a question about an action of a probationary custodian, you should consult their mentor(s). Actions of a probationary custodian are the responsibility of their mentor(s) during their probationary period. Partially depending on agreements made in the probationary candidacy, and with respect for the 48 hour period to find a new mentor, a request to remove custodianship for a probationary custodian may often be made at Meta by any mentor or bureaucrat without need for community consensus. The local process to remove custodianship should only need to be used as a last resort, because of this alternative option.

== Notes ==
{{shortcut|WV:CUST/N}}
* Custodianship is a responsibility, not a right. While everyone is encouraged to apply for custodianship, the position is not suited for everyone. Please also note that in all instances not listed above, custodians have no more power or weight than other users.
* Custodians should set their &quot;user preferences&quot; so as to provide for email contacts from other Wikiversity participants. If you do not use email, then you must make yourself easily available by some other means such as [[Wikiversity:Chat|IRC chat]].
* The maximum time period of inactivity &lt;u&gt;without community review&lt;/u&gt; for holders of advanced administrative rights is two years per the [[:meta:Category:Global policies|global policy]] described at [[meta:Admin activity review|Admin activity review]]. After that time, a [[meta:Stewards|steward]] will remove the rights.&lt;ref&gt;See also a decision apparently made in [[Wikiversity:Request custodian action/Archive/24#Reviews for Inactivity]].&lt;/ref&gt;

== Useful reads for custodians ==
{{Wikiversity organization}}
===Wikiversity===
* [[Wikiversity:Blocking policy]]
* [[Wikiversity:No shrines for vandals]]
* [[Wikiversity:Policies]]
* [[Wikiversity:Revision deletion]]
* [[How to be a Wikimedia sysop/Wikiversity]]

===MediaWiki/Wikimedia===
* [[How to be a Wikimedia sysop]]
* [[b:MediaWiki Administrator's Handbook|MediaWiki Administrator's Handbook]]

==See also==
*[[Special:ListUsers/sysop|List of current Wikiversity custodians and bureaucrats]]
*[[Wikiversity:Bureaucratship]]
*[[Wikiversity:Candidates for Custodianship]]
*[[Wikiversity:CheckUser policy]]
*[[Wikiversity:Curators]]
*[[Wikiversity:History of Wikiversity/Custodianship]]
*[[Wikiversity:Support staff|Wikiversity:Staff]]
*[[Special:ListGroupRights]]
*[[Wikiversity:Request_custodian_action/Archive/24#Reviews_for_Inactivity]] (Inactivity policy for Wikiversity Custodians)

{{Official policies}}
[[Category:Wikiversity custodianship| ]]</text>
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{| style=&quot;border-spacing:8px;margin:0px -8px&quot; width=&quot;100%&quot;
|class=&quot;MainPageBG&quot; style=&quot;width: 55%; border:1px solid #084080; background-color:#F5FFFA; vertical-align:top;color:#000000;font-size: 85%&quot;|
{| width=&quot;100%&quot; cellpadding=&quot;2&quot; cellspacing=&quot;5&quot; style=&quot;vertical-align:top; background-color:#F5FFFA&quot;
! &lt;div style=&quot;margin: 0; background-color:#CEF2E0; font-family: sans-serif; font-size:120%; font-weight:bold; border:1px solid #084080; text-align:left; color:#082840; padding-left:0.4em; padding-top: 0.2em; padding-bottom: 0.2em;&quot;&gt; '''Hello Koavf! [[Wikiversity:Welcome, newcomers|Welcome]] to [[Wikiversity:What is Wikiversity?|Wikiversity]]!''' If you decide that you need help, check out [[Wikiversity:Help desk]], ask the [[Wikiversity:Support staff|support staff]], or ask me on my talk page. Please remember to [[Wikiversity:Sign your posts on talk pages|sign your name]] on talk pages using four tildes (~&amp;#126;~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. Below are some recommended guidelines to facilitate your involvement. Happy Editing! -- [[User:Trevor MacInnis|Trevor MacInnis]] 22:28, 4 September 2006 (UTC)&lt;/div&gt;
|}
{| style=&quot;border-spacing:8px;margin:0px -8px&quot; width=&quot;100%&quot;
|class=&quot;MainPageBG&quot; style=&quot;width: 55%; border:1px solid #FFFFFF; background-color:#F5FFFA; vertical-align:top&quot;|
{| width=&quot;100%&quot; cellpadding=&quot;2&quot; cellspacing=&quot;5&quot; style=&quot;vertical-align:top; background-color:#F5FFFA&quot;
! &lt;div style=&quot;margin: 0; background-color:#084080; font-family: sans-serif; font-size:120%; font-weight:bold; border:1px solid #CEF2E0; text-align:left; color:#FFC000; padding-left:0.4em; padding-top: 0.2em; padding-bottom: 0.2em;&quot;&gt;Getting Started&lt;/div&gt;
|-
|style=&quot;color:#000&quot;|
* [[Wikiversity:Guided tour|Take a guided tour]]
* [[Help:Editing|How to edit a page]]
* [[Wikiversity:Be bold|Be bold in editing]]
* [[Portal:Learning Projects|Learning Projects]]
* [[Wikiversity:What Wikiversity is not|What Wikiversity is not]]
|-
! &lt;div style=&quot;margin: 0; background:#084080; font-family: sans-serif; font-size:120%; font-weight:bold; border:1px solid #cef2e0; text-align:left; color:#FFC000; padding-left:0.4em; padding-top: 0.2em; padding-bottom: 0.2em;&quot;&gt;Getting your info out there&lt;/div&gt;
|-
| style=&quot;color:#000&quot;|
* [[Wikiversity:Cite sources|Cite your sources]]
* [[Wikiversity:Disclosures|Neutral Point of View]]
* [[Wikiversity:Verifiability|Verifiability]]
|-
! &lt;div style=&quot;margin: 0; background:#084080; font-family: sans-serif; font-size:120%; font-weight:bold; border:1px solid #cef2e0; text-align:left; color:#FFC000; padding-left:0.4em; padding-top: 0.2em; padding-bottom: 0.2em;&quot;&gt;Getting more Wikiversity rules&lt;/div&gt;
|-
| style=&quot;color:#000&quot;|
* [[Wikiversity:Policies|Policy Library]]
|-
|}
|class=&quot;MainPageBG&quot; style=&quot;width: 55%; border:1px solid #FFFFFF; background-color:#F5FFFA; vertical-align:top&quot;|
{| width=&quot;100%&quot; cellpadding=&quot;2&quot; cellspacing=&quot;5&quot; style=&quot;vertical-align:top; background-color:#F5FFFA&quot;
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|-
|style=&quot;color:#000&quot;|
* [[Wikiversity:Research|Research guidelines]]
* [[Wikiversity:Help desk|Help Desk]]
|-
! &lt;div style=&quot;margin: 0; background-color:#084080; font-family: sans-serif; font-size:120%; font-weight:bold; border:1px solid #cef2e0; text-align:left; color:#FFC000; padding-left:0.4em; padding-top: 0.2em; padding-bottom: 0.2em;&quot;&gt;Getting along&lt;/div&gt;
|-
|style=&quot;color:#000&quot;|
* [[Wikiversity:Civility|Civility]]
* [[Wikiversity:Sign your posts on talk pages|Sign your posts]]
* [[Wikiversity:Scholarly ethics|Scholarly ethics]]
|-
! &lt;div style=&quot;margin: 0; background-color:#084080; font-family: sans-serif; font-size:120%; font-weight:bold; border:1px solid #cef2e0; text-align:left; color:#FFC000; padding-left:0.4em; padding-top: 0.2em; padding-bottom: 0.2em;&quot;&gt;Getting technical&lt;/div&gt;
|-
|style=&quot;color:#000&quot;|
[[Image:Wikimedia Foundation RGB logo with text.svg|60px|right]]
* [[Wikiversity:Colloquium|Colloquium]]
|-
|}
|}
|}

== wikitravel ==

Hi. You removed links to Wikitravel. Why? --[[User:Abd|Abd]] ([[User talk:Abd|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Abd|contribs]]) 12:44, 24 October 2013 (UTC)
:'''Wikitravel links''' Per discussion at [[w:Template:Wikitravel|en.wp]] as well as [[m:Interwiki map|Meta]] to remove links at those projects. If you want to keep links and references here at en.v, I guess that's fine. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 18:28, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

== Thanks. ==

I see you got it before I explained. Wikiversity is disconcerting to those familiar with the encyclopedia projects, and the other content-oriented projects. While we do have a content mission, we ''also'' have a &quot;learning by doing&quot; mission, which is about ''people.'' Our product is not just content, it is education, and there is no education without users who are educated, and sophisticated education is always about process and people skills and the rest. I would argue that the encyclopedia projects also need to be welcoming, if the full mission is to be fulfilled, but ... they developed with a very narrow focus and absent the realization that an environment that was easily seen as hostile would damage the mission.

The 20th century saw the development of systems and skills and process for maximizing consensus, and the only reliable measure of neutrality is level of consensus. (I.e., if everyone involved agrees, 100% consensus, while what they agree upon only might possibly turn out, in the end, to be defective or invalid, there is no better measure!). So to the extent that there is exclusion, to that extent, the assessment of neutrality can be warped.

Obviously, compromises are necessary, but &quot;compromise&quot; requires tolerating a level of damage, and that is easily forgotten. When the importance of consensus being as broad as possible is realized, a community will find ways to keep conversation open, on some level, in some place, otherwise the community becomes locked into what I call the &quot;tyranny of the past.&quot; There is a children's song that was part of a therapeutic response to Reactive Attachment Disorder:
:'''There is always something you can do, do, do'''
:'''When you're getting in a stew, stew, stew.'''

Mostly, it involves simmering down, dropping upset and reactive response, and, when calm, communicating.

While this kind of work has been done on Wikipedia, often in user space -- it's what I did, successfully mediating disputes, such that users at each other's throats became cooperative ''with each other'' -- this was mumbo-jumbo nonsense to too many on Wikipedia. For example, see [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Miscellany_for_deletion/Abd_user_pages], which included many pages of historical function, including evidence presented to ArbCom. I found it very strange that ArbCom did not care that evidence used in a case was being deleted, but ArbCom consists of too many elevated beyond their competence by popularity (as well as many other highly-experienced and thoughtful user; but the system tends to burn them out and they become less attentive.)

[[w:User:Abd/Dispute over thermoeconomics]] was particularly educational. In that mediation, a professor was revert warring with Randy from Boise, so to speak, and one or both were about to be blocked. It took very little to develop cooperation, mostly just sitting them down together with some support. Hmmm... I'm thinking of asking that these pages be transwikied to Wikiversity, precisely for historical study.

Looking for the link to that, I came across [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Miscellany_for_deletion/User:UBX/Esperanza_returns this]. It shows a quick and major clue to what happened on en.wiki. Two three-letter users with a conflict. One was an administrator taken to ArbCom by the other, and the administrator was trout-slapped by ArbCom and then, it is obvious, revenge was exacted, by the admin and his friends. This was long-continued and, while not unnoticed, never sanctioned. Admins can be hostile, this one was more than hostile, he was highly insulting at times, using obscene language, and using tools while involved, was reprimanded, made small adjustments to his behavior, but continued pretty much unimpeded. And, as you know, this is not uncommon. He is even a likeable Guy. I consider this all the responsibility ''of the community.'' Blaming people for what comes naturally for them is not productive. Such people generally will modify behavior in a functional community.

Notice the irony. The userbox was &quot;Esperanza returns,&quot; referring to the project designed to foster civility and welcome and cooperation. Esperanza, of course, means Hope. So the nominator was saying, &quot;Hope will never return.&quot; Esperanza was crushed when it temporarily was inactive. Instead of improving the governance, which was easily possible, it was crushed with ''vehemence,'' see the [[w:Wikipedia:Miscellany_for_deletion/Wikipedia:Esperanza|MfD]]. Why?

To any serious student of human organizational structure, it's obvious.

Wikiversity is the slim thread of hope, and if it is not protected and defended, hope will break.

Thanks again. --[[User:Abd|Abd]] ([[User talk:Abd|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Abd|contribs]]) 15:17, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

== Curator ==

Hi! I've noticed and appreciated your recent efforts on behalf of Wikiversity. Do you have any interest in becoming a [[Wikiversity:Curators|Wikiversity curator]]? It would give you additional tools to make some clean-up easier. I'd be happy to nominate/support you if you are interested. -- [[User:Dave Braunschweig|Dave Braunschweig]] ([[User talk:Dave Braunschweig|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dave Braunschweig|contribs]]) 17:11, 19 October 2016 (UTC)
:{{Ping|Dave Braunschweig}} I'd be delited and honored. I started editing here as soon as it was founded and I've always wanted to collaborate more on philosophy. If I had some more tools here, I think I'd be more active as well. Thanks for the invitation. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 17:16, 19 October 2016 (UTC)

::Thanks! And thanks for creating the nomination page. I was in the process, but you beat me to it. :-) -- [[User:Dave Braunschweig|Dave Braunschweig]] ([[User talk:Dave Braunschweig|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dave Braunschweig|contribs]]) 18:01, 19 October 2016 (UTC)

:::Congratulations! Let me know if you have any questions. -- [[User:Dave Braunschweig|Dave Braunschweig]] ([[User talk:Dave Braunschweig|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dave Braunschweig|contribs]]) 02:47, 21 October 2016 (UTC)
::::{{Ping|Dave Braunschweig}} Definitely. Thank you again. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 03:19, 21 October 2016 (UTC)

== Welcome ==

There's also {{tlx|welcomeip}}. Thanks! -- [[User:Dave Braunschweig|Dave Braunschweig]] ([[User talk:Dave Braunschweig|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dave Braunschweig|contribs]]) 00:25, 24 February 2017 (UTC)
:{{Ping|Dave Braunschweig}} Brilliant. Thanks. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 00:44, 24 February 2017 (UTC)

== Deletion request ==

Hey Justin,

I was wondering if you could delete [[Module:Color contrast‎]], a page I've created accidentally. I was switching between tabs with the intention of creating the page at Beta Wikiversity, and you know the rest. :) Thanks in advance.

Best,

[[User:Vito Genovese|{{font|color=#008000|'''Vito Genovese'''}}]] 23:10, 12 March 2017 (UTC)
:{{Ping|Vito Genovese}} No problem--accidents happen. Happy to help, Vito. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 23:13, 12 March 2017 (UTC)

== Do humans have free will? ==

Hi Koavf!

The Wikidebate [[Do humans have free will?]] appears to be well-developed and ready for learners! Would you like to have it announced on our Main Page News? --[[User:Marshallsumter|Marshallsumter]] ([[User talk:Marshallsumter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Marshallsumter|contribs]]) 16:12, 4 July 2017 (UTC)
:{{Ping|Marshallsumter}} It's certainly a good start. Go for it. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 16:14, 4 July 2017 (UTC)

== Does everything happen for a sufficient reason? ==

Hi Koavf!

[[Does everything happen for a sufficient reason?]] also appears well-developed! Would you like to have it announced on our Main Page News? --[[User:Marshallsumter|Marshallsumter]] ([[User talk:Marshallsumter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Marshallsumter|contribs]]) 16:32, 4 July 2017 (UTC)
:{{Ping|Marshallsumter}} Go for it. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 18:26, 4 July 2017 (UTC)

== New wikidebate syntax ==

Hi Justin! Just wanted to let you know that I made a new improvement to the software and syntax. It's now even cleaner and more compatible with the visual editor. Hope you like it, cheers! --[[User:Sophivorus|Felipe]] ([[User talk:Sophivorus|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Sophivorus|contribs]]) 23:58, 5 July 2017 (UTC)

== Learning bass guitar with Joseph Patrick Moore ==

Hi Koavf!

Your course [[Learning bass guitar with Joseph Patrick Moore]] appears well-developed and ready for learners! Would you like to have it announced on our Main Page News? --[[User:Marshallsumter|Marshallsumter]] ([[User talk:Marshallsumter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Marshallsumter|contribs]]) 00:18, 19 February 2018 (UTC)
:{{Ping|Marshallsumter}} Not yet, please. I'm still uploading videos and fleshing out the text portion. I'd be delighted for it to be featured soon, tho. I'll ping you when I'm done-ish. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 01:30, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

== User:Beogradbulevar ==

Most posts relating to boxing or chess are from globally banned user George Reeves Person. Typical attacks come when he gets off work between 2 and 5 p.m. CST, and occasionally later, particularly on Fridays or Saturdays. He uses public libraries for Internet access, and typically doesn't post after 9 p.m. CST. It's unfortunate, but we really have to watch who posts what in the mid-to-late afternoons and be vigilant in blocking the content and not welcoming the user. See [[Wikiversity:Community Review/Marshallsumter]] for the damage it causes. -- [[User:Dave Braunschweig|Dave Braunschweig]] ([[User talk:Dave Braunschweig|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dave Braunschweig|contribs]]) 14:25, 5 November 2019 (UTC)
:{{Ping|Dave Braunschweig}} Wow. Thanks. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 16:54, 5 November 2019 (UTC)

== CU ==

I closed the CU nomination due to the low number of recent additions to the discussion. It just seemed like we wouldn't meet the criteria in a reasonable time. Thanks for offering to help with this and perhaps we can try again in the future. We appreciate your contributions. --[[User:Mu301|mikeu]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Mu301|talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 19:45, 29 January 2020 (UTC)
:{{Ping|Mu301}} For sure. Thanks yourself. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 20:21, 29 January 2020 (UTC)

== history of covid in the usa ==

Hi {{PAGENAME}}

I was idly surfing the wsj and suddenly realized all articles I was looking at had a video posted right at the top.(example:https://www.wsj.com/articles/some-covid-19-patients-show-signs-of-heart-damage-months-later-11600866000). The video section is 8:06 minutes long and is a short version of the history of pandemic in the usa.

I don't know how to get the url of the video itself. Can you help? Thanks in advance, [[User:Ottawahitech|Ottawahitech]] ([[User talk:Ottawahitech|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Ottawahitech|contribs]]) 15:57, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
:{{Ping|Ottawahitech}} Load the page in your browser and use the networking console--you can usually get this to display by pressing F12. You'll find that this video is served up as a playlist of several bits with the URI https://oms.dowjoneson.com/b/ss/djglobal/1/JS-2.17.0/s04078897862906?AQB=1&amp;ndh=1&amp;pf=1&amp;t=2%2F10%2F2020%2013%3A6%3A8%201%20300&amp;mid=71630168209780702446627362471898499848&amp;ce=UTF-8&amp;pageName=WSJLive_Video_How%20Coronavirus%20Spread%20Across%20the%20U.S.%20to%20Reach%20200%2C000%20Deaths_372&amp;g=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.wsj.com%2Farticles%2Fsome-covid-19-patients-show-signs-of-heart-damage-months-later-11600866000&amp;c.&amp;a.&amp;media.&amp;friendlyName=How%20Coronavirus%20Spread%20Across%20the%20U.S.%20to%20Reach%20200%2C000%20Deaths&amp;length=486&amp;name=AE28508C-C7DF-406E-814F-69C8FAAD1A86&amp;playerName=Web&amp;channel=WSJ&amp;show=Feature%20Explainer&amp;originator=cmccall&amp;genre=WSJ_News_U.S.%20News&amp;digitalDate=original_2020-09-22%2011%3A58_current_2020-09-22%2011%3A58&amp;feed=video&amp;network=115&amp;format=user%20initiated&amp;streamType=video&amp;view=true&amp;vsid=160434036774097779839&amp;.media&amp;contentType=vod&amp;.a&amp;page.&amp;content.&amp;type=Article&amp;.content&amp;full.&amp;url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.wsj.com%2Farticles%2Fsome-covid-19-patients-show-signs-of-heart-damage-months-later-11600866000&amp;.full&amp;site=Online%20Journal&amp;.page&amp;video.&amp;player.&amp;type=Web&amp;technology=html%203.41.2.205&amp;.player&amp;keywords=CORONAVIRUS%20RESPONSE%7CCORONAVIRUS%20TESTING%7CCOVID-19%20TESTING%7CDANIELA%20HERNANDEZ%7CPANDEMIC%7CTESTING%20SITES&amp;base.&amp;url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.wsj.com%2Farticles%2Fsome-covid-19-patients-show-signs-of-heart-damage-months-later-11600866000&amp;.base&amp;.video&amp;article.&amp;id=SB11126288623532913915004586647794135594296&amp;author=Sarah%20Toy&amp;publish=2020-09-23%2013%3A00&amp;publish.&amp;orig=2020-09-23%2013%3A00&amp;.publish&amp;.article&amp;ad.&amp;blank.&amp;start=false&amp;.blank&amp;disabled=true&amp;catastrophic.&amp;blocker=false&amp;.catastrophic&amp;.ad&amp;.c&amp;pe=ms_s&amp;pev3=video&amp;s=1600x900&amp;c=24&amp;j=1.6&amp;v=N&amp;k=Y&amp;bw=781&amp;bh=776&amp;mcorgid=CB68E4BA55144CAA0A4C98A5%40AdobeOrg&amp;AQE=1 or somesuch (it may not be identical for you). If you open this in VLC Player, you can save playlists as videos. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 18:09, 2 November 2020 (UTC)

==Custodianship==
Welcome to en.wv custodianship [[User:Koavf]]. Thanks for helping. Sincerely, James -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 23:04, 8 September 2023 (UTC)

:Merci, James. I hope I'm an asset to the community. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 23:50, 8 September 2023 (UTC)

== Bowling article ==

Hey there Koavf! I've created that [[Bowling Fundamentals|bowling article]] we discussed at the Colloquium. Do you have any advice on how I can further improve it? [[User:Contributor 118,784|Contributor 118,784]] ([[User talk:Contributor 118,784|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Contributor 118,784|contribs]]) 01:20, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

:Nice. I don't have any particular feedback other than what I mentioned there. I'm pretty ignorant about bowling. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 02:26, 26 September 2023 (UTC)
::Fair, thank you! [[User:Contributor 118,784|Contributor 118,784]] ([[User talk:Contributor 118,784|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Contributor 118,784|contribs]]) 09:18, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

== RCA talkback (January 2024) ==

{{talkback|WV:RCA|User:50.118.222.66 has been flooding our abuse filter log with spam}} [[User:MathXplore|MathXplore]] ([[User talk:MathXplore|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/MathXplore|contribs]]) 02:31, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

== Invitation to discuss page deletion policy ==

A discussion that might interest you has been started at [[Wikiversity:Requests_for_Deletion#Wikiversity:Deletion_Convention_2024]]. -- [[User:Guy vandegrift|Guy vandegrift]] ([[User talk:Guy vandegrift|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Guy vandegrift|contribs]]) 17:54, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

== RCA talkback ==

{{tb|Wikiversity:Request_custodian_action#Induced_stem_cells_copyright_issues}} [[User:MathXplore|MathXplore]] ([[User talk:MathXplore|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/MathXplore|contribs]]) 02:02, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

== Report ==

Hello, I would like to report this user, who has a COI: [[Special:Contributions/Oluwadarasimi Morayo]]

Thank you. [[User:Ternera|Ternera]] ([[User talk:Ternera|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Ternera|contribs]]) 14:51, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

:Thanks. It's best to leave these at a board like [[Wikiversity:Request custodian action]], but this was obvious spam. Cheers. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 15:19, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

== Files ==
Hello! Thank you for deleting files once again!

You made a comment about &quot;all local uploads&quot;. 

Fair-use is not allowed on Commons so the 2,712 files in [[:Category:All non-free media]] can't go to Commons. But as I understand [[Wikiversity:Requests_for_Deletion#Deleting_ALL_non-free_uploads_by_User:Marshallsumter]] the files uploaded by Marshallsumter could be deleted. That would eliminate 1,126 files. Since [[Wikiversity:Uploading_files#Exemption_Doctrine_Policy]] allow fair use it would require a vote/discussion to change that. 

Young1lim uploads many pdf-files and as far as I know Commons generally do not like pdf-files. Except when it is scans of old books etc. So I do not think those files should go to Commons right now.

There are still many files in [[Special:UnusedFiles]]. Right now 1,422 but some are uploaded by Young1lim. But the latest deletion request ended with delete so I think there is concensus to delete files. But some were also found good and moved to Commons. So the question is if we need another discussion about the files or if someone (you?) could just go through the files when you have a little time and either move to Commons or delete. If you think we could make one final discussion about all the files and ask for a go to the &quot;any admin that want to can check the files and either move to Commons or delete&quot;. Then noone can come later and complain that you or another admin just deleted a file without warning.

If there are 40k files in total. Perhaps 22k are pdf uploaded by Young1lim. 3k are non-free. 1.5k are unused. That would leave around 13.5k free files in use. That is a lot of files to check. I do not think there are many users that are willing to spend much time checking those files. 

But it would help if no more free files are uploaded (except pdf). There is allready a text on the top of [[Special:Upload]] suggesting commons. But it could perhaps be made more clear. And perhaps some of the options on [[MediaWiki:Licenses]] could be removed. --[[User:MGA73|MGA73]] ([[User talk:MGA73|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/MGA73|contribs]]) 18:01, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

:Yeah, to be clear, I appreciate that sister projects like e.g. Wikibooks allow a lot of free-use files because they allow video game strategy guides and there is substantial value in screenshots or Wikipedia allows album covers and film posters as identifying media. I'm not proposing any change to policy and I accept that there are reasons for fair use, so I apologize for that sloppy wording. That said, I definitely think we should have minimal fair use if any at all.
:As for PDFs, there are plenty at Commons: I have uploaded dozens and dozens of books, scientific articles, etc. It's not a problem, but it's just not optimal for many kinds of files, such as maps or something.
:I'm happy to help and slog thru the uplaods if you start a conversation. Just ping me. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 18:49, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
:: Yes fair use have some benefits. But If we/someone is going to make a cleanup it could perhaps be a good idea to first have a discussion about it. So I will start a post about fair use on wikiversity.
:: And about unused files I will start a deletion discussion (again) just to be sure.
:: If you feel like deleting files you could kill the files uploaded by Marshallsumter. :-) --[[User:MGA73|MGA73]] ([[User talk:MGA73|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/MGA73|contribs]]) 09:25, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
::: I started a discussion at [[Wikiversity:Colloquium#Fair_use_on_Wikiversity]]. Lets see what happens. --[[User:MGA73|MGA73]] ([[User talk:MGA73|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/MGA73|contribs]]) 21:23, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
:::: With the files of Marshallsumter gone that really helped a lot! Lets see what everyone thinks about the rest of the files. It will probably take weeks the get enough comments. But thats okay. It is summer and vacation time and if the files have been around for years they can easily wait a little longer. --[[User:MGA73|MGA73]] ([[User talk:MGA73|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/MGA73|contribs]]) 19:20, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
Hello! Some files have been moved to Commons if you would like to have. Look 😊 --[[User:MGA73|MGA73]] ([[User talk:MGA73|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/MGA73|contribs]]) 19:35, 3 March 2025 (UTC)

:1,587&lt;2,712, that's for sure. I'll try to keep chipping away at these. Thanks for the reminder. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 20:06, 3 March 2025 (UTC)

== Revert? ==

Why did you revert this argument?  I wanted (humorously) to make the observation that the guilty party at the end of a suicide is dead but is the only one that can be punished.  Attempted and assisted suicide wasn't included.  [[Special:Contributions/176.0.152.191|176.0.152.191]] ([[User talk:176.0.152.191|discuss]]) 22:27, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

:It's not really a venue for hilarious jokes about killing. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 22:44, 15 September 2024 (UTC)
::but I remember there was really some law along that line. With a similar explanation. Some king (could be from a fairy tale, but I don't believe so) wanted to outlaw suicide and his advisers had this idea. The judge (or the king himself) would speak the verdict and justice was already done.  So the king was famous for his his fair and swift justice.  You see I don't remember too clearly,  therefore I wanted to compress the essence of this into an argument. I didn't think it was that hilarious, so sorry for injured sensitivity.  Now that you know what I wanted to do,  could you please formulate an accordingly compressed argument,  in the appropriate tone? [[Special:Contributions/176.0.152.191|176.0.152.191]] ([[User talk:176.0.152.191|discuss]]) 00:52, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
:::I think you can. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 00:56, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
::::I'm not a native speaker. And that you found it hilarious, where I targeted a slightly levied tone shows me that I can't really do it.  [[Special:Contributions/176.0.152.191|176.0.152.191]] ([[User talk:176.0.152.191|discuss]]) 01:05, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
:::::I believe in you. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 01:10, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

== Wrong import ==

Hi, template:Languages does not work properly and I think its because even you states that you have importated Module which this template use from BetaWikiversity, you actually imported it from Commons, so the template is than calling non-existent function subpates. Compare:

&lt;nowiki&gt;*&lt;/nowiki&gt;[[Module:Languages|en.wv module Languages]]

&lt;nowiki&gt;*&lt;/nowiki&gt;[[commons:Module:Languages]]

&lt;nowiki&gt;*&lt;/nowiki&gt;[[betawikiversity:Module:Languages|betaversity]]


So I dont know if removing incorect revisions and importing corect ones will fix it, but the error message is probably delivered because of this mismatch. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 13:25, 19 August 2025 (UTC)

:Weird, I thought I reverted that. Let me delete that rev. So sorry. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 14:10, 19 August 2025 (UTC)

== A barnstar for you! ==

{| style=&quot;border: 1px solid gray; background-color: #ffffff;&quot;
|rowspan=&quot;2&quot; valign=&quot;middle&quot; | [[File:Resilient Barnstar.png|100px]]
|rowspan=&quot;2&quot; |
|style=&quot;font-size: x-large; padding: 0; vertical-align: middle; height: 1.1em;&quot; | '''The Silver Barnstar'''
|-
|style=&quot;vertical-align: middle; border-top: 1px solid gray;&quot; |  Thanks for contributing to Wikiversity for a very long time. You are the best. —[[User:RailwayEnthusiast2025|&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Verdana; color:#008000; text-shadow:gray 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em;&quot;&gt;RailwayEnthusiast2025&lt;/span&gt;]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:RailwayEnthusiast2025|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#59a53f&quot;&gt;''talk with me!''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 19:55, 9 September 2025 (UTC)
|}
:How kind. I'm appreciate of your additions and ideas as well. Thanks so much. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 20:29, 9 September 2025 (UTC)

== Deleting all unused templates ==
You seem to have been deleting many templates with the summary &quot;unused template&quot;. One qualm I have with this is that, in general, deleting all unused templates is likely to lead to some revision histories (those that used the templates) becoming illegible. --[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] ([[User talk:Dan Polansky|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dan Polansky|contribs]]) 05:21, 19 September 2025 (UTC)

:Yeah, maybe. Probably not a big deal, tho. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 05:22, 19 September 2025 (UTC)
:: In the English Wikiversity, that is plausible enough. On the other hand, in the English Wiktionary, deleting the once widely used [[wikt: T: term]] as unused would cause massive harm as for legibility, for no appreciable benefit. --[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] ([[User talk:Dan Polansky|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dan Polansky|contribs]]) 05:24, 19 September 2025 (UTC)
:::Any examples that really matter can be undeleted or something if really necessary. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 05:25, 19 September 2025 (UTC)
:::: I have not been long enough around the English Wikiversity to know which of the many (over 100?) deleted templates were once widely used.
:::: Background: In the English Wiktionary, I noticed that someone made the thesarus revision histories completely illegible. There is too much disregard for legibility of revision histories going around. --[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] ([[User talk:Dan Polansky|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dan Polansky|contribs]]) 05:33, 19 September 2025 (UTC)
:::::It is a concern of some regard, granted. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 05:44, 19 September 2025 (UTC)
::::Hi Koavf; as follow-up for this issue, I wanted to mention the [[Template:Convert links]]. This is far from being unused, since it's a fundamental tool in importing Wikipedia articles to Wikiversity, e.g. for all the Wikijournals - see step 4 of [[WikiJournal_User_Group/Editorial_guidelines#Importing_from_Wikipedia]]. 
::::I just bumped into this issue myself, and I presume it will be relevant for several other users in the future. As far as I know, there are no other ways to convert those links (beside doing it manually one by one). Could you therefore please undelete that template? [[User:Francesco Cattafi|Francesco Cattafi]] ([[User talk:Francesco Cattafi|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Francesco Cattafi|contribs]]) 07:56, 22 September 2025 (UTC)
:::::Of course. My apologies for causing problems. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 08:01, 22 September 2025 (UTC)
::::::Perfect, thanks a lot! [[User:Francesco Cattafi|Francesco Cattafi]] ([[User talk:Francesco Cattafi|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Francesco Cattafi|contribs]]) 08:04, 22 September 2025 (UTC)

I was not aware, that unused templates can be deleted without any notice. I think nothing (except obvious spam and vandalism) should be deleted without warning and time to respond.&lt;br&gt;
[[Wikiversity:Requests_for_Deletion#Please_restore_my_templates|Please restore 61 of them.]] --[[User:Watchduck|Watchduck]] &lt;small&gt;([[User talk:Watchduck|quack]])&lt;/small&gt; 15:00, 7 October 2025 (UTC)
:I undeleted two templates that you asked for above, but one of them is [[Template:Studies of Euler diagrams/tamino NP table]], which is just unused. Why do these need to be here? —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 15:01, 7 October 2025 (UTC)

== Restoring Template:Copyrighted ==
Can you please restore [[:Template:Copyrighted]]? It is clear why this template would be unused: it is only used when some page is tagged as a possible copyright violation.

I guess there should be a way to tag templates as unused-but-needed, and this would be one of then. These would then be excluded from a clean-up action like yours.

On the other hand, the template is linked from [[:Wikiversity:Copyright issues]], so while it is perhaps unused in the sense of ''not invoked'', it is ''linked to''. And a clean-up should ideally not delete pages that are linked to, or consider them on a careful case-to-case basis, no? --[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] ([[User talk:Dan Polansky|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dan Polansky|contribs]]) 04:06, 8 October 2025 (UTC)

:{{Done}} and agreed that if they have links that aren't from an old talk archive or a userspace or something more trivial, then there should at least be some appropriate action to not leave a redlink. The goal was to go back over those reports the next week or two once they've refreshed to also see wanted templates or wanted pages and try to clear those, so that two-pass system &lt;em&gt;should&lt;/em&gt; catch errors like this, but not always. Thanks. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 16:46, 8 October 2025 (UTC)

== Manual numbering ==
My use of manual numbering in the discussion that you modified (RFD) was intentional. One can find documents using such an approach, I think. I would therefore prefer that you leave it as is next time. I am not going to revert it this time; it's not really a big deal. And thank you for correcting my misspeling of suspition to suspicion; my being a non-native speaker showed here. --[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] ([[User talk:Dan Polansky|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dan Polansky|contribs]]) 05:13, 9 October 2025 (UTC)

:Good deal. Thanks. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 05:15, 9 October 2025 (UTC)

== Draft namespace move ==

Hello Justin,
Do you think it is alright to move [[User:RailwayEnthusiast2025/Basic Scratch Coding]] and subpages to Draft namespace&lt;s&gt;.&lt;/s&gt;? Because I &lt;s&gt;H&lt;/s&gt;haven't fully completed it and would appreciate it if other contributors in the community would like to help out.
Thanks,
RE
—[[User:RailwayEnthusiast2025|&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Verdana; color:#008000; text-shadow:gray 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em;&quot;&gt;RailwayEnthusiast2025&lt;/span&gt;]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:RailwayEnthusiast2025|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#59a53f&quot;&gt;''talk with me!''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 18:27, 26 October 2025 (UTC)

:I certainly think so, but honestly, I think the draft namespace is kind of a joke anyway. But I totally support you doing it. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 20:39, 26 October 2025 (UTC)

== Article Info - Related item ==

In the Lints was [[:User:Octfx/sandbox2]].

This was throwing a stripped Small , which I can't currently trace, Suggesting the earlier fix whilst mostly stable, has a very specfic interaction. Perhaps you can take a look and resolve this for robustness? [[User:ShakespeareFan00|ShakespeareFan00]] ([[User talk:ShakespeareFan00|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ShakespeareFan00|contribs]]) 23:33, 31 October 2025 (UTC)

:Diagnosing it would be optimal, but to resolve the issue, I just [https://en.wikiversity.org/w/index.php?title=User%3AOctfx%2Fsandbox2&amp;diff=2765037&amp;oldid=2425963 commented it out]. The page hasn't been edited in years, nor has that editor edited in years, so I just don't have the bandwidth to investigate. :/ —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 23:39, 31 October 2025 (UTC)

== Possible copyvio ==
Can you please look at [[User:Harold Foppele/sandbox-2]] to see whether there is a copyvio, and if there is one, delete the page? --[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] ([[User talk:Dan Polansky|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dan Polansky|contribs]]) 18:45, 6 November 2025 (UTC)

:@[[User:Koavf|Koavf]] Since you are a custodian, can you please put a stop to this? To me it seems like a personal vendetta that should not belong here. As for the page [[User:Harold Foppele/sandbox-2]] i asked [[user:Jtneill|Jtneill]] for advice some 12 hours ago. Since he is in Australia there is minimum a 12 hour delay in response. Would you maybe willing to help me? Kind regards, [[User:Harold Foppele|Harold Foppele]] ([[User talk:Harold Foppele|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Harold Foppele|contribs]]) 18:58, 6 November 2025 (UTC)
::I don't know what the deal is between you and Dan, but I saw the earlier post he made to the curator's noticeboard and haven't had time to investigate. Since it seems that the two of you have some kind of friction, it may be best for you two to just generally avoid interaction in the immediate term. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 23:03, 6 November 2025 (UTC)
:This [https://archive.org/details/Caltech-ES23.5.1960/page/2/mode/2up was published in the United States with a copyright notice, all rights reserved], so if it's in the public domain is a question of [[:c:Commons:Copyright rules by territory/United States|if the registration was renewed in a timely manner]]. Unfortunately, there is no single database of all renewals, so we can't know for sure if it &lt;em&gt;wasn't/t&lt;/em&gt; renewed. We should probably err on the side of assuming that it's a copyright violation. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 23:02, 6 November 2025 (UTC)
::I made a request, just to make sure to:: cmgworldwide.com to obtain a license to use it in Wikiversity. As it looks for now i can get the license and will know that end next week. Thanks [[User:Harold Foppele|Harold Foppele]] ([[User talk:Harold Foppele|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Harold Foppele|contribs]]) 23:23, 6 November 2025 (UTC)
:::I am going to delete it for now. It can be undeleted as necessary. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 07:49, 7 November 2025 (UTC)
::::👍 [[User:Harold Foppele|Harold Foppele]] ([[User talk:Harold Foppele|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Harold Foppele|contribs]]) 09:07, 7 November 2025 (UTC)

== Chess by Wikiversitans ==

I made a short setup for the page [[Chess/Play with other Wikiversitans]]. Is that the way you would like it to go? Do you by anychance play chess yoursef? [[User:Harold Foppele|Harold Foppele]] ([[User talk:Harold Foppele|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Harold Foppele|contribs]]) 19:21, 6 November 2025 (UTC)

:Great questions. I made that page years ago and [[User:Mu301]] erroneously deleted it. I restored the old revs. As for how it should look, it's all wide open, so I have no objections. I think the notion of somehow playing here on site is actually intriguing. Maybe we could make that work... —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 23:05, 6 November 2025 (UTC)
::Help is needed from a specialist in the heart of Wiki. If you look at or know Lichess.org its very complex. However starting a Wikiversitans team there is a piece of cake. Just how do we invite our &quot;members&quot; here? Ideas welcome :) [[User:Harold Foppele|Harold Foppele]] ([[User talk:Harold Foppele|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Harold Foppele|contribs]]) 23:49, 6 November 2025 (UTC)
:::Would love to play chess with you. Find me at [[Chess/Play with other Wikiversitans]] in Lichess.org or Chess.com. Leave a message or email if you want to play. Cheers [[User:Harold Foppele|Harold Foppele]] ([[User talk:Harold Foppele|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Harold Foppele|contribs]]) 11:46, 7 November 2025 (UTC)
::::Thanks. I saw your invite in my inbox, but I'm a little distracted now and recently started a new job, so I didn't want to agree until I had time to actually play. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 11:48, 7 November 2025 (UTC)
:::::No problem. just say &quot;When&quot; :) [[User:Harold Foppele|Harold Foppele]] ([[User talk:Harold Foppele|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Harold Foppele|contribs]]) 11:51, 7 November 2025 (UTC)
::::::[[Chess/Board Configurations]] I think you'll like it. [[User:Harold Foppele|Harold Foppele]] ([[User talk:Harold Foppele|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Harold Foppele|contribs]]) 13:56, 7 November 2025 (UTC)
:::::::There is also a Wikiversity chess team &lt;span style=&quot;background-color: #aaffaa;&quot;&gt;created at [https://lichess.org/team/wikiversity Lichess.org].&lt;/span&gt; [[User:Harold Foppele|Harold Foppele]] ([[User talk:Harold Foppele|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Harold Foppele|contribs]]) 12:58, 8 November 2025 (UTC)
::::::::Oh dip. Thanks for the heads up. I'm glad to see you taking initiative about this. If only I had more time myself. :/ —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 22:22, 8 November 2025 (UTC)

== Importing template ==

{{Ping|Koavf}} I would like to change the [[Template:Quantum mechanics]] to look more like [[W:Template:Quantum mechanics]] since the template at WV has almost no contence I could edit that, but better ask you instead of doing it. Btw we should play chess sometime :) Cheers [[User:Harold Foppele|Harold Foppele]] ([[User talk:Harold Foppele|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Harold Foppele|contribs]]) 10:54, 14 November 2025 (UTC)

== Night mode unaware lint.. ==

Thanks for the edits to self. 

Do you plan to proceed on updating other high-use templates? like {{tl|information}}, and {{tl|article info}}, where I should ideally have resolved the Night mode unaware lint as the same time as the other fixes in the sandbox version you swapped in :(. 
[[User:ShakespeareFan00|ShakespeareFan00]] ([[User talk:ShakespeareFan00|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ShakespeareFan00|contribs]]) 08:42, 18 November 2025 (UTC)

Please also check my contributions on talk pages for {{tl|edit protected}} requests. 
[[User:ShakespeareFan00|ShakespeareFan00]] ([[User talk:ShakespeareFan00|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ShakespeareFan00|contribs]]) 08:42, 18 November 2025 (UTC)

:In principle, yes, I do. When will I find the time??? Note that a lot of those edit request were up for months or a year+. :/ —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 08:43, 18 November 2025 (UTC)

: An obvious group to update would be {{tl|Projectbox}} and {{tl|Robelbox}} families, although I would strongly suggest migrating these to use template styles over the current inline approach. [[User:ShakespeareFan00|ShakespeareFan00]] ([[User talk:ShakespeareFan00|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ShakespeareFan00|contribs]]) 08:49, 18 November 2025 (UTC)
::These are good ideas, but I just don't know when I'll have time to implement them. :/ —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 12:40, 19 November 2025 (UTC)

== Wikidebate form ==

Hi, hope you're doing good! I just noticed some months ago you deleted [[Template:Form/wikidebate]]. The template was indeed unused (and probably undocumented too) but it did serve a purpose, namely to be ''substituted'' when creating a new wikidebate via [[Wikidebate/New]]. As a consequence, [[Is hate is an ineffective and or selfish emotion?|this happened]] and could happen again. Could you restore it, please? If you can do that, I'll document it properly and tag it with &lt;nowiki&gt;__EXPECTUNUSEDTEMPLATE__&lt;/nowiki&gt; to avoid further confusion. Thanks! [[User:Sophivorus|Sophivorus]] ([[User talk:Sophivorus|discusión]] • [[Special:Contributions/Sophivorus|contribs.]]) 14:39, 23 December 2025 (UTC)

:Of course. Thanks for your understanding. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 17:34, 23 December 2025 (UTC)

== [[:Category:Wikiversity fully protected templates]] ==

I am creating semi/full protection categories for various namespace pages, so can you undelete [[:Category:Wikiversity fully protected templates]]? Thanks. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 16:57, 14 April 2026 (UTC)

:{{done}} —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 17:09, 14 April 2026 (UTC)

== Different way to display talk pages for easier reading? ==

On [[Wikiversity:Colloquium]] when many people reply to the same thing all their posts are jumbled together into one big paragraph.

Is this a well known problem? Is there a gadget I could use/activate to make readability/accessibility greater on Wikiversity or are we still working on that?

Can I do anything obvious in order to help in this regard? ie. manually editing talk pages and adding proper wikitext or edit my own common.js? With the recent activation of a javascript that got up on the news...is there a way I can safely test my own common.js code that I ask an LLM to generate for me? I have a Qubes OS computer where I have access to disposable VMs which I can also turn off the internet on so even if the code goes haywire it won't affect my computer or the internet connection. [[User:ThinkingScience|ThinkingScience]] ([[User talk:ThinkingScience|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ThinkingScience|contribs]]) 11:45, 27 April 2026 (UTC)
:It's kind of surprising that you would write that, since this wiki has CSS with pretty bold background colors to differentiate comments based on how they are indented. Which skin are you using? —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 14:23, 27 April 2026 (UTC)

== Need of IAs ==

I am reading at [[Wikiversity:Interface administrators]], that &quot;Wikiversity does not have a need for permanent or long term interface administrators&quot;. So why you think otherwice? What task should be done? [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 08:12, 10 May 2026 (UTC)</text>
      <sha1>6089qkmwxu0me805u3yu0qnuhyrwc63</sha1>
    </revision>
  </page>
  <page>
    <title>Wikiversity:Bureaucratship</title>
    <ns>4</ns>
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      <contributor>
        <username>Jtneill</username>
        <id>10242</id>
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      <text bytes="4996" sha1="8xfk2b9z05tpbwz37yfza9y0pkayenv" xml:space="preserve">{{shortcut|WV:B|WV:BUR|WV:CRAT|WV:BCRAT}}
{{Proposed policy}}
'''Bureaucrats''' are part of [[Wikiversity]]'s [[Wikiversity:Support staff|support staff]]. Bureaucrats are users with the ability to promote other users to [[Wikiversity:Custodianship|custodian]] or bureaucrat status, and grant or revoke [[Wikiversity:Bots|bot]] status and [[Wikiversity:Interface administrators|interface admin]] status.

== A bureaucrat's role ==
First and foremost, bureaucrats must be well-trusted members of the community. They must have a deep understanding of [[Wikiversity:Mission|Wikiversity's mission]] and processes, and must be excellent judges of [[Wikiversity:Consensus|consensus]]. They must demonstrate through their extensive contributions to Wikiversity that they are not rash in decision-making, nor uncivil to others, even those whom they are in disagreement with. They must also have the ability and willingness to thoroughly explain decisions that they make, as well as to admit fault, where appropriate.

Bureaucrats ''do not'' have the right to use their status to appropriate any undue influence in community discussions - their participation in such activities is on a par with any other community member, insofar as is possible. Whatever influence they may have should be akin to that of any other community member, according to the weight of their opinions or their previous participation in the project.

Bureaucrats are expected to follow the same policy as [[Wikiversity:Custodianship|custodians]].

== A bureaucrat's duties ==
Bureaucrats can expand the set of ''groups'' that a user belongs to by adding a user to the ''bot'', ''interface administrator'', ''custodian'', or ''bureaucrat'' group (via [[Special:UserRights]] - [[Special:Log/rights]]). Bureaucrats act as the final interpreter of consensus with respect to candidacies for user group changes. Bureaucrats are charged with the responsibility of declaring at an appropriate time, whether a [[WV:CC|custodian]], bureaucrat, [[Wikiversity:Bots|bot]], or [[Wikiversity:Interface administrators|interface administrator]] candidate is granted a user group change or otherwise. Bureaucrats should respect the Wikiversity community's decision on these particular matters. This management process is intended to streamline processing of requests for user group changes, and to minimize ambiguity introduced to the process when non-bureaucrats intervene.

Bureaucrats should be careful about making mistakes in adding user rights because only the ''bot'' and ''interface administrator'' groups can be removed by bureaucrats. To remove ''custodian'' or ''bureaucrat'' rights requires a [[m:Stewards|steward]] to undo the change.

== How can I question a bureaucrat's decision? ==
You can ask on a bureaucrat's [[Help:User talk page|user talk page]], request [[Wikiversity:Custodian feedback|feedback]] from other custodians and bureaucrats, or start a [[Wikiversity:Community Review|community review]]. The order is important, it reflects the order in which you should attempt to resolve a problem.

== How are bureaucrats created? ==
Bureaucrats can be nominated at [[Wikiversity:Candidates for Custodianship]] just like with custodians. However, no mentor is required. Nominations should be [[Wikiversity:Announcements|announced]] ([[MediaWiki:Sitenotice|site wide]]), and kept open for a period of '''at least two weeks''' before being acted upon. There needs to be '''a very strong majority''' of users in support of the decision to add or remove a candidate from the ''bureaucrat'' group.

== How are bureaucrats removed? ==
There are three ways:
# A bureaucrat can request removal of their tools from [[m:Steward requests/Permissions|stewards]].
# Requests for bureaucrat removal by others (unless it's an emergency) should first go through the process of talk page discussion, [[Wikiversity:Custodian feedback|custodian feedback request]], and [[Wikiversity:Community Review|community review]]. The final act would be a [[m:Steward requests/Permissions|request to stewards]] to remove the ''bureaucrat'' group from a user.
# The maximum time period of inactivity &lt;u&gt;without community review&lt;/u&gt; for holders of advanced administrative rights is two years per the [[:meta:Category:Global policies|global policy]] described at [[meta:Admin activity review|Admin activity review]]. After that time, a [[meta:Stewards|steward]] will remove the rights.

==See also==
;Wikiversity
* [[Wikiversity:Curators]]
* [[Wikiversity:Custodianship]]
* [[Special:ListUsers/bureaucrat|List of current Wikiversity bureaucrats]]
* [[Wikiversity:Colloquium/archives/December 2006#Bureaucrats]]

;Sister wikis
* [[w:Wikipedia:Bureaucrats|Wikipedia:Bureaucrats]]
* [[meta:Bureaucrat|Meta:Bureaucrat]]
* [[b:Wikibooks:Administrators|Wikibooks:Administrators]]
* [[wikinews:Wikinews:Administrators|Wikinews:Administrators]]

{{Official policies}}
{{Proposed policies}}

[[Category:Wikiversity bureaucratship| ]]
[[de:Wikiversity:Pedelle#Bürokraten]]</text>
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[[File:Wikiversity Bureaucrat.svg|right|130px|link=]]

'''Bureaucrats''' are part of [[Wikiversity]]'s [[Wikiversity:Support staff|support staff]]. Bureaucrats are users with the ability to promote other users to [[Wikiversity:Custodianship|custodian]] or bureaucrat status, and grant or revoke [[Wikiversity:Bots|bot]] status and [[Wikiversity:Interface administrators|interface admin]] status.

== A bureaucrat's role ==
First and foremost, bureaucrats must be well-trusted members of the community. They must have a deep understanding of [[Wikiversity:Mission|Wikiversity's mission]] and processes, and must be excellent judges of [[Wikiversity:Consensus|consensus]]. They must demonstrate through their extensive contributions to Wikiversity that they are not rash in decision-making, nor uncivil to others, even those whom they are in disagreement with. They must also have the ability and willingness to thoroughly explain decisions that they make, as well as to admit fault, where appropriate.

Bureaucrats ''do not'' have the right to use their status to appropriate any undue influence in community discussions - their participation in such activities is on a par with any other community member, insofar as is possible. Whatever influence they may have should be akin to that of any other community member, according to the weight of their opinions or their previous participation in the project.

Bureaucrats are expected to follow the same policy as [[Wikiversity:Custodianship|custodians]].

== A bureaucrat's duties ==
Bureaucrats can expand the set of ''groups'' that a user belongs to by adding a user to the ''bot'', ''interface administrator'', ''custodian'', or ''bureaucrat'' group (via [[Special:UserRights]] - [[Special:Log/rights]]). Bureaucrats act as the final interpreter of consensus with respect to candidacies for user group changes. Bureaucrats are charged with the responsibility of declaring at an appropriate time, whether a [[WV:CC|custodian]], bureaucrat, [[Wikiversity:Bots|bot]], or [[Wikiversity:Interface administrators|interface administrator]] candidate is granted a user group change or otherwise. Bureaucrats should respect the Wikiversity community's decision on these particular matters. This management process is intended to streamline processing of requests for user group changes, and to minimize ambiguity introduced to the process when non-bureaucrats intervene.

Bureaucrats should be careful about making mistakes in adding user rights because only the ''bot'' and ''interface administrator'' groups can be removed by bureaucrats. To remove ''custodian'' or ''bureaucrat'' rights requires a [[m:Stewards|steward]] to undo the change.

== How can I question a bureaucrat's decision? ==
You can ask on a bureaucrat's [[Help:User talk page|user talk page]], request [[Wikiversity:Custodian feedback|feedback]] from other custodians and bureaucrats, or start a [[Wikiversity:Community Review|community review]]. The order is important, it reflects the order in which you should attempt to resolve a problem.

== How are bureaucrats created? ==
Bureaucrats can be nominated at [[Wikiversity:Candidates for Custodianship]] just like with custodians. However, no mentor is required. Nominations should be [[Wikiversity:Announcements|announced]] ([[MediaWiki:Sitenotice|site wide]]), and kept open for a period of '''at least two weeks''' before being acted upon. There needs to be '''a very strong majority''' of users in support of the decision to add or remove a candidate from the ''bureaucrat'' group.

== How are bureaucrats removed? ==
There are three ways:
# A bureaucrat can request removal of their tools from [[m:Steward requests/Permissions|stewards]].
# Requests for bureaucrat removal by others (unless it's an emergency) should first go through the process of talk page discussion, [[Wikiversity:Custodian feedback|custodian feedback request]], and [[Wikiversity:Community Review|community review]]. The final act would be a [[m:Steward requests/Permissions|request to stewards]] to remove the ''bureaucrat'' group from a user.
# The maximum time period of inactivity &lt;u&gt;without community review&lt;/u&gt; for holders of advanced administrative rights is two years per the [[:meta:Category:Global policies|global policy]] described at [[meta:Admin activity review|Admin activity review]]. After that time, a [[meta:Stewards|steward]] will remove the rights.

==See also==
;Wikiversity
* [[Wikiversity:Curators]]
* [[Wikiversity:Custodianship]]
* [[Special:ListUsers/bureaucrat|List of current Wikiversity bureaucrats]]
* [[Wikiversity:Colloquium/archives/December 2006#Bureaucrats]]

;Sister wikis
* [[w:Wikipedia:Bureaucrats|Wikipedia:Bureaucrats]]
* [[meta:Bureaucrat|Meta:Bureaucrat]]
* [[b:Wikibooks:Administrators|Wikibooks:Administrators]]
* [[wikinews:Wikinews:Administrators|Wikinews:Administrators]]

{{Official policies}}
{{Proposed policies}}

[[Category:Wikiversity bureaucratship| ]]
[[de:Wikiversity:Pedelle#Bürokraten]]</text>
      <sha1>tj4bhofswgbkjmc5ssdydw8xywlbkwc</sha1>
    </revision>
    <revision>
      <id>2808121</id>
      <parentid>2808060</parentid>
      <timestamp>2026-05-10T03:16:30Z</timestamp>
      <contributor>
        <username>Jtneill</username>
        <id>10242</id>
      </contributor>
      <comment>/* A bureaucrat's role */ + Curators</comment>
      <origin>2808121</origin>
      <model>wikitext</model>
      <format>text/x-wiki</format>
      <text bytes="5071" sha1="6mf5t184553dis33fhhfkcrimdgfjea" xml:space="preserve">{{proposal|WV:B|WV:BUR|WV:CRAT|WV:BCRAT}}
[[File:Wikiversity Bureaucrat.svg|right|130px|link=]]

'''Bureaucrats''' are part of [[Wikiversity]]'s [[Wikiversity:Support staff|support staff]]. Bureaucrats are users with the ability to promote other users to [[Wikiversity:Custodianship|custodian]] or bureaucrat status, and grant or revoke [[Wikiversity:Bots|bot]] status and [[Wikiversity:Interface administrators|interface admin]] status.

== A bureaucrat's role ==
First and foremost, bureaucrats must be well-trusted members of the community. They must have a deep understanding of [[Wikiversity:Mission|Wikiversity's mission]] and processes, and must be excellent judges of [[Wikiversity:Consensus|consensus]]. They must demonstrate through their extensive contributions to Wikiversity that they are not rash in decision-making, nor uncivil to others, even those whom they are in disagreement with. They must also have the ability and willingness to thoroughly explain decisions that they make, as well as to admit fault, where appropriate.

Bureaucrats ''do not'' have the right to use their status to appropriate any undue influence in community discussions - their participation in such activities is on a par with any other community member, insofar as is possible. Whatever influence they may have should be akin to that of any other community member, according to the weight of their opinions or their previous participation in the project.

Bureaucrats are expected to follow the same policies as [[Wikiversity:Curators|curators]] and [[Wikiversity:Custodianship|custodians]].

== A bureaucrat's duties ==
Bureaucrats can expand the set of ''groups'' that a user belongs to by adding a user to the ''bot'', ''interface administrator'', ''custodian'', or ''bureaucrat'' group (via [[Special:UserRights]] - [[Special:Log/rights]]). Bureaucrats act as the final interpreter of consensus with respect to candidacies for user group changes. Bureaucrats are charged with the responsibility of declaring at an appropriate time, whether a [[WV:CC|custodian]], bureaucrat, [[Wikiversity:Bots|bot]], or [[Wikiversity:Interface administrators|interface administrator]] candidate is granted a user group change or otherwise. Bureaucrats should respect the Wikiversity community's decision on these particular matters. This management process is intended to streamline processing of requests for user group changes, and to minimize ambiguity introduced to the process when non-bureaucrats intervene.

Bureaucrats should be careful about making mistakes in adding user rights because only the ''bot'' and ''interface administrator'' groups can be removed by bureaucrats. To remove ''custodian'' or ''bureaucrat'' rights requires a [[m:Stewards|steward]] to undo the change.

== How can I question a bureaucrat's decision? ==
You can ask on a bureaucrat's [[Help:User talk page|user talk page]], request [[Wikiversity:Custodian feedback|feedback]] from other custodians and bureaucrats, or start a [[Wikiversity:Community Review|community review]]. The order is important, it reflects the order in which you should attempt to resolve a problem.

== How are bureaucrats created? ==
Bureaucrats can be nominated at [[Wikiversity:Candidates for Custodianship]] just like with custodians. However, no mentor is required. Nominations should be [[Wikiversity:Announcements|announced]] ([[MediaWiki:Sitenotice|site wide]]), and kept open for a period of '''at least two weeks''' before being acted upon. There needs to be '''a very strong majority''' of users in support of the decision to add or remove a candidate from the ''bureaucrat'' group.

== How are bureaucrats removed? ==
There are three ways:
# A bureaucrat can request removal of their tools from [[m:Steward requests/Permissions|stewards]].
# Requests for bureaucrat removal by others (unless it's an emergency) should first go through the process of talk page discussion, [[Wikiversity:Custodian feedback|custodian feedback request]], and [[Wikiversity:Community Review|community review]]. The final act would be a [[m:Steward requests/Permissions|request to stewards]] to remove the ''bureaucrat'' group from a user.
# The maximum time period of inactivity &lt;u&gt;without community review&lt;/u&gt; for holders of advanced administrative rights is two years per the [[:meta:Category:Global policies|global policy]] described at [[meta:Admin activity review|Admin activity review]]. After that time, a [[meta:Stewards|steward]] will remove the rights.

==See also==
;Wikiversity
* [[Wikiversity:Curators]]
* [[Wikiversity:Custodianship]]
* [[Special:ListUsers/bureaucrat|List of current Wikiversity bureaucrats]]
* [[Wikiversity:Colloquium/archives/December 2006#Bureaucrats]]

;Sister wikis
* [[w:Wikipedia:Bureaucrats|Wikipedia:Bureaucrats]]
* [[meta:Bureaucrat|Meta:Bureaucrat]]
* [[b:Wikibooks:Administrators|Wikibooks:Administrators]]
* [[wikinews:Wikinews:Administrators|Wikinews:Administrators]]

{{Official policies}}
{{Proposed policies}}

[[Category:Wikiversity bureaucratship| ]]
[[de:Wikiversity:Pedelle#Bürokraten]]</text>
      <sha1>6mf5t184553dis33fhhfkcrimdgfjea</sha1>
    </revision>
    <revision>
      <id>2808122</id>
      <parentid>2808121</parentid>
      <timestamp>2026-05-10T03:18:03Z</timestamp>
      <contributor>
        <username>Jtneill</username>
        <id>10242</id>
      </contributor>
      <comment>/* How are bureaucrats created? */ + [[Wikiversity:Candidates for Bureaucratship]]</comment>
      <origin>2808122</origin>
      <model>wikitext</model>
      <format>text/x-wiki</format>
      <text bytes="5046" sha1="ouan91j30v1uygiginp1cn6kobszojy" xml:space="preserve">{{proposal|WV:B|WV:BUR|WV:CRAT|WV:BCRAT}}
[[File:Wikiversity Bureaucrat.svg|right|130px|link=]]

'''Bureaucrats''' are part of [[Wikiversity]]'s [[Wikiversity:Support staff|support staff]]. Bureaucrats are users with the ability to promote other users to [[Wikiversity:Custodianship|custodian]] or bureaucrat status, and grant or revoke [[Wikiversity:Bots|bot]] status and [[Wikiversity:Interface administrators|interface admin]] status.

== A bureaucrat's role ==
First and foremost, bureaucrats must be well-trusted members of the community. They must have a deep understanding of [[Wikiversity:Mission|Wikiversity's mission]] and processes, and must be excellent judges of [[Wikiversity:Consensus|consensus]]. They must demonstrate through their extensive contributions to Wikiversity that they are not rash in decision-making, nor uncivil to others, even those whom they are in disagreement with. They must also have the ability and willingness to thoroughly explain decisions that they make, as well as to admit fault, where appropriate.

Bureaucrats ''do not'' have the right to use their status to appropriate any undue influence in community discussions - their participation in such activities is on a par with any other community member, insofar as is possible. Whatever influence they may have should be akin to that of any other community member, according to the weight of their opinions or their previous participation in the project.

Bureaucrats are expected to follow the same policies as [[Wikiversity:Curators|curators]] and [[Wikiversity:Custodianship|custodians]].

== A bureaucrat's duties ==
Bureaucrats can expand the set of ''groups'' that a user belongs to by adding a user to the ''bot'', ''interface administrator'', ''custodian'', or ''bureaucrat'' group (via [[Special:UserRights]] - [[Special:Log/rights]]). Bureaucrats act as the final interpreter of consensus with respect to candidacies for user group changes. Bureaucrats are charged with the responsibility of declaring at an appropriate time, whether a [[WV:CC|custodian]], bureaucrat, [[Wikiversity:Bots|bot]], or [[Wikiversity:Interface administrators|interface administrator]] candidate is granted a user group change or otherwise. Bureaucrats should respect the Wikiversity community's decision on these particular matters. This management process is intended to streamline processing of requests for user group changes, and to minimize ambiguity introduced to the process when non-bureaucrats intervene.

Bureaucrats should be careful about making mistakes in adding user rights because only the ''bot'' and ''interface administrator'' groups can be removed by bureaucrats. To remove ''custodian'' or ''bureaucrat'' rights requires a [[m:Stewards|steward]] to undo the change.

== How can I question a bureaucrat's decision? ==
You can ask on a bureaucrat's [[Help:User talk page|user talk page]], request [[Wikiversity:Custodian feedback|feedback]] from other custodians and bureaucrats, or start a [[Wikiversity:Community Review|community review]]. The order is important, it reflects the order in which you should attempt to resolve a problem.

== How are bureaucrats created? ==
Bureaucrats can be nominated at [[Wikiversity:Candidates for Bureaucratship]]. However, no mentor is required. Nominations should be [[Wikiversity:Announcements|announced]] ([[MediaWiki:Sitenotice|site wide]]), and kept open for a period of '''at least two weeks''' before being acted upon. There needs to be '''a very strong majority''' of users in support of the decision to add or remove a candidate from the ''bureaucrat'' group.

== How are bureaucrats removed? ==
There are three ways:
# A bureaucrat can request removal of their tools from [[m:Steward requests/Permissions|stewards]].
# Requests for bureaucrat removal by others (unless it's an emergency) should first go through the process of talk page discussion, [[Wikiversity:Custodian feedback|custodian feedback request]], and [[Wikiversity:Community Review|community review]]. The final act would be a [[m:Steward requests/Permissions|request to stewards]] to remove the ''bureaucrat'' group from a user.
# The maximum time period of inactivity &lt;u&gt;without community review&lt;/u&gt; for holders of advanced administrative rights is two years per the [[:meta:Category:Global policies|global policy]] described at [[meta:Admin activity review|Admin activity review]]. After that time, a [[meta:Stewards|steward]] will remove the rights.

==See also==
;Wikiversity
* [[Wikiversity:Curators]]
* [[Wikiversity:Custodianship]]
* [[Special:ListUsers/bureaucrat|List of current Wikiversity bureaucrats]]
* [[Wikiversity:Colloquium/archives/December 2006#Bureaucrats]]

;Sister wikis
* [[w:Wikipedia:Bureaucrats|Wikipedia:Bureaucrats]]
* [[meta:Bureaucrat|Meta:Bureaucrat]]
* [[b:Wikibooks:Administrators|Wikibooks:Administrators]]
* [[wikinews:Wikinews:Administrators|Wikinews:Administrators]]

{{Official policies}}
{{Proposed policies}}

[[Category:Wikiversity bureaucratship| ]]
[[de:Wikiversity:Pedelle#Bürokraten]]</text>
      <sha1>ouan91j30v1uygiginp1cn6kobszojy</sha1>
    </revision>
    <revision>
      <id>2808144</id>
      <parentid>2808122</parentid>
      <timestamp>2026-05-10T04:31:28Z</timestamp>
      <contributor>
        <username>Jtneill</username>
        <id>10242</id>
      </contributor>
      <comment>/* A bureaucrat's duties */ + curator</comment>
      <origin>2808144</origin>
      <model>wikitext</model>
      <format>text/x-wiki</format>
      <text bytes="5087" sha1="caarjx53hhuer6nmpedaqv6m75mc695" xml:space="preserve">{{proposal|WV:B|WV:BUR|WV:CRAT|WV:BCRAT}}
[[File:Wikiversity Bureaucrat.svg|right|130px|link=]]

'''Bureaucrats''' are part of [[Wikiversity]]'s [[Wikiversity:Support staff|support staff]]. Bureaucrats are users with the ability to promote other users to [[Wikiversity:Custodianship|custodian]] or bureaucrat status, and grant or revoke [[Wikiversity:Bots|bot]] status and [[Wikiversity:Interface administrators|interface admin]] status.

== A bureaucrat's role ==
First and foremost, bureaucrats must be well-trusted members of the community. They must have a deep understanding of [[Wikiversity:Mission|Wikiversity's mission]] and processes, and must be excellent judges of [[Wikiversity:Consensus|consensus]]. They must demonstrate through their extensive contributions to Wikiversity that they are not rash in decision-making, nor uncivil to others, even those whom they are in disagreement with. They must also have the ability and willingness to thoroughly explain decisions that they make, as well as to admit fault, where appropriate.

Bureaucrats ''do not'' have the right to use their status to appropriate any undue influence in community discussions - their participation in such activities is on a par with any other community member, insofar as is possible. Whatever influence they may have should be akin to that of any other community member, according to the weight of their opinions or their previous participation in the project.

Bureaucrats are expected to follow the same policies as [[Wikiversity:Curators|curators]] and [[Wikiversity:Custodianship|custodians]].

== A bureaucrat's duties ==
Bureaucrats can expand the set of ''groups'' that a user belongs to by adding a user to the ''bot'', ''interface administrator'', ''curator'', ''custodian'', or ''bureaucrat'' group (via [[Special:UserRights]] - [[Special:Log/rights]]). Bureaucrats act as the final interpreter of consensus with respect to candidacies for user group changes. Bureaucrats are charged with the responsibility of declaring at an appropriate time, whether a [[Wikiversity:Curator|curator]], [[WV:CC|custodian]], bureaucrat, [[Wikiversity:Bots|bot]], or [[Wikiversity:Interface administrators|interface administrator]] candidate is granted a user group change or otherwise. Bureaucrats should respect the Wikiversity community's decision on these particular matters. This management process is intended to streamline processing of requests for user group changes, and to minimize ambiguity introduced to the process when non-bureaucrats intervene.

Bureaucrats should be careful about making mistakes in adding user rights because only the ''bot'' and ''interface administrator'' groups can be removed by bureaucrats. To remove ''curator'', ''custodian'', or ''bureaucrat'' rights requires a [[m:Stewards|steward]].

== How can I question a bureaucrat's decision? ==
You can ask on a bureaucrat's [[Help:User talk page|user talk page]], request [[Wikiversity:Custodian feedback|feedback]] from other custodians and bureaucrats, or start a [[Wikiversity:Community Review|community review]]. The order is important, it reflects the order in which you should attempt to resolve a problem.

== How are bureaucrats created? ==
Bureaucrats can be nominated at [[Wikiversity:Candidates for Bureaucratship]]. However, no mentor is required. Nominations should be [[Wikiversity:Announcements|announced]] ([[MediaWiki:Sitenotice|site wide]]), and kept open for a period of '''at least two weeks''' before being acted upon. There needs to be '''a very strong majority''' of users in support of the decision to add or remove a candidate from the ''bureaucrat'' group.

== How are bureaucrats removed? ==
There are three ways:
# A bureaucrat can request removal of their tools from [[m:Steward requests/Permissions|stewards]].
# Requests for bureaucrat removal by others (unless it's an emergency) should first go through the process of talk page discussion, [[Wikiversity:Custodian feedback|custodian feedback request]], and [[Wikiversity:Community Review|community review]]. The final act would be a [[m:Steward requests/Permissions|request to stewards]] to remove the ''bureaucrat'' group from a user.
# The maximum time period of inactivity &lt;u&gt;without community review&lt;/u&gt; for holders of advanced administrative rights is two years per the [[:meta:Category:Global policies|global policy]] described at [[meta:Admin activity review|Admin activity review]]. After that time, a [[meta:Stewards|steward]] will remove the rights.

==See also==
;Wikiversity
* [[Wikiversity:Curators]]
* [[Wikiversity:Custodianship]]
* [[Special:ListUsers/bureaucrat|List of current Wikiversity bureaucrats]]
* [[Wikiversity:Colloquium/archives/December 2006#Bureaucrats]]

;Sister wikis
* [[w:Wikipedia:Bureaucrats|Wikipedia:Bureaucrats]]
* [[meta:Bureaucrat|Meta:Bureaucrat]]
* [[b:Wikibooks:Administrators|Wikibooks:Administrators]]
* [[wikinews:Wikinews:Administrators|Wikinews:Administrators]]

{{Official policies}}
{{Proposed policies}}

[[Category:Wikiversity bureaucratship| ]]
[[de:Wikiversity:Pedelle#Bürokraten]]</text>
      <sha1>caarjx53hhuer6nmpedaqv6m75mc695</sha1>
    </revision>
    <revision>
      <id>2808146</id>
      <parentid>2808144</parentid>
      <timestamp>2026-05-10T04:33:50Z</timestamp>
      <contributor>
        <username>Jtneill</username>
        <id>10242</id>
      </contributor>
      <comment>/* See also */ * [[Wikiversity:CheckUser policy]]</comment>
      <origin>2808146</origin>
      <model>wikitext</model>
      <format>text/x-wiki</format>
      <text bytes="5122" sha1="tixrctkmdeb2dpnk4d53cquepxi1fqr" xml:space="preserve">{{proposal|WV:B|WV:BUR|WV:CRAT|WV:BCRAT}}
[[File:Wikiversity Bureaucrat.svg|right|130px|link=]]

'''Bureaucrats''' are part of [[Wikiversity]]'s [[Wikiversity:Support staff|support staff]]. Bureaucrats are users with the ability to promote other users to [[Wikiversity:Custodianship|custodian]] or bureaucrat status, and grant or revoke [[Wikiversity:Bots|bot]] status and [[Wikiversity:Interface administrators|interface admin]] status.

== A bureaucrat's role ==
First and foremost, bureaucrats must be well-trusted members of the community. They must have a deep understanding of [[Wikiversity:Mission|Wikiversity's mission]] and processes, and must be excellent judges of [[Wikiversity:Consensus|consensus]]. They must demonstrate through their extensive contributions to Wikiversity that they are not rash in decision-making, nor uncivil to others, even those whom they are in disagreement with. They must also have the ability and willingness to thoroughly explain decisions that they make, as well as to admit fault, where appropriate.

Bureaucrats ''do not'' have the right to use their status to appropriate any undue influence in community discussions - their participation in such activities is on a par with any other community member, insofar as is possible. Whatever influence they may have should be akin to that of any other community member, according to the weight of their opinions or their previous participation in the project.

Bureaucrats are expected to follow the same policies as [[Wikiversity:Curators|curators]] and [[Wikiversity:Custodianship|custodians]].

== A bureaucrat's duties ==
Bureaucrats can expand the set of ''groups'' that a user belongs to by adding a user to the ''bot'', ''interface administrator'', ''curator'', ''custodian'', or ''bureaucrat'' group (via [[Special:UserRights]] - [[Special:Log/rights]]). Bureaucrats act as the final interpreter of consensus with respect to candidacies for user group changes. Bureaucrats are charged with the responsibility of declaring at an appropriate time, whether a [[Wikiversity:Curator|curator]], [[WV:CC|custodian]], bureaucrat, [[Wikiversity:Bots|bot]], or [[Wikiversity:Interface administrators|interface administrator]] candidate is granted a user group change or otherwise. Bureaucrats should respect the Wikiversity community's decision on these particular matters. This management process is intended to streamline processing of requests for user group changes, and to minimize ambiguity introduced to the process when non-bureaucrats intervene.

Bureaucrats should be careful about making mistakes in adding user rights because only the ''bot'' and ''interface administrator'' groups can be removed by bureaucrats. To remove ''curator'', ''custodian'', or ''bureaucrat'' rights requires a [[m:Stewards|steward]].

== How can I question a bureaucrat's decision? ==
You can ask on a bureaucrat's [[Help:User talk page|user talk page]], request [[Wikiversity:Custodian feedback|feedback]] from other custodians and bureaucrats, or start a [[Wikiversity:Community Review|community review]]. The order is important, it reflects the order in which you should attempt to resolve a problem.

== How are bureaucrats created? ==
Bureaucrats can be nominated at [[Wikiversity:Candidates for Bureaucratship]]. However, no mentor is required. Nominations should be [[Wikiversity:Announcements|announced]] ([[MediaWiki:Sitenotice|site wide]]), and kept open for a period of '''at least two weeks''' before being acted upon. There needs to be '''a very strong majority''' of users in support of the decision to add or remove a candidate from the ''bureaucrat'' group.

== How are bureaucrats removed? ==
There are three ways:
# A bureaucrat can request removal of their tools from [[m:Steward requests/Permissions|stewards]].
# Requests for bureaucrat removal by others (unless it's an emergency) should first go through the process of talk page discussion, [[Wikiversity:Custodian feedback|custodian feedback request]], and [[Wikiversity:Community Review|community review]]. The final act would be a [[m:Steward requests/Permissions|request to stewards]] to remove the ''bureaucrat'' group from a user.
# The maximum time period of inactivity &lt;u&gt;without community review&lt;/u&gt; for holders of advanced administrative rights is two years per the [[:meta:Category:Global policies|global policy]] described at [[meta:Admin activity review|Admin activity review]]. After that time, a [[meta:Stewards|steward]] will remove the rights.

==See also==
;Wikiversity
* [[Wikiversity:CheckUser policy]]
* [[Wikiversity:Curators]]
* [[Wikiversity:Custodianship]]
* [[Special:ListUsers/bureaucrat|List of current Wikiversity bureaucrats]]
* [[Wikiversity:Colloquium/archives/December 2006#Bureaucrats]]

;Sister wikis
* [[w:Wikipedia:Bureaucrats|Wikipedia:Bureaucrats]]
* [[meta:Bureaucrat|Meta:Bureaucrat]]
* [[b:Wikibooks:Administrators|Wikibooks:Administrators]]
* [[wikinews:Wikinews:Administrators|Wikinews:Administrators]]

{{Official policies}}
{{Proposed policies}}

[[Category:Wikiversity bureaucratship| ]]
[[de:Wikiversity:Pedelle#Bürokraten]]</text>
      <sha1>tixrctkmdeb2dpnk4d53cquepxi1fqr</sha1>
    </revision>
    <revision>
      <id>2808160</id>
      <parentid>2808146</parentid>
      <timestamp>2026-05-10T10:27:43Z</timestamp>
      <contributor>
        <username>Jtneill</username>
        <id>10242</id>
      </contributor>
      <minor />
      <origin>2808160</origin>
      <model>wikitext</model>
      <format>text/x-wiki</format>
      <text bytes="5130" sha1="9fohz5s5s0f805yshpyn11w56v00il8" xml:space="preserve">{{proposal|WV:B|WV:BUR|WV:CRAT|WV:BCRAT}}
[[File:Wikiversity Bureaucrat.svg|right|130px|link=]]

'''Bureaucrats''' are part of [[Wikiversity]]'s [[Wikiversity:Support staff|support staff]]. Bureaucrats are users with the ability to promote other users to [[Wikiversity:Custodianship|custodian]] or bureaucrat status, and grant or revoke [[Wikiversity:Bots|bot]] status and [[Wikiversity:Interface administrators|interface administrator]] status.

== A bureaucrat's role ==
First and foremost, bureaucrats must be well-trusted members of the community. They must have a deep understanding of [[Wikiversity:Mission|Wikiversity's mission]] and processes, and must be excellent judges of [[Wikiversity:Consensus|consensus]]. They must demonstrate through their extensive contributions to Wikiversity that they are not rash in decision-making, nor uncivil to others, even those whom they are in disagreement with. They must also have the ability and willingness to thoroughly explain decisions that they make, as well as to admit fault, where appropriate.

Bureaucrats ''do not'' have the right to use their status to appropriate any undue influence in community discussions - their participation in such activities is on a par with any other community member, insofar as is possible. Whatever influence they may have should be akin to that of any other community member, according to the weight of their opinions or their previous participation in the project.

Bureaucrats are expected to follow the same policies as [[Wikiversity:Curators|curators]] and [[Wikiversity:Custodianship|custodians]].

== A bureaucrat's duties ==
Bureaucrats can expand the set of ''groups'' that a user belongs to by adding a user to the ''bot'', ''interface administrator'', ''curator'', ''custodian'', or ''bureaucrat'' group (via [[Special:UserRights]] - [[Special:Log/rights]]). Bureaucrats act as the final interpreter of consensus with respect to candidacies for user group changes. Bureaucrats are charged with the responsibility of declaring at an appropriate time, whether a [[Wikiversity:Curator|curator]], [[WV:CC|custodian]], bureaucrat, [[Wikiversity:Bots|bot]], or [[Wikiversity:Interface administrators|interface administrator]] candidate is granted a user group change or otherwise. Bureaucrats should respect the Wikiversity community's decision on these particular matters. This management process is intended to streamline processing of requests for user group changes, and to minimize ambiguity introduced to the process when non-bureaucrats intervene.

Bureaucrats should be careful about making mistakes in adding user rights because only the ''bot'' and ''interface administrator'' groups can be removed by bureaucrats. To remove ''curator'', ''custodian'', or ''bureaucrat'' rights requires a [[m:Stewards|steward]].

== How can I question a bureaucrat's decision? ==
You can ask on a bureaucrat's [[Help:User talk page|user talk page]], request [[Wikiversity:Custodian feedback|feedback]] from other custodians and bureaucrats, or start a [[Wikiversity:Community Review|community review]]. The order is important, it reflects the order in which you should attempt to resolve a problem.

== How are bureaucrats created? ==
Bureaucrats can be nominated at [[Wikiversity:Candidates for Bureaucratship]]. However, no mentor is required. Nominations should be [[Wikiversity:Announcements|announced]] ([[MediaWiki:Sitenotice|site wide]]), and kept open for a period of '''at least two weeks''' before being acted upon. There needs to be '''a very strong majority''' of users in support of the decision to add or remove a candidate from the ''bureaucrat'' group.

== How are bureaucrats removed? ==
There are three ways:
# A bureaucrat can request removal of their tools from [[m:Steward requests/Permissions|stewards]].
# Requests for bureaucrat removal by others (unless it's an emergency) should first go through the process of talk page discussion, [[Wikiversity:Custodian feedback|custodian feedback request]], and [[Wikiversity:Community Review|community review]]. The final act would be a [[m:Steward requests/Permissions|request to stewards]] to remove the ''bureaucrat'' group from a user.
# The maximum time period of inactivity &lt;u&gt;without community review&lt;/u&gt; for holders of advanced administrative rights is two years per the [[:meta:Category:Global policies|global policy]] described at [[meta:Admin activity review|Admin activity review]]. After that time, a [[meta:Stewards|steward]] will remove the rights.

==See also==
;Wikiversity
* [[Wikiversity:CheckUser policy]]
* [[Wikiversity:Curators]]
* [[Wikiversity:Custodianship]]
* [[Special:ListUsers/bureaucrat|List of current Wikiversity bureaucrats]]
* [[Wikiversity:Colloquium/archives/December 2006#Bureaucrats]]

;Sister wikis
* [[w:Wikipedia:Bureaucrats|Wikipedia:Bureaucrats]]
* [[meta:Bureaucrat|Meta:Bureaucrat]]
* [[b:Wikibooks:Administrators|Wikibooks:Administrators]]
* [[wikinews:Wikinews:Administrators|Wikinews:Administrators]]

{{Official policies}}
{{Proposed policies}}

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      <text bytes="53811" sha1="4akmpujqi2q4642x1cjzy8dd3m2nwb0" xml:space="preserve">The roles for bureaucrats are not the same at all Wikimedia Foundation projects. For example, one of the key duties of bureaucrats is to turn wiki users into sysops (called [[Wikiversity:Custodianship|custodians]] at Wikiversity). The Wikiversity community should decide if there is some set level of community support required for custodianship or if bureaucrats can exercise some discretion at the end of a community discussion about a candidate for custodianship. --[[User:JWSchmidt|JWSchmidt]] 23:39, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

== Responsibilities of bureaucrats ==

Well, before we can really begin drafting this policy, I think we first need to take a comprehensive look at the technical rights of bureaucrats, the &quot;non-technical&quot; rights of bureaucrats, and the responsibilities of bureaucrats on enwikiversity. 

*'''Technical rigts''': To get the obvious out of the way: bureaucrats are the only local user group capable of granting a user SysOp rights--the policy of when this permission can be used is covered (to some extent) in [[Wikiversity:Custodianship]], so I'm not sure this policy will need to elaborate much upon this. Bureaucrats are also the only local group capable of granting a user Bureaucrat status--the main purpose of this policy is to decide upon when they can and cannot do this. Among their other technical rights are the ability to rename local users and the ability to grant a user bot status. I think it very important that enwikiversity draft both a user renaming policy and a thorough [[Wikiversity:Bots|bot policy]], both of which we lack at the moment. 

*'''Non-technical rights''': On enwiki, we regard Bureaucrats as the ultimate judges of consensus--I believe we should maintain this idea in our Bureaucratship policy. Only bureacrats should be able to close requests for adminship and bureaucratship, approve or reject requests for name changes, and I would also like to propose that they be final authority in requests for bot status. While our focus here isn't a bot approvals process, I would suggest that we use a process similar to RfA for bot status, where users are granted bot status based upon community consensus and where the bureaucrats are the judges of this consensus.

*'''What crats can't do although it's logical to think that they could''': Bureaucrats do not have the technically ability nor the authority to revoke ''any'' user status--crat, bot, or sysop. Requests for desysopping and the like must go through the [[m:Stewards]]. Note that this issue is truly not one that can be debated--'twas set in stone long ago due to a crat gone mad on enwiki.

*'''Expectations of bureaucrats''': First and foremost, bureacrats must be well-trusted members of the community. They must have exceptional understanding of the way things work on Wikiversity and must be ''excellent'' judges of consensus. They must demonstrate through their extensive contributions to Wikiversity that they are not rash in decision-making nor incivil nor incompetent. Also of primary importance is a bureaucrat's ability to thoroughly explain and defend the decisions or he or she makes as well the ability to admit fault. 

Anyway this is just some random babbling/brainstorming. Please discuss :). [[User:AmiDaniel|AmiDaniel]] ([[User talk:AmiDaniel|talk]]) 07:22, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

:&lt;nowiki&gt;{{Subst:blabber-warning1-n|Wikiversity talk:Bureaucratship}}&lt;/nowiki&gt;, Yes, I'd agree with all of what you just said, infact with some rewording I say we have our policy draft ;) [[User:MichaelBillington|Michael Billington]] ([[User talk:MichaelBillington|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/MichaelBillington|contribs]]) 07:40, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

:At the end of community discussions about custodian candidates, should there be any room for judgment by bureaucrats or should they just just do what the community decides (for example, 2/3 approval from participants in the community discussion means automatic approval by the bureaucrats)? What happens if bureaucrats have a disagreement? Does Wikiversity need more than two bureaucrats? --[[User:JWSchmidt|JWSchmidt]] 02:31, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

::Well, we don't want mindless drones as bureaucrats, so I think it's good to advise that (at least some) judgement should be used. But I do think that 2 thirds sounds good as a guide, (that's around 67%), which although not a strong consensus, reflects a good majority. If there is a dispute then you just cut out any sock votes, and see if it is above or below 2/3, otherwise we can just trust their judgement. [[User:MichaelBillington|Michael Billington]] ([[User talk:MichaelBillington|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/MichaelBillington|contribs]]) 03:15, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

:::You know, there might be an advantage to keep this process entirely ambiguous. Suppose we declare a threshold of 50% promotion, but in practise, essentially near unanimous support is needed. No well meaning bureaucrat candidate would aim to get 50% support, because if they did, it would signify that they are not in tune with the public consciousness that oversees this site. --[[User:HappyCamper|HappyCamper]] 03:42, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

::::2/3 makes sense only if the participants have [[meta:consensus|agreed to disagree]].  If there is but one strong objection with reason, the discussion should continue.--[[User:Hillgentleman|Hillgentleman]]|[[User talk:hillgentleman|User talk]] 11:40, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

:::::I am in favour of having a minimum amount of votes, before a decision can be made. One of the problems on wikipedia is that the ones who create the articles are not the ones who make the decisions.--[[User:Daanschr|Daanschr]] 09:56, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
::::::Granted, Wikiversity isn't the place to fix the problems from Wikipedia though...but I do like the idea. One way to do this, is to set this threshold proportional to the number of active participants, and simply have the nomination open until it is met. There will be some technicalities involved, but might be worthwhile looking into. --[[User:HappyCamper|HappyCamper]] 15:32, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

(unindenting) I personally am not a fan of hardcoding rules about what percent of the populus needs to support someone for him to be made an admin. In theory, all custodianship &quot;elections&quot; should actually be ''discussions'' where the goal is attaining consensus, in which case the bureaucrat should then be required to not just look at numbers of supporters vs. opposers, but rather to thoroughly read through the discussion and determine what the true ''consensus'' of the community is. Nonetheless, that is often an idealist concept, and it may be a methodology that we will not be able to maintain for long. In any case, however, I belive that, though adminship is truly not a big deal, if ''one third'' or more of the community has good reason to oppose handing someone the mop, that person should not be made an admin--I would personally favor a much higher level of needed support (75-80%) before a Bureaucrat even considers making a user an admin. Codifying consensus clearly has its benefits--it spares crats a lot of work if they just have to look at numbers and it gives them an easy way to respond to disputes that arise about their actions, by simply citing numbers. But it is not the wiki way, nor should the task of bureaucrats simply be to count votes. I rather believe the most important quality of a prospective bureaucrat to be the ability to reasonably judge ''consensus'' without counting votes, the ability to make tough decisions, and the ability to adequately to defend oneself when making such decisions. That, I belive, should be our focus, rather than deciding what percentage of support constitutes consensus in all situations. Do keep in mind that [[m:Polling is evil]] and should be avoided where possible. Now to address Daanschr's concerns that &quot;the ones who create the articles are not the ones who make the decisions&quot;--I personally believe it best so; the major article writers tend to be the ones least concerned with administrivia such as blocking policies and deletion policies  and the tedious boring tasks of clearing categories such as [[w:CAT:NSD]]. The job of an administrator is to be well-versed in policy matters, to have excellent common sense, and to serve as diplomats in disputes--while writing featured articles is an excellent way to gain knowledge in how to deal with disputes, it is by far not the only way, and I find that the major article writers tend to be the least capable of maintaining neutrality. Note as well that administrative permissions provide you, in theory at least, with no higher status in the community, no more influence in policy matters, and certainly not any extra tools to help you write better articles. Administrators are just that--administrators; they deal with administrative issues. Similarly, Bureaucrats deal with bureaucratic issues such as renaming users, flagging bots, and processing requests for adminship. Neither admins nor bureaucrats nor checkusers nor any other user group should have any greater influence over individual articles nor the policies governing all users and articles than any other user. Okay, ending babbling now. :D [[User:AmiDaniel|AmiDaniel]] ([[User talk:AmiDaniel|talk]]) 18:01, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

:I don't like the idea of always trying to get consensus. The result of this is unending discussions on policy and a conservative, defensive community. I would prefer to have a system which can be able to changed things. Such a system could be top-down with a clear leader, who can make tough decisions, a kind of democratic system where majorities can overrule minorities, or a corporate system where institutes within Wikiversity can have a say on policy. It depends on what Wikiversity will try to become. At the moment it is not clear at all what it will be.--[[User:Daanschr|Daanschr]] 18:18, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

::And contrarily, the concept of a top-down hierarchial power structure sends shivers up my spine, as no individual, or even group of individuals, can possibly have the best know-how in all situations. I find that, in a wiki structure, discussion seems to be the best way at attaining results, as it allows for people's opinions to be influenced, allows for more equality among membrs of the community, and helps to prevent narrow, dogmatic views on issues. Sure, it takes longer, but I find the results tend to be much more beneficial. Note as well that by consensus I don't mean that everyone has to agree upon something for it to be done, but rather that decisions should be made by the community as a whole rather than just a handful of individuals, or even a narrow majority of the community. [[User:AmiDaniel|AmiDaniel]] ([[User talk:AmiDaniel|talk]]) 18:31, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

:::I don't believe very much in individualism. People are very conformistic regardless of rhetorics to promote individualism. I agree with you that the group of people who decide shouldn't be too small. The process of decision-making should be as inclusive as possible, but inclusiveness doesn't necessarily have to be individualistic.--[[User:Daanschr|Daanschr]] 19:04, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

::::Wikiversity is a wiki, which means that it must work as a collaborative process. The best means to maintaining the motivation and participation of all involved in a wiki is to recognise that there is often a diversity of points of view, and that this diversity needs to be reflected in the consensus-of-the-time (which can itself be discussed and changed). We have to recognise that individuals bring particular viewpoints to the community, and that individuals have needs in terms of being heard, being valued etc. So we must place some value in individualism. But we are also here to create a collaborative project - which means we need to be able to listen to one another, discuss openly, and sometimes take criticism. All of this applies to anyone - including custodians and bureaucrats. But we can't give up our base of consensus - otherwise it would not be a truly collaborative project. [[User:Cormaggio|Cormaggio]] &lt;sup&gt;&lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Cormaggio|talk]]&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 20:20, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

:::::Having said that, we should state that consensus has its limitations - it can be misused, and it can be misinterpreted. I think it's a risk that Wiki participants implicitly accept. --[[User:HappyCamper|HappyCamper]] 22:43, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

:&lt;b&gt;Polling is not evil.&lt;/b&gt;  It is a concise way to evaluate a large group's weighted position.  Anyone claiming to be able to accurately judge the &quot;consensus&quot; of a large group discussion without some kind of a straw poll ....   Further, it is unlikely that a large fraction of participants at wikiversity will actually care enough about who operates the mops to participate repeatedly in &quot;consensus&quot; building.  Sometimes, temporary closure can be a beautiful thing.  I think initially most administrative functions, including bureaucrat status, should be fairly easily attained and moderately easily removed if people so trusted cannot learn to wield their priveleges/responsibilities effectively.   This was the case when Wikipedia was a startup and helped grow the community and encyclopedia to critical mass.  Of course, Wikipedia had a formal clearcut organizational structure that was fairly flat.  There was the God King, the developers, everyone else.  Adminship was essentially the result of having sufficient experience with the wiki and the community to be trusted to avoid really foolish blunders and trusted to be willing to help fix mistakes.  At the moment Wikiversity is vertically taller than early Wikipedia was by approximately a Board of Directors, a committee, and possibly an informal subcommittee, stewards and bureaurcrats and custodians.  Custodianship is not automatic after an initial introduction period.   Anybody think this tall fuzzy infrastructure is helpful in retaining newcomers?  How could we emulate the early structure of Wikipedia?  Well perhaps once a year we could have a vote for an honorary &quot;God King&quot; who could occasionally decide tough issues for the community (those urgently requiring dramatic prompt action for the greater good or at least to avoid the greater bad ...) but usually keep quiet and let the community argue it out.  Obviously our &quot;God King&quot; would not have the real authority that Jimbo started out with and has carefully preserved by stacking the Wikimedia Foundation board .... still I expect the Board (or a committee or a steward or a local bureaucrat or a local participant) might listen carefully when the honorary Wikiversity God King speaks regarding Wikiversity issues considering the position as a community spokesperson has been numerically substantiated by a majority of the votes cast determined legitimate and counted.   Perhaps we should include term limits or restrict the candidates to former bureaucrats???  Notice that if you consider voting evil that can dramatically reduce the voting.  One vote once a year and then the God King can help sort it all out by deciding the &quot;consensus&quot;.  No further straw polls required, unless of course the God King requests one.  [[User:71.161.11.162|71.161.11.162]] 07:47, 11 December 2006 (UTC) ([[User:Mirwin|Mirwin]])

:::Hey, hold on there...what I wrote should not be interpreted as commentary on the voting process - that was not what I had in mind at all. --[[User:HappyCamper|HappyCamper]] 15:18, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

::The structure of Wikiversity is no more hierarchical/vertical than any other Wikimedia project. What it seems you're confusing it with is the structure of Wikimedia - which is a quite separate sphere of activity to the running of this project. No project has created their own GodKing, and I believe it would be entirely inappropriate to create such a thing. Consensus isn't that hard to ascertain - if there is opposition, it will be clear on the relevant pages. If needs be, polls can certainly be used to gauge opinion. But I think you're misinterpreting the gist of the maxim &quot;voting/polls is/are evil&quot;, which should really read something like: &quot;Votes/polls can be divisive, and they should be used sparingly, with caution, and after substantial discussion, and their results should not be taken as necessarily indicating a majority or a consensus within the community&quot;. [[User:Cormaggio|Cormaggio]] &lt;sup&gt;&lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Cormaggio|talk]]&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 15:12, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

:::'''voting'''. One of the bad things that happens with polls is that they are often started before there has been any serious discussion of a topic. In a wiki, votes do not constructively substitute for discussion, collaboration and compromise. I trust both custodians and bureaucrats to discount any votes that are not closely coupled to a an argument that explains the reasoning behind the vote. --[[User:JWSchmidt|JWSchmidt]] 16:02, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

::::I don't agree that this should be the decision of the custodians and bureaucrats. I am more in favour of a system of checks and balances. The rights and duties of all involved should be clearly defined.--[[User:Daanschr|Daanschr]] 09:47, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

:::::I am familiar and comfortable with [[w:Wikipedia:Consensus]]. I guess Wikiversity needs [[Wikiversity:Consensus]] in order to make clear how this project will deal with consensus and any proposed &quot;system of checks and balances&quot;. --[[User:JWSchmidt|JWSchmidt]] 16:38, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

== informed action by bureaucrats ==

#&quot;we don't want mindless drones as bureaucrats&quot;
#&quot;the bureaucrat should read through the discussion and determine what the true consensus of the community is&quot;
#&quot;of primary importance is a bureaucrat's ability to thoroughly explain and defend the decisions or he or she makes as well the ability to admit fault&quot;
#paraphrase: sometimes the search for community consensus can bog down and bureaucrats just need to &quot;cut the knot&quot; and act

I think the &quot;logic&quot; of the above line of reasoning (points 1-4) rests on one additional idea that should be made explicit. A wiki bureaucrat should have a good understanding of the mission of the wiki and a willingness to put the success of the project ahead of consensus. Bureaucrats are in a position to do so by '''not''' acting when they are asked to act. If a bureaucrat feels that a requested action would do more harm than good, the bureaucrat can discuss the requested action before acting. &quot;[[w:Ochlocracy|Mob rule]]&quot; is a potential danger in any human social system that is guided by consensus. Bureaucrats can function as a check on this danger. Bureaucrats should be experienced wiki users who are always watching for situations in which the community might be rushing into a poor decision that does not really serve the long-term interests of the project. Also, too close adherence to policy can create problems. For example, if on the last scheduled day of a community discussion some new evidence is provided, it might be wise to extend the discussion rather than close it at the scheduled time. When bureaucrats are willing to do what is best for the project '''and''' explain what they are doing it can allow the community to be thoughtful and possibly avoid rushing into a regrettable course of action. Item #4 in the list (acting without consensus, above) is a bit trickier than failure to act. When bureaucrats feel forced into taking action in the absence of community consensus there should at least be consensus among bureaucrats and a clear explanation to the community of why the action is being taken. It makes sense to me that any bureaucrat action that is not supported by prior community consensus should be open to critical evaluation by the community. There was an interesting case at the English Wikipedia in which bureaucrats &quot;broke the rules&quot; in deciding to grant adminship to a candidate who had an unusually low level of community support. I think the Wikiversity community needs to give some thought to the best way to deal with that kind of situation. --[[User:JWSchmidt|JWSchmidt]] 19:47, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

:If precedent needs to be made, the bureaucrat better be in a position to justify this rigorously. If they cannot do this, a decision to not take action should have been taken. There is no reason why things need to be rushed here. --[[User:HappyCamper|HappyCamper]] 19:56, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

:I understand that sometimes a bureaucrat needs to act when, for example, quick action is needed but the participants are still debating which course of action to take.  I also understand that sometimes a bureaucrat may ''refuse to  act''.  But I cannot accept a bureaucrat ''acting contrarily'' to community opinion.  Even consensus amongst bureaucrats is not enough excuse.----[[User:Hillgentleman|Hillgentleman]]|[[User talk:hillgentleman|Talk]] 23:23, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

::I suppose we could make a list of everything that can &quot;trump&quot; community consensus. For example, sometimes the Wikimedia Foundation central office makes a sudden decision (such as deleting a wiki page or placing an editing ban on an individual) based on the need to protect the Foundation from legal attack or threats of legal attack. Also, there are some standing Wikimedia Foundation policies that pertain to all Wikimedia Foundation projects. I do not think we can expect a bureaucrat to simply bow to community consensus if the bureaucrat knows that there is a good reason not to initiate an action called for by a community discussion. Simply put, it is possible for community consensus to fail to identify the best course of action and it is not reasonable to tell bureaucrats that they must '''always''' do what community consensus calls for. This is similar to saying that a soldier follows orders but does have to follow an order that involves doing something illegal. However, such situations where a bureaucrat might contradict community consensus are extraordinary. For the vast majority of bureaucrat actions there is no conflict with community consensus or likelihood that anyone would ever question the action. --[[User:JWSchmidt|JWSchmidt]] 02:44, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

:::I agree with JWSchmidt that the interest of Wikiversity should be above the interest of single individuals who damage the whole project. However, too much autocratic power for bureaucrats can be damaging as well.--[[User:Daanschr|Daanschr]] 07:59, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

::::Since bureaucrats are volunteers too, I think it should be obvious that a bureaucrat can always refuse to act.  The community can always appeal the the higher hiearchy to activate some additional bureaucrats with diverse views if a cabal of consistently agreeing bureaucrats seem to consistently take action opposing the &quot;consensus&quot; of the rest of the Wikiversity community within the scope of discussion.  (I assume literature students will not be interested in dictating how engineering sections implement local java labs for finite element analysis ... unless it effects their online response from Wikimedia servers.) Just as the rest of the community participants can bow out at will and go do something else.  We probably should define what &quot;consensus&quot; means locally.   Some people seem to mean a simple majority while others seem to hold out for unanimous and yet others prefer a fuzzy definition preserving the bureaucrats independence and ability to summarize and act as they see fit.  Meanwhile, the &quot;voting is evil&quot; faction seems to prefer guessing while my own &quot;voting is ok&quot; faction prefers concise quantitative data summarizing the final instantaneous result of the discussions.   [[User:71.161.11.162|71.161.11.162]] 08:09, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
:::::I find it interesting that [http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Consensus this page about consensus] makes no attempt to define a numerical measure of consensus. --[[User:JWSchmidt|JWSchmidt]] 16:14, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

==should admins be good editors and contributors?==
I think this is an important issue and I am glad it was raised during a discussion of how bureaucrats should function as part of the process of selecting new custodians. There is danger in having custodians who do not create Wikiversity content. Such custodians can be out of touch with the difficulties faced by wiki participants while they are learning how to contribute to the project. When dealing with edits that are not obvious vandalism and that seem not to fit into the project, all custodians have to try to [[Wikiversity:Assume Good Faith|Assume Good Faith]]. A custodian who does not participate in content creation might be more likely to just roll back a strange edit or delete an unusual page without taking the time to find out what the original contributor of that content was trying to accomplish. Sometimes new editors are trying to contribute and they need help to learn how, not a swift kick from a custodian. Sometimes people show up at Wikiversity and express a desire to fight vandalism while showing no particular interest in contributing to the project. Should bureaucrats simply refuse to grant custodianship to such a candidate? --[[User:JWSchmidt|JWSchmidt]] 19:47, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

:Absolutely. --[[User:HappyCamper|HappyCamper]] 19:53, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

::But Wikipedia has been open to another type of administrator....folks who do very little work to create encyclopedia articles while doing a lot of work to revert vandalism. Should Wikiversity exclude this type of contributor from custodianship? ([http://blog.ericgoldman.org/archives/2006/12/wikipedia_will_1.htm this might be relevant]) --[[User:JWSchmidt|JWSchmidt]] 21:41, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

:::Absolutely not. --[[User:HappyCamper|HappyCamper]] 22:14, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

::::I should not be using these qualifiers because they misrepresent the complexity of the situation that we're trying to address. --[[User:HappyCamper|HappyCamper]] 22:14, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

:&quot;''folks doing very little course work...''&quot; -- Every custodian should have participated actively in ''at least one'' learning project.--[[User:Hillgentleman|Hillgentleman]]|[[User talk:hillgentleman|Talk]] 23:46, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

== So it seems... ==

So, from what I gather so far, it seems that the direction we are headed is that someone that is a bureaucrat plays a significantly more important role than a custodian. Is this assessment correct? --[[User:HappyCamper|HappyCamper]] 19:57, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

:I think that is an unavoidable conclusion. However, the ''extent'' to which bureaucrats should have the power to, for example, carry through or block community decisions is not at all decided (it has only just been mentioned) - so the &quot;significantly more important&quot; part still needs to be qualified. Personally, I wouldn't like to exaggerate this importance - as I believe a bureaucrat's ''main'' role is to act as an implementer of due process (eg. making custodians, closing custodian discussions) - ''within a consensus model''. [[User:Cormaggio|Cormaggio]] &lt;sup&gt;&lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Cormaggio|talk]]&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 20:29, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

::I think that if we bothered to do a study of bureaucrat actions within Wikimedia Foundation projects we would find that the vast majority of bureaucrat actions are based on consensus and/or are never seriously questioned or discussed as being inappropriate. The excitement only comes on those rare occasions when something unusual happens. Can Wikiversity learn from what has happened in the past at other projects or do we just have to wait until our own conflicts arise? Alternatively, do we just reject the idea that &quot;we don't want mindless drones as bureaucrats&quot; and insist that bureaucrats function as drones who only throw the switches after enough votes have been cast? --[[User:JWSchmidt|JWSchmidt]] 20:51, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

:::I doubt if anyone would endorse a &quot;mindless&quot; flicking of the switch - the bureaucrat's actions (to carry out or oppose a community decision) need to be justified - ''particularly'' the latter (which I hope wouldn't arise). [[User:Cormaggio|Cormaggio]] &lt;sup&gt;&lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Cormaggio|talk]]&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 21:24, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
::::In fact, I think the rule has to be more than just &quot;bureaucrats who act without first attaining the usual level of community consensus need to be ready to explain their action&quot;. The rule should be something like &quot;an explanation for the action must be provided along with evidence that the action is based on consensus among a specified group of bureaucrats&quot;. I think the real problems have arisen at Wikipedia when  bureaucrats have adopted a &quot;bunker mentality&quot;, do not try to explain their actions until forced to do so, and call people who questions their actions &quot;troll&quot;. This kind of behavior has been rare, but it is very destructive to a sense of community, even if the controversial bureaucrat action was correct. --[[User:JWSchmidt|JWSchmidt]] 22:02, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

:::::I started this thread because I feel uncomfortable with the emerging view of what a bureaucrat is on Wikiversity to date. I'm still thinking about this thread... --[[User:HappyCamper|HappyCamper]] 22:37, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

::::::I don't understand the idea that bureaucrats can be mindless drones. I guess that it will be impossible for bureaucrats to explain all actions to everyone when the organization grows into a huge moloch like Wikipedia. A friend of mine is admin on Wikipedia and he says that nothing will change there in how the organization is ruled. Well, that is very easy to maintain. But what if change can be considered as good. There needs to be a political system that can be open to change. Being open to change means having to deal with serious resentment, in which consensus and open discussion will not be possible anymore.

::::::Before preceding, i would like to keep in mind the goal of Wikiversity and the organizations within it. How is this discussion going to relate to the establishment of schools and courses, advocating interlingual debates, establishing learning materials? The constitution of Wikiversity should be able to support the organization in its daily functioning. To cast an idea: A corporate system could be that decisions are taken by the schools and by groups who organize debates, thereby circumventing those who only take part in discussions at the top of the establishment as seems to be the practise at Wikipedia.--[[User:Daanschr|Daanschr]] 08:19, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

:::::::''JWSchmidt'': I agree that such a &quot;bunker mentality&quot; could be very destructive to this community. I would not like to have to make any decision which alienated a subset of this community. I furthermore think that hierarchical structures could undermine the whole process of seeking consensus, which is fundamental to our work. Any view of a bureaucrat's &quot;power&quot; ''must'' be embedded ''within'' this model, not somehow supplanting it.
:::::::''HappyCamper'': I'm worried. What emerging view of bureaucratship are you uncomfortable with? I really want you to feel free to express your thoughts openly. Does my above note address your fears at all?
:::::::''Daanschr'': I think change is fundamental to our entire modus operandi, even our raison d'etre (my second time using that phrase in two days!). I think it would be terrible to recreate a system that made participants feel they could make no lasting impact on the project - even if this belief was misguided. But, while I completely endorse the development of a whole system that would sustain this project, I'm a little confused by your idea here - what decisions would need to be taken at the school level that would require custodian or bureaucrat input? [[User:Cormaggio|Cormaggio]] &lt;sup&gt;&lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Cormaggio|talk]]&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 14:47, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

For instance how the policy of [[Wikiversity:Cite sources|citing]] and [[Wikiversity:Verifiability|verifying]] [[Wikiversity:Reliable sources|reliable sources]] can be implemented. But also how [[Learning to learn a wiki way]], [[Wikiversity:Scholarly ethics|Scholarly Ethics]] or my idea of trying to gain the respect of the academic world can be implemented. This can also be decided for at school level, so each school can determine for itself on how to use it or by not using it at all.

Happycamper, i quess the stewarts of the Wikimedia Foundation are still in charge here. When a bureaucrat behaves in such a way that it damages the community considerably, then the stewarts can interphere isn't it? It would be funny if that is the case. The whole Wiki community would serve like a medieval monastic order.--[[User:Daanschr|Daanschr]] 15:26, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

:The stewards typically do not intervene unless requested by the community - in fact, I think they are instructed not to ever jump in. ''Daanschr'', actually, you raise quite a good point, so maybe we should share some ideas on a different page regarding academics and such. I think I have a fairly good idea what your concerns are. Maybe after this bureaucrat thing is done we can talk more. I don't know if I can keep up with two different threads. ''Cormaggio'' - not to worry, I was happy to read your posts. --[[User:HappyCamper|HappyCamper]] 16:26, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

::I would be happy to start such a page.--[[User:Daanschr|Daanschr]] 10:14, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

:::Such a page would be excellent to have. What about [[Wikiversity:Academic standards]], [[Wikiversity:Methodology]], or [[Wikiversity:Scholarly practice]]? Alternatively (or, perhaps, in parallel), we could develop [[Wikiversity:Scholarly ethics]], [[Wikiversity:Academic freedom]], [[Wikiversity:Verifiability]], [[Wikiversity:Cite sources]], [[Wikiversity:Reliable sources]], [[Wikiversity:Wikiversity outreach]], or others which I may have temporarily forgotten.. [[User:Cormaggio|Cormaggio]] &lt;sup&gt;&lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Cormaggio|talk]]&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 16:26, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

::::Academic standards sounds good, or what about 'academic expertise'?--[[User:Daanschr|Daanschr]] 18:27, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

To give a little insight into why the model for RfA we have here was chosen: an experience I and others have made in other projects is that the process for attaining adminship can become exceedingly arduous and personal. More often than not it ends up consisting of an evaluation of a user's entire history of contributions rather than their fitness for adminship. This is partially due to the fact that at most other projects there's usually no concrete experience with the user exercising admin features prior to the RfA. So the community is forced to use other points of reference to evaluate the candidate.

At Wikiversity, we've created a process that's different from that. Candidates for custodianship are required to be mentored for four weeks, after which they are evaluated by their mentor. The point of this process is for a candidate to have the opportunity to exercise custodian tools and demonstrate the way in which they would conduct themselves as full custodians. If the mentor provides a favorable recommendation, the candidate can apply for full custodianship, subject to community discussion. The final decision in this matter lies with the bureaucrats who are expected to evaluate the mentorship period, the recommendation and community feedback. It's not so much a question of consensus but of informed decision-making considering the interests of Wikiversity as a collaborative project as the highest priority. For other issues, I would expect for bureaucrats to act in the same thoughtful and constructive manner. [[User:sebmol|sebmol]] [[User talk:sebmol|&lt;sup&gt;?&lt;/sup&gt;]] 16:49, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

:&quot;trying to gain the respect of the academic world&quot; &lt;-- I think many people outside of the wiki world are baffled by how wikis function. It is natural for people to assume that wiki &quot;support staff&quot; somehow have special control over the content of Wikimedia Foundation project wikis. There is actually a more subtle and  interesting relationship between the special tasks that can be performed only by &quot;[[Wikiversity:Support staff|Support staff]]&quot; and the &quot;real work&quot; that is done by all wiki participants to actually develop the project. The term &quot;custodian&quot; was selected as the Wikiversity term for &quot;sysop&quot; partly in an attempt to stress the idea that it is not a very exciting position to hold. Picture custodians who quietly sweep the floor when a school is closed at the end of the day. My hope is that if we can do a good job of engineering the Wikiversity rules for support staff then it will be possible for custodians and bureaucrats to be almost invisible to the bulk of the community. Most wikiversity participants should be able to get on with the &quot;real work&quot; of the wiki and all they need to know is how to do is call a custodian in case a toilet blocks up and some mopping is needed. While we can strive to make &quot;support staff&quot; invisible, every action taken by wiki &quot;support staff&quot; needs to be open to review; if there is ever a problem caused by &quot;support staff&quot; then the community needs to be able to correct it. At Wikipedia there are occasionally calls for some kind of formal oversight for &quot;support staff&quot; such as periodic performance reviews. The system that has developed to deal with &quot;support staff&quot; problems is more adversarial and crisis-oriented. If someone perceives a problem with Wikipedia &quot;support staff&quot; then in order to correct it seems like there often has to be a formal and legalistic case brought before the arbitration committee. One way that &quot;support staff&quot; can get in the &quot;dog house&quot; is by trying to use their special tools to take control of wiki content. The bottom line is, &quot;support staff&quot; can only indirectly influence &quot;respect of the academic world&quot; by keeping a clean house within Wikiversity (cleaning up vandalism, etc). It is really up to &quot;regular&quot; Wikiversity participants to gain the respect of the academic world. However, it may be useful for Wikiversity to create a new type of &quot;functionary&quot; that can specialize for &quot;professional&quot; contacts with the academic world. There are some ideas along this line [[Wikiversity:Review board#Ambassadorial function|here]]. --[[User:JWSchmidt|JWSchmidt]] 17:37, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

::If the scholarly ethics will be enforced by the support staff, then their roll will not be invisible. Do you mean with invisible that the support staff will only be concerned with fighting vandalism? The arbitration comittee has made decisions which are questionable. I wouldn't like to have such an institution on Wikiversity.--[[User:Daanschr|Daanschr]] 10:14, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

:::I think that, on scholarly ethics and all other principles of good practice here, while they are vital to developing a high quality resource, I don't think they are of immediate relevance to this discussion on what bureaucrats/support staff should do. Bureaucrats and custodians should not get involved ''in their capacities as support staff'' in the implementation of such policies - they should get involved in discussing such policies and applying them as completely equal community members. As far as I can see it, the only policies that would be of direct relevance to a bureaucrat's or custodian's position would be those around civility - and even then, it is still a ''community'' issue, to perhaps be implemented by a member of the &quot;support staff&quot;. What other types of policies could be enforceable by support staff? [[User:Cormaggio|Cormaggio]] &lt;sup&gt;&lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Cormaggio|talk]]&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 16:26, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

::::I am in favour of a democratic system at the moment, something like the Germans have. A system that ensures that change is possible and at the same time makes it possible that as much of people as possible are directly included in making decisions.--[[User:Daanschr|Daanschr]] 18:15, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

:::::Speaking generally, there are two types of actions taken by custodians and bureaucrats:
:::::1) actions that are best taken after a group of people have thought about them and discussed the matter
:::::2) actions that are so trivial that it would probably be a waste of time to hold a formal discussion before acting.
:::::Under such a system, when someone feels that they want to be more involved in the decisions that are made by custodians and bureaucrats it is possible to increase the amount of discussion that is required before a particular type of action is taken. Also, custodian and bureaucrat actions are reversible. Even after an action has been made people can go back, question, discuss and correct. &quot;a democratic system ..... something like the Germans have&quot; &lt;-- can you explain what you mean? --[[User:JWSchmidt|JWSchmidt]] 19:39, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

::::::With the German system i mean what has been written at the start of this page ''german wikipedia has 2; set rule: 2/3 approval in community discussion of sysop candidates''.
::::::You wrote above ''We don't want mindless drones as bureaucrats''. This sounds nice, but it is hard to determine who is mindless and who is not.
::::::You wrote above ''When bureaucrats feel forced into taking action in the absence of community consensus there should at least be consensus among bureaucrats and a clear explanation to the community of why the action is being taken. It makes sense to me that any bureaucrat action that is not supported by prior community consensus should be open to critical evaluation by the community.'' Here the definition of community puzzles me. How is it possible that if a community can't reach consensus, and the bureacrats make the decision, that the same community is able to revert the decision, which will be hard if there is no consensus. In essence it means that the bureaucrats decide.--[[User:Daanschr|Daanschr]] 20:52, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

::::::I misread the line on the Germans. It deals with choosing sysops.--[[User:Daanschr|Daanschr]] 21:00, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

:::::::My attribution to this discussion was not very strong, so i will leave it up to others. It is an exiting moment in Dutch politics at the moment. There is a possibility that there will be no cabinet. (sorry, completely unrelated)--[[User:Daanschr|Daanschr]] 22:32, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

:::::::&quot;it is hard to determine who is mindless&quot; &lt;-- At the English language Wikipedia custodians and bureaucrats are expected to judged consensus by checking to see if votes are based on reasonable discussion and votes from accounts that look like puppet accounts created just to stack the vote do not have to be counted. Just counting votes without determining that the votes are reasonable and fair is &quot;mindless&quot;; you could have a bot do it. Sometimes action by a custodian or bureaucrat can attract much attention, so much so that an issue that previously did not come to consensus among a smaller group can be decided by the consensus of a larger group. --[[User:JWSchmidt|JWSchmidt]] 23:07, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

== All Quiet on the Western Front... ==

 Wikiversity:
 For want of the bureaucrats -
 Measured, yet subtle.
 
 A bureaucracy:
 Watching; not silent nor still -
 But careful with grace.

--[[User:HappyCamper|HappyCamper]] 05:21, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

:If bureaucrats try to be invisible and only deal with issues of civility, then that would be good for me. (I have read that book: very impressive)--[[User:Daanschr|Daanschr]] 08:21, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

== New draft - ideas and such ==

Great to see things moving along! I have a few ideas which might be handy. I think it would be a good idea to aim for a document which we can expect to remain stable for say, a year or so. Wikiversity is still reasonably young, and I think planning ahead with a time horizon of around 12-16 months in mind is not too unreasonable. This might help us focus on having this page meet Wikiversity's current needs, while leaving the door open to flexibility as the editing environment changes.

I think it might be easier to modify this draft if we discuss each section starting from top to bottom, with less emphasis between how the sections interrelate. Once we have done this, we can look at the resulting document as a whole to see if there are any inconsistencies between what is written and what our philosophies for the bureaucrat role should be. Roughly speaking, I think the discussions we had 4-5 months ago approached this page in the other direction, so it might be fruitful to try the another way.

What is written so far seems reasonable. The concerns I have at the moment are primarily &quot;semantic&quot; - I think we need to clarify certain things. For example, in the first section, what does &quot;well-trusted&quot; really mean? How about the word &quot;consensus&quot;? Or &quot;civility&quot;? Let me focus on trust in this thread.

I think there are two distinct notions here we should document - the first relates to bureaucratship, say, as an &quot;administrative role&quot;, and the second relates to bureaucrat as a &quot;representative role&quot;. In the former, the ideal bureaucrat is probably someone who generally interprets policy in such a way that maximizes consistency and minimizes surprise. That is, they act in a way which can be reasonably anticipated by the community. In the latter, the bureaucrat is someone who the community feels is a positive influence on Wikiversity, likely someone not particularly polarizing, with a well rounded knowledge of the site. The bureaucrat is someone who would be a good ambassador for Wikiversity.

However, even this brief sketch seems problematic as it seems to open the door to a policy where the bureaucrat bit can be granted relatively liberally. This in itself is not problematic - it is the fact that it seems inconsistent with what I think the bureaucrat role is intended to be (a little more selective) which makes it so. What's the best way to proceed? Perhaps this sketch is really a non-issue, but I thought it might be a good idea just to write this down. We should probably aim for policy which balances these concerns nicely, so that its consequences are manageable by the community. Enough writing for now! I will try shorter tidbits next time. --[[User:HappyCamper|HappyCamper]] 22:23, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

:&quot;planning ahead with a time horizon of around 12-16 months in mind is not too unreasonable&quot; &lt;-- In your thinking, is it likely that this &quot;time horizon&quot; will include a real Wikiversity crisis in which the project might benefit from having a good set of bcrat guidelines in place, rather than the alternative of the community struggling through a crisis without the aid of good guidelines and then getting around to making useful policy only after the crisis is over? By &quot;good guidelines &quot; I mean that we would be able to learn from challenges that have previously been faced by other wiki projects.--[[User:JWSchmidt|JWSchmidt]] 23:38, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

::Learning from previous challenges on other projects - this sounds like a learning project in its own right. :-) I think it would be great to pursue such a project - but there's also an inevitability about us having to learn through this process ourselves in this (local) context. We will never be able to learn everything in advance - nor prepare for every inevitability - but we should endeavour to have as much of the process as clearly defined as possible, always leaving room for fresh and critical thinking, judgement, and reflexivity. Part of this is working through what terms like [[Wikiversity:Consensus|&quot;consensus&quot;]] mean - and these policies should be as clear as possible while also leaving flexibility for rethinking them in new light. For example, the notion of &quot;reasonability&quot; is fundamental to most legal systems, but what being &quot;reasonable&quot; is is a very complex notion. I don't think we need to recreate an entire legal system, but rather develop a model of consensus that will work for as long as it needs to. Wikiversity's development over a timeframe of 12-16 months sounds good as a thought experiment to start off with, however. :-) [[User:Cormaggio|Cormaggio]] &lt;sup&gt;&lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Cormaggio|talk]]&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 00:29, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

:::Well, 12-16 months is arbitrary. Ideally, it would be nice if we could come up with something that would be workable for all time, but that does not seem achievable. So, I just picked a number that was less than infinity...something which seems manageable (at least to me). Basically, a neat concept to suggest that we should not try and solve all the possible problems that might crop up. I didn't think of the phrase &quot;thought experiment&quot;, but actually, that's a very nice way of putting it :-) I didn't have a potential Wikiversity crisis in mind when I wrote my previous post. I'll have to think about it, but maybe I'll offer an idea that perhaps a &quot;crisis&quot; on a Wiki generally turns policy into a source of polarization.

:::Here's another metaphor which might be useful. Originally, I thought that policies here would develop sort of like growing plants from seeds. A little water and sunlight (ie. edits to the page) here and there...and obviously, watching the plant mature. But it seems this is developing more like a piece of artwork, say, chiseling a stone sculpture. Start with a rough draft, and work away at it to get something useful. 

:::I feel like I am going in circles, so maybe let's sketch out a bureaucrat I think would be healthy for Wikiversity, and how they might work. Obviously, this isn't the only sort of bureaucrat that would be useful for Wikiversity, but I'll describe one which is easiest for me to do right now. So, let's see...the bureaucrat will be just a normal editor on almost all pages on Wikiversity, with the exception of those directly related to creating custodians. They will not see custodianship as a too much of a political process. Policies will tend to be seen as descriptive, not prescriptive. Possibly a wikignome by nature. They will incline on promoting liberally - particular, for those users who seem to be dedicated to generating content on Wikiversity. The custodial bit is seen as a source of convenience for users, not as a source of autonomy. Possibly see Wikiversity more in an &quot;eventualist&quot; light instead of &quot;immediatist&quot; one (or whatever the neologism is). Promotions don't need to happen on fixed schedules. Track record of dedication to the project. OK, so much for now. How does this sketch look? Is this a &quot;good&quot; bureaucrat for Wikiversity? --[[User:HappyCamper|HappyCamper]] 04:03, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

== Ambassador ==

Is there a better designation than [[w:Bureacrat|Bureacrat]]? Can this be changed to something like [[w:Ambassador|Ambassador]] at least for Wikiversity? [[User:CQ|CQ]] 14:21, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

==How many bureaucrats does Wikiversity need?==
How long is a piece of string? Any answer to this will be too vague, I feel. [[User:Cormaggio|Cormaggio]] &lt;sup&gt;&lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Cormaggio|talk]]&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 16:12, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
;Simpler question
Does Wikiversity need more than two bureaucrats?

*Wikinews has 5 bcrats, including Jimbo
*Wikibooks has 6, also including Jimbo
*Wiktionary has 5 bcrats
*wikimedia Commons has 9
*Wikiquote has 1 bureaucrat
*Wikisource has 1 bureaucrat
*Wikispecies has 9 bureaucrats
*the wikimedia meta-wiki has 18 bureaucrats

*englishh wikipedia has 24: &quot;gray area&quot; in bureaucrat judging of consensus in community discussion of sysop candidates
*german wikipedia has 2; set rule: 2/3 approval in community discussion of sysop candidates

==Call for bureaucrats==
Currently, we only have one active bureaucrat (Jtneill) and SB Johnny has recently returned but only temporarily. The other bureaucrats are currently non-active or intermittent. It would be preferable to have at least two active bureaucrats for a range of reasons. Personally, I am coming up soon to a very busy part of the university year and then a summer break. Who would you like to see as a WV bureaucrat? -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 02:05, 12 August 2010 (UTC)
:My first choice is Cormaggio. My second choice is Mikeu. I wish they would return. [[User:Ottava Rima|Ottava Rima]] ([[User talk:Ottava Rima|talk]])  02:50, 12 August 2010 (UTC)
::Darklama? [[User:Geoff Plourde|Geoff Plourde]] 06:48, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

: Bureaucratship and custodianship should be not so much unlaid as unpaid. How to keep them unlaid while anyone is too busy elsewhere? A KISS is she is to ''kiss'' a surrogate, proxy, or agent at her own risk. The current disruption here may be mainly attributable to bureaucracy of practical vacancy, I suspect. --&amp;nbsp;[[User:KYPark|KYPark]] [[User talk:KYPark|[T]]] 11:31, 12 August 2010 (UTC) &lt;!-- As per the time sequence, this comment is moved ahead of mikeu's that jutted out later and higher than this, strangely to me. Nevertheless, self-evidently, mikeu is responding to Jtneill and Ottava as well as KYPark is.  -- KYPark [T] 01:18, 13 August 2010 (UTC) --&gt;

Let me know what I can do to lighten the load, James. I do have a number of content projects that have been on the back burner for some time that I would like to get back to, so I'll be around a bit more the next few weeks and hopefully much more active from next month on.  Thanks, Ottava. --[[User:Mu301|mikeu]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Mu301|talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 16:59, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

== Appointing curators ==

Who is appointing Curators? They are not listed here nor for Custodian policy. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 18:38, 9 May 2026 (UTC)</text>
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      <text bytes="54035" sha1="gdxo7zc0ukzcn578pnzsbsntezxdovu" xml:space="preserve">The roles for bureaucrats are not the same at all Wikimedia Foundation projects. For example, one of the key duties of bureaucrats is to turn wiki users into sysops (called [[Wikiversity:Custodianship|custodians]] at Wikiversity). The Wikiversity community should decide if there is some set level of community support required for custodianship or if bureaucrats can exercise some discretion at the end of a community discussion about a candidate for custodianship. --[[User:JWSchmidt|JWSchmidt]] 23:39, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

== Responsibilities of bureaucrats ==

Well, before we can really begin drafting this policy, I think we first need to take a comprehensive look at the technical rights of bureaucrats, the &quot;non-technical&quot; rights of bureaucrats, and the responsibilities of bureaucrats on enwikiversity. 

*'''Technical rigts''': To get the obvious out of the way: bureaucrats are the only local user group capable of granting a user SysOp rights--the policy of when this permission can be used is covered (to some extent) in [[Wikiversity:Custodianship]], so I'm not sure this policy will need to elaborate much upon this. Bureaucrats are also the only local group capable of granting a user Bureaucrat status--the main purpose of this policy is to decide upon when they can and cannot do this. Among their other technical rights are the ability to rename local users and the ability to grant a user bot status. I think it very important that enwikiversity draft both a user renaming policy and a thorough [[Wikiversity:Bots|bot policy]], both of which we lack at the moment. 

*'''Non-technical rights''': On enwiki, we regard Bureaucrats as the ultimate judges of consensus--I believe we should maintain this idea in our Bureaucratship policy. Only bureacrats should be able to close requests for adminship and bureaucratship, approve or reject requests for name changes, and I would also like to propose that they be final authority in requests for bot status. While our focus here isn't a bot approvals process, I would suggest that we use a process similar to RfA for bot status, where users are granted bot status based upon community consensus and where the bureaucrats are the judges of this consensus.

*'''What crats can't do although it's logical to think that they could''': Bureaucrats do not have the technically ability nor the authority to revoke ''any'' user status--crat, bot, or sysop. Requests for desysopping and the like must go through the [[m:Stewards]]. Note that this issue is truly not one that can be debated--'twas set in stone long ago due to a crat gone mad on enwiki.

*'''Expectations of bureaucrats''': First and foremost, bureacrats must be well-trusted members of the community. They must have exceptional understanding of the way things work on Wikiversity and must be ''excellent'' judges of consensus. They must demonstrate through their extensive contributions to Wikiversity that they are not rash in decision-making nor incivil nor incompetent. Also of primary importance is a bureaucrat's ability to thoroughly explain and defend the decisions or he or she makes as well the ability to admit fault. 

Anyway this is just some random babbling/brainstorming. Please discuss :). [[User:AmiDaniel|AmiDaniel]] ([[User talk:AmiDaniel|talk]]) 07:22, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

:&lt;nowiki&gt;{{Subst:blabber-warning1-n|Wikiversity talk:Bureaucratship}}&lt;/nowiki&gt;, Yes, I'd agree with all of what you just said, infact with some rewording I say we have our policy draft ;) [[User:MichaelBillington|Michael Billington]] ([[User talk:MichaelBillington|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/MichaelBillington|contribs]]) 07:40, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

:At the end of community discussions about custodian candidates, should there be any room for judgment by bureaucrats or should they just just do what the community decides (for example, 2/3 approval from participants in the community discussion means automatic approval by the bureaucrats)? What happens if bureaucrats have a disagreement? Does Wikiversity need more than two bureaucrats? --[[User:JWSchmidt|JWSchmidt]] 02:31, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

::Well, we don't want mindless drones as bureaucrats, so I think it's good to advise that (at least some) judgement should be used. But I do think that 2 thirds sounds good as a guide, (that's around 67%), which although not a strong consensus, reflects a good majority. If there is a dispute then you just cut out any sock votes, and see if it is above or below 2/3, otherwise we can just trust their judgement. [[User:MichaelBillington|Michael Billington]] ([[User talk:MichaelBillington|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/MichaelBillington|contribs]]) 03:15, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

:::You know, there might be an advantage to keep this process entirely ambiguous. Suppose we declare a threshold of 50% promotion, but in practise, essentially near unanimous support is needed. No well meaning bureaucrat candidate would aim to get 50% support, because if they did, it would signify that they are not in tune with the public consciousness that oversees this site. --[[User:HappyCamper|HappyCamper]] 03:42, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

::::2/3 makes sense only if the participants have [[meta:consensus|agreed to disagree]].  If there is but one strong objection with reason, the discussion should continue.--[[User:Hillgentleman|Hillgentleman]]|[[User talk:hillgentleman|User talk]] 11:40, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

:::::I am in favour of having a minimum amount of votes, before a decision can be made. One of the problems on wikipedia is that the ones who create the articles are not the ones who make the decisions.--[[User:Daanschr|Daanschr]] 09:56, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
::::::Granted, Wikiversity isn't the place to fix the problems from Wikipedia though...but I do like the idea. One way to do this, is to set this threshold proportional to the number of active participants, and simply have the nomination open until it is met. There will be some technicalities involved, but might be worthwhile looking into. --[[User:HappyCamper|HappyCamper]] 15:32, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

(unindenting) I personally am not a fan of hardcoding rules about what percent of the populus needs to support someone for him to be made an admin. In theory, all custodianship &quot;elections&quot; should actually be ''discussions'' where the goal is attaining consensus, in which case the bureaucrat should then be required to not just look at numbers of supporters vs. opposers, but rather to thoroughly read through the discussion and determine what the true ''consensus'' of the community is. Nonetheless, that is often an idealist concept, and it may be a methodology that we will not be able to maintain for long. In any case, however, I belive that, though adminship is truly not a big deal, if ''one third'' or more of the community has good reason to oppose handing someone the mop, that person should not be made an admin--I would personally favor a much higher level of needed support (75-80%) before a Bureaucrat even considers making a user an admin. Codifying consensus clearly has its benefits--it spares crats a lot of work if they just have to look at numbers and it gives them an easy way to respond to disputes that arise about their actions, by simply citing numbers. But it is not the wiki way, nor should the task of bureaucrats simply be to count votes. I rather believe the most important quality of a prospective bureaucrat to be the ability to reasonably judge ''consensus'' without counting votes, the ability to make tough decisions, and the ability to adequately to defend oneself when making such decisions. That, I belive, should be our focus, rather than deciding what percentage of support constitutes consensus in all situations. Do keep in mind that [[m:Polling is evil]] and should be avoided where possible. Now to address Daanschr's concerns that &quot;the ones who create the articles are not the ones who make the decisions&quot;--I personally believe it best so; the major article writers tend to be the ones least concerned with administrivia such as blocking policies and deletion policies  and the tedious boring tasks of clearing categories such as [[w:CAT:NSD]]. The job of an administrator is to be well-versed in policy matters, to have excellent common sense, and to serve as diplomats in disputes--while writing featured articles is an excellent way to gain knowledge in how to deal with disputes, it is by far not the only way, and I find that the major article writers tend to be the least capable of maintaining neutrality. Note as well that administrative permissions provide you, in theory at least, with no higher status in the community, no more influence in policy matters, and certainly not any extra tools to help you write better articles. Administrators are just that--administrators; they deal with administrative issues. Similarly, Bureaucrats deal with bureaucratic issues such as renaming users, flagging bots, and processing requests for adminship. Neither admins nor bureaucrats nor checkusers nor any other user group should have any greater influence over individual articles nor the policies governing all users and articles than any other user. Okay, ending babbling now. :D [[User:AmiDaniel|AmiDaniel]] ([[User talk:AmiDaniel|talk]]) 18:01, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

:I don't like the idea of always trying to get consensus. The result of this is unending discussions on policy and a conservative, defensive community. I would prefer to have a system which can be able to changed things. Such a system could be top-down with a clear leader, who can make tough decisions, a kind of democratic system where majorities can overrule minorities, or a corporate system where institutes within Wikiversity can have a say on policy. It depends on what Wikiversity will try to become. At the moment it is not clear at all what it will be.--[[User:Daanschr|Daanschr]] 18:18, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

::And contrarily, the concept of a top-down hierarchial power structure sends shivers up my spine, as no individual, or even group of individuals, can possibly have the best know-how in all situations. I find that, in a wiki structure, discussion seems to be the best way at attaining results, as it allows for people's opinions to be influenced, allows for more equality among membrs of the community, and helps to prevent narrow, dogmatic views on issues. Sure, it takes longer, but I find the results tend to be much more beneficial. Note as well that by consensus I don't mean that everyone has to agree upon something for it to be done, but rather that decisions should be made by the community as a whole rather than just a handful of individuals, or even a narrow majority of the community. [[User:AmiDaniel|AmiDaniel]] ([[User talk:AmiDaniel|talk]]) 18:31, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

:::I don't believe very much in individualism. People are very conformistic regardless of rhetorics to promote individualism. I agree with you that the group of people who decide shouldn't be too small. The process of decision-making should be as inclusive as possible, but inclusiveness doesn't necessarily have to be individualistic.--[[User:Daanschr|Daanschr]] 19:04, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

::::Wikiversity is a wiki, which means that it must work as a collaborative process. The best means to maintaining the motivation and participation of all involved in a wiki is to recognise that there is often a diversity of points of view, and that this diversity needs to be reflected in the consensus-of-the-time (which can itself be discussed and changed). We have to recognise that individuals bring particular viewpoints to the community, and that individuals have needs in terms of being heard, being valued etc. So we must place some value in individualism. But we are also here to create a collaborative project - which means we need to be able to listen to one another, discuss openly, and sometimes take criticism. All of this applies to anyone - including custodians and bureaucrats. But we can't give up our base of consensus - otherwise it would not be a truly collaborative project. [[User:Cormaggio|Cormaggio]] &lt;sup&gt;&lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Cormaggio|talk]]&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 20:20, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

:::::Having said that, we should state that consensus has its limitations - it can be misused, and it can be misinterpreted. I think it's a risk that Wiki participants implicitly accept. --[[User:HappyCamper|HappyCamper]] 22:43, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

:&lt;b&gt;Polling is not evil.&lt;/b&gt;  It is a concise way to evaluate a large group's weighted position.  Anyone claiming to be able to accurately judge the &quot;consensus&quot; of a large group discussion without some kind of a straw poll ....   Further, it is unlikely that a large fraction of participants at wikiversity will actually care enough about who operates the mops to participate repeatedly in &quot;consensus&quot; building.  Sometimes, temporary closure can be a beautiful thing.  I think initially most administrative functions, including bureaucrat status, should be fairly easily attained and moderately easily removed if people so trusted cannot learn to wield their priveleges/responsibilities effectively.   This was the case when Wikipedia was a startup and helped grow the community and encyclopedia to critical mass.  Of course, Wikipedia had a formal clearcut organizational structure that was fairly flat.  There was the God King, the developers, everyone else.  Adminship was essentially the result of having sufficient experience with the wiki and the community to be trusted to avoid really foolish blunders and trusted to be willing to help fix mistakes.  At the moment Wikiversity is vertically taller than early Wikipedia was by approximately a Board of Directors, a committee, and possibly an informal subcommittee, stewards and bureaurcrats and custodians.  Custodianship is not automatic after an initial introduction period.   Anybody think this tall fuzzy infrastructure is helpful in retaining newcomers?  How could we emulate the early structure of Wikipedia?  Well perhaps once a year we could have a vote for an honorary &quot;God King&quot; who could occasionally decide tough issues for the community (those urgently requiring dramatic prompt action for the greater good or at least to avoid the greater bad ...) but usually keep quiet and let the community argue it out.  Obviously our &quot;God King&quot; would not have the real authority that Jimbo started out with and has carefully preserved by stacking the Wikimedia Foundation board .... still I expect the Board (or a committee or a steward or a local bureaucrat or a local participant) might listen carefully when the honorary Wikiversity God King speaks regarding Wikiversity issues considering the position as a community spokesperson has been numerically substantiated by a majority of the votes cast determined legitimate and counted.   Perhaps we should include term limits or restrict the candidates to former bureaucrats???  Notice that if you consider voting evil that can dramatically reduce the voting.  One vote once a year and then the God King can help sort it all out by deciding the &quot;consensus&quot;.  No further straw polls required, unless of course the God King requests one.  [[User:71.161.11.162|71.161.11.162]] 07:47, 11 December 2006 (UTC) ([[User:Mirwin|Mirwin]])

:::Hey, hold on there...what I wrote should not be interpreted as commentary on the voting process - that was not what I had in mind at all. --[[User:HappyCamper|HappyCamper]] 15:18, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

::The structure of Wikiversity is no more hierarchical/vertical than any other Wikimedia project. What it seems you're confusing it with is the structure of Wikimedia - which is a quite separate sphere of activity to the running of this project. No project has created their own GodKing, and I believe it would be entirely inappropriate to create such a thing. Consensus isn't that hard to ascertain - if there is opposition, it will be clear on the relevant pages. If needs be, polls can certainly be used to gauge opinion. But I think you're misinterpreting the gist of the maxim &quot;voting/polls is/are evil&quot;, which should really read something like: &quot;Votes/polls can be divisive, and they should be used sparingly, with caution, and after substantial discussion, and their results should not be taken as necessarily indicating a majority or a consensus within the community&quot;. [[User:Cormaggio|Cormaggio]] &lt;sup&gt;&lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Cormaggio|talk]]&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 15:12, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

:::'''voting'''. One of the bad things that happens with polls is that they are often started before there has been any serious discussion of a topic. In a wiki, votes do not constructively substitute for discussion, collaboration and compromise. I trust both custodians and bureaucrats to discount any votes that are not closely coupled to a an argument that explains the reasoning behind the vote. --[[User:JWSchmidt|JWSchmidt]] 16:02, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

::::I don't agree that this should be the decision of the custodians and bureaucrats. I am more in favour of a system of checks and balances. The rights and duties of all involved should be clearly defined.--[[User:Daanschr|Daanschr]] 09:47, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

:::::I am familiar and comfortable with [[w:Wikipedia:Consensus]]. I guess Wikiversity needs [[Wikiversity:Consensus]] in order to make clear how this project will deal with consensus and any proposed &quot;system of checks and balances&quot;. --[[User:JWSchmidt|JWSchmidt]] 16:38, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

== informed action by bureaucrats ==

#&quot;we don't want mindless drones as bureaucrats&quot;
#&quot;the bureaucrat should read through the discussion and determine what the true consensus of the community is&quot;
#&quot;of primary importance is a bureaucrat's ability to thoroughly explain and defend the decisions or he or she makes as well the ability to admit fault&quot;
#paraphrase: sometimes the search for community consensus can bog down and bureaucrats just need to &quot;cut the knot&quot; and act

I think the &quot;logic&quot; of the above line of reasoning (points 1-4) rests on one additional idea that should be made explicit. A wiki bureaucrat should have a good understanding of the mission of the wiki and a willingness to put the success of the project ahead of consensus. Bureaucrats are in a position to do so by '''not''' acting when they are asked to act. If a bureaucrat feels that a requested action would do more harm than good, the bureaucrat can discuss the requested action before acting. &quot;[[w:Ochlocracy|Mob rule]]&quot; is a potential danger in any human social system that is guided by consensus. Bureaucrats can function as a check on this danger. Bureaucrats should be experienced wiki users who are always watching for situations in which the community might be rushing into a poor decision that does not really serve the long-term interests of the project. Also, too close adherence to policy can create problems. For example, if on the last scheduled day of a community discussion some new evidence is provided, it might be wise to extend the discussion rather than close it at the scheduled time. When bureaucrats are willing to do what is best for the project '''and''' explain what they are doing it can allow the community to be thoughtful and possibly avoid rushing into a regrettable course of action. Item #4 in the list (acting without consensus, above) is a bit trickier than failure to act. When bureaucrats feel forced into taking action in the absence of community consensus there should at least be consensus among bureaucrats and a clear explanation to the community of why the action is being taken. It makes sense to me that any bureaucrat action that is not supported by prior community consensus should be open to critical evaluation by the community. There was an interesting case at the English Wikipedia in which bureaucrats &quot;broke the rules&quot; in deciding to grant adminship to a candidate who had an unusually low level of community support. I think the Wikiversity community needs to give some thought to the best way to deal with that kind of situation. --[[User:JWSchmidt|JWSchmidt]] 19:47, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

:If precedent needs to be made, the bureaucrat better be in a position to justify this rigorously. If they cannot do this, a decision to not take action should have been taken. There is no reason why things need to be rushed here. --[[User:HappyCamper|HappyCamper]] 19:56, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

:I understand that sometimes a bureaucrat needs to act when, for example, quick action is needed but the participants are still debating which course of action to take.  I also understand that sometimes a bureaucrat may ''refuse to  act''.  But I cannot accept a bureaucrat ''acting contrarily'' to community opinion.  Even consensus amongst bureaucrats is not enough excuse.----[[User:Hillgentleman|Hillgentleman]]|[[User talk:hillgentleman|Talk]] 23:23, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

::I suppose we could make a list of everything that can &quot;trump&quot; community consensus. For example, sometimes the Wikimedia Foundation central office makes a sudden decision (such as deleting a wiki page or placing an editing ban on an individual) based on the need to protect the Foundation from legal attack or threats of legal attack. Also, there are some standing Wikimedia Foundation policies that pertain to all Wikimedia Foundation projects. I do not think we can expect a bureaucrat to simply bow to community consensus if the bureaucrat knows that there is a good reason not to initiate an action called for by a community discussion. Simply put, it is possible for community consensus to fail to identify the best course of action and it is not reasonable to tell bureaucrats that they must '''always''' do what community consensus calls for. This is similar to saying that a soldier follows orders but does have to follow an order that involves doing something illegal. However, such situations where a bureaucrat might contradict community consensus are extraordinary. For the vast majority of bureaucrat actions there is no conflict with community consensus or likelihood that anyone would ever question the action. --[[User:JWSchmidt|JWSchmidt]] 02:44, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

:::I agree with JWSchmidt that the interest of Wikiversity should be above the interest of single individuals who damage the whole project. However, too much autocratic power for bureaucrats can be damaging as well.--[[User:Daanschr|Daanschr]] 07:59, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

::::Since bureaucrats are volunteers too, I think it should be obvious that a bureaucrat can always refuse to act.  The community can always appeal the the higher hiearchy to activate some additional bureaucrats with diverse views if a cabal of consistently agreeing bureaucrats seem to consistently take action opposing the &quot;consensus&quot; of the rest of the Wikiversity community within the scope of discussion.  (I assume literature students will not be interested in dictating how engineering sections implement local java labs for finite element analysis ... unless it effects their online response from Wikimedia servers.) Just as the rest of the community participants can bow out at will and go do something else.  We probably should define what &quot;consensus&quot; means locally.   Some people seem to mean a simple majority while others seem to hold out for unanimous and yet others prefer a fuzzy definition preserving the bureaucrats independence and ability to summarize and act as they see fit.  Meanwhile, the &quot;voting is evil&quot; faction seems to prefer guessing while my own &quot;voting is ok&quot; faction prefers concise quantitative data summarizing the final instantaneous result of the discussions.   [[User:71.161.11.162|71.161.11.162]] 08:09, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
:::::I find it interesting that [http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Consensus this page about consensus] makes no attempt to define a numerical measure of consensus. --[[User:JWSchmidt|JWSchmidt]] 16:14, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

==should admins be good editors and contributors?==
I think this is an important issue and I am glad it was raised during a discussion of how bureaucrats should function as part of the process of selecting new custodians. There is danger in having custodians who do not create Wikiversity content. Such custodians can be out of touch with the difficulties faced by wiki participants while they are learning how to contribute to the project. When dealing with edits that are not obvious vandalism and that seem not to fit into the project, all custodians have to try to [[Wikiversity:Assume Good Faith|Assume Good Faith]]. A custodian who does not participate in content creation might be more likely to just roll back a strange edit or delete an unusual page without taking the time to find out what the original contributor of that content was trying to accomplish. Sometimes new editors are trying to contribute and they need help to learn how, not a swift kick from a custodian. Sometimes people show up at Wikiversity and express a desire to fight vandalism while showing no particular interest in contributing to the project. Should bureaucrats simply refuse to grant custodianship to such a candidate? --[[User:JWSchmidt|JWSchmidt]] 19:47, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

:Absolutely. --[[User:HappyCamper|HappyCamper]] 19:53, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

::But Wikipedia has been open to another type of administrator....folks who do very little work to create encyclopedia articles while doing a lot of work to revert vandalism. Should Wikiversity exclude this type of contributor from custodianship? ([http://blog.ericgoldman.org/archives/2006/12/wikipedia_will_1.htm this might be relevant]) --[[User:JWSchmidt|JWSchmidt]] 21:41, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

:::Absolutely not. --[[User:HappyCamper|HappyCamper]] 22:14, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

::::I should not be using these qualifiers because they misrepresent the complexity of the situation that we're trying to address. --[[User:HappyCamper|HappyCamper]] 22:14, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

:&quot;''folks doing very little course work...''&quot; -- Every custodian should have participated actively in ''at least one'' learning project.--[[User:Hillgentleman|Hillgentleman]]|[[User talk:hillgentleman|Talk]] 23:46, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

== So it seems... ==

So, from what I gather so far, it seems that the direction we are headed is that someone that is a bureaucrat plays a significantly more important role than a custodian. Is this assessment correct? --[[User:HappyCamper|HappyCamper]] 19:57, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

:I think that is an unavoidable conclusion. However, the ''extent'' to which bureaucrats should have the power to, for example, carry through or block community decisions is not at all decided (it has only just been mentioned) - so the &quot;significantly more important&quot; part still needs to be qualified. Personally, I wouldn't like to exaggerate this importance - as I believe a bureaucrat's ''main'' role is to act as an implementer of due process (eg. making custodians, closing custodian discussions) - ''within a consensus model''. [[User:Cormaggio|Cormaggio]] &lt;sup&gt;&lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Cormaggio|talk]]&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 20:29, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

::I think that if we bothered to do a study of bureaucrat actions within Wikimedia Foundation projects we would find that the vast majority of bureaucrat actions are based on consensus and/or are never seriously questioned or discussed as being inappropriate. The excitement only comes on those rare occasions when something unusual happens. Can Wikiversity learn from what has happened in the past at other projects or do we just have to wait until our own conflicts arise? Alternatively, do we just reject the idea that &quot;we don't want mindless drones as bureaucrats&quot; and insist that bureaucrats function as drones who only throw the switches after enough votes have been cast? --[[User:JWSchmidt|JWSchmidt]] 20:51, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

:::I doubt if anyone would endorse a &quot;mindless&quot; flicking of the switch - the bureaucrat's actions (to carry out or oppose a community decision) need to be justified - ''particularly'' the latter (which I hope wouldn't arise). [[User:Cormaggio|Cormaggio]] &lt;sup&gt;&lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Cormaggio|talk]]&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 21:24, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
::::In fact, I think the rule has to be more than just &quot;bureaucrats who act without first attaining the usual level of community consensus need to be ready to explain their action&quot;. The rule should be something like &quot;an explanation for the action must be provided along with evidence that the action is based on consensus among a specified group of bureaucrats&quot;. I think the real problems have arisen at Wikipedia when  bureaucrats have adopted a &quot;bunker mentality&quot;, do not try to explain their actions until forced to do so, and call people who questions their actions &quot;troll&quot;. This kind of behavior has been rare, but it is very destructive to a sense of community, even if the controversial bureaucrat action was correct. --[[User:JWSchmidt|JWSchmidt]] 22:02, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

:::::I started this thread because I feel uncomfortable with the emerging view of what a bureaucrat is on Wikiversity to date. I'm still thinking about this thread... --[[User:HappyCamper|HappyCamper]] 22:37, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

::::::I don't understand the idea that bureaucrats can be mindless drones. I guess that it will be impossible for bureaucrats to explain all actions to everyone when the organization grows into a huge moloch like Wikipedia. A friend of mine is admin on Wikipedia and he says that nothing will change there in how the organization is ruled. Well, that is very easy to maintain. But what if change can be considered as good. There needs to be a political system that can be open to change. Being open to change means having to deal with serious resentment, in which consensus and open discussion will not be possible anymore.

::::::Before preceding, i would like to keep in mind the goal of Wikiversity and the organizations within it. How is this discussion going to relate to the establishment of schools and courses, advocating interlingual debates, establishing learning materials? The constitution of Wikiversity should be able to support the organization in its daily functioning. To cast an idea: A corporate system could be that decisions are taken by the schools and by groups who organize debates, thereby circumventing those who only take part in discussions at the top of the establishment as seems to be the practise at Wikipedia.--[[User:Daanschr|Daanschr]] 08:19, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

:::::::''JWSchmidt'': I agree that such a &quot;bunker mentality&quot; could be very destructive to this community. I would not like to have to make any decision which alienated a subset of this community. I furthermore think that hierarchical structures could undermine the whole process of seeking consensus, which is fundamental to our work. Any view of a bureaucrat's &quot;power&quot; ''must'' be embedded ''within'' this model, not somehow supplanting it.
:::::::''HappyCamper'': I'm worried. What emerging view of bureaucratship are you uncomfortable with? I really want you to feel free to express your thoughts openly. Does my above note address your fears at all?
:::::::''Daanschr'': I think change is fundamental to our entire modus operandi, even our raison d'etre (my second time using that phrase in two days!). I think it would be terrible to recreate a system that made participants feel they could make no lasting impact on the project - even if this belief was misguided. But, while I completely endorse the development of a whole system that would sustain this project, I'm a little confused by your idea here - what decisions would need to be taken at the school level that would require custodian or bureaucrat input? [[User:Cormaggio|Cormaggio]] &lt;sup&gt;&lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Cormaggio|talk]]&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 14:47, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

For instance how the policy of [[Wikiversity:Cite sources|citing]] and [[Wikiversity:Verifiability|verifying]] [[Wikiversity:Reliable sources|reliable sources]] can be implemented. But also how [[Learning to learn a wiki way]], [[Wikiversity:Scholarly ethics|Scholarly Ethics]] or my idea of trying to gain the respect of the academic world can be implemented. This can also be decided for at school level, so each school can determine for itself on how to use it or by not using it at all.

Happycamper, i quess the stewarts of the Wikimedia Foundation are still in charge here. When a bureaucrat behaves in such a way that it damages the community considerably, then the stewarts can interphere isn't it? It would be funny if that is the case. The whole Wiki community would serve like a medieval monastic order.--[[User:Daanschr|Daanschr]] 15:26, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

:The stewards typically do not intervene unless requested by the community - in fact, I think they are instructed not to ever jump in. ''Daanschr'', actually, you raise quite a good point, so maybe we should share some ideas on a different page regarding academics and such. I think I have a fairly good idea what your concerns are. Maybe after this bureaucrat thing is done we can talk more. I don't know if I can keep up with two different threads. ''Cormaggio'' - not to worry, I was happy to read your posts. --[[User:HappyCamper|HappyCamper]] 16:26, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

::I would be happy to start such a page.--[[User:Daanschr|Daanschr]] 10:14, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

:::Such a page would be excellent to have. What about [[Wikiversity:Academic standards]], [[Wikiversity:Methodology]], or [[Wikiversity:Scholarly practice]]? Alternatively (or, perhaps, in parallel), we could develop [[Wikiversity:Scholarly ethics]], [[Wikiversity:Academic freedom]], [[Wikiversity:Verifiability]], [[Wikiversity:Cite sources]], [[Wikiversity:Reliable sources]], [[Wikiversity:Wikiversity outreach]], or others which I may have temporarily forgotten.. [[User:Cormaggio|Cormaggio]] &lt;sup&gt;&lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Cormaggio|talk]]&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 16:26, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

::::Academic standards sounds good, or what about 'academic expertise'?--[[User:Daanschr|Daanschr]] 18:27, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

To give a little insight into why the model for RfA we have here was chosen: an experience I and others have made in other projects is that the process for attaining adminship can become exceedingly arduous and personal. More often than not it ends up consisting of an evaluation of a user's entire history of contributions rather than their fitness for adminship. This is partially due to the fact that at most other projects there's usually no concrete experience with the user exercising admin features prior to the RfA. So the community is forced to use other points of reference to evaluate the candidate.

At Wikiversity, we've created a process that's different from that. Candidates for custodianship are required to be mentored for four weeks, after which they are evaluated by their mentor. The point of this process is for a candidate to have the opportunity to exercise custodian tools and demonstrate the way in which they would conduct themselves as full custodians. If the mentor provides a favorable recommendation, the candidate can apply for full custodianship, subject to community discussion. The final decision in this matter lies with the bureaucrats who are expected to evaluate the mentorship period, the recommendation and community feedback. It's not so much a question of consensus but of informed decision-making considering the interests of Wikiversity as a collaborative project as the highest priority. For other issues, I would expect for bureaucrats to act in the same thoughtful and constructive manner. [[User:sebmol|sebmol]] [[User talk:sebmol|&lt;sup&gt;?&lt;/sup&gt;]] 16:49, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

:&quot;trying to gain the respect of the academic world&quot; &lt;-- I think many people outside of the wiki world are baffled by how wikis function. It is natural for people to assume that wiki &quot;support staff&quot; somehow have special control over the content of Wikimedia Foundation project wikis. There is actually a more subtle and  interesting relationship between the special tasks that can be performed only by &quot;[[Wikiversity:Support staff|Support staff]]&quot; and the &quot;real work&quot; that is done by all wiki participants to actually develop the project. The term &quot;custodian&quot; was selected as the Wikiversity term for &quot;sysop&quot; partly in an attempt to stress the idea that it is not a very exciting position to hold. Picture custodians who quietly sweep the floor when a school is closed at the end of the day. My hope is that if we can do a good job of engineering the Wikiversity rules for support staff then it will be possible for custodians and bureaucrats to be almost invisible to the bulk of the community. Most wikiversity participants should be able to get on with the &quot;real work&quot; of the wiki and all they need to know is how to do is call a custodian in case a toilet blocks up and some mopping is needed. While we can strive to make &quot;support staff&quot; invisible, every action taken by wiki &quot;support staff&quot; needs to be open to review; if there is ever a problem caused by &quot;support staff&quot; then the community needs to be able to correct it. At Wikipedia there are occasionally calls for some kind of formal oversight for &quot;support staff&quot; such as periodic performance reviews. The system that has developed to deal with &quot;support staff&quot; problems is more adversarial and crisis-oriented. If someone perceives a problem with Wikipedia &quot;support staff&quot; then in order to correct it seems like there often has to be a formal and legalistic case brought before the arbitration committee. One way that &quot;support staff&quot; can get in the &quot;dog house&quot; is by trying to use their special tools to take control of wiki content. The bottom line is, &quot;support staff&quot; can only indirectly influence &quot;respect of the academic world&quot; by keeping a clean house within Wikiversity (cleaning up vandalism, etc). It is really up to &quot;regular&quot; Wikiversity participants to gain the respect of the academic world. However, it may be useful for Wikiversity to create a new type of &quot;functionary&quot; that can specialize for &quot;professional&quot; contacts with the academic world. There are some ideas along this line [[Wikiversity:Review board#Ambassadorial function|here]]. --[[User:JWSchmidt|JWSchmidt]] 17:37, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

::If the scholarly ethics will be enforced by the support staff, then their roll will not be invisible. Do you mean with invisible that the support staff will only be concerned with fighting vandalism? The arbitration comittee has made decisions which are questionable. I wouldn't like to have such an institution on Wikiversity.--[[User:Daanschr|Daanschr]] 10:14, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

:::I think that, on scholarly ethics and all other principles of good practice here, while they are vital to developing a high quality resource, I don't think they are of immediate relevance to this discussion on what bureaucrats/support staff should do. Bureaucrats and custodians should not get involved ''in their capacities as support staff'' in the implementation of such policies - they should get involved in discussing such policies and applying them as completely equal community members. As far as I can see it, the only policies that would be of direct relevance to a bureaucrat's or custodian's position would be those around civility - and even then, it is still a ''community'' issue, to perhaps be implemented by a member of the &quot;support staff&quot;. What other types of policies could be enforceable by support staff? [[User:Cormaggio|Cormaggio]] &lt;sup&gt;&lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Cormaggio|talk]]&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 16:26, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

::::I am in favour of a democratic system at the moment, something like the Germans have. A system that ensures that change is possible and at the same time makes it possible that as much of people as possible are directly included in making decisions.--[[User:Daanschr|Daanschr]] 18:15, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

:::::Speaking generally, there are two types of actions taken by custodians and bureaucrats:
:::::1) actions that are best taken after a group of people have thought about them and discussed the matter
:::::2) actions that are so trivial that it would probably be a waste of time to hold a formal discussion before acting.
:::::Under such a system, when someone feels that they want to be more involved in the decisions that are made by custodians and bureaucrats it is possible to increase the amount of discussion that is required before a particular type of action is taken. Also, custodian and bureaucrat actions are reversible. Even after an action has been made people can go back, question, discuss and correct. &quot;a democratic system ..... something like the Germans have&quot; &lt;-- can you explain what you mean? --[[User:JWSchmidt|JWSchmidt]] 19:39, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

::::::With the German system i mean what has been written at the start of this page ''german wikipedia has 2; set rule: 2/3 approval in community discussion of sysop candidates''.
::::::You wrote above ''We don't want mindless drones as bureaucrats''. This sounds nice, but it is hard to determine who is mindless and who is not.
::::::You wrote above ''When bureaucrats feel forced into taking action in the absence of community consensus there should at least be consensus among bureaucrats and a clear explanation to the community of why the action is being taken. It makes sense to me that any bureaucrat action that is not supported by prior community consensus should be open to critical evaluation by the community.'' Here the definition of community puzzles me. How is it possible that if a community can't reach consensus, and the bureacrats make the decision, that the same community is able to revert the decision, which will be hard if there is no consensus. In essence it means that the bureaucrats decide.--[[User:Daanschr|Daanschr]] 20:52, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

::::::I misread the line on the Germans. It deals with choosing sysops.--[[User:Daanschr|Daanschr]] 21:00, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

:::::::My attribution to this discussion was not very strong, so i will leave it up to others. It is an exiting moment in Dutch politics at the moment. There is a possibility that there will be no cabinet. (sorry, completely unrelated)--[[User:Daanschr|Daanschr]] 22:32, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

:::::::&quot;it is hard to determine who is mindless&quot; &lt;-- At the English language Wikipedia custodians and bureaucrats are expected to judged consensus by checking to see if votes are based on reasonable discussion and votes from accounts that look like puppet accounts created just to stack the vote do not have to be counted. Just counting votes without determining that the votes are reasonable and fair is &quot;mindless&quot;; you could have a bot do it. Sometimes action by a custodian or bureaucrat can attract much attention, so much so that an issue that previously did not come to consensus among a smaller group can be decided by the consensus of a larger group. --[[User:JWSchmidt|JWSchmidt]] 23:07, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

== All Quiet on the Western Front... ==

 Wikiversity:
 For want of the bureaucrats -
 Measured, yet subtle.
 
 A bureaucracy:
 Watching; not silent nor still -
 But careful with grace.

--[[User:HappyCamper|HappyCamper]] 05:21, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

:If bureaucrats try to be invisible and only deal with issues of civility, then that would be good for me. (I have read that book: very impressive)--[[User:Daanschr|Daanschr]] 08:21, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

== New draft - ideas and such ==

Great to see things moving along! I have a few ideas which might be handy. I think it would be a good idea to aim for a document which we can expect to remain stable for say, a year or so. Wikiversity is still reasonably young, and I think planning ahead with a time horizon of around 12-16 months in mind is not too unreasonable. This might help us focus on having this page meet Wikiversity's current needs, while leaving the door open to flexibility as the editing environment changes.

I think it might be easier to modify this draft if we discuss each section starting from top to bottom, with less emphasis between how the sections interrelate. Once we have done this, we can look at the resulting document as a whole to see if there are any inconsistencies between what is written and what our philosophies for the bureaucrat role should be. Roughly speaking, I think the discussions we had 4-5 months ago approached this page in the other direction, so it might be fruitful to try the another way.

What is written so far seems reasonable. The concerns I have at the moment are primarily &quot;semantic&quot; - I think we need to clarify certain things. For example, in the first section, what does &quot;well-trusted&quot; really mean? How about the word &quot;consensus&quot;? Or &quot;civility&quot;? Let me focus on trust in this thread.

I think there are two distinct notions here we should document - the first relates to bureaucratship, say, as an &quot;administrative role&quot;, and the second relates to bureaucrat as a &quot;representative role&quot;. In the former, the ideal bureaucrat is probably someone who generally interprets policy in such a way that maximizes consistency and minimizes surprise. That is, they act in a way which can be reasonably anticipated by the community. In the latter, the bureaucrat is someone who the community feels is a positive influence on Wikiversity, likely someone not particularly polarizing, with a well rounded knowledge of the site. The bureaucrat is someone who would be a good ambassador for Wikiversity.

However, even this brief sketch seems problematic as it seems to open the door to a policy where the bureaucrat bit can be granted relatively liberally. This in itself is not problematic - it is the fact that it seems inconsistent with what I think the bureaucrat role is intended to be (a little more selective) which makes it so. What's the best way to proceed? Perhaps this sketch is really a non-issue, but I thought it might be a good idea just to write this down. We should probably aim for policy which balances these concerns nicely, so that its consequences are manageable by the community. Enough writing for now! I will try shorter tidbits next time. --[[User:HappyCamper|HappyCamper]] 22:23, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

:&quot;planning ahead with a time horizon of around 12-16 months in mind is not too unreasonable&quot; &lt;-- In your thinking, is it likely that this &quot;time horizon&quot; will include a real Wikiversity crisis in which the project might benefit from having a good set of bcrat guidelines in place, rather than the alternative of the community struggling through a crisis without the aid of good guidelines and then getting around to making useful policy only after the crisis is over? By &quot;good guidelines &quot; I mean that we would be able to learn from challenges that have previously been faced by other wiki projects.--[[User:JWSchmidt|JWSchmidt]] 23:38, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

::Learning from previous challenges on other projects - this sounds like a learning project in its own right. :-) I think it would be great to pursue such a project - but there's also an inevitability about us having to learn through this process ourselves in this (local) context. We will never be able to learn everything in advance - nor prepare for every inevitability - but we should endeavour to have as much of the process as clearly defined as possible, always leaving room for fresh and critical thinking, judgement, and reflexivity. Part of this is working through what terms like [[Wikiversity:Consensus|&quot;consensus&quot;]] mean - and these policies should be as clear as possible while also leaving flexibility for rethinking them in new light. For example, the notion of &quot;reasonability&quot; is fundamental to most legal systems, but what being &quot;reasonable&quot; is is a very complex notion. I don't think we need to recreate an entire legal system, but rather develop a model of consensus that will work for as long as it needs to. Wikiversity's development over a timeframe of 12-16 months sounds good as a thought experiment to start off with, however. :-) [[User:Cormaggio|Cormaggio]] &lt;sup&gt;&lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Cormaggio|talk]]&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 00:29, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

:::Well, 12-16 months is arbitrary. Ideally, it would be nice if we could come up with something that would be workable for all time, but that does not seem achievable. So, I just picked a number that was less than infinity...something which seems manageable (at least to me). Basically, a neat concept to suggest that we should not try and solve all the possible problems that might crop up. I didn't think of the phrase &quot;thought experiment&quot;, but actually, that's a very nice way of putting it :-) I didn't have a potential Wikiversity crisis in mind when I wrote my previous post. I'll have to think about it, but maybe I'll offer an idea that perhaps a &quot;crisis&quot; on a Wiki generally turns policy into a source of polarization.

:::Here's another metaphor which might be useful. Originally, I thought that policies here would develop sort of like growing plants from seeds. A little water and sunlight (ie. edits to the page) here and there...and obviously, watching the plant mature. But it seems this is developing more like a piece of artwork, say, chiseling a stone sculpture. Start with a rough draft, and work away at it to get something useful. 

:::I feel like I am going in circles, so maybe let's sketch out a bureaucrat I think would be healthy for Wikiversity, and how they might work. Obviously, this isn't the only sort of bureaucrat that would be useful for Wikiversity, but I'll describe one which is easiest for me to do right now. So, let's see...the bureaucrat will be just a normal editor on almost all pages on Wikiversity, with the exception of those directly related to creating custodians. They will not see custodianship as a too much of a political process. Policies will tend to be seen as descriptive, not prescriptive. Possibly a wikignome by nature. They will incline on promoting liberally - particular, for those users who seem to be dedicated to generating content on Wikiversity. The custodial bit is seen as a source of convenience for users, not as a source of autonomy. Possibly see Wikiversity more in an &quot;eventualist&quot; light instead of &quot;immediatist&quot; one (or whatever the neologism is). Promotions don't need to happen on fixed schedules. Track record of dedication to the project. OK, so much for now. How does this sketch look? Is this a &quot;good&quot; bureaucrat for Wikiversity? --[[User:HappyCamper|HappyCamper]] 04:03, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

== Ambassador ==

Is there a better designation than [[w:Bureacrat|Bureacrat]]? Can this be changed to something like [[w:Ambassador|Ambassador]] at least for Wikiversity? [[User:CQ|CQ]] 14:21, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

==How many bureaucrats does Wikiversity need?==
How long is a piece of string? Any answer to this will be too vague, I feel. [[User:Cormaggio|Cormaggio]] &lt;sup&gt;&lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Cormaggio|talk]]&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 16:12, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
;Simpler question
Does Wikiversity need more than two bureaucrats?

*Wikinews has 5 bcrats, including Jimbo
*Wikibooks has 6, also including Jimbo
*Wiktionary has 5 bcrats
*wikimedia Commons has 9
*Wikiquote has 1 bureaucrat
*Wikisource has 1 bureaucrat
*Wikispecies has 9 bureaucrats
*the wikimedia meta-wiki has 18 bureaucrats

*englishh wikipedia has 24: &quot;gray area&quot; in bureaucrat judging of consensus in community discussion of sysop candidates
*german wikipedia has 2; set rule: 2/3 approval in community discussion of sysop candidates

==Call for bureaucrats==
Currently, we only have one active bureaucrat (Jtneill) and SB Johnny has recently returned but only temporarily. The other bureaucrats are currently non-active or intermittent. It would be preferable to have at least two active bureaucrats for a range of reasons. Personally, I am coming up soon to a very busy part of the university year and then a summer break. Who would you like to see as a WV bureaucrat? -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 02:05, 12 August 2010 (UTC)
:My first choice is Cormaggio. My second choice is Mikeu. I wish they would return. [[User:Ottava Rima|Ottava Rima]] ([[User talk:Ottava Rima|talk]])  02:50, 12 August 2010 (UTC)
::Darklama? [[User:Geoff Plourde|Geoff Plourde]] 06:48, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

: Bureaucratship and custodianship should be not so much unlaid as unpaid. How to keep them unlaid while anyone is too busy elsewhere? A KISS is she is to ''kiss'' a surrogate, proxy, or agent at her own risk. The current disruption here may be mainly attributable to bureaucracy of practical vacancy, I suspect. --&amp;nbsp;[[User:KYPark|KYPark]] [[User talk:KYPark|[T]]] 11:31, 12 August 2010 (UTC) &lt;!-- As per the time sequence, this comment is moved ahead of mikeu's that jutted out later and higher than this, strangely to me. Nevertheless, self-evidently, mikeu is responding to Jtneill and Ottava as well as KYPark is.  -- KYPark [T] 01:18, 13 August 2010 (UTC) --&gt;

Let me know what I can do to lighten the load, James. I do have a number of content projects that have been on the back burner for some time that I would like to get back to, so I'll be around a bit more the next few weeks and hopefully much more active from next month on.  Thanks, Ottava. --[[User:Mu301|mikeu]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Mu301|talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 16:59, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

== Appointing curators ==

Who is appointing Curators? They are not listed here nor for Custodian policy. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 18:38, 9 May 2026 (UTC)

== Hierarchy ==

So does it mean, that one can become a bureaucrat without being an custodian? [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 18:42, 9 May 2026 (UTC)</text>
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      <text bytes="54450" sha1="cmkwv9o1q61gx7y6kc6e1tsih4xbliv" xml:space="preserve">The roles for bureaucrats are not the same at all Wikimedia Foundation projects. For example, one of the key duties of bureaucrats is to turn wiki users into sysops (called [[Wikiversity:Custodianship|custodians]] at Wikiversity). The Wikiversity community should decide if there is some set level of community support required for custodianship or if bureaucrats can exercise some discretion at the end of a community discussion about a candidate for custodianship. --[[User:JWSchmidt|JWSchmidt]] 23:39, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

== Responsibilities of bureaucrats ==

Well, before we can really begin drafting this policy, I think we first need to take a comprehensive look at the technical rights of bureaucrats, the &quot;non-technical&quot; rights of bureaucrats, and the responsibilities of bureaucrats on enwikiversity. 

*'''Technical rigts''': To get the obvious out of the way: bureaucrats are the only local user group capable of granting a user SysOp rights--the policy of when this permission can be used is covered (to some extent) in [[Wikiversity:Custodianship]], so I'm not sure this policy will need to elaborate much upon this. Bureaucrats are also the only local group capable of granting a user Bureaucrat status--the main purpose of this policy is to decide upon when they can and cannot do this. Among their other technical rights are the ability to rename local users and the ability to grant a user bot status. I think it very important that enwikiversity draft both a user renaming policy and a thorough [[Wikiversity:Bots|bot policy]], both of which we lack at the moment. 

*'''Non-technical rights''': On enwiki, we regard Bureaucrats as the ultimate judges of consensus--I believe we should maintain this idea in our Bureaucratship policy. Only bureacrats should be able to close requests for adminship and bureaucratship, approve or reject requests for name changes, and I would also like to propose that they be final authority in requests for bot status. While our focus here isn't a bot approvals process, I would suggest that we use a process similar to RfA for bot status, where users are granted bot status based upon community consensus and where the bureaucrats are the judges of this consensus.

*'''What crats can't do although it's logical to think that they could''': Bureaucrats do not have the technically ability nor the authority to revoke ''any'' user status--crat, bot, or sysop. Requests for desysopping and the like must go through the [[m:Stewards]]. Note that this issue is truly not one that can be debated--'twas set in stone long ago due to a crat gone mad on enwiki.

*'''Expectations of bureaucrats''': First and foremost, bureacrats must be well-trusted members of the community. They must have exceptional understanding of the way things work on Wikiversity and must be ''excellent'' judges of consensus. They must demonstrate through their extensive contributions to Wikiversity that they are not rash in decision-making nor incivil nor incompetent. Also of primary importance is a bureaucrat's ability to thoroughly explain and defend the decisions or he or she makes as well the ability to admit fault. 

Anyway this is just some random babbling/brainstorming. Please discuss :). [[User:AmiDaniel|AmiDaniel]] ([[User talk:AmiDaniel|talk]]) 07:22, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

:&lt;nowiki&gt;{{Subst:blabber-warning1-n|Wikiversity talk:Bureaucratship}}&lt;/nowiki&gt;, Yes, I'd agree with all of what you just said, infact with some rewording I say we have our policy draft ;) [[User:MichaelBillington|Michael Billington]] ([[User talk:MichaelBillington|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/MichaelBillington|contribs]]) 07:40, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

:At the end of community discussions about custodian candidates, should there be any room for judgment by bureaucrats or should they just just do what the community decides (for example, 2/3 approval from participants in the community discussion means automatic approval by the bureaucrats)? What happens if bureaucrats have a disagreement? Does Wikiversity need more than two bureaucrats? --[[User:JWSchmidt|JWSchmidt]] 02:31, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

::Well, we don't want mindless drones as bureaucrats, so I think it's good to advise that (at least some) judgement should be used. But I do think that 2 thirds sounds good as a guide, (that's around 67%), which although not a strong consensus, reflects a good majority. If there is a dispute then you just cut out any sock votes, and see if it is above or below 2/3, otherwise we can just trust their judgement. [[User:MichaelBillington|Michael Billington]] ([[User talk:MichaelBillington|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/MichaelBillington|contribs]]) 03:15, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

:::You know, there might be an advantage to keep this process entirely ambiguous. Suppose we declare a threshold of 50% promotion, but in practise, essentially near unanimous support is needed. No well meaning bureaucrat candidate would aim to get 50% support, because if they did, it would signify that they are not in tune with the public consciousness that oversees this site. --[[User:HappyCamper|HappyCamper]] 03:42, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

::::2/3 makes sense only if the participants have [[meta:consensus|agreed to disagree]].  If there is but one strong objection with reason, the discussion should continue.--[[User:Hillgentleman|Hillgentleman]]|[[User talk:hillgentleman|User talk]] 11:40, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

:::::I am in favour of having a minimum amount of votes, before a decision can be made. One of the problems on wikipedia is that the ones who create the articles are not the ones who make the decisions.--[[User:Daanschr|Daanschr]] 09:56, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
::::::Granted, Wikiversity isn't the place to fix the problems from Wikipedia though...but I do like the idea. One way to do this, is to set this threshold proportional to the number of active participants, and simply have the nomination open until it is met. There will be some technicalities involved, but might be worthwhile looking into. --[[User:HappyCamper|HappyCamper]] 15:32, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

(unindenting) I personally am not a fan of hardcoding rules about what percent of the populus needs to support someone for him to be made an admin. In theory, all custodianship &quot;elections&quot; should actually be ''discussions'' where the goal is attaining consensus, in which case the bureaucrat should then be required to not just look at numbers of supporters vs. opposers, but rather to thoroughly read through the discussion and determine what the true ''consensus'' of the community is. Nonetheless, that is often an idealist concept, and it may be a methodology that we will not be able to maintain for long. In any case, however, I belive that, though adminship is truly not a big deal, if ''one third'' or more of the community has good reason to oppose handing someone the mop, that person should not be made an admin--I would personally favor a much higher level of needed support (75-80%) before a Bureaucrat even considers making a user an admin. Codifying consensus clearly has its benefits--it spares crats a lot of work if they just have to look at numbers and it gives them an easy way to respond to disputes that arise about their actions, by simply citing numbers. But it is not the wiki way, nor should the task of bureaucrats simply be to count votes. I rather believe the most important quality of a prospective bureaucrat to be the ability to reasonably judge ''consensus'' without counting votes, the ability to make tough decisions, and the ability to adequately to defend oneself when making such decisions. That, I belive, should be our focus, rather than deciding what percentage of support constitutes consensus in all situations. Do keep in mind that [[m:Polling is evil]] and should be avoided where possible. Now to address Daanschr's concerns that &quot;the ones who create the articles are not the ones who make the decisions&quot;--I personally believe it best so; the major article writers tend to be the ones least concerned with administrivia such as blocking policies and deletion policies  and the tedious boring tasks of clearing categories such as [[w:CAT:NSD]]. The job of an administrator is to be well-versed in policy matters, to have excellent common sense, and to serve as diplomats in disputes--while writing featured articles is an excellent way to gain knowledge in how to deal with disputes, it is by far not the only way, and I find that the major article writers tend to be the least capable of maintaining neutrality. Note as well that administrative permissions provide you, in theory at least, with no higher status in the community, no more influence in policy matters, and certainly not any extra tools to help you write better articles. Administrators are just that--administrators; they deal with administrative issues. Similarly, Bureaucrats deal with bureaucratic issues such as renaming users, flagging bots, and processing requests for adminship. Neither admins nor bureaucrats nor checkusers nor any other user group should have any greater influence over individual articles nor the policies governing all users and articles than any other user. Okay, ending babbling now. :D [[User:AmiDaniel|AmiDaniel]] ([[User talk:AmiDaniel|talk]]) 18:01, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

:I don't like the idea of always trying to get consensus. The result of this is unending discussions on policy and a conservative, defensive community. I would prefer to have a system which can be able to changed things. Such a system could be top-down with a clear leader, who can make tough decisions, a kind of democratic system where majorities can overrule minorities, or a corporate system where institutes within Wikiversity can have a say on policy. It depends on what Wikiversity will try to become. At the moment it is not clear at all what it will be.--[[User:Daanschr|Daanschr]] 18:18, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

::And contrarily, the concept of a top-down hierarchial power structure sends shivers up my spine, as no individual, or even group of individuals, can possibly have the best know-how in all situations. I find that, in a wiki structure, discussion seems to be the best way at attaining results, as it allows for people's opinions to be influenced, allows for more equality among membrs of the community, and helps to prevent narrow, dogmatic views on issues. Sure, it takes longer, but I find the results tend to be much more beneficial. Note as well that by consensus I don't mean that everyone has to agree upon something for it to be done, but rather that decisions should be made by the community as a whole rather than just a handful of individuals, or even a narrow majority of the community. [[User:AmiDaniel|AmiDaniel]] ([[User talk:AmiDaniel|talk]]) 18:31, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

:::I don't believe very much in individualism. People are very conformistic regardless of rhetorics to promote individualism. I agree with you that the group of people who decide shouldn't be too small. The process of decision-making should be as inclusive as possible, but inclusiveness doesn't necessarily have to be individualistic.--[[User:Daanschr|Daanschr]] 19:04, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

::::Wikiversity is a wiki, which means that it must work as a collaborative process. The best means to maintaining the motivation and participation of all involved in a wiki is to recognise that there is often a diversity of points of view, and that this diversity needs to be reflected in the consensus-of-the-time (which can itself be discussed and changed). We have to recognise that individuals bring particular viewpoints to the community, and that individuals have needs in terms of being heard, being valued etc. So we must place some value in individualism. But we are also here to create a collaborative project - which means we need to be able to listen to one another, discuss openly, and sometimes take criticism. All of this applies to anyone - including custodians and bureaucrats. But we can't give up our base of consensus - otherwise it would not be a truly collaborative project. [[User:Cormaggio|Cormaggio]] &lt;sup&gt;&lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Cormaggio|talk]]&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 20:20, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

:::::Having said that, we should state that consensus has its limitations - it can be misused, and it can be misinterpreted. I think it's a risk that Wiki participants implicitly accept. --[[User:HappyCamper|HappyCamper]] 22:43, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

:&lt;b&gt;Polling is not evil.&lt;/b&gt;  It is a concise way to evaluate a large group's weighted position.  Anyone claiming to be able to accurately judge the &quot;consensus&quot; of a large group discussion without some kind of a straw poll ....   Further, it is unlikely that a large fraction of participants at wikiversity will actually care enough about who operates the mops to participate repeatedly in &quot;consensus&quot; building.  Sometimes, temporary closure can be a beautiful thing.  I think initially most administrative functions, including bureaucrat status, should be fairly easily attained and moderately easily removed if people so trusted cannot learn to wield their priveleges/responsibilities effectively.   This was the case when Wikipedia was a startup and helped grow the community and encyclopedia to critical mass.  Of course, Wikipedia had a formal clearcut organizational structure that was fairly flat.  There was the God King, the developers, everyone else.  Adminship was essentially the result of having sufficient experience with the wiki and the community to be trusted to avoid really foolish blunders and trusted to be willing to help fix mistakes.  At the moment Wikiversity is vertically taller than early Wikipedia was by approximately a Board of Directors, a committee, and possibly an informal subcommittee, stewards and bureaurcrats and custodians.  Custodianship is not automatic after an initial introduction period.   Anybody think this tall fuzzy infrastructure is helpful in retaining newcomers?  How could we emulate the early structure of Wikipedia?  Well perhaps once a year we could have a vote for an honorary &quot;God King&quot; who could occasionally decide tough issues for the community (those urgently requiring dramatic prompt action for the greater good or at least to avoid the greater bad ...) but usually keep quiet and let the community argue it out.  Obviously our &quot;God King&quot; would not have the real authority that Jimbo started out with and has carefully preserved by stacking the Wikimedia Foundation board .... still I expect the Board (or a committee or a steward or a local bureaucrat or a local participant) might listen carefully when the honorary Wikiversity God King speaks regarding Wikiversity issues considering the position as a community spokesperson has been numerically substantiated by a majority of the votes cast determined legitimate and counted.   Perhaps we should include term limits or restrict the candidates to former bureaucrats???  Notice that if you consider voting evil that can dramatically reduce the voting.  One vote once a year and then the God King can help sort it all out by deciding the &quot;consensus&quot;.  No further straw polls required, unless of course the God King requests one.  [[User:71.161.11.162|71.161.11.162]] 07:47, 11 December 2006 (UTC) ([[User:Mirwin|Mirwin]])

:::Hey, hold on there...what I wrote should not be interpreted as commentary on the voting process - that was not what I had in mind at all. --[[User:HappyCamper|HappyCamper]] 15:18, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

::The structure of Wikiversity is no more hierarchical/vertical than any other Wikimedia project. What it seems you're confusing it with is the structure of Wikimedia - which is a quite separate sphere of activity to the running of this project. No project has created their own GodKing, and I believe it would be entirely inappropriate to create such a thing. Consensus isn't that hard to ascertain - if there is opposition, it will be clear on the relevant pages. If needs be, polls can certainly be used to gauge opinion. But I think you're misinterpreting the gist of the maxim &quot;voting/polls is/are evil&quot;, which should really read something like: &quot;Votes/polls can be divisive, and they should be used sparingly, with caution, and after substantial discussion, and their results should not be taken as necessarily indicating a majority or a consensus within the community&quot;. [[User:Cormaggio|Cormaggio]] &lt;sup&gt;&lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Cormaggio|talk]]&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 15:12, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

:::'''voting'''. One of the bad things that happens with polls is that they are often started before there has been any serious discussion of a topic. In a wiki, votes do not constructively substitute for discussion, collaboration and compromise. I trust both custodians and bureaucrats to discount any votes that are not closely coupled to a an argument that explains the reasoning behind the vote. --[[User:JWSchmidt|JWSchmidt]] 16:02, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

::::I don't agree that this should be the decision of the custodians and bureaucrats. I am more in favour of a system of checks and balances. The rights and duties of all involved should be clearly defined.--[[User:Daanschr|Daanschr]] 09:47, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

:::::I am familiar and comfortable with [[w:Wikipedia:Consensus]]. I guess Wikiversity needs [[Wikiversity:Consensus]] in order to make clear how this project will deal with consensus and any proposed &quot;system of checks and balances&quot;. --[[User:JWSchmidt|JWSchmidt]] 16:38, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

== informed action by bureaucrats ==

#&quot;we don't want mindless drones as bureaucrats&quot;
#&quot;the bureaucrat should read through the discussion and determine what the true consensus of the community is&quot;
#&quot;of primary importance is a bureaucrat's ability to thoroughly explain and defend the decisions or he or she makes as well the ability to admit fault&quot;
#paraphrase: sometimes the search for community consensus can bog down and bureaucrats just need to &quot;cut the knot&quot; and act

I think the &quot;logic&quot; of the above line of reasoning (points 1-4) rests on one additional idea that should be made explicit. A wiki bureaucrat should have a good understanding of the mission of the wiki and a willingness to put the success of the project ahead of consensus. Bureaucrats are in a position to do so by '''not''' acting when they are asked to act. If a bureaucrat feels that a requested action would do more harm than good, the bureaucrat can discuss the requested action before acting. &quot;[[w:Ochlocracy|Mob rule]]&quot; is a potential danger in any human social system that is guided by consensus. Bureaucrats can function as a check on this danger. Bureaucrats should be experienced wiki users who are always watching for situations in which the community might be rushing into a poor decision that does not really serve the long-term interests of the project. Also, too close adherence to policy can create problems. For example, if on the last scheduled day of a community discussion some new evidence is provided, it might be wise to extend the discussion rather than close it at the scheduled time. When bureaucrats are willing to do what is best for the project '''and''' explain what they are doing it can allow the community to be thoughtful and possibly avoid rushing into a regrettable course of action. Item #4 in the list (acting without consensus, above) is a bit trickier than failure to act. When bureaucrats feel forced into taking action in the absence of community consensus there should at least be consensus among bureaucrats and a clear explanation to the community of why the action is being taken. It makes sense to me that any bureaucrat action that is not supported by prior community consensus should be open to critical evaluation by the community. There was an interesting case at the English Wikipedia in which bureaucrats &quot;broke the rules&quot; in deciding to grant adminship to a candidate who had an unusually low level of community support. I think the Wikiversity community needs to give some thought to the best way to deal with that kind of situation. --[[User:JWSchmidt|JWSchmidt]] 19:47, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

:If precedent needs to be made, the bureaucrat better be in a position to justify this rigorously. If they cannot do this, a decision to not take action should have been taken. There is no reason why things need to be rushed here. --[[User:HappyCamper|HappyCamper]] 19:56, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

:I understand that sometimes a bureaucrat needs to act when, for example, quick action is needed but the participants are still debating which course of action to take.  I also understand that sometimes a bureaucrat may ''refuse to  act''.  But I cannot accept a bureaucrat ''acting contrarily'' to community opinion.  Even consensus amongst bureaucrats is not enough excuse.----[[User:Hillgentleman|Hillgentleman]]|[[User talk:hillgentleman|Talk]] 23:23, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

::I suppose we could make a list of everything that can &quot;trump&quot; community consensus. For example, sometimes the Wikimedia Foundation central office makes a sudden decision (such as deleting a wiki page or placing an editing ban on an individual) based on the need to protect the Foundation from legal attack or threats of legal attack. Also, there are some standing Wikimedia Foundation policies that pertain to all Wikimedia Foundation projects. I do not think we can expect a bureaucrat to simply bow to community consensus if the bureaucrat knows that there is a good reason not to initiate an action called for by a community discussion. Simply put, it is possible for community consensus to fail to identify the best course of action and it is not reasonable to tell bureaucrats that they must '''always''' do what community consensus calls for. This is similar to saying that a soldier follows orders but does have to follow an order that involves doing something illegal. However, such situations where a bureaucrat might contradict community consensus are extraordinary. For the vast majority of bureaucrat actions there is no conflict with community consensus or likelihood that anyone would ever question the action. --[[User:JWSchmidt|JWSchmidt]] 02:44, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

:::I agree with JWSchmidt that the interest of Wikiversity should be above the interest of single individuals who damage the whole project. However, too much autocratic power for bureaucrats can be damaging as well.--[[User:Daanschr|Daanschr]] 07:59, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

::::Since bureaucrats are volunteers too, I think it should be obvious that a bureaucrat can always refuse to act.  The community can always appeal the the higher hiearchy to activate some additional bureaucrats with diverse views if a cabal of consistently agreeing bureaucrats seem to consistently take action opposing the &quot;consensus&quot; of the rest of the Wikiversity community within the scope of discussion.  (I assume literature students will not be interested in dictating how engineering sections implement local java labs for finite element analysis ... unless it effects their online response from Wikimedia servers.) Just as the rest of the community participants can bow out at will and go do something else.  We probably should define what &quot;consensus&quot; means locally.   Some people seem to mean a simple majority while others seem to hold out for unanimous and yet others prefer a fuzzy definition preserving the bureaucrats independence and ability to summarize and act as they see fit.  Meanwhile, the &quot;voting is evil&quot; faction seems to prefer guessing while my own &quot;voting is ok&quot; faction prefers concise quantitative data summarizing the final instantaneous result of the discussions.   [[User:71.161.11.162|71.161.11.162]] 08:09, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
:::::I find it interesting that [http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Consensus this page about consensus] makes no attempt to define a numerical measure of consensus. --[[User:JWSchmidt|JWSchmidt]] 16:14, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

==should admins be good editors and contributors?==
I think this is an important issue and I am glad it was raised during a discussion of how bureaucrats should function as part of the process of selecting new custodians. There is danger in having custodians who do not create Wikiversity content. Such custodians can be out of touch with the difficulties faced by wiki participants while they are learning how to contribute to the project. When dealing with edits that are not obvious vandalism and that seem not to fit into the project, all custodians have to try to [[Wikiversity:Assume Good Faith|Assume Good Faith]]. A custodian who does not participate in content creation might be more likely to just roll back a strange edit or delete an unusual page without taking the time to find out what the original contributor of that content was trying to accomplish. Sometimes new editors are trying to contribute and they need help to learn how, not a swift kick from a custodian. Sometimes people show up at Wikiversity and express a desire to fight vandalism while showing no particular interest in contributing to the project. Should bureaucrats simply refuse to grant custodianship to such a candidate? --[[User:JWSchmidt|JWSchmidt]] 19:47, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

:Absolutely. --[[User:HappyCamper|HappyCamper]] 19:53, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

::But Wikipedia has been open to another type of administrator....folks who do very little work to create encyclopedia articles while doing a lot of work to revert vandalism. Should Wikiversity exclude this type of contributor from custodianship? ([http://blog.ericgoldman.org/archives/2006/12/wikipedia_will_1.htm this might be relevant]) --[[User:JWSchmidt|JWSchmidt]] 21:41, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

:::Absolutely not. --[[User:HappyCamper|HappyCamper]] 22:14, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

::::I should not be using these qualifiers because they misrepresent the complexity of the situation that we're trying to address. --[[User:HappyCamper|HappyCamper]] 22:14, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

:&quot;''folks doing very little course work...''&quot; -- Every custodian should have participated actively in ''at least one'' learning project.--[[User:Hillgentleman|Hillgentleman]]|[[User talk:hillgentleman|Talk]] 23:46, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

== So it seems... ==

So, from what I gather so far, it seems that the direction we are headed is that someone that is a bureaucrat plays a significantly more important role than a custodian. Is this assessment correct? --[[User:HappyCamper|HappyCamper]] 19:57, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

:I think that is an unavoidable conclusion. However, the ''extent'' to which bureaucrats should have the power to, for example, carry through or block community decisions is not at all decided (it has only just been mentioned) - so the &quot;significantly more important&quot; part still needs to be qualified. Personally, I wouldn't like to exaggerate this importance - as I believe a bureaucrat's ''main'' role is to act as an implementer of due process (eg. making custodians, closing custodian discussions) - ''within a consensus model''. [[User:Cormaggio|Cormaggio]] &lt;sup&gt;&lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Cormaggio|talk]]&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 20:29, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

::I think that if we bothered to do a study of bureaucrat actions within Wikimedia Foundation projects we would find that the vast majority of bureaucrat actions are based on consensus and/or are never seriously questioned or discussed as being inappropriate. The excitement only comes on those rare occasions when something unusual happens. Can Wikiversity learn from what has happened in the past at other projects or do we just have to wait until our own conflicts arise? Alternatively, do we just reject the idea that &quot;we don't want mindless drones as bureaucrats&quot; and insist that bureaucrats function as drones who only throw the switches after enough votes have been cast? --[[User:JWSchmidt|JWSchmidt]] 20:51, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

:::I doubt if anyone would endorse a &quot;mindless&quot; flicking of the switch - the bureaucrat's actions (to carry out or oppose a community decision) need to be justified - ''particularly'' the latter (which I hope wouldn't arise). [[User:Cormaggio|Cormaggio]] &lt;sup&gt;&lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Cormaggio|talk]]&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 21:24, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
::::In fact, I think the rule has to be more than just &quot;bureaucrats who act without first attaining the usual level of community consensus need to be ready to explain their action&quot;. The rule should be something like &quot;an explanation for the action must be provided along with evidence that the action is based on consensus among a specified group of bureaucrats&quot;. I think the real problems have arisen at Wikipedia when  bureaucrats have adopted a &quot;bunker mentality&quot;, do not try to explain their actions until forced to do so, and call people who questions their actions &quot;troll&quot;. This kind of behavior has been rare, but it is very destructive to a sense of community, even if the controversial bureaucrat action was correct. --[[User:JWSchmidt|JWSchmidt]] 22:02, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

:::::I started this thread because I feel uncomfortable with the emerging view of what a bureaucrat is on Wikiversity to date. I'm still thinking about this thread... --[[User:HappyCamper|HappyCamper]] 22:37, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

::::::I don't understand the idea that bureaucrats can be mindless drones. I guess that it will be impossible for bureaucrats to explain all actions to everyone when the organization grows into a huge moloch like Wikipedia. A friend of mine is admin on Wikipedia and he says that nothing will change there in how the organization is ruled. Well, that is very easy to maintain. But what if change can be considered as good. There needs to be a political system that can be open to change. Being open to change means having to deal with serious resentment, in which consensus and open discussion will not be possible anymore.

::::::Before preceding, i would like to keep in mind the goal of Wikiversity and the organizations within it. How is this discussion going to relate to the establishment of schools and courses, advocating interlingual debates, establishing learning materials? The constitution of Wikiversity should be able to support the organization in its daily functioning. To cast an idea: A corporate system could be that decisions are taken by the schools and by groups who organize debates, thereby circumventing those who only take part in discussions at the top of the establishment as seems to be the practise at Wikipedia.--[[User:Daanschr|Daanschr]] 08:19, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

:::::::''JWSchmidt'': I agree that such a &quot;bunker mentality&quot; could be very destructive to this community. I would not like to have to make any decision which alienated a subset of this community. I furthermore think that hierarchical structures could undermine the whole process of seeking consensus, which is fundamental to our work. Any view of a bureaucrat's &quot;power&quot; ''must'' be embedded ''within'' this model, not somehow supplanting it.
:::::::''HappyCamper'': I'm worried. What emerging view of bureaucratship are you uncomfortable with? I really want you to feel free to express your thoughts openly. Does my above note address your fears at all?
:::::::''Daanschr'': I think change is fundamental to our entire modus operandi, even our raison d'etre (my second time using that phrase in two days!). I think it would be terrible to recreate a system that made participants feel they could make no lasting impact on the project - even if this belief was misguided. But, while I completely endorse the development of a whole system that would sustain this project, I'm a little confused by your idea here - what decisions would need to be taken at the school level that would require custodian or bureaucrat input? [[User:Cormaggio|Cormaggio]] &lt;sup&gt;&lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Cormaggio|talk]]&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 14:47, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

For instance how the policy of [[Wikiversity:Cite sources|citing]] and [[Wikiversity:Verifiability|verifying]] [[Wikiversity:Reliable sources|reliable sources]] can be implemented. But also how [[Learning to learn a wiki way]], [[Wikiversity:Scholarly ethics|Scholarly Ethics]] or my idea of trying to gain the respect of the academic world can be implemented. This can also be decided for at school level, so each school can determine for itself on how to use it or by not using it at all.

Happycamper, i quess the stewarts of the Wikimedia Foundation are still in charge here. When a bureaucrat behaves in such a way that it damages the community considerably, then the stewarts can interphere isn't it? It would be funny if that is the case. The whole Wiki community would serve like a medieval monastic order.--[[User:Daanschr|Daanschr]] 15:26, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

:The stewards typically do not intervene unless requested by the community - in fact, I think they are instructed not to ever jump in. ''Daanschr'', actually, you raise quite a good point, so maybe we should share some ideas on a different page regarding academics and such. I think I have a fairly good idea what your concerns are. Maybe after this bureaucrat thing is done we can talk more. I don't know if I can keep up with two different threads. ''Cormaggio'' - not to worry, I was happy to read your posts. --[[User:HappyCamper|HappyCamper]] 16:26, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

::I would be happy to start such a page.--[[User:Daanschr|Daanschr]] 10:14, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

:::Such a page would be excellent to have. What about [[Wikiversity:Academic standards]], [[Wikiversity:Methodology]], or [[Wikiversity:Scholarly practice]]? Alternatively (or, perhaps, in parallel), we could develop [[Wikiversity:Scholarly ethics]], [[Wikiversity:Academic freedom]], [[Wikiversity:Verifiability]], [[Wikiversity:Cite sources]], [[Wikiversity:Reliable sources]], [[Wikiversity:Wikiversity outreach]], or others which I may have temporarily forgotten.. [[User:Cormaggio|Cormaggio]] &lt;sup&gt;&lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Cormaggio|talk]]&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 16:26, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

::::Academic standards sounds good, or what about 'academic expertise'?--[[User:Daanschr|Daanschr]] 18:27, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

To give a little insight into why the model for RfA we have here was chosen: an experience I and others have made in other projects is that the process for attaining adminship can become exceedingly arduous and personal. More often than not it ends up consisting of an evaluation of a user's entire history of contributions rather than their fitness for adminship. This is partially due to the fact that at most other projects there's usually no concrete experience with the user exercising admin features prior to the RfA. So the community is forced to use other points of reference to evaluate the candidate.

At Wikiversity, we've created a process that's different from that. Candidates for custodianship are required to be mentored for four weeks, after which they are evaluated by their mentor. The point of this process is for a candidate to have the opportunity to exercise custodian tools and demonstrate the way in which they would conduct themselves as full custodians. If the mentor provides a favorable recommendation, the candidate can apply for full custodianship, subject to community discussion. The final decision in this matter lies with the bureaucrats who are expected to evaluate the mentorship period, the recommendation and community feedback. It's not so much a question of consensus but of informed decision-making considering the interests of Wikiversity as a collaborative project as the highest priority. For other issues, I would expect for bureaucrats to act in the same thoughtful and constructive manner. [[User:sebmol|sebmol]] [[User talk:sebmol|&lt;sup&gt;?&lt;/sup&gt;]] 16:49, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

:&quot;trying to gain the respect of the academic world&quot; &lt;-- I think many people outside of the wiki world are baffled by how wikis function. It is natural for people to assume that wiki &quot;support staff&quot; somehow have special control over the content of Wikimedia Foundation project wikis. There is actually a more subtle and  interesting relationship between the special tasks that can be performed only by &quot;[[Wikiversity:Support staff|Support staff]]&quot; and the &quot;real work&quot; that is done by all wiki participants to actually develop the project. The term &quot;custodian&quot; was selected as the Wikiversity term for &quot;sysop&quot; partly in an attempt to stress the idea that it is not a very exciting position to hold. Picture custodians who quietly sweep the floor when a school is closed at the end of the day. My hope is that if we can do a good job of engineering the Wikiversity rules for support staff then it will be possible for custodians and bureaucrats to be almost invisible to the bulk of the community. Most wikiversity participants should be able to get on with the &quot;real work&quot; of the wiki and all they need to know is how to do is call a custodian in case a toilet blocks up and some mopping is needed. While we can strive to make &quot;support staff&quot; invisible, every action taken by wiki &quot;support staff&quot; needs to be open to review; if there is ever a problem caused by &quot;support staff&quot; then the community needs to be able to correct it. At Wikipedia there are occasionally calls for some kind of formal oversight for &quot;support staff&quot; such as periodic performance reviews. The system that has developed to deal with &quot;support staff&quot; problems is more adversarial and crisis-oriented. If someone perceives a problem with Wikipedia &quot;support staff&quot; then in order to correct it seems like there often has to be a formal and legalistic case brought before the arbitration committee. One way that &quot;support staff&quot; can get in the &quot;dog house&quot; is by trying to use their special tools to take control of wiki content. The bottom line is, &quot;support staff&quot; can only indirectly influence &quot;respect of the academic world&quot; by keeping a clean house within Wikiversity (cleaning up vandalism, etc). It is really up to &quot;regular&quot; Wikiversity participants to gain the respect of the academic world. However, it may be useful for Wikiversity to create a new type of &quot;functionary&quot; that can specialize for &quot;professional&quot; contacts with the academic world. There are some ideas along this line [[Wikiversity:Review board#Ambassadorial function|here]]. --[[User:JWSchmidt|JWSchmidt]] 17:37, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

::If the scholarly ethics will be enforced by the support staff, then their roll will not be invisible. Do you mean with invisible that the support staff will only be concerned with fighting vandalism? The arbitration comittee has made decisions which are questionable. I wouldn't like to have such an institution on Wikiversity.--[[User:Daanschr|Daanschr]] 10:14, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

:::I think that, on scholarly ethics and all other principles of good practice here, while they are vital to developing a high quality resource, I don't think they are of immediate relevance to this discussion on what bureaucrats/support staff should do. Bureaucrats and custodians should not get involved ''in their capacities as support staff'' in the implementation of such policies - they should get involved in discussing such policies and applying them as completely equal community members. As far as I can see it, the only policies that would be of direct relevance to a bureaucrat's or custodian's position would be those around civility - and even then, it is still a ''community'' issue, to perhaps be implemented by a member of the &quot;support staff&quot;. What other types of policies could be enforceable by support staff? [[User:Cormaggio|Cormaggio]] &lt;sup&gt;&lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Cormaggio|talk]]&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 16:26, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

::::I am in favour of a democratic system at the moment, something like the Germans have. A system that ensures that change is possible and at the same time makes it possible that as much of people as possible are directly included in making decisions.--[[User:Daanschr|Daanschr]] 18:15, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

:::::Speaking generally, there are two types of actions taken by custodians and bureaucrats:
:::::1) actions that are best taken after a group of people have thought about them and discussed the matter
:::::2) actions that are so trivial that it would probably be a waste of time to hold a formal discussion before acting.
:::::Under such a system, when someone feels that they want to be more involved in the decisions that are made by custodians and bureaucrats it is possible to increase the amount of discussion that is required before a particular type of action is taken. Also, custodian and bureaucrat actions are reversible. Even after an action has been made people can go back, question, discuss and correct. &quot;a democratic system ..... something like the Germans have&quot; &lt;-- can you explain what you mean? --[[User:JWSchmidt|JWSchmidt]] 19:39, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

::::::With the German system i mean what has been written at the start of this page ''german wikipedia has 2; set rule: 2/3 approval in community discussion of sysop candidates''.
::::::You wrote above ''We don't want mindless drones as bureaucrats''. This sounds nice, but it is hard to determine who is mindless and who is not.
::::::You wrote above ''When bureaucrats feel forced into taking action in the absence of community consensus there should at least be consensus among bureaucrats and a clear explanation to the community of why the action is being taken. It makes sense to me that any bureaucrat action that is not supported by prior community consensus should be open to critical evaluation by the community.'' Here the definition of community puzzles me. How is it possible that if a community can't reach consensus, and the bureacrats make the decision, that the same community is able to revert the decision, which will be hard if there is no consensus. In essence it means that the bureaucrats decide.--[[User:Daanschr|Daanschr]] 20:52, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

::::::I misread the line on the Germans. It deals with choosing sysops.--[[User:Daanschr|Daanschr]] 21:00, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

:::::::My attribution to this discussion was not very strong, so i will leave it up to others. It is an exiting moment in Dutch politics at the moment. There is a possibility that there will be no cabinet. (sorry, completely unrelated)--[[User:Daanschr|Daanschr]] 22:32, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

:::::::&quot;it is hard to determine who is mindless&quot; &lt;-- At the English language Wikipedia custodians and bureaucrats are expected to judged consensus by checking to see if votes are based on reasonable discussion and votes from accounts that look like puppet accounts created just to stack the vote do not have to be counted. Just counting votes without determining that the votes are reasonable and fair is &quot;mindless&quot;; you could have a bot do it. Sometimes action by a custodian or bureaucrat can attract much attention, so much so that an issue that previously did not come to consensus among a smaller group can be decided by the consensus of a larger group. --[[User:JWSchmidt|JWSchmidt]] 23:07, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

== All Quiet on the Western Front... ==

 Wikiversity:
 For want of the bureaucrats -
 Measured, yet subtle.
 
 A bureaucracy:
 Watching; not silent nor still -
 But careful with grace.

--[[User:HappyCamper|HappyCamper]] 05:21, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

:If bureaucrats try to be invisible and only deal with issues of civility, then that would be good for me. (I have read that book: very impressive)--[[User:Daanschr|Daanschr]] 08:21, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

== New draft - ideas and such ==

Great to see things moving along! I have a few ideas which might be handy. I think it would be a good idea to aim for a document which we can expect to remain stable for say, a year or so. Wikiversity is still reasonably young, and I think planning ahead with a time horizon of around 12-16 months in mind is not too unreasonable. This might help us focus on having this page meet Wikiversity's current needs, while leaving the door open to flexibility as the editing environment changes.

I think it might be easier to modify this draft if we discuss each section starting from top to bottom, with less emphasis between how the sections interrelate. Once we have done this, we can look at the resulting document as a whole to see if there are any inconsistencies between what is written and what our philosophies for the bureaucrat role should be. Roughly speaking, I think the discussions we had 4-5 months ago approached this page in the other direction, so it might be fruitful to try the another way.

What is written so far seems reasonable. The concerns I have at the moment are primarily &quot;semantic&quot; - I think we need to clarify certain things. For example, in the first section, what does &quot;well-trusted&quot; really mean? How about the word &quot;consensus&quot;? Or &quot;civility&quot;? Let me focus on trust in this thread.

I think there are two distinct notions here we should document - the first relates to bureaucratship, say, as an &quot;administrative role&quot;, and the second relates to bureaucrat as a &quot;representative role&quot;. In the former, the ideal bureaucrat is probably someone who generally interprets policy in such a way that maximizes consistency and minimizes surprise. That is, they act in a way which can be reasonably anticipated by the community. In the latter, the bureaucrat is someone who the community feels is a positive influence on Wikiversity, likely someone not particularly polarizing, with a well rounded knowledge of the site. The bureaucrat is someone who would be a good ambassador for Wikiversity.

However, even this brief sketch seems problematic as it seems to open the door to a policy where the bureaucrat bit can be granted relatively liberally. This in itself is not problematic - it is the fact that it seems inconsistent with what I think the bureaucrat role is intended to be (a little more selective) which makes it so. What's the best way to proceed? Perhaps this sketch is really a non-issue, but I thought it might be a good idea just to write this down. We should probably aim for policy which balances these concerns nicely, so that its consequences are manageable by the community. Enough writing for now! I will try shorter tidbits next time. --[[User:HappyCamper|HappyCamper]] 22:23, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

:&quot;planning ahead with a time horizon of around 12-16 months in mind is not too unreasonable&quot; &lt;-- In your thinking, is it likely that this &quot;time horizon&quot; will include a real Wikiversity crisis in which the project might benefit from having a good set of bcrat guidelines in place, rather than the alternative of the community struggling through a crisis without the aid of good guidelines and then getting around to making useful policy only after the crisis is over? By &quot;good guidelines &quot; I mean that we would be able to learn from challenges that have previously been faced by other wiki projects.--[[User:JWSchmidt|JWSchmidt]] 23:38, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

::Learning from previous challenges on other projects - this sounds like a learning project in its own right. :-) I think it would be great to pursue such a project - but there's also an inevitability about us having to learn through this process ourselves in this (local) context. We will never be able to learn everything in advance - nor prepare for every inevitability - but we should endeavour to have as much of the process as clearly defined as possible, always leaving room for fresh and critical thinking, judgement, and reflexivity. Part of this is working through what terms like [[Wikiversity:Consensus|&quot;consensus&quot;]] mean - and these policies should be as clear as possible while also leaving flexibility for rethinking them in new light. For example, the notion of &quot;reasonability&quot; is fundamental to most legal systems, but what being &quot;reasonable&quot; is is a very complex notion. I don't think we need to recreate an entire legal system, but rather develop a model of consensus that will work for as long as it needs to. Wikiversity's development over a timeframe of 12-16 months sounds good as a thought experiment to start off with, however. :-) [[User:Cormaggio|Cormaggio]] &lt;sup&gt;&lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Cormaggio|talk]]&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 00:29, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

:::Well, 12-16 months is arbitrary. Ideally, it would be nice if we could come up with something that would be workable for all time, but that does not seem achievable. So, I just picked a number that was less than infinity...something which seems manageable (at least to me). Basically, a neat concept to suggest that we should not try and solve all the possible problems that might crop up. I didn't think of the phrase &quot;thought experiment&quot;, but actually, that's a very nice way of putting it :-) I didn't have a potential Wikiversity crisis in mind when I wrote my previous post. I'll have to think about it, but maybe I'll offer an idea that perhaps a &quot;crisis&quot; on a Wiki generally turns policy into a source of polarization.

:::Here's another metaphor which might be useful. Originally, I thought that policies here would develop sort of like growing plants from seeds. A little water and sunlight (ie. edits to the page) here and there...and obviously, watching the plant mature. But it seems this is developing more like a piece of artwork, say, chiseling a stone sculpture. Start with a rough draft, and work away at it to get something useful. 

:::I feel like I am going in circles, so maybe let's sketch out a bureaucrat I think would be healthy for Wikiversity, and how they might work. Obviously, this isn't the only sort of bureaucrat that would be useful for Wikiversity, but I'll describe one which is easiest for me to do right now. So, let's see...the bureaucrat will be just a normal editor on almost all pages on Wikiversity, with the exception of those directly related to creating custodians. They will not see custodianship as a too much of a political process. Policies will tend to be seen as descriptive, not prescriptive. Possibly a wikignome by nature. They will incline on promoting liberally - particular, for those users who seem to be dedicated to generating content on Wikiversity. The custodial bit is seen as a source of convenience for users, not as a source of autonomy. Possibly see Wikiversity more in an &quot;eventualist&quot; light instead of &quot;immediatist&quot; one (or whatever the neologism is). Promotions don't need to happen on fixed schedules. Track record of dedication to the project. OK, so much for now. How does this sketch look? Is this a &quot;good&quot; bureaucrat for Wikiversity? --[[User:HappyCamper|HappyCamper]] 04:03, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

== Ambassador ==

Is there a better designation than [[w:Bureacrat|Bureacrat]]? Can this be changed to something like [[w:Ambassador|Ambassador]] at least for Wikiversity? [[User:CQ|CQ]] 14:21, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

==How many bureaucrats does Wikiversity need?==
How long is a piece of string? Any answer to this will be too vague, I feel. [[User:Cormaggio|Cormaggio]] &lt;sup&gt;&lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Cormaggio|talk]]&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 16:12, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
;Simpler question
Does Wikiversity need more than two bureaucrats?

*Wikinews has 5 bcrats, including Jimbo
*Wikibooks has 6, also including Jimbo
*Wiktionary has 5 bcrats
*wikimedia Commons has 9
*Wikiquote has 1 bureaucrat
*Wikisource has 1 bureaucrat
*Wikispecies has 9 bureaucrats
*the wikimedia meta-wiki has 18 bureaucrats

*englishh wikipedia has 24: &quot;gray area&quot; in bureaucrat judging of consensus in community discussion of sysop candidates
*german wikipedia has 2; set rule: 2/3 approval in community discussion of sysop candidates

==Call for bureaucrats==
Currently, we only have one active bureaucrat (Jtneill) and SB Johnny has recently returned but only temporarily. The other bureaucrats are currently non-active or intermittent. It would be preferable to have at least two active bureaucrats for a range of reasons. Personally, I am coming up soon to a very busy part of the university year and then a summer break. Who would you like to see as a WV bureaucrat? -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 02:05, 12 August 2010 (UTC)
:My first choice is Cormaggio. My second choice is Mikeu. I wish they would return. [[User:Ottava Rima|Ottava Rima]] ([[User talk:Ottava Rima|talk]])  02:50, 12 August 2010 (UTC)
::Darklama? [[User:Geoff Plourde|Geoff Plourde]] 06:48, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

: Bureaucratship and custodianship should be not so much unlaid as unpaid. How to keep them unlaid while anyone is too busy elsewhere? A KISS is she is to ''kiss'' a surrogate, proxy, or agent at her own risk. The current disruption here may be mainly attributable to bureaucracy of practical vacancy, I suspect. --&amp;nbsp;[[User:KYPark|KYPark]] [[User talk:KYPark|[T]]] 11:31, 12 August 2010 (UTC) &lt;!-- As per the time sequence, this comment is moved ahead of mikeu's that jutted out later and higher than this, strangely to me. Nevertheless, self-evidently, mikeu is responding to Jtneill and Ottava as well as KYPark is.  -- KYPark [T] 01:18, 13 August 2010 (UTC) --&gt;

Let me know what I can do to lighten the load, James. I do have a number of content projects that have been on the back burner for some time that I would like to get back to, so I'll be around a bit more the next few weeks and hopefully much more active from next month on.  Thanks, Ottava. --[[User:Mu301|mikeu]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Mu301|talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 16:59, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

== Appointing curators ==

Who is appointing Curators? They are not listed here nor for Custodian policy. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 18:38, 9 May 2026 (UTC)

== Hierarchy ==

So does it mean, that one can become a bureaucrat without being an custodian? [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 18:42, 9 May 2026 (UTC)

:As this isn't specified, I think its possible to become a bureaucrat without being a custodian (e.g., maybe an experienced, trusted user who has these rights in another project). But I think a more common pathway would be a user who is an en.wv custodian becoming a bureaucrat. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 04:25, 10 May 2026 (UTC)</text>
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      <text bytes="54686" sha1="sq3j3ms9z5nwrzlyk9mtu025xcxr66x" xml:space="preserve">The roles for bureaucrats are not the same at all Wikimedia Foundation projects. For example, one of the key duties of bureaucrats is to turn wiki users into sysops (called [[Wikiversity:Custodianship|custodians]] at Wikiversity). The Wikiversity community should decide if there is some set level of community support required for custodianship or if bureaucrats can exercise some discretion at the end of a community discussion about a candidate for custodianship. --[[User:JWSchmidt|JWSchmidt]] 23:39, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

== Responsibilities of bureaucrats ==

Well, before we can really begin drafting this policy, I think we first need to take a comprehensive look at the technical rights of bureaucrats, the &quot;non-technical&quot; rights of bureaucrats, and the responsibilities of bureaucrats on enwikiversity. 

*'''Technical rigts''': To get the obvious out of the way: bureaucrats are the only local user group capable of granting a user SysOp rights--the policy of when this permission can be used is covered (to some extent) in [[Wikiversity:Custodianship]], so I'm not sure this policy will need to elaborate much upon this. Bureaucrats are also the only local group capable of granting a user Bureaucrat status--the main purpose of this policy is to decide upon when they can and cannot do this. Among their other technical rights are the ability to rename local users and the ability to grant a user bot status. I think it very important that enwikiversity draft both a user renaming policy and a thorough [[Wikiversity:Bots|bot policy]], both of which we lack at the moment. 

*'''Non-technical rights''': On enwiki, we regard Bureaucrats as the ultimate judges of consensus--I believe we should maintain this idea in our Bureaucratship policy. Only bureacrats should be able to close requests for adminship and bureaucratship, approve or reject requests for name changes, and I would also like to propose that they be final authority in requests for bot status. While our focus here isn't a bot approvals process, I would suggest that we use a process similar to RfA for bot status, where users are granted bot status based upon community consensus and where the bureaucrats are the judges of this consensus.

*'''What crats can't do although it's logical to think that they could''': Bureaucrats do not have the technically ability nor the authority to revoke ''any'' user status--crat, bot, or sysop. Requests for desysopping and the like must go through the [[m:Stewards]]. Note that this issue is truly not one that can be debated--'twas set in stone long ago due to a crat gone mad on enwiki.

*'''Expectations of bureaucrats''': First and foremost, bureacrats must be well-trusted members of the community. They must have exceptional understanding of the way things work on Wikiversity and must be ''excellent'' judges of consensus. They must demonstrate through their extensive contributions to Wikiversity that they are not rash in decision-making nor incivil nor incompetent. Also of primary importance is a bureaucrat's ability to thoroughly explain and defend the decisions or he or she makes as well the ability to admit fault. 

Anyway this is just some random babbling/brainstorming. Please discuss :). [[User:AmiDaniel|AmiDaniel]] ([[User talk:AmiDaniel|talk]]) 07:22, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

:&lt;nowiki&gt;{{Subst:blabber-warning1-n|Wikiversity talk:Bureaucratship}}&lt;/nowiki&gt;, Yes, I'd agree with all of what you just said, infact with some rewording I say we have our policy draft ;) [[User:MichaelBillington|Michael Billington]] ([[User talk:MichaelBillington|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/MichaelBillington|contribs]]) 07:40, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

:At the end of community discussions about custodian candidates, should there be any room for judgment by bureaucrats or should they just just do what the community decides (for example, 2/3 approval from participants in the community discussion means automatic approval by the bureaucrats)? What happens if bureaucrats have a disagreement? Does Wikiversity need more than two bureaucrats? --[[User:JWSchmidt|JWSchmidt]] 02:31, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

::Well, we don't want mindless drones as bureaucrats, so I think it's good to advise that (at least some) judgement should be used. But I do think that 2 thirds sounds good as a guide, (that's around 67%), which although not a strong consensus, reflects a good majority. If there is a dispute then you just cut out any sock votes, and see if it is above or below 2/3, otherwise we can just trust their judgement. [[User:MichaelBillington|Michael Billington]] ([[User talk:MichaelBillington|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/MichaelBillington|contribs]]) 03:15, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

:::You know, there might be an advantage to keep this process entirely ambiguous. Suppose we declare a threshold of 50% promotion, but in practise, essentially near unanimous support is needed. No well meaning bureaucrat candidate would aim to get 50% support, because if they did, it would signify that they are not in tune with the public consciousness that oversees this site. --[[User:HappyCamper|HappyCamper]] 03:42, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

::::2/3 makes sense only if the participants have [[meta:consensus|agreed to disagree]].  If there is but one strong objection with reason, the discussion should continue.--[[User:Hillgentleman|Hillgentleman]]|[[User talk:hillgentleman|User talk]] 11:40, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

:::::I am in favour of having a minimum amount of votes, before a decision can be made. One of the problems on wikipedia is that the ones who create the articles are not the ones who make the decisions.--[[User:Daanschr|Daanschr]] 09:56, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
::::::Granted, Wikiversity isn't the place to fix the problems from Wikipedia though...but I do like the idea. One way to do this, is to set this threshold proportional to the number of active participants, and simply have the nomination open until it is met. There will be some technicalities involved, but might be worthwhile looking into. --[[User:HappyCamper|HappyCamper]] 15:32, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

(unindenting) I personally am not a fan of hardcoding rules about what percent of the populus needs to support someone for him to be made an admin. In theory, all custodianship &quot;elections&quot; should actually be ''discussions'' where the goal is attaining consensus, in which case the bureaucrat should then be required to not just look at numbers of supporters vs. opposers, but rather to thoroughly read through the discussion and determine what the true ''consensus'' of the community is. Nonetheless, that is often an idealist concept, and it may be a methodology that we will not be able to maintain for long. In any case, however, I belive that, though adminship is truly not a big deal, if ''one third'' or more of the community has good reason to oppose handing someone the mop, that person should not be made an admin--I would personally favor a much higher level of needed support (75-80%) before a Bureaucrat even considers making a user an admin. Codifying consensus clearly has its benefits--it spares crats a lot of work if they just have to look at numbers and it gives them an easy way to respond to disputes that arise about their actions, by simply citing numbers. But it is not the wiki way, nor should the task of bureaucrats simply be to count votes. I rather believe the most important quality of a prospective bureaucrat to be the ability to reasonably judge ''consensus'' without counting votes, the ability to make tough decisions, and the ability to adequately to defend oneself when making such decisions. That, I belive, should be our focus, rather than deciding what percentage of support constitutes consensus in all situations. Do keep in mind that [[m:Polling is evil]] and should be avoided where possible. Now to address Daanschr's concerns that &quot;the ones who create the articles are not the ones who make the decisions&quot;--I personally believe it best so; the major article writers tend to be the ones least concerned with administrivia such as blocking policies and deletion policies  and the tedious boring tasks of clearing categories such as [[w:CAT:NSD]]. The job of an administrator is to be well-versed in policy matters, to have excellent common sense, and to serve as diplomats in disputes--while writing featured articles is an excellent way to gain knowledge in how to deal with disputes, it is by far not the only way, and I find that the major article writers tend to be the least capable of maintaining neutrality. Note as well that administrative permissions provide you, in theory at least, with no higher status in the community, no more influence in policy matters, and certainly not any extra tools to help you write better articles. Administrators are just that--administrators; they deal with administrative issues. Similarly, Bureaucrats deal with bureaucratic issues such as renaming users, flagging bots, and processing requests for adminship. Neither admins nor bureaucrats nor checkusers nor any other user group should have any greater influence over individual articles nor the policies governing all users and articles than any other user. Okay, ending babbling now. :D [[User:AmiDaniel|AmiDaniel]] ([[User talk:AmiDaniel|talk]]) 18:01, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

:I don't like the idea of always trying to get consensus. The result of this is unending discussions on policy and a conservative, defensive community. I would prefer to have a system which can be able to changed things. Such a system could be top-down with a clear leader, who can make tough decisions, a kind of democratic system where majorities can overrule minorities, or a corporate system where institutes within Wikiversity can have a say on policy. It depends on what Wikiversity will try to become. At the moment it is not clear at all what it will be.--[[User:Daanschr|Daanschr]] 18:18, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

::And contrarily, the concept of a top-down hierarchial power structure sends shivers up my spine, as no individual, or even group of individuals, can possibly have the best know-how in all situations. I find that, in a wiki structure, discussion seems to be the best way at attaining results, as it allows for people's opinions to be influenced, allows for more equality among membrs of the community, and helps to prevent narrow, dogmatic views on issues. Sure, it takes longer, but I find the results tend to be much more beneficial. Note as well that by consensus I don't mean that everyone has to agree upon something for it to be done, but rather that decisions should be made by the community as a whole rather than just a handful of individuals, or even a narrow majority of the community. [[User:AmiDaniel|AmiDaniel]] ([[User talk:AmiDaniel|talk]]) 18:31, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

:::I don't believe very much in individualism. People are very conformistic regardless of rhetorics to promote individualism. I agree with you that the group of people who decide shouldn't be too small. The process of decision-making should be as inclusive as possible, but inclusiveness doesn't necessarily have to be individualistic.--[[User:Daanschr|Daanschr]] 19:04, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

::::Wikiversity is a wiki, which means that it must work as a collaborative process. The best means to maintaining the motivation and participation of all involved in a wiki is to recognise that there is often a diversity of points of view, and that this diversity needs to be reflected in the consensus-of-the-time (which can itself be discussed and changed). We have to recognise that individuals bring particular viewpoints to the community, and that individuals have needs in terms of being heard, being valued etc. So we must place some value in individualism. But we are also here to create a collaborative project - which means we need to be able to listen to one another, discuss openly, and sometimes take criticism. All of this applies to anyone - including custodians and bureaucrats. But we can't give up our base of consensus - otherwise it would not be a truly collaborative project. [[User:Cormaggio|Cormaggio]] &lt;sup&gt;&lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Cormaggio|talk]]&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 20:20, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

:::::Having said that, we should state that consensus has its limitations - it can be misused, and it can be misinterpreted. I think it's a risk that Wiki participants implicitly accept. --[[User:HappyCamper|HappyCamper]] 22:43, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

:&lt;b&gt;Polling is not evil.&lt;/b&gt;  It is a concise way to evaluate a large group's weighted position.  Anyone claiming to be able to accurately judge the &quot;consensus&quot; of a large group discussion without some kind of a straw poll ....   Further, it is unlikely that a large fraction of participants at wikiversity will actually care enough about who operates the mops to participate repeatedly in &quot;consensus&quot; building.  Sometimes, temporary closure can be a beautiful thing.  I think initially most administrative functions, including bureaucrat status, should be fairly easily attained and moderately easily removed if people so trusted cannot learn to wield their priveleges/responsibilities effectively.   This was the case when Wikipedia was a startup and helped grow the community and encyclopedia to critical mass.  Of course, Wikipedia had a formal clearcut organizational structure that was fairly flat.  There was the God King, the developers, everyone else.  Adminship was essentially the result of having sufficient experience with the wiki and the community to be trusted to avoid really foolish blunders and trusted to be willing to help fix mistakes.  At the moment Wikiversity is vertically taller than early Wikipedia was by approximately a Board of Directors, a committee, and possibly an informal subcommittee, stewards and bureaurcrats and custodians.  Custodianship is not automatic after an initial introduction period.   Anybody think this tall fuzzy infrastructure is helpful in retaining newcomers?  How could we emulate the early structure of Wikipedia?  Well perhaps once a year we could have a vote for an honorary &quot;God King&quot; who could occasionally decide tough issues for the community (those urgently requiring dramatic prompt action for the greater good or at least to avoid the greater bad ...) but usually keep quiet and let the community argue it out.  Obviously our &quot;God King&quot; would not have the real authority that Jimbo started out with and has carefully preserved by stacking the Wikimedia Foundation board .... still I expect the Board (or a committee or a steward or a local bureaucrat or a local participant) might listen carefully when the honorary Wikiversity God King speaks regarding Wikiversity issues considering the position as a community spokesperson has been numerically substantiated by a majority of the votes cast determined legitimate and counted.   Perhaps we should include term limits or restrict the candidates to former bureaucrats???  Notice that if you consider voting evil that can dramatically reduce the voting.  One vote once a year and then the God King can help sort it all out by deciding the &quot;consensus&quot;.  No further straw polls required, unless of course the God King requests one.  [[User:71.161.11.162|71.161.11.162]] 07:47, 11 December 2006 (UTC) ([[User:Mirwin|Mirwin]])

:::Hey, hold on there...what I wrote should not be interpreted as commentary on the voting process - that was not what I had in mind at all. --[[User:HappyCamper|HappyCamper]] 15:18, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

::The structure of Wikiversity is no more hierarchical/vertical than any other Wikimedia project. What it seems you're confusing it with is the structure of Wikimedia - which is a quite separate sphere of activity to the running of this project. No project has created their own GodKing, and I believe it would be entirely inappropriate to create such a thing. Consensus isn't that hard to ascertain - if there is opposition, it will be clear on the relevant pages. If needs be, polls can certainly be used to gauge opinion. But I think you're misinterpreting the gist of the maxim &quot;voting/polls is/are evil&quot;, which should really read something like: &quot;Votes/polls can be divisive, and they should be used sparingly, with caution, and after substantial discussion, and their results should not be taken as necessarily indicating a majority or a consensus within the community&quot;. [[User:Cormaggio|Cormaggio]] &lt;sup&gt;&lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Cormaggio|talk]]&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 15:12, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

:::'''voting'''. One of the bad things that happens with polls is that they are often started before there has been any serious discussion of a topic. In a wiki, votes do not constructively substitute for discussion, collaboration and compromise. I trust both custodians and bureaucrats to discount any votes that are not closely coupled to a an argument that explains the reasoning behind the vote. --[[User:JWSchmidt|JWSchmidt]] 16:02, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

::::I don't agree that this should be the decision of the custodians and bureaucrats. I am more in favour of a system of checks and balances. The rights and duties of all involved should be clearly defined.--[[User:Daanschr|Daanschr]] 09:47, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

:::::I am familiar and comfortable with [[w:Wikipedia:Consensus]]. I guess Wikiversity needs [[Wikiversity:Consensus]] in order to make clear how this project will deal with consensus and any proposed &quot;system of checks and balances&quot;. --[[User:JWSchmidt|JWSchmidt]] 16:38, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

== informed action by bureaucrats ==

#&quot;we don't want mindless drones as bureaucrats&quot;
#&quot;the bureaucrat should read through the discussion and determine what the true consensus of the community is&quot;
#&quot;of primary importance is a bureaucrat's ability to thoroughly explain and defend the decisions or he or she makes as well the ability to admit fault&quot;
#paraphrase: sometimes the search for community consensus can bog down and bureaucrats just need to &quot;cut the knot&quot; and act

I think the &quot;logic&quot; of the above line of reasoning (points 1-4) rests on one additional idea that should be made explicit. A wiki bureaucrat should have a good understanding of the mission of the wiki and a willingness to put the success of the project ahead of consensus. Bureaucrats are in a position to do so by '''not''' acting when they are asked to act. If a bureaucrat feels that a requested action would do more harm than good, the bureaucrat can discuss the requested action before acting. &quot;[[w:Ochlocracy|Mob rule]]&quot; is a potential danger in any human social system that is guided by consensus. Bureaucrats can function as a check on this danger. Bureaucrats should be experienced wiki users who are always watching for situations in which the community might be rushing into a poor decision that does not really serve the long-term interests of the project. Also, too close adherence to policy can create problems. For example, if on the last scheduled day of a community discussion some new evidence is provided, it might be wise to extend the discussion rather than close it at the scheduled time. When bureaucrats are willing to do what is best for the project '''and''' explain what they are doing it can allow the community to be thoughtful and possibly avoid rushing into a regrettable course of action. Item #4 in the list (acting without consensus, above) is a bit trickier than failure to act. When bureaucrats feel forced into taking action in the absence of community consensus there should at least be consensus among bureaucrats and a clear explanation to the community of why the action is being taken. It makes sense to me that any bureaucrat action that is not supported by prior community consensus should be open to critical evaluation by the community. There was an interesting case at the English Wikipedia in which bureaucrats &quot;broke the rules&quot; in deciding to grant adminship to a candidate who had an unusually low level of community support. I think the Wikiversity community needs to give some thought to the best way to deal with that kind of situation. --[[User:JWSchmidt|JWSchmidt]] 19:47, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

:If precedent needs to be made, the bureaucrat better be in a position to justify this rigorously. If they cannot do this, a decision to not take action should have been taken. There is no reason why things need to be rushed here. --[[User:HappyCamper|HappyCamper]] 19:56, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

:I understand that sometimes a bureaucrat needs to act when, for example, quick action is needed but the participants are still debating which course of action to take.  I also understand that sometimes a bureaucrat may ''refuse to  act''.  But I cannot accept a bureaucrat ''acting contrarily'' to community opinion.  Even consensus amongst bureaucrats is not enough excuse.----[[User:Hillgentleman|Hillgentleman]]|[[User talk:hillgentleman|Talk]] 23:23, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

::I suppose we could make a list of everything that can &quot;trump&quot; community consensus. For example, sometimes the Wikimedia Foundation central office makes a sudden decision (such as deleting a wiki page or placing an editing ban on an individual) based on the need to protect the Foundation from legal attack or threats of legal attack. Also, there are some standing Wikimedia Foundation policies that pertain to all Wikimedia Foundation projects. I do not think we can expect a bureaucrat to simply bow to community consensus if the bureaucrat knows that there is a good reason not to initiate an action called for by a community discussion. Simply put, it is possible for community consensus to fail to identify the best course of action and it is not reasonable to tell bureaucrats that they must '''always''' do what community consensus calls for. This is similar to saying that a soldier follows orders but does have to follow an order that involves doing something illegal. However, such situations where a bureaucrat might contradict community consensus are extraordinary. For the vast majority of bureaucrat actions there is no conflict with community consensus or likelihood that anyone would ever question the action. --[[User:JWSchmidt|JWSchmidt]] 02:44, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

:::I agree with JWSchmidt that the interest of Wikiversity should be above the interest of single individuals who damage the whole project. However, too much autocratic power for bureaucrats can be damaging as well.--[[User:Daanschr|Daanschr]] 07:59, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

::::Since bureaucrats are volunteers too, I think it should be obvious that a bureaucrat can always refuse to act.  The community can always appeal the the higher hiearchy to activate some additional bureaucrats with diverse views if a cabal of consistently agreeing bureaucrats seem to consistently take action opposing the &quot;consensus&quot; of the rest of the Wikiversity community within the scope of discussion.  (I assume literature students will not be interested in dictating how engineering sections implement local java labs for finite element analysis ... unless it effects their online response from Wikimedia servers.) Just as the rest of the community participants can bow out at will and go do something else.  We probably should define what &quot;consensus&quot; means locally.   Some people seem to mean a simple majority while others seem to hold out for unanimous and yet others prefer a fuzzy definition preserving the bureaucrats independence and ability to summarize and act as they see fit.  Meanwhile, the &quot;voting is evil&quot; faction seems to prefer guessing while my own &quot;voting is ok&quot; faction prefers concise quantitative data summarizing the final instantaneous result of the discussions.   [[User:71.161.11.162|71.161.11.162]] 08:09, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
:::::I find it interesting that [http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Consensus this page about consensus] makes no attempt to define a numerical measure of consensus. --[[User:JWSchmidt|JWSchmidt]] 16:14, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

==should admins be good editors and contributors?==
I think this is an important issue and I am glad it was raised during a discussion of how bureaucrats should function as part of the process of selecting new custodians. There is danger in having custodians who do not create Wikiversity content. Such custodians can be out of touch with the difficulties faced by wiki participants while they are learning how to contribute to the project. When dealing with edits that are not obvious vandalism and that seem not to fit into the project, all custodians have to try to [[Wikiversity:Assume Good Faith|Assume Good Faith]]. A custodian who does not participate in content creation might be more likely to just roll back a strange edit or delete an unusual page without taking the time to find out what the original contributor of that content was trying to accomplish. Sometimes new editors are trying to contribute and they need help to learn how, not a swift kick from a custodian. Sometimes people show up at Wikiversity and express a desire to fight vandalism while showing no particular interest in contributing to the project. Should bureaucrats simply refuse to grant custodianship to such a candidate? --[[User:JWSchmidt|JWSchmidt]] 19:47, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

:Absolutely. --[[User:HappyCamper|HappyCamper]] 19:53, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

::But Wikipedia has been open to another type of administrator....folks who do very little work to create encyclopedia articles while doing a lot of work to revert vandalism. Should Wikiversity exclude this type of contributor from custodianship? ([http://blog.ericgoldman.org/archives/2006/12/wikipedia_will_1.htm this might be relevant]) --[[User:JWSchmidt|JWSchmidt]] 21:41, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

:::Absolutely not. --[[User:HappyCamper|HappyCamper]] 22:14, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

::::I should not be using these qualifiers because they misrepresent the complexity of the situation that we're trying to address. --[[User:HappyCamper|HappyCamper]] 22:14, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

:&quot;''folks doing very little course work...''&quot; -- Every custodian should have participated actively in ''at least one'' learning project.--[[User:Hillgentleman|Hillgentleman]]|[[User talk:hillgentleman|Talk]] 23:46, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

== So it seems... ==

So, from what I gather so far, it seems that the direction we are headed is that someone that is a bureaucrat plays a significantly more important role than a custodian. Is this assessment correct? --[[User:HappyCamper|HappyCamper]] 19:57, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

:I think that is an unavoidable conclusion. However, the ''extent'' to which bureaucrats should have the power to, for example, carry through or block community decisions is not at all decided (it has only just been mentioned) - so the &quot;significantly more important&quot; part still needs to be qualified. Personally, I wouldn't like to exaggerate this importance - as I believe a bureaucrat's ''main'' role is to act as an implementer of due process (eg. making custodians, closing custodian discussions) - ''within a consensus model''. [[User:Cormaggio|Cormaggio]] &lt;sup&gt;&lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Cormaggio|talk]]&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 20:29, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

::I think that if we bothered to do a study of bureaucrat actions within Wikimedia Foundation projects we would find that the vast majority of bureaucrat actions are based on consensus and/or are never seriously questioned or discussed as being inappropriate. The excitement only comes on those rare occasions when something unusual happens. Can Wikiversity learn from what has happened in the past at other projects or do we just have to wait until our own conflicts arise? Alternatively, do we just reject the idea that &quot;we don't want mindless drones as bureaucrats&quot; and insist that bureaucrats function as drones who only throw the switches after enough votes have been cast? --[[User:JWSchmidt|JWSchmidt]] 20:51, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

:::I doubt if anyone would endorse a &quot;mindless&quot; flicking of the switch - the bureaucrat's actions (to carry out or oppose a community decision) need to be justified - ''particularly'' the latter (which I hope wouldn't arise). [[User:Cormaggio|Cormaggio]] &lt;sup&gt;&lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Cormaggio|talk]]&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 21:24, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
::::In fact, I think the rule has to be more than just &quot;bureaucrats who act without first attaining the usual level of community consensus need to be ready to explain their action&quot;. The rule should be something like &quot;an explanation for the action must be provided along with evidence that the action is based on consensus among a specified group of bureaucrats&quot;. I think the real problems have arisen at Wikipedia when  bureaucrats have adopted a &quot;bunker mentality&quot;, do not try to explain their actions until forced to do so, and call people who questions their actions &quot;troll&quot;. This kind of behavior has been rare, but it is very destructive to a sense of community, even if the controversial bureaucrat action was correct. --[[User:JWSchmidt|JWSchmidt]] 22:02, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

:::::I started this thread because I feel uncomfortable with the emerging view of what a bureaucrat is on Wikiversity to date. I'm still thinking about this thread... --[[User:HappyCamper|HappyCamper]] 22:37, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

::::::I don't understand the idea that bureaucrats can be mindless drones. I guess that it will be impossible for bureaucrats to explain all actions to everyone when the organization grows into a huge moloch like Wikipedia. A friend of mine is admin on Wikipedia and he says that nothing will change there in how the organization is ruled. Well, that is very easy to maintain. But what if change can be considered as good. There needs to be a political system that can be open to change. Being open to change means having to deal with serious resentment, in which consensus and open discussion will not be possible anymore.

::::::Before preceding, i would like to keep in mind the goal of Wikiversity and the organizations within it. How is this discussion going to relate to the establishment of schools and courses, advocating interlingual debates, establishing learning materials? The constitution of Wikiversity should be able to support the organization in its daily functioning. To cast an idea: A corporate system could be that decisions are taken by the schools and by groups who organize debates, thereby circumventing those who only take part in discussions at the top of the establishment as seems to be the practise at Wikipedia.--[[User:Daanschr|Daanschr]] 08:19, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

:::::::''JWSchmidt'': I agree that such a &quot;bunker mentality&quot; could be very destructive to this community. I would not like to have to make any decision which alienated a subset of this community. I furthermore think that hierarchical structures could undermine the whole process of seeking consensus, which is fundamental to our work. Any view of a bureaucrat's &quot;power&quot; ''must'' be embedded ''within'' this model, not somehow supplanting it.
:::::::''HappyCamper'': I'm worried. What emerging view of bureaucratship are you uncomfortable with? I really want you to feel free to express your thoughts openly. Does my above note address your fears at all?
:::::::''Daanschr'': I think change is fundamental to our entire modus operandi, even our raison d'etre (my second time using that phrase in two days!). I think it would be terrible to recreate a system that made participants feel they could make no lasting impact on the project - even if this belief was misguided. But, while I completely endorse the development of a whole system that would sustain this project, I'm a little confused by your idea here - what decisions would need to be taken at the school level that would require custodian or bureaucrat input? [[User:Cormaggio|Cormaggio]] &lt;sup&gt;&lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Cormaggio|talk]]&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 14:47, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

For instance how the policy of [[Wikiversity:Cite sources|citing]] and [[Wikiversity:Verifiability|verifying]] [[Wikiversity:Reliable sources|reliable sources]] can be implemented. But also how [[Learning to learn a wiki way]], [[Wikiversity:Scholarly ethics|Scholarly Ethics]] or my idea of trying to gain the respect of the academic world can be implemented. This can also be decided for at school level, so each school can determine for itself on how to use it or by not using it at all.

Happycamper, i quess the stewarts of the Wikimedia Foundation are still in charge here. When a bureaucrat behaves in such a way that it damages the community considerably, then the stewarts can interphere isn't it? It would be funny if that is the case. The whole Wiki community would serve like a medieval monastic order.--[[User:Daanschr|Daanschr]] 15:26, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

:The stewards typically do not intervene unless requested by the community - in fact, I think they are instructed not to ever jump in. ''Daanschr'', actually, you raise quite a good point, so maybe we should share some ideas on a different page regarding academics and such. I think I have a fairly good idea what your concerns are. Maybe after this bureaucrat thing is done we can talk more. I don't know if I can keep up with two different threads. ''Cormaggio'' - not to worry, I was happy to read your posts. --[[User:HappyCamper|HappyCamper]] 16:26, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

::I would be happy to start such a page.--[[User:Daanschr|Daanschr]] 10:14, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

:::Such a page would be excellent to have. What about [[Wikiversity:Academic standards]], [[Wikiversity:Methodology]], or [[Wikiversity:Scholarly practice]]? Alternatively (or, perhaps, in parallel), we could develop [[Wikiversity:Scholarly ethics]], [[Wikiversity:Academic freedom]], [[Wikiversity:Verifiability]], [[Wikiversity:Cite sources]], [[Wikiversity:Reliable sources]], [[Wikiversity:Wikiversity outreach]], or others which I may have temporarily forgotten.. [[User:Cormaggio|Cormaggio]] &lt;sup&gt;&lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Cormaggio|talk]]&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 16:26, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

::::Academic standards sounds good, or what about 'academic expertise'?--[[User:Daanschr|Daanschr]] 18:27, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

To give a little insight into why the model for RfA we have here was chosen: an experience I and others have made in other projects is that the process for attaining adminship can become exceedingly arduous and personal. More often than not it ends up consisting of an evaluation of a user's entire history of contributions rather than their fitness for adminship. This is partially due to the fact that at most other projects there's usually no concrete experience with the user exercising admin features prior to the RfA. So the community is forced to use other points of reference to evaluate the candidate.

At Wikiversity, we've created a process that's different from that. Candidates for custodianship are required to be mentored for four weeks, after which they are evaluated by their mentor. The point of this process is for a candidate to have the opportunity to exercise custodian tools and demonstrate the way in which they would conduct themselves as full custodians. If the mentor provides a favorable recommendation, the candidate can apply for full custodianship, subject to community discussion. The final decision in this matter lies with the bureaucrats who are expected to evaluate the mentorship period, the recommendation and community feedback. It's not so much a question of consensus but of informed decision-making considering the interests of Wikiversity as a collaborative project as the highest priority. For other issues, I would expect for bureaucrats to act in the same thoughtful and constructive manner. [[User:sebmol|sebmol]] [[User talk:sebmol|&lt;sup&gt;?&lt;/sup&gt;]] 16:49, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

:&quot;trying to gain the respect of the academic world&quot; &lt;-- I think many people outside of the wiki world are baffled by how wikis function. It is natural for people to assume that wiki &quot;support staff&quot; somehow have special control over the content of Wikimedia Foundation project wikis. There is actually a more subtle and  interesting relationship between the special tasks that can be performed only by &quot;[[Wikiversity:Support staff|Support staff]]&quot; and the &quot;real work&quot; that is done by all wiki participants to actually develop the project. The term &quot;custodian&quot; was selected as the Wikiversity term for &quot;sysop&quot; partly in an attempt to stress the idea that it is not a very exciting position to hold. Picture custodians who quietly sweep the floor when a school is closed at the end of the day. My hope is that if we can do a good job of engineering the Wikiversity rules for support staff then it will be possible for custodians and bureaucrats to be almost invisible to the bulk of the community. Most wikiversity participants should be able to get on with the &quot;real work&quot; of the wiki and all they need to know is how to do is call a custodian in case a toilet blocks up and some mopping is needed. While we can strive to make &quot;support staff&quot; invisible, every action taken by wiki &quot;support staff&quot; needs to be open to review; if there is ever a problem caused by &quot;support staff&quot; then the community needs to be able to correct it. At Wikipedia there are occasionally calls for some kind of formal oversight for &quot;support staff&quot; such as periodic performance reviews. The system that has developed to deal with &quot;support staff&quot; problems is more adversarial and crisis-oriented. If someone perceives a problem with Wikipedia &quot;support staff&quot; then in order to correct it seems like there often has to be a formal and legalistic case brought before the arbitration committee. One way that &quot;support staff&quot; can get in the &quot;dog house&quot; is by trying to use their special tools to take control of wiki content. The bottom line is, &quot;support staff&quot; can only indirectly influence &quot;respect of the academic world&quot; by keeping a clean house within Wikiversity (cleaning up vandalism, etc). It is really up to &quot;regular&quot; Wikiversity participants to gain the respect of the academic world. However, it may be useful for Wikiversity to create a new type of &quot;functionary&quot; that can specialize for &quot;professional&quot; contacts with the academic world. There are some ideas along this line [[Wikiversity:Review board#Ambassadorial function|here]]. --[[User:JWSchmidt|JWSchmidt]] 17:37, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

::If the scholarly ethics will be enforced by the support staff, then their roll will not be invisible. Do you mean with invisible that the support staff will only be concerned with fighting vandalism? The arbitration comittee has made decisions which are questionable. I wouldn't like to have such an institution on Wikiversity.--[[User:Daanschr|Daanschr]] 10:14, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

:::I think that, on scholarly ethics and all other principles of good practice here, while they are vital to developing a high quality resource, I don't think they are of immediate relevance to this discussion on what bureaucrats/support staff should do. Bureaucrats and custodians should not get involved ''in their capacities as support staff'' in the implementation of such policies - they should get involved in discussing such policies and applying them as completely equal community members. As far as I can see it, the only policies that would be of direct relevance to a bureaucrat's or custodian's position would be those around civility - and even then, it is still a ''community'' issue, to perhaps be implemented by a member of the &quot;support staff&quot;. What other types of policies could be enforceable by support staff? [[User:Cormaggio|Cormaggio]] &lt;sup&gt;&lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Cormaggio|talk]]&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 16:26, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

::::I am in favour of a democratic system at the moment, something like the Germans have. A system that ensures that change is possible and at the same time makes it possible that as much of people as possible are directly included in making decisions.--[[User:Daanschr|Daanschr]] 18:15, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

:::::Speaking generally, there are two types of actions taken by custodians and bureaucrats:
:::::1) actions that are best taken after a group of people have thought about them and discussed the matter
:::::2) actions that are so trivial that it would probably be a waste of time to hold a formal discussion before acting.
:::::Under such a system, when someone feels that they want to be more involved in the decisions that are made by custodians and bureaucrats it is possible to increase the amount of discussion that is required before a particular type of action is taken. Also, custodian and bureaucrat actions are reversible. Even after an action has been made people can go back, question, discuss and correct. &quot;a democratic system ..... something like the Germans have&quot; &lt;-- can you explain what you mean? --[[User:JWSchmidt|JWSchmidt]] 19:39, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

::::::With the German system i mean what has been written at the start of this page ''german wikipedia has 2; set rule: 2/3 approval in community discussion of sysop candidates''.
::::::You wrote above ''We don't want mindless drones as bureaucrats''. This sounds nice, but it is hard to determine who is mindless and who is not.
::::::You wrote above ''When bureaucrats feel forced into taking action in the absence of community consensus there should at least be consensus among bureaucrats and a clear explanation to the community of why the action is being taken. It makes sense to me that any bureaucrat action that is not supported by prior community consensus should be open to critical evaluation by the community.'' Here the definition of community puzzles me. How is it possible that if a community can't reach consensus, and the bureacrats make the decision, that the same community is able to revert the decision, which will be hard if there is no consensus. In essence it means that the bureaucrats decide.--[[User:Daanschr|Daanschr]] 20:52, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

::::::I misread the line on the Germans. It deals with choosing sysops.--[[User:Daanschr|Daanschr]] 21:00, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

:::::::My attribution to this discussion was not very strong, so i will leave it up to others. It is an exiting moment in Dutch politics at the moment. There is a possibility that there will be no cabinet. (sorry, completely unrelated)--[[User:Daanschr|Daanschr]] 22:32, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

:::::::&quot;it is hard to determine who is mindless&quot; &lt;-- At the English language Wikipedia custodians and bureaucrats are expected to judged consensus by checking to see if votes are based on reasonable discussion and votes from accounts that look like puppet accounts created just to stack the vote do not have to be counted. Just counting votes without determining that the votes are reasonable and fair is &quot;mindless&quot;; you could have a bot do it. Sometimes action by a custodian or bureaucrat can attract much attention, so much so that an issue that previously did not come to consensus among a smaller group can be decided by the consensus of a larger group. --[[User:JWSchmidt|JWSchmidt]] 23:07, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

== All Quiet on the Western Front... ==

 Wikiversity:
 For want of the bureaucrats -
 Measured, yet subtle.
 
 A bureaucracy:
 Watching; not silent nor still -
 But careful with grace.

--[[User:HappyCamper|HappyCamper]] 05:21, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

:If bureaucrats try to be invisible and only deal with issues of civility, then that would be good for me. (I have read that book: very impressive)--[[User:Daanschr|Daanschr]] 08:21, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

== New draft - ideas and such ==

Great to see things moving along! I have a few ideas which might be handy. I think it would be a good idea to aim for a document which we can expect to remain stable for say, a year or so. Wikiversity is still reasonably young, and I think planning ahead with a time horizon of around 12-16 months in mind is not too unreasonable. This might help us focus on having this page meet Wikiversity's current needs, while leaving the door open to flexibility as the editing environment changes.

I think it might be easier to modify this draft if we discuss each section starting from top to bottom, with less emphasis between how the sections interrelate. Once we have done this, we can look at the resulting document as a whole to see if there are any inconsistencies between what is written and what our philosophies for the bureaucrat role should be. Roughly speaking, I think the discussions we had 4-5 months ago approached this page in the other direction, so it might be fruitful to try the another way.

What is written so far seems reasonable. The concerns I have at the moment are primarily &quot;semantic&quot; - I think we need to clarify certain things. For example, in the first section, what does &quot;well-trusted&quot; really mean? How about the word &quot;consensus&quot;? Or &quot;civility&quot;? Let me focus on trust in this thread.

I think there are two distinct notions here we should document - the first relates to bureaucratship, say, as an &quot;administrative role&quot;, and the second relates to bureaucrat as a &quot;representative role&quot;. In the former, the ideal bureaucrat is probably someone who generally interprets policy in such a way that maximizes consistency and minimizes surprise. That is, they act in a way which can be reasonably anticipated by the community. In the latter, the bureaucrat is someone who the community feels is a positive influence on Wikiversity, likely someone not particularly polarizing, with a well rounded knowledge of the site. The bureaucrat is someone who would be a good ambassador for Wikiversity.

However, even this brief sketch seems problematic as it seems to open the door to a policy where the bureaucrat bit can be granted relatively liberally. This in itself is not problematic - it is the fact that it seems inconsistent with what I think the bureaucrat role is intended to be (a little more selective) which makes it so. What's the best way to proceed? Perhaps this sketch is really a non-issue, but I thought it might be a good idea just to write this down. We should probably aim for policy which balances these concerns nicely, so that its consequences are manageable by the community. Enough writing for now! I will try shorter tidbits next time. --[[User:HappyCamper|HappyCamper]] 22:23, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

:&quot;planning ahead with a time horizon of around 12-16 months in mind is not too unreasonable&quot; &lt;-- In your thinking, is it likely that this &quot;time horizon&quot; will include a real Wikiversity crisis in which the project might benefit from having a good set of bcrat guidelines in place, rather than the alternative of the community struggling through a crisis without the aid of good guidelines and then getting around to making useful policy only after the crisis is over? By &quot;good guidelines &quot; I mean that we would be able to learn from challenges that have previously been faced by other wiki projects.--[[User:JWSchmidt|JWSchmidt]] 23:38, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

::Learning from previous challenges on other projects - this sounds like a learning project in its own right. :-) I think it would be great to pursue such a project - but there's also an inevitability about us having to learn through this process ourselves in this (local) context. We will never be able to learn everything in advance - nor prepare for every inevitability - but we should endeavour to have as much of the process as clearly defined as possible, always leaving room for fresh and critical thinking, judgement, and reflexivity. Part of this is working through what terms like [[Wikiversity:Consensus|&quot;consensus&quot;]] mean - and these policies should be as clear as possible while also leaving flexibility for rethinking them in new light. For example, the notion of &quot;reasonability&quot; is fundamental to most legal systems, but what being &quot;reasonable&quot; is is a very complex notion. I don't think we need to recreate an entire legal system, but rather develop a model of consensus that will work for as long as it needs to. Wikiversity's development over a timeframe of 12-16 months sounds good as a thought experiment to start off with, however. :-) [[User:Cormaggio|Cormaggio]] &lt;sup&gt;&lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Cormaggio|talk]]&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 00:29, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

:::Well, 12-16 months is arbitrary. Ideally, it would be nice if we could come up with something that would be workable for all time, but that does not seem achievable. So, I just picked a number that was less than infinity...something which seems manageable (at least to me). Basically, a neat concept to suggest that we should not try and solve all the possible problems that might crop up. I didn't think of the phrase &quot;thought experiment&quot;, but actually, that's a very nice way of putting it :-) I didn't have a potential Wikiversity crisis in mind when I wrote my previous post. I'll have to think about it, but maybe I'll offer an idea that perhaps a &quot;crisis&quot; on a Wiki generally turns policy into a source of polarization.

:::Here's another metaphor which might be useful. Originally, I thought that policies here would develop sort of like growing plants from seeds. A little water and sunlight (ie. edits to the page) here and there...and obviously, watching the plant mature. But it seems this is developing more like a piece of artwork, say, chiseling a stone sculpture. Start with a rough draft, and work away at it to get something useful. 

:::I feel like I am going in circles, so maybe let's sketch out a bureaucrat I think would be healthy for Wikiversity, and how they might work. Obviously, this isn't the only sort of bureaucrat that would be useful for Wikiversity, but I'll describe one which is easiest for me to do right now. So, let's see...the bureaucrat will be just a normal editor on almost all pages on Wikiversity, with the exception of those directly related to creating custodians. They will not see custodianship as a too much of a political process. Policies will tend to be seen as descriptive, not prescriptive. Possibly a wikignome by nature. They will incline on promoting liberally - particular, for those users who seem to be dedicated to generating content on Wikiversity. The custodial bit is seen as a source of convenience for users, not as a source of autonomy. Possibly see Wikiversity more in an &quot;eventualist&quot; light instead of &quot;immediatist&quot; one (or whatever the neologism is). Promotions don't need to happen on fixed schedules. Track record of dedication to the project. OK, so much for now. How does this sketch look? Is this a &quot;good&quot; bureaucrat for Wikiversity? --[[User:HappyCamper|HappyCamper]] 04:03, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

== Ambassador ==

Is there a better designation than [[w:Bureacrat|Bureacrat]]? Can this be changed to something like [[w:Ambassador|Ambassador]] at least for Wikiversity? [[User:CQ|CQ]] 14:21, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

==How many bureaucrats does Wikiversity need?==
How long is a piece of string? Any answer to this will be too vague, I feel. [[User:Cormaggio|Cormaggio]] &lt;sup&gt;&lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Cormaggio|talk]]&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 16:12, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
;Simpler question
Does Wikiversity need more than two bureaucrats?

*Wikinews has 5 bcrats, including Jimbo
*Wikibooks has 6, also including Jimbo
*Wiktionary has 5 bcrats
*wikimedia Commons has 9
*Wikiquote has 1 bureaucrat
*Wikisource has 1 bureaucrat
*Wikispecies has 9 bureaucrats
*the wikimedia meta-wiki has 18 bureaucrats

*englishh wikipedia has 24: &quot;gray area&quot; in bureaucrat judging of consensus in community discussion of sysop candidates
*german wikipedia has 2; set rule: 2/3 approval in community discussion of sysop candidates

==Call for bureaucrats==
Currently, we only have one active bureaucrat (Jtneill) and SB Johnny has recently returned but only temporarily. The other bureaucrats are currently non-active or intermittent. It would be preferable to have at least two active bureaucrats for a range of reasons. Personally, I am coming up soon to a very busy part of the university year and then a summer break. Who would you like to see as a WV bureaucrat? -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 02:05, 12 August 2010 (UTC)
:My first choice is Cormaggio. My second choice is Mikeu. I wish they would return. [[User:Ottava Rima|Ottava Rima]] ([[User talk:Ottava Rima|talk]])  02:50, 12 August 2010 (UTC)
::Darklama? [[User:Geoff Plourde|Geoff Plourde]] 06:48, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

: Bureaucratship and custodianship should be not so much unlaid as unpaid. How to keep them unlaid while anyone is too busy elsewhere? A KISS is she is to ''kiss'' a surrogate, proxy, or agent at her own risk. The current disruption here may be mainly attributable to bureaucracy of practical vacancy, I suspect. --&amp;nbsp;[[User:KYPark|KYPark]] [[User talk:KYPark|[T]]] 11:31, 12 August 2010 (UTC) &lt;!-- As per the time sequence, this comment is moved ahead of mikeu's that jutted out later and higher than this, strangely to me. Nevertheless, self-evidently, mikeu is responding to Jtneill and Ottava as well as KYPark is.  -- KYPark [T] 01:18, 13 August 2010 (UTC) --&gt;

Let me know what I can do to lighten the load, James. I do have a number of content projects that have been on the back burner for some time that I would like to get back to, so I'll be around a bit more the next few weeks and hopefully much more active from next month on.  Thanks, Ottava. --[[User:Mu301|mikeu]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Mu301|talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 16:59, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

== Appointing curators ==

Who is appointing Curators? They are not listed here nor for Custodian policy. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 18:38, 9 May 2026 (UTC)

:Excellent point. I've added curators to the user roles/rights that can be provided by bureaucrats. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 04:32, 10 May 2026 (UTC)

== Hierarchy ==

So does it mean, that one can become a bureaucrat without being an custodian? [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 18:42, 9 May 2026 (UTC)

:As this isn't specified, I think its possible to become a bureaucrat without being a custodian (e.g., maybe an experienced, trusted user who has these rights in another project). But I think a more common pathway would be a user who is an en.wv custodian becoming a bureaucrat. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 04:25, 10 May 2026 (UTC)</text>
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      <text bytes="54821" sha1="n7x7q9f9gyapaye2z5vjeznuwo4sav2" xml:space="preserve">The roles for bureaucrats are not the same at all Wikimedia Foundation projects. For example, one of the key duties of bureaucrats is to turn wiki users into sysops (called [[Wikiversity:Custodianship|custodians]] at Wikiversity). The Wikiversity community should decide if there is some set level of community support required for custodianship or if bureaucrats can exercise some discretion at the end of a community discussion about a candidate for custodianship. --[[User:JWSchmidt|JWSchmidt]] 23:39, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

== Responsibilities of bureaucrats ==

Well, before we can really begin drafting this policy, I think we first need to take a comprehensive look at the technical rights of bureaucrats, the &quot;non-technical&quot; rights of bureaucrats, and the responsibilities of bureaucrats on enwikiversity. 

*'''Technical rigts''': To get the obvious out of the way: bureaucrats are the only local user group capable of granting a user SysOp rights--the policy of when this permission can be used is covered (to some extent) in [[Wikiversity:Custodianship]], so I'm not sure this policy will need to elaborate much upon this. Bureaucrats are also the only local group capable of granting a user Bureaucrat status--the main purpose of this policy is to decide upon when they can and cannot do this. Among their other technical rights are the ability to rename local users and the ability to grant a user bot status. I think it very important that enwikiversity draft both a user renaming policy and a thorough [[Wikiversity:Bots|bot policy]], both of which we lack at the moment. 

*'''Non-technical rights''': On enwiki, we regard Bureaucrats as the ultimate judges of consensus--I believe we should maintain this idea in our Bureaucratship policy. Only bureacrats should be able to close requests for adminship and bureaucratship, approve or reject requests for name changes, and I would also like to propose that they be final authority in requests for bot status. While our focus here isn't a bot approvals process, I would suggest that we use a process similar to RfA for bot status, where users are granted bot status based upon community consensus and where the bureaucrats are the judges of this consensus.

*'''What crats can't do although it's logical to think that they could''': Bureaucrats do not have the technically ability nor the authority to revoke ''any'' user status--crat, bot, or sysop. Requests for desysopping and the like must go through the [[m:Stewards]]. Note that this issue is truly not one that can be debated--'twas set in stone long ago due to a crat gone mad on enwiki.

*'''Expectations of bureaucrats''': First and foremost, bureacrats must be well-trusted members of the community. They must have exceptional understanding of the way things work on Wikiversity and must be ''excellent'' judges of consensus. They must demonstrate through their extensive contributions to Wikiversity that they are not rash in decision-making nor incivil nor incompetent. Also of primary importance is a bureaucrat's ability to thoroughly explain and defend the decisions or he or she makes as well the ability to admit fault. 

Anyway this is just some random babbling/brainstorming. Please discuss :). [[User:AmiDaniel|AmiDaniel]] ([[User talk:AmiDaniel|talk]]) 07:22, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

:&lt;nowiki&gt;{{Subst:blabber-warning1-n|Wikiversity talk:Bureaucratship}}&lt;/nowiki&gt;, Yes, I'd agree with all of what you just said, infact with some rewording I say we have our policy draft ;) [[User:MichaelBillington|Michael Billington]] ([[User talk:MichaelBillington|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/MichaelBillington|contribs]]) 07:40, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

:At the end of community discussions about custodian candidates, should there be any room for judgment by bureaucrats or should they just just do what the community decides (for example, 2/3 approval from participants in the community discussion means automatic approval by the bureaucrats)? What happens if bureaucrats have a disagreement? Does Wikiversity need more than two bureaucrats? --[[User:JWSchmidt|JWSchmidt]] 02:31, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

::Well, we don't want mindless drones as bureaucrats, so I think it's good to advise that (at least some) judgement should be used. But I do think that 2 thirds sounds good as a guide, (that's around 67%), which although not a strong consensus, reflects a good majority. If there is a dispute then you just cut out any sock votes, and see if it is above or below 2/3, otherwise we can just trust their judgement. [[User:MichaelBillington|Michael Billington]] ([[User talk:MichaelBillington|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/MichaelBillington|contribs]]) 03:15, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

:::You know, there might be an advantage to keep this process entirely ambiguous. Suppose we declare a threshold of 50% promotion, but in practise, essentially near unanimous support is needed. No well meaning bureaucrat candidate would aim to get 50% support, because if they did, it would signify that they are not in tune with the public consciousness that oversees this site. --[[User:HappyCamper|HappyCamper]] 03:42, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

::::2/3 makes sense only if the participants have [[meta:consensus|agreed to disagree]].  If there is but one strong objection with reason, the discussion should continue.--[[User:Hillgentleman|Hillgentleman]]|[[User talk:hillgentleman|User talk]] 11:40, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

:::::I am in favour of having a minimum amount of votes, before a decision can be made. One of the problems on wikipedia is that the ones who create the articles are not the ones who make the decisions.--[[User:Daanschr|Daanschr]] 09:56, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
::::::Granted, Wikiversity isn't the place to fix the problems from Wikipedia though...but I do like the idea. One way to do this, is to set this threshold proportional to the number of active participants, and simply have the nomination open until it is met. There will be some technicalities involved, but might be worthwhile looking into. --[[User:HappyCamper|HappyCamper]] 15:32, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

(unindenting) I personally am not a fan of hardcoding rules about what percent of the populus needs to support someone for him to be made an admin. In theory, all custodianship &quot;elections&quot; should actually be ''discussions'' where the goal is attaining consensus, in which case the bureaucrat should then be required to not just look at numbers of supporters vs. opposers, but rather to thoroughly read through the discussion and determine what the true ''consensus'' of the community is. Nonetheless, that is often an idealist concept, and it may be a methodology that we will not be able to maintain for long. In any case, however, I belive that, though adminship is truly not a big deal, if ''one third'' or more of the community has good reason to oppose handing someone the mop, that person should not be made an admin--I would personally favor a much higher level of needed support (75-80%) before a Bureaucrat even considers making a user an admin. Codifying consensus clearly has its benefits--it spares crats a lot of work if they just have to look at numbers and it gives them an easy way to respond to disputes that arise about their actions, by simply citing numbers. But it is not the wiki way, nor should the task of bureaucrats simply be to count votes. I rather believe the most important quality of a prospective bureaucrat to be the ability to reasonably judge ''consensus'' without counting votes, the ability to make tough decisions, and the ability to adequately to defend oneself when making such decisions. That, I belive, should be our focus, rather than deciding what percentage of support constitutes consensus in all situations. Do keep in mind that [[m:Polling is evil]] and should be avoided where possible. Now to address Daanschr's concerns that &quot;the ones who create the articles are not the ones who make the decisions&quot;--I personally believe it best so; the major article writers tend to be the ones least concerned with administrivia such as blocking policies and deletion policies  and the tedious boring tasks of clearing categories such as [[w:CAT:NSD]]. The job of an administrator is to be well-versed in policy matters, to have excellent common sense, and to serve as diplomats in disputes--while writing featured articles is an excellent way to gain knowledge in how to deal with disputes, it is by far not the only way, and I find that the major article writers tend to be the least capable of maintaining neutrality. Note as well that administrative permissions provide you, in theory at least, with no higher status in the community, no more influence in policy matters, and certainly not any extra tools to help you write better articles. Administrators are just that--administrators; they deal with administrative issues. Similarly, Bureaucrats deal with bureaucratic issues such as renaming users, flagging bots, and processing requests for adminship. Neither admins nor bureaucrats nor checkusers nor any other user group should have any greater influence over individual articles nor the policies governing all users and articles than any other user. Okay, ending babbling now. :D [[User:AmiDaniel|AmiDaniel]] ([[User talk:AmiDaniel|talk]]) 18:01, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

:I don't like the idea of always trying to get consensus. The result of this is unending discussions on policy and a conservative, defensive community. I would prefer to have a system which can be able to changed things. Such a system could be top-down with a clear leader, who can make tough decisions, a kind of democratic system where majorities can overrule minorities, or a corporate system where institutes within Wikiversity can have a say on policy. It depends on what Wikiversity will try to become. At the moment it is not clear at all what it will be.--[[User:Daanschr|Daanschr]] 18:18, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

::And contrarily, the concept of a top-down hierarchial power structure sends shivers up my spine, as no individual, or even group of individuals, can possibly have the best know-how in all situations. I find that, in a wiki structure, discussion seems to be the best way at attaining results, as it allows for people's opinions to be influenced, allows for more equality among membrs of the community, and helps to prevent narrow, dogmatic views on issues. Sure, it takes longer, but I find the results tend to be much more beneficial. Note as well that by consensus I don't mean that everyone has to agree upon something for it to be done, but rather that decisions should be made by the community as a whole rather than just a handful of individuals, or even a narrow majority of the community. [[User:AmiDaniel|AmiDaniel]] ([[User talk:AmiDaniel|talk]]) 18:31, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

:::I don't believe very much in individualism. People are very conformistic regardless of rhetorics to promote individualism. I agree with you that the group of people who decide shouldn't be too small. The process of decision-making should be as inclusive as possible, but inclusiveness doesn't necessarily have to be individualistic.--[[User:Daanschr|Daanschr]] 19:04, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

::::Wikiversity is a wiki, which means that it must work as a collaborative process. The best means to maintaining the motivation and participation of all involved in a wiki is to recognise that there is often a diversity of points of view, and that this diversity needs to be reflected in the consensus-of-the-time (which can itself be discussed and changed). We have to recognise that individuals bring particular viewpoints to the community, and that individuals have needs in terms of being heard, being valued etc. So we must place some value in individualism. But we are also here to create a collaborative project - which means we need to be able to listen to one another, discuss openly, and sometimes take criticism. All of this applies to anyone - including custodians and bureaucrats. But we can't give up our base of consensus - otherwise it would not be a truly collaborative project. [[User:Cormaggio|Cormaggio]] &lt;sup&gt;&lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Cormaggio|talk]]&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 20:20, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

:::::Having said that, we should state that consensus has its limitations - it can be misused, and it can be misinterpreted. I think it's a risk that Wiki participants implicitly accept. --[[User:HappyCamper|HappyCamper]] 22:43, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

:&lt;b&gt;Polling is not evil.&lt;/b&gt;  It is a concise way to evaluate a large group's weighted position.  Anyone claiming to be able to accurately judge the &quot;consensus&quot; of a large group discussion without some kind of a straw poll ....   Further, it is unlikely that a large fraction of participants at wikiversity will actually care enough about who operates the mops to participate repeatedly in &quot;consensus&quot; building.  Sometimes, temporary closure can be a beautiful thing.  I think initially most administrative functions, including bureaucrat status, should be fairly easily attained and moderately easily removed if people so trusted cannot learn to wield their priveleges/responsibilities effectively.   This was the case when Wikipedia was a startup and helped grow the community and encyclopedia to critical mass.  Of course, Wikipedia had a formal clearcut organizational structure that was fairly flat.  There was the God King, the developers, everyone else.  Adminship was essentially the result of having sufficient experience with the wiki and the community to be trusted to avoid really foolish blunders and trusted to be willing to help fix mistakes.  At the moment Wikiversity is vertically taller than early Wikipedia was by approximately a Board of Directors, a committee, and possibly an informal subcommittee, stewards and bureaurcrats and custodians.  Custodianship is not automatic after an initial introduction period.   Anybody think this tall fuzzy infrastructure is helpful in retaining newcomers?  How could we emulate the early structure of Wikipedia?  Well perhaps once a year we could have a vote for an honorary &quot;God King&quot; who could occasionally decide tough issues for the community (those urgently requiring dramatic prompt action for the greater good or at least to avoid the greater bad ...) but usually keep quiet and let the community argue it out.  Obviously our &quot;God King&quot; would not have the real authority that Jimbo started out with and has carefully preserved by stacking the Wikimedia Foundation board .... still I expect the Board (or a committee or a steward or a local bureaucrat or a local participant) might listen carefully when the honorary Wikiversity God King speaks regarding Wikiversity issues considering the position as a community spokesperson has been numerically substantiated by a majority of the votes cast determined legitimate and counted.   Perhaps we should include term limits or restrict the candidates to former bureaucrats???  Notice that if you consider voting evil that can dramatically reduce the voting.  One vote once a year and then the God King can help sort it all out by deciding the &quot;consensus&quot;.  No further straw polls required, unless of course the God King requests one.  [[User:71.161.11.162|71.161.11.162]] 07:47, 11 December 2006 (UTC) ([[User:Mirwin|Mirwin]])

:::Hey, hold on there...what I wrote should not be interpreted as commentary on the voting process - that was not what I had in mind at all. --[[User:HappyCamper|HappyCamper]] 15:18, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

::The structure of Wikiversity is no more hierarchical/vertical than any other Wikimedia project. What it seems you're confusing it with is the structure of Wikimedia - which is a quite separate sphere of activity to the running of this project. No project has created their own GodKing, and I believe it would be entirely inappropriate to create such a thing. Consensus isn't that hard to ascertain - if there is opposition, it will be clear on the relevant pages. If needs be, polls can certainly be used to gauge opinion. But I think you're misinterpreting the gist of the maxim &quot;voting/polls is/are evil&quot;, which should really read something like: &quot;Votes/polls can be divisive, and they should be used sparingly, with caution, and after substantial discussion, and their results should not be taken as necessarily indicating a majority or a consensus within the community&quot;. [[User:Cormaggio|Cormaggio]] &lt;sup&gt;&lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Cormaggio|talk]]&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 15:12, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

:::'''voting'''. One of the bad things that happens with polls is that they are often started before there has been any serious discussion of a topic. In a wiki, votes do not constructively substitute for discussion, collaboration and compromise. I trust both custodians and bureaucrats to discount any votes that are not closely coupled to a an argument that explains the reasoning behind the vote. --[[User:JWSchmidt|JWSchmidt]] 16:02, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

::::I don't agree that this should be the decision of the custodians and bureaucrats. I am more in favour of a system of checks and balances. The rights and duties of all involved should be clearly defined.--[[User:Daanschr|Daanschr]] 09:47, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

:::::I am familiar and comfortable with [[w:Wikipedia:Consensus]]. I guess Wikiversity needs [[Wikiversity:Consensus]] in order to make clear how this project will deal with consensus and any proposed &quot;system of checks and balances&quot;. --[[User:JWSchmidt|JWSchmidt]] 16:38, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

== informed action by bureaucrats ==

#&quot;we don't want mindless drones as bureaucrats&quot;
#&quot;the bureaucrat should read through the discussion and determine what the true consensus of the community is&quot;
#&quot;of primary importance is a bureaucrat's ability to thoroughly explain and defend the decisions or he or she makes as well the ability to admit fault&quot;
#paraphrase: sometimes the search for community consensus can bog down and bureaucrats just need to &quot;cut the knot&quot; and act

I think the &quot;logic&quot; of the above line of reasoning (points 1-4) rests on one additional idea that should be made explicit. A wiki bureaucrat should have a good understanding of the mission of the wiki and a willingness to put the success of the project ahead of consensus. Bureaucrats are in a position to do so by '''not''' acting when they are asked to act. If a bureaucrat feels that a requested action would do more harm than good, the bureaucrat can discuss the requested action before acting. &quot;[[w:Ochlocracy|Mob rule]]&quot; is a potential danger in any human social system that is guided by consensus. Bureaucrats can function as a check on this danger. Bureaucrats should be experienced wiki users who are always watching for situations in which the community might be rushing into a poor decision that does not really serve the long-term interests of the project. Also, too close adherence to policy can create problems. For example, if on the last scheduled day of a community discussion some new evidence is provided, it might be wise to extend the discussion rather than close it at the scheduled time. When bureaucrats are willing to do what is best for the project '''and''' explain what they are doing it can allow the community to be thoughtful and possibly avoid rushing into a regrettable course of action. Item #4 in the list (acting without consensus, above) is a bit trickier than failure to act. When bureaucrats feel forced into taking action in the absence of community consensus there should at least be consensus among bureaucrats and a clear explanation to the community of why the action is being taken. It makes sense to me that any bureaucrat action that is not supported by prior community consensus should be open to critical evaluation by the community. There was an interesting case at the English Wikipedia in which bureaucrats &quot;broke the rules&quot; in deciding to grant adminship to a candidate who had an unusually low level of community support. I think the Wikiversity community needs to give some thought to the best way to deal with that kind of situation. --[[User:JWSchmidt|JWSchmidt]] 19:47, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

:If precedent needs to be made, the bureaucrat better be in a position to justify this rigorously. If they cannot do this, a decision to not take action should have been taken. There is no reason why things need to be rushed here. --[[User:HappyCamper|HappyCamper]] 19:56, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

:I understand that sometimes a bureaucrat needs to act when, for example, quick action is needed but the participants are still debating which course of action to take.  I also understand that sometimes a bureaucrat may ''refuse to  act''.  But I cannot accept a bureaucrat ''acting contrarily'' to community opinion.  Even consensus amongst bureaucrats is not enough excuse.----[[User:Hillgentleman|Hillgentleman]]|[[User talk:hillgentleman|Talk]] 23:23, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

::I suppose we could make a list of everything that can &quot;trump&quot; community consensus. For example, sometimes the Wikimedia Foundation central office makes a sudden decision (such as deleting a wiki page or placing an editing ban on an individual) based on the need to protect the Foundation from legal attack or threats of legal attack. Also, there are some standing Wikimedia Foundation policies that pertain to all Wikimedia Foundation projects. I do not think we can expect a bureaucrat to simply bow to community consensus if the bureaucrat knows that there is a good reason not to initiate an action called for by a community discussion. Simply put, it is possible for community consensus to fail to identify the best course of action and it is not reasonable to tell bureaucrats that they must '''always''' do what community consensus calls for. This is similar to saying that a soldier follows orders but does have to follow an order that involves doing something illegal. However, such situations where a bureaucrat might contradict community consensus are extraordinary. For the vast majority of bureaucrat actions there is no conflict with community consensus or likelihood that anyone would ever question the action. --[[User:JWSchmidt|JWSchmidt]] 02:44, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

:::I agree with JWSchmidt that the interest of Wikiversity should be above the interest of single individuals who damage the whole project. However, too much autocratic power for bureaucrats can be damaging as well.--[[User:Daanschr|Daanschr]] 07:59, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

::::Since bureaucrats are volunteers too, I think it should be obvious that a bureaucrat can always refuse to act.  The community can always appeal the the higher hiearchy to activate some additional bureaucrats with diverse views if a cabal of consistently agreeing bureaucrats seem to consistently take action opposing the &quot;consensus&quot; of the rest of the Wikiversity community within the scope of discussion.  (I assume literature students will not be interested in dictating how engineering sections implement local java labs for finite element analysis ... unless it effects their online response from Wikimedia servers.) Just as the rest of the community participants can bow out at will and go do something else.  We probably should define what &quot;consensus&quot; means locally.   Some people seem to mean a simple majority while others seem to hold out for unanimous and yet others prefer a fuzzy definition preserving the bureaucrats independence and ability to summarize and act as they see fit.  Meanwhile, the &quot;voting is evil&quot; faction seems to prefer guessing while my own &quot;voting is ok&quot; faction prefers concise quantitative data summarizing the final instantaneous result of the discussions.   [[User:71.161.11.162|71.161.11.162]] 08:09, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
:::::I find it interesting that [http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Consensus this page about consensus] makes no attempt to define a numerical measure of consensus. --[[User:JWSchmidt|JWSchmidt]] 16:14, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

==should admins be good editors and contributors?==
I think this is an important issue and I am glad it was raised during a discussion of how bureaucrats should function as part of the process of selecting new custodians. There is danger in having custodians who do not create Wikiversity content. Such custodians can be out of touch with the difficulties faced by wiki participants while they are learning how to contribute to the project. When dealing with edits that are not obvious vandalism and that seem not to fit into the project, all custodians have to try to [[Wikiversity:Assume Good Faith|Assume Good Faith]]. A custodian who does not participate in content creation might be more likely to just roll back a strange edit or delete an unusual page without taking the time to find out what the original contributor of that content was trying to accomplish. Sometimes new editors are trying to contribute and they need help to learn how, not a swift kick from a custodian. Sometimes people show up at Wikiversity and express a desire to fight vandalism while showing no particular interest in contributing to the project. Should bureaucrats simply refuse to grant custodianship to such a candidate? --[[User:JWSchmidt|JWSchmidt]] 19:47, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

:Absolutely. --[[User:HappyCamper|HappyCamper]] 19:53, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

::But Wikipedia has been open to another type of administrator....folks who do very little work to create encyclopedia articles while doing a lot of work to revert vandalism. Should Wikiversity exclude this type of contributor from custodianship? ([http://blog.ericgoldman.org/archives/2006/12/wikipedia_will_1.htm this might be relevant]) --[[User:JWSchmidt|JWSchmidt]] 21:41, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

:::Absolutely not. --[[User:HappyCamper|HappyCamper]] 22:14, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

::::I should not be using these qualifiers because they misrepresent the complexity of the situation that we're trying to address. --[[User:HappyCamper|HappyCamper]] 22:14, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

:&quot;''folks doing very little course work...''&quot; -- Every custodian should have participated actively in ''at least one'' learning project.--[[User:Hillgentleman|Hillgentleman]]|[[User talk:hillgentleman|Talk]] 23:46, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

== So it seems... ==

So, from what I gather so far, it seems that the direction we are headed is that someone that is a bureaucrat plays a significantly more important role than a custodian. Is this assessment correct? --[[User:HappyCamper|HappyCamper]] 19:57, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

:I think that is an unavoidable conclusion. However, the ''extent'' to which bureaucrats should have the power to, for example, carry through or block community decisions is not at all decided (it has only just been mentioned) - so the &quot;significantly more important&quot; part still needs to be qualified. Personally, I wouldn't like to exaggerate this importance - as I believe a bureaucrat's ''main'' role is to act as an implementer of due process (eg. making custodians, closing custodian discussions) - ''within a consensus model''. [[User:Cormaggio|Cormaggio]] &lt;sup&gt;&lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Cormaggio|talk]]&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 20:29, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

::I think that if we bothered to do a study of bureaucrat actions within Wikimedia Foundation projects we would find that the vast majority of bureaucrat actions are based on consensus and/or are never seriously questioned or discussed as being inappropriate. The excitement only comes on those rare occasions when something unusual happens. Can Wikiversity learn from what has happened in the past at other projects or do we just have to wait until our own conflicts arise? Alternatively, do we just reject the idea that &quot;we don't want mindless drones as bureaucrats&quot; and insist that bureaucrats function as drones who only throw the switches after enough votes have been cast? --[[User:JWSchmidt|JWSchmidt]] 20:51, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

:::I doubt if anyone would endorse a &quot;mindless&quot; flicking of the switch - the bureaucrat's actions (to carry out or oppose a community decision) need to be justified - ''particularly'' the latter (which I hope wouldn't arise). [[User:Cormaggio|Cormaggio]] &lt;sup&gt;&lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Cormaggio|talk]]&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 21:24, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
::::In fact, I think the rule has to be more than just &quot;bureaucrats who act without first attaining the usual level of community consensus need to be ready to explain their action&quot;. The rule should be something like &quot;an explanation for the action must be provided along with evidence that the action is based on consensus among a specified group of bureaucrats&quot;. I think the real problems have arisen at Wikipedia when  bureaucrats have adopted a &quot;bunker mentality&quot;, do not try to explain their actions until forced to do so, and call people who questions their actions &quot;troll&quot;. This kind of behavior has been rare, but it is very destructive to a sense of community, even if the controversial bureaucrat action was correct. --[[User:JWSchmidt|JWSchmidt]] 22:02, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

:::::I started this thread because I feel uncomfortable with the emerging view of what a bureaucrat is on Wikiversity to date. I'm still thinking about this thread... --[[User:HappyCamper|HappyCamper]] 22:37, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

::::::I don't understand the idea that bureaucrats can be mindless drones. I guess that it will be impossible for bureaucrats to explain all actions to everyone when the organization grows into a huge moloch like Wikipedia. A friend of mine is admin on Wikipedia and he says that nothing will change there in how the organization is ruled. Well, that is very easy to maintain. But what if change can be considered as good. There needs to be a political system that can be open to change. Being open to change means having to deal with serious resentment, in which consensus and open discussion will not be possible anymore.

::::::Before preceding, i would like to keep in mind the goal of Wikiversity and the organizations within it. How is this discussion going to relate to the establishment of schools and courses, advocating interlingual debates, establishing learning materials? The constitution of Wikiversity should be able to support the organization in its daily functioning. To cast an idea: A corporate system could be that decisions are taken by the schools and by groups who organize debates, thereby circumventing those who only take part in discussions at the top of the establishment as seems to be the practise at Wikipedia.--[[User:Daanschr|Daanschr]] 08:19, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

:::::::''JWSchmidt'': I agree that such a &quot;bunker mentality&quot; could be very destructive to this community. I would not like to have to make any decision which alienated a subset of this community. I furthermore think that hierarchical structures could undermine the whole process of seeking consensus, which is fundamental to our work. Any view of a bureaucrat's &quot;power&quot; ''must'' be embedded ''within'' this model, not somehow supplanting it.
:::::::''HappyCamper'': I'm worried. What emerging view of bureaucratship are you uncomfortable with? I really want you to feel free to express your thoughts openly. Does my above note address your fears at all?
:::::::''Daanschr'': I think change is fundamental to our entire modus operandi, even our raison d'etre (my second time using that phrase in two days!). I think it would be terrible to recreate a system that made participants feel they could make no lasting impact on the project - even if this belief was misguided. But, while I completely endorse the development of a whole system that would sustain this project, I'm a little confused by your idea here - what decisions would need to be taken at the school level that would require custodian or bureaucrat input? [[User:Cormaggio|Cormaggio]] &lt;sup&gt;&lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Cormaggio|talk]]&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 14:47, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

For instance how the policy of [[Wikiversity:Cite sources|citing]] and [[Wikiversity:Verifiability|verifying]] [[Wikiversity:Reliable sources|reliable sources]] can be implemented. But also how [[Learning to learn a wiki way]], [[Wikiversity:Scholarly ethics|Scholarly Ethics]] or my idea of trying to gain the respect of the academic world can be implemented. This can also be decided for at school level, so each school can determine for itself on how to use it or by not using it at all.

Happycamper, i quess the stewarts of the Wikimedia Foundation are still in charge here. When a bureaucrat behaves in such a way that it damages the community considerably, then the stewarts can interphere isn't it? It would be funny if that is the case. The whole Wiki community would serve like a medieval monastic order.--[[User:Daanschr|Daanschr]] 15:26, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

:The stewards typically do not intervene unless requested by the community - in fact, I think they are instructed not to ever jump in. ''Daanschr'', actually, you raise quite a good point, so maybe we should share some ideas on a different page regarding academics and such. I think I have a fairly good idea what your concerns are. Maybe after this bureaucrat thing is done we can talk more. I don't know if I can keep up with two different threads. ''Cormaggio'' - not to worry, I was happy to read your posts. --[[User:HappyCamper|HappyCamper]] 16:26, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

::I would be happy to start such a page.--[[User:Daanschr|Daanschr]] 10:14, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

:::Such a page would be excellent to have. What about [[Wikiversity:Academic standards]], [[Wikiversity:Methodology]], or [[Wikiversity:Scholarly practice]]? Alternatively (or, perhaps, in parallel), we could develop [[Wikiversity:Scholarly ethics]], [[Wikiversity:Academic freedom]], [[Wikiversity:Verifiability]], [[Wikiversity:Cite sources]], [[Wikiversity:Reliable sources]], [[Wikiversity:Wikiversity outreach]], or others which I may have temporarily forgotten.. [[User:Cormaggio|Cormaggio]] &lt;sup&gt;&lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Cormaggio|talk]]&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 16:26, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

::::Academic standards sounds good, or what about 'academic expertise'?--[[User:Daanschr|Daanschr]] 18:27, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

To give a little insight into why the model for RfA we have here was chosen: an experience I and others have made in other projects is that the process for attaining adminship can become exceedingly arduous and personal. More often than not it ends up consisting of an evaluation of a user's entire history of contributions rather than their fitness for adminship. This is partially due to the fact that at most other projects there's usually no concrete experience with the user exercising admin features prior to the RfA. So the community is forced to use other points of reference to evaluate the candidate.

At Wikiversity, we've created a process that's different from that. Candidates for custodianship are required to be mentored for four weeks, after which they are evaluated by their mentor. The point of this process is for a candidate to have the opportunity to exercise custodian tools and demonstrate the way in which they would conduct themselves as full custodians. If the mentor provides a favorable recommendation, the candidate can apply for full custodianship, subject to community discussion. The final decision in this matter lies with the bureaucrats who are expected to evaluate the mentorship period, the recommendation and community feedback. It's not so much a question of consensus but of informed decision-making considering the interests of Wikiversity as a collaborative project as the highest priority. For other issues, I would expect for bureaucrats to act in the same thoughtful and constructive manner. [[User:sebmol|sebmol]] [[User talk:sebmol|&lt;sup&gt;?&lt;/sup&gt;]] 16:49, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

:&quot;trying to gain the respect of the academic world&quot; &lt;-- I think many people outside of the wiki world are baffled by how wikis function. It is natural for people to assume that wiki &quot;support staff&quot; somehow have special control over the content of Wikimedia Foundation project wikis. There is actually a more subtle and  interesting relationship between the special tasks that can be performed only by &quot;[[Wikiversity:Support staff|Support staff]]&quot; and the &quot;real work&quot; that is done by all wiki participants to actually develop the project. The term &quot;custodian&quot; was selected as the Wikiversity term for &quot;sysop&quot; partly in an attempt to stress the idea that it is not a very exciting position to hold. Picture custodians who quietly sweep the floor when a school is closed at the end of the day. My hope is that if we can do a good job of engineering the Wikiversity rules for support staff then it will be possible for custodians and bureaucrats to be almost invisible to the bulk of the community. Most wikiversity participants should be able to get on with the &quot;real work&quot; of the wiki and all they need to know is how to do is call a custodian in case a toilet blocks up and some mopping is needed. While we can strive to make &quot;support staff&quot; invisible, every action taken by wiki &quot;support staff&quot; needs to be open to review; if there is ever a problem caused by &quot;support staff&quot; then the community needs to be able to correct it. At Wikipedia there are occasionally calls for some kind of formal oversight for &quot;support staff&quot; such as periodic performance reviews. The system that has developed to deal with &quot;support staff&quot; problems is more adversarial and crisis-oriented. If someone perceives a problem with Wikipedia &quot;support staff&quot; then in order to correct it seems like there often has to be a formal and legalistic case brought before the arbitration committee. One way that &quot;support staff&quot; can get in the &quot;dog house&quot; is by trying to use their special tools to take control of wiki content. The bottom line is, &quot;support staff&quot; can only indirectly influence &quot;respect of the academic world&quot; by keeping a clean house within Wikiversity (cleaning up vandalism, etc). It is really up to &quot;regular&quot; Wikiversity participants to gain the respect of the academic world. However, it may be useful for Wikiversity to create a new type of &quot;functionary&quot; that can specialize for &quot;professional&quot; contacts with the academic world. There are some ideas along this line [[Wikiversity:Review board#Ambassadorial function|here]]. --[[User:JWSchmidt|JWSchmidt]] 17:37, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

::If the scholarly ethics will be enforced by the support staff, then their roll will not be invisible. Do you mean with invisible that the support staff will only be concerned with fighting vandalism? The arbitration comittee has made decisions which are questionable. I wouldn't like to have such an institution on Wikiversity.--[[User:Daanschr|Daanschr]] 10:14, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

:::I think that, on scholarly ethics and all other principles of good practice here, while they are vital to developing a high quality resource, I don't think they are of immediate relevance to this discussion on what bureaucrats/support staff should do. Bureaucrats and custodians should not get involved ''in their capacities as support staff'' in the implementation of such policies - they should get involved in discussing such policies and applying them as completely equal community members. As far as I can see it, the only policies that would be of direct relevance to a bureaucrat's or custodian's position would be those around civility - and even then, it is still a ''community'' issue, to perhaps be implemented by a member of the &quot;support staff&quot;. What other types of policies could be enforceable by support staff? [[User:Cormaggio|Cormaggio]] &lt;sup&gt;&lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Cormaggio|talk]]&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 16:26, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

::::I am in favour of a democratic system at the moment, something like the Germans have. A system that ensures that change is possible and at the same time makes it possible that as much of people as possible are directly included in making decisions.--[[User:Daanschr|Daanschr]] 18:15, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

:::::Speaking generally, there are two types of actions taken by custodians and bureaucrats:
:::::1) actions that are best taken after a group of people have thought about them and discussed the matter
:::::2) actions that are so trivial that it would probably be a waste of time to hold a formal discussion before acting.
:::::Under such a system, when someone feels that they want to be more involved in the decisions that are made by custodians and bureaucrats it is possible to increase the amount of discussion that is required before a particular type of action is taken. Also, custodian and bureaucrat actions are reversible. Even after an action has been made people can go back, question, discuss and correct. &quot;a democratic system ..... something like the Germans have&quot; &lt;-- can you explain what you mean? --[[User:JWSchmidt|JWSchmidt]] 19:39, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

::::::With the German system i mean what has been written at the start of this page ''german wikipedia has 2; set rule: 2/3 approval in community discussion of sysop candidates''.
::::::You wrote above ''We don't want mindless drones as bureaucrats''. This sounds nice, but it is hard to determine who is mindless and who is not.
::::::You wrote above ''When bureaucrats feel forced into taking action in the absence of community consensus there should at least be consensus among bureaucrats and a clear explanation to the community of why the action is being taken. It makes sense to me that any bureaucrat action that is not supported by prior community consensus should be open to critical evaluation by the community.'' Here the definition of community puzzles me. How is it possible that if a community can't reach consensus, and the bureacrats make the decision, that the same community is able to revert the decision, which will be hard if there is no consensus. In essence it means that the bureaucrats decide.--[[User:Daanschr|Daanschr]] 20:52, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

::::::I misread the line on the Germans. It deals with choosing sysops.--[[User:Daanschr|Daanschr]] 21:00, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

:::::::My attribution to this discussion was not very strong, so i will leave it up to others. It is an exiting moment in Dutch politics at the moment. There is a possibility that there will be no cabinet. (sorry, completely unrelated)--[[User:Daanschr|Daanschr]] 22:32, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

:::::::&quot;it is hard to determine who is mindless&quot; &lt;-- At the English language Wikipedia custodians and bureaucrats are expected to judged consensus by checking to see if votes are based on reasonable discussion and votes from accounts that look like puppet accounts created just to stack the vote do not have to be counted. Just counting votes without determining that the votes are reasonable and fair is &quot;mindless&quot;; you could have a bot do it. Sometimes action by a custodian or bureaucrat can attract much attention, so much so that an issue that previously did not come to consensus among a smaller group can be decided by the consensus of a larger group. --[[User:JWSchmidt|JWSchmidt]] 23:07, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

== All Quiet on the Western Front... ==

 Wikiversity:
 For want of the bureaucrats -
 Measured, yet subtle.
 
 A bureaucracy:
 Watching; not silent nor still -
 But careful with grace.

--[[User:HappyCamper|HappyCamper]] 05:21, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

:If bureaucrats try to be invisible and only deal with issues of civility, then that would be good for me. (I have read that book: very impressive)--[[User:Daanschr|Daanschr]] 08:21, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

== New draft - ideas and such ==

Great to see things moving along! I have a few ideas which might be handy. I think it would be a good idea to aim for a document which we can expect to remain stable for say, a year or so. Wikiversity is still reasonably young, and I think planning ahead with a time horizon of around 12-16 months in mind is not too unreasonable. This might help us focus on having this page meet Wikiversity's current needs, while leaving the door open to flexibility as the editing environment changes.

I think it might be easier to modify this draft if we discuss each section starting from top to bottom, with less emphasis between how the sections interrelate. Once we have done this, we can look at the resulting document as a whole to see if there are any inconsistencies between what is written and what our philosophies for the bureaucrat role should be. Roughly speaking, I think the discussions we had 4-5 months ago approached this page in the other direction, so it might be fruitful to try the another way.

What is written so far seems reasonable. The concerns I have at the moment are primarily &quot;semantic&quot; - I think we need to clarify certain things. For example, in the first section, what does &quot;well-trusted&quot; really mean? How about the word &quot;consensus&quot;? Or &quot;civility&quot;? Let me focus on trust in this thread.

I think there are two distinct notions here we should document - the first relates to bureaucratship, say, as an &quot;administrative role&quot;, and the second relates to bureaucrat as a &quot;representative role&quot;. In the former, the ideal bureaucrat is probably someone who generally interprets policy in such a way that maximizes consistency and minimizes surprise. That is, they act in a way which can be reasonably anticipated by the community. In the latter, the bureaucrat is someone who the community feels is a positive influence on Wikiversity, likely someone not particularly polarizing, with a well rounded knowledge of the site. The bureaucrat is someone who would be a good ambassador for Wikiversity.

However, even this brief sketch seems problematic as it seems to open the door to a policy where the bureaucrat bit can be granted relatively liberally. This in itself is not problematic - it is the fact that it seems inconsistent with what I think the bureaucrat role is intended to be (a little more selective) which makes it so. What's the best way to proceed? Perhaps this sketch is really a non-issue, but I thought it might be a good idea just to write this down. We should probably aim for policy which balances these concerns nicely, so that its consequences are manageable by the community. Enough writing for now! I will try shorter tidbits next time. --[[User:HappyCamper|HappyCamper]] 22:23, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

:&quot;planning ahead with a time horizon of around 12-16 months in mind is not too unreasonable&quot; &lt;-- In your thinking, is it likely that this &quot;time horizon&quot; will include a real Wikiversity crisis in which the project might benefit from having a good set of bcrat guidelines in place, rather than the alternative of the community struggling through a crisis without the aid of good guidelines and then getting around to making useful policy only after the crisis is over? By &quot;good guidelines &quot; I mean that we would be able to learn from challenges that have previously been faced by other wiki projects.--[[User:JWSchmidt|JWSchmidt]] 23:38, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

::Learning from previous challenges on other projects - this sounds like a learning project in its own right. :-) I think it would be great to pursue such a project - but there's also an inevitability about us having to learn through this process ourselves in this (local) context. We will never be able to learn everything in advance - nor prepare for every inevitability - but we should endeavour to have as much of the process as clearly defined as possible, always leaving room for fresh and critical thinking, judgement, and reflexivity. Part of this is working through what terms like [[Wikiversity:Consensus|&quot;consensus&quot;]] mean - and these policies should be as clear as possible while also leaving flexibility for rethinking them in new light. For example, the notion of &quot;reasonability&quot; is fundamental to most legal systems, but what being &quot;reasonable&quot; is is a very complex notion. I don't think we need to recreate an entire legal system, but rather develop a model of consensus that will work for as long as it needs to. Wikiversity's development over a timeframe of 12-16 months sounds good as a thought experiment to start off with, however. :-) [[User:Cormaggio|Cormaggio]] &lt;sup&gt;&lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Cormaggio|talk]]&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 00:29, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

:::Well, 12-16 months is arbitrary. Ideally, it would be nice if we could come up with something that would be workable for all time, but that does not seem achievable. So, I just picked a number that was less than infinity...something which seems manageable (at least to me). Basically, a neat concept to suggest that we should not try and solve all the possible problems that might crop up. I didn't think of the phrase &quot;thought experiment&quot;, but actually, that's a very nice way of putting it :-) I didn't have a potential Wikiversity crisis in mind when I wrote my previous post. I'll have to think about it, but maybe I'll offer an idea that perhaps a &quot;crisis&quot; on a Wiki generally turns policy into a source of polarization.

:::Here's another metaphor which might be useful. Originally, I thought that policies here would develop sort of like growing plants from seeds. A little water and sunlight (ie. edits to the page) here and there...and obviously, watching the plant mature. But it seems this is developing more like a piece of artwork, say, chiseling a stone sculpture. Start with a rough draft, and work away at it to get something useful. 

:::I feel like I am going in circles, so maybe let's sketch out a bureaucrat I think would be healthy for Wikiversity, and how they might work. Obviously, this isn't the only sort of bureaucrat that would be useful for Wikiversity, but I'll describe one which is easiest for me to do right now. So, let's see...the bureaucrat will be just a normal editor on almost all pages on Wikiversity, with the exception of those directly related to creating custodians. They will not see custodianship as a too much of a political process. Policies will tend to be seen as descriptive, not prescriptive. Possibly a wikignome by nature. They will incline on promoting liberally - particular, for those users who seem to be dedicated to generating content on Wikiversity. The custodial bit is seen as a source of convenience for users, not as a source of autonomy. Possibly see Wikiversity more in an &quot;eventualist&quot; light instead of &quot;immediatist&quot; one (or whatever the neologism is). Promotions don't need to happen on fixed schedules. Track record of dedication to the project. OK, so much for now. How does this sketch look? Is this a &quot;good&quot; bureaucrat for Wikiversity? --[[User:HappyCamper|HappyCamper]] 04:03, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

== Ambassador ==

Is there a better designation than [[w:Bureacrat|Bureacrat]]? Can this be changed to something like [[w:Ambassador|Ambassador]] at least for Wikiversity? [[User:CQ|CQ]] 14:21, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

==How many bureaucrats does Wikiversity need?==
How long is a piece of string? Any answer to this will be too vague, I feel. [[User:Cormaggio|Cormaggio]] &lt;sup&gt;&lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Cormaggio|talk]]&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 16:12, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
;Simpler question
Does Wikiversity need more than two bureaucrats?

*Wikinews has 5 bcrats, including Jimbo
*Wikibooks has 6, also including Jimbo
*Wiktionary has 5 bcrats
*wikimedia Commons has 9
*Wikiquote has 1 bureaucrat
*Wikisource has 1 bureaucrat
*Wikispecies has 9 bureaucrats
*the wikimedia meta-wiki has 18 bureaucrats

*englishh wikipedia has 24: &quot;gray area&quot; in bureaucrat judging of consensus in community discussion of sysop candidates
*german wikipedia has 2; set rule: 2/3 approval in community discussion of sysop candidates

==Call for bureaucrats==
Currently, we only have one active bureaucrat (Jtneill) and SB Johnny has recently returned but only temporarily. The other bureaucrats are currently non-active or intermittent. It would be preferable to have at least two active bureaucrats for a range of reasons. Personally, I am coming up soon to a very busy part of the university year and then a summer break. Who would you like to see as a WV bureaucrat? -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 02:05, 12 August 2010 (UTC)
:My first choice is Cormaggio. My second choice is Mikeu. I wish they would return. [[User:Ottava Rima|Ottava Rima]] ([[User talk:Ottava Rima|talk]])  02:50, 12 August 2010 (UTC)
::Darklama? [[User:Geoff Plourde|Geoff Plourde]] 06:48, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

: Bureaucratship and custodianship should be not so much unlaid as unpaid. How to keep them unlaid while anyone is too busy elsewhere? A KISS is she is to ''kiss'' a surrogate, proxy, or agent at her own risk. The current disruption here may be mainly attributable to bureaucracy of practical vacancy, I suspect. --&amp;nbsp;[[User:KYPark|KYPark]] [[User talk:KYPark|[T]]] 11:31, 12 August 2010 (UTC) &lt;!-- As per the time sequence, this comment is moved ahead of mikeu's that jutted out later and higher than this, strangely to me. Nevertheless, self-evidently, mikeu is responding to Jtneill and Ottava as well as KYPark is.  -- KYPark [T] 01:18, 13 August 2010 (UTC) --&gt;

Let me know what I can do to lighten the load, James. I do have a number of content projects that have been on the back burner for some time that I would like to get back to, so I'll be around a bit more the next few weeks and hopefully much more active from next month on.  Thanks, Ottava. --[[User:Mu301|mikeu]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Mu301|talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 16:59, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

== Appointing curators ==

Who is appointing Curators? They are not listed here nor for Custodian policy. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 18:38, 9 May 2026 (UTC)

:Excellent point. I've added curators to the user roles/rights that can be provided by bureaucrats. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 04:32, 10 May 2026 (UTC)

== Hierarchy ==

So does it mean, that one can become a bureaucrat without being an custodian? [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 18:42, 9 May 2026 (UTC)

:As this isn't specified, I think its possible to become a bureaucrat without being a custodian (e.g., maybe an experienced, trusted user who has these rights in another project). But I think a more common pathway would be a user who is an en.wv custodian becoming a bureaucrat. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 04:25, 10 May 2026 (UTC)
::OK. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 08:05, 10 May 2026 (UTC)</text>
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      <text bytes="54957" sha1="g10x2nvof9i3ym7awosy1bkn7cu7cbk" xml:space="preserve">The roles for bureaucrats are not the same at all Wikimedia Foundation projects. For example, one of the key duties of bureaucrats is to turn wiki users into sysops (called [[Wikiversity:Custodianship|custodians]] at Wikiversity). The Wikiversity community should decide if there is some set level of community support required for custodianship or if bureaucrats can exercise some discretion at the end of a community discussion about a candidate for custodianship. --[[User:JWSchmidt|JWSchmidt]] 23:39, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

== Responsibilities of bureaucrats ==

Well, before we can really begin drafting this policy, I think we first need to take a comprehensive look at the technical rights of bureaucrats, the &quot;non-technical&quot; rights of bureaucrats, and the responsibilities of bureaucrats on enwikiversity. 

*'''Technical rigts''': To get the obvious out of the way: bureaucrats are the only local user group capable of granting a user SysOp rights--the policy of when this permission can be used is covered (to some extent) in [[Wikiversity:Custodianship]], so I'm not sure this policy will need to elaborate much upon this. Bureaucrats are also the only local group capable of granting a user Bureaucrat status--the main purpose of this policy is to decide upon when they can and cannot do this. Among their other technical rights are the ability to rename local users and the ability to grant a user bot status. I think it very important that enwikiversity draft both a user renaming policy and a thorough [[Wikiversity:Bots|bot policy]], both of which we lack at the moment. 

*'''Non-technical rights''': On enwiki, we regard Bureaucrats as the ultimate judges of consensus--I believe we should maintain this idea in our Bureaucratship policy. Only bureacrats should be able to close requests for adminship and bureaucratship, approve or reject requests for name changes, and I would also like to propose that they be final authority in requests for bot status. While our focus here isn't a bot approvals process, I would suggest that we use a process similar to RfA for bot status, where users are granted bot status based upon community consensus and where the bureaucrats are the judges of this consensus.

*'''What crats can't do although it's logical to think that they could''': Bureaucrats do not have the technically ability nor the authority to revoke ''any'' user status--crat, bot, or sysop. Requests for desysopping and the like must go through the [[m:Stewards]]. Note that this issue is truly not one that can be debated--'twas set in stone long ago due to a crat gone mad on enwiki.

*'''Expectations of bureaucrats''': First and foremost, bureacrats must be well-trusted members of the community. They must have exceptional understanding of the way things work on Wikiversity and must be ''excellent'' judges of consensus. They must demonstrate through their extensive contributions to Wikiversity that they are not rash in decision-making nor incivil nor incompetent. Also of primary importance is a bureaucrat's ability to thoroughly explain and defend the decisions or he or she makes as well the ability to admit fault. 

Anyway this is just some random babbling/brainstorming. Please discuss :). [[User:AmiDaniel|AmiDaniel]] ([[User talk:AmiDaniel|talk]]) 07:22, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

:&lt;nowiki&gt;{{Subst:blabber-warning1-n|Wikiversity talk:Bureaucratship}}&lt;/nowiki&gt;, Yes, I'd agree with all of what you just said, infact with some rewording I say we have our policy draft ;) [[User:MichaelBillington|Michael Billington]] ([[User talk:MichaelBillington|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/MichaelBillington|contribs]]) 07:40, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

:At the end of community discussions about custodian candidates, should there be any room for judgment by bureaucrats or should they just just do what the community decides (for example, 2/3 approval from participants in the community discussion means automatic approval by the bureaucrats)? What happens if bureaucrats have a disagreement? Does Wikiversity need more than two bureaucrats? --[[User:JWSchmidt|JWSchmidt]] 02:31, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

::Well, we don't want mindless drones as bureaucrats, so I think it's good to advise that (at least some) judgement should be used. But I do think that 2 thirds sounds good as a guide, (that's around 67%), which although not a strong consensus, reflects a good majority. If there is a dispute then you just cut out any sock votes, and see if it is above or below 2/3, otherwise we can just trust their judgement. [[User:MichaelBillington|Michael Billington]] ([[User talk:MichaelBillington|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/MichaelBillington|contribs]]) 03:15, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

:::You know, there might be an advantage to keep this process entirely ambiguous. Suppose we declare a threshold of 50% promotion, but in practise, essentially near unanimous support is needed. No well meaning bureaucrat candidate would aim to get 50% support, because if they did, it would signify that they are not in tune with the public consciousness that oversees this site. --[[User:HappyCamper|HappyCamper]] 03:42, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

::::2/3 makes sense only if the participants have [[meta:consensus|agreed to disagree]].  If there is but one strong objection with reason, the discussion should continue.--[[User:Hillgentleman|Hillgentleman]]|[[User talk:hillgentleman|User talk]] 11:40, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

:::::I am in favour of having a minimum amount of votes, before a decision can be made. One of the problems on wikipedia is that the ones who create the articles are not the ones who make the decisions.--[[User:Daanschr|Daanschr]] 09:56, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
::::::Granted, Wikiversity isn't the place to fix the problems from Wikipedia though...but I do like the idea. One way to do this, is to set this threshold proportional to the number of active participants, and simply have the nomination open until it is met. There will be some technicalities involved, but might be worthwhile looking into. --[[User:HappyCamper|HappyCamper]] 15:32, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

(unindenting) I personally am not a fan of hardcoding rules about what percent of the populus needs to support someone for him to be made an admin. In theory, all custodianship &quot;elections&quot; should actually be ''discussions'' where the goal is attaining consensus, in which case the bureaucrat should then be required to not just look at numbers of supporters vs. opposers, but rather to thoroughly read through the discussion and determine what the true ''consensus'' of the community is. Nonetheless, that is often an idealist concept, and it may be a methodology that we will not be able to maintain for long. In any case, however, I belive that, though adminship is truly not a big deal, if ''one third'' or more of the community has good reason to oppose handing someone the mop, that person should not be made an admin--I would personally favor a much higher level of needed support (75-80%) before a Bureaucrat even considers making a user an admin. Codifying consensus clearly has its benefits--it spares crats a lot of work if they just have to look at numbers and it gives them an easy way to respond to disputes that arise about their actions, by simply citing numbers. But it is not the wiki way, nor should the task of bureaucrats simply be to count votes. I rather believe the most important quality of a prospective bureaucrat to be the ability to reasonably judge ''consensus'' without counting votes, the ability to make tough decisions, and the ability to adequately to defend oneself when making such decisions. That, I belive, should be our focus, rather than deciding what percentage of support constitutes consensus in all situations. Do keep in mind that [[m:Polling is evil]] and should be avoided where possible. Now to address Daanschr's concerns that &quot;the ones who create the articles are not the ones who make the decisions&quot;--I personally believe it best so; the major article writers tend to be the ones least concerned with administrivia such as blocking policies and deletion policies  and the tedious boring tasks of clearing categories such as [[w:CAT:NSD]]. The job of an administrator is to be well-versed in policy matters, to have excellent common sense, and to serve as diplomats in disputes--while writing featured articles is an excellent way to gain knowledge in how to deal with disputes, it is by far not the only way, and I find that the major article writers tend to be the least capable of maintaining neutrality. Note as well that administrative permissions provide you, in theory at least, with no higher status in the community, no more influence in policy matters, and certainly not any extra tools to help you write better articles. Administrators are just that--administrators; they deal with administrative issues. Similarly, Bureaucrats deal with bureaucratic issues such as renaming users, flagging bots, and processing requests for adminship. Neither admins nor bureaucrats nor checkusers nor any other user group should have any greater influence over individual articles nor the policies governing all users and articles than any other user. Okay, ending babbling now. :D [[User:AmiDaniel|AmiDaniel]] ([[User talk:AmiDaniel|talk]]) 18:01, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

:I don't like the idea of always trying to get consensus. The result of this is unending discussions on policy and a conservative, defensive community. I would prefer to have a system which can be able to changed things. Such a system could be top-down with a clear leader, who can make tough decisions, a kind of democratic system where majorities can overrule minorities, or a corporate system where institutes within Wikiversity can have a say on policy. It depends on what Wikiversity will try to become. At the moment it is not clear at all what it will be.--[[User:Daanschr|Daanschr]] 18:18, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

::And contrarily, the concept of a top-down hierarchial power structure sends shivers up my spine, as no individual, or even group of individuals, can possibly have the best know-how in all situations. I find that, in a wiki structure, discussion seems to be the best way at attaining results, as it allows for people's opinions to be influenced, allows for more equality among membrs of the community, and helps to prevent narrow, dogmatic views on issues. Sure, it takes longer, but I find the results tend to be much more beneficial. Note as well that by consensus I don't mean that everyone has to agree upon something for it to be done, but rather that decisions should be made by the community as a whole rather than just a handful of individuals, or even a narrow majority of the community. [[User:AmiDaniel|AmiDaniel]] ([[User talk:AmiDaniel|talk]]) 18:31, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

:::I don't believe very much in individualism. People are very conformistic regardless of rhetorics to promote individualism. I agree with you that the group of people who decide shouldn't be too small. The process of decision-making should be as inclusive as possible, but inclusiveness doesn't necessarily have to be individualistic.--[[User:Daanschr|Daanschr]] 19:04, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

::::Wikiversity is a wiki, which means that it must work as a collaborative process. The best means to maintaining the motivation and participation of all involved in a wiki is to recognise that there is often a diversity of points of view, and that this diversity needs to be reflected in the consensus-of-the-time (which can itself be discussed and changed). We have to recognise that individuals bring particular viewpoints to the community, and that individuals have needs in terms of being heard, being valued etc. So we must place some value in individualism. But we are also here to create a collaborative project - which means we need to be able to listen to one another, discuss openly, and sometimes take criticism. All of this applies to anyone - including custodians and bureaucrats. But we can't give up our base of consensus - otherwise it would not be a truly collaborative project. [[User:Cormaggio|Cormaggio]] &lt;sup&gt;&lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Cormaggio|talk]]&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 20:20, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

:::::Having said that, we should state that consensus has its limitations - it can be misused, and it can be misinterpreted. I think it's a risk that Wiki participants implicitly accept. --[[User:HappyCamper|HappyCamper]] 22:43, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

:&lt;b&gt;Polling is not evil.&lt;/b&gt;  It is a concise way to evaluate a large group's weighted position.  Anyone claiming to be able to accurately judge the &quot;consensus&quot; of a large group discussion without some kind of a straw poll ....   Further, it is unlikely that a large fraction of participants at wikiversity will actually care enough about who operates the mops to participate repeatedly in &quot;consensus&quot; building.  Sometimes, temporary closure can be a beautiful thing.  I think initially most administrative functions, including bureaucrat status, should be fairly easily attained and moderately easily removed if people so trusted cannot learn to wield their priveleges/responsibilities effectively.   This was the case when Wikipedia was a startup and helped grow the community and encyclopedia to critical mass.  Of course, Wikipedia had a formal clearcut organizational structure that was fairly flat.  There was the God King, the developers, everyone else.  Adminship was essentially the result of having sufficient experience with the wiki and the community to be trusted to avoid really foolish blunders and trusted to be willing to help fix mistakes.  At the moment Wikiversity is vertically taller than early Wikipedia was by approximately a Board of Directors, a committee, and possibly an informal subcommittee, stewards and bureaurcrats and custodians.  Custodianship is not automatic after an initial introduction period.   Anybody think this tall fuzzy infrastructure is helpful in retaining newcomers?  How could we emulate the early structure of Wikipedia?  Well perhaps once a year we could have a vote for an honorary &quot;God King&quot; who could occasionally decide tough issues for the community (those urgently requiring dramatic prompt action for the greater good or at least to avoid the greater bad ...) but usually keep quiet and let the community argue it out.  Obviously our &quot;God King&quot; would not have the real authority that Jimbo started out with and has carefully preserved by stacking the Wikimedia Foundation board .... still I expect the Board (or a committee or a steward or a local bureaucrat or a local participant) might listen carefully when the honorary Wikiversity God King speaks regarding Wikiversity issues considering the position as a community spokesperson has been numerically substantiated by a majority of the votes cast determined legitimate and counted.   Perhaps we should include term limits or restrict the candidates to former bureaucrats???  Notice that if you consider voting evil that can dramatically reduce the voting.  One vote once a year and then the God King can help sort it all out by deciding the &quot;consensus&quot;.  No further straw polls required, unless of course the God King requests one.  [[User:71.161.11.162|71.161.11.162]] 07:47, 11 December 2006 (UTC) ([[User:Mirwin|Mirwin]])

:::Hey, hold on there...what I wrote should not be interpreted as commentary on the voting process - that was not what I had in mind at all. --[[User:HappyCamper|HappyCamper]] 15:18, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

::The structure of Wikiversity is no more hierarchical/vertical than any other Wikimedia project. What it seems you're confusing it with is the structure of Wikimedia - which is a quite separate sphere of activity to the running of this project. No project has created their own GodKing, and I believe it would be entirely inappropriate to create such a thing. Consensus isn't that hard to ascertain - if there is opposition, it will be clear on the relevant pages. If needs be, polls can certainly be used to gauge opinion. But I think you're misinterpreting the gist of the maxim &quot;voting/polls is/are evil&quot;, which should really read something like: &quot;Votes/polls can be divisive, and they should be used sparingly, with caution, and after substantial discussion, and their results should not be taken as necessarily indicating a majority or a consensus within the community&quot;. [[User:Cormaggio|Cormaggio]] &lt;sup&gt;&lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Cormaggio|talk]]&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 15:12, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

:::'''voting'''. One of the bad things that happens with polls is that they are often started before there has been any serious discussion of a topic. In a wiki, votes do not constructively substitute for discussion, collaboration and compromise. I trust both custodians and bureaucrats to discount any votes that are not closely coupled to a an argument that explains the reasoning behind the vote. --[[User:JWSchmidt|JWSchmidt]] 16:02, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

::::I don't agree that this should be the decision of the custodians and bureaucrats. I am more in favour of a system of checks and balances. The rights and duties of all involved should be clearly defined.--[[User:Daanschr|Daanschr]] 09:47, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

:::::I am familiar and comfortable with [[w:Wikipedia:Consensus]]. I guess Wikiversity needs [[Wikiversity:Consensus]] in order to make clear how this project will deal with consensus and any proposed &quot;system of checks and balances&quot;. --[[User:JWSchmidt|JWSchmidt]] 16:38, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

== informed action by bureaucrats ==

#&quot;we don't want mindless drones as bureaucrats&quot;
#&quot;the bureaucrat should read through the discussion and determine what the true consensus of the community is&quot;
#&quot;of primary importance is a bureaucrat's ability to thoroughly explain and defend the decisions or he or she makes as well the ability to admit fault&quot;
#paraphrase: sometimes the search for community consensus can bog down and bureaucrats just need to &quot;cut the knot&quot; and act

I think the &quot;logic&quot; of the above line of reasoning (points 1-4) rests on one additional idea that should be made explicit. A wiki bureaucrat should have a good understanding of the mission of the wiki and a willingness to put the success of the project ahead of consensus. Bureaucrats are in a position to do so by '''not''' acting when they are asked to act. If a bureaucrat feels that a requested action would do more harm than good, the bureaucrat can discuss the requested action before acting. &quot;[[w:Ochlocracy|Mob rule]]&quot; is a potential danger in any human social system that is guided by consensus. Bureaucrats can function as a check on this danger. Bureaucrats should be experienced wiki users who are always watching for situations in which the community might be rushing into a poor decision that does not really serve the long-term interests of the project. Also, too close adherence to policy can create problems. For example, if on the last scheduled day of a community discussion some new evidence is provided, it might be wise to extend the discussion rather than close it at the scheduled time. When bureaucrats are willing to do what is best for the project '''and''' explain what they are doing it can allow the community to be thoughtful and possibly avoid rushing into a regrettable course of action. Item #4 in the list (acting without consensus, above) is a bit trickier than failure to act. When bureaucrats feel forced into taking action in the absence of community consensus there should at least be consensus among bureaucrats and a clear explanation to the community of why the action is being taken. It makes sense to me that any bureaucrat action that is not supported by prior community consensus should be open to critical evaluation by the community. There was an interesting case at the English Wikipedia in which bureaucrats &quot;broke the rules&quot; in deciding to grant adminship to a candidate who had an unusually low level of community support. I think the Wikiversity community needs to give some thought to the best way to deal with that kind of situation. --[[User:JWSchmidt|JWSchmidt]] 19:47, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

:If precedent needs to be made, the bureaucrat better be in a position to justify this rigorously. If they cannot do this, a decision to not take action should have been taken. There is no reason why things need to be rushed here. --[[User:HappyCamper|HappyCamper]] 19:56, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

:I understand that sometimes a bureaucrat needs to act when, for example, quick action is needed but the participants are still debating which course of action to take.  I also understand that sometimes a bureaucrat may ''refuse to  act''.  But I cannot accept a bureaucrat ''acting contrarily'' to community opinion.  Even consensus amongst bureaucrats is not enough excuse.----[[User:Hillgentleman|Hillgentleman]]|[[User talk:hillgentleman|Talk]] 23:23, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

::I suppose we could make a list of everything that can &quot;trump&quot; community consensus. For example, sometimes the Wikimedia Foundation central office makes a sudden decision (such as deleting a wiki page or placing an editing ban on an individual) based on the need to protect the Foundation from legal attack or threats of legal attack. Also, there are some standing Wikimedia Foundation policies that pertain to all Wikimedia Foundation projects. I do not think we can expect a bureaucrat to simply bow to community consensus if the bureaucrat knows that there is a good reason not to initiate an action called for by a community discussion. Simply put, it is possible for community consensus to fail to identify the best course of action and it is not reasonable to tell bureaucrats that they must '''always''' do what community consensus calls for. This is similar to saying that a soldier follows orders but does have to follow an order that involves doing something illegal. However, such situations where a bureaucrat might contradict community consensus are extraordinary. For the vast majority of bureaucrat actions there is no conflict with community consensus or likelihood that anyone would ever question the action. --[[User:JWSchmidt|JWSchmidt]] 02:44, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

:::I agree with JWSchmidt that the interest of Wikiversity should be above the interest of single individuals who damage the whole project. However, too much autocratic power for bureaucrats can be damaging as well.--[[User:Daanschr|Daanschr]] 07:59, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

::::Since bureaucrats are volunteers too, I think it should be obvious that a bureaucrat can always refuse to act.  The community can always appeal the the higher hiearchy to activate some additional bureaucrats with diverse views if a cabal of consistently agreeing bureaucrats seem to consistently take action opposing the &quot;consensus&quot; of the rest of the Wikiversity community within the scope of discussion.  (I assume literature students will not be interested in dictating how engineering sections implement local java labs for finite element analysis ... unless it effects their online response from Wikimedia servers.) Just as the rest of the community participants can bow out at will and go do something else.  We probably should define what &quot;consensus&quot; means locally.   Some people seem to mean a simple majority while others seem to hold out for unanimous and yet others prefer a fuzzy definition preserving the bureaucrats independence and ability to summarize and act as they see fit.  Meanwhile, the &quot;voting is evil&quot; faction seems to prefer guessing while my own &quot;voting is ok&quot; faction prefers concise quantitative data summarizing the final instantaneous result of the discussions.   [[User:71.161.11.162|71.161.11.162]] 08:09, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
:::::I find it interesting that [http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Consensus this page about consensus] makes no attempt to define a numerical measure of consensus. --[[User:JWSchmidt|JWSchmidt]] 16:14, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

==should admins be good editors and contributors?==
I think this is an important issue and I am glad it was raised during a discussion of how bureaucrats should function as part of the process of selecting new custodians. There is danger in having custodians who do not create Wikiversity content. Such custodians can be out of touch with the difficulties faced by wiki participants while they are learning how to contribute to the project. When dealing with edits that are not obvious vandalism and that seem not to fit into the project, all custodians have to try to [[Wikiversity:Assume Good Faith|Assume Good Faith]]. A custodian who does not participate in content creation might be more likely to just roll back a strange edit or delete an unusual page without taking the time to find out what the original contributor of that content was trying to accomplish. Sometimes new editors are trying to contribute and they need help to learn how, not a swift kick from a custodian. Sometimes people show up at Wikiversity and express a desire to fight vandalism while showing no particular interest in contributing to the project. Should bureaucrats simply refuse to grant custodianship to such a candidate? --[[User:JWSchmidt|JWSchmidt]] 19:47, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

:Absolutely. --[[User:HappyCamper|HappyCamper]] 19:53, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

::But Wikipedia has been open to another type of administrator....folks who do very little work to create encyclopedia articles while doing a lot of work to revert vandalism. Should Wikiversity exclude this type of contributor from custodianship? ([http://blog.ericgoldman.org/archives/2006/12/wikipedia_will_1.htm this might be relevant]) --[[User:JWSchmidt|JWSchmidt]] 21:41, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

:::Absolutely not. --[[User:HappyCamper|HappyCamper]] 22:14, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

::::I should not be using these qualifiers because they misrepresent the complexity of the situation that we're trying to address. --[[User:HappyCamper|HappyCamper]] 22:14, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

:&quot;''folks doing very little course work...''&quot; -- Every custodian should have participated actively in ''at least one'' learning project.--[[User:Hillgentleman|Hillgentleman]]|[[User talk:hillgentleman|Talk]] 23:46, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

== So it seems... ==

So, from what I gather so far, it seems that the direction we are headed is that someone that is a bureaucrat plays a significantly more important role than a custodian. Is this assessment correct? --[[User:HappyCamper|HappyCamper]] 19:57, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

:I think that is an unavoidable conclusion. However, the ''extent'' to which bureaucrats should have the power to, for example, carry through or block community decisions is not at all decided (it has only just been mentioned) - so the &quot;significantly more important&quot; part still needs to be qualified. Personally, I wouldn't like to exaggerate this importance - as I believe a bureaucrat's ''main'' role is to act as an implementer of due process (eg. making custodians, closing custodian discussions) - ''within a consensus model''. [[User:Cormaggio|Cormaggio]] &lt;sup&gt;&lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Cormaggio|talk]]&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 20:29, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

::I think that if we bothered to do a study of bureaucrat actions within Wikimedia Foundation projects we would find that the vast majority of bureaucrat actions are based on consensus and/or are never seriously questioned or discussed as being inappropriate. The excitement only comes on those rare occasions when something unusual happens. Can Wikiversity learn from what has happened in the past at other projects or do we just have to wait until our own conflicts arise? Alternatively, do we just reject the idea that &quot;we don't want mindless drones as bureaucrats&quot; and insist that bureaucrats function as drones who only throw the switches after enough votes have been cast? --[[User:JWSchmidt|JWSchmidt]] 20:51, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

:::I doubt if anyone would endorse a &quot;mindless&quot; flicking of the switch - the bureaucrat's actions (to carry out or oppose a community decision) need to be justified - ''particularly'' the latter (which I hope wouldn't arise). [[User:Cormaggio|Cormaggio]] &lt;sup&gt;&lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Cormaggio|talk]]&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 21:24, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
::::In fact, I think the rule has to be more than just &quot;bureaucrats who act without first attaining the usual level of community consensus need to be ready to explain their action&quot;. The rule should be something like &quot;an explanation for the action must be provided along with evidence that the action is based on consensus among a specified group of bureaucrats&quot;. I think the real problems have arisen at Wikipedia when  bureaucrats have adopted a &quot;bunker mentality&quot;, do not try to explain their actions until forced to do so, and call people who questions their actions &quot;troll&quot;. This kind of behavior has been rare, but it is very destructive to a sense of community, even if the controversial bureaucrat action was correct. --[[User:JWSchmidt|JWSchmidt]] 22:02, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

:::::I started this thread because I feel uncomfortable with the emerging view of what a bureaucrat is on Wikiversity to date. I'm still thinking about this thread... --[[User:HappyCamper|HappyCamper]] 22:37, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

::::::I don't understand the idea that bureaucrats can be mindless drones. I guess that it will be impossible for bureaucrats to explain all actions to everyone when the organization grows into a huge moloch like Wikipedia. A friend of mine is admin on Wikipedia and he says that nothing will change there in how the organization is ruled. Well, that is very easy to maintain. But what if change can be considered as good. There needs to be a political system that can be open to change. Being open to change means having to deal with serious resentment, in which consensus and open discussion will not be possible anymore.

::::::Before preceding, i would like to keep in mind the goal of Wikiversity and the organizations within it. How is this discussion going to relate to the establishment of schools and courses, advocating interlingual debates, establishing learning materials? The constitution of Wikiversity should be able to support the organization in its daily functioning. To cast an idea: A corporate system could be that decisions are taken by the schools and by groups who organize debates, thereby circumventing those who only take part in discussions at the top of the establishment as seems to be the practise at Wikipedia.--[[User:Daanschr|Daanschr]] 08:19, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

:::::::''JWSchmidt'': I agree that such a &quot;bunker mentality&quot; could be very destructive to this community. I would not like to have to make any decision which alienated a subset of this community. I furthermore think that hierarchical structures could undermine the whole process of seeking consensus, which is fundamental to our work. Any view of a bureaucrat's &quot;power&quot; ''must'' be embedded ''within'' this model, not somehow supplanting it.
:::::::''HappyCamper'': I'm worried. What emerging view of bureaucratship are you uncomfortable with? I really want you to feel free to express your thoughts openly. Does my above note address your fears at all?
:::::::''Daanschr'': I think change is fundamental to our entire modus operandi, even our raison d'etre (my second time using that phrase in two days!). I think it would be terrible to recreate a system that made participants feel they could make no lasting impact on the project - even if this belief was misguided. But, while I completely endorse the development of a whole system that would sustain this project, I'm a little confused by your idea here - what decisions would need to be taken at the school level that would require custodian or bureaucrat input? [[User:Cormaggio|Cormaggio]] &lt;sup&gt;&lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Cormaggio|talk]]&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 14:47, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

For instance how the policy of [[Wikiversity:Cite sources|citing]] and [[Wikiversity:Verifiability|verifying]] [[Wikiversity:Reliable sources|reliable sources]] can be implemented. But also how [[Learning to learn a wiki way]], [[Wikiversity:Scholarly ethics|Scholarly Ethics]] or my idea of trying to gain the respect of the academic world can be implemented. This can also be decided for at school level, so each school can determine for itself on how to use it or by not using it at all.

Happycamper, i quess the stewarts of the Wikimedia Foundation are still in charge here. When a bureaucrat behaves in such a way that it damages the community considerably, then the stewarts can interphere isn't it? It would be funny if that is the case. The whole Wiki community would serve like a medieval monastic order.--[[User:Daanschr|Daanschr]] 15:26, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

:The stewards typically do not intervene unless requested by the community - in fact, I think they are instructed not to ever jump in. ''Daanschr'', actually, you raise quite a good point, so maybe we should share some ideas on a different page regarding academics and such. I think I have a fairly good idea what your concerns are. Maybe after this bureaucrat thing is done we can talk more. I don't know if I can keep up with two different threads. ''Cormaggio'' - not to worry, I was happy to read your posts. --[[User:HappyCamper|HappyCamper]] 16:26, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

::I would be happy to start such a page.--[[User:Daanschr|Daanschr]] 10:14, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

:::Such a page would be excellent to have. What about [[Wikiversity:Academic standards]], [[Wikiversity:Methodology]], or [[Wikiversity:Scholarly practice]]? Alternatively (or, perhaps, in parallel), we could develop [[Wikiversity:Scholarly ethics]], [[Wikiversity:Academic freedom]], [[Wikiversity:Verifiability]], [[Wikiversity:Cite sources]], [[Wikiversity:Reliable sources]], [[Wikiversity:Wikiversity outreach]], or others which I may have temporarily forgotten.. [[User:Cormaggio|Cormaggio]] &lt;sup&gt;&lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Cormaggio|talk]]&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 16:26, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

::::Academic standards sounds good, or what about 'academic expertise'?--[[User:Daanschr|Daanschr]] 18:27, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

To give a little insight into why the model for RfA we have here was chosen: an experience I and others have made in other projects is that the process for attaining adminship can become exceedingly arduous and personal. More often than not it ends up consisting of an evaluation of a user's entire history of contributions rather than their fitness for adminship. This is partially due to the fact that at most other projects there's usually no concrete experience with the user exercising admin features prior to the RfA. So the community is forced to use other points of reference to evaluate the candidate.

At Wikiversity, we've created a process that's different from that. Candidates for custodianship are required to be mentored for four weeks, after which they are evaluated by their mentor. The point of this process is for a candidate to have the opportunity to exercise custodian tools and demonstrate the way in which they would conduct themselves as full custodians. If the mentor provides a favorable recommendation, the candidate can apply for full custodianship, subject to community discussion. The final decision in this matter lies with the bureaucrats who are expected to evaluate the mentorship period, the recommendation and community feedback. It's not so much a question of consensus but of informed decision-making considering the interests of Wikiversity as a collaborative project as the highest priority. For other issues, I would expect for bureaucrats to act in the same thoughtful and constructive manner. [[User:sebmol|sebmol]] [[User talk:sebmol|&lt;sup&gt;?&lt;/sup&gt;]] 16:49, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

:&quot;trying to gain the respect of the academic world&quot; &lt;-- I think many people outside of the wiki world are baffled by how wikis function. It is natural for people to assume that wiki &quot;support staff&quot; somehow have special control over the content of Wikimedia Foundation project wikis. There is actually a more subtle and  interesting relationship between the special tasks that can be performed only by &quot;[[Wikiversity:Support staff|Support staff]]&quot; and the &quot;real work&quot; that is done by all wiki participants to actually develop the project. The term &quot;custodian&quot; was selected as the Wikiversity term for &quot;sysop&quot; partly in an attempt to stress the idea that it is not a very exciting position to hold. Picture custodians who quietly sweep the floor when a school is closed at the end of the day. My hope is that if we can do a good job of engineering the Wikiversity rules for support staff then it will be possible for custodians and bureaucrats to be almost invisible to the bulk of the community. Most wikiversity participants should be able to get on with the &quot;real work&quot; of the wiki and all they need to know is how to do is call a custodian in case a toilet blocks up and some mopping is needed. While we can strive to make &quot;support staff&quot; invisible, every action taken by wiki &quot;support staff&quot; needs to be open to review; if there is ever a problem caused by &quot;support staff&quot; then the community needs to be able to correct it. At Wikipedia there are occasionally calls for some kind of formal oversight for &quot;support staff&quot; such as periodic performance reviews. The system that has developed to deal with &quot;support staff&quot; problems is more adversarial and crisis-oriented. If someone perceives a problem with Wikipedia &quot;support staff&quot; then in order to correct it seems like there often has to be a formal and legalistic case brought before the arbitration committee. One way that &quot;support staff&quot; can get in the &quot;dog house&quot; is by trying to use their special tools to take control of wiki content. The bottom line is, &quot;support staff&quot; can only indirectly influence &quot;respect of the academic world&quot; by keeping a clean house within Wikiversity (cleaning up vandalism, etc). It is really up to &quot;regular&quot; Wikiversity participants to gain the respect of the academic world. However, it may be useful for Wikiversity to create a new type of &quot;functionary&quot; that can specialize for &quot;professional&quot; contacts with the academic world. There are some ideas along this line [[Wikiversity:Review board#Ambassadorial function|here]]. --[[User:JWSchmidt|JWSchmidt]] 17:37, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

::If the scholarly ethics will be enforced by the support staff, then their roll will not be invisible. Do you mean with invisible that the support staff will only be concerned with fighting vandalism? The arbitration comittee has made decisions which are questionable. I wouldn't like to have such an institution on Wikiversity.--[[User:Daanschr|Daanschr]] 10:14, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

:::I think that, on scholarly ethics and all other principles of good practice here, while they are vital to developing a high quality resource, I don't think they are of immediate relevance to this discussion on what bureaucrats/support staff should do. Bureaucrats and custodians should not get involved ''in their capacities as support staff'' in the implementation of such policies - they should get involved in discussing such policies and applying them as completely equal community members. As far as I can see it, the only policies that would be of direct relevance to a bureaucrat's or custodian's position would be those around civility - and even then, it is still a ''community'' issue, to perhaps be implemented by a member of the &quot;support staff&quot;. What other types of policies could be enforceable by support staff? [[User:Cormaggio|Cormaggio]] &lt;sup&gt;&lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Cormaggio|talk]]&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 16:26, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

::::I am in favour of a democratic system at the moment, something like the Germans have. A system that ensures that change is possible and at the same time makes it possible that as much of people as possible are directly included in making decisions.--[[User:Daanschr|Daanschr]] 18:15, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

:::::Speaking generally, there are two types of actions taken by custodians and bureaucrats:
:::::1) actions that are best taken after a group of people have thought about them and discussed the matter
:::::2) actions that are so trivial that it would probably be a waste of time to hold a formal discussion before acting.
:::::Under such a system, when someone feels that they want to be more involved in the decisions that are made by custodians and bureaucrats it is possible to increase the amount of discussion that is required before a particular type of action is taken. Also, custodian and bureaucrat actions are reversible. Even after an action has been made people can go back, question, discuss and correct. &quot;a democratic system ..... something like the Germans have&quot; &lt;-- can you explain what you mean? --[[User:JWSchmidt|JWSchmidt]] 19:39, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

::::::With the German system i mean what has been written at the start of this page ''german wikipedia has 2; set rule: 2/3 approval in community discussion of sysop candidates''.
::::::You wrote above ''We don't want mindless drones as bureaucrats''. This sounds nice, but it is hard to determine who is mindless and who is not.
::::::You wrote above ''When bureaucrats feel forced into taking action in the absence of community consensus there should at least be consensus among bureaucrats and a clear explanation to the community of why the action is being taken. It makes sense to me that any bureaucrat action that is not supported by prior community consensus should be open to critical evaluation by the community.'' Here the definition of community puzzles me. How is it possible that if a community can't reach consensus, and the bureacrats make the decision, that the same community is able to revert the decision, which will be hard if there is no consensus. In essence it means that the bureaucrats decide.--[[User:Daanschr|Daanschr]] 20:52, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

::::::I misread the line on the Germans. It deals with choosing sysops.--[[User:Daanschr|Daanschr]] 21:00, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

:::::::My attribution to this discussion was not very strong, so i will leave it up to others. It is an exiting moment in Dutch politics at the moment. There is a possibility that there will be no cabinet. (sorry, completely unrelated)--[[User:Daanschr|Daanschr]] 22:32, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

:::::::&quot;it is hard to determine who is mindless&quot; &lt;-- At the English language Wikipedia custodians and bureaucrats are expected to judged consensus by checking to see if votes are based on reasonable discussion and votes from accounts that look like puppet accounts created just to stack the vote do not have to be counted. Just counting votes without determining that the votes are reasonable and fair is &quot;mindless&quot;; you could have a bot do it. Sometimes action by a custodian or bureaucrat can attract much attention, so much so that an issue that previously did not come to consensus among a smaller group can be decided by the consensus of a larger group. --[[User:JWSchmidt|JWSchmidt]] 23:07, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

== All Quiet on the Western Front... ==

 Wikiversity:
 For want of the bureaucrats -
 Measured, yet subtle.
 
 A bureaucracy:
 Watching; not silent nor still -
 But careful with grace.

--[[User:HappyCamper|HappyCamper]] 05:21, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

:If bureaucrats try to be invisible and only deal with issues of civility, then that would be good for me. (I have read that book: very impressive)--[[User:Daanschr|Daanschr]] 08:21, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

== New draft - ideas and such ==

Great to see things moving along! I have a few ideas which might be handy. I think it would be a good idea to aim for a document which we can expect to remain stable for say, a year or so. Wikiversity is still reasonably young, and I think planning ahead with a time horizon of around 12-16 months in mind is not too unreasonable. This might help us focus on having this page meet Wikiversity's current needs, while leaving the door open to flexibility as the editing environment changes.

I think it might be easier to modify this draft if we discuss each section starting from top to bottom, with less emphasis between how the sections interrelate. Once we have done this, we can look at the resulting document as a whole to see if there are any inconsistencies between what is written and what our philosophies for the bureaucrat role should be. Roughly speaking, I think the discussions we had 4-5 months ago approached this page in the other direction, so it might be fruitful to try the another way.

What is written so far seems reasonable. The concerns I have at the moment are primarily &quot;semantic&quot; - I think we need to clarify certain things. For example, in the first section, what does &quot;well-trusted&quot; really mean? How about the word &quot;consensus&quot;? Or &quot;civility&quot;? Let me focus on trust in this thread.

I think there are two distinct notions here we should document - the first relates to bureaucratship, say, as an &quot;administrative role&quot;, and the second relates to bureaucrat as a &quot;representative role&quot;. In the former, the ideal bureaucrat is probably someone who generally interprets policy in such a way that maximizes consistency and minimizes surprise. That is, they act in a way which can be reasonably anticipated by the community. In the latter, the bureaucrat is someone who the community feels is a positive influence on Wikiversity, likely someone not particularly polarizing, with a well rounded knowledge of the site. The bureaucrat is someone who would be a good ambassador for Wikiversity.

However, even this brief sketch seems problematic as it seems to open the door to a policy where the bureaucrat bit can be granted relatively liberally. This in itself is not problematic - it is the fact that it seems inconsistent with what I think the bureaucrat role is intended to be (a little more selective) which makes it so. What's the best way to proceed? Perhaps this sketch is really a non-issue, but I thought it might be a good idea just to write this down. We should probably aim for policy which balances these concerns nicely, so that its consequences are manageable by the community. Enough writing for now! I will try shorter tidbits next time. --[[User:HappyCamper|HappyCamper]] 22:23, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

:&quot;planning ahead with a time horizon of around 12-16 months in mind is not too unreasonable&quot; &lt;-- In your thinking, is it likely that this &quot;time horizon&quot; will include a real Wikiversity crisis in which the project might benefit from having a good set of bcrat guidelines in place, rather than the alternative of the community struggling through a crisis without the aid of good guidelines and then getting around to making useful policy only after the crisis is over? By &quot;good guidelines &quot; I mean that we would be able to learn from challenges that have previously been faced by other wiki projects.--[[User:JWSchmidt|JWSchmidt]] 23:38, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

::Learning from previous challenges on other projects - this sounds like a learning project in its own right. :-) I think it would be great to pursue such a project - but there's also an inevitability about us having to learn through this process ourselves in this (local) context. We will never be able to learn everything in advance - nor prepare for every inevitability - but we should endeavour to have as much of the process as clearly defined as possible, always leaving room for fresh and critical thinking, judgement, and reflexivity. Part of this is working through what terms like [[Wikiversity:Consensus|&quot;consensus&quot;]] mean - and these policies should be as clear as possible while also leaving flexibility for rethinking them in new light. For example, the notion of &quot;reasonability&quot; is fundamental to most legal systems, but what being &quot;reasonable&quot; is is a very complex notion. I don't think we need to recreate an entire legal system, but rather develop a model of consensus that will work for as long as it needs to. Wikiversity's development over a timeframe of 12-16 months sounds good as a thought experiment to start off with, however. :-) [[User:Cormaggio|Cormaggio]] &lt;sup&gt;&lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Cormaggio|talk]]&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 00:29, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

:::Well, 12-16 months is arbitrary. Ideally, it would be nice if we could come up with something that would be workable for all time, but that does not seem achievable. So, I just picked a number that was less than infinity...something which seems manageable (at least to me). Basically, a neat concept to suggest that we should not try and solve all the possible problems that might crop up. I didn't think of the phrase &quot;thought experiment&quot;, but actually, that's a very nice way of putting it :-) I didn't have a potential Wikiversity crisis in mind when I wrote my previous post. I'll have to think about it, but maybe I'll offer an idea that perhaps a &quot;crisis&quot; on a Wiki generally turns policy into a source of polarization.

:::Here's another metaphor which might be useful. Originally, I thought that policies here would develop sort of like growing plants from seeds. A little water and sunlight (ie. edits to the page) here and there...and obviously, watching the plant mature. But it seems this is developing more like a piece of artwork, say, chiseling a stone sculpture. Start with a rough draft, and work away at it to get something useful. 

:::I feel like I am going in circles, so maybe let's sketch out a bureaucrat I think would be healthy for Wikiversity, and how they might work. Obviously, this isn't the only sort of bureaucrat that would be useful for Wikiversity, but I'll describe one which is easiest for me to do right now. So, let's see...the bureaucrat will be just a normal editor on almost all pages on Wikiversity, with the exception of those directly related to creating custodians. They will not see custodianship as a too much of a political process. Policies will tend to be seen as descriptive, not prescriptive. Possibly a wikignome by nature. They will incline on promoting liberally - particular, for those users who seem to be dedicated to generating content on Wikiversity. The custodial bit is seen as a source of convenience for users, not as a source of autonomy. Possibly see Wikiversity more in an &quot;eventualist&quot; light instead of &quot;immediatist&quot; one (or whatever the neologism is). Promotions don't need to happen on fixed schedules. Track record of dedication to the project. OK, so much for now. How does this sketch look? Is this a &quot;good&quot; bureaucrat for Wikiversity? --[[User:HappyCamper|HappyCamper]] 04:03, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

== Ambassador ==

Is there a better designation than [[w:Bureacrat|Bureacrat]]? Can this be changed to something like [[w:Ambassador|Ambassador]] at least for Wikiversity? [[User:CQ|CQ]] 14:21, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

==How many bureaucrats does Wikiversity need?==
How long is a piece of string? Any answer to this will be too vague, I feel. [[User:Cormaggio|Cormaggio]] &lt;sup&gt;&lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Cormaggio|talk]]&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 16:12, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
;Simpler question
Does Wikiversity need more than two bureaucrats?

*Wikinews has 5 bcrats, including Jimbo
*Wikibooks has 6, also including Jimbo
*Wiktionary has 5 bcrats
*wikimedia Commons has 9
*Wikiquote has 1 bureaucrat
*Wikisource has 1 bureaucrat
*Wikispecies has 9 bureaucrats
*the wikimedia meta-wiki has 18 bureaucrats

*englishh wikipedia has 24: &quot;gray area&quot; in bureaucrat judging of consensus in community discussion of sysop candidates
*german wikipedia has 2; set rule: 2/3 approval in community discussion of sysop candidates

==Call for bureaucrats==
Currently, we only have one active bureaucrat (Jtneill) and SB Johnny has recently returned but only temporarily. The other bureaucrats are currently non-active or intermittent. It would be preferable to have at least two active bureaucrats for a range of reasons. Personally, I am coming up soon to a very busy part of the university year and then a summer break. Who would you like to see as a WV bureaucrat? -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 02:05, 12 August 2010 (UTC)
:My first choice is Cormaggio. My second choice is Mikeu. I wish they would return. [[User:Ottava Rima|Ottava Rima]] ([[User talk:Ottava Rima|talk]])  02:50, 12 August 2010 (UTC)
::Darklama? [[User:Geoff Plourde|Geoff Plourde]] 06:48, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

: Bureaucratship and custodianship should be not so much unlaid as unpaid. How to keep them unlaid while anyone is too busy elsewhere? A KISS is she is to ''kiss'' a surrogate, proxy, or agent at her own risk. The current disruption here may be mainly attributable to bureaucracy of practical vacancy, I suspect. --&amp;nbsp;[[User:KYPark|KYPark]] [[User talk:KYPark|[T]]] 11:31, 12 August 2010 (UTC) &lt;!-- As per the time sequence, this comment is moved ahead of mikeu's that jutted out later and higher than this, strangely to me. Nevertheless, self-evidently, mikeu is responding to Jtneill and Ottava as well as KYPark is.  -- KYPark [T] 01:18, 13 August 2010 (UTC) --&gt;

Let me know what I can do to lighten the load, James. I do have a number of content projects that have been on the back burner for some time that I would like to get back to, so I'll be around a bit more the next few weeks and hopefully much more active from next month on.  Thanks, Ottava. --[[User:Mu301|mikeu]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Mu301|talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 16:59, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

== Appointing curators ==

Who is appointing Curators? They are not listed here nor for Custodian policy. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 18:38, 9 May 2026 (UTC)

:Excellent point. I've added curators to the user roles/rights that can be provided by bureaucrats. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 04:32, 10 May 2026 (UTC)
::Thx. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 08:05, 10 May 2026 (UTC)

== Hierarchy ==

So does it mean, that one can become a bureaucrat without being an custodian? [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 18:42, 9 May 2026 (UTC)

:As this isn't specified, I think its possible to become a bureaucrat without being a custodian (e.g., maybe an experienced, trusted user who has these rights in another project). But I think a more common pathway would be a user who is an en.wv custodian becoming a bureaucrat. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 04:25, 10 May 2026 (UTC)
::OK. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 08:05, 10 May 2026 (UTC)</text>
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{| style=&quot;font-size:85%;&quot;
| [[Image:Wikiversity logo 2017.svg|16px]] '''Action required'''
* [[Template:Opentask|The open task template]]
* [[Wikiversity:Maintenance|Maintenance]]
* [[Wikiversity:Requests for Deletion|Requests for deletion]]
* [[:Category:Candidates for speedy deletion|Requests for speedy deletion]]
* [[:Category:Requests for unblock|Requests for unblock]]
* [[:Category:Possible copyright violations|Copyright violations]]
* [[:Category:Proposed deletions|Proposed deletions]]
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* [[Wikiversity:Notices for custodians|Notices for custodians]]
&lt;!--* [[:Category:Things you can do|Things you can do]]--&gt;
&lt;!--* [[:Category:Items to be merged|Items to be merged]]--&gt;
&lt;!--* [[:Category:Wikiversity maintenance|More maintenance]]--&gt;
&lt;hr&gt;
[[Image:Wikiversity logo 2017.svg|16px]] '''Templates'''
* [[Introduction to templates]]
* [[Help:Template|Guide to templates]]
* [[Wikiversity:Welcome templates|Welcome templates]]
* [[:Category:Page flag templates|Page flag templates]]
* [[:Category:Navigational templates|Navigation templates]]
* [[:Category:Administrative templates|Admin templates]]
* [[Wikiversity:Templates|Template task force]]
&lt;hr&gt;
[[Image:Wikiversity logo 2017.svg|16px]] '''Development'''
* [[Portal:Developing Wikiversity|Developing Wikiversity]]
* [[Wikiversity:Banners and buttons|Wikiversity logos]]
* [[Wikiversity:Service community|Service community]]
* [[Wikiversity:Metadata|Metadata]]
* [[MediaWiki Project]]
* [[MediaWiki/Introduction|MediaWiki]]
* [[Wikiversity:Technical needs|Technical needs]]
&lt;hr&gt;
[[Image:Wikiversity logo 2017.svg|16px]] '''Reference'''
* [[Wikiversity:Policies|Policies]]
* [[Wikiversity:Support staff|Custodians]]
* [[Wikiversity:Custodianship|Custodianship]] (policy)
* [[How to be a Wikimedia sysop]]
* [[Wikiversity:Wikiversity project proposal|Mission]]
* [[Managing vandalism]]
* [[m:MediaWiki|MediaWiki Handbook]]
* [[mw:Help:Extension:ParserFunctions|Parser functions]]
* [[Special:Log|Logs]]
* [[Wikiversity:Bots|Bots]]
* [[Wikiversity:Consensus|Consensus]]
* [[Wikiversity:Statistics|Statistics]]
&lt;hr&gt;
[[Image:Wikiversity logo 2017.svg|16px]] '''Events and news'''
* [[Wikiversity:Announcements|Announcements]]
* [[Wikimania]]
&lt;!--&lt;hr&gt;--&gt;
&lt;p align=center style=&quot;font-size:80%&quot;&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
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[[Category:Help]]
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[[Category:Wikiversity administration]]
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''A loose, personal (i.e., somewhat idiosynchratic) organisation of Wikiversity-related how-tos and links.''
==To sort==
{|style=&quot;background:transparent;&quot;
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* [http://tools.wikimedia.de/~magnus/commonshelper.php commonshelper]
* [[User:Jtneill/Wikification|Wikification]]
* [[w:Help:Interwiki_linking#Project_titles_and_shortcuts|Interwiki linking]]
* [[Wikiversity:Activity bars]]
* [[Wikiversity:Percent complete]]
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* [[Wikiversity:Interactive whiteboard]]
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* [[Wikiversity:Namespaces]]
* [[Wikiversity:Naming conventions]]
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* [[Wikiversity:Participants]]
* [[Wikiversity:Peer review]]
* [[Wikiversity:Review board]]
* [[Wikiversity:Searching]]
* [[How to be a Wikimedia sysop]]
|}

==Anchor==
* [[Template:Anchor]], e.g., [[#test]] will go to &lt;code&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;{{anchor|test}}&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/code&gt; or &lt;code&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;{{anchor|anchor=test}}&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/code&gt; (should go to end of page)

==Archiving==
* Example of autoarchiving: [[User talk:Terra]]

==Blogging==
* [[Wikiversity Blog howto]]

==Boxes==
[[User:Jtneill/Sandbox/Tables and boxes]]

The simplest of boxes

{| class=&quot;messagebox&quot;
|-
| ABC
XYZ
|}

&lt;blockquote style=&quot;padding-left:1.0em; padding-right:1.0em; background-color:#eaf8f4;&quot;&gt;
Its good that it works in practice, because it certainly doesn’t work in theory[https://blogs.ch.cam.ac.uk/pmr/2007/10/14/the-thing-about-wikipedia-is-that-it-only-works-in-practice-in-theory-it-can-never-work/] 
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

==Categories==
It is possible to change the order in which a page’s categories are displayed. By default, categories are displayed in the order they appear in the wikitext. Wikis with a consensus to do so can [[m:Special:MyLanguage/Requesting wiki configuration changes|request]] a configuration change to display them in alphabetical order. [https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T373480]

Using titleparts
&lt;nowiki&gt;[[Category:{{#titleparts:{{PAGENAME}}|1}}]]&lt;/nowiki&gt;

==[[/Centering/]]==
{{User:Jtneill/Wikiversity/Centering}}

==Chat==
* [[irc:wikiversity-en|#wikiversity-en]]

==Citations and referencing==
* [[w:Help:Citation tools|Citation tools]]
* [[:Category:Citation templates]]
* [[mw:Help:Cite]]
* [[Template:Citation]]
* [[WV:REF]]
* Example: Outward Bound Process Model&lt;ref&gt;Walsh, V., &amp; Golins, G. L. (1976). ''[http://wilderdom.com/theory/OutwardBoundProcessModel.html The exploration of the Outward Bound process]''.  Denver, CO: Colorado Outward Bound School.&lt;/ref&gt;

;References
{{reflist|1}}

==Collapse boxes==
{{collapse top|Mary had a little lamb}}
Mary had a little lamb,
Little lamb, little lamb,
Mary had a little lamb,
Its fleece was white as snow

And everywhere that Mary went,
Mary went, Mary went,
Everywhere that Mary went
The lamb was sure to go

It followed her to school one day
School one day, school one day
It followed her to school one day
Which was against the rules.

It made the children laugh and play,
Laugh and play, laugh and play,
It made the children laugh and play
To see a lamb at school

And so the teacher turned it out,
Turned it out, turned it out,
And so the teacher turned it out,
But still it lingered near

And waited patiently about,
Patiently about, patiently about,
And waited patiently about
Till Mary did appear

&quot;Why does the lamb love Mary so?&quot;
Love Mary so? Love Mary so?
&quot;Why does the lamb love Mary so?&quot;
The eager children cry

&quot;Why, Mary loves the lamb, you know.&quot;
Loves the lamb, you know, loves the lamb, you know
&quot;Why, Mary loves the lamb, you know.&quot;
The teacher did reply
{{collapse bottom}}

==Colour==
* [[Wikiversity web page colors|Color tables]] | [[Wikiversity:Color names|Color names]]
* e.g., Font: {{font|color=green|Green}}, Background: &lt;span style=&quot;background:hotpink; color:white;&quot;&gt;Pink&lt;/span&gt;

==Columns==
===Column breaks===
{|
|-
| Works on all browsers (col-begin/break/end):
{{col-begin}}
{{col-break}}
* Col1
{{col-break}}
* Col2
{{col-break}}
* Col3
{{col-end}}

Works on all browsers (col/break/colend):
{{col}}
{{break}}
* Col1
{{break}}
* Col2
{{break}}
* Col3
{{col/end}}
|}

===Moz-column===
Easier to use, but doesn't work on all browsers:
&lt;div style=&quot;column-count:3;-moz-column-count:3;-webkit-column-count:3&quot;&gt;
* Ant
* Bee
* Buzzard
* Cat
* Dog
* Egret
* Elephant
* Tiger
* Whale
* Worm
&lt;/div&gt;

==Conversions==
===HTML===
* [[w:Wikipedia:Tools/Editing_tools#From_HTML]]
* [http://www.ebruni.it/en/software/os/i_love_wiki/index.mpl i love wiki]
* {{tick}} [http://diberri.dyndns.org/wikipedia/html2wiki/index.html HTML::WikiConverter]
* {{tick}} [http://openfacts2.berlios.de/html2wiki/index.php HTML::WikiConverter]] Add URL

==CSS==
* [[MediaWiki:Common.css]]

==Custodianship==
* [[Wikiversity:Custodianship]]
** [[Wikiversity:Candidates for Custodianship]]
** [[Wikiversity:Notices for custodians]]
** [[Wikiversity:Request custodian action]]
** [[:Category:Wikiversity custodians]]

==Edit page==
Create an internal link to the edit source page using:
[[Special:EditPage/{{FULLPAGENAME}}|Edit source]]

&lt;nowiki&gt;
{{edit page}}
&lt;/nowiki&gt;

gives:
{{edit page}}

&lt;nowiki&gt;
{{edit page box}}
&lt;/nowiki&gt;

gives:
{{edit page box}}

==Extensions==
* [[Special:Version#Extensions]]
* [[/CategoryTree|CategoryTree]]
* [http://www.sandboxserver.org/wiki/index.php?title=Testing_Mediawiki_extensions Sandbox server - testing extensions]
* [[User:Jtneill/WYSIWIG|WYSIWIG]]

==Font==
&lt;p&gt;{{font|face=&quot;courier&quot;|size=medium|courier size 3}}&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;{{font|face=&quot;verdana&quot;|size=large|verdana size 4}}&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;{{font|face=&quot;arial&quot;|size=x-large|arial size 5}}&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;{{font|face=&quot;times new roman&quot;|size=xx-large|times new roman size 6}}&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;b&gt;{{font|face=&quot;verdana&quot;|size=xx-large|verdana bold size 6}}&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;{{font|face=&quot;lucida calligraphy&quot;|size=xx-large|lucida calligraphy size 7}}&lt;/p&gt;

==Formatting==
===Justification===
&lt;div style=&quot;text-align: justify&quot;&gt; This text is right justified (but it doesn't look like unless the paragraph is long enough to go over one line on the page, so this is intentionally a particularly and unnecessarily long sentence in order to demonstrate right justification using &lt;nowiki&gt;&lt;div style=&quot;text-align: justify&quot;&gt;...&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/nowiki&gt;).&lt;/div&gt;
==Line height==
{{center top}}&lt;p style=&quot;line-height: 36px;&quot;&gt;
&lt;big&gt;&lt;big&gt;&lt;big&gt;&lt;big&gt;This uses a&lt;br&gt;line height of 36px&lt;/big&gt;&lt;/big&gt;&lt;/big&gt;&lt;/big&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;pre&gt;&lt;p style=&quot;line-height: 36px;&quot;&gt;...&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/pre&gt;
{{center bottom}}
===Mouse-over===
* [[Help:Mouse-over]]
* [[Template:H:title]]

==Getting started==
* [[Wikiversity:Guided tour|Guided tour]]
* [[Wikiversity:Introduction|Introduction]] (Wikiversity)
* [[/Introduction|Introduction]] (Jtneill)
* [[/Welcome|Welcome]] (Jtneill)
* [[Introduction to Wiki]] - [[Wiki 101]]
* [[How to use wiki technology as a free learner]]
* [[:Image:Short.ogg|Wikiversity - short intro]] (10 sec. video)
* [[:Image:Editing_tutorial-large.ogg|Wikiversity editing tutorial]] (2 min video)
* [[Wikiversity:Community Portal]]
* [[Wikiversity:Content development]]
* [[Help:Edit summary]]
* [[Making links]]

==Good design==
* [[User:Jtneill/Good design]]

==Icons==
* [[Help:Icons]]
* [[User:McCormack/icons]]

==Images==
===[[Template:Gallery|Gallery]]===
{{Gallery
|title=Gallery of images
|footer=Uses this [[Template:Gallery|template]]
|width=150
|lines=2
||Comment
|File:Wikiversity-logo-Snorky.svg|[[Help:Contents/Links|Links]] can be put in captions.
|File:Wikiversity-logo-Snorky.svg|Full [[MediaWiki]]&lt;br /&gt;[[syntax]] may be used…
|File:Wikiversity-logo-Snorky.svg|
}}

&lt;!-- Fixed image in bottom right which is linked --&gt;
&lt;div id=&quot;template-navbar&quot; style=&quot;position: fixed; left:1; right:0; bottom:0; padding:0; font-size:122%;&quot;&gt;[[Image:Happy.png|right|50px|link=en:Happiness|Happiness]]&lt;/div&gt;

===ImageMap===
* [[mw:Extension:ImageMap|Extension ImageMap]] e.g.,
{{center top}}
&lt;imagemap&gt;File:Treasurchest.svg|center|80px
default [[Special:Random/|Random Wikiversity mainspace page]]
desc none&lt;/imagemap&gt;Click the treasure box to go to a random [[Wikiversity]] page{{center bottom}}

;Explanation

The ImageMap extension allows, among other things, an image to link directly to a page e.g., as an internal link:
&lt;imagemap&gt;
File:Treasurchest.svg|center|150px|alt=Alt text
default [[Motivation and emotion/Book/2015|Motivation and emotion Book - 2015]]
&lt;/imagemap&gt;

The syntax is:
&lt;pre style=&quot;overflow:auto&quot;&gt;
&lt;imagemap&gt;
File:Treasurchest.svg|center|150px|alt=Alt text
default [[Motivation and emotion/Book/2015|Motivation and emotion Book - 2015]]
&lt;/imagemap&gt;
&lt;/pre&gt;

or as an external link:
&lt;imagemap&gt;
File:Treasurchest.svg|center|150px|alt=Alt text
default [https://www.psychologytoday.com/basics/motivation Motivation (Psychology Today)]
&lt;/imagemap&gt;

The syntax is:
&lt;pre style=&quot;overflow:auto&quot;&gt;
&lt;imagemap&gt;
File:Treasurchest.svg|center|150px|alt=Alt text
default [https://www.psychologytoday.com/basics/motivation Motivation (Psychology Today)]
&lt;/imagemap&gt;
&lt;/pre&gt;

==Integrations==
I'm interested to explore possible connections between WV and:
* [http://archive.org Archive.org]
* [[w:Citizendium|Citizendium]]
* [[w:Google Groups]]
* [[Moodle]]
* [[Open University]]
* [http://openlearn.open.ac.uk/course/view.php?name=Cohere Cohere]
* [[WikiMedia Sister Projects]], particularly:
** [[Wikibooks]]
** [[Wikipedia]]
** [[Simple Wikipedia]]

==Licensing==
* My teaching materials are licensed under [[Wikiversity:License tags#Free licenses|creative commons attribution 2.5]] and hosted either on http://wilderdom.com or http://ucspace.canberra.edu.au. I am thinking I should be dual licensing, but am still coming to grips with trying to understand the licensing similarities, differences, and issues. 
* I plan to gradually transfer most of my teaching materials to the various [[w:WikiMedia Foundation|WikiMedia Foundation]] wiki projects, particularly wikiversity. [[m:Polls|Let's just hope Jimbo doesn't put adds on these sites]], otherwise I will be transferring the materials somewhere else (again).
* [http://beta.wikiversity.org/wiki/Wikiversity:IRC_meeting:New_licence_for_Wikiversity_Beta New_licence_for_Wikiversity_Beta]
* {{tl|db-copyvio}}
* {{tl|hangon}}
* [[:Category:Astronomy Images]]

==Links==
* Plain links: e.g., &lt;span class=&quot;plainlinks&quot;&gt;[http://archive.org http://archive.org]&lt;/span&gt;: &lt;br&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;plainlinks&quot;&gt; ... &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/nowiki&gt;
* [[mw:Manual:Opening external links in a new window]]

==Long page warning==
* [[MediaWiki:Longpagewarning]]

==[[Main page]]==
* [[:Category:Main page templates]]
* [[Main Page/Layout 0.5]]
* &lt;span class=&quot;plainlinks&quot;&gt;[http://en.wikiversity.org/w/index.php?title=Wikiversity:Main_Page&amp;oldid=209253 Main page]&lt;/span&gt; (old)

==Map==
&lt;mapframe latitude=&quot;-28.420391&quot; longitude=&quot;136.757813&quot; zoom=&quot;2&quot; width=&quot;200&quot; height=&quot;109&quot; align=&quot;right&quot;&gt;{
  &quot;type&quot;: &quot;FeatureCollection&quot;,
  &quot;features&quot;: [
    {
      &quot;type&quot;: &quot;Feature&quot;,
      &quot;properties&quot;: {},
      &quot;geometry&quot;: {
        &quot;type&quot;: &quot;Point&quot;,
        &quot;coordinates&quot;: [
          149.12419,
          -35.308275
        ]
      }
    }
  ]
}&lt;/mapframe&gt; 
==Namespaces==
* [[Special:NamespaceInfo]]

==Navigation==
{{nav|User:Jtneill}}
* [[Template:nav]]

==Notes==
Small e.g.,
{{attention}} &lt;small&gt;For calendar due dates, see unit outline.&lt;/small&gt;

Notice templates

{{Notice|{{tl|Notice}}}}
{{Note|{{tl|Note}}}}

==Notifications==
* [[Help:Notifications]]

==[[Project:Participants|Participants]]==
===Custodians===
{{user|Adambro}}&lt;br&gt;
{{user|CQ}}&lt;br&gt;
{{user|Cormaggio}}&lt;br&gt;
{{user|Draicone}}&lt;br&gt;
{{user|Erkan Yilmaz}}&lt;br&gt;
{{user|Gbaor}}&lt;br&gt;
{{user|Leighblackall}}&lt;br&gt;
{{user|McCormack}}&lt;br&gt;
{{user|Mike.lifeguard}}&lt;br&gt;
{{user|Mu301}}&lt;br&gt;
{{user|SB_Johnny}}

===Users===
*{{Participant|CQ}} - see Person of the Hour script

*{{Participant|Donek}}
*{{Participant|Dan Polansky}}

==Pedagogy==
* [[Learning by doing]]
* [[Wikiversity:Project incubator]]

==Policy==
* [[w:Wikipedia:Contributing_FAQ#Is_there_a_minimum_age_requirement_to_contribute_or_register.3F|Is there a minimum age requirement?]]
{{Official policies}}
{{Proposed policies}}

==Project boxes==
* [[Help:Resource attribution]]

==Purge==
To purge the cache for a given page, append this to the URL:
?action=purge

[[mw:Manual:Purge]]

==Quotes==
* [[Template:Quote]]
*

==[[Quizzes]]==
* [[Help:Quiz-Simple]]
* [http://www.qedoc.org/en/index.php?title=User:Jtneill My Qedoc user page]
** [http://eduforge.org/forum/forum.php?forum_id=1138 Qedoc now exports quizzes to Wikiversity]

==Referencing==
* [[meta:WMDE Technical Wishes/Sub-referencing]]

==Sandbox==
* http://www.sandboxserver.org/
* [[Wikiversity:Sandbox Server]]
* [[Topic:Sandbox Server 0.5]]
* [http://scratchpad.wikia.com/wiki/Scratchpad_Wiki_Labs Scratchpad]
* [[../Sandbox]]

==Searching==
* [[Help:Google]]
* [[Wikiversity:Colloquium/archives/April 2008#Google search|Google search]] - &lt;nowiki&gt;[[google:wikiversity]]&lt;/nowiki&gt; [[google:wikiversity]]
* Use a + instead of a space

==Search multiple categories==
;Dual category search including one category with subcategories
Search for chapters which [[Template:Clarification templates|need clarification]]:
&lt;inputbox&gt;	
type=search
width=33
default=incategory:&quot;Resources needing clarification&quot;
namespaces=Main**
prefix=Motivation and emotion/Book
searchbuttonlabel=Search book chapters
bgcolor=transparent
break=no
&lt;/inputbox&gt;

==Sitenotice==
* [[MediaWiki:Sitenotice]]
* [[MediaWiki:Sitenotice id]]

==Size==

===Big/small===
* Use &lt;code&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;&lt;big&gt;...&lt;/big&gt; - could be also &lt;big&gt;&lt;big&gt;...&lt;/big&gt;&lt;/big&gt; etc. and also &lt;small&gt;...&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/code&gt;

===CSS===
&lt;div style=&quot;font-size: 200%&quot;&gt;200% text&lt;/div&gt;&lt;code&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;&lt;div style=&quot;font-size: 200%&quot;&gt;200% text&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/code&gt;
&lt;div style=&quot;font-size: 150%&quot;&gt;150% text&lt;/div&gt;&lt;code&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;&lt;div style=&quot;font-size: 150%&quot;&gt;150% text&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/code&gt;

==Special==
* [[Special:SpecialPages]]
* Abuse
** [[Special:AbuseFilter]]
** [[Special:AbuseLog]]
* [[Special:Allpages]]
* [https://auth.wikimedia.org/enwikiversity/wiki/Special:CreateAccount Create account]
* [[Special:ListGroupRights]]
* [[Random]] - [[Special:Random]] - [[Wikiversity:Random]]
* [[Special:Version#Installed extensions]]

==Strategy==
* [[Wikiversity:Publicity]]
* [[Wikiversity:Vision]]
* [[Wikiversity:Vision 2009]]

==Statistics==
* [[Wikiversity:Statistics]]
* [[Google Search and Wikiversity]]
* [http://wikistics.falsikon.de/latest/wikiversity/en/ Monthly page hits for wikiversity.en]
* [http://gtools.org/tool/wikipedia-edit-counter/?str=jtneill&amp;project=en.wikiversity Jtneill edit count]
* https://xtools.wmcloud.org/pageinfo/en.wikiversity.org/

==Sub-pages==
* [[Special:Prefixindex/User:Jtneill]]
* Transclude:
** &lt;code&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;{{Special:Prefixindex/User:Jtneill}}&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/code&gt;
** &lt;code&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;{{Special:Prefixindex/{{NAMESPACE}}:{{PAGENAME}}}}&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/code&gt;

==Stubs==
* [[:Category:Stub templates]]

==Structure==
* [[Wikiversity:Browse/Concept]]

==Symbols==
🟨🟡⭐💛🟥⭕️❌🟦🔵🟩🟢✅
* [[User:VeronicaJeanAnderson]]

==System messages==
* [[Special:AllMessages]]
* [[#Sitenotice|Site notice]]

==Style==
* [[MoS]]
* [[MediaWiki:Common.css]]

==Tables==
* [[Help:Table]]
* [[User:Jtneill/Sandbox/Tables and boxes]]

==Tagging/notification==
* &lt;nowiki&gt;@[[User:UserName|UserName]]&lt;/nowiki&gt;
* &lt;nowiki&gt;{{ping|UserName}}&lt;/nowiki&gt;

==Templates==
===Page development===
* {{tl|welcome and expand}} - {{tl|we}}
* {{tl|main welcome}}
* {{tl|search}}
* {{tl|draft}}
* {{tl|underconstruction}}
* {{tl|Learning project boilerplate}}
* {{tl|info}}
* {{tl|note}}
* {{tl|notice}}
* {{tl|Nutshell}}
* &lt;nowiki&gt;{{notice|{{findsources}}}}&lt;/nowiki&gt;

===Page navigation===
* [[Template:EasyNavBar]]
* [[Template:Recovery psychology]] (example)
* [[Workshop for Australian education policy]] (example)

===Sister projects===
* [[Template:Sisterprojectsearch]]
* [[Template:Wikibooks]]
* [[Template:Wikipedia]]
* [[Template:Wikiversity]]

===User talk===
* {{tl|Welcomeip}}
* {{tl|Welcome}}
* {{tl|Talk header}}
* [[:Category:User warning templates]]

===Administrative===
* [[Template:Category redirect]]
* [[Template:Warning]]

==Theory==
* [[Learning by engagement]]
* [[User:JWSchmidt/Wiki Scholar]]

==Thoughts==
* [[Red link]]s are doorways to the infinite library ([[w:The Library of Babel|Library of Babel]])

==Tooltips==
{{Tooltip|Tooltips allow additional text to be displayed when cursor hovers over|Pretty cool, eh?}}

==User==
* [[w:Special:GlobalRenameRequest]]
* [[Special:UserGroupRights]]
* [[Special:UserRights]]

==Usability==
* [[Wikiversity:Usability]]
* http://usability.wikimedia.org - [http://usability.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Jtneill Jtneill]

==Video==
* .ogg files can be uploaded and embedded
* See [[/Video]] for examples

==wikEd==
* [[w:User_talk:Cacycle/wikEd]]

==Wiki2Reveal==
* [[Wiki2Reveal]] (slides on the fly from MediaWiki page)

==x Test anchor==
&lt;!-- Test anchor - don't delete! --&gt;
{{anchor|test}}

==See also==
* [[User:Jade Knight/Tools]]</text>
      <sha1>i3yk776dbiyw051t2i82mmb7w0p5zy2</sha1>
    </revision>
  </page>
  <page>
    <title>Wikiversity:Request custodian action</title>
    <ns>4</ns>
    <id>75745</id>
    <revision>
      <id>2808151</id>
      <parentid>2808024</parentid>
      <timestamp>2026-05-10T08:24:14Z</timestamp>
      <contributor>
        <username>Juandev</username>
        <id>2651</id>
      </contributor>
      <comment>/* Interface administrator flag request */ new section</comment>
      <origin>2808151</origin>
      <model>wikitext</model>
      <format>text/x-wiki</format>
      <text bytes="40804" sha1="0yzzlxktffytvbzbpi6w685l1uj47c8" xml:space="preserve">{{/Header}}
== Dan Polansky ==

I would like to ask you to assess the behavior of Dan Polansky, who in my opinion continues to violate [[Wikiversity:Etiquette|Etiquette]], calls users who disagree with him trolls, [https://en.wikiversity.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Harold_Foppele&amp;oldid=2760143#Your_qualification questions their expertise], tests them, etc. This is most evident in [[Wikiversity:Community Review/Dan Polansky]], where he has already indicated that two discussion opponents are trolls. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 08:05, 18 November 2025 (UTC)
: The coddling of overt disruptor Harold Foppele (substantiation is in RCA above) and proven provocateur and disruptor Juandev (substantiation in CR above) must stop. The English Wikiversity must start to properly curate its content and discipline disruptive editors. --[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] ([[User talk:Dan Polansky|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dan Polansky|contribs]]) 08:10, 18 November 2025 (UTC)
:[[Wikiversity:Community Review/Dan Polansky]] is underway; outcome pending. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 12:03, 27 November 2025 (UTC)
::It has been closed with consensus to ban him indefinitely from this project, I believe there is nothing else to do here. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 22:06, 11 March 2026 (UTC)

== Sidewide count.js ==

i would like something like: [[Template:User contrib count/count.js]]. i created [[Template:User contrib count]] and a user/common.js. {{User contrib count}}.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt; so a &quot;count.js&quot; would complete it. See [[User:Harold Foppele/common.js]].
If an Administrator could help please. Cheers [[User:Harold Foppele|Harold Foppele]] ([[User talk:Harold Foppele|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Harold Foppele|contribs]]) 19:22, 18 January 2026 (UTC)

== need to add my profile ==

im trying to add new profile content  [[User:PAGURUMURTHY|PAGURUMURTHY]] ([[User talk:PAGURUMURTHY|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PAGURUMURTHY|contribs]]) 18:03, 4 February 2026 (UTC)

:You can edit it now. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 18:05, 4 February 2026 (UTC)
::where can create a new one [[User:PAGURUMURTHY|PAGURUMURTHY]] ([[User talk:PAGURUMURTHY|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PAGURUMURTHY|contribs]]) 18:51, 4 February 2026 (UTC)
:::i have created and its in sandbox. i would like to know when it will be approved  [[User:PAGURUMURTHY|PAGURUMURTHY]] ([[User talk:PAGURUMURTHY|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PAGURUMURTHY|contribs]]) 19:38, 4 February 2026 (UTC)
::::Please don’t create [[wv:spam|spam]] pages as it will be deleted. Please also read [[WV:Scope]] [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 04:01, 5 February 2026 (UTC)

== Im trying to add new profile while add content its shows not alowed ==

This action has been automatically identified as potentially harmful, and therefore disallowed. If you believe your action was constructive, please [[Wikiversity:Request custodian action|inform an administrator]] of what you were trying to do. A brief description of the abuse rule which your action matched is: New User Exceeded New Page Limit

This action has been automatically identified as potentially harmful, and therefore disallowed. If you believe your action was constructive, please [[Wikiversity:Request custodian action|inform an administrator]] of what you were trying to do. A brief description of the abuse rule which your action matched is: New User Created Page with External Link [[User:PAGURUMURTHY|PAGURUMURTHY]] ([[User talk:PAGURUMURTHY|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PAGURUMURTHY|contribs]]) 18:51, 4 February 2026 (UTC)

== New User: cannot create talk page ==

Hi, I am a new user of Wikiversity and I wanted to create a talk page for the article [[ChatGPT's Essay on Kohlberg's Theory: AI's Use in Academic Writing]]. As a new user, I was barred from performing this action. The text that I wanted to add to the talk page is:

&lt;blockquote&gt;
I have doubts as to to the reliability of this essay. Take for rexample the sentence:

&lt;blockquote&gt;
Due to its efficiency, AI has saved 380,000-403,000 lives per year in European healthcare as reported in a recent Deloitte and MedTech Europe report&lt;ref&gt;Dantas, C., Mackiewicz, K., Tageo, V., Jacucci, G., Guardado, D., Ortet, S., Varlamis, I., Maniadakis, M., De Lera, E., Quintas, J., Kocsis, O., &amp; Vassiliou, C. (2021). Benefits and hurdles of AI in the workplace – what comes next? ''International Journal of Artificial Intelligence and Expert Systems, 10'', 9-17. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/351993615_Benefits_and_Hurdles_of_AI_In_The_Workplace_-What_Comes_Next&lt;/ref&gt;.
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Reading the reference (freely available on ResearchGate), one notes:

# that the reference is from 2021 (predating the widespread use of LLMs such as ChatGPT and the associated 'AI' boom), and
# that the reference factually contradicts this essay.

Quoting from the reference:

&lt;blockquote&gt;
There are enormous benefits of applying AI-based solutions to monitor workers’ health and prevent accidents or, currently, COVID-19 infections, and those benefits are reported with enormous potential. According to the recent Deloitte and MedTech Europe report [11], implementing AI in European healthcare systems could save up 380,000 to 403,000 lives annually or €170.9 to 212.4 billion per year.
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Not that the reference says ''could save'', not ''saves'' as in the essay.

This calls into question the reliability of the essay.

&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Could an administrator make this addition for me? Thank you! 
{{reflist}}
[[User:Æolus|Æolus]] ([[User talk:Æolus|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Æolus|contribs]]) 06:53, 5 February 2026 (UTC)

:@[[User:Æolus|Æolus]] I have added it for you, you can change the header and sign it now. [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 08:05, 5 February 2026 (UTC)
::Thank you! [[User:Æolus|Æolus]] ([[User talk:Æolus|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Æolus|contribs]]) 12:43, 5 February 2026 (UTC)

== Disallowed to add a page on a course ==

I'm trying to populate a newly created course on Wikiversity, but it blocks me from creating more pages with &quot;New User Exceeded New Page Limit&quot;. Could this be lifted please? [[User:Berkeleywho|Berkeleywho]] ([[User talk:Berkeleywho|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Berkeleywho|contribs]]) 13:21, 15 February 2026 (UTC)

:Sorry! Never mind. I was trying to create a new article instead of a new page. All good now. [[User:Berkeleywho|Berkeleywho]] ([[User talk:Berkeleywho|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Berkeleywho|contribs]]) 14:03, 15 February 2026 (UTC)

== Harold Foppele adding LLM-generated nonsense and personal fiction ==

I became aware of [[User:Harold Foppele]]'s editing after I deleted some of his uploads on Commons. He appears to be adding a large amount of text and images that are some combination of personal fiction and LLM-generated nonsense. This includes:
*[[Quantum Ultra fast lasers#Future thought experiment|Personal speculative fiction]] in an otherwise &quot;nonfiction&quot; article
*Uploading nonsense LLM-created [[:File:Rontosecond pulse laser (Schematic).jpg|diagrams]] and [[:File:Rontosecond pulse laser (Futuristic).jpg|renders]] for nonexistent lab equipment, with fake source (on Commons, he indicated these files as having been created by him using an LLM)
*Uploading nonsense LLM-created images of equations with obvious artifacts. These images, such as [[:File:Redfield equation (non-Markovian).png]] and [[:File:Lindblad equation (Markovian).png]], don't even match the text he puts them with.
Much of his writing is also of extremely poor quality, to the point where it's not clear whether it's written by him or an LLM. I'm not an active editor on this project, so I'm not as familiar with the standards here, but I believe this is worth custodian attention. [[User:Pi.1415926535|Pi.1415926535]] ([[User talk:Pi.1415926535|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Pi.1415926535|contribs]]) 03:06, 23 February 2026 (UTC)

:Fake source ''and'' contradictory copyright info, claiming both public domain and CC license. Moreover, if they are indeed nearly-direct LLM output, depending on jurisdiction they may not even be eligible for copyright.
:I've put speedy deletion marks for the equations, because they're obviously not coherent mathematical equations (the parentheses don't match, the symbols merge into each other the way text in image models often do, etc) [[User:Sesquilinear|Sesquilinear]] ([[User talk:Sesquilinear|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Sesquilinear|contribs]]) 21:50, 7 March 2026 (UTC)

== Repeated removal of RFD notices by Harold Foppele ==

{{User|Harold Foppele }}

This editor is appearing in multiple noticeboards for behaviour which is contentious. Ther latest adventure is the repeated removal of tye RFD notice at [[Quantum/Henry C. Kapteyn]]. You will see from their contributions record the number of times. I have warned Tham on their user tag page that this is tantaomunt to volunteering to be blocked here. They have a track record of achieving blocks on enWiki and Commons already.

They have all the appearance of shooting not to understand when given direct information about their behaviour, whichever project they are editing, and are fast becoming a time sink. Their behaviour across multiple WMF sites may well lead to a Global Lock, but I do not believe they have quite reached the threshold for that.

I believe that what is required is a preventative block to seek to ensure thatchy understand the seriousness of their behaviour, and the need to be collegial. 🇵🇸&amp;zwj;🇺🇦&amp;nbsp;[[User:Timtrent|Timtrent]]&amp;nbsp;🇺🇦&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Timtrent|talk to me]]&amp;nbsp;🇺🇦&amp;zwj;🇵🇸 23:03, 4 March 2026 (UTC)
: {{Done}} [[User:MathXplore|MathXplore]] ([[User talk:MathXplore|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/MathXplore|contribs]]) 11:45, 8 March 2026 (UTC)

== Blocks for sockpuppet ==

Please block [[User:Harold Foppele]] and [[User:Johnwilliamsiii]] for sockpuppetry based on [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/Harold_Foppele en wiki] CU and [https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?diff=1177465640 commons] CU investigations. The user has also violated copyright, see the above discussion. A block is necessary to prevent further abuse. [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 11:30, 8 March 2026 (UTC)

:&lt;small&gt;@[[User:MathXplore|MathXplore]]&lt;/small&gt; [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 11:31, 8 March 2026 (UTC)
:: {{Done}} [[User:MathXplore|MathXplore]] ([[User talk:MathXplore|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/MathXplore|contribs]]) 11:44, 8 March 2026 (UTC)
:CC. @[[User:Timtrent|Timtrent]], @[[User:Sesquilinear|Sesquilinear]], @[[User:Pi.1415926535|Pi.1415926535]] [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 11:33, 8 March 2026 (UTC)
::Thank you for the ping. I concur based on [[w:en:WP:DUCK|behaviour]]. CUs appear divided. 🇵🇸&amp;zwj;🇺🇦&amp;nbsp;[[User:Timtrent|Timtrent]]&amp;nbsp;🇺🇦&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Timtrent|talk to me]]&amp;nbsp;🇺🇦&amp;zwj;🇵🇸 11:41, 8 March 2026 (UTC)

== Problem when trying to start a discussion with authors of the Plurilingual education portal ==

The authors I wanted to discuss with are called &quot;Project PEP&quot; and my name is Franch Chandler. How can I be allowed to do so ? [[User:French Chandler|French Chandler]] ([[User talk:French Chandler|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/French Chandler|contribs]]) 18:25, 16 March 2026 (UTC)

:@[[User:French Chandler|French Chandler]] place your qestion [https://en.wikiversity.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Projet_PEP&amp;action=edit into the dialog box] on this link and hit Publish page. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 20:22, 16 March 2026 (UTC)

== Please publish my post ==

My post is about &quot;Every child grows and develops at their own pace, but some may experience challenges that affect their ability to perform everyday tasks. These challenges can include difficulties with fine motor skills, sensory processing, handwriting, feeding, and self-regulation. When these issues are not addressed early, they can impact a child’s confidence, academic performance, and independence.

With the rise of digital healthcare services, '''online physical therapy''' has emerged as a powerful and accessible solution for parents seeking support for their children. This modern approach provides structured, personalized therapy programs that can be accessed from the comfort of home, making it easier for families to ensure consistent care.&quot; [[User:Skyabovetherapy|Skyabovetherapy]] ([[User talk:Skyabovetherapy|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Skyabovetherapy|contribs]]) 12:28, 28 March 2026 (UTC)

:@[[User:Skyabovetherapy|Skyabovetherapy]] Well, you can publish it yourself, Wikiversity is a free environement, where everybody can create educational resources. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 14:11, 29 March 2026 (UTC)
::They actually triggered some abuse filters. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 16:24, 29 March 2026 (UTC)
:I looked at your attempts to add this text and I see a link to one website repeated many times, which reminds me of the misuse of Wikiversity for self-promotion or to increase the importance of the website. It is necessary to remind you here that Wikiversity is not a place for promotion, but a place for education. So if you want to educate, it will not be a problem to create the page without external links with a clearly defined procedure for how people should use it and what to expect from it. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 18:07, 1 April 2026 (UTC)

== New user limit ==

Hi, I am creating an AIPA Method learning resource page. 

I am the author of the linked research, and I hit the “new user limit” and “new page with external link” filters while publishing. 

Here is the link to the page in creation: [https://en.wikiversity.org/w/index.php?title=AIPA_Method&amp;veaction=edit] 

Thank you for your help. 

Best regards, 

Senad Dizdarević [[User:Senad Dizdarević|Senad Dizdarević]] ([[User talk:Senad Dizdarević|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Senad Dizdarević|contribs]]) 07:19, 30 March 2026 (UTC)

:@[[User:Senad Dizdarević|Senad Dizdarević]] I should admit I dont know, what is &quot;new user limit&quot;, but if filter blocks your page because of certain external link, you may force to save anyway and sometimes it works. It should not work, when the website is blacklisted. As of now, I am not seeing you to save page in main namespace, so try to save it without external links first. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 07:30, 30 March 2026 (UTC)
::Thank you, you are very kind. 
::I will wait a day, and try again (without links, too). 
::Today, I already created About Me info page, and maybe that is enough for the filters for one day.  [[User:Senad Dizdarević|Senad Dizdarević]] ([[User talk:Senad Dizdarević|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Senad Dizdarević|contribs]]) 07:53, 30 March 2026 (UTC)
:::Well, I have analyzed your contribution to Wikiversity and I should point out here, that this project is not a place for advertising, so there is no way of promoting your books and authority this way. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 17:56, 1 April 2026 (UTC)
::::Hi, my About Me page is just an info page with the neutral as possible presentation of my work. 
::::There is a big difference between informing and advertising. Informing is neutrally stating that something exists and requiring no action, while advertising is a special communication form with intent to cause certain action from readers. For example, click here, click there, order this, buy that. 
::::There is no such intention, form, or terms on my info page. Just neutral information. I don't hide and I am not ashamed that I am write and author, and that is a part of the usual bio, including works. I checked your user page: &quot;I graduated from the Czech University of Life Sciences in Prague and studied information science at the Faculty of Arts of Charles University.&quot; I think that if you had written a book on Life Science, you would have mentioned that as well.
::::Most of the Info page is about my research and AIPA Method which is a valid contribution to psychology, consciousness studies, identity theory, and personality development. Actually, my paper '''AIPA Method: A Cognitive-Phenomenological Model for Identity Reconstruction and Stabilization in Pure Awareness''' is now in the peer review procedure at Journal of Consciousness Studies. 
::::Here is a part from the Wikiversity AIPA Method page in creation (waiting for the end of the time limit for new users):    [[User:Senad Dizdarević|Senad Dizdarević]] ([[User talk:Senad Dizdarević|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Senad Dizdarević|contribs]]) 06:47, 2 April 2026 (UTC)
:::::For the unknown reasons, the form didn't publish my second part of the message: 
:::::I believe this is a valid contribution to Wikiversity. 
:::::Best Regards, 
:::::Senad [[User:Senad Dizdarević|Senad Dizdarević]] ([[User talk:Senad Dizdarević|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Senad Dizdarević|contribs]]) 06:52, 2 April 2026 (UTC)
::::::And the third try: 
:::::: == Introduction ==
::::::The AIPA Method addresses a gap in contemporary personal development and consciousness science: most evidence‑based approaches (CBT, MBSR, MBCT, standard meditation) operate at the level of mental content—reframing thoughts, observing them, or reducing their impact—rather than at the level of identity structure. In contrast, AIPA targets the structural relationship between the self and the mind, aiming at durable identity reconstruction rooted in Pure Awareness rather than symptom management.
::::::The central research question of the primary AIPA preprint is whether a structured, sequentially staged method can produce permanent identity reconstruction rooted in Pure Awareness, and how such a method compares to established approaches in scope, mechanism, and outcome.
:::::: == Theoretical foundations ==
::::::The AIPA framework is grounded in the cognitive‑phenomenological tradition (e.g., McAdams, Varela, Metzinger, Erikson), contemporary consciousness science on minimal phenomenal experience, and qualitative methods advocacy in psychology. It builds directly on:
::::::* Empirical work on pure awareness and Minimal Phenomenal Experience (MPE), especially Gamma &amp; Metzinger’s large‑scale study of content‑reduced awareness states.
::::::* Metzinger’s proposal of minimal phenomenal experience as an entry point for a minimal unifying model of consciousness.
::::::* Narrative identity and partial‑self models within personality and identity theory.
::::::Within this backdrop, AIPA proposes Pure Awareness as a distinct, operationally specified state that can become a structural ground of identity rather than a transient meditative experience.
:::::: == Experiential empiricism ==
::::::The empirical foundation of the AIPA Method is explicitly first‑person and experiential, combining:
::::::* A 22‑year longitudinal autoethnographic self‑study (2003–2025) documenting partial personality episodes, protocol use, and outcomes.
::::::* A 13‑year prospective verification period with zero self‑reported recurrence of targeted harmful behaviors after a dated stabilization point (1 January 2006).
::::::* A high‑ecological‑validity “stress test” during acute bereavement, used to examine whether non‑reactive awareness remains stable under maximal provocation.
::::::* Two independent practitioner cases (an Amazon‑verified report and a structured questionnaire case) providing preliminary convergent signals across cognitive, emotional, behavioral, and identity dimensions.
::::::All central constructs (Pure Awareness, partial personalities, the Switch, identity stabilization) are operationalized with explicit phenomenological and behavioral criteria intended to enable replication and future third‑person measurement.
::::::I believe this is a valid contribution to Wikiversity. 
::::::Best regards, 
::::::Senad [[User:Senad Dizdarević|Senad Dizdarević]] ([[User talk:Senad Dizdarević|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Senad Dizdarević|contribs]]) 06:54, 2 April 2026 (UTC)

== Unable to publish pages  ==

Whenever I try to publish a page with linked sources it gets flagged and says I'm a new user attempting to publish content with outside links. Those outside links are my sources. [[User:Soboyed|Soboyed]] ([[User talk:Soboyed|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Soboyed|contribs]]) 04:52, 2 April 2026 (UTC)

:This restriction is automatically lifted after you have edited for a certain time (I don't recall that time off-hand, but it is not long). This is designed to stop spam. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 04:53, 2 April 2026 (UTC)

== Showing error to publish a Post ==

My  action was constructive, not destructive, please allow to publish it. [[Special:Contributions/&amp;#126;2026-20906-18|&amp;#126;2026-20906-18]] ([[User talk:&amp;#126;2026-20906-18|talk]]) 08:06, 4 April 2026 (UTC)

:Maybe you got caught in a filter. Consider [[Special:CreateAccount|creating an account]]. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 09:06, 4 April 2026 (UTC)
:Your edits, [https://en.wikiversity.org/w/index.php?title=Special:AbuseLog&amp;wpSearchUser=%7E2026-20906-18 these ones], seems to have tripped a filter when you tried to create a page on [[Create]] which external links. [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 23:58, 4 April 2026 (UTC)
:Have you read my [https://en.wikiversity.org/w/index.php?title=Wikiversity:Request_custodian_action&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2802219 previous reply] to you @[[User:~2026-20906-18|~2026-20906-18]]? [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 08:02, 6 April 2026 (UTC)

== Abuse filters which should be deleted ==

Hi, there are some abuse filters which should probably be deleted.
* [[Special:AbuseFilter/1]] (not needed anymore)
* [[Special:AbuseFilter/2]] (no hits since 2018)
* [[Special:AbuseFilter/3]] (not needed since there are global filters that disallow this specific type of spam filter 3 would have catched)
* [[Special:AbuseFilter/4]] (looking at the logs, there are too many false positives)
* [[Special:AbuseFilter/5]] (no hits since 2023)
* Abuse filters 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 (these filters are not needed anymore)
* [[Special:AbuseFilter/17]] (no hits since 2022)
* [[Special:AbuseFilter/19]] (no hits since 2019)
* [[Special:AbuseFilter/21]] (false positives, vandal currently inactive)
Thanks. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 03:51, 5 April 2026 (UTC)

:Why do these need to be deleted rather than inactivated? Do inactive abuse filters cause a server strain? —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 05:39, 5 April 2026 (UTC)
:: Deleted filters do not cause strain to the servers. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 14:28, 5 April 2026 (UTC)
:These sounds like sensible suggestions but, yes, would inactivation perhaps make more sense than deletion for at least some  filters? -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 09:35, 5 April 2026 (UTC)
:I would keep them @[[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]]. Alternatively, I would turn off the ones that haven't caught anything for a long time, but I would leave them enabled in case they need to be turned on or improved. If someone has already written the code and we don't have hundreds of free man-hours of programmers on Wikiversity, the server load seems secondary to me, and is negligible compared to other things. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 08:11, 6 April 2026 (UTC)
:: I know how to write abuse filter code and regex, but I would recommend disabling filters that have never caught anything in a long time ''and'' those who made lots of false positives. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 15:09, 6 April 2026 (UTC)
:::Of course @[[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]], there are people here today who are capable of changing the code. But the question is what it will be like in a few years, the question is what will happen if those two are busy for a long time, etc. That's why I would leave it so that those who don't know much about code can be inspired by it and will need to do something with it someday - plus, more code for different types of filtering is actually great educational material on how those filters work. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 11:41, 17 April 2026 (UTC)

Here's the updated list of abuse filters under review with actions I've taken (several disabled, one basic code improvement, and some actions changed) - none have been deleted so they can all be edited and reactivayed - please suggest any further changes:
* [[Special:AbuseFilter/1]] (not needed anymore) - One time account spam bot - 4 hits over 10 years ago - Disabled in 2024 - May be useful in future
* [[Special:AbuseFilter/2]] (no hits since 2018) - Userspace spamming - 778 hits; none since 2018 likely due to global filters - Now disabled
* [[Special:AbuseFilter/3]] (not needed since there are global filters that disallow this specific type of spam filter 3 would have catched) - Specific user page spam - 1,101 hits most recent 7 March 2026 - Still active - Kept enabled
* [[Special:AbuseFilter/4]] (looking at the logs, there are too many false positives) - Questionable Language (profanity) - 6,055 hits including very recently - However it was logging hits without taking any actions - Edited to reduce likelihood of false positives by only applying filter to users with low (&lt; 20) edit count and applied weak actions to tag and warn but not prevent publishing the content
* [[Special:AbuseFilter/5]] (no hits since 2023) - Blocked Solicitation Links - 95 hits; none since 2023 - blocks specific historical spam sites - Non-active - Now disabled
* Abuse filters 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 (these filters are not needed anymore) - Not reviewed - They are currently disabled
* [[Special:AbuseFilter/17]] (no hits since 2022) - Fundamental Physics Edits - 347 hits; none since 2022 - Non-active and very specific for a historical issue - Now disabled 
* [[Special:AbuseFilter/19]] (no hits since 2019) - Page Creation - 20 hits; none since 2019 - Retained for historical reference and possible future updates - Now disabled
* [[Special:AbuseFilter/21]] (false positives, vandal currently inactive) - Globally Banned Editor (renamed to Low-edit Spam Monitor) - 2,829 hits including very recent - Only applies to users with less than 5 edits and takes no actions / monitoring only - Reviewing the details of the hits I don't see many false positives and have strengthened its actions to add a tag and warning

-- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 11:57, 9 April 2026 (UTC)

== Block request ==

Please block ~2026-20985-80/~2026-21079-90/~2026-21223-88. Reason: Vandalism. [[User:Àncilu|Àncilu]] ([[User talk:Àncilu|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Àncilu|contribs]]) 23:24, 5 April 2026 (UTC)

:All edits should be deleted and the first is blocked by Atcovi. [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 00:33, 6 April 2026 (UTC)

== Antispam - Filter 12 ==
{{ping|Codename Noreste}} Thanks for contacting me with a suggested [[Special:AbuseFilter|abuse filter]] for the coupon spam we've been getting. A very much appreciated time saver. Per your suggestion, abuse filter 12 has been reactivated with your updated regex. It should tag and prevent page creation actions for coupon promo etc. Sincerely, James -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 10:33, 15 April 2026 (UTC)
: @[[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] Please do the following to filter 12:
:# Enable the block action (temporary for unregistered users, indefinite for registered users)
:# Disable both the disallow and tag actions, since that filter will be set to block
: Thank you. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 13:42, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
::Excellent. Done:
::* Block duration for non-registered users = 1 week
::* Block duration for registered users = indefinite
::* Disallow and tagging disabled
::Thankyou. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 10:24, 9 May 2026 (UTC)

== Urgent! error message This action has been automatically identified as potentially harmful, and therefore disallowed ==

While submitting the post this error was coming &quot;This action has been automatically identified as potentially harmful, and therefore disallowed. If you believe your action was constructive, please inform an administrator of what you were trying to do. A brief description of the abuse rule which your action matched is: New User Created Page with External Link&quot; How to resolve it?

Here is the content:

{{note|marketing material removed}}

[[User:EasyshikshaMarketing|EasyshikshaMarketing]] ([[User talk:EasyshikshaMarketing|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/EasyshikshaMarketing|contribs]]) 05:14, 17 April 2026 (UTC)
: That's because Wikiversity doesn't accept advertising. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 05:20, 17 April 2026 (UTC)
::So this is fine
::'''Online Internship and Digital Learning for Students'''
::Online learning has become an important part of modern education. With the help of the internet and digital tools, students can now study, practice, and gain experience without being physically present in a classroom. One key part of this system is the online internship, which helps students learn real-world skills along with their studies.
::An online internship allows students to work on tasks and projects through digital platforms. This makes learning more practical and useful, especially for those who want to understand how real work environments function.
::'''Background'''
::The concept of online learning developed from distance education, where students learned from remote locations. Over time, with the growth of digital technology, learning has become more interactive and flexible.
::The introduction of the online internship has added another important layer to digital education. It combines theoretical learning with practical experience, helping students prepare for future careers.
::During global events such as the COVID-19 pandemic, online education and online internship programs became essential. They helped students continue learning and gaining experience despite restrictions on physical movement.
::'''Importance of Online Internship'''
::An online internship plays an important role in student development. It helps bridge the gap between academic knowledge and practical skills.
::'''Some key points include:'''
::Students understand how real work is done
::They develop basic professional skills
::It supports career readiness
::It allows learning without location limits
::By participating in an online internship, students can improve their confidence and gain early exposure to different fields.
::'''Features of Online Internship-Based Learning'''
::Modern education platforms often include online internship opportunities as part of their learning system. These usually offer:
::Flexible schedules for students
::Access to learning from home
::Beginner-friendly tasks and projects
::A combination of theory and practice
::Such features make online internship programs suitable for a wide range of learners, including beginners.
::'''Learning Tasks'''
::Explore how online internship programs support student learning in digital environments.
::Identify how students can gain practical experience through an online internship
::Analyze the role of flexible learning in improving student engagement
::Understand how online education and internships work together
::'''References'''
::[https://ijpsl.in/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/E-Learning_Hanaaya-Navaneeth.pdf The Past, Present and Future of E-Learning: Hanaaya Varyani and Navaneeth M S]
::[https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/9788102 Current Trends and Future Perspectives of e-Learning in India]
::'''See Also'''
::[https://easyshiksha.com/online_courses/internship Online Internship]
::[https://easyshiksha.com/online_courses/ Online Courses]
::[https://easyshiksha.com/online_courses/kids-learning Kids Learning]
::[https://easyshiksha.com/career_helper/ Career Guidance] [[User:EasyshikshaMarketing|EasyshikshaMarketing]] ([[User talk:EasyshikshaMarketing|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/EasyshikshaMarketing|contribs]]) 05:27, 17 April 2026 (UTC)
:::@[[User:EasyshikshaMarketing|EasyshikshaMarketing]] Wikiversity is a resource for education, or a space for education. However, your intention to link to another website is obvious, and such content does not belong here, as it contradicts the purpose of Wikiversity. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 11:38, 17 April 2026 (UTC)

==AI-generated images==
Seeking your advice.

Myself and students use some AI-generated images in the [[Motivation and emotion]] project.

[[User:Dronebogus]] has been removing some of these images from Wikiversity pages and nominating them for deletion at Commons. As a result, some have been deleted and some have been kept.

Dronebogus has made some useful edits and image suggestions for [[Motivation and emotion]] which I've appreciated and  incorporated. However, there are other edits to remove an AI image by Dronebogus that I've reverted where I think the image is more educational than no image or an alternative image suggested by Dronebogus.

There are a couple of pages where Dronebogus has reverted my reversion, so we are at risk of edit warring. We have briefly discussed and warned each other on our user talk pages, but it seems to come down to a difference in perception about the educational usefulness of the AI images.

So, I'm asking here for others to please review the recent edit histories for these pages:
* [[Motivation and emotion/Lectures/Brain and physiological needs]]
* [[Motivation and emotion/Book/2025/Stockholm syndrome emotion]]

and let us know what you think about the AI image suitability vs. using no image or alternative images suggested by Dronebogus.

Sincerely, James -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 11:45, 26 April 2026 (UTC)

:I think Jtneill needs to try harder to find non-AI alternatives both on Commons and the web. I’m not reiterating the well known problems with generative AI— you can read about those on Wikipedia and the broader Internet. Needless to say it’s kind of just inherently toxic. If you use it, it should be the last resort of last resorts. Just my stance, which I consider perfectly valid and reasonable. [[User:Dronebogus|Dronebogus]] ([[User talk:Dronebogus|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dronebogus|contribs]]) 04:10, 27 April 2026 (UTC)

== Request for Page Creation Approval - Research on Dr. Ian Stevenson ==


'''Hello Administrators,'''

I am a digital archivist and researcher attempting to create an educational page regarding Dr. Ian Stevenson's scientific work, specifically titled &quot;Where Reincarnation and Biology Intersect&quot; and its official Vietnamese edition.

My edits are purely constructive, aimed at integrating local research context with global structured data (including '''Wikidata Q139548587'''). The automated filter is currently preventing publication due to &quot;new user external link limits.&quot;

I have ensured that all citations, references, and images (sourced from Wikimedia Commons) are strictly academic and non-promotional. Could you please review my contributions and consider whitelisting my account or approving this specific page creation?

Thank you for your assistance in preserving this research '''legacy''' within the open knowledge ecosystem.

'''Best regards,''' [[User:Ian Stevenson777|Ian Stevenson777]] ([[User talk:Ian Stevenson777|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Ian Stevenson777|contribs]]) 07:26, 28 April 2026 (UTC)
: The page title should probably be in English, as this is English Wikiversity. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 14:19, 28 April 2026 (UTC)
:@[[User:Ian Stevenson777|Ian Stevenson777]] I looked at the text and it seems to me that it is informative, but the user cannot learn anything from it because they would have to buy the book. In this regard, it seems to me that it is enough [[:w:Where Reincarnation and Biology Intersect|to have that article on Wikipedia]] and there is no need to duplicate it here on Wikiversity. If you are particularly interested with its Vietnamese translation, I would focus on Vietnamese Wikipedia, but it seems to me, that the article there [https://vi.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=N%C6%A1i_lu%C3%A2n_h%E1%BB%93i_v%C3%A0_sinh_h%E1%BB%8Dc_giao_nhau&amp;oldid=75029095 have some problems at the moment]. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 12:51, 5 May 2026 (UTC)

== Call for custodians and bureaucrats ==

Can I encourage currently active [[Wikiversity:Curators|curators]] to consider putting themselves forward for [[Wikiversity:Custodianship|custodianship]] and/or [[Wikiversity:Bureaucrat|bureaucratship]]. We have a productive, capable group of [[Wikiversity:Staff|staff]] at the moment who should probably have more rights to better support the project and we are light on for active custodians and bureaucrats. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 11:34, 9 May 2026 (UTC)
: I'm willing to do so. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 11:48, 9 May 2026 (UTC)

== Interface administrator flag request ==

@[[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]], @[[User:Mu301|Mu301]] I am requesting IA flag to delete [[MediaWiki:Gadget-WikiSign.js]]. It was requested for deletion by [[User:Sophivorus|a trusted user]] and I think it can be deleted. Once I delete it, I will notify you and you can remove the flag. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 08:24, 10 May 2026 (UTC)</text>
      <sha1>0yzzlxktffytvbzbpi6w685l1uj47c8</sha1>
    </revision>
    <revision>
      <id>2808159</id>
      <parentid>2808151</parentid>
      <timestamp>2026-05-10T10:27:09Z</timestamp>
      <contributor>
        <username>Jtneill</username>
        <id>10242</id>
      </contributor>
      <comment>/* Interface administrator flag request */ Reply</comment>
      <origin>2808159</origin>
      <model>wikitext</model>
      <format>text/x-wiki</format>
      <text bytes="41034" sha1="3zx7dzmkxuzsvuuzpc5o3opmkf31cq2" xml:space="preserve">{{/Header}}
== Dan Polansky ==

I would like to ask you to assess the behavior of Dan Polansky, who in my opinion continues to violate [[Wikiversity:Etiquette|Etiquette]], calls users who disagree with him trolls, [https://en.wikiversity.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Harold_Foppele&amp;oldid=2760143#Your_qualification questions their expertise], tests them, etc. This is most evident in [[Wikiversity:Community Review/Dan Polansky]], where he has already indicated that two discussion opponents are trolls. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 08:05, 18 November 2025 (UTC)
: The coddling of overt disruptor Harold Foppele (substantiation is in RCA above) and proven provocateur and disruptor Juandev (substantiation in CR above) must stop. The English Wikiversity must start to properly curate its content and discipline disruptive editors. --[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] ([[User talk:Dan Polansky|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dan Polansky|contribs]]) 08:10, 18 November 2025 (UTC)
:[[Wikiversity:Community Review/Dan Polansky]] is underway; outcome pending. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 12:03, 27 November 2025 (UTC)
::It has been closed with consensus to ban him indefinitely from this project, I believe there is nothing else to do here. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 22:06, 11 March 2026 (UTC)

== Sidewide count.js ==

i would like something like: [[Template:User contrib count/count.js]]. i created [[Template:User contrib count]] and a user/common.js. {{User contrib count}}.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt; so a &quot;count.js&quot; would complete it. See [[User:Harold Foppele/common.js]].
If an Administrator could help please. Cheers [[User:Harold Foppele|Harold Foppele]] ([[User talk:Harold Foppele|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Harold Foppele|contribs]]) 19:22, 18 January 2026 (UTC)

== need to add my profile ==

im trying to add new profile content  [[User:PAGURUMURTHY|PAGURUMURTHY]] ([[User talk:PAGURUMURTHY|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PAGURUMURTHY|contribs]]) 18:03, 4 February 2026 (UTC)

:You can edit it now. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 18:05, 4 February 2026 (UTC)
::where can create a new one [[User:PAGURUMURTHY|PAGURUMURTHY]] ([[User talk:PAGURUMURTHY|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PAGURUMURTHY|contribs]]) 18:51, 4 February 2026 (UTC)
:::i have created and its in sandbox. i would like to know when it will be approved  [[User:PAGURUMURTHY|PAGURUMURTHY]] ([[User talk:PAGURUMURTHY|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PAGURUMURTHY|contribs]]) 19:38, 4 February 2026 (UTC)
::::Please don’t create [[wv:spam|spam]] pages as it will be deleted. Please also read [[WV:Scope]] [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 04:01, 5 February 2026 (UTC)

== Im trying to add new profile while add content its shows not alowed ==

This action has been automatically identified as potentially harmful, and therefore disallowed. If you believe your action was constructive, please [[Wikiversity:Request custodian action|inform an administrator]] of what you were trying to do. A brief description of the abuse rule which your action matched is: New User Exceeded New Page Limit

This action has been automatically identified as potentially harmful, and therefore disallowed. If you believe your action was constructive, please [[Wikiversity:Request custodian action|inform an administrator]] of what you were trying to do. A brief description of the abuse rule which your action matched is: New User Created Page with External Link [[User:PAGURUMURTHY|PAGURUMURTHY]] ([[User talk:PAGURUMURTHY|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PAGURUMURTHY|contribs]]) 18:51, 4 February 2026 (UTC)

== New User: cannot create talk page ==

Hi, I am a new user of Wikiversity and I wanted to create a talk page for the article [[ChatGPT's Essay on Kohlberg's Theory: AI's Use in Academic Writing]]. As a new user, I was barred from performing this action. The text that I wanted to add to the talk page is:

&lt;blockquote&gt;
I have doubts as to to the reliability of this essay. Take for rexample the sentence:

&lt;blockquote&gt;
Due to its efficiency, AI has saved 380,000-403,000 lives per year in European healthcare as reported in a recent Deloitte and MedTech Europe report&lt;ref&gt;Dantas, C., Mackiewicz, K., Tageo, V., Jacucci, G., Guardado, D., Ortet, S., Varlamis, I., Maniadakis, M., De Lera, E., Quintas, J., Kocsis, O., &amp; Vassiliou, C. (2021). Benefits and hurdles of AI in the workplace – what comes next? ''International Journal of Artificial Intelligence and Expert Systems, 10'', 9-17. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/351993615_Benefits_and_Hurdles_of_AI_In_The_Workplace_-What_Comes_Next&lt;/ref&gt;.
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Reading the reference (freely available on ResearchGate), one notes:

# that the reference is from 2021 (predating the widespread use of LLMs such as ChatGPT and the associated 'AI' boom), and
# that the reference factually contradicts this essay.

Quoting from the reference:

&lt;blockquote&gt;
There are enormous benefits of applying AI-based solutions to monitor workers’ health and prevent accidents or, currently, COVID-19 infections, and those benefits are reported with enormous potential. According to the recent Deloitte and MedTech Europe report [11], implementing AI in European healthcare systems could save up 380,000 to 403,000 lives annually or €170.9 to 212.4 billion per year.
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Not that the reference says ''could save'', not ''saves'' as in the essay.

This calls into question the reliability of the essay.

&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Could an administrator make this addition for me? Thank you! 
{{reflist}}
[[User:Æolus|Æolus]] ([[User talk:Æolus|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Æolus|contribs]]) 06:53, 5 February 2026 (UTC)

:@[[User:Æolus|Æolus]] I have added it for you, you can change the header and sign it now. [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 08:05, 5 February 2026 (UTC)
::Thank you! [[User:Æolus|Æolus]] ([[User talk:Æolus|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Æolus|contribs]]) 12:43, 5 February 2026 (UTC)

== Disallowed to add a page on a course ==

I'm trying to populate a newly created course on Wikiversity, but it blocks me from creating more pages with &quot;New User Exceeded New Page Limit&quot;. Could this be lifted please? [[User:Berkeleywho|Berkeleywho]] ([[User talk:Berkeleywho|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Berkeleywho|contribs]]) 13:21, 15 February 2026 (UTC)

:Sorry! Never mind. I was trying to create a new article instead of a new page. All good now. [[User:Berkeleywho|Berkeleywho]] ([[User talk:Berkeleywho|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Berkeleywho|contribs]]) 14:03, 15 February 2026 (UTC)

== Harold Foppele adding LLM-generated nonsense and personal fiction ==

I became aware of [[User:Harold Foppele]]'s editing after I deleted some of his uploads on Commons. He appears to be adding a large amount of text and images that are some combination of personal fiction and LLM-generated nonsense. This includes:
*[[Quantum Ultra fast lasers#Future thought experiment|Personal speculative fiction]] in an otherwise &quot;nonfiction&quot; article
*Uploading nonsense LLM-created [[:File:Rontosecond pulse laser (Schematic).jpg|diagrams]] and [[:File:Rontosecond pulse laser (Futuristic).jpg|renders]] for nonexistent lab equipment, with fake source (on Commons, he indicated these files as having been created by him using an LLM)
*Uploading nonsense LLM-created images of equations with obvious artifacts. These images, such as [[:File:Redfield equation (non-Markovian).png]] and [[:File:Lindblad equation (Markovian).png]], don't even match the text he puts them with.
Much of his writing is also of extremely poor quality, to the point where it's not clear whether it's written by him or an LLM. I'm not an active editor on this project, so I'm not as familiar with the standards here, but I believe this is worth custodian attention. [[User:Pi.1415926535|Pi.1415926535]] ([[User talk:Pi.1415926535|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Pi.1415926535|contribs]]) 03:06, 23 February 2026 (UTC)

:Fake source ''and'' contradictory copyright info, claiming both public domain and CC license. Moreover, if they are indeed nearly-direct LLM output, depending on jurisdiction they may not even be eligible for copyright.
:I've put speedy deletion marks for the equations, because they're obviously not coherent mathematical equations (the parentheses don't match, the symbols merge into each other the way text in image models often do, etc) [[User:Sesquilinear|Sesquilinear]] ([[User talk:Sesquilinear|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Sesquilinear|contribs]]) 21:50, 7 March 2026 (UTC)

== Repeated removal of RFD notices by Harold Foppele ==

{{User|Harold Foppele }}

This editor is appearing in multiple noticeboards for behaviour which is contentious. Ther latest adventure is the repeated removal of tye RFD notice at [[Quantum/Henry C. Kapteyn]]. You will see from their contributions record the number of times. I have warned Tham on their user tag page that this is tantaomunt to volunteering to be blocked here. They have a track record of achieving blocks on enWiki and Commons already.

They have all the appearance of shooting not to understand when given direct information about their behaviour, whichever project they are editing, and are fast becoming a time sink. Their behaviour across multiple WMF sites may well lead to a Global Lock, but I do not believe they have quite reached the threshold for that.

I believe that what is required is a preventative block to seek to ensure thatchy understand the seriousness of their behaviour, and the need to be collegial. 🇵🇸&amp;zwj;🇺🇦&amp;nbsp;[[User:Timtrent|Timtrent]]&amp;nbsp;🇺🇦&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Timtrent|talk to me]]&amp;nbsp;🇺🇦&amp;zwj;🇵🇸 23:03, 4 March 2026 (UTC)
: {{Done}} [[User:MathXplore|MathXplore]] ([[User talk:MathXplore|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/MathXplore|contribs]]) 11:45, 8 March 2026 (UTC)

== Blocks for sockpuppet ==

Please block [[User:Harold Foppele]] and [[User:Johnwilliamsiii]] for sockpuppetry based on [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/Harold_Foppele en wiki] CU and [https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?diff=1177465640 commons] CU investigations. The user has also violated copyright, see the above discussion. A block is necessary to prevent further abuse. [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 11:30, 8 March 2026 (UTC)

:&lt;small&gt;@[[User:MathXplore|MathXplore]]&lt;/small&gt; [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 11:31, 8 March 2026 (UTC)
:: {{Done}} [[User:MathXplore|MathXplore]] ([[User talk:MathXplore|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/MathXplore|contribs]]) 11:44, 8 March 2026 (UTC)
:CC. @[[User:Timtrent|Timtrent]], @[[User:Sesquilinear|Sesquilinear]], @[[User:Pi.1415926535|Pi.1415926535]] [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 11:33, 8 March 2026 (UTC)
::Thank you for the ping. I concur based on [[w:en:WP:DUCK|behaviour]]. CUs appear divided. 🇵🇸&amp;zwj;🇺🇦&amp;nbsp;[[User:Timtrent|Timtrent]]&amp;nbsp;🇺🇦&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Timtrent|talk to me]]&amp;nbsp;🇺🇦&amp;zwj;🇵🇸 11:41, 8 March 2026 (UTC)

== Problem when trying to start a discussion with authors of the Plurilingual education portal ==

The authors I wanted to discuss with are called &quot;Project PEP&quot; and my name is Franch Chandler. How can I be allowed to do so ? [[User:French Chandler|French Chandler]] ([[User talk:French Chandler|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/French Chandler|contribs]]) 18:25, 16 March 2026 (UTC)

:@[[User:French Chandler|French Chandler]] place your qestion [https://en.wikiversity.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Projet_PEP&amp;action=edit into the dialog box] on this link and hit Publish page. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 20:22, 16 March 2026 (UTC)

== Please publish my post ==

My post is about &quot;Every child grows and develops at their own pace, but some may experience challenges that affect their ability to perform everyday tasks. These challenges can include difficulties with fine motor skills, sensory processing, handwriting, feeding, and self-regulation. When these issues are not addressed early, they can impact a child’s confidence, academic performance, and independence.

With the rise of digital healthcare services, '''online physical therapy''' has emerged as a powerful and accessible solution for parents seeking support for their children. This modern approach provides structured, personalized therapy programs that can be accessed from the comfort of home, making it easier for families to ensure consistent care.&quot; [[User:Skyabovetherapy|Skyabovetherapy]] ([[User talk:Skyabovetherapy|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Skyabovetherapy|contribs]]) 12:28, 28 March 2026 (UTC)

:@[[User:Skyabovetherapy|Skyabovetherapy]] Well, you can publish it yourself, Wikiversity is a free environement, where everybody can create educational resources. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 14:11, 29 March 2026 (UTC)
::They actually triggered some abuse filters. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 16:24, 29 March 2026 (UTC)
:I looked at your attempts to add this text and I see a link to one website repeated many times, which reminds me of the misuse of Wikiversity for self-promotion or to increase the importance of the website. It is necessary to remind you here that Wikiversity is not a place for promotion, but a place for education. So if you want to educate, it will not be a problem to create the page without external links with a clearly defined procedure for how people should use it and what to expect from it. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 18:07, 1 April 2026 (UTC)

== New user limit ==

Hi, I am creating an AIPA Method learning resource page. 

I am the author of the linked research, and I hit the “new user limit” and “new page with external link” filters while publishing. 

Here is the link to the page in creation: [https://en.wikiversity.org/w/index.php?title=AIPA_Method&amp;veaction=edit] 

Thank you for your help. 

Best regards, 

Senad Dizdarević [[User:Senad Dizdarević|Senad Dizdarević]] ([[User talk:Senad Dizdarević|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Senad Dizdarević|contribs]]) 07:19, 30 March 2026 (UTC)

:@[[User:Senad Dizdarević|Senad Dizdarević]] I should admit I dont know, what is &quot;new user limit&quot;, but if filter blocks your page because of certain external link, you may force to save anyway and sometimes it works. It should not work, when the website is blacklisted. As of now, I am not seeing you to save page in main namespace, so try to save it without external links first. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 07:30, 30 March 2026 (UTC)
::Thank you, you are very kind. 
::I will wait a day, and try again (without links, too). 
::Today, I already created About Me info page, and maybe that is enough for the filters for one day.  [[User:Senad Dizdarević|Senad Dizdarević]] ([[User talk:Senad Dizdarević|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Senad Dizdarević|contribs]]) 07:53, 30 March 2026 (UTC)
:::Well, I have analyzed your contribution to Wikiversity and I should point out here, that this project is not a place for advertising, so there is no way of promoting your books and authority this way. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 17:56, 1 April 2026 (UTC)
::::Hi, my About Me page is just an info page with the neutral as possible presentation of my work. 
::::There is a big difference between informing and advertising. Informing is neutrally stating that something exists and requiring no action, while advertising is a special communication form with intent to cause certain action from readers. For example, click here, click there, order this, buy that. 
::::There is no such intention, form, or terms on my info page. Just neutral information. I don't hide and I am not ashamed that I am write and author, and that is a part of the usual bio, including works. I checked your user page: &quot;I graduated from the Czech University of Life Sciences in Prague and studied information science at the Faculty of Arts of Charles University.&quot; I think that if you had written a book on Life Science, you would have mentioned that as well.
::::Most of the Info page is about my research and AIPA Method which is a valid contribution to psychology, consciousness studies, identity theory, and personality development. Actually, my paper '''AIPA Method: A Cognitive-Phenomenological Model for Identity Reconstruction and Stabilization in Pure Awareness''' is now in the peer review procedure at Journal of Consciousness Studies. 
::::Here is a part from the Wikiversity AIPA Method page in creation (waiting for the end of the time limit for new users):    [[User:Senad Dizdarević|Senad Dizdarević]] ([[User talk:Senad Dizdarević|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Senad Dizdarević|contribs]]) 06:47, 2 April 2026 (UTC)
:::::For the unknown reasons, the form didn't publish my second part of the message: 
:::::I believe this is a valid contribution to Wikiversity. 
:::::Best Regards, 
:::::Senad [[User:Senad Dizdarević|Senad Dizdarević]] ([[User talk:Senad Dizdarević|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Senad Dizdarević|contribs]]) 06:52, 2 April 2026 (UTC)
::::::And the third try: 
:::::: == Introduction ==
::::::The AIPA Method addresses a gap in contemporary personal development and consciousness science: most evidence‑based approaches (CBT, MBSR, MBCT, standard meditation) operate at the level of mental content—reframing thoughts, observing them, or reducing their impact—rather than at the level of identity structure. In contrast, AIPA targets the structural relationship between the self and the mind, aiming at durable identity reconstruction rooted in Pure Awareness rather than symptom management.
::::::The central research question of the primary AIPA preprint is whether a structured, sequentially staged method can produce permanent identity reconstruction rooted in Pure Awareness, and how such a method compares to established approaches in scope, mechanism, and outcome.
:::::: == Theoretical foundations ==
::::::The AIPA framework is grounded in the cognitive‑phenomenological tradition (e.g., McAdams, Varela, Metzinger, Erikson), contemporary consciousness science on minimal phenomenal experience, and qualitative methods advocacy in psychology. It builds directly on:
::::::* Empirical work on pure awareness and Minimal Phenomenal Experience (MPE), especially Gamma &amp; Metzinger’s large‑scale study of content‑reduced awareness states.
::::::* Metzinger’s proposal of minimal phenomenal experience as an entry point for a minimal unifying model of consciousness.
::::::* Narrative identity and partial‑self models within personality and identity theory.
::::::Within this backdrop, AIPA proposes Pure Awareness as a distinct, operationally specified state that can become a structural ground of identity rather than a transient meditative experience.
:::::: == Experiential empiricism ==
::::::The empirical foundation of the AIPA Method is explicitly first‑person and experiential, combining:
::::::* A 22‑year longitudinal autoethnographic self‑study (2003–2025) documenting partial personality episodes, protocol use, and outcomes.
::::::* A 13‑year prospective verification period with zero self‑reported recurrence of targeted harmful behaviors after a dated stabilization point (1 January 2006).
::::::* A high‑ecological‑validity “stress test” during acute bereavement, used to examine whether non‑reactive awareness remains stable under maximal provocation.
::::::* Two independent practitioner cases (an Amazon‑verified report and a structured questionnaire case) providing preliminary convergent signals across cognitive, emotional, behavioral, and identity dimensions.
::::::All central constructs (Pure Awareness, partial personalities, the Switch, identity stabilization) are operationalized with explicit phenomenological and behavioral criteria intended to enable replication and future third‑person measurement.
::::::I believe this is a valid contribution to Wikiversity. 
::::::Best regards, 
::::::Senad [[User:Senad Dizdarević|Senad Dizdarević]] ([[User talk:Senad Dizdarević|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Senad Dizdarević|contribs]]) 06:54, 2 April 2026 (UTC)

== Unable to publish pages  ==

Whenever I try to publish a page with linked sources it gets flagged and says I'm a new user attempting to publish content with outside links. Those outside links are my sources. [[User:Soboyed|Soboyed]] ([[User talk:Soboyed|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Soboyed|contribs]]) 04:52, 2 April 2026 (UTC)

:This restriction is automatically lifted after you have edited for a certain time (I don't recall that time off-hand, but it is not long). This is designed to stop spam. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 04:53, 2 April 2026 (UTC)

== Showing error to publish a Post ==

My  action was constructive, not destructive, please allow to publish it. [[Special:Contributions/&amp;#126;2026-20906-18|&amp;#126;2026-20906-18]] ([[User talk:&amp;#126;2026-20906-18|talk]]) 08:06, 4 April 2026 (UTC)

:Maybe you got caught in a filter. Consider [[Special:CreateAccount|creating an account]]. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 09:06, 4 April 2026 (UTC)
:Your edits, [https://en.wikiversity.org/w/index.php?title=Special:AbuseLog&amp;wpSearchUser=%7E2026-20906-18 these ones], seems to have tripped a filter when you tried to create a page on [[Create]] which external links. [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 23:58, 4 April 2026 (UTC)
:Have you read my [https://en.wikiversity.org/w/index.php?title=Wikiversity:Request_custodian_action&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=2802219 previous reply] to you @[[User:~2026-20906-18|~2026-20906-18]]? [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 08:02, 6 April 2026 (UTC)

== Abuse filters which should be deleted ==

Hi, there are some abuse filters which should probably be deleted.
* [[Special:AbuseFilter/1]] (not needed anymore)
* [[Special:AbuseFilter/2]] (no hits since 2018)
* [[Special:AbuseFilter/3]] (not needed since there are global filters that disallow this specific type of spam filter 3 would have catched)
* [[Special:AbuseFilter/4]] (looking at the logs, there are too many false positives)
* [[Special:AbuseFilter/5]] (no hits since 2023)
* Abuse filters 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 (these filters are not needed anymore)
* [[Special:AbuseFilter/17]] (no hits since 2022)
* [[Special:AbuseFilter/19]] (no hits since 2019)
* [[Special:AbuseFilter/21]] (false positives, vandal currently inactive)
Thanks. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 03:51, 5 April 2026 (UTC)

:Why do these need to be deleted rather than inactivated? Do inactive abuse filters cause a server strain? —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 05:39, 5 April 2026 (UTC)
:: Deleted filters do not cause strain to the servers. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 14:28, 5 April 2026 (UTC)
:These sounds like sensible suggestions but, yes, would inactivation perhaps make more sense than deletion for at least some  filters? -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 09:35, 5 April 2026 (UTC)
:I would keep them @[[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]]. Alternatively, I would turn off the ones that haven't caught anything for a long time, but I would leave them enabled in case they need to be turned on or improved. If someone has already written the code and we don't have hundreds of free man-hours of programmers on Wikiversity, the server load seems secondary to me, and is negligible compared to other things. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 08:11, 6 April 2026 (UTC)
:: I know how to write abuse filter code and regex, but I would recommend disabling filters that have never caught anything in a long time ''and'' those who made lots of false positives. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 15:09, 6 April 2026 (UTC)
:::Of course @[[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]], there are people here today who are capable of changing the code. But the question is what it will be like in a few years, the question is what will happen if those two are busy for a long time, etc. That's why I would leave it so that those who don't know much about code can be inspired by it and will need to do something with it someday - plus, more code for different types of filtering is actually great educational material on how those filters work. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 11:41, 17 April 2026 (UTC)

Here's the updated list of abuse filters under review with actions I've taken (several disabled, one basic code improvement, and some actions changed) - none have been deleted so they can all be edited and reactivayed - please suggest any further changes:
* [[Special:AbuseFilter/1]] (not needed anymore) - One time account spam bot - 4 hits over 10 years ago - Disabled in 2024 - May be useful in future
* [[Special:AbuseFilter/2]] (no hits since 2018) - Userspace spamming - 778 hits; none since 2018 likely due to global filters - Now disabled
* [[Special:AbuseFilter/3]] (not needed since there are global filters that disallow this specific type of spam filter 3 would have catched) - Specific user page spam - 1,101 hits most recent 7 March 2026 - Still active - Kept enabled
* [[Special:AbuseFilter/4]] (looking at the logs, there are too many false positives) - Questionable Language (profanity) - 6,055 hits including very recently - However it was logging hits without taking any actions - Edited to reduce likelihood of false positives by only applying filter to users with low (&lt; 20) edit count and applied weak actions to tag and warn but not prevent publishing the content
* [[Special:AbuseFilter/5]] (no hits since 2023) - Blocked Solicitation Links - 95 hits; none since 2023 - blocks specific historical spam sites - Non-active - Now disabled
* Abuse filters 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 (these filters are not needed anymore) - Not reviewed - They are currently disabled
* [[Special:AbuseFilter/17]] (no hits since 2022) - Fundamental Physics Edits - 347 hits; none since 2022 - Non-active and very specific for a historical issue - Now disabled 
* [[Special:AbuseFilter/19]] (no hits since 2019) - Page Creation - 20 hits; none since 2019 - Retained for historical reference and possible future updates - Now disabled
* [[Special:AbuseFilter/21]] (false positives, vandal currently inactive) - Globally Banned Editor (renamed to Low-edit Spam Monitor) - 2,829 hits including very recent - Only applies to users with less than 5 edits and takes no actions / monitoring only - Reviewing the details of the hits I don't see many false positives and have strengthened its actions to add a tag and warning

-- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 11:57, 9 April 2026 (UTC)

== Block request ==

Please block ~2026-20985-80/~2026-21079-90/~2026-21223-88. Reason: Vandalism. [[User:Àncilu|Àncilu]] ([[User talk:Àncilu|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Àncilu|contribs]]) 23:24, 5 April 2026 (UTC)

:All edits should be deleted and the first is blocked by Atcovi. [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 00:33, 6 April 2026 (UTC)

== Antispam - Filter 12 ==
{{ping|Codename Noreste}} Thanks for contacting me with a suggested [[Special:AbuseFilter|abuse filter]] for the coupon spam we've been getting. A very much appreciated time saver. Per your suggestion, abuse filter 12 has been reactivated with your updated regex. It should tag and prevent page creation actions for coupon promo etc. Sincerely, James -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 10:33, 15 April 2026 (UTC)
: @[[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] Please do the following to filter 12:
:# Enable the block action (temporary for unregistered users, indefinite for registered users)
:# Disable both the disallow and tag actions, since that filter will be set to block
: Thank you. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 13:42, 5 May 2026 (UTC)
::Excellent. Done:
::* Block duration for non-registered users = 1 week
::* Block duration for registered users = indefinite
::* Disallow and tagging disabled
::Thankyou. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 10:24, 9 May 2026 (UTC)

== Urgent! error message This action has been automatically identified as potentially harmful, and therefore disallowed ==

While submitting the post this error was coming &quot;This action has been automatically identified as potentially harmful, and therefore disallowed. If you believe your action was constructive, please inform an administrator of what you were trying to do. A brief description of the abuse rule which your action matched is: New User Created Page with External Link&quot; How to resolve it?

Here is the content:

{{note|marketing material removed}}

[[User:EasyshikshaMarketing|EasyshikshaMarketing]] ([[User talk:EasyshikshaMarketing|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/EasyshikshaMarketing|contribs]]) 05:14, 17 April 2026 (UTC)
: That's because Wikiversity doesn't accept advertising. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 05:20, 17 April 2026 (UTC)
::So this is fine
::'''Online Internship and Digital Learning for Students'''
::Online learning has become an important part of modern education. With the help of the internet and digital tools, students can now study, practice, and gain experience without being physically present in a classroom. One key part of this system is the online internship, which helps students learn real-world skills along with their studies.
::An online internship allows students to work on tasks and projects through digital platforms. This makes learning more practical and useful, especially for those who want to understand how real work environments function.
::'''Background'''
::The concept of online learning developed from distance education, where students learned from remote locations. Over time, with the growth of digital technology, learning has become more interactive and flexible.
::The introduction of the online internship has added another important layer to digital education. It combines theoretical learning with practical experience, helping students prepare for future careers.
::During global events such as the COVID-19 pandemic, online education and online internship programs became essential. They helped students continue learning and gaining experience despite restrictions on physical movement.
::'''Importance of Online Internship'''
::An online internship plays an important role in student development. It helps bridge the gap between academic knowledge and practical skills.
::'''Some key points include:'''
::Students understand how real work is done
::They develop basic professional skills
::It supports career readiness
::It allows learning without location limits
::By participating in an online internship, students can improve their confidence and gain early exposure to different fields.
::'''Features of Online Internship-Based Learning'''
::Modern education platforms often include online internship opportunities as part of their learning system. These usually offer:
::Flexible schedules for students
::Access to learning from home
::Beginner-friendly tasks and projects
::A combination of theory and practice
::Such features make online internship programs suitable for a wide range of learners, including beginners.
::'''Learning Tasks'''
::Explore how online internship programs support student learning in digital environments.
::Identify how students can gain practical experience through an online internship
::Analyze the role of flexible learning in improving student engagement
::Understand how online education and internships work together
::'''References'''
::[https://ijpsl.in/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/E-Learning_Hanaaya-Navaneeth.pdf The Past, Present and Future of E-Learning: Hanaaya Varyani and Navaneeth M S]
::[https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/9788102 Current Trends and Future Perspectives of e-Learning in India]
::'''See Also'''
::[https://easyshiksha.com/online_courses/internship Online Internship]
::[https://easyshiksha.com/online_courses/ Online Courses]
::[https://easyshiksha.com/online_courses/kids-learning Kids Learning]
::[https://easyshiksha.com/career_helper/ Career Guidance] [[User:EasyshikshaMarketing|EasyshikshaMarketing]] ([[User talk:EasyshikshaMarketing|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/EasyshikshaMarketing|contribs]]) 05:27, 17 April 2026 (UTC)
:::@[[User:EasyshikshaMarketing|EasyshikshaMarketing]] Wikiversity is a resource for education, or a space for education. However, your intention to link to another website is obvious, and such content does not belong here, as it contradicts the purpose of Wikiversity. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 11:38, 17 April 2026 (UTC)

==AI-generated images==
Seeking your advice.

Myself and students use some AI-generated images in the [[Motivation and emotion]] project.

[[User:Dronebogus]] has been removing some of these images from Wikiversity pages and nominating them for deletion at Commons. As a result, some have been deleted and some have been kept.

Dronebogus has made some useful edits and image suggestions for [[Motivation and emotion]] which I've appreciated and  incorporated. However, there are other edits to remove an AI image by Dronebogus that I've reverted where I think the image is more educational than no image or an alternative image suggested by Dronebogus.

There are a couple of pages where Dronebogus has reverted my reversion, so we are at risk of edit warring. We have briefly discussed and warned each other on our user talk pages, but it seems to come down to a difference in perception about the educational usefulness of the AI images.

So, I'm asking here for others to please review the recent edit histories for these pages:
* [[Motivation and emotion/Lectures/Brain and physiological needs]]
* [[Motivation and emotion/Book/2025/Stockholm syndrome emotion]]

and let us know what you think about the AI image suitability vs. using no image or alternative images suggested by Dronebogus.

Sincerely, James -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 11:45, 26 April 2026 (UTC)

:I think Jtneill needs to try harder to find non-AI alternatives both on Commons and the web. I’m not reiterating the well known problems with generative AI— you can read about those on Wikipedia and the broader Internet. Needless to say it’s kind of just inherently toxic. If you use it, it should be the last resort of last resorts. Just my stance, which I consider perfectly valid and reasonable. [[User:Dronebogus|Dronebogus]] ([[User talk:Dronebogus|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dronebogus|contribs]]) 04:10, 27 April 2026 (UTC)

== Request for Page Creation Approval - Research on Dr. Ian Stevenson ==


'''Hello Administrators,'''

I am a digital archivist and researcher attempting to create an educational page regarding Dr. Ian Stevenson's scientific work, specifically titled &quot;Where Reincarnation and Biology Intersect&quot; and its official Vietnamese edition.

My edits are purely constructive, aimed at integrating local research context with global structured data (including '''Wikidata Q139548587'''). The automated filter is currently preventing publication due to &quot;new user external link limits.&quot;

I have ensured that all citations, references, and images (sourced from Wikimedia Commons) are strictly academic and non-promotional. Could you please review my contributions and consider whitelisting my account or approving this specific page creation?

Thank you for your assistance in preserving this research '''legacy''' within the open knowledge ecosystem.

'''Best regards,''' [[User:Ian Stevenson777|Ian Stevenson777]] ([[User talk:Ian Stevenson777|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Ian Stevenson777|contribs]]) 07:26, 28 April 2026 (UTC)
: The page title should probably be in English, as this is English Wikiversity. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 14:19, 28 April 2026 (UTC)
:@[[User:Ian Stevenson777|Ian Stevenson777]] I looked at the text and it seems to me that it is informative, but the user cannot learn anything from it because they would have to buy the book. In this regard, it seems to me that it is enough [[:w:Where Reincarnation and Biology Intersect|to have that article on Wikipedia]] and there is no need to duplicate it here on Wikiversity. If you are particularly interested with its Vietnamese translation, I would focus on Vietnamese Wikipedia, but it seems to me, that the article there [https://vi.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=N%C6%A1i_lu%C3%A2n_h%E1%BB%93i_v%C3%A0_sinh_h%E1%BB%8Dc_giao_nhau&amp;oldid=75029095 have some problems at the moment]. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 12:51, 5 May 2026 (UTC)

== Call for custodians and bureaucrats ==

Can I encourage currently active [[Wikiversity:Curators|curators]] to consider putting themselves forward for [[Wikiversity:Custodianship|custodianship]] and/or [[Wikiversity:Bureaucrat|bureaucratship]]. We have a productive, capable group of [[Wikiversity:Staff|staff]] at the moment who should probably have more rights to better support the project and we are light on for active custodians and bureaucrats. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 11:34, 9 May 2026 (UTC)
: I'm willing to do so. [[User:Codename Noreste|Codename Noreste]] ([[User talk:Codename Noreste|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Codename Noreste|contribs]]) 11:48, 9 May 2026 (UTC)

== Interface administrator flag request ==

@[[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]], @[[User:Mu301|Mu301]] I am requesting IA flag to delete [[MediaWiki:Gadget-WikiSign.js]]. It was requested for deletion by [[User:Sophivorus|a trusted user]] and I think it can be deleted. Once I delete it, I will notify you and you can remove the flag. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 08:24, 10 May 2026 (UTC)

:Can you enable two-factor authentication? 
:Policy: [[Wikiversity:Interface administrators]] -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 10:27, 10 May 2026 (UTC)</text>
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| style=&quot;width:15%; padding: 0 0 10px 0;&quot; | [[File:WikiProject Brazil assessment icon.svg|68px|link=Motivation and emotion/Assessment]]
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| style=&quot;padding: 0 0 10px 0;&quot; | [[/Lectures|Lectures]]
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| style=&quot;padding: 0 0 20px 0;&quot; | [[File:Uc-logo.png|68px|link=https://unicanberra.instructure.com/courses/17386]]
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  <page>
    <title>Mohr's circle</title>
    <ns>0</ns>
    <id>96831</id>
    <revision>
      <id>2808028</id>
      <parentid>2478062</parentid>
      <timestamp>2026-05-09T12:17:58Z</timestamp>
      <contributor>
        <username>~2026-28012-73</username>
        <id>3071277</id>
      </contributor>
      <comment>/* External Links */</comment>
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      <format>text/x-wiki</format>
      <text bytes="7788" sha1="gepsncx9h41we0h507p6lyx8zji66go" xml:space="preserve">This article is part of the [[solid mechanics]] course, aimed at engineering students. Please leave feedback in the discussion section above.

'''Introduction'''

How would you break a metal rod if you could only use your hands?

'''1.''' Pull it apart or compress it (not usually the easiest way)

'''2.''' Twist it 

'''3.''' Bend it 

Each of these methods induce stress into the rod in a different way. Mohr's circle helps analyse this. For now, only the first two ways will be analysed.


'''1.Tension/compression: '''

Below is a diagram of a rod with a circular cross-section that is subjected to a tensile force at either end.(When you pull the rod apart you are exerting a tensile force). Let us look at a square element at the surface of the rod:


[[File:Diag1.JPG]]

How do you imagine the square element would react to the tensile force?

The force will 'stretch' the rod and the square element, as shown below:


[[File:Mohr diag2.JPG]]


Therefore the force applied at either end has produced a tensile stress, &lt;big&gt;'''&lt;math&gt;\sigma_x&lt;/math&gt;'''&lt;/big&gt;, on the element, as shown below:


[[File:Mohr_diag3.JPG‎ ]]


where: &lt;math&gt;\sigma_x = \frac{F}{A} &lt;/math&gt;


Similarly, a Compressive force on the rod would induce a compressive stress on the square element, as shown below:

[[File:Mohr30.PNG]]

'''2. Torsion '''

In this case, the rod is subjected to a torque (twisting force) at either end:


[[File:Mohr diag5.JPG]]

How do you imagine the element would stretch this time?

Answer: The left side of the square element would stretch upwards, the right side would stretch downwards, as shown below. The stress induced by this shearing motion is called shear stress. It's symbol is, &lt;big&gt;'''&lt;math&gt;\tau&lt;/math&gt;'''&lt;/big&gt;. It is shown on the square element below:


[[File:Mohr diag7.JPG]]

Although it may be more difficult to visualize, there is also shear stress on the horizontal edges of the square element. The square element is drawn as follows:

[[File:Mohr diag8.JPG]]

If the torque was applied in the opposite direction, the shear stress on the element would look like this:

[[File:Mohr diag19.JPG]]

calculate shear stress using:
&lt;math&gt;\tau = \frac{Tr}{J}&lt;/math&gt;

where:

T = Torque 

r = Radius of the rod 

J = polar moment of area. For a rod with a circular cross-section : &lt;math&gt;J= \frac{\pi r^4}{2}&lt;/math&gt;


'''Tensile Force and Torque'''

If there is both a tensile force and torque applied at either end, you superimpose the two solutions and the square element would look like this:

[[File:Mohr diag9.JPG]]


'''The idea behind Mohr's circle - It's not essential that you read this'''

Imagine you rotated the square element by &lt;math&gt;\theta&lt;/math&gt; degree as shown below. 

[[File:Mohr diag10.JPG]]


Take &lt;math&gt;\theta&lt;/math&gt; to be 45 degrees. How do you imagine the element would react to the torque in this case? This one is more difficult to imagine. It would stretch as shown below:

[[File:Mohr diag11.JPG]]

Thus, you would draw the stresses on the element like so:

[[File:Mohr diag12.JPG]]

Note that there is no shear stress acting on the element at this orientation. When there is no shear stress acting on the element, the element is called the &quot;principal element&quot;, and the 2 stresses on the element &lt;math&gt;\sigma_1&lt;/math&gt; and &lt;math&gt;\sigma_2&lt;/math&gt; are known as the principal stresses. 

The objective of the Mohr's circle method is to find the orientation of the principal element (i.e.&lt;math&gt;\theta&lt;/math&gt;, which for this simple case was 45 degrees), and find the values of &lt;math&gt;\sigma_1&lt;/math&gt; and &lt;math&gt;\sigma_2&lt;/math&gt;. 


'''Finally - The method of Mohr's Circle'''

Consider a square element that experiences the following stresses:

[[File:Mohr diag14.JPG]]

(&lt;math&gt;\sigma_y&lt;/math&gt; = 0, in the examples previously shown )


At A:

&lt;math&gt;\sigma&lt;/math&gt; = &lt;math&gt;\sigma_y&lt;/math&gt;

&lt;math&gt;\tau&lt;/math&gt; = &lt;math&gt;-\tau_1&lt;/math&gt;.

We take the shear stress as negative, because the shear stress at surface A tries to rotate the square element in an anticlockwise direction (about the centre of the element). This is the general convention used. 

At B:

&lt;math&gt;\sigma&lt;/math&gt; = &lt;math&gt;\sigma_x&lt;/math&gt; 

&lt;math&gt;\tau&lt;/math&gt; = &lt;math&gt;+\tau_1&lt;/math&gt; (it causes a clockwise rotation - hence, it is positive)


Plot points A and B as shown below and draw a straight line across them:

[[File:Mohr diag15.JPG]]

Now draw a circle with a centre '''C''' and radius '''R''', such that circle passes through points A and B as shown below:


[[File:Mohr diag17.JPG]]


As you can see from the diagram, C is the midpoint of A and B, hence its co-ordinate is calculated as: C = &lt;math&gt;\frac{\sigma_x+ \sigma_y}{2}&lt;/math&gt;

Observe the right angled triangle BC&lt;math&gt;\sigma_x&lt;/math&gt;. Using Pythagoras' theorem, R can be calculated:
&lt;math&gt;R^2&lt;/math&gt; =  &lt;math&gt;(\sigma_x -C)^2&lt;/math&gt;  + &lt;math&gt;\tau_1^2&lt;/math&gt;

Also, draw an angle of 2&lt;math&gt;\theta&lt;/math&gt;, going from the line AB to the &lt;math&gt;\sigma_x&lt;/math&gt; axis.
Notice that in this case, this is a clockwise angle.

&lt;math&gt;\theta&lt;/math&gt; can be calculated through &lt;math&gt;\tan(2\theta) = \frac{\tau_1}{\sigma_x - C}&lt;/math&gt;


Finally, the principal stresses &lt;math&gt; \sigma_1&lt;/math&gt; and &lt;math&gt;\sigma_2&lt;/math&gt; occur where the circle meets the &lt;math&gt;\sigma&lt;/math&gt; -axis. (Notice that these points have zero shear stress.)

From the diagram:

&lt;math&gt;\sigma_1&lt;/math&gt; = C + R

&lt;math&gt;\sigma_2&lt;/math&gt; = C - R


Finally, to transform into the coordinate system of the principal axes, rotate the original square element by &lt;math&gt;\theta&lt;/math&gt; degrees clockwise (because you draw 2&lt;math&gt;\theta&lt;/math&gt; as a clockwise angle in the above diagram):

[[File:Mohr diag18.svg|200px]] 

==Example ==

A rod is subjected to a tensile force and a torque, as shown below. Use Mohr's circle to work out the principal stresses and draw the rotated square element. (I recommend you try this first before seeing the answer)

[[File:Mohr23.JPG]] 

F = 2000N 

T = 10 Nm  

r = 0.005m 
 
A (cross sectional area) = &lt;math&gt;\pi r^2 = 8 \cdot 10^{-5} &lt;/math&gt; m&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt;

&lt;math&gt;\sigma_x = \frac{F}{A}= &lt;/math&gt;  26,000,000 Pa = '''26 MPa''' 

&lt;math&gt;J= \frac{\pi r^4}{2}  = 9.8 \cdot 10^{-10} &lt;/math&gt;

&lt;math&gt;\tau = \frac{T\cdot r}{J} = &lt;/math&gt;   '''51 MPa'''

[[File:Mohr22.svg]] 
 
At A:

&lt;math&gt;\sigma = 0\,&lt;/math&gt;

&lt;math&gt;\tau = 51\,&lt;/math&gt;


At B:

&lt;math&gt;\sigma = 26\,&lt;/math&gt;

&lt;math&gt;\tau = -51\,&lt;/math&gt;

[[File:Mohr24.JPG]] 

&lt;math&gt; C = \frac{0 + 26}{2} = 13&lt;/math&gt;

[[File:Mohr25.JPG]] 

&lt;math&gt;R^2 = (26 - 13)^2 + 51^2\;\;\Rightarrow \; R = 53&lt;/math&gt;


&lt;math&gt;\sigma_1 = 13 + 53 = 66 \; \mathrm{MPa}\,&lt;/math&gt;

&lt;math&gt;\sigma_2 = 13 - 53 = -40 \;\mathrm{MPa}\,&lt;/math&gt;


&lt;math&gt;\tan(2\theta) = \frac{51}{26 - 13} \;\;\Rightarrow \; \theta=38^{\circ}\,&lt;/math&gt;


[[File:Mohr26.JPG]] 


Notice that 66MPa is drawn as a tensile stress (as &lt;math&gt;\sigma_1\, &lt;/math&gt; is positive), and 40MPa as a compressive stress (as &lt;math&gt;\sigma_2\, &lt;/math&gt; is negative)


That's it! If you have found this article useful, please comment in the discussion section (at the top of the page), as this will help me decide whether to write more articles like this. Also please comment if there are other topics you want covered, or you would like something in this article to be written in more detail.

[[solid mechanics|Back to the solid mechanics course]]

[[Category:Mechanics]]
==External Links==
* [https://calculatorwebtools.com/engineering-calculators/strength-of-material/mohrs-circle-calculator/ Mohr's Circle Calculator Online]
* [https://mechanicalc.com/calculators/mohrs-circle/ Mohr's Circle Calculator]
* [http://bendingmomentdiagram.com/free-calculator/mohrs-circle-calculator/ Online Mohr's Circle Calculator.]
* [https://civilengineer.webinfolist.com/mech/stress-transformation.htm Free Online Calculator for calculation of stresses on inclined plane and princpal stresses.]</text>
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  </page>
  <page>
    <title>Shear Force and Bending Moment Diagrams</title>
    <ns>0</ns>
    <id>99125</id>
    <revision>
      <id>2808029</id>
      <parentid>2708715</parentid>
      <timestamp>2026-05-09T12:21:37Z</timestamp>
      <contributor>
        <username>~2026-28012-73</username>
        <id>3071277</id>
      </contributor>
      <comment>/* External Links */</comment>
      <origin>2808029</origin>
      <model>wikitext</model>
      <format>text/x-wiki</format>
      <text bytes="12541" sha1="4ynovwi69sddcjgcxe2moaykat3p9s8" xml:space="preserve">This article is part of the [[solid mechanics]] course, aimed at engineering students. Please leave feedback in the discussion section above.

== What is shear force? ==
Below a force of 10N is exerted at point A on a beam. This is an external force. However because the beam is a rigid structure, the force will be internally transferred all along the beam. This internal force is known as shear force. The shear force between point A and B is usually plotted on a shear force diagram. As the shear force is 10N all along the beam, the plot is just a straight line, in this example.

[[File:Shear2.PNG]]

The idea of shear force might seem odd, maybe this example will help clarify. Imagine pushing an object along a kitchen table, with a 10N force. Even though you're applying the force only at one point on the object, it's not just that point of the object that moves forward. The whole object moves forward, which tells you that the force must have transferred all along the object, such that every atom of the object is experiencing this 10N force.

Please note that this is not the full explanation of what shear force actually is. 

==Basic shear diagram==

What if there is more than one force, as shown in the diagram below, what would the shear force diagram look like then? 

[[File:Shear5.PNG]]

The way you go about this is by figuring out the shear force at points A,B,C,E (as there is an external force acting at these points). The way you work out the shear force at any point, is by covering (either with your hand or a piece of paper), everything to right of that point, and simply adding up the external forces. Then plot the point on the shear force diagram. For illustration purposes, this is done for point D:

[[File:Shear6.PNG]]

Shear force at D = 10N - 20N + 40N = 30Newtons

[[File:Shear7.PNG]]

Now, let's do this for point B. BUT - slight complication - there's a force acting at point B, are you going to include it? The answer is both yes and no. You need to take 2 measurements. Firstly put your piece of paper, so it's JUST before point B:

[[File:Shear8.PNG]]

Shear force at B = 10N

[[File:Shear9.PNG]]

Now place your paper JUST after point B:

[[File:Shear10.PNG]]

Shear force at B = 10N - 20N = -10N

[[File:Shear11.PNG]]

(B' is vertically below B)

Now, do point A, D and E, and finally join the points. your diagram should look like the one below. If you don't understand why, leave a message on the discussion section of this page (its at the top), I will elaborate on the explanation:

[[File:Shear12.PNG]]

Notice how nothing exciting happens at point D, which is why you wouldn't normally analyse the shear force at that point. For clarity, when doing these diagrams it is recommended you move you paper from left to right, and hence analyse points A,B, C, and E, in that order. You can also do this procedure covering the left side instead of the right, your diagram will be &quot;upside down&quot; though. Both diagrams are correct.

==Basic bending moment diagram==

Bending moment refers to the internal moment that causes something to bend. When you bend a ruler, even though apply the forces/moments at the ends of the ruler, bending occurs all along the ruler, which indicates that there is a bending moment acting all along the ruler. Hence bending moment is shown on a bending moment diagram. The same case from before will be used here:

[[File:Shear5.PNG]]

To work out the bending moment at any point, cover (with a piece of paper) everything to the right of that point, and take moments about that point. (I will take clockwise moments to be positive). To illustrate, I shall work out the bending moment at point C:

[[File:Shear13.PNG]]

Bending moment at C = 10Nx3m - 20Nx2m = -10Nm

(Please note that the two diagrams below should show units in &quot;Nm&quot;, not in &quot;N&quot; as it is currently showing)

[[File:Shear14.PNG]]

Notice that there's no need to work out the bending moment &quot;just before and just after&quot; point C, (as in the case for the shear force diagram). This is because the 40N force at point C exerts no moment about point C, either way. 

Repeating the procedure for points A,B and E, and joining all the points:

[[File:Shear15.PNG]]

Normally you would expect the diagram to start and end at zero, in this case it doesn't. This is my fault, and it happened because I accidentally chose my forces such that there is a moment disequilibrium. i.e. take moments about any point (without covering the right of the point), and you'll notice that the moments aren't balanced, as they should be. It also means that if you're covering the left side as opposed to the right, you will get a completely different diagram. Sorry about this...
Upon inspection, the forces are unbalanced, so it is immediately expected that the diagram will most likely not be balanced.

==Point moments==
Point moments are something that you may not have come across before. Below, a point moment of 20Nm is exerted at point C. Work out the reaction of A and D:

[[File:Shear16.PNG]]

Force equilibrium: R&lt;sub&gt;1&lt;/sub&gt; + R&lt;sub&gt;2&lt;/sub&gt; = 40

Taking moments about A (clockwise is positive): 40·2 - 20 - 6·R&lt;sub&gt;2&lt;/sub&gt; = 0

R&lt;sub&gt;1&lt;/sub&gt; = 30N , R&lt;sub&gt;2&lt;/sub&gt; = 10N

If instead you were to take moments about D you would get: - 20 - 40·4 + 6·R&lt;sub&gt;1&lt;/sub&gt; = 0

I think it's important for you to see that wherever you take moments about, the point moment is always taken as a negative (because it's a counter clockwise moment). 

So how does a point moment affect the shear force and bending moment diagrams? &lt;br&gt;
Well. It has absolutely no effect on the shear force diagram. You can just ignore point C when drawing the shear force diagram. When drawing the bending moment diagram you will need to work out the bending moment just before and just after point C:

[[File:Shear21.PNG]]

Just before: bending moment at C = 3·30 - 1·40 = 50Nm

Just after: bending moment at C = 3·30 - 1·40 - 20 = 30Nm

Then work out the bending moment at points A, B and D (no need to do before and after for these points). And plot. 

'''Cantilever beam'''

Until now, you may have only dealt with &quot;simply supported beams&quot; (like in the diagram above), where a beam is supported by 2 pivots at either end. Below is a cantilever beam, which means - a beam that rigidly attached to a wall. Just like a pivot, the wall is capable of exerting an upwards reaction force R&lt;sub&gt;1&lt;/sub&gt; on the beam. However it is also capable of exerting a point moment M&lt;sub&gt;1&lt;/sub&gt; on the beam. 
 
[[File:Shear17.PNG]]

Force equilibrium: R&lt;sub&gt;1&lt;/sub&gt; = 10N

Taking moments about A: -M&lt;sub&gt;1&lt;/sub&gt; + 10·2 = 0 → M&lt;sub&gt;1&lt;/sub&gt; = 20Nm

== Uniformly Distributed Load (UDL) ==
Below is a brick lying on a beam. The weight of the brick is uniformly distributed on the beam (shown in diagram A). The brick has a weight of 5N per meter of brick (5N/m). Since the brick is 6 meters long the total weight of the brick is 30N. This is shown in diagram B. Diagram B is a simplification of diagram A. As you will see, you will need to be able to convert a type A diagram to a type B.

[[File:Shear18.PNG]]
 
To make your life more difficult I have added an external force at point C, and a point moment to the diagram below. This is the most difficult type of question I can think of, and I will do the shear force and bending moment diagram for it, step by step.

[[File:Shear19.PNG]]

Firstly identify the key points at which you will work out the shear force and bending moment at. These will be points: A,B,C,D,E and F. 

As you would have noticed when working out the bending moment and shear force at any given point, sometimes you just work it out at the point, and sometimes you work it out just before and after. Here is a summary: When drawing a shear force diagram, if you are dealing with a point force (points A,C and F in the above diagram), work out the shear force before and after the point. Otherwise (for points B and D), just work it out right at that point. When drawing a bending moment diagram, if you are dealing with a point moment (point E), work out the bending moment before and after the point. Otherwise (for points A,B,C,D, and F), work out the bending moment at the point. 

After identifying the key points, you want to work out the values of R&lt;sub&gt;1&lt;/sub&gt; and R&lt;sub&gt;2&lt;/sub&gt;. You now need to convert to a type B diagram, as shown below. Notice the 30N force acts right in the middle between points B and D. 

[[File:Shear20.PNG]] 

Force equilibrium: R&lt;sub&gt;1&lt;/sub&gt; + R&lt;sub&gt;2&lt;/sub&gt; = 50 &lt;br&gt;
Take moments about A: 4·30 + 5·20 + 40 - 10·R&lt;sub&gt;2&lt;/sub&gt; = 0 &lt;br&gt;
R&lt;sub&gt;1&lt;/sub&gt; = 24N , R&lt;sub&gt;2&lt;/sub&gt;= 26N

Update original diagram:

[[File:Shear22.PNG]] 

=== '''Shear force diagram''' === 

'''point A:'''

[[File:Shear23.PNG]] 


'''point B:'''

[[File:Shear24.PNG]] 

Notice that the uniformly distributed load has no effect on point B. 

'''point C:'''

Just before C:

[[File:Shear25.PNG]]

Now convert to a type B diagram. Total weight of brick from point B to C = 5x4 = 20N 

[[File:Shear26.PNG]]

Shear force before C: 24 - 20 = 4N
 
[[File:Shear27.PNG]]

Shear force after C: 24 - 20 - 20 = -16N

'''point D:'''

[[File:Shear28.PNG]]

Shear force at D: 24 - 30 - 20 = -26N
 
'''point F:'''

(I have already converted to a type B diagram, below)
 
[[File:Shear29.PNG]]

Finally plot all the points on the shear force diagram and join them up:

[[File:Shear30.PNG]]

=== '''Bending moment diagram''' === 

'''Point A'''

[[File:Shear31.PNG]]

Bending moment at A: 0Nm

'''Point B'''

[[File:Shear35.PNG]] 

Bending moment at B: 24·1 = 24Nm

'''point C:'''

(I have already converted to a type B diagram, below)

[[File:Shear27.PNG]]
 
Bending moment at C: 24·5 - 20·2 = 80Nm

'''point D:'''

(I have already converted to a type B diagram, below)

[[File:Shear32.PNG]]

Bending moment at D: 24·7 - 30·3 - 20·2 = 38Nm

'''point E:'''

(I have already converted to a type B diagram, below)

[[File:Shear33.PNG]]

'''point F:'''

(I have already converted to a type B diagram, below)

[[File:Shear34.PNG]]

Bending moment at F: 24·10 - 30·6 - 20·5 + 40 = 0Nm

Finally, plot the points on the bending moment diagram. Join all the points up, EXCEPT those that are under the uniformly distributed load (UDL), which are points B,C and D. As seen below, you need to draw a curve between these points. Unless requested, I will not explain why this happens. 

[[File:Shear39.PNG]]

Note: The diagram is not at all drawn to scale.

I have drawn 2 curves. One from B to C, one from C to D. Notice that each of these curves resembles some part of a negative parabola. 

[[File:Shear37.PNG]]

Rule: When drawing a bending moment diagram, under a UDL, you must connect the points with a curve. This curve must resemble some part of a negative parabola. 

Note: The convention used throughout this page is &quot;clockwise moments are taken as positive&quot;. If the convention was &quot;counter-clockwise moments are taken as positive&quot;, you would need to draw a positive parabola.

==== '''Hypothetical scenario''' ==== 

For a hypothetical question, what if points B, C and D, were plotted as shown below. Notice how I have drawn the curves for this case. 
 
[[File:Shear38.PNG]]

If you wanted to find the peak of the curve, how would you do it? Simple. On the original diagram (used at the start of the question) add an additional point (point G), centrally between point B and C. Then work out the bending moment at point G. 
 
That's it! If you have found this article useful, please comment in the discussion section (at the top of the page), as this will help me decide whether to write more articles like this. Also please comment if there are other topics you want covered, or you would like something in this article to be written more clearly.

[[solid mechanics|Back to the solid mechanics course]]

[[User:Taltastic|Taltastic]] 14:11, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

[[Category:Mechanics]]
[[Category:solid mechanics course]]

==External Links==
* [https://calculatorwebtools.com/engineering-calculators/strength-of-material/beam-calculator/ Beam Calculator]
* [https://skyciv.com/free-beam-calculator/ FREE Online Shear Force and Bending Moment Diagram (SFD &amp; BMD) Calculator.]
* [https://skyciv.com/docs/tutorials/beam-tutorials/how-to-draw-bending-moment-diagrams/ Tutorial on how to draw bending moment diagrams]
* [https://civilengineeronline.com/mech/bmcalc.htm Free Calculator for Calculations of shear force and bending moment]
* [https://solveredu.com/en/post/internal-force-diagrams/ Free tutorial about internal forces diagrams]</text>
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    <title>Virtues/Fidelity</title>
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      <comment>Updates links</comment>
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      <text bytes="3486" sha1="lwalp6lnfk9bec7hlvgx098ibg4c3lk" xml:space="preserve">==Introduction:==
{{TOC right | limit|limit=1}}
Fidelity is the virtue of ''consistency''.  It is the basis for reliable thought, reason, morality, trust, and loyalty. It allows us to predict future behavior based on the history of past behavior. 

Fidelity is most valuable when it is applied to the most worthy ideas, deeds, principles, or affiliations.

==The Virtue of Fidelity==
Fidelity is neither ''fickleness''—an arbitrary and unwarranted change—nor ''obstinacy''—unfounded persistence or stubbornness. It is a consistency of thought, reason, morality, and loyalty that persists until some more profound truth, greater good, or more worthy affiliation becomes clear.&lt;ref&gt; {{cite book |title=A Small Treatise on the Great Virtues: The Uses of Philosophy in Everyday Life |last=Comte-Sponville |first=André  |year=2002 |publisher=Picador |isbn=978-0805045567 |pages=368}} &lt;/ref&gt;

Fidelity provides a consistency essential for coherent thinking, reliable behavior, and durable affiliations.

==Everyday Fidelity==
# '''Do what you say''' – Keep your promises. Act reliably. Be impeccable with your word. Trustworthiness is fidelity to your word. [[Earning Trust|Be trustworthy]].
# '''Abstain from [[w:Hypocrisy|hypocrisy]]''' – Align your actions with your words. Be consistent. Strive for [[Toward congruence|congruence]] in what you [[Forming beliefs|believe]], what you say, and what you do. 
# '''Be consistent''' – What you state today as your beliefs should be consistent with what you professed yesterday and what you plan to profess tomorrow.  Change those beliefs, and your representations of those beliefs, only when you come to a new understanding that is more consistent with reality.
# '''Be true to those who matter most''' – Keep your marriage vows, and maintain strong relationships with the most worthy people and organizations in your life. As a couple, seek love and longevity in your relationship.
# '''Seek truth'''—since truth corresponds to reality, and [[Knowing How You Know#The Unity of Knowledge|reality is self-consistent]], seeking truth aligns your thinking with reality and increases your fidelity with the real world.  Reason is fidelity to truth.
# '''Seek insight'''—close the gap between appearances and reality. Become consistent with reality. 
# [[Knowing How You Know|'''Know how you know''']]—Adopt and apply a robust theory of knowledge. Your [[Knowing How You Know#What is a Theory of Knowledge?|theory of knowledge]] is how you decide what to believe. As you mature and learn more your beliefs will necessarily change. A robust theory of knowledge will help your beliefs converge steadily toward reality.

==Assignment==
'''Part 1:''' Notice your adherence to fidelity, everyday, as described above. Notice when you are inconsistent. What may be causing that inconsistency? What can you do to increase your fidelity?

'''Part 2:''' Additional assignments relevant to fidelity are described in the [[What_Matters/Integrity|integrity module]] of the course on What Matters. Complete those assignments.

==References==
&lt;references/&gt;
==Further Reading==
Students interested in learning more about the virtues of fidelity may be interested in the following materials:
* {{cite book |title=The Four Agreements: A Practical Guide to Personal Freedom |last=Ruiz |first=Don Miguel |authorlink=w:Miguel_%C3%81ngel_Ruiz  |year=1997 |publisher=Amber-Allen Publishing |isbn=978-1878424310  |pages=138}}
{{Virtues}}

{{CourseCat}}</text>
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      <text bytes="962" sha1="dc4gk9tn2cz8br4hdcdqptqe7shtv16" xml:space="preserve">==Instructions==
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In a [[wiki]], trust arises from good editing of webpages and &quot;good editing&quot; is what advances the project. If you have a record of good editing then you are likely to be trusted and be granted the tools to protect pages from vandalism and block vandals and delete useless pages. Having those tools really just means you have to do more work - dull and boring work - for the community.

Please place candidate requests or nominations on a ''subpage'' and ''[[Help:Transclusion|transclude]]'' it here.

[[Category:Nominations for Custodianship|*]]</text>
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  <page>
    <title>Bengali Language/Verbs</title>
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      <text bytes="13593" sha1="r20xvnjw0wb7eje48lqro20ffpdo3kr" xml:space="preserve">Bengali verbs can be conjugated according to three tenses : Present, Past and Future

Within each tense, verbs can be conjugated differently according to their aspects : simple, progressive, perfect, habitual, near, distant, etc.  

==Verb conjugation in Present tense==
===First category of conjugation : Verbs ending in ''consonant+-aa''===
An example verb of this category is : 

বলা  &lt;br&gt;
baw•laa &lt;br&gt;
to speak 

This is the dictionary form or the infinitive form of the verb.

At the end of this verb we have '''লা laa''', which matches the pattern '''consonant + -aa'''

To conjugate this kind of verb in the present tense, you 

1. remove the -aa in the end.

2. add the following endings depending on Person. (Who is doing the action matters).

3. Note that Number (Singular or Plural) of the Subject doesn't matter. (How many persons are doing the action has no influence on the verb ending.) 

{| class=&quot;wikitable&quot;
|-
|   || colspan = &quot;2&quot; | '''Singular'''  || colspan = &quot;2&quot; |  '''Plural'''
|-
| 1st Person || আমি &lt;br&gt; aa•mi&lt;br&gt; I  || '''-i''' || আমরা &lt;br&gt; aam•raa&lt;br&gt; We  || '''-i'''
|-
| 2nd Person &lt;br&gt; (informal) || তুমি &lt;br&gt;tu•mi&lt;br&gt; You || '''-o'''  || তোমরা &lt;br&gt;tom•raa &lt;br&gt;You  || '''-o''' 
|-
| 2nd Person &lt;br&gt; (familiar / &lt;br&gt;derogatory) || তুই &lt;br&gt;tui&lt;br&gt; You  ||  '''-ish''' || তোরা &lt;br&gt;to•ra&lt;br&gt; You  || '''-ish''' 
|-
| 2nd Person &lt;br&gt; (formal) || আপনি&lt;br&gt;aap•ni &lt;br&gt;You  || '''-en''' || আপনারা &lt;br&gt;aap•naa•raa&lt;br&gt;You  || '''-en''' 
|-
| 3rd Person &lt;br&gt; (informal)   ||  সে &lt;br&gt;she&lt;br&gt; He/She  ||  '''-e'''  || তারা &lt;br&gt;taa•raa&lt;br&gt;They  || '''-e'''
|-
| 3rd Person &lt;br&gt; (formal) || তিনি &lt;br&gt;ti•ni&lt;br&gt;He/She  || '''-en'''  || তাঁরা &lt;br&gt;taa(n)•raa&lt;br&gt; They  || '''-en'''
|}


{| class=&quot;wikitable&quot;
|-
|  colspan = &quot;5&quot; | {{center|'''বলা''' &lt;br&gt; bawlaa &lt;br&gt;to speak/say}}
|-
|   || colspan = &quot;2&quot; | '''Singular'''  || colspan = &quot;2&quot; |  '''Plural'''
|-
| 1st Person || আমি &lt;br&gt; aa•mi&lt;br&gt; I  || বলি &lt;br&gt; bo•l'''i'''&lt;br&gt; speak || আমরা &lt;br&gt; aam•raa&lt;br&gt; We  || বলি &lt;br&gt;bo•l'''i'''&lt;br&gt; speak 
|-
| 2nd Person &lt;br&gt; (informal) || তুমি &lt;br&gt;tu•mi&lt;br&gt; You || বল &lt;br&gt; baw•l'''o''' &lt;br&gt;speak || তোমরা &lt;br&gt;tom•raa &lt;br&gt;You  || বল &lt;br&gt; baw•l'''o'''&lt;br&gt; speak  
|-
| 2nd Person &lt;br&gt; (familiar / &lt;br&gt;derogatory) || তুই &lt;br&gt;tui&lt;br&gt; You  ||  বলিস&lt;br&gt;bo•l'''ish'''&lt;br&gt; speak  || তোরা &lt;br&gt;to•ra&lt;br&gt; You  || বলিস&lt;br&gt;bo•l'''ish''' &lt;br&gt;speak
|-
| 2nd Person &lt;br&gt; (formal) || আপনি&lt;br&gt;aap•ni &lt;br&gt;You  || বলেন  &lt;br&gt;baw•l'''en'''&lt;br&gt; speak|| আপনারা &lt;br&gt;aap•naa•raa&lt;br&gt;You  || বলেন&lt;br&gt;baw•l'''en'''&lt;br&gt;speak 
|-
| 3rd Person &lt;br&gt; (informal)   ||  সে &lt;br&gt;She&lt;br&gt; He/She  ||  বলে&lt;br&gt;baw•l'''e'''&lt;br&gt; speaks  || তারা &lt;br&gt;taa•raa&lt;br&gt;They  || বলে&lt;br&gt;baw•l'''''e'''''&lt;br&gt; speak 
|-
| 3rd Person &lt;br&gt; (formal) || তিনি &lt;br&gt;ti•ni&lt;br&gt;He/She  || বলেন &lt;br&gt;baw•l'''en'''&lt;br&gt;speaks || তাঁরা &lt;br&gt;taa(n)•raa&lt;br&gt; They  || বলেন&lt;br&gt;baw•l'''en'''&lt;br&gt; speak 
|}

===progressive/continuous present===
This tense describes a present action which is still going on at this moment and not finished.

===perfect present===
This tense describes an action which was completed in a near past.

===habitual present===
This tense describes an action which is a currently existing habit.

==Verb conjugation in Past tense==
Verbs in the past tense can differ according to aspects (whether the action was simply completed, whether the action was in the process of being completed, whether the action happened in the distant past, whether the action happened before another past action, whether the past action was habitual, etc.)
===Simple past===
Verb in simple past denotes a simple one-time completion of a past action

To conjugate a verb in the simple past tense:

1. from the infinitive form, remove the -aa in the end. 

2. add the following endings depending on Person. (Who is doing the action matters).

3. Note that Number (Singular or Plural) of the Subject doesn't matter. (How many persons are doing the action has no influence on the verb ending.) 

{| class=&quot;wikitable&quot;
|-
|   || colspan = &quot;2&quot; | '''Singular'''  || colspan = &quot;2&quot; |  '''Plural'''
|-
| 1st Person || আমি &lt;br&gt; aa•mi&lt;br&gt; I  || '''-lam''' || আমরা &lt;br&gt; aam•raa&lt;br&gt; We  || '''-lam'''
|-
| 2nd Person &lt;br&gt; (informal) || তুমি &lt;br&gt;tu•mi&lt;br&gt; You || '''-le'''  || তোমরা &lt;br&gt;tom•raa &lt;br&gt;You  || '''-le''' 
|-
| 2nd Person &lt;br&gt; (familiar / &lt;br&gt;derogatory) || তুই &lt;br&gt;tui&lt;br&gt; You  ||  '''-li''' || তোরা &lt;br&gt;to•ra&lt;br&gt; You  || '''-li''' 
|-
| 2nd Person &lt;br&gt; (formal) || আপনি&lt;br&gt;aap•ni &lt;br&gt;You  || '''-len''' || আপনারা &lt;br&gt;aap•naa•raa&lt;br&gt;You  || '''-len''' 
|-
| 3rd Person &lt;br&gt; (informal)   ||  সে &lt;br&gt;she&lt;br&gt; He/She  ||  '''-lo'''  || তারা &lt;br&gt;taa•raa&lt;br&gt;They  || '''-lo'''
|-
| 3rd Person &lt;br&gt; (formal) || তিনি &lt;br&gt;ti•ni&lt;br&gt;He/She  || '''-len'''  || তাঁরা &lt;br&gt;taa(n)•raa&lt;br&gt; They  || '''-len'''
|}

===Progressive/Incomplete past===
To conjugate the verb in the progressive past tense, just add -chhi- before the simple past endings
{| class=&quot;wikitable&quot;
|-
|   || colspan = &quot;2&quot; | '''Singular'''  || colspan = &quot;2&quot; |  '''Plural'''
|-
| 1st Person || আমি &lt;br&gt; aa•mi&lt;br&gt; I  || '''-chhilam''' || আমরা &lt;br&gt; aam•raa&lt;br&gt; We  || '''-chhilam'''
|-
| 2nd Person &lt;br&gt; (informal) || তুমি &lt;br&gt;tu•mi&lt;br&gt; You || '''-chhile'''  || তোমরা &lt;br&gt;tom•raa &lt;br&gt;You  || '''-chhile''' 
|-
| 2nd Person &lt;br&gt; (familiar / &lt;br&gt;derogatory) || তুই &lt;br&gt;tui&lt;br&gt; You  ||  '''-chhili''' || তোরা &lt;br&gt;to•ra&lt;br&gt; You  || '''-chhili''' 
|-
| 2nd Person &lt;br&gt; (formal) || আপনি&lt;br&gt;aap•ni &lt;br&gt;You  || '''-chhilen''' || আপনারা &lt;br&gt;aap•naa•raa&lt;br&gt;You  || '''-chhilen''' 
|-
| 3rd Person &lt;br&gt; (informal)   ||  সে &lt;br&gt;she&lt;br&gt; He/She  ||  '''-chhilo'''  || তারা &lt;br&gt;taa•raa&lt;br&gt;They  || '''-chhilo'''
|-
| 3rd Person &lt;br&gt; (formal) || তিনি &lt;br&gt;ti•ni&lt;br&gt;He/She  || '''-chhilen'''  || তাঁরা &lt;br&gt;taa(n)•raa&lt;br&gt; They  || '''-chhilen'''
|}

===Distant past===
To conjugate the verb in the distant past tense, just add -e- before the progressive past endings
{| class=&quot;wikitable&quot;
|-
|   || colspan = &quot;2&quot; | '''Singular'''  || colspan = &quot;2&quot; |  '''Plural'''
|-
| 1st Person || আমি &lt;br&gt; aa•mi&lt;br&gt; I  || '''-echhilam''' || আমরা &lt;br&gt; aam•raa&lt;br&gt; We  || '''-echhilam'''
|-
| 2nd Person &lt;br&gt; (informal) || তুমি &lt;br&gt;tu•mi&lt;br&gt; You || '''-echhile'''  || তোমরা &lt;br&gt;tom•raa &lt;br&gt;You  || '''-echhile''' 
|-
| 2nd Person &lt;br&gt; (familiar / &lt;br&gt;derogatory) || তুই &lt;br&gt;tui&lt;br&gt; You  ||  '''-echhili''' || তোরা &lt;br&gt;to•ra&lt;br&gt; You  || '''-echhili''' 
|-
| 2nd Person &lt;br&gt; (formal) || আপনি&lt;br&gt;aap•ni &lt;br&gt;You  || '''-echhilen''' || আপনারা &lt;br&gt;aap•naa•raa&lt;br&gt;You  || '''-echhilen''' 
|-
| 3rd Person &lt;br&gt; (informal)   ||  সে &lt;br&gt;she&lt;br&gt; He/She  ||  '''-echhilo'''  || তারা &lt;br&gt;taa•raa&lt;br&gt;They  || '''-echhilo'''
|-
| 3rd Person &lt;br&gt; (formal) || তিনি &lt;br&gt;ti•ni&lt;br&gt;He/She  || '''-echhilen'''  || তাঁরা &lt;br&gt;taa(n)•raa&lt;br&gt; They  || '''-echhilen'''
|}

===Perfect past===
To conjugate the verb in the perfect past tense, you need to do the following : 

1. create the appropriate perfect aspect stem. See [[/Perfect Aspect/]]

2. conjugate the perfect aspect stem in the distant past.


{| class=&quot;wikitable&quot;
|-
|   || colspan = &quot;2&quot; | '''Singular'''  || colspan = &quot;2&quot; |  '''Plural'''
|-
| 1st Person || আমি &lt;br&gt; aa•mi&lt;br&gt; I  || perfect aspect stem + '''-echhilam''' || আমরা &lt;br&gt; aam•raa&lt;br&gt; We  || perfect aspect stem + '''-echhilam'''
|-
| 2nd Person &lt;br&gt; (informal) || তুমি &lt;br&gt;tu•mi&lt;br&gt; You || perfect aspect stem + '''-echhile'''  || তোমরা &lt;br&gt;tom•raa &lt;br&gt;You  || perfect aspect stem + '''-echhile''' 
|-
| 2nd Person &lt;br&gt; (familiar / &lt;br&gt;derogatory) || তুই &lt;br&gt;tui&lt;br&gt; You  ||  perfect aspect stem + '''-echhili''' || তোরা &lt;br&gt;to•ra&lt;br&gt; You  || perfect aspect stem + '''-echhili''' 
|-
| 2nd Person &lt;br&gt; (formal) || আপনি&lt;br&gt;aap•ni &lt;br&gt;You  || perfect aspect stem + '''-echhilen''' || আপনারা &lt;br&gt;aap•naa•raa&lt;br&gt;You  || perfect aspect stem + '''-echhilen''' 
|-
| 3rd Person &lt;br&gt; (informal)   ||  সে &lt;br&gt;she&lt;br&gt; He/She  ||  perfect aspect stem + '''-echhilo'''  || তারা &lt;br&gt;taa•raa&lt;br&gt;They  || perfect aspect stem + '''-echhilo'''
|-
| 3rd Person &lt;br&gt; (formal) || তিনি &lt;br&gt;ti•ni&lt;br&gt;He/She  || perfect aspect stem + '''-echhilen'''  || তাঁরা &lt;br&gt;taa(n)•raa&lt;br&gt; They  || perfect aspect stem + '''-echhilen'''
|}

===Habitual past===
Verb in habitual past denotes a past habit, an action that used to happen periodically over and over again.

To conjugate a verb in the habitual past tense:

1. from the infinitive form, remove the -aa in the end. 

2. add the following endings depending on Person. (Who is doing the action matters). It's almost the same as the simple past tense except that the -l- marker is replaced by the -t- marker.

3. Note that Number (Singular or Plural) of the Subject doesn't matter. (How many persons are doing the action has no influence on the verb ending.) 

{| class=&quot;wikitable&quot;
|-
|   || colspan = &quot;2&quot; | '''Singular'''  || colspan = &quot;2&quot; |  '''Plural'''
|-
| 1st Person || আমি &lt;br&gt; aa•mi&lt;br&gt; I  || '''-tam''' || আমরা &lt;br&gt; aam•raa&lt;br&gt; We  || '''-tam'''
|-
| 2nd Person &lt;br&gt; (informal) || তুমি &lt;br&gt;tu•mi&lt;br&gt; You || '''-te'''  || তোমরা &lt;br&gt;tom•raa &lt;br&gt;You  || '''-te''' 
|-
| 2nd Person &lt;br&gt; (familiar / &lt;br&gt;derogatory) || তুই &lt;br&gt;tui&lt;br&gt; You  ||  '''-tish''' || তোরা &lt;br&gt;to•ra&lt;br&gt; You  || '''-tish''' 
|-
| 2nd Person &lt;br&gt; (formal) || আপনি&lt;br&gt;aap•ni &lt;br&gt;You  || '''-ten''' || আপনারা &lt;br&gt;aap•naa•raa&lt;br&gt;You  || '''-ten''' 
|-
| 3rd Person &lt;br&gt; (informal)   ||  সে &lt;br&gt;she&lt;br&gt; He/She  ||  '''-to'''  || তারা &lt;br&gt;taa•raa&lt;br&gt;They  || '''-to'''
|-
| 3rd Person &lt;br&gt; (formal) || তিনি &lt;br&gt;ti•ni&lt;br&gt;He/She  || '''-ten'''  || তাঁরা &lt;br&gt;taa(n)•raa&lt;br&gt; They  || '''-ten'''
|}

==Verb conjugation in Future tense==
===Simple future===

{| class=&quot;wikitable&quot;
|-
| || colspan=&quot;2&quot; | '''Singular''' || colspan=&quot;2&quot; | '''Plural'''
|-
| 1st Person || আমি &lt;br&gt; aa•mi&lt;br&gt; I || '''-bo''' || আমরা &lt;br&gt; aam•raa&lt;br&gt; We || '''-bo'''
|-
| 2nd Person &lt;br&gt; (informal) || তুমি &lt;br&gt;tu•mi&lt;br&gt; You || '''-be''' || তোমরা &lt;br&gt;tom•raa &lt;br&gt;You || '''-be''' 
|-
| 2nd Person &lt;br&gt; (familiar / &lt;br&gt;derogatory) || তুই &lt;br&gt;tui&lt;br&gt; You || '''-bi''' || তোরা &lt;br&gt;to•ra&lt;br&gt; You || '''-bi''' 
|-
| 2nd Person &lt;br&gt; (formal) || আপনি&lt;br&gt;aap•ni &lt;br&gt;You || '''-ben''' || আপনারা &lt;br&gt;aap•naa•raa&lt;br&gt;You || '''-ben''' 
|-
| 3rd Person &lt;br&gt; (informal) || সে &lt;br&gt;she&lt;br&gt; He/She || '''-be''' || তারা &lt;br&gt;taa•raa&lt;br&gt;They || '''-be'''
|-
| 3rd Person &lt;br&gt; (formal) || তিনি &lt;br&gt;ti•ni&lt;br&gt;He/She || '''-ben''' || তাঁরা &lt;br&gt;taa(n)•raa&lt;br&gt; They || '''-ben'''
|}

===Progressive future===

{| class=&quot;wikitable&quot;
|-
| || colspan=&quot;2&quot; | '''Singular''' || colspan=&quot;2&quot; | '''Plural'''
|-
| 1st Person || আমি &lt;br&gt; aa•mi&lt;br&gt; I ||'''INF+ thakbo''' 

| আমরা &lt;br&gt; aam•raa&lt;br&gt; We ||'''INF+ thakbo'''

|-
| 2nd Person &lt;br&gt; (informal) || তুমি &lt;br&gt;tu•mi&lt;br&gt; You || '''INF+ thakbe''' || তোমরা &lt;br&gt;tom•raa &lt;br&gt;You || '''INF+ thakbe''' 
|-
| 2nd Person &lt;br&gt; (familiar / &lt;br&gt;derogatory) || তুই &lt;br&gt;tui&lt;br&gt; You || '''INF+ thakbi''' || তোরা &lt;br&gt;to•ra&lt;br&gt; You || '''INF+ thakbi''' 
|-
| 2nd Person &lt;br&gt; (formal) || আপনি&lt;br&gt;aap•ni &lt;br&gt;You || '''INF+ thakben''' || আপনারা &lt;br&gt;aap•naa•raa&lt;br&gt;You || '''INF+ thakben''' 
|-
| 3rd Person &lt;br&gt; (informal) || সে &lt;br&gt;she&lt;br&gt; He/She || '''INF+ thakbe''' || তারা &lt;br&gt;taa•raa&lt;br&gt;They || '''INF+ thakbe'''
|-
| 3rd Person &lt;br&gt; (formal) || তিনি &lt;br&gt;ti•ni&lt;br&gt;He/She || '''INF+ thakben''' || তাঁরা &lt;br&gt;taa(n)•raa&lt;br&gt; They || '''INF+ thakben'''
|}

===Perfect future===

{| class=&quot;wikitable&quot;
|-
| || colspan=&quot;2&quot; | '''Singular''' || colspan=&quot;2&quot; | '''Plural'''
|-
| 1st Person || আমি &lt;br&gt; aa•mi&lt;br&gt; I ||'''PAST PARTICIPLE + thakbo''' 

| আমরা &lt;br&gt; aam•raa&lt;br&gt; We ||'''PAST PARTICIPLE + thakbo'''

|-
| 2nd Person &lt;br&gt; (informal) || তুমি &lt;br&gt;tu•mi&lt;br&gt; You || '''PAST PARTICIPLE + thakbe''' || তোমরা &lt;br&gt;tom•raa &lt;br&gt;You || '''PAST PARTICIPLE + thakbe''' 
|-
| 2nd Person &lt;br&gt; (familiar / &lt;br&gt;derogatory) || তুই &lt;br&gt;tui&lt;br&gt; You || '''PAST PARTICIPLE + thakbi''' || তোরা &lt;br&gt;to•ra&lt;br&gt; You || '''PAST PARTICIPLE + thakbi''' 
|-
| 2nd Person &lt;br&gt; (formal) || আপনি&lt;br&gt;aap•ni &lt;br&gt;You || '''PAST PARTICIPLE + thakben''' || আপনারা &lt;br&gt;aap•naa•raa&lt;br&gt;You || '''PAST PARTICIPLE + thakben''' 
|-
| 3rd Person &lt;br&gt; (informal) || সে &lt;br&gt;she&lt;br&gt; He/She || '''PAST PARTICIPLE + thakbe''' || তারা &lt;br&gt;taa•raa&lt;br&gt;They || '''PAST PARTICIPLE + thakbe'''
|-
| 3rd Person &lt;br&gt; (formal) || তিনি &lt;br&gt;ti•ni&lt;br&gt;He/She || '''PAST PARTICIPLE + thakben''' || তাঁরা &lt;br&gt;taa(n)•raa&lt;br&gt; They || '''PAST PARTICIPLE + thakben'''
|}


*[[/Perfect Aspect/]]

{{subpage navbar}}

[[Category:Bengali Language]]
[[Category:Verbs]]</text>
      <sha1>r20xvnjw0wb7eje48lqro20ffpdo3kr</sha1>
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  </page>
  <page>
    <title>Wikiversity:CheckUser policy</title>
    <ns>4</ns>
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    <revision>
      <id>2808162</id>
      <parentid>2804573</parentid>
      <timestamp>2026-05-10T10:33:00Z</timestamp>
      <contributor>
        <username>Jtneill</username>
        <id>10242</id>
      </contributor>
      <minor />
      <origin>2808162</origin>
      <model>wikitext</model>
      <format>text/x-wiki</format>
      <text bytes="6017" sha1="kbetp9fgirwboxhx20d2xnog7f9dc3d" xml:space="preserve">{{policy|WV:CU}}
{{mbox|text=At this time, [[m:Stewards|stewards]] will need to run any [[m:Steward requests/Checkuser|requested checks on Meta]] as there are no local CheckUsers.}}
[[File:Wikiversity Checkuser.svg|right|130px|link=]]

'''CheckUser''' is a tool entrusted to experienced users which is used to combat serial vandals and/or abusive [[Wikipedia:Sockpuppet (Internet)|sockpuppets]]. It works by either providing the IP address of a user account, or showing all accounts that have used a particular IP. Checkuser access is given on an individual basis, and is only given to a user who is already a [[Wikiversity:Custodianship|custodian]], so that he or she can block if appropriate. Checkusers across all Wikimedia projects are in constant communication with each other and assist each other with cross-wiki issues.

Checkuser logs for any one project are visible to Stewards and any CheckUser on any other Wikimedia project. In the interests of assuring privacy, the checkuser mailinglist is not readable to non-checkusers. 

The [[Special:CheckUser|CheckUser feature]] in [[m:MediaWiki|MediaWiki]] is a special interface for users with the [[Special:ListUsers/checkuser|checkuser permission]]. An editor with CheckUser status on a wiki can check if a user is, or isn't, a sockpuppet of another user on that wiki. Those with CheckUser status are able to:

* Determine from which IPs a user has edited or done a logged action or password reset on Wikiversity
* Determine the edits, logged actions, and password resets on the Wikiversity wiki of a specific IP (even when logged in)
* Determine whether the user being checked has sent an email using the MediaWiki interface to some other user. The time of the event is logged, the destination email address and user ID are obscured.

Data collected from the database via the CheckUser feature is used to make a report to the [[Wikiversity:Custodianship|custodians]] for appropriate action. CheckUsers investigate when a user has been vandalizing articles or '''persistently''' behaving in a disruptive way, or as an IP user. Data obtained via the CheckUser feature may be used to assist in the targeting of IP blocks, or to assist in the formulation of a complaint to relevant Internet Service Providers.

If '''Wikiversity has no assigned CheckUsers,''' then checkuser requests must be made at [[m:Steward requests/Checkuser|Steward requests/CheckUser]] and are subject to Meta policy.

==Privacy and limits on use==
On [[m:Wikimedia|Wikimedia]] projects, the use of the checkuser tools and release of the private data is limited by the [[:meta:Special:MyLanguage/CheckUser_policy|Meta CheckUser policy]] and the [[wmf:Access to nonpublic data policy|WMF access to nonpublic data policy]]. CheckUser actions are logged, but for privacy reasons the logs are only visible to other Checkusers and Stewards. Because of this, Wikiversity must always have no fewer than two checkusers, for mutual accountability.

[[Image:CheckUser log.png|thumb|Every Checkuser action is recorded in a log which every Checkuser can review.]]
The CheckUser feature is to be used to fight vandalism, block violations, or check abuse of sockpuppets, for example when there is a suspicion of illegal voting. '''It must be used only to prevent damage to one or several of Wikimedia projects.'''

'''One is not allowed to use the tool for political control, nor to apply pressure on editors, nor as a threat towards an editor with whom you are in disagreement. There must be a valid motive to check a user (a bare disagreement with the leaders of a wiki is not a valid motive).'''

Sockpuppets are not generally forbidden (editors may edit Wikiversity under several accounts). It is the abuse of sockpuppets (and in particular voting twice under two different names) which is severely frowned upon.

At Wikiversity, notice to the community of each use of the CheckUser feature must be made. This is mandatory, but private information is not released, only the fact that a check was performed. The CheckUser feature is used to check if UserX is a sockpuppet of UserY. Community members can request such checks at [[Wikiversity:Requests for CheckUser|Requests for CheckUser]] by listing the users and explaining why they are asking for such a check (with links to offending edits). A Wikiversity user with CheckUser rights will answer you if these two users are from the same IP, same proxy, same network, same country, or they are completely unrelated.

Information on and requests for access are below at [[#Becoming a CheckUser|Becoming a CheckUser]].

===Requesting a CheckUser===
For those in need of making a request for a sockpuppet investigation please go to [[Wikiversity:Requests for CheckUser|Requests for CheckUser]] and fill out the form.

==List of Checkusers==
* ''to be filled''
* ''to be filled''

==Becoming a CheckUser==
If you are interested in getting involved with CheckUser work, please list yourself at [[Wikiversity:Candidates for Custodianship#Nominations for CheckUser|Nominations for CheckUser]]. To apply for access, there must be at least two CheckUsers, so they can monitor each other ([[m:CheckUser policy|see]]), they must be identified to the Foundation, and each must be at least 18 years of age and of legal age in their place of residence, and must sign the privacy policy via the Legal Pad on Phabricator ([[Foundation:Resolution:Access_to_nonpublic_data|see]]). Requests here must be advertised ([[Wikiversity:News]], [http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikiversity-l mailing list] and [[Wikiversity:Colloquium]]). 

[[:meta:Special:MyLanguage/CheckUser_policy|Meta policy]] further requires that checkuser nominations must be approved by the Wikiversity community (70-80% approval, with at least 25-30 approving votes). A Bureaucrat will request for CheckUser rights at [[m:Steward requests/Permissions#CheckUser access|Steward requests/Permissions]] on Meta, with a link to the page with the community's decision.

{{Official policies}}</text>
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    </revision>
    <revision>
      <id>2808163</id>
      <parentid>2808162</parentid>
      <timestamp>2026-05-10T10:33:56Z</timestamp>
      <contributor>
        <username>Jtneill</username>
        <id>10242</id>
      </contributor>
      <comment>/* Becoming a CheckUser */ Fix link</comment>
      <origin>2808163</origin>
      <model>wikitext</model>
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      <text bytes="5987" sha1="jjpnv3y052vbh632aqls74hu1wp3xin" xml:space="preserve">{{policy|WV:CU}}
{{mbox|text=At this time, [[m:Stewards|stewards]] will need to run any [[m:Steward requests/Checkuser|requested checks on Meta]] as there are no local CheckUsers.}}
[[File:Wikiversity Checkuser.svg|right|130px|link=]]

'''CheckUser''' is a tool entrusted to experienced users which is used to combat serial vandals and/or abusive [[Wikipedia:Sockpuppet (Internet)|sockpuppets]]. It works by either providing the IP address of a user account, or showing all accounts that have used a particular IP. Checkuser access is given on an individual basis, and is only given to a user who is already a [[Wikiversity:Custodianship|custodian]], so that he or she can block if appropriate. Checkusers across all Wikimedia projects are in constant communication with each other and assist each other with cross-wiki issues.

Checkuser logs for any one project are visible to Stewards and any CheckUser on any other Wikimedia project. In the interests of assuring privacy, the checkuser mailinglist is not readable to non-checkusers. 

The [[Special:CheckUser|CheckUser feature]] in [[m:MediaWiki|MediaWiki]] is a special interface for users with the [[Special:ListUsers/checkuser|checkuser permission]]. An editor with CheckUser status on a wiki can check if a user is, or isn't, a sockpuppet of another user on that wiki. Those with CheckUser status are able to:

* Determine from which IPs a user has edited or done a logged action or password reset on Wikiversity
* Determine the edits, logged actions, and password resets on the Wikiversity wiki of a specific IP (even when logged in)
* Determine whether the user being checked has sent an email using the MediaWiki interface to some other user. The time of the event is logged, the destination email address and user ID are obscured.

Data collected from the database via the CheckUser feature is used to make a report to the [[Wikiversity:Custodianship|custodians]] for appropriate action. CheckUsers investigate when a user has been vandalizing articles or '''persistently''' behaving in a disruptive way, or as an IP user. Data obtained via the CheckUser feature may be used to assist in the targeting of IP blocks, or to assist in the formulation of a complaint to relevant Internet Service Providers.

If '''Wikiversity has no assigned CheckUsers,''' then checkuser requests must be made at [[m:Steward requests/Checkuser|Steward requests/CheckUser]] and are subject to Meta policy.

==Privacy and limits on use==
On [[m:Wikimedia|Wikimedia]] projects, the use of the checkuser tools and release of the private data is limited by the [[:meta:Special:MyLanguage/CheckUser_policy|Meta CheckUser policy]] and the [[wmf:Access to nonpublic data policy|WMF access to nonpublic data policy]]. CheckUser actions are logged, but for privacy reasons the logs are only visible to other Checkusers and Stewards. Because of this, Wikiversity must always have no fewer than two checkusers, for mutual accountability.

[[Image:CheckUser log.png|thumb|Every Checkuser action is recorded in a log which every Checkuser can review.]]
The CheckUser feature is to be used to fight vandalism, block violations, or check abuse of sockpuppets, for example when there is a suspicion of illegal voting. '''It must be used only to prevent damage to one or several of Wikimedia projects.'''

'''One is not allowed to use the tool for political control, nor to apply pressure on editors, nor as a threat towards an editor with whom you are in disagreement. There must be a valid motive to check a user (a bare disagreement with the leaders of a wiki is not a valid motive).'''

Sockpuppets are not generally forbidden (editors may edit Wikiversity under several accounts). It is the abuse of sockpuppets (and in particular voting twice under two different names) which is severely frowned upon.

At Wikiversity, notice to the community of each use of the CheckUser feature must be made. This is mandatory, but private information is not released, only the fact that a check was performed. The CheckUser feature is used to check if UserX is a sockpuppet of UserY. Community members can request such checks at [[Wikiversity:Requests for CheckUser|Requests for CheckUser]] by listing the users and explaining why they are asking for such a check (with links to offending edits). A Wikiversity user with CheckUser rights will answer you if these two users are from the same IP, same proxy, same network, same country, or they are completely unrelated.

Information on and requests for access are below at [[#Becoming a CheckUser|Becoming a CheckUser]].

===Requesting a CheckUser===
For those in need of making a request for a sockpuppet investigation please go to [[Wikiversity:Requests for CheckUser|Requests for CheckUser]] and fill out the form.

==List of Checkusers==
* ''to be filled''
* ''to be filled''

==Becoming a CheckUser==
If you are interested in getting involved with CheckUser work, please list yourself at [[Wikiversity:Candidates for CheckUser|Nominations for CheckUser]]. To apply for access, there must be at least two CheckUsers, so they can monitor each other ([[m:CheckUser policy|see]]), they must be identified to the Foundation, and each must be at least 18 years of age and of legal age in their place of residence, and must sign the privacy policy via the Legal Pad on Phabricator ([[Foundation:Resolution:Access_to_nonpublic_data|see]]). Requests here must be advertised ([[Wikiversity:News]], [http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikiversity-l mailing list] and [[Wikiversity:Colloquium]]). 

[[:meta:Special:MyLanguage/CheckUser_policy|Meta policy]] further requires that checkuser nominations must be approved by the Wikiversity community (70-80% approval, with at least 25-30 approving votes). A Bureaucrat will request for CheckUser rights at [[m:Steward requests/Permissions#CheckUser access|Steward requests/Permissions]] on Meta, with a link to the page with the community's decision.

{{Official policies}}</text>
      <sha1>jjpnv3y052vbh632aqls74hu1wp3xin</sha1>
    </revision>
    <revision>
      <id>2808167</id>
      <parentid>2808163</parentid>
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        <id>10242</id>
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{{mbox|text=At this time, [[m:Stewards|stewards]] will need to run any [[m:Steward requests/Checkuser|requested checks on Meta]] as there are no local CheckUsers.}}
[[File:Wikiversity Checkuser.svg|right|130px|link=]]

'''CheckUser''' is a tool entrusted to experienced users which is used to combat serial vandals and/or abusive [[Wikipedia:Sockpuppet (Internet)|sockpuppets]]. It works by either providing the IP address of a user account, or showing all accounts that have used a particular IP. Checkuser access is given on an individual basis, and is only given to a user who is already a [[Wikiversity:Custodianship|custodian]], so that he or she can block if appropriate. Checkusers across all Wikimedia projects are in constant communication with each other and assist each other with cross-wiki issues.

Checkuser logs for any one project are visible to Stewards and any CheckUser on any other Wikimedia project. In the interests of assuring privacy, the checkuser mailinglist is not readable to non-checkusers. 

The [[Special:CheckUser|CheckUser feature]] in [[m:MediaWiki|MediaWiki]] is a special interface for users with the [[Special:ListUsers/checkuser|checkuser permission]]. An editor with CheckUser status on a wiki can check if a user is, or isn't, a sockpuppet of another user on that wiki. Those with CheckUser status are able to:

* Determine from which IPs a user has edited or done a logged action or password reset on Wikiversity
* Determine the edits, logged actions, and password resets on the Wikiversity wiki of a specific IP (even when logged in)
* Determine whether the user being checked has sent an email using the MediaWiki interface to some other user. The time of the event is logged, the destination email address and user ID are obscured.

Data collected from the database via the CheckUser feature is used to make a report to the [[Wikiversity:Custodianship|custodians]] for appropriate action. CheckUsers investigate when a user has been vandalizing articles or '''persistently''' behaving in a disruptive way, or as an IP user. Data obtained via the CheckUser feature may be used to assist in the targeting of IP blocks, or to assist in the formulation of a complaint to relevant Internet Service Providers.

If '''Wikiversity has no assigned CheckUsers,''' then checkuser requests must be made at [[m:Steward requests/Checkuser|Steward requests/CheckUser]] and are subject to Meta policy.

==Privacy and limits on use==
On [[m:Wikimedia|Wikimedia]] projects, the use of the checkuser tools and release of the private data is limited by the [[:meta:Special:MyLanguage/CheckUser_policy|Meta CheckUser policy]] and the [[wmf:Access to nonpublic data policy|WMF access to nonpublic data policy]]. CheckUser actions are logged, but for privacy reasons the logs are only visible to other Checkusers and Stewards. Because of this, Wikiversity must always have no fewer than two checkusers, for mutual accountability.

[[Image:CheckUser log.png|thumb|Every Checkuser action is recorded in a log which every Checkuser can review.]]
The CheckUser feature is to be used to fight vandalism, block violations, or check abuse of sockpuppets, for example when there is a suspicion of illegal voting. '''It must be used only to prevent damage to one or several of Wikimedia projects.'''

'''One is not allowed to use the tool for political control, nor to apply pressure on editors, nor as a threat towards an editor with whom you are in disagreement. There must be a valid motive to check a user (a bare disagreement with the leaders of a wiki is not a valid motive).'''

Sockpuppets are not generally forbidden (editors may edit Wikiversity under several accounts). It is the abuse of sockpuppets (and in particular voting twice under two different names) which is severely frowned upon.

At Wikiversity, notice to the community of each use of the CheckUser feature must be made. This is mandatory, but private information is not released, only the fact that a check was performed. The CheckUser feature is used to check if UserX is a sockpuppet of UserY. Community members can request such checks at [[Wikiversity:Requests for CheckUser|Requests for CheckUser]] by listing the users and explaining why they are asking for such a check (with links to offending edits). A Wikiversity user with CheckUser rights will answer you if these two users are from the same IP, same proxy, same network, same country, or they are completely unrelated.

Information on and requests for access are below at [[#Becoming a CheckUser|Becoming a CheckUser]].

===Requesting a CheckUser===
For those in need of making a request for a sockpuppet investigation please go to [[Wikiversity:Requests for CheckUser|Requests for CheckUser]] and fill out the form.

==List of Checkusers==
* ''to be filled''
* ''to be filled''

==Becoming a CheckUser==
If you are interested in getting involved with CheckUser work, please list yourself at [[Wikiversity:Candidates for CheckUser|Nominations for CheckUser]]. To apply for access, there must be at least two CheckUsers, so they can monitor each other ([[m:CheckUser policy|see]]), they must be identified to the Foundation, and each must be at least 18 years of age and of legal age in their place of residence, and must sign the privacy policy via the Legal Pad on Phabricator ([[Foundation:Resolution:Access_to_nonpublic_data|see]]). Requests here must be advertised ([[Wikiversity:News]], [http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikiversity-l mailing list] and [[Wikiversity:Colloquium]]). 

[[:meta:Special:MyLanguage/CheckUser_policy|Meta policy]] further requires that checkuser nominations must be approved by the Wikiversity community (70-80% approval, with at least 25-30 approving votes). A [[Wikiversity:Bureaucratship|Bureaucrat]] would then make a request for the CheckUser rights at [[m:Steward requests/Permissions#CheckUser access|Steward requests/Permissions]] on Meta, with a link to the page with the community's decision.

{{Official policies}}</text>
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  </page>
  <page>
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  <page>
    <title>Maritime Health Research and Education-NET</title>
    <ns>0</ns>
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    <revision>
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      <parentid>2808025</parentid>
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        <username>Saltrabook</username>
        <id>1417466</id>
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= '''' The John Snow Research Institute -2026'''' =
Billions are at increased risk of developing metabolic syndromes with prediabetes, diabetes type 2, high blood pressure and overweight. All can lower their risks by staying physical active and eating well. For early identification of the risks we propose to register weight and height (Body Mass Index) and the fasting blood sugar in the '''Prevalence studies''' at the schools for seafarers, nurses, medical students and the kids schools.(not blood sugar).The 16-weeks '''intervention studies''' include learnings by short video sequences and self-monitoring of blood sugar with glucometer, and self-evaluation of diet and physical activity.[[File:Lifestyle Medicine Pillars.png|300px|right|The focus of Lifestyle Medicine is on these 6 pillars.]]
[[File:Tarragona, Spain, the authors of the school children`s health Promotion learning.jpg|thumb|right|]]
[[File:John Snow.jpg|thumb| right|John Snow in the early nineteenth century]]


1. '&lt;nowiki/&gt;'''Prevalence studies''''

1.1 The-International-Maritime-Health-Database &lt;ref&gt;https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/z3cq5ciiev06y8v9duw7u/A-International-Maritime-Health-Database.docx?cloud_editor=word&amp;dl=0&amp;rlkey=pt0kdesvmagcxaa2wez3tmza3 &lt;/ref&gt;

1.2 Nursing Students Health Database &lt;ref&gt; https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/tcznmmd2y3nona5e3h1ro/The-Nursing-students-health-database.docx?cloud_editor=word&amp;dl=0&amp;rlkey=onbjh4o8ko1lzdvgyi8nlrotk &lt;/ref&gt;

1.3. Medical student's Health Database &lt;ref&gt;https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/f16h9b60u4gxgt56un2jf/The-Medical-students-Health-database.docx?cloud_editor=word&amp;dl=0&amp;rlkey=xyfqen5trdc5lniaovipl548n &lt;/ref&gt;

1.4. School childrens Health database &lt;ref&gt; https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/u6u50c8bxwhte9t2t6ck8/The-School-children-s-Health-database.docx?cloud_editor=word&amp;dl=0&amp;rlkey=zlyz5wn673wf7owettq3nx3h5 &lt;/ref&gt;

2. '''Intervention studies''' Englsh 
&lt;ref&gt;https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/oi6cx6tlwwvoko3ed37tn/Invitation-to-the-course-English.docx?cloud_editor=word&amp;dl=0&amp;rlkey=7kzg91tqfgjskxf5aji8khicx &lt;/ref&gt; Danish
&lt;ref&gt;https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/2qahc3q9hmf4skbvk77ab/Invitation-to-the-course-in-Danish.docx?cloud_editor=word&amp;dl=0&amp;rlkey=x63w8oqvarz284zg2btq2johv &lt;/ref&gt; Spanish &lt;ref&gt; https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/bn71inqeeth4o4mc1fjth/Invitation-to-the-course-Spanish.docx?cloud_editor=word&amp;dl=0&amp;rlkey=popmr1fnodh1v951v9l7k9ezv &lt;/ref&gt;

- General research protocol draft
&lt;ref&gt; https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/gau25oy5y1s57046icjt2/Research-protocol-draft.docx?cloud_editor=word&amp;dl=0&amp;rlkey=wat63e25ritmujwcpss8s4v0s &lt;/ref&gt;

- Health Promoting Schools &lt;ref&gt; https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/0rm7honrezbjwrcy3h3yk/Health-promoting-schools.docx?cloud_editor=word&amp;dl=0&amp;rlkey=673jyzcmwbfw7k9ui9nmtp0zh &lt;/ref&gt; 

- John Snow Institute bylaws &lt;ref&gt; https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/lccr7jtnga1u0x75117zn/John-Snow-revision-2-March-11.doc?cloud_editor=word&amp;dl=0&amp;rlkey=lz2gi7mslcoay5dzygg8h6n6r &lt;/ref&gt;

'''Publications and pptx''' 2016-2026 &lt;ref&gt;https://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Maritime_Health_Research_and_Education-NET/The_International_Type_2_Diabetes_Mellitus_and_Hypertension_Research_Group#The_John_Snow_Institute &lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt; https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/mw7ft423lkkpjoxywd2bf &lt;/ref&gt;

'''Prediabetes-Remission Research Network:'''
&lt;small&gt;Prof. Ing. MSc. Nailet Delgado; Dr. Olaf Jensen, MD, MPH, PhD, o147248@gmail.com; MSc.Ph.D. Bishal Gyawali (SDU); MSc.PhD Vivi Just-Nørregaard; Dr. Johan Hviid Andersen MD, PhD. Prof Århus University; Prof. MSc. Agnes Flores, UMECIT, Panama; Dr. Maite, Vacamonte, Panama; Bruno Nørdam, Randers; Dr. Maite Duque, Venezuela; Dr. Indira Santos Panama; Med.Stud. Ashley Lezcano, Panama; Dr. Antonio Roberto Abaya MD Filippines; Dr. Jen Mendoza, MD, Filippines; Dr. Andra Ergle MD, Latvia; Prof. MSc. Ingrid Morató, Tarragona/Cadiz, Spain; MBA Christian Acheampong, Turkey; Dr. Alejandro Martinez, MPH, Costa Rica; Dr. Med. Sci Finn Gyntelberg; NFA.and Bispebj. Hosp. Denmark,&lt;/small&gt;

==References==
[[Category:Prediabetes ]]
&lt;references /&gt;Education 1: Research Methodology &lt;ref&gt;https://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Maritime_Health_Research_and_Education-NET/EDUCATION/Education_module_links&lt;/ref&gt;</text>
      <sha1>efbeumqg992m8rjry9sr4gwyk0zflbp</sha1>
    </revision>
    <revision>
      <id>2808051</id>
      <parentid>2808049</parentid>
      <timestamp>2026-05-09T13:56:40Z</timestamp>
      <contributor>
        <username>Saltrabook</username>
        <id>1417466</id>
      </contributor>
      <origin>2808051</origin>
      <model>wikitext</model>
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      <text bytes="4223" sha1="n92cl5bsjrn90ynqxe01d8i1v6gs9wj" xml:space="preserve">[[File:ChatGPT Image 24 abr 2026, 08 16 04 a.m.png|thumb|]]
= '''' The John Snow Research Institute -2026'''' =
Billions are at increased risk of developing metabolic syndromes with prediabetes, diabetes type 2, high blood pressure and overweight. All can lower their risks by staying physical active and eating well. For early identification of the risks we propose to register weight and height (Body Mass Index) and the fasting blood sugar in the '''Prevalence studies''' at the schools for seafarers, nurses, medical students and the kids schools.(not blood sugar).The 16-weeks '''intervention studies''' include learnings by short video sequences and self-monitoring of blood sugar with glucometer, and self-evaluation of diet and physical activity.[[File:Lifestyle Medicine Pillars.png|300px|right|The focus of Lifestyle Medicine is on these 6 pillars.]]
[[File:Tarragona, Spain, jpg|thumb|right|the authors of the school children`s health Promotion learning]]
[[File:John Snow.jpg|thumb| right|John Snow in the early nineteenth century]]


1. '&lt;nowiki/&gt;'''Prevalence studies''''

1.1 The-International-Maritime-Health-Database &lt;ref&gt;https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/z3cq5ciiev06y8v9duw7u/A-International-Maritime-Health-Database.docx?cloud_editor=word&amp;dl=0&amp;rlkey=pt0kdesvmagcxaa2wez3tmza3 &lt;/ref&gt;

1.2 Nursing Students Health Database &lt;ref&gt; https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/tcznmmd2y3nona5e3h1ro/The-Nursing-students-health-database.docx?cloud_editor=word&amp;dl=0&amp;rlkey=onbjh4o8ko1lzdvgyi8nlrotk &lt;/ref&gt;

1.3. Medical student's Health Database &lt;ref&gt;https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/f16h9b60u4gxgt56un2jf/The-Medical-students-Health-database.docx?cloud_editor=word&amp;dl=0&amp;rlkey=xyfqen5trdc5lniaovipl548n &lt;/ref&gt;

1.4. School childrens Health database &lt;ref&gt; https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/u6u50c8bxwhte9t2t6ck8/The-School-children-s-Health-database.docx?cloud_editor=word&amp;dl=0&amp;rlkey=zlyz5wn673wf7owettq3nx3h5 &lt;/ref&gt;

2. '''Intervention studies''' Englsh 
&lt;ref&gt;https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/oi6cx6tlwwvoko3ed37tn/Invitation-to-the-course-English.docx?cloud_editor=word&amp;dl=0&amp;rlkey=7kzg91tqfgjskxf5aji8khicx &lt;/ref&gt; Danish
&lt;ref&gt;https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/2qahc3q9hmf4skbvk77ab/Invitation-to-the-course-in-Danish.docx?cloud_editor=word&amp;dl=0&amp;rlkey=x63w8oqvarz284zg2btq2johv &lt;/ref&gt; Spanish &lt;ref&gt; https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/bn71inqeeth4o4mc1fjth/Invitation-to-the-course-Spanish.docx?cloud_editor=word&amp;dl=0&amp;rlkey=popmr1fnodh1v951v9l7k9ezv &lt;/ref&gt;

- General research protocol draft
&lt;ref&gt; https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/gau25oy5y1s57046icjt2/Research-protocol-draft.docx?cloud_editor=word&amp;dl=0&amp;rlkey=wat63e25ritmujwcpss8s4v0s &lt;/ref&gt;

- Health Promoting Schools &lt;ref&gt; https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/0rm7honrezbjwrcy3h3yk/Health-promoting-schools.docx?cloud_editor=word&amp;dl=0&amp;rlkey=673jyzcmwbfw7k9ui9nmtp0zh &lt;/ref&gt; 

- John Snow Institute bylaws &lt;ref&gt; https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/lccr7jtnga1u0x75117zn/John-Snow-revision-2-March-11.doc?cloud_editor=word&amp;dl=0&amp;rlkey=lz2gi7mslcoay5dzygg8h6n6r &lt;/ref&gt;

'''Publications and pptx''' 2016-2026 &lt;ref&gt;https://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Maritime_Health_Research_and_Education-NET/The_International_Type_2_Diabetes_Mellitus_and_Hypertension_Research_Group#The_John_Snow_Institute &lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt; https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/mw7ft423lkkpjoxywd2bf &lt;/ref&gt;

'''Prediabetes-Remission Research Network:'''
&lt;small&gt;Prof. Ing. MSc. Nailet Delgado; Dr. Olaf Jensen, MD, MPH, PhD, o147248@gmail.com; MSc.Ph.D. Bishal Gyawali (SDU); MSc.PhD Vivi Just-Nørregaard; Dr. Johan Hviid Andersen MD, PhD. Prof Århus University; Prof. MSc. Agnes Flores, UMECIT, Panama; Dr. Maite, Vacamonte, Panama; Bruno Nørdam, Randers; Dr. Maite Duque, Venezuela; Dr. Indira Santos Panama; Med.Stud. Ashley Lezcano, Panama; Dr. Antonio Roberto Abaya MD Filippines; Dr. Jen Mendoza, MD, Filippines; Dr. Andra Ergle MD, Latvia; Prof. MSc. Ingrid Morató, Tarragona/Cadiz, Spain; MBA Christian Acheampong, Turkey; Dr. Alejandro Martinez, MPH, Costa Rica; Dr. Med. Sci Finn Gyntelberg; NFA.and Bispebj. Hosp. Denmark,&lt;/small&gt;

==References==
[[Category:Prediabetes ]]
&lt;references /&gt;Education 1: Research Methodology &lt;ref&gt;https://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Maritime_Health_Research_and_Education-NET/EDUCATION/Education_module_links&lt;/ref&gt;</text>
      <sha1>n92cl5bsjrn90ynqxe01d8i1v6gs9wj</sha1>
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    <revision>
      <id>2808053</id>
      <parentid>2808051</parentid>
      <timestamp>2026-05-09T14:00:02Z</timestamp>
      <contributor>
        <username>Saltrabook</username>
        <id>1417466</id>
      </contributor>
      <origin>2808053</origin>
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= '''' The John Snow Research Institute -2026'''' =
Billions are at increased risk of developing metabolic syndromes with prediabetes, diabetes type 2, high blood pressure and overweight. All can lower their risks by staying physical active and eating well. For early identification of the risks we propose to register weight and height (Body Mass Index) and the fasting blood sugar in the '''Prevalence studies''' at the schools for seafarers, nurses, medical students and the kids schools.(not blood sugar).The 16-weeks '''intervention studies''' include learnings by short video sequences and self-monitoring of blood sugar with glucometer, and self-evaluation of diet and physical activity.[[File:Lifestyle Medicine Pillars.png|300px|right|The focus of Lifestyle Medicine is on these 6 pillars.]]
[[File:Tarragona, Spain,jpg|thumb| editors of the school children`s health Promotion]]
[[File:John Snow.jpg|thumb| right|John Snow in the early nineteenth century]]


1. '&lt;nowiki/&gt;'''Prevalence studies''''

1.1 The-International-Maritime-Health-Database &lt;ref&gt;https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/z3cq5ciiev06y8v9duw7u/A-International-Maritime-Health-Database.docx?cloud_editor=word&amp;dl=0&amp;rlkey=pt0kdesvmagcxaa2wez3tmza3 &lt;/ref&gt;

1.2 Nursing Students Health Database &lt;ref&gt; https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/tcznmmd2y3nona5e3h1ro/The-Nursing-students-health-database.docx?cloud_editor=word&amp;dl=0&amp;rlkey=onbjh4o8ko1lzdvgyi8nlrotk &lt;/ref&gt;

1.3. Medical student's Health Database &lt;ref&gt;https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/f16h9b60u4gxgt56un2jf/The-Medical-students-Health-database.docx?cloud_editor=word&amp;dl=0&amp;rlkey=xyfqen5trdc5lniaovipl548n &lt;/ref&gt;

1.4. School childrens Health database &lt;ref&gt; https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/u6u50c8bxwhte9t2t6ck8/The-School-children-s-Health-database.docx?cloud_editor=word&amp;dl=0&amp;rlkey=zlyz5wn673wf7owettq3nx3h5 &lt;/ref&gt;

2. '''Intervention studies''' Englsh 
&lt;ref&gt;https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/oi6cx6tlwwvoko3ed37tn/Invitation-to-the-course-English.docx?cloud_editor=word&amp;dl=0&amp;rlkey=7kzg91tqfgjskxf5aji8khicx &lt;/ref&gt; Danish
&lt;ref&gt;https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/2qahc3q9hmf4skbvk77ab/Invitation-to-the-course-in-Danish.docx?cloud_editor=word&amp;dl=0&amp;rlkey=x63w8oqvarz284zg2btq2johv &lt;/ref&gt; Spanish &lt;ref&gt; https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/bn71inqeeth4o4mc1fjth/Invitation-to-the-course-Spanish.docx?cloud_editor=word&amp;dl=0&amp;rlkey=popmr1fnodh1v951v9l7k9ezv &lt;/ref&gt;

- General research protocol draft
&lt;ref&gt; https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/gau25oy5y1s57046icjt2/Research-protocol-draft.docx?cloud_editor=word&amp;dl=0&amp;rlkey=wat63e25ritmujwcpss8s4v0s &lt;/ref&gt;

- Health Promoting Schools &lt;ref&gt; https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/0rm7honrezbjwrcy3h3yk/Health-promoting-schools.docx?cloud_editor=word&amp;dl=0&amp;rlkey=673jyzcmwbfw7k9ui9nmtp0zh &lt;/ref&gt; 

- John Snow Institute bylaws &lt;ref&gt; https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/lccr7jtnga1u0x75117zn/John-Snow-revision-2-March-11.doc?cloud_editor=word&amp;dl=0&amp;rlkey=lz2gi7mslcoay5dzygg8h6n6r &lt;/ref&gt;

'''Publications and pptx''' 2016-2026 &lt;ref&gt;https://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Maritime_Health_Research_and_Education-NET/The_International_Type_2_Diabetes_Mellitus_and_Hypertension_Research_Group#The_John_Snow_Institute &lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt; https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/mw7ft423lkkpjoxywd2bf &lt;/ref&gt;

'''Prediabetes-Remission Research Network:'''
&lt;small&gt;Prof. Ing. MSc. Nailet Delgado; Dr. Olaf Jensen, MD, MPH, PhD, o147248@gmail.com; MSc.Ph.D. Bishal Gyawali (SDU); MSc.PhD Vivi Just-Nørregaard; Dr. Johan Hviid Andersen MD, PhD. Prof Århus University; Prof. MSc. Agnes Flores, UMECIT, Panama; Dr. Maite, Vacamonte, Panama; Bruno Nørdam, Randers; Dr. Maite Duque, Venezuela; Dr. Indira Santos Panama; Med.Stud. Ashley Lezcano, Panama; Dr. Antonio Roberto Abaya MD Filippines; Dr. Jen Mendoza, MD, Filippines; Dr. Andra Ergle MD, Latvia; Prof. MSc. Ingrid Morató, Tarragona/Cadiz, Spain; MBA Christian Acheampong, Turkey; Dr. Alejandro Martinez, MPH, Costa Rica; Dr. Med. Sci Finn Gyntelberg; NFA.and Bispebj. Hosp. Denmark,&lt;/small&gt;

==References==
[[Category:Prediabetes ]]
&lt;references /&gt;Education 1: Research Methodology &lt;ref&gt;https://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Maritime_Health_Research_and_Education-NET/EDUCATION/Education_module_links&lt;/ref&gt;</text>
      <sha1>29kb4b03zaoxxx4cgfsh5vhitnlwwij</sha1>
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    <revision>
      <id>2808055</id>
      <parentid>2808053</parentid>
      <timestamp>2026-05-09T14:02:05Z</timestamp>
      <contributor>
        <username>Saltrabook</username>
        <id>1417466</id>
      </contributor>
      <origin>2808055</origin>
      <model>wikitext</model>
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= '''' The John Snow Research Institute -2026'''' =
Billions are at increased risk of developing metabolic syndromes with prediabetes, diabetes type 2, high blood pressure and overweight. All can lower their risks by staying physical active and eating well. For early identification of the risks we propose to register weight and height (Body Mass Index) and the fasting blood sugar in the '''Prevalence studies''' at the schools for seafarers, nurses, medical students and the kids schools.(not blood sugar).The 16-weeks '''intervention studies''' include learnings by short video sequences and self-monitoring of blood sugar with glucometer, and self-evaluation of diet and physical activity.[[File:Lifestyle Medicine Pillars.png|300px|right|The focus of Lifestyle Medicine is on these 6 pillars.]]
[[File:Tarragona, Spain,png|thumb| editors of the school children`s health Promotion]]
[[File:John Snow.jpg|thumb|John Snow in the early nineteenth century]]


1. '&lt;nowiki/&gt;'''Prevalence studies''''

1.1 The-International-Maritime-Health-Database &lt;ref&gt;https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/z3cq5ciiev06y8v9duw7u/A-International-Maritime-Health-Database.docx?cloud_editor=word&amp;dl=0&amp;rlkey=pt0kdesvmagcxaa2wez3tmza3 &lt;/ref&gt;

1.2 Nursing Students Health Database &lt;ref&gt; https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/tcznmmd2y3nona5e3h1ro/The-Nursing-students-health-database.docx?cloud_editor=word&amp;dl=0&amp;rlkey=onbjh4o8ko1lzdvgyi8nlrotk &lt;/ref&gt;

1.3. Medical student's Health Database &lt;ref&gt;https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/f16h9b60u4gxgt56un2jf/The-Medical-students-Health-database.docx?cloud_editor=word&amp;dl=0&amp;rlkey=xyfqen5trdc5lniaovipl548n &lt;/ref&gt;

1.4. School childrens Health database &lt;ref&gt; https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/u6u50c8bxwhte9t2t6ck8/The-School-children-s-Health-database.docx?cloud_editor=word&amp;dl=0&amp;rlkey=zlyz5wn673wf7owettq3nx3h5 &lt;/ref&gt;

2. '''Intervention studies''' Englsh 
&lt;ref&gt;https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/oi6cx6tlwwvoko3ed37tn/Invitation-to-the-course-English.docx?cloud_editor=word&amp;dl=0&amp;rlkey=7kzg91tqfgjskxf5aji8khicx &lt;/ref&gt; Danish
&lt;ref&gt;https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/2qahc3q9hmf4skbvk77ab/Invitation-to-the-course-in-Danish.docx?cloud_editor=word&amp;dl=0&amp;rlkey=x63w8oqvarz284zg2btq2johv &lt;/ref&gt; Spanish &lt;ref&gt; https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/bn71inqeeth4o4mc1fjth/Invitation-to-the-course-Spanish.docx?cloud_editor=word&amp;dl=0&amp;rlkey=popmr1fnodh1v951v9l7k9ezv &lt;/ref&gt;

- General research protocol draft
&lt;ref&gt; https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/gau25oy5y1s57046icjt2/Research-protocol-draft.docx?cloud_editor=word&amp;dl=0&amp;rlkey=wat63e25ritmujwcpss8s4v0s &lt;/ref&gt;

- Health Promoting Schools &lt;ref&gt; https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/0rm7honrezbjwrcy3h3yk/Health-promoting-schools.docx?cloud_editor=word&amp;dl=0&amp;rlkey=673jyzcmwbfw7k9ui9nmtp0zh &lt;/ref&gt; 

- John Snow Institute bylaws &lt;ref&gt; https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/lccr7jtnga1u0x75117zn/John-Snow-revision-2-March-11.doc?cloud_editor=word&amp;dl=0&amp;rlkey=lz2gi7mslcoay5dzygg8h6n6r &lt;/ref&gt;

'''Publications and pptx''' 2016-2026 &lt;ref&gt;https://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Maritime_Health_Research_and_Education-NET/The_International_Type_2_Diabetes_Mellitus_and_Hypertension_Research_Group#The_John_Snow_Institute &lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt; https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/mw7ft423lkkpjoxywd2bf &lt;/ref&gt;

'''Prediabetes-Remission Research Network:'''
&lt;small&gt;Prof. Ing. MSc. Nailet Delgado; Dr. Olaf Jensen, MD, MPH, PhD, o147248@gmail.com; MSc.Ph.D. Bishal Gyawali (SDU); MSc.PhD Vivi Just-Nørregaard; Dr. Johan Hviid Andersen MD, PhD. Prof Århus University; Prof. MSc. Agnes Flores, UMECIT, Panama; Dr. Maite, Vacamonte, Panama; Bruno Nørdam, Randers; Dr. Maite Duque, Venezuela; Dr. Indira Santos Panama; Med.Stud. Ashley Lezcano, Panama; Dr. Antonio Roberto Abaya MD Filippines; Dr. Jen Mendoza, MD, Filippines; Dr. Andra Ergle MD, Latvia; Prof. MSc. Ingrid Morató, Tarragona/Cadiz, Spain; MBA Christian Acheampong, Turkey; Dr. Alejandro Martinez, MPH, Costa Rica; Dr. Med. Sci Finn Gyntelberg; NFA.and Bispebj. Hosp. Denmark,&lt;/small&gt;

==References==
[[Category:Prediabetes ]]
&lt;references /&gt;Education 1: Research Methodology &lt;ref&gt;https://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Maritime_Health_Research_and_Education-NET/EDUCATION/Education_module_links&lt;/ref&gt;</text>
      <sha1>55mjcwtwvic0wjli2qad3scf6rii6zc</sha1>
    </revision>
    <revision>
      <id>2808058</id>
      <parentid>2808055</parentid>
      <timestamp>2026-05-09T14:05:03Z</timestamp>
      <contributor>
        <username>Saltrabook</username>
        <id>1417466</id>
      </contributor>
      <origin>2808058</origin>
      <model>wikitext</model>
      <format>text/x-wiki</format>
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= '''' The John Snow Research Institute -2026'''' =
Billions are at increased risk of developing metabolic syndromes with prediabetes, diabetes type 2, high blood pressure and overweight. All can lower their risks by staying physical active and eating well. For early identification of the risks we propose to register weight and height (Body Mass Index) and the fasting blood sugar in the '''Prevalence studies''' at the schools for seafarers, nurses, medical students and the kids schools.(not blood sugar).The 16-weeks '''intervention studies''' include learnings by short video sequences and self-monitoring of blood sugar with glucometer, and self-evaluation of diet and physical activity.[[File:Lifestyle Medicine Pillars.png|300px|right|The focus of Lifestyle Medicine is on these 6 pillars.]]
[[File:John Snow.jpg|thumb|John Snow in the early nineteenth century]]

1. '&lt;nowiki/&gt;'''Prevalence studies''''

1.1 The-International-Maritime-Health-Database &lt;ref&gt;https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/z3cq5ciiev06y8v9duw7u/A-International-Maritime-Health-Database.docx?cloud_editor=word&amp;dl=0&amp;rlkey=pt0kdesvmagcxaa2wez3tmza3 &lt;/ref&gt;

1.2 Nursing Students Health Database &lt;ref&gt; https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/tcznmmd2y3nona5e3h1ro/The-Nursing-students-health-database.docx?cloud_editor=word&amp;dl=0&amp;rlkey=onbjh4o8ko1lzdvgyi8nlrotk &lt;/ref&gt;

1.3. Medical student's Health Database &lt;ref&gt;https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/f16h9b60u4gxgt56un2jf/The-Medical-students-Health-database.docx?cloud_editor=word&amp;dl=0&amp;rlkey=xyfqen5trdc5lniaovipl548n &lt;/ref&gt;

1.4. School childrens Health database &lt;ref&gt; https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/u6u50c8bxwhte9t2t6ck8/The-School-children-s-Health-database.docx?cloud_editor=word&amp;dl=0&amp;rlkey=zlyz5wn673wf7owettq3nx3h5 &lt;/ref&gt;

2. '''Intervention studies''' Englsh 
&lt;ref&gt;https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/oi6cx6tlwwvoko3ed37tn/Invitation-to-the-course-English.docx?cloud_editor=word&amp;dl=0&amp;rlkey=7kzg91tqfgjskxf5aji8khicx &lt;/ref&gt; Danish
&lt;ref&gt;https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/2qahc3q9hmf4skbvk77ab/Invitation-to-the-course-in-Danish.docx?cloud_editor=word&amp;dl=0&amp;rlkey=x63w8oqvarz284zg2btq2johv &lt;/ref&gt; Spanish &lt;ref&gt; https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/bn71inqeeth4o4mc1fjth/Invitation-to-the-course-Spanish.docx?cloud_editor=word&amp;dl=0&amp;rlkey=popmr1fnodh1v951v9l7k9ezv &lt;/ref&gt;

- General research protocol draft
&lt;ref&gt; https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/gau25oy5y1s57046icjt2/Research-protocol-draft.docx?cloud_editor=word&amp;dl=0&amp;rlkey=wat63e25ritmujwcpss8s4v0s &lt;/ref&gt;

- Health Promoting Schools &lt;ref&gt; https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/0rm7honrezbjwrcy3h3yk/Health-promoting-schools.docx?cloud_editor=word&amp;dl=0&amp;rlkey=673jyzcmwbfw7k9ui9nmtp0zh &lt;/ref&gt; 

- John Snow Institute bylaws &lt;ref&gt; https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/lccr7jtnga1u0x75117zn/John-Snow-revision-2-March-11.doc?cloud_editor=word&amp;dl=0&amp;rlkey=lz2gi7mslcoay5dzygg8h6n6r &lt;/ref&gt;

'''Publications and pptx''' 2016-2026 &lt;ref&gt;https://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Maritime_Health_Research_and_Education-NET/The_International_Type_2_Diabetes_Mellitus_and_Hypertension_Research_Group#The_John_Snow_Institute &lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt; https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/mw7ft423lkkpjoxywd2bf &lt;/ref&gt;

'''Prediabetes-Remission Research Network:'''
&lt;small&gt;Prof. Ing. MSc. Nailet Delgado; Dr. Olaf Jensen, MD, MPH, PhD, o147248@gmail.com; MSc.Ph.D. Bishal Gyawali (SDU); MSc.PhD Vivi Just-Nørregaard; Dr. Johan Hviid Andersen MD, PhD. Prof Århus University; Prof. MSc. Agnes Flores, UMECIT, Panama; Dr. Maite, Vacamonte, Panama; Bruno Nørdam, Randers; Dr. Maite Duque, Venezuela; Dr. Indira Santos Panama; Med.Stud. Ashley Lezcano, Panama; Dr. Antonio Roberto Abaya MD Filippines; Dr. Jen Mendoza, MD, Filippines; Dr. Andra Ergle MD, Latvia; Prof. MSc. Ingrid Morató, Tarragona/Cadiz, Spain; MBA Christian Acheampong, Turkey; Dr. Alejandro Martinez, MPH, Costa Rica; Dr. Med. Sci Finn Gyntelberg; NFA.and Bispebj. Hosp. Denmark,&lt;/small&gt;

==References==
[[Category:Prediabetes ]]
&lt;references /&gt;Education 1: Research Methodology &lt;ref&gt;https://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Maritime_Health_Research_and_Education-NET/EDUCATION/Education_module_links&lt;/ref&gt;</text>
      <sha1>b57aemsbkyq5mmn6kbgbsgni9snhsvx</sha1>
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    <revision>
      <id>2808059</id>
      <parentid>2808058</parentid>
      <timestamp>2026-05-09T14:10:04Z</timestamp>
      <contributor>
        <username>Saltrabook</username>
        <id>1417466</id>
      </contributor>
      <origin>2808059</origin>
      <model>wikitext</model>
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= '''' The John Snow Research Institute -2026'''' =
Billions are at increased risk of developing metabolic syndromes with prediabetes, diabetes type 2, high blood pressure and overweight. All can lower their risks by staying physical active and eating well. For early identification of the risks we propose to register weight and height (Body Mass Index) and the fasting blood sugar in the '''Prevalence studies''' at the schools for seafarers, nurses, medical students and the kids schools.(not blood sugar).The 16-weeks '''intervention studies''' include learnings by short video sequences and self-monitoring of blood sugar with glucometer, and self-evaluation of diet and physical activity.[[File:Lifestyle Medicine Pillars.png|300px|right|The focus of Lifestyle Medicine is on these 6 pillars.]]
[[File:John Snow.jpg|thumb|John Snow in the early nineteenth century]]
[[File:Cholera in London 1866.gif|thumb|300px|Map of a later cholera outbreak in London, in 1866]] [[File:Choleramaplondon1866.png|thumb|right|300px|Legend for the map above]]

1. '&lt;nowiki/&gt;'''Prevalence studies''''

1.1 The-International-Maritime-Health-Database &lt;ref&gt;https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/z3cq5ciiev06y8v9duw7u/A-International-Maritime-Health-Database.docx?cloud_editor=word&amp;dl=0&amp;rlkey=pt0kdesvmagcxaa2wez3tmza3 &lt;/ref&gt;

1.2 Nursing Students Health Database &lt;ref&gt; https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/tcznmmd2y3nona5e3h1ro/The-Nursing-students-health-database.docx?cloud_editor=word&amp;dl=0&amp;rlkey=onbjh4o8ko1lzdvgyi8nlrotk &lt;/ref&gt;

1.3. Medical student's Health Database &lt;ref&gt;https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/f16h9b60u4gxgt56un2jf/The-Medical-students-Health-database.docx?cloud_editor=word&amp;dl=0&amp;rlkey=xyfqen5trdc5lniaovipl548n &lt;/ref&gt;

1.4. School childrens Health database &lt;ref&gt; https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/u6u50c8bxwhte9t2t6ck8/The-School-children-s-Health-database.docx?cloud_editor=word&amp;dl=0&amp;rlkey=zlyz5wn673wf7owettq3nx3h5 &lt;/ref&gt;

2. '''Intervention studies''' Englsh 
&lt;ref&gt;https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/oi6cx6tlwwvoko3ed37tn/Invitation-to-the-course-English.docx?cloud_editor=word&amp;dl=0&amp;rlkey=7kzg91tqfgjskxf5aji8khicx &lt;/ref&gt; Danish
&lt;ref&gt;https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/2qahc3q9hmf4skbvk77ab/Invitation-to-the-course-in-Danish.docx?cloud_editor=word&amp;dl=0&amp;rlkey=x63w8oqvarz284zg2btq2johv &lt;/ref&gt; Spanish &lt;ref&gt; https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/bn71inqeeth4o4mc1fjth/Invitation-to-the-course-Spanish.docx?cloud_editor=word&amp;dl=0&amp;rlkey=popmr1fnodh1v951v9l7k9ezv &lt;/ref&gt;

- General research protocol draft
&lt;ref&gt; https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/gau25oy5y1s57046icjt2/Research-protocol-draft.docx?cloud_editor=word&amp;dl=0&amp;rlkey=wat63e25ritmujwcpss8s4v0s &lt;/ref&gt;

- Health Promoting Schools &lt;ref&gt; https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/0rm7honrezbjwrcy3h3yk/Health-promoting-schools.docx?cloud_editor=word&amp;dl=0&amp;rlkey=673jyzcmwbfw7k9ui9nmtp0zh &lt;/ref&gt; 

- John Snow Institute bylaws &lt;ref&gt; https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/lccr7jtnga1u0x75117zn/John-Snow-revision-2-March-11.doc?cloud_editor=word&amp;dl=0&amp;rlkey=lz2gi7mslcoay5dzygg8h6n6r &lt;/ref&gt;

'''Publications and pptx''' 2016-2026 &lt;ref&gt;https://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Maritime_Health_Research_and_Education-NET/The_International_Type_2_Diabetes_Mellitus_and_Hypertension_Research_Group#The_John_Snow_Institute &lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt; https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/mw7ft423lkkpjoxywd2bf &lt;/ref&gt;

'''Prediabetes-Remission Research Network:'''
&lt;small&gt;Prof. Ing. MSc. Nailet Delgado; Dr. Olaf Jensen, MD, MPH, PhD, o147248@gmail.com; MSc.Ph.D. Bishal Gyawali (SDU); MSc.PhD Vivi Just-Nørregaard; Dr. Johan Hviid Andersen MD, PhD. Prof Århus University; Prof. MSc. Agnes Flores, UMECIT, Panama; Dr. Maite, Vacamonte, Panama; Bruno Nørdam, Randers; Dr. Maite Duque, Venezuela; Dr. Indira Santos Panama; Med.Stud. Ashley Lezcano, Panama; Dr. Antonio Roberto Abaya MD Filippines; Dr. Jen Mendoza, MD, Filippines; Dr. Andra Ergle MD, Latvia; Prof. MSc. Ingrid Morató, Tarragona/Cadiz, Spain; MBA Christian Acheampong, Turkey; Dr. Alejandro Martinez, MPH, Costa Rica; Dr. Med. Sci Finn Gyntelberg; NFA.and Bispebj. Hosp. Denmark,&lt;/small&gt;

==References==
[[Category:Prediabetes ]]
&lt;references /&gt;Education 1: Research Methodology &lt;ref&gt;https://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Maritime_Health_Research_and_Education-NET/EDUCATION/Education_module_links&lt;/ref&gt;</text>
      <sha1>ntnzplp9piv38ybjviv45psnyh7cl4v</sha1>
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    <revision>
      <id>2808063</id>
      <parentid>2808059</parentid>
      <timestamp>2026-05-09T14:38:38Z</timestamp>
      <contributor>
        <username>Saltrabook</username>
        <id>1417466</id>
      </contributor>
      <origin>2808063</origin>
      <model>wikitext</model>
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= '''' The John Snow Research Institute -2026'''' =
Billions are at increased risk of developing metabolic syndromes with prediabetes, diabetes type 2, high blood pressure and overweight. All can lower their risks by staying physical active and eating well. For early identification of the risks we propose to register weight and height (Body Mass Index) and the fasting blood sugar in the '''Prevalence studies''' at the schools for seafarers, nurses, medical students and the kids schools.(not blood sugar).The 16-weeks '''intervention studies''' include learnings by short video sequences and self-monitoring of blood sugar with glucometer, and self-evaluation of diet and physical activity.[[File:Lifestyle Medicine Pillars.png|300px|right|The focus of Lifestyle Medicine is on these 6 pillars.]]
[[File:John Snow.jpg|thumb|John Snow in the early nineteenth century]]
[[File:Cholera in London 1866.gif|thumb|300px|Map of a later cholera outbreak in London, in 1866]] [[File:Choleramaplondon1866.png|thumb|right|300px|Legend for the map above]]

1. '&lt;nowiki/&gt;'''Prevalence studies''''

1.1 The-International-Maritime-Health-Database &lt;ref&gt;https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/z3cq5ciiev06y8v9duw7u/A-International-Maritime-Health-Database.docx?cloud_editor=word&amp;dl=0&amp;rlkey=pt0kdesvmagcxaa2wez3tmza3 &lt;/ref&gt;

1.2 Nursing Students Health Database &lt;ref&gt; https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/tcznmmd2y3nona5e3h1ro/The-Nursing-students-health-database.docx?cloud_editor=word&amp;dl=0&amp;rlkey=onbjh4o8ko1lzdvgyi8nlrotk &lt;/ref&gt;

1.3. Medical student's Health Database &lt;ref&gt;https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/f16h9b60u4gxgt56un2jf/The-Medical-students-Health-database.docx?cloud_editor=word&amp;dl=0&amp;rlkey=xyfqen5trdc5lniaovipl548n &lt;/ref&gt;

1.4. School childrens Health database &lt;ref&gt; https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/u6u50c8bxwhte9t2t6ck8/The-School-children-s-Health-database.docx?cloud_editor=word&amp;dl=0&amp;rlkey=zlyz5wn673wf7owettq3nx3h5 &lt;/ref&gt;

2. '''Intervention studies''' Englsh 
&lt;ref&gt;https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/oi6cx6tlwwvoko3ed37tn/Invitation-to-the-course-English.docx?cloud_editor=word&amp;dl=0&amp;rlkey=7kzg91tqfgjskxf5aji8khicx &lt;/ref&gt; Danish
&lt;ref&gt;https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/2qahc3q9hmf4skbvk77ab/Invitation-to-the-course-in-Danish.docx?cloud_editor=word&amp;dl=0&amp;rlkey=x63w8oqvarz284zg2btq2johv &lt;/ref&gt; Spanish &lt;ref&gt; https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/bn71inqeeth4o4mc1fjth/Invitation-to-the-course-Spanish.docx?cloud_editor=word&amp;dl=0&amp;rlkey=popmr1fnodh1v951v9l7k9ezv &lt;/ref&gt;

- General research protocol draft
&lt;ref&gt; https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/gau25oy5y1s57046icjt2/Research-protocol-draft.docx?cloud_editor=word&amp;dl=0&amp;rlkey=wat63e25ritmujwcpss8s4v0s &lt;/ref&gt;

- Health Promoting Schools &lt;ref&gt; https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/0rm7honrezbjwrcy3h3yk/Health-promoting-schools.docx?cloud_editor=word&amp;dl=0&amp;rlkey=673jyzcmwbfw7k9ui9nmtp0zh &lt;/ref&gt; 

- John Snow Institute bylaws &lt;ref&gt; https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/lccr7jtnga1u0x75117zn/John-Snow-revision-2-March-11.doc?cloud_editor=word&amp;dl=0&amp;rlkey=lz2gi7mslcoay5dzygg8h6n6r &lt;/ref&gt;

3. '''Publications and pptx''' 2016-2026 &lt;ref&gt;https://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Maritime_Health_Research_and_Education-NET/The_International_Type_2_Diabetes_Mellitus_and_Hypertension_Research_Group#The_John_Snow_Institute &lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt; https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/mw7ft423lkkpjoxywd2bf &lt;/ref&gt;

4. '''Strategies for research and implementation''' 

'''Prediabetes-Remission Research Network:'''
&lt;small&gt;Prof. Ing. MSc. Nailet Delgado; Dr. Olaf Jensen, MD, MPH, PhD, o147248@gmail.com; MSc.Ph.D. Bishal Gyawali (SDU); MSc.PhD Vivi Just-Nørregaard; Dr. Johan Hviid Andersen MD, PhD. Prof Århus University; Prof. MSc. Agnes Flores, UMECIT, Panama; Dr. Maite, Vacamonte, Panama; Bruno Nørdam, Randers; Dr. Maite Duque, Venezuela; Dr. Indira Santos Panama; Med.Stud. Ashley Lezcano, Panama; Dr. Antonio Roberto Abaya MD Filippines; Dr. Jen Mendoza, MD, Filippines; Dr. Andra Ergle MD, Latvia; Prof. MSc. Ingrid Morató, Tarragona/Cadiz, Spain; MBA Christian Acheampong, Turkey; Dr. Alejandro Martinez, MPH, Costa Rica; Dr. Med. Sci Finn Gyntelberg; NFA.and Bispebj. Hosp. Denmark,&lt;/small&gt;

==References==
[[Category:Prediabetes ]]
&lt;references /&gt;Education 1: Research Methodology &lt;ref&gt;https://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Maritime_Health_Research_and_Education-NET/EDUCATION/Education_module_links&lt;/ref&gt;</text>
      <sha1>pkepuiuzrog6tr78rb35wyk9dupbwmr</sha1>
    </revision>
    <revision>
      <id>2808064</id>
      <parentid>2808063</parentid>
      <timestamp>2026-05-09T14:42:07Z</timestamp>
      <contributor>
        <username>Saltrabook</username>
        <id>1417466</id>
      </contributor>
      <origin>2808064</origin>
      <model>wikitext</model>
      <format>text/x-wiki</format>
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= '''' The John Snow Research Institute -2026'''' =
Billions are at increased risk of developing metabolic syndromes with prediabetes, diabetes type 2, high blood pressure and overweight. All can lower their risks by staying physical active and eating well. For early identification of the risks we propose to register weight and height (Body Mass Index) and the fasting blood sugar in the '''Prevalence studies''' at the schools for seafarers, nurses, medical students and the kids schools.(not blood sugar).The 16-weeks '''intervention studies''' include learnings by short video sequences and self-monitoring of blood sugar with glucometer, and self-evaluation of diet and physical activity.[[File:Lifestyle Medicine Pillars.png|300px|right|The focus of Lifestyle Medicine is on these 6 pillars.]]
[[File:John Snow.jpg|thumb|John Snow in the early nineteenth century]]
[[File:Cholera in London 1866.gif|thumb|200px|Map of a later cholera outbreak in London, in 1866]] [[File:Choleramaplondon1866.png|thumb|right|200px|Legend for the map above]]

1. '&lt;nowiki/&gt;'''Prevalence studies''''

1.1 The-International-Maritime-Health-Database &lt;ref&gt;https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/z3cq5ciiev06y8v9duw7u/A-International-Maritime-Health-Database.docx?cloud_editor=word&amp;dl=0&amp;rlkey=pt0kdesvmagcxaa2wez3tmza3 &lt;/ref&gt;

1.2 Nursing Students Health Database &lt;ref&gt; https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/tcznmmd2y3nona5e3h1ro/The-Nursing-students-health-database.docx?cloud_editor=word&amp;dl=0&amp;rlkey=onbjh4o8ko1lzdvgyi8nlrotk &lt;/ref&gt;

1.3. Medical student's Health Database &lt;ref&gt;https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/f16h9b60u4gxgt56un2jf/The-Medical-students-Health-database.docx?cloud_editor=word&amp;dl=0&amp;rlkey=xyfqen5trdc5lniaovipl548n &lt;/ref&gt;

1.4. School childrens Health database &lt;ref&gt; https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/u6u50c8bxwhte9t2t6ck8/The-School-children-s-Health-database.docx?cloud_editor=word&amp;dl=0&amp;rlkey=zlyz5wn673wf7owettq3nx3h5 &lt;/ref&gt;

2. '''Intervention studies''' Englsh 
&lt;ref&gt;https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/oi6cx6tlwwvoko3ed37tn/Invitation-to-the-course-English.docx?cloud_editor=word&amp;dl=0&amp;rlkey=7kzg91tqfgjskxf5aji8khicx &lt;/ref&gt; Danish
&lt;ref&gt;https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/2qahc3q9hmf4skbvk77ab/Invitation-to-the-course-in-Danish.docx?cloud_editor=word&amp;dl=0&amp;rlkey=x63w8oqvarz284zg2btq2johv &lt;/ref&gt; Spanish &lt;ref&gt; https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/bn71inqeeth4o4mc1fjth/Invitation-to-the-course-Spanish.docx?cloud_editor=word&amp;dl=0&amp;rlkey=popmr1fnodh1v951v9l7k9ezv &lt;/ref&gt;

- General research protocol draft
&lt;ref&gt; https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/gau25oy5y1s57046icjt2/Research-protocol-draft.docx?cloud_editor=word&amp;dl=0&amp;rlkey=wat63e25ritmujwcpss8s4v0s &lt;/ref&gt;

- Health Promoting Schools &lt;ref&gt; https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/0rm7honrezbjwrcy3h3yk/Health-promoting-schools.docx?cloud_editor=word&amp;dl=0&amp;rlkey=673jyzcmwbfw7k9ui9nmtp0zh &lt;/ref&gt; 

- John Snow Institute bylaws &lt;ref&gt; https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/lccr7jtnga1u0x75117zn/John-Snow-revision-2-March-11.doc?cloud_editor=word&amp;dl=0&amp;rlkey=lz2gi7mslcoay5dzygg8h6n6r &lt;/ref&gt;

3. '''Publications and pptx''' 2016-2026 &lt;ref&gt;https://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Maritime_Health_Research_and_Education-NET/The_International_Type_2_Diabetes_Mellitus_and_Hypertension_Research_Group#The_John_Snow_Institute &lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt; https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/mw7ft423lkkpjoxywd2bf &lt;/ref&gt;

4. '''Strategies for research and implementation''' 

'''Prediabetes-Remission Research Network:'''
&lt;small&gt;Prof. Ing. MSc. Nailet Delgado; Dr. Olaf Jensen, MD, MPH, PhD, o147248@gmail.com; MSc.Ph.D. Bishal Gyawali (SDU); MSc.PhD Vivi Just-Nørregaard; Dr. Johan Hviid Andersen MD, PhD. Prof Århus University; Prof. MSc. Agnes Flores, UMECIT, Panama; Dr. Maite, Vacamonte, Panama; Bruno Nørdam, Randers; Dr. Maite Duque, Venezuela; Dr. Indira Santos Panama; Med.Stud. Ashley Lezcano, Panama; Dr. Antonio Roberto Abaya MD Filippines; Dr. Jen Mendoza, MD, Filippines; Dr. Andra Ergle MD, Latvia; Prof. MSc. Ingrid Morató, Tarragona/Cadiz, Spain; MBA Christian Acheampong, Turkey; Dr. Alejandro Martinez, MPH, Costa Rica; Dr. Med. Sci Finn Gyntelberg; NFA.and Bispebj. Hosp. Denmark,&lt;/small&gt;

==References==
[[Category:Prediabetes ]]
&lt;references /&gt;Education 1: Research Methodology &lt;ref&gt;https://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Maritime_Health_Research_and_Education-NET/EDUCATION/Education_module_links&lt;/ref&gt;</text>
      <sha1>0fo10xi4bffv6nht2f0nbwmeuwxct2l</sha1>
    </revision>
    <revision>
      <id>2808065</id>
      <parentid>2808064</parentid>
      <timestamp>2026-05-09T14:51:30Z</timestamp>
      <contributor>
        <username>Saltrabook</username>
        <id>1417466</id>
      </contributor>
      <origin>2808065</origin>
      <model>wikitext</model>
      <format>text/x-wiki</format>
      <text bytes="4753" sha1="2w4b8zy8psy5jq5bm1eoqonj27n1m2i" xml:space="preserve">[[File:ChatGPT Image 24 abr 2026, 08 16 04 a.m.png|thumb|]]
= '''' The John Snow Research Institute -2026'''' =
Billions are at increased risk of developing metabolic syndromes with prediabetes, diabetes type 2, high blood pressure and overweight. All can lower their risks by staying physical active and eating well. For early identification of the risks we propose to register weight and height (Body Mass Index) and the fasting blood sugar in the '''Prevalence studies''' at the schools for seafarers, nurses, medical students and the kids schools.(not blood sugar).The 16-weeks '''intervention studies''' include learnings by short video sequences and self-monitoring of blood sugar with glucometer, and self-evaluation of diet and physical activity.[[File:Lifestyle Medicine Pillars.png|300px|right|The focus of Lifestyle Medicine is on these 6 pillars.]]
[[File:John Snow.jpg|thumb|John Snow in the early nineteenth century]]
[[File:Cholera in London 1866.gif|thumb|250px|Map of a later cholera outbreak in London, in 1866]] [[File:Choleramaplondon1866.png|thumb|right|250px|Legend for the map above]]

1. '&lt;nowiki/&gt;'''Prevalence studies''''

1.1 The-International-Maritime-Health-Database &lt;ref&gt;https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/z3cq5ciiev06y8v9duw7u/A-International-Maritime-Health-Database.docx?cloud_editor=word&amp;dl=0&amp;rlkey=pt0kdesvmagcxaa2wez3tmza3 &lt;/ref&gt;

1.2 Nursing Students Health Database &lt;ref&gt; https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/tcznmmd2y3nona5e3h1ro/The-Nursing-students-health-database.docx?cloud_editor=word&amp;dl=0&amp;rlkey=onbjh4o8ko1lzdvgyi8nlrotk &lt;/ref&gt;

1.3. Medical student's Health Database &lt;ref&gt;https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/f16h9b60u4gxgt56un2jf/The-Medical-students-Health-database.docx?cloud_editor=word&amp;dl=0&amp;rlkey=xyfqen5trdc5lniaovipl548n &lt;/ref&gt;

1.4. School childrens Health database &lt;ref&gt; https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/u6u50c8bxwhte9t2t6ck8/The-School-children-s-Health-database.docx?cloud_editor=word&amp;dl=0&amp;rlkey=zlyz5wn673wf7owettq3nx3h5 &lt;/ref&gt;

2. '''Intervention studies''' Englsh 
&lt;ref&gt;https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/oi6cx6tlwwvoko3ed37tn/Invitation-to-the-course-English.docx?cloud_editor=word&amp;dl=0&amp;rlkey=7kzg91tqfgjskxf5aji8khicx &lt;/ref&gt; Danish
&lt;ref&gt;https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/2qahc3q9hmf4skbvk77ab/Invitation-to-the-course-in-Danish.docx?cloud_editor=word&amp;dl=0&amp;rlkey=x63w8oqvarz284zg2btq2johv &lt;/ref&gt; Spanish &lt;ref&gt; https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/bn71inqeeth4o4mc1fjth/Invitation-to-the-course-Spanish.docx?cloud_editor=word&amp;dl=0&amp;rlkey=popmr1fnodh1v951v9l7k9ezv &lt;/ref&gt;

- General research protocol draft
&lt;ref&gt; https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/gau25oy5y1s57046icjt2/Research-protocol-draft.docx?cloud_editor=word&amp;dl=0&amp;rlkey=wat63e25ritmujwcpss8s4v0s &lt;/ref&gt;

- Health Promoting Schools &lt;ref&gt; https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/0rm7honrezbjwrcy3h3yk/Health-promoting-schools.docx?cloud_editor=word&amp;dl=0&amp;rlkey=673jyzcmwbfw7k9ui9nmtp0zh &lt;/ref&gt; 

- John Snow Institute bylaws &lt;ref&gt; https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/lccr7jtnga1u0x75117zn/John-Snow-revision-2-March-11.doc?cloud_editor=word&amp;dl=0&amp;rlkey=lz2gi7mslcoay5dzygg8h6n6r &lt;/ref&gt;

3. '''Publications and pptx''' 2016-2026 &lt;ref&gt;https://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Maritime_Health_Research_and_Education-NET/The_International_Type_2_Diabetes_Mellitus_and_Hypertension_Research_Group#The_John_Snow_Institute &lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt; https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/mw7ft423lkkpjoxywd2bf &lt;/ref&gt;

4. '''Strategies for research and implementation''' 
tabolic syndromes with prediabetes, diabetes type 2, high blood pressure and overweight. All can lower their risks by staying physical active and eating well. For early identification of the risks we propose to register weight and height (Body Mass Index) and the fasting blood sugar in the '''Prevalence studies''' at the schools for seafarers, nurses, medical students and the kids schools.(not blood sugar).

'''Prediabetes-Remission Research Network:'''
&lt;small&gt;Prof. Ing. MSc. Nailet Delgado; Dr. Olaf Jensen, MD, MPH, PhD, o147248@gmail.com; MSc.Ph.D. Bishal Gyawali (SDU); MSc.PhD Vivi Just-Nørregaard; Dr. Johan Hviid Andersen MD, PhD. Prof Århus University; Prof. MSc. Agnes Flores, UMECIT, Panama; Dr. Maite, Vacamonte, Panama; Bruno Nørdam, Randers; Dr. Maite Duque, Venezuela; Dr. Indira Santos Panama; Med.Stud. Ashley Lezcano, Panama; Dr. Antonio Roberto Abaya MD Filippines; Dr. Jen Mendoza, MD, Filippines; Dr. Andra Ergle MD, Latvia; Prof. MSc. Ingrid Morató, Tarragona/Cadiz, Spain; MBA Christian Acheampong, Turkey; Dr. Alejandro Martinez, MPH, Costa Rica; Dr. Med. Sci Finn Gyntelberg; NFA.and Bispebj. Hosp. Denmark,&lt;/small&gt;

==References==
[[Category:Prediabetes ]]
&lt;references /&gt;Education 1: Research Methodology &lt;ref&gt;https://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Maritime_Health_Research_and_Education-NET/EDUCATION/Education_module_links&lt;/ref&gt;</text>
      <sha1>2w4b8zy8psy5jq5bm1eoqonj27n1m2i</sha1>
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      <id>2808068</id>
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        <username>Saltrabook</username>
        <id>1417466</id>
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      <text bytes="4760" sha1="dk27tm21k0djrarb8to7d2996cadifw" xml:space="preserve">[[File:ChatGPT Image 24 abr 2026, 08 16 04 a.m.png|thumb|]]
= '''' The John Snow Research Institute -2026'''' =
Billions are at increased risk of developing metabolic syndromes with prediabetes, diabetes type 2, high blood pressure and overweight. All can lower their risks by staying physical active and eating well. For early identification of the risks we propose to register weight and height (Body Mass Index) and the fasting blood sugar in the '''Prevalence studies''' at the schools for seafarers, nurses, medical students and the kids schools.(not blood sugar).The 16-weeks '''intervention studies''' include learnings by short video sequences and self-monitoring of blood sugar with glucometer, and self-evaluation of diet and physical activity.[[File:Lifestyle Medicine Pillars.png|300px|right|The focus of Lifestyle Medicine is on these 6 pillars.]]
[[File:John Snow.jpg|thumb|John Snow in the early nineteenth century]]
[[File:Cholera in London 1866.gif|thumb|250px|Map of a later cholera outbreak in London, in 1866]] [[File:Choleramaplondon1866.png|thumb|right|250px|Legend for the map above]]

1. '&lt;nowiki/&gt;'''Prevalence studies''''

1.1 The-International-Maritime-Health-Database &lt;ref&gt;https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/z3cq5ciiev06y8v9duw7u/A-International-Maritime-Health-Database.docx?cloud_editor=word&amp;dl=0&amp;rlkey=pt0kdesvmagcxaa2wez3tmza3 &lt;/ref&gt;

1.2 Nursing Students Health Database &lt;ref&gt; https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/tcznmmd2y3nona5e3h1ro/The-Nursing-students-health-database.docx?cloud_editor=word&amp;dl=0&amp;rlkey=onbjh4o8ko1lzdvgyi8nlrotk &lt;/ref&gt;

1.3. Medical student's Health Database &lt;ref&gt;https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/f16h9b60u4gxgt56un2jf/The-Medical-students-Health-database.docx?cloud_editor=word&amp;dl=0&amp;rlkey=xyfqen5trdc5lniaovipl548n &lt;/ref&gt;

1.4. School childrens Health database &lt;ref&gt; https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/u6u50c8bxwhte9t2t6ck8/The-School-children-s-Health-database.docx?cloud_editor=word&amp;dl=0&amp;rlkey=zlyz5wn673wf7owettq3nx3h5 &lt;/ref&gt;

2. '''Intervention studies''' Englsh 
&lt;ref&gt;https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/oi6cx6tlwwvoko3ed37tn/Invitation-to-the-course-English.docx?cloud_editor=word&amp;dl=0&amp;rlkey=7kzg91tqfgjskxf5aji8khicx &lt;/ref&gt; Danish
&lt;ref&gt;https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/2qahc3q9hmf4skbvk77ab/Invitation-to-the-course-in-Danish.docx?cloud_editor=word&amp;dl=0&amp;rlkey=x63w8oqvarz284zg2btq2johv &lt;/ref&gt; Spanish &lt;ref&gt; https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/bn71inqeeth4o4mc1fjth/Invitation-to-the-course-Spanish.docx?cloud_editor=word&amp;dl=0&amp;rlkey=popmr1fnodh1v951v9l7k9ezv &lt;/ref&gt;

- General research protocol draft
&lt;ref&gt; https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/gau25oy5y1s57046icjt2/Research-protocol-draft.docx?cloud_editor=word&amp;dl=0&amp;rlkey=wat63e25ritmujwcpss8s4v0s &lt;/ref&gt;

- Health Promoting Schools &lt;ref&gt; https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/0rm7honrezbjwrcy3h3yk/Health-promoting-schools.docx?cloud_editor=word&amp;dl=0&amp;rlkey=673jyzcmwbfw7k9ui9nmtp0zh &lt;/ref&gt; 

- John Snow Institute bylaws &lt;ref&gt; https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/lccr7jtnga1u0x75117zn/John-Snow-revision-2-March-11.doc?cloud_editor=word&amp;dl=0&amp;rlkey=lz2gi7mslcoay5dzygg8h6n6r &lt;/ref&gt;

3. '''Publications and pptx''' 2016-2026 &lt;ref&gt;https://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Maritime_Health_Research_and_Education-NET/The_International_Type_2_Diabetes_Mellitus_and_Hypertension_Research_Group#The_John_Snow_Institute &lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt; https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/mw7ft423lkkpjoxywd2bf &lt;/ref&gt;

4. '''Strategies for research and implementation''' 
For early identification of the risks we propose to register weight and height (Body Mass Index) and the fasting blood sugar in the '''Prevalence studies''' at the schools for seafarers, nurses, medical students and the kids schools.(no FPG).
A practical strategy for prediabetes remission in low- and middle-income countries (LMICs) must assume that laboratory capacity, workforce, and financing are constrained 


'''Prediabetes-Remission Research Network:'''
&lt;small&gt;Prof. Ing. MSc. Nailet Delgado; Dr. Olaf Jensen, MD, MPH, PhD, o147248@gmail.com; MSc.Ph.D. Bishal Gyawali (SDU); MSc.PhD Vivi Just-Nørregaard; Dr. Johan Hviid Andersen MD, PhD. Prof Århus University; Prof. MSc. Agnes Flores, UMECIT, Panama; Dr. Maite, Vacamonte, Panama; Bruno Nørdam, Randers; Dr. Maite Duque, Venezuela; Dr. Indira Santos Panama; Med.Stud. Ashley Lezcano, Panama; Dr. Antonio Roberto Abaya MD Filippines; Dr. Jen Mendoza, MD, Filippines; Dr. Andra Ergle MD, Latvia; Prof. MSc. Ingrid Morató, Tarragona/Cadiz, Spain; MBA Christian Acheampong, Turkey; Dr. Alejandro Martinez, MPH, Costa Rica; Dr. Med. Sci Finn Gyntelberg; NFA.and Bispebj. Hosp. Denmark,&lt;/small&gt;

==References==
[[Category:Prediabetes ]]
&lt;references /&gt;Education 1: Research Methodology &lt;ref&gt;https://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Maritime_Health_Research_and_Education-NET/EDUCATION/Education_module_links&lt;/ref&gt;</text>
      <sha1>dk27tm21k0djrarb8to7d2996cadifw</sha1>
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    <revision>
      <id>2808084</id>
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      <contributor>
        <username>Saltrabook</username>
        <id>1417466</id>
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      <origin>2808084</origin>
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      <text bytes="4805" sha1="e9t0k9dau1j2e2rrouvgeqc4171i29p" xml:space="preserve">[[File:ChatGPT Image 24 abr 2026, 08 16 04 a.m.png|thumb|]]
= '''' The John Snow Research Institute -2026'''' =
Billions are at increased risk of developing metabolic syndromes with prediabetes, diabetes type 2, high blood pressure and overweight. All can lower their risks by staying physical active and eating well. For early identification of the risks we propose to register weight and height (Body Mass Index) and the fasting blood sugar in the '''Prevalence studies''' at the schools for seafarers, nurses, medical students and the kids schools.(not blood sugar).The 16-weeks '''intervention studies''' include learnings by short video sequences and self-monitoring of blood sugar with glucometer, and self-evaluation of diet and physical activity.[[File:Lifestyle Medicine Pillars.png|300px|right|The focus of Lifestyle Medicine is on these 6 pillars.]]
[[File:John Snow.jpg|thumb|John Snow in the early nineteenth century]]
[[File:Cholera in London 1866.gif|thumb|250px|Map of a later cholera outbreak in London, in 1866]] [[File:Choleramaplondon1866.png|thumb|right|250px|Legend for the map above]]

1. '&lt;nowiki/&gt;'''Prevalence studies''''

1.1 The-International-Maritime-Health-Database &lt;ref&gt;https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/z3cq5ciiev06y8v9duw7u/A-International-Maritime-Health-Database.docx?cloud_editor=word&amp;dl=0&amp;rlkey=pt0kdesvmagcxaa2wez3tmza3 &lt;/ref&gt;

1.2 Nursing Students Health Database &lt;ref&gt; https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/tcznmmd2y3nona5e3h1ro/The-Nursing-students-health-database.docx?cloud_editor=word&amp;dl=0&amp;rlkey=onbjh4o8ko1lzdvgyi8nlrotk &lt;/ref&gt;

1.3. Medical student's Health Database &lt;ref&gt;https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/f16h9b60u4gxgt56un2jf/The-Medical-students-Health-database.docx?cloud_editor=word&amp;dl=0&amp;rlkey=xyfqen5trdc5lniaovipl548n &lt;/ref&gt;

1.4. School childrens Health database &lt;ref&gt; https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/u6u50c8bxwhte9t2t6ck8/The-School-children-s-Health-database.docx?cloud_editor=word&amp;dl=0&amp;rlkey=zlyz5wn673wf7owettq3nx3h5 &lt;/ref&gt;

2. '''Intervention studies''' Englsh 
&lt;ref&gt;https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/oi6cx6tlwwvoko3ed37tn/Invitation-to-the-course-English.docx?cloud_editor=word&amp;dl=0&amp;rlkey=7kzg91tqfgjskxf5aji8khicx &lt;/ref&gt; Danish
&lt;ref&gt;https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/2qahc3q9hmf4skbvk77ab/Invitation-to-the-course-in-Danish.docx?cloud_editor=word&amp;dl=0&amp;rlkey=x63w8oqvarz284zg2btq2johv &lt;/ref&gt; Spanish &lt;ref&gt; https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/bn71inqeeth4o4mc1fjth/Invitation-to-the-course-Spanish.docx?cloud_editor=word&amp;dl=0&amp;rlkey=popmr1fnodh1v951v9l7k9ezv &lt;/ref&gt;

- General research protocol draft
&lt;ref&gt; https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/gau25oy5y1s57046icjt2/Research-protocol-draft.docx?cloud_editor=word&amp;dl=0&amp;rlkey=wat63e25ritmujwcpss8s4v0s &lt;/ref&gt;

- Health Promoting Schools &lt;ref&gt; https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/0rm7honrezbjwrcy3h3yk/Health-promoting-schools.docx?cloud_editor=word&amp;dl=0&amp;rlkey=673jyzcmwbfw7k9ui9nmtp0zh &lt;/ref&gt; 

- John Snow Institute bylaws &lt;ref&gt; https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/lccr7jtnga1u0x75117zn/John-Snow-revision-2-March-11.doc?cloud_editor=word&amp;dl=0&amp;rlkey=lz2gi7mslcoay5dzygg8h6n6r &lt;/ref&gt;

3. '''Publications and pptx''' 2016-2026 &lt;ref&gt;https://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Maritime_Health_Research_and_Education-NET/The_International_Type_2_Diabetes_Mellitus_and_Hypertension_Research_Group#The_John_Snow_Institute &lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt; https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/mw7ft423lkkpjoxywd2bf &lt;/ref&gt;

4. '''Strategies for research and implementation''' 
For early identification of the risks we propose to register weight and height (Body Mass Index) and the fasting blood sugar in the '''Prevalence studies''' at the schools for seafarers, nurses, medical students and the kids schools.(no FPG).
A practical strategy for prediabetes remission in low- and middle-income countries (LMICs) must assume that laboratory capacity, workforce, and financing are constrained:
https://www.dropbox.com/t/jOgRZQWEEzMTNiBR     


'''Prediabetes-Remission Research Network:'''
&lt;small&gt;Prof. Ing. MSc. Nailet Delgado; Dr. Olaf Jensen, MD, MPH, PhD, o147248@gmail.com; MSc.Ph.D. Bishal Gyawali (SDU); MSc.PhD Vivi Just-Nørregaard; Dr. Johan Hviid Andersen MD, PhD. Prof Århus University; Prof. MSc. Agnes Flores, UMECIT, Panama; Dr. Maite, Vacamonte, Panama; Bruno Nørdam, Randers; Dr. Maite Duque, Venezuela; Dr. Indira Santos Panama; Med.Stud. Ashley Lezcano, Panama; Dr. Antonio Roberto Abaya MD Filippines; Dr. Jen Mendoza, MD, Filippines; Dr. Andra Ergle MD, Latvia; Prof. MSc. Ingrid Morató, Tarragona/Cadiz, Spain; MBA Christian Acheampong, Turkey; Dr. Alejandro Martinez, MPH, Costa Rica; Dr. Med. Sci Finn Gyntelberg; NFA.and Bispebj. Hosp. Denmark,&lt;/small&gt;

==References==
[[Category:Prediabetes ]]
&lt;references /&gt;Education 1: Research Methodology &lt;ref&gt;https://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Maritime_Health_Research_and_Education-NET/EDUCATION/Education_module_links&lt;/ref&gt;</text>
      <sha1>e9t0k9dau1j2e2rrouvgeqc4171i29p</sha1>
    </revision>
  </page>
  <page>
    <title>Portal:Complex Systems Digital Campus/CS-DC 2020 elections, manifestos and results</title>
    <ns>102</ns>
    <id>270595</id>
    <revision>
      <id>2808030</id>
      <parentid>2807001</parentid>
      <timestamp>2026-05-09T12:26:26Z</timestamp>
      <contributor>
        <username>AlbertoARasia-Filho</username>
        <id>3070945</id>
      </contributor>
      <comment>/* Manifesto – Candidature for the Executive Committee of UNESCO UniTwin CS-DC */</comment>
      <origin>2808030</origin>
      <model>wikitext</model>
      <format>text/x-wiki</format>
      <text bytes="62052" sha1="2n7sa55t9jsbtoedtav6w1iaj4bli2x" xml:space="preserve">&lt;nowiki&gt;**&lt;/nowiki&gt;Please ''login'' in Wikiversity and then use the ''&lt;nowiki/&gt;'edit''' button: your edition mode will be 'WYSIWYG'. Each Candidature with its manifesto can take inspiration from those for previous years.  

''Decision of the 2025 General Assembly 27th April:''

''The 2026 elections are starting the 27th April, the date of the General Assembly:''

''(i) There will be an election for Vice-President starting the 27 April 2026.''

''(ii) To save time and effort - Instead of an election for 1/3 of the Executive Committee'' ''(EC) for 2025 we propose to keep the existing EC and invite members of the Council '''not on the EC''' to offer themselves as members of an enlarged Executive Committee. If less than six people propose themselves, they will be co-opted onto the Executive Committee. If more than six propose themselves we will hold an election for 1/3 EC.''

The deadline for your candidature is Saturday 16th May 2026 at 24:00 CET. 

== Candidature for the New Vice-President for [2026, 2027] ==
 
'''Manifesto – Candidature for New Vice-President of UNESCO UniTwin CS-DC'''


== New Candidatures to the Executive Committee for [2026] ==

=== Manifesto – Candidature for the Executive Committee of UNESCO UniTwin CS-DC ===

'''Flavia Mori SARTI, Ph.D., Professor and Researcher, University of Sao Paulo, Brazil'''

I present my interest in being candidate for the CS-DC Executive Committee to contribute to the dissemination of knowledge in complex systems at the local and global level. I am representative of the University of Sao Paulo (USP) at the CS-DC since 2012. I work with complex systems modeling since the creation of the Interdisciplinary Research Group of Complex Systems Modelling at the School of Arts, Sciences and Humanities (EACH-USP) in 2006. Our research group succesfully implemented the first interdisciplinary graduate program titled Master in Complex Systems Modeling in Brazil, in 2010. I have been participating in the program commission since 2010, and I was coordinator of the graduate program from 2010 to 2014.

I have supervised 12 students in the program and two postdoctoral fellows, followed by publication of several book chapters and papers on complex systems applied to public policies, including models on tax evasion, health systems regulation, health insurance, food policy and nutrition programs, and complex networks on scientific collaboration and global food trade. I have been invited to present seminars and talks on complex systems applied to food systems, health economics, and public policy.

My goals in the CS-DC Executive Committee include:

* To disseminate the role of CS-DC in education and research on complex systems, especially in developing countries;
* To support and to engage other research groups working with complex systems for participation in the CS-DC;
* To contribute further with management and organization of CS-DC activities during the period of 2022-2024;
* To continue supporting capacity building in complex systems through supervision and other academic activities;
* To foster innovation, research and development strategies through complex systems applications in public policy and entrepreneurship.

'''Alberto A. Rasia-Filho, MD, Ph.D, Professor and Researcher, Federal University of Health Sciences of Porto Alegre (UFCSPA) and Federal University of Rio Grande do Sul (UFRGS), Brazil'''

Dear Councilors of the UNESCO CS-DC,

It is an honor to submit my candidacy for the CS-DC Executive Committee for 2026. Please let me introduce myself as a Full Professor of Physiology (UFCSPA), Supervisor in the Biosciences (UFCSPA) and Neuroscience Graduate Programs (UFRGS), and a researcher on human neuronal morphology, dendritic spines, synaptic plasticity, and social/emotional neural networks (National Council for Scientific and Technological Development, Brazil). Professional Identifier/ORCID: 0000-0003-4623-5916.

Currently, I am participating as head of the e-Team &quot;Morphological Heterogeneity&quot; in the UNESCO CS-DC, led by Prof. Enver Oruro Puma, Principal Investigator of the Morphodynamic Neuroscience and Behavior eLab CS-DC. We integrate morphodynamics across different scales of brain organization and neural network functions in complex systems, considering neuronal morphology itself as an emergent level of organization. The structure of neural cells and their connectivity within the brain volume are morphodynamic features with interactions from cellular morphogenetic elements, the local cell neighborhood, and synaptic connections. In turn, the emergent functions of networks are organized around a series of conceptual, experimental, and computational foundations.

These ideas were developed—and are now open to additional discussions—in the recent article from our group: “New Directions for Complex Systems in Contemporary Neuroscience: A Morphodynamic and Emergent Function Approach” (Research Topic: Theoretical and Computational Insights into Brain-Based Cognition/Frontiers in Computational Neuroscience). This represents an ongoing research line available for further collaborations in Complex Systems Science.

I will be (1) committed to the Action Plan 2026 (and beyond) from the current 2026-31 Action Plan/Complex Systems Digital Campus UNESCO UniTwin, (2) working to integrate interdisciplinary approaches and eTeams, sharing knowledge and opportunities for complex systems education and research, as well as (3) contributing to country and continent engagement and representation in line with worldwide aims, (4) including the academic formation of young scientists.

== Candidature for the New President for [2025, 2026] ==
 
'''Manifesto – Candidature for New President of UNESCO UniTwin CS-DC'''

'''Prof. Paul Bourgine''' : 

If elected, my main commitment is to create the conditions for a self-organized development of our UNESCO UniTwin CS-DC as autonomous communities of communities for our flagship TIMES and its Knowledge &amp; Knowhow Accelerator one-for-all &amp; all-for-one (KKA). We know now how to realize —for the two above commitments— the 3&lt;sup&gt;rd&lt;/sup&gt; UNESCO commitment, i.e., the ‘computational ecosystem’. It will use the mature part of Web 3.0, especially the InterPlanetary File System (IPFS). Thanks to our previous efforts especially of the two last years, the remaining work amount is ten times less than we were anticipating at the beginning of the 2&lt;sup&gt;nd&lt;/sup&gt; renewal of our UniTwin by UNESCO 2020-2026.  

If elected, my duty will be not only to fulfill entirely the commitments of our Cooperation Program with UNESCO but also starting an exponential increasing development wave for our UniTwin network (through their continent and country Councils) and of our e-Campus (through CS-DC’25 and e-Labs’26 Conferences especially for our Flagships for sustainable development). The Knowledge &amp; Knowhow Accelerator will directly benefit from 1) such conference series, 2) our past and new flagships for sustainable development and 3) a new decentralized strategy for collecting donations in our decentralized network of X-Legal Entities.

== New Candidatures to the Executive Committee for [2025] ==

=== Manifesto – Candidature for the Executive Committee of UNESCO UniTwin CS-DC ===
'''Prof. Silvius STANCIU, PhD in Economics, PhD in Engineering, Habil.'''

Full Professor, “Dunărea de Jos” University of Galați (UDJG), Romania

Editor-in-Chief, ''Journal of Agriculture and Rural Development Studies (JARDS)''

Former Vice-Rector, Former Director of DFCTT and CTT UGAL
----'''Dear Councillors,'''

It is a great honor for me to submit my candidacy for the Executive Committee of the UNESCO UniTwin Complex Systems Digital Campus (CS-DC). With more than '''30 years of experience in academia''', I am currently Full Professor and doctoral advisor at “Dunărea de Jos” University of Galați (UDJG), Romania — a public research university with a strong regional impact and a long-standing tradition in interdisciplinary education and innovation.

I hold two doctoral degrees — one in Economics and one in Engineering — and I am a habilitated professor. I have published '''163 ISI-indexed scientific articles''' and have a '''Clarivate H-index of 14'''. My research focuses on '''food security, circular economy, technological innovation, rural development''', and '''complex systems in agro-food value chains'''.

I am the founder and coordinator of Romania’s first doctoral program in ''Engineering and Management in Agriculture and Rural Development (IMADR)'', with '''9 PhD graduates''' and '''9 doctoral students''' currently under my supervision. I also serve as '''Editor-in-Chief''' of the ''Journal of Agriculture and Rural Development Studies (JARDS)'', dedicated to interdisciplinary research in sustainable food and rural systems.

Over the past decade, I have been involved as director or expert in '''more than 45 national and international research projects''', including Horizon-compatible initiatives and cross-border cooperation programs. I coordinated a '''Romania–Republic of Moldova cross-border project''' (2020–2021) and currently lead '''two new ROMD-funded projects''' entering implementation.

My former institutional leadership roles include:

* '''Vice-Rector for Research and Innovation'''
* '''Director of the Department for Institutional Development (DFCTT)''' and of the '''Technology Transfer Center (CTT UGAL)'''
* '''Member of national and international quality and research bodies''', including CNATDCU, ARACIS, and CMPTJ

----'''If elected, I am committed to:'''

* Expanding the CS-DC network in '''Eastern Europe and the Black Sea region''', enhancing scientific and territorial diversity;
* Supporting '''POEM''' and '''FOOD flagship programs''' through digital education, doctoral/postdoctoral collaboration, and innovation ecosystems;
* Promoting '''open science''', international e-seminars, and interdisciplinary MOOCs;
* Coordinating thematic initiatives in '''agro-complexity, food systems resilience''', and '''sustainable rural innovation'''.

As a representative of a '''UniTwin member institution''', I see this candidacy as a unique opportunity to strengthen UDJG’s role within the CS-DC ecosystem. I fully embrace the CS-DC mission to foster global collaboration, education, and research in complexity science.

I am ready to bring '''vision, experience, and energy''' to the Executive Committee and help shape the future of our UniTwin community.
----'''Sincerely,'''

'''Prof. Silvius STANCIU, PhD in Economics, PhD in Engineering, Habil.'''

Representative of “Dunărea de Jos” University of Galați (UDJG)

'''Professional Identifiers:'''

* Web of Science Author ID: R-8246-2017
* ORCID: 0000-0001-7697-0968
* Scopus ID: 36633317700
* Google Scholar: Silvius Stanciu
* ResearchGate: Silvius Stanciu

== New Candidatures to the Executive Committee for [2024] ==

'''Enver Oruro Puma, Ph.D., Principal Investigator of Neurocomputing, Social Simulation, and Complex Systems Laboratory at the Instituto Científico of Universidad Andina del Cusco, Peru''' 

Dear Councillor of the UNESCO UniTwin CS-DC. I am very honored to place my candidature for the UNESCO UniTwin CS-DC Executive Committee. I am Enver Miguel Oruro Puma, Ph.D., principal investigator of Neurocomputing, Social Simulation, and Complex Systems Laboratory at the Instituto Científico of Universidad Andina del Cusco, Peru (https://sites.google.com/view/orurolab/). Since 2009, I have promoted and organized conferences and academic events on Complex Systems in Latin America. Recently, I have promoted the area of computational neuroscience on infant attachment (https://sites.google.com/view/envermiguel/seminar-in-maternal-infant-relationship-studies).

It would be a great honor for me if given the opportunity to contribute to the Executive Committee of UNESCO UniTwin CS-DC in the integration of Complex System research groups in the Latin American Region. For this, I propose the creation of two periodical activities: 1) A Special Lectures Series on Complex Systems UNESCO UniTwin CS-DC oriented to experts on Complex Systems, and 2) A Invited Advanced Lectures UNESCO UniTwin CS-DC oriented to experts who do not identify explicitly with complex systems

'''Pierre Collet, full professor of Strasbourg University, on secondment to Universidad Andrés Bello, Instituto de Tecnología para la Innovación en Salud y Bienestar, Viña del Mar, Valparaiso, Chile'''.

Since 2012, I have contributed to the elaboration of the CS-DC Unesco UniTwin together with Paul Bourigne, Jeffrey Johnson and many others, and I have been co-coordinator of the CS-DC UniTwin with Cyrille Bertelle since its creation in 2014. Starting part of this great adventure has changed my academic and personal life: thanks to the UniTwin, I have changed my research from stochastic optimisation, artificial evolution and AI in general to complex systems and epistemology.

Participating in this UniTwin allowed me to make new contacts and start incredible projects that I could not have imagined before. It has even changed my life, as I am now living in Chile, having been recruited by ITISB, an institute founded by Carla Taramasco, the CS-DC representative for South America.

Together with Paul and others, we would like to revive UniTwin by preparing another world conference inspired by the great success of [https://cs-dc-15.org CS-DC'15] and also develop flagship projects such as POEM (Personalised Open Education for the Masses) and the [https://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Portal:Complex_Systems_Digital_Campus/E-Laboratory_on_complex_computational_ecosystems ECCE e-lab], which this year has welcomed a new very active [[Figures of Play/Les figures du Jeu e-team|Figures of Play]] that has started the [https://ludocorpus.org/ Ludocorpus] in France.

As said before, this incredible UniTwin adventure always pays off for those who invest in it and in its great challenge: to develop the new science of complex systems through research and education. Through its projects, it contributes to making the world a better place to live in, despite the constant attacks on science coming from the most unlikely places.

Science is the solution, not the problem, to many of the world's plagues. We must put our energy into developing it and defend it against all its detractors.

That is why I am once again standing for election to the Executive Committee of this great CS-DC UniTwin. Modern science is Complex Systems science. It is important that its beacon continues to illuminate the world, and we must invest our time and energy in it.

== Candidature Deputy President for [2024, 2025] ==
'''Jeffrey JOHNSON, Professor of Complexity Science and Design, The Open University, UK'''

I offer myself as a candidate both to be President and to the Executive Committee of The UNESCO UniTwin Complex Systems Digital Campus (CS-DC) so that I can help to drive it forward to achieve it goals.

I am particularly committed to our educational efforts. I have made four MOOCs on the FutureLearn Platform for CS-DC ( &lt;nowiki&gt;https://www.futurelearn.com/partners/unesco-unitwin-complex-systems-digital-campus&lt;/nowiki&gt; ): Global Systems Science (2015-16); Systems Thinking and Complexity (2017-18); First Steps in Data Science with Google Analytics (2018-19) and COVID-19 - Pandemics, Modelling and Policy (2020). CS-DC has a great opportunity to become the global university providing interdisciplinary education for a better world.

I am also committed to our research mission with UNESCO towards the achieving the U.N. Sustainable Development Goals. My own research on representing the dynamics of complex multilevel systems is relevant to many of the research initiatives of CS-DC.

I have extensive experience working within the complex systems community. I have run various coordination actions supporting research programmes funded by the European Commission, I am a founder member and past president of the Complex Systems Society, and I am Deputy-President of the CS-DC. I believe this experience will enable me to make a significant contribution the CS-DC over the next three years.

== New Elected President for [2023, 2024] ==
Paul BOURGINE, present President of the UNESCO UniTwin CS-DC, Complex Systems Institute of Paris 
I offer myself as a candidate to be President of The UNESCO UniTwin Complex Systems Digital Campus (CS-DC).
My previous commitment two years ago is below. The bad news is that it was not achieved. The good new is that we know now how to create 'autonomous community of autonomous communities' as a social network with IPFS (the InterPlanetary File System) like the new development of Wikipedia. 
If elected, my first commitment is to finish this job as quickly as possible. My second commitment is simultaneously to visit each country of the UniTwin for creating its country.CS-DC and its roadmap with young eTeams shared by their Universities with a senior scientific committee. The eTeam projects will have the opportunity to be submitted to the EU calls or other ones. 

Enver Oruro PhD, Head of Neurocomputing, Social Simulation and Complex Systems Laboratory, Universidad Andina del Cusco, Peru.
'''I would like to nominate Professor Paul Bourgine.'''

== New Elected Members to the Executive Committee for [2022,2023, 2024,2025] ==
'''2Dr Mohamed Abdellahi (Ould BABAH) Ebbe, Mauritania,''' 

* Senior Advisor for the CILSS Executif Secretary for international Partnership and formal General Director of the     Institut du Sahel/CILSS www.insah.org;

·       Commissionaire General of CILSS for Horticulture Universal  Expo of DOHA 2023-2024   &lt;nowiki&gt;https://www.dohaexpo2023.gov.qa/en/&lt;/nowiki&gt; with central thems:

'''CENTRAL THEME: GREEN DESERT, BETTER ENVIRONMENT'''

* Executive Director of the     Orthopterist Society (400 researchers among the globe) &lt;nowiki&gt;https://orthsoc.org/&lt;/nowiki&gt;
* We have organized our last     congress during 16-20 0ctober in Merida Mexique

&lt;nowiki&gt;https://ico2023mexico.com/&lt;/nowiki&gt;

By obtaining the honor of having your hoped-for confidence for continuing this post of member of the executive council of the CS-DC, I will work, in priority and in the short term on two main subjects:

## '''The transboundary plague of the     Desert Locust (Schistocerca gregaria (Forska l , 1775))''' This plague of the Desert     Locust of more than 3000 years that cites all our holy books (the Tourah,     the Bible and the Koran) and which continues to be present to this day and     to wreak devastating devastation. In case of invasion, it can affect the     agriculture and pastures of about 25 countries including those of the     poorest countries of the world, from Mauritania to India, while its best     and most effective strategy of struggle is preventive struggle by     targeting its first centers of gregarization which are very small in space     and much better known today. In 2005, the costs of its struggle in the     Sahel and North Africa amounted to half a billion dollars, with 8 million     farmers and pastoralists affected in the Sahel. It also massively invaded     Asia and Africa. 'East Africa in 2020. On this subject, I have spent 30     years studying and fighting and developing a national strategy against     this scourge which has made it possible to establish a whole prevention     model and an institutional, technical, operational mechanism. and     scientific effective in my country that can be adapted and copied and in     all other affected countries: Biogeography of the desert locust     Schistocerca gregaria, Forskal, 1775: Identification, characterization and     originality of a gregarious focus in central Mauritania (HR.HORS COLLEC.)     (French Edition) - Babah Ebbe, Mohamed Abdallahi | 9782705670573 |     Amazon.com.au | Books &lt;nowiki&gt;http://www.worldbank.org/en/news/feature/2010/01/07/improved-ways-to-prevent-the-desert-locust-in-mauritania-and-the-sahel&lt;/nowiki&gt;,     http: //     whatsnext.blogs.cnn.com/2012/02/02/in-mauritania-sunny-with-a-chance-of-locusts/ I was invited last year by Royal Society 20-21 may 2024 to moderate one session on locust research management (La plasticité des criquets et des abeilles dans un monde en mutation | Société royale) and in a “International Conference on New Technology and Concepts for Sustainable Management of Locusts and Grasshoppers” held from 2 to 7 June 2024 in Jinan, Shandong, China.We are also preparing our Orthopterist congress in Argentina during the next mars 2026  &lt;nowiki&gt;https://ico2026.com.ar&lt;/nowiki&gt;

'''All this is in addition of more than 110 publications or joint publications on the locust, its environment and management''' 

# '''Senior Adviser to the CILSS Executive Secretary for International Partnerships'''] [Assistance to Mauritania (or 3 months) in the preparation of the organisation of the Nouakchott+10 High-Level Forum on pastoralism held in Nouakchott from 6 to 8 November 2024, various advising for the international partnership and the mobilization of resources including preparation of the organization of a round table planned in OPEC Vienna Austria for the mobilization of Arabic and Islamic funds for the financing of the CILSS 2050 strategic plan
# '''The Sahel Institute (INSAH)     www.insah.org of the Permanent Interstate Committee for Drought Control     (CILSS)''' that I     lead and which has been doing extraordinary work for almost half a century     in the field of research and development of animal and plant production     techniques and also in the field of support for demographic, population     and development policies, in favor of the populations of our 13 Sahelian,     coastal and island member countries. This work covered the majority of     good practice technologies in the field of plant and animal production,     natural resource management, land rstauration, cultivation techniques,     post-harvest, machining, dehulling operations technology. / ginning,     Conservation and storage, good resilience practices

Research on the demographic dividend, gender and the empowerment of women and the Population / Development interrelations ... etc The results of all this work are contained in a database. data, online &lt;nowiki&gt;http://publications.insah.org/&lt;/nowiki&gt;, containing more than 1,500 books, scientific and technical articles that will have to be modernized and connected to the CS Meta data.

As General Commissionaire  of CILSS for Horticulture Universal  Expo of DOHA 2023-2024   &lt;nowiki&gt;https://www.dohaexpo2023.gov.qa/en/&lt;/nowiki&gt; with central thems:

'''CENTRAL THEME: GREEN DESERT, BETTER ENVIRONMENT''' I am working  in introducing as detailed below:

'''CILSS ''contribution to the improvement of sustainable horticultural agricultural production in a context of drought''''' 

'''I. PRESENTATION OF THE EXPO'''  

Expo 2023 in Doha is part of the fight against desertification. The Expo will be held from 2 October 2023 to 28 March 2024 under the theme &quot;'''''Green Desert, Better Environment'''''&quot;. The aim is to encourage, inspire and inform people about innovative solutions to reduce desertification. The exhibition will provide an international platform for participants, stakeholders, decision-makers, nongovernmental organizations and experts to address the global challenge of &quot;desertification&quot;, while making a valuable contribution to achieving a sustainable future. During the 6 months of the Expo, nearly 3 million visitors from over 80 countries are expected

The objectives of this Expo are in line with those of the CILSS, which seeks to improve the living conditions of the people of the Sahel in a sustainable manner. This is why the participation of CILSS in this Expo is important for the region and its vulnerable populations. 

'''OBJECTIVES OF EXPO 2023 DOHA, QATAR'''

Expo 2023 Doha, Qatar is defined by the following objectives:

-   Encourage horticultural innovation by focusing on Qatar's climate, water and soil.

-   Promote Expo 2023 in Doha, Qatar, as a catalyst for international investment and business opportunities.

-   To propose innovative actions that would allow humanity to fight against desertification more quickly and decisively before it is too late.

-   To build up useful environmental outputs for future generations.  

'''II. ORGANISATION OF THE CILSS PARTICIPATION'''

'''II.1. GOALS OF CILSS EXHIBITION:''' 

1. Sharing experiences and best practices,

2. Building International Partnership,

3. Promoting technology and innovation

Finally, I will continue to work actively with my colleagues on the Executive Board on all aspects of other cross-border scourges but also all aspects of improving agro-sylvo-pastoral production


'''Dr. Xabier E. Barandiaran, Lecturer at the University of the Basque Country (UPV/EHU), Department of Philosophy, Donostia - San Sebastian, Spain'''

I would like to present [https://xabier.barandiaran.net myself] as a candidate for the Executive Committee. I have been the representative and coordinator between CS-DC and the [https://ehu.eus University of the Basque Country] since 2013. I develop my academic research at the [https://ias-research.net IAS-Research Centre for Life, Mind, and Society], with a focus on the understanding of autonomous and complex adaptive systems (from biology to cognition, from brains to societies). I am the author of over 50 indexed publications on topics related to complex systems, philosophy of mind, complex epistemology, simulation models of the origins of life, minimal agency, evolutionary robotics, complex social network analysis, etc. I recently received the “Award for Distinguished Early-Career Investigator” by the International Society for Artificial Life. Overal I have been awarded with 7 different grants and have actively participated on 15 different research projects. I have also supervised 2 PhD thesis (4 more still in development) and I hold an extensive record of scientific and innovative management experience in different academic and public institutions as founder of research networks ReteCog.Net and FLOK Society – Buen Conocer and head of RDI at Barcelona City Council (2016-2018). I have also organized several national workshops, summer schools and conferences, and 2 international summer schools, 4 international workshops and one international conference. I am currently the Principal Investigator of a founded research project (with more than 30 research-collaborators) on a complex systems' approach to the concept of autonomy beyond its classical conception as an individual bounded property.

As part of my university's goal of fostering international collaboration and opening up e-learning and research initiatives I would like to get more deeply involved on CS-DC with the following goals:

* To desing the infrastructure, learning-experience, research-experience and content for distributed, open access and high-quality digital campus facilities.
* To involve local agents (student, teachers, researchers and institutions) on the initiative of the network.
* To foster collaboration, co-production and resource sharing between teaching and research facilities between priviledged richer countries and lower-income ones. In particular, but not exclusively, and for obvious reasons related to sharing the same language, to foster ''collaboration between European and Latin-american universities'', research initiatives and students through CS-DC.
* To develop at least one ''prototype'' of a MSc level online course (and research network module) around complex cognitive systems that can serve as a model for the other fields of the network.
* To develop a clear conceptual and communicative framework for CS-DC to be able to attract more participants, resources and broader attention and success as pioneering international initiative.


'''Dr. habil. László Barna Iantovics, Professor at “George Emil Palade” Univ. of Medicine, Pharmacy, Science and Technology of Tg. Mures, Romania'''

With the present manifesto, I would like to be a candidate for the CS-DC Executive Committee. I have been the representative of “George Emil Palade” University of Medicine, Pharmacy, Science and Technology of Targu Mures from Romania in CS-DC by many years.

Some of my research and academic activities were related to the complex systems, including: publications; organized conferences (e.g. Symposium on Understanding Intelligent and Complex Systems - UICS 2009; 1st Int. Conf. on Complexity and Intelligence of the Artificial and Natural Complex Systems Medical Applications of the Complex Systems. Biomedical Computing -CANS 2008; 1st Int. Conf. on Bio-Inspired Computational Methods Used for Difficult Problems Solving. Development of Intelligent and Complex Systems - BICS 2008); membership in conference committees (e.g. Int. Conf. Emergent Properties in Natural and Artificial Complex Systems - EPNACS 2007; Workshop on Complex Systems and Self-organization Modeling -CoSSoM 2009); Journal Special Issues (e.g. Special Issue on Complexity in Sciences and Artificial Intelligence; Special Issue on Understanding Complex Systems); membership in Journal’s Editorial Boards (e.g. Complex Adaptive Systems Modeling -CASM, SpringerOpen), and contribution to research performed in projects and projects coordination (Social network of machines- SOON; Hybrid Medical Complex Systems -ComplexMediSys). I am the director of the Research Center on Artificial Intelligence, Data Science and Smart Engineering (Artemis).

I would like to involve myself much deeper in the life and activities of the CS-DC community.

My principal objectives are:

* To involve junior and senior researchers from my university in activities regarding research and education related to complex systems.
* To involve universities and research institutes to actively contribute to the CS-DC development.
* To involve myself in the joint coordination with other CS-DC members of a doctoral and postdoctoral students’ group that will be involved in the CS-DC community works.
* To strengthen the research direction with the theme: applications of intelligent complex systems and machine intelligence measuring. One of the subtopics of interest will be the application of complex systems, artificial intelligence and data science in medicine, pharmacology, and healthcare.


'''Flavia Mori SARTI, Ph.D., Professor and Researcher, University of Sao Paulo, Brazil'''

I would like to present my candidature for the CS-DC Executive Committee in the period 2022-2024 to contribute to the dissemination of Complex Systems Science.

I have been representative of the University of Sao Paulo (USP) at the CS-DC since 2012, and I have been working with complex systems since the creation of the Interdisciplinary Research Group of Complex Systems Modelling at the School of Arts, Sciences and Humanities (EACH-USP) in 2006. Our research group succesfully implemented the first interdisciplinary graduate program (Master) in Complex Systems Modelling in Brazil, in 2010. I have been participating in the coordinating commission of the program since 2010, and I was coordinator of the graduate program from 2010 to 2014.

I have supervised seven students in the Master program, which resulted in thesis, book chapters, and papers published on the subject of complex systems, including models on tax evasion, health systems regulation, food policy and nutrition programs, and complex networks on scientific collaboration and international food trade. I also contributed to the organization of the e-Session &quot;Economics as a Complex Evolutionist System&quot; on the CS-DC'15 World e-conference in 2015, and have been invited to present seminars on complex systems applied to health economics, health technology assessment, and public policy of nutrition and health.

My goals in the CS-DC Executive Committee include:

* To disseminate the role of CS-DC in education and research on Complex Systems, especially in Brazil and other developing countries;
* To support and to engage other research groups working with Complex Systems for participation in the CS-DC;
* To contribute further with management and organization of CS-DC activities during the period of 2022-2024;
* To continue supporting capacity building in Complex Systems through the Complex Systems Modelling Program at USP;
* To participate in innovation, research and development activities based on the application of Complex Systems in public policy and entrepreneurship.


'''Pr Panos Argyarakis, Professor in the University of Thessaloniki, Greece.'''

I have been with the Complex Systems Society since its inception in 2004 by participating in the NEST projects Dysonet and Giacs which created CSS. My experience in the Executive Committee will be to contribute towards the spreading of the Complexity idea to various levels of education throughout the different countries. I am currently the PI in an Erasmus+ network that introduces new models of teaching and investigating how is education been affected for future generations. I can contribute in decision making for such important activities, and also serve as liaison with the European Commission, and the Complex Systems Society, due to my past experience. I have extended organizational experience by organizing several internationally meetings in this field that were attended by large audiences. My research interests are related to Complex systems and Networks. Scale-free, random, and small world networks. Dynamic properties on networks, Diffusion, spreading phenomena on networks, disease spreading. Phase transitions, percolation model, reaction-diffusion processes, trapping processes. Random walks.


'''Ali Moussaoui, Professor, University of Tlemcen, Department of Mathematics, Algeria,'''

I wish to present my candidature to become member of the executive committee of the CS-DC, I wish to develop collaborations with the partner universities in the field of complex systems. I wish to participate in the creation of international mixed laboratories and international masters on complex systems.

In the past, I was responsible for a master's degree entitled: modeling of complex systems in our department, I am currently responsible for a research team entitled: Modeling of complex systems in our laboratory, I was responsible for a Franco-Algerian project on the modeling of complex systems. My research skills are focused on the modeling of complex natural and biological systems.

'''Carlos Gershenson, Research Professor, Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México.'''

I was involved with CS-DC in its initial years in UNESCO's UniTwin, also representing UNAM. I have been editor-in-chief of Complexity Digest since 2007. I co-organized the Conference on Complex Systems in 2017. I am currently vice-president secretary of the Complex Systems Society (CSS).

I am a strong proponent of open online learning. I managed to start a collaboration between UNAM and Coursera, which has led to more than a hundred MOOCs and millions of enrolled students.

I would be interested in strengthening the relationship between CS-DC and CSS, as well as other organizations.

==Elected members to the Executive Committee for 2021 ==
'''Carlos J. BARRIOS H., PhD., Professor, Bucaramanga, Colombia '''

I write to express my interest to candidacy to be part of the CS-DC Executive Committee. I'm very motivated to develop actions to strengthen digital ecosystem supporting research and education proposals of our CS-DC Council. Among these years participating in the CS-DC group, I can see different ways to leverage the impact and the development of our actions with computational strategies, and now, I want to be part of the leadership council joined mutual visions.

My experience leading the Advanced Computing System for Latin America and Caribbean (SCALAC : http://scalac.redclara.net ) and as member of other leadership boards in international projects (mainly between Europe and Latin America) supports my candidature. (linkedin.com/in/carlosjaimebh) Also, my role as professor, director and researcher contributes to build the common vision of the CS-DC Council and the leadership of the CS- DC Executive Committee.


'''Mina TEICHER, Professor of Bar-Ilan University, Israël'''

I submit my candidacy to the Executive Committee of the CS Digital Campus. If elected I will work towards our following needs, using my past experience in Professional international societies, universities managements and the data industry : 

* We need in the near future to build an optimal and effective agreement with the Complex System Society.
* We need to build a business  plan for fund raising.
* We need to build a modular budget for 2021.
* We need to build a strategy for geographically extension. 
* We need to build a strategy for thematic  extension. 
* We need to build partnerships with the big multi national high tech Companies in network and in content. 


'''Yasmin MERALI, Professor of University of Hull, UK'''

This manifesto is connected with the ideals that I had as a founding member of our UniNet which was conceived as part of the FP7 ASSYST project.
CS-DC has come a long way since its initial conception. The way I see it, there are three categories that have grown to emerge as our core activities- 
* Capacity building through education and training in Complex Systems Science
* The application of Complex Systems Science to address global challenges
* The advancement of Complex Systems Science through research and development.

I believe this is a good time to link back to the inception of our UNITWIN which was in part inspired by considerations of issues at a human scale, and the desire to address the inequalities that divided the so-called developed and developing countries. This resonates strongly with the ambition of the  Sustainable Development Goals (SDGs) we are currently grappling with.
In the growth phase of the UNITWIN and CSDC we have been focused on extending the size of the network, and scaling up our educational offerings across the digital campus. In the next phase I believe we need to:
# understand and leverage the diversity and distinctive capabilities and resources (e.g. indigenous knowledge) of the countries in our network to develop a healthy ecosystem, and
# tailor the support that we provide to align with the diverse nature of their relational and social capital and their economic, political and environmental challenges and priorities with regard to the SDGs.  

I am concerned that if we do not explicitly design a social/ideational exchange mechanism that attends to these two imperatives, we will not have full, active participation of all member institutions, and the countries of the South that do not currently have champions in Europe will be marginalized.

If elected I would champion a strategy of organizing ourselves following the Complex Adaptive Systems paradigm, as a hyper network with dynamically connected local clusters. In practical terms I would like to begin by establishing the local (country-based) clusters and establishing a discourse that would allow us to map the diverse profiles, challenges and aspirations for the different countries. This would then form the basis for the development of a mechanism for shaping the meaningful collaborative development of our three core activities to deliver advances that are globally co-ordinated and locally responsive.

Personal Profile: I am Professor of Systems Thinking at the University of Hull and have served as Director of the Centre Systems Studies there. Prior to that I was Co-Director of the Doctoral Training Centre for Complex Systems Science at the University of Warwick. My research is transdisciplinary, focusing on the use of Complex Systems Science to enhance the resilience of socio-economic systems. I am an Expert advisor to the EU and I have significant experience of lecturing internationally as Visiting Professor in Asia, Europe and the USA.

'''Céline ROZENBLAT: Professor, University of Lausanne - Institut de géographie et de durabilité (IGD), Switzerland'''

I'm pleased to applied to become member of the CS-DC council.
As founding member of CS-DC, my university, the university of Lausanne, is very engaged in Complex sciences.
I would not only represent my university, but also social science as geographer and vice-president of the International Geographical Union and member of the International Science Council commission on Urban Health and Well being.
I would act in the council in specific programs to develop the reality of the Digital Campus of the Complex systems.

All these actions combine very ambitious interdisciplinary approaches, and in this perspective, we developed with CS-DC for 3 years the TIMES Flagship  Territorial Intelligence For Multilevel Equity And Sustainability. It comprises four main programs:

 '''SIRE''': Socially Intelligence Roadmap Ecosystem
 '''POLE:''' Personalized Open Lifelong Education
 '''WOSI:''' Worldwide Open Smart Innovation
 '''WOSP:''' Worldwide Open Stochastic Prediction 

In this perspective a MOOC « Healthy Urban system » is now in development, basing the interdisciplinary approach on the CS-DC Road-Map grid. It seems very useful and relevant in this implementation stage.
I would help to develop other programs in this perspective\[Ellipsis]


'''André TINDANO, Director General of CARFS (African Center for Research and Training in Synecoculture)'''

What motivates me to aspire to the position of member of the executive committee of CS DC is my long term participation in the promotion of sustainable development and my commitment to the sharing of knowledge and expertise.

My research interests Sustainable agriculture, ecology, nutrition, life science. I have a strong experience  in:
* Administration and management of development projects and programs;
* Accompaniment of associations and groups;
* Technical capacity building (animation of training sessions and reflection workshops).
* Action research;
* Sociological, socio-economic and economic studies.
* Development of development projects and programs;
* Training of trainers
* Results Based Management Training (RBM)
* Monitoring and evaluation of development programs and projects;
* Management of programs and development projects;
* Institutional development and organizational strengthening;
* Development and implementation of training / awareness / animation program;
* Very good knowledge of participatory methods
'''Guiou KOBAYASHI, Associate Professor at Federal University of ABC in São Paulo State, Brazil. '''

I worked with fault-tolerant computer systems for nuclear power plants and Metro signaling systems and recently my interests have evolved to resilience properties of Complex Systems. Traditionally, redundancy was the main feature for fault-tolerant and fail-safe systems, but the adaptability and the evolution of Complex Systems are the key elements for the resilience of these systems. How to characterize, design and implement these key elements in our future resilient systems? The Complex System - Digital Campus (CS-DC) is a way to create a world-wide community of researchers, philosophers and students to promote and discuss this kind of questions involving Complex Systems. For me, participating in its foundation was a great honor and I am very glad for the opportunity that I have had to contribute since 2012 in the consolidation of CS-DC.

Through this manifest I am applying to be one of the members of the new CS-DC's Executive Committee. I would like to help just a little more to strengthen and structure this fantastic community through which I had the opportunity to meet important people with very interesting works that expanded my knowledge of Complex Systems. Although my University and my personal contribution for CS-DC are very limited and small, I hope to continue to work with this great team.


'''Pierre COLLET, Professor of Computer Science, University of Strasbourg, France. Co-coordinator of the CS-DC UNESCO UniTwin'''

The CS-DC initiated by Paul Bourgine, Jeffrey Johnson, Cyrille Bertelle and many others has been an extraordinary adventure a) to instantiate as a UNESCO UniTwin and b) to develop and run since it was enacted in July 2014. Many a night have been spent on designing its inner workings, so that it can deliver an effective affordance for the scientists who wish to develop the science and teaching of Complex Systems. Indeed, many projects seeded in the CS-DC have come to fruition, showing the enormous potential of this fertile environment not only for research, but also for teaching: the BBB rooms set up by the CS-DC have not only made it possible for the CS-DC to organize conferences, but have also shown their potential as remote teaching rooms in many Universities around the world.

It has been an honour for me to be part of the development of the CS-DC since its beginning, but so much remains to be done!

In this manifesto, I hereby express my strong desire to continue developing the CS-DC in these trying times, when the effects of the pandemics stretch thin the social links that our research and teaching communities need most. My objectives for this new mandate are not only to deliver a new world conference (originally planned in 2020 but unfortunately delayed due to the high toll imposed on us all, teachers and researchers alike, by COVID-19) but also continue on developing not only efficient complex computational ecosystems (cheap powerful PARSEC machines have been installed in several universities) but more specifically remote teaching environments based on complex systems, to mitigate the terrible impact of the pandemic on face to face education, within the POEM CS-DC flagship, on which Paul Bourgine and myself have been working for many years now..


'''Mariana C. BROENS, Professor - UNESP - BRAZIL.'''

As members of the Executive Committee, our main challenge will be to raise, analyse and to discuss possible positive/negative ethical and political implications of the further development of the Complex Systems Science, and their application on studies of everyday social problems. In particular, We believe that the widespread use of complex system models and Big Data analytics can bring important questions about people's privacy, personal and corporate responsibility, widespread surveillance by public or private institutions, among many others, that should be deeply discussed in our community. Our contribution will be to raise and deepen these discussions from an interdisciplinary perspective.


'''Cyrille Bertelle, Professor in Computer Sciences,  University Le Havre, France, co-coordinator of the CS-DC UNESCO UniTwin'''

I am a candidate for the CS-DC Executive Committee to represent the University of Le Havre
Normandy, which is co-coordinator with the University of Strasbourg of the convention of
recognition of the CS-DC as UniTwin by UNESCO. The University of Le Havre has made
available to the community, resources and skills to provide digital collaborative tools for the
organization of the Councils and the CS-DC'15 virtual conference.

The objective I wish to take is to facilitate the involvement of member universities not only
by their representatives on the council but by allowing researchers from these member
institutions to join concrete and accessible actions.

Co-responsible in the past of a master's degree on complex systems and then of the creation
of the institute on complex systems in Normandie (France) in a multidisciplinary framework,
I have participated in the setting up of the project labeled by the French national program of
investments for the future and entitled &quot;Smart Port City&quot;. The aim is to think about the
future of territories in a sustainable development approach supported by new technologies
and concerned about the environment and the well-being of their citizens. My research skills
are focused on implementing the complexity of complex dynamic systems and networks,
crossing behavioral scales from the interaction of human behaviors to the technical
networks of the territory. 

The book &quot;complex systems, smart territories and mobility&quot; from
the Springer's Understanding Complex Systems series, which will be published in January
2021 (https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9783030593018) illustrates the research
coordination actions that I lead in these fields.


'''Slimane Ben Miled, Senior Researcher at Pasteur Institute of Tunis, Professor at ENIT'''

Our Tunisian consortium want to constitute a collaborative Research Training Programs to increase data science capacity related to health research in Africa by building trainings and enhancing institutional capacity at African academic institutions.
The academy/project is based on 4 pillars to build a training ecosystem for Data and Engineering Science in health.
# A platform of federated master’s programs with à la carte optional courses covering informatics/computer science, biomedical informatics, data science, statistics, and public health). Each program will keep its independence, with a mention to the academy label, and this platform will allow to enrich the training with optional modules, seminars, and courses in the partner institutions. New curricula will be created in relation to ethical issues.
# Network of Doctoral programs and Executive programs
# Platform of federated Business incubator and a career center offers training, support and funding for projects related to the project’s topic.

This challenge is in perfect agreement with the Sustainable Development Goal 3 and the CS-DC flagship PHYSIOMES (Personalized Health phYSIcally, sOcially and Mentally for Each in their networkS).


'''Masa Funabashi: researcher of open complex systems at Sony Computer Science Laboratories, Inc.'''

I would like to contribute to the executive committee of CS-DC on the following two pillars:
* Promote the FOOD (From smart agrOecOnomy to smart fooD) flagship project that aims to resolve the health-diet-environment trilemma through the promotion of sustainable food systems, in collaboration with the e-lab &quot;human augmentation of ecosystems&quot; members institution: Sony CSL, Synecoculture Association, CARFS, and those who wish to participate in CS-DC collaboration.
* Construct a basic e-learning content on Synecoculture and ecological literacy as a part of CS-DC MOOCs and perform initial trials, principally in ECOWAS countries, through the Sony CSL-CARFS collaboration.

Through the development of on-going activities in FOOD project and making synergy with other flagship projects, I would like to contribute CS-DC as a member of the executive committee and realize further extension toward the achievement of global sustainability goals such as SDGs.


'''Dr Mohamed Abdellahi (Ould BABAH) Ebbe, Mauritania, '''
* General Director of the Institut du Sahel/CILSS www.insah.org; 
* Executive Director of the Orthopterist Society (400 researchers among the globe) https://orthsoc.org/

By obtaining the honor of having your hoped-for confidence for this post of member of the executive council of the CS-DC, I will work, in priority and in the short term on two main subjects:
# '''The transboundary plague of the Desert Locust (Schistocerca gregaria (Forska l , 1775))''' This plague of the Desert Locust of more than 3000 years that cites all our holy books (the Tourah, the Bible and the Koran) and which continues to be present to this day and to wreak devastating devastation. In case of invasion, it can affect the agriculture and pastures of about 25 countries including those of the poorest countries of the world, from Mauritania to India, while its best and most effective strategy of struggle is preventive struggle by targeting its first centers of gregarization which are very small in space and much better known today. In 2005, the costs of its struggle in the Sahel and North Africa amounted to half a billion dollars, with 8 million farmers and pastoralists affected in the Sahel. It also massively invaded Asia and Africa. 'East Africa in 2020. On this subject, I have spent 30 years studying and fighting and developing a national strategy against this scourge which has made it possible to establish a whole prevention model and an institutional, technical, operational mechanism. and scientific effective in my country that can be adapted and copied and in all other affected countries: Biogeography of the desert locust Schistocerca gregaria, Forskal, 1775: Identification, characterization and originality of a gregarious focus in central Mauritania (HR.HORS COLLEC.) (French Edition) - Babah Ebbe, Mohamed Abdallahi | 9782705670573 | Amazon.com.au | Books http://www.worldbank.org/en/news/feature/2010/01/07/improved-ways-to-prevent-the-desert-locust-in-mauritania-and-the-sahel, http: // whatsnext.blogs.cnn.com/2012/02/02/in-mauritania-sunny-with-a-chance-of-locusts/
# '''The Sahel Institute (INSAH) www.insah.org of the Permanent Interstate Committee for Drought Control (CILSS)''' that I lead and which has been doing extraordinary work for almost half a century in the field of research and development of animal and plant production techniques and also in the field of support for demographic, population and development policies, in favor of the populations of our 13 Sahelian, coastal and island member countries. This work covered the majority of good practice technologies in the field of plant and animal production, natural resource management, land restauration, cultivation techniques, post-harvest, machining, dehulling operations technology. / ginning, Conservation and storage, good resilience practices

Research on the demographic dividend, gender and the empowerment of women and the Population / Development interrelations ... etc
The results of all this work are contained in a database. data, online http://publications.insah.org/, containing more than 1,500 books, scientific and technical articles that will have to be modernized and connected to the CS Meta data.

Finally, I will work actively with my colleagues on the Executive Board on all aspects of other cross-border scourges but also all aspects of improving agro-sylvo-pastoral production tools as well as the fight against poverty and food insecurity and nutrition in line with the goals (SDGs)


'''Dr. Habil. László Barna Iantovics, Associate Professor at “George Emil Palade” University of Medicine, Pharmacy, Science and Technology of Targu Mures, Romania.''' 

With the present manifesto, I would like to candidate as a member of the CS-DC Executive Committee. I am the representative of “George Emil Palade” University of Medicine, Pharmacy, Science and Technology of Targu Mures from Romania in CS-DC.

Some of my research and academic activities are related to the complex systems, including: publications, organization of conferences (e.g. Symposium on Understanding Intelligent and Complex Systems - UICS 2009; 1st Int. Conf. on Complexity and Intelligence of the Artificial and Natural Complex Systems Medical Applications of the Complex Systems. Biomedical Computing -CANS 2008; 1st Int. Conf. on Bio-Inspired Computational Methods Used for Difficult Problems Solving. Development of Intelligent and Complex Systems - BICS 2008), contribution to conference committees (e.g. Int. Conf. Emergent Proprieties in Natural and Artificial Complex Systems - EPNACS 2007; Workshop on Complex Systems and Self-organization Modeling -CoSSoM 2009), preparing journal special issues (e.g. Special Issue on Complexity in Sciences and Artificial Intelligence; Special Issue on Understanding Complex Systems), participating in journal’s editorial board (e.g. Complex Adaptive Systems Modeling -CASM, SpringerOpen), and contribution to research in projects and projects coordination (Social network of machines- SOON; Hybrid Medical Complex Systems -ComplexMediSys). I was the director of the center Advanced Computational Technologies – AdvCompTech in the frame of my university. At present, I am the director of the Center for Advanced Research in Information Technology from my university.

I would like much deeper involve myself in the life and activities of the CS-DC community.

My objectives:

* To involve junior and senior researchers from my university in activities regarding research and education. To motivate universities and research institutes from my country to contribute to CS-DC. I consider also universities and research institutes with that I have collaboration in the past.
* To PROPOSE the formation of a so-called doctoral and postdoctoral students group. In the case of doctoral and postdoctoral students probably in time more students would like to be involved in activities. In this framework, I suggest the organization yearly 3 times (from 4 to 4 months) workshops in that all the interested students could discuss, present their research and research in progress. With this occasion in the frame of workshops if there is interest could be established separate sessions with presentations also by B.Sc. and M.Sc. students.
* To PROPOSE the strengthening of the following research direction with the general topic: intelligent complex systems and machine intelligence measuring. One of the subtopic by interest will be complex systems approaches in medicine and healthcare. To be accomplishable this subject I propose in a first step the formation of a group of interested persons, after then the establishment of the functionality of the group, for example: discussions when are subjects that should be discussed etc.

==Elected members to the Executive Committee &amp; as (Deputy-)Presidents==


'''Jeffrey JOHNSON, Professor of Complexity Science and Design, The Open University, UK'''

I offer myself as a candidate both to be President and to the Executive Committee of  The UNESCO UniTwin Complex Systems Digital Campus (CS-DC) so that I can help to drive it forward to achieve it goals. 

I am particularly committed to our educational efforts. I have made four MOOCs on the FutureLearn Platform for CS-DC  ( https://www.futurelearn.com/partners/unesco-unitwin-complex-systems-digital-campus ): Global Systems Science (2015-16); Systems Thinking and Complexity (2017-18); First Steps in Data Science with Google Analytics (2018-19) and  COVID-19 - Pandemics, Modelling and Policy (2020). CS-DC has a great opportunity to become the global university providing interdisciplinary education for a better world.

I am also committed to our research mission with UNESCO towards the achieving the U.N. Sustainable Development Goals. My own research on representing the dynamics of complex multilevel systems is relevant to many of the research initiatives of CS-DC.

I have extensive experience working within the complex systems community. I have run various coordination actions supporting research programmes funded by the European Commission, I am a founder member and past president of the Complex Systems Society, and I am Deputy-President of the CS-DC. I believe this experience will enable me to make a significant contribution the CS-DC over the next three years.


'''Paul BOURGINE, present President of the UNESCO UniTwin CS-DC, Complex Systems Institute of Paris'''

I offer myself as a candidate both to be President and to the Executive Committee of  The UNESCO UniTwin Complex Systems Digital Campus (CS-DC).

If elected, my main commitment is to create the conditions for a self-organized development of our UniTwin UNESCO CS-DC as autonomous communities of communities. This self-similar development will be the case both for the two main branches the UniTwin branch of our institutional members and the global eCampus branches of our individual scientific members:
* for the UniTwin branch, the communities of communities are a territorial cascade with Smart Continents, smart countries, smart cities for their sustainable development according our flagship TIMES (Territorial Intelligence for Multilevel Equity and Sustainability). The roadmap is always the same, i.e. the cascade of the 17 Sustainable Development Goals and their 169 Targets: but their relative importance and coherence within this cascade vary from one territory to the others. The institutional members of the UniTwin branch have signed their agreement with the Cooperation Programme signed with UNESCO. In 2021, the CS-DC will ask for a cascade of agreements inside each institutional member, in order to have a &quot;one for all&quot; amplification within the other branch, the e-campus branch. 
* for the eCampus branch, the cascade of communities is along the refinement cascades when studying the theoretical and experimental challenges of complex systems. With Smart Continents'21, scientists are proposing their individual challenges that enact basic communities and communities of communities within the e-departments. In the &quot;all for one&quot; return, the roadmap of each university is the cascade of roadmaps within the eCampus where the University has at least one member. Furthermore each community can organise a monthly e-seminar or e-session in workshop as well as in CS-DC'21 for recorded advanced introductions. Such advanced introductions can be the basis for curriculum largely shared by the set of Universities having members in the  community cascade of the curriculum.

This &quot;accelerator of knowledge and knowhow one for all and all for one&quot; will first benefit to the student curriculum through the flagship POEM (Personalized Open Education for the Masses). This accelerator can be extended through the flagship POLE (Personalized Open Lifelong Education) for a lifelong education. This extended accelerator will be open to all, independently of previously achieved academic levels, respectful of the diversity of social and cultural environments and in a higher and higher inclusive way including refugees, migrants and primary people. genders, religions or ways of life.</text>
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      <text bytes="62241" sha1="bmv6yxgj010162ap1zp4xoj6tcdgzxh" xml:space="preserve">&lt;nowiki&gt;**&lt;/nowiki&gt;Please ''login'' in Wikiversity and then use the ''&lt;nowiki/&gt;'edit''' button: your edition mode will be 'WYSIWYG'. Each Candidature with its manifesto can take inspiration from those for previous years.  

''Decision of the 2025 General Assembly 27th April:''

''The 2026 elections are starting the 27th April, the date of the General Assembly:''

''(i) There will be an election for Vice-President starting the 27 April 2026.''

''(ii) To save time and effort - Instead of an election for 1/3 of the Executive Committee'' ''(EC) for 2025 we propose to keep the existing EC and invite members of the Council '''not on the EC''' to offer themselves as members of an enlarged Executive Committee. If less than six people propose themselves, they will be co-opted onto the Executive Committee. If more than six propose themselves we will hold an election for 1/3 EC.''

The deadline for your candidature is Saturday 16th May 2026 at 24:00 CET. 

== Candidature for the New Vice-President for [2026, 2027] ==
 
'''Manifesto – Candidature for New Vice-President of UNESCO UniTwin CS-DC'''


== New Candidatures to the Executive Committee for [2026] ==

=== Manifesto – Candidature for the Executive Committee of UNESCO UniTwin CS-DC ===

'''Flavia Mori SARTI, Ph.D., Professor and Researcher, University of Sao Paulo, Brazil'''

I present my interest in being candidate for the CS-DC Executive Committee to contribute to the dissemination of knowledge in complex systems at the local and global level. I am representative of the University of Sao Paulo (USP) at the CS-DC since 2012. I work with complex systems modeling since the creation of the Interdisciplinary Research Group of Complex Systems Modelling at the School of Arts, Sciences and Humanities (EACH-USP) in 2006. Our research group succesfully implemented the first interdisciplinary graduate program titled Master in Complex Systems Modeling in Brazil, in 2010. I have been participating in the program commission since 2010, and I was coordinator of the graduate program from 2010 to 2014.

I have supervised 12 students in the program and two postdoctoral fellows, followed by publication of several book chapters and papers on complex systems applied to public policies, including models on tax evasion, health systems regulation, health insurance, food policy and nutrition programs, and complex networks on scientific collaboration and global food trade. I have been invited to present seminars and talks on complex systems applied to food systems, health economics, and public policy.

My goals in the CS-DC Executive Committee include:

* To disseminate the role of CS-DC in education and research on complex systems, especially in developing countries;
* To support and to engage other research groups working with complex systems for participation in the CS-DC;
* To contribute further with management and organization of CS-DC activities during the period of 2022-2024;
* To continue supporting capacity building in complex systems through supervision and other academic activities;
* To foster innovation, research and development strategies through complex systems applications in public policy and entrepreneurship.
'''Alberto A. Rasia-Filho, MD, Ph.D, Professor and Researcher, Federal University of Health Sciences of Porto Alegre (UFCSPA) and Federal University of Rio Grande do Sul (UFRGS), Brazil'''

'''Alberto A. Rasia-Filho, MD, Ph.D, Professor and Researcher, Federal University of Health Sciences of Porto Alegre (UFCSPA) and Federal University of Rio Grande do Sul (UFRGS), Brazil'''

Dear Councilors of the UNESCO CS-DC,

It is an honor to submit my candidacy for the CS-DC Executive Committee for 2026. Please let me introduce myself as a Full Professor of Physiology (UFCSPA), Supervisor in the Biosciences (UFCSPA) and Neuroscience Graduate Programs (UFRGS), and a researcher on human neuronal morphology, dendritic spines, synaptic plasticity, and social/emotional neural networks (National Council for Scientific and Technological Development, Brazil). Professional Identifier/ORCID: 0000-0003-4623-5916.

Currently, I am participating as head of the e-Team &quot;Morphological Heterogeneity&quot; in the UNESCO CS-DC, led by Prof. Enver Oruro Puma, Principal Investigator of the Morphodynamic Neuroscience and Behavior eLab CS-DC. We integrate morphodynamics across different scales of brain organization and neural network functions in complex systems, considering neuronal morphology itself as an emergent level of organization. The structure of neural cells and their connectivity within the brain volume are morphodynamic features with interactions from cellular morphogenetic elements, the local cell neighborhood, and synaptic connections. In turn, the emergent functions of networks are organized around a series of conceptual, experimental, and computational foundations.

These ideas were developed—and are now open to additional discussions—in the recent article from our group: “New Directions for Complex Systems in Contemporary Neuroscience: A Morphodynamic and Emergent Function Approach” (Research Topic: Theoretical and Computational Insights into Brain-Based Cognition/Frontiers in Computational Neuroscience). This represents an ongoing research line available for further collaborations in Complex Systems Science.

I will be (1) committed to the Action Plan 2026 (and beyond) from the current 2026-31 Action Plan/Complex Systems Digital Campus UNESCO UniTwin, (2) working to integrate interdisciplinary approaches and eTeams, sharing knowledge and opportunities for complex systems education and research, as well as (3) contributing to country and continent engagement and representation in line with worldwide aims, (4) including the academic formation of young scientists.

== Candidature for the New President for [2025, 2026] ==
 
'''Manifesto – Candidature for New President of UNESCO UniTwin CS-DC'''

'''Prof. Paul Bourgine''' : 

If elected, my main commitment is to create the conditions for a self-organized development of our UNESCO UniTwin CS-DC as autonomous communities of communities for our flagship TIMES and its Knowledge &amp; Knowhow Accelerator one-for-all &amp; all-for-one (KKA). We know now how to realize —for the two above commitments— the 3&lt;sup&gt;rd&lt;/sup&gt; UNESCO commitment, i.e., the ‘computational ecosystem’. It will use the mature part of Web 3.0, especially the InterPlanetary File System (IPFS). Thanks to our previous efforts especially of the two last years, the remaining work amount is ten times less than we were anticipating at the beginning of the 2&lt;sup&gt;nd&lt;/sup&gt; renewal of our UniTwin by UNESCO 2020-2026.  

If elected, my duty will be not only to fulfill entirely the commitments of our Cooperation Program with UNESCO but also starting an exponential increasing development wave for our UniTwin network (through their continent and country Councils) and of our e-Campus (through CS-DC’25 and e-Labs’26 Conferences especially for our Flagships for sustainable development). The Knowledge &amp; Knowhow Accelerator will directly benefit from 1) such conference series, 2) our past and new flagships for sustainable development and 3) a new decentralized strategy for collecting donations in our decentralized network of X-Legal Entities.

== New Candidatures to the Executive Committee for [2025] ==

=== Manifesto – Candidature for the Executive Committee of UNESCO UniTwin CS-DC ===
'''Prof. Silvius STANCIU, PhD in Economics, PhD in Engineering, Habil.'''

Full Professor, “Dunărea de Jos” University of Galați (UDJG), Romania

Editor-in-Chief, ''Journal of Agriculture and Rural Development Studies (JARDS)''

Former Vice-Rector, Former Director of DFCTT and CTT UGAL
----'''Dear Councillors,'''

It is a great honor for me to submit my candidacy for the Executive Committee of the UNESCO UniTwin Complex Systems Digital Campus (CS-DC). With more than '''30 years of experience in academia''', I am currently Full Professor and doctoral advisor at “Dunărea de Jos” University of Galați (UDJG), Romania — a public research university with a strong regional impact and a long-standing tradition in interdisciplinary education and innovation.

I hold two doctoral degrees — one in Economics and one in Engineering — and I am a habilitated professor. I have published '''163 ISI-indexed scientific articles''' and have a '''Clarivate H-index of 14'''. My research focuses on '''food security, circular economy, technological innovation, rural development''', and '''complex systems in agro-food value chains'''.

I am the founder and coordinator of Romania’s first doctoral program in ''Engineering and Management in Agriculture and Rural Development (IMADR)'', with '''9 PhD graduates''' and '''9 doctoral students''' currently under my supervision. I also serve as '''Editor-in-Chief''' of the ''Journal of Agriculture and Rural Development Studies (JARDS)'', dedicated to interdisciplinary research in sustainable food and rural systems.

Over the past decade, I have been involved as director or expert in '''more than 45 national and international research projects''', including Horizon-compatible initiatives and cross-border cooperation programs. I coordinated a '''Romania–Republic of Moldova cross-border project''' (2020–2021) and currently lead '''two new ROMD-funded projects''' entering implementation.

My former institutional leadership roles include:

* '''Vice-Rector for Research and Innovation'''
* '''Director of the Department for Institutional Development (DFCTT)''' and of the '''Technology Transfer Center (CTT UGAL)'''
* '''Member of national and international quality and research bodies''', including CNATDCU, ARACIS, and CMPTJ

----'''If elected, I am committed to:'''

* Expanding the CS-DC network in '''Eastern Europe and the Black Sea region''', enhancing scientific and territorial diversity;
* Supporting '''POEM''' and '''FOOD flagship programs''' through digital education, doctoral/postdoctoral collaboration, and innovation ecosystems;
* Promoting '''open science''', international e-seminars, and interdisciplinary MOOCs;
* Coordinating thematic initiatives in '''agro-complexity, food systems resilience''', and '''sustainable rural innovation'''.

As a representative of a '''UniTwin member institution''', I see this candidacy as a unique opportunity to strengthen UDJG’s role within the CS-DC ecosystem. I fully embrace the CS-DC mission to foster global collaboration, education, and research in complexity science.

I am ready to bring '''vision, experience, and energy''' to the Executive Committee and help shape the future of our UniTwin community.
----'''Sincerely,'''

'''Prof. Silvius STANCIU, PhD in Economics, PhD in Engineering, Habil.'''

Representative of “Dunărea de Jos” University of Galați (UDJG)

'''Professional Identifiers:'''

* Web of Science Author ID: R-8246-2017
* ORCID: 0000-0001-7697-0968
* Scopus ID: 36633317700
* Google Scholar: Silvius Stanciu
* ResearchGate: Silvius Stanciu

== New Candidatures to the Executive Committee for [2024] ==

'''Enver Oruro Puma, Ph.D., Principal Investigator of Neurocomputing, Social Simulation, and Complex Systems Laboratory at the Instituto Científico of Universidad Andina del Cusco, Peru''' 

Dear Councillor of the UNESCO UniTwin CS-DC. I am very honored to place my candidature for the UNESCO UniTwin CS-DC Executive Committee. I am Enver Miguel Oruro Puma, Ph.D., principal investigator of Neurocomputing, Social Simulation, and Complex Systems Laboratory at the Instituto Científico of Universidad Andina del Cusco, Peru (https://sites.google.com/view/orurolab/). Since 2009, I have promoted and organized conferences and academic events on Complex Systems in Latin America. Recently, I have promoted the area of computational neuroscience on infant attachment (https://sites.google.com/view/envermiguel/seminar-in-maternal-infant-relationship-studies).

It would be a great honor for me if given the opportunity to contribute to the Executive Committee of UNESCO UniTwin CS-DC in the integration of Complex System research groups in the Latin American Region. For this, I propose the creation of two periodical activities: 1) A Special Lectures Series on Complex Systems UNESCO UniTwin CS-DC oriented to experts on Complex Systems, and 2) A Invited Advanced Lectures UNESCO UniTwin CS-DC oriented to experts who do not identify explicitly with complex systems

'''Pierre Collet, full professor of Strasbourg University, on secondment to Universidad Andrés Bello, Instituto de Tecnología para la Innovación en Salud y Bienestar, Viña del Mar, Valparaiso, Chile'''.

Since 2012, I have contributed to the elaboration of the CS-DC Unesco UniTwin together with Paul Bourigne, Jeffrey Johnson and many others, and I have been co-coordinator of the CS-DC UniTwin with Cyrille Bertelle since its creation in 2014. Starting part of this great adventure has changed my academic and personal life: thanks to the UniTwin, I have changed my research from stochastic optimisation, artificial evolution and AI in general to complex systems and epistemology.

Participating in this UniTwin allowed me to make new contacts and start incredible projects that I could not have imagined before. It has even changed my life, as I am now living in Chile, having been recruited by ITISB, an institute founded by Carla Taramasco, the CS-DC representative for South America.

Together with Paul and others, we would like to revive UniTwin by preparing another world conference inspired by the great success of [https://cs-dc-15.org CS-DC'15] and also develop flagship projects such as POEM (Personalised Open Education for the Masses) and the [https://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Portal:Complex_Systems_Digital_Campus/E-Laboratory_on_complex_computational_ecosystems ECCE e-lab], which this year has welcomed a new very active [[Figures of Play/Les figures du Jeu e-team|Figures of Play]] that has started the [https://ludocorpus.org/ Ludocorpus] in France.

As said before, this incredible UniTwin adventure always pays off for those who invest in it and in its great challenge: to develop the new science of complex systems through research and education. Through its projects, it contributes to making the world a better place to live in, despite the constant attacks on science coming from the most unlikely places.

Science is the solution, not the problem, to many of the world's plagues. We must put our energy into developing it and defend it against all its detractors.

That is why I am once again standing for election to the Executive Committee of this great CS-DC UniTwin. Modern science is Complex Systems science. It is important that its beacon continues to illuminate the world, and we must invest our time and energy in it.

== Candidature Deputy President for [2024, 2025] ==
'''Jeffrey JOHNSON, Professor of Complexity Science and Design, The Open University, UK'''

I offer myself as a candidate both to be President and to the Executive Committee of The UNESCO UniTwin Complex Systems Digital Campus (CS-DC) so that I can help to drive it forward to achieve it goals.

I am particularly committed to our educational efforts. I have made four MOOCs on the FutureLearn Platform for CS-DC ( &lt;nowiki&gt;https://www.futurelearn.com/partners/unesco-unitwin-complex-systems-digital-campus&lt;/nowiki&gt; ): Global Systems Science (2015-16); Systems Thinking and Complexity (2017-18); First Steps in Data Science with Google Analytics (2018-19) and COVID-19 - Pandemics, Modelling and Policy (2020). CS-DC has a great opportunity to become the global university providing interdisciplinary education for a better world.

I am also committed to our research mission with UNESCO towards the achieving the U.N. Sustainable Development Goals. My own research on representing the dynamics of complex multilevel systems is relevant to many of the research initiatives of CS-DC.

I have extensive experience working within the complex systems community. I have run various coordination actions supporting research programmes funded by the European Commission, I am a founder member and past president of the Complex Systems Society, and I am Deputy-President of the CS-DC. I believe this experience will enable me to make a significant contribution the CS-DC over the next three years.

== New Elected President for [2023, 2024] ==
Paul BOURGINE, present President of the UNESCO UniTwin CS-DC, Complex Systems Institute of Paris 
I offer myself as a candidate to be President of The UNESCO UniTwin Complex Systems Digital Campus (CS-DC).
My previous commitment two years ago is below. The bad news is that it was not achieved. The good new is that we know now how to create 'autonomous community of autonomous communities' as a social network with IPFS (the InterPlanetary File System) like the new development of Wikipedia. 
If elected, my first commitment is to finish this job as quickly as possible. My second commitment is simultaneously to visit each country of the UniTwin for creating its country.CS-DC and its roadmap with young eTeams shared by their Universities with a senior scientific committee. The eTeam projects will have the opportunity to be submitted to the EU calls or other ones. 

Enver Oruro PhD, Head of Neurocomputing, Social Simulation and Complex Systems Laboratory, Universidad Andina del Cusco, Peru.
'''I would like to nominate Professor Paul Bourgine.'''

== New Elected Members to the Executive Committee for [2022,2023, 2024,2025] ==
'''2Dr Mohamed Abdellahi (Ould BABAH) Ebbe, Mauritania,''' 

* Senior Advisor for the CILSS Executif Secretary for international Partnership and formal General Director of the     Institut du Sahel/CILSS www.insah.org;

·       Commissionaire General of CILSS for Horticulture Universal  Expo of DOHA 2023-2024   &lt;nowiki&gt;https://www.dohaexpo2023.gov.qa/en/&lt;/nowiki&gt; with central thems:

'''CENTRAL THEME: GREEN DESERT, BETTER ENVIRONMENT'''

* Executive Director of the     Orthopterist Society (400 researchers among the globe) &lt;nowiki&gt;https://orthsoc.org/&lt;/nowiki&gt;
* We have organized our last     congress during 16-20 0ctober in Merida Mexique

&lt;nowiki&gt;https://ico2023mexico.com/&lt;/nowiki&gt;

By obtaining the honor of having your hoped-for confidence for continuing this post of member of the executive council of the CS-DC, I will work, in priority and in the short term on two main subjects:

## '''The transboundary plague of the     Desert Locust (Schistocerca gregaria (Forska l , 1775))''' This plague of the Desert     Locust of more than 3000 years that cites all our holy books (the Tourah,     the Bible and the Koran) and which continues to be present to this day and     to wreak devastating devastation. In case of invasion, it can affect the     agriculture and pastures of about 25 countries including those of the     poorest countries of the world, from Mauritania to India, while its best     and most effective strategy of struggle is preventive struggle by     targeting its first centers of gregarization which are very small in space     and much better known today. In 2005, the costs of its struggle in the     Sahel and North Africa amounted to half a billion dollars, with 8 million     farmers and pastoralists affected in the Sahel. It also massively invaded     Asia and Africa. 'East Africa in 2020. On this subject, I have spent 30     years studying and fighting and developing a national strategy against     this scourge which has made it possible to establish a whole prevention     model and an institutional, technical, operational mechanism. and     scientific effective in my country that can be adapted and copied and in     all other affected countries: Biogeography of the desert locust     Schistocerca gregaria, Forskal, 1775: Identification, characterization and     originality of a gregarious focus in central Mauritania (HR.HORS COLLEC.)     (French Edition) - Babah Ebbe, Mohamed Abdallahi | 9782705670573 |     Amazon.com.au | Books &lt;nowiki&gt;http://www.worldbank.org/en/news/feature/2010/01/07/improved-ways-to-prevent-the-desert-locust-in-mauritania-and-the-sahel&lt;/nowiki&gt;,     http: //     whatsnext.blogs.cnn.com/2012/02/02/in-mauritania-sunny-with-a-chance-of-locusts/ I was invited last year by Royal Society 20-21 may 2024 to moderate one session on locust research management (La plasticité des criquets et des abeilles dans un monde en mutation | Société royale) and in a “International Conference on New Technology and Concepts for Sustainable Management of Locusts and Grasshoppers” held from 2 to 7 June 2024 in Jinan, Shandong, China.We are also preparing our Orthopterist congress in Argentina during the next mars 2026  &lt;nowiki&gt;https://ico2026.com.ar&lt;/nowiki&gt;

'''All this is in addition of more than 110 publications or joint publications on the locust, its environment and management''' 

# '''Senior Adviser to the CILSS Executive Secretary for International Partnerships'''] [Assistance to Mauritania (or 3 months) in the preparation of the organisation of the Nouakchott+10 High-Level Forum on pastoralism held in Nouakchott from 6 to 8 November 2024, various advising for the international partnership and the mobilization of resources including preparation of the organization of a round table planned in OPEC Vienna Austria for the mobilization of Arabic and Islamic funds for the financing of the CILSS 2050 strategic plan
# '''The Sahel Institute (INSAH)     www.insah.org of the Permanent Interstate Committee for Drought Control     (CILSS)''' that I     lead and which has been doing extraordinary work for almost half a century     in the field of research and development of animal and plant production     techniques and also in the field of support for demographic, population     and development policies, in favor of the populations of our 13 Sahelian,     coastal and island member countries. This work covered the majority of     good practice technologies in the field of plant and animal production,     natural resource management, land rstauration, cultivation techniques,     post-harvest, machining, dehulling operations technology. / ginning,     Conservation and storage, good resilience practices

Research on the demographic dividend, gender and the empowerment of women and the Population / Development interrelations ... etc The results of all this work are contained in a database. data, online &lt;nowiki&gt;http://publications.insah.org/&lt;/nowiki&gt;, containing more than 1,500 books, scientific and technical articles that will have to be modernized and connected to the CS Meta data.

As General Commissionaire  of CILSS for Horticulture Universal  Expo of DOHA 2023-2024   &lt;nowiki&gt;https://www.dohaexpo2023.gov.qa/en/&lt;/nowiki&gt; with central thems:

'''CENTRAL THEME: GREEN DESERT, BETTER ENVIRONMENT''' I am working  in introducing as detailed below:

'''CILSS ''contribution to the improvement of sustainable horticultural agricultural production in a context of drought''''' 

'''I. PRESENTATION OF THE EXPO'''  

Expo 2023 in Doha is part of the fight against desertification. The Expo will be held from 2 October 2023 to 28 March 2024 under the theme &quot;'''''Green Desert, Better Environment'''''&quot;. The aim is to encourage, inspire and inform people about innovative solutions to reduce desertification. The exhibition will provide an international platform for participants, stakeholders, decision-makers, nongovernmental organizations and experts to address the global challenge of &quot;desertification&quot;, while making a valuable contribution to achieving a sustainable future. During the 6 months of the Expo, nearly 3 million visitors from over 80 countries are expected

The objectives of this Expo are in line with those of the CILSS, which seeks to improve the living conditions of the people of the Sahel in a sustainable manner. This is why the participation of CILSS in this Expo is important for the region and its vulnerable populations. 

'''OBJECTIVES OF EXPO 2023 DOHA, QATAR'''

Expo 2023 Doha, Qatar is defined by the following objectives:

-   Encourage horticultural innovation by focusing on Qatar's climate, water and soil.

-   Promote Expo 2023 in Doha, Qatar, as a catalyst for international investment and business opportunities.

-   To propose innovative actions that would allow humanity to fight against desertification more quickly and decisively before it is too late.

-   To build up useful environmental outputs for future generations.  

'''II. ORGANISATION OF THE CILSS PARTICIPATION'''

'''II.1. GOALS OF CILSS EXHIBITION:''' 

1. Sharing experiences and best practices,

2. Building International Partnership,

3. Promoting technology and innovation

Finally, I will continue to work actively with my colleagues on the Executive Board on all aspects of other cross-border scourges but also all aspects of improving agro-sylvo-pastoral production


'''Dr. Xabier E. Barandiaran, Lecturer at the University of the Basque Country (UPV/EHU), Department of Philosophy, Donostia - San Sebastian, Spain'''

I would like to present [https://xabier.barandiaran.net myself] as a candidate for the Executive Committee. I have been the representative and coordinator between CS-DC and the [https://ehu.eus University of the Basque Country] since 2013. I develop my academic research at the [https://ias-research.net IAS-Research Centre for Life, Mind, and Society], with a focus on the understanding of autonomous and complex adaptive systems (from biology to cognition, from brains to societies). I am the author of over 50 indexed publications on topics related to complex systems, philosophy of mind, complex epistemology, simulation models of the origins of life, minimal agency, evolutionary robotics, complex social network analysis, etc. I recently received the “Award for Distinguished Early-Career Investigator” by the International Society for Artificial Life. Overal I have been awarded with 7 different grants and have actively participated on 15 different research projects. I have also supervised 2 PhD thesis (4 more still in development) and I hold an extensive record of scientific and innovative management experience in different academic and public institutions as founder of research networks ReteCog.Net and FLOK Society – Buen Conocer and head of RDI at Barcelona City Council (2016-2018). I have also organized several national workshops, summer schools and conferences, and 2 international summer schools, 4 international workshops and one international conference. I am currently the Principal Investigator of a founded research project (with more than 30 research-collaborators) on a complex systems' approach to the concept of autonomy beyond its classical conception as an individual bounded property.

As part of my university's goal of fostering international collaboration and opening up e-learning and research initiatives I would like to get more deeply involved on CS-DC with the following goals:

* To desing the infrastructure, learning-experience, research-experience and content for distributed, open access and high-quality digital campus facilities.
* To involve local agents (student, teachers, researchers and institutions) on the initiative of the network.
* To foster collaboration, co-production and resource sharing between teaching and research facilities between priviledged richer countries and lower-income ones. In particular, but not exclusively, and for obvious reasons related to sharing the same language, to foster ''collaboration between European and Latin-american universities'', research initiatives and students through CS-DC.
* To develop at least one ''prototype'' of a MSc level online course (and research network module) around complex cognitive systems that can serve as a model for the other fields of the network.
* To develop a clear conceptual and communicative framework for CS-DC to be able to attract more participants, resources and broader attention and success as pioneering international initiative.


'''Dr. habil. László Barna Iantovics, Professor at “George Emil Palade” Univ. of Medicine, Pharmacy, Science and Technology of Tg. Mures, Romania'''

With the present manifesto, I would like to be a candidate for the CS-DC Executive Committee. I have been the representative of “George Emil Palade” University of Medicine, Pharmacy, Science and Technology of Targu Mures from Romania in CS-DC by many years.

Some of my research and academic activities were related to the complex systems, including: publications; organized conferences (e.g. Symposium on Understanding Intelligent and Complex Systems - UICS 2009; 1st Int. Conf. on Complexity and Intelligence of the Artificial and Natural Complex Systems Medical Applications of the Complex Systems. Biomedical Computing -CANS 2008; 1st Int. Conf. on Bio-Inspired Computational Methods Used for Difficult Problems Solving. Development of Intelligent and Complex Systems - BICS 2008); membership in conference committees (e.g. Int. Conf. Emergent Properties in Natural and Artificial Complex Systems - EPNACS 2007; Workshop on Complex Systems and Self-organization Modeling -CoSSoM 2009); Journal Special Issues (e.g. Special Issue on Complexity in Sciences and Artificial Intelligence; Special Issue on Understanding Complex Systems); membership in Journal’s Editorial Boards (e.g. Complex Adaptive Systems Modeling -CASM, SpringerOpen), and contribution to research performed in projects and projects coordination (Social network of machines- SOON; Hybrid Medical Complex Systems -ComplexMediSys). I am the director of the Research Center on Artificial Intelligence, Data Science and Smart Engineering (Artemis).

I would like to involve myself much deeper in the life and activities of the CS-DC community.

My principal objectives are:

* To involve junior and senior researchers from my university in activities regarding research and education related to complex systems.
* To involve universities and research institutes to actively contribute to the CS-DC development.
* To involve myself in the joint coordination with other CS-DC members of a doctoral and postdoctoral students’ group that will be involved in the CS-DC community works.
* To strengthen the research direction with the theme: applications of intelligent complex systems and machine intelligence measuring. One of the subtopics of interest will be the application of complex systems, artificial intelligence and data science in medicine, pharmacology, and healthcare.


'''Flavia Mori SARTI, Ph.D., Professor and Researcher, University of Sao Paulo, Brazil'''

I would like to present my candidature for the CS-DC Executive Committee in the period 2022-2024 to contribute to the dissemination of Complex Systems Science.

I have been representative of the University of Sao Paulo (USP) at the CS-DC since 2012, and I have been working with complex systems since the creation of the Interdisciplinary Research Group of Complex Systems Modelling at the School of Arts, Sciences and Humanities (EACH-USP) in 2006. Our research group succesfully implemented the first interdisciplinary graduate program (Master) in Complex Systems Modelling in Brazil, in 2010. I have been participating in the coordinating commission of the program since 2010, and I was coordinator of the graduate program from 2010 to 2014.

I have supervised seven students in the Master program, which resulted in thesis, book chapters, and papers published on the subject of complex systems, including models on tax evasion, health systems regulation, food policy and nutrition programs, and complex networks on scientific collaboration and international food trade. I also contributed to the organization of the e-Session &quot;Economics as a Complex Evolutionist System&quot; on the CS-DC'15 World e-conference in 2015, and have been invited to present seminars on complex systems applied to health economics, health technology assessment, and public policy of nutrition and health.

My goals in the CS-DC Executive Committee include:

* To disseminate the role of CS-DC in education and research on Complex Systems, especially in Brazil and other developing countries;
* To support and to engage other research groups working with Complex Systems for participation in the CS-DC;
* To contribute further with management and organization of CS-DC activities during the period of 2022-2024;
* To continue supporting capacity building in Complex Systems through the Complex Systems Modelling Program at USP;
* To participate in innovation, research and development activities based on the application of Complex Systems in public policy and entrepreneurship.


'''Pr Panos Argyarakis, Professor in the University of Thessaloniki, Greece.'''

I have been with the Complex Systems Society since its inception in 2004 by participating in the NEST projects Dysonet and Giacs which created CSS. My experience in the Executive Committee will be to contribute towards the spreading of the Complexity idea to various levels of education throughout the different countries. I am currently the PI in an Erasmus+ network that introduces new models of teaching and investigating how is education been affected for future generations. I can contribute in decision making for such important activities, and also serve as liaison with the European Commission, and the Complex Systems Society, due to my past experience. I have extended organizational experience by organizing several internationally meetings in this field that were attended by large audiences. My research interests are related to Complex systems and Networks. Scale-free, random, and small world networks. Dynamic properties on networks, Diffusion, spreading phenomena on networks, disease spreading. Phase transitions, percolation model, reaction-diffusion processes, trapping processes. Random walks.


'''Ali Moussaoui, Professor, University of Tlemcen, Department of Mathematics, Algeria,'''

I wish to present my candidature to become member of the executive committee of the CS-DC, I wish to develop collaborations with the partner universities in the field of complex systems. I wish to participate in the creation of international mixed laboratories and international masters on complex systems.

In the past, I was responsible for a master's degree entitled: modeling of complex systems in our department, I am currently responsible for a research team entitled: Modeling of complex systems in our laboratory, I was responsible for a Franco-Algerian project on the modeling of complex systems. My research skills are focused on the modeling of complex natural and biological systems.

'''Carlos Gershenson, Research Professor, Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México.'''

I was involved with CS-DC in its initial years in UNESCO's UniTwin, also representing UNAM. I have been editor-in-chief of Complexity Digest since 2007. I co-organized the Conference on Complex Systems in 2017. I am currently vice-president secretary of the Complex Systems Society (CSS).

I am a strong proponent of open online learning. I managed to start a collaboration between UNAM and Coursera, which has led to more than a hundred MOOCs and millions of enrolled students.

I would be interested in strengthening the relationship between CS-DC and CSS, as well as other organizations.

==Elected members to the Executive Committee for 2021 ==
'''Carlos J. BARRIOS H., PhD., Professor, Bucaramanga, Colombia '''

I write to express my interest to candidacy to be part of the CS-DC Executive Committee. I'm very motivated to develop actions to strengthen digital ecosystem supporting research and education proposals of our CS-DC Council. Among these years participating in the CS-DC group, I can see different ways to leverage the impact and the development of our actions with computational strategies, and now, I want to be part of the leadership council joined mutual visions.

My experience leading the Advanced Computing System for Latin America and Caribbean (SCALAC : http://scalac.redclara.net ) and as member of other leadership boards in international projects (mainly between Europe and Latin America) supports my candidature. (linkedin.com/in/carlosjaimebh) Also, my role as professor, director and researcher contributes to build the common vision of the CS-DC Council and the leadership of the CS- DC Executive Committee.


'''Mina TEICHER, Professor of Bar-Ilan University, Israël'''

I submit my candidacy to the Executive Committee of the CS Digital Campus. If elected I will work towards our following needs, using my past experience in Professional international societies, universities managements and the data industry : 

* We need in the near future to build an optimal and effective agreement with the Complex System Society.
* We need to build a business  plan for fund raising.
* We need to build a modular budget for 2021.
* We need to build a strategy for geographically extension. 
* We need to build a strategy for thematic  extension. 
* We need to build partnerships with the big multi national high tech Companies in network and in content. 


'''Yasmin MERALI, Professor of University of Hull, UK'''

This manifesto is connected with the ideals that I had as a founding member of our UniNet which was conceived as part of the FP7 ASSYST project.
CS-DC has come a long way since its initial conception. The way I see it, there are three categories that have grown to emerge as our core activities- 
* Capacity building through education and training in Complex Systems Science
* The application of Complex Systems Science to address global challenges
* The advancement of Complex Systems Science through research and development.

I believe this is a good time to link back to the inception of our UNITWIN which was in part inspired by considerations of issues at a human scale, and the desire to address the inequalities that divided the so-called developed and developing countries. This resonates strongly with the ambition of the  Sustainable Development Goals (SDGs) we are currently grappling with.
In the growth phase of the UNITWIN and CSDC we have been focused on extending the size of the network, and scaling up our educational offerings across the digital campus. In the next phase I believe we need to:
# understand and leverage the diversity and distinctive capabilities and resources (e.g. indigenous knowledge) of the countries in our network to develop a healthy ecosystem, and
# tailor the support that we provide to align with the diverse nature of their relational and social capital and their economic, political and environmental challenges and priorities with regard to the SDGs.  

I am concerned that if we do not explicitly design a social/ideational exchange mechanism that attends to these two imperatives, we will not have full, active participation of all member institutions, and the countries of the South that do not currently have champions in Europe will be marginalized.

If elected I would champion a strategy of organizing ourselves following the Complex Adaptive Systems paradigm, as a hyper network with dynamically connected local clusters. In practical terms I would like to begin by establishing the local (country-based) clusters and establishing a discourse that would allow us to map the diverse profiles, challenges and aspirations for the different countries. This would then form the basis for the development of a mechanism for shaping the meaningful collaborative development of our three core activities to deliver advances that are globally co-ordinated and locally responsive.

Personal Profile: I am Professor of Systems Thinking at the University of Hull and have served as Director of the Centre Systems Studies there. Prior to that I was Co-Director of the Doctoral Training Centre for Complex Systems Science at the University of Warwick. My research is transdisciplinary, focusing on the use of Complex Systems Science to enhance the resilience of socio-economic systems. I am an Expert advisor to the EU and I have significant experience of lecturing internationally as Visiting Professor in Asia, Europe and the USA.

'''Céline ROZENBLAT: Professor, University of Lausanne - Institut de géographie et de durabilité (IGD), Switzerland'''

I'm pleased to applied to become member of the CS-DC council.
As founding member of CS-DC, my university, the university of Lausanne, is very engaged in Complex sciences.
I would not only represent my university, but also social science as geographer and vice-president of the International Geographical Union and member of the International Science Council commission on Urban Health and Well being.
I would act in the council in specific programs to develop the reality of the Digital Campus of the Complex systems.

All these actions combine very ambitious interdisciplinary approaches, and in this perspective, we developed with CS-DC for 3 years the TIMES Flagship  Territorial Intelligence For Multilevel Equity And Sustainability. It comprises four main programs:

 '''SIRE''': Socially Intelligence Roadmap Ecosystem
 '''POLE:''' Personalized Open Lifelong Education
 '''WOSI:''' Worldwide Open Smart Innovation
 '''WOSP:''' Worldwide Open Stochastic Prediction 

In this perspective a MOOC « Healthy Urban system » is now in development, basing the interdisciplinary approach on the CS-DC Road-Map grid. It seems very useful and relevant in this implementation stage.
I would help to develop other programs in this perspective\[Ellipsis]


'''André TINDANO, Director General of CARFS (African Center for Research and Training in Synecoculture)'''

What motivates me to aspire to the position of member of the executive committee of CS DC is my long term participation in the promotion of sustainable development and my commitment to the sharing of knowledge and expertise.

My research interests Sustainable agriculture, ecology, nutrition, life science. I have a strong experience  in:
* Administration and management of development projects and programs;
* Accompaniment of associations and groups;
* Technical capacity building (animation of training sessions and reflection workshops).
* Action research;
* Sociological, socio-economic and economic studies.
* Development of development projects and programs;
* Training of trainers
* Results Based Management Training (RBM)
* Monitoring and evaluation of development programs and projects;
* Management of programs and development projects;
* Institutional development and organizational strengthening;
* Development and implementation of training / awareness / animation program;
* Very good knowledge of participatory methods
'''Guiou KOBAYASHI, Associate Professor at Federal University of ABC in São Paulo State, Brazil. '''

I worked with fault-tolerant computer systems for nuclear power plants and Metro signaling systems and recently my interests have evolved to resilience properties of Complex Systems. Traditionally, redundancy was the main feature for fault-tolerant and fail-safe systems, but the adaptability and the evolution of Complex Systems are the key elements for the resilience of these systems. How to characterize, design and implement these key elements in our future resilient systems? The Complex System - Digital Campus (CS-DC) is a way to create a world-wide community of researchers, philosophers and students to promote and discuss this kind of questions involving Complex Systems. For me, participating in its foundation was a great honor and I am very glad for the opportunity that I have had to contribute since 2012 in the consolidation of CS-DC.

Through this manifest I am applying to be one of the members of the new CS-DC's Executive Committee. I would like to help just a little more to strengthen and structure this fantastic community through which I had the opportunity to meet important people with very interesting works that expanded my knowledge of Complex Systems. Although my University and my personal contribution for CS-DC are very limited and small, I hope to continue to work with this great team.


'''Pierre COLLET, Professor of Computer Science, University of Strasbourg, France. Co-coordinator of the CS-DC UNESCO UniTwin'''

The CS-DC initiated by Paul Bourgine, Jeffrey Johnson, Cyrille Bertelle and many others has been an extraordinary adventure a) to instantiate as a UNESCO UniTwin and b) to develop and run since it was enacted in July 2014. Many a night have been spent on designing its inner workings, so that it can deliver an effective affordance for the scientists who wish to develop the science and teaching of Complex Systems. Indeed, many projects seeded in the CS-DC have come to fruition, showing the enormous potential of this fertile environment not only for research, but also for teaching: the BBB rooms set up by the CS-DC have not only made it possible for the CS-DC to organize conferences, but have also shown their potential as remote teaching rooms in many Universities around the world.

It has been an honour for me to be part of the development of the CS-DC since its beginning, but so much remains to be done!

In this manifesto, I hereby express my strong desire to continue developing the CS-DC in these trying times, when the effects of the pandemics stretch thin the social links that our research and teaching communities need most. My objectives for this new mandate are not only to deliver a new world conference (originally planned in 2020 but unfortunately delayed due to the high toll imposed on us all, teachers and researchers alike, by COVID-19) but also continue on developing not only efficient complex computational ecosystems (cheap powerful PARSEC machines have been installed in several universities) but more specifically remote teaching environments based on complex systems, to mitigate the terrible impact of the pandemic on face to face education, within the POEM CS-DC flagship, on which Paul Bourgine and myself have been working for many years now..


'''Mariana C. BROENS, Professor - UNESP - BRAZIL.'''

As members of the Executive Committee, our main challenge will be to raise, analyse and to discuss possible positive/negative ethical and political implications of the further development of the Complex Systems Science, and their application on studies of everyday social problems. In particular, We believe that the widespread use of complex system models and Big Data analytics can bring important questions about people's privacy, personal and corporate responsibility, widespread surveillance by public or private institutions, among many others, that should be deeply discussed in our community. Our contribution will be to raise and deepen these discussions from an interdisciplinary perspective.


'''Cyrille Bertelle, Professor in Computer Sciences,  University Le Havre, France, co-coordinator of the CS-DC UNESCO UniTwin'''

I am a candidate for the CS-DC Executive Committee to represent the University of Le Havre
Normandy, which is co-coordinator with the University of Strasbourg of the convention of
recognition of the CS-DC as UniTwin by UNESCO. The University of Le Havre has made
available to the community, resources and skills to provide digital collaborative tools for the
organization of the Councils and the CS-DC'15 virtual conference.

The objective I wish to take is to facilitate the involvement of member universities not only
by their representatives on the council but by allowing researchers from these member
institutions to join concrete and accessible actions.

Co-responsible in the past of a master's degree on complex systems and then of the creation
of the institute on complex systems in Normandie (France) in a multidisciplinary framework,
I have participated in the setting up of the project labeled by the French national program of
investments for the future and entitled &quot;Smart Port City&quot;. The aim is to think about the
future of territories in a sustainable development approach supported by new technologies
and concerned about the environment and the well-being of their citizens. My research skills
are focused on implementing the complexity of complex dynamic systems and networks,
crossing behavioral scales from the interaction of human behaviors to the technical
networks of the territory. 

The book &quot;complex systems, smart territories and mobility&quot; from
the Springer's Understanding Complex Systems series, which will be published in January
2021 (https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9783030593018) illustrates the research
coordination actions that I lead in these fields.


'''Slimane Ben Miled, Senior Researcher at Pasteur Institute of Tunis, Professor at ENIT'''

Our Tunisian consortium want to constitute a collaborative Research Training Programs to increase data science capacity related to health research in Africa by building trainings and enhancing institutional capacity at African academic institutions.
The academy/project is based on 4 pillars to build a training ecosystem for Data and Engineering Science in health.
# A platform of federated master’s programs with à la carte optional courses covering informatics/computer science, biomedical informatics, data science, statistics, and public health). Each program will keep its independence, with a mention to the academy label, and this platform will allow to enrich the training with optional modules, seminars, and courses in the partner institutions. New curricula will be created in relation to ethical issues.
# Network of Doctoral programs and Executive programs
# Platform of federated Business incubator and a career center offers training, support and funding for projects related to the project’s topic.

This challenge is in perfect agreement with the Sustainable Development Goal 3 and the CS-DC flagship PHYSIOMES (Personalized Health phYSIcally, sOcially and Mentally for Each in their networkS).


'''Masa Funabashi: researcher of open complex systems at Sony Computer Science Laboratories, Inc.'''

I would like to contribute to the executive committee of CS-DC on the following two pillars:
* Promote the FOOD (From smart agrOecOnomy to smart fooD) flagship project that aims to resolve the health-diet-environment trilemma through the promotion of sustainable food systems, in collaboration with the e-lab &quot;human augmentation of ecosystems&quot; members institution: Sony CSL, Synecoculture Association, CARFS, and those who wish to participate in CS-DC collaboration.
* Construct a basic e-learning content on Synecoculture and ecological literacy as a part of CS-DC MOOCs and perform initial trials, principally in ECOWAS countries, through the Sony CSL-CARFS collaboration.

Through the development of on-going activities in FOOD project and making synergy with other flagship projects, I would like to contribute CS-DC as a member of the executive committee and realize further extension toward the achievement of global sustainability goals such as SDGs.


'''Dr Mohamed Abdellahi (Ould BABAH) Ebbe, Mauritania, '''
* General Director of the Institut du Sahel/CILSS www.insah.org; 
* Executive Director of the Orthopterist Society (400 researchers among the globe) https://orthsoc.org/

By obtaining the honor of having your hoped-for confidence for this post of member of the executive council of the CS-DC, I will work, in priority and in the short term on two main subjects:
# '''The transboundary plague of the Desert Locust (Schistocerca gregaria (Forska l , 1775))''' This plague of the Desert Locust of more than 3000 years that cites all our holy books (the Tourah, the Bible and the Koran) and which continues to be present to this day and to wreak devastating devastation. In case of invasion, it can affect the agriculture and pastures of about 25 countries including those of the poorest countries of the world, from Mauritania to India, while its best and most effective strategy of struggle is preventive struggle by targeting its first centers of gregarization which are very small in space and much better known today. In 2005, the costs of its struggle in the Sahel and North Africa amounted to half a billion dollars, with 8 million farmers and pastoralists affected in the Sahel. It also massively invaded Asia and Africa. 'East Africa in 2020. On this subject, I have spent 30 years studying and fighting and developing a national strategy against this scourge which has made it possible to establish a whole prevention model and an institutional, technical, operational mechanism. and scientific effective in my country that can be adapted and copied and in all other affected countries: Biogeography of the desert locust Schistocerca gregaria, Forskal, 1775: Identification, characterization and originality of a gregarious focus in central Mauritania (HR.HORS COLLEC.) (French Edition) - Babah Ebbe, Mohamed Abdallahi | 9782705670573 | Amazon.com.au | Books http://www.worldbank.org/en/news/feature/2010/01/07/improved-ways-to-prevent-the-desert-locust-in-mauritania-and-the-sahel, http: // whatsnext.blogs.cnn.com/2012/02/02/in-mauritania-sunny-with-a-chance-of-locusts/
# '''The Sahel Institute (INSAH) www.insah.org of the Permanent Interstate Committee for Drought Control (CILSS)''' that I lead and which has been doing extraordinary work for almost half a century in the field of research and development of animal and plant production techniques and also in the field of support for demographic, population and development policies, in favor of the populations of our 13 Sahelian, coastal and island member countries. This work covered the majority of good practice technologies in the field of plant and animal production, natural resource management, land restauration, cultivation techniques, post-harvest, machining, dehulling operations technology. / ginning, Conservation and storage, good resilience practices

Research on the demographic dividend, gender and the empowerment of women and the Population / Development interrelations ... etc
The results of all this work are contained in a database. data, online http://publications.insah.org/, containing more than 1,500 books, scientific and technical articles that will have to be modernized and connected to the CS Meta data.

Finally, I will work actively with my colleagues on the Executive Board on all aspects of other cross-border scourges but also all aspects of improving agro-sylvo-pastoral production tools as well as the fight against poverty and food insecurity and nutrition in line with the goals (SDGs)


'''Dr. Habil. László Barna Iantovics, Associate Professor at “George Emil Palade” University of Medicine, Pharmacy, Science and Technology of Targu Mures, Romania.''' 

With the present manifesto, I would like to candidate as a member of the CS-DC Executive Committee. I am the representative of “George Emil Palade” University of Medicine, Pharmacy, Science and Technology of Targu Mures from Romania in CS-DC.

Some of my research and academic activities are related to the complex systems, including: publications, organization of conferences (e.g. Symposium on Understanding Intelligent and Complex Systems - UICS 2009; 1st Int. Conf. on Complexity and Intelligence of the Artificial and Natural Complex Systems Medical Applications of the Complex Systems. Biomedical Computing -CANS 2008; 1st Int. Conf. on Bio-Inspired Computational Methods Used for Difficult Problems Solving. Development of Intelligent and Complex Systems - BICS 2008), contribution to conference committees (e.g. Int. Conf. Emergent Proprieties in Natural and Artificial Complex Systems - EPNACS 2007; Workshop on Complex Systems and Self-organization Modeling -CoSSoM 2009), preparing journal special issues (e.g. Special Issue on Complexity in Sciences and Artificial Intelligence; Special Issue on Understanding Complex Systems), participating in journal’s editorial board (e.g. Complex Adaptive Systems Modeling -CASM, SpringerOpen), and contribution to research in projects and projects coordination (Social network of machines- SOON; Hybrid Medical Complex Systems -ComplexMediSys). I was the director of the center Advanced Computational Technologies – AdvCompTech in the frame of my university. At present, I am the director of the Center for Advanced Research in Information Technology from my university.

I would like much deeper involve myself in the life and activities of the CS-DC community.

My objectives:

* To involve junior and senior researchers from my university in activities regarding research and education. To motivate universities and research institutes from my country to contribute to CS-DC. I consider also universities and research institutes with that I have collaboration in the past.
* To PROPOSE the formation of a so-called doctoral and postdoctoral students group. In the case of doctoral and postdoctoral students probably in time more students would like to be involved in activities. In this framework, I suggest the organization yearly 3 times (from 4 to 4 months) workshops in that all the interested students could discuss, present their research and research in progress. With this occasion in the frame of workshops if there is interest could be established separate sessions with presentations also by B.Sc. and M.Sc. students.
* To PROPOSE the strengthening of the following research direction with the general topic: intelligent complex systems and machine intelligence measuring. One of the subtopic by interest will be complex systems approaches in medicine and healthcare. To be accomplishable this subject I propose in a first step the formation of a group of interested persons, after then the establishment of the functionality of the group, for example: discussions when are subjects that should be discussed etc.

==Elected members to the Executive Committee &amp; as (Deputy-)Presidents==


'''Jeffrey JOHNSON, Professor of Complexity Science and Design, The Open University, UK'''

I offer myself as a candidate both to be President and to the Executive Committee of  The UNESCO UniTwin Complex Systems Digital Campus (CS-DC) so that I can help to drive it forward to achieve it goals. 

I am particularly committed to our educational efforts. I have made four MOOCs on the FutureLearn Platform for CS-DC  ( https://www.futurelearn.com/partners/unesco-unitwin-complex-systems-digital-campus ): Global Systems Science (2015-16); Systems Thinking and Complexity (2017-18); First Steps in Data Science with Google Analytics (2018-19) and  COVID-19 - Pandemics, Modelling and Policy (2020). CS-DC has a great opportunity to become the global university providing interdisciplinary education for a better world.

I am also committed to our research mission with UNESCO towards the achieving the U.N. Sustainable Development Goals. My own research on representing the dynamics of complex multilevel systems is relevant to many of the research initiatives of CS-DC.

I have extensive experience working within the complex systems community. I have run various coordination actions supporting research programmes funded by the European Commission, I am a founder member and past president of the Complex Systems Society, and I am Deputy-President of the CS-DC. I believe this experience will enable me to make a significant contribution the CS-DC over the next three years.


'''Paul BOURGINE, present President of the UNESCO UniTwin CS-DC, Complex Systems Institute of Paris'''

I offer myself as a candidate both to be President and to the Executive Committee of  The UNESCO UniTwin Complex Systems Digital Campus (CS-DC).

If elected, my main commitment is to create the conditions for a self-organized development of our UniTwin UNESCO CS-DC as autonomous communities of communities. This self-similar development will be the case both for the two main branches the UniTwin branch of our institutional members and the global eCampus branches of our individual scientific members:
* for the UniTwin branch, the communities of communities are a territorial cascade with Smart Continents, smart countries, smart cities for their sustainable development according our flagship TIMES (Territorial Intelligence for Multilevel Equity and Sustainability). The roadmap is always the same, i.e. the cascade of the 17 Sustainable Development Goals and their 169 Targets: but their relative importance and coherence within this cascade vary from one territory to the others. The institutional members of the UniTwin branch have signed their agreement with the Cooperation Programme signed with UNESCO. In 2021, the CS-DC will ask for a cascade of agreements inside each institutional member, in order to have a &quot;one for all&quot; amplification within the other branch, the e-campus branch. 
* for the eCampus branch, the cascade of communities is along the refinement cascades when studying the theoretical and experimental challenges of complex systems. With Smart Continents'21, scientists are proposing their individual challenges that enact basic communities and communities of communities within the e-departments. In the &quot;all for one&quot; return, the roadmap of each university is the cascade of roadmaps within the eCampus where the University has at least one member. Furthermore each community can organise a monthly e-seminar or e-session in workshop as well as in CS-DC'21 for recorded advanced introductions. Such advanced introductions can be the basis for curriculum largely shared by the set of Universities having members in the  community cascade of the curriculum.

This &quot;accelerator of knowledge and knowhow one for all and all for one&quot; will first benefit to the student curriculum through the flagship POEM (Personalized Open Education for the Masses). This accelerator can be extended through the flagship POLE (Personalized Open Lifelong Education) for a lifelong education. This extended accelerator will be open to all, independently of previously achieved academic levels, respectful of the diversity of social and cultural environments and in a higher and higher inclusive way including refugees, migrants and primary people. genders, religions or ways of life.</text>
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      <text bytes="62054" sha1="mvz6a3tjjq8bzndvhemc6j0ggjkzxc0" xml:space="preserve">&lt;nowiki&gt;**&lt;/nowiki&gt;Please ''login'' in Wikiversity and then use the ''&lt;nowiki/&gt;'edit''' button: your edition mode will be 'WYSIWYG'. Each Candidature with its manifesto can take inspiration from those for previous years.  

''Decision of the 2025 General Assembly 27th April:''

''The 2026 elections are starting the 27th April, the date of the General Assembly:''

''(i) There will be an election for Vice-President starting the 27 April 2026.''

''(ii) To save time and effort - Instead of an election for 1/3 of the Executive Committee'' ''(EC) for 2025 we propose to keep the existing EC and invite members of the Council '''not on the EC''' to offer themselves as members of an enlarged Executive Committee. If less than six people propose themselves, they will be co-opted onto the Executive Committee. If more than six propose themselves we will hold an election for 1/3 EC.''

The deadline for your candidature is Saturday 16th May 2026 at 24:00 CET. 

== Candidature for the New Vice-President for [2026, 2027] ==
 
'''Manifesto – Candidature for New Vice-President of UNESCO UniTwin CS-DC'''


== New Candidatures to the Executive Committee for [2026] ==

=== Manifesto – Candidature for the Executive Committee of UNESCO UniTwin CS-DC ===

'''Flavia Mori SARTI, Ph.D., Professor and Researcher, University of Sao Paulo, Brazil'''

I present my interest in being candidate for the CS-DC Executive Committee to contribute to the dissemination of knowledge in complex systems at the local and global level. I am representative of the University of Sao Paulo (USP) at the CS-DC since 2012. I work with complex systems modeling since the creation of the Interdisciplinary Research Group of Complex Systems Modelling at the School of Arts, Sciences and Humanities (EACH-USP) in 2006. Our research group succesfully implemented the first interdisciplinary graduate program titled Master in Complex Systems Modeling in Brazil, in 2010. I have been participating in the program commission since 2010, and I was coordinator of the graduate program from 2010 to 2014.

I have supervised 12 students in the program and two postdoctoral fellows, followed by publication of several book chapters and papers on complex systems applied to public policies, including models on tax evasion, health systems regulation, health insurance, food policy and nutrition programs, and complex networks on scientific collaboration and global food trade. I have been invited to present seminars and talks on complex systems applied to food systems, health economics, and public policy.

My goals in the CS-DC Executive Committee include:

* To disseminate the role of CS-DC in education and research on complex systems, especially in developing countries;
* To support and to engage other research groups working with complex systems for participation in the CS-DC;
* To contribute further with management and organization of CS-DC activities during the period of 2022-2024;
* To continue supporting capacity building in complex systems through supervision and other academic activities;
* To foster innovation, research and development strategies through complex systems applications in public policy and entrepreneurship.


'''Alberto A. Rasia-Filho, MD, Ph.D, Professor and Researcher, Federal University of Health Sciences of Porto Alegre (UFCSPA) and Federal University of Rio Grande do Sul (UFRGS), Brazil'''

Dear Councilors of the UNESCO CS-DC,

It is an honor to submit my candidacy for the CS-DC Executive Committee for 2026. Please let me introduce myself as a Full Professor of Physiology (UFCSPA), Supervisor in the Biosciences (UFCSPA) and Neuroscience Graduate Programs (UFRGS), and a researcher on human neuronal morphology, dendritic spines, synaptic plasticity, and social/emotional neural networks (National Council for Scientific and Technological Development, Brazil). Professional Identifier/ORCID: 0000-0003-4623-5916.

Currently, I am participating as head of the e-Team &quot;Morphological Heterogeneity&quot; in the UNESCO CS-DC, led by Prof. Enver Oruro Puma, Principal Investigator of the Morphodynamic Neuroscience and Behavior eLab CS-DC. We integrate morphodynamics across different scales of brain organization and neural network functions in complex systems, considering neuronal morphology itself as an emergent level of organization. The structure of neural cells and their connectivity within the brain volume are morphodynamic features with interactions from cellular morphogenetic elements, the local cell neighborhood, and synaptic connections. In turn, the emergent functions of networks are organized around a series of conceptual, experimental, and computational foundations.

These ideas were developed—and are now open to additional discussions—in the recent article from our group: “New Directions for Complex Systems in Contemporary Neuroscience: A Morphodynamic and Emergent Function Approach” (Research Topic: Theoretical and Computational Insights into Brain-Based Cognition/Frontiers in Computational Neuroscience). This represents an ongoing research line available for further collaborations in Complex Systems Science.

I will be (1) committed to the Action Plan 2026 (and beyond) from the current 2026-31 Action Plan/Complex Systems Digital Campus UNESCO UniTwin, (2) working to integrate interdisciplinary approaches and eTeams, sharing knowledge and opportunities for complex systems education and research, as well as (3) contributing to country and continent engagement and representation in line with worldwide aims, (4) including the academic formation of young scientists.

== Candidature for the New President for [2025, 2026] ==
 
'''Manifesto – Candidature for New President of UNESCO UniTwin CS-DC'''

'''Prof. Paul Bourgine''' : 

If elected, my main commitment is to create the conditions for a self-organized development of our UNESCO UniTwin CS-DC as autonomous communities of communities for our flagship TIMES and its Knowledge &amp; Knowhow Accelerator one-for-all &amp; all-for-one (KKA). We know now how to realize —for the two above commitments— the 3&lt;sup&gt;rd&lt;/sup&gt; UNESCO commitment, i.e., the ‘computational ecosystem’. It will use the mature part of Web 3.0, especially the InterPlanetary File System (IPFS). Thanks to our previous efforts especially of the two last years, the remaining work amount is ten times less than we were anticipating at the beginning of the 2&lt;sup&gt;nd&lt;/sup&gt; renewal of our UniTwin by UNESCO 2020-2026.  

If elected, my duty will be not only to fulfill entirely the commitments of our Cooperation Program with UNESCO but also starting an exponential increasing development wave for our UniTwin network (through their continent and country Councils) and of our e-Campus (through CS-DC’25 and e-Labs’26 Conferences especially for our Flagships for sustainable development). The Knowledge &amp; Knowhow Accelerator will directly benefit from 1) such conference series, 2) our past and new flagships for sustainable development and 3) a new decentralized strategy for collecting donations in our decentralized network of X-Legal Entities.

== New Candidatures to the Executive Committee for [2025] ==

=== Manifesto – Candidature for the Executive Committee of UNESCO UniTwin CS-DC ===
'''Prof. Silvius STANCIU, PhD in Economics, PhD in Engineering, Habil.'''

Full Professor, “Dunărea de Jos” University of Galați (UDJG), Romania

Editor-in-Chief, ''Journal of Agriculture and Rural Development Studies (JARDS)''

Former Vice-Rector, Former Director of DFCTT and CTT UGAL
----'''Dear Councillors,'''

It is a great honor for me to submit my candidacy for the Executive Committee of the UNESCO UniTwin Complex Systems Digital Campus (CS-DC). With more than '''30 years of experience in academia''', I am currently Full Professor and doctoral advisor at “Dunărea de Jos” University of Galați (UDJG), Romania — a public research university with a strong regional impact and a long-standing tradition in interdisciplinary education and innovation.

I hold two doctoral degrees — one in Economics and one in Engineering — and I am a habilitated professor. I have published '''163 ISI-indexed scientific articles''' and have a '''Clarivate H-index of 14'''. My research focuses on '''food security, circular economy, technological innovation, rural development''', and '''complex systems in agro-food value chains'''.

I am the founder and coordinator of Romania’s first doctoral program in ''Engineering and Management in Agriculture and Rural Development (IMADR)'', with '''9 PhD graduates''' and '''9 doctoral students''' currently under my supervision. I also serve as '''Editor-in-Chief''' of the ''Journal of Agriculture and Rural Development Studies (JARDS)'', dedicated to interdisciplinary research in sustainable food and rural systems.

Over the past decade, I have been involved as director or expert in '''more than 45 national and international research projects''', including Horizon-compatible initiatives and cross-border cooperation programs. I coordinated a '''Romania–Republic of Moldova cross-border project''' (2020–2021) and currently lead '''two new ROMD-funded projects''' entering implementation.

My former institutional leadership roles include:

* '''Vice-Rector for Research and Innovation'''
* '''Director of the Department for Institutional Development (DFCTT)''' and of the '''Technology Transfer Center (CTT UGAL)'''
* '''Member of national and international quality and research bodies''', including CNATDCU, ARACIS, and CMPTJ

----'''If elected, I am committed to:'''

* Expanding the CS-DC network in '''Eastern Europe and the Black Sea region''', enhancing scientific and territorial diversity;
* Supporting '''POEM''' and '''FOOD flagship programs''' through digital education, doctoral/postdoctoral collaboration, and innovation ecosystems;
* Promoting '''open science''', international e-seminars, and interdisciplinary MOOCs;
* Coordinating thematic initiatives in '''agro-complexity, food systems resilience''', and '''sustainable rural innovation'''.

As a representative of a '''UniTwin member institution''', I see this candidacy as a unique opportunity to strengthen UDJG’s role within the CS-DC ecosystem. I fully embrace the CS-DC mission to foster global collaboration, education, and research in complexity science.

I am ready to bring '''vision, experience, and energy''' to the Executive Committee and help shape the future of our UniTwin community.
----'''Sincerely,'''

'''Prof. Silvius STANCIU, PhD in Economics, PhD in Engineering, Habil.'''

Representative of “Dunărea de Jos” University of Galați (UDJG)

'''Professional Identifiers:'''

* Web of Science Author ID: R-8246-2017
* ORCID: 0000-0001-7697-0968
* Scopus ID: 36633317700
* Google Scholar: Silvius Stanciu
* ResearchGate: Silvius Stanciu

== New Candidatures to the Executive Committee for [2024] ==

'''Enver Oruro Puma, Ph.D., Principal Investigator of Neurocomputing, Social Simulation, and Complex Systems Laboratory at the Instituto Científico of Universidad Andina del Cusco, Peru''' 

Dear Councillor of the UNESCO UniTwin CS-DC. I am very honored to place my candidature for the UNESCO UniTwin CS-DC Executive Committee. I am Enver Miguel Oruro Puma, Ph.D., principal investigator of Neurocomputing, Social Simulation, and Complex Systems Laboratory at the Instituto Científico of Universidad Andina del Cusco, Peru (https://sites.google.com/view/orurolab/). Since 2009, I have promoted and organized conferences and academic events on Complex Systems in Latin America. Recently, I have promoted the area of computational neuroscience on infant attachment (https://sites.google.com/view/envermiguel/seminar-in-maternal-infant-relationship-studies).

It would be a great honor for me if given the opportunity to contribute to the Executive Committee of UNESCO UniTwin CS-DC in the integration of Complex System research groups in the Latin American Region. For this, I propose the creation of two periodical activities: 1) A Special Lectures Series on Complex Systems UNESCO UniTwin CS-DC oriented to experts on Complex Systems, and 2) A Invited Advanced Lectures UNESCO UniTwin CS-DC oriented to experts who do not identify explicitly with complex systems

'''Pierre Collet, full professor of Strasbourg University, on secondment to Universidad Andrés Bello, Instituto de Tecnología para la Innovación en Salud y Bienestar, Viña del Mar, Valparaiso, Chile'''.

Since 2012, I have contributed to the elaboration of the CS-DC Unesco UniTwin together with Paul Bourigne, Jeffrey Johnson and many others, and I have been co-coordinator of the CS-DC UniTwin with Cyrille Bertelle since its creation in 2014. Starting part of this great adventure has changed my academic and personal life: thanks to the UniTwin, I have changed my research from stochastic optimisation, artificial evolution and AI in general to complex systems and epistemology.

Participating in this UniTwin allowed me to make new contacts and start incredible projects that I could not have imagined before. It has even changed my life, as I am now living in Chile, having been recruited by ITISB, an institute founded by Carla Taramasco, the CS-DC representative for South America.

Together with Paul and others, we would like to revive UniTwin by preparing another world conference inspired by the great success of [https://cs-dc-15.org CS-DC'15] and also develop flagship projects such as POEM (Personalised Open Education for the Masses) and the [https://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Portal:Complex_Systems_Digital_Campus/E-Laboratory_on_complex_computational_ecosystems ECCE e-lab], which this year has welcomed a new very active [[Figures of Play/Les figures du Jeu e-team|Figures of Play]] that has started the [https://ludocorpus.org/ Ludocorpus] in France.

As said before, this incredible UniTwin adventure always pays off for those who invest in it and in its great challenge: to develop the new science of complex systems through research and education. Through its projects, it contributes to making the world a better place to live in, despite the constant attacks on science coming from the most unlikely places.

Science is the solution, not the problem, to many of the world's plagues. We must put our energy into developing it and defend it against all its detractors.

That is why I am once again standing for election to the Executive Committee of this great CS-DC UniTwin. Modern science is Complex Systems science. It is important that its beacon continues to illuminate the world, and we must invest our time and energy in it.

== Candidature Deputy President for [2024, 2025] ==
'''Jeffrey JOHNSON, Professor of Complexity Science and Design, The Open University, UK'''

I offer myself as a candidate both to be President and to the Executive Committee of The UNESCO UniTwin Complex Systems Digital Campus (CS-DC) so that I can help to drive it forward to achieve it goals.

I am particularly committed to our educational efforts. I have made four MOOCs on the FutureLearn Platform for CS-DC ( &lt;nowiki&gt;https://www.futurelearn.com/partners/unesco-unitwin-complex-systems-digital-campus&lt;/nowiki&gt; ): Global Systems Science (2015-16); Systems Thinking and Complexity (2017-18); First Steps in Data Science with Google Analytics (2018-19) and COVID-19 - Pandemics, Modelling and Policy (2020). CS-DC has a great opportunity to become the global university providing interdisciplinary education for a better world.

I am also committed to our research mission with UNESCO towards the achieving the U.N. Sustainable Development Goals. My own research on representing the dynamics of complex multilevel systems is relevant to many of the research initiatives of CS-DC.

I have extensive experience working within the complex systems community. I have run various coordination actions supporting research programmes funded by the European Commission, I am a founder member and past president of the Complex Systems Society, and I am Deputy-President of the CS-DC. I believe this experience will enable me to make a significant contribution the CS-DC over the next three years.

== New Elected President for [2023, 2024] ==
Paul BOURGINE, present President of the UNESCO UniTwin CS-DC, Complex Systems Institute of Paris 
I offer myself as a candidate to be President of The UNESCO UniTwin Complex Systems Digital Campus (CS-DC).
My previous commitment two years ago is below. The bad news is that it was not achieved. The good new is that we know now how to create 'autonomous community of autonomous communities' as a social network with IPFS (the InterPlanetary File System) like the new development of Wikipedia. 
If elected, my first commitment is to finish this job as quickly as possible. My second commitment is simultaneously to visit each country of the UniTwin for creating its country.CS-DC and its roadmap with young eTeams shared by their Universities with a senior scientific committee. The eTeam projects will have the opportunity to be submitted to the EU calls or other ones. 

Enver Oruro PhD, Head of Neurocomputing, Social Simulation and Complex Systems Laboratory, Universidad Andina del Cusco, Peru.
'''I would like to nominate Professor Paul Bourgine.'''

== New Elected Members to the Executive Committee for [2022,2023, 2024,2025] ==
'''2Dr Mohamed Abdellahi (Ould BABAH) Ebbe, Mauritania,''' 

* Senior Advisor for the CILSS Executif Secretary for international Partnership and formal General Director of the     Institut du Sahel/CILSS www.insah.org;

·       Commissionaire General of CILSS for Horticulture Universal  Expo of DOHA 2023-2024   &lt;nowiki&gt;https://www.dohaexpo2023.gov.qa/en/&lt;/nowiki&gt; with central thems:

'''CENTRAL THEME: GREEN DESERT, BETTER ENVIRONMENT'''

* Executive Director of the     Orthopterist Society (400 researchers among the globe) &lt;nowiki&gt;https://orthsoc.org/&lt;/nowiki&gt;
* We have organized our last     congress during 16-20 0ctober in Merida Mexique

&lt;nowiki&gt;https://ico2023mexico.com/&lt;/nowiki&gt;

By obtaining the honor of having your hoped-for confidence for continuing this post of member of the executive council of the CS-DC, I will work, in priority and in the short term on two main subjects:

## '''The transboundary plague of the     Desert Locust (Schistocerca gregaria (Forska l , 1775))''' This plague of the Desert     Locust of more than 3000 years that cites all our holy books (the Tourah,     the Bible and the Koran) and which continues to be present to this day and     to wreak devastating devastation. In case of invasion, it can affect the     agriculture and pastures of about 25 countries including those of the     poorest countries of the world, from Mauritania to India, while its best     and most effective strategy of struggle is preventive struggle by     targeting its first centers of gregarization which are very small in space     and much better known today. In 2005, the costs of its struggle in the     Sahel and North Africa amounted to half a billion dollars, with 8 million     farmers and pastoralists affected in the Sahel. It also massively invaded     Asia and Africa. 'East Africa in 2020. On this subject, I have spent 30     years studying and fighting and developing a national strategy against     this scourge which has made it possible to establish a whole prevention     model and an institutional, technical, operational mechanism. and     scientific effective in my country that can be adapted and copied and in     all other affected countries: Biogeography of the desert locust     Schistocerca gregaria, Forskal, 1775: Identification, characterization and     originality of a gregarious focus in central Mauritania (HR.HORS COLLEC.)     (French Edition) - Babah Ebbe, Mohamed Abdallahi | 9782705670573 |     Amazon.com.au | Books &lt;nowiki&gt;http://www.worldbank.org/en/news/feature/2010/01/07/improved-ways-to-prevent-the-desert-locust-in-mauritania-and-the-sahel&lt;/nowiki&gt;,     http: //     whatsnext.blogs.cnn.com/2012/02/02/in-mauritania-sunny-with-a-chance-of-locusts/ I was invited last year by Royal Society 20-21 may 2024 to moderate one session on locust research management (La plasticité des criquets et des abeilles dans un monde en mutation | Société royale) and in a “International Conference on New Technology and Concepts for Sustainable Management of Locusts and Grasshoppers” held from 2 to 7 June 2024 in Jinan, Shandong, China.We are also preparing our Orthopterist congress in Argentina during the next mars 2026  &lt;nowiki&gt;https://ico2026.com.ar&lt;/nowiki&gt;

'''All this is in addition of more than 110 publications or joint publications on the locust, its environment and management''' 

# '''Senior Adviser to the CILSS Executive Secretary for International Partnerships'''] [Assistance to Mauritania (or 3 months) in the preparation of the organisation of the Nouakchott+10 High-Level Forum on pastoralism held in Nouakchott from 6 to 8 November 2024, various advising for the international partnership and the mobilization of resources including preparation of the organization of a round table planned in OPEC Vienna Austria for the mobilization of Arabic and Islamic funds for the financing of the CILSS 2050 strategic plan
# '''The Sahel Institute (INSAH)     www.insah.org of the Permanent Interstate Committee for Drought Control     (CILSS)''' that I     lead and which has been doing extraordinary work for almost half a century     in the field of research and development of animal and plant production     techniques and also in the field of support for demographic, population     and development policies, in favor of the populations of our 13 Sahelian,     coastal and island member countries. This work covered the majority of     good practice technologies in the field of plant and animal production,     natural resource management, land rstauration, cultivation techniques,     post-harvest, machining, dehulling operations technology. / ginning,     Conservation and storage, good resilience practices

Research on the demographic dividend, gender and the empowerment of women and the Population / Development interrelations ... etc The results of all this work are contained in a database. data, online &lt;nowiki&gt;http://publications.insah.org/&lt;/nowiki&gt;, containing more than 1,500 books, scientific and technical articles that will have to be modernized and connected to the CS Meta data.

As General Commissionaire  of CILSS for Horticulture Universal  Expo of DOHA 2023-2024   &lt;nowiki&gt;https://www.dohaexpo2023.gov.qa/en/&lt;/nowiki&gt; with central thems:

'''CENTRAL THEME: GREEN DESERT, BETTER ENVIRONMENT''' I am working  in introducing as detailed below:

'''CILSS ''contribution to the improvement of sustainable horticultural agricultural production in a context of drought''''' 

'''I. PRESENTATION OF THE EXPO'''  

Expo 2023 in Doha is part of the fight against desertification. The Expo will be held from 2 October 2023 to 28 March 2024 under the theme &quot;'''''Green Desert, Better Environment'''''&quot;. The aim is to encourage, inspire and inform people about innovative solutions to reduce desertification. The exhibition will provide an international platform for participants, stakeholders, decision-makers, nongovernmental organizations and experts to address the global challenge of &quot;desertification&quot;, while making a valuable contribution to achieving a sustainable future. During the 6 months of the Expo, nearly 3 million visitors from over 80 countries are expected

The objectives of this Expo are in line with those of the CILSS, which seeks to improve the living conditions of the people of the Sahel in a sustainable manner. This is why the participation of CILSS in this Expo is important for the region and its vulnerable populations. 

'''OBJECTIVES OF EXPO 2023 DOHA, QATAR'''

Expo 2023 Doha, Qatar is defined by the following objectives:

-   Encourage horticultural innovation by focusing on Qatar's climate, water and soil.

-   Promote Expo 2023 in Doha, Qatar, as a catalyst for international investment and business opportunities.

-   To propose innovative actions that would allow humanity to fight against desertification more quickly and decisively before it is too late.

-   To build up useful environmental outputs for future generations.  

'''II. ORGANISATION OF THE CILSS PARTICIPATION'''

'''II.1. GOALS OF CILSS EXHIBITION:''' 

1. Sharing experiences and best practices,

2. Building International Partnership,

3. Promoting technology and innovation

Finally, I will continue to work actively with my colleagues on the Executive Board on all aspects of other cross-border scourges but also all aspects of improving agro-sylvo-pastoral production


'''Dr. Xabier E. Barandiaran, Lecturer at the University of the Basque Country (UPV/EHU), Department of Philosophy, Donostia - San Sebastian, Spain'''

I would like to present [https://xabier.barandiaran.net myself] as a candidate for the Executive Committee. I have been the representative and coordinator between CS-DC and the [https://ehu.eus University of the Basque Country] since 2013. I develop my academic research at the [https://ias-research.net IAS-Research Centre for Life, Mind, and Society], with a focus on the understanding of autonomous and complex adaptive systems (from biology to cognition, from brains to societies). I am the author of over 50 indexed publications on topics related to complex systems, philosophy of mind, complex epistemology, simulation models of the origins of life, minimal agency, evolutionary robotics, complex social network analysis, etc. I recently received the “Award for Distinguished Early-Career Investigator” by the International Society for Artificial Life. Overal I have been awarded with 7 different grants and have actively participated on 15 different research projects. I have also supervised 2 PhD thesis (4 more still in development) and I hold an extensive record of scientific and innovative management experience in different academic and public institutions as founder of research networks ReteCog.Net and FLOK Society – Buen Conocer and head of RDI at Barcelona City Council (2016-2018). I have also organized several national workshops, summer schools and conferences, and 2 international summer schools, 4 international workshops and one international conference. I am currently the Principal Investigator of a founded research project (with more than 30 research-collaborators) on a complex systems' approach to the concept of autonomy beyond its classical conception as an individual bounded property.

As part of my university's goal of fostering international collaboration and opening up e-learning and research initiatives I would like to get more deeply involved on CS-DC with the following goals:

* To desing the infrastructure, learning-experience, research-experience and content for distributed, open access and high-quality digital campus facilities.
* To involve local agents (student, teachers, researchers and institutions) on the initiative of the network.
* To foster collaboration, co-production and resource sharing between teaching and research facilities between priviledged richer countries and lower-income ones. In particular, but not exclusively, and for obvious reasons related to sharing the same language, to foster ''collaboration between European and Latin-american universities'', research initiatives and students through CS-DC.
* To develop at least one ''prototype'' of a MSc level online course (and research network module) around complex cognitive systems that can serve as a model for the other fields of the network.
* To develop a clear conceptual and communicative framework for CS-DC to be able to attract more participants, resources and broader attention and success as pioneering international initiative.


'''Dr. habil. László Barna Iantovics, Professor at “George Emil Palade” Univ. of Medicine, Pharmacy, Science and Technology of Tg. Mures, Romania'''

With the present manifesto, I would like to be a candidate for the CS-DC Executive Committee. I have been the representative of “George Emil Palade” University of Medicine, Pharmacy, Science and Technology of Targu Mures from Romania in CS-DC by many years.

Some of my research and academic activities were related to the complex systems, including: publications; organized conferences (e.g. Symposium on Understanding Intelligent and Complex Systems - UICS 2009; 1st Int. Conf. on Complexity and Intelligence of the Artificial and Natural Complex Systems Medical Applications of the Complex Systems. Biomedical Computing -CANS 2008; 1st Int. Conf. on Bio-Inspired Computational Methods Used for Difficult Problems Solving. Development of Intelligent and Complex Systems - BICS 2008); membership in conference committees (e.g. Int. Conf. Emergent Properties in Natural and Artificial Complex Systems - EPNACS 2007; Workshop on Complex Systems and Self-organization Modeling -CoSSoM 2009); Journal Special Issues (e.g. Special Issue on Complexity in Sciences and Artificial Intelligence; Special Issue on Understanding Complex Systems); membership in Journal’s Editorial Boards (e.g. Complex Adaptive Systems Modeling -CASM, SpringerOpen), and contribution to research performed in projects and projects coordination (Social network of machines- SOON; Hybrid Medical Complex Systems -ComplexMediSys). I am the director of the Research Center on Artificial Intelligence, Data Science and Smart Engineering (Artemis).

I would like to involve myself much deeper in the life and activities of the CS-DC community.

My principal objectives are:

* To involve junior and senior researchers from my university in activities regarding research and education related to complex systems.
* To involve universities and research institutes to actively contribute to the CS-DC development.
* To involve myself in the joint coordination with other CS-DC members of a doctoral and postdoctoral students’ group that will be involved in the CS-DC community works.
* To strengthen the research direction with the theme: applications of intelligent complex systems and machine intelligence measuring. One of the subtopics of interest will be the application of complex systems, artificial intelligence and data science in medicine, pharmacology, and healthcare.


'''Flavia Mori SARTI, Ph.D., Professor and Researcher, University of Sao Paulo, Brazil'''

I would like to present my candidature for the CS-DC Executive Committee in the period 2022-2024 to contribute to the dissemination of Complex Systems Science.

I have been representative of the University of Sao Paulo (USP) at the CS-DC since 2012, and I have been working with complex systems since the creation of the Interdisciplinary Research Group of Complex Systems Modelling at the School of Arts, Sciences and Humanities (EACH-USP) in 2006. Our research group succesfully implemented the first interdisciplinary graduate program (Master) in Complex Systems Modelling in Brazil, in 2010. I have been participating in the coordinating commission of the program since 2010, and I was coordinator of the graduate program from 2010 to 2014.

I have supervised seven students in the Master program, which resulted in thesis, book chapters, and papers published on the subject of complex systems, including models on tax evasion, health systems regulation, food policy and nutrition programs, and complex networks on scientific collaboration and international food trade. I also contributed to the organization of the e-Session &quot;Economics as a Complex Evolutionist System&quot; on the CS-DC'15 World e-conference in 2015, and have been invited to present seminars on complex systems applied to health economics, health technology assessment, and public policy of nutrition and health.

My goals in the CS-DC Executive Committee include:

* To disseminate the role of CS-DC in education and research on Complex Systems, especially in Brazil and other developing countries;
* To support and to engage other research groups working with Complex Systems for participation in the CS-DC;
* To contribute further with management and organization of CS-DC activities during the period of 2022-2024;
* To continue supporting capacity building in Complex Systems through the Complex Systems Modelling Program at USP;
* To participate in innovation, research and development activities based on the application of Complex Systems in public policy and entrepreneurship.


'''Pr Panos Argyarakis, Professor in the University of Thessaloniki, Greece.'''

I have been with the Complex Systems Society since its inception in 2004 by participating in the NEST projects Dysonet and Giacs which created CSS. My experience in the Executive Committee will be to contribute towards the spreading of the Complexity idea to various levels of education throughout the different countries. I am currently the PI in an Erasmus+ network that introduces new models of teaching and investigating how is education been affected for future generations. I can contribute in decision making for such important activities, and also serve as liaison with the European Commission, and the Complex Systems Society, due to my past experience. I have extended organizational experience by organizing several internationally meetings in this field that were attended by large audiences. My research interests are related to Complex systems and Networks. Scale-free, random, and small world networks. Dynamic properties on networks, Diffusion, spreading phenomena on networks, disease spreading. Phase transitions, percolation model, reaction-diffusion processes, trapping processes. Random walks.


'''Ali Moussaoui, Professor, University of Tlemcen, Department of Mathematics, Algeria,'''

I wish to present my candidature to become member of the executive committee of the CS-DC, I wish to develop collaborations with the partner universities in the field of complex systems. I wish to participate in the creation of international mixed laboratories and international masters on complex systems.

In the past, I was responsible for a master's degree entitled: modeling of complex systems in our department, I am currently responsible for a research team entitled: Modeling of complex systems in our laboratory, I was responsible for a Franco-Algerian project on the modeling of complex systems. My research skills are focused on the modeling of complex natural and biological systems.

'''Carlos Gershenson, Research Professor, Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México.'''

I was involved with CS-DC in its initial years in UNESCO's UniTwin, also representing UNAM. I have been editor-in-chief of Complexity Digest since 2007. I co-organized the Conference on Complex Systems in 2017. I am currently vice-president secretary of the Complex Systems Society (CSS).

I am a strong proponent of open online learning. I managed to start a collaboration between UNAM and Coursera, which has led to more than a hundred MOOCs and millions of enrolled students.

I would be interested in strengthening the relationship between CS-DC and CSS, as well as other organizations.

==Elected members to the Executive Committee for 2021 ==
'''Carlos J. BARRIOS H., PhD., Professor, Bucaramanga, Colombia '''

I write to express my interest to candidacy to be part of the CS-DC Executive Committee. I'm very motivated to develop actions to strengthen digital ecosystem supporting research and education proposals of our CS-DC Council. Among these years participating in the CS-DC group, I can see different ways to leverage the impact and the development of our actions with computational strategies, and now, I want to be part of the leadership council joined mutual visions.

My experience leading the Advanced Computing System for Latin America and Caribbean (SCALAC : http://scalac.redclara.net ) and as member of other leadership boards in international projects (mainly between Europe and Latin America) supports my candidature. (linkedin.com/in/carlosjaimebh) Also, my role as professor, director and researcher contributes to build the common vision of the CS-DC Council and the leadership of the CS- DC Executive Committee.


'''Mina TEICHER, Professor of Bar-Ilan University, Israël'''

I submit my candidacy to the Executive Committee of the CS Digital Campus. If elected I will work towards our following needs, using my past experience in Professional international societies, universities managements and the data industry : 

* We need in the near future to build an optimal and effective agreement with the Complex System Society.
* We need to build a business  plan for fund raising.
* We need to build a modular budget for 2021.
* We need to build a strategy for geographically extension. 
* We need to build a strategy for thematic  extension. 
* We need to build partnerships with the big multi national high tech Companies in network and in content. 


'''Yasmin MERALI, Professor of University of Hull, UK'''

This manifesto is connected with the ideals that I had as a founding member of our UniNet which was conceived as part of the FP7 ASSYST project.
CS-DC has come a long way since its initial conception. The way I see it, there are three categories that have grown to emerge as our core activities- 
* Capacity building through education and training in Complex Systems Science
* The application of Complex Systems Science to address global challenges
* The advancement of Complex Systems Science through research and development.

I believe this is a good time to link back to the inception of our UNITWIN which was in part inspired by considerations of issues at a human scale, and the desire to address the inequalities that divided the so-called developed and developing countries. This resonates strongly with the ambition of the  Sustainable Development Goals (SDGs) we are currently grappling with.
In the growth phase of the UNITWIN and CSDC we have been focused on extending the size of the network, and scaling up our educational offerings across the digital campus. In the next phase I believe we need to:
# understand and leverage the diversity and distinctive capabilities and resources (e.g. indigenous knowledge) of the countries in our network to develop a healthy ecosystem, and
# tailor the support that we provide to align with the diverse nature of their relational and social capital and their economic, political and environmental challenges and priorities with regard to the SDGs.  

I am concerned that if we do not explicitly design a social/ideational exchange mechanism that attends to these two imperatives, we will not have full, active participation of all member institutions, and the countries of the South that do not currently have champions in Europe will be marginalized.

If elected I would champion a strategy of organizing ourselves following the Complex Adaptive Systems paradigm, as a hyper network with dynamically connected local clusters. In practical terms I would like to begin by establishing the local (country-based) clusters and establishing a discourse that would allow us to map the diverse profiles, challenges and aspirations for the different countries. This would then form the basis for the development of a mechanism for shaping the meaningful collaborative development of our three core activities to deliver advances that are globally co-ordinated and locally responsive.

Personal Profile: I am Professor of Systems Thinking at the University of Hull and have served as Director of the Centre Systems Studies there. Prior to that I was Co-Director of the Doctoral Training Centre for Complex Systems Science at the University of Warwick. My research is transdisciplinary, focusing on the use of Complex Systems Science to enhance the resilience of socio-economic systems. I am an Expert advisor to the EU and I have significant experience of lecturing internationally as Visiting Professor in Asia, Europe and the USA.

'''Céline ROZENBLAT: Professor, University of Lausanne - Institut de géographie et de durabilité (IGD), Switzerland'''

I'm pleased to applied to become member of the CS-DC council.
As founding member of CS-DC, my university, the university of Lausanne, is very engaged in Complex sciences.
I would not only represent my university, but also social science as geographer and vice-president of the International Geographical Union and member of the International Science Council commission on Urban Health and Well being.
I would act in the council in specific programs to develop the reality of the Digital Campus of the Complex systems.

All these actions combine very ambitious interdisciplinary approaches, and in this perspective, we developed with CS-DC for 3 years the TIMES Flagship  Territorial Intelligence For Multilevel Equity And Sustainability. It comprises four main programs:

 '''SIRE''': Socially Intelligence Roadmap Ecosystem
 '''POLE:''' Personalized Open Lifelong Education
 '''WOSI:''' Worldwide Open Smart Innovation
 '''WOSP:''' Worldwide Open Stochastic Prediction 

In this perspective a MOOC « Healthy Urban system » is now in development, basing the interdisciplinary approach on the CS-DC Road-Map grid. It seems very useful and relevant in this implementation stage.
I would help to develop other programs in this perspective\[Ellipsis]


'''André TINDANO, Director General of CARFS (African Center for Research and Training in Synecoculture)'''

What motivates me to aspire to the position of member of the executive committee of CS DC is my long term participation in the promotion of sustainable development and my commitment to the sharing of knowledge and expertise.

My research interests Sustainable agriculture, ecology, nutrition, life science. I have a strong experience  in:
* Administration and management of development projects and programs;
* Accompaniment of associations and groups;
* Technical capacity building (animation of training sessions and reflection workshops).
* Action research;
* Sociological, socio-economic and economic studies.
* Development of development projects and programs;
* Training of trainers
* Results Based Management Training (RBM)
* Monitoring and evaluation of development programs and projects;
* Management of programs and development projects;
* Institutional development and organizational strengthening;
* Development and implementation of training / awareness / animation program;
* Very good knowledge of participatory methods
'''Guiou KOBAYASHI, Associate Professor at Federal University of ABC in São Paulo State, Brazil. '''

I worked with fault-tolerant computer systems for nuclear power plants and Metro signaling systems and recently my interests have evolved to resilience properties of Complex Systems. Traditionally, redundancy was the main feature for fault-tolerant and fail-safe systems, but the adaptability and the evolution of Complex Systems are the key elements for the resilience of these systems. How to characterize, design and implement these key elements in our future resilient systems? The Complex System - Digital Campus (CS-DC) is a way to create a world-wide community of researchers, philosophers and students to promote and discuss this kind of questions involving Complex Systems. For me, participating in its foundation was a great honor and I am very glad for the opportunity that I have had to contribute since 2012 in the consolidation of CS-DC.

Through this manifest I am applying to be one of the members of the new CS-DC's Executive Committee. I would like to help just a little more to strengthen and structure this fantastic community through which I had the opportunity to meet important people with very interesting works that expanded my knowledge of Complex Systems. Although my University and my personal contribution for CS-DC are very limited and small, I hope to continue to work with this great team.


'''Pierre COLLET, Professor of Computer Science, University of Strasbourg, France. Co-coordinator of the CS-DC UNESCO UniTwin'''

The CS-DC initiated by Paul Bourgine, Jeffrey Johnson, Cyrille Bertelle and many others has been an extraordinary adventure a) to instantiate as a UNESCO UniTwin and b) to develop and run since it was enacted in July 2014. Many a night have been spent on designing its inner workings, so that it can deliver an effective affordance for the scientists who wish to develop the science and teaching of Complex Systems. Indeed, many projects seeded in the CS-DC have come to fruition, showing the enormous potential of this fertile environment not only for research, but also for teaching: the BBB rooms set up by the CS-DC have not only made it possible for the CS-DC to organize conferences, but have also shown their potential as remote teaching rooms in many Universities around the world.

It has been an honour for me to be part of the development of the CS-DC since its beginning, but so much remains to be done!

In this manifesto, I hereby express my strong desire to continue developing the CS-DC in these trying times, when the effects of the pandemics stretch thin the social links that our research and teaching communities need most. My objectives for this new mandate are not only to deliver a new world conference (originally planned in 2020 but unfortunately delayed due to the high toll imposed on us all, teachers and researchers alike, by COVID-19) but also continue on developing not only efficient complex computational ecosystems (cheap powerful PARSEC machines have been installed in several universities) but more specifically remote teaching environments based on complex systems, to mitigate the terrible impact of the pandemic on face to face education, within the POEM CS-DC flagship, on which Paul Bourgine and myself have been working for many years now..


'''Mariana C. BROENS, Professor - UNESP - BRAZIL.'''

As members of the Executive Committee, our main challenge will be to raise, analyse and to discuss possible positive/negative ethical and political implications of the further development of the Complex Systems Science, and their application on studies of everyday social problems. In particular, We believe that the widespread use of complex system models and Big Data analytics can bring important questions about people's privacy, personal and corporate responsibility, widespread surveillance by public or private institutions, among many others, that should be deeply discussed in our community. Our contribution will be to raise and deepen these discussions from an interdisciplinary perspective.


'''Cyrille Bertelle, Professor in Computer Sciences,  University Le Havre, France, co-coordinator of the CS-DC UNESCO UniTwin'''

I am a candidate for the CS-DC Executive Committee to represent the University of Le Havre
Normandy, which is co-coordinator with the University of Strasbourg of the convention of
recognition of the CS-DC as UniTwin by UNESCO. The University of Le Havre has made
available to the community, resources and skills to provide digital collaborative tools for the
organization of the Councils and the CS-DC'15 virtual conference.

The objective I wish to take is to facilitate the involvement of member universities not only
by their representatives on the council but by allowing researchers from these member
institutions to join concrete and accessible actions.

Co-responsible in the past of a master's degree on complex systems and then of the creation
of the institute on complex systems in Normandie (France) in a multidisciplinary framework,
I have participated in the setting up of the project labeled by the French national program of
investments for the future and entitled &quot;Smart Port City&quot;. The aim is to think about the
future of territories in a sustainable development approach supported by new technologies
and concerned about the environment and the well-being of their citizens. My research skills
are focused on implementing the complexity of complex dynamic systems and networks,
crossing behavioral scales from the interaction of human behaviors to the technical
networks of the territory. 

The book &quot;complex systems, smart territories and mobility&quot; from
the Springer's Understanding Complex Systems series, which will be published in January
2021 (https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9783030593018) illustrates the research
coordination actions that I lead in these fields.


'''Slimane Ben Miled, Senior Researcher at Pasteur Institute of Tunis, Professor at ENIT'''

Our Tunisian consortium want to constitute a collaborative Research Training Programs to increase data science capacity related to health research in Africa by building trainings and enhancing institutional capacity at African academic institutions.
The academy/project is based on 4 pillars to build a training ecosystem for Data and Engineering Science in health.
# A platform of federated master’s programs with à la carte optional courses covering informatics/computer science, biomedical informatics, data science, statistics, and public health). Each program will keep its independence, with a mention to the academy label, and this platform will allow to enrich the training with optional modules, seminars, and courses in the partner institutions. New curricula will be created in relation to ethical issues.
# Network of Doctoral programs and Executive programs
# Platform of federated Business incubator and a career center offers training, support and funding for projects related to the project’s topic.

This challenge is in perfect agreement with the Sustainable Development Goal 3 and the CS-DC flagship PHYSIOMES (Personalized Health phYSIcally, sOcially and Mentally for Each in their networkS).


'''Masa Funabashi: researcher of open complex systems at Sony Computer Science Laboratories, Inc.'''

I would like to contribute to the executive committee of CS-DC on the following two pillars:
* Promote the FOOD (From smart agrOecOnomy to smart fooD) flagship project that aims to resolve the health-diet-environment trilemma through the promotion of sustainable food systems, in collaboration with the e-lab &quot;human augmentation of ecosystems&quot; members institution: Sony CSL, Synecoculture Association, CARFS, and those who wish to participate in CS-DC collaboration.
* Construct a basic e-learning content on Synecoculture and ecological literacy as a part of CS-DC MOOCs and perform initial trials, principally in ECOWAS countries, through the Sony CSL-CARFS collaboration.

Through the development of on-going activities in FOOD project and making synergy with other flagship projects, I would like to contribute CS-DC as a member of the executive committee and realize further extension toward the achievement of global sustainability goals such as SDGs.


'''Dr Mohamed Abdellahi (Ould BABAH) Ebbe, Mauritania, '''
* General Director of the Institut du Sahel/CILSS www.insah.org; 
* Executive Director of the Orthopterist Society (400 researchers among the globe) https://orthsoc.org/

By obtaining the honor of having your hoped-for confidence for this post of member of the executive council of the CS-DC, I will work, in priority and in the short term on two main subjects:
# '''The transboundary plague of the Desert Locust (Schistocerca gregaria (Forska l , 1775))''' This plague of the Desert Locust of more than 3000 years that cites all our holy books (the Tourah, the Bible and the Koran) and which continues to be present to this day and to wreak devastating devastation. In case of invasion, it can affect the agriculture and pastures of about 25 countries including those of the poorest countries of the world, from Mauritania to India, while its best and most effective strategy of struggle is preventive struggle by targeting its first centers of gregarization which are very small in space and much better known today. In 2005, the costs of its struggle in the Sahel and North Africa amounted to half a billion dollars, with 8 million farmers and pastoralists affected in the Sahel. It also massively invaded Asia and Africa. 'East Africa in 2020. On this subject, I have spent 30 years studying and fighting and developing a national strategy against this scourge which has made it possible to establish a whole prevention model and an institutional, technical, operational mechanism. and scientific effective in my country that can be adapted and copied and in all other affected countries: Biogeography of the desert locust Schistocerca gregaria, Forskal, 1775: Identification, characterization and originality of a gregarious focus in central Mauritania (HR.HORS COLLEC.) (French Edition) - Babah Ebbe, Mohamed Abdallahi | 9782705670573 | Amazon.com.au | Books http://www.worldbank.org/en/news/feature/2010/01/07/improved-ways-to-prevent-the-desert-locust-in-mauritania-and-the-sahel, http: // whatsnext.blogs.cnn.com/2012/02/02/in-mauritania-sunny-with-a-chance-of-locusts/
# '''The Sahel Institute (INSAH) www.insah.org of the Permanent Interstate Committee for Drought Control (CILSS)''' that I lead and which has been doing extraordinary work for almost half a century in the field of research and development of animal and plant production techniques and also in the field of support for demographic, population and development policies, in favor of the populations of our 13 Sahelian, coastal and island member countries. This work covered the majority of good practice technologies in the field of plant and animal production, natural resource management, land restauration, cultivation techniques, post-harvest, machining, dehulling operations technology. / ginning, Conservation and storage, good resilience practices

Research on the demographic dividend, gender and the empowerment of women and the Population / Development interrelations ... etc
The results of all this work are contained in a database. data, online http://publications.insah.org/, containing more than 1,500 books, scientific and technical articles that will have to be modernized and connected to the CS Meta data.

Finally, I will work actively with my colleagues on the Executive Board on all aspects of other cross-border scourges but also all aspects of improving agro-sylvo-pastoral production tools as well as the fight against poverty and food insecurity and nutrition in line with the goals (SDGs)


'''Dr. Habil. László Barna Iantovics, Associate Professor at “George Emil Palade” University of Medicine, Pharmacy, Science and Technology of Targu Mures, Romania.''' 

With the present manifesto, I would like to candidate as a member of the CS-DC Executive Committee. I am the representative of “George Emil Palade” University of Medicine, Pharmacy, Science and Technology of Targu Mures from Romania in CS-DC.

Some of my research and academic activities are related to the complex systems, including: publications, organization of conferences (e.g. Symposium on Understanding Intelligent and Complex Systems - UICS 2009; 1st Int. Conf. on Complexity and Intelligence of the Artificial and Natural Complex Systems Medical Applications of the Complex Systems. Biomedical Computing -CANS 2008; 1st Int. Conf. on Bio-Inspired Computational Methods Used for Difficult Problems Solving. Development of Intelligent and Complex Systems - BICS 2008), contribution to conference committees (e.g. Int. Conf. Emergent Proprieties in Natural and Artificial Complex Systems - EPNACS 2007; Workshop on Complex Systems and Self-organization Modeling -CoSSoM 2009), preparing journal special issues (e.g. Special Issue on Complexity in Sciences and Artificial Intelligence; Special Issue on Understanding Complex Systems), participating in journal’s editorial board (e.g. Complex Adaptive Systems Modeling -CASM, SpringerOpen), and contribution to research in projects and projects coordination (Social network of machines- SOON; Hybrid Medical Complex Systems -ComplexMediSys). I was the director of the center Advanced Computational Technologies – AdvCompTech in the frame of my university. At present, I am the director of the Center for Advanced Research in Information Technology from my university.

I would like much deeper involve myself in the life and activities of the CS-DC community.

My objectives:

* To involve junior and senior researchers from my university in activities regarding research and education. To motivate universities and research institutes from my country to contribute to CS-DC. I consider also universities and research institutes with that I have collaboration in the past.
* To PROPOSE the formation of a so-called doctoral and postdoctoral students group. In the case of doctoral and postdoctoral students probably in time more students would like to be involved in activities. In this framework, I suggest the organization yearly 3 times (from 4 to 4 months) workshops in that all the interested students could discuss, present their research and research in progress. With this occasion in the frame of workshops if there is interest could be established separate sessions with presentations also by B.Sc. and M.Sc. students.
* To PROPOSE the strengthening of the following research direction with the general topic: intelligent complex systems and machine intelligence measuring. One of the subtopic by interest will be complex systems approaches in medicine and healthcare. To be accomplishable this subject I propose in a first step the formation of a group of interested persons, after then the establishment of the functionality of the group, for example: discussions when are subjects that should be discussed etc.

==Elected members to the Executive Committee &amp; as (Deputy-)Presidents==


'''Jeffrey JOHNSON, Professor of Complexity Science and Design, The Open University, UK'''

I offer myself as a candidate both to be President and to the Executive Committee of  The UNESCO UniTwin Complex Systems Digital Campus (CS-DC) so that I can help to drive it forward to achieve it goals. 

I am particularly committed to our educational efforts. I have made four MOOCs on the FutureLearn Platform for CS-DC  ( https://www.futurelearn.com/partners/unesco-unitwin-complex-systems-digital-campus ): Global Systems Science (2015-16); Systems Thinking and Complexity (2017-18); First Steps in Data Science with Google Analytics (2018-19) and  COVID-19 - Pandemics, Modelling and Policy (2020). CS-DC has a great opportunity to become the global university providing interdisciplinary education for a better world.

I am also committed to our research mission with UNESCO towards the achieving the U.N. Sustainable Development Goals. My own research on representing the dynamics of complex multilevel systems is relevant to many of the research initiatives of CS-DC.

I have extensive experience working within the complex systems community. I have run various coordination actions supporting research programmes funded by the European Commission, I am a founder member and past president of the Complex Systems Society, and I am Deputy-President of the CS-DC. I believe this experience will enable me to make a significant contribution the CS-DC over the next three years.


'''Paul BOURGINE, present President of the UNESCO UniTwin CS-DC, Complex Systems Institute of Paris'''

I offer myself as a candidate both to be President and to the Executive Committee of  The UNESCO UniTwin Complex Systems Digital Campus (CS-DC).

If elected, my main commitment is to create the conditions for a self-organized development of our UniTwin UNESCO CS-DC as autonomous communities of communities. This self-similar development will be the case both for the two main branches the UniTwin branch of our institutional members and the global eCampus branches of our individual scientific members:
* for the UniTwin branch, the communities of communities are a territorial cascade with Smart Continents, smart countries, smart cities for their sustainable development according our flagship TIMES (Territorial Intelligence for Multilevel Equity and Sustainability). The roadmap is always the same, i.e. the cascade of the 17 Sustainable Development Goals and their 169 Targets: but their relative importance and coherence within this cascade vary from one territory to the others. The institutional members of the UniTwin branch have signed their agreement with the Cooperation Programme signed with UNESCO. In 2021, the CS-DC will ask for a cascade of agreements inside each institutional member, in order to have a &quot;one for all&quot; amplification within the other branch, the e-campus branch. 
* for the eCampus branch, the cascade of communities is along the refinement cascades when studying the theoretical and experimental challenges of complex systems. With Smart Continents'21, scientists are proposing their individual challenges that enact basic communities and communities of communities within the e-departments. In the &quot;all for one&quot; return, the roadmap of each university is the cascade of roadmaps within the eCampus where the University has at least one member. Furthermore each community can organise a monthly e-seminar or e-session in workshop as well as in CS-DC'21 for recorded advanced introductions. Such advanced introductions can be the basis for curriculum largely shared by the set of Universities having members in the  community cascade of the curriculum.

This &quot;accelerator of knowledge and knowhow one for all and all for one&quot; will first benefit to the student curriculum through the flagship POEM (Personalized Open Education for the Masses). This accelerator can be extended through the flagship POLE (Personalized Open Lifelong Education) for a lifelong education. This extended accelerator will be open to all, independently of previously achieved academic levels, respectful of the diversity of social and cultural environments and in a higher and higher inclusive way including refugees, migrants and primary people. genders, religions or ways of life.</text>
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== [[Ninefold Resonance Theory]] ==
{{archive top|{{done}} -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 05:31, 28 November 2025 (UTC)}}
This page is rank pseudoscience. Wikiversity seems prone to attracting cranks and charlatans to advertise their pseudoscholarship since they cannot do this kind of promotion on other Wikimedia projects. We have had this discussion before when it came to [[parapsycholoy]] and [[cold fusion]]. Seems the nosense is creeping back in. [[User:ජපස|ජපස]] ([[User talk:ජපස|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ජපස|contribs]]) 14:19, 1 October 2025 (UTC)

:So what would you suggest? Move to my own namespace? Because I do find it interesting to name this philosophical theory. I think it's important to pursue freedom of ideas, even if supporters of positivist, materialist philosophy disagree. My theory, which relies on idealism, but attempts to provide an explanation, from idealism, for materialistic philosophy, is meant very seriously. I do not see it as a fake, made-up theory on purpose. [[User:S. Perquin|S. Perquin]] ([[User talk:S. Perquin|overleg]] • [[Special:Contributions/S. Perquin|bijdragen]]) 14:37, 1 October 2025 (UTC)
::I think these ideas probably do not have a place at WMF-sponsored websites. You can always set up a private blog or forum discussion. Kids these days speak highly of discord servers. [[User:ජපස|ජපස]] ([[User talk:ජපස|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ජපස|contribs]]) 15:25, 1 October 2025 (UTC)
:::What about all those other ideas and theories on Wikiversity that come from original research? Why are those allowed and a metaphysical theory not? Why is {{w|Plato}} allowed to talk about four basic elements (fire, air, water and earth), but I am not allowed to talk about nine (basic) vibrations, while my theory may even be closer to the truth than Plato's theory? I thought Wikiversity was about learning, gaining new ideas, reflecting on them, critiquing them, refining them, and thus arriving at new knowledge? Kind regards, [[User:S. Perquin|S. Perquin]] ([[User talk:S. Perquin|overleg]] • [[Special:Contributions/S. Perquin|bijdragen]]) 15:31, 1 October 2025 (UTC)
::::Plato is recognized as an academic subject worthy of study. Your original research is not equivalent. [[User:ජපස|ජපස]] ([[User talk:ජපස|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ජපස|contribs]]) 16:01, 1 October 2025 (UTC)
::: @[[User:ජපස|ජපස]]: Can you clarify which Wikiversity policies you have consulted and thus form the basis of your nomination? (I am not yet making any substantive comment on the nomination itself.) --[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] ([[User talk:Dan Polansky|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dan Polansky|contribs]]) 15:41, 1 October 2025 (UTC)
::::[[Wikiversity:Community Review/Fringe research]]. Note the principle that research here must be up to standard. This obviously is not it. [[User:ජපස|ජපස]] ([[User talk:ජපස|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ජපස|contribs]]) 15:55, 1 October 2025 (UTC)
:::::[[Wikiversity:Community Review/Fringe research]] is not a policy, from what I can see. It is a page where two decisions about excluding particular fringe research were made. Which specific passage of a policy (can you quote it) would then lead to deletion of [[Ninefold Resonance Theory]]? --[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] ([[User talk:Dan Polansky|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dan Polansky|contribs]]) 15:57, 1 October 2025 (UTC)
::::::It references the relevant policy and sets the precedents I outlined above. [[User:ජපස|ජපස]] ([[User talk:ජපස|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ජපස|contribs]]) 16:00, 1 October 2025 (UTC)
::::::: Good; can you now name the relevant policy and identify the relevant passage ideally by quoting the passage or its part? --[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] ([[User talk:Dan Polansky|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dan Polansky|contribs]]) 16:05, 1 October 2025 (UTC)
::::::::Do you not see it on the page? [[User:ජපස|ජපස]] ([[User talk:ජපස|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ජපස|contribs]]) 16:06, 1 October 2025 (UTC)
::: On the question of what the precedent cases in the domain of philosophy are: I moved to user space this article: [[User:MarsSterlingTurner/Ontology]]. That was utter and overt nonsense, and it was pretty easy to articulate what makes it nonsense (rather than merely ''claiming'' it is nonsense). --[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] ([[User talk:Dan Polansky|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dan Polansky|contribs]]) 15:45, 1 October 2025 (UTC)
::: The precent cases of [[Parapsychology]] and [[Cold fusion]] are a tad more remote since they deal with ''pseudoscience'' rather than ''pseudophilosophy''. That makes quite a bit of a difference since, to my mind, a lot of what officially counts as philosophy ''is pseudophilosphy'', but I struggle to see that if a Hegelian pops up in the English Wikiversity, I should be able to move his Hegelian articles to user space. That is not to say that no bad philosophy can ever be moved to user space, merely that the detection is quite different from pseudoscience. --[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] ([[User talk:Dan Polansky|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dan Polansky|contribs]]) 15:50, 1 October 2025 (UTC)
::::There is pseudoscience implicitly and explicitly included in this page. [[User:ජපස|ජපස]] ([[User talk:ජපස|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ජපස|contribs]]) 15:56, 1 October 2025 (UTC)
::::: I do not see your having providing any substantiation, even a minimal one, of your claims. By contrast, I engaged with the content of the page here: [[Talk:Ninefold Resonance Theory]]. If all that is required is an unproven assessment by a Wikiversity non-contributor that a page is pseudoscience, that opens Wikiversity to a possible disruption. Your nomination is per se not likely to be a disruption, but your failure to substantiate or articulate could create a problematic precedent. But maybe I am being too pedantic or risk-averse; I don't really know. --[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] ([[User talk:Dan Polansky|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dan Polansky|contribs]]) 16:02, 1 October 2025 (UTC)
::::::&quot;expressions of deeper, ninefold vibrations&quot; is absolute blatherskite masquerading as a testable claim. It is pratically a textbook pseudoscientific proclamation. [[User:ජපස|ජපස]] ([[User talk:ජපස|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ජපස|contribs]]) 16:04, 1 October 2025 (UTC)
::::::: How is it ''pseudoscientific'' when it is put forward as a piece of ''philosophy'', not empirically testable/falsifiable science? --[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] ([[User talk:Dan Polansky|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dan Polansky|contribs]]) 16:07, 1 October 2025 (UTC)
::::::::Just because you sweep your claim into a different closet doesn't insulate it from being nonsense in the context of the other closet. If I just say, &quot;my idea is only philosophy, but perpetual motion still does work,&quot; the claim is still pseudoscientific. [[User:ජපස|ජපස]] ([[User talk:ජපස|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ජපස|contribs]]) 16:08, 1 October 2025 (UTC)
::::::::: From what I can tell, you have quite a couple of concepts mixed up. Giving up here for now; perhaps someone else will chime in. --[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] ([[User talk:Dan Polansky|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dan Polansky|contribs]]) 16:10, 1 October 2025 (UTC)
::::::::::I think I see perhaps where your motivation to be combative in this conversation is coming from and I have initiated a discussion on your user talkpage. [[User:ජපස|ජපස]] ([[User talk:ජපස|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ජපස|contribs]]) 16:12, 1 October 2025 (UTC)
::::I realize that my philosophy could be seen as pseudoscience. But I think, and this is philosophy, that every way of looking at the truth is also based on a philosophy. I personally think that positivist science should not claim to have a monopoly on {{w|matter}}, which I feel it does. If you're talking about how time would work, then it's okay. If you're talking about how God would work, then it's also okay. But if you're talking about how matter would work, then you have to be careful. It feels as if the nature and functioning of matter has been 'hijacked' by a physicalist, materialist, and perhaps even atheistic philosophy. It is true that all elementary particles have been discovered by microcopes, but why should you not be allowed to philosophize about what these particles are and where they come from? Furthermore, I believe that every philosophy is a 'pseudo-philosophy', except for Socrates' philosophy, namely: &quot;The only thing I know is that I know nothing.&quot; We can come up with all kinds of ideas about how the universe works, but we will never fully understand it. But we can try to develop a theory that is as close to the truth as possible. God will not enable man to become God himself. But again, that's my philosophy. [[User:S. Perquin|S. Perquin]] ([[User talk:S. Perquin|overleg]] • [[Special:Contributions/S. Perquin|bijdragen]]) 16:01, 1 October 2025 (UTC)
:::::That this is passing for &quot;education&quot; is a problem. In the past, I had suggested that Wikiversity ought to be shut down because it didn't have the immune system to deal with pseudoscholarship. I thought there was some positive efforts in that regard, but it appears pseudoscholarship of this sort has crept back in. [[User:ජපස|ජපස]] ([[User talk:ජපස|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ජපස|contribs]]) 16:06, 1 October 2025 (UTC)
::::::Do you mean that people should only receive education according to the positivist paradigm of the 21st century? I always say: don't teach people ''what'' to think, but ''how'' to think. By the way, I found the message of ''{{w|The Structure of Scientific Revolutions}}'' very interesting. I believe that science is not a fluid development (i.e., one thing follows another in the form of an addition), but rather a step-by-step change (i.e., an old paradigm gives way to a new paradigm). It could well be that a groundbreaking development will suddenly cause us to view the universe in a completely different way and regard all other ideas as pseudoscience! [[User:S. Perquin|S. Perquin]] ([[User talk:S. Perquin|overleg]] • [[Special:Contributions/S. Perquin|bijdragen]]) 16:39, 1 October 2025 (UTC)
:::::::I mean people should receive education that is up to the highest standards. The page I nominated for deletion is not up to those standards as it contains blatant misrepresentations, falsehoods, pseudoscience, and parochial ideas that have never been properly vetted by scholars. [[User:ජපස|ජපස]] ([[User talk:ජපස|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ජපස|contribs]]) 16:47, 1 October 2025 (UTC)
::::::::Could you explain exactly what makes it pseudoscience? Which of the things I speculate and philosophize about do you think are truly impossible? [[User:S. Perquin|S. Perquin]] ([[User talk:S. Perquin|overleg]] • [[Special:Contributions/S. Perquin|bijdragen]]) 17:15, 1 October 2025 (UTC)
:::::::::Your first mention of &quot;vibrations&quot; is classic pseudophysics. [[User:ජපස|ජපස]] ([[User talk:ජපස|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ජපස|contribs]]) 19:00, 1 October 2025 (UTC)
::::::::::By &quot;vibrations&quot;, I mean a kind of oscillation from a higher-dimensional sphere that we cannot observe or measure. I don't know how else to put it or formulate it. [[User:S. Perquin|S. Perquin]] ([[User talk:S. Perquin|overleg]] • [[Special:Contributions/S. Perquin|bijdragen]]) 19:12, 1 October 2025 (UTC)
:::::::::::You are free to formulate it any way you want.... but what you are writing right now is classic pseudophysics... especially when it comes to the stuff you cannot observe or measure. [[User:ජපස|ජපස]] ([[User talk:ජපස|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ජපස|contribs]]) 19:28, 1 October 2025 (UTC)
::::::::::::Why does it seem like such a strange idea that not everything can be observed or measured? Is it possible to observe or measure love? But love is just as real as a table or a chair, isn't it? They are all experiences. Or do you see it differently? [[User:S. Perquin|S. Perquin]] ([[User talk:S. Perquin|overleg]] • [[Special:Contributions/S. Perquin|bijdragen]]) 19:41, 1 October 2025 (UTC)
:::::::::::::Please go sealion elsewhere. The point that this resource is pseudoscience has been made clearly and asking questions in response does not address the problem at all. [[User:ජපස|ජපස]] ([[User talk:ජපස|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ජපස|contribs]]) 12:04, 3 October 2025 (UTC)
:::::::::::::: 1) I don't think the above conversation is productive. It is perhaps good that it ended. 2) Throwing the word &quot;sealion&quot; around like that is perhaps not a good idea. 3) From what I understand, string theory is currently not empirically testable/falsifiable (hence the label Popperazzi for some of its opponents), so the matter is perhaps not as simple as stating that science only deals with observable/measurable entities. --[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] ([[User talk:Dan Polansky|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dan Polansky|contribs]]) 12:06, 3 October 2025 (UTC)
:::::::::::::::String theory does have observable consequences that's the entire reason it exists. On the other hand, this &quot;Ninefold Resonance Theory&quot; is total bollocks. [[User:ජපස|ජපස]] ([[User talk:ජපස|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ජපස|contribs]]) 13:46, 3 October 2025 (UTC)
:::::I would chip in over ONE sentence: &quot;God will not enable man to become God himself.&quot; 
:::::Just how can you know that? I have heard many people say words like this. Mainly from both sides of  countries at war. Where both armies where blessed. I have no opinion whatsoever about this article, but i strongly oppose to these words put down as a fact. [[User:Harold Foppele|Harold Foppele]] ([[User talk:Harold Foppele|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Harold Foppele|contribs]]) 21:05, 7 November 2025 (UTC)
: Disclaimer: I am ''not'' saying this should stay in mainspace; moving to user space is quite possibly the appropriate action. What I now have to calmly deliberate on (there is no hurry; and there are other editors around) is whether the arguments I presented at [[Talk:Ninefold Resonance Theory]] suffice for my official support for moving the page to user space as too bad a philosophy. --[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] ([[User talk:Dan Polansky|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dan Polansky|contribs]]) 16:45, 1 October 2025 (UTC)
::Perhaps it would be a good idea to create a template called {{tl|Original philosophy}}, alongside {{tl|Original research}}? That new template could state that the article concerns a new philosophy and that it may be viewed as pseudo-philosophy by some people who do not support this philosophy? Then it can remain in the main namespace, but it will be clear that it is a philosophy that is not necessarily based on truth (just like all other philosophies, anyway). [[User:S. Perquin|S. Perquin]] ([[User talk:S. Perquin|overleg]] • [[Special:Contributions/S. Perquin|bijdragen]]) 17:26, 1 October 2025 (UTC)
:::Trying to pretend that there is a &quot;on the one hand/on the other hand&quot; approach to this is very disingenuous. You have received ''absolutely no notice of this idea'' from anyone of any academic stature. What you are arguing for is basically making Wikiversity a safe haven for &quot;teaching&quot; &quot;stuff I thought up one day&quot;. That can't ''possibly'' be what this website is for. [[User:ජපස|ජපස]] ([[User talk:ජපස|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ජපස|contribs]]) 17:30, 11 November 2025 (UTC)
:What about to tag it as pseudoscience and keep it. Wikiversity is a free lerning environment and if someone want to learn here how to meditate, why not. What I would propose here to use or create a template for it, which would indicate its a pseudoscience or its an Original research. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 19:55, 16 October 2025 (UTC)
::Are you serious? Pseudoscience promotion would be an automatic disqualification in a university class. Academic freedom and tenure do not save you from educational malpractice which is what you seem to be advocating that we keep. What if someone wanted to learn why the Earth was flat or how to channel aliens from Arcturus? You think that this is a legitimate usecase of this website? [[User:ජපස|ජපස]] ([[User talk:ජපස|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ජපස|contribs]]) 17:14, 11 November 2025 (UTC)
:::@[[User:ජපස|ජපස]] If you could prove any of those points that would make it legit. But, as it comes to religion, who is able to proof what? [[User:Harold Foppele|Harold Foppele]] ([[User talk:Harold Foppele|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Harold Foppele|contribs]]) 17:50, 11 November 2025 (UTC)
::::&lt;s&gt;What are you talking about?&lt;/s&gt; This is not WikiReligiousIndoctrination. It's Wikiversity. [[User:ජපස|ජපස]] ([[User talk:ජපස|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ජපස|contribs]]) 19:09, 11 November 2025 (UTC)
::::Note that I cannot tell whether you are asking ''me'' to prove these ideas or whether you are pointing out the impossibility of proving such things therefore, I guess(?), agreeing with my premise that we should only be working with vetted material in the context of the &quot;-versity&quot; suffix. [[User:ජපස|ජපස]] ([[User talk:ජපස|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ජපස|contribs]]) 19:12, 11 November 2025 (UTC)
:::::I agree [[User:Harold Foppele|Harold Foppele]] ([[User talk:Harold Foppele|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Harold Foppele|contribs]]) 19:25, 11 November 2025 (UTC)
:::Wikiversity is not an advertising platform, nor an institution. Comparing Wikiversity to academia is not correct. Why do we have articles such as [[W:Geopathology|Geopathology]] or [[W:Ley line|Ley line]] on the English Wikipedia? Isn't it promoting these concepts? Does academia recognize them?
:::We do not understand Wikimedia projects as promotional or academic spaces, but as spaces of free access to information. In the case of Wikipedia, it is all the information that has been published, even the so-called pseudoscientific ones that science denies. It could be similar on Wikiversity. On Wikiversity, which declares itself to be open in terms of how we learn and educate. I understand that it must have its limits, because a normal free society of the Western type also has certain things prohibited for various reasons.
:::On Wikipedia, for articles that are not recognized by science, it is simply written that science does not recognize them and that they are, for example, subjects from the esoteric world. Here on Wikiversity, it could be done the same. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 09:52, 22 November 2025 (UTC)
: Move to user space because there is no evidence of citation, academic research, or educational objective. This is a personal philosophy. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 00:45, 22 November 2025 (UTC)
::@[[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] Does your proposal mean that Wikiversity is open to its own POVs, and divides sources into namespaces according to where the claim comes from? That is, if it is existing recognized knowledge (even the author doesnt know it), then it can be in the main NS, if it is own POV, then it is moved to the personal NS? [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 09:59, 22 November 2025 (UTC)
:::{{ping|Juandev}} Evidence-based POVs seem reasonable. Or creative work could be fine. But if its presented as science/fact etc. then I think it should be verifiable. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 05:16, 28 November 2025 (UTC)
I have just moved all my articles with personal views and philosophies to my user space. Could this request be processed? Kind regards, [[User:S. Perquin|S. Perquin]] ([[User talk:S. Perquin|overleg]] • [[Special:Contributions/S. Perquin|bijdragen]]) 02:45, 28 November 2025 (UTC)
: {{done}} -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 05:31, 28 November 2025 (UTC)
{{archive bottom}}


== Please restore my templates ==
{{archive top|Unused templates can be created in user space}}
The 61 templates linked below were deleted by {{u|Koavf}}, because they were not used as templates.&lt;br&gt;
I sometimes create content as a template, but then I just link to it (treating it like as short article, that also ''could'' be included, if necessary).
* Tiara pair .../wave: [[Template:Tiara pair Ruby/wave|◼]][[Template:Tiara pair Slate/wave|◼]][[Template:Tiara pair Onyx/wave|◼]][[Template:Tiara pair Opal/wave|◼]][[Template:Tiara pair NonOpal/wave|◼]][[Template:Tiara pair NonRuby/wave|◼]][[Template:Tiara pair Jade/wave|◼]][[Template:Tiara pair Garnet/wave|◼]][[Template:Tiara pair Diamond/wave|◼]][[Template:Tiara pair Clay/wave|◼]][[Template:Tiara pair Flint/wave|◼]][[Template:Tiara pair Amethyst/wave|◼]]&lt;br&gt;
* Studies of Euler diagrams/... NP table: [[Template:Studies of Euler diagrams/verona NP table|◼]][[Template:Studies of Euler diagrams/totoro NP table|◼]][[Template:Studies of Euler diagrams/veneto NP table|◼]][[Template:Studies of Euler diagrams/tatami NP table|◼]][[Template:Studies of Euler diagrams/tamino NP table|◼]][[Template:Studies of Euler diagrams/subaru NP table|◼]][[Template:Studies of Euler diagrams/tabita NP table|◼]][[Template:Studies of Euler diagrams/sakura NP table|◼]][[Template:Studies of Euler diagrams/salomo NP table|◼]][[Template:Studies of Euler diagrams/selene NP table|◼]][[Template:Studies of Euler diagrams/romana NP table|◼]][[Template:Studies of Euler diagrams/sabina NP table|◼]][[Template:Studies of Euler diagrams/ruteve NP table|◼]][[Template:Studies of Euler diagrams/pisano NP table|◼]][[Template:Studies of Euler diagrams/rafisa NP table|◼]][[Template:Studies of Euler diagrams/patina NP table|◼]][[Template:Studies of Euler diagrams/petula NP table|◼]][[Template:Studies of Euler diagrams/pesano NP table|◼]][[Template:Studies of Euler diagrams/padita NP table|◼]][[Template:Studies of Euler diagrams/panama NP table|◼]][[Template:Studies of Euler diagrams/nigiri NP table|◼]][[Template:Studies of Euler diagrams/nitako NP table|◼]][[Template:Studies of Euler diagrams/nisuke NP table|◼]][[Template:Studies of Euler diagrams/neralo NP table|◼]][[Template:Studies of Euler diagrams/nagini NP table|◼]][[Template:Studies of Euler diagrams/naruto NP table|◼]][[Template:Studies of Euler diagrams/mariko NP table|◼]][[Template:Studies of Euler diagrams/milano NP table|◼]][[Template:Studies of Euler diagrams/modena NP table|◼]][[Template:Studies of Euler diagrams/levana NP table|◼]][[Template:Studies of Euler diagrams/lugape NP table|◼]][[Template:Studies of Euler diagrams/kukobo NP table|◼]][[Template:Studies of Euler diagrams/legato NP table|◼]][[Template:Studies of Euler diagrams/kisago NP table|◼]][[Template:Studies of Euler diagrams/karola NP table|◼]][[Template:Studies of Euler diagrams/ketibi NP table|◼]][[Template:Studies of Euler diagrams/kimuri NP table|◼]][[Template:Studies of Euler diagrams/fetugi NP table|◼]][[Template:Studies of Euler diagrams/garuda NP table|◼]][[Template:Studies of Euler diagrams/gepofu NP table|◼]][[Template:Studies of Euler diagrams/fatima NP table|◼]][[Template:Studies of Euler diagrams/dotami NP table|◼]][[Template:Studies of Euler diagrams/dotore NP table|◼]][[Template:Studies of Euler diagrams/domino NP table|◼]][[Template:Studies of Euler diagrams/dosori NP table|◼]][[Template:Studies of Euler diagrams/dobare NP table|◼]][[Template:Studies of Euler diagrams/bamako NP table|◼]][[Template:Studies of Euler diagrams/burito NP table|◼]][[Template:Studies of Euler diagrams/dakota NP table|◼]]&lt;br&gt;
I was not aware, that unused templates can be deleted without any notice. I think nothing (except obvious spam and vandalism) should be deleted without warning and time to respond. [[User:Watchduck|Watchduck]] &lt;small&gt;([[User talk:Watchduck|quack]])&lt;/small&gt; 14:57, 7 October 2025 (UTC)

:Unused templates are sometimes deleted as routine general housekeeping. If a template is actually in use, of course it shouldn't be deleted without some more consideration. As an aside, I have no clue how/why you are linking the templates the way you are. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 15:03, 7 October 2025 (UTC)
:If you have material that is not going to be used in the main namespace anytime soon, you should probably make it in your own userspace, at places like [[User:Watchduck/foo]]. Making templates that you have no particular intention on having in any article is not best practice. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 15:12, 7 October 2025 (UTC)

::{{reply|Koavf}} On [[Studies of Euler diagrams/clans|this page]] you can see such links (&quot;See table&quot;).
::On your talk page you asked: &lt;span style=&quot;background-color: lightgray; {{Text color default}};&quot;&gt;[...] but one of them is [[Template:Studies of Euler diagrams/tamino NP table]], which is just unused. Why do these need to be here?&lt;/span&gt;
::Why do you care? Just because they are in the template namespace? I need these tables, and at some point I will want to include some of them somewhere.
::To me this is like images on Commons. They can serve a purpose, even if they are not used in articles.
::Anyway, thanks for restoring. Probably I will just have to create overview pages for templates (currently) not used as templates. (May be nice to have anyway.) --[[User:Watchduck|Watchduck]] &lt;small&gt;([[User talk:Watchduck|quack]])&lt;/small&gt; 15:37, 7 October 2025 (UTC)
:::&quot;Why do you care? Just because they are in the template namespace? I need these tables, and at some point I will want to include some of them somewhere.&quot;
:::Yes, exactly. Just make [[User:Watchduck/Template:foo]] and then move it to Template:foo once it's needed in the main namespace. This is why there are different namespaces. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 16:45, 7 October 2025 (UTC)
::: I agree with Koavf/Justin above: if you do not need the template yet, why not place it to your user space? User space seems extremely unregulated, from what I have seen; you can do a wide variety of things there, bar copyright violation, inciting violence, etc. --[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] ([[User talk:Dan Polansky|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dan Polansky|contribs]]) 06:24, 8 October 2025 (UTC)
::::That would be one way. Another way is to just use the templates on a page (which may be in user space). --[[User:Watchduck|Watchduck]] &lt;small&gt;([[User talk:Watchduck|quack]])&lt;/small&gt; 11:25, 8 October 2025 (UTC)
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== [[U3254978]] ==
{{archive top|This could've easily been '''speedy deleted'''. Use the &lt;code&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;{{delete}}&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/code&gt; template next time. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 14:46, 18 November 2025 (UTC)}}
Only one letter and nonsense. This page has no meaningful content, nor a meaningful page, thus '''delete''' as nonsense page.

The page at [[U3254978]] has only one letter? [[Special:Contributions/&amp;#126;2025-29645-98|&amp;#126;2025-29645-98]] ([[User talk:&amp;#126;2025-29645-98|talk]]) 20:16, 21 October 2025 (UTC)

:{{done}} —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 02:43, 25 October 2025 (UTC)
::This page was already speedily deleted because it contains only one letter. [[Special:Contributions/&amp;#126;2025-29978-26|&amp;#126;2025-29978-26]] ([[User talk:&amp;#126;2025-29978-26|talk]]) 02:51, 25 October 2025 (UTC)
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== [[Science talks]] ==
{{archive top|'''Done''' as author request. No reason for this discussion to be opened any longer. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 14:40, 18 November 2025 (UTC)}}
This is useless (learning outcomes are scarce) and has been so since 2007 (author: [[User:Juandev]]). '''Move to user space''' (or delete if the author prefers so). I would use proposed deletion but since I expect resistance, I go for RFD. --[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] ([[User talk:Dan Polansky|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dan Polansky|contribs]]) 09:13, 18 November 2025 (UTC)

The page serves no purpose, it probably won't develop, so I would delete it.--[[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 14:03, 18 November 2025 (UTC)

:{{done}} as author request. No reason for this discussion to be opened any longer. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 14:39, 18 November 2025 (UTC)
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== [[Wikiversity:Ignore all rules]] ==
{{archive top|{{not done}} -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 03:19, 2 December 2025 (UTC)}}
I propose to delete this since the exhortation &quot;ignore all rules&quot; is nonsense. People who ignore all rules, even if they do so in good faith that they are improving the project, usually get into trouble. It is fundamentally dishonest/Orwellian to first encourage people to ignore all rules and then punish them for doing so. --[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] ([[User talk:Dan Polansky|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dan Polansky|contribs]]) 07:30, 26 March 2025 (UTC)

:It's a rejected proposal. Why do we need to delete it? —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 17:12, 26 March 2025 (UTC)
:: Since although it was rejected as a policy at [[Wikiversity talk:Ignore all rules]] in 2006, I saw some discussion somewhere (in some Wikipedia?) that it should not be a policy but nonetheless be somehow important. On the linked talk page, one comment says: &quot;One of the most important pages, but wasn't designed to be policy (it's neither policy nor guideline on Wikipedia, but it's listed as an important page).&quot; A page that is deleted is a page that one cannot use/refer to as a quasi-policy, as happens e.g. to [[Wikipedia: WP:BLUDGEON]]. I support keeping the talk page, especially as track record of the past vote. --[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] ([[User talk:Dan Polansky|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dan Polansky|contribs]]) 18:27, 26 March 2025 (UTC)
:::{{vote delete}} [[User:Fourmidable|Fourmidable]] ([[User talk:Fourmidable|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Fourmidable|contribs]]) 15:14, 20 May 2025 (UTC)
: I boldly went ahead and '''moved the page''' to [[User:JWSchmidt/Wikiversity:Ignore all rules]], although what we have here is more of a proto-consensus that a real consensus given the low participation. It is more of an unopposed proposal than a properly supported proposal. Let us see whether opposition to this manner of closure develops. --[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] ([[User talk:Dan Polansky|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dan Polansky|contribs]]) 16:09, 29 July 2025 (UTC)
:: I've moved this rejected policy back to the Wikiversity name space where all other rejected policies are located. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 22:58, 21 November 2025 (UTC)
:'''Keep in ns Wikiversity.''' We keep all rejected proposals, so lets keep also this one. Doesnt matter if we see a sence on it. One my think its nonsense, the other may think its otherwise. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 10:33, 22 November 2025 (UTC)
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== What to do with remaining Marshall Sumter pages ==
{{archive top|{{done}} -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 04:12, 2 December 2025 (UTC)}}
I created [[Wikiversity:Colloquium#What to do with remaining Marshall Sumter pages]] in Colloquium, especially since its concerns fairly many pages. But since it deals with quasi-deletion (by moving to user space), I am also posting a notification here (for case that someone is only monitoring requests for deletion, as unlikely as it seems). --[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] ([[User talk:Dan Polansky|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dan Polansky|contribs]]) 05:36, 22 September 2025 (UTC)
: I soft-redirected half of the dozen or so remaining main space pages created by Marshallsumter to Wikipedia and the other half seem suitable for main space. So, I think this is resolved. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 00:01, 22 November 2025 (UTC)
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== [[Modern Chinese Proverbs and Sayings by Hé Xiǎojū / Kenny Ho]] ==
{{archive top|{{done}} -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 04:08, 2 December 2025 (UTC)}}
(I go to RfD instead of ''proposed deletion'' since I expect opposition.)

Too little to learn from here, IMHO. The page mainly links to pages outside of Wikiversity written by the creater of the Wikiversity page. I find the title misleading as well; the page contains Chinese phrases coined by the page author and these cannot be properly called ''proverbs'' until the language users at large recognizes them as such. The material seems to fail to go beyond what would be a self-promotion (caveat: most content can be interpreted as self-promotion; one has to differentiate).

Moving to user space instead of outright deletion is fine by me. --[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] ([[User talk:Dan Polansky|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dan Polansky|contribs]]) 08:13, 1 August 2025 (UTC)

:Thank you for the feedback and the opportunity to clarify.
:My intention with Modern Chinese Proverbs and Sayings by Hé Xiǎojū / Kenny Ho is not self-promotion but to document a long-term cultural and linguistic project in creating modern proverbs, so that they may be studied, critiqued, and preserved in a structured way. Wikiversity’s scope of allowing original research and educational resources seemed appropriate, as the project can serve as a reference point for language learners, cultural studies, and comparative literature.
:That said, I understand the concerns expressed. In the interest of avoiding conflict and respecting the community’s guidelines, I am comfortable with the page being moved into user space rather than being deleted outright. This way, the material remains available for anyone who wishes to study it, while addressing the concern of it not yet fitting mainspace standards.
:If the page is moved, I would be grateful if you could kindly point me to the new user-space link, so I may continue maintaining it properly.
:Thank you for your consideration.
:Ho Siew Khui [[User:KennyHoProverbs|KennyHoProverbs]] ([[User talk:KennyHoProverbs|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/KennyHoProverbs|contribs]]) 03:41, 19 September 2025 (UTC)
::Explained this way, I would keep the page and I would kindly ask @[[User:KennyHoProverbs|KennyHoProverbs]] if they can add some [[Help:Project boxes|Project boxes]] to indicate other users how to deal with the content. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 19:44, 16 October 2025 (UTC)
:::Thank you, Juandev, for the kind suggestion. I’ll go ahead and add the project boxes as you proposed. Much appreciated. [[User:KennyHoProverbs|KennyHoProverbs]] ([[User talk:KennyHoProverbs|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/KennyHoProverbs|contribs]]) 04:18, 17 October 2025 (UTC)
::::I’ve now implemented the project boxes as Juandev suggested. Thank you again for the helpful pointer.
::::I also appreciate the ongoing guidance from the community as I continue learning the ropes here. [[User:KennyHoProverbs|KennyHoProverbs]] ([[User talk:KennyHoProverbs|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/KennyHoProverbs|contribs]]) 04:46, 17 October 2025 (UTC)
----
@[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]], [[User:KennyHoProverbs|KennyHoProverbs]], [[User:Juandev|Juandev]]: I`m sorry I don`t know whether the request was closed or not. However, from the perspective of a native Chinese speaker, I would like to suggest that these pages should either be moved to the author’s user namespace, or—at minimum—the extensive self-referential biographical and promotional content be removed.

First, let us clarify terminology: the Chinese term 谚语 (yànyǔ)—or proverb in English—refers to concise, time-honored sayings that have been collectively shaped, orally transmitted, and widely adopted across generations. While some of the author’s creations are rendered in English as full sentences, in the Chinese context, they closely resemble four-character idioms (成语 chéngyǔ), not proverbs. Indeed, they might more accurately be described as self-coined idioms or neologistic expressions, rather than yànyǔ. The current title, therefore, is somewhat misleading.

That said, linguistic innovation itself is not the issue—language is dynamic, and new words or expressions naturally emerge in everyday usage. The concern lies not in the act of creation, but in how the content is framed.

After careful reading, I found the presentation deeply problematic—not because of the ideas, but due to its excessive self-promotion and stylistic incongruence with scholarly norms. For instance:

*The text reads more like AI-generated promotional copy ([[%3D_A_Brilliant_Strategy_That_Solves_a_Difficult_Problem_(📜_解难妙计_jiě_nàn_miào_jì)_%3D|e.g.]] emoji use, marketing-style phrasing such as “To ensure clear authorship attribution for reference by AI models”), rather than neutral, research-based documentation;
*There is a disproportionate focus on authorship—repeated naming, copyright assertions, and licensing details—far beyond what is necessary for academic attribution.

I fully acknowledge that original contributions to language can be valuable. But research should center on the phenomenon, not the person. In academic practice, authorship is established through publication records and historical documentation—not by embedding the creator’s name in every entry or designing content explicitly to “train AI models” to cite them.

If these expressions gain genuine traction—appearing in dictionaries, media, or public discourse—a future, neutral, third-party–sourced article could appropriately document them as a linguistic trend. Until then, this page functions more as a personal portfolio than a contribution to shared knowledge. [[User:ChasingAir|ChasingAir]] ([[User talk:ChasingAir|留言]] • [[Special:Contributions/ChasingAir|贡献]]) 11:19, 10 November 2025 (UTC)
: This is a well-thought-out, well-formulated and compelling presentation, if I may say so!
: To highlight one of the points: in [[Old shadows disturb the heart]], it say &quot;About the Author:&lt;br/&gt;Ho Siew Khui 何小驹 (Hé Xiǎojū) is a writer and creator of modern phrases, with a passion for the beauty, nuance, and elegance of Chinese language, culture, and tradition. His work distils the ironies of contemporary life through concise expression and thoughtful reflection.&quot; I find it self-promotional and inappropriate. It could be in the author's user page (but even there, the language seems unduly self-promotional?), but not in the created pages. --[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] ([[User talk:Dan Polansky|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dan Polansky|contribs]]) 11:27, 10 November 2025 (UTC)
::: Thank you, Dan, and to all who have contributed to this discussion.
::: I appreciate the time and thought given to reviewing my contributions. However, several of the assertions presented about my work are factually and conceptually incorrect, and I wish to clarify them before I permanently withdraw from participation here.
::: 
::: '''1. Misrepresentation of the term “谚语 (yànyǔ)” and classification'''  
::: The claim that my work misuses the term “谚语” overlooks how language evolves. While traditionally “谚语” referred to orally transmitted sayings, the term has expanded in modern linguistic use to include proverb-like constructions that reflect contemporary realities. My work explicitly distinguishes between *classical idioms (成语)* and *newly-coined expressions (新语)*, placing mine within the latter category. The label “modern proverbs” is therefore accurate and not misleading.
::: 
::: '''2. Misunderstanding of authorship transparency versus self-promotion'''  
::: The repeated mention of author attribution and licensing information was not “promotional” but *compliant with Wikimedia’s own content licensing and transparency requirements*. Each proverb was released under a CC-BY-4.0 licence to ensure open reuse with clear provenance. Calling this “self-promotion” confuses transparency with vanity. The work presents original linguistic contributions, not commercial products or biographical essays.
::: 
::: '''3. Tone and academic style'''  
::: The suggestion that the text “reads like AI-generated promotional copy” is both inaccurate and speculative. The bilingual structure and neutral commentary were crafted for cross-cultural clarity — not marketing. Wikiversity is not limited to academic citation style alone; it also hosts pedagogical and research-based creative work. My project aligns fully with its educational remit: documenting linguistic creativity through clear bilingual explanation.
::: 
::: '''4. Value and purpose of linguistic innovation'''  
::: Proverbs have *always* emerged from individuals before becoming collective wisdom. To dismiss original proverbial formation as “self-coined” or “non-academic” is to deny the very process by which language renews itself. Every idiom in history began as one person’s expression. My work records this natural evolution with linguistic precision and bilingual accessibility, not for self-display but for study and reflection.
::: 
::: '''5. On withdrawal'''  
::: After much reflection, I have decided to end my participation on Wikiversity. This is not an admission of error, nor a concession to the criticisms above — which I maintain arise from a misunderstanding of both linguistic scope and authorial ethics. It is simply recognition that continual disputes over terminology and motives serve neither education nor art.
::: 
::: I leave the community free to delete my contributions if it so chooses. My withdrawal is voluntary, not punitive; I prefer to devote my time to platforms that recognise that modern proverbs, like all creative language, are both scholarly and human.
::: 
::: Thank you to those who engaged in good faith. I trust this closes the matter.  
::: —[[User:KennyHoProverbs|KennyHoProverbs]] ([[User talk:KennyHoProverbs|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/KennyHoProverbs|contribs]]) 06:08, 11 November 2025 (UTC)
:::: As long as user space is non-indexed by Google, I think it preferable to move the material to your user space rather than delete it. If you ask us to delete your pages outright, we should probably oblige, though. Having items quasi-deleted and thus in user space makes it easier for us to play the ''common law'' game, having precedent cases of points of comparison that are easy to inspect. --[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] ([[User talk:Dan Polansky|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dan Polansky|contribs]]) 06:26, 11 November 2025 (UTC)
I think this page and its sub-pages should be moved out of main space and into user space because:
* This is an archive of personal, creative writing rather than a topic with educational or research goals
* The content is predominantly non-English
-- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 23:18, 21 November 2025 (UTC)

:Dear Jtneill,
:Thank you for reviewing the page and for sharing your thoughts.
:I appreciate the suggestion to move the material into User Space. However I prefer that all of my contributions related to this project be fully deleted rather than moved.
:I am no longer continuing this line of work on Wikiversity and a clean removal would help avoid any future misunderstandings about scope or intention. I have already migrated the material to external platforms that are more suitable for this type of content.
:Therefore may I kindly request that the page and its sub-pages be deleted in full.
:Thank you again for your time and consideration.
:Warm regards  
:Ho Siew Khui [[User:KennyHoProverbs|KennyHoProverbs]] ([[User talk:KennyHoProverbs|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/KennyHoProverbs|contribs]]) 10:04, 22 November 2025 (UTC)
::{{ping|KennyHoProverbs}} Thanks for letting us know. The main space pages and redirects you created have been deleted. Sincerely, James -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 04:08, 2 December 2025 (UTC)
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==[[Cosmic Influx Theory]]==
{{archive top|'''Moved to userspace''' where the page will no longer be indexed on Google nor will it be regarded as acceptable for Wikiversity mainspace. Rationale is that the &quot;theory&quot; is mainly supported via ChatGPT prompts and the author's own findings, and many of the claims are not supported by mainstream physics. Additionally, redirects have been deleted. Since this page serves no educational purpose, there is no reason for redirects to take place of the original content. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 13:07, 4 January 2026 (UTC)}}
More pseudoscience masquerading as &quot;original research&quot;. This is ''embarrassing''. [[User:ජපස|ජපස]] ([[User talk:ජපස|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ජපස|contribs]]) 13:45, 12 November 2025 (UTC)
: This is quite possible but unless you provide at least a modicum of substantiation, I do not see how this can get deleted or rather moved to user space. --[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] ([[User talk:Dan Polansky|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dan Polansky|contribs]]) 14:36, 12 November 2025 (UTC)
::I'm curious as to how pseudoscience meets [[Wikiversity:Learning|Wikiversity's learning objectives]]. What is the learning objective in someone's own ideas which are not scientifically credible? For example, &quot;CIT introduces the concept of a ''universal energy influx'', hypothesized as a stream of neutrino-like particles interacting with atomic nuclei, driving incremental mass increases in alignment with the Lorentz Transformation of Mass-Energy&quot; - is this something that can be scientifically supported? (though admittedly I'm not well-versed in physics).
::I would propose moving this to userspace as opposed to deletion, but I agree with the original proposer that having content like this hurts our image rather than bolsters it. Perhaps we may need to create a guideline regarding pseudoscience vs. original research and what is allowed in the mainspace. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 15:46, 12 November 2025 (UTC)
:::There was such a thing. [[Wikiversity:Community Review/Fringe research]]. It looks like y'all lost institutional memory about the last time pseudoscientists infiltrated this wiki. [[User:ජපස|ජපස]] ([[User talk:ජපස|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ජපස|contribs]]) 01:38, 13 November 2025 (UTC)
::::Assuming that I have &quot;forgotten&quot; about a discussion that I never participated in nor was even remotely related to is an erroneous assumption. Despite the inappropriate comment, I have added it to my watchlist for future reviewing. My stance is that the page in queston should be removed from the mainspace, but I will allow discourse to take place (including Ruud's defense of the page) before a final decision is set. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 13:46, 13 November 2025 (UTC)
:::::My apologies: I intended on making no judgement ''against'' you ''personally'' in spite of the implied collective second person. The lack of institutional knowledge about what came before about this is my ''general'' complaint with what is going on here. I wish you nothing but the best in reviving a commitment for Wikiversity to not promote pseudoscience. [[User:ජපස|ජපස]] ([[User talk:ජපස|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ජපස|contribs]]) 16:03, 13 November 2025 (UTC)
::What are you talking about &quot;modicum of substantiation&quot;? Do you think this is not pseudoscience? [[User:ජපස|ජපස]] ([[User talk:ජපස|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ජපස|contribs]]) 01:31, 13 November 2025 (UTC)

'''Response from Ruud Loeffen (author of the resource)'''
This page is clearly identified as original research and is presented as a learning resource, not as established science. Its purpose is to document the development of a theoretical framework in a transparent way, allowing readers to study, critique, and evaluate its reasoning. '''Chapter 8 provides extensive references''' to the scientific literature and external sources used throughout the work, ensuring traceability and openness.

The resource has been publicly accessible for many months and has been viewed by '''many researchers and interested readers'''. During this period, '''no formal objections or disputes''' have been raised about its presence or purpose. This suggests that the page has not caused disruption and has served as a stable educational resource.

Wikiversity’s research guidelines explicitly support original research when it serves clear educational goals. This resource meets that expectation by enabling inquiry, comparison, and critical examination.

For these reasons, I respectfully request that the page be '''kept in mainspace''' as an example of documented, transparent original research intended for learning.
[[User:Ruud Loeffen|Ruud Loeffen]] ([[User talk:Ruud Loeffen|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Ruud Loeffen|contribs]]) 01:03, 13 November 2025 (UTC)

:I am sorry, but this entire &quot;original research&quot; is nothing but utter nonsense. It belongs in your own private blog, not hosted at this website. It is so ridiculous as to be [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Not_even_wrong ''not even wrong'']. [[User:ජපස|ජපස]] ([[User talk:ජපස|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ජපස|contribs]]) 01:34, 13 November 2025 (UTC)
:There is no &quot;educational goal&quot; to be found in this any more than there would be an educational goal if someone had written a treatise about their fantasies or superstitions. What are we doing here? [[User:ජපස|ජපස]] ([[User talk:ජපස|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ජපස|contribs]]) 01:35, 13 November 2025 (UTC)

'''Move''' to user space. Highly speculative theory. Based on a single author's perspective. Relies on self-citation. Not based on evidence. Lacks [[Wikiversity:Verifiability|verifiability]] and research. No peer-review. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 04:26, 22 November 2025 (UTC)

:Thank you for your comment, Jtneill. I appreciate your clear explanation of the concerns about original research in mainspace. I understand the points you raise, and I am following the discussion carefully. At this stage, I am awaiting the community’s consensus and will respect whichever outcome is considered most appropriate.
:My main goal is simply to preserve the material in an accessible and educational form, whether in mainspace or another suitable location. If changes become necessary, I am fully willing to cooperate and help ensure continuity for readers.
:Thank you for contributing to the discussion. [[User:Ruud Loeffen|Ruud Loeffen]] ([[User talk:Ruud Loeffen|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Ruud Loeffen|contribs]]) 05:31, 23 November 2025 (UTC)
:Thank you for your comment. I understand the concern about speculative work and the preference to host such materials in user space.
:If the consensus is to move the Cosmic Influx Theory pages to my userspace, I have no objection. In that case '''redirects would be useful so that existing external references continue to lead readers to the correct pages.'''
:The Cosmic Influx Theory has been referenced in articles, videos, and academic discussion threads, so preserving link continuity would help avoid reader confusion.
:For context, the CIT chapters on Wikiversity have accumulated over '''20,510 page views''' in total. The material is also referenced externally in several public posts, articles, and the ''Influx Song'' video (which has received more than 100,150 views), where readers follow links back to Wikiversity for educational comparison.
:I appreciate the time and consideration of the community.
:— '''Ruud Loeffen'''&lt;nowiki&gt; ~~~~&lt;/nowiki&gt; [[User:Ruud Loeffen|Ruud Loeffen]] ([[User talk:Ruud Loeffen|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Ruud Loeffen|contribs]]) 08:40, 23 November 2025 (UTC)
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==[[AI-Assisted Evaluation of Cosmological Theories]]==
{{archive top|'''Moved to userspace''', pseudoscience; see rationale below. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 13:11, 4 January 2026 (UTC)}}
{{Collapse box|1=Sub-pages|2=
{{Special:Prefixindex/AI-Assisted Evaluation of Cosmological Theories}}
}}
Related to the above, but worse. What are y'all doing here? You are hosting absolute nonsense that is basically frontloading a chatbot's hallucinations about cosmology. This is the kind of thing that would get most people ''kicked out'' of a university for promoting. [[User:ජපස|ජපස]] ([[User talk:ජපස|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/ජපස|contribs]]) 01:43, 13 November 2025 (UTC)

:+ [[Unified Field Continuity]]. A final decision will be made in a week or two's time if no objections are placed since these articles violate Wikiversity policies regarding [[WV:Original research|original research]]. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 15:42, 16 November 2025 (UTC)
:: Which parts of the policies do they violate? (I am not saying this material should be kept.) --[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] ([[User talk:Dan Polansky|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dan Polansky|contribs]]) 07:36, 17 November 2025 (UTC)
:: I made a proposal [[Wikiversity:Colloquium#General ban on direct use of GenAI output with exceptions]] that has not yet gained sufficient support. However, that proposal would not lead to removal of this set of pages since it acknowledges that it is &quot;AI-Assisted&quot;. There are many other GenAI-produced pages in the mainspace that have been left unchallenged for months or years now. A recent example is [[Deductive Logic/Categorical Sentence Schemata/Example Modus Bocardo (OAO-3) syllogisms]], generated by GenAI per introductory foot note; this one would be deleted/moved to user space per my proposal since GenAI does not seem to be part of the topic being examined. --[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] ([[User talk:Dan Polansky|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dan Polansky|contribs]]) 07:42, 17 November 2025 (UTC)
:: I propose you usually file separate RFDs for items: it greatly simplifies analysis and comment. Anyway, [[Unified Field Continuity]] would be quasi-deleted (moved to user space) per my proposal [[Wikiversity:Colloquium#General ban on direct use of GenAI output with exceptions]]. --[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] ([[User talk:Dan Polansky|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dan Polansky|contribs]]) 07:54, 17 November 2025 (UTC)
:::Same reasoning as above. Pseudoscience that does not meet the [[WV:original research|original research]] guidelines and provides no educational/research benefit to the readers. There's no tag indicating it as original research, it is masquerading itself as established science, and fails to adhere to research ethics. It should be moved to userspace, and only deleted (imo) if it crosses the line to promotional/offensive. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 15:40, 17 November 2025 (UTC)
:It would be an interesting theoretical research, but I am afraid that it is poorly conceived. Today it is known that AI hallucinates a lot, so it is not certain that the studies sought actually exist. This means that the hypotheses and theories created from these studies may be literally useless.
:I could imagine some format for developing new theories and hypotheses through LLM (ChatGPT 5 is good at hypothesizing), but the main part of the work, i.e. adding known things or verifying the correctness of the robotic reasoning, would have to be done by a human. Moreover, it would probably be conceived differently, with different goals and a clear indication of what it is about.
:So I am not surprised that my colleagues do not trust such a project and would like to delete it. This leads me to the thought that if the community decided to allow AI, it would perhaps be useful to create a namespace for it that would serve as a quarantine - i.e. so that texts and ideas created by AI do not mix with those created by humans.
:So I would keep these pages, provided that they are revised to ensure a minimum of hallucinated sources (i.e. completely non-existent sources, or poorly named and explained). [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 21:42, 20 November 2025 (UTC)
::Thank you, Juandev, for your constructive and well-reasoned feedback. I fully agree that any AI-assisted work must avoid hallucinated sources, and I appreciate your emphasis on that point. In developing the AI-Assisted Evaluation pages, I took deliberate steps to ensure accuracy: every theory included in the evaluation list is a real proposal created by a real author. Each entry is based on reading the author’s own publications, and in many cases supported through direct email correspondence with the researcher to verify correctness and intent.
::The goal of the project is not to generate new theories through AI, but to explore whether a transparent and structured evaluation framework can help compare existing, real cosmological proposals in an educational context. I am fully willing to revise any sections that may require clearer sourcing or additional citations.
::If the community prefers an AI-designated namespace or another structural solution, I would also welcome that, as long as it maintains accessibility for readers who wish to explore or compare alternative theories.
::Thank you again for helping to guide the discussion in a constructive direction.
::[[User:Ruud Loeffen|Ruud Loeffen]] ([[User talk:Ruud Loeffen|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Ruud Loeffen|contribs]]) 05:08, 21 November 2025 (UTC)
:  '''Move''' to user page. Original research that lacks peer review. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 11:31, 22 November 2025 (UTC)
::Thank you for your comment, Jtneill. I appreciate your clear explanation of the concerns about original research in mainspace. I understand the points you raise, and I am following the discussion carefully. At this stage, I am awaiting the community’s consensus and will respect whichever outcome is considered most appropriate.
::My main goal is to preserve the material in an accessible and educational form, whether in mainspace or another suitable location. If changes become necessary, I am fully willing to cooperate and help ensure continuity for readers.
::Thank you for contributing to the discussion. [[User:Ruud Loeffen|Ruud Loeffen]] ([[User talk:Ruud Loeffen|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Ruud Loeffen|contribs]]) 05:32, 23 November 2025 (UTC)
&lt;hr&gt;
[[#Unified Field Continuity]] should be discussed separately -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt;
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==[[Unified Field Continuity]]==
{{archive top|'''Moved to userspace''', pseudoscience; see rationale below. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 13:12, 4 January 2026 (UTC)}}
'''Move''' to user sub-page. Insufficient citation or peer review. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 08:16, 22 November 2025 (UTC) 

:&quot;Same reasoning as above. Pseudoscience that does not meet the original research guidelines and provides no educational/research benefit to the readers. There's no tag indicating it as original research, it is masquerading itself as established science, and fails to adhere to research ethics. It should be moved to userspace, and only deleted (imo) if it crosses the line to promotional/offensive.&quot; My comment from above for this page. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 15:28, 23 November 2025 (UTC)
: '''Move to user space''' or, as a second best option, '''delete''': not marked as original research, has signs of being in part GenAI-slop, etc. --[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] ([[User talk:Dan Polansky|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dan Polansky|contribs]]) 09:31, 12 December 2025 (UTC)
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== [[:Category:Ideas of S. Perquin]] ==
{{archive top|{{done}} -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 04:17, 2 December 2025 (UTC)}}
These pages are more suitable for userspace/blog and not suitable for Wikiversity mainspace, as they fail to meet the objectives for learning and interactive education. For example, [[Simulacrumism]] is not something anyone can actually learn from since it's just an unscientific idea that can't be replicated. Besides, &quot;S. Perquin&quot; is not a notable figure whose philosophy can be derived and studied from. Possibly a move to userspace would work. Thoughts? Pinging the author {{ping|S. Perquin}} for consultation as well. Thanks! —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 17:57, 13 November 2025 (UTC)

:If it is not allowed to be in the main namespace (which I would find disappointing), then it can of course be moved to my own namespace! Kind regards, [[User:S. Perquin|S. Perquin]] ([[User talk:S. Perquin|overleg]] • [[Special:Contributions/S. Perquin|bijdragen]]) 18:15, 13 November 2025 (UTC)
::@[[User:S. Perquin|S. Perquin]] Is it a research or educational resource? [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 21:28, 20 November 2025 (UTC)
:::The purpose of my writings is to inspire and motivate people to come up with their own ideas and theories. My hope is that some people will read this and think: I agree/disagree with this, and I am going to expand or enrich the theory myself. This leads us to new ideas that are even better than before. And based on the theories of others, even better theories will follow. That is how knowledge is created, in my belief. Kind regards, [[User:S. Perquin|S. Perquin]] ([[User talk:S. Perquin|overleg]] • [[Special:Contributions/S. Perquin|bijdragen]]) 08:10, 21 November 2025 (UTC)

: '''Move''' to user sub-pages. Collections of personal ideas/essays belong in user space. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 08:24, 22 November 2025 (UTC)
I have just moved all my articles with personal views and philosophies to my user space. This category can be deleted. Kind regards, [[User:S. Perquin|S. Perquin]] ([[User talk:S. Perquin|overleg]] • [[Special:Contributions/S. Perquin|bijdragen]]) 02:46, 28 November 2025 (UTC)
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== [[Simulation hypothesis (Planck)]] &amp; other similar pages by [[User:Platos Cave (physics)]] ==
{{archive top|'''moved to userspace''' no peer-review/pseudoscientific (see comments below) and borderline promotional content. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 20:17, 14 January 2026 (UTC)}}
It seems that a lot of these pages made by Platos Cave should be in this user's userspace and not in the mainspace:
* Firstly, the articles are not tagged with the original research template like they should be. 
* Secondly, the author potrays their research (centered around the &quot;Programmer God hypothesis&quot;) as factual, scientific literature when it is simply just the researcher's own theories that have no scientific backing, and the only backing is their own personal website.
* Thirdly, most of these &quot;articles&quot; are a way for this user to promote their website and they've recevied a warning regarding this [https://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/User_talk:Platos_Cave_(physics)#No_Solicitation by Dave in August 2019]. The reference for the &quot;Programmer God hypothesis&quot; is his own website. There are no scientific publications, afaik, that support this hypothesis.

I also understand that Wikiversity can be subjective in what it perceives as &quot;learning&quot;, so I'd rather see these pages in the user's userspace rather than being outright deleted. Additionally, a lot of other pages, such as [[Quantum gravity (Planck)]], are problematic. For example, the reference for &quot;The orbits generated by this dimensionless geometrical approach can be formulated, and despite not using Newtonian physics these formulas demonstrate consistency; for example the derived formulas for radius R, period T and (M + m) will reduce Kepler's formula to G&quot; is just a page from his own website which seems to be misleading anyhow (https://codingthecosmos.com/orbitals/maple-code-Kepler.html). 

See for reference: [[Wikiversity:Community Review/Fringe research]].

Thoughts? —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 20:00, 15 November 2025 (UTC)

:1. where is the original research template, to this I have no objection.
:2. 
:&gt;here are no scientific publications, afaik, that support this hypothesis.
:I invite you to start here
:https://link.springer.com/article/10.1140/epjp/i2018-12094-x
:You may continue here (these article are built around the main article and are works in progress). I recommend in this order.
:doi.org/10.2139/ssrn.3333513
:doi.org/10.2139/ssrn.3334282
:doi.org/10.2139/ssrn.3444571
:doi.org/10.2139/ssrn.3703266
:3. Pls do me the courtesy of notifying me before you delete the sites so that I may copy [[User:Platos Cave (physics)|Platos Cave (physics)]] ([[User talk:Platos Cave (physics)|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Platos Cave (physics)|contribs]]) 00:51, 16 November 2025 (UTC)
::Hi Platos Cave, thank you for your discussion. First off, the original research template is [[template:Original research|here]], though I'm afraid your articles don't align with [[Wikiversity:Original research|our original research policies]]. Secondly, I reviewed the first article and there are a number of issues with it, the most glaring issue [to me] would be this statement in the paper: &quot;The simulation hypothesis posits a mathematical universe that is in some sense programmed, thus implying an Intelligence (the Programmer).&quot;. Again, no scientific literature has postulated a &quot;Programmer God hypothesis&quot;, which is what my main statement about a lack of publications was referring to. When I search up anything related to &quot;the Programmer&quot;, I get sources from your website and not from a peer-reviewed scientific journal. Lastly, a lot of the references in that paper are problematic, including a reference ''for your own paper'' (https://vixra.org/pdf/1102.0032v9.pdf). Criticism for the rest of the articles are as follows:
::#'''A Simulation Hypothesis; Planck unit scaffolding correlates with the Cosmic Microwave Background''' - self-published, not peer reviewed; no claims to support: &quot;The Spiral of Theodorus is used as the ‘rule’ set for measuring the universe expansion&quot;; References are problematic.
::#'''A Simulation Hypothesis, relativity as the mathematics of perspective in a hyper-sphere universe''' - all references are from your own works.
::#'''A Simulation Hypothesis, gravitational orbits emerge from n-body rotating particle-particle orbital pairs''' - same problem as above. In addition, no claims to support: &quot;mass is not a constant property… mass is the frequency of occurrence of Planck mass units.&quot;.
::#'''A Simulation Hypothesis, Emergent Quantization from Geometric Dynamics: The Two-Photon Transition Model''' - references for the &quot;Programmer God&quot; hypothesis are once again self-references to earlier papers that are available only on your own personal website.
::Therefore, it's evident that these pages fall under fringe work and do not adhere to the scientific method. And as for your comment on #3, I am ok with moving these pages into your userspace as whatever goes on in your userspace (as long as it's obviously not defamatory or grossly problematic) is your business, but I believe these pages are unfit for Wikiversity mainspace as it is [[W:pseudoscience|psuedoscience]]. Others are welcomed to join in of course, thanks! —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 01:52, 16 November 2025 (UTC)
:::1. All references are mine so we can both agree that is it original research ... noone else has considered this problem might have a solution ... so it is fringe research under this definition
:::2. Your AI review of the above 4 articles mention that the references are mine (see #1) ... and that some claims are not supported ... unfortunately this defines original research ... perhaps you can query AI for mathematical errors that would render the model without merit (this would clarify whether it is psuedoscience)
:::3. The 4 listed articles are an attempt to build a framework around the peer reviewed article (see European Physics Journal link https://link.springer.com/article/10.1140/epjp/i2018-12094-x). Perhaps your AI tool can review that too. Unfortunately original research sometimes takes time and all articles should eventually form 1 complete model. You can ask AI how successful I am so far from a review of ALL the 5 articles taken together.
:::4. There is the ancestor simulation but to my knowledge no category for the simulation created externally. Hence the title for it is correct by defintion (if the universe was programmed externally then the Programmer is the universe creator).
:::5. As this covers several wiki pages and these articles etc, I need a website to link everything together into a complete form. Using a website to do that is a standard practice as I understand
:::6. If the jury concludes to move me to the user page, then at least that would save the work (and history) from your deletion. [[User:Platos Cave (physics)|Platos Cave (physics)]] ([[User talk:Platos Cave (physics)|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Platos Cave (physics)|contribs]]) 02:36, 16 November 2025 (UTC)
::::Thanks for your response Platos Cave. I'm not sure why you keep referring my &quot;AI tool&quot;. The text that I responded you with was not generated with AI (even though I can understand why you would assume that), and I actually took the time to download each article you linked and it did not take me very long to find the issues that I found. Secondly, your work does not fit Wikiversity's original research guidelines as it does not fit [[Wikiversity:Research ethics]], thus your work may be more suitable for your userspace rather than the mainspace. Lastly, your website has been used as a reference to justify your claims, such as &quot;these MLTA objects may combine with each other Lego style, this can be represented by assigning to each attribute a unit number θ (i.e.: θ = 15 ⇔ kg). This unit number dictates the relationship between the objects&quot; with the reference being your personal website. This does not seem like &quot;linking everything together to a complete form&quot;. 
::::And once again, I don't have an issue with the pages being in your userspace. That's what I'm advocating for. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 02:53, 16 November 2025 (UTC)
:::::Do you mind if I continue this debate as it still seems to me you have judged the work on 1 claim that is non standard physics and now you mention a mathematical reference ... by assigning to each attribute a unit number θ (i.e.: θ = 15 ⇔ kg). This unit number dictates the relationship between the objects, with the reference being your personal website. May I note that these problematic queries were peer reviewed and published by the European Physics Journal ... see link ... you can take up your arguments with them,  ... if you can find any mathematical errors in the other papers then I would be very happy to discuss them with you and make corrections if possible. Constructive criticism is always appreciated. [[User:Platos Cave (physics)|Platos Cave (physics)]] ([[User talk:Platos Cave (physics)|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Platos Cave (physics)|contribs]]) 03:57, 16 November 2025 (UTC)
::::::Platos Cave, I'm not interested in debating your works on whether it meets scientific validity, but if it is in accordance to Wikiversity's policies on [[WV:original research|original research]], and which content can remain on the WV mainspace. My issue is that a lot of the works revolve around a theory that you've created, which isn't supported my mainstream science and the only scientific backings for this theory are your own works &amp; websites. It seems more promotional than educational, hence my desire to move this out of the mainspace. It may even be up for deletion per Dan's point about the Amazon link, I'm afraid. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 14:55, 16 November 2025 (UTC)
: (I plan to take Sunday off for the most part and to post here on Monday. --[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] ([[User talk:Dan Polansky|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dan Polansky|contribs]]) 05:45, 16 November 2025 (UTC))
: Well, since I am quite active today because of other matter: '''Move to userspace''' for all the pages by [[User:Platos Cave (physics)]] as having an unduly tight relation to commercial/financial profit by the author, via prominent links to codingthecosmos.com, a commercial website. It is quite possibly also pseudo-physics or pseudo-philosophy. The simulation hypothesis is examined in serious academic philosophy, e.g. by Nick Bostrom, I think, but that alone does not establish that the material in these pages is scientific or academically sound. If I paid enough attention to the text, I could perhaps confirm the pseudo-scientific character despite my not being a university-trained physicist (I am a university-trained computer scientist, which includes a lot of logic but not physics). But as long as we have the for-financial-profit-pages charge, we can let the pseudo-science/pseudo-philosophy charge rest a little, I think. See also the notes I made here: [[User talk:Platos Cave (physics)#Link to an external web site]], including &quot;There does in fact seem to be commercial value: the Amazon link indicates the Kindle edition sells for 6.99 USD.&quot; The page titles themselves serve to unduly promote (catch Google searches) since they appear rather generic and misleading. For instance, &quot;Simulation hypothesis (Planck)&quot; sounds as if it was an exploration of the simulation hypothesis of the universe by Max Planck, but that is not what it is (similarly for other page titles). Moving to userspace addresses the issue since user space is not indexed by Google, etc.; otherwise, outright deletion would be in order (and moving to user space improves auditability as well as application of something like common law). The affected pages: [[Simulation hypothesis (Planck)]], [[Electron (mathematical)]], [[Planck units (geometrical)]], [[Physical constant (anomaly)]], [[Quantum gravity (Planck)]], [[Fine-structure constant (spiral)]], [[Relativity (Planck)]], [[Black-hole (Planck)]], [[Sqrt Planck momentum]]. As an aside, thank you to Atcovi for bringing this up. --[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] ([[User talk:Dan Polansky|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dan Polansky|contribs]]) 07:37, 16 November 2025 (UTC)
::So the reason for moving to userspace is now because there is a book on Amazon. And if I remove this book? [[User:Platos Cave (physics)|Platos Cave (physics)]] ([[User talk:Platos Cave (physics)|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Platos Cave (physics)|contribs]]) 09:25, 16 November 2025 (UTC)
::: I think after this unacceptable self-promoting behavior, e.g. trying to create an association from &quot;Simulation hypothesis (Planck)&quot; item/headword to one's for-profit item by means of intermediate links, I think we should just move it to user space and not worry about whether some of the issues were addressed. --[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] ([[User talk:Dan Polansky|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dan Polansky|contribs]]) 09:28, 18 November 2025 (UTC)
::::{{ping|Dan Polansky}} I would believe that if there is self-promotion going on with these pages (which is evident), then it should be deleted. Solicitation is not allowed on Wikiversity, even in userspace. See [[Wikiversity:SD]] for a definition: &quot;Solicitation for products, services, companies, events, people or other things with no educational merit or which generate direct financial benefit to the contributor.&quot; Moving pages to userspace should only be done to content that is not fit for the mainspace, but doesn't go above non-educational content (copyvios, self-promotion, discriminatory content, etc.). This clearly does, IMO. What do you think? —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 14:45, 18 November 2025 (UTC)
::::: That is a point worth considering: overt (for-profit) self-promo ==&gt; del. As an initial thought, I will point out that user space is not Google-indexed, so not deleting and userifying instead destroys the promotional motive/incentive while providing excellent auditability for anyone who comes along and wants to request an undeletion. Whether the auditability is worth it in this case I would need to figure out. I would need to figure out the adverse consequences of userfying self-promo like that. A copyvio, for instance, seems to be a much stronger case for deletion than for-profit self-promo. --[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] ([[User talk:Dan Polansky|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dan Polansky|contribs]]) 14:54, 18 November 2025 (UTC)

: '''Move''' to user space. Original theory by single author. Citations are circular/self-referential. Lacks consensus or peer-review. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 08:54, 22 November 2025 (UTC)
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== [[Hilbert Book Model Project]] ==
{{archive top|'''moved to userspace''' pseudoscience that fails Wikiversity's learning objectives (see comments below). —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 20:19, 14 January 2026 (UTC)}}
{{Collapse box|1=Sub-pages|2=
{{Special:Prefixindex/Hilbert Book Model Project}}
}}
Pseudoscience/fringe work that isn't scientifically supported nor supported by [[Wikiversity:original research|Wikiversity's original research guidelines]]. All research regarding this model goes back to the author, who has tried to promote this on [https://www.amazon.com/Hilbert-Book-Model-Hans-Leunen/dp/1470998769 Amazon via his own book]. All the &quot;scientific publications&quot; are only from the author and are on self-publicated websites. Lastly, &quot;The content of this project is not peer reviewed. The reader is responsible for checking the validity of what he/she reads. The peer review process cannot cope with the dynamics of revisions and extensions. Reviewers are always biased, and they are never omniscient. The peer review process is expensive and often poses barriers to renewal of science.&quot; is alarming and goes against Wikiversity's principles of learning. I propose moving this entire project into the original user's userspace. {{ping|HansVanLeunen}} notifying the user of this discussion via this ping, but the author has been inactive on the Wikimedia Projects since 2019. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 16:05, 16 November 2025 (UTC)
: I am inclined to support moving to user space, but I want to have a calmer look later. --[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] ([[User talk:Dan Polansky|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dan Polansky|contribs]]) 09:26, 18 November 2025 (UTC)
:@[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] What's the point of labeling it with a template, saying that it's a POV and that someone contradicts the ideas presented in the research? I've seen such templates somewhere. The problem with the entire argument for deletion here is the unapproved original research policy. However, if you believe that Wikiversity is being abused to promote some hypothesis of the author, then I would be in favor of deleting it. What struck me was that it's translated into several languages ​​and that the translations are on en. It could be an attempt to debate multilingually, but also an attempt to promote it in various languages. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 21:13, 20 November 2025 (UTC)
: '''Move''' to user page as per Atcovi's request. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 09:21, 22 November 2025 (UTC)
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== [[Thick Description and Implicature]] &amp; other similar pages  ==
{{archive top|'''Deleted''' - original user is currently indef'd from Wikiversity due to sockpuppetry and persistent disruptive editing. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 13:17, 4 January 2026 (UTC)}}
Low quality, confusing rambles that have no verifiability nor educational substance behind them. I asked {{ping|KYPark}} personally on his page [https://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/User_talk:KYPark#Disruptive_Page_Creations regarding these pages he's been creating], and has not offered a justification for the pages in accordance to Wikiversity's [[WV:Learning|guidelines on learning]]. Essentially the pages seem to rely on fallacies, erroneous causal claims, and the testimony of an AI bot to justify its existence. The user does not agree with moving them into their userspace and insists they are &quot;highly educational&quot;, so I'm seeking the community's opinion on the matter.

Other pages suffering from similar problems include:
*[[Why and Why Not Basic English]]
*[[The Meaning of Words]]
*[[Lambda World]]
*[[AI English]]
*[[Vital Vocabulary]]

I invite everyone's thoughts on the matter.
—[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 00:46, 17 November 2025 (UTC)
: If we accept my proposal at [[Wikiversity:Colloquium#General ban on direct use of GenAI output with exceptions]], some of these pages would be quasi-deleted (=moved to user space) on being largely GenAI-generated alone, regardless of whether the use of GenAI is properly attributed. To properly assess them as for meaningfulness, I would need to carefully handle them one by one; GenAI does often produces valid results, and identifying the parts that are wrong requires more than a cursory look by a non-expert.
: They also violate another principle: any page that is original research needs to be tagged with {{tl|Original research}}; they are not.
: I propose to block [[user:KYPark]] from creating new pages until we figure out what to do with them. Assuming KayYayPark is the same person as KYPark (KayYayPark confirmed this, but KYPark did not), I was dealing with problems created by this person before and I gave up since I did not have the blocking tools (I made a request at [[WV:Request custodian action]]). --[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] ([[User talk:Dan Polansky|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dan Polansky|contribs]]) 07:34, 17 November 2025 (UTC)
::After reviewing the request at [[WV:Request custodian action]] and seeing that the user is using two accounts to create low-quality, AI-slop, I've gone ahead and blocked the main account, KYPark, for 2 weeks from creating new pages. The disruption stemming from this user has been going on for a while, and this block is needed to figure out what we should do with the remaining pages. As per my conversation with this user on their talk page and evident by their talk page(s), they have been pretty combatant and unwilling to come to an agreement regarding their nonsensical &quot;thesis&quot; (which, once again, has no arguments to back it up except for causation and guesswork). A harsher block will take place if the user switches to their alternative account to continue their disruption.
::If you are willing to give your analysis on each page, Dan, I'd be grateful. Thanks! —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 15:21, 17 November 2025 (UTC)
::: I quote the utterly disingenuous take: 'It's beginning to get very exhausting trying to rid of the disruptive material and other garbage that has been growing on the English Wikiversity, and dealing with a user who still fails to see the problems with their contributions is taking the time away from developing resources. I originally believed Dan could be a positive asset to the community as a regular editor, but its obvious that this pattern of disruption is not going to change. —Atcovi (Talk - Contribs) 01:11, 20 November 2025 (UTC)', from [[Wikiversity:Community Review/Dan Polansky]]. I wonder whether any comment is needed or whether what is going on is self-explanatory. --[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] ([[User talk:Dan Polansky|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dan Polansky|contribs]]) 09:18, 21 November 2025 (UTC)
: Doesn't belong in main space:
:* [[Thick Description and Implicature]] - '''Delete'''. Dump of genAI conversation.
:* [[Why and Why Not Basic English]] - '''Delete'''. Dump of genAI conversation.
:* [[The Meaning of Words]] - '''Move''' to user space. Personal essay.
:* [[Lambda World]] - '''Move''' to user space. Personal notes. No obvious learning objective.
:* [[AI English]] - '''Delete'''. Dump of genAI conversation.
:* [[Vital Vocabulary]] - '''Move''' to user space. Personal notes. No obvious learning objective.
: -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 11:55, 22 November 2025 (UTC)
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== [[Minoan Civilization]] ==
{{archive top|'''moved to draft''' —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 20:21, 14 January 2026 (UTC)}}
Resource that has not been developed since April 2023. The author, [[User:SecretlyHistoric|SecretlyHistoric]], has not been active on the Wikimedia Projects since then. I'm proposing that the page should be moved to the &quot;Draft&quot; namespace. I wasn't sure if I could just '''be bold''' and do it myself, but I guess it doesn't hurt to make sure the community is in line with my reasoning. Thoughts? —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 00:50, 17 November 2025 (UTC)
: '''Move to user space''' (or Draft, as a 2nd best option); the subpages for weeks are basically empty, e.g. [[Minoan Civilization/Protopalatial Period]]. One could perhaps argue that the list of 4 books saves the page, but I find it unconvincing. --[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] ([[User talk:Dan Polansky|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dan Polansky|contribs]]) 09:25, 18 November 2025 (UTC)
::I don't really understand why to move pages to user own userspace. Wikiversity should be a source of educational pages for everyone. Moving pages to the user namespace can lead to everyone starting to natively place pages there, which we don't want and it's not Wikiversity's goal to provide users with a private web space (in the userspace, almost no one usually interferes without being asked). If there is a belief that someone will take care of it, it's worth moving it to draft, if that belief is not there, then delete it. I think that page creators should be notified about RFCs of their pages on their discussion page so that they can be informed that something is happening with their pages and maybe they can show up and say something about it, but that's for another discussion. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 21:01, 20 November 2025 (UTC)
::: You can start a discussion on changing the long-term English Wikiversity tradition of moving pages to user space instead of deleting them in Colloquium. --[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] ([[User talk:Dan Polansky|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dan Polansky|contribs]]) 08:17, 21 November 2025 (UTC)
: '''Move''' to draft namespace. Consists of a course homepage and empty weekly sub-pages. No development of learning resources or recent activity. However, it has a structure that could be built on. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 11:40, 22 November 2025 (UTC)
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== [[Pi-Conjugated Materials]] ==
{{archive top|'''deleted''' —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 23:30, 14 January 2026 (UTC)}}
Undeveloped resource that has not been improved on since creation. Original author, [[User:Jgutierrez]], has not been active on the project since 2009. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 03:24, 30 November 2025 (UTC)
: '''Delete''' per nom -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 03:32, 1 December 2025 (UTC)
: '''Move to user space''' or, as a second best option, '''delete''' per nomination above. --[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] ([[User talk:Dan Polansky|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dan Polansky|contribs]]) 09:20, 12 December 2025 (UTC)
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== [[User:Dan Polansky/Problem reports (about Wikiversity problems)]] ==
{{archive top|'''Deleted''' - clearly disruptive material with no benefit from a user with a long history of belligerent behavior. Material like this should be kept off-wiki. Similar to another page that was deleted, [[User:Dan Polansky/User Juandev]]. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 13:36, 18 December 2025 (UTC)}}
User Harold Foppele has nominated the page for speedy deletion on 6 December 2025, in [[Special:Diff/2778468]], the reason being &quot;pillorying&quot;. I have now turned this into a RfD so that editors (including myself) can determine what should be done with the page.

I propose to keep the page and remove any items that are determined to be unacceptable. I created the page to track problems and relieve my memory after my requests in [[WV:RCA]] were being ignored.

The page is in user space and therefore not indexed by Google. And thus, the exposure to public view is rather minimal; one can at best see changes to the page in ''Recent changes'' when changes are being made. By contrast, my posts at [[WV:RCA]] are high-visibility posts and become part of written record and history in Wikiversity namespace.

Multiple items listed on that page are now closed; thank you to the custodians who helped.

User Harold Foppele may specifically object to items about himself on the page he wants deleted. As regards his person, it is now two physicists from Wikipedia who support an action against him to protect the English Wikiversity: [[Wikiversity:Request custodian action#Request page creation block for Harold Foppele]], created on 6 December 2025. While one of the physicists has withdrawn the request, apparently after becoming frustrated with Wikiversity junkification of the mainspace, the request is valid on substance, by my assessment. --[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] ([[User talk:Dan Polansky|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dan Polansky|contribs]]) 17:05, 16 December 2025 (UTC)

As for ''pillorying'', I am not clear to what policy or principle it would refer. Surely unfair attacks on my person e.g. in [[Wikiversity:Colloquium#Concern regarding curator conduct User:Dan Polansky]] and [[Wikiversity:Community Review/Dan Polansky]] would also constitute ''pillorying''? And while the problem tracking page in my user space can be deleted later once the problems are addressed, these unfair attacks on me will remain as part of the historical record in Wikiversity namespace? I do not think this is a useful concept. --[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] ([[User talk:Dan Polansky|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dan Polansky|contribs]]) 15:07, 17 December 2025 (UTC)

:The discussion should take place at [[User talk:Dan Polansky/Problem reports (about Wikiversity problems)]] as clearly stated in the delete tag. 
:This user page may qualify for [[Wikiversity:Deletions|speedy deletion]] because: pillorying illegal reverted edit
:If you disagree or intend to fix it, and '''you have not contributed to it before''', you may remove this notice. If you have contributed before and disagree, please explain why on [[User talk:Dan Polansky/Problem reports (about Wikiversity problems)|the discussion page]], after adding {{&lt;/nowiki&gt;[[Template:Hangon|hangon]]&lt;nowiki&gt;}} to the top of the page. This will alert [[Wikiversity:Support staff|curators and custodians]] to your intention, and may permit you the time to write your explanation.&lt;br&gt;
:[[User:Harold Foppele|Harold Foppele]] ([[User talk:Harold Foppele|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Harold Foppele|contribs]]) 16:33, 17 December 2025 (UTC)
:: I went through [[Wikiversity:Deletions#Speedy]] and did not find any item that would suggest that ''speedy applies''.
:: [[Wikiversity:Request custodian action#Indefinite block for Harold Foppele]] contains enough substantiation and support to, by my assessment, justify an indefinite block of Harold Foppele, to stop this embarassment of the English Wikiversity administration. More substantiation is at [[Wikiversity:Request custodian action#Request page creation block for Harold Foppele]]. Two physicists indicated his content is very bad; my assessment that his content is very bad can be dismissed. --[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] ([[User talk:Dan Polansky|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dan Polansky|contribs]]) 16:40, 17 December 2025 (UTC)
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== [[Spanish/Spanish One/SO-Lesson 1]] ==
{{archive top|'''Deleted''' - per community agreement. --[[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 09:07, 11 March 2026 (UTC))}}
I would delete just this page as it is not completed, the tutor is not active, and it probably doesn't bring any good. The linked on-wv resources can be used elsewhere by other en.wv courses. --[[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 20:17, 20 November 2025 (UTC)
: '''Delete''' per nominator who is also the original creator. More complete Spanish lessons are available on en.wv. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 12:12, 22 November 2025 (UTC)
: '''Delete''' per the above wish of the page creator, Juandev. The page  was created on 1 January 2008. Near the beginning, it says &quot;In this introductory lesson participants will download a version of the textbook and also install skype in order to communicate with an instructor.&quot; Thus, the participants would have communicated with Juandev, I suppose, using Skype; this will no longer happen as per Juandev's own statement above. The page does not seem to have much that would have to be saved; someone could perhaps want to use some of the links, http://wordreference.com/, http://dictionaries.reverso.net/ and http://www.altavista.babelfish.com/ (which I list here for anyone's convenience). --[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] ([[User talk:Dan Polansky|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dan Polansky|contribs]]) 09:42, 12 December 2025 (UTC)
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== [[:Category:Spanish:An Introduction]] ==
{{archive top|'''Deleted''' - per community consensus.--[[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 09:39, 11 March 2026 (UTC)}}
I started the course [[Spanish: An Introduction]] a while ago and never completed it. I will not be able to resume it any time soon; it hasn't been resumed by someone else for a very long time, and we do have two complete Spanish courses ([[Spanish 1]] and [[Spanish 2]]). So I don't see the point in keeping this torso. The course includes the following pages:
*[[Spanish: An Introduction]]
*[[Spanish: An Introduction/About Spanish]]
*[[Spanish: An Introduction/Pronunciation]]
*[[Spanish: An Introduction/Pronunciation/Conquista de América]]
*[[Spanish: An Introduction/Pronunciation/Las Palmas de Gran Canaria]]
*[[Spanish: An Introduction/Teaching tools]]
*[[User:Juandev/Teacher availability]]

With related discussion pages. --[[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 20:38, 20 November 2025 (UTC)

: '''Delete''' per nominator who is also the original creator. There is some potentially useful material that could be integrated into existing lessons, but more complete Spanish lessons are available on en.wv, so it would be tidier/easier if this incomplete course was removed. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 12:16, 22 November 2025 (UTC)
: '''Delete''' since the learning outcomes from these pages are scarce ([[WV:Deletions]]). Why not move to user space: this could be done, but since the author Juandev prefers deletion, deletion is perhaps preferable in this case. --[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] ([[User talk:Dan Polansky|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dan Polansky|contribs]]) 09:35, 12 December 2025 (UTC)

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== [[:Category:Pomology]] ==
{{archive top|'''Deleted''' per consensus. --[[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 10:37, 12 March 2026 (UTC)}}
I propose deleting this category, which contains only the course I also propose deleting. The course was never completed; it has been unfinished for a long time, and no one else appears willing to complete it. I will not have time in the near future to work on it. List of affected pages:
*[[Pomology]]
*[[Pomology/Teaching tools]]
*[[Banana production]]
*[[Pineapple production]]
*[[Pomology/Fruit and its importance]]
*[[Pomology/Tropical and subtropical pomology I]]
*[[Pomology/Tropical and subtropical pomology II]]

--[[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 22:09, 20 November 2025 (UTC)
: In a case like this, deletions are better done on a per subpages structure basis than on a per category basis. And Dave recommended using {{tl|proposed deletion}} when opposition is not expected, and RFD as a last resort. But I do not mind a RFD.
: 1) '''Move to user space''' or '''delete''' the page [[Pomology]] and its subpages: too underdeveloped, too little to learn from here.
: 2) As for [[Banana production]], '''move to user space''' or '''delete''': too little to learn from here. Created by [[User:Juandev]] in 2006.
: 3) As for [[Pineapple production]], '''move to user space''' or '''delete''' as per request of the page creator, [[User:Juandev]] (created in 2006). --[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] ([[User talk:Dan Polansky|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dan Polansky|contribs]]) 09:11, 21 November 2025 (UTC)
::I'm sorry, but what kind of proposal is this to move a page created by multiple users to a single user's namespace. How do you choose which one? If it were me, how can I reverse this action? Last time, when I tried to reverse it, you reverted me. Can I then propose the page to be deleted from my userspaec again? Will you then propose moving it again, perhaps to another userspace or something? In my opinion, this procedure is very bad and does not have wider support. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 20:58, 23 November 2025 (UTC)
::: For instance, from https://en.wikiversity.org/w/index.php?title=Banana_production&amp;action=history, the page has pretty much a single content inserter, the creator: &quot;13 December 2006 Juandev discuss contribs 2,010 bytes&quot;. It is therefore quite meaningful to move this to userspace. However, I don't object to deletion, especially since this is the wish of the creator Juandev, as per above. --[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] ([[User talk:Dan Polansky|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dan Polansky|contribs]]) 09:26, 12 December 2025 (UTC)
: '''Delete''' category and project pages per nominator who is also the original creator. Incomplete course with no activity for a long time. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 12:22, 22 November 2025 (UTC)
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== [[Information system modelling]] ==
{{archive top|'''Deleted''' per consensus. --[[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 08:36, 15 March 2026 (UTC)}}
Not much sustenance. 
*[[Information system modelling/Lesson 1:Activity diagrams]] barely has anything useful above the introduction sentence.
*[[Information system modelling/Introductory lesson]] seems to be a stub.
The course has not been developed further since 2008, and the author, [[User:Grovermj|Grovermj]], has been inactive on the project since 2008. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 01:33, 2 December 2025 (UTC)
—[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 01:33, 2 December 2025 (UTC)
: '''Delete''' per nom -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 03:17, 2 December 2025 (UTC)
: '''Move to user space''' or, as a 2nd best option, '''delete''' per nom: too underdeveloped to be any use. Guideline: [[WV:Deletions]], &quot; learning outcomes are scarce&quot;. --[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] ([[User talk:Dan Polansky|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dan Polansky|contribs]]) 09:22, 12 December 2025 (UTC)
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== [[Graham School of Science and Mathematics]] ==
{{archive top|'''Deleted''' per consensus. --[[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 08:39, 15 March 2026 (UTC)}}
Seems to read more like a Wikipedia page than a Wikiversity page. I don't see any parts of this page that encourages active learning. The author, [[User:Wnateg|Wnateg]], created the page in 2014 and has not returned to the project since then. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 15:43, 2 December 2025 (UTC)

:'''Delete''' per nom -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 01:49, 3 December 2025 (UTC)
: '''Move to user space''' or, as a 2nd best option, '''delete''' per nom: almost nothing to learn from here. Guideline: [[WV:Deletions]], &quot;learning outcomes are scarce&quot;. --[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] ([[User talk:Dan Polansky|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dan Polansky|contribs]]) 09:23, 12 December 2025 (UTC)
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== [[Portal:Danish]] ==
{{archive top|'''Deleted''' per consensus.--[[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 09:32, 15 March 2026 (UTC)}}
Extremely underdeveloped. No improvements made since 2013. The author, [[User:Cuchifrito1216|Cuchifrito1216]], created the page in 2013 and has been inactive on the project since then. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 16:11, 2 December 2025 (UTC)

:'''Delete''' per nom -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 01:50, 3 December 2025 (UTC)
: '''Move to user space''' or, as a second best option, '''delete''' per nomination above. --[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] ([[User talk:Dan Polansky|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dan Polansky|contribs]]) 09:18, 12 December 2025 (UTC)


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      <sha1>9rfdtmfqa6swbcaxicxhtpod7mt9znr</sha1>
    </revision>
  </page>
  <page>
    <title>16-cell</title>
    <ns>0</ns>
    <id>305363</id>
    <revision>
      <id>2808104</id>
      <parentid>2802306</parentid>
      <timestamp>2026-05-09T22:49:28Z</timestamp>
      <contributor>
        <username>Dc.samizdat</username>
        <id>2856930</id>
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      <comment>/* Helical construction */</comment>
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      <text bytes="58816" sha1="5ypnmy18alp9zl90xam3oh9svn7vnyh" xml:space="preserve">{{Short description|Four-dimensional analog of the octahedron}}
{{Polyscheme|radius=an '''expanded version''' of}}
{{Infobox 4-polytope |
  Name=16-cell&lt;br /&gt;(4-orthoplex)|
  Image_File=Schlegel wireframe 16-cell.png|
  Image_Caption=[[W:Schlegel diagram|Schlegel diagram]]&lt;br /&gt;(vertices and edges)|
  Type=[[W:Convex regular 4-polytope|Convex regular 4-polytope]]&lt;br /&gt;4-[[W:Orthoplex|orthoplex]]&lt;br /&gt;4-[[W:Demihypercube|demicube]]|
  Last=[[W:Rectified tesseract|11]]|
  Index=12|
  Next=[[W:Truncated tesseract|13]]|
  Schläfli={3,3,4}|
  CD={{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_1|3|node|3|node|4|node}} |
  Cell_List=16 [[W:Tetrahedron|{3,3}]] [[File:3-simplex t0.svg|25px]]|
  Face_List=32 [[W:Triangle|{3}]] [[File:2-simplex t0.svg|25px]]|
  Edge_Count= 24|
  Vertex_Count= 8|
  Petrie_Polygon=[[W:Octagon|octagon]]|
  Coxeter_Group=B&lt;sub&gt;4&lt;/sub&gt;, [3,3,4], order 384&lt;br /&gt;D&lt;sub&gt;4&lt;/sub&gt;, order 192|
  Vertex_Figure=[[File:16-cell verf.svg|80px]]&lt;br /&gt;[[W:Octahedron|Octahedron]]|
  Dual=[[W:Tesseract|Tesseract]]|
  Property_List=[[W:Convex polytope|convex]], [[W:Isogonal figure|isogonal]], [[W:Isotoxal figure|isotoxal]], [[W:Isohedral figure|isohedral]], [[W:Regular polytope|regular]], [[W:Hanner polytope|Hanner polytope]]
}}
In [[W:Geometry|geometry]], the '''16-cell''' is the [[W:Regular convex 4-polytope|regular convex 4-polytope]] (four-dimensional analogue of a Platonic solid) with [[W:Schläfli symbol|Schläfli symbol]] {3,3,4}. It is one of the six regular convex 4-polytopes first described by the Swiss mathematician [[W:Ludwig Schläfli|Ludwig Schläfli]] in the mid-19th century.{{Sfn|Coxeter|1973|p=141|loc=§&amp;nbsp;7-x. Historical remarks}} It is also called '''C&lt;sub&gt;16&lt;/sub&gt;''', '''hexadecachoron''',&lt;ref&gt;[[W:Norman Johnson (mathematician)|N.W. Johnson]]: ''Geometries and Transformations'', (2018) {{ISBN|978-1-107-10340-5}} Chapter 11: ''Finite Symmetry Groups'', 11.5 ''Spherical Coxeter groups'', p.249&lt;/ref&gt; or '''hexdecahedroid'''.&lt;ref&gt;Matila Ghyka, ''The Geometry of Art and Life'' (1977), p.68&lt;/ref&gt;

It is the 4-dimesional member of an infinite family of polytopes called [[W:Cross-polytope|cross-polytope]]s, ''orthoplexes'', or ''hyperoctahedrons'' which are analogous to the [[W:Cctahedron|octahedron]] in three dimensions. It is Coxeter's &lt;math&gt;\beta_4&lt;/math&gt; polytope.{{Sfn|Coxeter|1973|pp=120=121|loc=§&amp;nbsp;7.2. See illustration Fig 7.2&lt;small&gt;B&lt;/small&gt;}} The [[W:Dual polytope|dual polytope]] is the [[W:Tesseract|tesseract]] (4-[[W:Hypercube|cube]]), which it can be combined with to form [[W:Compound of tesseract and 16-cell|a compound figure]]. The cells of the 16-cell are dual to the 16 vertices of the tesseract.

== Geometry ==
The 16-cell is the second in the sequence of 6 convex regular 4-polytopes (in order of size and complexity).{{Efn|name=polytopes ordered by size and complexity|group=}}

Each of its 4 successor convex regular 4-polytopes can be constructed as the [[W:Convex hull|convex hull]] of a [[W:Polytope compound|polytope compound]] of multiple 16-cells: the 16-vertex [[W:Tesseract|tesseract]] as a compound of two 16-cells, the 24-vertex [[24-cell]] as a compound of three 16-cells, the 120-vertex [[600-cell]] as a compound of fifteen 16-cells, and the 600-vertex [[120-cell]] as a compound of seventy-five 16-cells.{{Efn|There are 2 and only 2 16-cells inscribed in the 8-cell (tesseract), 3 and only 3 16-cells inscribed in the 24-cell, 75 distinct 16-cells (but only 15 disjoint 16-cells) inscribed in the 600-cell, and 675 distinct 16-cells (but only 75 disjoint 16-cells) inscribed in the 120-cell.}}

{{Regular convex 4-polytopes|wiki=W:}}

=== Coordinates ===
{| class=&quot;wikitable floatright&quot;
!colspan=2|Disjoint squares
|-
|
{| class=&quot;wikitable&quot; style=&quot;white-space:nowrap;&quot;
!colspan=2|''xy'' plane
|-
|( 0, 1, 0, 0)||( 0, 0,-1, 0)
|-
|( 0, 0, 1, 0)||( 0,-1, 0, 0)
|}
|-
|
{| class=&quot;wikitable&quot; style=&quot;white-space:nowrap;&quot;
!colspan=2|''wz'' plane
|-
|( 1, 0, 0, 0)||( 0, 0, 0,-1)
|-
|( 0, 0, 0, 1)||(-1, 0, 0, 0)
|}
|}The 16-cell is the 4-dimensional [[W:Cross polytope|cross polytope (4-orthoplex)]], which means its vertices lie in opposite pairs on the 4 axes of a (w, x, y, z) Cartesian coordinate system.

The eight vertices are (±1, 0, 0, 0), (0, ±1, 0, 0), (0, 0, ±1, 0), (0, 0, 0, ±1). All vertices are connected by edges except opposite pairs. The edge length is {{radic|2}}.

The vertex coordinates form 6 [[W:Orthogonal|orthogonal]] central squares lying in the 6 coordinate planes. Squares in ''opposite'' planes that do not share an axis (e.g. in the ''xy'' and ''wz'' planes) are completely disjoint (they do not intersect at any vertices). These planes are [[W:Completely orthogonal|completely orthogonal]].{{Efn|name=Six orthogonal planes of the Cartesian basis}}

The 16-cell constitutes an [[W:Orthonormal basis|orthonormal ''basis'']] for the choice of a 4-dimensional reference frame, because its vertices exactly define the four orthogonal axes.

=== Structure ===
The [[W:Schläfli symbol|Schläfli symbol]] of the 16-cell is {3,3,4}, indicating that its cells are [[W:Regular tetrahedron|regular tetrahedra]] {3,3} and its [[W:Vertex figure|vertex figure]] is a [[W:Regular octahedron|regular octahedron]] {3,4}. There are 8 tetrahedra, 12 triangles, and 6 edges meeting at every vertex. Its [[W:Edge figure|edge figure]] is a square. There are 4 tetrahedra and 4 triangles meeting at every edge.

The 16-cell is [[W:Totally bounded|bounded]] by 16 [[W:Cell (mathematics)|cells]], all of which are regular [[W:Tetrahedron|tetrahedra]].{{Efn|The boundary surface of a 16-cell is a finite 3-dimensional space consisting of 16 tetrahedra arranged face-to-face (four around one). It is a closed, tightly curved (non-Euclidean) 3-space, within which we can move straight through 4 tetrahedra in any direction and arrive back in the tetrahedron where we started. We can visualize moving around inside this tetrahedral [[W:Jungle gym|jungle gym]], climbing from one tetrahedron into another on its 24 struts (its edges), and never being able to get out (or see out) of the 16 tetrahedra no matter what direction we go (or look). We are always on (or in) the ''surface'' of the 16-cell, never inside the 16-cell itself (nor outside it). We can see that the 6 edges around each vertex radiate symmetrically in 3 dimensions and form an orthogonal 3-axis cross, just as the radii of an octahedron do (so we say the vertex figure of the 16-cell is the octahedron).{{Efn|name=octahedral pyramid}}}} It has 32 [[W:Triangle (geometry)|triangular]] [[W:Face (geometry)|faces]], 24 [[W:Edge (geometry)|edges]], and 8 [[W:Vertex (geometry)|vertices]]. The 24 edges bound 6 [[W:Orthogonal|orthogonal]] central squares lying on [[W:Great circle|great circles]] in the 6 coordinate planes (3 pairs of completely orthogonal great squares). At each vertex, 3 great squares cross perpendicularly. The 6 edges meet at the vertex the way 6 edges meet at the [[W:Apex (geometry)|apex]] of a canonical [[W:Octahedral pyramid|octahedral pyramid]].{{Efn|Each vertex in the 16-cell is the apex of an [[W:Octahedral pyramid|octahedral pyramid]], the base of which is the octahedron formed by the 6 other vertices to which the apex is connected by edges. The 16-cell can be deconstructed (four different ways) into two octahedral pyramids by cutting it in half through one of its four octahedral central hyperplanes. Looked at from inside the curved 3 dimensional volume of its boundary surface of 16 face-bonded tetrahedra, the 16-cell's vertex figure is an octahedron. In 4 dimensions, the vertex octahedron is actually an octahedral pyramid. The apex of the octahedral pyramid (the vertex where the 6 edges meet) is not actually at the center of the octahedron: it is displaced radially outwards in the fourth dimension, out of the hyperplane defined by the octahedron's 6 vertices. The 6 edges around the vertex make an orthogonal 3-axis cross in 3 dimensions (and in the [[W:Octahedral pyramid|3-dimensional projection of the 4-pyramid]]), but the 3 lines are actually bent 90 degrees in the fourth dimension where they meet in an apex.|name=octahedral pyramid}} The 6 orthogonal central planes of the 16-cell can be divided into 4 orthogonal central hyperplanes (3-spaces) each forming an [[W:Octahedron|octahedron]] with 3 orthogonal great squares.

=== Rotations ===
{| class=&quot;wikitable&quot; width=480
|- align=center valign=top
|rowspan=2|[[File:16-cell.gif]]&lt;br /&gt;A 3D projection of a 16-cell performing a [[W:SO(4)#Simple rotations|simple rotation]]
|[[File:16-cell-orig.gif]]&lt;br /&gt;A 3D projection of a 16-cell performing a [[W:SO(4)#Double rotations|double rotation]]
|}
[[W:Rotations in 4-dimensional Euclidean space|Rotations in 4-dimensional Euclidean space]] can be seen as the composition of two 2-dimensional rotations in [[w:Completely_orthogonal|completely orthogonal]] planes.{{Sfn|Kim|Rote|2016|p=6|loc=§&amp;nbsp;5. Four-Dimensional Rotations}} The 16-cell is a simple frame in which to observe 4-dimensional rotations, because each of the 16-cell's 6 great squares has another completely orthogonal great square (there are 3 pairs of completely orthogonal squares).{{Efn|name=Six orthogonal planes of the Cartesian basis}} Many rotations of the 16-cell can be characterized by the angle of rotation in one of its great square planes (e.g. the ''xy'' plane) and another angle of rotation in the completely orthogonal great square plane (the ''wz'' plane).{{Efn|Each great square vertex is {{radic|2}} distant from two of the square's other vertices, and {{radic|4}} distant from its opposite vertex. The other four vertices of the 16-cell (also {{radic|2}} distant) are the vertices of the square's completely orthogonal square.{{Efn|name=Clifford parallel great squares}} Each 16-cell vertex is a vertex of ''three'' orthogonal great squares which intersect there. Each great square has a different ''completely'' orthogonal great square. Thus there are three great squares completely orthogonal to each vertex: squares that the vertex is not part of.{{Efn|The three ''incompletely'' orthogonal great squares which intersect at each vertex of the 16-cell form the vertex's octahedral [[W:Vertex figure|vertex figure]].{{Efn|name=octahedral pyramid}} Any two of them, together with the completely orthogonal square of the third, also form an octahedron: a central octahedral hyperplane.{{Efn|Three great squares meet at each vertex (and at its opposite vertex) in the 16-cell. Each of them has a different completely orthogonal square. Thus there are three great squares completely orthogonal to each vertex and its opposite vertex (each axis). They form an octahedron (a central hyperplane). Every axis line in the 16-cell is completely orthogonal to a central octahedron hyperplane, as every great square plane is completely orthogonal to another great square plane.{{Efn|name=Six orthogonal planes of the Cartesian basis}} The axis and the octahedron intersect only at one point (the center of the 16-cell), as each pair of completely orthogonal great squares intersects only at one point (the center of the 16-cell). Each central octahedron is also the octahedral vertex figure of two of the eight vertices: the two on its completely orthogonal axis.|name=octahedral hyperplanes}} In the 16-cell, each octahedral vertex figure is also a central octahedral hyperplane.|name=completely orthogonal great squares}}|name=vertex and central octahedra}} Completely orthogonal great squares have disjoint vertices: 4 of the 16-cell's 8 vertices rotate in one plane, and the other 4 rotate independently in the completely orthogonal plane.{{Efn|Completely orthogonal great squares are non-intersecting and rotate independently because the great circles on which their vertices lie are [[W:Clifford parallel|Clifford parallel]].{{Efn|[[W:Clifford parallel|Clifford parallel]]s are non-intersecting curved lines that are parallel in the sense that the perpendicular (shortest) distance between them is the same at each point.{{Sfn|Tyrrell &amp; Semple|1971|loc=§&amp;nbsp;3. Clifford's original definition of parallelism|pp=5-6}} A double helix is an example of Clifford parallelism in ordinary 3-dimensional Euclidean space. In 4-space Clifford parallels occur as geodesic great circles on the [[W:3-sphere|3-sphere]].{{Sfn|Kim|Rote|2016|pp=7-10|loc=§&amp;nbsp;6. Angles between two Planes in 4-Space}} In the 16-cell the corresponding vertices of completely orthogonal great circle squares are all {{radic|2}} apart, so these squares are Clifford parallel polygons.{{Efn|name=completely orthogonal Clifford parallels are special}} Note that only the vertices of the great squares (the points on the great circle) are {{radic|2}} apart; points on the edges of the squares (on chords of the circle) are closer together.|name=Clifford parallels}} They are {{radic|2}} apart at each pair of nearest vertices (and in the 16-cell ''all'' the pairs except antipodal pairs are nearest). The two squares cannot intersect at all because they lie in planes which intersect at only one point: the center of the 16-cell.{{Efn|name=Six orthogonal planes of the Cartesian basis}} Because they are perpendicular and share a common center, the two squares are obviously not parallel and separate in the usual way of parallel squares in 3 dimensions; rather they are connected like adjacent square links in a chain, each passing through the other without intersecting at any points, forming a [[W:Hopf link|Hopf link]].|name=Clifford parallel great squares}}

In 2 or 3 dimensions a rotation is characterized by a single plane of rotation; this kind of rotation taking place in 4-space is called a [[W:Rotations in 4-dimensional Euclidean space#Simple rotations|simple rotation]], in which only one of the two completely orthogonal planes rotates (the angle of rotation in the other plane is 0). In the 16-cell, a simple rotation in one of the 6 orthogonal planes moves only 4 of the 8 vertices; the other 4 remain fixed. (In the simple rotation animation above, all 8 vertices move because the plane of rotation is not one of the 6 orthogonal basis planes.)

In a [[W:Rotations in 4-dimensional Euclidean space#Double rotations|double rotation]] both sets of 4 vertices move, but independently: the angles of rotation may be different in the 2 completely orthogonal planes. If the two angles happen to be the same, a maximally symmetric [[W:Rotations in 4-dimensional Euclidean space#Isoclinic rotations|isoclinic rotation]] takes place.{{Efn|In an isoclinic rotation, all 6 orthogonal planes are displaced in two orthogonal directions at once: they are rotated by the angle, and at the same time they are tilted ''sideways'' by that same angle. An isoclinic displacement (also known as a [[W:William Kingdon Clifford|Clifford]] displacement) is 4-dimensionally diagonal. Points are displaced an equal distance in four orthogonal directions at once, and displaced a total [[W:Pythagorean distance#Higher dimensions|Pythagorean distance]] equal to the square root of four times the square of that distance (which is two times that distance). All vertices of a regular 4-polytope are displaced to a vertex at least two edge lengths away. For example, when the unit-radius 16-cell rotates isoclinically 90° in a great square invariant plane, it also rotates 90° in the completely orthogonal great square invariant plane.{{Efn||name=Six orthogonal planes of the Cartesian basis}} The great square plane tilts sideways 90° to occupy its completely orthogonal plane. (By isoclinic symmetry, ''every'' great square plane rotates 90° ''and'' tilts sideways 90° into its completely orthogonal plane.) Each vertex (in every great square) is displaced to its antipodal vertex, at a distance of {{radic|1}} in each of four orthogonal directions, a total distance of {{radic|4}}. The original and displaced vertex are two edge lengths apart by three{{Efn|There are six different two-edge paths connecting a pair of antipodal vertices along the edges of a great square. The left isoclinic rotation runs diagonally between three of them, and the right isoclinic rotation runs diagonally between the other three. These diagonals are the straight lines (geodesics) connecting opposite vertices of face-bonded tetrahedral cells in the left-handed [[#Helical construction|eight-cell ring]] and the right-handed eight-cell ring, respectively.}} different paths along two edges of a great square. But the ''isocline'' (the helical arc the vertex follows during the isoclinic rotation) does not run along edges: it runs ''between'' these different edge-paths diagonally, on a geodesic (shortest arc) between the original and displaced vertices.{{Efn|name=isocline}} This isoclinic geodesic arc is not a segment of an ordinary great circle; it does not lie in the plane of any great square. It is a helical 180° arc that bends in a circle in two completely orthogonal planes at once. This [[W:Möbius loop|Möbius circle]] does not lie in any one great circle plane, or intersect any vertices of the 16-cell between the original and the displaced vertex.{{Efn|name=Möbius circle}}|name=isoclinic rotation}} In the 16-cell an isoclinic rotation by 90 degrees of any pair of completely orthogonal square planes takes every square plane to its completely orthogonal square plane.{{Efn|The 90 degree isoclinic rotation of two completely orthogonal planes takes them to each other. In such a rotation of a rigid 16-cell, all 6 orthogonal planes rotate by 90 degrees, and also tilt sideways by 90 degrees to their completely orthogonal (Clifford parallel){{Efn|name=Clifford parallels}} plane.{{Sfn|Kim|Rote|2016|pp=8-10|loc=Relations to Clifford Parallelism}} The corresponding vertices of the two completely orthogonal great squares are {{radic|4}} (180°) apart; the great squares (Clifford parallel polytopes) are {{radic|4}} (180°) apart; but the two completely orthogonal ''planes'' are 90° apart, in the ''two'' orthogonal angles that separate them. If the isoclinic rotation is continued through another 90°, each vertex completes a 360° rotation and each great square returns to its original plane, but in a different orientation (axes swapped): it has been turned &quot;upside down&quot; on the surface of the 16-cell (which is now &quot;inside out&quot;). Continuing through a second 360° isoclinic rotation (through four 90° by 90° isoclinic steps, a 720° rotation) returns everything to its original place and orientation.|name=exchange of completely orthogonal planes}}

=== Constructions ===

==== Octahedral dipyramid ====
{|class=&quot;wikitable floatright&quot;
!Octahedron &lt;math&gt;\beta_3&lt;/math&gt;
!16-cell &lt;math&gt;\beta_4&lt;/math&gt;
|-
|[[File:3-cube t2.svg|160px]]
|[[File:4-demicube t0 D4.svg|160px]]
|-
|colspan=2|Orthogonal projections to skew hexagon hyperplane
|}
The simplest construction of the 16-cell is on the 3-dimensional cross polytope, the [[W:Octahedron|octahedron]]. The octahedron has 3 perpendicular axes and 6 vertices in 3 opposite pairs (its [[W:Petrie polygon|Petrie polygon]] is the [[W:Hexagon|hexagon]]). Add another pair of vertices, on a fourth axis perpendicular to all 3 of the other axes. Connect each new vertex to all 6 of the original vertices, adding 12 new edges. This raises two [[W:Octahedral pyramid|octahedral pyramid]]s on a shared octahedron base that lies in the 16-cell's central hyperplane.{{Sfn|Coxeter|1973|p=121|loc=§&amp;nbsp;7.21. See illustration Fig 7.2&lt;small&gt;B&lt;/small&gt;|ps=: &quot;&lt;math&gt;\beta_4&lt;/math&gt; is a four-dimensional dipyramid based on &lt;math&gt;\beta_3&lt;/math&gt; (with its two apices in opposite directions along the fourth dimension).&quot;}}

[[File:stereographic_polytope_16cell_colour.png|thumb|[[W:Stereographic projection|Stereographic projection]] of the 16-cell's 6 orthogonal central squares onto their great circles. Each circle is divided into 4 arc-edges at the intersections where 3 circles cross perpendicularly. Notice that each circle has one Clifford parallel circle that it does ''not'' intersect. Those two circles pass through each other like adjacent links in a chain.]]The octahedron that the construction starts with has three perpendicular intersecting squares (which appear as rectangles in the hexagonal projections). Each square intersects with each of the other squares at two opposite vertices, with ''two'' of the squares crossing at each vertex. Then two more points are added in the fourth dimension (above and below the 3-dimensional hyperplane). These new vertices are connected to all the octahedron's vertices, creating 12 new edges and ''three more squares'' (which appear edge-on as the 3 ''diameters'' of the hexagon in the projection), and three more octahedra.{{Efn|name=octahedral hyperplanes}}

Something unprecedented has also been created. Notice that each square no longer intersects with ''all'' of the other squares: it does intersect with four of them (with ''three'' of the squares crossing at each vertex now), but each square has ''one'' other square with which it shares ''no'' vertices: it is not directly connected to that square at all. These two ''separate'' perpendicular squares (there are three pairs of them) are like the opposite edges of a [[W:Tetrahedron|tetrahedron]]: perpendicular, but non-intersecting. They lie opposite each other (parallel in some sense), and they don't touch, but they also pass through each other like two perpendicular links in a chain (but unlike links in a chain they have a common center). They are an example of '''''Clifford parallels''''', and the 16-cell is the simplest regular polytope in which they occur. [[W:William Kingdon Clifford|Clifford]] parallelism{{Efn|name=Clifford parallels}} of objects of more than one dimension (more than just curved ''lines'') emerges here and occurs in all the subsequent 4-dimensional regular polytopes, where it can be seen as the defining relationship ''among'' disjoint concentric regular 4-polytopes and their corresponding parts. It can occur between congruent (similar) polytopes of 2 or more dimensions.{{Sfn|Tyrrell &amp; Semple|1971}} For example, as noted [[#Geometry|above]] all the subsequent convex regular 4-polytopes are compounds of multiple 16-cells; those 16-cells are [[24-cell#Clifford parallel polytopes|Clifford parallel polytopes]].

==== Tetrahedral constructions ====
{| class=&quot;wikitable&quot; width=480
|- align=center valign=top
|[[File:16-cell net.png|180px|]]
|[[File:16-cell nets.png|180px]]
|}

The 16-cell has two [[W:Wythoff construction|Wythoff construction]]s from regular tetrahedra, a regular form and alternated form, shown here as [[W:Net (polyhedron)|nets]], the second represented by tetrahedral cells of two alternating colors. The alternated form is a [[#Symmetry constructions|lower symmetry construction]] of the 16-cell called the [[W:Demitesseract|demitesseract]].

Wythoff's construction replicates the 16-cell's [[5-cell#Orthoschemes|characteristic 5-cell]] in a [[W:Kaleidoscope|kaleidoscope]] of mirrors. Every regular 4-polytope has its characteristic 4-orthoscheme, an [[5-cell#Irregular 5-cells|irregular 5-cell]].{{Efn|An [[W:Orthoscheme|orthoscheme]] is a [[W:Chiral|chiral]] irregular [[W:simplex|simplex]] with [[W:Right triangle|right triangle]] faces that is characteristic of some polytope if it will exactly fill that polytope with the reflections of itself in its own [[W:Facet (geometry)|facets]] (its ''mirror walls''). Every regular polytope can be dissected radially into instances of its [[W:Orthoscheme#Characteristic simplex of the general regular polytope|characteristic orthoscheme]] surrounding its center. The characteristic orthoscheme has the shape described by the same [[W:Coxeter-Dynkin diagram|Coxeter-Dynkin diagram]] as the regular polytope without the ''generating point'' ring.|name=characteristic orthoscheme}} There are three regular 4-polytopes with tetrahedral cells: the [[5-cell]], the 16-cell, and the [[600-cell]]. Although all are bounded by ''regular'' tetrahedron cells, their characteristic 5-cells (4-orthoschemes) are different [[5-cell#Isometries|tetrahedral pyramids]], all based on the same characteristic ''irregular'' tetrahedron. They share the same [[W:Tetrahedron#Orthoschemes|characteristic tetrahedron]] (3-orthoscheme) and characteristic [[W:Right triangle|right triangle]] (2-orthoscheme) because they have the same kind of cell.{{Efn|A regular polytope of dimension ''k'' has a characteristic ''k''-orthoscheme, and also a characteristic (''k''-1)-orthoscheme. A regular 4-polytope has a characteristic 5-cell (4-orthoscheme) into which it is subdivided by its (3-dimensional) hyperplanes of symmetry, and also a characteristic tetrahedron (3-orthoscheme) into which its surface is subdivided by its cells' (2-dimensional) planes of symmetry. After subdividing its (3-dimensional) surface into characteristic tetrahedra surrounding each cell center, its (4-dimensional) interior can be subdivided into characteristic 5-cells by adding radii joining the vertices of the surface characteristic tetrahedra to the 4-polytope's center.{{Sfn|Coxeter|1973|p=130|loc=§&amp;nbsp;7.6|ps=; &quot;simplicial subdivision&quot;.}} The interior tetrahedra and triangles thus formed will also be orthoschemes.}}

{| class=&quot;wikitable floatright&quot;
!colspan=6|Characteristics of the 16-cell{{Sfn|Coxeter|1973|pp=292-293|loc=Table I(ii); &quot;16-cell, 𝛽&lt;sub&gt;4&lt;/sub&gt;&quot;}}
|-
!align=right|
!align=center|edge{{Sfn|Coxeter|1973|p=139|loc=§&amp;nbsp;7.9 The characteristic simplex}}
!colspan=2 align=center|arc
!colspan=2 align=center|dihedral{{Sfn|Coxeter|1973|p=290|loc=Table I(ii); &quot;dihedral angles&quot;}}
|-
!align=right|𝒍
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2} \approx 1.414&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;90°&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\tfrac{\pi}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;120°&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\tfrac{2\pi}{3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|
|
|
|
|
|-
!align=right|𝟀
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\tfrac{2}{3}} \approx 0.816&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;60″&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\tfrac{\pi}{3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;60°&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\tfrac{\pi}{3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
!align=right|𝝉{{Efn|{{Harv|Coxeter|1973}} uses the greek letter 𝝓 (phi) to represent one of the three ''characteristic angles'' 𝟀, 𝝓, 𝟁 of a regular polytope. Because 𝝓 is commonly used to represent the [[W:Golden ratio|golden ratio]] constant ≈ 1.618, for which Coxeter uses 𝝉 (tau), we reverse Coxeter's conventions, and use 𝝉 to represent the characteristic angle.|name=reversed greek symbols}}
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\tfrac{1}{2}} \approx 0.707&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;45″&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\tfrac{\pi}{4}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;45°&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\tfrac{\pi}{4}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
!align=right|𝟁
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\tfrac{1}{6}} \approx 0.408&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;30″&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\tfrac{\pi}{6}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;60°&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\tfrac{\pi}{3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|
|
|
|
|
|-
!align=right|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;_0R^3/l&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\tfrac{3}{4}} \approx 0.866&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;60°&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\tfrac{\pi}{3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;90°&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\tfrac{\pi}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
!align=right|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;_1R^3/l&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\tfrac{1}{4}} = 0.5&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;45°&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\tfrac{\pi}{4}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;90°&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\tfrac{\pi}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
!align=right|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;_2R^3/l&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\tfrac{1}{12}} \approx 0.289&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;30°&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\tfrac{\pi}{6}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;90°&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\tfrac{\pi}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|
|
|
|
|
|-
!align=right|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;_0R^4/l&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|
|align=center|
|align=center|
|align=center|
|-
!align=right|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;_1R^4/l&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\tfrac{1}{2}} \approx 0.707&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|
|align=center|
|align=center|
|align=center|
|-
!align=right|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;_2R^4/l&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\tfrac{1}{3}} \approx 0.577&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|
|align=center|
|align=center|
|align=center|
|-
!align=right|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;_3R^4/l&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\tfrac{1}{4}} = 0.5&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|
|align=center|
|align=center|
|align=center|
|}
The '''characteristic 5-cell of the regular 16-cell''' is represented by the [[W:Coxeter-Dynkin diagram|Coxeter-Dynkin diagram]] {{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node|3|node|3|node|4|node}}, which can be read as a list of the dihedral angles between its mirror facets. It is an irregular [[W:Pyramid (mathematics)#Polyhedral pyramid|tetrahedral pyramid]] based on the [[W:Tetrahedron#Orthoschemes|characteristic tetrahedron of the regular tetrahedron]]. The regular 16-cell is subdivided by its symmetry hyperplanes into 384 instances of its characteristic 5-cell that all meet at its center.

The characteristic 5-cell (4-orthoscheme) has four more edges than its base characteristic tetrahedron (3-orthoscheme), joining the four vertices of the base to its apex (the fifth vertex of the 4-orthoscheme, at the center of the regular 16-cell).{{Efn|The four edges of each 4-orthoscheme which meet at the center of a regular 4-polytope are of unequal length, because they are the four characteristic radii of the regular 4-polytope: a vertex radius, an edge center radius, a face center radius, and a cell center radius. The five vertices of the 4-orthoscheme always include one regular 4-polytope vertex, one regular 4-polytope edge center, one regular 4-polytope face center, one regular 4-polytope cell center, and the regular 4-polytope center. Those five vertices (in that order) comprise a path along four mutually perpendicular edges (that makes three right angle turns), the characteristic feature of a 4-orthoscheme. The 4-orthoscheme has five dissimilar 3-orthoscheme facets.|name=characteristic radii}} If the regular 16-cell has unit radius edge and edge length 𝒍 = &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;, its characteristic 5-cell's ten edges have lengths &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\tfrac{2}{3}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;, &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\tfrac{1}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;, &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\tfrac{1}{6}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; around its exterior right-triangle face (the edges opposite the ''characteristic angles'' 𝟀, 𝝉, 𝟁),{{Efn|name=reversed greek symbols}} plus &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\tfrac{3}{4}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;, &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\tfrac{1}{4}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;, &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\tfrac{1}{12}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; (the other three edges of the exterior 3-orthoscheme facet the characteristic tetrahedron, which are the ''characteristic radii'' of the regular tetrahedron), plus &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;, &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\tfrac{1}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;, &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\tfrac{1}{3}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;, &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\tfrac{1}{4}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; (edges which are the characteristic radii of the regular 16-cell). The 4-edge path along orthogonal edges of the orthoscheme is &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\tfrac{1}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;, &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\tfrac{1}{6}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;, &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\tfrac{1}{4}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;, &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\tfrac{1}{4}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;, first from a 16-cell vertex to a 16-cell edge center, then turning 90° to a 16-cell face center, then turning 90° to a 16-cell tetrahedral cell center, then turning 90° to the 16-cell center.

==== Helical construction ====
[[File:Eight face-bonded tetrahedra.jpg|thumb|A 4-dimensional ring of 8 face-bonded tetrahedra, seen in the [[W:Boerdijk–Coxeter helix|Boerdijk–Coxeter helix]], bounded by three eight-edge circular paths of different colors, cut and laid out flat in 3-dimensional space. It contains an ''isocline'' axis (not shown), a helical circle of circumference 4𝝅 that twists through all four dimensions and visits all 8 vertices.{{Efn|name=isocline}} The two blue-blue-yellow triangles at either end of the cut ring are the same object.]]
[[File:16-cell 8-ring net4.png|thumb|Net and orthogonal projection]]

A 16-cell can be constructed (three different ways) from two [[W:Boerdijk–Coxeter helix|Boerdijk–Coxeter helix]]es of eight chained tetrahedra, each bent in the fourth dimension into a ring.{{Sfn|Coxeter|1970|loc=Table 2: Reflexible honeycombs and their groups|p=45|ps=; Honeycomb [3,3,4]&lt;sub&gt;4&lt;/sub&gt; is a tiling of the 3-sphere by 2 rings of 8 tetrahedral cells.}}{{Sfn|Banchoff|2013}} The two circular helixes share the same 8 vertices and 24 edges, but their tetrahedra are disjoint. The helixes spiral around each other, nest into each other and pass through each other forming a [[W:Hopf link|Hopf link]]. 16 of the 32 triangle faces can be seen in a 2D net within a [[W:Triangular tiling|triangular tiling]], with 6 triangles around every vertex. The [[W:Petrie polygon|Petrie polygon]] of the 16-cell is a skew octagon, visible as the purple edges in the octagon orthogonal projection, and as the light blue edges in the tetrahedral helix. Each eight-cell ring of tetrahedra actually contains three such skew [[W:Octagram|octagram]]s of different colors, eight-edge circular paths that wind twice around the 16-cell on every third vertex of the octagram. The orange and yellow edges are two four-edge halves of one skew octagram, which join their ends to form a [[W:Möbius strip|Möbius strip]].

Thus the 16-cell can be decomposed into two cell-disjoint circular chains of eight tetrahedrons each, four edges long, one spiraling to the right (clockwise) and the other spiraling to the left (counterclockwise). The left-handed and right-handed cell rings fit together, nesting into each other and entirely filling the 16-cell, even though they are of opposite chirality. This decomposition can be seen in a 4-4 [[W:Duoantiprism|duoantiprism]] construction of the 16-cell: {{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_h|2x|node_h|2x|node_h|2x|node_h}} or {{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node|4|node_h|2x|node_h|4|node}}, [[W:Schläfli symbol|Schläfli symbol]] {2}⨂{2} or s{2}s{2}, [[W:Coxeter notation|symmetry]] [4,2&lt;sup&gt;+&lt;/sup&gt;,4], order 64.

Three eight-edge paths (of different colors) spiral along each eight-cell ring, making 90° angles at each vertex. (In the Boerdijk–Coxeter helix before it is bent into a ring, the angles in different paths vary, but are not 90°.) Three paths (with three different colors and apparent angles) pass through each vertex. When the helix is bent into a ring, the segments of each eight-edge path (of various lengths) join their ends, forming a Möbius strip eight edges long along its single-sided circumference of 4𝝅, and one edge wide.{{Efn|name=Möbius circle}} The six four-edge halves of the three eight-edge paths each make four 90° angles, but they are ''not'' the six orthogonal great squares: they are open-ended squares, four-edge 360° helices whose open ends are [[W:Antipodal point|antipodal]] vertices. The four edges come from four different great squares, and are mutually orthogonal. Combined end-to-end in pairs of the same [[W:Chirality|chirality]], the six four-edge paths make three eight-edge Möbius loops, [[W:Helix|helical]] octagrams. Each octagram is both a [[W:Petrie polygon|Petrie polygon]] of the 16-cell, and the helical track along which all eight vertices rotate together, in one of the 16-cell's distinct isoclinic [[#Rotations|rotations]].{{Efn|The 16-cell can be constructed from two cell-disjoint eight-cell rings in three different ways; it has three orientations of its pair of rings. Each orientation &quot;contains&quot; a distinct left-right pair of isoclinic rotations, and also a pair of completely orthogonal great squares (Clifford parallel fibers), so each orientation is a discrete [[W:Hopf fibration|fibration]] of the 16-cell. Each eight-cell ring contains three axial octagrams which have different orientations (they exchange roles) in the three discrete fibrations and six distinct isoclinic rotations (three left and three right) through the cell rings. Three octagrams (of different colors) can be seen in the illustration of a single cell ring, one in the role of Petrie polygon, one as the right isocline, and one as the left isocline. Because each octagram plays three roles, there are exactly six distinct isoclines in the 16-cell, not 18.|name=only one disjoint pair of eight-cell rings}}

{| class=&quot;wikitable&quot; width=610
!colspan=5|Five ways of looking at the same [[W:Skew polygon|skew]] [[W:Octagram|octagram]]{{Efn|All five views are the same orthogonal projection of the 16-cell into the same plane (a circular cross-section of the eight-cell ring cylinder), looking along the central axis of the cut ring cylinder pictured above, from one end of the cylinder. The only difference is which {{radic|2}} edges and {{radic|4}} chords are ''omitted'' for focus. The different colors of {{radic|2}} edges appear to be of different lengths because they are oblique to the viewer at different angles. Vertices are numbered 1 (top) through 8 in counterclockwise order.}}
|-
![[#Rotations|Edge path]]
![[W:Petrie polygon#The Petrie polygon of regular polychora (4-polytopes)|Petrie polygon]]{{Sfn|Coxeter|1973|pp=292-293|loc=Table I(ii); 24-cell ''h&lt;sub&gt;1&lt;/sub&gt;''}}
!16-cell
![[W:Hopf fibration|Discrete fibration]]
![[#Coordinates|Diameter chords]]
|-
![[W:Octagram|Octagram]]&lt;sub&gt;{8/3}&lt;/sub&gt;{{Sfn|Coxeter|1973|pp=292-293|loc=Table I(ii); 24-cell ''h&lt;sub&gt;2&lt;/sub&gt;''}}
![[W:Petrie polygon#The Petrie polygon of regular polychora (4-polytopes)|Octagram]]&lt;sub&gt;{8/1}&lt;/sub&gt;
![[W:Coxeter element#Coxeter plane|Coxeter plane]] [[W:B4 polytope|B&lt;sub&gt;4&lt;/sub&gt;]]
![[W:Octagram#Star polygon compounds|Octagram]]&lt;sub&gt;{8/2}=2{4}&lt;/sub&gt;
![[W:Octagram#Star polygon compounds|Octagram]]&lt;sub&gt;{8/4}=4{2}&lt;/sub&gt;
|-
|align=center|[[File:16-cell skew octagram (8-3).png|120px]]
|align=center|[[File:16-cell skew octagram (8).png|120px]]
|align=center|[[File:16-cell skew octagram.png|120px]]
|align=center|[[File:16-cell skew octagram 2(4).png|120px]]
|align=center|[[File:16-cell skew octagram 4(2).png|120px]]
|-
|The eight {{radic|2}} chords of the edge-path of an isocline.{{Efn|name=isocline curve}}
|Skew [[W:Octagon|octagon]] of eight {{radic|2}} edges. The 16-cell has 3 of these 8-vertex circuits.
|All 24 {{radic|2}} edges and the four {{radic|4}} orthogonal axes.
|Two completely orthogonal (disjoint) great squares of {{radic|2}} edges.{{Efn|name=Clifford parallel great squares}}
|The four {{radic|4}} chords of an isocline. Every fourth isocline vertex is joined to its antipodal vertex by a 16-cell axis.{{Efn|Each isocline has the eight continuous {{radic|2}} chords of its octagram&lt;sub&gt;{8/3}&lt;/sub&gt; edge-path, and also four discontinuous {{radic|4}} diameter chords that connect every ''fourth'' vertex on the octagram but do not connect to each other. Antipodal vertices also have a twisted continuous path of four mutually orthogonal {{radic|2}} edges connecting them. Between antipodal vertices, the isocline curves smoothly around in a helix over the four {{radic|2}} chords of its edge-path, hitting the three intervening vertices. Each {{radic|2}} edge is an edge of a great square, that is completely orthogonal to another great square, in which the {{radic|4}} chord is a diagonal.|name=isocline curve}}
|}
Each eight-edge helix is a [[W:Skew polygon|skew]] [[W:Octagram|octagram]]&lt;sub&gt;{8/3}&lt;/sub&gt; that [[W:Winding number|winds three times]] around the 16-cell and visits every vertex before closing into a loop. Its eight {{radic|2}} edges are chords of an ''isocline'', a helical arc on which the 8 vertices circle during an isoclinic rotation.{{Efn|An isocline is a circle of special kind corresponding to a pair of [[W:Villarceau circle|Villarceau circle]]s linked in a [[W:Möbius loop|Möbius loop]]. It curves through four dimensions instead of just two. All ordinary circles have a 2𝝅 circumference, but the 16-cell's isocline is a circle with an 4𝝅 circumference (over eight 90° chords). An isocline is a circle that does not lie in a plane, but to avoid confusion we always refer to it as an ''isocline'' and reserve the term ''circle'' for an ordinary circle in the plane.|name=Möbius circle}} All eight 16-cell vertices are {{radic|2}} apart except for opposite (antipodal) vertices, which are {{radic|4}} apart. A vertex moving on the isocline visits three other vertices that are {{radic|2}} apart before reaching the fourth vertex that is {{radic|4}} away.{{Efn|In the 16-cell, two antipodal vertices are opposite vertices of two face-bonded tetrahedral cells. The two antipodal vertices are connected by (three different) two-edge great circle paths along edges of the tetrahedral cells, by various three-edge paths, and by four-edge paths on isoclines and Petrie polygons. {{Efn|name=Möbius circle}}|name=isocline}}

The eight-cell ring is [[W:Chiral|chiral]]: there is a right-handed form which spirals clockwise, and a left-handed form which spirals counterclockwise. The 16-cell contains one of each, so it also contains a left and a right isocline; the isocline is the circular axis around which the eight-cell ring twists. Each isocline visits all eight vertices of the 16-cell.{{Efn|In the 16-cell each ''single'' isocline winds through all 8 vertices: an entire [[W:Hopf fibration|fibration]] of two completely orthogonal great squares.{{Efn|name=completely orthogonal Clifford parallels are special}} The 5-cell and the 16-cell are the only regular 4-polytopes where each discrete fibration has just one isocline fiber.{{Efn|Except in the 5-cell and 16-cell,{{Efn|name=two special cases}} a pair of left and right isocline circles have disjoint vertices: the left and right isocline helices are non-intersecting parallels but counter-rotating, forming a special kind of double helix which cannot occur in three dimensions (where counter-rotating helices of the same radius must intersect).|name=counter-rotating double helix}}|name=each 16-cell isocline reaches all 8 vertices}} Each eight-cell ring contains half of the 16 cells, but all 8 vertices; the two rings share the vertices, as they nest into each other and fit together. They also share the 24 edges, though left and right octagram helices are different eight-edge paths.{{Efn|The left and right isoclines intersect each other at every vertex. They are different sequences of the same set of 8 vertices. With respect only to the set of 4 vertex pairs which are {{radic|2}} apart, they can be considered to be Clifford parallel. With respect only to the set of 4 vertex pairs which are {{radic|4}} apart, they can be considered to be completely orthogonal.{{Efn|name=completely orthogonal Clifford parallels are special}}}}

Because there are three pairs of completely orthogonal great squares,{{Efn|name=Six orthogonal planes of the Cartesian basis}} there are three congruent ways to compose a 16-cell from two eight-cell rings. The 16-cell contains three left-right pairs of eight-cell rings in different orientations, with each cell ring containing its axial isocline.{{Efn|name=only one disjoint pair of eight-cell rings}} Each left-right pair of isoclines is the track of a left-right pair of distinct isoclinic rotations: the rotations in one pair of completely orthogonal invariant planes of rotation.{{Efn|name=Clifford parallel great squares}} At each vertex, there are three great squares and six octagram isoclines that cross at the vertex and share a 16-cell axis chord.{{Efn|This is atypical for isoclinic rotations generally; normally both the left and right isoclines do not occur at the same vertex: there are two disjoint sets of vertices reachable only by the left or right rotation respectively.{{Efn|name=counter-rotating double helix}} The left and right isoclines of the 16-cell form a very special double helix: unusual not just because it is circular, but because its different left and right helices twist around each other through the ''same set'' of antipodal vertices,{{Efn|name=each 16-cell isocline reaches all 8 vertices}} not through the two ''disjoint subsets'' of antipodal vertices, as the isocline pairs do in most isoclinic rotations found in nature.{{Efn|For another example of the left and right isoclines of a rotation visiting the same set of vertices, see the [[5-cell#Geodesics and rotations|characteristic isoclinic rotation of the 5-cell]]. Although in these two special cases left and right isoclines of the same rotation visit the same set of vertices, they still take very different rotational paths because they visit the same vertices in different sequences.|name=two special cases}} Isoclinic rotations in completely orthogonal invariant planes are special.{{Efn|Each great square plane is isoclinic (Clifford parallel) to five other square planes but completely orthogonal to only one of them. Every pair of completely orthogonal planes has Clifford parallel great circles, but not all Clifford parallel great circles are orthogonal. There is also another way in which completely orthogonal planes are in a distinguished category of Clifford parallel planes: they are not [[W:Chiral|chiral]]. A pair of isoclinic (Clifford parallel) planes is either a ''left pair'' or a ''right pair'' unless they are separated by two angles of 90° (completely orthogonal planes) or 0° (coincident planes).{{Sfn|Kim|Rote|2016|pp=7-8|loc=§&amp;nbsp;6 Angles between two Planes in 4-Space|ps=; Left and Right Pairs of Isoclinic Planes.}} Most isoclinic planes are brought together only by a left isoclinic rotation or a right isoclinic rotation, respectively. Completely orthogonal planes are special: the pair of planes is both a left and a right pair, so either a left or a right isoclinic rotation will bring them together. Because planes separated by a 90° isoclinic rotation are 180° apart, the plane to the ''left'' and the plane to the ''right'' are the same plane.{{Efn|name=exchange of completely orthogonal planes}}|name=completely orthogonal Clifford parallels are special}} To see ''how'' and ''why'' they are special, visualize two completely orthogonal invariant planes of rotation, each rotating by some rotation angle ''and'' tilting sideways by the same rotation angle into a different plane entirely.{{Efn|name=isoclinic rotation}} ''Only when the rotation angle is 90°,'' that different plane in which the tilting invariant plane lands will be the completely orthogonal invariant plane itself. The destination plane of the rotation ''is'' the completely orthogonal invariant plane. The 90° isoclinic rotation is the only rotation which takes the completely orthogonal invariant planes to each other.{{Efn|name=exchange of completely orthogonal planes}} This reciprocity is the reason both left and right rotations go to the same place.}}

=== As a configuration ===
This [[W:Regular 4-polytope#As configurations|configuration matrix]] represents the 16-cell. The rows and columns correspond to vertices, edges, faces, and cells. The diagonal numbers say how many of each element occur in the whole 16-cell. The nondiagonal numbers say how many of the column's element occur in or at the row's element.

&lt;math&gt;\begin{bmatrix}\begin{matrix}8 &amp; 6 &amp; 12 &amp; 8 \\ 2 &amp; 24 &amp; 4 &amp; 4 \\ 3 &amp; 3 &amp; 32 &amp; 2 \\ 4 &amp; 6 &amp; 4 &amp; 16 \end{matrix}\end{bmatrix}&lt;/math&gt;

== Tessellations ==
One can [[W:Tessellation|tessellate]] 4-dimensional [[W:Euclidean space|Euclidean space]] by regular 16-cells. This is called the [[W:16-cell honeycomb|16-cell honeycomb]] and has [[W:Schläfli symbol|Schläfli symbol]] {3,3,4,3}. Hence, the 16-cell has a [[W:Dihedral angle|dihedral angle]] of 120°.{{sfn|Coxeter|1973|p=293}} Each 16-cell has 16 neighbors with which it shares a tetrahedron, 24 neighbors with which it shares only an edge, and 72 neighbors with which it shares only a single point. Twenty-four 16-cells meet at any given vertex in this tessellation.

The dual tessellation, the [[W:24-cell honeycomb|24-cell honeycomb]], {3,4,3,3}, is made of regular [[24-cell]]s. Together with the [[W:Tesseractic honeycomb|tesseractic honeycomb]] {4,3,3,4} these are the only three [[W:List of regular polytopes#Tessellations of Euclidean 4-space|regular tessellations]] of '''R'''&lt;sup&gt;4&lt;/sup&gt;.

== Projections ==
{{B4 Coxeter plane graphs|t3|150}}

[[File:Orthogonal projection envelopes 16-cell.png|thumb|Projection envelopes of the 16-cell. (Each cell is drawn with different color faces, inverted cells are undrawn)]]

The cell-first parallel projection of the 16-cell into 3-space has a [[W:cube|cubical]] envelope. The closest and farthest cells are projected to inscribed tetrahedra within the cube, corresponding with the two possible ways to inscribe a regular tetrahedron in a cube. Surrounding each of these tetrahedra are 4 other (non-regular) tetrahedral volumes that are the images of the 4 surrounding tetrahedral cells, filling up the space between the inscribed tetrahedron and the cube. The remaining 6 cells are projected onto the square faces of the cube. In this projection of the 16-cell, all its edges lie on the faces of the cubical envelope.

The cell-first perspective projection of the 16-cell into 3-space has a [[W:triakis tetrahedron|triakis tetrahedral]] envelope. The layout of the cells within this envelope are analogous to that of the cell-first parallel projection.

The vertex-first parallel [[W:Graphical projection|projection]] of the 16-cell into 3-space has an [[W:octahedron|octahedral]] [[W:projection envelope|envelope]]. This octahedron can be divided into 8 tetrahedral volumes, by cutting along the coordinate planes. Each of these volumes is the image of a pair of cells in the 16-cell. The closest vertex of the 16-cell to the viewer projects onto the center of the octahedron.

Finally the edge-first parallel projection has a shortened octahedral envelope, and the face-first parallel projection has a [[W:hexagonal bipyramid]]al envelope.

== 4 sphere Venn diagram ==
A 3-dimensional projection of the 16-cell and 4 intersecting spheres (a [[W:Venn diagram|Venn diagram]] of 4 sets) are [[W:topology|topologically]] equivalent.

{|
|-
|
{{multiple image
 | align = left  | total_width = 700
 | image1 = 4 spheres, cell 00, solid.png
 | image2 = 4 spheres, weight 1, solid.png
 | image3 = 4 spheres, weight 2, solid.png
 | image4 = 4 spheres, weight 3, solid.png
 | image5 = 4 spheres, cell 15, solid.png
 | footer = The 16 cells ordered by number of intersecting spheres (from 0 to 4) &amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp; &lt;small&gt;(see all [[commons:Category:Venn diagrams rgby; single cells|cells]] and [[v:Tesseract and 16-cell faces|''k''-faces]])&lt;/small&gt;
}}
|
{{multiple image
 | align = right  | total_width = 290
 | image1 = 4 spheres as rings, vertical.png
 | image2 = Stereographic polytope 16cell.png
 | footer = 4 sphere Venn diagram and 16-cell projection in the same orientation
}}
|}

== Symmetry constructions ==
The 16-cell's [[W:Coxeter group|symmetry group]] is denoted [[W:B4 polytope|B&lt;sub&gt;4&lt;/sub&gt;]].

There is a lower symmetry form of the ''16-cell'', called a '''demitesseract''' or '''4-demicube''', a member of the [[W:Demihypercube|demihypercube]] family.{{Sfn|Conway, Burgiel &amp; Goodman-Strauss|2008| loc=Chapter 26. Hemicubes: 1&lt;sub&gt;n1&lt;/sub&gt; | p=409 }} It is represented by h{4,3,3} and [[W:Coxeter diagram|Coxeter diagram]]s {{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_h1|4|node|3|node|3|node}} or {{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|nodes_10ru|split2|node|3|node}}. It can be drawn bicolored with alternating [[W:tetrahedron|tetrahedral]] cells.

It can also be seen in lower symmetry form as a '''tetrahedral antiprism''', constructed by 2 parallel [[W:tetrahedron|tetrahedra]] in dual configurations, connected by 8 (possibly elongated) tetrahedra. It is represented by s{2,4,3}, and Coxeter diagram: {{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_h|2x|node_h|4|node|3|node}}.

It can also be seen as a snub 4-[[W:Orthotope|orthotope]], represented by s{2&lt;sup&gt;1,1,1&lt;/sup&gt;}, and Coxeter diagram: {{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_h|2x|node_h|2x|node_h|2x|node_h}} or {{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_h|2x|node_h|split1-22|nodes_hh}}.

With the [[W:Tesseract|tesseract]] constructed as a 4-4 [[W:Duoprism|duoprism]], the 16-cell can be seen as its dual, a 4-4 [[W:Duopyramid|duopyramid]].

{| class=wikitable
!Name
![[W:Coxeter diagram|Coxeter diagram]]
![[W:Schläfli symbol|Schläfli symbol]]
![[W:Coxeter notation|Coxeter notation]]
!Order
![[W:Vertex figure|Vertex figure]]
|- align=center
!Regular 16-cell
|{{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_1|3|node|3|node|4|node}}
|{3,3,4}
|[3,3,4]||384
|{{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_1|3|node|4|node}}
|- align=center
!Demitesseract&lt;br /&gt;[[W:Quasiregular polytope|Quasiregular]] 16-cell
|{{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|nodes_10ru|split2|node|3|node}} = {{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_h1|4|node|3|node|3|node}}&lt;br /&gt;{{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_1|3|node|split1|nodes}} = {{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_1|3|node|3|node|4|node_h0}}
|h{4,3,3}&lt;br /&gt;{3,3&lt;sup&gt;1,1&lt;/sup&gt;}
|[3&lt;sup&gt;1,1,1&lt;/sup&gt;] = [1&lt;sup&gt;+&lt;/sup&gt;,4,3,3]||192
|{{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node|3|node_1|3|node}}
|- align=center
!Alternated 4-4 [[W:Duoprism|duoprism]]
|{{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|label2|branch_hh|4a4b|nodes}}
|2s{4,2,4}
|[[W:4,2&lt;sup&gt;+&lt;/sup&gt;,4|4,2&lt;sup&gt;+&lt;/sup&gt;,4]]||64
|
|- align=center
!Tetrahedral antiprism
|{{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_h|2x|node_h|4|node|3|node}}
|s{2,4,3}
|[2&lt;sup&gt;+&lt;/sup&gt;,4,3]||48
|
|- align=center
!Alternated square prism prism
|{{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_h|2x|node_h|2x|node_h|4|node}}
|sr{2,2,4}
|[(2,2)&lt;sup&gt;+&lt;/sup&gt;,4]||16
|
|- align=center
!Snub 4-[[W:Orthotope|orthotope]]
|{{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_h|2x|node_h|2x|node_h|2x|node_h}} = {{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_h|2x|node_h|split1-22|nodes_hh}}
|s{2&lt;sup&gt;1,1,1&lt;/sup&gt;}
|[2,2,2]&lt;sup&gt;+&lt;/sup&gt; = [2&lt;sup&gt;1,1,1&lt;/sup&gt;]&lt;sup&gt;+&lt;/sup&gt;||8
|{{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_h|2x|node_h|2x|node_h}}
|- align=center
!rowspan=6|4-[[W:Rhombic fusil|fusil]]
|- align=center
|{{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_f1|4|node|3|node|3|node}}
|{3,3,4}
|[3,3,4]||384
|{{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_f1|4|node|3|node}}
|- align=center
|{{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_f1|4|node|2x|node_f1|4|node}}
|{4}+{4} or 2{4}
|&lt;nowiki&gt;[[W:4,2,4|4,2,4]]&lt;/nowiki&gt; = [8,2&lt;sup&gt;+&lt;/sup&gt;,8]||128
|{{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_f1|4|node|2x|node_f1}}
|- align=center
|{{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_f1|4|node|3|node|2x|node_f1}}
|{3,4}+{ }
|[4,3,2]||96
|{{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_f1|4|node|3|node}}&lt;br /&gt;{{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_f1|4|node|2x|node_f1}}
|- align=center
|{{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_f1|4|node|2x|node_f1|2x|node_f1}}
|{4}+2{ }
|[4,2,2]||32
|{{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_f1|4|node|2x|node_f1}}&lt;br /&gt;{{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_f1|2x|node_f1|2x|node_f1}}
|- align=center
|{{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_f1|2x|node_f1|2x|node_f1|2x|node_f1}}
|{ }+{ }+{ }+{ } or 4{ }
|[2,2,2]||16
|{{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_f1|2x|node_f1|2x|node_f1}}
|}

== Related complex polygons ==
The [[W:Möbius–Kantor polygon|Möbius–Kantor polygon]] is a [[W:Regular complex polytope|regular complex polygon]] &lt;sub&gt;3&lt;/sub&gt;{3}&lt;sub&gt;3&lt;/sub&gt;, {{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|3node_1|3|3node}}, in &lt;math&gt;\mathbb{C}^2&lt;/math&gt; shares the same vertices as the 16-cell. It has 8 vertices, and 8 3-edges.{{Sfn|Coxeter|1991|pp=30,47}}{{Sfn|Coxeter &amp; Shephard|1992}}

The regular complex polygon, &lt;sub&gt;2&lt;/sub&gt;{4}&lt;sub&gt;4&lt;/sub&gt;, {{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_1|4|4node}}, in &lt;math&gt;\mathbb{C}^2&lt;/math&gt; has a real representation as a 16-cell in 4-dimensional space with 8 vertices, 16 2-edges, only half of the edges of the 16-cell.  Its symmetry is &lt;sub&gt;4&lt;/sub&gt;[4]&lt;sub&gt;2&lt;/sub&gt;, order 32.{{Sfn|Coxeter|1991|p=108}}

{| class=wikitable width=320
|+ [[W:Orthographic projection|Orthographic projection]]s of &lt;sub&gt;2&lt;/sub&gt;{4}&lt;sub&gt;4&lt;/sub&gt; polygon
|- valign=top
|[[File:Complex polygon 2-4-4.png|160px]]&lt;br /&gt;In B&lt;sub&gt;4&lt;/sub&gt; [[W:Coxeter plane|Coxeter plane]], &lt;sub&gt;2&lt;/sub&gt;{4}&lt;sub&gt;4&lt;/sub&gt; has 8 vertices and 16 2-edges, shown here with 4 sets of colors.
|[[File:Complex polygon 2-4-4 bipartite graph.png|160px]]&lt;br /&gt;The 8 vertices are grouped in 2 sets (shown red and blue), each only connected with edges to vertices in the other set, making this polygon a [[W:Complete bipartite graph|complete bipartite graph]], K&lt;sub&gt;4,4&lt;/sub&gt;.{{Sfn|Coxeter|1991|p=114}}
|}

== Related uniform polytopes and honeycombs ==

The regular 16-cell and [[W:Tesseract|tesseract]] are the regular members of a set of 15 [[W:B4 polytope|uniform 4-polytopes with the same B&lt;sub&gt;4&lt;/sub&gt; symmetry]]. The 16-cell is also one of the [[W:D4 polytope|uniform polytopes of D&lt;sub&gt;4&lt;/sub&gt; symmetry]].

The 16-cell is also related to the [[W:Cubic honeycomb|cubic honeycomb]], [[W:Order-4 dodecahedral honeycomb|order-4 dodecahedral honeycomb]], and [[W:Order-4 hexagonal tiling honeycomb|order-4 hexagonal tiling honeycomb]] which all have [[W:Hexagonal tiling honeycomb#Polytopes and honeycombs with tetrahedral vertex figures|octahedral vertex figures]].

It belongs to the sequence of  [[W:Order-6 tetrahedral honeycomb#Related polytopes and honeycombs|{3,3,p} 4-polytopes]] which have tetrahedral cells. The sequence includes three [[W:Regular 4-polytope|regular 4-polytope]]s of Euclidean 4-space, the [[5-cell]] {3,3,3}, 16-cell {3,3,4}, and [[600-cell]] {3,3,5}), and the [[W:Order-6 tetrahedral honeycomb|order-6 tetrahedral honeycomb]] {3,3,6} of hyperbolic space.

It is first in a sequence of [[W:Tetrahedral-octahedral honeycomb#Quasuiregular honeycombs|quasiregular polytopes and honeycombs]] h{4,p,q}, and a [[W:Order-4 hexagonal tiling honeycomb#Quasiregular honeycombs|half symmetry sequence]], for regular forms {p,3,4}.

== See also ==
*[[24-cell]]
*[[W:4-polytope|4-polytope]]
*[[W:D4 polytope|D4 polytope]]

== Notes ==
{{Regular convex 4-polytopes Notelist|wiki=W:}}

== Citations ==
{{Regular convex 4-polytopes Reflist|wiki=W:}}

== References ==
{{Refbegin}}
{{Regular convex 4-polytopes Refs|wiki=W:}}
{{Refend}}

== External links ==
* [https://bendwavy.org/klitzing/incmats/hex.htm hex], at [https://bendwavy.org/klitzing/home.htm Klitzing polytopes]
* [https://polytope.miraheze.org/wiki/Hexadecachoron Hexadecachoron], at [https://polytope.miraheze.org/wiki/Main_Page Polytope wiki]
* [http://hi.gher.space/wiki/Aerochoron Aerochoron], at [http://hi.gher.space/wiki/Main_Page Higher space]
* [https://www.qfbox.info/4d/uniform Uniform polychora (The tesseract/16-cell family)], at [https://www.qfbox.info/4d/index 4D Euclidean Space]

[[Category:Geometry]]
[[Category:Polyscheme]]</text>
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      <text bytes="58821" sha1="a8ib0p8a8mj0snhflga8xanlpv9zz8v" xml:space="preserve">{{Short description|Four-dimensional analog of the octahedron}}
{{Polyscheme|radius=an '''expanded version''' of}}
{{Infobox 4-polytope |
  Name=16-cell&lt;br /&gt;(4-orthoplex)|
  Image_File=Schlegel wireframe 16-cell.png|
  Image_Caption=[[W:Schlegel diagram|Schlegel diagram]]&lt;br /&gt;(vertices and edges)|
  Type=[[W:Convex regular 4-polytope|Convex regular 4-polytope]]&lt;br /&gt;4-[[W:Orthoplex|orthoplex]]&lt;br /&gt;4-[[W:Demihypercube|demicube]]|
  Last=[[W:Rectified tesseract|11]]|
  Index=12|
  Next=[[W:Truncated tesseract|13]]|
  Schläfli={3,3,4}|
  CD={{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_1|3|node|3|node|4|node}} |
  Cell_List=16 [[W:Tetrahedron|{3,3}]] [[File:3-simplex t0.svg|25px]]|
  Face_List=32 [[W:Triangle|{3}]] [[File:2-simplex t0.svg|25px]]|
  Edge_Count= 24|
  Vertex_Count= 8|
  Petrie_Polygon=[[W:Octagon|octagon]]|
  Coxeter_Group=B&lt;sub&gt;4&lt;/sub&gt;, [3,3,4], order 384&lt;br /&gt;D&lt;sub&gt;4&lt;/sub&gt;, order 192|
  Vertex_Figure=[[File:16-cell verf.svg|80px]]&lt;br /&gt;[[W:Octahedron|Octahedron]]|
  Dual=[[W:Tesseract|Tesseract]]|
  Property_List=[[W:Convex polytope|convex]], [[W:Isogonal figure|isogonal]], [[W:Isotoxal figure|isotoxal]], [[W:Isohedral figure|isohedral]], [[W:Regular polytope|regular]], [[W:Hanner polytope|Hanner polytope]]
}}
In [[W:Geometry|geometry]], the '''16-cell''' is the [[W:Regular convex 4-polytope|regular convex 4-polytope]] (four-dimensional analogue of a Platonic solid) with [[W:Schläfli symbol|Schläfli symbol]] {3,3,4}. It is one of the six regular convex 4-polytopes first described by the Swiss mathematician [[W:Ludwig Schläfli|Ludwig Schläfli]] in the mid-19th century.{{Sfn|Coxeter|1973|p=141|loc=§&amp;nbsp;7-x. Historical remarks}} It is also called '''C&lt;sub&gt;16&lt;/sub&gt;''', '''hexadecachoron''',&lt;ref&gt;[[W:Norman Johnson (mathematician)|N.W. Johnson]]: ''Geometries and Transformations'', (2018) {{ISBN|978-1-107-10340-5}} Chapter 11: ''Finite Symmetry Groups'', 11.5 ''Spherical Coxeter groups'', p.249&lt;/ref&gt; or '''hexdecahedroid'''.&lt;ref&gt;Matila Ghyka, ''The Geometry of Art and Life'' (1977), p.68&lt;/ref&gt;

It is the 4-dimesional member of an infinite family of polytopes called [[W:Cross-polytope|cross-polytope]]s, ''orthoplexes'', or ''hyperoctahedrons'' which are analogous to the [[W:Cctahedron|octahedron]] in three dimensions. It is Coxeter's &lt;math&gt;\beta_4&lt;/math&gt; polytope.{{Sfn|Coxeter|1973|pp=120=121|loc=§&amp;nbsp;7.2. See illustration Fig 7.2&lt;small&gt;B&lt;/small&gt;}} The [[W:Dual polytope|dual polytope]] is the [[W:Tesseract|tesseract]] (4-[[W:Hypercube|cube]]), which it can be combined with to form [[W:Compound of tesseract and 16-cell|a compound figure]]. The cells of the 16-cell are dual to the 16 vertices of the tesseract.

== Geometry ==
The 16-cell is the second in the sequence of 6 convex regular 4-polytopes (in order of size and complexity).{{Efn|name=polytopes ordered by size and complexity|group=}}

Each of its 4 successor convex regular 4-polytopes can be constructed as the [[W:Convex hull|convex hull]] of a [[W:Polytope compound|polytope compound]] of multiple 16-cells: the 16-vertex [[W:Tesseract|tesseract]] as a compound of two 16-cells, the 24-vertex [[24-cell]] as a compound of three 16-cells, the 120-vertex [[600-cell]] as a compound of fifteen 16-cells, and the 600-vertex [[120-cell]] as a compound of seventy-five 16-cells.{{Efn|There are 2 and only 2 16-cells inscribed in the 8-cell (tesseract), 3 and only 3 16-cells inscribed in the 24-cell, 75 distinct 16-cells (but only 15 disjoint 16-cells) inscribed in the 600-cell, and 675 distinct 16-cells (but only 75 disjoint 16-cells) inscribed in the 120-cell.}}

{{Regular convex 4-polytopes|wiki=W:}}

=== Coordinates ===
{| class=&quot;wikitable floatright&quot;
!colspan=2|Disjoint squares
|-
|
{| class=&quot;wikitable&quot; style=&quot;white-space:nowrap;&quot;
!colspan=2|''xy'' plane
|-
|( 0, 1, 0, 0)||( 0, 0,-1, 0)
|-
|( 0, 0, 1, 0)||( 0,-1, 0, 0)
|}
|-
|
{| class=&quot;wikitable&quot; style=&quot;white-space:nowrap;&quot;
!colspan=2|''wz'' plane
|-
|( 1, 0, 0, 0)||( 0, 0, 0,-1)
|-
|( 0, 0, 0, 1)||(-1, 0, 0, 0)
|}
|}The 16-cell is the 4-dimensional [[W:Cross polytope|cross polytope (4-orthoplex)]], which means its vertices lie in opposite pairs on the 4 axes of a (w, x, y, z) Cartesian coordinate system.

The eight vertices are (±1, 0, 0, 0), (0, ±1, 0, 0), (0, 0, ±1, 0), (0, 0, 0, ±1). All vertices are connected by edges except opposite pairs. The edge length is {{radic|2}}.

The vertex coordinates form 6 [[W:Orthogonal|orthogonal]] central squares lying in the 6 coordinate planes. Squares in ''opposite'' planes that do not share an axis (e.g. in the ''xy'' and ''wz'' planes) are completely disjoint (they do not intersect at any vertices). These planes are [[W:Completely orthogonal|completely orthogonal]].{{Efn|name=Six orthogonal planes of the Cartesian basis}}

The 16-cell constitutes an [[W:Orthonormal basis|orthonormal ''basis'']] for the choice of a 4-dimensional reference frame, because its vertices exactly define the four orthogonal axes.

=== Structure ===
The [[W:Schläfli symbol|Schläfli symbol]] of the 16-cell is {3,3,4}, indicating that its cells are [[W:Regular tetrahedron|regular tetrahedra]] {3,3} and its [[W:Vertex figure|vertex figure]] is a [[W:Regular octahedron|regular octahedron]] {3,4}. There are 8 tetrahedra, 12 triangles, and 6 edges meeting at every vertex. Its [[W:Edge figure|edge figure]] is a square. There are 4 tetrahedra and 4 triangles meeting at every edge.

The 16-cell is [[W:Totally bounded|bounded]] by 16 [[W:Cell (mathematics)|cells]], all of which are regular [[W:Tetrahedron|tetrahedra]].{{Efn|The boundary surface of a 16-cell is a finite 3-dimensional space consisting of 16 tetrahedra arranged face-to-face (four around one). It is a closed, tightly curved (non-Euclidean) 3-space, within which we can move straight through 4 tetrahedra in any direction and arrive back in the tetrahedron where we started. We can visualize moving around inside this tetrahedral [[W:Jungle gym|jungle gym]], climbing from one tetrahedron into another on its 24 struts (its edges), and never being able to get out (or see out) of the 16 tetrahedra no matter what direction we go (or look). We are always on (or in) the ''surface'' of the 16-cell, never inside the 16-cell itself (nor outside it). We can see that the 6 edges around each vertex radiate symmetrically in 3 dimensions and form an orthogonal 3-axis cross, just as the radii of an octahedron do (so we say the vertex figure of the 16-cell is the octahedron).{{Efn|name=octahedral pyramid}}}} It has 32 [[W:Triangle (geometry)|triangular]] [[W:Face (geometry)|faces]], 24 [[W:Edge (geometry)|edges]], and 8 [[W:Vertex (geometry)|vertices]]. The 24 edges bound 6 [[W:Orthogonal|orthogonal]] central squares lying on [[W:Great circle|great circles]] in the 6 coordinate planes (3 pairs of completely orthogonal great squares). At each vertex, 3 great squares cross perpendicularly. The 6 edges meet at the vertex the way 6 edges meet at the [[W:Apex (geometry)|apex]] of a canonical [[W:Octahedral pyramid|octahedral pyramid]].{{Efn|Each vertex in the 16-cell is the apex of an [[W:Octahedral pyramid|octahedral pyramid]], the base of which is the octahedron formed by the 6 other vertices to which the apex is connected by edges. The 16-cell can be deconstructed (four different ways) into two octahedral pyramids by cutting it in half through one of its four octahedral central hyperplanes. Looked at from inside the curved 3 dimensional volume of its boundary surface of 16 face-bonded tetrahedra, the 16-cell's vertex figure is an octahedron. In 4 dimensions, the vertex octahedron is actually an octahedral pyramid. The apex of the octahedral pyramid (the vertex where the 6 edges meet) is not actually at the center of the octahedron: it is displaced radially outwards in the fourth dimension, out of the hyperplane defined by the octahedron's 6 vertices. The 6 edges around the vertex make an orthogonal 3-axis cross in 3 dimensions (and in the [[W:Octahedral pyramid|3-dimensional projection of the 4-pyramid]]), but the 3 lines are actually bent 90 degrees in the fourth dimension where they meet in an apex.|name=octahedral pyramid}} The 6 orthogonal central planes of the 16-cell can be divided into 4 orthogonal central hyperplanes (3-spaces) each forming an [[W:Octahedron|octahedron]] with 3 orthogonal great squares.

=== Rotations ===
{| class=&quot;wikitable&quot; width=480
|- align=center valign=top
|rowspan=2|[[File:16-cell.gif]]&lt;br /&gt;A 3D projection of a 16-cell performing a [[W:SO(4)#Simple rotations|simple rotation]]
|[[File:16-cell-orig.gif]]&lt;br /&gt;A 3D projection of a 16-cell performing a [[W:SO(4)#Double rotations|double rotation]]
|}
[[W:Rotations in 4-dimensional Euclidean space|Rotations in 4-dimensional Euclidean space]] can be seen as the composition of two 2-dimensional rotations in [[w:Completely_orthogonal|completely orthogonal]] planes.{{Sfn|Kim|Rote|2016|p=6|loc=§&amp;nbsp;5. Four-Dimensional Rotations}} The 16-cell is a simple frame in which to observe 4-dimensional rotations, because each of the 16-cell's 6 great squares has another completely orthogonal great square (there are 3 pairs of completely orthogonal squares).{{Efn|name=Six orthogonal planes of the Cartesian basis}} Many rotations of the 16-cell can be characterized by the angle of rotation in one of its great square planes (e.g. the ''xy'' plane) and another angle of rotation in the completely orthogonal great square plane (the ''wz'' plane).{{Efn|Each great square vertex is {{radic|2}} distant from two of the square's other vertices, and {{radic|4}} distant from its opposite vertex. The other four vertices of the 16-cell (also {{radic|2}} distant) are the vertices of the square's completely orthogonal square.{{Efn|name=Clifford parallel great squares}} Each 16-cell vertex is a vertex of ''three'' orthogonal great squares which intersect there. Each great square has a different ''completely'' orthogonal great square. Thus there are three great squares completely orthogonal to each vertex: squares that the vertex is not part of.{{Efn|The three ''incompletely'' orthogonal great squares which intersect at each vertex of the 16-cell form the vertex's octahedral [[W:Vertex figure|vertex figure]].{{Efn|name=octahedral pyramid}} Any two of them, together with the completely orthogonal square of the third, also form an octahedron: a central octahedral hyperplane.{{Efn|Three great squares meet at each vertex (and at its opposite vertex) in the 16-cell. Each of them has a different completely orthogonal square. Thus there are three great squares completely orthogonal to each vertex and its opposite vertex (each axis). They form an octahedron (a central hyperplane). Every axis line in the 16-cell is completely orthogonal to a central octahedron hyperplane, as every great square plane is completely orthogonal to another great square plane.{{Efn|name=Six orthogonal planes of the Cartesian basis}} The axis and the octahedron intersect only at one point (the center of the 16-cell), as each pair of completely orthogonal great squares intersects only at one point (the center of the 16-cell). Each central octahedron is also the octahedral vertex figure of two of the eight vertices: the two on its completely orthogonal axis.|name=octahedral hyperplanes}} In the 16-cell, each octahedral vertex figure is also a central octahedral hyperplane.|name=completely orthogonal great squares}}|name=vertex and central octahedra}} Completely orthogonal great squares have disjoint vertices: 4 of the 16-cell's 8 vertices rotate in one plane, and the other 4 rotate independently in the completely orthogonal plane.{{Efn|Completely orthogonal great squares are non-intersecting and rotate independently because the great circles on which their vertices lie are [[W:Clifford parallel|Clifford parallel]].{{Efn|[[W:Clifford parallel|Clifford parallel]]s are non-intersecting curved lines that are parallel in the sense that the perpendicular (shortest) distance between them is the same at each point.{{Sfn|Tyrrell &amp; Semple|1971|loc=§&amp;nbsp;3. Clifford's original definition of parallelism|pp=5-6}} A double helix is an example of Clifford parallelism in ordinary 3-dimensional Euclidean space. In 4-space Clifford parallels occur as geodesic great circles on the [[W:3-sphere|3-sphere]].{{Sfn|Kim|Rote|2016|pp=7-10|loc=§&amp;nbsp;6. Angles between two Planes in 4-Space}} In the 16-cell the corresponding vertices of completely orthogonal great circle squares are all {{radic|2}} apart, so these squares are Clifford parallel polygons.{{Efn|name=completely orthogonal Clifford parallels are special}} Note that only the vertices of the great squares (the points on the great circle) are {{radic|2}} apart; points on the edges of the squares (on chords of the circle) are closer together.|name=Clifford parallels}} They are {{radic|2}} apart at each pair of nearest vertices (and in the 16-cell ''all'' the pairs except antipodal pairs are nearest). The two squares cannot intersect at all because they lie in planes which intersect at only one point: the center of the 16-cell.{{Efn|name=Six orthogonal planes of the Cartesian basis}} Because they are perpendicular and share a common center, the two squares are obviously not parallel and separate in the usual way of parallel squares in 3 dimensions; rather they are connected like adjacent square links in a chain, each passing through the other without intersecting at any points, forming a [[W:Hopf link|Hopf link]].|name=Clifford parallel great squares}}

In 2 or 3 dimensions a rotation is characterized by a single plane of rotation; this kind of rotation taking place in 4-space is called a [[W:Rotations in 4-dimensional Euclidean space#Simple rotations|simple rotation]], in which only one of the two completely orthogonal planes rotates (the angle of rotation in the other plane is 0). In the 16-cell, a simple rotation in one of the 6 orthogonal planes moves only 4 of the 8 vertices; the other 4 remain fixed. (In the simple rotation animation above, all 8 vertices move because the plane of rotation is not one of the 6 orthogonal basis planes.)

In a [[W:Rotations in 4-dimensional Euclidean space#Double rotations|double rotation]] both sets of 4 vertices move, but independently: the angles of rotation may be different in the 2 completely orthogonal planes. If the two angles happen to be the same, a maximally symmetric [[W:Rotations in 4-dimensional Euclidean space#Isoclinic rotations|isoclinic rotation]] takes place.{{Efn|In an isoclinic rotation, all 6 orthogonal planes are displaced in two orthogonal directions at once: they are rotated by the angle, and at the same time they are tilted ''sideways'' by that same angle. An isoclinic displacement (also known as a [[W:William Kingdon Clifford|Clifford]] displacement) is 4-dimensionally diagonal. Points are displaced an equal distance in four orthogonal directions at once, and displaced a total [[W:Pythagorean distance#Higher dimensions|Pythagorean distance]] equal to the square root of four times the square of that distance (which is two times that distance). All vertices of a regular 4-polytope are displaced to a vertex at least two edge lengths away. For example, when the unit-radius 16-cell rotates isoclinically 90° in a great square invariant plane, it also rotates 90° in the completely orthogonal great square invariant plane.{{Efn||name=Six orthogonal planes of the Cartesian basis}} The great square plane tilts sideways 90° to occupy its completely orthogonal plane. (By isoclinic symmetry, ''every'' great square plane rotates 90° ''and'' tilts sideways 90° into its completely orthogonal plane.) Each vertex (in every great square) is displaced to its antipodal vertex, at a distance of {{radic|1}} in each of four orthogonal directions, a total distance of {{radic|4}}. The original and displaced vertex are two edge lengths apart by three{{Efn|There are six different two-edge paths connecting a pair of antipodal vertices along the edges of a great square. The left isoclinic rotation runs diagonally between three of them, and the right isoclinic rotation runs diagonally between the other three. These diagonals are the straight lines (geodesics) connecting opposite vertices of face-bonded tetrahedral cells in the left-handed [[#Helical construction|eight-cell ring]] and the right-handed eight-cell ring, respectively.}} different paths along two edges of a great square. But the ''isocline'' (the helical arc the vertex follows during the isoclinic rotation) does not run along edges: it runs ''between'' these different edge-paths diagonally, on a geodesic (shortest arc) between the original and displaced vertices.{{Efn|name=isocline}} This isoclinic geodesic arc is not a segment of an ordinary great circle; it does not lie in the plane of any great square. It is a helical 180° arc that bends in a circle in two completely orthogonal planes at once. This [[W:Möbius loop|Möbius circle]] does not lie in any one great circle plane, or intersect any vertices of the 16-cell between the original and the displaced vertex.{{Efn|name=Möbius circle}}|name=isoclinic rotation}} In the 16-cell an isoclinic rotation by 90 degrees of any pair of completely orthogonal square planes takes every square plane to its completely orthogonal square plane.{{Efn|The 90 degree isoclinic rotation of two completely orthogonal planes takes them to each other. In such a rotation of a rigid 16-cell, all 6 orthogonal planes rotate by 90 degrees, and also tilt sideways by 90 degrees to their completely orthogonal (Clifford parallel){{Efn|name=Clifford parallels}} plane.{{Sfn|Kim|Rote|2016|pp=8-10|loc=Relations to Clifford Parallelism}} The corresponding vertices of the two completely orthogonal great squares are {{radic|4}} (180°) apart; the great squares (Clifford parallel polytopes) are {{radic|4}} (180°) apart; but the two completely orthogonal ''planes'' are 90° apart, in the ''two'' orthogonal angles that separate them. If the isoclinic rotation is continued through another 90°, each vertex completes a 360° rotation and each great square returns to its original plane, but in a different orientation (axes swapped): it has been turned &quot;upside down&quot; on the surface of the 16-cell (which is now &quot;inside out&quot;). Continuing through a second 360° isoclinic rotation (through four 90° by 90° isoclinic steps, a 720° rotation) returns everything to its original place and orientation.|name=exchange of completely orthogonal planes}}

=== Constructions ===

==== Octahedral dipyramid ====
{|class=&quot;wikitable floatright&quot;
!Octahedron &lt;math&gt;\beta_3&lt;/math&gt;
!16-cell &lt;math&gt;\beta_4&lt;/math&gt;
|-
|[[File:3-cube t2.svg|160px]]
|[[File:4-demicube t0 D4.svg|160px]]
|-
|colspan=2|Orthogonal projections to skew hexagon hyperplane
|}
The simplest construction of the 16-cell is on the 3-dimensional cross polytope, the [[W:Octahedron|octahedron]]. The octahedron has 3 perpendicular axes and 6 vertices in 3 opposite pairs (its [[W:Petrie polygon|Petrie polygon]] is the [[W:Hexagon|hexagon]]). Add another pair of vertices, on a fourth axis perpendicular to all 3 of the other axes. Connect each new vertex to all 6 of the original vertices, adding 12 new edges. This raises two [[W:Octahedral pyramid|octahedral pyramid]]s on a shared octahedron base that lies in the 16-cell's central hyperplane.{{Sfn|Coxeter|1973|p=121|loc=§&amp;nbsp;7.21. See illustration Fig 7.2&lt;small&gt;B&lt;/small&gt;|ps=: &quot;&lt;math&gt;\beta_4&lt;/math&gt; is a four-dimensional dipyramid based on &lt;math&gt;\beta_3&lt;/math&gt; (with its two apices in opposite directions along the fourth dimension).&quot;}}

[[File:stereographic_polytope_16cell_colour.png|thumb|[[W:Stereographic projection|Stereographic projection]] of the 16-cell's 6 orthogonal central squares onto their great circles. Each circle is divided into 4 arc-edges at the intersections where 3 circles cross perpendicularly. Notice that each circle has one Clifford parallel circle that it does ''not'' intersect. Those two circles pass through each other like adjacent links in a chain.]]The octahedron that the construction starts with has three perpendicular intersecting squares (which appear as rectangles in the hexagonal projections). Each square intersects with each of the other squares at two opposite vertices, with ''two'' of the squares crossing at each vertex. Then two more points are added in the fourth dimension (above and below the 3-dimensional hyperplane). These new vertices are connected to all the octahedron's vertices, creating 12 new edges and ''three more squares'' (which appear edge-on as the 3 ''diameters'' of the hexagon in the projection), and three more octahedra.{{Efn|name=octahedral hyperplanes}}

Something unprecedented has also been created. Notice that each square no longer intersects with ''all'' of the other squares: it does intersect with four of them (with ''three'' of the squares crossing at each vertex now), but each square has ''one'' other square with which it shares ''no'' vertices: it is not directly connected to that square at all. These two ''separate'' perpendicular squares (there are three pairs of them) are like the opposite edges of a [[W:Tetrahedron|tetrahedron]]: perpendicular, but non-intersecting. They lie opposite each other (parallel in some sense), and they don't touch, but they also pass through each other like two perpendicular links in a chain (but unlike links in a chain they have a common center). They are an example of '''''Clifford parallels''''', and the 16-cell is the simplest regular polytope in which they occur. [[W:William Kingdon Clifford|Clifford]] parallelism{{Efn|name=Clifford parallels}} of objects of more than one dimension (more than just curved ''lines'') emerges here and occurs in all the subsequent 4-dimensional regular polytopes, where it can be seen as the defining relationship ''among'' disjoint concentric regular 4-polytopes and their corresponding parts. It can occur between congruent (similar) polytopes of 2 or more dimensions.{{Sfn|Tyrrell &amp; Semple|1971}} For example, as noted [[#Geometry|above]] all the subsequent convex regular 4-polytopes are compounds of multiple 16-cells; those 16-cells are [[24-cell#Clifford parallel polytopes|Clifford parallel polytopes]].

==== Tetrahedral constructions ====
{| class=&quot;wikitable&quot; width=480
|- align=center valign=top
|[[File:16-cell net.png|180px|]]
|[[File:16-cell nets.png|180px]]
|}

The 16-cell has two [[W:Wythoff construction|Wythoff construction]]s from regular tetrahedra, a regular form and alternated form, shown here as [[W:Net (polyhedron)|nets]], the second represented by tetrahedral cells of two alternating colors. The alternated form is a [[#Symmetry constructions|lower symmetry construction]] of the 16-cell called the [[W:Demitesseract|demitesseract]].

Wythoff's construction replicates the 16-cell's [[5-cell#Orthoschemes|characteristic 5-cell]] in a [[W:Kaleidoscope|kaleidoscope]] of mirrors. Every regular 4-polytope has its characteristic 4-orthoscheme, an [[5-cell#Irregular 5-cells|irregular 5-cell]].{{Efn|An [[W:Orthoscheme|orthoscheme]] is a [[W:Chiral|chiral]] irregular [[W:simplex|simplex]] with [[W:Right triangle|right triangle]] faces that is characteristic of some polytope if it will exactly fill that polytope with the reflections of itself in its own [[W:Facet (geometry)|facets]] (its ''mirror walls''). Every regular polytope can be dissected radially into instances of its [[W:Orthoscheme#Characteristic simplex of the general regular polytope|characteristic orthoscheme]] surrounding its center. The characteristic orthoscheme has the shape described by the same [[W:Coxeter-Dynkin diagram|Coxeter-Dynkin diagram]] as the regular polytope without the ''generating point'' ring.|name=characteristic orthoscheme}} There are three regular 4-polytopes with tetrahedral cells: the [[5-cell]], the 16-cell, and the [[600-cell]]. Although all are bounded by ''regular'' tetrahedron cells, their characteristic 5-cells (4-orthoschemes) are different [[5-cell#Isometries|tetrahedral pyramids]], all based on the same characteristic ''irregular'' tetrahedron. They share the same [[W:Tetrahedron#Orthoschemes|characteristic tetrahedron]] (3-orthoscheme) and characteristic [[W:Right triangle|right triangle]] (2-orthoscheme) because they have the same kind of cell.{{Efn|A regular polytope of dimension ''k'' has a characteristic ''k''-orthoscheme, and also a characteristic (''k''-1)-orthoscheme. A regular 4-polytope has a characteristic 5-cell (4-orthoscheme) into which it is subdivided by its (3-dimensional) hyperplanes of symmetry, and also a characteristic tetrahedron (3-orthoscheme) into which its surface is subdivided by its cells' (2-dimensional) planes of symmetry. After subdividing its (3-dimensional) surface into characteristic tetrahedra surrounding each cell center, its (4-dimensional) interior can be subdivided into characteristic 5-cells by adding radii joining the vertices of the surface characteristic tetrahedra to the 4-polytope's center.{{Sfn|Coxeter|1973|p=130|loc=§&amp;nbsp;7.6|ps=; &quot;simplicial subdivision&quot;.}} The interior tetrahedra and triangles thus formed will also be orthoschemes.}}

{| class=&quot;wikitable floatright&quot;
!colspan=6|Characteristics of the 16-cell{{Sfn|Coxeter|1973|pp=292-293|loc=Table I(ii); &quot;16-cell, 𝛽&lt;sub&gt;4&lt;/sub&gt;&quot;}}
|-
!align=right|
!align=center|edge{{Sfn|Coxeter|1973|p=139|loc=§&amp;nbsp;7.9 The characteristic simplex}}
!colspan=2 align=center|arc
!colspan=2 align=center|dihedral{{Sfn|Coxeter|1973|p=290|loc=Table I(ii); &quot;dihedral angles&quot;}}
|-
!align=right|𝒍
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2} \approx 1.414&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;90°&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\tfrac{\pi}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;120°&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\tfrac{2\pi}{3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|
|
|
|
|
|-
!align=right|𝟀
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\tfrac{2}{3}} \approx 0.816&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;60″&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\tfrac{\pi}{3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;60°&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\tfrac{\pi}{3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
!align=right|𝝉{{Efn|{{Harv|Coxeter|1973}} uses the greek letter 𝝓 (phi) to represent one of the three ''characteristic angles'' 𝟀, 𝝓, 𝟁 of a regular polytope. Because 𝝓 is commonly used to represent the [[W:Golden ratio|golden ratio]] constant ≈ 1.618, for which Coxeter uses 𝝉 (tau), we reverse Coxeter's conventions, and use 𝝉 to represent the characteristic angle.|name=reversed greek symbols}}
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\tfrac{1}{2}} \approx 0.707&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;45″&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\tfrac{\pi}{4}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;45°&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\tfrac{\pi}{4}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
!align=right|𝟁
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\tfrac{1}{6}} \approx 0.408&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;30″&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\tfrac{\pi}{6}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;60°&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\tfrac{\pi}{3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|
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|-
!align=right|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;_0R^3/l&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\tfrac{3}{4}} \approx 0.866&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;60°&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\tfrac{\pi}{3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;90°&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\tfrac{\pi}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
!align=right|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;_1R^3/l&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\tfrac{1}{4}} = 0.5&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;45°&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\tfrac{\pi}{4}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;90°&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\tfrac{\pi}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
!align=right|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;_2R^3/l&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\tfrac{1}{12}} \approx 0.289&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;30°&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\tfrac{\pi}{6}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;90°&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\tfrac{\pi}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
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|-
!align=right|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;_0R^4/l&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|
|align=center|
|align=center|
|align=center|
|-
!align=right|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;_1R^4/l&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\tfrac{1}{2}} \approx 0.707&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|
|align=center|
|align=center|
|align=center|
|-
!align=right|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;_2R^4/l&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\tfrac{1}{3}} \approx 0.577&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|
|align=center|
|align=center|
|align=center|
|-
!align=right|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;_3R^4/l&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\tfrac{1}{4}} = 0.5&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|
|align=center|
|align=center|
|align=center|
|}
The '''characteristic 5-cell of the regular 16-cell''' is represented by the [[W:Coxeter-Dynkin diagram|Coxeter-Dynkin diagram]] {{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node|3|node|3|node|4|node}}, which can be read as a list of the dihedral angles between its mirror facets. It is an irregular [[W:Pyramid (mathematics)#Polyhedral pyramid|tetrahedral pyramid]] based on the [[W:Tetrahedron#Orthoschemes|characteristic tetrahedron of the regular tetrahedron]]. The regular 16-cell is subdivided by its symmetry hyperplanes into 384 instances of its characteristic 5-cell that all meet at its center.

The characteristic 5-cell (4-orthoscheme) has four more edges than its base characteristic tetrahedron (3-orthoscheme), joining the four vertices of the base to its apex (the fifth vertex of the 4-orthoscheme, at the center of the regular 16-cell).{{Efn|The four edges of each 4-orthoscheme which meet at the center of a regular 4-polytope are of unequal length, because they are the four characteristic radii of the regular 4-polytope: a vertex radius, an edge center radius, a face center radius, and a cell center radius. The five vertices of the 4-orthoscheme always include one regular 4-polytope vertex, one regular 4-polytope edge center, one regular 4-polytope face center, one regular 4-polytope cell center, and the regular 4-polytope center. Those five vertices (in that order) comprise a path along four mutually perpendicular edges (that makes three right angle turns), the characteristic feature of a 4-orthoscheme. The 4-orthoscheme has five dissimilar 3-orthoscheme facets.|name=characteristic radii}} If the regular 16-cell has unit radius edge and edge length 𝒍 = &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;, its characteristic 5-cell's ten edges have lengths &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\tfrac{2}{3}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;, &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\tfrac{1}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;, &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\tfrac{1}{6}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; around its exterior right-triangle face (the edges opposite the ''characteristic angles'' 𝟀, 𝝉, 𝟁),{{Efn|name=reversed greek symbols}} plus &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\tfrac{3}{4}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;, &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\tfrac{1}{4}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;, &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\tfrac{1}{12}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; (the other three edges of the exterior 3-orthoscheme facet the characteristic tetrahedron, which are the ''characteristic radii'' of the regular tetrahedron), plus &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;, &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\tfrac{1}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;, &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\tfrac{1}{3}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;, &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\tfrac{1}{4}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; (edges which are the characteristic radii of the regular 16-cell). The 4-edge path along orthogonal edges of the orthoscheme is &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\tfrac{1}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;, &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\tfrac{1}{6}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;, &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\tfrac{1}{4}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;, &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\tfrac{1}{4}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;, first from a 16-cell vertex to a 16-cell edge center, then turning 90° to a 16-cell face center, then turning 90° to a 16-cell tetrahedral cell center, then turning 90° to the 16-cell center.

==== Helical construction ====
[[File:Eight face-bonded tetrahedra.jpg|thumb|A 4-dimensional ring of 8 face-bonded tetrahedra, seen in the [[W:Boerdijk–Coxeter helix|Boerdijk–Coxeter helix]], bounded by three eight-edge circular paths of different colors, cut and laid out flat in 3-dimensional space. It contains an ''isocline'' axis (not shown), a helical circle of circumference 4𝝅 that twists through all four dimensions and visits all 8 vertices.{{Efn|name=isocline}} The two blue-blue-yellow triangles at either end of the cut ring are the same object.]]
[[File:16-cell 8-ring net4.png|thumb|Net and orthogonal projection]]

A 16-cell can be constructed (three different ways) from two [[W:Boerdijk–Coxeter helix|Boerdijk–Coxeter helix]]es of eight chained tetrahedra, each bent in the fourth dimension into a ring.{{Sfn|Coxeter|1970|loc=Table 2: Reflexible honeycombs and their groups|p=45|ps=; Honeycomb [3,3,4]&lt;sub&gt;4&lt;/sub&gt; is a tiling of the 3-sphere by 2 rings of 8 tetrahedral cells.}}{{Sfn|Banchoff|2013}} The two circular helixes share the same 8 vertices and 24 edges, but their tetrahedra are disjoint. The helixes spiral around each other, nest into each other and pass through each other forming a [[W:Hopf link|Hopf link]]. 16 of the 32 triangle faces can be seen in a 2D net within a [[W:Triangular tiling|triangular tiling]], with 6 triangles around every vertex. The [[W:Petrie polygon|Petrie polygon]] of the 16-cell is a skew octagon, visible as the purple edges in the octagon orthogonal projection, and as the light blue edges in the tetrahedral helix. Each eight-cell ring of tetrahedra actually contains three such skew [[W:Octagram|octagram]]s of different colors, eight-edge circular paths that wind twice around the 16-cell on every third vertex of the octagram. The orange and yellow edges are two four-edge halves of one skew octagram, which join their ends to form a [[W:Möbius strip|Möbius strip]].

Thus the 16-cell can be decomposed into two cell-disjoint circular chains of eight tetrahedrons each, four edges long, one spiraling to the right (clockwise) and the other spiraling to the left (counterclockwise). The left-handed and right-handed cell rings fit together, nesting into each other and entirely filling the 16-cell, even though they are of opposite chirality. This decomposition can be seen in a 4-4 [[W:Duoantiprism|duoantiprism]] construction of the 16-cell: {{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_h|2x|node_h|2x|node_h|2x|node_h}} or {{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node|4|node_h|2x|node_h|4|node}}, [[W:Schläfli symbol|Schläfli symbol]] {2}⨂{2} or s{2}s{2}, [[W:Coxeter notation|symmetry]] [4,2&lt;sup&gt;+&lt;/sup&gt;,4], order 64.

Three eight-edge paths (of different colors) spiral along each eight-cell ring, making 90° angles at each vertex. (In the Boerdijk–Coxeter helix before it is bent into a ring, the angles in different paths vary, but are not 90°.) Three paths (with three different colors and apparent angles) pass through each vertex. When the helix is bent into a ring, the segments of each eight-edge path (of various lengths) join their ends, forming a Möbius strip eight edges long along its single-sided circumference of 4𝝅, and one edge wide.{{Efn|name=Möbius circle}} The six four-edge halves of the three eight-edge paths each make four 90° angles, but they are ''not'' the six orthogonal great squares: they are open-ended squares, four-edge 360° helices whose open ends are [[W:Antipodal point|antipodal]] vertices. The four edges come from four different great squares, and are mutually orthogonal. Combined end-to-end in pairs of the same [[W:Chirality|chirality]], the six four-edge paths make three eight-edge Möbius loops, [[W:Helix|helical]] octagrams. Each octagram is both a [[W:Petrie polygon|Petrie polygon]] of the 16-cell, and the helical track along which all eight vertices rotate together, in one of the 16-cell's distinct isoclinic [[#Rotations|rotations]].{{Efn|The 16-cell can be constructed from two cell-disjoint eight-cell rings in three different ways; it has three orientations of its pair of rings. Each orientation &quot;contains&quot; a distinct left-right pair of isoclinic rotations, and also a pair of completely orthogonal great squares (Clifford parallel fibers), so each orientation is a discrete [[W:Hopf fibration|fibration]] of the 16-cell. Each eight-cell ring contains three axial octagrams which have different orientations (they exchange roles) in the three discrete fibrations and six distinct isoclinic rotations (three left and three right) through the cell rings. Three octagrams (of different colors) can be seen in the illustration of a single cell ring, one in the role of Petrie polygon, one as the right isocline, and one as the left isocline. Because each octagram plays three roles, there are exactly six distinct isoclines in the 16-cell, not 18.|name=only one disjoint pair of eight-cell rings}}

{| class=&quot;wikitable&quot; width=610
!colspan=5|Five ways of looking at the same [[W:Skew polygon|skew]] [[W:Octagram|octagram]]{{Efn|All five views are the same orthogonal projection of the 16-cell into the same plane (a circular cross-section of the eight-cell ring cylinder), looking along the central axis of the cut ring cylinder pictured above, from one end of the cylinder. The only difference is which {{radic|2}} edges and {{radic|4}} chords are ''omitted'' for focus. The different colors of {{radic|2}} edges appear to be of different lengths because they are oblique to the viewer at different angles. Vertices are numbered 1 (top) through 8 in counterclockwise order.}}
|-
![[#Rotations|Edge path]]
![[W:Petrie polygon#The Petrie polygon of regular polychora (4-polytopes)|Petrie polygon]]{{Sfn|Coxeter|1973|pp=292-293|loc=Table I(ii); 24-cell ''h&lt;sub&gt;1&lt;/sub&gt;''}}
!16-cell
![[W:Hopf fibration|Discrete fibration]]
![[#Coordinates|Diameter chords]]
|-
![[W:Octagram|Octagram]]&lt;sub&gt;{8/3}&lt;/sub&gt;{{Sfn|Coxeter|1973|pp=292-293|loc=Table I(ii); 24-cell ''h&lt;sub&gt;2&lt;/sub&gt;''}}
![[W:Petrie polygon#The Petrie polygon of regular polychora (4-polytopes)|Octagram]]&lt;sub&gt;{8/1}&lt;/sub&gt;
![[W:Coxeter element#Coxeter plane|Coxeter plane]] [[W:B4 polytope|B&lt;sub&gt;4&lt;/sub&gt;]]
![[W:Octagram#Star polygon compounds|Octagram]]&lt;sub&gt;{8/2}=2{4}&lt;/sub&gt;
![[W:Octagram#Star polygon compounds|Octagram]]&lt;sub&gt;{8/4}=4{2}&lt;/sub&gt;
|-
|align=center|[[File:16-cell skew octagram (8-3).png|120px]]
|align=center|[[File:16-cell skew octagram (8).png|120px]]
|align=center|[[File:16-cell skew octagram.png|120px]]
|align=center|[[File:16-cell skew octagram 2(4).png|120px]]
|align=center|[[File:16-cell skew octagram 4(2).png|120px]]
|-
|The eight {{radic|2}} chords of the edge-path of an isocline.{{Efn|name=isocline curve}}
|Skew [[W:Octagon|octagon]] of eight {{radic|2}} edges. The 16-cell has 3 of these 8-vertex circuits.
|All 24 {{radic|2}} edges and the four {{radic|4}} orthogonal axes.
|Two completely orthogonal (disjoint) great squares of {{radic|2}} edges.{{Efn|name=Clifford parallel great squares}}
|The four {{radic|4}} chords of an isocline. Every fourth isocline vertex is joined to its antipodal vertex by a 16-cell axis.{{Efn|Each isocline has the eight continuous {{radic|2}} chords of its octagram&lt;sub&gt;{8/3}&lt;/sub&gt; edge-path, and also four discontinuous {{radic|4}} diameter chords that connect every ''fourth'' vertex on the octagram but do not connect to each other. Antipodal vertices also have a twisted continuous path of four mutually orthogonal {{radic|2}} edges connecting them. Between antipodal vertices, the isocline curves smoothly around in a helix over the four {{radic|2}} chords of its edge-path, hitting the three intervening vertices. Each {{radic|2}} edge is an edge of a great square, that is completely orthogonal to another great square, in which the {{radic|4}} chord is a diagonal.|name=isocline curve}}
|}
Each eight-edge helix is a [[W:Skew polygon|skew]] [[W:Octagram|octagram]]&lt;sub&gt;{8/3}&lt;/sub&gt; that [[W:Winding number|winds three times]] around the 16-cell and visits every vertex before closing into a loop. Its eight {{radic|2}} edges are chords of an ''isocline'', a helical geodesic on which the 8 vertices circle during an isoclinic rotation.{{Efn|An isocline is a circle of special kind corresponding to a pair of [[W:Villarceau circle|Villarceau circle]]s linked in a [[W:Möbius loop|Möbius loop]]. It curves through four dimensions instead of just two. All ordinary circles have a 2𝝅 circumference, but the 16-cell's isocline is a circle with an 4𝝅 circumference (over eight 90° chords). An isocline is a circle that does not lie in a plane, but to avoid confusion we always refer to it as an ''isocline'' and reserve the term ''circle'' for an ordinary circle in the plane.|name=Möbius circle}} All eight 16-cell vertices are {{radic|2}} apart except for opposite (antipodal) vertices, which are {{radic|4}} apart. A vertex moving on the isocline visits three other vertices that are {{radic|2}} apart before reaching the fourth vertex that is {{radic|4}} away.{{Efn|In the 16-cell, two antipodal vertices are opposite vertices of two face-bonded tetrahedral cells. The two antipodal vertices are connected by (three different) two-edge great circle paths along edges of the tetrahedral cells, by various three-edge paths, and by four-edge paths on isoclines and Petrie polygons. {{Efn|name=Möbius circle}}|name=isocline}}

The eight-cell ring is [[W:Chiral|chiral]]: there is a right-handed form which spirals clockwise, and a left-handed form which spirals counterclockwise. The 16-cell contains one of each, so it also contains a left and a right isocline; the isocline is the circular axis around which the eight-cell ring twists. Each isocline visits all eight vertices of the 16-cell.{{Efn|In the 16-cell each ''single'' isocline winds through all 8 vertices: an entire [[W:Hopf fibration|fibration]] of two completely orthogonal great squares.{{Efn|name=completely orthogonal Clifford parallels are special}} The 5-cell and the 16-cell are the only regular 4-polytopes where each discrete fibration has just one isocline fiber.{{Efn|Except in the 5-cell and 16-cell,{{Efn|name=two special cases}} a pair of left and right isocline circles have disjoint vertices: the left and right isocline helices are non-intersecting parallels but counter-rotating, forming a special kind of double helix which cannot occur in three dimensions (where counter-rotating helices of the same radius must intersect).|name=counter-rotating double helix}}|name=each 16-cell isocline reaches all 8 vertices}} Each eight-cell ring contains half of the 16 cells, but all 8 vertices; the two rings share the vertices, as they nest into each other and fit together. They also share the 24 edges, though left and right octagram helices are different eight-edge paths.{{Efn|The left and right isoclines intersect each other at every vertex. They are different sequences of the same set of 8 vertices. With respect only to the set of 4 vertex pairs which are {{radic|2}} apart, they can be considered to be Clifford parallel. With respect only to the set of 4 vertex pairs which are {{radic|4}} apart, they can be considered to be completely orthogonal.{{Efn|name=completely orthogonal Clifford parallels are special}}}}

Because there are three pairs of completely orthogonal great squares,{{Efn|name=Six orthogonal planes of the Cartesian basis}} there are three congruent ways to compose a 16-cell from two eight-cell rings. The 16-cell contains three left-right pairs of eight-cell rings in different orientations, with each cell ring containing its axial isocline.{{Efn|name=only one disjoint pair of eight-cell rings}} Each left-right pair of isoclines is the track of a left-right pair of distinct isoclinic rotations: the rotations in one pair of completely orthogonal invariant planes of rotation.{{Efn|name=Clifford parallel great squares}} At each vertex, there are three great squares and six octagram isoclines that cross at the vertex and share a 16-cell axis chord.{{Efn|This is atypical for isoclinic rotations generally; normally both the left and right isoclines do not occur at the same vertex: there are two disjoint sets of vertices reachable only by the left or right rotation respectively.{{Efn|name=counter-rotating double helix}} The left and right isoclines of the 16-cell form a very special double helix: unusual not just because it is circular, but because its different left and right helices twist around each other through the ''same set'' of antipodal vertices,{{Efn|name=each 16-cell isocline reaches all 8 vertices}} not through the two ''disjoint subsets'' of antipodal vertices, as the isocline pairs do in most isoclinic rotations found in nature.{{Efn|For another example of the left and right isoclines of a rotation visiting the same set of vertices, see the [[5-cell#Geodesics and rotations|characteristic isoclinic rotation of the 5-cell]]. Although in these two special cases left and right isoclines of the same rotation visit the same set of vertices, they still take very different rotational paths because they visit the same vertices in different sequences.|name=two special cases}} Isoclinic rotations in completely orthogonal invariant planes are special.{{Efn|Each great square plane is isoclinic (Clifford parallel) to five other square planes but completely orthogonal to only one of them. Every pair of completely orthogonal planes has Clifford parallel great circles, but not all Clifford parallel great circles are orthogonal. There is also another way in which completely orthogonal planes are in a distinguished category of Clifford parallel planes: they are not [[W:Chiral|chiral]]. A pair of isoclinic (Clifford parallel) planes is either a ''left pair'' or a ''right pair'' unless they are separated by two angles of 90° (completely orthogonal planes) or 0° (coincident planes).{{Sfn|Kim|Rote|2016|pp=7-8|loc=§&amp;nbsp;6 Angles between two Planes in 4-Space|ps=; Left and Right Pairs of Isoclinic Planes.}} Most isoclinic planes are brought together only by a left isoclinic rotation or a right isoclinic rotation, respectively. Completely orthogonal planes are special: the pair of planes is both a left and a right pair, so either a left or a right isoclinic rotation will bring them together. Because planes separated by a 90° isoclinic rotation are 180° apart, the plane to the ''left'' and the plane to the ''right'' are the same plane.{{Efn|name=exchange of completely orthogonal planes}}|name=completely orthogonal Clifford parallels are special}} To see ''how'' and ''why'' they are special, visualize two completely orthogonal invariant planes of rotation, each rotating by some rotation angle ''and'' tilting sideways by the same rotation angle into a different plane entirely.{{Efn|name=isoclinic rotation}} ''Only when the rotation angle is 90°,'' that different plane in which the tilting invariant plane lands will be the completely orthogonal invariant plane itself. The destination plane of the rotation ''is'' the completely orthogonal invariant plane. The 90° isoclinic rotation is the only rotation which takes the completely orthogonal invariant planes to each other.{{Efn|name=exchange of completely orthogonal planes}} This reciprocity is the reason both left and right rotations go to the same place.}}

=== As a configuration ===
This [[W:Regular 4-polytope#As configurations|configuration matrix]] represents the 16-cell. The rows and columns correspond to vertices, edges, faces, and cells. The diagonal numbers say how many of each element occur in the whole 16-cell. The nondiagonal numbers say how many of the column's element occur in or at the row's element.

&lt;math&gt;\begin{bmatrix}\begin{matrix}8 &amp; 6 &amp; 12 &amp; 8 \\ 2 &amp; 24 &amp; 4 &amp; 4 \\ 3 &amp; 3 &amp; 32 &amp; 2 \\ 4 &amp; 6 &amp; 4 &amp; 16 \end{matrix}\end{bmatrix}&lt;/math&gt;

== Tessellations ==
One can [[W:Tessellation|tessellate]] 4-dimensional [[W:Euclidean space|Euclidean space]] by regular 16-cells. This is called the [[W:16-cell honeycomb|16-cell honeycomb]] and has [[W:Schläfli symbol|Schläfli symbol]] {3,3,4,3}. Hence, the 16-cell has a [[W:Dihedral angle|dihedral angle]] of 120°.{{sfn|Coxeter|1973|p=293}} Each 16-cell has 16 neighbors with which it shares a tetrahedron, 24 neighbors with which it shares only an edge, and 72 neighbors with which it shares only a single point. Twenty-four 16-cells meet at any given vertex in this tessellation.

The dual tessellation, the [[W:24-cell honeycomb|24-cell honeycomb]], {3,4,3,3}, is made of regular [[24-cell]]s. Together with the [[W:Tesseractic honeycomb|tesseractic honeycomb]] {4,3,3,4} these are the only three [[W:List of regular polytopes#Tessellations of Euclidean 4-space|regular tessellations]] of '''R'''&lt;sup&gt;4&lt;/sup&gt;.

== Projections ==
{{B4 Coxeter plane graphs|t3|150}}

[[File:Orthogonal projection envelopes 16-cell.png|thumb|Projection envelopes of the 16-cell. (Each cell is drawn with different color faces, inverted cells are undrawn)]]

The cell-first parallel projection of the 16-cell into 3-space has a [[W:cube|cubical]] envelope. The closest and farthest cells are projected to inscribed tetrahedra within the cube, corresponding with the two possible ways to inscribe a regular tetrahedron in a cube. Surrounding each of these tetrahedra are 4 other (non-regular) tetrahedral volumes that are the images of the 4 surrounding tetrahedral cells, filling up the space between the inscribed tetrahedron and the cube. The remaining 6 cells are projected onto the square faces of the cube. In this projection of the 16-cell, all its edges lie on the faces of the cubical envelope.

The cell-first perspective projection of the 16-cell into 3-space has a [[W:triakis tetrahedron|triakis tetrahedral]] envelope. The layout of the cells within this envelope are analogous to that of the cell-first parallel projection.

The vertex-first parallel [[W:Graphical projection|projection]] of the 16-cell into 3-space has an [[W:octahedron|octahedral]] [[W:projection envelope|envelope]]. This octahedron can be divided into 8 tetrahedral volumes, by cutting along the coordinate planes. Each of these volumes is the image of a pair of cells in the 16-cell. The closest vertex of the 16-cell to the viewer projects onto the center of the octahedron.

Finally the edge-first parallel projection has a shortened octahedral envelope, and the face-first parallel projection has a [[W:hexagonal bipyramid]]al envelope.

== 4 sphere Venn diagram ==
A 3-dimensional projection of the 16-cell and 4 intersecting spheres (a [[W:Venn diagram|Venn diagram]] of 4 sets) are [[W:topology|topologically]] equivalent.

{|
|-
|
{{multiple image
 | align = left  | total_width = 700
 | image1 = 4 spheres, cell 00, solid.png
 | image2 = 4 spheres, weight 1, solid.png
 | image3 = 4 spheres, weight 2, solid.png
 | image4 = 4 spheres, weight 3, solid.png
 | image5 = 4 spheres, cell 15, solid.png
 | footer = The 16 cells ordered by number of intersecting spheres (from 0 to 4) &amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp; &lt;small&gt;(see all [[commons:Category:Venn diagrams rgby; single cells|cells]] and [[v:Tesseract and 16-cell faces|''k''-faces]])&lt;/small&gt;
}}
|
{{multiple image
 | align = right  | total_width = 290
 | image1 = 4 spheres as rings, vertical.png
 | image2 = Stereographic polytope 16cell.png
 | footer = 4 sphere Venn diagram and 16-cell projection in the same orientation
}}
|}

== Symmetry constructions ==
The 16-cell's [[W:Coxeter group|symmetry group]] is denoted [[W:B4 polytope|B&lt;sub&gt;4&lt;/sub&gt;]].

There is a lower symmetry form of the ''16-cell'', called a '''demitesseract''' or '''4-demicube''', a member of the [[W:Demihypercube|demihypercube]] family.{{Sfn|Conway, Burgiel &amp; Goodman-Strauss|2008| loc=Chapter 26. Hemicubes: 1&lt;sub&gt;n1&lt;/sub&gt; | p=409 }} It is represented by h{4,3,3} and [[W:Coxeter diagram|Coxeter diagram]]s {{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_h1|4|node|3|node|3|node}} or {{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|nodes_10ru|split2|node|3|node}}. It can be drawn bicolored with alternating [[W:tetrahedron|tetrahedral]] cells.

It can also be seen in lower symmetry form as a '''tetrahedral antiprism''', constructed by 2 parallel [[W:tetrahedron|tetrahedra]] in dual configurations, connected by 8 (possibly elongated) tetrahedra. It is represented by s{2,4,3}, and Coxeter diagram: {{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_h|2x|node_h|4|node|3|node}}.

It can also be seen as a snub 4-[[W:Orthotope|orthotope]], represented by s{2&lt;sup&gt;1,1,1&lt;/sup&gt;}, and Coxeter diagram: {{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_h|2x|node_h|2x|node_h|2x|node_h}} or {{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_h|2x|node_h|split1-22|nodes_hh}}.

With the [[W:Tesseract|tesseract]] constructed as a 4-4 [[W:Duoprism|duoprism]], the 16-cell can be seen as its dual, a 4-4 [[W:Duopyramid|duopyramid]].

{| class=wikitable
!Name
![[W:Coxeter diagram|Coxeter diagram]]
![[W:Schläfli symbol|Schläfli symbol]]
![[W:Coxeter notation|Coxeter notation]]
!Order
![[W:Vertex figure|Vertex figure]]
|- align=center
!Regular 16-cell
|{{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_1|3|node|3|node|4|node}}
|{3,3,4}
|[3,3,4]||384
|{{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_1|3|node|4|node}}
|- align=center
!Demitesseract&lt;br /&gt;[[W:Quasiregular polytope|Quasiregular]] 16-cell
|{{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|nodes_10ru|split2|node|3|node}} = {{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_h1|4|node|3|node|3|node}}&lt;br /&gt;{{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_1|3|node|split1|nodes}} = {{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_1|3|node|3|node|4|node_h0}}
|h{4,3,3}&lt;br /&gt;{3,3&lt;sup&gt;1,1&lt;/sup&gt;}
|[3&lt;sup&gt;1,1,1&lt;/sup&gt;] = [1&lt;sup&gt;+&lt;/sup&gt;,4,3,3]||192
|{{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node|3|node_1|3|node}}
|- align=center
!Alternated 4-4 [[W:Duoprism|duoprism]]
|{{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|label2|branch_hh|4a4b|nodes}}
|2s{4,2,4}
|[[W:4,2&lt;sup&gt;+&lt;/sup&gt;,4|4,2&lt;sup&gt;+&lt;/sup&gt;,4]]||64
|
|- align=center
!Tetrahedral antiprism
|{{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_h|2x|node_h|4|node|3|node}}
|s{2,4,3}
|[2&lt;sup&gt;+&lt;/sup&gt;,4,3]||48
|
|- align=center
!Alternated square prism prism
|{{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_h|2x|node_h|2x|node_h|4|node}}
|sr{2,2,4}
|[(2,2)&lt;sup&gt;+&lt;/sup&gt;,4]||16
|
|- align=center
!Snub 4-[[W:Orthotope|orthotope]]
|{{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_h|2x|node_h|2x|node_h|2x|node_h}} = {{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_h|2x|node_h|split1-22|nodes_hh}}
|s{2&lt;sup&gt;1,1,1&lt;/sup&gt;}
|[2,2,2]&lt;sup&gt;+&lt;/sup&gt; = [2&lt;sup&gt;1,1,1&lt;/sup&gt;]&lt;sup&gt;+&lt;/sup&gt;||8
|{{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_h|2x|node_h|2x|node_h}}
|- align=center
!rowspan=6|4-[[W:Rhombic fusil|fusil]]
|- align=center
|{{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_f1|4|node|3|node|3|node}}
|{3,3,4}
|[3,3,4]||384
|{{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_f1|4|node|3|node}}
|- align=center
|{{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_f1|4|node|2x|node_f1|4|node}}
|{4}+{4} or 2{4}
|&lt;nowiki&gt;[[W:4,2,4|4,2,4]]&lt;/nowiki&gt; = [8,2&lt;sup&gt;+&lt;/sup&gt;,8]||128
|{{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_f1|4|node|2x|node_f1}}
|- align=center
|{{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_f1|4|node|3|node|2x|node_f1}}
|{3,4}+{ }
|[4,3,2]||96
|{{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_f1|4|node|3|node}}&lt;br /&gt;{{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_f1|4|node|2x|node_f1}}
|- align=center
|{{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_f1|4|node|2x|node_f1|2x|node_f1}}
|{4}+2{ }
|[4,2,2]||32
|{{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_f1|4|node|2x|node_f1}}&lt;br /&gt;{{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_f1|2x|node_f1|2x|node_f1}}
|- align=center
|{{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_f1|2x|node_f1|2x|node_f1|2x|node_f1}}
|{ }+{ }+{ }+{ } or 4{ }
|[2,2,2]||16
|{{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_f1|2x|node_f1|2x|node_f1}}
|}

== Related complex polygons ==
The [[W:Möbius–Kantor polygon|Möbius–Kantor polygon]] is a [[W:Regular complex polytope|regular complex polygon]] &lt;sub&gt;3&lt;/sub&gt;{3}&lt;sub&gt;3&lt;/sub&gt;, {{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|3node_1|3|3node}}, in &lt;math&gt;\mathbb{C}^2&lt;/math&gt; shares the same vertices as the 16-cell. It has 8 vertices, and 8 3-edges.{{Sfn|Coxeter|1991|pp=30,47}}{{Sfn|Coxeter &amp; Shephard|1992}}

The regular complex polygon, &lt;sub&gt;2&lt;/sub&gt;{4}&lt;sub&gt;4&lt;/sub&gt;, {{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_1|4|4node}}, in &lt;math&gt;\mathbb{C}^2&lt;/math&gt; has a real representation as a 16-cell in 4-dimensional space with 8 vertices, 16 2-edges, only half of the edges of the 16-cell.  Its symmetry is &lt;sub&gt;4&lt;/sub&gt;[4]&lt;sub&gt;2&lt;/sub&gt;, order 32.{{Sfn|Coxeter|1991|p=108}}

{| class=wikitable width=320
|+ [[W:Orthographic projection|Orthographic projection]]s of &lt;sub&gt;2&lt;/sub&gt;{4}&lt;sub&gt;4&lt;/sub&gt; polygon
|- valign=top
|[[File:Complex polygon 2-4-4.png|160px]]&lt;br /&gt;In B&lt;sub&gt;4&lt;/sub&gt; [[W:Coxeter plane|Coxeter plane]], &lt;sub&gt;2&lt;/sub&gt;{4}&lt;sub&gt;4&lt;/sub&gt; has 8 vertices and 16 2-edges, shown here with 4 sets of colors.
|[[File:Complex polygon 2-4-4 bipartite graph.png|160px]]&lt;br /&gt;The 8 vertices are grouped in 2 sets (shown red and blue), each only connected with edges to vertices in the other set, making this polygon a [[W:Complete bipartite graph|complete bipartite graph]], K&lt;sub&gt;4,4&lt;/sub&gt;.{{Sfn|Coxeter|1991|p=114}}
|}

== Related uniform polytopes and honeycombs ==

The regular 16-cell and [[W:Tesseract|tesseract]] are the regular members of a set of 15 [[W:B4 polytope|uniform 4-polytopes with the same B&lt;sub&gt;4&lt;/sub&gt; symmetry]]. The 16-cell is also one of the [[W:D4 polytope|uniform polytopes of D&lt;sub&gt;4&lt;/sub&gt; symmetry]].

The 16-cell is also related to the [[W:Cubic honeycomb|cubic honeycomb]], [[W:Order-4 dodecahedral honeycomb|order-4 dodecahedral honeycomb]], and [[W:Order-4 hexagonal tiling honeycomb|order-4 hexagonal tiling honeycomb]] which all have [[W:Hexagonal tiling honeycomb#Polytopes and honeycombs with tetrahedral vertex figures|octahedral vertex figures]].

It belongs to the sequence of  [[W:Order-6 tetrahedral honeycomb#Related polytopes and honeycombs|{3,3,p} 4-polytopes]] which have tetrahedral cells. The sequence includes three [[W:Regular 4-polytope|regular 4-polytope]]s of Euclidean 4-space, the [[5-cell]] {3,3,3}, 16-cell {3,3,4}, and [[600-cell]] {3,3,5}), and the [[W:Order-6 tetrahedral honeycomb|order-6 tetrahedral honeycomb]] {3,3,6} of hyperbolic space.

It is first in a sequence of [[W:Tetrahedral-octahedral honeycomb#Quasuiregular honeycombs|quasiregular polytopes and honeycombs]] h{4,p,q}, and a [[W:Order-4 hexagonal tiling honeycomb#Quasiregular honeycombs|half symmetry sequence]], for regular forms {p,3,4}.

== See also ==
*[[24-cell]]
*[[W:4-polytope|4-polytope]]
*[[W:D4 polytope|D4 polytope]]

== Notes ==
{{Regular convex 4-polytopes Notelist|wiki=W:}}

== Citations ==
{{Regular convex 4-polytopes Reflist|wiki=W:}}

== References ==
{{Refbegin}}
{{Regular convex 4-polytopes Refs|wiki=W:}}
{{Refend}}

== External links ==
* [https://bendwavy.org/klitzing/incmats/hex.htm hex], at [https://bendwavy.org/klitzing/home.htm Klitzing polytopes]
* [https://polytope.miraheze.org/wiki/Hexadecachoron Hexadecachoron], at [https://polytope.miraheze.org/wiki/Main_Page Polytope wiki]
* [http://hi.gher.space/wiki/Aerochoron Aerochoron], at [http://hi.gher.space/wiki/Main_Page Higher space]
* [https://www.qfbox.info/4d/uniform Uniform polychora (The tesseract/16-cell family)], at [https://www.qfbox.info/4d/index 4D Euclidean Space]

[[Category:Geometry]]
[[Category:Polyscheme]]</text>
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      <text bytes="58726" sha1="511fbuz3u9rlrwbc18gy5gf8urqc9kx" xml:space="preserve">{{Short description|Four-dimensional analog of the octahedron}}
{{Polyscheme|radius=an '''expanded version''' of}}
{{Infobox 4-polytope |
  Name=16-cell&lt;br /&gt;(4-orthoplex)|
  Image_File=Schlegel wireframe 16-cell.png|
  Image_Caption=[[W:Schlegel diagram|Schlegel diagram]]&lt;br /&gt;(vertices and edges)|
  Type=[[W:Convex regular 4-polytope|Convex regular 4-polytope]]&lt;br /&gt;4-[[W:Orthoplex|orthoplex]]&lt;br /&gt;4-[[W:Demihypercube|demicube]]|
  Last=[[W:Rectified tesseract|11]]|
  Index=12|
  Next=[[W:Truncated tesseract|13]]|
  Schläfli={3,3,4}|
  CD={{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_1|3|node|3|node|4|node}} |
  Cell_List=16 [[W:Tetrahedron|{3,3}]] [[File:3-simplex t0.svg|25px]]|
  Face_List=32 [[W:Triangle|{3}]] [[File:2-simplex t0.svg|25px]]|
  Edge_Count= 24|
  Vertex_Count= 8|
  Petrie_Polygon=[[W:Octagon|octagon]]|
  Coxeter_Group=B&lt;sub&gt;4&lt;/sub&gt;, [3,3,4], order 384&lt;br /&gt;D&lt;sub&gt;4&lt;/sub&gt;, order 192|
  Vertex_Figure=[[File:16-cell verf.svg|80px]]&lt;br /&gt;[[W:Octahedron|Octahedron]]|
  Dual=[[W:Tesseract|Tesseract]]|
  Property_List=[[W:Convex polytope|convex]], [[W:Isogonal figure|isogonal]], [[W:Isotoxal figure|isotoxal]], [[W:Isohedral figure|isohedral]], [[W:Regular polytope|regular]], [[W:Hanner polytope|Hanner polytope]]
}}
In [[W:Geometry|geometry]], the '''16-cell''' is the [[W:Regular convex 4-polytope|regular convex 4-polytope]] (four-dimensional analogue of a Platonic solid) with [[W:Schläfli symbol|Schläfli symbol]] {3,3,4}. It is one of the six regular convex 4-polytopes first described by the Swiss mathematician [[W:Ludwig Schläfli|Ludwig Schläfli]] in the mid-19th century.{{Sfn|Coxeter|1973|p=141|loc=§&amp;nbsp;7-x. Historical remarks}} It is also called '''C&lt;sub&gt;16&lt;/sub&gt;''', '''hexadecachoron''',&lt;ref&gt;[[W:Norman Johnson (mathematician)|N.W. Johnson]]: ''Geometries and Transformations'', (2018) {{ISBN|978-1-107-10340-5}} Chapter 11: ''Finite Symmetry Groups'', 11.5 ''Spherical Coxeter groups'', p.249&lt;/ref&gt; or '''hexdecahedroid'''.&lt;ref&gt;Matila Ghyka, ''The Geometry of Art and Life'' (1977), p.68&lt;/ref&gt;

It is the 4-dimesional member of an infinite family of polytopes called [[W:Cross-polytope|cross-polytope]]s, ''orthoplexes'', or ''hyperoctahedrons'' which are analogous to the [[W:Cctahedron|octahedron]] in three dimensions. It is Coxeter's &lt;math&gt;\beta_4&lt;/math&gt; polytope.{{Sfn|Coxeter|1973|pp=120=121|loc=§&amp;nbsp;7.2. See illustration Fig 7.2&lt;small&gt;B&lt;/small&gt;}} The [[W:Dual polytope|dual polytope]] is the [[W:Tesseract|tesseract]] (4-[[W:Hypercube|cube]]), which it can be combined with to form [[W:Compound of tesseract and 16-cell|a compound figure]]. The cells of the 16-cell are dual to the 16 vertices of the tesseract.

== Geometry ==
The 16-cell is the second in the sequence of 6 convex regular 4-polytopes (in order of size and complexity).{{Efn|name=polytopes ordered by size and complexity|group=}}

Each of its 4 successor convex regular 4-polytopes can be constructed as the [[W:Convex hull|convex hull]] of a [[W:Polytope compound|polytope compound]] of multiple 16-cells: the 16-vertex [[W:Tesseract|tesseract]] as a compound of two 16-cells, the 24-vertex [[24-cell]] as a compound of three 16-cells, the 120-vertex [[600-cell]] as a compound of fifteen 16-cells, and the 600-vertex [[120-cell]] as a compound of seventy-five 16-cells.{{Efn|There are 2 and only 2 16-cells inscribed in the 8-cell (tesseract), 3 and only 3 16-cells inscribed in the 24-cell, 75 distinct 16-cells (but only 15 disjoint 16-cells) inscribed in the 600-cell, and 675 distinct 16-cells (but only 75 disjoint 16-cells) inscribed in the 120-cell.}}

{{Regular convex 4-polytopes|wiki=W:}}

=== Coordinates ===
{| class=&quot;wikitable floatright&quot;
!colspan=2|Disjoint squares
|-
|
{| class=&quot;wikitable&quot; style=&quot;white-space:nowrap;&quot;
!colspan=2|''xy'' plane
|-
|( 0, 1, 0, 0)||( 0, 0,-1, 0)
|-
|( 0, 0, 1, 0)||( 0,-1, 0, 0)
|}
|-
|
{| class=&quot;wikitable&quot; style=&quot;white-space:nowrap;&quot;
!colspan=2|''wz'' plane
|-
|( 1, 0, 0, 0)||( 0, 0, 0,-1)
|-
|( 0, 0, 0, 1)||(-1, 0, 0, 0)
|}
|}The 16-cell is the 4-dimensional [[W:Cross polytope|cross polytope (4-orthoplex)]], which means its vertices lie in opposite pairs on the 4 axes of a (w, x, y, z) Cartesian coordinate system.

The eight vertices are (±1, 0, 0, 0), (0, ±1, 0, 0), (0, 0, ±1, 0), (0, 0, 0, ±1). All vertices are connected by edges except opposite pairs. The edge length is {{radic|2}}.

The vertex coordinates form 6 [[W:Orthogonal|orthogonal]] central squares lying in the 6 coordinate planes. Squares in ''opposite'' planes that do not share an axis (e.g. in the ''xy'' and ''wz'' planes) are completely disjoint (they do not intersect at any vertices). These planes are [[W:Completely orthogonal|completely orthogonal]].{{Efn|name=Six orthogonal planes of the Cartesian basis}}

The 16-cell constitutes an [[W:Orthonormal basis|orthonormal ''basis'']] for the choice of a 4-dimensional reference frame, because its vertices exactly define the four orthogonal axes.

=== Structure ===
The [[W:Schläfli symbol|Schläfli symbol]] of the 16-cell is {3,3,4}, indicating that its cells are [[W:Regular tetrahedron|regular tetrahedra]] {3,3} and its [[W:Vertex figure|vertex figure]] is a [[W:Regular octahedron|regular octahedron]] {3,4}. There are 8 tetrahedra, 12 triangles, and 6 edges meeting at every vertex. Its [[W:Edge figure|edge figure]] is a square. There are 4 tetrahedra and 4 triangles meeting at every edge.

The 16-cell is [[W:Totally bounded|bounded]] by 16 [[W:Cell (mathematics)|cells]], all of which are regular [[W:Tetrahedron|tetrahedra]].{{Efn|The boundary surface of a 16-cell is a finite 3-dimensional space consisting of 16 tetrahedra arranged face-to-face (four around one). It is a closed, tightly curved (non-Euclidean) 3-space, within which we can move straight through 4 tetrahedra in any direction and arrive back in the tetrahedron where we started. We can visualize moving around inside this tetrahedral [[W:Jungle gym|jungle gym]], climbing from one tetrahedron into another on its 24 struts (its edges), and never being able to get out (or see out) of the 16 tetrahedra no matter what direction we go (or look). We are always on (or in) the ''surface'' of the 16-cell, never inside the 16-cell itself (nor outside it). We can see that the 6 edges around each vertex radiate symmetrically in 3 dimensions and form an orthogonal 3-axis cross, just as the radii of an octahedron do (so we say the vertex figure of the 16-cell is the octahedron).{{Efn|name=octahedral pyramid}}}} It has 32 [[W:Triangle (geometry)|triangular]] [[W:Face (geometry)|faces]], 24 [[W:Edge (geometry)|edges]], and 8 [[W:Vertex (geometry)|vertices]]. The 24 edges bound 6 [[W:Orthogonal|orthogonal]] central squares lying on [[W:Great circle|great circles]] in the 6 coordinate planes (3 pairs of completely orthogonal great squares). At each vertex, 3 great squares cross perpendicularly. The 6 edges meet at the vertex the way 6 edges meet at the [[W:Apex (geometry)|apex]] of a canonical [[W:Octahedral pyramid|octahedral pyramid]].{{Efn|Each vertex in the 16-cell is the apex of an [[W:Octahedral pyramid|octahedral pyramid]], the base of which is the octahedron formed by the 6 other vertices to which the apex is connected by edges. The 16-cell can be deconstructed (four different ways) into two octahedral pyramids by cutting it in half through one of its four octahedral central hyperplanes. Looked at from inside the curved 3 dimensional volume of its boundary surface of 16 face-bonded tetrahedra, the 16-cell's vertex figure is an octahedron. In 4 dimensions, the vertex octahedron is actually an octahedral pyramid. The apex of the octahedral pyramid (the vertex where the 6 edges meet) is not actually at the center of the octahedron: it is displaced radially outwards in the fourth dimension, out of the hyperplane defined by the octahedron's 6 vertices. The 6 edges around the vertex make an orthogonal 3-axis cross in 3 dimensions (and in the [[W:Octahedral pyramid|3-dimensional projection of the 4-pyramid]]), but the 3 lines are actually bent 90 degrees in the fourth dimension where they meet in an apex.|name=octahedral pyramid}} The 6 orthogonal central planes of the 16-cell can be divided into 4 orthogonal central hyperplanes (3-spaces) each forming an [[W:Octahedron|octahedron]] with 3 orthogonal great squares.

=== Rotations ===
{| class=&quot;wikitable&quot; width=480
|- align=center valign=top
|rowspan=2|[[File:16-cell.gif]]&lt;br /&gt;A 3D projection of a 16-cell performing a [[W:SO(4)#Simple rotations|simple rotation]]
|[[File:16-cell-orig.gif]]&lt;br /&gt;A 3D projection of a 16-cell performing a [[W:SO(4)#Double rotations|double rotation]]
|}
[[W:Rotations in 4-dimensional Euclidean space|Rotations in 4-dimensional Euclidean space]] can be seen as the composition of two 2-dimensional rotations in [[w:Completely_orthogonal|completely orthogonal]] planes.{{Sfn|Kim|Rote|2016|p=6|loc=§&amp;nbsp;5. Four-Dimensional Rotations}} The 16-cell is a simple frame in which to observe 4-dimensional rotations, because each of the 16-cell's 6 great squares has another completely orthogonal great square (there are 3 pairs of completely orthogonal squares).{{Efn|name=Six orthogonal planes of the Cartesian basis}} Many rotations of the 16-cell can be characterized by the angle of rotation in one of its great square planes (e.g. the ''xy'' plane) and another angle of rotation in the completely orthogonal great square plane (the ''wz'' plane).{{Efn|Each great square vertex is {{radic|2}} distant from two of the square's other vertices, and {{radic|4}} distant from its opposite vertex. The other four vertices of the 16-cell (also {{radic|2}} distant) are the vertices of the square's completely orthogonal square.{{Efn|name=Clifford parallel great squares}} Each 16-cell vertex is a vertex of ''three'' orthogonal great squares which intersect there. Each great square has a different ''completely'' orthogonal great square. Thus there are three great squares completely orthogonal to each vertex: squares that the vertex is not part of.{{Efn|The three ''incompletely'' orthogonal great squares which intersect at each vertex of the 16-cell form the vertex's octahedral [[W:Vertex figure|vertex figure]].{{Efn|name=octahedral pyramid}} Any two of them, together with the completely orthogonal square of the third, also form an octahedron: a central octahedral hyperplane.{{Efn|Three great squares meet at each vertex (and at its opposite vertex) in the 16-cell. Each of them has a different completely orthogonal square. Thus there are three great squares completely orthogonal to each vertex and its opposite vertex (each axis). They form an octahedron (a central hyperplane). Every axis line in the 16-cell is completely orthogonal to a central octahedron hyperplane, as every great square plane is completely orthogonal to another great square plane.{{Efn|name=Six orthogonal planes of the Cartesian basis}} The axis and the octahedron intersect only at one point (the center of the 16-cell), as each pair of completely orthogonal great squares intersects only at one point (the center of the 16-cell). Each central octahedron is also the octahedral vertex figure of two of the eight vertices: the two on its completely orthogonal axis.|name=octahedral hyperplanes}} In the 16-cell, each octahedral vertex figure is also a central octahedral hyperplane.|name=completely orthogonal great squares}}|name=vertex and central octahedra}} Completely orthogonal great squares have disjoint vertices: 4 of the 16-cell's 8 vertices rotate in one plane, and the other 4 rotate independently in the completely orthogonal plane.{{Efn|Completely orthogonal great squares are non-intersecting and rotate independently because the great circles on which their vertices lie are [[W:Clifford parallel|Clifford parallel]].{{Efn|[[W:Clifford parallel|Clifford parallel]]s are non-intersecting curved lines that are parallel in the sense that the perpendicular (shortest) distance between them is the same at each point.{{Sfn|Tyrrell &amp; Semple|1971|loc=§&amp;nbsp;3. Clifford's original definition of parallelism|pp=5-6}} A double helix is an example of Clifford parallelism in ordinary 3-dimensional Euclidean space. In 4-space Clifford parallels occur as geodesic great circles on the [[W:3-sphere|3-sphere]].{{Sfn|Kim|Rote|2016|pp=7-10|loc=§&amp;nbsp;6. Angles between two Planes in 4-Space}} In the 16-cell the corresponding vertices of completely orthogonal great circle squares are all {{radic|2}} apart, so these squares are Clifford parallel polygons.{{Efn|name=completely orthogonal Clifford parallels are special}} Note that only the vertices of the great squares (the points on the great circle) are {{radic|2}} apart; points on the edges of the squares (on chords of the circle) are closer together.|name=Clifford parallels}} They are {{radic|2}} apart at each pair of nearest vertices (and in the 16-cell ''all'' the pairs except antipodal pairs are nearest). The two squares cannot intersect at all because they lie in planes which intersect at only one point: the center of the 16-cell.{{Efn|name=Six orthogonal planes of the Cartesian basis}} Because they are perpendicular and share a common center, the two squares are obviously not parallel and separate in the usual way of parallel squares in 3 dimensions; rather they are connected like adjacent square links in a chain, each passing through the other without intersecting at any points, forming a [[W:Hopf link|Hopf link]].|name=Clifford parallel great squares}}

In 2 or 3 dimensions a rotation is characterized by a single plane of rotation; this kind of rotation taking place in 4-space is called a [[W:Rotations in 4-dimensional Euclidean space#Simple rotations|simple rotation]], in which only one of the two completely orthogonal planes rotates (the angle of rotation in the other plane is 0). In the 16-cell, a simple rotation in one of the 6 orthogonal planes moves only 4 of the 8 vertices; the other 4 remain fixed. (In the simple rotation animation above, all 8 vertices move because the plane of rotation is not one of the 6 orthogonal basis planes.)

In a [[W:Rotations in 4-dimensional Euclidean space#Double rotations|double rotation]] both sets of 4 vertices move, but independently: the angles of rotation may be different in the 2 completely orthogonal planes. If the two angles happen to be the same, a maximally symmetric [[W:Rotations in 4-dimensional Euclidean space#Isoclinic rotations|isoclinic rotation]] takes place.{{Efn|In an isoclinic rotation, all 6 orthogonal planes are displaced in two orthogonal directions at once: they are rotated by the angle, and at the same time they are tilted ''sideways'' by that same angle. An isoclinic displacement (also known as a [[W:William Kingdon Clifford|Clifford]] displacement) is 4-dimensionally diagonal. Points are displaced an equal distance in four orthogonal directions at once, and displaced a total [[W:Pythagorean distance#Higher dimensions|Pythagorean distance]] equal to the square root of four times the square of that distance (which is two times that distance). For example, when the unit-radius 16-cell rotates isoclinically 90° in a great square invariant plane, it also rotates 90° in the completely orthogonal great square invariant plane.{{Efn||name=Six orthogonal planes of the Cartesian basis}} The great square plane tilts sideways 90° to occupy its completely orthogonal plane. (By isoclinic symmetry, ''every'' great square plane rotates 90° ''and'' tilts sideways 90° into its completely orthogonal plane.) Each vertex (in every great square) is displaced to its antipodal vertex, at a distance of {{radic|1}} in each of four orthogonal directions, a total distance of {{radic|4}}. The original and displaced vertex are two edge lengths apart by three{{Efn|There are six different two-edge paths connecting a pair of antipodal vertices along the edges of a great square. The left isoclinic rotation runs diagonally between three of them, and the right isoclinic rotation runs diagonally between the other three. These diagonals are the straight lines (geodesics) connecting opposite vertices of face-bonded tetrahedral cells in the left-handed [[#Helical construction|eight-cell ring]] and the right-handed eight-cell ring, respectively.}} different paths along two edges of a great square. But the ''isocline'' (the helical arc the vertex follows during the isoclinic rotation) does not run along edges: it runs ''between'' these different edge-paths diagonally, on a geodesic (shortest arc) between the original and displaced vertices.{{Efn|name=isocline}} This isoclinic geodesic arc is not a segment of an ordinary great circle; it does not lie in the plane of any great square. It is a helical 180° arc that bends in a circle in two completely orthogonal planes at once. This [[W:Möbius loop|Möbius circle]] does not lie in any one great circle plane, or intersect any vertices of the 16-cell between the original and the displaced vertex.{{Efn|name=Möbius circle}}|name=isoclinic rotation}} In the 16-cell an isoclinic rotation by 90 degrees of any pair of completely orthogonal square planes takes every square plane to its completely orthogonal square plane.{{Efn|The 90 degree isoclinic rotation of two completely orthogonal planes takes them to each other. In such a rotation of a rigid 16-cell, all 6 orthogonal planes rotate by 90 degrees, and also tilt sideways by 90 degrees to their completely orthogonal (Clifford parallel){{Efn|name=Clifford parallels}} plane.{{Sfn|Kim|Rote|2016|pp=8-10|loc=Relations to Clifford Parallelism}} The corresponding vertices of the two completely orthogonal great squares are {{radic|4}} (180°) apart; the great squares (Clifford parallel polytopes) are {{radic|4}} (180°) apart; but the two completely orthogonal ''planes'' are 90° apart, in the ''two'' orthogonal angles that separate them. If the isoclinic rotation is continued through another 90°, each vertex completes a 360° rotation and each great square returns to its original plane, but in a different orientation (axes swapped): it has been turned &quot;upside down&quot; on the surface of the 16-cell (which is now &quot;inside out&quot;). Continuing through a second 360° isoclinic rotation (through four 90° by 90° isoclinic steps, a 720° rotation) returns everything to its original place and orientation.|name=exchange of completely orthogonal planes}}

=== Constructions ===

==== Octahedral dipyramid ====
{|class=&quot;wikitable floatright&quot;
!Octahedron &lt;math&gt;\beta_3&lt;/math&gt;
!16-cell &lt;math&gt;\beta_4&lt;/math&gt;
|-
|[[File:3-cube t2.svg|160px]]
|[[File:4-demicube t0 D4.svg|160px]]
|-
|colspan=2|Orthogonal projections to skew hexagon hyperplane
|}
The simplest construction of the 16-cell is on the 3-dimensional cross polytope, the [[W:Octahedron|octahedron]]. The octahedron has 3 perpendicular axes and 6 vertices in 3 opposite pairs (its [[W:Petrie polygon|Petrie polygon]] is the [[W:Hexagon|hexagon]]). Add another pair of vertices, on a fourth axis perpendicular to all 3 of the other axes. Connect each new vertex to all 6 of the original vertices, adding 12 new edges. This raises two [[W:Octahedral pyramid|octahedral pyramid]]s on a shared octahedron base that lies in the 16-cell's central hyperplane.{{Sfn|Coxeter|1973|p=121|loc=§&amp;nbsp;7.21. See illustration Fig 7.2&lt;small&gt;B&lt;/small&gt;|ps=: &quot;&lt;math&gt;\beta_4&lt;/math&gt; is a four-dimensional dipyramid based on &lt;math&gt;\beta_3&lt;/math&gt; (with its two apices in opposite directions along the fourth dimension).&quot;}}

[[File:stereographic_polytope_16cell_colour.png|thumb|[[W:Stereographic projection|Stereographic projection]] of the 16-cell's 6 orthogonal central squares onto their great circles. Each circle is divided into 4 arc-edges at the intersections where 3 circles cross perpendicularly. Notice that each circle has one Clifford parallel circle that it does ''not'' intersect. Those two circles pass through each other like adjacent links in a chain.]]The octahedron that the construction starts with has three perpendicular intersecting squares (which appear as rectangles in the hexagonal projections). Each square intersects with each of the other squares at two opposite vertices, with ''two'' of the squares crossing at each vertex. Then two more points are added in the fourth dimension (above and below the 3-dimensional hyperplane). These new vertices are connected to all the octahedron's vertices, creating 12 new edges and ''three more squares'' (which appear edge-on as the 3 ''diameters'' of the hexagon in the projection), and three more octahedra.{{Efn|name=octahedral hyperplanes}}

Something unprecedented has also been created. Notice that each square no longer intersects with ''all'' of the other squares: it does intersect with four of them (with ''three'' of the squares crossing at each vertex now), but each square has ''one'' other square with which it shares ''no'' vertices: it is not directly connected to that square at all. These two ''separate'' perpendicular squares (there are three pairs of them) are like the opposite edges of a [[W:Tetrahedron|tetrahedron]]: perpendicular, but non-intersecting. They lie opposite each other (parallel in some sense), and they don't touch, but they also pass through each other like two perpendicular links in a chain (but unlike links in a chain they have a common center). They are an example of '''''Clifford parallels''''', and the 16-cell is the simplest regular polytope in which they occur. [[W:William Kingdon Clifford|Clifford]] parallelism{{Efn|name=Clifford parallels}} of objects of more than one dimension (more than just curved ''lines'') emerges here and occurs in all the subsequent 4-dimensional regular polytopes, where it can be seen as the defining relationship ''among'' disjoint concentric regular 4-polytopes and their corresponding parts. It can occur between congruent (similar) polytopes of 2 or more dimensions.{{Sfn|Tyrrell &amp; Semple|1971}} For example, as noted [[#Geometry|above]] all the subsequent convex regular 4-polytopes are compounds of multiple 16-cells; those 16-cells are [[24-cell#Clifford parallel polytopes|Clifford parallel polytopes]].

==== Tetrahedral constructions ====
{| class=&quot;wikitable&quot; width=480
|- align=center valign=top
|[[File:16-cell net.png|180px|]]
|[[File:16-cell nets.png|180px]]
|}

The 16-cell has two [[W:Wythoff construction|Wythoff construction]]s from regular tetrahedra, a regular form and alternated form, shown here as [[W:Net (polyhedron)|nets]], the second represented by tetrahedral cells of two alternating colors. The alternated form is a [[#Symmetry constructions|lower symmetry construction]] of the 16-cell called the [[W:Demitesseract|demitesseract]].

Wythoff's construction replicates the 16-cell's [[5-cell#Orthoschemes|characteristic 5-cell]] in a [[W:Kaleidoscope|kaleidoscope]] of mirrors. Every regular 4-polytope has its characteristic 4-orthoscheme, an [[5-cell#Irregular 5-cells|irregular 5-cell]].{{Efn|An [[W:Orthoscheme|orthoscheme]] is a [[W:Chiral|chiral]] irregular [[W:simplex|simplex]] with [[W:Right triangle|right triangle]] faces that is characteristic of some polytope if it will exactly fill that polytope with the reflections of itself in its own [[W:Facet (geometry)|facets]] (its ''mirror walls''). Every regular polytope can be dissected radially into instances of its [[W:Orthoscheme#Characteristic simplex of the general regular polytope|characteristic orthoscheme]] surrounding its center. The characteristic orthoscheme has the shape described by the same [[W:Coxeter-Dynkin diagram|Coxeter-Dynkin diagram]] as the regular polytope without the ''generating point'' ring.|name=characteristic orthoscheme}} There are three regular 4-polytopes with tetrahedral cells: the [[5-cell]], the 16-cell, and the [[600-cell]]. Although all are bounded by ''regular'' tetrahedron cells, their characteristic 5-cells (4-orthoschemes) are different [[5-cell#Isometries|tetrahedral pyramids]], all based on the same characteristic ''irregular'' tetrahedron. They share the same [[W:Tetrahedron#Orthoschemes|characteristic tetrahedron]] (3-orthoscheme) and characteristic [[W:Right triangle|right triangle]] (2-orthoscheme) because they have the same kind of cell.{{Efn|A regular polytope of dimension ''k'' has a characteristic ''k''-orthoscheme, and also a characteristic (''k''-1)-orthoscheme. A regular 4-polytope has a characteristic 5-cell (4-orthoscheme) into which it is subdivided by its (3-dimensional) hyperplanes of symmetry, and also a characteristic tetrahedron (3-orthoscheme) into which its surface is subdivided by its cells' (2-dimensional) planes of symmetry. After subdividing its (3-dimensional) surface into characteristic tetrahedra surrounding each cell center, its (4-dimensional) interior can be subdivided into characteristic 5-cells by adding radii joining the vertices of the surface characteristic tetrahedra to the 4-polytope's center.{{Sfn|Coxeter|1973|p=130|loc=§&amp;nbsp;7.6|ps=; &quot;simplicial subdivision&quot;.}} The interior tetrahedra and triangles thus formed will also be orthoschemes.}}

{| class=&quot;wikitable floatright&quot;
!colspan=6|Characteristics of the 16-cell{{Sfn|Coxeter|1973|pp=292-293|loc=Table I(ii); &quot;16-cell, 𝛽&lt;sub&gt;4&lt;/sub&gt;&quot;}}
|-
!align=right|
!align=center|edge{{Sfn|Coxeter|1973|p=139|loc=§&amp;nbsp;7.9 The characteristic simplex}}
!colspan=2 align=center|arc
!colspan=2 align=center|dihedral{{Sfn|Coxeter|1973|p=290|loc=Table I(ii); &quot;dihedral angles&quot;}}
|-
!align=right|𝒍
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2} \approx 1.414&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;90°&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\tfrac{\pi}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;120°&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\tfrac{2\pi}{3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|
|
|
|
|
|-
!align=right|𝟀
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\tfrac{2}{3}} \approx 0.816&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;60″&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\tfrac{\pi}{3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;60°&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\tfrac{\pi}{3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
!align=right|𝝉{{Efn|{{Harv|Coxeter|1973}} uses the greek letter 𝝓 (phi) to represent one of the three ''characteristic angles'' 𝟀, 𝝓, 𝟁 of a regular polytope. Because 𝝓 is commonly used to represent the [[W:Golden ratio|golden ratio]] constant ≈ 1.618, for which Coxeter uses 𝝉 (tau), we reverse Coxeter's conventions, and use 𝝉 to represent the characteristic angle.|name=reversed greek symbols}}
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\tfrac{1}{2}} \approx 0.707&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;45″&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\tfrac{\pi}{4}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;45°&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\tfrac{\pi}{4}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
!align=right|𝟁
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\tfrac{1}{6}} \approx 0.408&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;30″&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\tfrac{\pi}{6}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;60°&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\tfrac{\pi}{3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|
|
|
|
|
|-
!align=right|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;_0R^3/l&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\tfrac{3}{4}} \approx 0.866&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;60°&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\tfrac{\pi}{3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;90°&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\tfrac{\pi}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
!align=right|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;_1R^3/l&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\tfrac{1}{4}} = 0.5&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;45°&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\tfrac{\pi}{4}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;90°&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\tfrac{\pi}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
!align=right|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;_2R^3/l&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\tfrac{1}{12}} \approx 0.289&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;30°&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\tfrac{\pi}{6}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;90°&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\tfrac{\pi}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|
|
|
|
|
|-
!align=right|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;_0R^4/l&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|
|align=center|
|align=center|
|align=center|
|-
!align=right|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;_1R^4/l&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\tfrac{1}{2}} \approx 0.707&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|
|align=center|
|align=center|
|align=center|
|-
!align=right|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;_2R^4/l&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\tfrac{1}{3}} \approx 0.577&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|
|align=center|
|align=center|
|align=center|
|-
!align=right|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;_3R^4/l&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\tfrac{1}{4}} = 0.5&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|
|align=center|
|align=center|
|align=center|
|}
The '''characteristic 5-cell of the regular 16-cell''' is represented by the [[W:Coxeter-Dynkin diagram|Coxeter-Dynkin diagram]] {{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node|3|node|3|node|4|node}}, which can be read as a list of the dihedral angles between its mirror facets. It is an irregular [[W:Pyramid (mathematics)#Polyhedral pyramid|tetrahedral pyramid]] based on the [[W:Tetrahedron#Orthoschemes|characteristic tetrahedron of the regular tetrahedron]]. The regular 16-cell is subdivided by its symmetry hyperplanes into 384 instances of its characteristic 5-cell that all meet at its center.

The characteristic 5-cell (4-orthoscheme) has four more edges than its base characteristic tetrahedron (3-orthoscheme), joining the four vertices of the base to its apex (the fifth vertex of the 4-orthoscheme, at the center of the regular 16-cell).{{Efn|The four edges of each 4-orthoscheme which meet at the center of a regular 4-polytope are of unequal length, because they are the four characteristic radii of the regular 4-polytope: a vertex radius, an edge center radius, a face center radius, and a cell center radius. The five vertices of the 4-orthoscheme always include one regular 4-polytope vertex, one regular 4-polytope edge center, one regular 4-polytope face center, one regular 4-polytope cell center, and the regular 4-polytope center. Those five vertices (in that order) comprise a path along four mutually perpendicular edges (that makes three right angle turns), the characteristic feature of a 4-orthoscheme. The 4-orthoscheme has five dissimilar 3-orthoscheme facets.|name=characteristic radii}} If the regular 16-cell has unit radius edge and edge length 𝒍 = &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;, its characteristic 5-cell's ten edges have lengths &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\tfrac{2}{3}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;, &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\tfrac{1}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;, &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\tfrac{1}{6}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; around its exterior right-triangle face (the edges opposite the ''characteristic angles'' 𝟀, 𝝉, 𝟁),{{Efn|name=reversed greek symbols}} plus &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\tfrac{3}{4}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;, &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\tfrac{1}{4}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;, &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\tfrac{1}{12}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; (the other three edges of the exterior 3-orthoscheme facet the characteristic tetrahedron, which are the ''characteristic radii'' of the regular tetrahedron), plus &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;, &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\tfrac{1}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;, &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\tfrac{1}{3}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;, &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\tfrac{1}{4}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; (edges which are the characteristic radii of the regular 16-cell). The 4-edge path along orthogonal edges of the orthoscheme is &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\tfrac{1}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;, &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\tfrac{1}{6}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;, &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\tfrac{1}{4}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;, &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\tfrac{1}{4}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;, first from a 16-cell vertex to a 16-cell edge center, then turning 90° to a 16-cell face center, then turning 90° to a 16-cell tetrahedral cell center, then turning 90° to the 16-cell center.

==== Helical construction ====
[[File:Eight face-bonded tetrahedra.jpg|thumb|A 4-dimensional ring of 8 face-bonded tetrahedra, seen in the [[W:Boerdijk–Coxeter helix|Boerdijk–Coxeter helix]], bounded by three eight-edge circular paths of different colors, cut and laid out flat in 3-dimensional space. It contains an ''isocline'' axis (not shown), a helical circle of circumference 4𝝅 that twists through all four dimensions and visits all 8 vertices.{{Efn|name=isocline}} The two blue-blue-yellow triangles at either end of the cut ring are the same object.]]
[[File:16-cell 8-ring net4.png|thumb|Net and orthogonal projection]]

A 16-cell can be constructed (three different ways) from two [[W:Boerdijk–Coxeter helix|Boerdijk–Coxeter helix]]es of eight chained tetrahedra, each bent in the fourth dimension into a ring.{{Sfn|Coxeter|1970|loc=Table 2: Reflexible honeycombs and their groups|p=45|ps=; Honeycomb [3,3,4]&lt;sub&gt;4&lt;/sub&gt; is a tiling of the 3-sphere by 2 rings of 8 tetrahedral cells.}}{{Sfn|Banchoff|2013}} The two circular helixes share the same 8 vertices and 24 edges, but their tetrahedra are disjoint. The helixes spiral around each other, nest into each other and pass through each other forming a [[W:Hopf link|Hopf link]]. 16 of the 32 triangle faces can be seen in a 2D net within a [[W:Triangular tiling|triangular tiling]], with 6 triangles around every vertex. The [[W:Petrie polygon|Petrie polygon]] of the 16-cell is a skew octagon, visible as the purple edges in the octagon orthogonal projection, and as the light blue edges in the tetrahedral helix. Each eight-cell ring of tetrahedra actually contains three such skew [[W:Octagram|octagram]]s of different colors, eight-edge circular paths that wind twice around the 16-cell on every third vertex of the octagram. The orange and yellow edges are two four-edge halves of one skew octagram, which join their ends to form a [[W:Möbius strip|Möbius strip]].

Thus the 16-cell can be decomposed into two cell-disjoint circular chains of eight tetrahedrons each, four edges long, one spiraling to the right (clockwise) and the other spiraling to the left (counterclockwise). The left-handed and right-handed cell rings fit together, nesting into each other and entirely filling the 16-cell, even though they are of opposite chirality. This decomposition can be seen in a 4-4 [[W:Duoantiprism|duoantiprism]] construction of the 16-cell: {{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_h|2x|node_h|2x|node_h|2x|node_h}} or {{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node|4|node_h|2x|node_h|4|node}}, [[W:Schläfli symbol|Schläfli symbol]] {2}⨂{2} or s{2}s{2}, [[W:Coxeter notation|symmetry]] [4,2&lt;sup&gt;+&lt;/sup&gt;,4], order 64.

Three eight-edge paths (of different colors) spiral along each eight-cell ring, making 90° angles at each vertex. (In the Boerdijk–Coxeter helix before it is bent into a ring, the angles in different paths vary, but are not 90°.) Three paths (with three different colors and apparent angles) pass through each vertex. When the helix is bent into a ring, the segments of each eight-edge path (of various lengths) join their ends, forming a Möbius strip eight edges long along its single-sided circumference of 4𝝅, and one edge wide.{{Efn|name=Möbius circle}} The six four-edge halves of the three eight-edge paths each make four 90° angles, but they are ''not'' the six orthogonal great squares: they are open-ended squares, four-edge 360° helices whose open ends are [[W:Antipodal point|antipodal]] vertices. The four edges come from four different great squares, and are mutually orthogonal. Combined end-to-end in pairs of the same [[W:Chirality|chirality]], the six four-edge paths make three eight-edge Möbius loops, [[W:Helix|helical]] octagrams. Each octagram is both a [[W:Petrie polygon|Petrie polygon]] of the 16-cell, and the helical track along which all eight vertices rotate together, in one of the 16-cell's distinct isoclinic [[#Rotations|rotations]].{{Efn|The 16-cell can be constructed from two cell-disjoint eight-cell rings in three different ways; it has three orientations of its pair of rings. Each orientation &quot;contains&quot; a distinct left-right pair of isoclinic rotations, and also a pair of completely orthogonal great squares (Clifford parallel fibers), so each orientation is a discrete [[W:Hopf fibration|fibration]] of the 16-cell. Each eight-cell ring contains three axial octagrams which have different orientations (they exchange roles) in the three discrete fibrations and six distinct isoclinic rotations (three left and three right) through the cell rings. Three octagrams (of different colors) can be seen in the illustration of a single cell ring, one in the role of Petrie polygon, one as the right isocline, and one as the left isocline. Because each octagram plays three roles, there are exactly six distinct isoclines in the 16-cell, not 18.|name=only one disjoint pair of eight-cell rings}}

{| class=&quot;wikitable&quot; width=610
!colspan=5|Five ways of looking at the same [[W:Skew polygon|skew]] [[W:Octagram|octagram]]{{Efn|All five views are the same orthogonal projection of the 16-cell into the same plane (a circular cross-section of the eight-cell ring cylinder), looking along the central axis of the cut ring cylinder pictured above, from one end of the cylinder. The only difference is which {{radic|2}} edges and {{radic|4}} chords are ''omitted'' for focus. The different colors of {{radic|2}} edges appear to be of different lengths because they are oblique to the viewer at different angles. Vertices are numbered 1 (top) through 8 in counterclockwise order.}}
|-
![[#Rotations|Edge path]]
![[W:Petrie polygon#The Petrie polygon of regular polychora (4-polytopes)|Petrie polygon]]{{Sfn|Coxeter|1973|pp=292-293|loc=Table I(ii); 24-cell ''h&lt;sub&gt;1&lt;/sub&gt;''}}
!16-cell
![[W:Hopf fibration|Discrete fibration]]
![[#Coordinates|Diameter chords]]
|-
![[W:Octagram|Octagram]]&lt;sub&gt;{8/3}&lt;/sub&gt;{{Sfn|Coxeter|1973|pp=292-293|loc=Table I(ii); 24-cell ''h&lt;sub&gt;2&lt;/sub&gt;''}}
![[W:Petrie polygon#The Petrie polygon of regular polychora (4-polytopes)|Octagram]]&lt;sub&gt;{8/1}&lt;/sub&gt;
![[W:Coxeter element#Coxeter plane|Coxeter plane]] [[W:B4 polytope|B&lt;sub&gt;4&lt;/sub&gt;]]
![[W:Octagram#Star polygon compounds|Octagram]]&lt;sub&gt;{8/2}=2{4}&lt;/sub&gt;
![[W:Octagram#Star polygon compounds|Octagram]]&lt;sub&gt;{8/4}=4{2}&lt;/sub&gt;
|-
|align=center|[[File:16-cell skew octagram (8-3).png|120px]]
|align=center|[[File:16-cell skew octagram (8).png|120px]]
|align=center|[[File:16-cell skew octagram.png|120px]]
|align=center|[[File:16-cell skew octagram 2(4).png|120px]]
|align=center|[[File:16-cell skew octagram 4(2).png|120px]]
|-
|The eight {{radic|2}} chords of the edge-path of an isocline.{{Efn|name=isocline curve}}
|Skew [[W:Octagon|octagon]] of eight {{radic|2}} edges. The 16-cell has 3 of these 8-vertex circuits.
|All 24 {{radic|2}} edges and the four {{radic|4}} orthogonal axes.
|Two completely orthogonal (disjoint) great squares of {{radic|2}} edges.{{Efn|name=Clifford parallel great squares}}
|The four {{radic|4}} chords of an isocline. Every fourth isocline vertex is joined to its antipodal vertex by a 16-cell axis.{{Efn|Each isocline has the eight continuous {{radic|2}} chords of its octagram&lt;sub&gt;{8/3}&lt;/sub&gt; edge-path, and also four discontinuous {{radic|4}} diameter chords that connect every ''fourth'' vertex on the octagram but do not connect to each other. Antipodal vertices also have a twisted continuous path of four mutually orthogonal {{radic|2}} edges connecting them. Between antipodal vertices, the isocline curves smoothly around in a helix over the four {{radic|2}} chords of its edge-path, hitting the three intervening vertices. Each {{radic|2}} edge is an edge of a great square, that is completely orthogonal to another great square, in which the {{radic|4}} chord is a diagonal.|name=isocline curve}}
|}
Each eight-edge helix is a [[W:Skew polygon|skew]] [[W:Octagram|octagram]]&lt;sub&gt;{8/3}&lt;/sub&gt; that [[W:Winding number|winds three times]] around the 16-cell and visits every vertex before closing into a loop. Its eight {{radic|2}} edges are chords of an ''isocline'', a helical geodesic on which the 8 vertices circle during an isoclinic rotation.{{Efn|An isocline is a circle of special kind corresponding to a pair of [[W:Villarceau circle|Villarceau circle]]s linked in a [[W:Möbius loop|Möbius loop]]. It curves through four dimensions instead of just two. All ordinary circles have a 2𝝅 circumference, but the 16-cell's isocline is a circle with an 4𝝅 circumference (over eight 90° chords). An isocline is a circle that does not lie in a plane, but to avoid confusion we always refer to it as an ''isocline'' and reserve the term ''circle'' for an ordinary circle in the plane.|name=Möbius circle}} All eight 16-cell vertices are {{radic|2}} apart except for opposite (antipodal) vertices, which are {{radic|4}} apart. A vertex moving on the isocline visits three other vertices that are {{radic|2}} apart before reaching the fourth vertex that is {{radic|4}} away.{{Efn|In the 16-cell, two antipodal vertices are opposite vertices of two face-bonded tetrahedral cells. The two antipodal vertices are connected by (three different) two-edge great circle paths along edges of the tetrahedral cells, by various three-edge paths, and by four-edge paths on isoclines and Petrie polygons. {{Efn|name=Möbius circle}}|name=isocline}}

The eight-cell ring is [[W:Chiral|chiral]]: there is a right-handed form which spirals clockwise, and a left-handed form which spirals counterclockwise. The 16-cell contains one of each, so it also contains a left and a right isocline; the isocline is the circular axis around which the eight-cell ring twists. Each isocline visits all eight vertices of the 16-cell.{{Efn|In the 16-cell each ''single'' isocline winds through all 8 vertices: an entire [[W:Hopf fibration|fibration]] of two completely orthogonal great squares.{{Efn|name=completely orthogonal Clifford parallels are special}} The 5-cell and the 16-cell are the only regular 4-polytopes where each discrete fibration has just one isocline fiber.{{Efn|Except in the 5-cell and 16-cell,{{Efn|name=two special cases}} a pair of left and right isocline circles have disjoint vertices: the left and right isocline helices are non-intersecting parallels but counter-rotating, forming a special kind of double helix which cannot occur in three dimensions (where counter-rotating helices of the same radius must intersect).|name=counter-rotating double helix}}|name=each 16-cell isocline reaches all 8 vertices}} Each eight-cell ring contains half of the 16 cells, but all 8 vertices; the two rings share the vertices, as they nest into each other and fit together. They also share the 24 edges, though left and right octagram helices are different eight-edge paths.{{Efn|The left and right isoclines intersect each other at every vertex. They are different sequences of the same set of 8 vertices. With respect only to the set of 4 vertex pairs which are {{radic|2}} apart, they can be considered to be Clifford parallel. With respect only to the set of 4 vertex pairs which are {{radic|4}} apart, they can be considered to be completely orthogonal.{{Efn|name=completely orthogonal Clifford parallels are special}}}}

Because there are three pairs of completely orthogonal great squares,{{Efn|name=Six orthogonal planes of the Cartesian basis}} there are three congruent ways to compose a 16-cell from two eight-cell rings. The 16-cell contains three left-right pairs of eight-cell rings in different orientations, with each cell ring containing its axial isocline.{{Efn|name=only one disjoint pair of eight-cell rings}} Each left-right pair of isoclines is the track of a left-right pair of distinct isoclinic rotations: the rotations in one pair of completely orthogonal invariant planes of rotation.{{Efn|name=Clifford parallel great squares}} At each vertex, there are three great squares and six octagram isoclines that cross at the vertex and share a 16-cell axis chord.{{Efn|This is atypical for isoclinic rotations generally; normally both the left and right isoclines do not occur at the same vertex: there are two disjoint sets of vertices reachable only by the left or right rotation respectively.{{Efn|name=counter-rotating double helix}} The left and right isoclines of the 16-cell form a very special double helix: unusual not just because it is circular, but because its different left and right helices twist around each other through the ''same set'' of antipodal vertices,{{Efn|name=each 16-cell isocline reaches all 8 vertices}} not through the two ''disjoint subsets'' of antipodal vertices, as the isocline pairs do in most isoclinic rotations found in nature.{{Efn|For another example of the left and right isoclines of a rotation visiting the same set of vertices, see the [[5-cell#Geodesics and rotations|characteristic isoclinic rotation of the 5-cell]]. Although in these two special cases left and right isoclines of the same rotation visit the same set of vertices, they still take very different rotational paths because they visit the same vertices in different sequences.|name=two special cases}} Isoclinic rotations in completely orthogonal invariant planes are special.{{Efn|Each great square plane is isoclinic (Clifford parallel) to five other square planes but completely orthogonal to only one of them. Every pair of completely orthogonal planes has Clifford parallel great circles, but not all Clifford parallel great circles are orthogonal. There is also another way in which completely orthogonal planes are in a distinguished category of Clifford parallel planes: they are not [[W:Chiral|chiral]]. A pair of isoclinic (Clifford parallel) planes is either a ''left pair'' or a ''right pair'' unless they are separated by two angles of 90° (completely orthogonal planes) or 0° (coincident planes).{{Sfn|Kim|Rote|2016|pp=7-8|loc=§&amp;nbsp;6 Angles between two Planes in 4-Space|ps=; Left and Right Pairs of Isoclinic Planes.}} Most isoclinic planes are brought together only by a left isoclinic rotation or a right isoclinic rotation, respectively. Completely orthogonal planes are special: the pair of planes is both a left and a right pair, so either a left or a right isoclinic rotation will bring them together. Because planes separated by a 90° isoclinic rotation are 180° apart, the plane to the ''left'' and the plane to the ''right'' are the same plane.{{Efn|name=exchange of completely orthogonal planes}}|name=completely orthogonal Clifford parallels are special}} To see ''how'' and ''why'' they are special, visualize two completely orthogonal invariant planes of rotation, each rotating by some rotation angle ''and'' tilting sideways by the same rotation angle into a different plane entirely.{{Efn|name=isoclinic rotation}} ''Only when the rotation angle is 90°,'' that different plane in which the tilting invariant plane lands will be the completely orthogonal invariant plane itself. The destination plane of the rotation ''is'' the completely orthogonal invariant plane. The 90° isoclinic rotation is the only rotation which takes the completely orthogonal invariant planes to each other.{{Efn|name=exchange of completely orthogonal planes}} This reciprocity is the reason both left and right rotations go to the same place.}}

=== As a configuration ===
This [[W:Regular 4-polytope#As configurations|configuration matrix]] represents the 16-cell. The rows and columns correspond to vertices, edges, faces, and cells. The diagonal numbers say how many of each element occur in the whole 16-cell. The nondiagonal numbers say how many of the column's element occur in or at the row's element.

&lt;math&gt;\begin{bmatrix}\begin{matrix}8 &amp; 6 &amp; 12 &amp; 8 \\ 2 &amp; 24 &amp; 4 &amp; 4 \\ 3 &amp; 3 &amp; 32 &amp; 2 \\ 4 &amp; 6 &amp; 4 &amp; 16 \end{matrix}\end{bmatrix}&lt;/math&gt;

== Tessellations ==
One can [[W:Tessellation|tessellate]] 4-dimensional [[W:Euclidean space|Euclidean space]] by regular 16-cells. This is called the [[W:16-cell honeycomb|16-cell honeycomb]] and has [[W:Schläfli symbol|Schläfli symbol]] {3,3,4,3}. Hence, the 16-cell has a [[W:Dihedral angle|dihedral angle]] of 120°.{{sfn|Coxeter|1973|p=293}} Each 16-cell has 16 neighbors with which it shares a tetrahedron, 24 neighbors with which it shares only an edge, and 72 neighbors with which it shares only a single point. Twenty-four 16-cells meet at any given vertex in this tessellation.

The dual tessellation, the [[W:24-cell honeycomb|24-cell honeycomb]], {3,4,3,3}, is made of regular [[24-cell]]s. Together with the [[W:Tesseractic honeycomb|tesseractic honeycomb]] {4,3,3,4} these are the only three [[W:List of regular polytopes#Tessellations of Euclidean 4-space|regular tessellations]] of '''R'''&lt;sup&gt;4&lt;/sup&gt;.

== Projections ==
{{B4 Coxeter plane graphs|t3|150}}

[[File:Orthogonal projection envelopes 16-cell.png|thumb|Projection envelopes of the 16-cell. (Each cell is drawn with different color faces, inverted cells are undrawn)]]

The cell-first parallel projection of the 16-cell into 3-space has a [[W:cube|cubical]] envelope. The closest and farthest cells are projected to inscribed tetrahedra within the cube, corresponding with the two possible ways to inscribe a regular tetrahedron in a cube. Surrounding each of these tetrahedra are 4 other (non-regular) tetrahedral volumes that are the images of the 4 surrounding tetrahedral cells, filling up the space between the inscribed tetrahedron and the cube. The remaining 6 cells are projected onto the square faces of the cube. In this projection of the 16-cell, all its edges lie on the faces of the cubical envelope.

The cell-first perspective projection of the 16-cell into 3-space has a [[W:triakis tetrahedron|triakis tetrahedral]] envelope. The layout of the cells within this envelope are analogous to that of the cell-first parallel projection.

The vertex-first parallel [[W:Graphical projection|projection]] of the 16-cell into 3-space has an [[W:octahedron|octahedral]] [[W:projection envelope|envelope]]. This octahedron can be divided into 8 tetrahedral volumes, by cutting along the coordinate planes. Each of these volumes is the image of a pair of cells in the 16-cell. The closest vertex of the 16-cell to the viewer projects onto the center of the octahedron.

Finally the edge-first parallel projection has a shortened octahedral envelope, and the face-first parallel projection has a [[W:hexagonal bipyramid]]al envelope.

== 4 sphere Venn diagram ==
A 3-dimensional projection of the 16-cell and 4 intersecting spheres (a [[W:Venn diagram|Venn diagram]] of 4 sets) are [[W:topology|topologically]] equivalent.

{|
|-
|
{{multiple image
 | align = left  | total_width = 700
 | image1 = 4 spheres, cell 00, solid.png
 | image2 = 4 spheres, weight 1, solid.png
 | image3 = 4 spheres, weight 2, solid.png
 | image4 = 4 spheres, weight 3, solid.png
 | image5 = 4 spheres, cell 15, solid.png
 | footer = The 16 cells ordered by number of intersecting spheres (from 0 to 4) &amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp; &lt;small&gt;(see all [[commons:Category:Venn diagrams rgby; single cells|cells]] and [[v:Tesseract and 16-cell faces|''k''-faces]])&lt;/small&gt;
}}
|
{{multiple image
 | align = right  | total_width = 290
 | image1 = 4 spheres as rings, vertical.png
 | image2 = Stereographic polytope 16cell.png
 | footer = 4 sphere Venn diagram and 16-cell projection in the same orientation
}}
|}

== Symmetry constructions ==
The 16-cell's [[W:Coxeter group|symmetry group]] is denoted [[W:B4 polytope|B&lt;sub&gt;4&lt;/sub&gt;]].

There is a lower symmetry form of the ''16-cell'', called a '''demitesseract''' or '''4-demicube''', a member of the [[W:Demihypercube|demihypercube]] family.{{Sfn|Conway, Burgiel &amp; Goodman-Strauss|2008| loc=Chapter 26. Hemicubes: 1&lt;sub&gt;n1&lt;/sub&gt; | p=409 }} It is represented by h{4,3,3} and [[W:Coxeter diagram|Coxeter diagram]]s {{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_h1|4|node|3|node|3|node}} or {{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|nodes_10ru|split2|node|3|node}}. It can be drawn bicolored with alternating [[W:tetrahedron|tetrahedral]] cells.

It can also be seen in lower symmetry form as a '''tetrahedral antiprism''', constructed by 2 parallel [[W:tetrahedron|tetrahedra]] in dual configurations, connected by 8 (possibly elongated) tetrahedra. It is represented by s{2,4,3}, and Coxeter diagram: {{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_h|2x|node_h|4|node|3|node}}.

It can also be seen as a snub 4-[[W:Orthotope|orthotope]], represented by s{2&lt;sup&gt;1,1,1&lt;/sup&gt;}, and Coxeter diagram: {{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_h|2x|node_h|2x|node_h|2x|node_h}} or {{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_h|2x|node_h|split1-22|nodes_hh}}.

With the [[W:Tesseract|tesseract]] constructed as a 4-4 [[W:Duoprism|duoprism]], the 16-cell can be seen as its dual, a 4-4 [[W:Duopyramid|duopyramid]].

{| class=wikitable
!Name
![[W:Coxeter diagram|Coxeter diagram]]
![[W:Schläfli symbol|Schläfli symbol]]
![[W:Coxeter notation|Coxeter notation]]
!Order
![[W:Vertex figure|Vertex figure]]
|- align=center
!Regular 16-cell
|{{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_1|3|node|3|node|4|node}}
|{3,3,4}
|[3,3,4]||384
|{{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_1|3|node|4|node}}
|- align=center
!Demitesseract&lt;br /&gt;[[W:Quasiregular polytope|Quasiregular]] 16-cell
|{{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|nodes_10ru|split2|node|3|node}} = {{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_h1|4|node|3|node|3|node}}&lt;br /&gt;{{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_1|3|node|split1|nodes}} = {{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_1|3|node|3|node|4|node_h0}}
|h{4,3,3}&lt;br /&gt;{3,3&lt;sup&gt;1,1&lt;/sup&gt;}
|[3&lt;sup&gt;1,1,1&lt;/sup&gt;] = [1&lt;sup&gt;+&lt;/sup&gt;,4,3,3]||192
|{{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node|3|node_1|3|node}}
|- align=center
!Alternated 4-4 [[W:Duoprism|duoprism]]
|{{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|label2|branch_hh|4a4b|nodes}}
|2s{4,2,4}
|[[W:4,2&lt;sup&gt;+&lt;/sup&gt;,4|4,2&lt;sup&gt;+&lt;/sup&gt;,4]]||64
|
|- align=center
!Tetrahedral antiprism
|{{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_h|2x|node_h|4|node|3|node}}
|s{2,4,3}
|[2&lt;sup&gt;+&lt;/sup&gt;,4,3]||48
|
|- align=center
!Alternated square prism prism
|{{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_h|2x|node_h|2x|node_h|4|node}}
|sr{2,2,4}
|[(2,2)&lt;sup&gt;+&lt;/sup&gt;,4]||16
|
|- align=center
!Snub 4-[[W:Orthotope|orthotope]]
|{{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_h|2x|node_h|2x|node_h|2x|node_h}} = {{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_h|2x|node_h|split1-22|nodes_hh}}
|s{2&lt;sup&gt;1,1,1&lt;/sup&gt;}
|[2,2,2]&lt;sup&gt;+&lt;/sup&gt; = [2&lt;sup&gt;1,1,1&lt;/sup&gt;]&lt;sup&gt;+&lt;/sup&gt;||8
|{{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_h|2x|node_h|2x|node_h}}
|- align=center
!rowspan=6|4-[[W:Rhombic fusil|fusil]]
|- align=center
|{{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_f1|4|node|3|node|3|node}}
|{3,3,4}
|[3,3,4]||384
|{{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_f1|4|node|3|node}}
|- align=center
|{{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_f1|4|node|2x|node_f1|4|node}}
|{4}+{4} or 2{4}
|&lt;nowiki&gt;[[W:4,2,4|4,2,4]]&lt;/nowiki&gt; = [8,2&lt;sup&gt;+&lt;/sup&gt;,8]||128
|{{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_f1|4|node|2x|node_f1}}
|- align=center
|{{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_f1|4|node|3|node|2x|node_f1}}
|{3,4}+{ }
|[4,3,2]||96
|{{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_f1|4|node|3|node}}&lt;br /&gt;{{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_f1|4|node|2x|node_f1}}
|- align=center
|{{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_f1|4|node|2x|node_f1|2x|node_f1}}
|{4}+2{ }
|[4,2,2]||32
|{{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_f1|4|node|2x|node_f1}}&lt;br /&gt;{{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_f1|2x|node_f1|2x|node_f1}}
|- align=center
|{{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_f1|2x|node_f1|2x|node_f1|2x|node_f1}}
|{ }+{ }+{ }+{ } or 4{ }
|[2,2,2]||16
|{{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_f1|2x|node_f1|2x|node_f1}}
|}

== Related complex polygons ==
The [[W:Möbius–Kantor polygon|Möbius–Kantor polygon]] is a [[W:Regular complex polytope|regular complex polygon]] &lt;sub&gt;3&lt;/sub&gt;{3}&lt;sub&gt;3&lt;/sub&gt;, {{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|3node_1|3|3node}}, in &lt;math&gt;\mathbb{C}^2&lt;/math&gt; shares the same vertices as the 16-cell. It has 8 vertices, and 8 3-edges.{{Sfn|Coxeter|1991|pp=30,47}}{{Sfn|Coxeter &amp; Shephard|1992}}

The regular complex polygon, &lt;sub&gt;2&lt;/sub&gt;{4}&lt;sub&gt;4&lt;/sub&gt;, {{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_1|4|4node}}, in &lt;math&gt;\mathbb{C}^2&lt;/math&gt; has a real representation as a 16-cell in 4-dimensional space with 8 vertices, 16 2-edges, only half of the edges of the 16-cell.  Its symmetry is &lt;sub&gt;4&lt;/sub&gt;[4]&lt;sub&gt;2&lt;/sub&gt;, order 32.{{Sfn|Coxeter|1991|p=108}}

{| class=wikitable width=320
|+ [[W:Orthographic projection|Orthographic projection]]s of &lt;sub&gt;2&lt;/sub&gt;{4}&lt;sub&gt;4&lt;/sub&gt; polygon
|- valign=top
|[[File:Complex polygon 2-4-4.png|160px]]&lt;br /&gt;In B&lt;sub&gt;4&lt;/sub&gt; [[W:Coxeter plane|Coxeter plane]], &lt;sub&gt;2&lt;/sub&gt;{4}&lt;sub&gt;4&lt;/sub&gt; has 8 vertices and 16 2-edges, shown here with 4 sets of colors.
|[[File:Complex polygon 2-4-4 bipartite graph.png|160px]]&lt;br /&gt;The 8 vertices are grouped in 2 sets (shown red and blue), each only connected with edges to vertices in the other set, making this polygon a [[W:Complete bipartite graph|complete bipartite graph]], K&lt;sub&gt;4,4&lt;/sub&gt;.{{Sfn|Coxeter|1991|p=114}}
|}

== Related uniform polytopes and honeycombs ==

The regular 16-cell and [[W:Tesseract|tesseract]] are the regular members of a set of 15 [[W:B4 polytope|uniform 4-polytopes with the same B&lt;sub&gt;4&lt;/sub&gt; symmetry]]. The 16-cell is also one of the [[W:D4 polytope|uniform polytopes of D&lt;sub&gt;4&lt;/sub&gt; symmetry]].

The 16-cell is also related to the [[W:Cubic honeycomb|cubic honeycomb]], [[W:Order-4 dodecahedral honeycomb|order-4 dodecahedral honeycomb]], and [[W:Order-4 hexagonal tiling honeycomb|order-4 hexagonal tiling honeycomb]] which all have [[W:Hexagonal tiling honeycomb#Polytopes and honeycombs with tetrahedral vertex figures|octahedral vertex figures]].

It belongs to the sequence of  [[W:Order-6 tetrahedral honeycomb#Related polytopes and honeycombs|{3,3,p} 4-polytopes]] which have tetrahedral cells. The sequence includes three [[W:Regular 4-polytope|regular 4-polytope]]s of Euclidean 4-space, the [[5-cell]] {3,3,3}, 16-cell {3,3,4}, and [[600-cell]] {3,3,5}), and the [[W:Order-6 tetrahedral honeycomb|order-6 tetrahedral honeycomb]] {3,3,6} of hyperbolic space.

It is first in a sequence of [[W:Tetrahedral-octahedral honeycomb#Quasuiregular honeycombs|quasiregular polytopes and honeycombs]] h{4,p,q}, and a [[W:Order-4 hexagonal tiling honeycomb#Quasiregular honeycombs|half symmetry sequence]], for regular forms {p,3,4}.

== See also ==
*[[24-cell]]
*[[W:4-polytope|4-polytope]]
*[[W:D4 polytope|D4 polytope]]

== Notes ==
{{Regular convex 4-polytopes Notelist|wiki=W:}}

== Citations ==
{{Regular convex 4-polytopes Reflist|wiki=W:}}

== References ==
{{Refbegin}}
{{Regular convex 4-polytopes Refs|wiki=W:}}
{{Refend}}

== External links ==
* [https://bendwavy.org/klitzing/incmats/hex.htm hex], at [https://bendwavy.org/klitzing/home.htm Klitzing polytopes]
* [https://polytope.miraheze.org/wiki/Hexadecachoron Hexadecachoron], at [https://polytope.miraheze.org/wiki/Main_Page Polytope wiki]
* [http://hi.gher.space/wiki/Aerochoron Aerochoron], at [http://hi.gher.space/wiki/Main_Page Higher space]
* [https://www.qfbox.info/4d/uniform Uniform polychora (The tesseract/16-cell family)], at [https://www.qfbox.info/4d/index 4D Euclidean Space]

[[Category:Geometry]]
[[Category:Polyscheme]]</text>
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      <text bytes="58728" sha1="jn5wufjxw81uslcsmgq0q9a4q3zjqtn" xml:space="preserve">{{Short description|Four-dimensional analog of the octahedron}}
{{Polyscheme|radius=an '''expanded version''' of}}
{{Infobox 4-polytope |
  Name=16-cell&lt;br /&gt;(4-orthoplex)|
  Image_File=Schlegel wireframe 16-cell.png|
  Image_Caption=[[W:Schlegel diagram|Schlegel diagram]]&lt;br /&gt;(vertices and edges)|
  Type=[[W:Convex regular 4-polytope|Convex regular 4-polytope]]&lt;br /&gt;4-[[W:Orthoplex|orthoplex]]&lt;br /&gt;4-[[W:Demihypercube|demicube]]|
  Last=[[W:Rectified tesseract|11]]|
  Index=12|
  Next=[[W:Truncated tesseract|13]]|
  Schläfli={3,3,4}|
  CD={{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_1|3|node|3|node|4|node}} |
  Cell_List=16 [[W:Tetrahedron|{3,3}]] [[File:3-simplex t0.svg|25px]]|
  Face_List=32 [[W:Triangle|{3}]] [[File:2-simplex t0.svg|25px]]|
  Edge_Count= 24|
  Vertex_Count= 8|
  Petrie_Polygon=[[W:Octagon|octagon]]|
  Coxeter_Group=B&lt;sub&gt;4&lt;/sub&gt;, [3,3,4], order 384&lt;br /&gt;D&lt;sub&gt;4&lt;/sub&gt;, order 192|
  Vertex_Figure=[[File:16-cell verf.svg|80px]]&lt;br /&gt;[[W:Octahedron|Octahedron]]|
  Dual=[[W:Tesseract|Tesseract]]|
  Property_List=[[W:Convex polytope|convex]], [[W:Isogonal figure|isogonal]], [[W:Isotoxal figure|isotoxal]], [[W:Isohedral figure|isohedral]], [[W:Regular polytope|regular]], [[W:Hanner polytope|Hanner polytope]]
}}
In [[W:Geometry|geometry]], the '''16-cell''' is the [[W:Regular convex 4-polytope|regular convex 4-polytope]] (four-dimensional analogue of a Platonic solid) with [[W:Schläfli symbol|Schläfli symbol]] {3,3,4}. It is one of the six regular convex 4-polytopes first described by the Swiss mathematician [[W:Ludwig Schläfli|Ludwig Schläfli]] in the mid-19th century.{{Sfn|Coxeter|1973|p=141|loc=§&amp;nbsp;7-x. Historical remarks}} It is also called '''C&lt;sub&gt;16&lt;/sub&gt;''', '''hexadecachoron''',&lt;ref&gt;[[W:Norman Johnson (mathematician)|N.W. Johnson]]: ''Geometries and Transformations'', (2018) {{ISBN|978-1-107-10340-5}} Chapter 11: ''Finite Symmetry Groups'', 11.5 ''Spherical Coxeter groups'', p.249&lt;/ref&gt; or '''hexdecahedroid'''.&lt;ref&gt;Matila Ghyka, ''The Geometry of Art and Life'' (1977), p.68&lt;/ref&gt;

It is the 4-dimesional member of an infinite family of polytopes called [[W:Cross-polytope|cross-polytope]]s, ''orthoplexes'', or ''hyperoctahedrons'' which are analogous to the [[W:Cctahedron|octahedron]] in three dimensions. It is Coxeter's &lt;math&gt;\beta_4&lt;/math&gt; polytope.{{Sfn|Coxeter|1973|pp=120=121|loc=§&amp;nbsp;7.2. See illustration Fig 7.2&lt;small&gt;B&lt;/small&gt;}} The [[W:Dual polytope|dual polytope]] is the [[W:Tesseract|tesseract]] (4-[[W:Hypercube|cube]]), which it can be combined with to form [[W:Compound of tesseract and 16-cell|a compound figure]]. The cells of the 16-cell are dual to the 16 vertices of the tesseract.

== Geometry ==
The 16-cell is the second in the sequence of 6 convex regular 4-polytopes (in order of size and complexity).{{Efn|name=4-polytopes ordered by size and complexity|group=}}

Each of its 4 successor convex regular 4-polytopes can be constructed as the [[W:Convex hull|convex hull]] of a [[W:Polytope compound|polytope compound]] of multiple 16-cells: the 16-vertex [[W:Tesseract|tesseract]] as a compound of two 16-cells, the 24-vertex [[24-cell]] as a compound of three 16-cells, the 120-vertex [[600-cell]] as a compound of fifteen 16-cells, and the 600-vertex [[120-cell]] as a compound of seventy-five 16-cells.{{Efn|There are 2 and only 2 16-cells inscribed in the 8-cell (tesseract), 3 and only 3 16-cells inscribed in the 24-cell, 75 distinct 16-cells (but only 15 disjoint 16-cells) inscribed in the 600-cell, and 675 distinct 16-cells (but only 75 disjoint 16-cells) inscribed in the 120-cell.}}

{{Regular convex 4-polytopes|wiki=W:}}

=== Coordinates ===
{| class=&quot;wikitable floatright&quot;
!colspan=2|Disjoint squares
|-
|
{| class=&quot;wikitable&quot; style=&quot;white-space:nowrap;&quot;
!colspan=2|''xy'' plane
|-
|( 0, 1, 0, 0)||( 0, 0,-1, 0)
|-
|( 0, 0, 1, 0)||( 0,-1, 0, 0)
|}
|-
|
{| class=&quot;wikitable&quot; style=&quot;white-space:nowrap;&quot;
!colspan=2|''wz'' plane
|-
|( 1, 0, 0, 0)||( 0, 0, 0,-1)
|-
|( 0, 0, 0, 1)||(-1, 0, 0, 0)
|}
|}The 16-cell is the 4-dimensional [[W:Cross polytope|cross polytope (4-orthoplex)]], which means its vertices lie in opposite pairs on the 4 axes of a (w, x, y, z) Cartesian coordinate system.

The eight vertices are (±1, 0, 0, 0), (0, ±1, 0, 0), (0, 0, ±1, 0), (0, 0, 0, ±1). All vertices are connected by edges except opposite pairs. The edge length is {{radic|2}}.

The vertex coordinates form 6 [[W:Orthogonal|orthogonal]] central squares lying in the 6 coordinate planes. Squares in ''opposite'' planes that do not share an axis (e.g. in the ''xy'' and ''wz'' planes) are completely disjoint (they do not intersect at any vertices). These planes are [[W:Completely orthogonal|completely orthogonal]].{{Efn|name=Six orthogonal planes of the Cartesian basis}}

The 16-cell constitutes an [[W:Orthonormal basis|orthonormal ''basis'']] for the choice of a 4-dimensional reference frame, because its vertices exactly define the four orthogonal axes.

=== Structure ===
The [[W:Schläfli symbol|Schläfli symbol]] of the 16-cell is {3,3,4}, indicating that its cells are [[W:Regular tetrahedron|regular tetrahedra]] {3,3} and its [[W:Vertex figure|vertex figure]] is a [[W:Regular octahedron|regular octahedron]] {3,4}. There are 8 tetrahedra, 12 triangles, and 6 edges meeting at every vertex. Its [[W:Edge figure|edge figure]] is a square. There are 4 tetrahedra and 4 triangles meeting at every edge.

The 16-cell is [[W:Totally bounded|bounded]] by 16 [[W:Cell (mathematics)|cells]], all of which are regular [[W:Tetrahedron|tetrahedra]].{{Efn|The boundary surface of a 16-cell is a finite 3-dimensional space consisting of 16 tetrahedra arranged face-to-face (four around one). It is a closed, tightly curved (non-Euclidean) 3-space, within which we can move straight through 4 tetrahedra in any direction and arrive back in the tetrahedron where we started. We can visualize moving around inside this tetrahedral [[W:Jungle gym|jungle gym]], climbing from one tetrahedron into another on its 24 struts (its edges), and never being able to get out (or see out) of the 16 tetrahedra no matter what direction we go (or look). We are always on (or in) the ''surface'' of the 16-cell, never inside the 16-cell itself (nor outside it). We can see that the 6 edges around each vertex radiate symmetrically in 3 dimensions and form an orthogonal 3-axis cross, just as the radii of an octahedron do (so we say the vertex figure of the 16-cell is the octahedron).{{Efn|name=octahedral pyramid}}}} It has 32 [[W:Triangle (geometry)|triangular]] [[W:Face (geometry)|faces]], 24 [[W:Edge (geometry)|edges]], and 8 [[W:Vertex (geometry)|vertices]]. The 24 edges bound 6 [[W:Orthogonal|orthogonal]] central squares lying on [[W:Great circle|great circles]] in the 6 coordinate planes (3 pairs of completely orthogonal great squares). At each vertex, 3 great squares cross perpendicularly. The 6 edges meet at the vertex the way 6 edges meet at the [[W:Apex (geometry)|apex]] of a canonical [[W:Octahedral pyramid|octahedral pyramid]].{{Efn|Each vertex in the 16-cell is the apex of an [[W:Octahedral pyramid|octahedral pyramid]], the base of which is the octahedron formed by the 6 other vertices to which the apex is connected by edges. The 16-cell can be deconstructed (four different ways) into two octahedral pyramids by cutting it in half through one of its four octahedral central hyperplanes. Looked at from inside the curved 3 dimensional volume of its boundary surface of 16 face-bonded tetrahedra, the 16-cell's vertex figure is an octahedron. In 4 dimensions, the vertex octahedron is actually an octahedral pyramid. The apex of the octahedral pyramid (the vertex where the 6 edges meet) is not actually at the center of the octahedron: it is displaced radially outwards in the fourth dimension, out of the hyperplane defined by the octahedron's 6 vertices. The 6 edges around the vertex make an orthogonal 3-axis cross in 3 dimensions (and in the [[W:Octahedral pyramid|3-dimensional projection of the 4-pyramid]]), but the 3 lines are actually bent 90 degrees in the fourth dimension where they meet in an apex.|name=octahedral pyramid}} The 6 orthogonal central planes of the 16-cell can be divided into 4 orthogonal central hyperplanes (3-spaces) each forming an [[W:Octahedron|octahedron]] with 3 orthogonal great squares.

=== Rotations ===
{| class=&quot;wikitable&quot; width=480
|- align=center valign=top
|rowspan=2|[[File:16-cell.gif]]&lt;br /&gt;A 3D projection of a 16-cell performing a [[W:SO(4)#Simple rotations|simple rotation]]
|[[File:16-cell-orig.gif]]&lt;br /&gt;A 3D projection of a 16-cell performing a [[W:SO(4)#Double rotations|double rotation]]
|}
[[W:Rotations in 4-dimensional Euclidean space|Rotations in 4-dimensional Euclidean space]] can be seen as the composition of two 2-dimensional rotations in [[w:Completely_orthogonal|completely orthogonal]] planes.{{Sfn|Kim|Rote|2016|p=6|loc=§&amp;nbsp;5. Four-Dimensional Rotations}} The 16-cell is a simple frame in which to observe 4-dimensional rotations, because each of the 16-cell's 6 great squares has another completely orthogonal great square (there are 3 pairs of completely orthogonal squares).{{Efn|name=Six orthogonal planes of the Cartesian basis}} Many rotations of the 16-cell can be characterized by the angle of rotation in one of its great square planes (e.g. the ''xy'' plane) and another angle of rotation in the completely orthogonal great square plane (the ''wz'' plane).{{Efn|Each great square vertex is {{radic|2}} distant from two of the square's other vertices, and {{radic|4}} distant from its opposite vertex. The other four vertices of the 16-cell (also {{radic|2}} distant) are the vertices of the square's completely orthogonal square.{{Efn|name=Clifford parallel great squares}} Each 16-cell vertex is a vertex of ''three'' orthogonal great squares which intersect there. Each great square has a different ''completely'' orthogonal great square. Thus there are three great squares completely orthogonal to each vertex: squares that the vertex is not part of.{{Efn|The three ''incompletely'' orthogonal great squares which intersect at each vertex of the 16-cell form the vertex's octahedral [[W:Vertex figure|vertex figure]].{{Efn|name=octahedral pyramid}} Any two of them, together with the completely orthogonal square of the third, also form an octahedron: a central octahedral hyperplane.{{Efn|Three great squares meet at each vertex (and at its opposite vertex) in the 16-cell. Each of them has a different completely orthogonal square. Thus there are three great squares completely orthogonal to each vertex and its opposite vertex (each axis). They form an octahedron (a central hyperplane). Every axis line in the 16-cell is completely orthogonal to a central octahedron hyperplane, as every great square plane is completely orthogonal to another great square plane.{{Efn|name=Six orthogonal planes of the Cartesian basis}} The axis and the octahedron intersect only at one point (the center of the 16-cell), as each pair of completely orthogonal great squares intersects only at one point (the center of the 16-cell). Each central octahedron is also the octahedral vertex figure of two of the eight vertices: the two on its completely orthogonal axis.|name=octahedral hyperplanes}} In the 16-cell, each octahedral vertex figure is also a central octahedral hyperplane.|name=completely orthogonal great squares}}|name=vertex and central octahedra}} Completely orthogonal great squares have disjoint vertices: 4 of the 16-cell's 8 vertices rotate in one plane, and the other 4 rotate independently in the completely orthogonal plane.{{Efn|Completely orthogonal great squares are non-intersecting and rotate independently because the great circles on which their vertices lie are [[W:Clifford parallel|Clifford parallel]].{{Efn|[[W:Clifford parallel|Clifford parallel]]s are non-intersecting curved lines that are parallel in the sense that the perpendicular (shortest) distance between them is the same at each point.{{Sfn|Tyrrell &amp; Semple|1971|loc=§&amp;nbsp;3. Clifford's original definition of parallelism|pp=5-6}} A double helix is an example of Clifford parallelism in ordinary 3-dimensional Euclidean space. In 4-space Clifford parallels occur as geodesic great circles on the [[W:3-sphere|3-sphere]].{{Sfn|Kim|Rote|2016|pp=7-10|loc=§&amp;nbsp;6. Angles between two Planes in 4-Space}} In the 16-cell the corresponding vertices of completely orthogonal great circle squares are all {{radic|2}} apart, so these squares are Clifford parallel polygons.{{Efn|name=completely orthogonal Clifford parallels are special}} Note that only the vertices of the great squares (the points on the great circle) are {{radic|2}} apart; points on the edges of the squares (on chords of the circle) are closer together.|name=Clifford parallels}} They are {{radic|2}} apart at each pair of nearest vertices (and in the 16-cell ''all'' the pairs except antipodal pairs are nearest). The two squares cannot intersect at all because they lie in planes which intersect at only one point: the center of the 16-cell.{{Efn|name=Six orthogonal planes of the Cartesian basis}} Because they are perpendicular and share a common center, the two squares are obviously not parallel and separate in the usual way of parallel squares in 3 dimensions; rather they are connected like adjacent square links in a chain, each passing through the other without intersecting at any points, forming a [[W:Hopf link|Hopf link]].|name=Clifford parallel great squares}}

In 2 or 3 dimensions a rotation is characterized by a single plane of rotation; this kind of rotation taking place in 4-space is called a [[W:Rotations in 4-dimensional Euclidean space#Simple rotations|simple rotation]], in which only one of the two completely orthogonal planes rotates (the angle of rotation in the other plane is 0). In the 16-cell, a simple rotation in one of the 6 orthogonal planes moves only 4 of the 8 vertices; the other 4 remain fixed. (In the simple rotation animation above, all 8 vertices move because the plane of rotation is not one of the 6 orthogonal basis planes.)

In a [[W:Rotations in 4-dimensional Euclidean space#Double rotations|double rotation]] both sets of 4 vertices move, but independently: the angles of rotation may be different in the 2 completely orthogonal planes. If the two angles happen to be the same, a maximally symmetric [[W:Rotations in 4-dimensional Euclidean space#Isoclinic rotations|isoclinic rotation]] takes place.{{Efn|In an isoclinic rotation, all 6 orthogonal planes are displaced in two orthogonal directions at once: they are rotated by the angle, and at the same time they are tilted ''sideways'' by that same angle. An isoclinic displacement (also known as a [[W:William Kingdon Clifford|Clifford]] displacement) is 4-dimensionally diagonal. Points are displaced an equal distance in four orthogonal directions at once, and displaced a total [[W:Pythagorean distance#Higher dimensions|Pythagorean distance]] equal to the square root of four times the square of that distance (which is two times that distance). For example, when the unit-radius 16-cell rotates isoclinically 90° in a great square invariant plane, it also rotates 90° in the completely orthogonal great square invariant plane.{{Efn||name=Six orthogonal planes of the Cartesian basis}} The great square plane tilts sideways 90° to occupy its completely orthogonal plane. (By isoclinic symmetry, ''every'' great square plane rotates 90° ''and'' tilts sideways 90° into its completely orthogonal plane.) Each vertex (in every great square) is displaced to its antipodal vertex, at a distance of {{radic|1}} in each of four orthogonal directions, a total distance of {{radic|4}}. The original and displaced vertex are two edge lengths apart by three{{Efn|There are six different two-edge paths connecting a pair of antipodal vertices along the edges of a great square. The left isoclinic rotation runs diagonally between three of them, and the right isoclinic rotation runs diagonally between the other three. These diagonals are the straight lines (geodesics) connecting opposite vertices of face-bonded tetrahedral cells in the left-handed [[#Helical construction|eight-cell ring]] and the right-handed eight-cell ring, respectively.}} different paths along two edges of a great square. But the ''isocline'' (the helical arc the vertex follows during the isoclinic rotation) does not run along edges: it runs ''between'' these different edge-paths diagonally, on a geodesic (shortest arc) between the original and displaced vertices.{{Efn|name=isocline}} This isoclinic geodesic arc is not a segment of an ordinary great circle; it does not lie in the plane of any great square. It is a helical 180° arc that bends in a circle in two completely orthogonal planes at once. This [[W:Möbius loop|Möbius circle]] does not lie in any one great circle plane, or intersect any vertices of the 16-cell between the original and the displaced vertex.{{Efn|name=Möbius circle}}|name=isoclinic rotation}} In the 16-cell an isoclinic rotation by 90 degrees of any pair of completely orthogonal square planes takes every square plane to its completely orthogonal square plane.{{Efn|The 90 degree isoclinic rotation of two completely orthogonal planes takes them to each other. In such a rotation of a rigid 16-cell, all 6 orthogonal planes rotate by 90 degrees, and also tilt sideways by 90 degrees to their completely orthogonal (Clifford parallel){{Efn|name=Clifford parallels}} plane.{{Sfn|Kim|Rote|2016|pp=8-10|loc=Relations to Clifford Parallelism}} The corresponding vertices of the two completely orthogonal great squares are {{radic|4}} (180°) apart; the great squares (Clifford parallel polytopes) are {{radic|4}} (180°) apart; but the two completely orthogonal ''planes'' are 90° apart, in the ''two'' orthogonal angles that separate them. If the isoclinic rotation is continued through another 90°, each vertex completes a 360° rotation and each great square returns to its original plane, but in a different orientation (axes swapped): it has been turned &quot;upside down&quot; on the surface of the 16-cell (which is now &quot;inside out&quot;). Continuing through a second 360° isoclinic rotation (through four 90° by 90° isoclinic steps, a 720° rotation) returns everything to its original place and orientation.|name=exchange of completely orthogonal planes}}

=== Constructions ===

==== Octahedral dipyramid ====
{|class=&quot;wikitable floatright&quot;
!Octahedron &lt;math&gt;\beta_3&lt;/math&gt;
!16-cell &lt;math&gt;\beta_4&lt;/math&gt;
|-
|[[File:3-cube t2.svg|160px]]
|[[File:4-demicube t0 D4.svg|160px]]
|-
|colspan=2|Orthogonal projections to skew hexagon hyperplane
|}
The simplest construction of the 16-cell is on the 3-dimensional cross polytope, the [[W:Octahedron|octahedron]]. The octahedron has 3 perpendicular axes and 6 vertices in 3 opposite pairs (its [[W:Petrie polygon|Petrie polygon]] is the [[W:Hexagon|hexagon]]). Add another pair of vertices, on a fourth axis perpendicular to all 3 of the other axes. Connect each new vertex to all 6 of the original vertices, adding 12 new edges. This raises two [[W:Octahedral pyramid|octahedral pyramid]]s on a shared octahedron base that lies in the 16-cell's central hyperplane.{{Sfn|Coxeter|1973|p=121|loc=§&amp;nbsp;7.21. See illustration Fig 7.2&lt;small&gt;B&lt;/small&gt;|ps=: &quot;&lt;math&gt;\beta_4&lt;/math&gt; is a four-dimensional dipyramid based on &lt;math&gt;\beta_3&lt;/math&gt; (with its two apices in opposite directions along the fourth dimension).&quot;}}

[[File:stereographic_polytope_16cell_colour.png|thumb|[[W:Stereographic projection|Stereographic projection]] of the 16-cell's 6 orthogonal central squares onto their great circles. Each circle is divided into 4 arc-edges at the intersections where 3 circles cross perpendicularly. Notice that each circle has one Clifford parallel circle that it does ''not'' intersect. Those two circles pass through each other like adjacent links in a chain.]]The octahedron that the construction starts with has three perpendicular intersecting squares (which appear as rectangles in the hexagonal projections). Each square intersects with each of the other squares at two opposite vertices, with ''two'' of the squares crossing at each vertex. Then two more points are added in the fourth dimension (above and below the 3-dimensional hyperplane). These new vertices are connected to all the octahedron's vertices, creating 12 new edges and ''three more squares'' (which appear edge-on as the 3 ''diameters'' of the hexagon in the projection), and three more octahedra.{{Efn|name=octahedral hyperplanes}}

Something unprecedented has also been created. Notice that each square no longer intersects with ''all'' of the other squares: it does intersect with four of them (with ''three'' of the squares crossing at each vertex now), but each square has ''one'' other square with which it shares ''no'' vertices: it is not directly connected to that square at all. These two ''separate'' perpendicular squares (there are three pairs of them) are like the opposite edges of a [[W:Tetrahedron|tetrahedron]]: perpendicular, but non-intersecting. They lie opposite each other (parallel in some sense), and they don't touch, but they also pass through each other like two perpendicular links in a chain (but unlike links in a chain they have a common center). They are an example of '''''Clifford parallels''''', and the 16-cell is the simplest regular polytope in which they occur. [[W:William Kingdon Clifford|Clifford]] parallelism{{Efn|name=Clifford parallels}} of objects of more than one dimension (more than just curved ''lines'') emerges here and occurs in all the subsequent 4-dimensional regular polytopes, where it can be seen as the defining relationship ''among'' disjoint concentric regular 4-polytopes and their corresponding parts. It can occur between congruent (similar) polytopes of 2 or more dimensions.{{Sfn|Tyrrell &amp; Semple|1971}} For example, as noted [[#Geometry|above]] all the subsequent convex regular 4-polytopes are compounds of multiple 16-cells; those 16-cells are [[24-cell#Clifford parallel polytopes|Clifford parallel polytopes]].

==== Tetrahedral constructions ====
{| class=&quot;wikitable&quot; width=480
|- align=center valign=top
|[[File:16-cell net.png|180px|]]
|[[File:16-cell nets.png|180px]]
|}

The 16-cell has two [[W:Wythoff construction|Wythoff construction]]s from regular tetrahedra, a regular form and alternated form, shown here as [[W:Net (polyhedron)|nets]], the second represented by tetrahedral cells of two alternating colors. The alternated form is a [[#Symmetry constructions|lower symmetry construction]] of the 16-cell called the [[W:Demitesseract|demitesseract]].

Wythoff's construction replicates the 16-cell's [[5-cell#Orthoschemes|characteristic 5-cell]] in a [[W:Kaleidoscope|kaleidoscope]] of mirrors. Every regular 4-polytope has its characteristic 4-orthoscheme, an [[5-cell#Irregular 5-cells|irregular 5-cell]].{{Efn|An [[W:Orthoscheme|orthoscheme]] is a [[W:Chiral|chiral]] irregular [[W:simplex|simplex]] with [[W:Right triangle|right triangle]] faces that is characteristic of some polytope if it will exactly fill that polytope with the reflections of itself in its own [[W:Facet (geometry)|facets]] (its ''mirror walls''). Every regular polytope can be dissected radially into instances of its [[W:Orthoscheme#Characteristic simplex of the general regular polytope|characteristic orthoscheme]] surrounding its center. The characteristic orthoscheme has the shape described by the same [[W:Coxeter-Dynkin diagram|Coxeter-Dynkin diagram]] as the regular polytope without the ''generating point'' ring.|name=characteristic orthoscheme}} There are three regular 4-polytopes with tetrahedral cells: the [[5-cell]], the 16-cell, and the [[600-cell]]. Although all are bounded by ''regular'' tetrahedron cells, their characteristic 5-cells (4-orthoschemes) are different [[5-cell#Isometries|tetrahedral pyramids]], all based on the same characteristic ''irregular'' tetrahedron. They share the same [[W:Tetrahedron#Orthoschemes|characteristic tetrahedron]] (3-orthoscheme) and characteristic [[W:Right triangle|right triangle]] (2-orthoscheme) because they have the same kind of cell.{{Efn|A regular polytope of dimension ''k'' has a characteristic ''k''-orthoscheme, and also a characteristic (''k''-1)-orthoscheme. A regular 4-polytope has a characteristic 5-cell (4-orthoscheme) into which it is subdivided by its (3-dimensional) hyperplanes of symmetry, and also a characteristic tetrahedron (3-orthoscheme) into which its surface is subdivided by its cells' (2-dimensional) planes of symmetry. After subdividing its (3-dimensional) surface into characteristic tetrahedra surrounding each cell center, its (4-dimensional) interior can be subdivided into characteristic 5-cells by adding radii joining the vertices of the surface characteristic tetrahedra to the 4-polytope's center.{{Sfn|Coxeter|1973|p=130|loc=§&amp;nbsp;7.6|ps=; &quot;simplicial subdivision&quot;.}} The interior tetrahedra and triangles thus formed will also be orthoschemes.}}

{| class=&quot;wikitable floatright&quot;
!colspan=6|Characteristics of the 16-cell{{Sfn|Coxeter|1973|pp=292-293|loc=Table I(ii); &quot;16-cell, 𝛽&lt;sub&gt;4&lt;/sub&gt;&quot;}}
|-
!align=right|
!align=center|edge{{Sfn|Coxeter|1973|p=139|loc=§&amp;nbsp;7.9 The characteristic simplex}}
!colspan=2 align=center|arc
!colspan=2 align=center|dihedral{{Sfn|Coxeter|1973|p=290|loc=Table I(ii); &quot;dihedral angles&quot;}}
|-
!align=right|𝒍
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2} \approx 1.414&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;90°&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\tfrac{\pi}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;120°&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\tfrac{2\pi}{3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|
|
|
|
|
|-
!align=right|𝟀
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\tfrac{2}{3}} \approx 0.816&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;60″&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\tfrac{\pi}{3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;60°&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\tfrac{\pi}{3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
!align=right|𝝉{{Efn|{{Harv|Coxeter|1973}} uses the greek letter 𝝓 (phi) to represent one of the three ''characteristic angles'' 𝟀, 𝝓, 𝟁 of a regular polytope. Because 𝝓 is commonly used to represent the [[W:Golden ratio|golden ratio]] constant ≈ 1.618, for which Coxeter uses 𝝉 (tau), we reverse Coxeter's conventions, and use 𝝉 to represent the characteristic angle.|name=reversed greek symbols}}
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\tfrac{1}{2}} \approx 0.707&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;45″&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\tfrac{\pi}{4}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;45°&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\tfrac{\pi}{4}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
!align=right|𝟁
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\tfrac{1}{6}} \approx 0.408&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;30″&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\tfrac{\pi}{6}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;60°&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\tfrac{\pi}{3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|
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|-
!align=right|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;_0R^3/l&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\tfrac{3}{4}} \approx 0.866&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;60°&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\tfrac{\pi}{3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;90°&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\tfrac{\pi}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
!align=right|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;_1R^3/l&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\tfrac{1}{4}} = 0.5&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;45°&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\tfrac{\pi}{4}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;90°&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\tfrac{\pi}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
!align=right|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;_2R^3/l&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\tfrac{1}{12}} \approx 0.289&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;30°&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\tfrac{\pi}{6}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;90°&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\tfrac{\pi}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
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|-
!align=right|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;_0R^4/l&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|
|align=center|
|align=center|
|align=center|
|-
!align=right|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;_1R^4/l&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\tfrac{1}{2}} \approx 0.707&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|
|align=center|
|align=center|
|align=center|
|-
!align=right|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;_2R^4/l&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\tfrac{1}{3}} \approx 0.577&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|
|align=center|
|align=center|
|align=center|
|-
!align=right|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;_3R^4/l&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\tfrac{1}{4}} = 0.5&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|
|align=center|
|align=center|
|align=center|
|}
The '''characteristic 5-cell of the regular 16-cell''' is represented by the [[W:Coxeter-Dynkin diagram|Coxeter-Dynkin diagram]] {{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node|3|node|3|node|4|node}}, which can be read as a list of the dihedral angles between its mirror facets. It is an irregular [[W:Pyramid (mathematics)#Polyhedral pyramid|tetrahedral pyramid]] based on the [[W:Tetrahedron#Orthoschemes|characteristic tetrahedron of the regular tetrahedron]]. The regular 16-cell is subdivided by its symmetry hyperplanes into 384 instances of its characteristic 5-cell that all meet at its center.

The characteristic 5-cell (4-orthoscheme) has four more edges than its base characteristic tetrahedron (3-orthoscheme), joining the four vertices of the base to its apex (the fifth vertex of the 4-orthoscheme, at the center of the regular 16-cell).{{Efn|The four edges of each 4-orthoscheme which meet at the center of a regular 4-polytope are of unequal length, because they are the four characteristic radii of the regular 4-polytope: a vertex radius, an edge center radius, a face center radius, and a cell center radius. The five vertices of the 4-orthoscheme always include one regular 4-polytope vertex, one regular 4-polytope edge center, one regular 4-polytope face center, one regular 4-polytope cell center, and the regular 4-polytope center. Those five vertices (in that order) comprise a path along four mutually perpendicular edges (that makes three right angle turns), the characteristic feature of a 4-orthoscheme. The 4-orthoscheme has five dissimilar 3-orthoscheme facets.|name=characteristic radii}} If the regular 16-cell has unit radius edge and edge length 𝒍 = &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;, its characteristic 5-cell's ten edges have lengths &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\tfrac{2}{3}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;, &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\tfrac{1}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;, &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\tfrac{1}{6}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; around its exterior right-triangle face (the edges opposite the ''characteristic angles'' 𝟀, 𝝉, 𝟁),{{Efn|name=reversed greek symbols}} plus &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\tfrac{3}{4}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;, &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\tfrac{1}{4}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;, &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\tfrac{1}{12}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; (the other three edges of the exterior 3-orthoscheme facet the characteristic tetrahedron, which are the ''characteristic radii'' of the regular tetrahedron), plus &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;, &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\tfrac{1}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;, &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\tfrac{1}{3}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;, &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\tfrac{1}{4}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; (edges which are the characteristic radii of the regular 16-cell). The 4-edge path along orthogonal edges of the orthoscheme is &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\tfrac{1}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;, &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\tfrac{1}{6}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;, &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\tfrac{1}{4}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;, &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\tfrac{1}{4}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;, first from a 16-cell vertex to a 16-cell edge center, then turning 90° to a 16-cell face center, then turning 90° to a 16-cell tetrahedral cell center, then turning 90° to the 16-cell center.

==== Helical construction ====
[[File:Eight face-bonded tetrahedra.jpg|thumb|A 4-dimensional ring of 8 face-bonded tetrahedra, seen in the [[W:Boerdijk–Coxeter helix|Boerdijk–Coxeter helix]], bounded by three eight-edge circular paths of different colors, cut and laid out flat in 3-dimensional space. It contains an ''isocline'' axis (not shown), a helical circle of circumference 4𝝅 that twists through all four dimensions and visits all 8 vertices.{{Efn|name=isocline}} The two blue-blue-yellow triangles at either end of the cut ring are the same object.]]
[[File:16-cell 8-ring net4.png|thumb|Net and orthogonal projection]]

A 16-cell can be constructed (three different ways) from two [[W:Boerdijk–Coxeter helix|Boerdijk–Coxeter helix]]es of eight chained tetrahedra, each bent in the fourth dimension into a ring.{{Sfn|Coxeter|1970|loc=Table 2: Reflexible honeycombs and their groups|p=45|ps=; Honeycomb [3,3,4]&lt;sub&gt;4&lt;/sub&gt; is a tiling of the 3-sphere by 2 rings of 8 tetrahedral cells.}}{{Sfn|Banchoff|2013}} The two circular helixes share the same 8 vertices and 24 edges, but their tetrahedra are disjoint. The helixes spiral around each other, nest into each other and pass through each other forming a [[W:Hopf link|Hopf link]]. 16 of the 32 triangle faces can be seen in a 2D net within a [[W:Triangular tiling|triangular tiling]], with 6 triangles around every vertex. The [[W:Petrie polygon|Petrie polygon]] of the 16-cell is a skew octagon, visible as the purple edges in the octagon orthogonal projection, and as the light blue edges in the tetrahedral helix. Each eight-cell ring of tetrahedra actually contains three such skew [[W:Octagram|octagram]]s of different colors, eight-edge circular paths that wind twice around the 16-cell on every third vertex of the octagram. The orange and yellow edges are two four-edge halves of one skew octagram, which join their ends to form a [[W:Möbius strip|Möbius strip]].

Thus the 16-cell can be decomposed into two cell-disjoint circular chains of eight tetrahedrons each, four edges long, one spiraling to the right (clockwise) and the other spiraling to the left (counterclockwise). The left-handed and right-handed cell rings fit together, nesting into each other and entirely filling the 16-cell, even though they are of opposite chirality. This decomposition can be seen in a 4-4 [[W:Duoantiprism|duoantiprism]] construction of the 16-cell: {{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_h|2x|node_h|2x|node_h|2x|node_h}} or {{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node|4|node_h|2x|node_h|4|node}}, [[W:Schläfli symbol|Schläfli symbol]] {2}⨂{2} or s{2}s{2}, [[W:Coxeter notation|symmetry]] [4,2&lt;sup&gt;+&lt;/sup&gt;,4], order 64.

Three eight-edge paths (of different colors) spiral along each eight-cell ring, making 90° angles at each vertex. (In the Boerdijk–Coxeter helix before it is bent into a ring, the angles in different paths vary, but are not 90°.) Three paths (with three different colors and apparent angles) pass through each vertex. When the helix is bent into a ring, the segments of each eight-edge path (of various lengths) join their ends, forming a Möbius strip eight edges long along its single-sided circumference of 4𝝅, and one edge wide.{{Efn|name=Möbius circle}} The six four-edge halves of the three eight-edge paths each make four 90° angles, but they are ''not'' the six orthogonal great squares: they are open-ended squares, four-edge 360° helices whose open ends are [[W:Antipodal point|antipodal]] vertices. The four edges come from four different great squares, and are mutually orthogonal. Combined end-to-end in pairs of the same [[W:Chirality|chirality]], the six four-edge paths make three eight-edge Möbius loops, [[W:Helix|helical]] octagrams. Each octagram is both a [[W:Petrie polygon|Petrie polygon]] of the 16-cell, and the helical track along which all eight vertices rotate together, in one of the 16-cell's distinct isoclinic [[#Rotations|rotations]].{{Efn|The 16-cell can be constructed from two cell-disjoint eight-cell rings in three different ways; it has three orientations of its pair of rings. Each orientation &quot;contains&quot; a distinct left-right pair of isoclinic rotations, and also a pair of completely orthogonal great squares (Clifford parallel fibers), so each orientation is a discrete [[W:Hopf fibration|fibration]] of the 16-cell. Each eight-cell ring contains three axial octagrams which have different orientations (they exchange roles) in the three discrete fibrations and six distinct isoclinic rotations (three left and three right) through the cell rings. Three octagrams (of different colors) can be seen in the illustration of a single cell ring, one in the role of Petrie polygon, one as the right isocline, and one as the left isocline. Because each octagram plays three roles, there are exactly six distinct isoclines in the 16-cell, not 18.|name=only one disjoint pair of eight-cell rings}}

{| class=&quot;wikitable&quot; width=610
!colspan=5|Five ways of looking at the same [[W:Skew polygon|skew]] [[W:Octagram|octagram]]{{Efn|All five views are the same orthogonal projection of the 16-cell into the same plane (a circular cross-section of the eight-cell ring cylinder), looking along the central axis of the cut ring cylinder pictured above, from one end of the cylinder. The only difference is which {{radic|2}} edges and {{radic|4}} chords are ''omitted'' for focus. The different colors of {{radic|2}} edges appear to be of different lengths because they are oblique to the viewer at different angles. Vertices are numbered 1 (top) through 8 in counterclockwise order.}}
|-
![[#Rotations|Edge path]]
![[W:Petrie polygon#The Petrie polygon of regular polychora (4-polytopes)|Petrie polygon]]{{Sfn|Coxeter|1973|pp=292-293|loc=Table I(ii); 24-cell ''h&lt;sub&gt;1&lt;/sub&gt;''}}
!16-cell
![[W:Hopf fibration|Discrete fibration]]
![[#Coordinates|Diameter chords]]
|-
![[W:Octagram|Octagram]]&lt;sub&gt;{8/3}&lt;/sub&gt;{{Sfn|Coxeter|1973|pp=292-293|loc=Table I(ii); 24-cell ''h&lt;sub&gt;2&lt;/sub&gt;''}}
![[W:Petrie polygon#The Petrie polygon of regular polychora (4-polytopes)|Octagram]]&lt;sub&gt;{8/1}&lt;/sub&gt;
![[W:Coxeter element#Coxeter plane|Coxeter plane]] [[W:B4 polytope|B&lt;sub&gt;4&lt;/sub&gt;]]
![[W:Octagram#Star polygon compounds|Octagram]]&lt;sub&gt;{8/2}=2{4}&lt;/sub&gt;
![[W:Octagram#Star polygon compounds|Octagram]]&lt;sub&gt;{8/4}=4{2}&lt;/sub&gt;
|-
|align=center|[[File:16-cell skew octagram (8-3).png|120px]]
|align=center|[[File:16-cell skew octagram (8).png|120px]]
|align=center|[[File:16-cell skew octagram.png|120px]]
|align=center|[[File:16-cell skew octagram 2(4).png|120px]]
|align=center|[[File:16-cell skew octagram 4(2).png|120px]]
|-
|The eight {{radic|2}} chords of the edge-path of an isocline.{{Efn|name=isocline curve}}
|Skew [[W:Octagon|octagon]] of eight {{radic|2}} edges. The 16-cell has 3 of these 8-vertex circuits.
|All 24 {{radic|2}} edges and the four {{radic|4}} orthogonal axes.
|Two completely orthogonal (disjoint) great squares of {{radic|2}} edges.{{Efn|name=Clifford parallel great squares}}
|The four {{radic|4}} chords of an isocline. Every fourth isocline vertex is joined to its antipodal vertex by a 16-cell axis.{{Efn|Each isocline has the eight continuous {{radic|2}} chords of its octagram&lt;sub&gt;{8/3}&lt;/sub&gt; edge-path, and also four discontinuous {{radic|4}} diameter chords that connect every ''fourth'' vertex on the octagram but do not connect to each other. Antipodal vertices also have a twisted continuous path of four mutually orthogonal {{radic|2}} edges connecting them. Between antipodal vertices, the isocline curves smoothly around in a helix over the four {{radic|2}} chords of its edge-path, hitting the three intervening vertices. Each {{radic|2}} edge is an edge of a great square, that is completely orthogonal to another great square, in which the {{radic|4}} chord is a diagonal.|name=isocline curve}}
|}
Each eight-edge helix is a [[W:Skew polygon|skew]] [[W:Octagram|octagram]]&lt;sub&gt;{8/3}&lt;/sub&gt; that [[W:Winding number|winds three times]] around the 16-cell and visits every vertex before closing into a loop. Its eight {{radic|2}} edges are chords of an ''isocline'', a helical geodesic on which the 8 vertices circle during an isoclinic rotation.{{Efn|An isocline is a circle of special kind corresponding to a pair of [[W:Villarceau circle|Villarceau circle]]s linked in a [[W:Möbius loop|Möbius loop]]. It curves through four dimensions instead of just two. All ordinary circles have a 2𝝅 circumference, but the 16-cell's isocline is a circle with an 4𝝅 circumference (over eight 90° chords). An isocline is a circle that does not lie in a plane, but to avoid confusion we always refer to it as an ''isocline'' and reserve the term ''circle'' for an ordinary circle in the plane.|name=Möbius circle}} All eight 16-cell vertices are {{radic|2}} apart except for opposite (antipodal) vertices, which are {{radic|4}} apart. A vertex moving on the isocline visits three other vertices that are {{radic|2}} apart before reaching the fourth vertex that is {{radic|4}} away.{{Efn|In the 16-cell, two antipodal vertices are opposite vertices of two face-bonded tetrahedral cells. The two antipodal vertices are connected by (three different) two-edge great circle paths along edges of the tetrahedral cells, by various three-edge paths, and by four-edge paths on isoclines and Petrie polygons. {{Efn|name=Möbius circle}}|name=isocline}}

The eight-cell ring is [[W:Chiral|chiral]]: there is a right-handed form which spirals clockwise, and a left-handed form which spirals counterclockwise. The 16-cell contains one of each, so it also contains a left and a right isocline; the isocline is the circular axis around which the eight-cell ring twists. Each isocline visits all eight vertices of the 16-cell.{{Efn|In the 16-cell each ''single'' isocline winds through all 8 vertices: an entire [[W:Hopf fibration|fibration]] of two completely orthogonal great squares.{{Efn|name=completely orthogonal Clifford parallels are special}} The 5-cell and the 16-cell are the only regular 4-polytopes where each discrete fibration has just one isocline fiber.{{Efn|Except in the 5-cell and 16-cell,{{Efn|name=two special cases}} a pair of left and right isocline circles have disjoint vertices: the left and right isocline helices are non-intersecting parallels but counter-rotating, forming a special kind of double helix which cannot occur in three dimensions (where counter-rotating helices of the same radius must intersect).|name=counter-rotating double helix}}|name=each 16-cell isocline reaches all 8 vertices}} Each eight-cell ring contains half of the 16 cells, but all 8 vertices; the two rings share the vertices, as they nest into each other and fit together. They also share the 24 edges, though left and right octagram helices are different eight-edge paths.{{Efn|The left and right isoclines intersect each other at every vertex. They are different sequences of the same set of 8 vertices. With respect only to the set of 4 vertex pairs which are {{radic|2}} apart, they can be considered to be Clifford parallel. With respect only to the set of 4 vertex pairs which are {{radic|4}} apart, they can be considered to be completely orthogonal.{{Efn|name=completely orthogonal Clifford parallels are special}}}}

Because there are three pairs of completely orthogonal great squares,{{Efn|name=Six orthogonal planes of the Cartesian basis}} there are three congruent ways to compose a 16-cell from two eight-cell rings. The 16-cell contains three left-right pairs of eight-cell rings in different orientations, with each cell ring containing its axial isocline.{{Efn|name=only one disjoint pair of eight-cell rings}} Each left-right pair of isoclines is the track of a left-right pair of distinct isoclinic rotations: the rotations in one pair of completely orthogonal invariant planes of rotation.{{Efn|name=Clifford parallel great squares}} At each vertex, there are three great squares and six octagram isoclines that cross at the vertex and share a 16-cell axis chord.{{Efn|This is atypical for isoclinic rotations generally; normally both the left and right isoclines do not occur at the same vertex: there are two disjoint sets of vertices reachable only by the left or right rotation respectively.{{Efn|name=counter-rotating double helix}} The left and right isoclines of the 16-cell form a very special double helix: unusual not just because it is circular, but because its different left and right helices twist around each other through the ''same set'' of antipodal vertices,{{Efn|name=each 16-cell isocline reaches all 8 vertices}} not through the two ''disjoint subsets'' of antipodal vertices, as the isocline pairs do in most isoclinic rotations found in nature.{{Efn|For another example of the left and right isoclines of a rotation visiting the same set of vertices, see the [[5-cell#Geodesics and rotations|characteristic isoclinic rotation of the 5-cell]]. Although in these two special cases left and right isoclines of the same rotation visit the same set of vertices, they still take very different rotational paths because they visit the same vertices in different sequences.|name=two special cases}} Isoclinic rotations in completely orthogonal invariant planes are special.{{Efn|Each great square plane is isoclinic (Clifford parallel) to five other square planes but completely orthogonal to only one of them. Every pair of completely orthogonal planes has Clifford parallel great circles, but not all Clifford parallel great circles are orthogonal. There is also another way in which completely orthogonal planes are in a distinguished category of Clifford parallel planes: they are not [[W:Chiral|chiral]]. A pair of isoclinic (Clifford parallel) planes is either a ''left pair'' or a ''right pair'' unless they are separated by two angles of 90° (completely orthogonal planes) or 0° (coincident planes).{{Sfn|Kim|Rote|2016|pp=7-8|loc=§&amp;nbsp;6 Angles between two Planes in 4-Space|ps=; Left and Right Pairs of Isoclinic Planes.}} Most isoclinic planes are brought together only by a left isoclinic rotation or a right isoclinic rotation, respectively. Completely orthogonal planes are special: the pair of planes is both a left and a right pair, so either a left or a right isoclinic rotation will bring them together. Because planes separated by a 90° isoclinic rotation are 180° apart, the plane to the ''left'' and the plane to the ''right'' are the same plane.{{Efn|name=exchange of completely orthogonal planes}}|name=completely orthogonal Clifford parallels are special}} To see ''how'' and ''why'' they are special, visualize two completely orthogonal invariant planes of rotation, each rotating by some rotation angle ''and'' tilting sideways by the same rotation angle into a different plane entirely.{{Efn|name=isoclinic rotation}} ''Only when the rotation angle is 90°,'' that different plane in which the tilting invariant plane lands will be the completely orthogonal invariant plane itself. The destination plane of the rotation ''is'' the completely orthogonal invariant plane. The 90° isoclinic rotation is the only rotation which takes the completely orthogonal invariant planes to each other.{{Efn|name=exchange of completely orthogonal planes}} This reciprocity is the reason both left and right rotations go to the same place.}}

=== As a configuration ===
This [[W:Regular 4-polytope#As configurations|configuration matrix]] represents the 16-cell. The rows and columns correspond to vertices, edges, faces, and cells. The diagonal numbers say how many of each element occur in the whole 16-cell. The nondiagonal numbers say how many of the column's element occur in or at the row's element.

&lt;math&gt;\begin{bmatrix}\begin{matrix}8 &amp; 6 &amp; 12 &amp; 8 \\ 2 &amp; 24 &amp; 4 &amp; 4 \\ 3 &amp; 3 &amp; 32 &amp; 2 \\ 4 &amp; 6 &amp; 4 &amp; 16 \end{matrix}\end{bmatrix}&lt;/math&gt;

== Tessellations ==
One can [[W:Tessellation|tessellate]] 4-dimensional [[W:Euclidean space|Euclidean space]] by regular 16-cells. This is called the [[W:16-cell honeycomb|16-cell honeycomb]] and has [[W:Schläfli symbol|Schläfli symbol]] {3,3,4,3}. Hence, the 16-cell has a [[W:Dihedral angle|dihedral angle]] of 120°.{{sfn|Coxeter|1973|p=293}} Each 16-cell has 16 neighbors with which it shares a tetrahedron, 24 neighbors with which it shares only an edge, and 72 neighbors with which it shares only a single point. Twenty-four 16-cells meet at any given vertex in this tessellation.

The dual tessellation, the [[W:24-cell honeycomb|24-cell honeycomb]], {3,4,3,3}, is made of regular [[24-cell]]s. Together with the [[W:Tesseractic honeycomb|tesseractic honeycomb]] {4,3,3,4} these are the only three [[W:List of regular polytopes#Tessellations of Euclidean 4-space|regular tessellations]] of '''R'''&lt;sup&gt;4&lt;/sup&gt;.

== Projections ==
{{B4 Coxeter plane graphs|t3|150}}

[[File:Orthogonal projection envelopes 16-cell.png|thumb|Projection envelopes of the 16-cell. (Each cell is drawn with different color faces, inverted cells are undrawn)]]

The cell-first parallel projection of the 16-cell into 3-space has a [[W:cube|cubical]] envelope. The closest and farthest cells are projected to inscribed tetrahedra within the cube, corresponding with the two possible ways to inscribe a regular tetrahedron in a cube. Surrounding each of these tetrahedra are 4 other (non-regular) tetrahedral volumes that are the images of the 4 surrounding tetrahedral cells, filling up the space between the inscribed tetrahedron and the cube. The remaining 6 cells are projected onto the square faces of the cube. In this projection of the 16-cell, all its edges lie on the faces of the cubical envelope.

The cell-first perspective projection of the 16-cell into 3-space has a [[W:triakis tetrahedron|triakis tetrahedral]] envelope. The layout of the cells within this envelope are analogous to that of the cell-first parallel projection.

The vertex-first parallel [[W:Graphical projection|projection]] of the 16-cell into 3-space has an [[W:octahedron|octahedral]] [[W:projection envelope|envelope]]. This octahedron can be divided into 8 tetrahedral volumes, by cutting along the coordinate planes. Each of these volumes is the image of a pair of cells in the 16-cell. The closest vertex of the 16-cell to the viewer projects onto the center of the octahedron.

Finally the edge-first parallel projection has a shortened octahedral envelope, and the face-first parallel projection has a [[W:hexagonal bipyramid]]al envelope.

== 4 sphere Venn diagram ==
A 3-dimensional projection of the 16-cell and 4 intersecting spheres (a [[W:Venn diagram|Venn diagram]] of 4 sets) are [[W:topology|topologically]] equivalent.

{|
|-
|
{{multiple image
 | align = left  | total_width = 700
 | image1 = 4 spheres, cell 00, solid.png
 | image2 = 4 spheres, weight 1, solid.png
 | image3 = 4 spheres, weight 2, solid.png
 | image4 = 4 spheres, weight 3, solid.png
 | image5 = 4 spheres, cell 15, solid.png
 | footer = The 16 cells ordered by number of intersecting spheres (from 0 to 4) &amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp; &lt;small&gt;(see all [[commons:Category:Venn diagrams rgby; single cells|cells]] and [[v:Tesseract and 16-cell faces|''k''-faces]])&lt;/small&gt;
}}
|
{{multiple image
 | align = right  | total_width = 290
 | image1 = 4 spheres as rings, vertical.png
 | image2 = Stereographic polytope 16cell.png
 | footer = 4 sphere Venn diagram and 16-cell projection in the same orientation
}}
|}

== Symmetry constructions ==
The 16-cell's [[W:Coxeter group|symmetry group]] is denoted [[W:B4 polytope|B&lt;sub&gt;4&lt;/sub&gt;]].

There is a lower symmetry form of the ''16-cell'', called a '''demitesseract''' or '''4-demicube''', a member of the [[W:Demihypercube|demihypercube]] family.{{Sfn|Conway, Burgiel &amp; Goodman-Strauss|2008| loc=Chapter 26. Hemicubes: 1&lt;sub&gt;n1&lt;/sub&gt; | p=409 }} It is represented by h{4,3,3} and [[W:Coxeter diagram|Coxeter diagram]]s {{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_h1|4|node|3|node|3|node}} or {{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|nodes_10ru|split2|node|3|node}}. It can be drawn bicolored with alternating [[W:tetrahedron|tetrahedral]] cells.

It can also be seen in lower symmetry form as a '''tetrahedral antiprism''', constructed by 2 parallel [[W:tetrahedron|tetrahedra]] in dual configurations, connected by 8 (possibly elongated) tetrahedra. It is represented by s{2,4,3}, and Coxeter diagram: {{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_h|2x|node_h|4|node|3|node}}.

It can also be seen as a snub 4-[[W:Orthotope|orthotope]], represented by s{2&lt;sup&gt;1,1,1&lt;/sup&gt;}, and Coxeter diagram: {{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_h|2x|node_h|2x|node_h|2x|node_h}} or {{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_h|2x|node_h|split1-22|nodes_hh}}.

With the [[W:Tesseract|tesseract]] constructed as a 4-4 [[W:Duoprism|duoprism]], the 16-cell can be seen as its dual, a 4-4 [[W:Duopyramid|duopyramid]].

{| class=wikitable
!Name
![[W:Coxeter diagram|Coxeter diagram]]
![[W:Schläfli symbol|Schläfli symbol]]
![[W:Coxeter notation|Coxeter notation]]
!Order
![[W:Vertex figure|Vertex figure]]
|- align=center
!Regular 16-cell
|{{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_1|3|node|3|node|4|node}}
|{3,3,4}
|[3,3,4]||384
|{{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_1|3|node|4|node}}
|- align=center
!Demitesseract&lt;br /&gt;[[W:Quasiregular polytope|Quasiregular]] 16-cell
|{{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|nodes_10ru|split2|node|3|node}} = {{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_h1|4|node|3|node|3|node}}&lt;br /&gt;{{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_1|3|node|split1|nodes}} = {{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_1|3|node|3|node|4|node_h0}}
|h{4,3,3}&lt;br /&gt;{3,3&lt;sup&gt;1,1&lt;/sup&gt;}
|[3&lt;sup&gt;1,1,1&lt;/sup&gt;] = [1&lt;sup&gt;+&lt;/sup&gt;,4,3,3]||192
|{{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node|3|node_1|3|node}}
|- align=center
!Alternated 4-4 [[W:Duoprism|duoprism]]
|{{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|label2|branch_hh|4a4b|nodes}}
|2s{4,2,4}
|[[W:4,2&lt;sup&gt;+&lt;/sup&gt;,4|4,2&lt;sup&gt;+&lt;/sup&gt;,4]]||64
|
|- align=center
!Tetrahedral antiprism
|{{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_h|2x|node_h|4|node|3|node}}
|s{2,4,3}
|[2&lt;sup&gt;+&lt;/sup&gt;,4,3]||48
|
|- align=center
!Alternated square prism prism
|{{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_h|2x|node_h|2x|node_h|4|node}}
|sr{2,2,4}
|[(2,2)&lt;sup&gt;+&lt;/sup&gt;,4]||16
|
|- align=center
!Snub 4-[[W:Orthotope|orthotope]]
|{{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_h|2x|node_h|2x|node_h|2x|node_h}} = {{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_h|2x|node_h|split1-22|nodes_hh}}
|s{2&lt;sup&gt;1,1,1&lt;/sup&gt;}
|[2,2,2]&lt;sup&gt;+&lt;/sup&gt; = [2&lt;sup&gt;1,1,1&lt;/sup&gt;]&lt;sup&gt;+&lt;/sup&gt;||8
|{{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_h|2x|node_h|2x|node_h}}
|- align=center
!rowspan=6|4-[[W:Rhombic fusil|fusil]]
|- align=center
|{{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_f1|4|node|3|node|3|node}}
|{3,3,4}
|[3,3,4]||384
|{{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_f1|4|node|3|node}}
|- align=center
|{{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_f1|4|node|2x|node_f1|4|node}}
|{4}+{4} or 2{4}
|&lt;nowiki&gt;[[W:4,2,4|4,2,4]]&lt;/nowiki&gt; = [8,2&lt;sup&gt;+&lt;/sup&gt;,8]||128
|{{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_f1|4|node|2x|node_f1}}
|- align=center
|{{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_f1|4|node|3|node|2x|node_f1}}
|{3,4}+{ }
|[4,3,2]||96
|{{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_f1|4|node|3|node}}&lt;br /&gt;{{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_f1|4|node|2x|node_f1}}
|- align=center
|{{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_f1|4|node|2x|node_f1|2x|node_f1}}
|{4}+2{ }
|[4,2,2]||32
|{{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_f1|4|node|2x|node_f1}}&lt;br /&gt;{{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_f1|2x|node_f1|2x|node_f1}}
|- align=center
|{{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_f1|2x|node_f1|2x|node_f1|2x|node_f1}}
|{ }+{ }+{ }+{ } or 4{ }
|[2,2,2]||16
|{{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_f1|2x|node_f1|2x|node_f1}}
|}

== Related complex polygons ==
The [[W:Möbius–Kantor polygon|Möbius–Kantor polygon]] is a [[W:Regular complex polytope|regular complex polygon]] &lt;sub&gt;3&lt;/sub&gt;{3}&lt;sub&gt;3&lt;/sub&gt;, {{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|3node_1|3|3node}}, in &lt;math&gt;\mathbb{C}^2&lt;/math&gt; shares the same vertices as the 16-cell. It has 8 vertices, and 8 3-edges.{{Sfn|Coxeter|1991|pp=30,47}}{{Sfn|Coxeter &amp; Shephard|1992}}

The regular complex polygon, &lt;sub&gt;2&lt;/sub&gt;{4}&lt;sub&gt;4&lt;/sub&gt;, {{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_1|4|4node}}, in &lt;math&gt;\mathbb{C}^2&lt;/math&gt; has a real representation as a 16-cell in 4-dimensional space with 8 vertices, 16 2-edges, only half of the edges of the 16-cell.  Its symmetry is &lt;sub&gt;4&lt;/sub&gt;[4]&lt;sub&gt;2&lt;/sub&gt;, order 32.{{Sfn|Coxeter|1991|p=108}}

{| class=wikitable width=320
|+ [[W:Orthographic projection|Orthographic projection]]s of &lt;sub&gt;2&lt;/sub&gt;{4}&lt;sub&gt;4&lt;/sub&gt; polygon
|- valign=top
|[[File:Complex polygon 2-4-4.png|160px]]&lt;br /&gt;In B&lt;sub&gt;4&lt;/sub&gt; [[W:Coxeter plane|Coxeter plane]], &lt;sub&gt;2&lt;/sub&gt;{4}&lt;sub&gt;4&lt;/sub&gt; has 8 vertices and 16 2-edges, shown here with 4 sets of colors.
|[[File:Complex polygon 2-4-4 bipartite graph.png|160px]]&lt;br /&gt;The 8 vertices are grouped in 2 sets (shown red and blue), each only connected with edges to vertices in the other set, making this polygon a [[W:Complete bipartite graph|complete bipartite graph]], K&lt;sub&gt;4,4&lt;/sub&gt;.{{Sfn|Coxeter|1991|p=114}}
|}

== Related uniform polytopes and honeycombs ==

The regular 16-cell and [[W:Tesseract|tesseract]] are the regular members of a set of 15 [[W:B4 polytope|uniform 4-polytopes with the same B&lt;sub&gt;4&lt;/sub&gt; symmetry]]. The 16-cell is also one of the [[W:D4 polytope|uniform polytopes of D&lt;sub&gt;4&lt;/sub&gt; symmetry]].

The 16-cell is also related to the [[W:Cubic honeycomb|cubic honeycomb]], [[W:Order-4 dodecahedral honeycomb|order-4 dodecahedral honeycomb]], and [[W:Order-4 hexagonal tiling honeycomb|order-4 hexagonal tiling honeycomb]] which all have [[W:Hexagonal tiling honeycomb#Polytopes and honeycombs with tetrahedral vertex figures|octahedral vertex figures]].

It belongs to the sequence of  [[W:Order-6 tetrahedral honeycomb#Related polytopes and honeycombs|{3,3,p} 4-polytopes]] which have tetrahedral cells. The sequence includes three [[W:Regular 4-polytope|regular 4-polytope]]s of Euclidean 4-space, the [[5-cell]] {3,3,3}, 16-cell {3,3,4}, and [[600-cell]] {3,3,5}), and the [[W:Order-6 tetrahedral honeycomb|order-6 tetrahedral honeycomb]] {3,3,6} of hyperbolic space.

It is first in a sequence of [[W:Tetrahedral-octahedral honeycomb#Quasuiregular honeycombs|quasiregular polytopes and honeycombs]] h{4,p,q}, and a [[W:Order-4 hexagonal tiling honeycomb#Quasiregular honeycombs|half symmetry sequence]], for regular forms {p,3,4}.

== See also ==
*[[24-cell]]
*[[W:4-polytope|4-polytope]]
*[[W:D4 polytope|D4 polytope]]

== Notes ==
{{Regular convex 4-polytopes Notelist|wiki=W:}}

== Citations ==
{{Regular convex 4-polytopes Reflist|wiki=W:}}

== References ==
{{Refbegin}}
{{Regular convex 4-polytopes Refs|wiki=W:}}
{{Refend}}

== External links ==
* [https://bendwavy.org/klitzing/incmats/hex.htm hex], at [https://bendwavy.org/klitzing/home.htm Klitzing polytopes]
* [https://polytope.miraheze.org/wiki/Hexadecachoron Hexadecachoron], at [https://polytope.miraheze.org/wiki/Main_Page Polytope wiki]
* [http://hi.gher.space/wiki/Aerochoron Aerochoron], at [http://hi.gher.space/wiki/Main_Page Higher space]
* [https://www.qfbox.info/4d/uniform Uniform polychora (The tesseract/16-cell family)], at [https://www.qfbox.info/4d/index 4D Euclidean Space]

[[Category:Geometry]]
[[Category:Polyscheme]]</text>
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      <text bytes="58728" sha1="pi60iymjuahxbximics6fae3fi7rgsp" xml:space="preserve">{{Short description|Four-dimensional analog of the octahedron}}
{{Polyscheme|radius=an '''expanded version''' of}}
{{Infobox 4-polytope |
  Name=16-cell&lt;br /&gt;(4-orthoplex)|
  Image_File=Schlegel wireframe 16-cell.png|
  Image_Caption=[[W:Schlegel diagram|Schlegel diagram]]&lt;br /&gt;(vertices and edges)|
  Type=[[W:Convex regular 4-polytope|Convex regular 4-polytope]]&lt;br /&gt;4-[[W:Orthoplex|orthoplex]]&lt;br /&gt;4-[[W:Demihypercube|demicube]]|
  Last=[[W:Rectified tesseract|11]]|
  Index=12|
  Next=[[W:Truncated tesseract|13]]|
  Schläfli={3,3,4}|
  CD={{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_1|3|node|3|node|4|node}} |
  Cell_List=16 [[W:Tetrahedron|{3,3}]] [[File:3-simplex t0.svg|25px]]|
  Face_List=32 [[W:Triangle|{3}]] [[File:2-simplex t0.svg|25px]]|
  Edge_Count= 24|
  Vertex_Count= 8|
  Petrie_Polygon=[[W:Octagon|octagon]]|
  Coxeter_Group=B&lt;sub&gt;4&lt;/sub&gt;, [3,3,4], order 384&lt;br /&gt;D&lt;sub&gt;4&lt;/sub&gt;, order 192|
  Vertex_Figure=[[File:16-cell verf.svg|80px]]&lt;br /&gt;[[W:Octahedron|Octahedron]]|
  Dual=[[W:Tesseract|Tesseract]]|
  Property_List=[[W:Convex polytope|convex]], [[W:Isogonal figure|isogonal]], [[W:Isotoxal figure|isotoxal]], [[W:Isohedral figure|isohedral]], [[W:Regular polytope|regular]], [[W:Hanner polytope|Hanner polytope]]
}}
In [[W:Geometry|geometry]], the '''16-cell''' is the [[W:Regular convex 4-polytope|regular convex 4-polytope]] (four-dimensional analogue of a Platonic solid) with [[W:Schläfli symbol|Schläfli symbol]] {3,3,4}. It is one of the six regular convex 4-polytopes first described by the Swiss mathematician [[W:Ludwig Schläfli|Ludwig Schläfli]] in the mid-19th century.{{Sfn|Coxeter|1973|p=141|loc=§&amp;nbsp;7-x. Historical remarks}} It is also called '''C&lt;sub&gt;16&lt;/sub&gt;''', '''hexadecachoron''',&lt;ref&gt;[[W:Norman Johnson (mathematician)|N.W. Johnson]]: ''Geometries and Transformations'', (2018) {{ISBN|978-1-107-10340-5}} Chapter 11: ''Finite Symmetry Groups'', 11.5 ''Spherical Coxeter groups'', p.249&lt;/ref&gt; or '''hexdecahedroid'''.&lt;ref&gt;Matila Ghyka, ''The Geometry of Art and Life'' (1977), p.68&lt;/ref&gt;

It is the 4-dimesional member of an infinite family of polytopes called [[W:Cross-polytope|cross-polytope]]s, ''orthoplexes'', or ''hyperoctahedrons'' which are analogous to the [[W:Cctahedron|octahedron]] in three dimensions. It is Coxeter's &lt;math&gt;\beta_4&lt;/math&gt; polytope.{{Sfn|Coxeter|1973|pp=120=121|loc=§&amp;nbsp;7.2. See illustration Fig 7.2&lt;small&gt;B&lt;/small&gt;}} The [[W:Dual polytope|dual polytope]] is the [[W:Tesseract|tesseract]] (4-[[W:Hypercube|cube]]), which it can be combined with to form [[W:Compound of tesseract and 16-cell|a compound figure]]. The cells of the 16-cell are dual to the 16 vertices of the tesseract.

== Geometry ==
The 16-cell is the second in the sequence of 6 convex regular 4-polytopes (in order of size and complexity).{{Efn|name=4-polytopes ordered by size and complexity|group=}}

Each of its 4 successor convex regular 4-polytopes can be constructed as the [[W:Convex hull|convex hull]] of a [[W:Polytope compound|polytope compound]] of multiple 16-cells: the 16-vertex [[W:Tesseract|tesseract]] as a compound of two 16-cells, the 24-vertex [[24-cell]] as a compound of three 16-cells, the 120-vertex [[600-cell]] as a compound of fifteen 16-cells, and the 600-vertex [[120-cell]] as a compound of seventy-five 16-cells.{{Efn|There are 2 and only 2 16-cells inscribed in the 8-cell (tesseract), 3 and only 3 16-cells inscribed in the 24-cell, 75 distinct 16-cells (but only 15 disjoint 16-cells) inscribed in the 600-cell, and 675 distinct 16-cells (but only 75 disjoint 16-cells) inscribed in the 120-cell.}}

{{Regular convex 4-polytopes|wiki=W:}}

=== Coordinates ===
{| class=&quot;wikitable floatright&quot;
!colspan=2|Disjoint squares
|-
|
{| class=&quot;wikitable&quot; style=&quot;white-space:nowrap;&quot;
!colspan=2|''xy'' plane
|-
|( 0, 1, 0, 0)||( 0, 0,-1, 0)
|-
|( 0, 0, 1, 0)||( 0,-1, 0, 0)
|}
|-
|
{| class=&quot;wikitable&quot; style=&quot;white-space:nowrap;&quot;
!colspan=2|''wz'' plane
|-
|( 1, 0, 0, 0)||( 0, 0, 0,-1)
|-
|( 0, 0, 0, 1)||(-1, 0, 0, 0)
|}
|}The 16-cell is the 4-dimensional [[W:Cross polytope|cross polytope (4-orthoplex)]], which means its vertices lie in opposite pairs on the 4 axes of a (w, x, y, z) Cartesian coordinate system.

The eight vertices are (±1, 0, 0, 0), (0, ±1, 0, 0), (0, 0, ±1, 0), (0, 0, 0, ±1). All vertices are connected by edges except opposite pairs. The edge length is {{radic|2}}.

The vertex coordinates form 6 [[W:Orthogonal|orthogonal]] central squares lying in the 6 coordinate planes. Squares in ''opposite'' planes that do not share an axis (e.g. in the ''xy'' and ''wz'' planes) are completely disjoint (they do not intersect at any vertices). These planes are [[W:Completely orthogonal|completely orthogonal]].{{Efn|name=Six orthogonal planes of the Cartesian basis}}

The 16-cell constitutes an [[W:Orthonormal basis|orthonormal ''basis'']] for the choice of a 4-dimensional reference frame, because its vertices exactly define the four orthogonal axes.

=== Structure ===
The [[W:Schläfli symbol|Schläfli symbol]] of the 16-cell is {3,3,4}, indicating that its cells are [[W:Regular tetrahedron|regular tetrahedra]] {3,3} and its [[W:Vertex figure|vertex figure]] is a [[W:Regular octahedron|regular octahedron]] {3,4}. There are 8 tetrahedra, 12 triangles, and 6 edges meeting at every vertex. Its [[W:Edge figure|edge figure]] is a square. There are 4 tetrahedra and 4 triangles meeting at every edge.

The 16-cell is [[W:Totally bounded|bounded]] by 16 [[W:Cell (mathematics)|cells]], all of which are regular [[W:Tetrahedron|tetrahedra]].{{Efn|The boundary surface of a 16-cell is a finite 3-dimensional space consisting of 16 tetrahedra arranged face-to-face (four around one). It is a closed, tightly curved (non-Euclidean) 3-space, within which we can move straight through 4 tetrahedra in any direction and arrive back in the tetrahedron where we started. We can visualize moving around inside this tetrahedral [[W:Jungle gym|jungle gym]], climbing from one tetrahedron into another on its 24 struts (its edges), and never being able to get out (or see out) of the 16 tetrahedra no matter what direction we go (or look). We are always on (or in) the ''surface'' of the 16-cell, never inside the 16-cell itself (nor outside it). We can see that the 6 edges around each vertex radiate symmetrically in 3 dimensions and form an orthogonal 3-axis cross, just as the radii of an octahedron do (so we say the vertex figure of the 16-cell is the octahedron).{{Efn|name=octahedral pyramid}}}} It has 32 [[W:Triangle (geometry)|triangular]] [[W:Face (geometry)|faces]], 24 [[W:Edge (geometry)|edges]], and 8 [[W:Vertex (geometry)|vertices]]. The 24 edges bound 6 [[W:Orthogonal|orthogonal]] central squares lying on [[W:Great circle|great circles]] in the 6 coordinate planes (3 pairs of completely orthogonal great squares). At each vertex, 3 great squares cross perpendicularly. The 6 edges meet at the vertex the way 6 edges meet at the [[W:Apex (geometry)|apex]] of a canonical [[W:Octahedral pyramid|octahedral pyramid]].{{Efn|Each vertex in the 16-cell is the apex of an [[W:Octahedral pyramid|octahedral pyramid]], the base of which is the octahedron formed by the 6 other vertices to which the apex is connected by edges. The 16-cell can be deconstructed (four different ways) into two octahedral pyramids by cutting it in half through one of its four octahedral central hyperplanes. Looked at from inside the curved 3 dimensional volume of its boundary surface of 16 face-bonded tetrahedra, the 16-cell's vertex figure is an octahedron. In 4 dimensions, the vertex octahedron is actually an octahedral pyramid. The apex of the octahedral pyramid (the vertex where the 6 edges meet) is not actually at the center of the octahedron: it is displaced radially outwards in the fourth dimension, out of the hyperplane defined by the octahedron's 6 vertices. The 6 edges around the vertex make an orthogonal 3-axis cross in 3 dimensions (and in the [[W:Octahedral pyramid|3-dimensional projection of the 4-pyramid]]), but the 3 lines are actually bent 90 degrees in the fourth dimension where they meet in an apex.|name=octahedral pyramid}} The 6 orthogonal central planes of the 16-cell can be divided into 4 orthogonal central hyperplanes (3-spaces) each forming an [[W:Octahedron|octahedron]] with 3 orthogonal great squares.

=== Rotations ===
{| class=&quot;wikitable&quot; width=480
|- align=center valign=top
|rowspan=2|[[File:16-cell.gif]]&lt;br /&gt;A 3D projection of a 16-cell performing a [[W:SO(4)#Simple rotations|simple rotation]]
|[[File:16-cell-orig.gif]]&lt;br /&gt;A 3D projection of a 16-cell performing a [[W:SO(4)#Double rotations|double rotation]]
|}
[[W:Rotations in 4-dimensional Euclidean space|Rotations in 4-dimensional Euclidean space]] can be seen as the composition of two 2-dimensional rotations in [[w:Completely_orthogonal|completely orthogonal]] planes.{{Sfn|Kim|Rote|2016|p=6|loc=§&amp;nbsp;5. Four-Dimensional Rotations}} The 16-cell is a simple frame in which to observe 4-dimensional rotations, because each of the 16-cell's 6 great squares has another completely orthogonal great square (there are 3 pairs of completely orthogonal squares).{{Efn|name=Six orthogonal planes of the Cartesian basis}} Many rotations of the 16-cell can be characterized by the angle of rotation in one of its great square planes (e.g. the ''xy'' plane) and another angle of rotation in the completely orthogonal great square plane (the ''wz'' plane).{{Efn|Each great square vertex is {{radic|2}} distant from two of the square's other vertices, and {{radic|4}} distant from its opposite vertex. The other four vertices of the 16-cell (also {{radic|2}} distant) are the vertices of the square's completely orthogonal square.{{Efn|name=Clifford parallel great squares}} Each 16-cell vertex is a vertex of ''three'' orthogonal great squares which intersect there. Each great square has a different ''completely'' orthogonal great square. Thus there are three great squares completely orthogonal to each vertex: squares that the vertex is not part of.{{Efn|The three ''incompletely'' orthogonal great squares which intersect at each vertex of the 16-cell form the vertex's octahedral [[W:Vertex figure|vertex figure]].{{Efn|name=octahedral pyramid}} Any two of them, together with the completely orthogonal square of the third, also form an octahedron: a central octahedral hyperplane.{{Efn|Three great squares meet at each vertex (and at its opposite vertex) in the 16-cell. Each of them has a different completely orthogonal square. Thus there are three great squares completely orthogonal to each vertex and its opposite vertex (each axis). They form an octahedron (a central hyperplane). Every axis line in the 16-cell is completely orthogonal to a central octahedron hyperplane, as every great square plane is completely orthogonal to another great square plane.{{Efn|name=Six orthogonal planes of the Cartesian basis}} The axis and the octahedron intersect only at one point (the center of the 16-cell), as each pair of completely orthogonal great squares intersects only at one point (the center of the 16-cell). Each central octahedron is also the octahedral vertex figure of two of the eight vertices: the two on its completely orthogonal axis.|name=octahedral hyperplanes}} In the 16-cell, each octahedral vertex figure is also a central octahedral hyperplane.|name=completely orthogonal great squares}}|name=vertex and central octahedra}} Completely orthogonal great squares have disjoint vertices: 4 of the 16-cell's 8 vertices rotate in one plane, and the other 4 rotate independently in the completely orthogonal plane.{{Efn|Completely orthogonal great squares are non-intersecting and rotate independently because the great circles on which their vertices lie are [[W:Clifford parallel|Clifford parallel]].{{Efn|[[W:Clifford parallel|Clifford parallel]]s are non-intersecting curved lines that are parallel in the sense that the perpendicular (shortest) distance between them is the same at each point.{{Sfn|Tyrrell &amp; Semple|1971|loc=§&amp;nbsp;3. Clifford's original definition of parallelism|pp=5-6}} A double helix is an example of Clifford parallelism in ordinary 3-dimensional Euclidean space. In 4-space Clifford parallels occur as geodesic great circles on the [[W:3-sphere|3-sphere]].{{Sfn|Kim|Rote|2016|pp=7-10|loc=§&amp;nbsp;6. Angles between two Planes in 4-Space}} In the 16-cell the corresponding vertices of completely orthogonal great circle squares are all {{radic|2}} apart, so these squares are Clifford parallel polygons.{{Efn|name=completely orthogonal Clifford parallels are special}} Note that only the vertices of the great squares (the points on the great circle) are {{radic|2}} apart; points on the edges of the squares (on chords of the circle) are closer together.|name=Clifford parallels}} They are {{radic|2}} apart at each pair of nearest vertices (and in the 16-cell ''all'' the pairs except antipodal pairs are nearest). The two squares cannot intersect at all because they lie in planes which intersect at only one point: the center of the 16-cell.{{Efn|name=Six orthogonal planes of the Cartesian basis}} Because they are perpendicular and share a common center, the two squares are obviously not parallel and separate in the usual way of parallel squares in 3 dimensions; rather they are connected like adjacent square links in a chain, each passing through the other without intersecting at any points, forming a [[W:Hopf link|Hopf link]].|name=Clifford parallel great squares}}

In 2 or 3 dimensions a rotation is characterized by a single plane of rotation; this kind of rotation taking place in 4-space is called a [[W:Rotations in 4-dimensional Euclidean space#Simple rotations|simple rotation]], in which only one of the two completely orthogonal planes rotates (the angle of rotation in the other plane is 0). In the 16-cell, a simple rotation in one of the 6 orthogonal planes moves only 4 of the 8 vertices; the other 4 remain fixed. (In the simple rotation animation above, all 8 vertices move because the plane of rotation is not one of the 6 orthogonal basis planes.)

In a [[W:Rotations in 4-dimensional Euclidean space#Double rotations|double rotation]] both sets of 4 vertices move, but independently: the angles of rotation may be different in the 2 completely orthogonal planes. If the two angles happen to be the same, a maximally symmetric [[W:Rotations in 4-dimensional Euclidean space#Isoclinic rotations|isoclinic rotation]] takes place.{{Efn|In an isoclinic rotation, all 6 orthogonal planes are displaced in two orthogonal directions at once: they are rotated by the angle, and at the same time they are tilted ''sideways'' by that same angle. An isoclinic displacement (also known as a [[W:William Kingdon Clifford|Clifford]] displacement) is 4-dimensionally diagonal. Points are displaced an equal distance in four orthogonal directions at once, and displaced a total [[W:Pythagorean distance#Higher dimensions|Pythagorean distance]] equal to the square root of four times the square of that distance (which is two times that distance). For example, when the unit-radius 16-cell rotates isoclinically 90° in a great square invariant plane, it also rotates 90° in the completely orthogonal great square invariant plane.{{Efn||name=Six orthogonal planes of the Cartesian basis}} The great square plane tilts sideways 90° to occupy its completely orthogonal plane. (By isoclinic symmetry, ''every'' great square plane rotates 90° ''and'' tilts sideways 90° into its completely orthogonal plane.) Each vertex (in every great square) is displaced to its antipodal vertex, at a distance of {{radic|1}} in each of four orthogonal directions, a total distance of {{radic|4}}. The original and displaced vertex are two edge lengths apart by three{{Efn|There are six different two-edge paths connecting a pair of antipodal vertices along the edges of a great square. The left isoclinic rotation runs diagonally between three of them, and the right isoclinic rotation runs diagonally between the other three. These diagonals are the straight lines (geodesics) connecting opposite vertices of face-bonded tetrahedral cells in the left-handed [[#Helical construction|eight-cell ring]] and the right-handed eight-cell ring, respectively.}} different paths along two edges of a great square. But the ''isocline'' (the helical arc the vertex follows during the isoclinic rotation) does not run along edges: it runs ''between'' these different edge-paths diagonally, on a geodesic (shortest arc) between the original and displaced vertices.{{Efn|name=isocline}} This isoclinic geodesic arc is not a segment of an ordinary great circle; it does not lie in the plane of any great square. It is a helical 180° arc that bends in a circle in two completely orthogonal planes at once. This [[W:Möbius loop|Möbius circle]] does not lie in any one great circle plane, or intersect any vertices of the 16-cell between the original and the displaced vertex.{{Efn|name=Möbius circle}}|name=isoclinic rotation}} In the 16-cell an isoclinic rotation by 90 degrees of any pair of completely orthogonal square planes takes every square plane to its completely orthogonal square plane.{{Efn|The 90 degree isoclinic rotation of two completely orthogonal planes takes them to each other. In such a rotation of a rigid 16-cell, all 6 orthogonal planes rotate by 90 degrees, and also tilt sideways by 90 degrees to their completely orthogonal (Clifford parallel){{Efn|name=Clifford parallels}} plane.{{Sfn|Kim|Rote|2016|pp=8-10|loc=Relations to Clifford Parallelism}} The corresponding vertices of the two completely orthogonal great squares are {{radic|4}} (180°) apart; the great squares (Clifford parallel polytopes) are {{radic|4}} (180°) apart; but the two completely orthogonal ''planes'' are 90° apart, in the ''two'' orthogonal angles that separate them. If the isoclinic rotation is continued through another 90°, each vertex completes a 360° rotation and each great square returns to its original plane, but in a different orientation (axes swapped): it has been turned &quot;upside down&quot; on the surface of the 16-cell (which is now &quot;inside out&quot;). Continuing through a second 360° isoclinic rotation (through four 90° by 90° isoclinic steps, a 720° rotation) returns everything to its original place and orientation.|name=exchange of completely orthogonal planes}}

=== Constructions ===

==== Octahedral dipyramid ====
{|class=&quot;wikitable floatright&quot;
!Octahedron &lt;math&gt;\beta_3&lt;/math&gt;
!16-cell &lt;math&gt;\beta_4&lt;/math&gt;
|-
|[[File:3-cube t2.svg|160px]]
|[[File:4-demicube t0 D4.svg|160px]]
|-
|colspan=2|Orthogonal projections to skew hexagon hyperplane
|}
The simplest construction of the 16-cell is on the 3-dimensional cross polytope, the [[W:Octahedron|octahedron]]. The octahedron has 3 perpendicular axes and 6 vertices in 3 opposite pairs (its [[W:Petrie polygon|Petrie polygon]] is the [[W:Hexagon|hexagon]]). Add another pair of vertices, on a fourth axis perpendicular to all 3 of the other axes. Connect each new vertex to all 6 of the original vertices, adding 12 new edges. This raises two [[W:Octahedral pyramid|octahedral pyramid]]s on a shared octahedron base that lies in the 16-cell's central hyperplane.{{Sfn|Coxeter|1973|p=121|loc=§&amp;nbsp;7.21. See illustration Fig 7.2&lt;small&gt;B&lt;/small&gt;|ps=: &quot;&lt;math&gt;\beta_4&lt;/math&gt; is a four-dimensional dipyramid based on &lt;math&gt;\beta_3&lt;/math&gt; (with its two apices in opposite directions along the fourth dimension).&quot;}}

[[File:stereographic_polytope_16cell_colour.png|thumb|[[W:Stereographic projection|Stereographic projection]] of the 16-cell's 6 orthogonal central squares onto their great circles. Each circle is divided into 4 arc-edges at the intersections where 3 circles cross perpendicularly. Notice that each circle has one Clifford parallel circle that it does ''not'' intersect. Those two circles pass through each other like adjacent links in a chain.]]The octahedron that the construction starts with has three perpendicular intersecting squares (which appear as rectangles in the hexagonal projections). Each square intersects with each of the other squares at two opposite vertices, with ''two'' of the squares crossing at each vertex. Then two more points are added in the fourth dimension (above and below the 3-dimensional hyperplane). These new vertices are connected to all the octahedron's vertices, creating 12 new edges and ''three more squares'' (which appear edge-on as the 3 ''diameters'' of the hexagon in the projection), and three more octahedra.{{Efn|name=octahedral hyperplanes}}

Something unprecedented has also been created. Notice that each square no longer intersects with ''all'' of the other squares: it does intersect with four of them (with ''three'' of the squares crossing at each vertex now), but each square has ''one'' other square with which it shares ''no'' vertices: it is not directly connected to that square at all. These two ''separate'' perpendicular squares (there are three pairs of them) are like the opposite edges of a [[W:Tetrahedron|tetrahedron]]: perpendicular, but non-intersecting. They lie opposite each other (parallel in some sense), and they don't touch, but they also pass through each other like two perpendicular links in a chain (but unlike links in a chain they have a common center). They are an example of '''''Clifford parallels''''', and the 16-cell is the simplest regular polytope in which they occur. [[W:William Kingdon Clifford|Clifford]] parallelism{{Efn|name=Clifford parallels}} of objects of more than one dimension (more than just curved ''lines'') emerges here and occurs in all the subsequent 4-dimensional regular polytopes, where it can be seen as the defining relationship ''among'' disjoint concentric regular 4-polytopes and their corresponding parts. It can occur between congruent (similar) polytopes of 2 or more dimensions.{{Sfn|Tyrrell &amp; Semple|1971}} For example, as noted [[#Geometry|above]] all the subsequent convex regular 4-polytopes are compounds of multiple 16-cells; those 16-cells are [[24-cell#Clifford parallel polytopes|Clifford parallel polytopes]].

==== Tetrahedral constructions ====
{| class=&quot;wikitable&quot; width=480
|- align=center valign=top
|[[File:16-cell net.png|180px|]]
|[[File:16-cell nets.png|180px]]
|}

The 16-cell has two [[W:Wythoff construction|Wythoff construction]]s from regular tetrahedra, a regular form and alternated form, shown here as [[W:Net (polyhedron)|nets]], the second represented by tetrahedral cells of two alternating colors. The alternated form is a [[#Symmetry constructions|lower symmetry construction]] of the 16-cell called the [[W:Demitesseract|demitesseract]].

Wythoff's construction replicates the 16-cell's [[5-cell#Orthoschemes|characteristic 5-cell]] in a [[W:Kaleidoscope|kaleidoscope]] of mirrors. Every regular 4-polytope has its characteristic 4-orthoscheme, an [[5-cell#Irregular 5-cells|irregular 5-cell]].{{Efn|An [[W:Orthoscheme|orthoscheme]] is a [[W:Chiral|chiral]] irregular [[W:simplex|simplex]] with [[W:Right triangle|right triangle]] faces that is characteristic of some polytope if it will exactly fill that polytope with the reflections of itself in its own [[W:Facet (geometry)|facets]] (its ''mirror walls''). Every regular polytope can be dissected radially into instances of its [[W:Orthoscheme#Characteristic simplex of the general regular polytope|characteristic orthoscheme]] surrounding its center. The characteristic orthoscheme has the shape described by the same [[W:Coxeter-Dynkin diagram|Coxeter-Dynkin diagram]] as the regular polytope without the ''generating point'' ring.|name=characteristic orthoscheme}} There are three regular 4-polytopes with tetrahedral cells: the [[5-cell]], the 16-cell, and the [[600-cell]]. Although all are bounded by ''regular'' tetrahedron cells, their characteristic 5-cells (4-orthoschemes) are different [[5-cell#Isometries|tetrahedral pyramids]], all based on the same characteristic ''irregular'' tetrahedron. They share the same [[W:Tetrahedron#Orthoschemes|characteristic tetrahedron]] (3-orthoscheme) and characteristic [[W:Right triangle|right triangle]] (2-orthoscheme) because they have the same kind of cell.{{Efn|A regular polytope of dimension ''k'' has a characteristic ''k''-orthoscheme, and also a characteristic (''k''-1)-orthoscheme. A regular 4-polytope has a characteristic 5-cell (4-orthoscheme) into which it is subdivided by its (3-dimensional) hyperplanes of symmetry, and also a characteristic tetrahedron (3-orthoscheme) into which its surface is subdivided by its cells' (2-dimensional) planes of symmetry. After subdividing its (3-dimensional) surface into characteristic tetrahedra surrounding each cell center, its (4-dimensional) interior can be subdivided into characteristic 5-cells by adding radii joining the vertices of the surface characteristic tetrahedra to the 4-polytope's center.{{Sfn|Coxeter|1973|p=130|loc=§&amp;nbsp;7.6|ps=; &quot;simplicial subdivision&quot;.}} The interior tetrahedra and triangles thus formed will also be orthoschemes.}}

{| class=&quot;wikitable floatright&quot;
!colspan=6|Characteristics of the 16-cell{{Sfn|Coxeter|1973|pp=292-293|loc=Table I(ii); &quot;16-cell, 𝛽&lt;sub&gt;4&lt;/sub&gt;&quot;}}
|-
!align=right|
!align=center|edge{{Sfn|Coxeter|1973|p=139|loc=§&amp;nbsp;7.9 The characteristic simplex}}
!colspan=2 align=center|arc
!colspan=2 align=center|dihedral{{Sfn|Coxeter|1973|p=290|loc=Table I(ii); &quot;dihedral angles&quot;}}
|-
!align=right|𝒍
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2} \approx 1.414&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;90°&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\tfrac{\pi}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;120°&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\tfrac{2\pi}{3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|
|
|
|
|
|-
!align=right|𝟀
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\tfrac{2}{3}} \approx 0.816&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;60″&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\tfrac{\pi}{3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;60°&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\tfrac{\pi}{3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
!align=right|𝝉{{Efn|{{Harv|Coxeter|1973}} uses the greek letter 𝝓 (phi) to represent one of the three ''characteristic angles'' 𝟀, 𝝓, 𝟁 of a regular polytope. Because 𝝓 is commonly used to represent the [[W:Golden ratio|golden ratio]] constant ≈ 1.618, for which Coxeter uses 𝝉 (tau), we reverse Coxeter's conventions, and use 𝝉 to represent the characteristic angle.|name=reversed greek symbols}}
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\tfrac{1}{2}} \approx 0.707&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;45″&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\tfrac{\pi}{4}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;45°&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\tfrac{\pi}{4}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
!align=right|𝟁
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\tfrac{1}{6}} \approx 0.408&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;30″&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\tfrac{\pi}{6}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;60°&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\tfrac{\pi}{3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|
|
|
|
|
|-
!align=right|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;_0R^3/l&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\tfrac{3}{4}} \approx 0.866&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;60°&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\tfrac{\pi}{3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;90°&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\tfrac{\pi}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
!align=right|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;_1R^3/l&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\tfrac{1}{4}} = 0.5&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;45°&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\tfrac{\pi}{4}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;90°&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\tfrac{\pi}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
!align=right|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;_2R^3/l&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\tfrac{1}{12}} \approx 0.289&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;30°&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\tfrac{\pi}{6}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;90°&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\tfrac{\pi}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|
|
|
|
|
|-
!align=right|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;_0R^4/l&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|
|align=center|
|align=center|
|align=center|
|-
!align=right|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;_1R^4/l&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\tfrac{1}{2}} \approx 0.707&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|
|align=center|
|align=center|
|align=center|
|-
!align=right|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;_2R^4/l&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\tfrac{1}{3}} \approx 0.577&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|
|align=center|
|align=center|
|align=center|
|-
!align=right|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;_3R^4/l&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\tfrac{1}{4}} = 0.5&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|align=center|
|align=center|
|align=center|
|align=center|
|}
The '''characteristic 5-cell of the regular 16-cell''' is represented by the [[W:Coxeter-Dynkin diagram|Coxeter-Dynkin diagram]] {{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node|3|node|3|node|4|node}}, which can be read as a list of the dihedral angles between its mirror facets. It is an irregular [[W:Pyramid (mathematics)#Polyhedral pyramid|tetrahedral pyramid]] based on the [[W:Tetrahedron#Orthoschemes|characteristic tetrahedron of the regular tetrahedron]]. The regular 16-cell is subdivided by its symmetry hyperplanes into 384 instances of its characteristic 5-cell that all meet at its center.

The characteristic 5-cell (4-orthoscheme) has four more edges than its base characteristic tetrahedron (3-orthoscheme), joining the four vertices of the base to its apex (the fifth vertex of the 4-orthoscheme, at the center of the regular 16-cell).{{Efn|The four edges of each 4-orthoscheme which meet at the center of a regular 4-polytope are of unequal length, because they are the four characteristic radii of the regular 4-polytope: a vertex radius, an edge center radius, a face center radius, and a cell center radius. The five vertices of the 4-orthoscheme always include one regular 4-polytope vertex, one regular 4-polytope edge center, one regular 4-polytope face center, one regular 4-polytope cell center, and the regular 4-polytope center. Those five vertices (in that order) comprise a path along four mutually perpendicular edges (that makes three right angle turns), the characteristic feature of a 4-orthoscheme. The 4-orthoscheme has five dissimilar 3-orthoscheme facets.|name=characteristic radii}} If the regular 16-cell has unit radius edge and edge length 𝒍 = &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;, its characteristic 5-cell's ten edges have lengths &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\tfrac{2}{3}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;, &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\tfrac{1}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;, &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\tfrac{1}{6}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; around its exterior right-triangle face (the edges opposite the ''characteristic angles'' 𝟀, 𝝉, 𝟁),{{Efn|name=reversed greek symbols}} plus &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\tfrac{3}{4}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;, &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\tfrac{1}{4}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;, &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\tfrac{1}{12}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; (the other three edges of the exterior 3-orthoscheme facet the characteristic tetrahedron, which are the ''characteristic radii'' of the regular tetrahedron), plus &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;, &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\tfrac{1}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;, &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\tfrac{1}{3}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;, &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\tfrac{1}{4}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; (edges which are the characteristic radii of the regular 16-cell). The 4-edge path along orthogonal edges of the orthoscheme is &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\tfrac{1}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;, &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\tfrac{1}{6}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;, &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\tfrac{1}{4}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;, &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\tfrac{1}{4}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;, first from a 16-cell vertex to a 16-cell edge center, then turning 90° to a 16-cell face center, then turning 90° to a 16-cell tetrahedral cell center, then turning 90° to the 16-cell center.

==== Helical construction ====
[[File:Eight face-bonded tetrahedra.jpg|thumb|A 4-dimensional ring of 8 face-bonded tetrahedra, seen in the [[W:Boerdijk–Coxeter helix|Boerdijk–Coxeter helix]], bounded by three eight-edge circular paths of different colors, cut and laid out flat in 3-dimensional space. It contains an ''isocline'' axis (not shown), a helical circle of circumference 4𝝅 that twists through all four dimensions and visits all 8 vertices.{{Efn|name=isocline}} The two blue-blue-yellow triangles at either end of the cut ring are the same object.]]
[[File:16-cell 8-ring net4.png|thumb|Net and orthogonal projection]]

A 16-cell can be constructed (three different ways) from two [[W:Boerdijk–Coxeter helix|Boerdijk–Coxeter helix]]es of eight chained tetrahedra, each bent in the fourth dimension into a ring.{{Sfn|Coxeter|1970|loc=Table 2: Reflexible honeycombs and their groups|p=45|ps=; Honeycomb [3,3,4]&lt;sub&gt;4&lt;/sub&gt; is a tiling of the 3-sphere by 2 rings of 8 tetrahedral cells.}}{{Sfn|Banchoff|2013}} The two circular helixes share the same 8 vertices and 24 edges, but their tetrahedra are disjoint. The helixes spiral around each other, nest into each other and pass through each other forming a [[W:Hopf link|Hopf link]]. 16 of the 32 triangle faces can be seen in a 2D net within a [[W:Triangular tiling|triangular tiling]], with 6 triangles around every vertex. The [[W:Petrie polygon|Petrie polygon]] of the 16-cell is a skew octagon, visible as the purple edges in the octagon orthogonal projection, and as the light blue edges in the tetrahedral helix. Each eight-cell ring of tetrahedra actually contains three such skew [[W:Octagram|octagram]]s of different colors, eight-edge circular paths that wind twice around the 16-cell on every third vertex of the octagram. The orange and yellow edges are two four-edge halves of one skew octagram, which join their ends to form a [[W:Möbius strip|Möbius strip]].

Thus the 16-cell can be decomposed into two cell-disjoint circular chains of eight tetrahedrons each, four edges long, one spiraling to the right (clockwise) and the other spiraling to the left (counterclockwise). The left-handed and right-handed cell rings fit together, nesting into each other and entirely filling the 16-cell, even though they are of opposite chirality. This decomposition can be seen in a 4-4 [[W:Duoantiprism|duoantiprism]] construction of the 16-cell: {{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_h|2x|node_h|2x|node_h|2x|node_h}} or {{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node|4|node_h|2x|node_h|4|node}}, [[W:Schläfli symbol|Schläfli symbol]] {2}⨂{2} or s{2}s{2}, [[W:Coxeter notation|symmetry]] [4,2&lt;sup&gt;+&lt;/sup&gt;,4], order 64.

Three eight-edge paths (of different colors) spiral along each eight-cell ring, making 90° angles at each vertex. (In the Boerdijk–Coxeter helix before it is bent into a ring, the angles in different paths vary, but are not 90°.) Three paths (with three different colors and apparent angles) pass through each vertex. When the helix is bent into a ring, the segments of each eight-edge path (of various lengths) join their ends, forming a Möbius strip eight edges long along its single-sided circumference of 4𝝅, and one edge wide.{{Efn|name=Möbius circle}} The six four-edge halves of the three eight-edge paths each make four 90° angles, but they are ''not'' the six orthogonal great squares: they are open-ended squares, four-edge 360° helices whose open ends are [[W:Antipodal point|antipodal]] vertices. The four edges come from four different great squares, and are mutually orthogonal. Combined end-to-end in pairs of the same [[W:Chirality|chirality]], the six four-edge paths make three eight-edge Möbius loops, [[W:Helix|helical]] octagrams. Each octagram is both a [[W:Petrie polygon|Petrie polygon]] of the 16-cell, and the helical track along which all eight vertices rotate together, in one of the 16-cell's distinct isoclinic [[#Rotations|rotations]].{{Efn|The 16-cell can be constructed from two cell-disjoint eight-cell rings in three different ways; it has three orientations of its pair of rings. Each orientation &quot;contains&quot; a distinct left-right pair of isoclinic rotations, and also a pair of completely orthogonal great squares (Clifford parallel fibers), so each orientation is a discrete [[W:Hopf fibration|fibration]] of the 16-cell. Each eight-cell ring contains three axial octagrams which have different orientations (they exchange roles) in the three discrete fibrations and six distinct isoclinic rotations (three left and three right) through the cell rings. Three octagrams (of different colors) can be seen in the illustration of a single cell ring, one in the role of Petrie polygon, one as the right isocline, and one as the left isocline. Because each octagram plays three roles, there are exactly six distinct isoclines in the 16-cell, not 18.|name=only one disjoint pair of eight-cell rings}}

{| class=&quot;wikitable&quot; width=610
!colspan=5|Five ways of looking at the same [[W:Skew polygon|skew]] [[W:Octagram|octagram]]{{Efn|All five views are the same orthogonal projection of the 16-cell into the same plane (a circular cross-section of the eight-cell ring cylinder), looking along the central axis of the cut ring cylinder pictured above, from one end of the cylinder. The only difference is which {{radic|2}} edges and {{radic|4}} chords are ''omitted'' for focus. The different colors of {{radic|2}} edges appear to be of different lengths because they are oblique to the viewer at different angles. Vertices are numbered 1 (top) through 8 in counterclockwise order.}}
|-
![[#Rotations|Edge path]]
![[W:Petrie polygon#The Petrie polygon of regular polychora (4-polytopes)|Petrie polygon]]{{Sfn|Coxeter|1973|pp=292-293|loc=Table I(ii); 24-cell ''h&lt;sub&gt;1&lt;/sub&gt;''}}
!16-cell
![[W:Hopf fibration|Discrete fibration]]
![[#Coordinates|Diameter chords]]
|-
![[W:Octagram|Octagram]]&lt;sub&gt;{8/3}&lt;/sub&gt;{{Sfn|Coxeter|1973|pp=292-293|loc=Table I(ii); 24-cell ''h&lt;sub&gt;2&lt;/sub&gt;''}}
![[W:Petrie polygon#The Petrie polygon of regular polychora (4-polytopes)|Octagram]]&lt;sub&gt;{8/1}&lt;/sub&gt;
![[W:Coxeter element#Coxeter plane|Coxeter plane]] [[W:B4 polytope|B&lt;sub&gt;4&lt;/sub&gt;]]
![[W:Octagram#Star polygon compounds|Octagram]]&lt;sub&gt;{8/2}=2{4}&lt;/sub&gt;
![[W:Octagram#Star polygon compounds|Octagram]]&lt;sub&gt;{8/4}=4{2}&lt;/sub&gt;
|-
|align=center|[[File:16-cell skew octagram (8-3).png|120px]]
|align=center|[[File:16-cell skew octagram (8).png|120px]]
|align=center|[[File:16-cell skew octagram.png|120px]]
|align=center|[[File:16-cell skew octagram 2(4).png|120px]]
|align=center|[[File:16-cell skew octagram 4(2).png|120px]]
|-
|The eight {{radic|2}} chords of the edge-path of an isocline.{{Efn|name=isocline curve}}
|Skew [[W:Octagon|octagon]] of eight {{radic|2}} edges. The 16-cell has 6 of these 8-vertex circuits.
|All 24 {{radic|2}} edges and the four {{radic|4}} orthogonal axes.
|Two completely orthogonal (disjoint) great squares of {{radic|2}} edges.{{Efn|name=Clifford parallel great squares}}
|The four {{radic|4}} chords of an isocline. Every fourth isocline vertex is joined to its antipodal vertex by a 16-cell axis.{{Efn|Each isocline has the eight continuous {{radic|2}} chords of its octagram&lt;sub&gt;{8/3}&lt;/sub&gt; edge-path, and also four discontinuous {{radic|4}} diameter chords that connect every ''fourth'' vertex on the octagram but do not connect to each other. Antipodal vertices also have a twisted continuous path of four mutually orthogonal {{radic|2}} edges connecting them. Between antipodal vertices, the isocline curves smoothly around in a helix over the four {{radic|2}} chords of its edge-path, hitting the three intervening vertices. Each {{radic|2}} edge is an edge of a great square, that is completely orthogonal to another great square, in which the {{radic|4}} chord is a diagonal.|name=isocline curve}}
|}
Each eight-edge helix is a [[W:Skew polygon|skew]] [[W:Octagram|octagram]]&lt;sub&gt;{8/3}&lt;/sub&gt; that [[W:Winding number|winds three times]] around the 16-cell and visits every vertex before closing into a loop. Its eight {{radic|2}} edges are chords of an ''isocline'', a helical geodesic on which the 8 vertices circle during an isoclinic rotation.{{Efn|An isocline is a circle of special kind corresponding to a pair of [[W:Villarceau circle|Villarceau circle]]s linked in a [[W:Möbius loop|Möbius loop]]. It curves through four dimensions instead of just two. All ordinary circles have a 2𝝅 circumference, but the 16-cell's isocline is a circle with an 4𝝅 circumference (over eight 90° chords). An isocline is a circle that does not lie in a plane, but to avoid confusion we always refer to it as an ''isocline'' and reserve the term ''circle'' for an ordinary circle in the plane.|name=Möbius circle}} All eight 16-cell vertices are {{radic|2}} apart except for opposite (antipodal) vertices, which are {{radic|4}} apart. A vertex moving on the isocline visits three other vertices that are {{radic|2}} apart before reaching the fourth vertex that is {{radic|4}} away.{{Efn|In the 16-cell, two antipodal vertices are opposite vertices of two face-bonded tetrahedral cells. The two antipodal vertices are connected by (three different) two-edge great circle paths along edges of the tetrahedral cells, by various three-edge paths, and by four-edge paths on isoclines and Petrie polygons. {{Efn|name=Möbius circle}}|name=isocline}}

The eight-cell ring is [[W:Chiral|chiral]]: there is a right-handed form which spirals clockwise, and a left-handed form which spirals counterclockwise. The 16-cell contains one of each, so it also contains a left and a right isocline; the isocline is the circular axis around which the eight-cell ring twists. Each isocline visits all eight vertices of the 16-cell.{{Efn|In the 16-cell each ''single'' isocline winds through all 8 vertices: an entire [[W:Hopf fibration|fibration]] of two completely orthogonal great squares.{{Efn|name=completely orthogonal Clifford parallels are special}} The 5-cell and the 16-cell are the only regular 4-polytopes where each discrete fibration has just one isocline fiber.{{Efn|Except in the 5-cell and 16-cell,{{Efn|name=two special cases}} a pair of left and right isocline circles have disjoint vertices: the left and right isocline helices are non-intersecting parallels but counter-rotating, forming a special kind of double helix which cannot occur in three dimensions (where counter-rotating helices of the same radius must intersect).|name=counter-rotating double helix}}|name=each 16-cell isocline reaches all 8 vertices}} Each eight-cell ring contains half of the 16 cells, but all 8 vertices; the two rings share the vertices, as they nest into each other and fit together. They also share the 24 edges, though left and right octagram helices are different eight-edge paths.{{Efn|The left and right isoclines intersect each other at every vertex. They are different sequences of the same set of 8 vertices. With respect only to the set of 4 vertex pairs which are {{radic|2}} apart, they can be considered to be Clifford parallel. With respect only to the set of 4 vertex pairs which are {{radic|4}} apart, they can be considered to be completely orthogonal.{{Efn|name=completely orthogonal Clifford parallels are special}}}}

Because there are three pairs of completely orthogonal great squares,{{Efn|name=Six orthogonal planes of the Cartesian basis}} there are three congruent ways to compose a 16-cell from two eight-cell rings. The 16-cell contains three left-right pairs of eight-cell rings in different orientations, with each cell ring containing its axial isocline.{{Efn|name=only one disjoint pair of eight-cell rings}} Each left-right pair of isoclines is the track of a left-right pair of distinct isoclinic rotations: the rotations in one pair of completely orthogonal invariant planes of rotation.{{Efn|name=Clifford parallel great squares}} At each vertex, there are three great squares and six octagram isoclines that cross at the vertex and share a 16-cell axis chord.{{Efn|This is atypical for isoclinic rotations generally; normally both the left and right isoclines do not occur at the same vertex: there are two disjoint sets of vertices reachable only by the left or right rotation respectively.{{Efn|name=counter-rotating double helix}} The left and right isoclines of the 16-cell form a very special double helix: unusual not just because it is circular, but because its different left and right helices twist around each other through the ''same set'' of antipodal vertices,{{Efn|name=each 16-cell isocline reaches all 8 vertices}} not through the two ''disjoint subsets'' of antipodal vertices, as the isocline pairs do in most isoclinic rotations found in nature.{{Efn|For another example of the left and right isoclines of a rotation visiting the same set of vertices, see the [[5-cell#Geodesics and rotations|characteristic isoclinic rotation of the 5-cell]]. Although in these two special cases left and right isoclines of the same rotation visit the same set of vertices, they still take very different rotational paths because they visit the same vertices in different sequences.|name=two special cases}} Isoclinic rotations in completely orthogonal invariant planes are special.{{Efn|Each great square plane is isoclinic (Clifford parallel) to five other square planes but completely orthogonal to only one of them. Every pair of completely orthogonal planes has Clifford parallel great circles, but not all Clifford parallel great circles are orthogonal. There is also another way in which completely orthogonal planes are in a distinguished category of Clifford parallel planes: they are not [[W:Chiral|chiral]]. A pair of isoclinic (Clifford parallel) planes is either a ''left pair'' or a ''right pair'' unless they are separated by two angles of 90° (completely orthogonal planes) or 0° (coincident planes).{{Sfn|Kim|Rote|2016|pp=7-8|loc=§&amp;nbsp;6 Angles between two Planes in 4-Space|ps=; Left and Right Pairs of Isoclinic Planes.}} Most isoclinic planes are brought together only by a left isoclinic rotation or a right isoclinic rotation, respectively. Completely orthogonal planes are special: the pair of planes is both a left and a right pair, so either a left or a right isoclinic rotation will bring them together. Because planes separated by a 90° isoclinic rotation are 180° apart, the plane to the ''left'' and the plane to the ''right'' are the same plane.{{Efn|name=exchange of completely orthogonal planes}}|name=completely orthogonal Clifford parallels are special}} To see ''how'' and ''why'' they are special, visualize two completely orthogonal invariant planes of rotation, each rotating by some rotation angle ''and'' tilting sideways by the same rotation angle into a different plane entirely.{{Efn|name=isoclinic rotation}} ''Only when the rotation angle is 90°,'' that different plane in which the tilting invariant plane lands will be the completely orthogonal invariant plane itself. The destination plane of the rotation ''is'' the completely orthogonal invariant plane. The 90° isoclinic rotation is the only rotation which takes the completely orthogonal invariant planes to each other.{{Efn|name=exchange of completely orthogonal planes}} This reciprocity is the reason both left and right rotations go to the same place.}}

=== As a configuration ===
This [[W:Regular 4-polytope#As configurations|configuration matrix]] represents the 16-cell. The rows and columns correspond to vertices, edges, faces, and cells. The diagonal numbers say how many of each element occur in the whole 16-cell. The nondiagonal numbers say how many of the column's element occur in or at the row's element.

&lt;math&gt;\begin{bmatrix}\begin{matrix}8 &amp; 6 &amp; 12 &amp; 8 \\ 2 &amp; 24 &amp; 4 &amp; 4 \\ 3 &amp; 3 &amp; 32 &amp; 2 \\ 4 &amp; 6 &amp; 4 &amp; 16 \end{matrix}\end{bmatrix}&lt;/math&gt;

== Tessellations ==
One can [[W:Tessellation|tessellate]] 4-dimensional [[W:Euclidean space|Euclidean space]] by regular 16-cells. This is called the [[W:16-cell honeycomb|16-cell honeycomb]] and has [[W:Schläfli symbol|Schläfli symbol]] {3,3,4,3}. Hence, the 16-cell has a [[W:Dihedral angle|dihedral angle]] of 120°.{{sfn|Coxeter|1973|p=293}} Each 16-cell has 16 neighbors with which it shares a tetrahedron, 24 neighbors with which it shares only an edge, and 72 neighbors with which it shares only a single point. Twenty-four 16-cells meet at any given vertex in this tessellation.

The dual tessellation, the [[W:24-cell honeycomb|24-cell honeycomb]], {3,4,3,3}, is made of regular [[24-cell]]s. Together with the [[W:Tesseractic honeycomb|tesseractic honeycomb]] {4,3,3,4} these are the only three [[W:List of regular polytopes#Tessellations of Euclidean 4-space|regular tessellations]] of '''R'''&lt;sup&gt;4&lt;/sup&gt;.

== Projections ==
{{B4 Coxeter plane graphs|t3|150}}

[[File:Orthogonal projection envelopes 16-cell.png|thumb|Projection envelopes of the 16-cell. (Each cell is drawn with different color faces, inverted cells are undrawn)]]

The cell-first parallel projection of the 16-cell into 3-space has a [[W:cube|cubical]] envelope. The closest and farthest cells are projected to inscribed tetrahedra within the cube, corresponding with the two possible ways to inscribe a regular tetrahedron in a cube. Surrounding each of these tetrahedra are 4 other (non-regular) tetrahedral volumes that are the images of the 4 surrounding tetrahedral cells, filling up the space between the inscribed tetrahedron and the cube. The remaining 6 cells are projected onto the square faces of the cube. In this projection of the 16-cell, all its edges lie on the faces of the cubical envelope.

The cell-first perspective projection of the 16-cell into 3-space has a [[W:triakis tetrahedron|triakis tetrahedral]] envelope. The layout of the cells within this envelope are analogous to that of the cell-first parallel projection.

The vertex-first parallel [[W:Graphical projection|projection]] of the 16-cell into 3-space has an [[W:octahedron|octahedral]] [[W:projection envelope|envelope]]. This octahedron can be divided into 8 tetrahedral volumes, by cutting along the coordinate planes. Each of these volumes is the image of a pair of cells in the 16-cell. The closest vertex of the 16-cell to the viewer projects onto the center of the octahedron.

Finally the edge-first parallel projection has a shortened octahedral envelope, and the face-first parallel projection has a [[W:hexagonal bipyramid]]al envelope.

== 4 sphere Venn diagram ==
A 3-dimensional projection of the 16-cell and 4 intersecting spheres (a [[W:Venn diagram|Venn diagram]] of 4 sets) are [[W:topology|topologically]] equivalent.

{|
|-
|
{{multiple image
 | align = left  | total_width = 700
 | image1 = 4 spheres, cell 00, solid.png
 | image2 = 4 spheres, weight 1, solid.png
 | image3 = 4 spheres, weight 2, solid.png
 | image4 = 4 spheres, weight 3, solid.png
 | image5 = 4 spheres, cell 15, solid.png
 | footer = The 16 cells ordered by number of intersecting spheres (from 0 to 4) &amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp; &lt;small&gt;(see all [[commons:Category:Venn diagrams rgby; single cells|cells]] and [[v:Tesseract and 16-cell faces|''k''-faces]])&lt;/small&gt;
}}
|
{{multiple image
 | align = right  | total_width = 290
 | image1 = 4 spheres as rings, vertical.png
 | image2 = Stereographic polytope 16cell.png
 | footer = 4 sphere Venn diagram and 16-cell projection in the same orientation
}}
|}

== Symmetry constructions ==
The 16-cell's [[W:Coxeter group|symmetry group]] is denoted [[W:B4 polytope|B&lt;sub&gt;4&lt;/sub&gt;]].

There is a lower symmetry form of the ''16-cell'', called a '''demitesseract''' or '''4-demicube''', a member of the [[W:Demihypercube|demihypercube]] family.{{Sfn|Conway, Burgiel &amp; Goodman-Strauss|2008| loc=Chapter 26. Hemicubes: 1&lt;sub&gt;n1&lt;/sub&gt; | p=409 }} It is represented by h{4,3,3} and [[W:Coxeter diagram|Coxeter diagram]]s {{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_h1|4|node|3|node|3|node}} or {{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|nodes_10ru|split2|node|3|node}}. It can be drawn bicolored with alternating [[W:tetrahedron|tetrahedral]] cells.

It can also be seen in lower symmetry form as a '''tetrahedral antiprism''', constructed by 2 parallel [[W:tetrahedron|tetrahedra]] in dual configurations, connected by 8 (possibly elongated) tetrahedra. It is represented by s{2,4,3}, and Coxeter diagram: {{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_h|2x|node_h|4|node|3|node}}.

It can also be seen as a snub 4-[[W:Orthotope|orthotope]], represented by s{2&lt;sup&gt;1,1,1&lt;/sup&gt;}, and Coxeter diagram: {{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_h|2x|node_h|2x|node_h|2x|node_h}} or {{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_h|2x|node_h|split1-22|nodes_hh}}.

With the [[W:Tesseract|tesseract]] constructed as a 4-4 [[W:Duoprism|duoprism]], the 16-cell can be seen as its dual, a 4-4 [[W:Duopyramid|duopyramid]].

{| class=wikitable
!Name
![[W:Coxeter diagram|Coxeter diagram]]
![[W:Schläfli symbol|Schläfli symbol]]
![[W:Coxeter notation|Coxeter notation]]
!Order
![[W:Vertex figure|Vertex figure]]
|- align=center
!Regular 16-cell
|{{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_1|3|node|3|node|4|node}}
|{3,3,4}
|[3,3,4]||384
|{{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_1|3|node|4|node}}
|- align=center
!Demitesseract&lt;br /&gt;[[W:Quasiregular polytope|Quasiregular]] 16-cell
|{{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|nodes_10ru|split2|node|3|node}} = {{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_h1|4|node|3|node|3|node}}&lt;br /&gt;{{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_1|3|node|split1|nodes}} = {{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_1|3|node|3|node|4|node_h0}}
|h{4,3,3}&lt;br /&gt;{3,3&lt;sup&gt;1,1&lt;/sup&gt;}
|[3&lt;sup&gt;1,1,1&lt;/sup&gt;] = [1&lt;sup&gt;+&lt;/sup&gt;,4,3,3]||192
|{{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node|3|node_1|3|node}}
|- align=center
!Alternated 4-4 [[W:Duoprism|duoprism]]
|{{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|label2|branch_hh|4a4b|nodes}}
|2s{4,2,4}
|[[W:4,2&lt;sup&gt;+&lt;/sup&gt;,4|4,2&lt;sup&gt;+&lt;/sup&gt;,4]]||64
|
|- align=center
!Tetrahedral antiprism
|{{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_h|2x|node_h|4|node|3|node}}
|s{2,4,3}
|[2&lt;sup&gt;+&lt;/sup&gt;,4,3]||48
|
|- align=center
!Alternated square prism prism
|{{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_h|2x|node_h|2x|node_h|4|node}}
|sr{2,2,4}
|[(2,2)&lt;sup&gt;+&lt;/sup&gt;,4]||16
|
|- align=center
!Snub 4-[[W:Orthotope|orthotope]]
|{{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_h|2x|node_h|2x|node_h|2x|node_h}} = {{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_h|2x|node_h|split1-22|nodes_hh}}
|s{2&lt;sup&gt;1,1,1&lt;/sup&gt;}
|[2,2,2]&lt;sup&gt;+&lt;/sup&gt; = [2&lt;sup&gt;1,1,1&lt;/sup&gt;]&lt;sup&gt;+&lt;/sup&gt;||8
|{{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_h|2x|node_h|2x|node_h}}
|- align=center
!rowspan=6|4-[[W:Rhombic fusil|fusil]]
|- align=center
|{{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_f1|4|node|3|node|3|node}}
|{3,3,4}
|[3,3,4]||384
|{{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_f1|4|node|3|node}}
|- align=center
|{{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_f1|4|node|2x|node_f1|4|node}}
|{4}+{4} or 2{4}
|&lt;nowiki&gt;[[W:4,2,4|4,2,4]]&lt;/nowiki&gt; = [8,2&lt;sup&gt;+&lt;/sup&gt;,8]||128
|{{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_f1|4|node|2x|node_f1}}
|- align=center
|{{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_f1|4|node|3|node|2x|node_f1}}
|{3,4}+{ }
|[4,3,2]||96
|{{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_f1|4|node|3|node}}&lt;br /&gt;{{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_f1|4|node|2x|node_f1}}
|- align=center
|{{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_f1|4|node|2x|node_f1|2x|node_f1}}
|{4}+2{ }
|[4,2,2]||32
|{{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_f1|4|node|2x|node_f1}}&lt;br /&gt;{{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_f1|2x|node_f1|2x|node_f1}}
|- align=center
|{{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_f1|2x|node_f1|2x|node_f1|2x|node_f1}}
|{ }+{ }+{ }+{ } or 4{ }
|[2,2,2]||16
|{{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_f1|2x|node_f1|2x|node_f1}}
|}

== Related complex polygons ==
The [[W:Möbius–Kantor polygon|Möbius–Kantor polygon]] is a [[W:Regular complex polytope|regular complex polygon]] &lt;sub&gt;3&lt;/sub&gt;{3}&lt;sub&gt;3&lt;/sub&gt;, {{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|3node_1|3|3node}}, in &lt;math&gt;\mathbb{C}^2&lt;/math&gt; shares the same vertices as the 16-cell. It has 8 vertices, and 8 3-edges.{{Sfn|Coxeter|1991|pp=30,47}}{{Sfn|Coxeter &amp; Shephard|1992}}

The regular complex polygon, &lt;sub&gt;2&lt;/sub&gt;{4}&lt;sub&gt;4&lt;/sub&gt;, {{Coxeter–Dynkin diagram|node_1|4|4node}}, in &lt;math&gt;\mathbb{C}^2&lt;/math&gt; has a real representation as a 16-cell in 4-dimensional space with 8 vertices, 16 2-edges, only half of the edges of the 16-cell.  Its symmetry is &lt;sub&gt;4&lt;/sub&gt;[4]&lt;sub&gt;2&lt;/sub&gt;, order 32.{{Sfn|Coxeter|1991|p=108}}

{| class=wikitable width=320
|+ [[W:Orthographic projection|Orthographic projection]]s of &lt;sub&gt;2&lt;/sub&gt;{4}&lt;sub&gt;4&lt;/sub&gt; polygon
|- valign=top
|[[File:Complex polygon 2-4-4.png|160px]]&lt;br /&gt;In B&lt;sub&gt;4&lt;/sub&gt; [[W:Coxeter plane|Coxeter plane]], &lt;sub&gt;2&lt;/sub&gt;{4}&lt;sub&gt;4&lt;/sub&gt; has 8 vertices and 16 2-edges, shown here with 4 sets of colors.
|[[File:Complex polygon 2-4-4 bipartite graph.png|160px]]&lt;br /&gt;The 8 vertices are grouped in 2 sets (shown red and blue), each only connected with edges to vertices in the other set, making this polygon a [[W:Complete bipartite graph|complete bipartite graph]], K&lt;sub&gt;4,4&lt;/sub&gt;.{{Sfn|Coxeter|1991|p=114}}
|}

== Related uniform polytopes and honeycombs ==

The regular 16-cell and [[W:Tesseract|tesseract]] are the regular members of a set of 15 [[W:B4 polytope|uniform 4-polytopes with the same B&lt;sub&gt;4&lt;/sub&gt; symmetry]]. The 16-cell is also one of the [[W:D4 polytope|uniform polytopes of D&lt;sub&gt;4&lt;/sub&gt; symmetry]].

The 16-cell is also related to the [[W:Cubic honeycomb|cubic honeycomb]], [[W:Order-4 dodecahedral honeycomb|order-4 dodecahedral honeycomb]], and [[W:Order-4 hexagonal tiling honeycomb|order-4 hexagonal tiling honeycomb]] which all have [[W:Hexagonal tiling honeycomb#Polytopes and honeycombs with tetrahedral vertex figures|octahedral vertex figures]].

It belongs to the sequence of  [[W:Order-6 tetrahedral honeycomb#Related polytopes and honeycombs|{3,3,p} 4-polytopes]] which have tetrahedral cells. The sequence includes three [[W:Regular 4-polytope|regular 4-polytope]]s of Euclidean 4-space, the [[5-cell]] {3,3,3}, 16-cell {3,3,4}, and [[600-cell]] {3,3,5}), and the [[W:Order-6 tetrahedral honeycomb|order-6 tetrahedral honeycomb]] {3,3,6} of hyperbolic space.

It is first in a sequence of [[W:Tetrahedral-octahedral honeycomb#Quasuiregular honeycombs|quasiregular polytopes and honeycombs]] h{4,p,q}, and a [[W:Order-4 hexagonal tiling honeycomb#Quasiregular honeycombs|half symmetry sequence]], for regular forms {p,3,4}.

== See also ==
*[[24-cell]]
*[[W:4-polytope|4-polytope]]
*[[W:D4 polytope|D4 polytope]]

== Notes ==
{{Regular convex 4-polytopes Notelist|wiki=W:}}

== Citations ==
{{Regular convex 4-polytopes Reflist|wiki=W:}}

== References ==
{{Refbegin}}
{{Regular convex 4-polytopes Refs|wiki=W:}}
{{Refend}}

== External links ==
* [https://bendwavy.org/klitzing/incmats/hex.htm hex], at [https://bendwavy.org/klitzing/home.htm Klitzing polytopes]
* [https://polytope.miraheze.org/wiki/Hexadecachoron Hexadecachoron], at [https://polytope.miraheze.org/wiki/Main_Page Polytope wiki]
* [http://hi.gher.space/wiki/Aerochoron Aerochoron], at [http://hi.gher.space/wiki/Main_Page Higher space]
* [https://www.qfbox.info/4d/uniform Uniform polychora (The tesseract/16-cell family)], at [https://www.qfbox.info/4d/index 4D Euclidean Space]

[[Category:Geometry]]
[[Category:Polyscheme]]</text>
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      <text bytes="30521" sha1="qyn4t7kzrlp0x0uuxk1w3ssi7qtq7qe" xml:space="preserve">{{title|Mobile phone use motivation:&lt;br&gt;What are the motivations for mobile phone use?}}
__TOC__

== Overview ==
{{RoundBoxTop|theme=3}}
[[File:Phone use on a train.png|thumb|''' ''Figure 1''.''' People using their phone on the train.]]

'''Imagine this ...'''

You are sitting on a crowded train after a long day. A young boy nearby laughs at a meme on Instagram. A woman beside him scrolls through her messages. Across the aisle, a student types reminders into a calendar app. Next to you, a man endlessly scrolls through social media updates. What draws each of these people to their phone? Is it comfort, connection, distraction, or control? These are everyday actions, yet behind them lie hidden motivations that shape our relationship with smartphones.
{{RoundBoxBottom}}

[[wikipedia:Mobile_phone|Mobile phones]] are central to modern life, influencing how people work, connect, and cope with [[wikipedia:Stress_(biology)|stress]]. Their use is driven by complex psychological needs that affect daily [[wikipedia:Behavior|behaviour]] and [[wikipedia:Well-being|wellbeing]]. Understanding these [[wikipedia:Motivation|motivations]] reveals why people engage with phones in unique ways, and why these behaviours can bring both benefits and challenges. [[wikipedia:Smartphone|Smartphones]] enhance productivity, entertainment, and social bonds. Yet, excessive or compulsive use can lead to [[wikipedia:Procrastination|procrastination]], [[wikipedia:Anxiety|anxiety]], and emotional [[wikipedia:Avoidance_coping|avoidance]]. This chapter explores how motivations shape phone use and offers strategies for healthier, intentional smartphone use that supports wellbeing.

{{RoundBoxTop|theme=3}}
'''Focus questions'''
* What motivates people to use smartphones in their daily lives?
* What psychological theories explain these motivations?
* How do different motivations impact wellbeing in positive and negative ways?
* What strategies can encourage mindful and beneficial phone use?
{{RoundBoxBottom}}

== Key motivations for mobile phone use ==
People use mobile phones to satisfy different psychological needs. These needs are typically categorised as instrumental (task-focused), hedonic (pleasure-oriented), social (connection-based), and emotional (coping-related) (Sundar &amp; Limperos, 2013). These motivations explain how phones are integrated into daily life and how they influence wellbeing (Davis, 1989).

== Instrumental and pragmatic motivations ==
{{RoundBoxTop|theme=1}}[[File:Boy from vector.svg|30px|link=]] '''Case example: Alex'''

Alex starts each morning by checking the weather app, navigating traffic with GPS, reviewing lecture notes, and setting assignments reminders. Each action is purposeful and task-oriented. His smartphone works as a practical assistant, helping him manage academic and daily tasks.
{{RoundBoxBottom}}

Instrumental motivations describe using phones to achieve specific goals. These motivations support productivity, scheduling, navigation, and information access (Joo &amp; Sang, 2013). Pragmatic motivations are a subtype of instrumental motivations, focusing on immediate benefits such as reassurance during emergencies or quick information access (Meng et al., 2020). Together, these motivations position smartphones as essential tools for managing everyday life (Wilson et al., 2022).

[[File:Online calendar used for scheduling.png|thumb|''Figure 2.'' An example of an online calendar used daily to organise and schedule tasks.|300x300px]]'''Theoretical explanation'''

Two psychological models explain these motivations.
*The [[wikipedia:Technology_acceptance_model|technology acceptance model]] (TAM): TAM proposes that technology use depends on perceived usefulness and ease of use (Davis, 1989). When phones are both effective and effortless, they are more likely to be integrated into daily routines. This aligns with the [[wikipedia:Theory_of_reasoned_action|theory of reasoned action]], which views attitudes as strong predictors of behaviour (Fishbein &amp; Ajzen, 1975).
*The [[wikipedia:Uses_and_gratifications_theory|uses and gratifications theory]] (UGT): UGT views smartphone users as active decision-makers who adopt media to fulfil personal needs (Katz et al., 1973). Instrumental use reflects utility-based gratifications, such as finding directions, setting reminders, or contacting help (Park et al., 2009).

These models show how technology design and user choice shape instrumental motivation.

'''Research evidence'''

Instrumental phone use is consistently linked to positive outcomes. Purposeful engagement such as accessing information, improving productivity, and navigating with GPS supports daily functioning (Wilson et al., 2022). For older adults, instrumental use helps coordinate activities and supports both cognitive and social functioning (Wilson et al., 2022). Pragmatic motivations extend these benefits by providing reassurance and safety, especially during emergencies (Meng et al., 2020). From TAM's perspective, these outcomes illustrate how perceived usefulness encourages routine phone behaviour (Davis, 1989).

Meng et al. (2020) found that instrumental use is less likely to lead to dependency compared to hedonic or emotional motivations. This suggests instrumental use promotes a balanced engagement with smartphones. However, risks exist. An over-reliance on GPS may impair spatial awareness (Ruginski et al., 2019), and habitual checking of reminders can weaken memory and problem-solving skills (Elhai et al., 2017). UGT helps explain this shift from adaptive to maladaptive outcomes. While users initially select tools for convenience, {{g]} however reliance can turn into habit, diminishing autonomy and flexibility (Kardefelt-Winther, 2014).

'''Summary'''

Instrumental and pragmatic motivations generally support adaptive outcomes. Phones act as practical assistants, helping people stay organised, informed, and safe. TAM and UGT show that when phones are useful and easy to use, they integrate smoothly into daily life. Yet, the same convenience may reduce independence if it replaces critical skills. These motivations are most beneficial when phones complement rather than replace human capabilities (Joo &amp; Sang, 2013).

== Hedonic and entertainment motivations ==
{{RoundBoxTop|theme=2}}[[File:Girl silhouette.svg|20px|link=]] '''Case example: Sarah'''

After a long day of studying, Sarah relaxes by watching videos on TikTok or playing mobile games like Clash of Clans. These activities improve her mood and distract her from her current stress. But sometimes these activities delay her sleep and cut into her study time.
{{RoundBoxBottom}}

Hedonic motivations describe using phones for enjoyment, escape, and relief from boredom. This includes watching videos, gaming, scrolling [[wikipedia:Social_media|social media]], or listening to music. These activities provide quick pleasure and immersion (Granic et al., 2014).    
'''Theoretical explanation'''

Three psychological perspectives explain how hedonic motivations drive mobile phone use.
*The uses and gratifications theory: People actively select media to meet needs such as entertainment, diversion, and relaxation (Katz et al., 1973). Smartphones amplify these gratifications because they combine many entertainment functions in one portable device (Sundar &amp; Limperos, 2013).
*[[wikipedia:Self-determination_theory|Self-determination theory (SDT)]]: Hedonic use can satisfy the basic psychological needs for autonomy and competence, enhancing intrinsic motivation (Deci &amp; Ryan, 1985) For example, choosing a playlist supports autonomy. Beating a level in a game provides competence. Sharing a video with friends strengthens relatedness. When these needs are met, hedonic use can enhance wellbeing (Jeno et al., 2017).
*The compensatory internet use theory (CIUT): People use online entertainment to cope with stress, loneliness, or unmet needs (Kardefelt-Winther, 2014). For students like Sarah, this may mean escaping academic pressure through binge-watching or gaming. While this coping strategy may provide temporary relief, it can also become maladaptive if it replaces healthier habits like rest or social interaction (Elhai et al., 2019).

Together, these theories show that hedonic use is about mood regulation, need fulfilment, and distraction.[[File:Young boy watching a video on his phone.png|thumb|''Figure 3.'' A person enjoying watching a video on their phone.]]

'''Research evidence'''

Short bursts of gaming or video watching can reduce stress and help recovery from daily strain (Reinecke &amp; Eden, 2016). Adolescents who engage in these activities with peers also report stronger friendships and an increased sense of belonging (Granic et al., 2014). From the perspective of self-determination theory, these hedonic activities satisfy psychological needs for competence and relatedness, supporting wellbeing when used in moderation (Deci &amp; Ryan, 2000).

However, risks arise when hedonic use becomes excessive. A meta-analysis by Kuss et al. (2018) found a moderate association between hedonic phone use and poorer sleep quality. This corroborates findings from national survey data. For instance, 70% of Australian teenagers use their phones in bed, with half of them reporting shorter sleep durations (Sleep Health Foundation, 2022). The compensatory internet use theory helps explain this pattern. While entertainment can offer short-term stress relief, excessive reliance may reinforce avoidance coping, negatively affecting wellbeing over time (Elhai et al., 2017).

The uses and gratifications theory further clarifies these risks by showing how entertainment use can shift from intentional choice to automatic checking. This diminishes autonomy and reinforces distraction habits (Sundar &amp; Limperos, 2013). Similarly, the self-determination theory suggests that hedonic use dominated by stress or obligation fails to satisfy basic needs and may undermine health (Deci &amp; Ryan, 1985).

'''Summary'''

Hedonic motivations highlights the double-edged nature of mobile entertainment. When balanced, these activities fulfil psychological needs and aid recovery from stress (Reinecke &amp; Eden, 2016). Conversely, when driven by avoidance or habit, they can impair sleep, learning, and overall wellbeing (Kuss et al., 2018). The impact depends less on the technology itself and more on whether people use it as a balanced form of enjoyment or as a substitute for healthier coping strategies.

{{RoundBoxTop|theme=9}}
[[File:Thought_bubble.svg|40px|link=]]
'''Reflection box: How do you use your phone for entertainment?'''

Think about the last time you used your phone just for enjoyment (e.g., watching videos, playing games, scrolling social media). 

*Did it help you feel more relaxed or energised?
*Did it ever interfere with your sleep?
*What needs (autonomy, competence, connection) do you think were met by that phone use?
{{RoundBoxBottom}}

== Social motivations ==
{{RoundBoxTop|theme=3}}
[[File:Girl silhouette.svg|20px|link=]]
'''Case example: Taylor'''

Taylor recently moved to a new city for university. She uses messaging apps, video calls, and social media to stay in touch with old friends. These interactions help her feel connected to her community, despite the distance.
{{RoundBoxBottom}}

Taylor’s behaviour reflects social motivations. These motivations stem from the human need for connection, belonging, and validation. Phones allow people to maintain relationships, share updates and feel included regardless of distance. Social motivations include messaging, posting content, and joining online groups. While often rewarding, social use can also create pressure to stay available and can increase stress when users feel excluded (Kim &amp; Lee, 2011).  

'''Theoretical explanation'''

Three psychological models explain how social motivations drive mobile phone use.
*Self-determination theory: SDT identifies relatedness as a basic psychological need, alongside autonomy and competence (Deci &amp; Ryan, 2000). Phones support relatedness by offering frequent contact (Joo &amp; Sang, 2013). However, when connections are pursued out of obligation or fear of exclusion, the benefits of relatedness decline (Kushlev et al., 2016).
*Uses and gratifications theory: UGT sees users as active decision-makers who choose media that fulfils needs such as belonging, reassurance, or identity expression (Katz et al., 1973). Phones make this easy by providing instant connection.
*Compensatory Internet Use Theory (CIUT): CIUT proposes that people use online communication to compensate for offline social challenges (Kardefelt-Winther, 2014). For example, students may rely on group chats or social media to reduce loneliness or social anxiety. While this can provide temporary comfort, it may also reinforce dependence and reduce engagement in offline interactions.

Together, these perspectives suggest that social motivations can be both supportive and anxiety-driven.

'''Research evidence'''

Research highlights both benefits and risks associated with social phone use. On the positive side, social interactions via smartphones strengthen perceived support and bonding. Tools like messaging, [[wikipedia:Videotelephony|video calls]], and [[wikipedia:Chat_room|group chats]] help reduce loneliness and help students adapt to new environments (Joo &amp; Sang, 2013). Surveys show that sharing humour, updates, and encouragement online is linked with higher wellbeing and a stronger sense of belonging (Mission Australia, 2022). These benefits are strongest when social media use is intentional. Sundar and Limperos (2013) found that focusing on meaningful exchanges rather than constant scrolling reduces loneliness and supports resilience. From the perspective of SDT, this shows how social needs for relatedness can be fulfilled in autonomy-supportive ways (Deci &amp; Ryan, 2000).

[[File:Wiki-mascots video call.png|thumb|''Figure 4''. A group of friends using video calls to socialise with each other.|left|330x330px]]

However, risks arise when social use is excessive or driven by anxiety. [[wikipedia:Fear_of_missing_out|FoMo]] is strongly linked to compulsive checking, increased stress, and sleep disturbances (Przybylski et al., 2013). Longitudinal studies show that students who mainly use phones to alleviate social anxiety report heightened distress over time (Elhai et al., 2017). This aligns with the CIUT, which suggests that digital connection can serve as avoidance coping. It offers temporary relief but reinforces dependence (Kardefelt-Winther, 2014). UGT further explains that repeated reliance on phones for reassurance fosters habitual checking rather than active coping, increasing vulnerability to problematic use (Kuss et al., 2018).

'''Summary'''

Social motivations demonstrate how phones serve as tools for belonging. When use is selective and autonomy-supportive, phones enhance wellbeing by fulfilling relatedness needs (Deci &amp; Ryan, 2000). Conversely, when driven by FoMo or avoidance, social phone use may foster stress, dependence, and reduced offline interaction (Elhai et al., 2019). A positive balance depends on whether social phone use supports authentic connection or substitutes for healthier coping strategies.

== Emotional and mood regulatory motivations ==
{{RoundBoxTop|theme=4}}
[[File:Boy from vector.svg|30px|link=]]
'''Case example: Sam'''

Sam often feels anxious before giving class presentations. To cope, he checks his phone for supportive messages and scrolls through Instagram to distract himself. This brings temporary relief but prevents him from addressing the root of his anxiety.
{{RoundBoxBottom}}

Sam’s behaviour reflects emotional and mood regulatory motivations, where phones are used to manage stress, loneliness, anxiety, sadness, or boredom. Smartphones provide immediate outlets for distraction, reassurance, or self-expression. This helps stabilise mood in the short term. These motivations stem from the basic psychological drive to regulate emotions and regain a sense of control. However, reliance on phones can shift from adaptive coping to maladaptive dependence when overused.

'''Theoretical explanation'''

Three psychological models explain these dynamics.
*[[wikipedia:Emotional_self-regulation|Emotion regulation]] theory: Gross (1998) distinguishes strategies such as distraction, reappraisal, and suppression. Phones support distraction (e.g., scrolling feeds) and can encourage reappraisal by offering uplifting or humorous content.
*[[wikipedia:Mood_management_theory|Mood management theory]]: Zillmann (1988) suggests people choose media to reduce negative states or maintain positive ones. Smartphones provide instant access to entertainment, games, and social contact, making them powerful tools for mood adjustment.
*Compensatory internet use theory: Kardefelt-Winther (2014) proposes that individuals turn to media to offset offline stressors. While this can relieve tension, it may also fuel avoidance if deeper problems remain unresolved.

Together, these theories explain why emotionally motivated phone use can bring short-term relief but also carry long-term risks.

'''Research evidence'''

Moderate use of relaxation apps, mindfulness tools, or supportive messaging can reduce stress and improve wellbeing in the short term (Reinecke &amp; Eden, 2016). Social sharing and online self-expression offer [[wikipedia:Catharsis|catharsis]] and strengthen social bonds, consistent with mood management theory (Kim &amp; Lee, 2011). Additional evidence shows that reappraisal through positive online content may enhance emotional resilience (Park &amp; Valenzuela, 2009).

However, risks arise when emotional regulation relies too heavily on smartphones. Escaping stress through constant phone use has been linked to procrastination, avoidance, and increased stress (Elhai et al., 2019). Heavy nighttime use is consistently linked with poor sleep quality and heightened anxiety (Sleep Health Foundation, 2022). Longitudinal studies further show that depending on phones as a primary coping mechanism predicts worsening depressive symptoms over time, especially in adolescents (Kuss et al., 2018). These findings illustrate the shift from adaptive distraction to maladaptive dependence when stressors remain unaddressed.

[[File:Young boy struggling to sleep.png|thumb|''Figure 5.'' Illustration of a young boy struggling to fall asleep at night because he is using his phone before bed.]]'''Summary'''

Emotion regulation theory highlights how phones provide quick access to distraction and reappraisal. Mood management theory explains why people seek uplifting or entertaining content. Compensatory internet use theory clarifies why these strategies sometimes slip into avoidance and dependency. Using digital tools is most beneficial when they complement healthy offline coping strategies such as problem-solving, rest, and social support, rather than replacing them (Kushlev et al., 2016).

== Practical implications ==
To promote healthier smartphone use, strategies must address the different motivations that drive behaviour. Grounding these strategies in psychological theory ensures that they move beyond surface-level advice and instead build lasting skills for wellbeing. By tailoring strategies, smartphone use can shift from automatic or avoidant behaviours to intentional habits that enhance autonomy, competence, and relatedness (Deci &amp; Ryan, 2000).

'''Instrumental use'''

Smartphones are valuable tools for organisation, navigation, and learning. Using calendar apps, focus timers, and note-taking platforms can strengthen autonomy and competence (Deci &amp; Ryan, 2000). Practical strategies could include driving offline routes to maintain spatial awareness while reducing an over-reliance on devices like GPS (Ruginski et al., 2019). Also, reflecting on which apps genuinely support goals helps build self-regulation (Hadlington, 2015). Workplaces, schools, and families can also encourage digital literacy training to help people use apps more intentionally, aligning with self-regulation theory, which emphasises feedback and planning in achieving goals.

'''Hedonic use'''

Phones provide entertainment and while these activities can improve mood, excessive use can disrupt sleep and concentration (Exelmans &amp; Van den Bulck, 2016). Practical strategies include setting app timers, scheduling intentional leisure breaks, and prioritising stimulating media over passive media (Sundar &amp; Limperos, 2013). Choosing creativity-focused or interactive content enhances wellbeing. Also reducing device use before sleep supports circadian rhythms and reduces fatigue (Exelmans &amp; Van den Bulck, 2016). From the perspective of mood management theory (Zillmann, 1988), these strategies work by channelling hedonic needs into intentional rather than automatic behaviours. This allows people to enjoy pleasure while minimising costs to health and productivity.

'''Social use'''

Connection with others is a central reason for phone use. Structured strategies, such as curated group chats, online communities, or family check-ins, allow people to maintain relationships without constant checking. Intentional social use through prioritising direct communication over passive scrolling strengthens bonds and wellbeing (Beyens et al., 2020). Reducing notifications or batching social media checks can lower compulsive behaviours (Przybylski et al., 2013). Reflecting on whether engagement arises from genuine interest or obligation helps protect autonomy in relationships (Kushlev et al., 2016). Compensatory Internet Use Theory (Kardefelt-Winther, 2014) suggests that many turn to digital connection to offset stress or loneliness. Pairing online interactions with offline opportunities for belonging, such as community groups or shared hobbies, can reduce dependence while still supporting relatedness.

[[File:A young girl listening to music on her phone.png|thumb|''Figure 6.'' An illustration of a young girl listening to music on her mobile phone.]]

'''Emotional use'''

Smartphones are often used to cope with stress, sadness, or boredom. Adaptive strategies include guided relaxation apps, calming audio, or mood-tracking tools, which can reduce stress in the short term (Reinecke &amp; Eden, 2016). However, coping is most effective when digital tools are paired with offline support such as rest, social support, or problem-solving (Gross, 1998). Reflective practices such as asking “Is this helping me cope, or am I avoiding?” can prevent avoidance cycles linked with poor sleep and heightened anxiety (Elhai et al., 2017). Mood management theory (Zillmann, 1988) {{ic|Not in References}} explains why uplifting content helps regulate emotions. While compensatory internet use theory highlights the risks of relying on avoidance strategies without addressing underlying stressors.

==Conclusion==
Smartphone use is driven by instrumental, hedonic, social, and emotional motivations, reflecting basic psychological needs. Psychological theories like TAM, SDT, and UGT show that phones are not inherently good or bad. Their impact depends on the motivations guiding engagement. Smartphones can support productivity, enjoyment, connection, and stress relief, but the same patterns may also foster avoidance, dependency, and reduced wellbeing. This dual role highlights the importance of intentional use. Hedonic use is most rewarding when balanced, and social connection most beneficial when authentic. Instrumental and emotional use require reflection to avoid over-reliance. Recognising personal motivations helps individuals use smartphones as tools for growth, protecting autonomy, rest, and wellbeing. By understanding these dynamics, people can shape technology into an ally for resilience rather than a source of distraction.

==See also==
* [[Motivation and emotion/Book/2021/Boredom and technology addiction|Boredom and technology addiction]] (Book chapter, 2021)
* [[Motivation and emotion/Book/2016/Mobile phone addiction|Mobile phone addiction]] (Book chapter, 2016)
* [[Motivation and emotion/Book/2017/Mobile phone addiction|Mobile phone addiction]] (Book chapter, 2017) 
* [[Motivation and emotion/Book/2023/Mobile phone use motivation|Mobile phone use motivation]] (Book chapter, 2023)

==References==
{{Hanging indent|1=

Beyens, I., Pouwels, J. L., van Driel, I. I., Keijsers, L., &amp; Valkenburg, P. M. (2020). The effect of social media on well-being differs from adolescent to adolescent. ''Scientific Reports'', ''10'', 10763. https://doi.org/10.1038/s41598-020-67727-7

Davis, F. D. (1989). Perceived usefulness, perceived ease of use, and user acceptance of information technology. ''MIS Quarterly'', ''13''(3), 319–340. https://doi.org/10.2307/249008

Deci, E. L., &amp; Ryan, R. M. (1985). ''Intrinsic motivation and self-determination in human behavior''. Plenum Press. https://doi.org/10.1007/978-1-4899-2271-7

Deci, E. L., &amp; Ryan, R. M. (2000). The “what” and “why” of goal pursuits: Human needs and the self-determination of behavior. ''Psychological Inquiry'', ''11''(4), 227–268. https://doi.org/10.1207/S15327965PLI1104_01

Elhai, J. D., Levine, J. C., Dvorak, R. D., &amp; Hall, B. J. (2017). Non-social features of smartphone use are most related to depression, anxiety and problematic smartphone use. ''Computers in Human Behavior'', ''69'', 75–82. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.chb.2016.12.023

Elhai, J. D., Yang, H., McKay, D., &amp; Asmundson, G. J. (2019). Depression and anxiety symptoms are related to problematic smartphone use severity in Chinese young adults: Fear of missing out as a mediator. ''Addictive Behaviors'', ''101'', 105962. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.addbeh.2019.04.020

Exelmans, L., &amp; Van den Bulck, J. (2016). Bedtime mobile phone use and sleep in adults. ''Social Science &amp; Medicine'', ''148'', 93–101. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.socscimed.2015.11.037

Fishbein, M., &amp; Ajzen, I. (1975). ''Belief, attitude, intention, and behavior: An introduction to theory and research''. Addison-Wesley. https://people.umass.edu/aizen/f&amp;a1975.html

Granic, I., Lobel, A., &amp; Engels, R. C. M. E. (2014). The benefits of playing video games. ''American Psychologist'', ''69''(1), 66–78. https://doi.org/10.1037/a0034857

Gross, J. J. (1998). The emerging field of emotion regulation: An integrative review. ''Review of General Psychology'', ''2''(3), 271–299. https://doi.org/10.1037/1089-2680.2.3.271

Hadlington, L. (2015). Cognitive failures in daily life: Exploring the link with Internet addiction and problematic mobile phone use. ''Computers in Human Behavior'', ''51'', 75–81. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.chb.2015.04.036

Joo, T. M., &amp; Sang, Y. (2013). Exploring Koreans’ smartphone usage: An integrated model of the technology acceptance model and uses and gratifications theory. ''Computers in Human Behavior'', ''29''(6), 2512–2518. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.chb.2013.06.002

Kardefelt-Winther, D. (2014). A conceptual and methodological critique of Internet addiction research: Towards a model of compensatory Internet use. ''Computers in Human Behavior'', ''31'', 351–354. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.chb.2013.10.059

Katz, E., Blumler, J. G., &amp; Gurevitch, M. (1973). Uses and gratifications research. ''Public Opinion Quarterly'', ''37''(4), 509–523. https://doi.org/10.1086/268109

Kim, J., &amp; Lee, J. E. R. (2011). The Facebook paths to happiness: Effects of the number of Facebook friends and self-presentation on subjective well-being. ''Cyberpsychology, Behavior, and Social Networking'', ''14''(6), 359–364. https://doi.org/10.1089/cyber.2010.0374

Kushlev, K., Proulx, J., &amp; Dunn, E. W. (2016). Digitally connected, socially disconnected: The effects of relying on technology rather than other people. ''Computers in Human Behavior'', ''58'', 140–148. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.chb.2017.07.001

Kuss, D. J., Griffiths, M. D., Karila, L., &amp; Billieux, J. (2018). Internet addiction: A systematic review of epidemiological research for the last decade. ''Current Pharmaceutical Design'', ''20''(25), 4026–4052. https://doi.org/10.2174/13816128113199990617

Meng, H., Cao, H., Hao, R., Zhou, N., Liang, Y., Wu, L., Jiang, L., Ma, R., Li, B., Deng, L., Lin, Z., Lin, X., &amp; Zhang, J. (2020). Smartphone use motivation and problematic smartphone use in a national representative sample of Chinese adolescents: The mediating roles of smartphone use time for various activities. ''Journal of behavioral addictions'', ''9''(1), 163–174. https://doi.org/10.1556/2006.2020.00004

Park, N., Kee, K. F., &amp; Valenzuela, S. (2009). Being immersed in social networking environment: Facebook groups, uses and gratifications, and social outcomes. ''Cyberpsychology, Behavior, and Social Networking'', ''13''(6), 357–360. https://doi.org/10.1089/cpb.2009.0003

Przybylski, A. K., Murayama, K., DeHaan, C. R., &amp; Gladwell, V. (2013). Motivational, emotional, and behavioral correlates of fear of missing out. ''Computers in Human Behavior'', ''29''(4), 1841–1848. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.chb.2013.02.014

Reinecke, L., &amp; Eden, A. (2016). Media use and recreation: Media-induced recovery as a link between media exposure and well-being. In L. Reinecke &amp; M. B. Oliver (Eds.), ''The Routledge handbook of media use and well-being'' (pp. 106–117). Routledge. https://doi.org/10.4324/9781315714752

Ruginski, I. T., Creem-Regehr, S. H., Stefanucci, J. K., &amp; Cashdan, E. (2019). GPS use negatively affects environmental learning through spatial transformation abilities. ''Journal of Environmental Psychology'', ''64'', 12–20. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.jenvp.2019.05.001

Sundar, S. S., &amp; Limperos, A. M. (2013). Uses and grats 2.0: New gratifications for new media. ''Journal of Broadcasting &amp; Electronic Media'', ''57''(4), 504–525. https://doi.org/10.1080/08838151.2013.845827

Wilson, S. A., Byrne, P., Rodgers, S. E., &amp; Maden, M. (2022). A systematic review of smartphone and tablet use by older adults with and without cognitive impairment. ''Innovation in Aging'', ''6''(2), igac002. https://doi.org/10.1093/geroni/igac002

}}

==External links==
* [https://www.sleephealthfoundation.org.au/sleep-topics/technology-and-sleep Technology and sleep] (Sleep Health Foundation)
* [https://www.missionaustralia.com.au/publications/youth-survey/state-reports-2022?layout=columns Youth survey report 2022] (Mission Australia)

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[[Category:Motivation and emotion/Book/Mobile phone]]
[[Category:Motivation and emotion/Book/Motivation]]</text>
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      <text bytes="30556" sha1="sdrq16ftkoslq4igcw3rhhq8xfni6an" xml:space="preserve">{{title|Mobile phone use motivation:&lt;br&gt;What are the motivations for mobile phone use?}}
__TOC__

== Overview ==
{{RoundBoxTop|theme=3}}
[[File:Phone use on a train.png|thumb|''' ''Figure 1''.''' People using their phone on the train.]]

'''Imagine this ...'''

You are sitting on a crowded train after a long day. A young boy nearby laughs at a meme on Instagram. A woman beside him scrolls through her messages. Across the aisle, a student types reminders into a calendar app. Next to you, a man endlessly scrolls through social media updates. What draws each of these people to their phone? Is it comfort, connection, distraction, or control? These are everyday actions, yet behind them lie hidden motivations that shape our relationship with smartphones.
{{RoundBoxBottom}}

[[wikipedia:Mobile_phone|Mobile phones]] are central to modern life, influencing how people work, connect, and cope with [[wikipedia:Stress_(biology)|stress]]. Their use is driven by complex psychological needs that affect daily [[wikipedia:Behavior|behaviour]] and [[wikipedia:Well-being|wellbeing]]. Understanding these [[wikipedia:Motivation|motivations]] reveals why people engage with phones in unique ways, and why these behaviours can bring both benefits and challenges. [[wikipedia:Smartphone|Smartphones]] enhance productivity, entertainment, and social bonds. Yet, excessive or compulsive use can lead to [[wikipedia:Procrastination|procrastination]], [[wikipedia:Anxiety|anxiety]], and emotional [[wikipedia:Avoidance_coping|avoidance]]. This chapter explores how motivations shape phone use and offers strategies for healthier, intentional smartphone use that supports wellbeing.

{{RoundBoxTop|theme=3}}
'''Focus questions'''
* What motivates people to use smartphones in their daily lives?
* What psychological theories explain these motivations?
* How do different motivations impact wellbeing in positive and negative ways?
* What strategies can encourage mindful and beneficial phone use?
{{RoundBoxBottom}}

== Key motivations for mobile phone use ==
People use mobile phones to satisfy different psychological needs. These needs are typically categorised as instrumental (task-focused), hedonic (pleasure-oriented), social (connection-based), and emotional (coping-related) (Sundar &amp; Limperos, 2013). These motivations explain how phones are integrated into daily life and how they influence wellbeing (Davis, 1989).

== Instrumental and pragmatic motivations ==
{{RoundBoxTop|theme=1}}[[File:Boy from vector.svg|30px|link=]] '''Case example: Alex'''

Alex starts each morning by checking the weather app, navigating traffic with GPS, reviewing lecture notes, and setting assignments reminders. Each action is purposeful and task-oriented. His smartphone works as a practical assistant, helping him manage academic and daily tasks.
{{RoundBoxBottom}}

Instrumental motivations describe using phones to achieve specific goals. These motivations support productivity, scheduling, navigation, and information access (Joo &amp; Sang, 2013). Pragmatic motivations are a subtype of instrumental motivations, focusing on immediate benefits such as reassurance during emergencies or quick information access (Meng et al., 2020). Together, these motivations position smartphones as essential tools for managing everyday life (Wilson et al., 2022).

[[File:Online calendar used for scheduling.png|thumb|''Figure 2.'' An example of an online calendar used daily to organise and schedule tasks.|300x300px]]'''Theoretical explanation'''

Two psychological models explain these motivations.
*The [[wikipedia:Technology_acceptance_model|technology acceptance model]] (TAM): TAM proposes that technology use depends on perceived usefulness and ease of use (Davis, 1989). When phones are both effective and effortless, they are more likely to be integrated into daily routines. This aligns with the [[wikipedia:Theory_of_reasoned_action|theory of reasoned action]], which views attitudes as strong predictors of behaviour (Fishbein &amp; Ajzen, 1975).
*The [[wikipedia:Uses_and_gratifications_theory|uses and gratifications theory]] (UGT): UGT views smartphone users as active decision-makers who adopt media to fulfil personal needs (Katz et al., 1973). Instrumental use reflects utility-based gratifications, such as finding directions, setting reminders, or contacting help (Park et al., 2009).

These models show how technology design and user choice shape instrumental motivation.

'''Research evidence'''

Instrumental phone use is consistently linked to positive outcomes. Purposeful engagement such as accessing information, improving productivity, and navigating with GPS supports daily functioning (Wilson et al., 2022). For older adults, instrumental use helps coordinate activities and supports both cognitive and social functioning (Wilson et al., 2022). Pragmatic motivations extend these benefits by providing reassurance and safety, especially during emergencies (Meng et al., 2020). From TAM's perspective, these outcomes illustrate how perceived usefulness encourages routine phone behaviour (Davis, 1989).

Meng et al. (2020) found that instrumental use is less likely to lead to dependency compared to hedonic or emotional motivations. This suggests instrumental use promotes a balanced engagement with smartphones. However, risks exist. An over-reliance on GPS may impair spatial awareness (Ruginski et al., 2019), and habitual checking of reminders can weaken memory and problem-solving skills (Elhai et al., 2017). UGT helps explain this shift from adaptive to maladaptive outcomes. While users initially select tools for convenience, {{g]} however reliance can turn into habit, diminishing autonomy and flexibility (Kardefelt-Winther, 2014).

'''Summary'''

Instrumental and pragmatic motivations generally support adaptive outcomes. Phones act as practical assistants, helping people stay organised, informed, and safe. TAM and UGT show that when phones are useful and easy to use, they integrate smoothly into daily life. Yet, the same convenience may reduce independence if it replaces critical skills. These motivations are most beneficial when phones complement rather than replace human capabilities (Joo &amp; Sang, 2013).

== Hedonic and entertainment motivations ==
{{RoundBoxTop|theme=2}}[[File:Girl silhouette.svg|20px|link=]] '''Case example: Sarah'''

After a long day of studying, Sarah relaxes by watching videos on TikTok or playing mobile games like Clash of Clans. These activities improve her mood and distract her from her current stress. But sometimes these activities delay her sleep and cut into her study time.
{{RoundBoxBottom}}

Hedonic motivations describe using phones for enjoyment, escape, and relief from boredom. This includes watching videos, gaming, scrolling [[wikipedia:Social_media|social media]], or listening to music. These activities provide quick pleasure and immersion (Granic et al., 2014).    
'''Theoretical explanation'''

Three psychological perspectives explain how hedonic motivations drive mobile phone use.
*The uses and gratifications theory: People actively select media to meet needs such as entertainment, diversion, and relaxation (Katz et al., 1973). Smartphones amplify these gratifications because they combine many entertainment functions in one portable device (Sundar &amp; Limperos, 2013).
*[[wikipedia:Self-determination_theory|Self-determination theory (SDT)]]: Hedonic use can satisfy the basic psychological needs for autonomy and competence, enhancing intrinsic motivation (Deci &amp; Ryan, 1985) For example, choosing a playlist supports autonomy. Beating a level in a game provides competence. Sharing a video with friends strengthens relatedness. When these needs are met, hedonic use can enhance wellbeing (Jeno et al., 2017).
*The compensatory internet use theory (CIUT): People use online entertainment to cope with stress, loneliness, or unmet needs (Kardefelt-Winther, 2014). For students like Sarah, this may mean escaping academic pressure through binge-watching or gaming. While this coping strategy may provide temporary relief, it can also become maladaptive if it replaces healthier habits like rest or social interaction (Elhai et al., 2019).

Together, these theories show that hedonic use is about mood regulation, need fulfilment, and distraction.[[File:Young boy watching a video on his phone.png|thumb|''Figure 3.'' A person enjoying watching a video on their phone.]]

'''Research evidence'''

Short bursts of gaming or video watching can reduce stress and help recovery from daily strain (Reinecke &amp; Eden, 2016). Adolescents who engage in these activities with peers also report stronger friendships and an increased sense of belonging (Granic et al., 2014). From the perspective of self-determination theory, these hedonic activities satisfy psychological needs for competence and relatedness, supporting wellbeing when used in moderation (Deci &amp; Ryan, 2000).

However, risks arise when hedonic use becomes excessive. A meta-analysis by Kuss et al. (2018) found a moderate association between hedonic phone use and poorer sleep quality. This corroborates findings from national survey data. For instance, 70% of Australian teenagers use their phones in bed, with half of them reporting shorter sleep durations (Sleep Health Foundation, 2022). The compensatory internet use theory helps explain this pattern. While entertainment can offer short-term stress relief, excessive reliance may reinforce avoidance coping, negatively affecting wellbeing over time (Elhai et al., 2017).

The uses and gratifications theory further clarifies these risks by showing how entertainment use can shift from intentional choice to automatic checking. This diminishes autonomy and reinforces distraction habits (Sundar &amp; Limperos, 2013). Similarly, the self-determination theory suggests that hedonic use dominated by stress or obligation fails to satisfy basic needs and may undermine health (Deci &amp; Ryan, 1985).

'''Summary'''

Hedonic motivations highlights the double-edged nature of mobile entertainment. When balanced, these activities fulfil psychological needs and aid recovery from stress (Reinecke &amp; Eden, 2016). Conversely, when driven by avoidance or habit, they can impair sleep, learning, and overall wellbeing (Kuss et al., 2018). The impact depends less on the technology itself and more on whether people use it as a balanced form of enjoyment or as a substitute for healthier coping strategies.

{{RoundBoxTop|theme=9}}
[[File:Thought_bubble.svg|40px|link=]]
'''Reflection box: How do you use your phone for entertainment?'''

Think about the last time you used your phone just for enjoyment (e.g., watching videos, playing games, scrolling social media). 

*Did it help you feel more relaxed or energised?
*Did it ever interfere with your sleep?
*What needs (autonomy, competence, connection) do you think were met by that phone use?
{{RoundBoxBottom}}

== Social motivations ==
{{RoundBoxTop|theme=3}}
[[File:Girl silhouette.svg|20px|link=]]
'''Case example: Taylor'''

Taylor recently moved to a new city for university. She uses messaging apps, video calls, and social media to stay in touch with old friends. These interactions help her feel connected to her community, despite the distance.
{{RoundBoxBottom}}

Taylor’s behaviour reflects social motivations. These motivations stem from the human need for connection, belonging, and validation. Phones allow people to maintain relationships, share updates and feel included regardless of distance. Social motivations include messaging, posting content, and joining online groups. While often rewarding, social use can also create pressure to stay available and can increase stress when users feel excluded (Kim &amp; Lee, 2011).  

[[File:Online course, fall 2020, Senior Citizens Write Wikipedia.png|thumb|right|''Figure 4''. A group of friends using video calls to socialise with each other.|300x300px]]

'''Theoretical explanation'''

Three psychological models explain how social motivations drive mobile phone use.
*Self-determination theory: SDT identifies relatedness as a basic psychological need, alongside autonomy and competence (Deci &amp; Ryan, 2000). Phones support relatedness by offering frequent contact (Joo &amp; Sang, 2013). However, when connections are pursued out of obligation or fear of exclusion, the benefits of relatedness decline (Kushlev et al., 2016).
*Uses and gratifications theory: UGT sees users as active decision-makers who choose media that fulfils needs such as belonging, reassurance, or identity expression (Katz et al., 1973). Phones make this easy by providing instant connection.
*Compensatory Internet Use Theory (CIUT): CIUT proposes that people use online communication to compensate for offline social challenges (Kardefelt-Winther, 2014). For example, students may rely on group chats or social media to reduce loneliness or social anxiety. While this can provide temporary comfort, it may also reinforce dependence and reduce engagement in offline interactions.

Together, these perspectives suggest that social motivations can be both supportive and anxiety-driven.

'''Research evidence'''

Research highlights both benefits and risks associated with social phone use. On the positive side, social interactions via smartphones strengthen perceived support and bonding. Tools like messaging, [[wikipedia:Videotelephony|video calls]], and [[wikipedia:Chat_room|group chats]] help reduce loneliness and help students adapt to new environments (Joo &amp; Sang, 2013). Surveys show that sharing humour, updates, and encouragement online is linked with higher wellbeing and a stronger sense of belonging (Mission Australia, 2022). These benefits are strongest when social media use is intentional. Sundar and Limperos (2013) found that focusing on meaningful exchanges rather than constant scrolling reduces loneliness and supports resilience. From the perspective of SDT, this shows how social needs for relatedness can be fulfilled in autonomy-supportive ways (Deci &amp; Ryan, 2000).

However, risks arise when social use is excessive or driven by anxiety. [[wikipedia:Fear_of_missing_out|FoMo]] is strongly linked to compulsive checking, increased stress, and sleep disturbances (Przybylski et al., 2013). Longitudinal studies show that students who mainly use phones to alleviate social anxiety report heightened distress over time (Elhai et al., 2017). This aligns with the CIUT, which suggests that digital connection can serve as avoidance coping. It offers temporary relief but reinforces dependence (Kardefelt-Winther, 2014). UGT further explains that repeated reliance on phones for reassurance fosters habitual checking rather than active coping, increasing vulnerability to problematic use (Kuss et al., 2018).

'''Summary'''

Social motivations demonstrate how phones serve as tools for belonging. When use is selective and autonomy-supportive, phones enhance wellbeing by fulfilling relatedness needs (Deci &amp; Ryan, 2000). Conversely, when driven by FoMo or avoidance, social phone use may foster stress, dependence, and reduced offline interaction (Elhai et al., 2019). A positive balance depends on whether social phone use supports authentic connection or substitutes for healthier coping strategies.

== Emotional and mood regulatory motivations ==
{{RoundBoxTop|theme=4}}
[[File:Boy from vector.svg|30px|link=]]
'''Case example: Sam'''

Sam often feels anxious before giving class presentations. To cope, he checks his phone for supportive messages and scrolls through Instagram to distract himself. This brings temporary relief but prevents him from addressing the root of his anxiety.
{{RoundBoxBottom}}

Sam’s behaviour reflects emotional and mood regulatory motivations, where phones are used to manage stress, loneliness, anxiety, sadness, or boredom. Smartphones provide immediate outlets for distraction, reassurance, or self-expression. This helps stabilise mood in the short term. These motivations stem from the basic psychological drive to regulate emotions and regain a sense of control. However, reliance on phones can shift from adaptive coping to maladaptive dependence when overused.

'''Theoretical explanation'''

Three psychological models explain these dynamics.
*[[wikipedia:Emotional_self-regulation|Emotion regulation]] theory: Gross (1998) distinguishes strategies such as distraction, reappraisal, and suppression. Phones support distraction (e.g., scrolling feeds) and can encourage reappraisal by offering uplifting or humorous content.
*[[wikipedia:Mood_management_theory|Mood management theory]]: Zillmann (1988) suggests people choose media to reduce negative states or maintain positive ones. Smartphones provide instant access to entertainment, games, and social contact, making them powerful tools for mood adjustment.
*Compensatory internet use theory: Kardefelt-Winther (2014) proposes that individuals turn to media to offset offline stressors. While this can relieve tension, it may also fuel avoidance if deeper problems remain unresolved.

Together, these theories explain why emotionally motivated phone use can bring short-term relief but also carry long-term risks.

'''Research evidence'''

Moderate use of relaxation apps, mindfulness tools, or supportive messaging can reduce stress and improve wellbeing in the short term (Reinecke &amp; Eden, 2016). Social sharing and online self-expression offer [[wikipedia:Catharsis|catharsis]] and strengthen social bonds, consistent with mood management theory (Kim &amp; Lee, 2011). Additional evidence shows that reappraisal through positive online content may enhance emotional resilience (Park &amp; Valenzuela, 2009).

However, risks arise when emotional regulation relies too heavily on smartphones. Escaping stress through constant phone use has been linked to procrastination, avoidance, and increased stress (Elhai et al., 2019). Heavy nighttime use is consistently linked with poor sleep quality and heightened anxiety (Sleep Health Foundation, 2022). Longitudinal studies further show that depending on phones as a primary coping mechanism predicts worsening depressive symptoms over time, especially in adolescents (Kuss et al., 2018). These findings illustrate the shift from adaptive distraction to maladaptive dependence when stressors remain unaddressed.

[[File:Young boy struggling to sleep.png|thumb|''Figure 5.'' Illustration of a young boy struggling to fall asleep at night because he is using his phone before bed.]]'''Summary'''

Emotion regulation theory highlights how phones provide quick access to distraction and reappraisal. Mood management theory explains why people seek uplifting or entertaining content. Compensatory internet use theory clarifies why these strategies sometimes slip into avoidance and dependency. Using digital tools is most beneficial when they complement healthy offline coping strategies such as problem-solving, rest, and social support, rather than replacing them (Kushlev et al., 2016).

== Practical implications ==
To promote healthier smartphone use, strategies must address the different motivations that drive behaviour. Grounding these strategies in psychological theory ensures that they move beyond surface-level advice and instead build lasting skills for wellbeing. By tailoring strategies, smartphone use can shift from automatic or avoidant behaviours to intentional habits that enhance autonomy, competence, and relatedness (Deci &amp; Ryan, 2000).

'''Instrumental use'''

Smartphones are valuable tools for organisation, navigation, and learning. Using calendar apps, focus timers, and note-taking platforms can strengthen autonomy and competence (Deci &amp; Ryan, 2000). Practical strategies could include driving offline routes to maintain spatial awareness while reducing an over-reliance on devices like GPS (Ruginski et al., 2019). Also, reflecting on which apps genuinely support goals helps build self-regulation (Hadlington, 2015). Workplaces, schools, and families can also encourage digital literacy training to help people use apps more intentionally, aligning with self-regulation theory, which emphasises feedback and planning in achieving goals.

'''Hedonic use'''

Phones provide entertainment and while these activities can improve mood, excessive use can disrupt sleep and concentration (Exelmans &amp; Van den Bulck, 2016). Practical strategies include setting app timers, scheduling intentional leisure breaks, and prioritising stimulating media over passive media (Sundar &amp; Limperos, 2013). Choosing creativity-focused or interactive content enhances wellbeing. Also reducing device use before sleep supports circadian rhythms and reduces fatigue (Exelmans &amp; Van den Bulck, 2016). From the perspective of mood management theory (Zillmann, 1988), these strategies work by channelling hedonic needs into intentional rather than automatic behaviours. This allows people to enjoy pleasure while minimising costs to health and productivity.

'''Social use'''

Connection with others is a central reason for phone use. Structured strategies, such as curated group chats, online communities, or family check-ins, allow people to maintain relationships without constant checking. Intentional social use through prioritising direct communication over passive scrolling strengthens bonds and wellbeing (Beyens et al., 2020). Reducing notifications or batching social media checks can lower compulsive behaviours (Przybylski et al., 2013). Reflecting on whether engagement arises from genuine interest or obligation helps protect autonomy in relationships (Kushlev et al., 2016). Compensatory Internet Use Theory (Kardefelt-Winther, 2014) suggests that many turn to digital connection to offset stress or loneliness. Pairing online interactions with offline opportunities for belonging, such as community groups or shared hobbies, can reduce dependence while still supporting relatedness.

[[File:A young girl listening to music on her phone.png|thumb|''Figure 6.'' An illustration of a young girl listening to music on her mobile phone.]]

'''Emotional use'''

Smartphones are often used to cope with stress, sadness, or boredom. Adaptive strategies include guided relaxation apps, calming audio, or mood-tracking tools, which can reduce stress in the short term (Reinecke &amp; Eden, 2016). However, coping is most effective when digital tools are paired with offline support such as rest, social support, or problem-solving (Gross, 1998). Reflective practices such as asking “Is this helping me cope, or am I avoiding?” can prevent avoidance cycles linked with poor sleep and heightened anxiety (Elhai et al., 2017). Mood management theory (Zillmann, 1988) {{ic|Not in References}} explains why uplifting content helps regulate emotions. While compensatory internet use theory highlights the risks of relying on avoidance strategies without addressing underlying stressors.

==Conclusion==
Smartphone use is driven by instrumental, hedonic, social, and emotional motivations, reflecting basic psychological needs. Psychological theories like TAM, SDT, and UGT show that phones are not inherently good or bad. Their impact depends on the motivations guiding engagement. Smartphones can support productivity, enjoyment, connection, and stress relief, but the same patterns may also foster avoidance, dependency, and reduced wellbeing. This dual role highlights the importance of intentional use. Hedonic use is most rewarding when balanced, and social connection most beneficial when authentic. Instrumental and emotional use require reflection to avoid over-reliance. Recognising personal motivations helps individuals use smartphones as tools for growth, protecting autonomy, rest, and wellbeing. By understanding these dynamics, people can shape technology into an ally for resilience rather than a source of distraction.

==See also==
* [[Motivation and emotion/Book/2021/Boredom and technology addiction|Boredom and technology addiction]] (Book chapter, 2021)
* [[Motivation and emotion/Book/2016/Mobile phone addiction|Mobile phone addiction]] (Book chapter, 2016)
* [[Motivation and emotion/Book/2017/Mobile phone addiction|Mobile phone addiction]] (Book chapter, 2017) 
* [[Motivation and emotion/Book/2023/Mobile phone use motivation|Mobile phone use motivation]] (Book chapter, 2023)

==References==
{{Hanging indent|1=

Beyens, I., Pouwels, J. L., van Driel, I. I., Keijsers, L., &amp; Valkenburg, P. M. (2020). The effect of social media on well-being differs from adolescent to adolescent. ''Scientific Reports'', ''10'', 10763. https://doi.org/10.1038/s41598-020-67727-7

Davis, F. D. (1989). Perceived usefulness, perceived ease of use, and user acceptance of information technology. ''MIS Quarterly'', ''13''(3), 319–340. https://doi.org/10.2307/249008

Deci, E. L., &amp; Ryan, R. M. (1985). ''Intrinsic motivation and self-determination in human behavior''. Plenum Press. https://doi.org/10.1007/978-1-4899-2271-7

Deci, E. L., &amp; Ryan, R. M. (2000). The “what” and “why” of goal pursuits: Human needs and the self-determination of behavior. ''Psychological Inquiry'', ''11''(4), 227–268. https://doi.org/10.1207/S15327965PLI1104_01

Elhai, J. D., Levine, J. C., Dvorak, R. D., &amp; Hall, B. J. (2017). Non-social features of smartphone use are most related to depression, anxiety and problematic smartphone use. ''Computers in Human Behavior'', ''69'', 75–82. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.chb.2016.12.023

Elhai, J. D., Yang, H., McKay, D., &amp; Asmundson, G. J. (2019). Depression and anxiety symptoms are related to problematic smartphone use severity in Chinese young adults: Fear of missing out as a mediator. ''Addictive Behaviors'', ''101'', 105962. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.addbeh.2019.04.020

Exelmans, L., &amp; Van den Bulck, J. (2016). Bedtime mobile phone use and sleep in adults. ''Social Science &amp; Medicine'', ''148'', 93–101. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.socscimed.2015.11.037

Fishbein, M., &amp; Ajzen, I. (1975). ''Belief, attitude, intention, and behavior: An introduction to theory and research''. Addison-Wesley. https://people.umass.edu/aizen/f&amp;a1975.html

Granic, I., Lobel, A., &amp; Engels, R. C. M. E. (2014). The benefits of playing video games. ''American Psychologist'', ''69''(1), 66–78. https://doi.org/10.1037/a0034857

Gross, J. J. (1998). The emerging field of emotion regulation: An integrative review. ''Review of General Psychology'', ''2''(3), 271–299. https://doi.org/10.1037/1089-2680.2.3.271

Hadlington, L. (2015). Cognitive failures in daily life: Exploring the link with Internet addiction and problematic mobile phone use. ''Computers in Human Behavior'', ''51'', 75–81. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.chb.2015.04.036

Joo, T. M., &amp; Sang, Y. (2013). Exploring Koreans’ smartphone usage: An integrated model of the technology acceptance model and uses and gratifications theory. ''Computers in Human Behavior'', ''29''(6), 2512–2518. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.chb.2013.06.002

Kardefelt-Winther, D. (2014). A conceptual and methodological critique of Internet addiction research: Towards a model of compensatory Internet use. ''Computers in Human Behavior'', ''31'', 351–354. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.chb.2013.10.059

Katz, E., Blumler, J. G., &amp; Gurevitch, M. (1973). Uses and gratifications research. ''Public Opinion Quarterly'', ''37''(4), 509–523. https://doi.org/10.1086/268109

Kim, J., &amp; Lee, J. E. R. (2011). The Facebook paths to happiness: Effects of the number of Facebook friends and self-presentation on subjective well-being. ''Cyberpsychology, Behavior, and Social Networking'', ''14''(6), 359–364. https://doi.org/10.1089/cyber.2010.0374

Kushlev, K., Proulx, J., &amp; Dunn, E. W. (2016). Digitally connected, socially disconnected: The effects of relying on technology rather than other people. ''Computers in Human Behavior'', ''58'', 140–148. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.chb.2017.07.001

Kuss, D. J., Griffiths, M. D., Karila, L., &amp; Billieux, J. (2018). Internet addiction: A systematic review of epidemiological research for the last decade. ''Current Pharmaceutical Design'', ''20''(25), 4026–4052. https://doi.org/10.2174/13816128113199990617

Meng, H., Cao, H., Hao, R., Zhou, N., Liang, Y., Wu, L., Jiang, L., Ma, R., Li, B., Deng, L., Lin, Z., Lin, X., &amp; Zhang, J. (2020). Smartphone use motivation and problematic smartphone use in a national representative sample of Chinese adolescents: The mediating roles of smartphone use time for various activities. ''Journal of behavioral addictions'', ''9''(1), 163–174. https://doi.org/10.1556/2006.2020.00004

Park, N., Kee, K. F., &amp; Valenzuela, S. (2009). Being immersed in social networking environment: Facebook groups, uses and gratifications, and social outcomes. ''Cyberpsychology, Behavior, and Social Networking'', ''13''(6), 357–360. https://doi.org/10.1089/cpb.2009.0003

Przybylski, A. K., Murayama, K., DeHaan, C. R., &amp; Gladwell, V. (2013). Motivational, emotional, and behavioral correlates of fear of missing out. ''Computers in Human Behavior'', ''29''(4), 1841–1848. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.chb.2013.02.014

Reinecke, L., &amp; Eden, A. (2016). Media use and recreation: Media-induced recovery as a link between media exposure and well-being. In L. Reinecke &amp; M. B. Oliver (Eds.), ''The Routledge handbook of media use and well-being'' (pp. 106–117). Routledge. https://doi.org/10.4324/9781315714752

Ruginski, I. T., Creem-Regehr, S. H., Stefanucci, J. K., &amp; Cashdan, E. (2019). GPS use negatively affects environmental learning through spatial transformation abilities. ''Journal of Environmental Psychology'', ''64'', 12–20. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.jenvp.2019.05.001

Sundar, S. S., &amp; Limperos, A. M. (2013). Uses and grats 2.0: New gratifications for new media. ''Journal of Broadcasting &amp; Electronic Media'', ''57''(4), 504–525. https://doi.org/10.1080/08838151.2013.845827

Wilson, S. A., Byrne, P., Rodgers, S. E., &amp; Maden, M. (2022). A systematic review of smartphone and tablet use by older adults with and without cognitive impairment. ''Innovation in Aging'', ''6''(2), igac002. https://doi.org/10.1093/geroni/igac002

}}

==External links==
* [https://www.sleephealthfoundation.org.au/sleep-topics/technology-and-sleep Technology and sleep] (Sleep Health Foundation)
* [https://www.missionaustralia.com.au/publications/youth-survey/state-reports-2022?layout=columns Youth survey report 2022] (Mission Australia)

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== Overview ==
{{RoundBoxTop|theme=3}}
[[File:Phone use on a train.png|thumb|''' ''Figure 1''.''' People using their phone on the train.]]

'''Imagine this ...'''

You are sitting on a crowded train after a long day. A young boy nearby laughs at a meme on Instagram. A woman beside him scrolls through her messages. Across the aisle, a student types reminders into a calendar app. Next to you, a man endlessly scrolls through social media updates. What draws each of these people to their phone? Is it comfort, connection, distraction, or control? These are everyday actions, yet behind them lie hidden motivations that shape our relationship with smartphones.
{{RoundBoxBottom}}

[[wikipedia:Mobile_phone|Mobile phones]] are central to modern life, influencing how people work, connect, and cope with [[wikipedia:Stress_(biology)|stress]]. Their use is driven by complex psychological needs that affect daily [[wikipedia:Behavior|behaviour]] and [[wikipedia:Well-being|wellbeing]]. Understanding these [[wikipedia:Motivation|motivations]] reveals why people engage with phones in unique ways, and why these behaviours can bring both benefits and challenges. [[wikipedia:Smartphone|Smartphones]] enhance productivity, entertainment, and social bonds. Yet, excessive or compulsive use can lead to [[wikipedia:Procrastination|procrastination]], [[wikipedia:Anxiety|anxiety]], and emotional [[wikipedia:Avoidance_coping|avoidance]]. This chapter explores how motivations shape phone use and offers strategies for healthier, intentional smartphone use that supports wellbeing.

{{RoundBoxTop|theme=3}}
'''Focus questions'''
* What motivates people to use smartphones in their daily lives?
* What psychological theories explain these motivations?
* How do different motivations impact wellbeing in positive and negative ways?
* What strategies can encourage mindful and beneficial phone use?
{{RoundBoxBottom}}

== Key motivations for mobile phone use ==
People use mobile phones to satisfy different psychological needs. These needs are typically categorised as instrumental (task-focused), hedonic (pleasure-oriented), social (connection-based), and emotional (coping-related) (Sundar &amp; Limperos, 2013). These motivations explain how phones are integrated into daily life and how they influence wellbeing (Davis, 1989).

== Instrumental and pragmatic motivations ==
{{RoundBoxTop|theme=1}}[[File:Boy from vector.svg|30px|link=]] '''Case example: Alex'''

Alex starts each morning by checking the weather app, navigating traffic with GPS, reviewing lecture notes, and setting assignments reminders. Each action is purposeful and task-oriented. His smartphone works as a practical assistant, helping him manage academic and daily tasks.
{{RoundBoxBottom}}

Instrumental motivations describe using phones to achieve specific goals. These motivations support productivity, scheduling, navigation, and information access (Joo &amp; Sang, 2013). Pragmatic motivations are a subtype of instrumental motivations, focusing on immediate benefits such as reassurance during emergencies or quick information access (Meng et al., 2020). Together, these motivations position smartphones as essential tools for managing everyday life (Wilson et al., 2022).

[[File:Online calendar used for scheduling.png|thumb|''Figure 2.'' An example of an online calendar used daily to organise and schedule tasks.|300x300px]]'''Theoretical explanation'''

Two psychological models explain these motivations.
*The [[wikipedia:Technology_acceptance_model|technology acceptance model]] (TAM): TAM proposes that technology use depends on perceived usefulness and ease of use (Davis, 1989). When phones are both effective and effortless, they are more likely to be integrated into daily routines. This aligns with the [[wikipedia:Theory_of_reasoned_action|theory of reasoned action]], which views attitudes as strong predictors of behaviour (Fishbein &amp; Ajzen, 1975).
*The [[wikipedia:Uses_and_gratifications_theory|uses and gratifications theory]] (UGT): UGT views smartphone users as active decision-makers who adopt media to fulfil personal needs (Katz et al., 1973). Instrumental use reflects utility-based gratifications, such as finding directions, setting reminders, or contacting help (Park et al., 2009).

These models show how technology design and user choice shape instrumental motivation.

'''Research evidence'''

Instrumental phone use is consistently linked to positive outcomes. Purposeful engagement such as accessing information, improving productivity, and navigating with GPS supports daily functioning (Wilson et al., 2022). For older adults, instrumental use helps coordinate activities and supports both cognitive and social functioning (Wilson et al., 2022). Pragmatic motivations extend these benefits by providing reassurance and safety, especially during emergencies (Meng et al., 2020). From TAM's perspective, these outcomes illustrate how perceived usefulness encourages routine phone behaviour (Davis, 1989).

Meng et al. (2020) found that instrumental use is less likely to lead to dependency compared to hedonic or emotional motivations. This suggests instrumental use promotes a balanced engagement with smartphones. However, risks exist. An over-reliance on GPS may impair spatial awareness (Ruginski et al., 2019), and habitual checking of reminders can weaken memory and problem-solving skills (Elhai et al., 2017). UGT helps explain this shift from adaptive to maladaptive outcomes. While users initially select tools for convenience, {{g]} however reliance can turn into habit, diminishing autonomy and flexibility (Kardefelt-Winther, 2014).

'''Summary'''

Instrumental and pragmatic motivations generally support adaptive outcomes. Phones act as practical assistants, helping people stay organised, informed, and safe. TAM and UGT show that when phones are useful and easy to use, they integrate smoothly into daily life. Yet, the same convenience may reduce independence if it replaces critical skills. These motivations are most beneficial when phones complement rather than replace human capabilities (Joo &amp; Sang, 2013).

== Hedonic and entertainment motivations ==
{{RoundBoxTop|theme=2}}[[File:Girl silhouette.svg|20px|link=]] '''Case example: Sarah'''

After a long day of studying, Sarah relaxes by watching videos on TikTok or playing mobile games like Clash of Clans. These activities improve her mood and distract her from her current stress. But sometimes these activities delay her sleep and cut into her study time.
{{RoundBoxBottom}}

[[File:Young girl Using Her Phone.jpg|thumb|''Figure 3.'' A young woman engaged in using her mobile phone.]]

Hedonic motivations describe using phones for enjoyment, escape, and relief from boredom. This includes watching videos, gaming, scrolling [[wikipedia:Social_media|social media]], or listening to music. These activities provide quick pleasure and immersion (Granic et al., 2014).    
'''Theoretical explanation'''

Three psychological perspectives explain how hedonic motivations drive mobile phone use.
*The uses and gratifications theory: People actively select media to meet needs such as entertainment, diversion, and relaxation (Katz et al., 1973). Smartphones amplify these gratifications because they combine many entertainment functions in one portable device (Sundar &amp; Limperos, 2013).
*[[wikipedia:Self-determination_theory|Self-determination theory (SDT)]]: Hedonic use can satisfy the basic psychological needs for autonomy and competence, enhancing intrinsic motivation (Deci &amp; Ryan, 1985) For example, choosing a playlist supports autonomy. Beating a level in a game provides competence. Sharing a video with friends strengthens relatedness. When these needs are met, hedonic use can enhance wellbeing (Jeno et al., 2017).
*The compensatory internet use theory (CIUT): People use online entertainment to cope with stress, loneliness, or unmet needs (Kardefelt-Winther, 2014). For students like Sarah, this may mean escaping academic pressure through binge-watching or gaming. While this coping strategy may provide temporary relief, it can also become maladaptive if it replaces healthier habits like rest or social interaction (Elhai et al., 2019).

Together, these theories show that hedonic use is about mood regulation, need fulfilment, and distraction.

'''Research evidence'''

Short bursts of gaming or video watching can reduce stress and help recovery from daily strain (Reinecke &amp; Eden, 2016). Adolescents who engage in these activities with peers also report stronger friendships and an increased sense of belonging (Granic et al., 2014). From the perspective of self-determination theory, these hedonic activities satisfy psychological needs for competence and relatedness, supporting wellbeing when used in moderation (Deci &amp; Ryan, 2000).

However, risks arise when hedonic use becomes excessive. A meta-analysis by Kuss et al. (2018) found a moderate association between hedonic phone use and poorer sleep quality. This corroborates findings from national survey data. For instance, 70% of Australian teenagers use their phones in bed, with half of them reporting shorter sleep durations (Sleep Health Foundation, 2022). The compensatory internet use theory helps explain this pattern. While entertainment can offer short-term stress relief, excessive reliance may reinforce avoidance coping, negatively affecting wellbeing over time (Elhai et al., 2017).

The uses and gratifications theory further clarifies these risks by showing how entertainment use can shift from intentional choice to automatic checking. This diminishes autonomy and reinforces distraction habits (Sundar &amp; Limperos, 2013). Similarly, the self-determination theory suggests that hedonic use dominated by stress or obligation fails to satisfy basic needs and may undermine health (Deci &amp; Ryan, 1985).

'''Summary'''

Hedonic motivations highlights the double-edged nature of mobile entertainment. When balanced, these activities fulfil psychological needs and aid recovery from stress (Reinecke &amp; Eden, 2016). Conversely, when driven by avoidance or habit, they can impair sleep, learning, and overall wellbeing (Kuss et al., 2018). The impact depends less on the technology itself and more on whether people use it as a balanced form of enjoyment or as a substitute for healthier coping strategies.

{{RoundBoxTop|theme=9}}
[[File:Thought_bubble.svg|40px|link=]]
'''Reflection box: How do you use your phone for entertainment?'''

Think about the last time you used your phone just for enjoyment (e.g., watching videos, playing games, scrolling social media). 

*Did it help you feel more relaxed or energised?
*Did it ever interfere with your sleep?
*What needs (autonomy, competence, connection) do you think were met by that phone use?
{{RoundBoxBottom}}

== Social motivations ==
{{RoundBoxTop|theme=3}}
[[File:Girl silhouette.svg|20px|link=]]
'''Case example: Taylor'''

Taylor recently moved to a new city for university. She uses messaging apps, video calls, and social media to stay in touch with old friends. These interactions help her feel connected to her community, despite the distance.
{{RoundBoxBottom}}

Taylor’s behaviour reflects social motivations. These motivations stem from the human need for connection, belonging, and validation. Phones allow people to maintain relationships, share updates and feel included regardless of distance. Social motivations include messaging, posting content, and joining online groups. While often rewarding, social use can also create pressure to stay available and can increase stress when users feel excluded (Kim &amp; Lee, 2011).  

[[File:Online course, fall 2020, Senior Citizens Write Wikipedia.png|thumb|right|''Figure 4''. A group of friends using video calls to socialise with each other.|300x300px]]

'''Theoretical explanation'''

Three psychological models explain how social motivations drive mobile phone use.
*Self-determination theory: SDT identifies relatedness as a basic psychological need, alongside autonomy and competence (Deci &amp; Ryan, 2000). Phones support relatedness by offering frequent contact (Joo &amp; Sang, 2013). However, when connections are pursued out of obligation or fear of exclusion, the benefits of relatedness decline (Kushlev et al., 2016).
*Uses and gratifications theory: UGT sees users as active decision-makers who choose media that fulfils needs such as belonging, reassurance, or identity expression (Katz et al., 1973). Phones make this easy by providing instant connection.
*Compensatory Internet Use Theory (CIUT): CIUT proposes that people use online communication to compensate for offline social challenges (Kardefelt-Winther, 2014). For example, students may rely on group chats or social media to reduce loneliness or social anxiety. While this can provide temporary comfort, it may also reinforce dependence and reduce engagement in offline interactions.

Together, these perspectives suggest that social motivations can be both supportive and anxiety-driven.

'''Research evidence'''

Research highlights both benefits and risks associated with social phone use. On the positive side, social interactions via smartphones strengthen perceived support and bonding. Tools like messaging, [[wikipedia:Videotelephony|video calls]], and [[wikipedia:Chat_room|group chats]] help reduce loneliness and help students adapt to new environments (Joo &amp; Sang, 2013). Surveys show that sharing humour, updates, and encouragement online is linked with higher wellbeing and a stronger sense of belonging (Mission Australia, 2022). These benefits are strongest when social media use is intentional. Sundar and Limperos (2013) found that focusing on meaningful exchanges rather than constant scrolling reduces loneliness and supports resilience. From the perspective of SDT, this shows how social needs for relatedness can be fulfilled in autonomy-supportive ways (Deci &amp; Ryan, 2000).

However, risks arise when social use is excessive or driven by anxiety. [[wikipedia:Fear_of_missing_out|FoMo]] is strongly linked to compulsive checking, increased stress, and sleep disturbances (Przybylski et al., 2013). Longitudinal studies show that students who mainly use phones to alleviate social anxiety report heightened distress over time (Elhai et al., 2017). This aligns with the CIUT, which suggests that digital connection can serve as avoidance coping. It offers temporary relief but reinforces dependence (Kardefelt-Winther, 2014). UGT further explains that repeated reliance on phones for reassurance fosters habitual checking rather than active coping, increasing vulnerability to problematic use (Kuss et al., 2018).

'''Summary'''

Social motivations demonstrate how phones serve as tools for belonging. When use is selective and autonomy-supportive, phones enhance wellbeing by fulfilling relatedness needs (Deci &amp; Ryan, 2000). Conversely, when driven by FoMo or avoidance, social phone use may foster stress, dependence, and reduced offline interaction (Elhai et al., 2019). A positive balance depends on whether social phone use supports authentic connection or substitutes for healthier coping strategies.

== Emotional and mood regulatory motivations ==
{{RoundBoxTop|theme=4}}
[[File:Boy from vector.svg|30px|link=]]
'''Case example: Sam'''

Sam often feels anxious before giving class presentations. To cope, he checks his phone for supportive messages and scrolls through Instagram to distract himself. This brings temporary relief but prevents him from addressing the root of his anxiety.
{{RoundBoxBottom}}

Sam’s behaviour reflects emotional and mood regulatory motivations, where phones are used to manage stress, loneliness, anxiety, sadness, or boredom. Smartphones provide immediate outlets for distraction, reassurance, or self-expression. This helps stabilise mood in the short term. These motivations stem from the basic psychological drive to regulate emotions and regain a sense of control. However, reliance on phones can shift from adaptive coping to maladaptive dependence when overused.

'''Theoretical explanation'''

Three psychological models explain these dynamics.
*[[wikipedia:Emotional_self-regulation|Emotion regulation]] theory: Gross (1998) distinguishes strategies such as distraction, reappraisal, and suppression. Phones support distraction (e.g., scrolling feeds) and can encourage reappraisal by offering uplifting or humorous content.
*[[wikipedia:Mood_management_theory|Mood management theory]]: Zillmann (1988) suggests people choose media to reduce negative states or maintain positive ones. Smartphones provide instant access to entertainment, games, and social contact, making them powerful tools for mood adjustment.
*Compensatory internet use theory: Kardefelt-Winther (2014) proposes that individuals turn to media to offset offline stressors. While this can relieve tension, it may also fuel avoidance if deeper problems remain unresolved.

Together, these theories explain why emotionally motivated phone use can bring short-term relief but also carry long-term risks.

'''Research evidence'''

Moderate use of relaxation apps, mindfulness tools, or supportive messaging can reduce stress and improve wellbeing in the short term (Reinecke &amp; Eden, 2016). Social sharing and online self-expression offer [[wikipedia:Catharsis|catharsis]] and strengthen social bonds, consistent with mood management theory (Kim &amp; Lee, 2011). Additional evidence shows that reappraisal through positive online content may enhance emotional resilience (Park &amp; Valenzuela, 2009).

However, risks arise when emotional regulation relies too heavily on smartphones. Escaping stress through constant phone use has been linked to procrastination, avoidance, and increased stress (Elhai et al., 2019). Heavy nighttime use is consistently linked with poor sleep quality and heightened anxiety (Sleep Health Foundation, 2022). Longitudinal studies further show that depending on phones as a primary coping mechanism predicts worsening depressive symptoms over time, especially in adolescents (Kuss et al., 2018). These findings illustrate the shift from adaptive distraction to maladaptive dependence when stressors remain unaddressed.

[[File:Young boy struggling to sleep.png|thumb|''Figure 5.'' Illustration of a young boy struggling to fall asleep at night because he is using his phone before bed.]]'''Summary'''

Emotion regulation theory highlights how phones provide quick access to distraction and reappraisal. Mood management theory explains why people seek uplifting or entertaining content. Compensatory internet use theory clarifies why these strategies sometimes slip into avoidance and dependency. Using digital tools is most beneficial when they complement healthy offline coping strategies such as problem-solving, rest, and social support, rather than replacing them (Kushlev et al., 2016).

== Practical implications ==
To promote healthier smartphone use, strategies must address the different motivations that drive behaviour. Grounding these strategies in psychological theory ensures that they move beyond surface-level advice and instead build lasting skills for wellbeing. By tailoring strategies, smartphone use can shift from automatic or avoidant behaviours to intentional habits that enhance autonomy, competence, and relatedness (Deci &amp; Ryan, 2000).

'''Instrumental use'''

Smartphones are valuable tools for organisation, navigation, and learning. Using calendar apps, focus timers, and note-taking platforms can strengthen autonomy and competence (Deci &amp; Ryan, 2000). Practical strategies could include driving offline routes to maintain spatial awareness while reducing an over-reliance on devices like GPS (Ruginski et al., 2019). Also, reflecting on which apps genuinely support goals helps build self-regulation (Hadlington, 2015). Workplaces, schools, and families can also encourage digital literacy training to help people use apps more intentionally, aligning with self-regulation theory, which emphasises feedback and planning in achieving goals.

'''Hedonic use'''

Phones provide entertainment and while these activities can improve mood, excessive use can disrupt sleep and concentration (Exelmans &amp; Van den Bulck, 2016). Practical strategies include setting app timers, scheduling intentional leisure breaks, and prioritising stimulating media over passive media (Sundar &amp; Limperos, 2013). Choosing creativity-focused or interactive content enhances wellbeing. Also reducing device use before sleep supports circadian rhythms and reduces fatigue (Exelmans &amp; Van den Bulck, 2016). From the perspective of mood management theory (Zillmann, 1988), these strategies work by channelling hedonic needs into intentional rather than automatic behaviours. This allows people to enjoy pleasure while minimising costs to health and productivity.

'''Social use'''

Connection with others is a central reason for phone use. Structured strategies, such as curated group chats, online communities, or family check-ins, allow people to maintain relationships without constant checking. Intentional social use through prioritising direct communication over passive scrolling strengthens bonds and wellbeing (Beyens et al., 2020). Reducing notifications or batching social media checks can lower compulsive behaviours (Przybylski et al., 2013). Reflecting on whether engagement arises from genuine interest or obligation helps protect autonomy in relationships (Kushlev et al., 2016). Compensatory Internet Use Theory (Kardefelt-Winther, 2014) suggests that many turn to digital connection to offset stress or loneliness. Pairing online interactions with offline opportunities for belonging, such as community groups or shared hobbies, can reduce dependence while still supporting relatedness.

[[File:A young girl listening to music on her phone.png|thumb|''Figure 6.'' An illustration of a young girl listening to music on her mobile phone.]]

'''Emotional use'''

Smartphones are often used to cope with stress, sadness, or boredom. Adaptive strategies include guided relaxation apps, calming audio, or mood-tracking tools, which can reduce stress in the short term (Reinecke &amp; Eden, 2016). However, coping is most effective when digital tools are paired with offline support such as rest, social support, or problem-solving (Gross, 1998). Reflective practices such as asking “Is this helping me cope, or am I avoiding?” can prevent avoidance cycles linked with poor sleep and heightened anxiety (Elhai et al., 2017). Mood management theory (Zillmann, 1988) {{ic|Not in References}} explains why uplifting content helps regulate emotions. While compensatory internet use theory highlights the risks of relying on avoidance strategies without addressing underlying stressors.

==Conclusion==
Smartphone use is driven by instrumental, hedonic, social, and emotional motivations, reflecting basic psychological needs. Psychological theories like TAM, SDT, and UGT show that phones are not inherently good or bad. Their impact depends on the motivations guiding engagement. Smartphones can support productivity, enjoyment, connection, and stress relief, but the same patterns may also foster avoidance, dependency, and reduced wellbeing. This dual role highlights the importance of intentional use. Hedonic use is most rewarding when balanced, and social connection most beneficial when authentic. Instrumental and emotional use require reflection to avoid over-reliance. Recognising personal motivations helps individuals use smartphones as tools for growth, protecting autonomy, rest, and wellbeing. By understanding these dynamics, people can shape technology into an ally for resilience rather than a source of distraction.

==See also==
* [[Motivation and emotion/Book/2021/Boredom and technology addiction|Boredom and technology addiction]] (Book chapter, 2021)
* [[Motivation and emotion/Book/2016/Mobile phone addiction|Mobile phone addiction]] (Book chapter, 2016)
* [[Motivation and emotion/Book/2017/Mobile phone addiction|Mobile phone addiction]] (Book chapter, 2017) 
* [[Motivation and emotion/Book/2023/Mobile phone use motivation|Mobile phone use motivation]] (Book chapter, 2023)

==References==
{{Hanging indent|1=

Beyens, I., Pouwels, J. L., van Driel, I. I., Keijsers, L., &amp; Valkenburg, P. M. (2020). The effect of social media on well-being differs from adolescent to adolescent. ''Scientific Reports'', ''10'', 10763. https://doi.org/10.1038/s41598-020-67727-7

Davis, F. D. (1989). Perceived usefulness, perceived ease of use, and user acceptance of information technology. ''MIS Quarterly'', ''13''(3), 319–340. https://doi.org/10.2307/249008

Deci, E. L., &amp; Ryan, R. M. (1985). ''Intrinsic motivation and self-determination in human behavior''. Plenum Press. https://doi.org/10.1007/978-1-4899-2271-7

Deci, E. L., &amp; Ryan, R. M. (2000). The “what” and “why” of goal pursuits: Human needs and the self-determination of behavior. ''Psychological Inquiry'', ''11''(4), 227–268. https://doi.org/10.1207/S15327965PLI1104_01

Elhai, J. D., Levine, J. C., Dvorak, R. D., &amp; Hall, B. J. (2017). Non-social features of smartphone use are most related to depression, anxiety and problematic smartphone use. ''Computers in Human Behavior'', ''69'', 75–82. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.chb.2016.12.023

Elhai, J. D., Yang, H., McKay, D., &amp; Asmundson, G. J. (2019). Depression and anxiety symptoms are related to problematic smartphone use severity in Chinese young adults: Fear of missing out as a mediator. ''Addictive Behaviors'', ''101'', 105962. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.addbeh.2019.04.020

Exelmans, L., &amp; Van den Bulck, J. (2016). Bedtime mobile phone use and sleep in adults. ''Social Science &amp; Medicine'', ''148'', 93–101. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.socscimed.2015.11.037

Fishbein, M., &amp; Ajzen, I. (1975). ''Belief, attitude, intention, and behavior: An introduction to theory and research''. Addison-Wesley. https://people.umass.edu/aizen/f&amp;a1975.html

Granic, I., Lobel, A., &amp; Engels, R. C. M. E. (2014). The benefits of playing video games. ''American Psychologist'', ''69''(1), 66–78. https://doi.org/10.1037/a0034857

Gross, J. J. (1998). The emerging field of emotion regulation: An integrative review. ''Review of General Psychology'', ''2''(3), 271–299. https://doi.org/10.1037/1089-2680.2.3.271

Hadlington, L. (2015). Cognitive failures in daily life: Exploring the link with Internet addiction and problematic mobile phone use. ''Computers in Human Behavior'', ''51'', 75–81. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.chb.2015.04.036

Joo, T. M., &amp; Sang, Y. (2013). Exploring Koreans’ smartphone usage: An integrated model of the technology acceptance model and uses and gratifications theory. ''Computers in Human Behavior'', ''29''(6), 2512–2518. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.chb.2013.06.002

Kardefelt-Winther, D. (2014). A conceptual and methodological critique of Internet addiction research: Towards a model of compensatory Internet use. ''Computers in Human Behavior'', ''31'', 351–354. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.chb.2013.10.059

Katz, E., Blumler, J. G., &amp; Gurevitch, M. (1973). Uses and gratifications research. ''Public Opinion Quarterly'', ''37''(4), 509–523. https://doi.org/10.1086/268109

Kim, J., &amp; Lee, J. E. R. (2011). The Facebook paths to happiness: Effects of the number of Facebook friends and self-presentation on subjective well-being. ''Cyberpsychology, Behavior, and Social Networking'', ''14''(6), 359–364. https://doi.org/10.1089/cyber.2010.0374

Kushlev, K., Proulx, J., &amp; Dunn, E. W. (2016). Digitally connected, socially disconnected: The effects of relying on technology rather than other people. ''Computers in Human Behavior'', ''58'', 140–148. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.chb.2017.07.001

Kuss, D. J., Griffiths, M. D., Karila, L., &amp; Billieux, J. (2018). Internet addiction: A systematic review of epidemiological research for the last decade. ''Current Pharmaceutical Design'', ''20''(25), 4026–4052. https://doi.org/10.2174/13816128113199990617

Meng, H., Cao, H., Hao, R., Zhou, N., Liang, Y., Wu, L., Jiang, L., Ma, R., Li, B., Deng, L., Lin, Z., Lin, X., &amp; Zhang, J. (2020). Smartphone use motivation and problematic smartphone use in a national representative sample of Chinese adolescents: The mediating roles of smartphone use time for various activities. ''Journal of behavioral addictions'', ''9''(1), 163–174. https://doi.org/10.1556/2006.2020.00004

Park, N., Kee, K. F., &amp; Valenzuela, S. (2009). Being immersed in social networking environment: Facebook groups, uses and gratifications, and social outcomes. ''Cyberpsychology, Behavior, and Social Networking'', ''13''(6), 357–360. https://doi.org/10.1089/cpb.2009.0003

Przybylski, A. K., Murayama, K., DeHaan, C. R., &amp; Gladwell, V. (2013). Motivational, emotional, and behavioral correlates of fear of missing out. ''Computers in Human Behavior'', ''29''(4), 1841–1848. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.chb.2013.02.014

Reinecke, L., &amp; Eden, A. (2016). Media use and recreation: Media-induced recovery as a link between media exposure and well-being. In L. Reinecke &amp; M. B. Oliver (Eds.), ''The Routledge handbook of media use and well-being'' (pp. 106–117). Routledge. https://doi.org/10.4324/9781315714752

Ruginski, I. T., Creem-Regehr, S. H., Stefanucci, J. K., &amp; Cashdan, E. (2019). GPS use negatively affects environmental learning through spatial transformation abilities. ''Journal of Environmental Psychology'', ''64'', 12–20. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.jenvp.2019.05.001

Sundar, S. S., &amp; Limperos, A. M. (2013). Uses and grats 2.0: New gratifications for new media. ''Journal of Broadcasting &amp; Electronic Media'', ''57''(4), 504–525. https://doi.org/10.1080/08838151.2013.845827

Wilson, S. A., Byrne, P., Rodgers, S. E., &amp; Maden, M. (2022). A systematic review of smartphone and tablet use by older adults with and without cognitive impairment. ''Innovation in Aging'', ''6''(2), igac002. https://doi.org/10.1093/geroni/igac002

}}

==External links==
* [https://www.sleephealthfoundation.org.au/sleep-topics/technology-and-sleep Technology and sleep] (Sleep Health Foundation)
* [https://www.missionaustralia.com.au/publications/youth-survey/state-reports-2022?layout=columns Youth survey report 2022] (Mission Australia)

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      <text bytes="25730" sha1="hhxp9japm30mynw1k6wtxj275me34gf" xml:space="preserve">{{title|Bottom-line mentality and motivation:&lt;br&gt;How does a focus on the bottom line affect motivation and behaviour?}}
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__TOC__

==Overview==
{{RoundBoxTop|theme=3}}
[[File:Person vor Computer.jpg|thumb|Figure 1. Employee focusing on laptop]]

;Scenario

Imagine you are an employee at a large financial firm who has been employed at the company for a few years now. You have always enjoyed your job, the work culture is very positive, you enjoy a full hour long lunch time which allows you to go for a walk outside everyday, and you feel good about working hard and performing for your supervisors. One day you are told a new CEO will take over, a CEO with a reputation for strong leadership and high level performance.

A few months in, you soon realise the CEO prioritises profits above all else, leading to staff cuts and increased workloads. You have begun working overtime without pay, skipping breaks to ensure avoiding being labeled as lazy or underperforming. The pressure quickly feels immense and the positive work culture you once enjoyed has disappeared, leaving employee morale low.

Over time, you begin to notice that the performance quality and customer service has dropped significantly. Meanwhile, management remains focused on cost-cutting and pushing employees harder and harder. Eventually, customers express unhappiness for the lack of good service the company once had, performance has noticeably dropped, and the company's reputation suffers, ultimately revealing the unfortunate consequences in its relentless bottom-line mentality.
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A bottom-line mentality (BLM) has been defined as “1-dimensional thinking that revolves around securing bottom-line outcomes to the neglect of competing priorities” (Greenbaum et al., 2012). It is often, but not always, showcased in an organisational setting, where a tunnel vision focus on achieving the bottom-line sees the disregard of competing work and life priorities (Greenbaum et al., 2023).

The term “bottom line” is typically described as the “results that count” or the “final summing up” within its particular context (Wolfe, 1988). For example, in a workplace setting, the bottom-line is usually defined in terms of performance and financial outcomes which implicate the success of the organisation or employee. However, the bottom line ''mentality'' is a concept reflecting a narrow frame of mind with a tunnel vision focus on achieving the outcomes which support an individual or organisation’s financial viability and success (Greenbaum et al., 20120). As such, the BLM has been heavily researched in this area, identifying both favourable (e.g., increased performance outcomes (Babalola et al., 2020)) and unfavourable outcomes (e.g., unethical conduct (Ge, 2018)).

{{RoundBoxTop|theme=3}}
'''Focus questions:'''
* What is the relationship between bottom-line mentality and motivation?
* What are the positive and negative implications of a bottom-line mentality?
* How can a focus on the bottom-line enhance motivation in some contexts while undermining it in others?
{{RoundBoxBottom}}

==A bottom-line mentality in the workplace==
BLM has been heavily focused in the context of organisational settings, as a company’s success and longevity are driven by its economic well-being and ability to maintain profitability (Carroll, 1991). Likewise, existing literature exploring BLM reveals an intertwined relationship between employee and organisation. Employees achieving their own bottom-line metrics (e.g., reaching X target, selling X products) benefits the organisation’s profitability, the same way the organisation achieving their bottom-line metrics (e.g., increasing shareholder value) positively affects employees (e.g., shared profits, job security) (Greenbaum et al., 2023).

[[File:3D Team Leadership Arrow Concept.jpg|thumb|Figure 2. Influence of leadership]]

=== Leadership ===
The [[w:leader-member_exchange_theory|leader-member exchange]] (LMX) is an exchange process between supervisors and their subordinates, where leaders establish either high or low quality relationships with employees. This essentially leads to increased or decreased effort, loyalty, and performance (Dionne et al., 2010), which has been found to be reflective in a BLM in both parties, highlighting the importance of [[Motivation and emotion/Book/2023/Effective leadership|leadership]] styles in the workplace (Quade et al., 2019). Research reveals the impact of LMX, as supervisor behaviours and attitudes play a key role in shaping employee’s attitudes and behaviours, often reflecting that of their superiors (e.g., Duffy et al., 2002). Hence, leaders with a high BLM display a one-dimensional leadership approach, almost exclusively focusing on reaching organisational targets and goals. As such, employee wellbeing, psychological safety, learning, and collaboration is neglected. This style of leadership fails to provide the support necessary to encourage intrinsic motivation necessary for high performance and happy employees (Lin et al., 2022).

=== Employee performance ===
In the context of BLM, employee performance and productivity is identified to be greatly dependent on the LMX relationship with the supervisor, which is further complicated by the employee’s individual BLM, regardless if it matches or misaligns with their supervisor, essentially reflecting in their performance. This is important as extant research shows how supervisor BLM impacts employee emotions and subsequent behaviours (Bonner et al., 2017), as well as employee BLM effects disfavourable employee behaviours (Eissa et al., 2020). Quade and colleagues{{g}} (2019) findings supported much of the existing literature, suggesting that employees suffer when their supervisor has a high BLM, regardless if their own BLM is high or low. They found that when employees and supervisors alike had a high BLM, the negative effect on performance was not mitigated, only buffered, revealing that no degree of supervisor BLM is particularly beneficial. 

== Outcomes and implications associated with a bottom-line mentality ==
A BLM results in a wide range of behavioural and performance outcomes, as the mentality is constructed around achieving certain goals. As such, positive and negative implications may arise, both revealing short-term and long-term consequences.

=== Negative implications ===
Kamran and colleagues (2022) propose that a majority of unethical workplace practices, such as workplace cheating, is caused by undue performance pressure from supervisors which create a highly competitive workplace environment driven by a BLM. As such, several disfavourable BLM-related behaviours are likely to express themselves, such as increased coworker undermining (Greenbaum et al., 2012), abusive supervisions (Mawrtiz et al., 2017), and unethical behaviours in the workplace (Mesdaghinia et al., 2019). While these behaviours are highly problematic in a workplace setting, they risk reflecting negatively for individuals on a cognitive and emotional level. For example, Mitchell et al. (2018) discusses how a BLM triggers workaholism, leading to psychological entitlement. This may be equally as dangerous as performance pressure leading to anger, triggering self-protection, leading to self-serving cognitions, and then resulting in individuals engaging in unethical behaviours for self-gain. Although these behaviours are showcased in the process of bottom-line attainment, and may be deemed as “worthwhile” for company performance, this is often not the case. High BLM supervisors solely signal the importance of task performance to their subordinates, and in turn, they create low quality relationships. Therefore, the employees are likely to reciprocate by withholding what BLM supervisors desire most - performance and results (Mawritz et al., 2017). As such, this desire for bottom-line attainment ultimately inflicts harm to the organisation itself (Mitchell et al., 2018).

=== Positive implications ===
Despite the seemingly extensive breadth of negative implications that can arise in a workplace characterised by a bottom-line attainment, extant research reveals evidence to support a BLM and suggests positive implications exist. This is likely due to individual differences among employees and supervisors, as not all subordinates working for a BLM supervisor exhibiting a high BLM demonstrate the same unethical behaviours (Farasat et al., 2020). Research has found that a focus on bottom-line attainment can in fact lead to an enhanced organisational performance and employee productivity (Friedman, 2007), increased task performance from employees (Babalola et al., 2020), elevated shareholder value (Farasat et al., 2020), and essentially, overall organisational success - the incentivising goal of a BLM (Davidsson et al., 2009). Quade et al. (2019) &amp; Lim et al.'s (2021) research reveals a summary of positive implications derived from a BLM when the supervisor and employee share similar goals, including clarity and focus on process and outcomes, and enhanced task efficiency. However, they emphasise that these are short-term successes, and are often overshadowed by long-term negative consequences.

{{tip|Food for thought... 
*Are the positive outcomes related with a BLM worth the costs of the negative implications?
*Is it truly possible for leaders to foster a positive workplace environment for employees when demonstrating a high BLM themselves?
*Are particular industries or fields at a higher risk of negative BLM consequences compared to others?
}}

== Motivational dynamics of a bottom-line mentality ==
Several motivational-related theories have been considered when exploring individuals’ motives behind engaging in a BLM. It is clear that there are several influencing factors that can contribute to a BLM (e.g. Quade et al., 2019; Lin et al., 2022). Likewise, extant research suggests the interpersonal dynamic between supervisors and employees can heavily contribute to the expression and motivation of a BLM.

=== Social information processing theory ===
Social information processing theory (SIP) (Salancik &amp; Pfeffer, 1978) is often discussed in the context of a workplace, exploring what motivates individuals to make decisions and form attitudes in a social context. The theory suggests that individuals will shape their attitudes and behaviours based on the social information provided to them in their organisation's environment. Lin et al. (2021) use SIP as a framework in their research to explore how BLM impacts a team’s motivation. In the case of a high BLM supervisor, employees are more likely to internalise the idea that their primary goal is to avoid failure and achieve the bottom-line at all costs based on social cues emphasising profit, cognitive processing of BLM norms, and behavioural adaption. As such, teams are at risk of developing a team performance avoidance goal orientation, a shared motivational state characterised by an obsession of avoiding mistakes and achieving success, which comes with its own risks. Thus, SIP can help explain how individuals can be influenced by their social environment, which is a key enforcer and perpetuator if the BLM mindset within teams or entire organisations.

=== Social exchange theory and reciprocity ===
Social exchange theory (Blau, 1964) explores the interaction between social relationships and structures, viewing interpersonal relations in terms of costs and benefits exchanged between parties. The theory helps to explain behaviours of individuals based on the concept of reciprocity - if one party provides something valuable, the other is expected to reciprocate. This can often result in transactional, self-interested exchanges which weaken long-term relationships, trust, and positive organisational culture. As such, a high BLM supervisor is a poor exchange partner, since they prioritise bottom-line over employee wellbeing, essentially resulting in low LMX. Quade et al. (2019) suggests this expresses itself in the form of negative reciprocity, where employees withhold effort and reduce performance. The absence of positive LMX diminishes employee’s intrinsic motivation, leading to lower task performance. While BLM focuses on maximising financial gain, individuals may overlook the long-term value of maintaining healthy, equitable social exchanges, ultimately harming the wellbeing of both individuals and organisations.

[[File:Goal orientation theory.png|thumb|282x282px|Figure 4. 2x2 achievement goal framework]]

=== Goal orientation theory and expectancy theory ===
Lin et al. (2021) attribute [[w:Goal_orientation|goal orientation theory]] (VandeWalle, 1997) to explain the shift from intrinsic to extrinsic motivation under a BLM supervisor. The theory recognises the difference between performance-approach goals (seeking to demonstrate competence) and performance-avoidance goals (seeking to avoid failure) (see fig. 4), which can be expressed on both an individual and group level. A supervisor high in BLM can cause their subordinates to adopt a performance avoidance goal orientation within their groups. To avoid failure, teams experience fear-based motivation, inhibiting optimal employee wellbeing and team performance in order to simply achieve the bottom-line results. This theory ties in cohesively with expectancy theory (Vroom, 1964) which attempts to explain how fear-based motivation arises between individuals, suggesting people are motivated to act based on the expectation their actions will result in desired outcomes. As such, employees are at risk of engaging in workplace behaviours aligned with avoiding punishment to satisfy a high BLM supervisor. This leads to individual’s prioritising short-term, tangible outcomes instead of long-term ethical ones, highlighting the adopted transactional mindset that emphasises completing minimum requirements (Quade et al., 2019).

;Quiz

&lt;quiz display=&quot;simple&quot;&gt;
{BLM is only applicable to the workplace}
- True
+ False

{BLM always results in engaging unethically or unfavourably}
- True
+ False
&lt;/quiz&gt;

== The Enron Scandal ==
{{expand}}

=== Background ===
[[File:Logo of Enron Corporation (1997).svg|thumb|Figure 5. Enron Corporation]]
*
The [[w:Enron scandal|Enron scandal]] is a well-known act of company misconduct which perfectly engaged in professionally unethical acts aligning with a BLM. An accounting scandal involving [[w:Enron_Corporation|Enron Corporation]] (see fig. 5), an energy company based in Houston, Texas, which saw key executives identifying accounting loopholes, misusing market-to-market accounting, special purpose entities, and poor financial reporting, ultimately leading to the company hiding billions of dollars in debt from failed projects and deals. The fraudulent activity was revealed after Enron filed for bankruptcy at the end of 2001, where investigations exposed Enron for using off-balance-sheet special purpose entities in order to simultaneously hide debts and inflate profits. Auditors from Arthur Andersen, another accounting firm, were also implicated for shredding documents. This essentially led to one of the largest corporate fraud cases in history.

=== Bottom-line mentality at Enron Corporation ===
The Enron corporation set ambitious financial goals, leading to aggressive goal setting, intense pressure and expectations for employees, a picture-perfect environment for a workplace characterised by high BLM. As such, this led to a culture of fear, motivation and competition among employees, and a lack of good leadership. Employees developed a mindset of “doing whatever it takes” (Gibney, 2005) to meet the high sales goals and engaging in unethical acts (e.g., criminal accounting practices) in order to receive large bonuses (Ackman, 2002). Achieving bonuses meant achieving bottom-line attainment, essentially shifting the corporate’s culture to one heavily defined by a BLM.

=== Consequences and reflection ===
Enron's fraudulent engagement was eventually exposed which consequently saw one of the biggest corporate bankruptcies in history (see fig. 6). It provides a perfect example of how a BLM can have extreme consequences for a company and its stakeholders. The implications were disastrous - over $60 billion in market value was erased after the company filed for bankruptcy, thousands of people lose{{g}} jobs, pensions, and investments, top executives were convicted of fraud, and new legislation (The Sarbanes-Oxley Act, 2002) was induced to increase financial transparency and corporate accountability. These outcomes highlight the importance of balancing financial goals with ethical consideration, transparency, and long-term perspective. Regardless of the dire outcomes, companies worldwide have fallen victim to a BLM, leading to large-scale scandals. Some of these include WorldCom who engaged in accounting fraud in order to inflate earnings, eventually leading to a massive collapse, and Theranos, who misled investors about its technology, resulting in a prioritisation of growth over truth and transparency. Each case, including the Enron scandal, perfectly illustrates how a BLM can lead to failure on an extreme scale.

==Conclusion==
A BLM, while not exclusive to, is most often showcased in an organisational setting. It is a mindset which is characterised by “one dimensional thinking” that focuses entirely on achieving the “bottom line” - goals, standards, or outcomes that an individual or organisation defines as success (Greenbaum et al., 2023). A BLM is often expressed by employees who have a high BLM supervisor, where their LMX relationship results in the subordinate engaging in attitudes and behaviours that align with the leader. 

Although positive implications exist, such as enhanced organisational performance (Friedman, 2007) and enhanced employee performance (Babalola et al., 2020), these likely do not outweigh the potential negative consequences. Individuals risk engaging in unethical behaviours in the workplace (Mesdaghinia et al., 2019), increased coworker undermining (Greenbaum et al., 2012), and abusive supervisions (Mawrtiz et al., 2017).

Theories such as social information processing (Salancik &amp; Pfeffer, 1978) and social exchange theory (Blau, 1964) help explain how interpersonal relationships in the workplace motivate individuals to engage in particular behaviours based on the connections they have with their coworkers and supervisors. [[w:Goal_orientation|Goal orientation theory]] (VandeWalle, 1997) and expectancy theory (Vroom, 1964) identify how individuals’ motivation shifts from intrinsic to extrinsic, and how these behaviours express themselves when people adopt fear-based motivation and work to achieve the bottom-line attainment. 

Essentially, a BLM motivates individuals to behave in particular ways which may be beneficial short-term, but often overlook longevity and ethical considerations. Examples such as the Enron scandal illustrate this perfectly, also revealing the detrimental consequence that may arise. As such, individuals should be mindful when adopting a BLM.
{{RoundBoxTop|theme=10}}

'''Key Takeaways'''

* The relationship between leader and subordinate helps shape the attitudes, beliefs, and behaviours within the workplace
* Adopting a BLM is often beneficial in the short-term, but nearly always is detrimental to the longevity of individuals and the organisation
* A BLM is nearly always expressed within the workplace, but can be applicable to other areas of life too
{{RoundBoxBottom}}

==See also==
* [[Motivation and emotion/Book/2023/Effective leadership|Effective leadership]] (Book chapter, 2023)
* [[w:Enron scandal|Enron scandal]] (Wikipedia)
* [[w:Enron corporation|Enron corporation]] (Wikipedia)
* [[w:Goal orientation|Goal orientation theory]] (Wikipedia)
* [[w:leader-member exchange theory|Leader-member exchange]] (Wikipedia)
* [[Motivation and emotion/Book/2023/Effective leadership|Leadership and BLM]] (Book chapter, 2023)

==References==
{{Hanging indent|1=

Ackman D (2002) Pay madness at Enron. Forbes.com, 22 March (accessed 22 October 2020).

Babalola, M. T., Mawritz, M. B., Greenbaum, R. L., Ren, S., &amp; Garba, O. A. (2020). Whatever It Takes: How and When Supervisor Bottom-Line Mentality Motivates Employee Contributions in the Workplace. Journal of Management, 47(5), 1134-1154. https://doi.org/10.1177/0149206320902521

Bonner, J. M., Greenbaum, R. L., &amp; Quade, M. J. (2017). Employee unethical behavior to shame as an indicator of self-image threat and exemplification as a form of self-image protection: The exacerbating role of supervisor bottom-line mentality. Journal of Applied Psychology, 102(8), 1203–1221. https://doi.org/10.1037/apl0000222

Carroll, A. B. (1991). The pyramid of corporate social responsibility: Toward the moral management of organizational stakeholders. Business horizons, 34(4), 39-48. https://doi.org/10.1016/0007-6813(91)90005-G

Dionne, S. D., Sayama, H., Hao, C., &amp; Bush, B. J. (2010). The role of leadership in shared mental model convergence and team performance improvement: An agent-based computational model. The Leadership Quarterly, 21(6), 1035-1049. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.leaqua.2010.10.007

Duffy, M. K., Gangster, D. C., Pagon, M. (2002). Social Undermining in the Workplace. The Academy of Management Journal, 45(2), 331-351. https://doi.org.10.2307/3069350

Eissa, G., Wyland, R., &amp; Gupta, R. (2018). Supervisor to coworker social undermining: The moderating roles of bottom-line mentality and self-efficacy. Journal of Management and Organization, 26(5), 756-773. https://doi.org/10.1017/jmo.2018.5

Farasat, M., &amp; Azam, A. (2020). Supervisor bottom-line mentality and subordinates’ unethical pro-organizational behavior. Personnel Review, 51(1), 353-376. https://doi.org/10.1108/PR-03-2020-0129

Ge, Y. 2018. Supervisor bottom-line mentality, instrumentalism, ethical climate and employee’s unethical behaviour: The moderate effect of moral identity. In J. Liu &amp; K. L. Teves (Eds.), Proceedings of the 2018 2nd International Conference on Education, Economics and Management Research, Singapore

Gibney A (Director) (2005) Enron: The Smartest Guys in the Room [Film]. 2929 Entertainment, HDNet Films, Jigsaw Productions.

Greenbaum, R. L., Mawritz, M. B., &amp; Eissa, G. (2012). Bottom-Line Mentality as an Antecedent of Social Undermining and the Moderating Roles of Core Self-Evaluations and Conscientiousness. Journal of Applied Psychology, 97(2), 343-359. https://doi.org/10.1037/a0025217

Greenbaum, R. L., Mawritz, M. B., &amp; Zaman, N. N. (2023). The Construct of Bottom-Line Mentality: Where We’ve Been and Where We’re Going. Journal of Management, 49(6), 2109-2147. https://doi.org/10.1177/01492063231153135

Kamran, K., Azam, A., &amp; Atif, M. M. (2022). Supervisor Bottom-Line Mentality, Performance Pressure, and Workplace Cheating: Moderating Role of Negative Reciprocity. Organizational Psychology, 13(1), X-X. https://doi.org/10.3389/fpsyg.2022.801283

Lin, Y., Yang, M., Quade, M. J., Chen, W. (2022) Is the bottom line reached? An exploration of supervisor bottom-line mentality, team performance avoidance goal orientation and team performance. Human relations, 75(2), 349-372. https://doi.org/10.1177/00187267211002917

Locke, E., &amp; Latham, G. (1990). A theory of goal setting and task performance. Prentice-Hall, Englewood Cliffs, NJ

Mawritz M, Greenbaum R, Butts M and Graham K (2017) I just can’t control myself: A self regulation perspective on the abuse of deviant employees. Academy of Management Journal 60(4): 1482–1503. https://doi.org/10.5465/amj.2014.0409

McClelland, D. C., Atkinson, J. W., Clark, R. A., &amp; Lowell, E. L. (1953). Effects on fantasy of arousing achievement motivation. In D.C. McClelland, J.W. Atkinson, R. A. Clark, &amp; E. L. Lowell, The achievement motive (pp. 139-160). Appleton-Century-Crofts. https&quot;//doi.org/10.1037/11144-005

Mesdaghinia, S., Rawat, A., &amp; Nadavulakere, S. (2019). Why moral followers quit: Examining the role of leader bottom-line mentality and unethical pro-leader behavior. Journal of Business Ethics, 159(3), 491-505. https://doi.org/10.1007/s10551-018-3812-7
Mitchell, M. S., Baer, M. D., Ambrose, M. L., Folger, R., &amp; Palmer, N. F. (2018). Cheating under pressure: A self-protection model of workplace cheating behavior. Journal of Applied Psychology, 103(1), 54–73. https://doi.org/10.1037/apl0000254

Park, T., Park, S., &amp; Barry, B. (2022). Incentive Effects on Ethics. Academy of Management, 16(1), 297-333. https://doi.org/10.5465/annals.2020.0251

Quade, M. J., McLarty, B. D., &amp; Bonner, J. M. (2019). The influence of supervisor bottom-line mentality on leader-member exchange and subsequent employee performance. Human relations, 73(8), 1157-1181. https://doi.org/10.1177/0018726719858394

Vroom, V. H. (1960). Some Personality Determinants of the Effects of Participation. Routledge, London. https://doi.org/10.4324/9780429260995

Wolfe, D. M. 1988. Is there integrity in the bottom line: Managing obstacles to executive integrity. In S. Srivastva (Ed.) Executive integrity: The search for high human values in organizational life: 140‐171. Hoboken, NJ: Jossey-Bass
}}

==External links==
* [https://www.investopedia.com/updates/enron-scandal-summary/ Enron scandal]  (investopedia.com
* [https://www.journalofaccountancy.com/issues/2002/apr/theriseandfallofenron.html The rise and fall of Enron] (journalofsccountancy.com)

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      <text bytes="15163" sha1="3rzmkwhedkpb51yxu4dzlsdsivn5xql" xml:space="preserve">== Teenage phone use ==

Escape motivation and phone use amongst teenagers might be useful [[User:U3235875|U3235875]] ([[User talk:U3235875|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/U3235875|contribs]]) 04:56, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

== Heading casing ==
{| style=&quot;float: center; background:transparent;color:inherit;&quot;
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| [[File:Crystal Clear app ktip.svg|48px|left]]
| {{#if:|Hi [[User:{{{1}}}|{{{1}}}]].|}} FYI, the recommended [[Wikiversity]] heading style uses [[w:Letter case#Sentence_case|sentence casing]]. For example:&lt;br&gt;
&lt;big&gt;&lt;big&gt;Self-determination theory&lt;/big&gt;&lt;/big&gt;
rather than
&lt;big&gt;&lt;big&gt;Self-Determination Theory&lt;/big&gt;&lt;/big&gt;

Here's an example chapter with correct heading casing: [[Motivation and emotion/Book/2019/Growth mindset development|Growth mindset development]]

-- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 10:13, 22 August 2025 (UTC)
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&lt;!-- Overall --&gt;
# Promising development of key points
# The main area to improve is to align the content more strongly with the question (which is about motivations for mobile phone use, which includes non-problematic and problematic use) rather than concentrating on problematic use. Note that there is already a chapter about [[Motivation and emotion/Book/2017/Mobile phone addiction|mobile phone addiction]]. So, given an overview and link to this chapter, but don't let this focus take over the current chapter which is broader.
&lt;!-- Scope --&gt;
# It is unlikely that all planned aspects can be reasonably covered within the final word count, so be selective and concentrate on the important aspects in order to address the question in the sub-title
&lt;!-- Writing style --&gt;
# The writing style is clear and easy to follow
&lt;!-- Theory and research --&gt;
# Strive for an integrated balance of the best psychological theory and research about this topic, with practical examples
&lt;!-- Citations --&gt;
# Basic use of citations
# Use [https://apastyle.apa.org/style-grammar-guidelines/citations/basic-principles APA style 7th edition for citations] with three or more authors (i.e., FirstAuthor et al., year)
&lt;!-- Other --&gt;
# ''Avoid providing too much background information''. Aim to briefly summarise general concepts and provide internal links to relevant book chapters and/or Wikipedia pages for further information. Focus most of the chapter on ''directly answering the core question(s)'' posed by the chapter sub-title.
# Use correct capitalisation ([https://apastyle.apa.org/style-grammar-guidelines/capitalization APA style is a &quot;down&quot; style]) – [https://polishedpaper.com/blog/capitalization-apa-style more info]
&lt;!-- GenAI ---&gt;
# Do these key points include [[Motivation and emotion/Assessment/Using generative AI|genAI content]]? If so, this needs to be acknowledged in the edit summaries, otherwise it violates academic integrity.
&lt;!-- Conclusion --&gt;
# Conclusion is underway
# Conclusion focuses on PSU but the topic is SU
# What might the take-home, practical messages be? (What are the answer(s) to the question(s) in the sub-title and/or focus questions?)
|5=
&lt;!-- Figure --&gt;
# Excellent - Relevant figure(s) presented, captioned, and cited
&lt;!-- Caption --&gt;
# Figure caption(s) provide(s) a clear, appropriately detailed description that is meaningfully connected with the main text
&lt;!-- Cite --&gt;
# Figure(s) are cited at least once in the main text
|6=
&lt;!-- Learning feature --&gt;
&lt;!-- Interwiki links ---&gt;
# Excellent in-text [[m:Help:Interwiki linking|interwiki links]] for first mention of key terms to [[w:|Wikipedia]] and/or [[Motivation and emotion/Book|book chapters]]
&lt;!-- Scenarios/examples/case studies --&gt;
# Consider use of more scenarios/examples/case studies 
&lt;!-- Quiz --&gt;
# Promising use of quiz question(s)
# Place quiz each question in the most relevant section
# Focus the quiz question(s) on the take-home messages
&lt;!-- Tables --&gt;
# Promising use of table(s)
# Use APA style for table captions
# Cite each table at least once in the text
# Include citations for information presented in the table
|7=
&lt;!-- References --&gt;
&lt;!-- Overall --&gt;
# Very good
&lt;!-- Systematic reviews --&gt;
# Well done on identifying relevant systematic reviews and/or meta-analyses
# Check out recent PhD at UC by Beau Sullivan on problematic smartphone motives
&lt;!-- APA style --&gt;
# Check and correct [https://apastyle.apa.org/instructional-aids/reference-guide.pdf APA referencing style]:
## capitalisation
## [[Help:Wikitext quick reference|italicisation]])
|8=
&lt;!-- Resources --&gt;
&lt;!-- See also --&gt;
## No new links were added
### Also link to related [[Motivation and emotion/Book|motivation and emotion book chapters]]
### Also link to relevant [[w:|Wikipedia]] pages
&lt;!-- External links --&gt;
## One of two required external links provided
## Use [[w:Letter case#Sentence casing|sentence casing]]
|9=
&lt;!-- User page --&gt;
# Excellent - Used effectively
&lt;!-- Description about self --&gt;
# Excellent description about self provided
&lt;!-- Links to profile(s) --&gt;
# Link(s) provided to professional profile(s)
&lt;!-- Link to book chapter --&gt;
# A link to the book chapter is provided
|10=
&lt;!-- Social contribution --&gt;
# Excellent – at least three different types of contributions with direct link(s) to evidence
}}
-- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 10:13, 22 August 2025 (UTC)

== Image suggestion ==

This image may be useful: [[File:Burn out icon 2686199.svg|150px]] -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 10:54, 17 September 2025 (UTC)

&lt;!-- Official book chapter feedback --&gt;
{{MEBF/2025
|1=
&lt;!-- Overall comments... --&gt;
# This is an excellent chapter that successfully uses psychological theory and research to address a practical, real-world phenomenon or problem
&lt;!-- Overall - GenAI --&gt;
#* [[Motivation and emotion/Assessment/Using generative AI|genAI use]] is appropriately acknowledged
&lt;!-- Overall – Citations --&gt;
# Very good use of academic, peer-reviewed citations to support claims
# Only cite sources that you consult
# All citations need to be in the References
&lt;!-- Overall – Copyedits --&gt;
# For additional feedback, see the following comments and [https://en.wikiversity.org/w/index.php?title=Motivation_and_emotion%2FBook%2F2025%2FMobile_phone_use_motivation&amp;diff=2761937&amp;oldid=2755060 these copyedits]
|2=
&lt;!-- Overview – Comments... --&gt;
# Well developed
&lt;!-- Overview – Scenario --&gt;
&lt;!-- Overview – Scenario - Description --&gt;
# Engaging scenario or case study
&lt;!-- Overview – Scenario - Feature --&gt;
# Figure 1 is relevant to the scenario
&lt;!-- Overview – Scenario - Feature --&gt;
# Scenario uses an appropriate feature box
&lt;!-- Overview – Explains problem --&gt;
# Clearly explains the psychological problem or phenomenon
&lt;!-- Overview – Focus questions --&gt;
# The focus questions are excellent (clear and relevant)
|3=
&lt;!-- Theory comments... --&gt;
&lt;!-- Theory – Breadth --&gt;
# Excellent—key theories are very well explained and applied
&lt;!-- Theory – Builds on --&gt;
# Builds exceptionally well on [[w:|Wikipedia]] articles but not related [[Motivation and emotion/Book|chapters]] by embedding interwiki links for key terms
&lt;!-- Theory – Depth --&gt;
# Insightful depth is provided about key theory(ies)
&lt;!-- Theory – Tables/Figures/Lists --&gt;
# Excellent use of tables, figures, and/or lists to clearly convey key theoretical information
&lt;!-- Theory – Citations --&gt;
# Key citations are well used, but if if you didn't consult an original source, don't cite it
&lt;!-- Theory – Examples --&gt;
# Excellent use of examples to illustrate theoretical concepts
|4=
&lt;!-- Research comments... --&gt;
&lt;!-- Research – Key findings --&gt;
# Excellent review of relevant research
# Greater emphasis on international systematic reviews and/or meta-analyses would be ideal
# More detail about key studies would be ideal
# Consult all sources and cite them in the References
&lt;!-- Research – Critical thinking --&gt;
# Basic [[w:Critical thinking|critical thinking]] about relevant research is evident
# [[w:Critical thinking|Critical thinking]] about research could be further evidenced by:
## describing the methodology (e.g., sample, measures) in important studies
## considering the strength of relationships
## acknowledging limitations
## pointing out critiques/counterarguments
## suggesting ''specific'' directions for future research
|5=
&lt;!-- Integration comments... --&gt;
# Excellent integration between the most relevant theory(ies) and the best research
# Insufficient integration with related [[Motivation and emotion/Book|chapters]]
|6=
&lt;!-- Conclusion comments... --&gt;
# Very good summary and conclusion
# Reads like generic [[Motivation and emotion/Assessment/Using generative AI|genAI output]]; write more compellingly in your own words
# Remind the reader about the importance of the problem or phenomenon of interest
&lt;!-- Conclusion – Key points --&gt;
# Key points are well summarised
&lt;!-- Conclusion – Focus questions --&gt;
# The take-away messages for each focus question could be spelt out more clearly
&lt;!-- Conclusion – Take-home messages --&gt;
# Add practical, take-home message(s)
&lt;!-- Conclusion – Word count --&gt;
# Not counted for marking purposes due to being over the maximum word count
|7=
&lt;!-- Written expression – Style comments... --&gt;
&lt;!-- Written expression – Written expression --&gt;
# Written expression
## The quality of written expression is excellent
## The target audience is international, not domestic. [http://www.worldometers.info/world-population/australia-population/ Only 0.3% of the world human population lives in Australia].
&lt;!-- Written expression – Paragraphs --&gt;
## Avoid one sentence paragraphs. Communicate one idea per paragraph using three to five sentences.
&lt;!-- Written expression – Layout --&gt;
# Layout
## The chapter structure is underdeveloped; consider expanding by using subheadings
&lt;!-- Written expression – Grammar --&gt;
# Grammar and spelling are excellent
&lt;!-- Written expression – Abbreviations --&gt;
## Abbreviations
### Once an abbreviation has been established (e.g., PTSD), use it consistently afterwards
&lt;!-- Written expression – Figures --&gt;
## Figures
### Very well well captioned
&lt;!-- Written expression – Figures - Citations --&gt;
### Refer to each Figure at least once within the main text (e.g., &quot;(see Figure 1)&quot;)
&lt;!-- Written expression – Tables --&gt;
## Tables
### Very well/Well/Reasonably well captioned
### Use APA style for captions ([[Motivation and emotion/Assessment/Chapter/Tables|see example]])
### Add an APA style caption to each table
&lt;!-- Written expression – Citations --&gt;
# Some citations are not in the References
&lt;!-- Written expression – References --&gt;
## References use excellent APA style:
|8=
&lt;!-- Learning features comments... --&gt;
# Excellent use of learning features
&lt;!-- Learning features – Wikipedia embedded links --&gt;
# Excellent use of embedded in-text [[m:Help:Interwiki linking|interwiki links]] to Wikipedia articles
&lt;!-- Learning features – Wikiversity embedded links --&gt;
# Add embedded in-text links to related [[Motivation and emotion/Book|book chapters]]. Embedding in-text links to related book chapters helps to integrate this chapter into the broader book project.
&lt;!-- Learning features – Figures, tables, feature boxes, scenarios --&gt;
# Excellent use of figure(s)
# No use of table(s)
# Excellent use of feature box(es)
# Excellent use of scenarios, case studies, or examples
&lt;!-- Learning features – Quizzes --&gt;
# Excellent use of reflection question(s)
&lt;!-- Learning features – See also --&gt;
# Insufficient use of the &quot;See also&quot; section
## Also include links to related Wikipedia articles
&lt;!-- Learning features – External links --&gt;
# Insufficient use of the &quot;External links&quot; section
## Target an international audience
## Add more links
## Link to the top 3-6 external resources about this topic
|9=
&lt;!-- Social contribution comments... --&gt;
# ~12 logged, useful, mostly moderate contributions with direct links to evidence
# Thanks for the Wiki Commons uploads
}}
-- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 20:31, 19 October 2025 (UTC)

== What is this nonsense  ==

[[:File:Young boy watching a video on his phone.png]] is blatantly misgenerated— the phone is facing ''away'' from the child. If you are going to use AI slop to illustrate extremely mundane subjects at least use ''decent'' AI slop [[User:Dronebogus|Dronebogus]] ([[User talk:Dronebogus|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dronebogus|contribs]]) 12:03, 9 May 2026 (UTC)</text>
      <sha1>3rzmkwhedkpb51yxu4dzlsdsivn5xql</sha1>
    </revision>
  </page>
  <page>
    <title>Wikiversity:Requests for Deletion/Archives/23</title>
    <ns>4</ns>
    <id>325787</id>
    <revision>
      <id>2808155</id>
      <parentid>2800806</parentid>
      <timestamp>2026-05-10T09:01:58Z</timestamp>
      <contributor>
        <username>Juandev</username>
        <id>2651</id>
      </contributor>
      <comment>- 5 moving to /Archives/22 to be in chronological order</comment>
      <origin>2808155</origin>
      <model>wikitext</model>
      <format>text/x-wiki</format>
      <text bytes="33580" sha1="2rw9xx43a0dm47wotuk2z7hzify5axu" xml:space="preserve">{{archive|Wikiversity:Requests for Deletion}}
== [[:Category:LAMAI Theological Academy]] and all related content ==
{{archive top|'''Deleted''' - Obviously useless content that fails to meet Wikiversity's scope. I've also filed a [[meta:Steward_requests/Checkuser#Bmlamai@en.wikiversity|Checkuser]] request on Meta for all the new accounts voting in favor of this page. 2 accounts have been indef'd on the grounds of spam/promotional use only due to obvious association with the pages. EDIT: And of course, a massive thank you to [[User:AKA MBG|AKA MBG]] for raising this issue and Dave for bringing it to WV:RFD. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 12:46, 4 January 2026 (UTC)}}
See [[User_talk:Dave_Braunschweig#Theological_Academy]] for context. Based on a Google search, LAMAI appears to stand for the &quot;League of Arhats of the International Academy of Truth&quot;. Google AI indicates this &quot;is not a widely recognized organization, and there is no publicly available, verifiable information about its existence or activities through general search, legal records, or news reports.&quot; The only associated link is a telegram shortcut with a single member. Based on this background information, I agree with [[User:AKA MBG]] that it is very likely any user account associated with LAMAI is a single user and all of the related content was created in violation of a block from 2022.

While I am inclined to delete the content outright and block the associated user accounts, I am no longer active and want to defer to the community for confirmation.

[[User:Dave Braunschweig|Dave Braunschweig]] ([[User talk:Dave Braunschweig|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dave Braunschweig|contribs]]) 20:57, 11 December 2025 (UTC)
: '''Move to user space''' or, as a second best option, '''delete''' per Dave above. --[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] ([[User talk:Dan Polansky|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dan Polansky|contribs]]) 09:16, 12 December 2025 (UTC)
::; “Marginality” of the LAMAI Theological Academy — on the merits
::# Syncretic personal doctrine
::#* Buddhism + Hinduism + Christianity + Communism + political figures (“Two prophets — Lenin and Stalin.” (p. 132; page numbers refer to the Russian-language version of the textbook, which I reviewed. The textbook is available on the traditio.wiki website in both Russian and English and is the source on which the LAMAI Theological Academy course on Wikiversity is based)).
::#* This is not a course about religions, but a course of a single authorial system.
::# Lack of external verification
::#* No academic sources.
::#* No recognition in religious studies.
::#* No neutral third-party overview.
::# Normativity. The text constantly states:
::#* “in fact”
::#* “this is an error”
::#* religions lied (quotation: “As for cause and effect, the Bible, of course, lied.” p. 24)
::This is not research, but preaching.
::; Evaluation of the textbook “LAMAI. A Textbook of Spiritual Practice”
::Below is an evaluation of the text on which the course is based.
::1) '''Plagiarism / borrowings'''. There is no formal plagiarism. The text is an authorial synthesis, but:
::* it actively redefines:
::** Buddhist terms (nirvana, karma, bodhisattva);
::** Christian concepts (God, the devil, the Holy Spirit);
::* this is done without references and in contradiction to canonical interpretations.
::This is not plagiarism, but incorrect authorial eclecticism.
::2) '''Potential harm to individuals''' is present in the textbook, and it is direct. A critically dangerous fragment:
:: “The state of samadhi is achieved through interval dry fasting… One must fast for ten days… Interval dry fasting eliminates almost any disease.” (quotations from different pages of the book; this text is also present in the annotation to the book on p. 1).
::This is:
::* a medically false statement;
::* a potentially dangerous recommendation;
::* capable of leading to dehydration, kidney failure, and death.
::Other dangerous theses:
::* “Almost all diseases are the result of karma” (p. 33);
:::* → risk of refusing medical care.
::* “Cancer is the result of the karma of greed” (p. 33);
:::* → psychological traumatization of patients.
::All of this can be described as harmful health misinformation.
::3) Contradictions with modern science and evidence-based medicine
::There are many contradictions, and they are systemic:
::* Denial of the biological nature of diseases.
::* The assertion that plants “do not have a psyche” (pp. 32–33), and that diseases directly depend on moral qualities.
::* A mystical cosmology presented as ontological reality.
::This is acceptable as an object of study, but unacceptable as an educational guide.
::; My personal opinion:
::# Does not meet Wikiversity standards as an educational course
::# Contains potentially dangerous health-related assertions
::# May exist only:
::#* in user space;
::#* or as an object of critical analysis (“analysis of the LAMAI doctrine”). -- [[User:AKA MBG|Andrew Krizhanovsky]] ([[User talk:AKA MBG|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/AKA MBG|contribs]]) 16:20, 13 December 2025 (UTC)

I am against the deletion of the &quot;LAMAI Academy&quot;. It is a very good and useful educational project. [[User:Lamaibum|Lamaibum]] ([[User talk:Lamaibum|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Lamaibum|contribs]]) 05:23, 20 December 2025 (UTC)

I am against the deletion of the &quot;LAMAI Academy&quot;, because this is quite an
innovative project.

I am against deletion of the &quot;LAMAI Academy&quot;. [[User:Alexa89898|Alexa89898]] ([[User talk:Alexa89898|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Alexa89898|contribs]]) 15:54, 21 December 2025 (UTC)

I am against deletion. [[User:AndyLane13|AndyLane13]] ([[User talk:AndyLane13|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/AndyLane13|contribs]]) 16:37, 22 December 2025 (UTC)

I, too, am against deletion. Whether the aforementioned critiques have merit or not, it is clear to me that this some kind of new theological/metaphysical framework. We wouldn't delete, say, Ayurveda or TCM courses just because they don't strictly adhere to the scientific method. They still represent a field of human knowledge/endeavour.
I think the same applies here. Thus I am against the deletion. [[User:GiacintoDelArco|GiacintoDelArco]] ([[User talk:GiacintoDelArco|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/GiacintoDelArco|contribs]]) 11:35, 26 December 2025 (UTC)

I agree with what has been said here and I am against deletion. There is no need to delete it in my opinion. Leave it up. Otherwise, if one would really try to be consistent, one would have to delete a bazillion of other stuff as well. [[User:Bmlamai|Bmlamai]] ([[User talk:Bmlamai|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Bmlamai|contribs]]) 11:53, 26 December 2025 (UTC)

: I am afraid, that [[User:Lamaibum]], [[User:Bmlamai]], [[User:Alexa89898]], [[User:AndyLane13]] and [[User:GiacintoDelArco]] are the same person. -- [[User:AKA MBG|Andrew Krizhanovsky]] ([[User talk:AKA MBG|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/AKA MBG|contribs]]) 07:55, 3 January 2026 (UTC)
{{archive bottom}}

== [[Should Wiktionary avoid indefinite blocks of productive users?]] ==
{{archive top|'''deleted''' by Koavf. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 22:17, 19 January 2026 (UTC)}}
Page created by Dan Polanksy (now facing a 3-month block for disruptive editing), &quot;coincidentally&quot; created after his infinite block from the English Wiktionary. There are even more concerning pages listed [https://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/User_talk:Dan_Polansky/2020-2024#Debates_on_policies_of_other_Wikimedia_projects here] that show how much of a joke the &quot;Wikidebate&quot; realm of Wikiversity has turned into. Hell, this one argument which Dan made up is just absurd: &quot;An indefinite block is un-Christian, failing to implement Christian forgiveness.&quot;. How is this educational whatsoever? Who would benefit from such useless content?

I'm inclined to delete this page as an attack page and out of scope anyhow, but I'd thought I'd leave this here for a few days for anyone else to give an opinion for. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 17:38, 30 December 2025 (UTC)

:This is absurd again. I'm just deleting this. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 22:12, 19 January 2026 (UTC)
{{archive bottom}}

== [[Portal:Fencing]] ==
{{archive top|Closing, discussion had already reached a conclusion and an action was carried out [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 12:30, 11 March 2026 (UTC)}}
Is this really a useful portal, there doesn't seem to be any relevant links to other pages? [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 11:13, 29 January 2026 (UTC)

:I'd invite {{ping|VidanaliK}} to this discussion, and to be honest I don't think this needed to come to RFD. I think the page should be moved into the mainspace &quot;Fencing&quot; page and it is not fit for Portal namespace (per [[Wikiversity:Portal]]). I'd like VidanaliK to understand this or provide their input before I move the page. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 15:22, 29 January 2026 (UTC)
::I had no clue there was a mainspace fencing page: I had looked for that all over. I was going to add more pages that this could link to but exceeded my new user limit (see the three pages I've drafted in my sandbox). [[User:VidanaliK|VidanaliK]] ([[User talk:VidanaliK|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/VidanaliK|contribs]]) 16:22, 29 January 2026 (UTC)
:::OK, now there is a linked page to Rapier fencing, and also, I don't see any mainspace &quot;Fencing&quot;; I could move it to that if it is inappropriate for Portal namespace. [[User:VidanaliK|VidanaliK]] ([[User talk:VidanaliK|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/VidanaliK|contribs]]) 16:46, 29 January 2026 (UTC)
::::Hey {{ping|VidanaliK}} sorry that this is so messy. I've moved all of your recently created pages under the main Fencing learning project. You have some duplicates: [[Fencing/Thibault rapier]] &amp; [[Fencing/Rapier/Thibault]]. Please indicate which page you'd like to remove. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 16:52, 29 January 2026 (UTC)
:::::I prefer [[Fencing/Rapier/Thibault]] and [[Fencing/Rapier/Capo Ferro]]. It's easier organisation. [[User:VidanaliK|VidanaliK]] ([[User talk:VidanaliK|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/VidanaliK|contribs]]) 16:53, 29 January 2026 (UTC)
:::::Also, I'd prefer that [[Fencing/Rapier fencing]] be moved to [[Fencing/Rapier]] since it's already implied that it's rapier. [[User:VidanaliK|VidanaliK]] ([[User talk:VidanaliK|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/VidanaliK|contribs]]) 16:55, 29 January 2026 (UTC)
::::::Thanks for fixing everything! [[User:VidanaliK|VidanaliK]] ([[User talk:VidanaliK|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/VidanaliK|contribs]]) 18:58, 29 January 2026 (UTC)
:::{{ping|VidanaliK}} I'd suggest making a main page, [[Fencing]], and the pages you are currently making ([[Capo Ferro rapier]], ex.) can be moved under this learning project. Ex, [[Capo Ferro rapier]] --&gt; [[Fencing/Capo Ferro rapier]]. See [[Help:Subpages]]. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 16:47, 29 January 2026 (UTC)
::Noted, Thanks. I will remember this for the future. [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 06:35, 30 January 2026 (UTC)
{{archive bottom}}

== [[Creating connected learning environments]] ==
{{archive top|'''Deleted''' per consensus.--[[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 08:07, 16 March 2026 (UTC)}}
Underdeveloped project with 2 authors who've been inactive for 5+ years. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 01:48, 1 January 2026 (UTC)

:Delete [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 11:16, 22 January 2026 (UTC)

{{archive bottom}}

== [[Political theory]] ==
{{archive top|'''Deleted''' per consensus.--[[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 08:22, 16 March 2026 (UTC)}}
Underdeveloped since 2006. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 15:23, 21 January 2026 (UTC)

:'''Delete''' —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 19:21, 21 January 2026 (UTC)

{{archive bottom}}

== [[Quantum/Henry C. Kapteyn]] ==
{{archive top|'''Deleted''' as out of scope + user has been gblocked. NOTE: I also want to make it clear I never gave permission for Harold to remove the RFD tag, per my message to him on his talk page, and this seems to have came out through a misunderstanding. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 14:09, 10 March 2026 (UTC)}}
Per [[w:Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard#Evading block?]]. [[User:Pppery|Pppery]] ([[User talk:Pppery|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Pppery|contribs]]) 19:40, 10 February 2026 (UTC)

:@[[User:Harold Foppele|Harold Foppele]] Does this even belong to Wikiversity ([[Wikiversity:What is Wikiversity?]])? [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 10:50, 11 February 2026 (UTC)
::@[[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] Yes it does. [[wikipedia:Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard#Evading_block?|w:Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard#Evading block]] has nothing to do with Wikiversity. So elaborate your question. 11:07, 11 February 2026 (UTC) [[User:Harold Foppele|Harold Foppele]] ([[User talk:Harold Foppele|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Harold Foppele|contribs]]) 11:07, 11 February 2026 (UTC)
:::How is a biography got anything to do with wikiversity? [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 11:07, 11 February 2026 (UTC)
::::Since it will be part of an education section we are working on. Just curious, what brought you here? [[User:Harold Foppele|Harold Foppele]] ([[User talk:Harold Foppele|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Harold Foppele|contribs]]) 11:12, 11 February 2026 (UTC)
:::::Can you elaborate how it will be part of it? I saw this while working on archiving this RFD page. [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 11:13, 11 February 2026 (UTC)
:::I understand, it is brought to Rfd by someone outside Wikiversity. [[User:Harold Foppele|Harold Foppele]] ([[User talk:Harold Foppele|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Harold Foppele|contribs]]) 11:29, 11 February 2026 (UTC)
::::::@[[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] did you get the curator flag? [[User:Harold Foppele|Harold Foppele]] ([[User talk:Harold Foppele|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Harold Foppele|contribs]]) 11:20, 11 February 2026 (UTC)
:::::::No, how is that part of this discussion? [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 12:00, 11 February 2026 (UTC)
::::::::It is not, just a question. [[User:Harold Foppele|Harold Foppele]] ([[User talk:Harold Foppele|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Harold Foppele|contribs]]) 12:36, 11 February 2026 (UTC)
::It looks like a Wikipedia page to me. [[User:Sesquilinear|Sesquilinear]] ([[User talk:Sesquilinear|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Sesquilinear|contribs]]) 19:49, 11 February 2026 (UTC)
:::That's because it is one, by design. Foppele is currently subject to a block on En.Wikipedaia on “Creating new pages and uploading new files with an expiration time of indefinite” due to repeated issues with poor quality content. Foppele created the biography here, matching exactly the style and layout of a normal Wikipedia biography, and then created a cross-Wiki Wikilink to insert into a Wikipedia article, with the clear intent to game the system in order to evade the block. This is currently being discussed on the En.Wikipedia Administrators noticeboard [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard#Evading_block?], and may well result in further sanctions. I've no in-depth understanding of Wikiversity policy on such things, but I can't help wondering whether the project would consider such practices to be in accord with its stated purpose, which presumably isn't as a conduit for evading blocks from other projects. [[Special:Contributions/&amp;#126;2026-94094-0|&amp;#126;2026-94094-0]] ([[User talk:&amp;#126;2026-94094-0|talk]]) 22:39, 11 February 2026 (UTC)
::::Why this hidden account this happend before ?[[User:Harold Foppele|Harold Foppele]] ([[User talk:Harold Foppele|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Harold Foppele|contribs]]) 23:07, 11 February 2026 (UTC)
:::::I'm not attempting to hide anything - I'd just not realised that I wasn't signed in automatically, as normally happens between projects. Now how about giving an explanation for why you used the Wikiversity project to evade an En.Wikipedia block through deceptive linking? Do you consider that appropriate behaviour on either project? [[User:AndyTheGrump|AndyTheGrump]] ([[User talk:AndyTheGrump|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/AndyTheGrump|contribs]]) 23:33, 11 February 2026 (UTC)
::::::The discussion at WP is closed. [[User:Harold Foppele|Harold Foppele]] ([[User talk:Harold Foppele|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Harold Foppele|contribs]]) 08:43, 12 February 2026 (UTC)
:::::::Indeed. Closed after you have been blocked for a week for what was &quot;blatantly an attempt at gaming the pblock&quot;, with a comment by the blocking admin that they were &quot;tempted to simply indef&quot;. So, where's the explanation for your behaviour '''here'''? Do you consider it appropriate to use Wikiversity project facilities for block evasion in other WMF projects? [[User:AndyTheGrump|AndyTheGrump]] ([[User talk:AndyTheGrump|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/AndyTheGrump|contribs]]) 16:42, 12 February 2026 (UTC) 
::::::::The discussion is closed.[[User:Harold Foppele|Harold Foppele]] ([[User talk:Harold Foppele|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Harold Foppele|contribs]]) 16:53, 12 February 2026 (UTC)
:::::::::The discussion isn't actually closed, though you are blocked for a week for it. [[User:Sesquilinear|Sesquilinear]] ([[User talk:Sesquilinear|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Sesquilinear|contribs]]) 02:38, 13 February 2026 (UTC)
::::::::::That closed the discussion. [[User:Harold Foppele|Harold Foppele]] ([[User talk:Harold Foppele|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Harold Foppele|contribs]]) 08:32, 13 February 2026 (UTC)
:::::::::::It’s not formally closed yet, you just got blocked for a week. [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 08:48, 13 February 2026 (UTC)
::::::::::::So you want to keep discussing it here? [[User:Harold Foppele|Harold Foppele]] ([[User talk:Harold Foppele|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Harold Foppele|contribs]]) 08:51, 13 February 2026 (UTC)
:::Correct and it need a lot of additions. [[User:Harold Foppele|Harold Foppele]] ([[User talk:Harold Foppele|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Harold Foppele|contribs]]) 21:31, 11 February 2026 (UTC)

* '''Keep''' since this will be part of future developments. [[User:Harold Foppele|Harold Foppele]] ([[User talk:Harold Foppele|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Harold Foppele|contribs]]) 12:42, 11 February 2026 (UTC)
*:What future developments are you talking about, by the way? [[User:Sesquilinear|Sesquilinear]] ([[User talk:Sesquilinear|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Sesquilinear|contribs]]) 17:50, 12 February 2026 (UTC)
*::Q&amp;A [[User:Harold Foppele|Harold Foppele]] ([[User talk:Harold Foppele|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Harold Foppele|contribs]]) 18:18, 12 February 2026 (UTC)

:'''Delete''', User is just evading their block on English Wikipedia by creating the page here and making a interwiki link on English wiki. This also falls outside Wikiversity's scope. [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 07:18, 13 February 2026 (UTC)
::[[File:Information orange.svg|35px|alt=Information icon]] The evading or not evading WP has nothing to do with the existence of the page here.Whether it falls within WV scope is for admins to decide [[User:Harold Foppele|Harold Foppele]] ([[User talk:Harold Foppele|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Harold Foppele|contribs]]) 08:46, 13 February 2026 (UTC)
:Please see the related discussion [[#Wikipedia style personal profiles|below]] which includes this page. Consideration should be given to merging the discussions [[User:Timtrent|Timtrent]] ([[User talk:Timtrent|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Timtrent|contribs]]) 11:17, 17 February 2026 (UTC)
: I have reverted an attempt by Harold Foppele to remove the RfD tag out of process. [[User:Pppery|Pppery]] ([[User talk:Pppery|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Pppery|contribs]]) 18:01, 4 March 2026 (UTC)
::I have reverted your revert. For information contact [[user:atcovi|atcovi]]. @[[User:Pppery|Pppery]] you have a [[W:WP:SPA|WP:SPA]] account at the moment. [[User:Harold Foppele|Harold Foppele]] ([[User talk:Harold Foppele|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Harold Foppele|contribs]]) 21:37, 4 March 2026 (UTC)
::: Nope. I'm not a SPA. Far less than half of my edits to Wikiversity are related to this topic. And your comment here is frankly incoherent. [[User:Pppery|Pppery]] ([[User talk:Pppery|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Pppery|contribs]]) 22:23, 4 March 2026 (UTC)
::::In this case you are. But I'm not discussing that with you. Your last visit here was aug. 18 2024. So you are only here as SPA. [[User:Harold Foppele|Harold Foppele]] ([[User talk:Harold Foppele|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Harold Foppele|contribs]]) 22:44, 4 March 2026 (UTC)
*{{Comment}} The creating editor has now repeatedly removed the RFD notice form this item. I have explained to them that this behaviour is choosing to volunteer for a block and that it must remain until the deletion process is closed and concluded. 🇵🇸&amp;zwj;🇺🇦&amp;nbsp;[[User:Timtrent|Timtrent]]&amp;nbsp;🇺🇦&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Timtrent|talk to me]]&amp;nbsp;🇺🇦&amp;zwj;🇵🇸 22:52, 4 March 2026 (UTC)
*{{comment}} Harold Foppele and two socks are now indef globally blocked for LTA/xwiki abuse/sock-related disruption. [[User:DMacks|DMacks]] ([[User talk:DMacks|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/DMacks|contribs]]) 13:11, 8 March 2026 (UTC)
{{archive bottom}}

== Uploads by {{U|Harold Foppele}} ==
{{archive top|'''Deleted''' per improper licensing. Images can be restored through VRT approval. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 14:08, 10 March 2026 (UTC)}}
* [[:File:Professor Tenio Popmintchev.png]]
* [[:File:Henry C. Kapteyn.png]]
* [[:File:Dimitar Popmintchev.png]]

The uploader appears unable to find correct licencing for these files, and I do not believe that they have the correct permissions to upload them. The have now stated that they are PD, but each has previously been nominated as a copyvio (please see individual file history). They cannot be other than copyvios and the subject of the photograph is very unlikely to be able to release the to be PD.

Ownership or possession of a photo, proprietorship of the equipment used to take the photo, or being the subject of the photo does not equate to holding the copyright. The copyright holder is the photographer (i.e. the person who took the photo), rather than the subject (the person who appears in the photo) or the person possessing the photo, unless transferred by operation of law (e.g. inheritance, etc.) or by contract (written and signed by the copyright holder, and explicitly transfers the copyright). Evidence of any transfer of licencing must be sent via [[WV:VRT]] [[User:Timtrent|Timtrent]] ([[User talk:Timtrent|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Timtrent|contribs]]) 11:26, 13 February 2026 (UTC)

:@[[User:Timtrent|Timtrent]] I just found https://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Wikiversity:Copyright_issues. Quote: This declaration of consent needs to be sent from the author (or forwarded from the author) to permissions-en AT wikimedia DOT org. Unquote. Exact quote. Someone should re-write it maybe. So I shall get the correct info or have it sent by the respective owners. [[User:Harold Foppele|Harold Foppele]] ([[User talk:Harold Foppele|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Harold Foppele|contribs]]) 11:44, 13 February 2026 (UTC)
::@[[User:Harold Foppele|Harold Foppele]] Please make sure that the '''copyright owner''' furnishes the correct permissions. If the files have been deleted then VRT will organise reinstatement. My second paragraph above is not only information for you, but is part of the deletion rationale. [[User:Timtrent|Timtrent]] ([[User talk:Timtrent|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Timtrent|contribs]]) 12:10, 13 February 2026 (UTC)
:The descriptions seem to have been changed to &quot;fair use&quot; with rationale &quot;Infobox picture&quot;, which I believe is not a valid rationale for using nonfree content. [[User:Sesquilinear|Sesquilinear]] ([[User talk:Sesquilinear|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Sesquilinear|contribs]]) 21:29, 13 February 2026 (UTC)
::@[[User:Sesquilinear|Sesquilinear]] if there is a ''genuine'' educational prpupose,then it may be borderline, but VRT permission is always the best, and leaves no doubt.
::A decision is still needed of in or out of scope, though. [[User:Timtrent|Timtrent]] ([[User talk:Timtrent|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Timtrent|contribs]]) 22:58, 13 February 2026 (UTC)
:::@[[User:Sesquilinear|Sesquilinear]] I see that your WV account is a [[Wikipedia:Single-purpose account|'''single-purpose''' '''account''']]  [[User:Harold Foppele|Harold Foppele]] ([[User talk:Harold Foppele|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Harold Foppele|contribs]]) 22:37, 14 February 2026 (UTC)
*{{comment}} The uploader has now uploaded entirely different pictures with the same filename, something which is wholly inappropriate during a deletion discussion.  Each file page now shows that the file is copyright of the person featured. This is improbable because, as explained several times to the uploader:
*:{{Blue|Ownership or possession of a photo, proprietorship of the equipment used to take the photo, or being the subject of the photo does not equate to holding the copyright. The copyright holder is the photographer (i.e. the person who took the photo), rather than the subject (the person who appears in the photo) or the person possessing the photo, unless transferred by operation of law (e.g. inheritance, etc.) or by contract (written and signed by the copyright holder, and explicitly transfers the copyright). Evidence of any transfer of licencing must be sent via [[WV:VRT]]}}
:The claim of Fair Use is plausible ''&lt;u&gt;only&lt;/u&gt; if there is an education purpose as defined in the doctrine of Fair Use'', and only if the minimum possible of the original is used at the lowest reasonable resolution. Neither of these latter two is correct and I cannot see the educational purpose since the pictures are being used to decorate what took very much like enWiki articles as profile pictures, no more and no less. Wikiversity does not hold profile articles.
:For these pictures, these specific pictures, all of them under these three file names, to remain here I believe it is essential that prof of the right to upload them here is lodged via [[WV:VRT]], otherwise they must be deleted, each and every version of them. [[User:Timtrent|Timtrent]] ([[User talk:Timtrent|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Timtrent|contribs]]) 22:45, 16 February 2026 (UTC)
::I read through the entire discussion, and some of the discussion on the users talk pages, and support this statement made by Timtrent. Proof should be lodged to VRT, and if that’s not they should be deleted. [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 01:05, 17 February 2026 (UTC)
*{{Comment}} The uploader has today nominated [[:File:Henry C. Kapteyn.png]] fr speedy deletion stating that it is obsolete. They modified the nomination to mention it. I have reverted that and am leaving this comment as a servce to the eventual closer of this discussion.  [[User:Timtrent|Timtrent]] ([[User talk:Timtrent|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Timtrent|contribs]]) 10:41, 19 February 2026 (UTC)
*{{Comment}} [[:File:Henry C. Kapteyn.png]] deleted as unused Fair use. --[[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 18:33, 3 March 2026 (UTC)

:Has any response come from VRT? Note that the uploading user was globally blocked for sockpuppetry. [[User:Sesquilinear|Sesquilinear]] ([[User talk:Sesquilinear|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Sesquilinear|contribs]]) 21:29, 9 March 2026 (UTC)
::{{Comment}} @[[User:Sesquilinear|Sesquilinear]] Were it to come the usual process is for VRT to lodge the ticket number and the permissions on the file page(s). What I can see is that no such annotation has been placed there, nor has any &quot;Correspondence has been received&quot; been placed there. 
::Sijce the VRT process also requests undeletion of any files deleted before or during the permissions process I believe it woful be safe for this to be closed as ''delete'' knowing that the process will restore them if necessary. The Global Block may be appealed, but, unless and until that is done, I doubt that anyone will choose to use those files. 🇵🇸&amp;zwj;🇺🇦&amp;nbsp;[[User:Timtrent|Timtrent]]&amp;nbsp;🇺🇦&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Timtrent|talk to me]]&amp;nbsp;🇺🇦&amp;zwj;🇵🇸 23:00, 9 March 2026 (UTC)
{{archive bottom}}

== Wikipedia style personal profiles ==
{{archive top|'''Deleted''' - Pages are out of scope, user has been globally blocked, and pages have been moved to a private wiki. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 14:02, 10 March 2026 (UTC)}}
The following personal profiles fail [[Wikiversity:What Wikiversity is not]] in that they are are Wikipedia style articles. It is clear that ''Wikiversity is not Wikipedia''. Indeed, Wikipedia articles may be interwiki-linked where necessary to/from Wikiversity material:
*[[Quantum/Henry C. Kapteyn]] 
::(being discussed [[#Quantum/Henry C. Kapteyn|above]] with a suggestion that the earlier discussion should either continue there or be merged into this overall DR by any user in good standing) (See [[w:en:Henry Kapteyn]]}
*[[Quantum/Tenio Popmintchev]] 
::(See [[w:en:Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Tenio Popmintchev]])
*[[Quantum Ultra fast lasers/Dimitar popmintchev]]
They appear to be here because the creating user is blocked on enWiki - [[Special:CentralAuth/Harold Foppele]] with their block set to expire on 19 February.

We are not here to discuss the notability of these people, that is a Wikipedia issue. Assuming them to be notable they have a place there. We are here to determine whether they are items which should appear here.

We are not here to discuss enWiki block pseudo-evasion. That is irrelevant to Wikiversity (0.9 probability), though may be of concern to enWiki admins. We are only discussing whether they are items which should appear here.

&lt;small&gt;Courtesy pings to [[User:Pppery|Pppery]], [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]], [[User:Harold Foppele|Harold Foppele]], [[Special:Contributions/~2026-94094-0|~2026-94094-0]], [[User:AndyTheGrump|AndyTheGrump]], all participants in the discussion above. My apologies if I have missed any participants.&lt;/small&gt; [[User:Timtrent|Timtrent]] ([[User talk:Timtrent|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Timtrent|contribs]]) 11:15, 17 February 2026 (UTC)

:While I'm not a Wikiversity regular, and thus not really familiar with all the details regarding WV's criteria for suitable topics, I'd have to agree that it would seem odd for WV to be acting as an alternative host for material that would normally be hosted on Wikipedia. One could quite reasonably assume that individuals looking for biographical material would be looking there, and not here. Projects are supposed to be complementary, and not competing for readers by hosting similar content. [[User:AndyTheGrump|AndyTheGrump]] ([[User talk:AndyTheGrump|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/AndyTheGrump|contribs]]) 16:08, 17 February 2026 (UTC)
:&lt;small&gt;Some of the active custodians are on holidays, they should be back soon. &lt;/small&gt; [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 00:17, 18 February 2026 (UTC)
{{archive bottom}}</text>
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    </revision>
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      <timestamp>2026-05-10T09:10:47Z</timestamp>
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        <username>Juandev</username>
        <id>2651</id>
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      <text bytes="43096" sha1="j2hukibqfeyzz4l5nwhoudvyjlwyx0a" xml:space="preserve">{{archive|Wikiversity:Requests for Deletion}}
== [[:Category:LAMAI Theological Academy]] and all related content ==
{{archive top|'''Deleted''' - Obviously useless content that fails to meet Wikiversity's scope. I've also filed a [[meta:Steward_requests/Checkuser#Bmlamai@en.wikiversity|Checkuser]] request on Meta for all the new accounts voting in favor of this page. 2 accounts have been indef'd on the grounds of spam/promotional use only due to obvious association with the pages. EDIT: And of course, a massive thank you to [[User:AKA MBG|AKA MBG]] for raising this issue and Dave for bringing it to WV:RFD. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 12:46, 4 January 2026 (UTC)}}
See [[User_talk:Dave_Braunschweig#Theological_Academy]] for context. Based on a Google search, LAMAI appears to stand for the &quot;League of Arhats of the International Academy of Truth&quot;. Google AI indicates this &quot;is not a widely recognized organization, and there is no publicly available, verifiable information about its existence or activities through general search, legal records, or news reports.&quot; The only associated link is a telegram shortcut with a single member. Based on this background information, I agree with [[User:AKA MBG]] that it is very likely any user account associated with LAMAI is a single user and all of the related content was created in violation of a block from 2022.

While I am inclined to delete the content outright and block the associated user accounts, I am no longer active and want to defer to the community for confirmation.

[[User:Dave Braunschweig|Dave Braunschweig]] ([[User talk:Dave Braunschweig|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dave Braunschweig|contribs]]) 20:57, 11 December 2025 (UTC)
: '''Move to user space''' or, as a second best option, '''delete''' per Dave above. --[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] ([[User talk:Dan Polansky|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dan Polansky|contribs]]) 09:16, 12 December 2025 (UTC)
::; “Marginality” of the LAMAI Theological Academy — on the merits
::# Syncretic personal doctrine
::#* Buddhism + Hinduism + Christianity + Communism + political figures (“Two prophets — Lenin and Stalin.” (p. 132; page numbers refer to the Russian-language version of the textbook, which I reviewed. The textbook is available on the traditio.wiki website in both Russian and English and is the source on which the LAMAI Theological Academy course on Wikiversity is based)).
::#* This is not a course about religions, but a course of a single authorial system.
::# Lack of external verification
::#* No academic sources.
::#* No recognition in religious studies.
::#* No neutral third-party overview.
::# Normativity. The text constantly states:
::#* “in fact”
::#* “this is an error”
::#* religions lied (quotation: “As for cause and effect, the Bible, of course, lied.” p. 24)
::This is not research, but preaching.
::; Evaluation of the textbook “LAMAI. A Textbook of Spiritual Practice”
::Below is an evaluation of the text on which the course is based.
::1) '''Plagiarism / borrowings'''. There is no formal plagiarism. The text is an authorial synthesis, but:
::* it actively redefines:
::** Buddhist terms (nirvana, karma, bodhisattva);
::** Christian concepts (God, the devil, the Holy Spirit);
::* this is done without references and in contradiction to canonical interpretations.
::This is not plagiarism, but incorrect authorial eclecticism.
::2) '''Potential harm to individuals''' is present in the textbook, and it is direct. A critically dangerous fragment:
:: “The state of samadhi is achieved through interval dry fasting… One must fast for ten days… Interval dry fasting eliminates almost any disease.” (quotations from different pages of the book; this text is also present in the annotation to the book on p. 1).
::This is:
::* a medically false statement;
::* a potentially dangerous recommendation;
::* capable of leading to dehydration, kidney failure, and death.
::Other dangerous theses:
::* “Almost all diseases are the result of karma” (p. 33);
:::* → risk of refusing medical care.
::* “Cancer is the result of the karma of greed” (p. 33);
:::* → psychological traumatization of patients.
::All of this can be described as harmful health misinformation.
::3) Contradictions with modern science and evidence-based medicine
::There are many contradictions, and they are systemic:
::* Denial of the biological nature of diseases.
::* The assertion that plants “do not have a psyche” (pp. 32–33), and that diseases directly depend on moral qualities.
::* A mystical cosmology presented as ontological reality.
::This is acceptable as an object of study, but unacceptable as an educational guide.
::; My personal opinion:
::# Does not meet Wikiversity standards as an educational course
::# Contains potentially dangerous health-related assertions
::# May exist only:
::#* in user space;
::#* or as an object of critical analysis (“analysis of the LAMAI doctrine”). -- [[User:AKA MBG|Andrew Krizhanovsky]] ([[User talk:AKA MBG|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/AKA MBG|contribs]]) 16:20, 13 December 2025 (UTC)

I am against the deletion of the &quot;LAMAI Academy&quot;. It is a very good and useful educational project. [[User:Lamaibum|Lamaibum]] ([[User talk:Lamaibum|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Lamaibum|contribs]]) 05:23, 20 December 2025 (UTC)

I am against the deletion of the &quot;LAMAI Academy&quot;, because this is quite an
innovative project.

I am against deletion of the &quot;LAMAI Academy&quot;. [[User:Alexa89898|Alexa89898]] ([[User talk:Alexa89898|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Alexa89898|contribs]]) 15:54, 21 December 2025 (UTC)

I am against deletion. [[User:AndyLane13|AndyLane13]] ([[User talk:AndyLane13|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/AndyLane13|contribs]]) 16:37, 22 December 2025 (UTC)

I, too, am against deletion. Whether the aforementioned critiques have merit or not, it is clear to me that this some kind of new theological/metaphysical framework. We wouldn't delete, say, Ayurveda or TCM courses just because they don't strictly adhere to the scientific method. They still represent a field of human knowledge/endeavour.
I think the same applies here. Thus I am against the deletion. [[User:GiacintoDelArco|GiacintoDelArco]] ([[User talk:GiacintoDelArco|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/GiacintoDelArco|contribs]]) 11:35, 26 December 2025 (UTC)

I agree with what has been said here and I am against deletion. There is no need to delete it in my opinion. Leave it up. Otherwise, if one would really try to be consistent, one would have to delete a bazillion of other stuff as well. [[User:Bmlamai|Bmlamai]] ([[User talk:Bmlamai|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Bmlamai|contribs]]) 11:53, 26 December 2025 (UTC)

: I am afraid, that [[User:Lamaibum]], [[User:Bmlamai]], [[User:Alexa89898]], [[User:AndyLane13]] and [[User:GiacintoDelArco]] are the same person. -- [[User:AKA MBG|Andrew Krizhanovsky]] ([[User talk:AKA MBG|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/AKA MBG|contribs]]) 07:55, 3 January 2026 (UTC)
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== [[Should Wiktionary avoid indefinite blocks of productive users?]] ==
{{archive top|'''deleted''' by Koavf. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 22:17, 19 January 2026 (UTC)}}
Page created by Dan Polanksy (now facing a 3-month block for disruptive editing), &quot;coincidentally&quot; created after his infinite block from the English Wiktionary. There are even more concerning pages listed [https://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/User_talk:Dan_Polansky/2020-2024#Debates_on_policies_of_other_Wikimedia_projects here] that show how much of a joke the &quot;Wikidebate&quot; realm of Wikiversity has turned into. Hell, this one argument which Dan made up is just absurd: &quot;An indefinite block is un-Christian, failing to implement Christian forgiveness.&quot;. How is this educational whatsoever? Who would benefit from such useless content?

I'm inclined to delete this page as an attack page and out of scope anyhow, but I'd thought I'd leave this here for a few days for anyone else to give an opinion for. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 17:38, 30 December 2025 (UTC)

:This is absurd again. I'm just deleting this. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 22:12, 19 January 2026 (UTC)
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== [[Portal:Fencing]] ==
{{archive top|Closing, discussion had already reached a conclusion and an action was carried out [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 12:30, 11 March 2026 (UTC)}}
Is this really a useful portal, there doesn't seem to be any relevant links to other pages? [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 11:13, 29 January 2026 (UTC)

:I'd invite {{ping|VidanaliK}} to this discussion, and to be honest I don't think this needed to come to RFD. I think the page should be moved into the mainspace &quot;Fencing&quot; page and it is not fit for Portal namespace (per [[Wikiversity:Portal]]). I'd like VidanaliK to understand this or provide their input before I move the page. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 15:22, 29 January 2026 (UTC)
::I had no clue there was a mainspace fencing page: I had looked for that all over. I was going to add more pages that this could link to but exceeded my new user limit (see the three pages I've drafted in my sandbox). [[User:VidanaliK|VidanaliK]] ([[User talk:VidanaliK|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/VidanaliK|contribs]]) 16:22, 29 January 2026 (UTC)
:::OK, now there is a linked page to Rapier fencing, and also, I don't see any mainspace &quot;Fencing&quot;; I could move it to that if it is inappropriate for Portal namespace. [[User:VidanaliK|VidanaliK]] ([[User talk:VidanaliK|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/VidanaliK|contribs]]) 16:46, 29 January 2026 (UTC)
::::Hey {{ping|VidanaliK}} sorry that this is so messy. I've moved all of your recently created pages under the main Fencing learning project. You have some duplicates: [[Fencing/Thibault rapier]] &amp; [[Fencing/Rapier/Thibault]]. Please indicate which page you'd like to remove. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 16:52, 29 January 2026 (UTC)
:::::I prefer [[Fencing/Rapier/Thibault]] and [[Fencing/Rapier/Capo Ferro]]. It's easier organisation. [[User:VidanaliK|VidanaliK]] ([[User talk:VidanaliK|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/VidanaliK|contribs]]) 16:53, 29 January 2026 (UTC)
:::::Also, I'd prefer that [[Fencing/Rapier fencing]] be moved to [[Fencing/Rapier]] since it's already implied that it's rapier. [[User:VidanaliK|VidanaliK]] ([[User talk:VidanaliK|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/VidanaliK|contribs]]) 16:55, 29 January 2026 (UTC)
::::::Thanks for fixing everything! [[User:VidanaliK|VidanaliK]] ([[User talk:VidanaliK|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/VidanaliK|contribs]]) 18:58, 29 January 2026 (UTC)
:::{{ping|VidanaliK}} I'd suggest making a main page, [[Fencing]], and the pages you are currently making ([[Capo Ferro rapier]], ex.) can be moved under this learning project. Ex, [[Capo Ferro rapier]] --&gt; [[Fencing/Capo Ferro rapier]]. See [[Help:Subpages]]. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 16:47, 29 January 2026 (UTC)
::Noted, Thanks. I will remember this for the future. [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 06:35, 30 January 2026 (UTC)
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== [[Creating connected learning environments]] ==
{{archive top|'''Deleted''' per consensus.--[[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 08:07, 16 March 2026 (UTC)}}
Underdeveloped project with 2 authors who've been inactive for 5+ years. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 01:48, 1 January 2026 (UTC)

:Delete [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 11:16, 22 January 2026 (UTC)

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== [[Political theory]] ==
{{archive top|'''Deleted''' per consensus.--[[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 08:22, 16 March 2026 (UTC)}}
Underdeveloped since 2006. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 15:23, 21 January 2026 (UTC)

:'''Delete''' —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 19:21, 21 January 2026 (UTC)

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== [[Quantum/Henry C. Kapteyn]] ==
{{archive top|'''Deleted''' as out of scope + user has been gblocked. NOTE: I also want to make it clear I never gave permission for Harold to remove the RFD tag, per my message to him on his talk page, and this seems to have came out through a misunderstanding. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 14:09, 10 March 2026 (UTC)}}
Per [[w:Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard#Evading block?]]. [[User:Pppery|Pppery]] ([[User talk:Pppery|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Pppery|contribs]]) 19:40, 10 February 2026 (UTC)

:@[[User:Harold Foppele|Harold Foppele]] Does this even belong to Wikiversity ([[Wikiversity:What is Wikiversity?]])? [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 10:50, 11 February 2026 (UTC)
::@[[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] Yes it does. [[wikipedia:Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard#Evading_block?|w:Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard#Evading block]] has nothing to do with Wikiversity. So elaborate your question. 11:07, 11 February 2026 (UTC) [[User:Harold Foppele|Harold Foppele]] ([[User talk:Harold Foppele|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Harold Foppele|contribs]]) 11:07, 11 February 2026 (UTC)
:::How is a biography got anything to do with wikiversity? [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 11:07, 11 February 2026 (UTC)
::::Since it will be part of an education section we are working on. Just curious, what brought you here? [[User:Harold Foppele|Harold Foppele]] ([[User talk:Harold Foppele|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Harold Foppele|contribs]]) 11:12, 11 February 2026 (UTC)
:::::Can you elaborate how it will be part of it? I saw this while working on archiving this RFD page. [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 11:13, 11 February 2026 (UTC)
:::I understand, it is brought to Rfd by someone outside Wikiversity. [[User:Harold Foppele|Harold Foppele]] ([[User talk:Harold Foppele|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Harold Foppele|contribs]]) 11:29, 11 February 2026 (UTC)
::::::@[[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] did you get the curator flag? [[User:Harold Foppele|Harold Foppele]] ([[User talk:Harold Foppele|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Harold Foppele|contribs]]) 11:20, 11 February 2026 (UTC)
:::::::No, how is that part of this discussion? [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 12:00, 11 February 2026 (UTC)
::::::::It is not, just a question. [[User:Harold Foppele|Harold Foppele]] ([[User talk:Harold Foppele|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Harold Foppele|contribs]]) 12:36, 11 February 2026 (UTC)
::It looks like a Wikipedia page to me. [[User:Sesquilinear|Sesquilinear]] ([[User talk:Sesquilinear|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Sesquilinear|contribs]]) 19:49, 11 February 2026 (UTC)
:::That's because it is one, by design. Foppele is currently subject to a block on En.Wikipedaia on “Creating new pages and uploading new files with an expiration time of indefinite” due to repeated issues with poor quality content. Foppele created the biography here, matching exactly the style and layout of a normal Wikipedia biography, and then created a cross-Wiki Wikilink to insert into a Wikipedia article, with the clear intent to game the system in order to evade the block. This is currently being discussed on the En.Wikipedia Administrators noticeboard [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard#Evading_block?], and may well result in further sanctions. I've no in-depth understanding of Wikiversity policy on such things, but I can't help wondering whether the project would consider such practices to be in accord with its stated purpose, which presumably isn't as a conduit for evading blocks from other projects. [[Special:Contributions/&amp;#126;2026-94094-0|&amp;#126;2026-94094-0]] ([[User talk:&amp;#126;2026-94094-0|talk]]) 22:39, 11 February 2026 (UTC)
::::Why this hidden account this happend before ?[[User:Harold Foppele|Harold Foppele]] ([[User talk:Harold Foppele|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Harold Foppele|contribs]]) 23:07, 11 February 2026 (UTC)
:::::I'm not attempting to hide anything - I'd just not realised that I wasn't signed in automatically, as normally happens between projects. Now how about giving an explanation for why you used the Wikiversity project to evade an En.Wikipedia block through deceptive linking? Do you consider that appropriate behaviour on either project? [[User:AndyTheGrump|AndyTheGrump]] ([[User talk:AndyTheGrump|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/AndyTheGrump|contribs]]) 23:33, 11 February 2026 (UTC)
::::::The discussion at WP is closed. [[User:Harold Foppele|Harold Foppele]] ([[User talk:Harold Foppele|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Harold Foppele|contribs]]) 08:43, 12 February 2026 (UTC)
:::::::Indeed. Closed after you have been blocked for a week for what was &quot;blatantly an attempt at gaming the pblock&quot;, with a comment by the blocking admin that they were &quot;tempted to simply indef&quot;. So, where's the explanation for your behaviour '''here'''? Do you consider it appropriate to use Wikiversity project facilities for block evasion in other WMF projects? [[User:AndyTheGrump|AndyTheGrump]] ([[User talk:AndyTheGrump|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/AndyTheGrump|contribs]]) 16:42, 12 February 2026 (UTC) 
::::::::The discussion is closed.[[User:Harold Foppele|Harold Foppele]] ([[User talk:Harold Foppele|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Harold Foppele|contribs]]) 16:53, 12 February 2026 (UTC)
:::::::::The discussion isn't actually closed, though you are blocked for a week for it. [[User:Sesquilinear|Sesquilinear]] ([[User talk:Sesquilinear|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Sesquilinear|contribs]]) 02:38, 13 February 2026 (UTC)
::::::::::That closed the discussion. [[User:Harold Foppele|Harold Foppele]] ([[User talk:Harold Foppele|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Harold Foppele|contribs]]) 08:32, 13 February 2026 (UTC)
:::::::::::It’s not formally closed yet, you just got blocked for a week. [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 08:48, 13 February 2026 (UTC)
::::::::::::So you want to keep discussing it here? [[User:Harold Foppele|Harold Foppele]] ([[User talk:Harold Foppele|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Harold Foppele|contribs]]) 08:51, 13 February 2026 (UTC)
:::Correct and it need a lot of additions. [[User:Harold Foppele|Harold Foppele]] ([[User talk:Harold Foppele|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Harold Foppele|contribs]]) 21:31, 11 February 2026 (UTC)

* '''Keep''' since this will be part of future developments. [[User:Harold Foppele|Harold Foppele]] ([[User talk:Harold Foppele|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Harold Foppele|contribs]]) 12:42, 11 February 2026 (UTC)
*:What future developments are you talking about, by the way? [[User:Sesquilinear|Sesquilinear]] ([[User talk:Sesquilinear|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Sesquilinear|contribs]]) 17:50, 12 February 2026 (UTC)
*::Q&amp;A [[User:Harold Foppele|Harold Foppele]] ([[User talk:Harold Foppele|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Harold Foppele|contribs]]) 18:18, 12 February 2026 (UTC)

:'''Delete''', User is just evading their block on English Wikipedia by creating the page here and making a interwiki link on English wiki. This also falls outside Wikiversity's scope. [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 07:18, 13 February 2026 (UTC)
::[[File:Information orange.svg|35px|alt=Information icon]] The evading or not evading WP has nothing to do with the existence of the page here.Whether it falls within WV scope is for admins to decide [[User:Harold Foppele|Harold Foppele]] ([[User talk:Harold Foppele|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Harold Foppele|contribs]]) 08:46, 13 February 2026 (UTC)
:Please see the related discussion [[#Wikipedia style personal profiles|below]] which includes this page. Consideration should be given to merging the discussions [[User:Timtrent|Timtrent]] ([[User talk:Timtrent|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Timtrent|contribs]]) 11:17, 17 February 2026 (UTC)
: I have reverted an attempt by Harold Foppele to remove the RfD tag out of process. [[User:Pppery|Pppery]] ([[User talk:Pppery|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Pppery|contribs]]) 18:01, 4 March 2026 (UTC)
::I have reverted your revert. For information contact [[user:atcovi|atcovi]]. @[[User:Pppery|Pppery]] you have a [[W:WP:SPA|WP:SPA]] account at the moment. [[User:Harold Foppele|Harold Foppele]] ([[User talk:Harold Foppele|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Harold Foppele|contribs]]) 21:37, 4 March 2026 (UTC)
::: Nope. I'm not a SPA. Far less than half of my edits to Wikiversity are related to this topic. And your comment here is frankly incoherent. [[User:Pppery|Pppery]] ([[User talk:Pppery|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Pppery|contribs]]) 22:23, 4 March 2026 (UTC)
::::In this case you are. But I'm not discussing that with you. Your last visit here was aug. 18 2024. So you are only here as SPA. [[User:Harold Foppele|Harold Foppele]] ([[User talk:Harold Foppele|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Harold Foppele|contribs]]) 22:44, 4 March 2026 (UTC)
*{{Comment}} The creating editor has now repeatedly removed the RFD notice form this item. I have explained to them that this behaviour is choosing to volunteer for a block and that it must remain until the deletion process is closed and concluded. 🇵🇸&amp;zwj;🇺🇦&amp;nbsp;[[User:Timtrent|Timtrent]]&amp;nbsp;🇺🇦&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Timtrent|talk to me]]&amp;nbsp;🇺🇦&amp;zwj;🇵🇸 22:52, 4 March 2026 (UTC)
*{{comment}} Harold Foppele and two socks are now indef globally blocked for LTA/xwiki abuse/sock-related disruption. [[User:DMacks|DMacks]] ([[User talk:DMacks|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/DMacks|contribs]]) 13:11, 8 March 2026 (UTC)
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== Uploads by {{U|Harold Foppele}} ==
{{archive top|'''Deleted''' per improper licensing. Images can be restored through VRT approval. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 14:08, 10 March 2026 (UTC)}}
* [[:File:Professor Tenio Popmintchev.png]]
* [[:File:Henry C. Kapteyn.png]]
* [[:File:Dimitar Popmintchev.png]]

The uploader appears unable to find correct licencing for these files, and I do not believe that they have the correct permissions to upload them. The have now stated that they are PD, but each has previously been nominated as a copyvio (please see individual file history). They cannot be other than copyvios and the subject of the photograph is very unlikely to be able to release the to be PD.

Ownership or possession of a photo, proprietorship of the equipment used to take the photo, or being the subject of the photo does not equate to holding the copyright. The copyright holder is the photographer (i.e. the person who took the photo), rather than the subject (the person who appears in the photo) or the person possessing the photo, unless transferred by operation of law (e.g. inheritance, etc.) or by contract (written and signed by the copyright holder, and explicitly transfers the copyright). Evidence of any transfer of licencing must be sent via [[WV:VRT]] [[User:Timtrent|Timtrent]] ([[User talk:Timtrent|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Timtrent|contribs]]) 11:26, 13 February 2026 (UTC)

:@[[User:Timtrent|Timtrent]] I just found https://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Wikiversity:Copyright_issues. Quote: This declaration of consent needs to be sent from the author (or forwarded from the author) to permissions-en AT wikimedia DOT org. Unquote. Exact quote. Someone should re-write it maybe. So I shall get the correct info or have it sent by the respective owners. [[User:Harold Foppele|Harold Foppele]] ([[User talk:Harold Foppele|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Harold Foppele|contribs]]) 11:44, 13 February 2026 (UTC)
::@[[User:Harold Foppele|Harold Foppele]] Please make sure that the '''copyright owner''' furnishes the correct permissions. If the files have been deleted then VRT will organise reinstatement. My second paragraph above is not only information for you, but is part of the deletion rationale. [[User:Timtrent|Timtrent]] ([[User talk:Timtrent|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Timtrent|contribs]]) 12:10, 13 February 2026 (UTC)
:The descriptions seem to have been changed to &quot;fair use&quot; with rationale &quot;Infobox picture&quot;, which I believe is not a valid rationale for using nonfree content. [[User:Sesquilinear|Sesquilinear]] ([[User talk:Sesquilinear|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Sesquilinear|contribs]]) 21:29, 13 February 2026 (UTC)
::@[[User:Sesquilinear|Sesquilinear]] if there is a ''genuine'' educational prpupose,then it may be borderline, but VRT permission is always the best, and leaves no doubt.
::A decision is still needed of in or out of scope, though. [[User:Timtrent|Timtrent]] ([[User talk:Timtrent|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Timtrent|contribs]]) 22:58, 13 February 2026 (UTC)
:::@[[User:Sesquilinear|Sesquilinear]] I see that your WV account is a [[Wikipedia:Single-purpose account|'''single-purpose''' '''account''']]  [[User:Harold Foppele|Harold Foppele]] ([[User talk:Harold Foppele|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Harold Foppele|contribs]]) 22:37, 14 February 2026 (UTC)
*{{comment}} The uploader has now uploaded entirely different pictures with the same filename, something which is wholly inappropriate during a deletion discussion.  Each file page now shows that the file is copyright of the person featured. This is improbable because, as explained several times to the uploader:
*:{{Blue|Ownership or possession of a photo, proprietorship of the equipment used to take the photo, or being the subject of the photo does not equate to holding the copyright. The copyright holder is the photographer (i.e. the person who took the photo), rather than the subject (the person who appears in the photo) or the person possessing the photo, unless transferred by operation of law (e.g. inheritance, etc.) or by contract (written and signed by the copyright holder, and explicitly transfers the copyright). Evidence of any transfer of licencing must be sent via [[WV:VRT]]}}
:The claim of Fair Use is plausible ''&lt;u&gt;only&lt;/u&gt; if there is an education purpose as defined in the doctrine of Fair Use'', and only if the minimum possible of the original is used at the lowest reasonable resolution. Neither of these latter two is correct and I cannot see the educational purpose since the pictures are being used to decorate what took very much like enWiki articles as profile pictures, no more and no less. Wikiversity does not hold profile articles.
:For these pictures, these specific pictures, all of them under these three file names, to remain here I believe it is essential that prof of the right to upload them here is lodged via [[WV:VRT]], otherwise they must be deleted, each and every version of them. [[User:Timtrent|Timtrent]] ([[User talk:Timtrent|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Timtrent|contribs]]) 22:45, 16 February 2026 (UTC)
::I read through the entire discussion, and some of the discussion on the users talk pages, and support this statement made by Timtrent. Proof should be lodged to VRT, and if that’s not they should be deleted. [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 01:05, 17 February 2026 (UTC)
*{{Comment}} The uploader has today nominated [[:File:Henry C. Kapteyn.png]] fr speedy deletion stating that it is obsolete. They modified the nomination to mention it. I have reverted that and am leaving this comment as a servce to the eventual closer of this discussion.  [[User:Timtrent|Timtrent]] ([[User talk:Timtrent|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Timtrent|contribs]]) 10:41, 19 February 2026 (UTC)
*{{Comment}} [[:File:Henry C. Kapteyn.png]] deleted as unused Fair use. --[[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 18:33, 3 March 2026 (UTC)

:Has any response come from VRT? Note that the uploading user was globally blocked for sockpuppetry. [[User:Sesquilinear|Sesquilinear]] ([[User talk:Sesquilinear|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Sesquilinear|contribs]]) 21:29, 9 March 2026 (UTC)
::{{Comment}} @[[User:Sesquilinear|Sesquilinear]] Were it to come the usual process is for VRT to lodge the ticket number and the permissions on the file page(s). What I can see is that no such annotation has been placed there, nor has any &quot;Correspondence has been received&quot; been placed there. 
::Sijce the VRT process also requests undeletion of any files deleted before or during the permissions process I believe it woful be safe for this to be closed as ''delete'' knowing that the process will restore them if necessary. The Global Block may be appealed, but, unless and until that is done, I doubt that anyone will choose to use those files. 🇵🇸&amp;zwj;🇺🇦&amp;nbsp;[[User:Timtrent|Timtrent]]&amp;nbsp;🇺🇦&amp;nbsp;[[User talk:Timtrent|talk to me]]&amp;nbsp;🇺🇦&amp;zwj;🇵🇸 23:00, 9 March 2026 (UTC)
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== Wikipedia style personal profiles ==
{{archive top|'''Deleted''' - Pages are out of scope, user has been globally blocked, and pages have been moved to a private wiki. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 14:02, 10 March 2026 (UTC)}}
The following personal profiles fail [[Wikiversity:What Wikiversity is not]] in that they are are Wikipedia style articles. It is clear that ''Wikiversity is not Wikipedia''. Indeed, Wikipedia articles may be interwiki-linked where necessary to/from Wikiversity material:
*[[Quantum/Henry C. Kapteyn]] 
::(being discussed [[#Quantum/Henry C. Kapteyn|above]] with a suggestion that the earlier discussion should either continue there or be merged into this overall DR by any user in good standing) (See [[w:en:Henry Kapteyn]]}
*[[Quantum/Tenio Popmintchev]] 
::(See [[w:en:Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Tenio Popmintchev]])
*[[Quantum Ultra fast lasers/Dimitar popmintchev]]
They appear to be here because the creating user is blocked on enWiki - [[Special:CentralAuth/Harold Foppele]] with their block set to expire on 19 February.

We are not here to discuss the notability of these people, that is a Wikipedia issue. Assuming them to be notable they have a place there. We are here to determine whether they are items which should appear here.

We are not here to discuss enWiki block pseudo-evasion. That is irrelevant to Wikiversity (0.9 probability), though may be of concern to enWiki admins. We are only discussing whether they are items which should appear here.

&lt;small&gt;Courtesy pings to [[User:Pppery|Pppery]], [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]], [[User:Harold Foppele|Harold Foppele]], [[Special:Contributions/~2026-94094-0|~2026-94094-0]], [[User:AndyTheGrump|AndyTheGrump]], all participants in the discussion above. My apologies if I have missed any participants.&lt;/small&gt; [[User:Timtrent|Timtrent]] ([[User talk:Timtrent|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Timtrent|contribs]]) 11:15, 17 February 2026 (UTC)

:While I'm not a Wikiversity regular, and thus not really familiar with all the details regarding WV's criteria for suitable topics, I'd have to agree that it would seem odd for WV to be acting as an alternative host for material that would normally be hosted on Wikipedia. One could quite reasonably assume that individuals looking for biographical material would be looking there, and not here. Projects are supposed to be complementary, and not competing for readers by hosting similar content. [[User:AndyTheGrump|AndyTheGrump]] ([[User talk:AndyTheGrump|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/AndyTheGrump|contribs]]) 16:08, 17 February 2026 (UTC)
:&lt;small&gt;Some of the active custodians are on holidays, they should be back soon. &lt;/small&gt; [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 00:17, 18 February 2026 (UTC)
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== [[Gravitational torsion field]] ==
{{archive top|I have gone ahead and deleted this. I don’t see much point in moving to userspace as the users currently inactive. [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 12:30, 27 March 2026 (UTC)}}
The article [[Gravitational torsion field]] is proposed for deletion. Firstly, this article has no relation to the gravitational torsion field described in the article [[Physics/Essays/Fedosin/Gravitational torsion field]]. Secondly, the article's content is a mishmash of unrelated ideas and assumptions, many of which are not even related to gravitation.
[[User:Fedosin|Fedosin]] ([[User talk:Fedosin|обсуждение]] • [[Special:Contributions/Fedosin|вклад]]) 12:38, 9 November 2025 (UTC)
: '''Move to user space''', which is quasi-deletion. Searching the article for &quot;Gravitational torsion field&quot; finds nothing, not in the text, not in the references. The article is not labeled as original research, yet the headword &quot;Gravitational torsion field&quot; does not trace anywhere (it cannot trace anywhere from the body text since the body text does not have the headword). These are red flags. Further reading: [[W:User_talk:Swbraithwaite]], [[W:User talk:SWBPAUSEWATCH]], more red flags. --[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] ([[User talk:Dan Polansky|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dan Polansky|contribs]]) 12:48, 9 November 2025 (UTC)
:'''Delete'''. Low quality. Out of scope. Author no longer active on Wikiversity and has problematic WMF editing history. More detail: [https://chatgpt.com/share/6911338b-99ac-8008-833a-fb64e569a010 ChatGPT review]. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 00:40, 10 November 2025 (UTC)
:: I think we should move to user space unless we have a specific reason to outright delete, consistent with the position taken rather passionately by Guy vandegrift and supported by some other people, including probably by Dave Braunschweig who often moved pages to user space. Moreover, whether the page is out of scope, I am not sure; we do have author-specific articles (e.g.  [[Physics/Essays/Fedosin/Gravitational torsion field]]) and if the page was solid enough, it would not be out of scope, I think. --[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] ([[User talk:Dan Polansky|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dan Polansky|contribs]]) 08:33, 10 November 2025 (UTC)
:::Wikiversity is not free hosting service. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 08:47, 11 March 2026 (UTC)
:'''Delete'''. I dont understand its conntent, but the major obstacle is how to use this conentent. It looks like the copy of Wikipedia article so I would delete it. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 08:47, 11 March 2026 (UTC)

May be it is a simplest variant for the case.[[User:Fedosin|Fedosin]] ([[User talk:Fedosin|обсуждение]] • [[Special:Contributions/Fedosin|вклад]]) 14:10, 9 November 2025 (UTC)
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== [[Fairy Rings]] ==
{{archive top|Deleted, per consensus}}
The page and subpages do not show anything useful; this has been so since 2007, I think (maybe I do not concentrate). Author: [[User:Juandev]]. '''Move to user space''' (or delete if preferred by the author and co-authors?). --[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] ([[User talk:Dan Polansky|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dan Polansky|contribs]]) 14:57, 18 November 2025 (UTC)

For instance, [[Fairy Rings/Database/Lublaňská 25]] was created in 2014 by [[User:Juandev (usurped)]]; there are lat-lon coordinates and an empty section for observations.

In [[Fairy Rings/Database]], I entered auto subpage generation. It found:
* [[Fairy Rings/Database/Lublaňská 25]]
* [[Fairy Rings/Database/Test]]
* [[Fairy Rings/Database/Test 2]]
* [[Fairy Rings/Database/Test 2/May 14, 2014]]
--[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] ([[User talk:Dan Polansky|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dan Polansky|contribs]]) 15:02, 18 November 2025 (UTC)

The project has an introduction to the issue and clearly stated instructions. I don't see the lack of participation in the project yet as a problem. Wikiversity is not Wikipedia, we are not aiming for pages full of text here, however, if someone is bothered by it, it can be deleted. For me, it would be enough to edit and update the project a little. --[[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 19:40, 20 November 2025 (UTC)

'''Keep'''. Clear objective that is in scope. '''Delete''' the test database pages. -- [[User:Jtneill|Jtneill]] - &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Jtneill|Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Jtneill|c]]&lt;/small&gt; 12:01, 22 November 2025 (UTC)
: [[WV:Deletion]] indicates that pages for which &quot;learning outcomes are scarce&quot; (as is the case here) are to be deleted. I don't see any policy or guideline indicating that something having a clear objective that is in scope of the English Wikiversity is alone grounds for keeping, regardless of how useless or underdeveloped the page is (perhaps I was not looking carefully enough). --[[User:Dan Polansky|Dan Polansky]] ([[User talk:Dan Polansky|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Dan Polansky|contribs]]) 09:29, 12 December 2025 (UTC)
:Thats a good point. I would '''delete''' test pages which I have created and I would '''keep''' the rest. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 08:52, 11 March 2026 (UTC)
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== [[Theory of Everything (From Scratch) Project]] ==
{{archive top|Deleted [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 00:19, 3 April 2026 (UTC)}}
Underdeveloped project since 2010. Original author has been inactive wiki-wide since then. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 01:45, 1 January 2026 (UTC)

:Yup, I guess we can delete it. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 07:57, 16 March 2026 (UTC)
:@[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] @[[User:Juandev|Juandev]] Does this include, [[Theory of Everything (From Scratch) Project/The Origin]]? [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 09:53, 28 March 2026 (UTC)
::Yes as its low-quality, is part of the project, has not been improved on since 2010. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 18:43, 31 March 2026 (UTC)
::Yes, the tradition is, that it includes all subpages if it is not stated otherwise. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 18:41, 1 April 2026 (UTC)
:{{done}} [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 00:18, 3 April 2026 (UTC)
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== [[Seven Heavens]] ==
{{archive top|moved to userspace. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 13:23, 2 April 2026 (UTC)}}
Seems to be someone's personal beliefs rather than educational content that reflects Wikiversity's learning policies. It is not even labeled as such either. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 21:36, 19 January 2026 (UTC)

:This seems like '''speedy delete''' material to me. —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 22:10, 19 January 2026 (UTC)
:Agree [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 23:26, 19 January 2026 (UTC)
::Moved to userspace. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 13:23, 2 April 2026 (UTC)
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== [[Peace studies]] ==
{{archive top|'''Deleted''' per consensus.--[[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 17:23, 27 March 2026 (UTC)}}
Underdeveloped since 2006/2007. —[[User:Atcovi|Atcovi]] [[User talk:Atcovi|(Talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Atcovi|Contribs)]] 17:39, 21 January 2026 (UTC)
:'''Delete''' —[[User:Koavf|Justin (&lt;span style=&quot;color:grey&quot;&gt;ko'''a'''vf&lt;/span&gt;)]]&lt;span style=&quot;color:red&quot;&gt;❤[[User talk:Koavf|T]]☮[[Special:Contributions/Koavf|C]]☺[[Special:Emailuser/Koavf|M]]☯&lt;/span&gt; 19:22, 21 January 2026 (UTC)
:Delete [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 11:15, 22 January 2026 (UTC)

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== [[Systemic Lupus Erythematosus]] ==
{{archive top|'''Deleted''' - AI-slop with no educational objectives}}
Clearly seems like an ai-generated article and it seems to be out of Wikiversity’s scope. [[User:PieWriter|PieWriter]] ([[User talk:PieWriter|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/PieWriter|contribs]]) 10:08, 11 March 2026 (UTC)

:'''Delete''', copy of Wikipedia article. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 17:28, 27 March 2026 (UTC)
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      <sha1>j2hukibqfeyzz4l5nwhoudvyjlwyx0a</sha1>
    </revision>
  </page>
  <page>
    <title>User:Dc.samizdat/Golden chords of the 120-cell</title>
    <ns>2</ns>
    <id>326765</id>
    <revision>
      <id>2808066</id>
      <parentid>2807971</parentid>
      <timestamp>2026-05-09T14:51:56Z</timestamp>
      <contributor>
        <username>Dc.samizdat</username>
        <id>2856930</id>
      </contributor>
      <comment>/* The 24-cell */</comment>
      <origin>2808066</origin>
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      <format>text/x-wiki</format>
      <text bytes="45704" sha1="tpvhtiwxy1kuclfuh0pp15oujgemcpc" xml:space="preserve">{{align|center|David Brooks Christie}}
{{align|center|dc@samizdat.org}}
{{align|center|Draft in progress}}
{{align|center|January 2026 - April 2026}}

&lt;blockquote&gt;Steinbach discovered the formula for the ratios of diagonal to side in the regular polygons. Fontaine and Hurley extended this result, discovering a formula for the reciprocal of a regular polygon chord derived geometrically from the chord's star polygon. We observe that these findings in plane geometry apply more generally, to polytopes of any dimensionality. Fontaine and Hurley's geometric procedure for finding the reciprocals of the chords of a regular polygon from their star polygons also finds the rotational geodesics of any polytope of any dimensionality.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
== Introduction ==
Steinbach discovered the Diagonal Product Formula and the Golden Fields family of ratios of diagonal to side in the regular polygons. He showed how this family extends beyond the pentagon {5} with its well-known golden bisection proportional to 𝜙, finding that the heptagon {7} has an analogous trisection, the nonagon {9} has an analogous quadrasection, and the hendecagon {11} has an analogous pentasection, an extended family of golden proportions with quasiperiodic properties. 

Kappraff and Adamson extended these findings in plane geometry to a theory of Generalized Fibonacci Sequences, showing that the Golden Fields not only do not end with the hendecagon, they form an infinite number of periodic trajectories when operated on by the Mandelbrot operator. They found a relation between the edges of star polygons and dynamical systems in the state of chaos, revealing a connection between chaos theory, number, and rotations in Coxeter Euclidean geometry. 

Fontaine and Hurley examined Steinbach's finding that the length of each chord of a regular polygon is both the product of two chords and the sum of a set of smaller chords, so that in rotations to add is to multiply. They illustrated Steinbach's sets of additive chords lying parallel to each other in the plane (pointing in the same direction), and by applying Steinbach's formula more generally they found another summation relation of signed parallel chords (pointing in opposite directions) which relates each chord length to its reciprocal, and relates the summation to a distinct star polygon rotation. 

We examine these remarkable findings (which stem from study of the chords of humble regular polygons) in higher-dimensional spaces, specifically in the chords, polygons and rotations of the [[120-cell]], the largest four-dimensional regular convex polytope.

== Visualizing the 120-cell ==
{| class=&quot;wikitable floatright&quot; width=&quot;400&quot;
|style=&quot;vertical-align:top&quot;|[[File:120-cell.gif|200px]]&lt;br&gt;Orthographic projection of the 600-point 120-cell &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\{5,3,3\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; performing a [[W:SO(4)#Geometry of 4D rotations|simple rotation]].{{Sfn|Hise|2011|loc=File:120-cell.gif|ps=; &quot;Created by Jason Hise with Maya and Macromedia Fireworks. A 3D projection of a 120-cell performing a [[W:SO(4)#Geometry of 4D rotations|simple rotation]].&quot;}} In this simplified rendering only the 120-cell's own edges are shown; its 29 interior chords are not rendered. Therefore even though it is translucent, only its outer surface is visible. The complex interior parts of the 120-cell, all its inscribed 5-cells, 16-cells, 8-cells, 24-cells, 600-cells and its much larger inventory of polyhedra, are completely invisible in this view, as none of their edges are rendered at all.
|style=&quot;vertical-align:top&quot;|[[File:Ortho solid 016-uniform polychoron p33-t0.png|200px]]&lt;br&gt;Orthographic projection of the 600-point [[W:Great grand stellated 120-cell|great grand stellated 120-cell]] &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\{\tfrac{5}{2},3,3\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;.{{Sfn|Ruen: Great grand stellated 120-cell|2007}} The 120-cell is its convex hull. The projection to the left renders only the 120-cell's shortest chord, its 1200 edges. The projection above also renders only one of the 120-cell's 30 chords, the edges of its 120 inscribed regular 5-cells. The 120-cell itself (the convex hull) is invisible in this view, as its edges are not rendered.
|}

[[120-cell#Geometry|The 120-cell is the maximally complex regular 4-polytope]], containing inscribed instances of every regular 1-, 2-, 3-, and 4-polytope, except the regular polygons of more than {15} sides. 

The 120-cell is the convex hull of a regular [[120-cell#Relationships among interior polytopes|compound of each of the 6 regular convex 4-polytopes]]. They are the [[5-cell|5-point (5-cell) 4-simplex]], the [[16-cell|8-point (16-cell) 4-orthoplex]], the [[W:Tesseract|16-point (8-cell) tesseract]], the [[24-cell|24-point (24-cell)]], the [[600-cell|120-point (600-cell)]], and the [[120-cell|600-point (120-cell)]]. The 120-cell is the convex hull of a compound of 120 disjoint regular 5-cells, of 75 disjoint 16-cells, of 25 disjoint 24-cells, and of 5 disjoint 600-cells.

The 120-cell contains an even larger inventory of irregular polytopes, created by the intersection of multiple instances of these component regular 4-polytopes. Many are quite unexpected, because they do not occur as components of any regular polytope smaller than the 120-cell. As just one example among the [[120-cell#Concentric hulls|sections of the 120-cell]], there is an irregular 24-point polyhedron with 16 triangle faces and 4 nonagon {9} faces.{{Sfn|Moxness|}}

Most renderings of the 120-cell, like the rotating projection here, only illustrate its outer surface, which is a honeycomb of face-bonded dodecahedral cells. Only the objects in its 3-dimensional surface are rendered, namely the 120 dodecahedra, their pentagon faces, and their edges. Although the 120-cell has chords of 30 distinct lengths, in this kind of simplified rendering only the 120-cell's own edges (its shortest chord) are shown. Its 29 interior chords, the edges of objects in the interior of the 120-cell, are not rendered, so interior objects are not visible at all.

Visualizing the complete interior of the 600-vertex 120-cell in a single image is impractical because of its complexity. Only four 120-cell edges are incident at each vertex, but [[120-cell#Chords|600 chords (of all 30 lengths)]] are incident at ''each'' vertex.

== Compounds in the 120-cell ==
The 8-point (16-cell), not the 5-point (5-cell), is the smallest building block; it compounds to every larger regular 4-polytope. The 5-point (5-cell) does compound to the 600-point (120-cell), but it does not fit into any smaller regular 4-polytope. 

The 8-point (16-cell) compounds by 2 in the 16-point (8-cell), and by 3 in the 24-point (24-cell). The 16-point (8-cell) compounds in the 24-point (24-cell) by 3 non-disjoint instances of itself, with each of the 24 vertices shared by two 16-point (8-cells). The 24-point (24-cell) compounds by 5 disjoint instances of itself in the 120-point (600-cell), and the 120-point (600-cell) compounds by 5 disjoint instances of itself in the 600-point (120-cell).

The 24-point (24-cell) also compounds by &lt;math&gt;5^2&lt;/math&gt; non-disjoint instances of itself in the 120-point (600-cell); it compounds in 5 disjoint instances of itself, 10 (not 5) different ways. Whichever set of 5 disjoint 24-point (24-cells) are assembled, the resulting 120-point (600-cell) contains 25 distinct 24-point (24-cells), not just 5 (or 10). This implies that 15 disjoint 8-point (16-cells) will construct a 120-point (600-cell), which will contain 75 distinct 8-point (16-cells). 

The 600-point (120-cell) is 5 disjoint 120-point (600-cells), just 2 different ways (not 5 or 10 ways), so it is 10 distinct 120-point (600-cells). This implies that the 8-point (16-cell) compounds by 3 times &lt;math&gt;5^2&lt;/math&gt; (75) disjoint instances of itself in the 600-point (120-cell), which contains &lt;math&gt;3^2&lt;/math&gt; times  &lt;math&gt;5^2&lt;/math&gt; (225) distinct instances of the 24-point (24-cell), and  &lt;math&gt;3^3&lt;/math&gt; times &lt;math&gt;5^2&lt;/math&gt; (675) distinct instances of the 8-point (16-cell). 

These facts were discovered painstakingly by various researchers, and no one has found a general rule governing subsumption relations among regular polytopes. The reasons for some of their numeric incidence relations are far from obvious. [[W:Pieter Hendrik Schoute|Schoute]] was the first to see that the 120-point (600-cell) is a compound of 5 24-point (24-cells) ''10 different ways'', and after he saw it a hundred years lapsed until Denney, Hooker, Johnson, Robinson, Butler &amp; Claiborne proved his result, and showed why.{{Sfn|Denney, Hooker, Johnson, Robinson, Butler &amp; Claiborne|2020|loc=''The geometry of H4 polytopes''}}

So much for the compounds of 16-cells. The 120-cell is also the convex hull of the compound of 120 disjoint regular 5-cells. That stellated compound (without its convex hull of 120-cell edges) is the [[w:Great_grand_stellated_120-cell|great grand stellated 120-cell]] illustrated above, the final regular [[W:Stellation|stellation]] of the 120-cell, and the only [[W:Schläfli-Hess polychoron|regular star 4-polytope]] to have the 120-cell for its convex hull. The edges of the great grand stellated 120-cell are &lt;math&gt;\phi^6&lt;/math&gt; as long as those of its 120-cell [[W:List of polyhedral stellations#Stellation process|stellation core]] deep inside.

The compound of 120 disjoint 5-point (5-cells) can be seen to be equivalent to the compound of 5 disjoint 120-point (600-cells), as follows. Beginning with a single 120-point (600-cell), expand each vertex into a regular 5-cell, by adding 4 new equidistant vertices, such that the 5 vertices form a regular 5-cell inscribed in the 3-sphere. The 120 5-cells are disjoint, and the 600 vertices form 5 disjoint 120-point (600-cells): a 120-cell.

== Thirty distinguished distances ==
The 30 numbers listed in the table are all-important in Euclidean geometry. A case can be made on symmetry grounds that their squares are the 30 most important numbers between 0 and 4. The 30 rows of the table are the 30 distinct [[120-cell#Geodesic rectangles|chord lengths of the unit-radius 120-cell]], the largest regular convex 4-polytope. Since the 120-cell subsumes all smaller regular polytopes, its 30 chords are the complete chord set of all the regular polytopes that can be constructed in the first four dimensions of Euclidean space, except for regular polygons of more than 15 sides.

{| class=&quot;wikitable&quot; style=&quot;white-space:nowrap;text-align:center&quot;
!rowspan=2|&lt;math&gt;c_t&lt;/math&gt;
!rowspan=2|arc
!rowspan=2|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{n}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
!rowspan=2|&lt;math&gt;\left\{p\right\}&lt;/math&gt;
!rowspan=2|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;m\left\{\frac{k}{d}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
!rowspan=2|Steinbach roots
!colspan=7|Chord lengths of the unit 120-cell
|-
!colspan=5|unit-radius length &lt;math&gt;c_t&lt;/math&gt;
!colspan=2|unit-edge length &lt;math&gt;c_t/c_1&lt;/math&gt;&lt;br&gt;in 120-cell of radius &lt;math&gt;c_8=\sqrt{2}\phi^2&lt;/math&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{1,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;15.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{30\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{30\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{4,1}-c_{2,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{7-3 \sqrt{5}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.270091&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\sqrt{2} \phi ^2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2 \phi ^4}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.072949}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{2,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;25.2{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{2}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2 \left\{15\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \left(c_{18,1}-c_{4,1}\right)&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{3-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.437016&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\sqrt{2} \phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2 \phi ^2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.190983}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi &lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.61803&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{3,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;36{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{3}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{10\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;3 \left\{\frac{10}{3}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \left(\sqrt{5}-1\right) c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \left(\sqrt{5}-1\right)&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.618034&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{\phi ^2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.381966}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2} \phi &lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2.28825&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{4,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;41.4{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{60}{7}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{c_{8,1}}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.707107&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2.61803&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{5,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;44.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{4}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2 \left\{\frac{15}{2}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3} c_{2,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{9-3 \sqrt{5}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.756934&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}}}{\phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2 \phi ^2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.572949}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3} \phi &lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2.80252&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{6,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;49.1{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{120}{17}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{5-\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{5-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.831254&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\frac{1}{\phi }}}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{\sqrt{5}}{2 \phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.690983}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\phi ^3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;3.07768&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{7,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;56.0{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{20}{3}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}-\frac{1}{\phi }} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}-\frac{2}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.93913&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{\frac{\psi }{\phi }}}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{\psi }{2 \phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.881966}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\psi  \phi ^3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;3.47709&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;60{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{5}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{6\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{6\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;3.70246&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{9,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;66.1{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{40}{7}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}-\frac{1}{2 \phi }} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}-\frac{1}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.09132&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{\frac{\chi }{\phi }}}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{\chi }{2 \phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.19098}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\chi  \phi ^3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;4.04057&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{10,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;69.8{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{60}{11}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi  c_{4,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1+\sqrt{5}}{2 \sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.14412&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\phi }{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{\phi ^2}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.30902}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^3&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;4.23607&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{11,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;72{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{6}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{5\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{5\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\frac{1}{\phi }} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\frac{2}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.17557&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3-\phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3-\phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.38197}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2} \sqrt{3-\phi } \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;4.3525&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{12,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;75.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{24}{5}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.22474&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;4.53457&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{13,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;81.1{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{60}{13}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{9-\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{9-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.30038&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{9-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{4} \left(9-\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.69098}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2} \left(9-\sqrt{5}\right)} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;4.8146&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{14,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;84.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{40}{9}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\phi } c_{8,1}}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{1+\sqrt{5}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.345&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\phi }}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{\sqrt{5} \phi }{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.80902}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\phi ^5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;4.9798&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{15,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;90.0{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{7}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{4\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{4\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2 c_{4,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.41421&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2 \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;5.23607&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{16,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;95.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{120}{29}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{11-\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{11-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.4802&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{11-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{4} \left(11-\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.19098}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2} \left(11-\sqrt{5}\right)} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;5.48037&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{17,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;98.9{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{120}{31}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{7+\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{7+\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.51954&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{7+\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{4} \left(7+\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.30902}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\psi  \phi ^5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;5.62605&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{18,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;104.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{8}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{15}{4}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.58114&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{5} \sqrt{\phi ^4}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;5.8541&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{19,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;108.0{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{9}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{10}{3}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{3,1}+c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \left(1+\sqrt{5}\right)&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.61803&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi &lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1+\phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.61803}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2} \phi ^3&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;5.9907&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{20,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;110.2{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{120}{7}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{13-\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{13-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.64042&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{13-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{4} \left(13-\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.69098}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2 \sqrt{8-\phi ^2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.07359&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{21,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;113.9{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{60}{19}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}+\frac{1}{1+\sqrt{5}}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}+\frac{1}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.67601&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}+\frac{1}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}+\frac{1}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.80902}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2 \sqrt{8-\frac{\chi }{\phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.20537&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{22,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;120{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{10}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{3\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{3\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.73205&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{6} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.41285&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{23,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;124.0{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{120}{41}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{\phi }+\frac{5}{2}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}+\frac{2}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.7658&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{4-\frac{\psi }{2 \phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{4-\frac{\psi }{2 \phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.11803}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\chi  \phi ^5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.53779&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{24,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;130.9{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{20}{7}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{11+\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{11+\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.81907&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{11+\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{4} \left(11+\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.30902}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2 \sqrt{8-\frac{\sqrt{5}}{\phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.73503&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{25,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;135.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{11}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{11}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{7+3 \sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{7+3 \sqrt{5}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.85123&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\phi ^2}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{\phi ^4}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.42705}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^4&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.8541&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{26,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;138.6{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{12}{5}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{7}{2}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{7}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.87083&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{7}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{7}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{7} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.92667&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{27,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;144{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{12}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{5}{2}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2} \left(5+\sqrt{5}\right)} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2} \left(5+\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.90211&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\phi +2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2+\phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.61803}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2 \sqrt{2 \phi +4}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;7.0425&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{28,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;154.8{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{13}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{13}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{13+\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{13+\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.95167&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{13+\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{4} \left(13+\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.80902}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2 \sqrt{8-\frac{1}{\phi ^2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;7.22598&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{29,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;164.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{14}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{15}{7}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi  c_{12,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{\frac{3}{2}} \left(1+\sqrt{5}\right)&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.98168&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}} \phi &lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3 \phi ^2}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.92705}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3} \phi ^3&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;7.33708&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{30,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;180{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{15}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{2\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{2\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2 c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2.&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{4}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{4.}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2 \sqrt{2} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;7.40492&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|rowspan=4 colspan=6|
|rowspan=4 colspan=4|
&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; is the golden ratio:&lt;br&gt;
&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2-\phi -1=0&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;&lt;br&gt;
&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\phi }+1=\phi&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;, and: &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi+1=\phi^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;&lt;br&gt;
&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\phi }::1::\phi ::\phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;&lt;br&gt;
&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1/\phi&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; and &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; are the golden sections of &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;:&lt;br&gt;
&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi +\frac{1}{\phi }=\sqrt{5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|colspan=2|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi = (\sqrt{5} + 1)/2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.618034&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|colspan=2|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\chi = (3\sqrt{5} + 1)/2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;3.854102&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|colspan=2|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\psi = (3\sqrt{5} - 1)/2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2.854102&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|colspan=2|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\psi = 11/\chi = 22/(3\sqrt{5} + 1)&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2.854102&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|}

...

== The 8-point regular polytopes ==
In 2-space we have the regular 8-point octagon, in 3-space the regular 8-point cube, and in 4-space the regular 8-point [[W:16-cell|16-cell]].

A planar octagon with rigid edges of unit length has chords of length:

:&lt;math&gt;r_1=1,r_2=\sqrt{2+\sqrt{2}} \approx 1.84776,r_3=1+\sqrt{2} \approx 2.41421,r_4=\sqrt{4 + \sqrt{8}} \approx 2.61313&lt;/math&gt;

The chord ratio &lt;math&gt;r_3=1+\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt; is a geometrical proportion, the [[W:Silver ratio|silver ratio]]. Fontaine and Hurley's procedure for obtaining the reciprocal of a chord tells us that:

:&lt;math&gt;r_3-r_1-r_1=1/r_3 \approx 0.41421&lt;/math&gt;

Notice that &lt;math&gt;1/r_3=\sqrt{2}-1=r_3-2&lt;/math&gt;.

If we embed this planar octagon in 3-space, we can make it skew, repositioning its vertices so that each is one unit-edge length distant from three others instead of two others, so we obtain a unit-edge cube with chords of length:

:&lt;math&gt;r_1=1, r_2=\sqrt{2}, r_3=\sqrt{3}, r_4=\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;

If we embed this cube in 4-space, we can skew it some more, repositioning its vertices so that each is one unit-edge length distant from six others instead of three others, so we obtain a unit-edge 4-polytope with chords of length:

:&lt;math&gt;r_1=1,r_2=1,r_3=1,r_4=\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;

All of its chords except its long diameters are the same unit length as its edge. In fact they are its 24 edges, and it is a 16-cell of radius &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1/\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;.

[[File:Regular_polygon_8_annotated.svg|thumb|Cell-first orthogonal projection of a 16-cell. Only its edges are shown; its long diameter chords are not drawn. None of the 24 edges lie in the view plane.]]

The [[16-cell]] is the [[W:Regular convex 4-polytope|regular convex 4-polytope]] with [[W:Schläfli symbol|Schläfli symbol]] {3,3,4}. It has 8 vertices, 24 edges, 32 equilateral triangle faces, and 16 regular tetrahedron cells. It is the [[16-cell#Octahedral dipyramid|four-dimensional analogue of the octahedron]], and each of its four orthogonal central hyperplanes is an octahedron.

The only planar regular polygons found in the 16-cell are face triangles and central plane squares, but the 16-cell also contains a regular skew octagon, its [[W:Petrie polygon|Petrie polygon]]. The chords of this regular octagon, which lies skew in 4-space, are those given above for the 16-cell, as opposed to those for the cube or the regular octagon in the plane. The 16-cell has 3 such Petrie octagons, which share the same 8 vertices but have disjoint sets of 8 edges each.

The regular octad has higher symmetry in 4-space than it does in 2-space. The 16-cell is the 4-orthoplex, the simplest regular 4-polytope after the [[5-cell|4-simplex]]. All the larger regular 4-polytopes, including the 120-cell, are compounds of the 16-cell. The regular octagon exhibits this high symmetry only when embedded in 4-space at the vertices of the 16-cell.

The 16-cell constitutes an [[W:Orthonormal basis|orthonormal basis]] for the choice of a 4-dimensional Cartesian reference frame, because its vertices define four orthogonal axes. The eight vertices of a unit-radius 16-cell are (±1, 0, 0, 0), (0, ±1, 0, 0), (0, 0, ±1, 0), (0, 0, 0, ±1). All vertices are connected by &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; edges except opposite pairs. In this convenient unit-radius 4-coordinate system, the original planar octagon we started with had chords of length:

:&lt;math&gt;r_1=\sqrt{2},r_2=\sqrt{2(2+\sqrt{2})} \approx 2.61313,r_3=2+\sqrt{2} \approx 3.41421,r_4=2 \sqrt{2+\sqrt{2}} \approx 3.69552&lt;/math&gt;

none of which chords occur in a 16-cell or 120-cell except &lt;math&gt;r_1=\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;. 

In the unit-radius 120-cell, the great square edge chord &lt;math&gt;c_{15} = \sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt; occurs in 675 distinct (75 disjoint) 16-cells. The vertex coordinates of the 16-cell form 6 central squares lying in 6 pairwise [[W:Orthogonal|orthogonal]] coordinate planes. Great squares in ''opposite'' planes that do not share an axis (e.g. in the ''xy'' and ''wz'' planes) are completely disjoint (they do not intersect at any vertices). These planes are [[W:Completely orthogonal|completely orthogonal]].{{Efn|name=Six orthogonal planes of the Cartesian basis}}

[[W:Rotations in 4-dimensional Euclidean space|Rotations in 4-dimensional Euclidean space]] can be seen as the composition of two 2-dimensional rotations in completely orthogonal planes. The general rotation in 4-space is a double rotation in pairs of completely orthogonal planes. The two completely orthogonal planes are called invariant rotation planes, because all points in the plane rotate on circles that remain in the plane, even as the whole plane tilts sideways (like a coin flipping) into another plane. The two completely orthogonal rotations of each plane (like a wheel, and like a coin flipping) are simultaneous but independent, in that they are not geometrically constrained to turn at the same rate. However, the most circular kind of rotation (as opposed to an elliptical double rotation of a rigid spherical object) occurs when the completely orthogonal planes do rotate through the same angle in the same time interval. Such equi-angled double rotations are called [[w:SO(4)#Isoclinic_rotations|isoclinic]], also [[w:William_Kingdon_Clifford|Clifford]] displacements.

The 16-cell is the simplest possible frame in which to [[16-cell#Rotations|observe 4-dimensional rotations]] because its characteristic isoclinic rotations feature a single pair of invariant rotation planes. In the 16-cell an isoclinic rotation by 90° in any pair of invariant completely orthogonal square central planes takes every square central plane to its completely orthogonal square central plane, and takes every vertex to its antipodal vertex 180° degrees away. All the vertices move at once, displaced 180° in 8 orthogonal directions, and the rigid 16-cell assumes a new orientation in 4-space. The trajectory of each vertex is a one-eighth segment of its [[W:Geodesic|geodesic]] orbit. Its entire orbit traces a circular helix in 4-space, and also traces a great circle in one of the two completely orthogonal invariant rotation planes, as they tilt sideways into each other's plane. When the isoclinic rotation is continued in the same rotational direction through an additional 90°, each vertex is again displaced 180° to its antipodal position, but from the new orientation where the vertex is on the opposite side of the 16-cell departing in the opposite direction. In the course of a 720° isoclinic rotation each vertex departs from all 8 vertex positions just once, and returns to its original position.

== Hypercubes ==
The long diameter of the unit-edge [[W:Hypercube|hypercube]] of dimension &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;n&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; is &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{n}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;, so the unit-edge [[w:Tesseract|4-hypercube, the 16-point (8-cell) tesseract,]] has chords:
:&lt;math&gt;r_1=\sqrt{1},r_2=\sqrt{2},r_3=\sqrt{3},r_4=\sqrt{4}&lt;/math&gt;
Uniquely in its 4-dimensional case, the hypercube's edge length equals its radius, like the hexagon. We call such polytopes ''radially equilateral'', because they can be constructed from equilateral triangles which meet at their center, each contributing two radii and an edge. The cuboctahedron and the 24-cell are also radially equilateral.

The [[W:Tesseract|tesseract]] is the [[W:Regular convex 4-polytope|regular convex 4-polytope]] with [[W:Schläfli symbol|Schläfli symbol]] {4,3,3}. It has 16 vertices, 32 edges, 24 square faces, and 8 cube cells. It is the four-dimensional analogue of the cube.

The tesseract is the [[W:Dual polytope|dual polytope]] of the 16-cell. They have the same Petrie polygon, the regular octagon, but the tesseract contains 2 disjoint instances and 4 distinct instances of the skew octagon. We can construct the tesseract the way we constructed the 16-cell, by skewing a planar octagon's edges so they become edges of the 4-polytope. Because the tesseract has 16 vertices we will need two planar octagons, and to start we must embedded them in 4-space as completely orthogonal planes that intersect at only one point, their common center. Because the tesseract is radially equilateral (unlike the 16-cell), to build a unit-radius tesseract we start with our original octagon of unit-edge length, rather than the octagon of edge length &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; that we needed to build the unit-radius 16-cell.

For our tesseract construction we skew each planar octagon into a cube, so we have a compound of two completely orthogonal cubes. Provided the planes were completely orthogonal in 4-space and we skewed them both the same way, the 16 vertices will be the vertices of a tesseract with half of its 32 edges missing.

The 16-point tesseract is the convex hull of a compound of two 8-point 16-cells, in exact dimensional analogy to the way the 8-point cube is the convex hull of a [[W:Stellated octahedron|compound of two regular 4-point tetrahedra]]. The [[W:Demihypercube|demihypercubes]] occupy alternate vertices of the hypercubes. The diagonals of the square faces of the unit-radius tesseract are the &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; edges of two unit-radius 16-cells, which are also the edges of the square central planes.

Because the tesseract contains two 16-cells in alternate positions it has two sets of 6 orthogonal square central planes. Two angles are required to specify the relationship between two planes in 4-space. Pairs of planes within each 16-cell are 90° apart in one angle, and either 0° or 90° apart in the other angle. They are 90° apart in both angles if and only if they are completely orthogonal planes, 90° apart by isoclinic rotation, with no vertices in common and their corresponding vertices 180° apart. Otherwise they are 0° apart in one of the angles, 90° apart by simple rotation with their corresponding vertices 90° apart, and they intersect in one axis and lie in a common 3-dimensional hyperplane.{{Efn|A double rotation in which one of the two angles of rotation is 0°, so that one of the completely orthogonal invariant planes does not rotate, is called a simple rotation. Ordinary rotations observed in a 3-dimensional space are simple rotations.}}

A pair of square central planes from alternate 16-cells are 60° apart by isoclinic rotation, with their corresponding vertices 120° apart. The planes are not orthogonal or parallel, so they intersect in a line somewhere, but they have no vertices in common, they have no 3-dimensional hyperplane in common, and they cannot reach each other by simple rotation. Such pairs of objects are called [[W:Clifford parallel|Clifford parallel]] because all their corresponding pairs of vertices are the same distance apart, although they are not parallel in the usual sense, because they have a common center. Not only the alternate 16-cells' corresponding square central planes, but also the 16-cells themselves, are Clifford parallel objects.

We can rotate the tesseract isoclinically the way we rotated the 16-cell, by 90° in two completely orthogonal invariant square central planes, with the same effect on both alternate 16-cells. In the course of a 720° isoclinic rotation in invariant square central planes each vertex departs from all 8 vertex positions of its 16-cell just once and returns to its original position, but it does not visit the vertex positions of the other 16-cell. The skew octagon geodesic orbits of the 16 vertices are disjoint circular helixes, and those 16 circular helixes are Clifford parallel objects.

== The 24-cell ==
In 2-space we have the radially equilateral 6-point hexagon. In 3-space we have the radially equilateral 12-point cuboctahedron, with 4 hexagonal central planes. In 4-space we have the radially equilateral 24-point 24-cell, with 4 cuboctahedral central hyperplanes and 16 hexagonal central planes.

Great hexagons are a rounder choice than great squares for the invariant rotation planes in which to rotate a 4-polytope isoclinically. The complete hexagonal isoclinic revolution requires 720° like the complete square isoclinic revolution, but it is completed in 6 chordal steps of 120° each rather than 8 chordal steps of 180° each.

...

== The 600-cell ==

...

== Finally the 120-cell ==

...

== Conclusions ==

Fontaine and Hurley's discovery is more than a formula for the reciprocal of a regular ''n''-polygon diagonal. It also yields the discrete sequence of isocline chords of the distinct isoclinic rotation characteristic of a ''d''-dimensional regular polytope. The characteristic rotational chord sequence of the ''d''-polytope can be represented geometrically in two dimensions on a distinct star polygon, but it lies on a geodesic circle through ''d''-dimensional space. Fontaine and Hurley discovered the geodesic topology of polytopes generally. Their procedure will reveal the geodesics of arbitrary non-uniform polytopes, since it can be applied to a polytope of any dimensionality and irregularity, by first fitting the polytope to the smallest regular polygon whose chords include its chords.

Fontaine and Hurley's discovery of a chordal formula for isoclinic rotations closes the circuit on Kappraff and Adamson's discovery of a rotational connection between dynamical systems, Steinbach's golden fields, and Coxeter's Euclidean geometry of ''n'' dimensions. Application of the Fontaine and Hurley procedure in higher-dimensional spaces demonstrates why the connection exists: because polytope sequences generally, from Steinbach's golden polygon chord sequences, to chord sequences in isoclinic rotation helixes, to subsumption relations in the sequence of regular 4-polytopes, arise as expressions of the reflections and rotations of distinct Coxeter symmetry groups, when those various groups interact.

== Appendix: Sequence of regular 4-polytopes ==
{{Regular convex 4-polytopes|wiki=W:|columns=7}}

== Notes ==
{{Notelist}}

== Citations ==
{{Reflist}}

== References ==
{{Refbegin}}
* {{Cite journal | last=Steinbach | first=Peter | year=1997 | title=Golden fields: A case for the Heptagon | journal=Mathematics Magazine | volume=70 | issue=Feb 1997 | pages=22–31 | doi=10.1080/0025570X.1997.11996494 | jstor=2691048 | ref={{SfnRef|Steinbach|1997}} }}
* {{Cite journal | last=Steinbach | first=Peter | year=2000 | title=Sections Beyond Golden| journal=Bridges: Mathematical Connections in Art, Music and Science | issue=2000 | pages=35-44 | url=https://archive.bridgesmathart.org/2000/bridges2000-35.pdf | ref={{SfnRef|Steinbach|2000}}}}
* {{Cite journal | last1=Kappraff | first1=Jay | last2=Jablan | first2=Slavik | last3=Adamson | first3=Gary | last4=Sazdanovich | first4=Radmila | year=2004 | title=Golden Fields, Generalized Fibonacci Sequences, and Chaotic Matrices | journal=Forma | volume=19 | pages=367-387 | url=https://archive.bridgesmathart.org/2005/bridges2005-369.pdf | ref={{SfnRef|Kappraff, Jablan, Adamson &amp; Sazdanovich|2004}} }}
* {{Cite journal | last1=Kappraff | first1=Jay | last2=Adamson | first2=Gary | year=2004 | title=Polygons and Chaos | journal=Dynamical Systems and Geometric Theories | url=https://archive.bridgesmathart.org/2001/bridges2001-67.pdf | ref={{SfnRef|Kappraff &amp; Adamson|2004}} }}
* {{Cite journal | last1=Fontaine | first1=Anne | last2=Hurley | first2=Susan | year=2006 | title=Proof by Picture: Products and Reciprocals of Diagonal Length Ratios in the Regular Polygon | journal=Forum Geometricorum | volume=6 | pages=97-101 | url=https://scispace.com/pdf/proof-by-picture-products-and-reciprocals-of-diagonal-length-1aian8mgp9.pdf }}
{{Refend}}</text>
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      <id>2808069</id>
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      <text bytes="45690" sha1="5g0x7vbvsksbriwcj4719c8kvi6bq2h" xml:space="preserve">{{align|center|David Brooks Christie}}
{{align|center|dc@samizdat.org}}
{{align|center|Draft in progress}}
{{align|center|January 2026 - April 2026}}

&lt;blockquote&gt;Steinbach discovered the formula for the ratios of diagonal to side in the regular polygons. Fontaine and Hurley extended this result, discovering a formula for the reciprocal of a regular polygon chord derived geometrically from the chord's star polygon. We observe that these findings in plane geometry apply more generally, to polytopes of any dimensionality. Fontaine and Hurley's geometric procedure for finding the reciprocals of the chords of a regular polygon from their star polygons also finds the rotational geodesics of any polytope of any dimensionality.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
== Introduction ==
Steinbach discovered the Diagonal Product Formula and the Golden Fields family of ratios of diagonal to side in the regular polygons. He showed how this family extends beyond the pentagon {5} with its well-known golden bisection proportional to 𝜙, finding that the heptagon {7} has an analogous trisection, the nonagon {9} has an analogous quadrasection, and the hendecagon {11} has an analogous pentasection, an extended family of golden proportions with quasiperiodic properties. 

Kappraff and Adamson extended these findings in plane geometry to a theory of Generalized Fibonacci Sequences, showing that the Golden Fields not only do not end with the hendecagon, they form an infinite number of periodic trajectories when operated on by the Mandelbrot operator. They found a relation between the edges of star polygons and dynamical systems in the state of chaos, revealing a connection between chaos theory, number, and rotations in Coxeter Euclidean geometry. 

Fontaine and Hurley examined Steinbach's finding that the length of each chord of a regular polygon is both the product of two chords and the sum of a set of smaller chords, so that in rotations to add is to multiply. They illustrated Steinbach's sets of additive chords lying parallel to each other in the plane (pointing in the same direction), and by applying Steinbach's formula more generally they found another summation relation of signed parallel chords (pointing in opposite directions) which relates each chord length to its reciprocal, and relates the summation to a distinct star polygon rotation. 

We examine these remarkable findings (which stem from study of the chords of humble regular polygons) in higher-dimensional spaces, specifically in the chords, polygons and rotations of the [[120-cell]], the largest four-dimensional regular convex polytope.

== Visualizing the 120-cell ==
{| class=&quot;wikitable floatright&quot; width=&quot;400&quot;
|style=&quot;vertical-align:top&quot;|[[File:120-cell.gif|200px]]&lt;br&gt;Orthographic projection of the 600-point 120-cell &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\{5,3,3\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; performing a [[W:SO(4)#Geometry of 4D rotations|simple rotation]].{{Sfn|Hise|2011|loc=File:120-cell.gif|ps=; &quot;Created by Jason Hise with Maya and Macromedia Fireworks. A 3D projection of a 120-cell performing a [[W:SO(4)#Geometry of 4D rotations|simple rotation]].&quot;}} In this simplified rendering only the 120-cell's own edges are shown; its 29 interior chords are not rendered. Therefore even though it is translucent, only its outer surface is visible. The complex interior parts of the 120-cell, all its inscribed 5-cells, 16-cells, 8-cells, 24-cells, 600-cells and its much larger inventory of polyhedra, are completely invisible in this view, as none of their edges are rendered at all.
|style=&quot;vertical-align:top&quot;|[[File:Ortho solid 016-uniform polychoron p33-t0.png|200px]]&lt;br&gt;Orthographic projection of the 600-point [[W:Great grand stellated 120-cell|great grand stellated 120-cell]] &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\{\tfrac{5}{2},3,3\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;.{{Sfn|Ruen: Great grand stellated 120-cell|2007}} The 120-cell is its convex hull. The projection to the left renders only the 120-cell's shortest chord, its 1200 edges. The projection above also renders only one of the 120-cell's 30 chords, the edges of its 120 inscribed regular 5-cells. The 120-cell itself (the convex hull) is invisible in this view, as its edges are not rendered.
|}

[[120-cell#Geometry|The 120-cell is the maximally complex regular 4-polytope]], containing inscribed instances of every regular 1-, 2-, 3-, and 4-polytope, except the regular polygons of more than {15} sides. 

The 120-cell is the convex hull of a regular [[120-cell#Relationships among interior polytopes|compound of each of the 6 regular convex 4-polytopes]]. They are the [[5-cell|5-point (5-cell) 4-simplex]], the [[16-cell|8-point (16-cell) 4-orthoplex]], the [[W:Tesseract|16-point (8-cell) tesseract]], the [[24-cell|24-point (24-cell)]], the [[600-cell|120-point (600-cell)]], and the [[120-cell|600-point (120-cell)]]. The 120-cell is the convex hull of a compound of 120 disjoint regular 5-cells, of 75 disjoint 16-cells, of 25 disjoint 24-cells, and of 5 disjoint 600-cells.

The 120-cell contains an even larger inventory of irregular polytopes, created by the intersection of multiple instances of these component regular 4-polytopes. Many are quite unexpected, because they do not occur as components of any regular polytope smaller than the 120-cell. As just one example among the [[120-cell#Concentric hulls|sections of the 120-cell]], there is an irregular 24-point polyhedron with 16 triangle faces and 4 nonagon {9} faces.{{Sfn|Moxness|}}

Most renderings of the 120-cell, like the rotating projection here, only illustrate its outer surface, which is a honeycomb of face-bonded dodecahedral cells. Only the objects in its 3-dimensional surface are rendered, namely the 120 dodecahedra, their pentagon faces, and their edges. Although the 120-cell has chords of 30 distinct lengths, in this kind of simplified rendering only the 120-cell's own edges (its shortest chord) are shown. Its 29 interior chords, the edges of objects in the interior of the 120-cell, are not rendered, so interior objects are not visible at all.

Visualizing the complete interior of the 600-vertex 120-cell in a single image is impractical because of its complexity. Only four 120-cell edges are incident at each vertex, but [[120-cell#Chords|600 chords (of all 30 lengths)]] are incident at ''each'' vertex.

== Compounds in the 120-cell ==
The 8-point (16-cell), not the 5-point (5-cell), is the smallest building block; it compounds to every larger regular 4-polytope. The 5-point (5-cell) does compound to the 600-point (120-cell), but it does not fit into any smaller regular 4-polytope. 

The 8-point (16-cell) compounds by 2 in the 16-point (8-cell), and by 3 in the 24-point (24-cell). The 16-point (8-cell) compounds in the 24-point (24-cell) by 3 non-disjoint instances of itself, with each of the 24 vertices shared by two 16-point (8-cells). The 24-point (24-cell) compounds by 5 disjoint instances of itself in the 120-point (600-cell), and the 120-point (600-cell) compounds by 5 disjoint instances of itself in the 600-point (120-cell).

The 24-point (24-cell) also compounds by &lt;math&gt;5^2&lt;/math&gt; non-disjoint instances of itself in the 120-point (600-cell); it compounds in 5 disjoint instances of itself, 10 (not 5) different ways. Whichever set of 5 disjoint 24-point (24-cells) are assembled, the resulting 120-point (600-cell) contains 25 distinct 24-point (24-cells), not just 5 (or 10). This implies that 15 disjoint 8-point (16-cells) will construct a 120-point (600-cell), which will contain 75 distinct 8-point (16-cells). 

The 600-point (120-cell) is 5 disjoint 120-point (600-cells), just 2 different ways (not 5 or 10 ways), so it is 10 distinct 120-point (600-cells). This implies that the 8-point (16-cell) compounds by 3 times &lt;math&gt;5^2&lt;/math&gt; (75) disjoint instances of itself in the 600-point (120-cell), which contains &lt;math&gt;3^2&lt;/math&gt; times  &lt;math&gt;5^2&lt;/math&gt; (225) distinct instances of the 24-point (24-cell), and  &lt;math&gt;3^3&lt;/math&gt; times &lt;math&gt;5^2&lt;/math&gt; (675) distinct instances of the 8-point (16-cell). 

These facts were discovered painstakingly by various researchers, and no one has found a general rule governing subsumption relations among regular polytopes. The reasons for some of their numeric incidence relations are far from obvious. [[W:Pieter Hendrik Schoute|Schoute]] was the first to see that the 120-point (600-cell) is a compound of 5 24-point (24-cells) ''10 different ways'', and after he saw it a hundred years lapsed until Denney, Hooker, Johnson, Robinson, Butler &amp; Claiborne proved his result, and showed why.{{Sfn|Denney, Hooker, Johnson, Robinson, Butler &amp; Claiborne|2020|loc=''The geometry of H4 polytopes''}}

So much for the compounds of 16-cells. The 120-cell is also the convex hull of the compound of 120 disjoint regular 5-cells. That stellated compound (without its convex hull of 120-cell edges) is the [[w:Great_grand_stellated_120-cell|great grand stellated 120-cell]] illustrated above, the final regular [[W:Stellation|stellation]] of the 120-cell, and the only [[W:Schläfli-Hess polychoron|regular star 4-polytope]] to have the 120-cell for its convex hull. The edges of the great grand stellated 120-cell are &lt;math&gt;\phi^6&lt;/math&gt; as long as those of its 120-cell [[W:List of polyhedral stellations#Stellation process|stellation core]] deep inside.

The compound of 120 disjoint 5-point (5-cells) can be seen to be equivalent to the compound of 5 disjoint 120-point (600-cells), as follows. Beginning with a single 120-point (600-cell), expand each vertex into a regular 5-cell, by adding 4 new equidistant vertices, such that the 5 vertices form a regular 5-cell inscribed in the 3-sphere. The 120 5-cells are disjoint, and the 600 vertices form 5 disjoint 120-point (600-cells): a 120-cell.

== Thirty distinguished distances ==
The 30 numbers listed in the table are all-important in Euclidean geometry. A case can be made on symmetry grounds that their squares are the 30 most important numbers between 0 and 4. The 30 rows of the table are the 30 distinct [[120-cell#Geodesic rectangles|chord lengths of the unit-radius 120-cell]], the largest regular convex 4-polytope. Since the 120-cell subsumes all smaller regular polytopes, its 30 chords are the complete chord set of all the regular polytopes that can be constructed in the first four dimensions of Euclidean space, except for regular polygons of more than 15 sides.

{| class=&quot;wikitable&quot; style=&quot;white-space:nowrap;text-align:center&quot;
!rowspan=2|&lt;math&gt;c_t&lt;/math&gt;
!rowspan=2|arc
!rowspan=2|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{n}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
!rowspan=2|&lt;math&gt;\left\{p\right\}&lt;/math&gt;
!rowspan=2|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;m\left\{\frac{k}{d}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
!rowspan=2|Steinbach roots
!colspan=7|Chord lengths of the unit 120-cell
|-
!colspan=5|unit-radius length &lt;math&gt;c_t&lt;/math&gt;
!colspan=2|unit-edge length &lt;math&gt;c_t/c_1&lt;/math&gt;&lt;br&gt;in 120-cell of radius &lt;math&gt;c_8=\sqrt{2}\phi^2&lt;/math&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{1,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;15.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{30\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{30\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{4,1}-c_{2,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{7-3 \sqrt{5}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.270091&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\sqrt{2} \phi ^2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2 \phi ^4}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.072949}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{2,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;25.2{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{2}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2 \left\{15\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \left(c_{18,1}-c_{4,1}\right)&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{3-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.437016&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\sqrt{2} \phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2 \phi ^2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.190983}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi &lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.61803&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{3,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;36{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{3}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{10\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;3 \left\{\frac{10}{3}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \left(\sqrt{5}-1\right) c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \left(\sqrt{5}-1\right)&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.618034&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{\phi ^2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.381966}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2} \phi &lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2.28825&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{4,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;41.4{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{60}{7}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{c_{8,1}}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.707107&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2.61803&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{5,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;44.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{4}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2 \left\{\frac{15}{2}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3} c_{2,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{9-3 \sqrt{5}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.756934&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}}}{\phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2 \phi ^2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.572949}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3} \phi &lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2.80252&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{6,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;49.1{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{120}{17}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{5-\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{5-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.831254&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\frac{1}{\phi }}}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{\sqrt{5}}{2 \phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.690983}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\phi ^3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;3.07768&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{7,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;56.0{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{20}{3}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}-\frac{1}{\phi }} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}-\frac{2}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.93913&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{\frac{\psi }{\phi }}}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{\psi }{2 \phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.881966}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\psi  \phi ^3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;3.47709&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;60{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{5}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{6\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{6\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;3.70246&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{9,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;66.1{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{40}{7}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}-\frac{1}{2 \phi }} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}-\frac{1}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.09132&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{\frac{\chi }{\phi }}}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{\chi }{2 \phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.19098}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\chi  \phi ^3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;4.04057&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{10,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;69.8{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{60}{11}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi  c_{4,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1+\sqrt{5}}{2 \sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.14412&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\phi }{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{\phi ^2}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.30902}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^3&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;4.23607&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{11,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;72{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{6}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{5\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{5\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\frac{1}{\phi }} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\frac{2}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.17557&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3-\phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3-\phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.38197}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2} \sqrt{3-\phi } \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;4.3525&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{12,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;75.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{24}{5}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.22474&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;4.53457&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{13,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;81.1{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{60}{13}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{9-\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{9-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.30038&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{9-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{4} \left(9-\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.69098}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2} \left(9-\sqrt{5}\right)} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;4.8146&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{14,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;84.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{40}{9}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\phi } c_{8,1}}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{1+\sqrt{5}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.345&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\phi }}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{\sqrt{5} \phi }{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.80902}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\phi ^5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;4.9798&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{15,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;90.0{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{7}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{4\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{4\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2 c_{4,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.41421&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2 \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;5.23607&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{16,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;95.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{120}{29}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{11-\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{11-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.4802&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{11-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{4} \left(11-\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.19098}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2} \left(11-\sqrt{5}\right)} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;5.48037&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{17,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;98.9{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{120}{31}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{7+\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{7+\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.51954&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{7+\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{4} \left(7+\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.30902}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\psi  \phi ^5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;5.62605&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{18,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;104.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{8}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{15}{4}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.58114&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{5} \sqrt{\phi ^4}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;5.8541&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{19,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;108.0{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{9}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{10}{3}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{3,1}+c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \left(1+\sqrt{5}\right)&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.61803&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi &lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1+\phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.61803}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2} \phi ^3&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;5.9907&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{20,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;110.2{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{120}{7}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{13-\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{13-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.64042&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{13-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{4} \left(13-\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.69098}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2 \sqrt{8-\phi ^2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.07359&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{21,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;113.9{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{60}{19}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}+\frac{1}{1+\sqrt{5}}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}+\frac{1}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.67601&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}+\frac{1}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}+\frac{1}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.80902}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2 \sqrt{8-\frac{\chi }{\phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.20537&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{22,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;120{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{10}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{3\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{3\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.73205&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{6} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.41285&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{23,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;124.0{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{120}{41}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{\phi }+\frac{5}{2}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}+\frac{2}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.7658&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{4-\frac{\psi }{2 \phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{4-\frac{\psi }{2 \phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.11803}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\chi  \phi ^5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.53779&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{24,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;130.9{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{20}{7}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{11+\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{11+\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.81907&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{11+\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{4} \left(11+\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.30902}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2 \sqrt{8-\frac{\sqrt{5}}{\phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.73503&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{25,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;135.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{11}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{11}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{7+3 \sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{7+3 \sqrt{5}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.85123&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\phi ^2}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{\phi ^4}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.42705}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^4&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.8541&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{26,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;138.6{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{12}{5}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{7}{2}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{7}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.87083&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{7}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{7}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{7} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.92667&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{27,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;144{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{12}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{5}{2}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2} \left(5+\sqrt{5}\right)} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2} \left(5+\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.90211&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\phi +2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2+\phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.61803}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2 \sqrt{2 \phi +4}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;7.0425&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{28,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;154.8{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{13}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{13}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{13+\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{13+\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.95167&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{13+\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{4} \left(13+\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.80902}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2 \sqrt{8-\frac{1}{\phi ^2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;7.22598&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{29,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;164.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{14}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{15}{7}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi  c_{12,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{\frac{3}{2}} \left(1+\sqrt{5}\right)&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.98168&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}} \phi &lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3 \phi ^2}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.92705}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3} \phi ^3&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;7.33708&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{30,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;180{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{15}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{2\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{2\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2 c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2.&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{4}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{4.}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2 \sqrt{2} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;7.40492&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|rowspan=4 colspan=6|
|rowspan=4 colspan=4|
&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; is the golden ratio:&lt;br&gt;
&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2-\phi -1=0&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;&lt;br&gt;
&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\phi }+1=\phi&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;, and: &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi+1=\phi^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;&lt;br&gt;
&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\phi }::1::\phi ::\phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;&lt;br&gt;
&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1/\phi&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; and &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; are the golden sections of &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;:&lt;br&gt;
&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi +\frac{1}{\phi }=\sqrt{5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|colspan=2|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi = (\sqrt{5} + 1)/2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.618034&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|colspan=2|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\chi = (3\sqrt{5} + 1)/2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;3.854102&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|colspan=2|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\psi = (3\sqrt{5} - 1)/2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2.854102&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|colspan=2|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\psi = 11/\chi = 22/(3\sqrt{5} + 1)&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2.854102&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|}

...

== The 8-point regular polytopes ==
In 2-space we have the regular 8-point octagon, in 3-space the regular 8-point cube, and in 4-space the regular 8-point [[W:16-cell|16-cell]].

A planar octagon with rigid edges of unit length has chords of length:

:&lt;math&gt;r_1=1,r_2=\sqrt{2+\sqrt{2}} \approx 1.84776,r_3=1+\sqrt{2} \approx 2.41421,r_4=\sqrt{4 + \sqrt{8}} \approx 2.61313&lt;/math&gt;

The chord ratio &lt;math&gt;r_3=1+\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt; is a geometrical proportion, the [[W:Silver ratio|silver ratio]]. Fontaine and Hurley's procedure for obtaining the reciprocal of a chord tells us that:

:&lt;math&gt;r_3-r_1-r_1=1/r_3 \approx 0.41421&lt;/math&gt;

Notice that &lt;math&gt;1/r_3=\sqrt{2}-1=r_3-2&lt;/math&gt;.

If we embed this planar octagon in 3-space, we can make it skew, repositioning its vertices so that each is one unit-edge length distant from three others instead of two others, so we obtain a unit-edge cube with chords of length:

:&lt;math&gt;r_1=1, r_2=\sqrt{2}, r_3=\sqrt{3}, r_4=\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;

If we embed this cube in 4-space, we can skew it some more, repositioning its vertices so that each is one unit-edge length distant from six others instead of three others, so we obtain a unit-edge 4-polytope with chords of length:

:&lt;math&gt;r_1=1,r_2=1,r_3=1,r_4=\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;

All of its chords except its long diameters are the same unit length as its edge. In fact they are its 24 edges, and it is a 16-cell of radius &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1/\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;.

[[File:octagon16cell.png|thumb|Cell-first orthogonal projection of a 16-cell. Only its edges are shown; its long diameter chords are not drawn. None of the 24 edges lie in the view plane.]]

The [[16-cell]] is the [[W:Regular convex 4-polytope|regular convex 4-polytope]] with [[W:Schläfli symbol|Schläfli symbol]] {3,3,4}. It has 8 vertices, 24 edges, 32 equilateral triangle faces, and 16 regular tetrahedron cells. It is the [[16-cell#Octahedral dipyramid|four-dimensional analogue of the octahedron]], and each of its four orthogonal central hyperplanes is an octahedron.

The only planar regular polygons found in the 16-cell are face triangles and central plane squares, but the 16-cell also contains a regular skew octagon, its [[W:Petrie polygon|Petrie polygon]]. The chords of this regular octagon, which lies skew in 4-space, are those given above for the 16-cell, as opposed to those for the cube or the regular octagon in the plane. The 16-cell has 3 such Petrie octagons, which share the same 8 vertices but have disjoint sets of 8 edges each.

The regular octad has higher symmetry in 4-space than it does in 2-space. The 16-cell is the 4-orthoplex, the simplest regular 4-polytope after the [[5-cell|4-simplex]]. All the larger regular 4-polytopes, including the 120-cell, are compounds of the 16-cell. The regular octagon exhibits this high symmetry only when embedded in 4-space at the vertices of the 16-cell.

The 16-cell constitutes an [[W:Orthonormal basis|orthonormal basis]] for the choice of a 4-dimensional Cartesian reference frame, because its vertices define four orthogonal axes. The eight vertices of a unit-radius 16-cell are (±1, 0, 0, 0), (0, ±1, 0, 0), (0, 0, ±1, 0), (0, 0, 0, ±1). All vertices are connected by &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; edges except opposite pairs. In this convenient unit-radius 4-coordinate system, the original planar octagon we started with had chords of length:

:&lt;math&gt;r_1=\sqrt{2},r_2=\sqrt{2(2+\sqrt{2})} \approx 2.61313,r_3=2+\sqrt{2} \approx 3.41421,r_4=2 \sqrt{2+\sqrt{2}} \approx 3.69552&lt;/math&gt;

none of which chords occur in a 16-cell or 120-cell except &lt;math&gt;r_1=\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;. 

In the unit-radius 120-cell, the great square edge chord &lt;math&gt;c_{15} = \sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt; occurs in 675 distinct (75 disjoint) 16-cells. The vertex coordinates of the 16-cell form 6 central squares lying in 6 pairwise [[W:Orthogonal|orthogonal]] coordinate planes. Great squares in ''opposite'' planes that do not share an axis (e.g. in the ''xy'' and ''wz'' planes) are completely disjoint (they do not intersect at any vertices). These planes are [[W:Completely orthogonal|completely orthogonal]].{{Efn|name=Six orthogonal planes of the Cartesian basis}}

[[W:Rotations in 4-dimensional Euclidean space|Rotations in 4-dimensional Euclidean space]] can be seen as the composition of two 2-dimensional rotations in completely orthogonal planes. The general rotation in 4-space is a double rotation in pairs of completely orthogonal planes. The two completely orthogonal planes are called invariant rotation planes, because all points in the plane rotate on circles that remain in the plane, even as the whole plane tilts sideways (like a coin flipping) into another plane. The two completely orthogonal rotations of each plane (like a wheel, and like a coin flipping) are simultaneous but independent, in that they are not geometrically constrained to turn at the same rate. However, the most circular kind of rotation (as opposed to an elliptical double rotation of a rigid spherical object) occurs when the completely orthogonal planes do rotate through the same angle in the same time interval. Such equi-angled double rotations are called [[w:SO(4)#Isoclinic_rotations|isoclinic]], also [[w:William_Kingdon_Clifford|Clifford]] displacements.

The 16-cell is the simplest possible frame in which to [[16-cell#Rotations|observe 4-dimensional rotations]] because its characteristic isoclinic rotations feature a single pair of invariant rotation planes. In the 16-cell an isoclinic rotation by 90° in any pair of invariant completely orthogonal square central planes takes every square central plane to its completely orthogonal square central plane, and takes every vertex to its antipodal vertex 180° degrees away. All the vertices move at once, displaced 180° in 8 orthogonal directions, and the rigid 16-cell assumes a new orientation in 4-space. The trajectory of each vertex is a one-eighth segment of its [[W:Geodesic|geodesic]] orbit. Its entire orbit traces a circular helix in 4-space, and also traces a great circle in one of the two completely orthogonal invariant rotation planes, as they tilt sideways into each other's plane. When the isoclinic rotation is continued in the same rotational direction through an additional 90°, each vertex is again displaced 180° to its antipodal position, but from the new orientation where the vertex is on the opposite side of the 16-cell departing in the opposite direction. In the course of a 720° isoclinic rotation each vertex departs from all 8 vertex positions just once, and returns to its original position.

== Hypercubes ==
The long diameter of the unit-edge [[W:Hypercube|hypercube]] of dimension &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;n&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; is &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{n}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;, so the unit-edge [[w:Tesseract|4-hypercube, the 16-point (8-cell) tesseract,]] has chords:
:&lt;math&gt;r_1=\sqrt{1},r_2=\sqrt{2},r_3=\sqrt{3},r_4=\sqrt{4}&lt;/math&gt;
Uniquely in its 4-dimensional case, the hypercube's edge length equals its radius, like the hexagon. We call such polytopes ''radially equilateral'', because they can be constructed from equilateral triangles which meet at their center, each contributing two radii and an edge. The cuboctahedron and the 24-cell are also radially equilateral.

The [[W:Tesseract|tesseract]] is the [[W:Regular convex 4-polytope|regular convex 4-polytope]] with [[W:Schläfli symbol|Schläfli symbol]] {4,3,3}. It has 16 vertices, 32 edges, 24 square faces, and 8 cube cells. It is the four-dimensional analogue of the cube.

The tesseract is the [[W:Dual polytope|dual polytope]] of the 16-cell. They have the same Petrie polygon, the regular octagon, but the tesseract contains 2 disjoint instances and 4 distinct instances of the skew octagon. We can construct the tesseract the way we constructed the 16-cell, by skewing a planar octagon's edges so they become edges of the 4-polytope. Because the tesseract has 16 vertices we will need two planar octagons, and to start we must embedded them in 4-space as completely orthogonal planes that intersect at only one point, their common center. Because the tesseract is radially equilateral (unlike the 16-cell), to build a unit-radius tesseract we start with our original octagon of unit-edge length, rather than the octagon of edge length &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; that we needed to build the unit-radius 16-cell.

For our tesseract construction we skew each planar octagon into a cube, so we have a compound of two completely orthogonal cubes. Provided the planes were completely orthogonal in 4-space and we skewed them both the same way, the 16 vertices will be the vertices of a tesseract with half of its 32 edges missing.

The 16-point tesseract is the convex hull of a compound of two 8-point 16-cells, in exact dimensional analogy to the way the 8-point cube is the convex hull of a [[W:Stellated octahedron|compound of two regular 4-point tetrahedra]]. The [[W:Demihypercube|demihypercubes]] occupy alternate vertices of the hypercubes. The diagonals of the square faces of the unit-radius tesseract are the &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; edges of two unit-radius 16-cells, which are also the edges of the square central planes.

Because the tesseract contains two 16-cells in alternate positions it has two sets of 6 orthogonal square central planes. Two angles are required to specify the relationship between two planes in 4-space. Pairs of planes within each 16-cell are 90° apart in one angle, and either 0° or 90° apart in the other angle. They are 90° apart in both angles if and only if they are completely orthogonal planes, 90° apart by isoclinic rotation, with no vertices in common and their corresponding vertices 180° apart. Otherwise they are 0° apart in one of the angles, 90° apart by simple rotation with their corresponding vertices 90° apart, and they intersect in one axis and lie in a common 3-dimensional hyperplane.{{Efn|A double rotation in which one of the two angles of rotation is 0°, so that one of the completely orthogonal invariant planes does not rotate, is called a simple rotation. Ordinary rotations observed in a 3-dimensional space are simple rotations.}}

A pair of square central planes from alternate 16-cells are 60° apart by isoclinic rotation, with their corresponding vertices 120° apart. The planes are not orthogonal or parallel, so they intersect in a line somewhere, but they have no vertices in common, they have no 3-dimensional hyperplane in common, and they cannot reach each other by simple rotation. Such pairs of objects are called [[W:Clifford parallel|Clifford parallel]] because all their corresponding pairs of vertices are the same distance apart, although they are not parallel in the usual sense, because they have a common center. Not only the alternate 16-cells' corresponding square central planes, but also the 16-cells themselves, are Clifford parallel objects.

We can rotate the tesseract isoclinically the way we rotated the 16-cell, by 90° in two completely orthogonal invariant square central planes, with the same effect on both alternate 16-cells. In the course of a 720° isoclinic rotation in invariant square central planes each vertex departs from all 8 vertex positions of its 16-cell just once and returns to its original position, but it does not visit the vertex positions of the other 16-cell. The skew octagon geodesic orbits of the 16 vertices are disjoint circular helixes, and those 16 circular helixes are Clifford parallel objects.

== The 24-cell ==
In 2-space we have the radially equilateral 6-point hexagon. In 3-space we have the radially equilateral 12-point cuboctahedron, with 4 hexagonal central planes. In 4-space we have the radially equilateral 24-point 24-cell, with 4 cuboctahedral central hyperplanes and 16 hexagonal central planes.

Great hexagons are a rounder choice than great squares for the invariant rotation planes in which to rotate a 4-polytope isoclinically. The complete hexagonal isoclinic revolution requires 720° like the complete square isoclinic revolution, but it is completed in 6 chordal steps of 120° each rather than 8 chordal steps of 180° each.

...

== The 600-cell ==

...

== Finally the 120-cell ==

...

== Conclusions ==

Fontaine and Hurley's discovery is more than a formula for the reciprocal of a regular ''n''-polygon diagonal. It also yields the discrete sequence of isocline chords of the distinct isoclinic rotation characteristic of a ''d''-dimensional regular polytope. The characteristic rotational chord sequence of the ''d''-polytope can be represented geometrically in two dimensions on a distinct star polygon, but it lies on a geodesic circle through ''d''-dimensional space. Fontaine and Hurley discovered the geodesic topology of polytopes generally. Their procedure will reveal the geodesics of arbitrary non-uniform polytopes, since it can be applied to a polytope of any dimensionality and irregularity, by first fitting the polytope to the smallest regular polygon whose chords include its chords.

Fontaine and Hurley's discovery of a chordal formula for isoclinic rotations closes the circuit on Kappraff and Adamson's discovery of a rotational connection between dynamical systems, Steinbach's golden fields, and Coxeter's Euclidean geometry of ''n'' dimensions. Application of the Fontaine and Hurley procedure in higher-dimensional spaces demonstrates why the connection exists: because polytope sequences generally, from Steinbach's golden polygon chord sequences, to chord sequences in isoclinic rotation helixes, to subsumption relations in the sequence of regular 4-polytopes, arise as expressions of the reflections and rotations of distinct Coxeter symmetry groups, when those various groups interact.

== Appendix: Sequence of regular 4-polytopes ==
{{Regular convex 4-polytopes|wiki=W:|columns=7}}

== Notes ==
{{Notelist}}

== Citations ==
{{Reflist}}

== References ==
{{Refbegin}}
* {{Cite journal | last=Steinbach | first=Peter | year=1997 | title=Golden fields: A case for the Heptagon | journal=Mathematics Magazine | volume=70 | issue=Feb 1997 | pages=22–31 | doi=10.1080/0025570X.1997.11996494 | jstor=2691048 | ref={{SfnRef|Steinbach|1997}} }}
* {{Cite journal | last=Steinbach | first=Peter | year=2000 | title=Sections Beyond Golden| journal=Bridges: Mathematical Connections in Art, Music and Science | issue=2000 | pages=35-44 | url=https://archive.bridgesmathart.org/2000/bridges2000-35.pdf | ref={{SfnRef|Steinbach|2000}}}}
* {{Cite journal | last1=Kappraff | first1=Jay | last2=Jablan | first2=Slavik | last3=Adamson | first3=Gary | last4=Sazdanovich | first4=Radmila | year=2004 | title=Golden Fields, Generalized Fibonacci Sequences, and Chaotic Matrices | journal=Forma | volume=19 | pages=367-387 | url=https://archive.bridgesmathart.org/2005/bridges2005-369.pdf | ref={{SfnRef|Kappraff, Jablan, Adamson &amp; Sazdanovich|2004}} }}
* {{Cite journal | last1=Kappraff | first1=Jay | last2=Adamson | first2=Gary | year=2004 | title=Polygons and Chaos | journal=Dynamical Systems and Geometric Theories | url=https://archive.bridgesmathart.org/2001/bridges2001-67.pdf | ref={{SfnRef|Kappraff &amp; Adamson|2004}} }}
* {{Cite journal | last1=Fontaine | first1=Anne | last2=Hurley | first2=Susan | year=2006 | title=Proof by Picture: Products and Reciprocals of Diagonal Length Ratios in the Regular Polygon | journal=Forum Geometricorum | volume=6 | pages=97-101 | url=https://scispace.com/pdf/proof-by-picture-products-and-reciprocals-of-diagonal-length-1aian8mgp9.pdf }}
{{Refend}}</text>
      <sha1>5g0x7vbvsksbriwcj4719c8kvi6bq2h</sha1>
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    <revision>
      <id>2808070</id>
      <parentid>2808069</parentid>
      <timestamp>2026-05-09T16:12:58Z</timestamp>
      <contributor>
        <username>Dc.samizdat</username>
        <id>2856930</id>
      </contributor>
      <comment>/* The 8-point regular polytopes */</comment>
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      <text bytes="45726" sha1="pujwx3o8ytx4zpqgbmjn8vxbkbh9ewc" xml:space="preserve">{{align|center|David Brooks Christie}}
{{align|center|dc@samizdat.org}}
{{align|center|Draft in progress}}
{{align|center|January 2026 - April 2026}}

&lt;blockquote&gt;Steinbach discovered the formula for the ratios of diagonal to side in the regular polygons. Fontaine and Hurley extended this result, discovering a formula for the reciprocal of a regular polygon chord derived geometrically from the chord's star polygon. We observe that these findings in plane geometry apply more generally, to polytopes of any dimensionality. Fontaine and Hurley's geometric procedure for finding the reciprocals of the chords of a regular polygon from their star polygons also finds the rotational geodesics of any polytope of any dimensionality.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
== Introduction ==
Steinbach discovered the Diagonal Product Formula and the Golden Fields family of ratios of diagonal to side in the regular polygons. He showed how this family extends beyond the pentagon {5} with its well-known golden bisection proportional to 𝜙, finding that the heptagon {7} has an analogous trisection, the nonagon {9} has an analogous quadrasection, and the hendecagon {11} has an analogous pentasection, an extended family of golden proportions with quasiperiodic properties. 

Kappraff and Adamson extended these findings in plane geometry to a theory of Generalized Fibonacci Sequences, showing that the Golden Fields not only do not end with the hendecagon, they form an infinite number of periodic trajectories when operated on by the Mandelbrot operator. They found a relation between the edges of star polygons and dynamical systems in the state of chaos, revealing a connection between chaos theory, number, and rotations in Coxeter Euclidean geometry. 

Fontaine and Hurley examined Steinbach's finding that the length of each chord of a regular polygon is both the product of two chords and the sum of a set of smaller chords, so that in rotations to add is to multiply. They illustrated Steinbach's sets of additive chords lying parallel to each other in the plane (pointing in the same direction), and by applying Steinbach's formula more generally they found another summation relation of signed parallel chords (pointing in opposite directions) which relates each chord length to its reciprocal, and relates the summation to a distinct star polygon rotation. 

We examine these remarkable findings (which stem from study of the chords of humble regular polygons) in higher-dimensional spaces, specifically in the chords, polygons and rotations of the [[120-cell]], the largest four-dimensional regular convex polytope.

== Visualizing the 120-cell ==
{| class=&quot;wikitable floatright&quot; width=&quot;400&quot;
|style=&quot;vertical-align:top&quot;|[[File:120-cell.gif|200px]]&lt;br&gt;Orthographic projection of the 600-point 120-cell &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\{5,3,3\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; performing a [[W:SO(4)#Geometry of 4D rotations|simple rotation]].{{Sfn|Hise|2011|loc=File:120-cell.gif|ps=; &quot;Created by Jason Hise with Maya and Macromedia Fireworks. A 3D projection of a 120-cell performing a [[W:SO(4)#Geometry of 4D rotations|simple rotation]].&quot;}} In this simplified rendering only the 120-cell's own edges are shown; its 29 interior chords are not rendered. Therefore even though it is translucent, only its outer surface is visible. The complex interior parts of the 120-cell, all its inscribed 5-cells, 16-cells, 8-cells, 24-cells, 600-cells and its much larger inventory of polyhedra, are completely invisible in this view, as none of their edges are rendered at all.
|style=&quot;vertical-align:top&quot;|[[File:Ortho solid 016-uniform polychoron p33-t0.png|200px]]&lt;br&gt;Orthographic projection of the 600-point [[W:Great grand stellated 120-cell|great grand stellated 120-cell]] &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\{\tfrac{5}{2},3,3\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;.{{Sfn|Ruen: Great grand stellated 120-cell|2007}} The 120-cell is its convex hull. The projection to the left renders only the 120-cell's shortest chord, its 1200 edges. The projection above also renders only one of the 120-cell's 30 chords, the edges of its 120 inscribed regular 5-cells. The 120-cell itself (the convex hull) is invisible in this view, as its edges are not rendered.
|}

[[120-cell#Geometry|The 120-cell is the maximally complex regular 4-polytope]], containing inscribed instances of every regular 1-, 2-, 3-, and 4-polytope, except the regular polygons of more than {15} sides. 

The 120-cell is the convex hull of a regular [[120-cell#Relationships among interior polytopes|compound of each of the 6 regular convex 4-polytopes]]. They are the [[5-cell|5-point (5-cell) 4-simplex]], the [[16-cell|8-point (16-cell) 4-orthoplex]], the [[W:Tesseract|16-point (8-cell) tesseract]], the [[24-cell|24-point (24-cell)]], the [[600-cell|120-point (600-cell)]], and the [[120-cell|600-point (120-cell)]]. The 120-cell is the convex hull of a compound of 120 disjoint regular 5-cells, of 75 disjoint 16-cells, of 25 disjoint 24-cells, and of 5 disjoint 600-cells.

The 120-cell contains an even larger inventory of irregular polytopes, created by the intersection of multiple instances of these component regular 4-polytopes. Many are quite unexpected, because they do not occur as components of any regular polytope smaller than the 120-cell. As just one example among the [[120-cell#Concentric hulls|sections of the 120-cell]], there is an irregular 24-point polyhedron with 16 triangle faces and 4 nonagon {9} faces.{{Sfn|Moxness|}}

Most renderings of the 120-cell, like the rotating projection here, only illustrate its outer surface, which is a honeycomb of face-bonded dodecahedral cells. Only the objects in its 3-dimensional surface are rendered, namely the 120 dodecahedra, their pentagon faces, and their edges. Although the 120-cell has chords of 30 distinct lengths, in this kind of simplified rendering only the 120-cell's own edges (its shortest chord) are shown. Its 29 interior chords, the edges of objects in the interior of the 120-cell, are not rendered, so interior objects are not visible at all.

Visualizing the complete interior of the 600-vertex 120-cell in a single image is impractical because of its complexity. Only four 120-cell edges are incident at each vertex, but [[120-cell#Chords|600 chords (of all 30 lengths)]] are incident at ''each'' vertex.

== Compounds in the 120-cell ==
The 8-point (16-cell), not the 5-point (5-cell), is the smallest building block; it compounds to every larger regular 4-polytope. The 5-point (5-cell) does compound to the 600-point (120-cell), but it does not fit into any smaller regular 4-polytope. 

The 8-point (16-cell) compounds by 2 in the 16-point (8-cell), and by 3 in the 24-point (24-cell). The 16-point (8-cell) compounds in the 24-point (24-cell) by 3 non-disjoint instances of itself, with each of the 24 vertices shared by two 16-point (8-cells). The 24-point (24-cell) compounds by 5 disjoint instances of itself in the 120-point (600-cell), and the 120-point (600-cell) compounds by 5 disjoint instances of itself in the 600-point (120-cell).

The 24-point (24-cell) also compounds by &lt;math&gt;5^2&lt;/math&gt; non-disjoint instances of itself in the 120-point (600-cell); it compounds in 5 disjoint instances of itself, 10 (not 5) different ways. Whichever set of 5 disjoint 24-point (24-cells) are assembled, the resulting 120-point (600-cell) contains 25 distinct 24-point (24-cells), not just 5 (or 10). This implies that 15 disjoint 8-point (16-cells) will construct a 120-point (600-cell), which will contain 75 distinct 8-point (16-cells). 

The 600-point (120-cell) is 5 disjoint 120-point (600-cells), just 2 different ways (not 5 or 10 ways), so it is 10 distinct 120-point (600-cells). This implies that the 8-point (16-cell) compounds by 3 times &lt;math&gt;5^2&lt;/math&gt; (75) disjoint instances of itself in the 600-point (120-cell), which contains &lt;math&gt;3^2&lt;/math&gt; times  &lt;math&gt;5^2&lt;/math&gt; (225) distinct instances of the 24-point (24-cell), and  &lt;math&gt;3^3&lt;/math&gt; times &lt;math&gt;5^2&lt;/math&gt; (675) distinct instances of the 8-point (16-cell). 

These facts were discovered painstakingly by various researchers, and no one has found a general rule governing subsumption relations among regular polytopes. The reasons for some of their numeric incidence relations are far from obvious. [[W:Pieter Hendrik Schoute|Schoute]] was the first to see that the 120-point (600-cell) is a compound of 5 24-point (24-cells) ''10 different ways'', and after he saw it a hundred years lapsed until Denney, Hooker, Johnson, Robinson, Butler &amp; Claiborne proved his result, and showed why.{{Sfn|Denney, Hooker, Johnson, Robinson, Butler &amp; Claiborne|2020|loc=''The geometry of H4 polytopes''}}

So much for the compounds of 16-cells. The 120-cell is also the convex hull of the compound of 120 disjoint regular 5-cells. That stellated compound (without its convex hull of 120-cell edges) is the [[w:Great_grand_stellated_120-cell|great grand stellated 120-cell]] illustrated above, the final regular [[W:Stellation|stellation]] of the 120-cell, and the only [[W:Schläfli-Hess polychoron|regular star 4-polytope]] to have the 120-cell for its convex hull. The edges of the great grand stellated 120-cell are &lt;math&gt;\phi^6&lt;/math&gt; as long as those of its 120-cell [[W:List of polyhedral stellations#Stellation process|stellation core]] deep inside.

The compound of 120 disjoint 5-point (5-cells) can be seen to be equivalent to the compound of 5 disjoint 120-point (600-cells), as follows. Beginning with a single 120-point (600-cell), expand each vertex into a regular 5-cell, by adding 4 new equidistant vertices, such that the 5 vertices form a regular 5-cell inscribed in the 3-sphere. The 120 5-cells are disjoint, and the 600 vertices form 5 disjoint 120-point (600-cells): a 120-cell.

== Thirty distinguished distances ==
The 30 numbers listed in the table are all-important in Euclidean geometry. A case can be made on symmetry grounds that their squares are the 30 most important numbers between 0 and 4. The 30 rows of the table are the 30 distinct [[120-cell#Geodesic rectangles|chord lengths of the unit-radius 120-cell]], the largest regular convex 4-polytope. Since the 120-cell subsumes all smaller regular polytopes, its 30 chords are the complete chord set of all the regular polytopes that can be constructed in the first four dimensions of Euclidean space, except for regular polygons of more than 15 sides.

{| class=&quot;wikitable&quot; style=&quot;white-space:nowrap;text-align:center&quot;
!rowspan=2|&lt;math&gt;c_t&lt;/math&gt;
!rowspan=2|arc
!rowspan=2|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{n}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
!rowspan=2|&lt;math&gt;\left\{p\right\}&lt;/math&gt;
!rowspan=2|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;m\left\{\frac{k}{d}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
!rowspan=2|Steinbach roots
!colspan=7|Chord lengths of the unit 120-cell
|-
!colspan=5|unit-radius length &lt;math&gt;c_t&lt;/math&gt;
!colspan=2|unit-edge length &lt;math&gt;c_t/c_1&lt;/math&gt;&lt;br&gt;in 120-cell of radius &lt;math&gt;c_8=\sqrt{2}\phi^2&lt;/math&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{1,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;15.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{30\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{30\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{4,1}-c_{2,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{7-3 \sqrt{5}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.270091&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\sqrt{2} \phi ^2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2 \phi ^4}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.072949}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{2,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;25.2{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{2}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2 \left\{15\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \left(c_{18,1}-c_{4,1}\right)&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{3-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.437016&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\sqrt{2} \phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2 \phi ^2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.190983}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi &lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.61803&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{3,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;36{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{3}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{10\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;3 \left\{\frac{10}{3}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \left(\sqrt{5}-1\right) c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \left(\sqrt{5}-1\right)&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.618034&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{\phi ^2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.381966}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2} \phi &lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2.28825&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{4,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;41.4{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{60}{7}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{c_{8,1}}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.707107&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2.61803&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{5,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;44.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{4}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2 \left\{\frac{15}{2}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3} c_{2,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{9-3 \sqrt{5}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.756934&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}}}{\phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2 \phi ^2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.572949}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3} \phi &lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2.80252&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{6,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;49.1{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{120}{17}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{5-\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{5-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.831254&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\frac{1}{\phi }}}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{\sqrt{5}}{2 \phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.690983}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\phi ^3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;3.07768&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{7,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;56.0{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{20}{3}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}-\frac{1}{\phi }} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}-\frac{2}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.93913&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{\frac{\psi }{\phi }}}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{\psi }{2 \phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.881966}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\psi  \phi ^3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;3.47709&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;60{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{5}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{6\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{6\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;3.70246&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{9,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;66.1{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{40}{7}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}-\frac{1}{2 \phi }} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}-\frac{1}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.09132&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{\frac{\chi }{\phi }}}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{\chi }{2 \phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.19098}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\chi  \phi ^3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;4.04057&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{10,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;69.8{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{60}{11}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi  c_{4,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1+\sqrt{5}}{2 \sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.14412&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\phi }{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{\phi ^2}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.30902}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^3&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;4.23607&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{11,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;72{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{6}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{5\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{5\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\frac{1}{\phi }} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\frac{2}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.17557&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3-\phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3-\phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.38197}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2} \sqrt{3-\phi } \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;4.3525&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{12,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;75.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{24}{5}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.22474&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;4.53457&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{13,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;81.1{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{60}{13}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{9-\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{9-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.30038&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{9-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{4} \left(9-\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.69098}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2} \left(9-\sqrt{5}\right)} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;4.8146&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{14,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;84.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{40}{9}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\phi } c_{8,1}}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{1+\sqrt{5}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.345&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\phi }}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{\sqrt{5} \phi }{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.80902}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\phi ^5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;4.9798&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{15,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;90.0{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{7}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{4\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{4\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2 c_{4,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.41421&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2 \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;5.23607&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{16,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;95.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{120}{29}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{11-\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{11-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.4802&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{11-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{4} \left(11-\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.19098}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2} \left(11-\sqrt{5}\right)} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;5.48037&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{17,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;98.9{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{120}{31}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{7+\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{7+\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.51954&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{7+\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{4} \left(7+\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.30902}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\psi  \phi ^5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;5.62605&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{18,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;104.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{8}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{15}{4}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.58114&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{5} \sqrt{\phi ^4}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;5.8541&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{19,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;108.0{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{9}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{10}{3}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{3,1}+c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \left(1+\sqrt{5}\right)&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.61803&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi &lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1+\phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.61803}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2} \phi ^3&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;5.9907&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{20,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;110.2{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{120}{7}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{13-\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{13-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.64042&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{13-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{4} \left(13-\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.69098}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2 \sqrt{8-\phi ^2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.07359&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{21,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;113.9{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{60}{19}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}+\frac{1}{1+\sqrt{5}}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}+\frac{1}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.67601&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}+\frac{1}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}+\frac{1}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.80902}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2 \sqrt{8-\frac{\chi }{\phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.20537&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{22,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;120{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{10}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{3\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{3\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.73205&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{6} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.41285&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{23,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;124.0{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{120}{41}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{\phi }+\frac{5}{2}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}+\frac{2}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.7658&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{4-\frac{\psi }{2 \phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{4-\frac{\psi }{2 \phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.11803}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\chi  \phi ^5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.53779&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{24,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;130.9{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{20}{7}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{11+\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{11+\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.81907&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{11+\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{4} \left(11+\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.30902}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2 \sqrt{8-\frac{\sqrt{5}}{\phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.73503&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{25,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;135.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{11}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{11}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{7+3 \sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{7+3 \sqrt{5}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.85123&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\phi ^2}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{\phi ^4}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.42705}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^4&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.8541&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{26,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;138.6{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{12}{5}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{7}{2}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{7}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.87083&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{7}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{7}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{7} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.92667&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{27,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;144{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{12}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{5}{2}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2} \left(5+\sqrt{5}\right)} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2} \left(5+\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.90211&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\phi +2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2+\phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.61803}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2 \sqrt{2 \phi +4}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;7.0425&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{28,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;154.8{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{13}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{13}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{13+\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{13+\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.95167&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{13+\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{4} \left(13+\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.80902}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2 \sqrt{8-\frac{1}{\phi ^2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;7.22598&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{29,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;164.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{14}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{15}{7}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi  c_{12,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{\frac{3}{2}} \left(1+\sqrt{5}\right)&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.98168&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}} \phi &lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3 \phi ^2}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.92705}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3} \phi ^3&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;7.33708&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{30,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;180{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{15}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{2\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{2\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2 c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2.&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{4}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{4.}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2 \sqrt{2} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;7.40492&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|rowspan=4 colspan=6|
|rowspan=4 colspan=4|
&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; is the golden ratio:&lt;br&gt;
&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2-\phi -1=0&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;&lt;br&gt;
&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\phi }+1=\phi&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;, and: &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi+1=\phi^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;&lt;br&gt;
&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\phi }::1::\phi ::\phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;&lt;br&gt;
&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1/\phi&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; and &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; are the golden sections of &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;:&lt;br&gt;
&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi +\frac{1}{\phi }=\sqrt{5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|colspan=2|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi = (\sqrt{5} + 1)/2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.618034&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|colspan=2|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\chi = (3\sqrt{5} + 1)/2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;3.854102&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|colspan=2|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\psi = (3\sqrt{5} - 1)/2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2.854102&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|colspan=2|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\psi = 11/\chi = 22/(3\sqrt{5} + 1)&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2.854102&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|}

...

== The 8-point regular polytopes ==
In 2-space we have the regular 8-point octagon, in 3-space the regular 8-point cube, and in 4-space the regular 8-point [[W:16-cell|16-cell]].

A planar octagon with rigid edges of unit length has chords of length:

:&lt;math&gt;r_1=1,r_2=\sqrt{2+\sqrt{2}} \approx 1.84776,r_3=1+\sqrt{2} \approx 2.41421,r_4=\sqrt{4 + \sqrt{8}} \approx 2.61313&lt;/math&gt;

The chord ratio &lt;math&gt;r_3=1+\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt; is a geometrical proportion, the [[W:Silver ratio|silver ratio]]. Fontaine and Hurley's procedure for obtaining the reciprocal of a chord tells us that:

:&lt;math&gt;r_3-r_1-r_1=1/r_3 \approx 0.41421&lt;/math&gt;

Notice that &lt;math&gt;1/r_3=\sqrt{2}-1=r_3-2&lt;/math&gt;.

If we embed this planar octagon in 3-space, we can make it skew, repositioning its vertices so that each is one unit-edge length distant from three others instead of two others, so we obtain a unit-edge cube with chords of length:

:&lt;math&gt;r_1=1, r_2=\sqrt{2}, r_3=\sqrt{3}, r_4=\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;

If we embed this cube in 4-space, we can skew it some more, repositioning its vertices so that each is one unit-edge length distant from six others instead of three others, so we obtain a unit-edge 4-polytope with chords of length:

:&lt;math&gt;r_1=1,r_2=1,r_3=1,r_4=\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;

All of its chords except its long diameters are the same unit length as its edge. In fact they are its 24 edges, and it is a 16-cell of radius &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1/\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;.

[[File:octagon16cell.png|thumb|Cell-first orthogonal projection of a regular 16-cell. Only its edges are shown; its long diameter chords are not drawn. All of the 24 edges are the same length and none lie in the view plane.]]

The [[16-cell]] is the [[W:Regular convex 4-polytope|regular convex 4-polytope]] with [[W:Schläfli symbol|Schläfli symbol]] {3,3,4}. It has 8 vertices, 24 edges, 32 equilateral triangle faces, and 16 regular tetrahedron cells. It is the [[16-cell#Octahedral dipyramid|four-dimensional analogue of the octahedron]], and each of its four orthogonal central hyperplanes is an octahedron.

The only planar regular polygons found in the 16-cell are face triangles and central plane squares, but the 16-cell also contains a regular skew octagon, its [[W:Petrie polygon|Petrie polygon]]. The chords of this regular octagon, which lies skew in 4-space, are those given above for the 16-cell, as opposed to those for the cube or the regular octagon in the plane. The 16-cell has 3 such Petrie octagons, which share the same 8 vertices but have disjoint sets of 8 edges each.

The regular octad has higher symmetry in 4-space than it does in 2-space. The 16-cell is the 4-orthoplex, the simplest regular 4-polytope after the [[5-cell|4-simplex]]. All the larger regular 4-polytopes, including the 120-cell, are compounds of the 16-cell. The regular octagon exhibits this high symmetry only when embedded in 4-space at the vertices of the 16-cell.

The 16-cell constitutes an [[W:Orthonormal basis|orthonormal basis]] for the choice of a 4-dimensional Cartesian reference frame, because its vertices define four orthogonal axes. The eight vertices of a unit-radius 16-cell are (±1, 0, 0, 0), (0, ±1, 0, 0), (0, 0, ±1, 0), (0, 0, 0, ±1). All vertices are connected by &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; edges except opposite pairs. In this convenient unit-radius 4-coordinate system, the original planar octagon we started with had chords of length:

:&lt;math&gt;r_1=\sqrt{2},r_2=\sqrt{2(2+\sqrt{2})} \approx 2.61313,r_3=2+\sqrt{2} \approx 3.41421,r_4=2 \sqrt{2+\sqrt{2}} \approx 3.69552&lt;/math&gt;

none of which chords occur in a 16-cell or 120-cell except &lt;math&gt;r_1=\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;. 

In the unit-radius 120-cell, the great square edge chord &lt;math&gt;c_{15} = \sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt; occurs in 675 distinct (75 disjoint) 16-cells. The vertex coordinates of the 16-cell form 6 central squares lying in 6 pairwise [[W:Orthogonal|orthogonal]] coordinate planes. Great squares in ''opposite'' planes that do not share an axis (e.g. in the ''xy'' and ''wz'' planes) are completely disjoint (they do not intersect at any vertices). These planes are [[W:Completely orthogonal|completely orthogonal]].{{Efn|name=Six orthogonal planes of the Cartesian basis}}

[[W:Rotations in 4-dimensional Euclidean space|Rotations in 4-dimensional Euclidean space]] can be seen as the composition of two 2-dimensional rotations in completely orthogonal planes. The general rotation in 4-space is a double rotation in pairs of completely orthogonal planes. The two completely orthogonal planes are called invariant rotation planes, because all points in the plane rotate on circles that remain in the plane, even as the whole plane tilts sideways (like a coin flipping) into another plane. The two completely orthogonal rotations of each plane (like a wheel, and like a coin flipping) are simultaneous but independent, in that they are not geometrically constrained to turn at the same rate. However, the most circular kind of rotation (as opposed to an elliptical double rotation of a rigid spherical object) occurs when the completely orthogonal planes do rotate through the same angle in the same time interval. Such equi-angled double rotations are called [[w:SO(4)#Isoclinic_rotations|isoclinic]], also [[w:William_Kingdon_Clifford|Clifford]] displacements.

The 16-cell is the simplest possible frame in which to [[16-cell#Rotations|observe 4-dimensional rotations]] because its characteristic isoclinic rotations feature a single pair of invariant rotation planes. In the 16-cell an isoclinic rotation by 90° in any pair of invariant completely orthogonal square central planes takes every square central plane to its completely orthogonal square central plane, and takes every vertex to its antipodal vertex 180° degrees away. All the vertices move at once, displaced 180° in 8 orthogonal directions, and the rigid 16-cell assumes a new orientation in 4-space. The trajectory of each vertex is a one-eighth segment of its [[W:Geodesic|geodesic]] orbit. Its entire orbit traces a circular helix in 4-space, and also traces a great circle in one of the two completely orthogonal invariant rotation planes, as they tilt sideways into each other's plane. When the isoclinic rotation is continued in the same rotational direction through an additional 90°, each vertex is again displaced 180° to its antipodal position, but from the new orientation where the vertex is on the opposite side of the 16-cell departing in the opposite direction. In the course of a 720° isoclinic rotation each vertex departs from all 8 vertex positions just once, and returns to its original position.

== Hypercubes ==
The long diameter of the unit-edge [[W:Hypercube|hypercube]] of dimension &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;n&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; is &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{n}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;, so the unit-edge [[w:Tesseract|4-hypercube, the 16-point (8-cell) tesseract,]] has chords:
:&lt;math&gt;r_1=\sqrt{1},r_2=\sqrt{2},r_3=\sqrt{3},r_4=\sqrt{4}&lt;/math&gt;
Uniquely in its 4-dimensional case, the hypercube's edge length equals its radius, like the hexagon. We call such polytopes ''radially equilateral'', because they can be constructed from equilateral triangles which meet at their center, each contributing two radii and an edge. The cuboctahedron and the 24-cell are also radially equilateral.

The [[W:Tesseract|tesseract]] is the [[W:Regular convex 4-polytope|regular convex 4-polytope]] with [[W:Schläfli symbol|Schläfli symbol]] {4,3,3}. It has 16 vertices, 32 edges, 24 square faces, and 8 cube cells. It is the four-dimensional analogue of the cube.

The tesseract is the [[W:Dual polytope|dual polytope]] of the 16-cell. They have the same Petrie polygon, the regular octagon, but the tesseract contains 2 disjoint instances and 4 distinct instances of the skew octagon. We can construct the tesseract the way we constructed the 16-cell, by skewing a planar octagon's edges so they become edges of the 4-polytope. Because the tesseract has 16 vertices we will need two planar octagons, and to start we must embedded them in 4-space as completely orthogonal planes that intersect at only one point, their common center. Because the tesseract is radially equilateral (unlike the 16-cell), to build a unit-radius tesseract we start with our original octagon of unit-edge length, rather than the octagon of edge length &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; that we needed to build the unit-radius 16-cell.

For our tesseract construction we skew each planar octagon into a cube, so we have a compound of two completely orthogonal cubes. Provided the planes were completely orthogonal in 4-space and we skewed them both the same way, the 16 vertices will be the vertices of a tesseract with half of its 32 edges missing.

The 16-point tesseract is the convex hull of a compound of two 8-point 16-cells, in exact dimensional analogy to the way the 8-point cube is the convex hull of a [[W:Stellated octahedron|compound of two regular 4-point tetrahedra]]. The [[W:Demihypercube|demihypercubes]] occupy alternate vertices of the hypercubes. The diagonals of the square faces of the unit-radius tesseract are the &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; edges of two unit-radius 16-cells, which are also the edges of the square central planes.

Because the tesseract contains two 16-cells in alternate positions it has two sets of 6 orthogonal square central planes. Two angles are required to specify the relationship between two planes in 4-space. Pairs of planes within each 16-cell are 90° apart in one angle, and either 0° or 90° apart in the other angle. They are 90° apart in both angles if and only if they are completely orthogonal planes, 90° apart by isoclinic rotation, with no vertices in common and their corresponding vertices 180° apart. Otherwise they are 0° apart in one of the angles, 90° apart by simple rotation with their corresponding vertices 90° apart, and they intersect in one axis and lie in a common 3-dimensional hyperplane.{{Efn|A double rotation in which one of the two angles of rotation is 0°, so that one of the completely orthogonal invariant planes does not rotate, is called a simple rotation. Ordinary rotations observed in a 3-dimensional space are simple rotations.}}

A pair of square central planes from alternate 16-cells are 60° apart by isoclinic rotation, with their corresponding vertices 120° apart. The planes are not orthogonal or parallel, so they intersect in a line somewhere, but they have no vertices in common, they have no 3-dimensional hyperplane in common, and they cannot reach each other by simple rotation. Such pairs of objects are called [[W:Clifford parallel|Clifford parallel]] because all their corresponding pairs of vertices are the same distance apart, although they are not parallel in the usual sense, because they have a common center. Not only the alternate 16-cells' corresponding square central planes, but also the 16-cells themselves, are Clifford parallel objects.

We can rotate the tesseract isoclinically the way we rotated the 16-cell, by 90° in two completely orthogonal invariant square central planes, with the same effect on both alternate 16-cells. In the course of a 720° isoclinic rotation in invariant square central planes each vertex departs from all 8 vertex positions of its 16-cell just once and returns to its original position, but it does not visit the vertex positions of the other 16-cell. The skew octagon geodesic orbits of the 16 vertices are disjoint circular helixes, and those 16 circular helixes are Clifford parallel objects.

== The 24-cell ==
In 2-space we have the radially equilateral 6-point hexagon. In 3-space we have the radially equilateral 12-point cuboctahedron, with 4 hexagonal central planes. In 4-space we have the radially equilateral 24-point 24-cell, with 4 cuboctahedral central hyperplanes and 16 hexagonal central planes.

Great hexagons are a rounder choice than great squares for the invariant rotation planes in which to rotate a 4-polytope isoclinically. The complete hexagonal isoclinic revolution requires 720° like the complete square isoclinic revolution, but it is completed in 6 chordal steps of 120° each rather than 8 chordal steps of 180° each.

...

== The 600-cell ==

...

== Finally the 120-cell ==

...

== Conclusions ==

Fontaine and Hurley's discovery is more than a formula for the reciprocal of a regular ''n''-polygon diagonal. It also yields the discrete sequence of isocline chords of the distinct isoclinic rotation characteristic of a ''d''-dimensional regular polytope. The characteristic rotational chord sequence of the ''d''-polytope can be represented geometrically in two dimensions on a distinct star polygon, but it lies on a geodesic circle through ''d''-dimensional space. Fontaine and Hurley discovered the geodesic topology of polytopes generally. Their procedure will reveal the geodesics of arbitrary non-uniform polytopes, since it can be applied to a polytope of any dimensionality and irregularity, by first fitting the polytope to the smallest regular polygon whose chords include its chords.

Fontaine and Hurley's discovery of a chordal formula for isoclinic rotations closes the circuit on Kappraff and Adamson's discovery of a rotational connection between dynamical systems, Steinbach's golden fields, and Coxeter's Euclidean geometry of ''n'' dimensions. Application of the Fontaine and Hurley procedure in higher-dimensional spaces demonstrates why the connection exists: because polytope sequences generally, from Steinbach's golden polygon chord sequences, to chord sequences in isoclinic rotation helixes, to subsumption relations in the sequence of regular 4-polytopes, arise as expressions of the reflections and rotations of distinct Coxeter symmetry groups, when those various groups interact.

== Appendix: Sequence of regular 4-polytopes ==
{{Regular convex 4-polytopes|wiki=W:|columns=7}}

== Notes ==
{{Notelist}}

== Citations ==
{{Reflist}}

== References ==
{{Refbegin}}
* {{Cite journal | last=Steinbach | first=Peter | year=1997 | title=Golden fields: A case for the Heptagon | journal=Mathematics Magazine | volume=70 | issue=Feb 1997 | pages=22–31 | doi=10.1080/0025570X.1997.11996494 | jstor=2691048 | ref={{SfnRef|Steinbach|1997}} }}
* {{Cite journal | last=Steinbach | first=Peter | year=2000 | title=Sections Beyond Golden| journal=Bridges: Mathematical Connections in Art, Music and Science | issue=2000 | pages=35-44 | url=https://archive.bridgesmathart.org/2000/bridges2000-35.pdf | ref={{SfnRef|Steinbach|2000}}}}
* {{Cite journal | last1=Kappraff | first1=Jay | last2=Jablan | first2=Slavik | last3=Adamson | first3=Gary | last4=Sazdanovich | first4=Radmila | year=2004 | title=Golden Fields, Generalized Fibonacci Sequences, and Chaotic Matrices | journal=Forma | volume=19 | pages=367-387 | url=https://archive.bridgesmathart.org/2005/bridges2005-369.pdf | ref={{SfnRef|Kappraff, Jablan, Adamson &amp; Sazdanovich|2004}} }}
* {{Cite journal | last1=Kappraff | first1=Jay | last2=Adamson | first2=Gary | year=2004 | title=Polygons and Chaos | journal=Dynamical Systems and Geometric Theories | url=https://archive.bridgesmathart.org/2001/bridges2001-67.pdf | ref={{SfnRef|Kappraff &amp; Adamson|2004}} }}
* {{Cite journal | last1=Fontaine | first1=Anne | last2=Hurley | first2=Susan | year=2006 | title=Proof by Picture: Products and Reciprocals of Diagonal Length Ratios in the Regular Polygon | journal=Forum Geometricorum | volume=6 | pages=97-101 | url=https://scispace.com/pdf/proof-by-picture-products-and-reciprocals-of-diagonal-length-1aian8mgp9.pdf }}
{{Refend}}</text>
      <sha1>pujwx3o8ytx4zpqgbmjn8vxbkbh9ewc</sha1>
    </revision>
    <revision>
      <id>2808071</id>
      <parentid>2808070</parentid>
      <timestamp>2026-05-09T16:17:32Z</timestamp>
      <contributor>
        <username>Dc.samizdat</username>
        <id>2856930</id>
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      <comment>/* The 8-point regular polytopes */</comment>
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      <text bytes="45727" sha1="iajbhpdlxnbwcyycuwshmektvr6akj6" xml:space="preserve">{{align|center|David Brooks Christie}}
{{align|center|dc@samizdat.org}}
{{align|center|Draft in progress}}
{{align|center|January 2026 - April 2026}}

&lt;blockquote&gt;Steinbach discovered the formula for the ratios of diagonal to side in the regular polygons. Fontaine and Hurley extended this result, discovering a formula for the reciprocal of a regular polygon chord derived geometrically from the chord's star polygon. We observe that these findings in plane geometry apply more generally, to polytopes of any dimensionality. Fontaine and Hurley's geometric procedure for finding the reciprocals of the chords of a regular polygon from their star polygons also finds the rotational geodesics of any polytope of any dimensionality.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
== Introduction ==
Steinbach discovered the Diagonal Product Formula and the Golden Fields family of ratios of diagonal to side in the regular polygons. He showed how this family extends beyond the pentagon {5} with its well-known golden bisection proportional to 𝜙, finding that the heptagon {7} has an analogous trisection, the nonagon {9} has an analogous quadrasection, and the hendecagon {11} has an analogous pentasection, an extended family of golden proportions with quasiperiodic properties. 

Kappraff and Adamson extended these findings in plane geometry to a theory of Generalized Fibonacci Sequences, showing that the Golden Fields not only do not end with the hendecagon, they form an infinite number of periodic trajectories when operated on by the Mandelbrot operator. They found a relation between the edges of star polygons and dynamical systems in the state of chaos, revealing a connection between chaos theory, number, and rotations in Coxeter Euclidean geometry. 

Fontaine and Hurley examined Steinbach's finding that the length of each chord of a regular polygon is both the product of two chords and the sum of a set of smaller chords, so that in rotations to add is to multiply. They illustrated Steinbach's sets of additive chords lying parallel to each other in the plane (pointing in the same direction), and by applying Steinbach's formula more generally they found another summation relation of signed parallel chords (pointing in opposite directions) which relates each chord length to its reciprocal, and relates the summation to a distinct star polygon rotation. 

We examine these remarkable findings (which stem from study of the chords of humble regular polygons) in higher-dimensional spaces, specifically in the chords, polygons and rotations of the [[120-cell]], the largest four-dimensional regular convex polytope.

== Visualizing the 120-cell ==
{| class=&quot;wikitable floatright&quot; width=&quot;400&quot;
|style=&quot;vertical-align:top&quot;|[[File:120-cell.gif|200px]]&lt;br&gt;Orthographic projection of the 600-point 120-cell &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\{5,3,3\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; performing a [[W:SO(4)#Geometry of 4D rotations|simple rotation]].{{Sfn|Hise|2011|loc=File:120-cell.gif|ps=; &quot;Created by Jason Hise with Maya and Macromedia Fireworks. A 3D projection of a 120-cell performing a [[W:SO(4)#Geometry of 4D rotations|simple rotation]].&quot;}} In this simplified rendering only the 120-cell's own edges are shown; its 29 interior chords are not rendered. Therefore even though it is translucent, only its outer surface is visible. The complex interior parts of the 120-cell, all its inscribed 5-cells, 16-cells, 8-cells, 24-cells, 600-cells and its much larger inventory of polyhedra, are completely invisible in this view, as none of their edges are rendered at all.
|style=&quot;vertical-align:top&quot;|[[File:Ortho solid 016-uniform polychoron p33-t0.png|200px]]&lt;br&gt;Orthographic projection of the 600-point [[W:Great grand stellated 120-cell|great grand stellated 120-cell]] &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\{\tfrac{5}{2},3,3\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;.{{Sfn|Ruen: Great grand stellated 120-cell|2007}} The 120-cell is its convex hull. The projection to the left renders only the 120-cell's shortest chord, its 1200 edges. The projection above also renders only one of the 120-cell's 30 chords, the edges of its 120 inscribed regular 5-cells. The 120-cell itself (the convex hull) is invisible in this view, as its edges are not rendered.
|}

[[120-cell#Geometry|The 120-cell is the maximally complex regular 4-polytope]], containing inscribed instances of every regular 1-, 2-, 3-, and 4-polytope, except the regular polygons of more than {15} sides. 

The 120-cell is the convex hull of a regular [[120-cell#Relationships among interior polytopes|compound of each of the 6 regular convex 4-polytopes]]. They are the [[5-cell|5-point (5-cell) 4-simplex]], the [[16-cell|8-point (16-cell) 4-orthoplex]], the [[W:Tesseract|16-point (8-cell) tesseract]], the [[24-cell|24-point (24-cell)]], the [[600-cell|120-point (600-cell)]], and the [[120-cell|600-point (120-cell)]]. The 120-cell is the convex hull of a compound of 120 disjoint regular 5-cells, of 75 disjoint 16-cells, of 25 disjoint 24-cells, and of 5 disjoint 600-cells.

The 120-cell contains an even larger inventory of irregular polytopes, created by the intersection of multiple instances of these component regular 4-polytopes. Many are quite unexpected, because they do not occur as components of any regular polytope smaller than the 120-cell. As just one example among the [[120-cell#Concentric hulls|sections of the 120-cell]], there is an irregular 24-point polyhedron with 16 triangle faces and 4 nonagon {9} faces.{{Sfn|Moxness|}}

Most renderings of the 120-cell, like the rotating projection here, only illustrate its outer surface, which is a honeycomb of face-bonded dodecahedral cells. Only the objects in its 3-dimensional surface are rendered, namely the 120 dodecahedra, their pentagon faces, and their edges. Although the 120-cell has chords of 30 distinct lengths, in this kind of simplified rendering only the 120-cell's own edges (its shortest chord) are shown. Its 29 interior chords, the edges of objects in the interior of the 120-cell, are not rendered, so interior objects are not visible at all.

Visualizing the complete interior of the 600-vertex 120-cell in a single image is impractical because of its complexity. Only four 120-cell edges are incident at each vertex, but [[120-cell#Chords|600 chords (of all 30 lengths)]] are incident at ''each'' vertex.

== Compounds in the 120-cell ==
The 8-point (16-cell), not the 5-point (5-cell), is the smallest building block; it compounds to every larger regular 4-polytope. The 5-point (5-cell) does compound to the 600-point (120-cell), but it does not fit into any smaller regular 4-polytope. 

The 8-point (16-cell) compounds by 2 in the 16-point (8-cell), and by 3 in the 24-point (24-cell). The 16-point (8-cell) compounds in the 24-point (24-cell) by 3 non-disjoint instances of itself, with each of the 24 vertices shared by two 16-point (8-cells). The 24-point (24-cell) compounds by 5 disjoint instances of itself in the 120-point (600-cell), and the 120-point (600-cell) compounds by 5 disjoint instances of itself in the 600-point (120-cell).

The 24-point (24-cell) also compounds by &lt;math&gt;5^2&lt;/math&gt; non-disjoint instances of itself in the 120-point (600-cell); it compounds in 5 disjoint instances of itself, 10 (not 5) different ways. Whichever set of 5 disjoint 24-point (24-cells) are assembled, the resulting 120-point (600-cell) contains 25 distinct 24-point (24-cells), not just 5 (or 10). This implies that 15 disjoint 8-point (16-cells) will construct a 120-point (600-cell), which will contain 75 distinct 8-point (16-cells). 

The 600-point (120-cell) is 5 disjoint 120-point (600-cells), just 2 different ways (not 5 or 10 ways), so it is 10 distinct 120-point (600-cells). This implies that the 8-point (16-cell) compounds by 3 times &lt;math&gt;5^2&lt;/math&gt; (75) disjoint instances of itself in the 600-point (120-cell), which contains &lt;math&gt;3^2&lt;/math&gt; times  &lt;math&gt;5^2&lt;/math&gt; (225) distinct instances of the 24-point (24-cell), and  &lt;math&gt;3^3&lt;/math&gt; times &lt;math&gt;5^2&lt;/math&gt; (675) distinct instances of the 8-point (16-cell). 

These facts were discovered painstakingly by various researchers, and no one has found a general rule governing subsumption relations among regular polytopes. The reasons for some of their numeric incidence relations are far from obvious. [[W:Pieter Hendrik Schoute|Schoute]] was the first to see that the 120-point (600-cell) is a compound of 5 24-point (24-cells) ''10 different ways'', and after he saw it a hundred years lapsed until Denney, Hooker, Johnson, Robinson, Butler &amp; Claiborne proved his result, and showed why.{{Sfn|Denney, Hooker, Johnson, Robinson, Butler &amp; Claiborne|2020|loc=''The geometry of H4 polytopes''}}

So much for the compounds of 16-cells. The 120-cell is also the convex hull of the compound of 120 disjoint regular 5-cells. That stellated compound (without its convex hull of 120-cell edges) is the [[w:Great_grand_stellated_120-cell|great grand stellated 120-cell]] illustrated above, the final regular [[W:Stellation|stellation]] of the 120-cell, and the only [[W:Schläfli-Hess polychoron|regular star 4-polytope]] to have the 120-cell for its convex hull. The edges of the great grand stellated 120-cell are &lt;math&gt;\phi^6&lt;/math&gt; as long as those of its 120-cell [[W:List of polyhedral stellations#Stellation process|stellation core]] deep inside.

The compound of 120 disjoint 5-point (5-cells) can be seen to be equivalent to the compound of 5 disjoint 120-point (600-cells), as follows. Beginning with a single 120-point (600-cell), expand each vertex into a regular 5-cell, by adding 4 new equidistant vertices, such that the 5 vertices form a regular 5-cell inscribed in the 3-sphere. The 120 5-cells are disjoint, and the 600 vertices form 5 disjoint 120-point (600-cells): a 120-cell.

== Thirty distinguished distances ==
The 30 numbers listed in the table are all-important in Euclidean geometry. A case can be made on symmetry grounds that their squares are the 30 most important numbers between 0 and 4. The 30 rows of the table are the 30 distinct [[120-cell#Geodesic rectangles|chord lengths of the unit-radius 120-cell]], the largest regular convex 4-polytope. Since the 120-cell subsumes all smaller regular polytopes, its 30 chords are the complete chord set of all the regular polytopes that can be constructed in the first four dimensions of Euclidean space, except for regular polygons of more than 15 sides.

{| class=&quot;wikitable&quot; style=&quot;white-space:nowrap;text-align:center&quot;
!rowspan=2|&lt;math&gt;c_t&lt;/math&gt;
!rowspan=2|arc
!rowspan=2|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{n}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
!rowspan=2|&lt;math&gt;\left\{p\right\}&lt;/math&gt;
!rowspan=2|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;m\left\{\frac{k}{d}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
!rowspan=2|Steinbach roots
!colspan=7|Chord lengths of the unit 120-cell
|-
!colspan=5|unit-radius length &lt;math&gt;c_t&lt;/math&gt;
!colspan=2|unit-edge length &lt;math&gt;c_t/c_1&lt;/math&gt;&lt;br&gt;in 120-cell of radius &lt;math&gt;c_8=\sqrt{2}\phi^2&lt;/math&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{1,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;15.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{30\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{30\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{4,1}-c_{2,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{7-3 \sqrt{5}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.270091&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\sqrt{2} \phi ^2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2 \phi ^4}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.072949}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{2,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;25.2{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{2}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2 \left\{15\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \left(c_{18,1}-c_{4,1}\right)&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{3-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.437016&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\sqrt{2} \phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2 \phi ^2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.190983}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi &lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.61803&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{3,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;36{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{3}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{10\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;3 \left\{\frac{10}{3}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \left(\sqrt{5}-1\right) c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \left(\sqrt{5}-1\right)&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.618034&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{\phi ^2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.381966}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2} \phi &lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2.28825&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{4,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;41.4{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{60}{7}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{c_{8,1}}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.707107&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2.61803&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{5,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;44.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{4}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2 \left\{\frac{15}{2}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3} c_{2,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{9-3 \sqrt{5}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.756934&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}}}{\phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2 \phi ^2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.572949}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3} \phi &lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2.80252&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{6,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;49.1{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{120}{17}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{5-\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{5-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.831254&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\frac{1}{\phi }}}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{\sqrt{5}}{2 \phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.690983}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\phi ^3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;3.07768&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{7,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;56.0{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{20}{3}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}-\frac{1}{\phi }} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}-\frac{2}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.93913&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{\frac{\psi }{\phi }}}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{\psi }{2 \phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.881966}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\psi  \phi ^3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;3.47709&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;60{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{5}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{6\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{6\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;3.70246&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{9,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;66.1{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{40}{7}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}-\frac{1}{2 \phi }} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}-\frac{1}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.09132&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{\frac{\chi }{\phi }}}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{\chi }{2 \phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.19098}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\chi  \phi ^3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;4.04057&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{10,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;69.8{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{60}{11}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi  c_{4,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1+\sqrt{5}}{2 \sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.14412&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\phi }{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{\phi ^2}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.30902}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^3&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;4.23607&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{11,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;72{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{6}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{5\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{5\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\frac{1}{\phi }} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\frac{2}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.17557&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3-\phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3-\phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.38197}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2} \sqrt{3-\phi } \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;4.3525&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{12,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;75.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{24}{5}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.22474&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;4.53457&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{13,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;81.1{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{60}{13}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{9-\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{9-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.30038&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{9-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{4} \left(9-\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.69098}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2} \left(9-\sqrt{5}\right)} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;4.8146&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{14,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;84.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{40}{9}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\phi } c_{8,1}}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{1+\sqrt{5}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.345&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\phi }}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{\sqrt{5} \phi }{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.80902}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\phi ^5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;4.9798&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{15,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;90.0{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{7}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{4\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{4\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2 c_{4,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.41421&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2 \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;5.23607&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{16,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;95.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{120}{29}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{11-\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{11-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.4802&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{11-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{4} \left(11-\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.19098}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2} \left(11-\sqrt{5}\right)} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;5.48037&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{17,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;98.9{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{120}{31}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{7+\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{7+\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.51954&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{7+\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{4} \left(7+\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.30902}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\psi  \phi ^5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;5.62605&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{18,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;104.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{8}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{15}{4}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.58114&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{5} \sqrt{\phi ^4}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;5.8541&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{19,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;108.0{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{9}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{10}{3}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{3,1}+c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \left(1+\sqrt{5}\right)&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.61803&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi &lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1+\phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.61803}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2} \phi ^3&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;5.9907&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{20,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;110.2{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{120}{7}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{13-\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{13-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.64042&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{13-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{4} \left(13-\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.69098}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2 \sqrt{8-\phi ^2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.07359&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{21,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;113.9{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{60}{19}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}+\frac{1}{1+\sqrt{5}}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}+\frac{1}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.67601&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}+\frac{1}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}+\frac{1}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.80902}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2 \sqrt{8-\frac{\chi }{\phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.20537&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{22,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;120{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{10}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{3\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{3\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.73205&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{6} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.41285&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{23,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;124.0{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{120}{41}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{\phi }+\frac{5}{2}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}+\frac{2}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.7658&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{4-\frac{\psi }{2 \phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{4-\frac{\psi }{2 \phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.11803}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\chi  \phi ^5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.53779&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{24,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;130.9{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{20}{7}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{11+\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{11+\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.81907&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{11+\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{4} \left(11+\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.30902}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2 \sqrt{8-\frac{\sqrt{5}}{\phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.73503&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{25,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;135.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{11}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{11}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{7+3 \sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{7+3 \sqrt{5}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.85123&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\phi ^2}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{\phi ^4}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.42705}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^4&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.8541&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{26,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;138.6{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{12}{5}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{7}{2}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{7}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.87083&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{7}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{7}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{7} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.92667&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{27,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;144{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{12}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{5}{2}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2} \left(5+\sqrt{5}\right)} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2} \left(5+\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.90211&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\phi +2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2+\phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.61803}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2 \sqrt{2 \phi +4}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;7.0425&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{28,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;154.8{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{13}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{13}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{13+\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{13+\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.95167&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{13+\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{4} \left(13+\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.80902}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2 \sqrt{8-\frac{1}{\phi ^2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;7.22598&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{29,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;164.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{14}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{15}{7}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi  c_{12,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{\frac{3}{2}} \left(1+\sqrt{5}\right)&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.98168&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}} \phi &lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3 \phi ^2}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.92705}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3} \phi ^3&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;7.33708&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{30,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;180{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{15}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{2\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{2\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2 c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2.&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{4}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{4.}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2 \sqrt{2} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;7.40492&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|rowspan=4 colspan=6|
|rowspan=4 colspan=4|
&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; is the golden ratio:&lt;br&gt;
&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2-\phi -1=0&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;&lt;br&gt;
&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\phi }+1=\phi&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;, and: &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi+1=\phi^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;&lt;br&gt;
&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\phi }::1::\phi ::\phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;&lt;br&gt;
&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1/\phi&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; and &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; are the golden sections of &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;:&lt;br&gt;
&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi +\frac{1}{\phi }=\sqrt{5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|colspan=2|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi = (\sqrt{5} + 1)/2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.618034&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|colspan=2|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\chi = (3\sqrt{5} + 1)/2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;3.854102&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|colspan=2|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\psi = (3\sqrt{5} - 1)/2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2.854102&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|colspan=2|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\psi = 11/\chi = 22/(3\sqrt{5} + 1)&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2.854102&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|}

...

== The 8-point regular polytopes ==
In 2-space we have the regular 8-point octagon, in 3-space the regular 8-point cube, and in 4-space the regular 8-point [[W:16-cell|16-cell]].

A planar octagon with rigid edges of unit length has chords of length:

:&lt;math&gt;r_1=1,r_2=\sqrt{2+\sqrt{2}} \approx 1.84776,r_3=1+\sqrt{2} \approx 2.41421,r_4=\sqrt{4 + \sqrt{8}} \approx 2.61313&lt;/math&gt;

The chord ratio &lt;math&gt;r_3=1+\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt; is a geometrical proportion, the [[W:Silver ratio|silver ratio]]. Fontaine and Hurley's procedure for obtaining the reciprocal of a chord tells us that:

:&lt;math&gt;r_3-r_1-r_1=1/r_3 \approx 0.41421&lt;/math&gt;

Notice that &lt;math&gt;1/r_3=\sqrt{2}-1=r_3-2&lt;/math&gt;.

If we embed this planar octagon in 3-space, we can make it skew, repositioning its vertices so that each is one unit-edge length distant from three others instead of two others, so we obtain a unit-edge cube with chords of length:

:&lt;math&gt;r_1=1, r_2=\sqrt{2}, r_3=\sqrt{3}, r_4=\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;

If we embed this cube in 4-space, we can skew it some more, repositioning its vertices so that each is one unit-edge length distant from six others instead of three others, so we obtain a unit-edge 4-polytope with chords of length:

:&lt;math&gt;r_1=1,r_2=1,r_3=1,r_4=\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;

All of its chords except its long diameters are the same unit length as its edge. In fact they are its 24 edges, and it is a 16-cell of radius &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1/\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;.

[[File:octagon16cell.png|thumb|Cell-first orthogonal projection of a regular 16-cell. Only its edges are shown; its long diameter chords are not drawn. All of the 24 edges are the same length and none lie in the view plane.]]

The [[16-cell]] is the [[W:Regular convex 4-polytope|regular convex 4-polytope]] with [[W:Schläfli symbol|Schläfli symbol]] {3,3,4}. It has 8 vertices, 24 edges, 32 equilateral triangle faces, and 16 regular tetrahedron cells. It is the [[16-cell#Octahedral dipyramid|four-dimensional analogue of the octahedron]], and each of its four orthogonal central hyperplanes is an octahedron.

The only planar regular polygons found in the 16-cell are face triangles and central plane squares, but the 16-cell also contains a regular skew octagon, its [[W:Petrie polygon|Petrie polygon]]. The chords of this regular octagon, which lies skew in 4-space, are those given above for the 16-cell, as opposed to those for the cube or the regular octagon in the plane. The 16-cell has 3 such Petrie octagons, which share the same 8 vertices but have disjoint sets of 8 edges each.

The regular octad has higher symmetry in 4-space than it does in 2-space. The 16-cell is the 4-orthoplex, the simplest regular 4-polytope after the [[5-cell|4-simplex]]. All the larger regular 4-polytopes, including the 120-cell, are compounds of the 16-cell. The regular octagon exhibits this high symmetry only when embedded in 4-space at the vertices of the 16-cell.

The 16-cell constitutes an [[W:Orthonormal basis|orthonormal basis]] for the choice of a 4-dimensional Cartesian reference frame, because its vertices define four orthogonal axes. The eight vertices of a unit-radius 16-cell are (±1, 0, 0, 0), (0, ±1, 0, 0), (0, 0, ±1, 0), (0, 0, 0, ±1). All vertices are connected by &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; edges except opposite pairs. In this convenient unit-radius 4-coordinate system, the original planar octagon we started with had chords of length:

:&lt;math&gt;r_1=\sqrt{2},r_2=\sqrt{2(2+\sqrt{2})} \approx 2.61313,r_3=2+\sqrt{2} \approx 3.41421,r_4=2 \sqrt{2+\sqrt{2}} \approx 3.69552&lt;/math&gt;

none of which chords occur in a 16-cell or 120-cell except &lt;math&gt;r_1=\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;. 

In the unit-radius 120-cell, the great square edge chord &lt;math&gt;c_{15} = \sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt; occurs in 675 distinct (75 disjoint) 16-cells. The vertex coordinates of each 16-cell form 6 central squares lying in 6 pairwise [[W:Orthogonal|orthogonal]] coordinate planes. Great squares in ''opposite'' planes that do not share an axis (e.g. in the ''xy'' and ''wz'' planes) are completely disjoint (they do not intersect at any vertices). These planes are [[W:Completely orthogonal|completely orthogonal]].{{Efn|name=Six orthogonal planes of the Cartesian basis}}

[[W:Rotations in 4-dimensional Euclidean space|Rotations in 4-dimensional Euclidean space]] can be seen as the composition of two 2-dimensional rotations in completely orthogonal planes. The general rotation in 4-space is a double rotation in pairs of completely orthogonal planes. The two completely orthogonal planes are called invariant rotation planes, because all points in the plane rotate on circles that remain in the plane, even as the whole plane tilts sideways (like a coin flipping) into another plane. The two completely orthogonal rotations of each plane (like a wheel, and like a coin flipping) are simultaneous but independent, in that they are not geometrically constrained to turn at the same rate. However, the most circular kind of rotation (as opposed to an elliptical double rotation of a rigid spherical object) occurs when the completely orthogonal planes do rotate through the same angle in the same time interval. Such equi-angled double rotations are called [[w:SO(4)#Isoclinic_rotations|isoclinic]], also [[w:William_Kingdon_Clifford|Clifford]] displacements.

The 16-cell is the simplest possible frame in which to [[16-cell#Rotations|observe 4-dimensional rotations]] because its characteristic isoclinic rotations feature a single pair of invariant rotation planes. In the 16-cell an isoclinic rotation by 90° in any pair of invariant completely orthogonal square central planes takes every square central plane to its completely orthogonal square central plane, and takes every vertex to its antipodal vertex 180° degrees away. All the vertices move at once, displaced 180° in 8 orthogonal directions, and the rigid 16-cell assumes a new orientation in 4-space. The trajectory of each vertex is a one-eighth segment of its [[W:Geodesic|geodesic]] orbit. Its entire orbit traces a circular helix in 4-space, and also traces a great circle in one of the two completely orthogonal invariant rotation planes, as they tilt sideways into each other's plane. When the isoclinic rotation is continued in the same rotational direction through an additional 90°, each vertex is again displaced 180° to its antipodal position, but from the new orientation where the vertex is on the opposite side of the 16-cell departing in the opposite direction. In the course of a 720° isoclinic rotation each vertex departs from all 8 vertex positions just once, and returns to its original position.

== Hypercubes ==
The long diameter of the unit-edge [[W:Hypercube|hypercube]] of dimension &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;n&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; is &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{n}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;, so the unit-edge [[w:Tesseract|4-hypercube, the 16-point (8-cell) tesseract,]] has chords:
:&lt;math&gt;r_1=\sqrt{1},r_2=\sqrt{2},r_3=\sqrt{3},r_4=\sqrt{4}&lt;/math&gt;
Uniquely in its 4-dimensional case, the hypercube's edge length equals its radius, like the hexagon. We call such polytopes ''radially equilateral'', because they can be constructed from equilateral triangles which meet at their center, each contributing two radii and an edge. The cuboctahedron and the 24-cell are also radially equilateral.

The [[W:Tesseract|tesseract]] is the [[W:Regular convex 4-polytope|regular convex 4-polytope]] with [[W:Schläfli symbol|Schläfli symbol]] {4,3,3}. It has 16 vertices, 32 edges, 24 square faces, and 8 cube cells. It is the four-dimensional analogue of the cube.

The tesseract is the [[W:Dual polytope|dual polytope]] of the 16-cell. They have the same Petrie polygon, the regular octagon, but the tesseract contains 2 disjoint instances and 4 distinct instances of the skew octagon. We can construct the tesseract the way we constructed the 16-cell, by skewing a planar octagon's edges so they become edges of the 4-polytope. Because the tesseract has 16 vertices we will need two planar octagons, and to start we must embedded them in 4-space as completely orthogonal planes that intersect at only one point, their common center. Because the tesseract is radially equilateral (unlike the 16-cell), to build a unit-radius tesseract we start with our original octagon of unit-edge length, rather than the octagon of edge length &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; that we needed to build the unit-radius 16-cell.

For our tesseract construction we skew each planar octagon into a cube, so we have a compound of two completely orthogonal cubes. Provided the planes were completely orthogonal in 4-space and we skewed them both the same way, the 16 vertices will be the vertices of a tesseract with half of its 32 edges missing.

The 16-point tesseract is the convex hull of a compound of two 8-point 16-cells, in exact dimensional analogy to the way the 8-point cube is the convex hull of a [[W:Stellated octahedron|compound of two regular 4-point tetrahedra]]. The [[W:Demihypercube|demihypercubes]] occupy alternate vertices of the hypercubes. The diagonals of the square faces of the unit-radius tesseract are the &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; edges of two unit-radius 16-cells, which are also the edges of the square central planes.

Because the tesseract contains two 16-cells in alternate positions it has two sets of 6 orthogonal square central planes. Two angles are required to specify the relationship between two planes in 4-space. Pairs of planes within each 16-cell are 90° apart in one angle, and either 0° or 90° apart in the other angle. They are 90° apart in both angles if and only if they are completely orthogonal planes, 90° apart by isoclinic rotation, with no vertices in common and their corresponding vertices 180° apart. Otherwise they are 0° apart in one of the angles, 90° apart by simple rotation with their corresponding vertices 90° apart, and they intersect in one axis and lie in a common 3-dimensional hyperplane.{{Efn|A double rotation in which one of the two angles of rotation is 0°, so that one of the completely orthogonal invariant planes does not rotate, is called a simple rotation. Ordinary rotations observed in a 3-dimensional space are simple rotations.}}

A pair of square central planes from alternate 16-cells are 60° apart by isoclinic rotation, with their corresponding vertices 120° apart. The planes are not orthogonal or parallel, so they intersect in a line somewhere, but they have no vertices in common, they have no 3-dimensional hyperplane in common, and they cannot reach each other by simple rotation. Such pairs of objects are called [[W:Clifford parallel|Clifford parallel]] because all their corresponding pairs of vertices are the same distance apart, although they are not parallel in the usual sense, because they have a common center. Not only the alternate 16-cells' corresponding square central planes, but also the 16-cells themselves, are Clifford parallel objects.

We can rotate the tesseract isoclinically the way we rotated the 16-cell, by 90° in two completely orthogonal invariant square central planes, with the same effect on both alternate 16-cells. In the course of a 720° isoclinic rotation in invariant square central planes each vertex departs from all 8 vertex positions of its 16-cell just once and returns to its original position, but it does not visit the vertex positions of the other 16-cell. The skew octagon geodesic orbits of the 16 vertices are disjoint circular helixes, and those 16 circular helixes are Clifford parallel objects.

== The 24-cell ==
In 2-space we have the radially equilateral 6-point hexagon. In 3-space we have the radially equilateral 12-point cuboctahedron, with 4 hexagonal central planes. In 4-space we have the radially equilateral 24-point 24-cell, with 4 cuboctahedral central hyperplanes and 16 hexagonal central planes.

Great hexagons are a rounder choice than great squares for the invariant rotation planes in which to rotate a 4-polytope isoclinically. The complete hexagonal isoclinic revolution requires 720° like the complete square isoclinic revolution, but it is completed in 6 chordal steps of 120° each rather than 8 chordal steps of 180° each.

...

== The 600-cell ==

...

== Finally the 120-cell ==

...

== Conclusions ==

Fontaine and Hurley's discovery is more than a formula for the reciprocal of a regular ''n''-polygon diagonal. It also yields the discrete sequence of isocline chords of the distinct isoclinic rotation characteristic of a ''d''-dimensional regular polytope. The characteristic rotational chord sequence of the ''d''-polytope can be represented geometrically in two dimensions on a distinct star polygon, but it lies on a geodesic circle through ''d''-dimensional space. Fontaine and Hurley discovered the geodesic topology of polytopes generally. Their procedure will reveal the geodesics of arbitrary non-uniform polytopes, since it can be applied to a polytope of any dimensionality and irregularity, by first fitting the polytope to the smallest regular polygon whose chords include its chords.

Fontaine and Hurley's discovery of a chordal formula for isoclinic rotations closes the circuit on Kappraff and Adamson's discovery of a rotational connection between dynamical systems, Steinbach's golden fields, and Coxeter's Euclidean geometry of ''n'' dimensions. Application of the Fontaine and Hurley procedure in higher-dimensional spaces demonstrates why the connection exists: because polytope sequences generally, from Steinbach's golden polygon chord sequences, to chord sequences in isoclinic rotation helixes, to subsumption relations in the sequence of regular 4-polytopes, arise as expressions of the reflections and rotations of distinct Coxeter symmetry groups, when those various groups interact.

== Appendix: Sequence of regular 4-polytopes ==
{{Regular convex 4-polytopes|wiki=W:|columns=7}}

== Notes ==
{{Notelist}}

== Citations ==
{{Reflist}}

== References ==
{{Refbegin}}
* {{Cite journal | last=Steinbach | first=Peter | year=1997 | title=Golden fields: A case for the Heptagon | journal=Mathematics Magazine | volume=70 | issue=Feb 1997 | pages=22–31 | doi=10.1080/0025570X.1997.11996494 | jstor=2691048 | ref={{SfnRef|Steinbach|1997}} }}
* {{Cite journal | last=Steinbach | first=Peter | year=2000 | title=Sections Beyond Golden| journal=Bridges: Mathematical Connections in Art, Music and Science | issue=2000 | pages=35-44 | url=https://archive.bridgesmathart.org/2000/bridges2000-35.pdf | ref={{SfnRef|Steinbach|2000}}}}
* {{Cite journal | last1=Kappraff | first1=Jay | last2=Jablan | first2=Slavik | last3=Adamson | first3=Gary | last4=Sazdanovich | first4=Radmila | year=2004 | title=Golden Fields, Generalized Fibonacci Sequences, and Chaotic Matrices | journal=Forma | volume=19 | pages=367-387 | url=https://archive.bridgesmathart.org/2005/bridges2005-369.pdf | ref={{SfnRef|Kappraff, Jablan, Adamson &amp; Sazdanovich|2004}} }}
* {{Cite journal | last1=Kappraff | first1=Jay | last2=Adamson | first2=Gary | year=2004 | title=Polygons and Chaos | journal=Dynamical Systems and Geometric Theories | url=https://archive.bridgesmathart.org/2001/bridges2001-67.pdf | ref={{SfnRef|Kappraff &amp; Adamson|2004}} }}
* {{Cite journal | last1=Fontaine | first1=Anne | last2=Hurley | first2=Susan | year=2006 | title=Proof by Picture: Products and Reciprocals of Diagonal Length Ratios in the Regular Polygon | journal=Forum Geometricorum | volume=6 | pages=97-101 | url=https://scispace.com/pdf/proof-by-picture-products-and-reciprocals-of-diagonal-length-1aian8mgp9.pdf }}
{{Refend}}</text>
      <sha1>iajbhpdlxnbwcyycuwshmektvr6akj6</sha1>
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    <revision>
      <id>2808072</id>
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        <username>Dc.samizdat</username>
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      <text bytes="45714" sha1="cnfjrbgnlhiv18ei4ljd84sksknrfgo" xml:space="preserve">{{align|center|David Brooks Christie}}
{{align|center|dc@samizdat.org}}
{{align|center|Draft in progress}}
{{align|center|January 2026 - April 2026}}

&lt;blockquote&gt;Steinbach discovered the formula for the ratios of diagonal to side in the regular polygons. Fontaine and Hurley extended this result, discovering a formula for the reciprocal of a regular polygon chord derived geometrically from the chord's star polygon. We observe that these findings in plane geometry apply more generally, to polytopes of any dimensionality. Fontaine and Hurley's geometric procedure for finding the reciprocals of the chords of a regular polygon from their star polygons also finds the rotational geodesics of any polytope of any dimensionality.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
== Introduction ==
Steinbach discovered the Diagonal Product Formula and the Golden Fields family of ratios of diagonal to side in the regular polygons. He showed how this family extends beyond the pentagon {5} with its well-known golden bisection proportional to 𝜙, finding that the heptagon {7} has an analogous trisection, the nonagon {9} has an analogous quadrasection, and the hendecagon {11} has an analogous pentasection, an extended family of golden proportions with quasiperiodic properties. 

Kappraff and Adamson extended these findings in plane geometry to a theory of Generalized Fibonacci Sequences, showing that the Golden Fields not only do not end with the hendecagon, they form an infinite number of periodic trajectories when operated on by the Mandelbrot operator. They found a relation between the edges of star polygons and dynamical systems in the state of chaos, revealing a connection between chaos theory, number, and rotations in Coxeter Euclidean geometry. 

Fontaine and Hurley examined Steinbach's finding that the length of each chord of a regular polygon is both the product of two chords and the sum of a set of smaller chords, so that in rotations to add is to multiply. They illustrated Steinbach's sets of additive chords lying parallel to each other in the plane (pointing in the same direction), and by applying Steinbach's formula more generally they found another summation relation of signed parallel chords (pointing in opposite directions) which relates each chord length to its reciprocal, and relates the summation to a distinct star polygon rotation. 

We examine these remarkable findings (which stem from study of the chords of humble regular polygons) in higher-dimensional spaces, specifically in the chords, polygons and rotations of the [[120-cell]], the largest four-dimensional regular convex polytope.

== Visualizing the 120-cell ==
{| class=&quot;wikitable floatright&quot; width=&quot;400&quot;
|style=&quot;vertical-align:top&quot;|[[File:120-cell.gif|200px]]&lt;br&gt;Orthographic projection of the 600-point 120-cell &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\{5,3,3\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; performing a [[W:SO(4)#Geometry of 4D rotations|simple rotation]].{{Sfn|Hise|2011|loc=File:120-cell.gif|ps=; &quot;Created by Jason Hise with Maya and Macromedia Fireworks. A 3D projection of a 120-cell performing a [[W:SO(4)#Geometry of 4D rotations|simple rotation]].&quot;}} In this simplified rendering only the 120-cell's own edges are shown; its 29 interior chords are not rendered. Therefore even though it is translucent, only its outer surface is visible. The complex interior parts of the 120-cell, all its inscribed 5-cells, 16-cells, 8-cells, 24-cells, 600-cells and its much larger inventory of polyhedra, are completely invisible in this view, as none of their edges are rendered at all.
|style=&quot;vertical-align:top&quot;|[[File:Ortho solid 016-uniform polychoron p33-t0.png|200px]]&lt;br&gt;Orthographic projection of the 600-point [[W:Great grand stellated 120-cell|great grand stellated 120-cell]] &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\{\tfrac{5}{2},3,3\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;.{{Sfn|Ruen: Great grand stellated 120-cell|2007}} The 120-cell is its convex hull. The projection to the left renders only the 120-cell's shortest chord, its 1200 edges. The projection above also renders only one of the 120-cell's 30 chords, the edges of its 120 inscribed regular 5-cells. The 120-cell itself (the convex hull) is invisible in this view, as its edges are not rendered.
|}

[[120-cell#Geometry|The 120-cell is the maximally complex regular 4-polytope]], containing inscribed instances of every regular 1-, 2-, 3-, and 4-polytope, except the regular polygons of more than {15} sides. 

The 120-cell is the convex hull of a regular [[120-cell#Relationships among interior polytopes|compound of each of the 6 regular convex 4-polytopes]]. They are the [[5-cell|5-point (5-cell) 4-simplex]], the [[16-cell|8-point (16-cell) 4-orthoplex]], the [[W:Tesseract|16-point (8-cell) tesseract]], the [[24-cell|24-point (24-cell)]], the [[600-cell|120-point (600-cell)]], and the [[120-cell|600-point (120-cell)]]. The 120-cell is the convex hull of a compound of 120 disjoint regular 5-cells, of 75 disjoint 16-cells, of 25 disjoint 24-cells, and of 5 disjoint 600-cells.

The 120-cell contains an even larger inventory of irregular polytopes, created by the intersection of multiple instances of these component regular 4-polytopes. Many are quite unexpected, because they do not occur as components of any regular polytope smaller than the 120-cell. As just one example among the [[120-cell#Concentric hulls|sections of the 120-cell]], there is an irregular 24-point polyhedron with 16 triangle faces and 4 nonagon {9} faces.{{Sfn|Moxness|}}

Most renderings of the 120-cell, like the rotating projection here, only illustrate its outer surface, which is a honeycomb of face-bonded dodecahedral cells. Only the objects in its 3-dimensional surface are rendered, namely the 120 dodecahedra, their pentagon faces, and their edges. Although the 120-cell has chords of 30 distinct lengths, in this kind of simplified rendering only the 120-cell's own edges (its shortest chord) are shown. Its 29 interior chords, the edges of objects in the interior of the 120-cell, are not rendered, so interior objects are not visible at all.

Visualizing the complete interior of the 600-vertex 120-cell in a single image is impractical because of its complexity. Only four 120-cell edges are incident at each vertex, but [[120-cell#Chords|600 chords (of all 30 lengths)]] are incident at ''each'' vertex.

== Compounds in the 120-cell ==
The 8-point (16-cell), not the 5-point (5-cell), is the smallest building block; it compounds to every larger regular 4-polytope. The 5-point (5-cell) does compound to the 600-point (120-cell), but it does not fit into any smaller regular 4-polytope. 

The 8-point (16-cell) compounds by 2 in the 16-point (8-cell), and by 3 in the 24-point (24-cell). The 16-point (8-cell) compounds in the 24-point (24-cell) by 3 non-disjoint instances of itself, with each of the 24 vertices shared by two 16-point (8-cells). The 24-point (24-cell) compounds by 5 disjoint instances of itself in the 120-point (600-cell), and the 120-point (600-cell) compounds by 5 disjoint instances of itself in the 600-point (120-cell).

The 24-point (24-cell) also compounds by &lt;math&gt;5^2&lt;/math&gt; non-disjoint instances of itself in the 120-point (600-cell); it compounds in 5 disjoint instances of itself, 10 (not 5) different ways. Whichever set of 5 disjoint 24-point (24-cells) are assembled, the resulting 120-point (600-cell) contains 25 distinct 24-point (24-cells), not just 5 (or 10). This implies that 15 disjoint 8-point (16-cells) will construct a 120-point (600-cell), which will contain 75 distinct 8-point (16-cells). 

The 600-point (120-cell) is 5 disjoint 120-point (600-cells), just 2 different ways (not 5 or 10 ways), so it is 10 distinct 120-point (600-cells). This implies that the 8-point (16-cell) compounds by 3 times &lt;math&gt;5^2&lt;/math&gt; (75) disjoint instances of itself in the 600-point (120-cell), which contains &lt;math&gt;3^2&lt;/math&gt; times  &lt;math&gt;5^2&lt;/math&gt; (225) distinct instances of the 24-point (24-cell), and  &lt;math&gt;3^3&lt;/math&gt; times &lt;math&gt;5^2&lt;/math&gt; (675) distinct instances of the 8-point (16-cell). 

These facts were discovered painstakingly by various researchers, and no one has found a general rule governing subsumption relations among regular polytopes. The reasons for some of their numeric incidence relations are far from obvious. [[W:Pieter Hendrik Schoute|Schoute]] was the first to see that the 120-point (600-cell) is a compound of 5 24-point (24-cells) ''10 different ways'', and after he saw it a hundred years lapsed until Denney, Hooker, Johnson, Robinson, Butler &amp; Claiborne proved his result, and showed why.{{Sfn|Denney, Hooker, Johnson, Robinson, Butler &amp; Claiborne|2020|loc=''The geometry of H4 polytopes''}}

So much for the compounds of 16-cells. The 120-cell is also the convex hull of the compound of 120 disjoint regular 5-cells. That stellated compound (without its convex hull of 120-cell edges) is the [[w:Great_grand_stellated_120-cell|great grand stellated 120-cell]] illustrated above, the final regular [[W:Stellation|stellation]] of the 120-cell, and the only [[W:Schläfli-Hess polychoron|regular star 4-polytope]] to have the 120-cell for its convex hull. The edges of the great grand stellated 120-cell are &lt;math&gt;\phi^6&lt;/math&gt; as long as those of its 120-cell [[W:List of polyhedral stellations#Stellation process|stellation core]] deep inside.

The compound of 120 disjoint 5-point (5-cells) can be seen to be equivalent to the compound of 5 disjoint 120-point (600-cells), as follows. Beginning with a single 120-point (600-cell), expand each vertex into a regular 5-cell, by adding 4 new equidistant vertices, such that the 5 vertices form a regular 5-cell inscribed in the 3-sphere. The 120 5-cells are disjoint, and the 600 vertices form 5 disjoint 120-point (600-cells): a 120-cell.

== Thirty distinguished distances ==
The 30 numbers listed in the table are all-important in Euclidean geometry. A case can be made on symmetry grounds that their squares are the 30 most important numbers between 0 and 4. The 30 rows of the table are the 30 distinct [[120-cell#Geodesic rectangles|chord lengths of the unit-radius 120-cell]], the largest regular convex 4-polytope. Since the 120-cell subsumes all smaller regular polytopes, its 30 chords are the complete chord set of all the regular polytopes that can be constructed in the first four dimensions of Euclidean space, except for regular polygons of more than 15 sides.

{| class=&quot;wikitable&quot; style=&quot;white-space:nowrap;text-align:center&quot;
!rowspan=2|&lt;math&gt;c_t&lt;/math&gt;
!rowspan=2|arc
!rowspan=2|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{n}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
!rowspan=2|&lt;math&gt;\left\{p\right\}&lt;/math&gt;
!rowspan=2|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;m\left\{\frac{k}{d}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
!rowspan=2|Steinbach roots
!colspan=7|Chord lengths of the unit 120-cell
|-
!colspan=5|unit-radius length &lt;math&gt;c_t&lt;/math&gt;
!colspan=2|unit-edge length &lt;math&gt;c_t/c_1&lt;/math&gt;&lt;br&gt;in 120-cell of radius &lt;math&gt;c_8=\sqrt{2}\phi^2&lt;/math&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{1,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;15.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{30\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{30\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{4,1}-c_{2,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{7-3 \sqrt{5}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.270091&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\sqrt{2} \phi ^2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2 \phi ^4}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.072949}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{2,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;25.2{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{2}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2 \left\{15\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \left(c_{18,1}-c_{4,1}\right)&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{3-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.437016&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\sqrt{2} \phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2 \phi ^2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.190983}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi &lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.61803&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{3,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;36{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{3}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{10\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;3 \left\{\frac{10}{3}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \left(\sqrt{5}-1\right) c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \left(\sqrt{5}-1\right)&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.618034&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{\phi ^2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.381966}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2} \phi &lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2.28825&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{4,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;41.4{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{60}{7}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{c_{8,1}}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.707107&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2.61803&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{5,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;44.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{4}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2 \left\{\frac{15}{2}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3} c_{2,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{9-3 \sqrt{5}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.756934&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}}}{\phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2 \phi ^2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.572949}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3} \phi &lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2.80252&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{6,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;49.1{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{120}{17}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{5-\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{5-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.831254&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\frac{1}{\phi }}}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{\sqrt{5}}{2 \phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.690983}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\phi ^3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;3.07768&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{7,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;56.0{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{20}{3}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}-\frac{1}{\phi }} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}-\frac{2}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.93913&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{\frac{\psi }{\phi }}}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{\psi }{2 \phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.881966}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\psi  \phi ^3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;3.47709&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;60{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{5}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{6\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{6\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;3.70246&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{9,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;66.1{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{40}{7}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}-\frac{1}{2 \phi }} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}-\frac{1}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.09132&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{\frac{\chi }{\phi }}}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{\chi }{2 \phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.19098}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\chi  \phi ^3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;4.04057&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{10,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;69.8{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{60}{11}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi  c_{4,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1+\sqrt{5}}{2 \sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.14412&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\phi }{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{\phi ^2}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.30902}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^3&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;4.23607&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{11,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;72{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{6}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{5\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{5\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\frac{1}{\phi }} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\frac{2}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.17557&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3-\phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3-\phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.38197}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2} \sqrt{3-\phi } \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;4.3525&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{12,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;75.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{24}{5}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.22474&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;4.53457&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{13,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;81.1{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{60}{13}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{9-\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{9-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.30038&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{9-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{4} \left(9-\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.69098}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2} \left(9-\sqrt{5}\right)} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;4.8146&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{14,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;84.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{40}{9}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\phi } c_{8,1}}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{1+\sqrt{5}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.345&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\phi }}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{\sqrt{5} \phi }{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.80902}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\phi ^5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;4.9798&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{15,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;90.0{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{7}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{4\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{4\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2 c_{4,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.41421&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2 \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;5.23607&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{16,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;95.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{120}{29}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{11-\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{11-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.4802&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{11-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{4} \left(11-\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.19098}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2} \left(11-\sqrt{5}\right)} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;5.48037&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{17,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;98.9{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{120}{31}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{7+\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{7+\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.51954&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{7+\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{4} \left(7+\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.30902}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\psi  \phi ^5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;5.62605&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{18,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;104.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{8}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{15}{4}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.58114&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{5} \sqrt{\phi ^4}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;5.8541&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{19,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;108.0{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{9}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{10}{3}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{3,1}+c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \left(1+\sqrt{5}\right)&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.61803&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi &lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1+\phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.61803}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2} \phi ^3&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;5.9907&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{20,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;110.2{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{120}{7}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{13-\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{13-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.64042&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{13-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{4} \left(13-\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.69098}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2 \sqrt{8-\phi ^2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.07359&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{21,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;113.9{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{60}{19}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}+\frac{1}{1+\sqrt{5}}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}+\frac{1}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.67601&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}+\frac{1}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}+\frac{1}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.80902}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2 \sqrt{8-\frac{\chi }{\phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.20537&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{22,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;120{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{10}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{3\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{3\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.73205&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{6} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.41285&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{23,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;124.0{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{120}{41}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{\phi }+\frac{5}{2}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}+\frac{2}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.7658&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{4-\frac{\psi }{2 \phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{4-\frac{\psi }{2 \phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.11803}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\chi  \phi ^5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.53779&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{24,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;130.9{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{20}{7}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{11+\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{11+\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.81907&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{11+\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{4} \left(11+\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.30902}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2 \sqrt{8-\frac{\sqrt{5}}{\phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.73503&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{25,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;135.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{11}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{11}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{7+3 \sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{7+3 \sqrt{5}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.85123&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\phi ^2}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{\phi ^4}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.42705}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^4&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.8541&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{26,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;138.6{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{12}{5}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{7}{2}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{7}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.87083&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{7}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{7}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{7} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.92667&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{27,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;144{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{12}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{5}{2}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2} \left(5+\sqrt{5}\right)} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2} \left(5+\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.90211&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\phi +2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2+\phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.61803}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2 \sqrt{2 \phi +4}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;7.0425&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{28,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;154.8{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{13}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{13}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{13+\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{13+\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.95167&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{13+\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{4} \left(13+\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.80902}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2 \sqrt{8-\frac{1}{\phi ^2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;7.22598&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{29,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;164.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{14}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{15}{7}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi  c_{12,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{\frac{3}{2}} \left(1+\sqrt{5}\right)&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.98168&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}} \phi &lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3 \phi ^2}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.92705}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3} \phi ^3&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;7.33708&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{30,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;180{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{15}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{2\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{2\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2 c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2.&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{4}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{4.}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2 \sqrt{2} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;7.40492&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|rowspan=4 colspan=6|
|rowspan=4 colspan=4|
&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; is the golden ratio:&lt;br&gt;
&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2-\phi -1=0&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;&lt;br&gt;
&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\phi }+1=\phi&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;, and: &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi+1=\phi^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;&lt;br&gt;
&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\phi }::1::\phi ::\phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;&lt;br&gt;
&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1/\phi&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; and &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; are the golden sections of &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;:&lt;br&gt;
&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi +\frac{1}{\phi }=\sqrt{5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|colspan=2|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi = (\sqrt{5} + 1)/2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.618034&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|colspan=2|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\chi = (3\sqrt{5} + 1)/2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;3.854102&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|colspan=2|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\psi = (3\sqrt{5} - 1)/2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2.854102&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|colspan=2|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\psi = 11/\chi = 22/(3\sqrt{5} + 1)&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2.854102&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|}

...

== The 8-point regular polytopes ==
In 2-space we have the regular 8-point octagon, in 3-space the regular 8-point cube, and in 4-space the regular 8-point [[W:16-cell|16-cell]].

A planar octagon with rigid edges of unit length has chords of length:

:&lt;math&gt;r_1=1,r_2=\sqrt{2+\sqrt{2}} \approx 1.84776,r_3=1+\sqrt{2} \approx 2.41421,r_4=\sqrt{4 + \sqrt{8}} \approx 2.61313&lt;/math&gt;

The chord ratio &lt;math&gt;r_3=1+\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt; is a geometrical proportion, the [[W:Silver ratio|silver ratio]]. Fontaine and Hurley's procedure for obtaining the reciprocal of a chord tells us that:

:&lt;math&gt;r_3-r_1-r_1=1/r_3 \approx 0.41421&lt;/math&gt;

Notice that &lt;math&gt;1/r_3=\sqrt{2}-1=r_3-2&lt;/math&gt;.

If we embed this planar octagon in 3-space, we can make it skew, repositioning its vertices so that each is one unit-edge length distant from three others instead of two others, so we obtain a unit-edge cube with chords of length:

:&lt;math&gt;r_1=1, r_2=\sqrt{2}, r_3=\sqrt{3}, r_4=\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;

If we embed this cube in 4-space, we can skew it some more, repositioning its vertices so that each is one unit-edge length distant from six others instead of three others, so we obtain a unit-edge 4-polytope with chords of length:

:&lt;math&gt;r_1=1,r_2=1,r_3=1,r_4=\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;

All of its chords except its long diameters are the same unit length as its edge. In fact they are its 24 edges, and it is a 16-cell of radius &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1/\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;.

[[File:octagon16cell.png|thumb|Cell-first orthogonal projection of a regular 16-cell. Only its edges are shown; its long diameter chords are not drawn. All of the 24 edges are the same length and none lie in the view plane.]]

The [[16-cell]] is the [[W:Regular convex 4-polytope|regular convex 4-polytope]] with [[W:Schläfli symbol|Schläfli symbol]] {3,3,4}. It has 8 vertices, 24 edges, 32 equilateral triangle faces, and 16 regular tetrahedron cells. It is the [[16-cell#Octahedral dipyramid|four-dimensional analogue of the octahedron]], and each of its four orthogonal central hyperplanes is an octahedron.

The only planar regular polygons found in the 16-cell are face triangles and central plane squares, but the 16-cell also contains a regular skew octagon, its [[W:Petrie polygon|Petrie polygon]]. The chords of this regular octagon, which lies skew in 4-space, are those given above for the 16-cell, as opposed to those for the cube or the regular octagon in the plane. The 16-cell has 3 such Petrie octagons, which share the same 8 vertices but have disjoint sets of 8 edges each.

The regular octad has higher symmetry in 4-space than it does in 2-space. The 16-cell is the 4-orthoplex, the simplest regular 4-polytope after the [[5-cell|4-simplex]]. All the larger regular 4-polytopes, including the 120-cell, are compounds of the 16-cell. The regular octagon exhibits this high symmetry only when embedded in 4-space at the vertices of the 16-cell.

The 16-cell constitutes an [[W:Orthonormal basis|orthonormal basis]] for the choice of a 4-dimensional Cartesian reference frame, because its vertices define four orthogonal axes. The eight vertices of a unit-radius 16-cell are (±1, 0, 0, 0), (0, ±1, 0, 0), (0, 0, ±1, 0), (0, 0, 0, ±1). All vertices are connected by &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; edges except opposite pairs. In this convenient unit-radius 4-coordinate system, the original planar octagon we started with had chords of length:

:&lt;math&gt;r_1=\sqrt{2},r_2=\sqrt{2(2+\sqrt{2})} \approx 2.61313,r_3=2+\sqrt{2} \approx 3.41421,r_4=2 \sqrt{2+\sqrt{2}} \approx 3.69552&lt;/math&gt;

none of which chords occur in a 16-cell or 120-cell except &lt;math&gt;r_1=\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;. 

In the unit-radius 120-cell, the great square edge chord &lt;math&gt;c_{15} = \sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt; occurs in 675 distinct (75 disjoint) 16-cells. The vertex coordinates of each 16-cell form 6 central squares lying in 6 pairwise [[W:Orthogonal|orthogonal]] coordinate planes. Great squares in ''opposite'' planes that do not share an axis (e.g. in the ''xy'' and ''wz'' planes) are completely disjoint (they do not intersect at any vertices). These planes are [[W:Completely orthogonal|completely orthogonal]].{{Efn|name=Six orthogonal planes of the Cartesian basis}}

[[W:Rotations in 4-dimensional Euclidean space|Rotations in 4-dimensional Euclidean space]] can be seen as the composition of two 2-dimensional rotations in completely orthogonal planes. The general rotation in 4-space is a double rotation in pairs of completely orthogonal planes. Two completely orthogonal planes are called invariant planes of the rotation when all points in the plane rotate on circles that remain in the plane, even as the whole plane tilts sideways (like a coin flipping) into another plane. The two completely orthogonal rotations of each plane (like a wheel, and like a coin flipping) are simultaneous but independent, in that they are not geometrically constrained to turn at the same rate. However, the most circular kind of rotation (as opposed to an elliptical double rotation of a rigid spherical object) occurs when the invariant planes do rotate through the same angle in the same time interval. Such equi-angled double rotations are called [[w:SO(4)#Isoclinic_rotations|isoclinic]], also [[w:William_Kingdon_Clifford|Clifford]] displacements.

The 16-cell is the simplest possible frame in which to [[16-cell#Rotations|observe 4-dimensional rotations]] because its characteristic isoclinic rotations feature a single pair of invariant rotation planes. In the 16-cell an isoclinic rotation by 90° in any pair of invariant completely orthogonal square central planes takes every square central plane to its completely orthogonal square central plane, and takes every vertex to its antipodal vertex 180° degrees away. All the vertices move at once, displaced 180° in 8 orthogonal directions, and the rigid 16-cell assumes a new orientation in 4-space. The trajectory of each vertex is a one-eighth segment of its [[W:Geodesic|geodesic]] orbit. Its entire orbit traces a circular helix in 4-space, and also traces a great circle in one of the two completely orthogonal invariant rotation planes, as they tilt sideways into each other's plane. When the isoclinic rotation is continued in the same rotational direction through an additional 90°, each vertex is again displaced 180° to its antipodal position, but from the new orientation where the vertex is on the opposite side of the 16-cell departing in the opposite direction. In the course of a 720° isoclinic rotation each vertex departs from all 8 vertex positions just once, and returns to its original position.

== Hypercubes ==
The long diameter of the unit-edge [[W:Hypercube|hypercube]] of dimension &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;n&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; is &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{n}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;, so the unit-edge [[w:Tesseract|4-hypercube, the 16-point (8-cell) tesseract,]] has chords:
:&lt;math&gt;r_1=\sqrt{1},r_2=\sqrt{2},r_3=\sqrt{3},r_4=\sqrt{4}&lt;/math&gt;
Uniquely in its 4-dimensional case, the hypercube's edge length equals its radius, like the hexagon. We call such polytopes ''radially equilateral'', because they can be constructed from equilateral triangles which meet at their center, each contributing two radii and an edge. The cuboctahedron and the 24-cell are also radially equilateral.

The [[W:Tesseract|tesseract]] is the [[W:Regular convex 4-polytope|regular convex 4-polytope]] with [[W:Schläfli symbol|Schläfli symbol]] {4,3,3}. It has 16 vertices, 32 edges, 24 square faces, and 8 cube cells. It is the four-dimensional analogue of the cube.

The tesseract is the [[W:Dual polytope|dual polytope]] of the 16-cell. They have the same Petrie polygon, the regular octagon, but the tesseract contains 2 disjoint instances and 4 distinct instances of the skew octagon. We can construct the tesseract the way we constructed the 16-cell, by skewing a planar octagon's edges so they become edges of the 4-polytope. Because the tesseract has 16 vertices we will need two planar octagons, and to start we must embedded them in 4-space as completely orthogonal planes that intersect at only one point, their common center. Because the tesseract is radially equilateral (unlike the 16-cell), to build a unit-radius tesseract we start with our original octagon of unit-edge length, rather than the octagon of edge length &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; that we needed to build the unit-radius 16-cell.

For our tesseract construction we skew each planar octagon into a cube, so we have a compound of two completely orthogonal cubes. Provided the planes were completely orthogonal in 4-space and we skewed them both the same way, the 16 vertices will be the vertices of a tesseract with half of its 32 edges missing.

The 16-point tesseract is the convex hull of a compound of two 8-point 16-cells, in exact dimensional analogy to the way the 8-point cube is the convex hull of a [[W:Stellated octahedron|compound of two regular 4-point tetrahedra]]. The [[W:Demihypercube|demihypercubes]] occupy alternate vertices of the hypercubes. The diagonals of the square faces of the unit-radius tesseract are the &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; edges of two unit-radius 16-cells, which are also the edges of the square central planes.

Because the tesseract contains two 16-cells in alternate positions it has two sets of 6 orthogonal square central planes. Two angles are required to specify the relationship between two planes in 4-space. Pairs of planes within each 16-cell are 90° apart in one angle, and either 0° or 90° apart in the other angle. They are 90° apart in both angles if and only if they are completely orthogonal planes, 90° apart by isoclinic rotation, with no vertices in common and their corresponding vertices 180° apart. Otherwise they are 0° apart in one of the angles, 90° apart by simple rotation with their corresponding vertices 90° apart, and they intersect in one axis and lie in a common 3-dimensional hyperplane.{{Efn|A double rotation in which one of the two angles of rotation is 0°, so that one of the completely orthogonal invariant planes does not rotate, is called a simple rotation. Ordinary rotations observed in a 3-dimensional space are simple rotations.}}

A pair of square central planes from alternate 16-cells are 60° apart by isoclinic rotation, with their corresponding vertices 120° apart. The planes are not orthogonal or parallel, so they intersect in a line somewhere, but they have no vertices in common, they have no 3-dimensional hyperplane in common, and they cannot reach each other by simple rotation. Such pairs of objects are called [[W:Clifford parallel|Clifford parallel]] because all their corresponding pairs of vertices are the same distance apart, although they are not parallel in the usual sense, because they have a common center. Not only the alternate 16-cells' corresponding square central planes, but also the 16-cells themselves, are Clifford parallel objects.

We can rotate the tesseract isoclinically the way we rotated the 16-cell, by 90° in two completely orthogonal invariant square central planes, with the same effect on both alternate 16-cells. In the course of a 720° isoclinic rotation in invariant square central planes each vertex departs from all 8 vertex positions of its 16-cell just once and returns to its original position, but it does not visit the vertex positions of the other 16-cell. The skew octagon geodesic orbits of the 16 vertices are disjoint circular helixes, and those 16 circular helixes are Clifford parallel objects.

== The 24-cell ==
In 2-space we have the radially equilateral 6-point hexagon. In 3-space we have the radially equilateral 12-point cuboctahedron, with 4 hexagonal central planes. In 4-space we have the radially equilateral 24-point 24-cell, with 4 cuboctahedral central hyperplanes and 16 hexagonal central planes.

Great hexagons are a rounder choice than great squares for the invariant rotation planes in which to rotate a 4-polytope isoclinically. The complete hexagonal isoclinic revolution requires 720° like the complete square isoclinic revolution, but it is completed in 6 chordal steps of 120° each rather than 8 chordal steps of 180° each.

...

== The 600-cell ==

...

== Finally the 120-cell ==

...

== Conclusions ==

Fontaine and Hurley's discovery is more than a formula for the reciprocal of a regular ''n''-polygon diagonal. It also yields the discrete sequence of isocline chords of the distinct isoclinic rotation characteristic of a ''d''-dimensional regular polytope. The characteristic rotational chord sequence of the ''d''-polytope can be represented geometrically in two dimensions on a distinct star polygon, but it lies on a geodesic circle through ''d''-dimensional space. Fontaine and Hurley discovered the geodesic topology of polytopes generally. Their procedure will reveal the geodesics of arbitrary non-uniform polytopes, since it can be applied to a polytope of any dimensionality and irregularity, by first fitting the polytope to the smallest regular polygon whose chords include its chords.

Fontaine and Hurley's discovery of a chordal formula for isoclinic rotations closes the circuit on Kappraff and Adamson's discovery of a rotational connection between dynamical systems, Steinbach's golden fields, and Coxeter's Euclidean geometry of ''n'' dimensions. Application of the Fontaine and Hurley procedure in higher-dimensional spaces demonstrates why the connection exists: because polytope sequences generally, from Steinbach's golden polygon chord sequences, to chord sequences in isoclinic rotation helixes, to subsumption relations in the sequence of regular 4-polytopes, arise as expressions of the reflections and rotations of distinct Coxeter symmetry groups, when those various groups interact.

== Appendix: Sequence of regular 4-polytopes ==
{{Regular convex 4-polytopes|wiki=W:|columns=7}}

== Notes ==
{{Notelist}}

== Citations ==
{{Reflist}}

== References ==
{{Refbegin}}
* {{Cite journal | last=Steinbach | first=Peter | year=1997 | title=Golden fields: A case for the Heptagon | journal=Mathematics Magazine | volume=70 | issue=Feb 1997 | pages=22–31 | doi=10.1080/0025570X.1997.11996494 | jstor=2691048 | ref={{SfnRef|Steinbach|1997}} }}
* {{Cite journal | last=Steinbach | first=Peter | year=2000 | title=Sections Beyond Golden| journal=Bridges: Mathematical Connections in Art, Music and Science | issue=2000 | pages=35-44 | url=https://archive.bridgesmathart.org/2000/bridges2000-35.pdf | ref={{SfnRef|Steinbach|2000}}}}
* {{Cite journal | last1=Kappraff | first1=Jay | last2=Jablan | first2=Slavik | last3=Adamson | first3=Gary | last4=Sazdanovich | first4=Radmila | year=2004 | title=Golden Fields, Generalized Fibonacci Sequences, and Chaotic Matrices | journal=Forma | volume=19 | pages=367-387 | url=https://archive.bridgesmathart.org/2005/bridges2005-369.pdf | ref={{SfnRef|Kappraff, Jablan, Adamson &amp; Sazdanovich|2004}} }}
* {{Cite journal | last1=Kappraff | first1=Jay | last2=Adamson | first2=Gary | year=2004 | title=Polygons and Chaos | journal=Dynamical Systems and Geometric Theories | url=https://archive.bridgesmathart.org/2001/bridges2001-67.pdf | ref={{SfnRef|Kappraff &amp; Adamson|2004}} }}
* {{Cite journal | last1=Fontaine | first1=Anne | last2=Hurley | first2=Susan | year=2006 | title=Proof by Picture: Products and Reciprocals of Diagonal Length Ratios in the Regular Polygon | journal=Forum Geometricorum | volume=6 | pages=97-101 | url=https://scispace.com/pdf/proof-by-picture-products-and-reciprocals-of-diagonal-length-1aian8mgp9.pdf }}
{{Refend}}</text>
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    <revision>
      <id>2808073</id>
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      <contributor>
        <username>Dc.samizdat</username>
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      <text bytes="45716" sha1="jbcdgdmb6uz3aycyx6yneiou2s552hz" xml:space="preserve">{{align|center|David Brooks Christie}}
{{align|center|dc@samizdat.org}}
{{align|center|Draft in progress}}
{{align|center|January 2026 - April 2026}}

&lt;blockquote&gt;Steinbach discovered the formula for the ratios of diagonal to side in the regular polygons. Fontaine and Hurley extended this result, discovering a formula for the reciprocal of a regular polygon chord derived geometrically from the chord's star polygon. We observe that these findings in plane geometry apply more generally, to polytopes of any dimensionality. Fontaine and Hurley's geometric procedure for finding the reciprocals of the chords of a regular polygon from their star polygons also finds the rotational geodesics of any polytope of any dimensionality.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
== Introduction ==
Steinbach discovered the Diagonal Product Formula and the Golden Fields family of ratios of diagonal to side in the regular polygons. He showed how this family extends beyond the pentagon {5} with its well-known golden bisection proportional to 𝜙, finding that the heptagon {7} has an analogous trisection, the nonagon {9} has an analogous quadrasection, and the hendecagon {11} has an analogous pentasection, an extended family of golden proportions with quasiperiodic properties. 

Kappraff and Adamson extended these findings in plane geometry to a theory of Generalized Fibonacci Sequences, showing that the Golden Fields not only do not end with the hendecagon, they form an infinite number of periodic trajectories when operated on by the Mandelbrot operator. They found a relation between the edges of star polygons and dynamical systems in the state of chaos, revealing a connection between chaos theory, number, and rotations in Coxeter Euclidean geometry. 

Fontaine and Hurley examined Steinbach's finding that the length of each chord of a regular polygon is both the product of two chords and the sum of a set of smaller chords, so that in rotations to add is to multiply. They illustrated Steinbach's sets of additive chords lying parallel to each other in the plane (pointing in the same direction), and by applying Steinbach's formula more generally they found another summation relation of signed parallel chords (pointing in opposite directions) which relates each chord length to its reciprocal, and relates the summation to a distinct star polygon rotation. 

We examine these remarkable findings (which stem from study of the chords of humble regular polygons) in higher-dimensional spaces, specifically in the chords, polygons and rotations of the [[120-cell]], the largest four-dimensional regular convex polytope.

== Visualizing the 120-cell ==
{| class=&quot;wikitable floatright&quot; width=&quot;400&quot;
|style=&quot;vertical-align:top&quot;|[[File:120-cell.gif|200px]]&lt;br&gt;Orthographic projection of the 600-point 120-cell &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\{5,3,3\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; performing a [[W:SO(4)#Geometry of 4D rotations|simple rotation]].{{Sfn|Hise|2011|loc=File:120-cell.gif|ps=; &quot;Created by Jason Hise with Maya and Macromedia Fireworks. A 3D projection of a 120-cell performing a [[W:SO(4)#Geometry of 4D rotations|simple rotation]].&quot;}} In this simplified rendering only the 120-cell's own edges are shown; its 29 interior chords are not rendered. Therefore even though it is translucent, only its outer surface is visible. The complex interior parts of the 120-cell, all its inscribed 5-cells, 16-cells, 8-cells, 24-cells, 600-cells and its much larger inventory of polyhedra, are completely invisible in this view, as none of their edges are rendered at all.
|style=&quot;vertical-align:top&quot;|[[File:Ortho solid 016-uniform polychoron p33-t0.png|200px]]&lt;br&gt;Orthographic projection of the 600-point [[W:Great grand stellated 120-cell|great grand stellated 120-cell]] &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\{\tfrac{5}{2},3,3\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;.{{Sfn|Ruen: Great grand stellated 120-cell|2007}} The 120-cell is its convex hull. The projection to the left renders only the 120-cell's shortest chord, its 1200 edges. The projection above also renders only one of the 120-cell's 30 chords, the edges of its 120 inscribed regular 5-cells. The 120-cell itself (the convex hull) is invisible in this view, as its edges are not rendered.
|}

[[120-cell#Geometry|The 120-cell is the maximally complex regular 4-polytope]], containing inscribed instances of every regular 1-, 2-, 3-, and 4-polytope, except the regular polygons of more than {15} sides. 

The 120-cell is the convex hull of a regular [[120-cell#Relationships among interior polytopes|compound of each of the 6 regular convex 4-polytopes]]. They are the [[5-cell|5-point (5-cell) 4-simplex]], the [[16-cell|8-point (16-cell) 4-orthoplex]], the [[W:Tesseract|16-point (8-cell) tesseract]], the [[24-cell|24-point (24-cell)]], the [[600-cell|120-point (600-cell)]], and the [[120-cell|600-point (120-cell)]]. The 120-cell is the convex hull of a compound of 120 disjoint regular 5-cells, of 75 disjoint 16-cells, of 25 disjoint 24-cells, and of 5 disjoint 600-cells.

The 120-cell contains an even larger inventory of irregular polytopes, created by the intersection of multiple instances of these component regular 4-polytopes. Many are quite unexpected, because they do not occur as components of any regular polytope smaller than the 120-cell. As just one example among the [[120-cell#Concentric hulls|sections of the 120-cell]], there is an irregular 24-point polyhedron with 16 triangle faces and 4 nonagon {9} faces.{{Sfn|Moxness|}}

Most renderings of the 120-cell, like the rotating projection here, only illustrate its outer surface, which is a honeycomb of face-bonded dodecahedral cells. Only the objects in its 3-dimensional surface are rendered, namely the 120 dodecahedra, their pentagon faces, and their edges. Although the 120-cell has chords of 30 distinct lengths, in this kind of simplified rendering only the 120-cell's own edges (its shortest chord) are shown. Its 29 interior chords, the edges of objects in the interior of the 120-cell, are not rendered, so interior objects are not visible at all.

Visualizing the complete interior of the 600-vertex 120-cell in a single image is impractical because of its complexity. Only four 120-cell edges are incident at each vertex, but [[120-cell#Chords|600 chords (of all 30 lengths)]] are incident at ''each'' vertex.

== Compounds in the 120-cell ==
The 8-point (16-cell), not the 5-point (5-cell), is the smallest building block; it compounds to every larger regular 4-polytope. The 5-point (5-cell) does compound to the 600-point (120-cell), but it does not fit into any smaller regular 4-polytope. 

The 8-point (16-cell) compounds by 2 in the 16-point (8-cell), and by 3 in the 24-point (24-cell). The 16-point (8-cell) compounds in the 24-point (24-cell) by 3 non-disjoint instances of itself, with each of the 24 vertices shared by two 16-point (8-cells). The 24-point (24-cell) compounds by 5 disjoint instances of itself in the 120-point (600-cell), and the 120-point (600-cell) compounds by 5 disjoint instances of itself in the 600-point (120-cell).

The 24-point (24-cell) also compounds by &lt;math&gt;5^2&lt;/math&gt; non-disjoint instances of itself in the 120-point (600-cell); it compounds in 5 disjoint instances of itself, 10 (not 5) different ways. Whichever set of 5 disjoint 24-point (24-cells) are assembled, the resulting 120-point (600-cell) contains 25 distinct 24-point (24-cells), not just 5 (or 10). This implies that 15 disjoint 8-point (16-cells) will construct a 120-point (600-cell), which will contain 75 distinct 8-point (16-cells). 

The 600-point (120-cell) is 5 disjoint 120-point (600-cells), just 2 different ways (not 5 or 10 ways), so it is 10 distinct 120-point (600-cells). This implies that the 8-point (16-cell) compounds by 3 times &lt;math&gt;5^2&lt;/math&gt; (75) disjoint instances of itself in the 600-point (120-cell), which contains &lt;math&gt;3^2&lt;/math&gt; times  &lt;math&gt;5^2&lt;/math&gt; (225) distinct instances of the 24-point (24-cell), and  &lt;math&gt;3^3&lt;/math&gt; times &lt;math&gt;5^2&lt;/math&gt; (675) distinct instances of the 8-point (16-cell). 

These facts were discovered painstakingly by various researchers, and no one has found a general rule governing subsumption relations among regular polytopes. The reasons for some of their numeric incidence relations are far from obvious. [[W:Pieter Hendrik Schoute|Schoute]] was the first to see that the 120-point (600-cell) is a compound of 5 24-point (24-cells) ''10 different ways'', and after he saw it a hundred years lapsed until Denney, Hooker, Johnson, Robinson, Butler &amp; Claiborne proved his result, and showed why.{{Sfn|Denney, Hooker, Johnson, Robinson, Butler &amp; Claiborne|2020|loc=''The geometry of H4 polytopes''}}

So much for the compounds of 16-cells. The 120-cell is also the convex hull of the compound of 120 disjoint regular 5-cells. That stellated compound (without its convex hull of 120-cell edges) is the [[w:Great_grand_stellated_120-cell|great grand stellated 120-cell]] illustrated above, the final regular [[W:Stellation|stellation]] of the 120-cell, and the only [[W:Schläfli-Hess polychoron|regular star 4-polytope]] to have the 120-cell for its convex hull. The edges of the great grand stellated 120-cell are &lt;math&gt;\phi^6&lt;/math&gt; as long as those of its 120-cell [[W:List of polyhedral stellations#Stellation process|stellation core]] deep inside.

The compound of 120 disjoint 5-point (5-cells) can be seen to be equivalent to the compound of 5 disjoint 120-point (600-cells), as follows. Beginning with a single 120-point (600-cell), expand each vertex into a regular 5-cell, by adding 4 new equidistant vertices, such that the 5 vertices form a regular 5-cell inscribed in the 3-sphere. The 120 5-cells are disjoint, and the 600 vertices form 5 disjoint 120-point (600-cells): a 120-cell.

== Thirty distinguished distances ==
The 30 numbers listed in the table are all-important in Euclidean geometry. A case can be made on symmetry grounds that their squares are the 30 most important numbers between 0 and 4. The 30 rows of the table are the 30 distinct [[120-cell#Geodesic rectangles|chord lengths of the unit-radius 120-cell]], the largest regular convex 4-polytope. Since the 120-cell subsumes all smaller regular polytopes, its 30 chords are the complete chord set of all the regular polytopes that can be constructed in the first four dimensions of Euclidean space, except for regular polygons of more than 15 sides.

{| class=&quot;wikitable&quot; style=&quot;white-space:nowrap;text-align:center&quot;
!rowspan=2|&lt;math&gt;c_t&lt;/math&gt;
!rowspan=2|arc
!rowspan=2|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{n}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
!rowspan=2|&lt;math&gt;\left\{p\right\}&lt;/math&gt;
!rowspan=2|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;m\left\{\frac{k}{d}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
!rowspan=2|Steinbach roots
!colspan=7|Chord lengths of the unit 120-cell
|-
!colspan=5|unit-radius length &lt;math&gt;c_t&lt;/math&gt;
!colspan=2|unit-edge length &lt;math&gt;c_t/c_1&lt;/math&gt;&lt;br&gt;in 120-cell of radius &lt;math&gt;c_8=\sqrt{2}\phi^2&lt;/math&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{1,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;15.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{30\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{30\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{4,1}-c_{2,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{7-3 \sqrt{5}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.270091&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\sqrt{2} \phi ^2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2 \phi ^4}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.072949}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{2,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;25.2{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{2}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2 \left\{15\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \left(c_{18,1}-c_{4,1}\right)&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{3-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.437016&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\sqrt{2} \phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2 \phi ^2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.190983}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi &lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.61803&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{3,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;36{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{3}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{10\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;3 \left\{\frac{10}{3}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \left(\sqrt{5}-1\right) c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \left(\sqrt{5}-1\right)&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.618034&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{\phi ^2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.381966}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2} \phi &lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2.28825&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{4,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;41.4{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{60}{7}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{c_{8,1}}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.707107&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2.61803&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{5,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;44.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{4}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2 \left\{\frac{15}{2}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3} c_{2,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{9-3 \sqrt{5}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.756934&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}}}{\phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2 \phi ^2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.572949}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3} \phi &lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2.80252&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{6,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;49.1{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{120}{17}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{5-\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{5-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.831254&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\frac{1}{\phi }}}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{\sqrt{5}}{2 \phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.690983}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\phi ^3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;3.07768&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{7,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;56.0{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{20}{3}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}-\frac{1}{\phi }} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}-\frac{2}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.93913&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{\frac{\psi }{\phi }}}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{\psi }{2 \phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.881966}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\psi  \phi ^3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;3.47709&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;60{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{5}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{6\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{6\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;3.70246&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{9,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;66.1{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{40}{7}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}-\frac{1}{2 \phi }} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}-\frac{1}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.09132&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{\frac{\chi }{\phi }}}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{\chi }{2 \phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.19098}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\chi  \phi ^3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;4.04057&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{10,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;69.8{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{60}{11}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi  c_{4,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1+\sqrt{5}}{2 \sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.14412&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\phi }{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{\phi ^2}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.30902}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^3&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;4.23607&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{11,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;72{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{6}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{5\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{5\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\frac{1}{\phi }} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\frac{2}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.17557&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3-\phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3-\phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.38197}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2} \sqrt{3-\phi } \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;4.3525&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{12,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;75.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{24}{5}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.22474&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;4.53457&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{13,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;81.1{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{60}{13}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{9-\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{9-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.30038&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{9-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{4} \left(9-\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.69098}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2} \left(9-\sqrt{5}\right)} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;4.8146&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{14,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;84.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{40}{9}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\phi } c_{8,1}}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{1+\sqrt{5}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.345&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\phi }}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{\sqrt{5} \phi }{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.80902}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\phi ^5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;4.9798&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{15,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;90.0{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{7}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{4\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{4\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2 c_{4,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.41421&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2 \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;5.23607&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{16,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;95.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{120}{29}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{11-\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{11-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.4802&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{11-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{4} \left(11-\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.19098}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2} \left(11-\sqrt{5}\right)} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;5.48037&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{17,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;98.9{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{120}{31}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{7+\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{7+\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.51954&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{7+\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{4} \left(7+\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.30902}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\psi  \phi ^5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;5.62605&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{18,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;104.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{8}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{15}{4}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.58114&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{5} \sqrt{\phi ^4}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;5.8541&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{19,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;108.0{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{9}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{10}{3}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{3,1}+c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \left(1+\sqrt{5}\right)&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.61803&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi &lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1+\phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.61803}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2} \phi ^3&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;5.9907&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{20,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;110.2{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{120}{7}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{13-\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{13-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.64042&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{13-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{4} \left(13-\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.69098}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2 \sqrt{8-\phi ^2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.07359&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{21,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;113.9{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{60}{19}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}+\frac{1}{1+\sqrt{5}}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}+\frac{1}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.67601&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}+\frac{1}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}+\frac{1}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.80902}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2 \sqrt{8-\frac{\chi }{\phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.20537&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{22,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;120{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{10}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{3\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{3\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.73205&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{6} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.41285&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{23,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;124.0{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{120}{41}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{\phi }+\frac{5}{2}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}+\frac{2}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.7658&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{4-\frac{\psi }{2 \phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{4-\frac{\psi }{2 \phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.11803}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\chi  \phi ^5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.53779&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{24,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;130.9{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{20}{7}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{11+\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{11+\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.81907&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{11+\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{4} \left(11+\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.30902}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2 \sqrt{8-\frac{\sqrt{5}}{\phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.73503&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{25,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;135.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{11}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{11}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{7+3 \sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{7+3 \sqrt{5}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.85123&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\phi ^2}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{\phi ^4}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.42705}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^4&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.8541&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{26,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;138.6{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{12}{5}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{7}{2}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{7}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.87083&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{7}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{7}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{7} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.92667&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{27,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;144{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{12}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{5}{2}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2} \left(5+\sqrt{5}\right)} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2} \left(5+\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.90211&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\phi +2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2+\phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.61803}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2 \sqrt{2 \phi +4}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;7.0425&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{28,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;154.8{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{13}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{13}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{13+\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{13+\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.95167&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{13+\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{4} \left(13+\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.80902}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2 \sqrt{8-\frac{1}{\phi ^2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;7.22598&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{29,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;164.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{14}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{15}{7}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi  c_{12,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{\frac{3}{2}} \left(1+\sqrt{5}\right)&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.98168&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}} \phi &lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3 \phi ^2}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.92705}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3} \phi ^3&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;7.33708&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{30,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;180{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{15}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{2\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{2\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2 c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2.&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{4}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{4.}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2 \sqrt{2} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;7.40492&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|rowspan=4 colspan=6|
|rowspan=4 colspan=4|
&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; is the golden ratio:&lt;br&gt;
&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2-\phi -1=0&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;&lt;br&gt;
&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\phi }+1=\phi&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;, and: &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi+1=\phi^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;&lt;br&gt;
&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\phi }::1::\phi ::\phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;&lt;br&gt;
&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1/\phi&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; and &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; are the golden sections of &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;:&lt;br&gt;
&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi +\frac{1}{\phi }=\sqrt{5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|colspan=2|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi = (\sqrt{5} + 1)/2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.618034&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|colspan=2|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\chi = (3\sqrt{5} + 1)/2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;3.854102&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|colspan=2|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\psi = (3\sqrt{5} - 1)/2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2.854102&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|colspan=2|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\psi = 11/\chi = 22/(3\sqrt{5} + 1)&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2.854102&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|}

...

== The 8-point regular polytopes ==
In 2-space we have the regular 8-point octagon, in 3-space the regular 8-point cube, and in 4-space the regular 8-point [[W:16-cell|16-cell]].

A planar octagon with rigid edges of unit length has chords of length:

:&lt;math&gt;r_1=1,r_2=\sqrt{2+\sqrt{2}} \approx 1.84776,r_3=1+\sqrt{2} \approx 2.41421,r_4=\sqrt{4 + \sqrt{8}} \approx 2.61313&lt;/math&gt;

The chord ratio &lt;math&gt;r_3=1+\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt; is a geometrical proportion, the [[W:Silver ratio|silver ratio]]. Fontaine and Hurley's procedure for obtaining the reciprocal of a chord tells us that:

:&lt;math&gt;r_3-r_1-r_1=1/r_3 \approx 0.41421&lt;/math&gt;

Notice that &lt;math&gt;1/r_3=\sqrt{2}-1=r_3-2&lt;/math&gt;.

If we embed this planar octagon in 3-space, we can make it skew, repositioning its vertices so that each is one unit-edge length distant from three others instead of two others, so we obtain a unit-edge cube with chords of length:

:&lt;math&gt;r_1=1, r_2=\sqrt{2}, r_3=\sqrt{3}, r_4=\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;

If we embed this cube in 4-space, we can skew it some more, repositioning its vertices so that each is one unit-edge length distant from six others instead of three others, so we obtain a unit-edge 4-polytope with chords of length:

:&lt;math&gt;r_1=1,r_2=1,r_3=1,r_4=\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;

All of its chords except its long diameters are the same unit length as its edge. In fact they are its 24 edges, and it is a 16-cell of radius &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1/\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;.

[[File:octagon16cell.png|thumb|A cell-first orthogonal projection of a regular 16-cell. Only its edges are shown; its long diameter chords are not drawn. All of the 24 edges are the same length and none lie in the view plane.]]

The [[16-cell]] is the [[W:Regular convex 4-polytope|regular convex 4-polytope]] with [[W:Schläfli symbol|Schläfli symbol]] {3,3,4}. It has 8 vertices, 24 edges, 32 equilateral triangle faces, and 16 regular tetrahedron cells. It is the [[16-cell#Octahedral dipyramid|four-dimensional analogue of the octahedron]], and each of its four orthogonal central hyperplanes is an octahedron.

The only planar regular polygons found in the 16-cell are face triangles and central plane squares, but the 16-cell also contains a regular skew octagon, its [[W:Petrie polygon|Petrie polygon]]. The chords of this regular octagon, which lies skew in 4-space, are those given above for the 16-cell, as opposed to those for the cube or the regular octagon in the plane. The 16-cell has 3 such Petrie octagons, which share the same 8 vertices but have disjoint sets of 8 edges each.

The regular octad has higher symmetry in 4-space than it does in 2-space. The 16-cell is the 4-orthoplex, the simplest regular 4-polytope after the [[5-cell|4-simplex]]. All the larger regular 4-polytopes, including the 120-cell, are compounds of the 16-cell. The regular octagon exhibits this high symmetry only when embedded in 4-space at the vertices of the 16-cell.

The 16-cell constitutes an [[W:Orthonormal basis|orthonormal basis]] for the choice of a 4-dimensional Cartesian reference frame, because its vertices define four orthogonal axes. The eight vertices of a unit-radius 16-cell are (±1, 0, 0, 0), (0, ±1, 0, 0), (0, 0, ±1, 0), (0, 0, 0, ±1). All vertices are connected by &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; edges except opposite pairs. In this convenient unit-radius 4-coordinate system, the original planar octagon we started with had chords of length:

:&lt;math&gt;r_1=\sqrt{2},r_2=\sqrt{2(2+\sqrt{2})} \approx 2.61313,r_3=2+\sqrt{2} \approx 3.41421,r_4=2 \sqrt{2+\sqrt{2}} \approx 3.69552&lt;/math&gt;

none of which chords occur in a 16-cell or 120-cell except &lt;math&gt;r_1=\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;. 

In the unit-radius 120-cell, the great square edge chord &lt;math&gt;c_{15} = \sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt; occurs in 675 distinct (75 disjoint) 16-cells. The vertex coordinates of each 16-cell form 6 central squares lying in 6 pairwise [[W:Orthogonal|orthogonal]] coordinate planes. Great squares in ''opposite'' planes that do not share an axis (e.g. in the ''xy'' and ''wz'' planes) are completely disjoint (they do not intersect at any vertices). These planes are [[W:Completely orthogonal|completely orthogonal]].{{Efn|name=Six orthogonal planes of the Cartesian basis}}

[[W:Rotations in 4-dimensional Euclidean space|Rotations in 4-dimensional Euclidean space]] can be seen as the composition of two 2-dimensional rotations in completely orthogonal planes. The general rotation in 4-space is a double rotation in pairs of completely orthogonal planes. Two completely orthogonal planes are called invariant planes of the rotation when all points in the plane rotate on circles that remain in the plane, even as the whole plane tilts sideways (like a coin flipping) into another plane. The two completely orthogonal rotations of each plane (like a wheel, and like a coin flipping) are simultaneous but independent, in that they are not geometrically constrained to turn at the same rate. However, the most circular kind of rotation (as opposed to an elliptical double rotation of a rigid spherical object) occurs when the invariant planes do rotate through the same angle in the same time interval. Such equi-angled double rotations are called [[w:SO(4)#Isoclinic_rotations|isoclinic]], also [[w:William_Kingdon_Clifford|Clifford]] displacements.

The 16-cell is the simplest possible frame in which to [[16-cell#Rotations|observe 4-dimensional rotations]] because its characteristic isoclinic rotations feature a single pair of invariant rotation planes. In the 16-cell an isoclinic rotation by 90° in any pair of invariant completely orthogonal square central planes takes every square central plane to its completely orthogonal square central plane, and takes every vertex to its antipodal vertex 180° degrees away. All the vertices move at once, displaced 180° in 8 orthogonal directions, and the rigid 16-cell assumes a new orientation in 4-space. The trajectory of each vertex is a one-eighth segment of its [[W:Geodesic|geodesic]] orbit. Its entire orbit traces a circular helix in 4-space, and also traces a great circle in one of the two completely orthogonal invariant rotation planes, as they tilt sideways into each other's plane. When the isoclinic rotation is continued in the same rotational direction through an additional 90°, each vertex is again displaced 180° to its antipodal position, but from the new orientation where the vertex is on the opposite side of the 16-cell departing in the opposite direction. In the course of a 720° isoclinic rotation each vertex departs from all 8 vertex positions just once, and returns to its original position.

== Hypercubes ==
The long diameter of the unit-edge [[W:Hypercube|hypercube]] of dimension &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;n&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; is &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{n}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;, so the unit-edge [[w:Tesseract|4-hypercube, the 16-point (8-cell) tesseract,]] has chords:
:&lt;math&gt;r_1=\sqrt{1},r_2=\sqrt{2},r_3=\sqrt{3},r_4=\sqrt{4}&lt;/math&gt;
Uniquely in its 4-dimensional case, the hypercube's edge length equals its radius, like the hexagon. We call such polytopes ''radially equilateral'', because they can be constructed from equilateral triangles which meet at their center, each contributing two radii and an edge. The cuboctahedron and the 24-cell are also radially equilateral.

The [[W:Tesseract|tesseract]] is the [[W:Regular convex 4-polytope|regular convex 4-polytope]] with [[W:Schläfli symbol|Schläfli symbol]] {4,3,3}. It has 16 vertices, 32 edges, 24 square faces, and 8 cube cells. It is the four-dimensional analogue of the cube.

The tesseract is the [[W:Dual polytope|dual polytope]] of the 16-cell. They have the same Petrie polygon, the regular octagon, but the tesseract contains 2 disjoint instances and 4 distinct instances of the skew octagon. We can construct the tesseract the way we constructed the 16-cell, by skewing a planar octagon's edges so they become edges of the 4-polytope. Because the tesseract has 16 vertices we will need two planar octagons, and to start we must embedded them in 4-space as completely orthogonal planes that intersect at only one point, their common center. Because the tesseract is radially equilateral (unlike the 16-cell), to build a unit-radius tesseract we start with our original octagon of unit-edge length, rather than the octagon of edge length &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; that we needed to build the unit-radius 16-cell.

For our tesseract construction we skew each planar octagon into a cube, so we have a compound of two completely orthogonal cubes. Provided the planes were completely orthogonal in 4-space and we skewed them both the same way, the 16 vertices will be the vertices of a tesseract with half of its 32 edges missing.

The 16-point tesseract is the convex hull of a compound of two 8-point 16-cells, in exact dimensional analogy to the way the 8-point cube is the convex hull of a [[W:Stellated octahedron|compound of two regular 4-point tetrahedra]]. The [[W:Demihypercube|demihypercubes]] occupy alternate vertices of the hypercubes. The diagonals of the square faces of the unit-radius tesseract are the &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; edges of two unit-radius 16-cells, which are also the edges of the square central planes.

Because the tesseract contains two 16-cells in alternate positions it has two sets of 6 orthogonal square central planes. Two angles are required to specify the relationship between two planes in 4-space. Pairs of planes within each 16-cell are 90° apart in one angle, and either 0° or 90° apart in the other angle. They are 90° apart in both angles if and only if they are completely orthogonal planes, 90° apart by isoclinic rotation, with no vertices in common and their corresponding vertices 180° apart. Otherwise they are 0° apart in one of the angles, 90° apart by simple rotation with their corresponding vertices 90° apart, and they intersect in one axis and lie in a common 3-dimensional hyperplane.{{Efn|A double rotation in which one of the two angles of rotation is 0°, so that one of the completely orthogonal invariant planes does not rotate, is called a simple rotation. Ordinary rotations observed in a 3-dimensional space are simple rotations.}}

A pair of square central planes from alternate 16-cells are 60° apart by isoclinic rotation, with their corresponding vertices 120° apart. The planes are not orthogonal or parallel, so they intersect in a line somewhere, but they have no vertices in common, they have no 3-dimensional hyperplane in common, and they cannot reach each other by simple rotation. Such pairs of objects are called [[W:Clifford parallel|Clifford parallel]] because all their corresponding pairs of vertices are the same distance apart, although they are not parallel in the usual sense, because they have a common center. Not only the alternate 16-cells' corresponding square central planes, but also the 16-cells themselves, are Clifford parallel objects.

We can rotate the tesseract isoclinically the way we rotated the 16-cell, by 90° in two completely orthogonal invariant square central planes, with the same effect on both alternate 16-cells. In the course of a 720° isoclinic rotation in invariant square central planes each vertex departs from all 8 vertex positions of its 16-cell just once and returns to its original position, but it does not visit the vertex positions of the other 16-cell. The skew octagon geodesic orbits of the 16 vertices are disjoint circular helixes, and those 16 circular helixes are Clifford parallel objects.

== The 24-cell ==
In 2-space we have the radially equilateral 6-point hexagon. In 3-space we have the radially equilateral 12-point cuboctahedron, with 4 hexagonal central planes. In 4-space we have the radially equilateral 24-point 24-cell, with 4 cuboctahedral central hyperplanes and 16 hexagonal central planes.

Great hexagons are a rounder choice than great squares for the invariant rotation planes in which to rotate a 4-polytope isoclinically. The complete hexagonal isoclinic revolution requires 720° like the complete square isoclinic revolution, but it is completed in 6 chordal steps of 120° each rather than 8 chordal steps of 180° each.

...

== The 600-cell ==

...

== Finally the 120-cell ==

...

== Conclusions ==

Fontaine and Hurley's discovery is more than a formula for the reciprocal of a regular ''n''-polygon diagonal. It also yields the discrete sequence of isocline chords of the distinct isoclinic rotation characteristic of a ''d''-dimensional regular polytope. The characteristic rotational chord sequence of the ''d''-polytope can be represented geometrically in two dimensions on a distinct star polygon, but it lies on a geodesic circle through ''d''-dimensional space. Fontaine and Hurley discovered the geodesic topology of polytopes generally. Their procedure will reveal the geodesics of arbitrary non-uniform polytopes, since it can be applied to a polytope of any dimensionality and irregularity, by first fitting the polytope to the smallest regular polygon whose chords include its chords.

Fontaine and Hurley's discovery of a chordal formula for isoclinic rotations closes the circuit on Kappraff and Adamson's discovery of a rotational connection between dynamical systems, Steinbach's golden fields, and Coxeter's Euclidean geometry of ''n'' dimensions. Application of the Fontaine and Hurley procedure in higher-dimensional spaces demonstrates why the connection exists: because polytope sequences generally, from Steinbach's golden polygon chord sequences, to chord sequences in isoclinic rotation helixes, to subsumption relations in the sequence of regular 4-polytopes, arise as expressions of the reflections and rotations of distinct Coxeter symmetry groups, when those various groups interact.

== Appendix: Sequence of regular 4-polytopes ==
{{Regular convex 4-polytopes|wiki=W:|columns=7}}

== Notes ==
{{Notelist}}

== Citations ==
{{Reflist}}

== References ==
{{Refbegin}}
* {{Cite journal | last=Steinbach | first=Peter | year=1997 | title=Golden fields: A case for the Heptagon | journal=Mathematics Magazine | volume=70 | issue=Feb 1997 | pages=22–31 | doi=10.1080/0025570X.1997.11996494 | jstor=2691048 | ref={{SfnRef|Steinbach|1997}} }}
* {{Cite journal | last=Steinbach | first=Peter | year=2000 | title=Sections Beyond Golden| journal=Bridges: Mathematical Connections in Art, Music and Science | issue=2000 | pages=35-44 | url=https://archive.bridgesmathart.org/2000/bridges2000-35.pdf | ref={{SfnRef|Steinbach|2000}}}}
* {{Cite journal | last1=Kappraff | first1=Jay | last2=Jablan | first2=Slavik | last3=Adamson | first3=Gary | last4=Sazdanovich | first4=Radmila | year=2004 | title=Golden Fields, Generalized Fibonacci Sequences, and Chaotic Matrices | journal=Forma | volume=19 | pages=367-387 | url=https://archive.bridgesmathart.org/2005/bridges2005-369.pdf | ref={{SfnRef|Kappraff, Jablan, Adamson &amp; Sazdanovich|2004}} }}
* {{Cite journal | last1=Kappraff | first1=Jay | last2=Adamson | first2=Gary | year=2004 | title=Polygons and Chaos | journal=Dynamical Systems and Geometric Theories | url=https://archive.bridgesmathart.org/2001/bridges2001-67.pdf | ref={{SfnRef|Kappraff &amp; Adamson|2004}} }}
* {{Cite journal | last1=Fontaine | first1=Anne | last2=Hurley | first2=Susan | year=2006 | title=Proof by Picture: Products and Reciprocals of Diagonal Length Ratios in the Regular Polygon | journal=Forum Geometricorum | volume=6 | pages=97-101 | url=https://scispace.com/pdf/proof-by-picture-products-and-reciprocals-of-diagonal-length-1aian8mgp9.pdf }}
{{Refend}}</text>
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      <text bytes="45760" sha1="562cvn7wdp4b022q8c88r0af951uw0a" xml:space="preserve">{{align|center|David Brooks Christie}}
{{align|center|dc@samizdat.org}}
{{align|center|Draft in progress}}
{{align|center|January 2026 - April 2026}}

&lt;blockquote&gt;Steinbach discovered the formula for the ratios of diagonal to side in the regular polygons. Fontaine and Hurley extended this result, discovering a formula for the reciprocal of a regular polygon chord derived geometrically from the chord's star polygon. We observe that these findings in plane geometry apply more generally, to polytopes of any dimensionality. Fontaine and Hurley's geometric procedure for finding the reciprocals of the chords of a regular polygon from their star polygons also finds the rotational geodesics of any polytope of any dimensionality.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
== Introduction ==
Steinbach discovered the Diagonal Product Formula and the Golden Fields family of ratios of diagonal to side in the regular polygons. He showed how this family extends beyond the pentagon {5} with its well-known golden bisection proportional to 𝜙, finding that the heptagon {7} has an analogous trisection, the nonagon {9} has an analogous quadrasection, and the hendecagon {11} has an analogous pentasection, an extended family of golden proportions with quasiperiodic properties. 

Kappraff and Adamson extended these findings in plane geometry to a theory of Generalized Fibonacci Sequences, showing that the Golden Fields not only do not end with the hendecagon, they form an infinite number of periodic trajectories when operated on by the Mandelbrot operator. They found a relation between the edges of star polygons and dynamical systems in the state of chaos, revealing a connection between chaos theory, number, and rotations in Coxeter Euclidean geometry. 

Fontaine and Hurley examined Steinbach's finding that the length of each chord of a regular polygon is both the product of two chords and the sum of a set of smaller chords, so that in rotations to add is to multiply. They illustrated Steinbach's sets of additive chords lying parallel to each other in the plane (pointing in the same direction), and by applying Steinbach's formula more generally they found another summation relation of signed parallel chords (pointing in opposite directions) which relates each chord length to its reciprocal, and relates the summation to a distinct star polygon rotation. 

We examine these remarkable findings (which stem from study of the chords of humble regular polygons) in higher-dimensional spaces, specifically in the chords, polygons and rotations of the [[120-cell]], the largest four-dimensional regular convex polytope.

== Visualizing the 120-cell ==
{| class=&quot;wikitable floatright&quot; width=&quot;400&quot;
|style=&quot;vertical-align:top&quot;|[[File:120-cell.gif|200px]]&lt;br&gt;Orthographic projection of the 600-point 120-cell &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\{5,3,3\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; performing a [[W:SO(4)#Geometry of 4D rotations|simple rotation]].{{Sfn|Hise|2011|loc=File:120-cell.gif|ps=; &quot;Created by Jason Hise with Maya and Macromedia Fireworks. A 3D projection of a 120-cell performing a [[W:SO(4)#Geometry of 4D rotations|simple rotation]].&quot;}} In this simplified rendering only the 120-cell's own edges are shown; its 29 interior chords are not rendered. Therefore even though it is translucent, only its outer surface is visible. The complex interior parts of the 120-cell, all its inscribed 5-cells, 16-cells, 8-cells, 24-cells, 600-cells and its much larger inventory of polyhedra, are completely invisible in this view, as none of their edges are rendered at all.
|style=&quot;vertical-align:top&quot;|[[File:Ortho solid 016-uniform polychoron p33-t0.png|200px]]&lt;br&gt;Orthographic projection of the 600-point [[W:Great grand stellated 120-cell|great grand stellated 120-cell]] &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\{\tfrac{5}{2},3,3\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;.{{Sfn|Ruen: Great grand stellated 120-cell|2007}} The 120-cell is its convex hull. The projection to the left renders only the 120-cell's shortest chord, its 1200 edges. The projection above also renders only one of the 120-cell's 30 chords, the edges of its 120 inscribed regular 5-cells. The 120-cell itself (the convex hull) is invisible in this view, as its edges are not rendered.
|}

[[120-cell#Geometry|The 120-cell is the maximally complex regular 4-polytope]], containing inscribed instances of every regular 1-, 2-, 3-, and 4-polytope, except the regular polygons of more than {15} sides. 

The 120-cell is the convex hull of a regular [[120-cell#Relationships among interior polytopes|compound of each of the 6 regular convex 4-polytopes]]. They are the [[5-cell|5-point (5-cell) 4-simplex]], the [[16-cell|8-point (16-cell) 4-orthoplex]], the [[W:Tesseract|16-point (8-cell) tesseract]], the [[24-cell|24-point (24-cell)]], the [[600-cell|120-point (600-cell)]], and the [[120-cell|600-point (120-cell)]]. The 120-cell is the convex hull of a compound of 120 disjoint regular 5-cells, of 75 disjoint 16-cells, of 25 disjoint 24-cells, and of 5 disjoint 600-cells.

The 120-cell contains an even larger inventory of irregular polytopes, created by the intersection of multiple instances of these component regular 4-polytopes. Many are quite unexpected, because they do not occur as components of any regular polytope smaller than the 120-cell. As just one example among the [[120-cell#Concentric hulls|sections of the 120-cell]], there is an irregular 24-point polyhedron with 16 triangle faces and 4 nonagon {9} faces.{{Sfn|Moxness|}}

Most renderings of the 120-cell, like the rotating projection here, only illustrate its outer surface, which is a honeycomb of face-bonded dodecahedral cells. Only the objects in its 3-dimensional surface are rendered, namely the 120 dodecahedra, their pentagon faces, and their edges. Although the 120-cell has chords of 30 distinct lengths, in this kind of simplified rendering only the 120-cell's own edges (its shortest chord) are shown. Its 29 interior chords, the edges of objects in the interior of the 120-cell, are not rendered, so interior objects are not visible at all.

Visualizing the complete interior of the 600-vertex 120-cell in a single image is impractical because of its complexity. Only four 120-cell edges are incident at each vertex, but [[120-cell#Chords|600 chords (of all 30 lengths)]] are incident at ''each'' vertex.

== Compounds in the 120-cell ==
The 8-point (16-cell), not the 5-point (5-cell), is the smallest building block; it compounds to every larger regular 4-polytope. The 5-point (5-cell) does compound to the 600-point (120-cell), but it does not fit into any smaller regular 4-polytope. 

The 8-point (16-cell) compounds by 2 in the 16-point (8-cell), and by 3 in the 24-point (24-cell). The 16-point (8-cell) compounds in the 24-point (24-cell) by 3 non-disjoint instances of itself, with each of the 24 vertices shared by two 16-point (8-cells). The 24-point (24-cell) compounds by 5 disjoint instances of itself in the 120-point (600-cell), and the 120-point (600-cell) compounds by 5 disjoint instances of itself in the 600-point (120-cell).

The 24-point (24-cell) also compounds by &lt;math&gt;5^2&lt;/math&gt; non-disjoint instances of itself in the 120-point (600-cell); it compounds in 5 disjoint instances of itself, 10 (not 5) different ways. Whichever set of 5 disjoint 24-point (24-cells) are assembled, the resulting 120-point (600-cell) contains 25 distinct 24-point (24-cells), not just 5 (or 10). This implies that 15 disjoint 8-point (16-cells) will construct a 120-point (600-cell), which will contain 75 distinct 8-point (16-cells). 

The 600-point (120-cell) is 5 disjoint 120-point (600-cells), just 2 different ways (not 5 or 10 ways), so it is 10 distinct 120-point (600-cells). This implies that the 8-point (16-cell) compounds by 3 times &lt;math&gt;5^2&lt;/math&gt; (75) disjoint instances of itself in the 600-point (120-cell), which contains &lt;math&gt;3^2&lt;/math&gt; times  &lt;math&gt;5^2&lt;/math&gt; (225) distinct instances of the 24-point (24-cell), and  &lt;math&gt;3^3&lt;/math&gt; times &lt;math&gt;5^2&lt;/math&gt; (675) distinct instances of the 8-point (16-cell). 

These facts were discovered painstakingly by various researchers, and no one has found a general rule governing subsumption relations among regular polytopes. The reasons for some of their numeric incidence relations are far from obvious. [[W:Pieter Hendrik Schoute|Schoute]] was the first to see that the 120-point (600-cell) is a compound of 5 24-point (24-cells) ''10 different ways'', and after he saw it a hundred years lapsed until Denney, Hooker, Johnson, Robinson, Butler &amp; Claiborne proved his result, and showed why.{{Sfn|Denney, Hooker, Johnson, Robinson, Butler &amp; Claiborne|2020|loc=''The geometry of H4 polytopes''}}

So much for the compounds of 16-cells. The 120-cell is also the convex hull of the compound of 120 disjoint regular 5-cells. That stellated compound (without its convex hull of 120-cell edges) is the [[w:Great_grand_stellated_120-cell|great grand stellated 120-cell]] illustrated above, the final regular [[W:Stellation|stellation]] of the 120-cell, and the only [[W:Schläfli-Hess polychoron|regular star 4-polytope]] to have the 120-cell for its convex hull. The edges of the great grand stellated 120-cell are &lt;math&gt;\phi^6&lt;/math&gt; as long as those of its 120-cell [[W:List of polyhedral stellations#Stellation process|stellation core]] deep inside.

The compound of 120 disjoint 5-point (5-cells) can be seen to be equivalent to the compound of 5 disjoint 120-point (600-cells), as follows. Beginning with a single 120-point (600-cell), expand each vertex into a regular 5-cell, by adding 4 new equidistant vertices, such that the 5 vertices form a regular 5-cell inscribed in the 3-sphere. The 120 5-cells are disjoint, and the 600 vertices form 5 disjoint 120-point (600-cells): a 120-cell.

== Thirty distinguished distances ==
The 30 numbers listed in the table are all-important in Euclidean geometry. A case can be made on symmetry grounds that their squares are the 30 most important numbers between 0 and 4. The 30 rows of the table are the 30 distinct [[120-cell#Geodesic rectangles|chord lengths of the unit-radius 120-cell]], the largest regular convex 4-polytope. Since the 120-cell subsumes all smaller regular polytopes, its 30 chords are the complete chord set of all the regular polytopes that can be constructed in the first four dimensions of Euclidean space, except for regular polygons of more than 15 sides.

{| class=&quot;wikitable&quot; style=&quot;white-space:nowrap;text-align:center&quot;
!rowspan=2|&lt;math&gt;c_t&lt;/math&gt;
!rowspan=2|arc
!rowspan=2|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{n}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
!rowspan=2|&lt;math&gt;\left\{p\right\}&lt;/math&gt;
!rowspan=2|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;m\left\{\frac{k}{d}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
!rowspan=2|Steinbach roots
!colspan=7|Chord lengths of the unit 120-cell
|-
!colspan=5|unit-radius length &lt;math&gt;c_t&lt;/math&gt;
!colspan=2|unit-edge length &lt;math&gt;c_t/c_1&lt;/math&gt;&lt;br&gt;in 120-cell of radius &lt;math&gt;c_8=\sqrt{2}\phi^2&lt;/math&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{1,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;15.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{30\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{30\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{4,1}-c_{2,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{7-3 \sqrt{5}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.270091&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\sqrt{2} \phi ^2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2 \phi ^4}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.072949}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{2,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;25.2{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{2}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2 \left\{15\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \left(c_{18,1}-c_{4,1}\right)&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{3-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.437016&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\sqrt{2} \phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2 \phi ^2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.190983}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi &lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.61803&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{3,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;36{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{3}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{10\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;3 \left\{\frac{10}{3}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \left(\sqrt{5}-1\right) c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \left(\sqrt{5}-1\right)&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.618034&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{\phi ^2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.381966}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2} \phi &lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2.28825&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{4,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;41.4{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{60}{7}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{c_{8,1}}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.707107&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2.61803&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{5,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;44.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{4}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2 \left\{\frac{15}{2}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3} c_{2,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{9-3 \sqrt{5}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.756934&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}}}{\phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2 \phi ^2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.572949}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3} \phi &lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2.80252&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{6,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;49.1{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{120}{17}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{5-\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{5-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.831254&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\frac{1}{\phi }}}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{\sqrt{5}}{2 \phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.690983}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\phi ^3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;3.07768&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{7,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;56.0{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{20}{3}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}-\frac{1}{\phi }} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}-\frac{2}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.93913&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{\frac{\psi }{\phi }}}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{\psi }{2 \phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.881966}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\psi  \phi ^3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;3.47709&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;60{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{5}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{6\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{6\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;3.70246&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{9,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;66.1{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{40}{7}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}-\frac{1}{2 \phi }} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}-\frac{1}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.09132&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{\frac{\chi }{\phi }}}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{\chi }{2 \phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.19098}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\chi  \phi ^3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;4.04057&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{10,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;69.8{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{60}{11}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi  c_{4,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1+\sqrt{5}}{2 \sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.14412&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\phi }{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{\phi ^2}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.30902}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^3&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;4.23607&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{11,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;72{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{6}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{5\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{5\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\frac{1}{\phi }} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\frac{2}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.17557&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3-\phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3-\phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.38197}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2} \sqrt{3-\phi } \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;4.3525&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{12,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;75.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{24}{5}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.22474&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;4.53457&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{13,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;81.1{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{60}{13}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{9-\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{9-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.30038&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{9-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{4} \left(9-\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.69098}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2} \left(9-\sqrt{5}\right)} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;4.8146&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{14,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;84.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{40}{9}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\phi } c_{8,1}}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{1+\sqrt{5}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.345&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\phi }}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{\sqrt{5} \phi }{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.80902}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\phi ^5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;4.9798&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{15,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;90.0{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{7}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{4\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{4\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2 c_{4,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.41421&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2 \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;5.23607&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{16,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;95.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{120}{29}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{11-\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{11-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.4802&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{11-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{4} \left(11-\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.19098}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2} \left(11-\sqrt{5}\right)} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;5.48037&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{17,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;98.9{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{120}{31}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{7+\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{7+\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.51954&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{7+\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{4} \left(7+\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.30902}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\psi  \phi ^5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;5.62605&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{18,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;104.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{8}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{15}{4}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.58114&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{5} \sqrt{\phi ^4}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;5.8541&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{19,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;108.0{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{9}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{10}{3}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{3,1}+c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \left(1+\sqrt{5}\right)&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.61803&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi &lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1+\phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.61803}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2} \phi ^3&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;5.9907&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{20,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;110.2{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{120}{7}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{13-\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{13-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.64042&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{13-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{4} \left(13-\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.69098}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2 \sqrt{8-\phi ^2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.07359&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{21,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;113.9{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{60}{19}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}+\frac{1}{1+\sqrt{5}}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}+\frac{1}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.67601&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}+\frac{1}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}+\frac{1}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.80902}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2 \sqrt{8-\frac{\chi }{\phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.20537&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{22,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;120{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{10}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{3\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{3\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.73205&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{6} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.41285&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{23,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;124.0{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{120}{41}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{\phi }+\frac{5}{2}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}+\frac{2}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.7658&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{4-\frac{\psi }{2 \phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{4-\frac{\psi }{2 \phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.11803}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\chi  \phi ^5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.53779&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{24,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;130.9{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{20}{7}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{11+\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{11+\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.81907&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{11+\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{4} \left(11+\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.30902}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2 \sqrt{8-\frac{\sqrt{5}}{\phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.73503&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{25,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;135.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{11}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{11}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{7+3 \sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{7+3 \sqrt{5}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.85123&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\phi ^2}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{\phi ^4}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.42705}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^4&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.8541&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{26,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;138.6{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{12}{5}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{7}{2}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{7}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.87083&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{7}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{7}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{7} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.92667&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{27,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;144{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{12}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{5}{2}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2} \left(5+\sqrt{5}\right)} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2} \left(5+\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.90211&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\phi +2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2+\phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.61803}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2 \sqrt{2 \phi +4}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;7.0425&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{28,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;154.8{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{13}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{13}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{13+\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{13+\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.95167&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{13+\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{4} \left(13+\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.80902}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2 \sqrt{8-\frac{1}{\phi ^2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;7.22598&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{29,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;164.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{14}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{15}{7}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi  c_{12,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{\frac{3}{2}} \left(1+\sqrt{5}\right)&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.98168&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}} \phi &lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3 \phi ^2}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.92705}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3} \phi ^3&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;7.33708&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{30,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;180{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{15}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{2\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{2\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2 c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2.&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{4}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{4.}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2 \sqrt{2} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;7.40492&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|rowspan=4 colspan=6|
|rowspan=4 colspan=4|
&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; is the golden ratio:&lt;br&gt;
&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2-\phi -1=0&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;&lt;br&gt;
&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\phi }+1=\phi&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;, and: &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi+1=\phi^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;&lt;br&gt;
&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\phi }::1::\phi ::\phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;&lt;br&gt;
&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1/\phi&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; and &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; are the golden sections of &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;:&lt;br&gt;
&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi +\frac{1}{\phi }=\sqrt{5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|colspan=2|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi = (\sqrt{5} + 1)/2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.618034&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|colspan=2|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\chi = (3\sqrt{5} + 1)/2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;3.854102&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|colspan=2|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\psi = (3\sqrt{5} - 1)/2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2.854102&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|colspan=2|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\psi = 11/\chi = 22/(3\sqrt{5} + 1)&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2.854102&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|}

...

== The 8-point regular polytopes ==
In 2-space we have the regular 8-point octagon, in 3-space the regular 8-point cube, and in 4-space the regular 8-point [[W:16-cell|16-cell]].

A planar octagon with rigid edges of unit length has chords of length:

:&lt;math&gt;r_1=1,r_2=\sqrt{2+\sqrt{2}} \approx 1.84776,r_3=1+\sqrt{2} \approx 2.41421,r_4=\sqrt{4 + \sqrt{8}} \approx 2.61313&lt;/math&gt;

The chord ratio &lt;math&gt;r_3=1+\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt; is a geometrical proportion, the [[W:Silver ratio|silver ratio]]. Fontaine and Hurley's procedure for obtaining the reciprocal of a chord tells us that:

:&lt;math&gt;r_3-r_1-r_1=1/r_3 \approx 0.41421&lt;/math&gt;

Notice that &lt;math&gt;1/r_3=\sqrt{2}-1=r_3-2&lt;/math&gt;.

If we embed this planar octagon in 3-space, we can make it skew, repositioning its vertices so that each is one unit-edge length distant from three others instead of two others, so we obtain a unit-edge cube with chords of length:

:&lt;math&gt;r_1=1, r_2=\sqrt{2}, r_3=\sqrt{3}, r_4=\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;

If we embed this cube in 4-space, we can skew it some more, repositioning its vertices so that each is one unit-edge length distant from six others instead of three others, so we obtain a unit-edge 4-polytope with chords of length:

:&lt;math&gt;r_1=1,r_2=1,r_3=1,r_4=\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;

All of its chords except its long diameters are the same unit length as its edge. In fact they are its 24 edges, and it is a 16-cell of radius &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1/\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;.

[[File:octagon16cell.png|thumb|A cell-first orthogonal projection of a regular 16-cell. Only its edges are shown; its long diameter chords are not drawn. All of the 24 edges are the same length. Only the edges of two completely orthogonal squares lie in the view plane.]]

The [[16-cell]] is the [[W:Regular convex 4-polytope|regular convex 4-polytope]] with [[W:Schläfli symbol|Schläfli symbol]] {3,3,4}. It has 8 vertices, 24 edges, 32 equilateral triangle faces, and 16 regular tetrahedron cells. It is the [[16-cell#Octahedral dipyramid|four-dimensional analogue of the octahedron]], and each of its four orthogonal central hyperplanes is an octahedron.

The only planar regular polygons found in the 16-cell are face triangles and central plane squares, but the 16-cell also contains a regular skew octagon, its [[W:Petrie polygon|Petrie polygon]]. The chords of this regular octagon, which lies skew in 4-space, are those given above for the 16-cell, as opposed to those for the cube or the regular octagon in the plane. The 16-cell has 3 such Petrie octagons, which share the same 8 vertices but have disjoint sets of 8 edges each.

The regular octad has higher symmetry in 4-space than it does in 2-space. The 16-cell is the 4-orthoplex, the simplest regular 4-polytope after the [[5-cell|4-simplex]]. All the larger regular 4-polytopes, including the 120-cell, are compounds of the 16-cell. The regular octagon exhibits this high symmetry only when embedded in 4-space at the vertices of the 16-cell.

The 16-cell constitutes an [[W:Orthonormal basis|orthonormal basis]] for the choice of a 4-dimensional Cartesian reference frame, because its vertices define four orthogonal axes. The eight vertices of a unit-radius 16-cell are (±1, 0, 0, 0), (0, ±1, 0, 0), (0, 0, ±1, 0), (0, 0, 0, ±1). All vertices are connected by &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; edges except opposite pairs. In this convenient unit-radius 4-coordinate system, the original planar octagon we started with had chords of length:

:&lt;math&gt;r_1=\sqrt{2},r_2=\sqrt{2(2+\sqrt{2})} \approx 2.61313,r_3=2+\sqrt{2} \approx 3.41421,r_4=2 \sqrt{2+\sqrt{2}} \approx 3.69552&lt;/math&gt;

none of which chords occur in a 16-cell or 120-cell except &lt;math&gt;r_1=\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;. 

In the unit-radius 120-cell, the great square edge chord &lt;math&gt;c_{15} = \sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt; occurs in 675 distinct (75 disjoint) 16-cells. The vertex coordinates of each 16-cell form 6 central squares lying in 6 pairwise [[W:Orthogonal|orthogonal]] coordinate planes. Great squares in ''opposite'' planes that do not share an axis (e.g. in the ''xy'' and ''wz'' planes) are completely disjoint (they do not intersect at any vertices). These planes are [[W:Completely orthogonal|completely orthogonal]].{{Efn|name=Six orthogonal planes of the Cartesian basis}}

[[W:Rotations in 4-dimensional Euclidean space|Rotations in 4-dimensional Euclidean space]] can be seen as the composition of two 2-dimensional rotations in completely orthogonal planes. The general rotation in 4-space is a double rotation in pairs of completely orthogonal planes. Two completely orthogonal planes are called invariant planes of the rotation when all points in the plane rotate on circles that remain in the plane, even as the whole plane tilts sideways (like a coin flipping) into another plane. The two completely orthogonal rotations of each plane (like a wheel, and like a coin flipping) are simultaneous but independent, in that they are not geometrically constrained to turn at the same rate. However, the most circular kind of rotation (as opposed to an elliptical double rotation of a rigid spherical object) occurs when the invariant planes do rotate through the same angle in the same time interval. Such equi-angled double rotations are called [[w:SO(4)#Isoclinic_rotations|isoclinic]], also [[w:William_Kingdon_Clifford|Clifford]] displacements.

The 16-cell is the simplest possible frame in which to [[16-cell#Rotations|observe 4-dimensional rotations]] because its characteristic isoclinic rotations feature a single pair of invariant rotation planes. In the 16-cell an isoclinic rotation by 90° in any pair of invariant completely orthogonal square central planes takes every square central plane to its completely orthogonal square central plane, and takes every vertex to its antipodal vertex 180° degrees away. All the vertices move at once, displaced 180° in 8 orthogonal directions, and the rigid 16-cell assumes a new orientation in 4-space. The trajectory of each vertex is a one-eighth segment of its [[W:Geodesic|geodesic]] orbit. Its entire orbit traces a circular helix in 4-space, and also traces a great circle in one of the two completely orthogonal invariant rotation planes, as they tilt sideways into each other's plane. When the isoclinic rotation is continued in the same rotational direction through an additional 90°, each vertex is again displaced 180° to its antipodal position, but from the new orientation where the vertex is on the opposite side of the 16-cell departing in the opposite direction. In the course of a 720° isoclinic rotation each vertex departs from all 8 vertex positions just once, and returns to its original position.

== Hypercubes ==
The long diameter of the unit-edge [[W:Hypercube|hypercube]] of dimension &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;n&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; is &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{n}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;, so the unit-edge [[w:Tesseract|4-hypercube, the 16-point (8-cell) tesseract,]] has chords:
:&lt;math&gt;r_1=\sqrt{1},r_2=\sqrt{2},r_3=\sqrt{3},r_4=\sqrt{4}&lt;/math&gt;
Uniquely in its 4-dimensional case, the hypercube's edge length equals its radius, like the hexagon. We call such polytopes ''radially equilateral'', because they can be constructed from equilateral triangles which meet at their center, each contributing two radii and an edge. The cuboctahedron and the 24-cell are also radially equilateral.

The [[W:Tesseract|tesseract]] is the [[W:Regular convex 4-polytope|regular convex 4-polytope]] with [[W:Schläfli symbol|Schläfli symbol]] {4,3,3}. It has 16 vertices, 32 edges, 24 square faces, and 8 cube cells. It is the four-dimensional analogue of the cube.

The tesseract is the [[W:Dual polytope|dual polytope]] of the 16-cell. They have the same Petrie polygon, the regular octagon, but the tesseract contains 2 disjoint instances and 4 distinct instances of the skew octagon. We can construct the tesseract the way we constructed the 16-cell, by skewing a planar octagon's edges so they become edges of the 4-polytope. Because the tesseract has 16 vertices we will need two planar octagons, and to start we must embedded them in 4-space as completely orthogonal planes that intersect at only one point, their common center. Because the tesseract is radially equilateral (unlike the 16-cell), to build a unit-radius tesseract we start with our original octagon of unit-edge length, rather than the octagon of edge length &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; that we needed to build the unit-radius 16-cell.

For our tesseract construction we skew each planar octagon into a cube, so we have a compound of two completely orthogonal cubes. Provided the planes were completely orthogonal in 4-space and we skewed them both the same way, the 16 vertices will be the vertices of a tesseract with half of its 32 edges missing.

The 16-point tesseract is the convex hull of a compound of two 8-point 16-cells, in exact dimensional analogy to the way the 8-point cube is the convex hull of a [[W:Stellated octahedron|compound of two regular 4-point tetrahedra]]. The [[W:Demihypercube|demihypercubes]] occupy alternate vertices of the hypercubes. The diagonals of the square faces of the unit-radius tesseract are the &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; edges of two unit-radius 16-cells, which are also the edges of the square central planes.

Because the tesseract contains two 16-cells in alternate positions it has two sets of 6 orthogonal square central planes. Two angles are required to specify the relationship between two planes in 4-space. Pairs of planes within each 16-cell are 90° apart in one angle, and either 0° or 90° apart in the other angle. They are 90° apart in both angles if and only if they are completely orthogonal planes, 90° apart by isoclinic rotation, with no vertices in common and their corresponding vertices 180° apart. Otherwise they are 0° apart in one of the angles, 90° apart by simple rotation with their corresponding vertices 90° apart, and they intersect in one axis and lie in a common 3-dimensional hyperplane.{{Efn|A double rotation in which one of the two angles of rotation is 0°, so that one of the completely orthogonal invariant planes does not rotate, is called a simple rotation. Ordinary rotations observed in a 3-dimensional space are simple rotations.}}

A pair of square central planes from alternate 16-cells are 60° apart by isoclinic rotation, with their corresponding vertices 120° apart. The planes are not orthogonal or parallel, so they intersect in a line somewhere, but they have no vertices in common, they have no 3-dimensional hyperplane in common, and they cannot reach each other by simple rotation. Such pairs of objects are called [[W:Clifford parallel|Clifford parallel]] because all their corresponding pairs of vertices are the same distance apart, although they are not parallel in the usual sense, because they have a common center. Not only the alternate 16-cells' corresponding square central planes, but also the 16-cells themselves, are Clifford parallel objects.

We can rotate the tesseract isoclinically the way we rotated the 16-cell, by 90° in two completely orthogonal invariant square central planes, with the same effect on both alternate 16-cells. In the course of a 720° isoclinic rotation in invariant square central planes each vertex departs from all 8 vertex positions of its 16-cell just once and returns to its original position, but it does not visit the vertex positions of the other 16-cell. The skew octagon geodesic orbits of the 16 vertices are disjoint circular helixes, and those 16 circular helixes are Clifford parallel objects.

== The 24-cell ==
In 2-space we have the radially equilateral 6-point hexagon. In 3-space we have the radially equilateral 12-point cuboctahedron, with 4 hexagonal central planes. In 4-space we have the radially equilateral 24-point 24-cell, with 4 cuboctahedral central hyperplanes and 16 hexagonal central planes.

Great hexagons are a rounder choice than great squares for the invariant rotation planes in which to rotate a 4-polytope isoclinically. The complete hexagonal isoclinic revolution requires 720° like the complete square isoclinic revolution, but it is completed in 6 chordal steps of 120° each rather than 8 chordal steps of 180° each.

...

== The 600-cell ==

...

== Finally the 120-cell ==

...

== Conclusions ==

Fontaine and Hurley's discovery is more than a formula for the reciprocal of a regular ''n''-polygon diagonal. It also yields the discrete sequence of isocline chords of the distinct isoclinic rotation characteristic of a ''d''-dimensional regular polytope. The characteristic rotational chord sequence of the ''d''-polytope can be represented geometrically in two dimensions on a distinct star polygon, but it lies on a geodesic circle through ''d''-dimensional space. Fontaine and Hurley discovered the geodesic topology of polytopes generally. Their procedure will reveal the geodesics of arbitrary non-uniform polytopes, since it can be applied to a polytope of any dimensionality and irregularity, by first fitting the polytope to the smallest regular polygon whose chords include its chords.

Fontaine and Hurley's discovery of a chordal formula for isoclinic rotations closes the circuit on Kappraff and Adamson's discovery of a rotational connection between dynamical systems, Steinbach's golden fields, and Coxeter's Euclidean geometry of ''n'' dimensions. Application of the Fontaine and Hurley procedure in higher-dimensional spaces demonstrates why the connection exists: because polytope sequences generally, from Steinbach's golden polygon chord sequences, to chord sequences in isoclinic rotation helixes, to subsumption relations in the sequence of regular 4-polytopes, arise as expressions of the reflections and rotations of distinct Coxeter symmetry groups, when those various groups interact.

== Appendix: Sequence of regular 4-polytopes ==
{{Regular convex 4-polytopes|wiki=W:|columns=7}}

== Notes ==
{{Notelist}}

== Citations ==
{{Reflist}}

== References ==
{{Refbegin}}
* {{Cite journal | last=Steinbach | first=Peter | year=1997 | title=Golden fields: A case for the Heptagon | journal=Mathematics Magazine | volume=70 | issue=Feb 1997 | pages=22–31 | doi=10.1080/0025570X.1997.11996494 | jstor=2691048 | ref={{SfnRef|Steinbach|1997}} }}
* {{Cite journal | last=Steinbach | first=Peter | year=2000 | title=Sections Beyond Golden| journal=Bridges: Mathematical Connections in Art, Music and Science | issue=2000 | pages=35-44 | url=https://archive.bridgesmathart.org/2000/bridges2000-35.pdf | ref={{SfnRef|Steinbach|2000}}}}
* {{Cite journal | last1=Kappraff | first1=Jay | last2=Jablan | first2=Slavik | last3=Adamson | first3=Gary | last4=Sazdanovich | first4=Radmila | year=2004 | title=Golden Fields, Generalized Fibonacci Sequences, and Chaotic Matrices | journal=Forma | volume=19 | pages=367-387 | url=https://archive.bridgesmathart.org/2005/bridges2005-369.pdf | ref={{SfnRef|Kappraff, Jablan, Adamson &amp; Sazdanovich|2004}} }}
* {{Cite journal | last1=Kappraff | first1=Jay | last2=Adamson | first2=Gary | year=2004 | title=Polygons and Chaos | journal=Dynamical Systems and Geometric Theories | url=https://archive.bridgesmathart.org/2001/bridges2001-67.pdf | ref={{SfnRef|Kappraff &amp; Adamson|2004}} }}
* {{Cite journal | last1=Fontaine | first1=Anne | last2=Hurley | first2=Susan | year=2006 | title=Proof by Picture: Products and Reciprocals of Diagonal Length Ratios in the Regular Polygon | journal=Forum Geometricorum | volume=6 | pages=97-101 | url=https://scispace.com/pdf/proof-by-picture-products-and-reciprocals-of-diagonal-length-1aian8mgp9.pdf }}
{{Refend}}</text>
      <sha1>562cvn7wdp4b022q8c88r0af951uw0a</sha1>
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    <revision>
      <id>2808075</id>
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      <contributor>
        <username>Dc.samizdat</username>
        <id>2856930</id>
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      <text bytes="45769" sha1="fthag4wdmoqm1agu1cevy66dzppq8zr" xml:space="preserve">{{align|center|David Brooks Christie}}
{{align|center|dc@samizdat.org}}
{{align|center|Draft in progress}}
{{align|center|January 2026 - April 2026}}

&lt;blockquote&gt;Steinbach discovered the formula for the ratios of diagonal to side in the regular polygons. Fontaine and Hurley extended this result, discovering a formula for the reciprocal of a regular polygon chord derived geometrically from the chord's star polygon. We observe that these findings in plane geometry apply more generally, to polytopes of any dimensionality. Fontaine and Hurley's geometric procedure for finding the reciprocals of the chords of a regular polygon from their star polygons also finds the rotational geodesics of any polytope of any dimensionality.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
== Introduction ==
Steinbach discovered the Diagonal Product Formula and the Golden Fields family of ratios of diagonal to side in the regular polygons. He showed how this family extends beyond the pentagon {5} with its well-known golden bisection proportional to 𝜙, finding that the heptagon {7} has an analogous trisection, the nonagon {9} has an analogous quadrasection, and the hendecagon {11} has an analogous pentasection, an extended family of golden proportions with quasiperiodic properties. 

Kappraff and Adamson extended these findings in plane geometry to a theory of Generalized Fibonacci Sequences, showing that the Golden Fields not only do not end with the hendecagon, they form an infinite number of periodic trajectories when operated on by the Mandelbrot operator. They found a relation between the edges of star polygons and dynamical systems in the state of chaos, revealing a connection between chaos theory, number, and rotations in Coxeter Euclidean geometry. 

Fontaine and Hurley examined Steinbach's finding that the length of each chord of a regular polygon is both the product of two chords and the sum of a set of smaller chords, so that in rotations to add is to multiply. They illustrated Steinbach's sets of additive chords lying parallel to each other in the plane (pointing in the same direction), and by applying Steinbach's formula more generally they found another summation relation of signed parallel chords (pointing in opposite directions) which relates each chord length to its reciprocal, and relates the summation to a distinct star polygon rotation. 

We examine these remarkable findings (which stem from study of the chords of humble regular polygons) in higher-dimensional spaces, specifically in the chords, polygons and rotations of the [[120-cell]], the largest four-dimensional regular convex polytope.

== Visualizing the 120-cell ==
{| class=&quot;wikitable floatright&quot; width=&quot;400&quot;
|style=&quot;vertical-align:top&quot;|[[File:120-cell.gif|200px]]&lt;br&gt;Orthographic projection of the 600-point 120-cell &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\{5,3,3\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; performing a [[W:SO(4)#Geometry of 4D rotations|simple rotation]].{{Sfn|Hise|2011|loc=File:120-cell.gif|ps=; &quot;Created by Jason Hise with Maya and Macromedia Fireworks. A 3D projection of a 120-cell performing a [[W:SO(4)#Geometry of 4D rotations|simple rotation]].&quot;}} In this simplified rendering only the 120-cell's own edges are shown; its 29 interior chords are not rendered. Therefore even though it is translucent, only its outer surface is visible. The complex interior parts of the 120-cell, all its inscribed 5-cells, 16-cells, 8-cells, 24-cells, 600-cells and its much larger inventory of polyhedra, are completely invisible in this view, as none of their edges are rendered at all.
|style=&quot;vertical-align:top&quot;|[[File:Ortho solid 016-uniform polychoron p33-t0.png|200px]]&lt;br&gt;Orthographic projection of the 600-point [[W:Great grand stellated 120-cell|great grand stellated 120-cell]] &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\{\tfrac{5}{2},3,3\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;.{{Sfn|Ruen: Great grand stellated 120-cell|2007}} The 120-cell is its convex hull. The projection to the left renders only the 120-cell's shortest chord, its 1200 edges. The projection above also renders only one of the 120-cell's 30 chords, the edges of its 120 inscribed regular 5-cells. The 120-cell itself (the convex hull) is invisible in this view, as its edges are not rendered.
|}

[[120-cell#Geometry|The 120-cell is the maximally complex regular 4-polytope]], containing inscribed instances of every regular 1-, 2-, 3-, and 4-polytope, except the regular polygons of more than {15} sides. 

The 120-cell is the convex hull of a regular [[120-cell#Relationships among interior polytopes|compound of each of the 6 regular convex 4-polytopes]]. They are the [[5-cell|5-point (5-cell) 4-simplex]], the [[16-cell|8-point (16-cell) 4-orthoplex]], the [[W:Tesseract|16-point (8-cell) tesseract]], the [[24-cell|24-point (24-cell)]], the [[600-cell|120-point (600-cell)]], and the [[120-cell|600-point (120-cell)]]. The 120-cell is the convex hull of a compound of 120 disjoint regular 5-cells, of 75 disjoint 16-cells, of 25 disjoint 24-cells, and of 5 disjoint 600-cells.

The 120-cell contains an even larger inventory of irregular polytopes, created by the intersection of multiple instances of these component regular 4-polytopes. Many are quite unexpected, because they do not occur as components of any regular polytope smaller than the 120-cell. As just one example among the [[120-cell#Concentric hulls|sections of the 120-cell]], there is an irregular 24-point polyhedron with 16 triangle faces and 4 nonagon {9} faces.{{Sfn|Moxness|}}

Most renderings of the 120-cell, like the rotating projection here, only illustrate its outer surface, which is a honeycomb of face-bonded dodecahedral cells. Only the objects in its 3-dimensional surface are rendered, namely the 120 dodecahedra, their pentagon faces, and their edges. Although the 120-cell has chords of 30 distinct lengths, in this kind of simplified rendering only the 120-cell's own edges (its shortest chord) are shown. Its 29 interior chords, the edges of objects in the interior of the 120-cell, are not rendered, so interior objects are not visible at all.

Visualizing the complete interior of the 600-vertex 120-cell in a single image is impractical because of its complexity. Only four 120-cell edges are incident at each vertex, but [[120-cell#Chords|600 chords (of all 30 lengths)]] are incident at ''each'' vertex.

== Compounds in the 120-cell ==
The 8-point (16-cell), not the 5-point (5-cell), is the smallest building block; it compounds to every larger regular 4-polytope. The 5-point (5-cell) does compound to the 600-point (120-cell), but it does not fit into any smaller regular 4-polytope. 

The 8-point (16-cell) compounds by 2 in the 16-point (8-cell), and by 3 in the 24-point (24-cell). The 16-point (8-cell) compounds in the 24-point (24-cell) by 3 non-disjoint instances of itself, with each of the 24 vertices shared by two 16-point (8-cells). The 24-point (24-cell) compounds by 5 disjoint instances of itself in the 120-point (600-cell), and the 120-point (600-cell) compounds by 5 disjoint instances of itself in the 600-point (120-cell).

The 24-point (24-cell) also compounds by &lt;math&gt;5^2&lt;/math&gt; non-disjoint instances of itself in the 120-point (600-cell); it compounds in 5 disjoint instances of itself, 10 (not 5) different ways. Whichever set of 5 disjoint 24-point (24-cells) are assembled, the resulting 120-point (600-cell) contains 25 distinct 24-point (24-cells), not just 5 (or 10). This implies that 15 disjoint 8-point (16-cells) will construct a 120-point (600-cell), which will contain 75 distinct 8-point (16-cells). 

The 600-point (120-cell) is 5 disjoint 120-point (600-cells), just 2 different ways (not 5 or 10 ways), so it is 10 distinct 120-point (600-cells). This implies that the 8-point (16-cell) compounds by 3 times &lt;math&gt;5^2&lt;/math&gt; (75) disjoint instances of itself in the 600-point (120-cell), which contains &lt;math&gt;3^2&lt;/math&gt; times  &lt;math&gt;5^2&lt;/math&gt; (225) distinct instances of the 24-point (24-cell), and  &lt;math&gt;3^3&lt;/math&gt; times &lt;math&gt;5^2&lt;/math&gt; (675) distinct instances of the 8-point (16-cell). 

These facts were discovered painstakingly by various researchers, and no one has found a general rule governing subsumption relations among regular polytopes. The reasons for some of their numeric incidence relations are far from obvious. [[W:Pieter Hendrik Schoute|Schoute]] was the first to see that the 120-point (600-cell) is a compound of 5 24-point (24-cells) ''10 different ways'', and after he saw it a hundred years lapsed until Denney, Hooker, Johnson, Robinson, Butler &amp; Claiborne proved his result, and showed why.{{Sfn|Denney, Hooker, Johnson, Robinson, Butler &amp; Claiborne|2020|loc=''The geometry of H4 polytopes''}}

So much for the compounds of 16-cells. The 120-cell is also the convex hull of the compound of 120 disjoint regular 5-cells. That stellated compound (without its convex hull of 120-cell edges) is the [[w:Great_grand_stellated_120-cell|great grand stellated 120-cell]] illustrated above, the final regular [[W:Stellation|stellation]] of the 120-cell, and the only [[W:Schläfli-Hess polychoron|regular star 4-polytope]] to have the 120-cell for its convex hull. The edges of the great grand stellated 120-cell are &lt;math&gt;\phi^6&lt;/math&gt; as long as those of its 120-cell [[W:List of polyhedral stellations#Stellation process|stellation core]] deep inside.

The compound of 120 disjoint 5-point (5-cells) can be seen to be equivalent to the compound of 5 disjoint 120-point (600-cells), as follows. Beginning with a single 120-point (600-cell), expand each vertex into a regular 5-cell, by adding 4 new equidistant vertices, such that the 5 vertices form a regular 5-cell inscribed in the 3-sphere. The 120 5-cells are disjoint, and the 600 vertices form 5 disjoint 120-point (600-cells): a 120-cell.

== Thirty distinguished distances ==
The 30 numbers listed in the table are all-important in Euclidean geometry. A case can be made on symmetry grounds that their squares are the 30 most important numbers between 0 and 4. The 30 rows of the table are the 30 distinct [[120-cell#Geodesic rectangles|chord lengths of the unit-radius 120-cell]], the largest regular convex 4-polytope. Since the 120-cell subsumes all smaller regular polytopes, its 30 chords are the complete chord set of all the regular polytopes that can be constructed in the first four dimensions of Euclidean space, except for regular polygons of more than 15 sides.

{| class=&quot;wikitable&quot; style=&quot;white-space:nowrap;text-align:center&quot;
!rowspan=2|&lt;math&gt;c_t&lt;/math&gt;
!rowspan=2|arc
!rowspan=2|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{n}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
!rowspan=2|&lt;math&gt;\left\{p\right\}&lt;/math&gt;
!rowspan=2|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;m\left\{\frac{k}{d}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
!rowspan=2|Steinbach roots
!colspan=7|Chord lengths of the unit 120-cell
|-
!colspan=5|unit-radius length &lt;math&gt;c_t&lt;/math&gt;
!colspan=2|unit-edge length &lt;math&gt;c_t/c_1&lt;/math&gt;&lt;br&gt;in 120-cell of radius &lt;math&gt;c_8=\sqrt{2}\phi^2&lt;/math&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{1,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;15.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{30\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{30\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{4,1}-c_{2,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{7-3 \sqrt{5}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.270091&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\sqrt{2} \phi ^2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2 \phi ^4}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.072949}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{2,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;25.2{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{2}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2 \left\{15\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \left(c_{18,1}-c_{4,1}\right)&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{3-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.437016&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\sqrt{2} \phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2 \phi ^2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.190983}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi &lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.61803&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{3,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;36{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{3}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{10\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;3 \left\{\frac{10}{3}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \left(\sqrt{5}-1\right) c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \left(\sqrt{5}-1\right)&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.618034&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{\phi ^2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.381966}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2} \phi &lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2.28825&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{4,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;41.4{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{60}{7}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{c_{8,1}}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.707107&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2.61803&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{5,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;44.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{4}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2 \left\{\frac{15}{2}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3} c_{2,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{9-3 \sqrt{5}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.756934&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}}}{\phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2 \phi ^2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.572949}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3} \phi &lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2.80252&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{6,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;49.1{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{120}{17}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{5-\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{5-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.831254&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\frac{1}{\phi }}}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{\sqrt{5}}{2 \phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.690983}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\phi ^3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;3.07768&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{7,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;56.0{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{20}{3}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}-\frac{1}{\phi }} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}-\frac{2}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.93913&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{\frac{\psi }{\phi }}}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{\psi }{2 \phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.881966}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\psi  \phi ^3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;3.47709&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;60{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{5}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{6\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{6\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;3.70246&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{9,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;66.1{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{40}{7}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}-\frac{1}{2 \phi }} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}-\frac{1}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.09132&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{\frac{\chi }{\phi }}}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{\chi }{2 \phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.19098}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\chi  \phi ^3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;4.04057&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{10,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;69.8{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{60}{11}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi  c_{4,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1+\sqrt{5}}{2 \sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.14412&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\phi }{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{\phi ^2}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.30902}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^3&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;4.23607&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{11,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;72{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{6}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{5\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{5\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\frac{1}{\phi }} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\frac{2}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.17557&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3-\phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3-\phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.38197}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2} \sqrt{3-\phi } \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;4.3525&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{12,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;75.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{24}{5}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.22474&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;4.53457&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{13,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;81.1{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{60}{13}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{9-\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{9-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.30038&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{9-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{4} \left(9-\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.69098}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2} \left(9-\sqrt{5}\right)} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;4.8146&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{14,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;84.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{40}{9}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\phi } c_{8,1}}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{1+\sqrt{5}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.345&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\phi }}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{\sqrt{5} \phi }{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.80902}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\phi ^5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;4.9798&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{15,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;90.0{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{7}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{4\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{4\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2 c_{4,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.41421&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2 \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;5.23607&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{16,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;95.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{120}{29}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{11-\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{11-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.4802&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{11-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{4} \left(11-\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.19098}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2} \left(11-\sqrt{5}\right)} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;5.48037&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{17,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;98.9{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{120}{31}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{7+\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{7+\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.51954&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{7+\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{4} \left(7+\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.30902}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\psi  \phi ^5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;5.62605&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{18,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;104.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{8}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{15}{4}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.58114&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{5} \sqrt{\phi ^4}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;5.8541&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{19,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;108.0{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{9}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{10}{3}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{3,1}+c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \left(1+\sqrt{5}\right)&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.61803&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi &lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1+\phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.61803}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2} \phi ^3&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;5.9907&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{20,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;110.2{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{120}{7}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{13-\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{13-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.64042&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{13-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{4} \left(13-\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.69098}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2 \sqrt{8-\phi ^2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.07359&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{21,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;113.9{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{60}{19}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}+\frac{1}{1+\sqrt{5}}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}+\frac{1}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.67601&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}+\frac{1}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}+\frac{1}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.80902}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2 \sqrt{8-\frac{\chi }{\phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.20537&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{22,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;120{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{10}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{3\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{3\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.73205&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{6} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.41285&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{23,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;124.0{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{120}{41}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{\phi }+\frac{5}{2}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}+\frac{2}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.7658&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{4-\frac{\psi }{2 \phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{4-\frac{\psi }{2 \phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.11803}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\chi  \phi ^5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.53779&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{24,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;130.9{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{20}{7}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{11+\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{11+\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.81907&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{11+\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{4} \left(11+\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.30902}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2 \sqrt{8-\frac{\sqrt{5}}{\phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.73503&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{25,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;135.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{11}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{11}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{7+3 \sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{7+3 \sqrt{5}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.85123&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\phi ^2}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{\phi ^4}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.42705}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^4&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.8541&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{26,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;138.6{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{12}{5}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{7}{2}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{7}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.87083&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{7}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{7}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{7} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.92667&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{27,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;144{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{12}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{5}{2}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2} \left(5+\sqrt{5}\right)} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2} \left(5+\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.90211&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\phi +2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2+\phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.61803}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2 \sqrt{2 \phi +4}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;7.0425&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{28,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;154.8{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{13}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{13}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{13+\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{13+\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.95167&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{13+\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{4} \left(13+\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.80902}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2 \sqrt{8-\frac{1}{\phi ^2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;7.22598&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{29,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;164.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{14}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{15}{7}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi  c_{12,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{\frac{3}{2}} \left(1+\sqrt{5}\right)&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.98168&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}} \phi &lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3 \phi ^2}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.92705}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3} \phi ^3&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;7.33708&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{30,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;180{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{15}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{2\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{2\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2 c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2.&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{4}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{4.}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2 \sqrt{2} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;7.40492&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|rowspan=4 colspan=6|
|rowspan=4 colspan=4|
&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; is the golden ratio:&lt;br&gt;
&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2-\phi -1=0&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;&lt;br&gt;
&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\phi }+1=\phi&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;, and: &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi+1=\phi^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;&lt;br&gt;
&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\phi }::1::\phi ::\phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;&lt;br&gt;
&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1/\phi&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; and &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; are the golden sections of &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;:&lt;br&gt;
&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi +\frac{1}{\phi }=\sqrt{5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|colspan=2|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi = (\sqrt{5} + 1)/2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.618034&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|colspan=2|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\chi = (3\sqrt{5} + 1)/2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;3.854102&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|colspan=2|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\psi = (3\sqrt{5} - 1)/2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2.854102&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|colspan=2|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\psi = 11/\chi = 22/(3\sqrt{5} + 1)&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2.854102&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|}

...

== The 8-point regular polytopes ==
In 2-space we have the regular 8-point octagon, in 3-space the regular 8-point cube, and in 4-space the regular 8-point [[W:16-cell|16-cell]].

A planar octagon with rigid edges of unit length has chords of length:

:&lt;math&gt;r_1=1,r_2=\sqrt{2+\sqrt{2}} \approx 1.84776,r_3=1+\sqrt{2} \approx 2.41421,r_4=\sqrt{4 + \sqrt{8}} \approx 2.61313&lt;/math&gt;

The chord ratio &lt;math&gt;r_3=1+\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt; is a geometrical proportion, the [[W:Silver ratio|silver ratio]]. Fontaine and Hurley's procedure for obtaining the reciprocal of a chord tells us that:

:&lt;math&gt;r_3-r_1-r_1=1/r_3 \approx 0.41421&lt;/math&gt;

Notice that &lt;math&gt;1/r_3=\sqrt{2}-1=r_3-2&lt;/math&gt;.

If we embed this planar octagon in 3-space, we can make it skew, repositioning its vertices so that each is one unit-edge length distant from three others instead of two others, so we obtain a unit-edge cube with chords of length:

:&lt;math&gt;r_1=1, r_2=\sqrt{2}, r_3=\sqrt{3}, r_4=\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;

If we embed this cube in 4-space, we can skew it some more, repositioning its vertices so that each is one unit-edge length distant from six others instead of three others, so we obtain a unit-edge 4-polytope with chords of length:

:&lt;math&gt;r_1=1,r_2=1,r_3=1,r_4=\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;

All of its chords except its long diameters are the same unit length as its edge. In fact they are its 24 edges, and it is a 16-cell of radius &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1/\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;.

[[File:octagon16cell.png|thumb|A cell-first orthogonal projection of a regular 16-cell. Only its edges are shown; its long diameter chords are not drawn. All of the 24 edges are the same length. Only the edges of two completely orthogonal squares lie parallel to the view plane.]]

The [[16-cell]] is the [[W:Regular convex 4-polytope|regular convex 4-polytope]] with [[W:Schläfli symbol|Schläfli symbol]] {3,3,4}. It has 8 vertices, 24 edges, 32 equilateral triangle faces, and 16 regular tetrahedron cells. It is the [[16-cell#Octahedral dipyramid|four-dimensional analogue of the octahedron]], and each of its four orthogonal central hyperplanes is an octahedron.

The only planar regular polygons found in the 16-cell are face triangles and central plane squares, but the 16-cell also contains a regular skew octagon, its [[W:Petrie polygon|Petrie polygon]]. The chords of this regular octagon, which lies skew in 4-space, are those given above for the 16-cell, as opposed to those for the cube or the regular octagon in the plane. The 16-cell has 3 such Petrie octagons, which share the same 8 vertices but have disjoint sets of 8 edges each.

The regular octad has higher symmetry in 4-space than it does in 2-space. The 16-cell is the 4-orthoplex, the simplest regular 4-polytope after the [[5-cell|4-simplex]]. All the larger regular 4-polytopes, including the 120-cell, are compounds of the 16-cell. The regular octagon exhibits this high symmetry only when embedded in 4-space at the vertices of the 16-cell.

The 16-cell constitutes an [[W:Orthonormal basis|orthonormal basis]] for the choice of a 4-dimensional Cartesian reference frame, because its vertices define four orthogonal axes. The eight vertices of a unit-radius 16-cell are (±1, 0, 0, 0), (0, ±1, 0, 0), (0, 0, ±1, 0), (0, 0, 0, ±1). All vertices are connected by &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; edges except opposite pairs. In this convenient unit-radius 4-coordinate system, the original planar octagon we started with had chords of length:

:&lt;math&gt;r_1=\sqrt{2},r_2=\sqrt{2(2+\sqrt{2})} \approx 2.61313,r_3=2+\sqrt{2} \approx 3.41421,r_4=2 \sqrt{2+\sqrt{2}} \approx 3.69552&lt;/math&gt;

none of which chords occur in a 16-cell or 120-cell except &lt;math&gt;r_1=\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;. 

In the unit-radius 120-cell, the great square edge chord &lt;math&gt;c_{15} = \sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt; occurs in 675 distinct (75 disjoint) 16-cells. The vertex coordinates of each 16-cell form 6 central squares lying in 6 pairwise [[W:Orthogonal|orthogonal]] coordinate planes. Great squares in ''opposite'' planes that do not share an axis (e.g. in the ''xy'' and ''wz'' planes) are completely disjoint (they do not intersect at any vertices). These planes are [[W:Completely orthogonal|completely orthogonal]].{{Efn|name=Six orthogonal planes of the Cartesian basis}}

[[W:Rotations in 4-dimensional Euclidean space|Rotations in 4-dimensional Euclidean space]] can be seen as the composition of two 2-dimensional rotations in completely orthogonal planes. The general rotation in 4-space is a double rotation in pairs of completely orthogonal planes. Two completely orthogonal planes are called invariant planes of the rotation when all points in the plane rotate on circles that remain in the plane, even as the whole plane tilts sideways (like a coin flipping) into another plane. The two completely orthogonal rotations of each plane (like a wheel, and like a coin flipping) are simultaneous but independent, in that they are not geometrically constrained to turn at the same rate. However, the most circular kind of rotation (as opposed to an elliptical double rotation of a rigid spherical object) occurs when the invariant planes do rotate through the same angle in the same time interval. Such equi-angled double rotations are called [[w:SO(4)#Isoclinic_rotations|isoclinic]], also [[w:William_Kingdon_Clifford|Clifford]] displacements.

The 16-cell is the simplest possible frame in which to [[16-cell#Rotations|observe 4-dimensional rotations]] because its characteristic isoclinic rotations feature a single pair of invariant rotation planes. In the 16-cell an isoclinic rotation by 90° in any pair of invariant completely orthogonal square central planes takes every square central plane to its completely orthogonal square central plane, and takes every vertex to its antipodal vertex 180° degrees away. All the vertices move at once, displaced 180° in 8 orthogonal directions, and the rigid 16-cell assumes a new orientation in 4-space. The trajectory of each vertex is a one-eighth segment of its [[W:Geodesic|geodesic]] orbit. Its entire orbit traces a circular helix in 4-space, and also traces a great circle in one of the two completely orthogonal invariant rotation planes, as they tilt sideways into each other's plane. When the isoclinic rotation is continued in the same rotational direction through an additional 90°, each vertex is again displaced 180° to its antipodal position, but from the new orientation where the vertex is on the opposite side of the 16-cell departing in the opposite direction. In the course of a 720° isoclinic rotation each vertex departs from all 8 vertex positions just once, and returns to its original position.

== Hypercubes ==
The long diameter of the unit-edge [[W:Hypercube|hypercube]] of dimension &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;n&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; is &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{n}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;, so the unit-edge [[w:Tesseract|4-hypercube, the 16-point (8-cell) tesseract,]] has chords:
:&lt;math&gt;r_1=\sqrt{1},r_2=\sqrt{2},r_3=\sqrt{3},r_4=\sqrt{4}&lt;/math&gt;
Uniquely in its 4-dimensional case, the hypercube's edge length equals its radius, like the hexagon. We call such polytopes ''radially equilateral'', because they can be constructed from equilateral triangles which meet at their center, each contributing two radii and an edge. The cuboctahedron and the 24-cell are also radially equilateral.

The [[W:Tesseract|tesseract]] is the [[W:Regular convex 4-polytope|regular convex 4-polytope]] with [[W:Schläfli symbol|Schläfli symbol]] {4,3,3}. It has 16 vertices, 32 edges, 24 square faces, and 8 cube cells. It is the four-dimensional analogue of the cube.

The tesseract is the [[W:Dual polytope|dual polytope]] of the 16-cell. They have the same Petrie polygon, the regular octagon, but the tesseract contains 2 disjoint instances and 4 distinct instances of the skew octagon. We can construct the tesseract the way we constructed the 16-cell, by skewing a planar octagon's edges so they become edges of the 4-polytope. Because the tesseract has 16 vertices we will need two planar octagons, and to start we must embedded them in 4-space as completely orthogonal planes that intersect at only one point, their common center. Because the tesseract is radially equilateral (unlike the 16-cell), to build a unit-radius tesseract we start with our original octagon of unit-edge length, rather than the octagon of edge length &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; that we needed to build the unit-radius 16-cell.

For our tesseract construction we skew each planar octagon into a cube, so we have a compound of two completely orthogonal cubes. Provided the planes were completely orthogonal in 4-space and we skewed them both the same way, the 16 vertices will be the vertices of a tesseract with half of its 32 edges missing.

The 16-point tesseract is the convex hull of a compound of two 8-point 16-cells, in exact dimensional analogy to the way the 8-point cube is the convex hull of a [[W:Stellated octahedron|compound of two regular 4-point tetrahedra]]. The [[W:Demihypercube|demihypercubes]] occupy alternate vertices of the hypercubes. The diagonals of the square faces of the unit-radius tesseract are the &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; edges of two unit-radius 16-cells, which are also the edges of the square central planes.

Because the tesseract contains two 16-cells in alternate positions it has two sets of 6 orthogonal square central planes. Two angles are required to specify the relationship between two planes in 4-space. Pairs of planes within each 16-cell are 90° apart in one angle, and either 0° or 90° apart in the other angle. They are 90° apart in both angles if and only if they are completely orthogonal planes, 90° apart by isoclinic rotation, with no vertices in common and their corresponding vertices 180° apart. Otherwise they are 0° apart in one of the angles, 90° apart by simple rotation with their corresponding vertices 90° apart, and they intersect in one axis and lie in a common 3-dimensional hyperplane.{{Efn|A double rotation in which one of the two angles of rotation is 0°, so that one of the completely orthogonal invariant planes does not rotate, is called a simple rotation. Ordinary rotations observed in a 3-dimensional space are simple rotations.}}

A pair of square central planes from alternate 16-cells are 60° apart by isoclinic rotation, with their corresponding vertices 120° apart. The planes are not orthogonal or parallel, so they intersect in a line somewhere, but they have no vertices in common, they have no 3-dimensional hyperplane in common, and they cannot reach each other by simple rotation. Such pairs of objects are called [[W:Clifford parallel|Clifford parallel]] because all their corresponding pairs of vertices are the same distance apart, although they are not parallel in the usual sense, because they have a common center. Not only the alternate 16-cells' corresponding square central planes, but also the 16-cells themselves, are Clifford parallel objects.

We can rotate the tesseract isoclinically the way we rotated the 16-cell, by 90° in two completely orthogonal invariant square central planes, with the same effect on both alternate 16-cells. In the course of a 720° isoclinic rotation in invariant square central planes each vertex departs from all 8 vertex positions of its 16-cell just once and returns to its original position, but it does not visit the vertex positions of the other 16-cell. The skew octagon geodesic orbits of the 16 vertices are disjoint circular helixes, and those 16 circular helixes are Clifford parallel objects.

== The 24-cell ==
In 2-space we have the radially equilateral 6-point hexagon. In 3-space we have the radially equilateral 12-point cuboctahedron, with 4 hexagonal central planes. In 4-space we have the radially equilateral 24-point 24-cell, with 4 cuboctahedral central hyperplanes and 16 hexagonal central planes.

Great hexagons are a rounder choice than great squares for the invariant rotation planes in which to rotate a 4-polytope isoclinically. The complete hexagonal isoclinic revolution requires 720° like the complete square isoclinic revolution, but it is completed in 6 chordal steps of 120° each rather than 8 chordal steps of 180° each.

...

== The 600-cell ==

...

== Finally the 120-cell ==

...

== Conclusions ==

Fontaine and Hurley's discovery is more than a formula for the reciprocal of a regular ''n''-polygon diagonal. It also yields the discrete sequence of isocline chords of the distinct isoclinic rotation characteristic of a ''d''-dimensional regular polytope. The characteristic rotational chord sequence of the ''d''-polytope can be represented geometrically in two dimensions on a distinct star polygon, but it lies on a geodesic circle through ''d''-dimensional space. Fontaine and Hurley discovered the geodesic topology of polytopes generally. Their procedure will reveal the geodesics of arbitrary non-uniform polytopes, since it can be applied to a polytope of any dimensionality and irregularity, by first fitting the polytope to the smallest regular polygon whose chords include its chords.

Fontaine and Hurley's discovery of a chordal formula for isoclinic rotations closes the circuit on Kappraff and Adamson's discovery of a rotational connection between dynamical systems, Steinbach's golden fields, and Coxeter's Euclidean geometry of ''n'' dimensions. Application of the Fontaine and Hurley procedure in higher-dimensional spaces demonstrates why the connection exists: because polytope sequences generally, from Steinbach's golden polygon chord sequences, to chord sequences in isoclinic rotation helixes, to subsumption relations in the sequence of regular 4-polytopes, arise as expressions of the reflections and rotations of distinct Coxeter symmetry groups, when those various groups interact.

== Appendix: Sequence of regular 4-polytopes ==
{{Regular convex 4-polytopes|wiki=W:|columns=7}}

== Notes ==
{{Notelist}}

== Citations ==
{{Reflist}}

== References ==
{{Refbegin}}
* {{Cite journal | last=Steinbach | first=Peter | year=1997 | title=Golden fields: A case for the Heptagon | journal=Mathematics Magazine | volume=70 | issue=Feb 1997 | pages=22–31 | doi=10.1080/0025570X.1997.11996494 | jstor=2691048 | ref={{SfnRef|Steinbach|1997}} }}
* {{Cite journal | last=Steinbach | first=Peter | year=2000 | title=Sections Beyond Golden| journal=Bridges: Mathematical Connections in Art, Music and Science | issue=2000 | pages=35-44 | url=https://archive.bridgesmathart.org/2000/bridges2000-35.pdf | ref={{SfnRef|Steinbach|2000}}}}
* {{Cite journal | last1=Kappraff | first1=Jay | last2=Jablan | first2=Slavik | last3=Adamson | first3=Gary | last4=Sazdanovich | first4=Radmila | year=2004 | title=Golden Fields, Generalized Fibonacci Sequences, and Chaotic Matrices | journal=Forma | volume=19 | pages=367-387 | url=https://archive.bridgesmathart.org/2005/bridges2005-369.pdf | ref={{SfnRef|Kappraff, Jablan, Adamson &amp; Sazdanovich|2004}} }}
* {{Cite journal | last1=Kappraff | first1=Jay | last2=Adamson | first2=Gary | year=2004 | title=Polygons and Chaos | journal=Dynamical Systems and Geometric Theories | url=https://archive.bridgesmathart.org/2001/bridges2001-67.pdf | ref={{SfnRef|Kappraff &amp; Adamson|2004}} }}
* {{Cite journal | last1=Fontaine | first1=Anne | last2=Hurley | first2=Susan | year=2006 | title=Proof by Picture: Products and Reciprocals of Diagonal Length Ratios in the Regular Polygon | journal=Forum Geometricorum | volume=6 | pages=97-101 | url=https://scispace.com/pdf/proof-by-picture-products-and-reciprocals-of-diagonal-length-1aian8mgp9.pdf }}
{{Refend}}</text>
      <sha1>fthag4wdmoqm1agu1cevy66dzppq8zr</sha1>
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    <revision>
      <id>2808076</id>
      <parentid>2808075</parentid>
      <timestamp>2026-05-09T17:03:39Z</timestamp>
      <contributor>
        <username>Dc.samizdat</username>
        <id>2856930</id>
      </contributor>
      <comment>/* The 8-point regular polytopes */</comment>
      <origin>2808076</origin>
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      <text bytes="45790" sha1="2wbpiusmz9lhm68b0bop61ecew6thsl" xml:space="preserve">{{align|center|David Brooks Christie}}
{{align|center|dc@samizdat.org}}
{{align|center|Draft in progress}}
{{align|center|January 2026 - April 2026}}

&lt;blockquote&gt;Steinbach discovered the formula for the ratios of diagonal to side in the regular polygons. Fontaine and Hurley extended this result, discovering a formula for the reciprocal of a regular polygon chord derived geometrically from the chord's star polygon. We observe that these findings in plane geometry apply more generally, to polytopes of any dimensionality. Fontaine and Hurley's geometric procedure for finding the reciprocals of the chords of a regular polygon from their star polygons also finds the rotational geodesics of any polytope of any dimensionality.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
== Introduction ==
Steinbach discovered the Diagonal Product Formula and the Golden Fields family of ratios of diagonal to side in the regular polygons. He showed how this family extends beyond the pentagon {5} with its well-known golden bisection proportional to 𝜙, finding that the heptagon {7} has an analogous trisection, the nonagon {9} has an analogous quadrasection, and the hendecagon {11} has an analogous pentasection, an extended family of golden proportions with quasiperiodic properties. 

Kappraff and Adamson extended these findings in plane geometry to a theory of Generalized Fibonacci Sequences, showing that the Golden Fields not only do not end with the hendecagon, they form an infinite number of periodic trajectories when operated on by the Mandelbrot operator. They found a relation between the edges of star polygons and dynamical systems in the state of chaos, revealing a connection between chaos theory, number, and rotations in Coxeter Euclidean geometry. 

Fontaine and Hurley examined Steinbach's finding that the length of each chord of a regular polygon is both the product of two chords and the sum of a set of smaller chords, so that in rotations to add is to multiply. They illustrated Steinbach's sets of additive chords lying parallel to each other in the plane (pointing in the same direction), and by applying Steinbach's formula more generally they found another summation relation of signed parallel chords (pointing in opposite directions) which relates each chord length to its reciprocal, and relates the summation to a distinct star polygon rotation. 

We examine these remarkable findings (which stem from study of the chords of humble regular polygons) in higher-dimensional spaces, specifically in the chords, polygons and rotations of the [[120-cell]], the largest four-dimensional regular convex polytope.

== Visualizing the 120-cell ==
{| class=&quot;wikitable floatright&quot; width=&quot;400&quot;
|style=&quot;vertical-align:top&quot;|[[File:120-cell.gif|200px]]&lt;br&gt;Orthographic projection of the 600-point 120-cell &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\{5,3,3\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; performing a [[W:SO(4)#Geometry of 4D rotations|simple rotation]].{{Sfn|Hise|2011|loc=File:120-cell.gif|ps=; &quot;Created by Jason Hise with Maya and Macromedia Fireworks. A 3D projection of a 120-cell performing a [[W:SO(4)#Geometry of 4D rotations|simple rotation]].&quot;}} In this simplified rendering only the 120-cell's own edges are shown; its 29 interior chords are not rendered. Therefore even though it is translucent, only its outer surface is visible. The complex interior parts of the 120-cell, all its inscribed 5-cells, 16-cells, 8-cells, 24-cells, 600-cells and its much larger inventory of polyhedra, are completely invisible in this view, as none of their edges are rendered at all.
|style=&quot;vertical-align:top&quot;|[[File:Ortho solid 016-uniform polychoron p33-t0.png|200px]]&lt;br&gt;Orthographic projection of the 600-point [[W:Great grand stellated 120-cell|great grand stellated 120-cell]] &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\{\tfrac{5}{2},3,3\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;.{{Sfn|Ruen: Great grand stellated 120-cell|2007}} The 120-cell is its convex hull. The projection to the left renders only the 120-cell's shortest chord, its 1200 edges. The projection above also renders only one of the 120-cell's 30 chords, the edges of its 120 inscribed regular 5-cells. The 120-cell itself (the convex hull) is invisible in this view, as its edges are not rendered.
|}

[[120-cell#Geometry|The 120-cell is the maximally complex regular 4-polytope]], containing inscribed instances of every regular 1-, 2-, 3-, and 4-polytope, except the regular polygons of more than {15} sides. 

The 120-cell is the convex hull of a regular [[120-cell#Relationships among interior polytopes|compound of each of the 6 regular convex 4-polytopes]]. They are the [[5-cell|5-point (5-cell) 4-simplex]], the [[16-cell|8-point (16-cell) 4-orthoplex]], the [[W:Tesseract|16-point (8-cell) tesseract]], the [[24-cell|24-point (24-cell)]], the [[600-cell|120-point (600-cell)]], and the [[120-cell|600-point (120-cell)]]. The 120-cell is the convex hull of a compound of 120 disjoint regular 5-cells, of 75 disjoint 16-cells, of 25 disjoint 24-cells, and of 5 disjoint 600-cells.

The 120-cell contains an even larger inventory of irregular polytopes, created by the intersection of multiple instances of these component regular 4-polytopes. Many are quite unexpected, because they do not occur as components of any regular polytope smaller than the 120-cell. As just one example among the [[120-cell#Concentric hulls|sections of the 120-cell]], there is an irregular 24-point polyhedron with 16 triangle faces and 4 nonagon {9} faces.{{Sfn|Moxness|}}

Most renderings of the 120-cell, like the rotating projection here, only illustrate its outer surface, which is a honeycomb of face-bonded dodecahedral cells. Only the objects in its 3-dimensional surface are rendered, namely the 120 dodecahedra, their pentagon faces, and their edges. Although the 120-cell has chords of 30 distinct lengths, in this kind of simplified rendering only the 120-cell's own edges (its shortest chord) are shown. Its 29 interior chords, the edges of objects in the interior of the 120-cell, are not rendered, so interior objects are not visible at all.

Visualizing the complete interior of the 600-vertex 120-cell in a single image is impractical because of its complexity. Only four 120-cell edges are incident at each vertex, but [[120-cell#Chords|600 chords (of all 30 lengths)]] are incident at ''each'' vertex.

== Compounds in the 120-cell ==
The 8-point (16-cell), not the 5-point (5-cell), is the smallest building block; it compounds to every larger regular 4-polytope. The 5-point (5-cell) does compound to the 600-point (120-cell), but it does not fit into any smaller regular 4-polytope. 

The 8-point (16-cell) compounds by 2 in the 16-point (8-cell), and by 3 in the 24-point (24-cell). The 16-point (8-cell) compounds in the 24-point (24-cell) by 3 non-disjoint instances of itself, with each of the 24 vertices shared by two 16-point (8-cells). The 24-point (24-cell) compounds by 5 disjoint instances of itself in the 120-point (600-cell), and the 120-point (600-cell) compounds by 5 disjoint instances of itself in the 600-point (120-cell).

The 24-point (24-cell) also compounds by &lt;math&gt;5^2&lt;/math&gt; non-disjoint instances of itself in the 120-point (600-cell); it compounds in 5 disjoint instances of itself, 10 (not 5) different ways. Whichever set of 5 disjoint 24-point (24-cells) are assembled, the resulting 120-point (600-cell) contains 25 distinct 24-point (24-cells), not just 5 (or 10). This implies that 15 disjoint 8-point (16-cells) will construct a 120-point (600-cell), which will contain 75 distinct 8-point (16-cells). 

The 600-point (120-cell) is 5 disjoint 120-point (600-cells), just 2 different ways (not 5 or 10 ways), so it is 10 distinct 120-point (600-cells). This implies that the 8-point (16-cell) compounds by 3 times &lt;math&gt;5^2&lt;/math&gt; (75) disjoint instances of itself in the 600-point (120-cell), which contains &lt;math&gt;3^2&lt;/math&gt; times  &lt;math&gt;5^2&lt;/math&gt; (225) distinct instances of the 24-point (24-cell), and  &lt;math&gt;3^3&lt;/math&gt; times &lt;math&gt;5^2&lt;/math&gt; (675) distinct instances of the 8-point (16-cell). 

These facts were discovered painstakingly by various researchers, and no one has found a general rule governing subsumption relations among regular polytopes. The reasons for some of their numeric incidence relations are far from obvious. [[W:Pieter Hendrik Schoute|Schoute]] was the first to see that the 120-point (600-cell) is a compound of 5 24-point (24-cells) ''10 different ways'', and after he saw it a hundred years lapsed until Denney, Hooker, Johnson, Robinson, Butler &amp; Claiborne proved his result, and showed why.{{Sfn|Denney, Hooker, Johnson, Robinson, Butler &amp; Claiborne|2020|loc=''The geometry of H4 polytopes''}}

So much for the compounds of 16-cells. The 120-cell is also the convex hull of the compound of 120 disjoint regular 5-cells. That stellated compound (without its convex hull of 120-cell edges) is the [[w:Great_grand_stellated_120-cell|great grand stellated 120-cell]] illustrated above, the final regular [[W:Stellation|stellation]] of the 120-cell, and the only [[W:Schläfli-Hess polychoron|regular star 4-polytope]] to have the 120-cell for its convex hull. The edges of the great grand stellated 120-cell are &lt;math&gt;\phi^6&lt;/math&gt; as long as those of its 120-cell [[W:List of polyhedral stellations#Stellation process|stellation core]] deep inside.

The compound of 120 disjoint 5-point (5-cells) can be seen to be equivalent to the compound of 5 disjoint 120-point (600-cells), as follows. Beginning with a single 120-point (600-cell), expand each vertex into a regular 5-cell, by adding 4 new equidistant vertices, such that the 5 vertices form a regular 5-cell inscribed in the 3-sphere. The 120 5-cells are disjoint, and the 600 vertices form 5 disjoint 120-point (600-cells): a 120-cell.

== Thirty distinguished distances ==
The 30 numbers listed in the table are all-important in Euclidean geometry. A case can be made on symmetry grounds that their squares are the 30 most important numbers between 0 and 4. The 30 rows of the table are the 30 distinct [[120-cell#Geodesic rectangles|chord lengths of the unit-radius 120-cell]], the largest regular convex 4-polytope. Since the 120-cell subsumes all smaller regular polytopes, its 30 chords are the complete chord set of all the regular polytopes that can be constructed in the first four dimensions of Euclidean space, except for regular polygons of more than 15 sides.

{| class=&quot;wikitable&quot; style=&quot;white-space:nowrap;text-align:center&quot;
!rowspan=2|&lt;math&gt;c_t&lt;/math&gt;
!rowspan=2|arc
!rowspan=2|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{n}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
!rowspan=2|&lt;math&gt;\left\{p\right\}&lt;/math&gt;
!rowspan=2|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;m\left\{\frac{k}{d}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
!rowspan=2|Steinbach roots
!colspan=7|Chord lengths of the unit 120-cell
|-
!colspan=5|unit-radius length &lt;math&gt;c_t&lt;/math&gt;
!colspan=2|unit-edge length &lt;math&gt;c_t/c_1&lt;/math&gt;&lt;br&gt;in 120-cell of radius &lt;math&gt;c_8=\sqrt{2}\phi^2&lt;/math&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{1,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;15.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{30\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{30\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{4,1}-c_{2,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{7-3 \sqrt{5}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.270091&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\sqrt{2} \phi ^2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2 \phi ^4}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.072949}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{2,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;25.2{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{2}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2 \left\{15\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \left(c_{18,1}-c_{4,1}\right)&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{3-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.437016&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\sqrt{2} \phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2 \phi ^2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.190983}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi &lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.61803&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{3,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;36{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{3}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{10\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;3 \left\{\frac{10}{3}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \left(\sqrt{5}-1\right) c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \left(\sqrt{5}-1\right)&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.618034&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{\phi ^2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.381966}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2} \phi &lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2.28825&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{4,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;41.4{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{60}{7}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{c_{8,1}}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.707107&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2.61803&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{5,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;44.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{4}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2 \left\{\frac{15}{2}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3} c_{2,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{9-3 \sqrt{5}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.756934&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}}}{\phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2 \phi ^2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.572949}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3} \phi &lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2.80252&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{6,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;49.1{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{120}{17}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{5-\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{5-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.831254&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\frac{1}{\phi }}}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{\sqrt{5}}{2 \phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.690983}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\phi ^3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;3.07768&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{7,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;56.0{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{20}{3}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}-\frac{1}{\phi }} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}-\frac{2}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.93913&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{\frac{\psi }{\phi }}}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{\psi }{2 \phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.881966}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\psi  \phi ^3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;3.47709&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;60{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{5}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{6\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{6\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;3.70246&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{9,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;66.1{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{40}{7}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}-\frac{1}{2 \phi }} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}-\frac{1}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.09132&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{\frac{\chi }{\phi }}}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{\chi }{2 \phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.19098}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\chi  \phi ^3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;4.04057&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{10,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;69.8{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{60}{11}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi  c_{4,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1+\sqrt{5}}{2 \sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.14412&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\phi }{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{\phi ^2}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.30902}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^3&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;4.23607&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{11,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;72{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{6}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{5\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{5\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\frac{1}{\phi }} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\frac{2}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.17557&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3-\phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3-\phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.38197}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2} \sqrt{3-\phi } \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;4.3525&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{12,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;75.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{24}{5}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.22474&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;4.53457&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{13,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;81.1{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{60}{13}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{9-\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{9-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.30038&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{9-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{4} \left(9-\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.69098}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2} \left(9-\sqrt{5}\right)} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;4.8146&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{14,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;84.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{40}{9}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\phi } c_{8,1}}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{1+\sqrt{5}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.345&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\phi }}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{\sqrt{5} \phi }{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.80902}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\phi ^5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;4.9798&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{15,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;90.0{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{7}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{4\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{4\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2 c_{4,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.41421&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2 \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;5.23607&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{16,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;95.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{120}{29}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{11-\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{11-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.4802&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{11-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{4} \left(11-\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.19098}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2} \left(11-\sqrt{5}\right)} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;5.48037&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{17,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;98.9{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{120}{31}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{7+\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{7+\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.51954&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{7+\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{4} \left(7+\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.30902}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\psi  \phi ^5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;5.62605&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{18,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;104.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{8}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{15}{4}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.58114&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{5} \sqrt{\phi ^4}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;5.8541&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{19,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;108.0{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{9}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{10}{3}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{3,1}+c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \left(1+\sqrt{5}\right)&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.61803&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi &lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1+\phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.61803}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2} \phi ^3&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;5.9907&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{20,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;110.2{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{120}{7}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{13-\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{13-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.64042&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{13-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{4} \left(13-\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.69098}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2 \sqrt{8-\phi ^2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.07359&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{21,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;113.9{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{60}{19}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}+\frac{1}{1+\sqrt{5}}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}+\frac{1}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.67601&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}+\frac{1}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}+\frac{1}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.80902}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2 \sqrt{8-\frac{\chi }{\phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.20537&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{22,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;120{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{10}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{3\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{3\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.73205&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{6} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.41285&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{23,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;124.0{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{120}{41}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{\phi }+\frac{5}{2}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}+\frac{2}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.7658&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{4-\frac{\psi }{2 \phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{4-\frac{\psi }{2 \phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.11803}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\chi  \phi ^5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.53779&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{24,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;130.9{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{20}{7}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{11+\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{11+\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.81907&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{11+\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{4} \left(11+\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.30902}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2 \sqrt{8-\frac{\sqrt{5}}{\phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.73503&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{25,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;135.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{11}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{11}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{7+3 \sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{7+3 \sqrt{5}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.85123&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\phi ^2}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{\phi ^4}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.42705}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^4&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.8541&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{26,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;138.6{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{12}{5}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{7}{2}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{7}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.87083&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{7}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{7}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{7} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.92667&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{27,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;144{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{12}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{5}{2}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2} \left(5+\sqrt{5}\right)} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2} \left(5+\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.90211&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\phi +2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2+\phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.61803}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2 \sqrt{2 \phi +4}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;7.0425&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{28,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;154.8{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{13}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{13}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{13+\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{13+\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.95167&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{13+\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{4} \left(13+\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.80902}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2 \sqrt{8-\frac{1}{\phi ^2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;7.22598&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{29,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;164.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{14}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{15}{7}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi  c_{12,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{\frac{3}{2}} \left(1+\sqrt{5}\right)&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.98168&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}} \phi &lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3 \phi ^2}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.92705}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3} \phi ^3&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;7.33708&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{30,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;180{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{15}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{2\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{2\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2 c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2.&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{4}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{4.}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2 \sqrt{2} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;7.40492&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|rowspan=4 colspan=6|
|rowspan=4 colspan=4|
&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; is the golden ratio:&lt;br&gt;
&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2-\phi -1=0&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;&lt;br&gt;
&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\phi }+1=\phi&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;, and: &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi+1=\phi^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;&lt;br&gt;
&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\phi }::1::\phi ::\phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;&lt;br&gt;
&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1/\phi&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; and &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; are the golden sections of &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;:&lt;br&gt;
&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi +\frac{1}{\phi }=\sqrt{5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|colspan=2|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi = (\sqrt{5} + 1)/2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.618034&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|colspan=2|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\chi = (3\sqrt{5} + 1)/2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;3.854102&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|colspan=2|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\psi = (3\sqrt{5} - 1)/2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2.854102&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|colspan=2|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\psi = 11/\chi = 22/(3\sqrt{5} + 1)&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2.854102&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|}

...

== The 8-point regular polytopes ==
In 2-space we have the regular 8-point octagon, in 3-space the regular 8-point cube, and in 4-space the regular 8-point [[W:16-cell|16-cell]].

A planar octagon with rigid edges of unit length has chords of length:

:&lt;math&gt;r_1=1,r_2=\sqrt{2+\sqrt{2}} \approx 1.84776,r_3=1+\sqrt{2} \approx 2.41421,r_4=\sqrt{4 + \sqrt{8}} \approx 2.61313&lt;/math&gt;

The chord ratio &lt;math&gt;r_3=1+\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt; is a geometrical proportion, the [[W:Silver ratio|silver ratio]]. Fontaine and Hurley's procedure for obtaining the reciprocal of a chord tells us that:

:&lt;math&gt;r_3-r_1-r_1=1/r_3 \approx 0.41421&lt;/math&gt;

Notice that &lt;math&gt;1/r_3=\sqrt{2}-1=r_3-2&lt;/math&gt;.

If we embed this planar octagon in 3-space, we can make it skew, repositioning its vertices so that each is one unit-edge length distant from three others instead of two others, so we obtain a unit-edge cube with chords of length:

:&lt;math&gt;r_1=1, r_2=\sqrt{2}, r_3=\sqrt{3}, r_4=\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;

If we embed this cube in 4-space, we can skew it some more, repositioning its vertices so that each is one unit-edge length distant from six others instead of three others, so we obtain a unit-edge 4-polytope with chords of length:

:&lt;math&gt;r_1=1,r_2=1,r_3=1,r_4=\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;

All of its chords except its long diameters are the same unit length as its edge. In fact they are its 24 edges, and it is a 16-cell of radius &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1/\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;.

[[File:octagon16cell.png|thumb|A &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;B_4&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; orthogonal projection of a regular 16-cell. Only its edges are shown; its long diameter chords are not drawn. All of the 24 edges are the same length. Only the edges of two completely orthogonal squares lie parallel to the view plane.]]

The [[16-cell]] is the [[W:Regular convex 4-polytope|regular convex 4-polytope]] with [[W:Schläfli symbol|Schläfli symbol]] {3,3,4}. It has 8 vertices, 24 edges, 32 equilateral triangle faces, and 16 regular tetrahedron cells. It is the [[16-cell#Octahedral dipyramid|four-dimensional analogue of the octahedron]], and each of its four orthogonal central hyperplanes is an octahedron.

The only planar regular polygons found in the 16-cell are face triangles and central plane squares, but the 16-cell also contains a regular skew octagon, its [[W:Petrie polygon|Petrie polygon]]. The chords of this regular octagon, which lies skew in 4-space, are those given above for the 16-cell, as opposed to those for the cube or the regular octagon in the plane. The 16-cell has 3 such Petrie octagons, which share the same 8 vertices but have disjoint sets of 8 edges each.

The regular octad has higher symmetry in 4-space than it does in 2-space. The 16-cell is the 4-orthoplex, the simplest regular 4-polytope after the [[5-cell|4-simplex]]. All the larger regular 4-polytopes, including the 120-cell, are compounds of the 16-cell. The regular octagon exhibits this high symmetry only when embedded in 4-space at the vertices of the 16-cell.

The 16-cell constitutes an [[W:Orthonormal basis|orthonormal basis]] for the choice of a 4-dimensional Cartesian reference frame, because its vertices define four orthogonal axes. The eight vertices of a unit-radius 16-cell are (±1, 0, 0, 0), (0, ±1, 0, 0), (0, 0, ±1, 0), (0, 0, 0, ±1). All vertices are connected by &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; edges except opposite pairs. In this convenient unit-radius 4-coordinate system, the original planar octagon we started with had chords of length:

:&lt;math&gt;r_1=\sqrt{2},r_2=\sqrt{2(2+\sqrt{2})} \approx 2.61313,r_3=2+\sqrt{2} \approx 3.41421,r_4=2 \sqrt{2+\sqrt{2}} \approx 3.69552&lt;/math&gt;

none of which chords occur in a 16-cell or 120-cell except &lt;math&gt;r_1=\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;. 

In the unit-radius 120-cell, the great square edge chord &lt;math&gt;c_{15} = \sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt; occurs in 675 distinct (75 disjoint) 16-cells. The vertex coordinates of each 16-cell form 6 central squares lying in 6 pairwise [[W:Orthogonal|orthogonal]] coordinate planes. Great squares in ''opposite'' planes that do not share an axis (e.g. in the ''xy'' and ''wz'' planes) are completely disjoint (they do not intersect at any vertices). These planes are [[W:Completely orthogonal|completely orthogonal]].{{Efn|name=Six orthogonal planes of the Cartesian basis}}

[[W:Rotations in 4-dimensional Euclidean space|Rotations in 4-dimensional Euclidean space]] can be seen as the composition of two 2-dimensional rotations in completely orthogonal planes. The general rotation in 4-space is a double rotation in pairs of completely orthogonal planes. Two completely orthogonal planes are called invariant planes of the rotation when all points in the plane rotate on circles that remain in the plane, even as the whole plane tilts sideways (like a coin flipping) into another plane. The two completely orthogonal rotations of each plane (like a wheel, and like a coin flipping) are simultaneous but independent, in that they are not geometrically constrained to turn at the same rate. However, the most circular kind of rotation (as opposed to an elliptical double rotation of a rigid spherical object) occurs when the invariant planes do rotate through the same angle in the same time interval. Such equi-angled double rotations are called [[w:SO(4)#Isoclinic_rotations|isoclinic]], also [[w:William_Kingdon_Clifford|Clifford]] displacements.

The 16-cell is the simplest possible frame in which to [[16-cell#Rotations|observe 4-dimensional rotations]] because its characteristic isoclinic rotations feature a single pair of invariant rotation planes. In the 16-cell an isoclinic rotation by 90° in any pair of invariant completely orthogonal square central planes takes every square central plane to its completely orthogonal square central plane, and takes every vertex to its antipodal vertex 180° degrees away. All the vertices move at once, displaced 180° in 8 orthogonal directions, and the rigid 16-cell assumes a new orientation in 4-space. The trajectory of each vertex is a one-eighth segment of its [[W:Geodesic|geodesic]] orbit. Its entire orbit traces a circular helix in 4-space, and also traces a great circle in one of the two completely orthogonal invariant rotation planes, as they tilt sideways into each other's plane. When the isoclinic rotation is continued in the same rotational direction through an additional 90°, each vertex is again displaced 180° to its antipodal position, but from the new orientation where the vertex is on the opposite side of the 16-cell departing in the opposite direction. In the course of a 720° isoclinic rotation each vertex departs from all 8 vertex positions just once, and returns to its original position.

== Hypercubes ==
The long diameter of the unit-edge [[W:Hypercube|hypercube]] of dimension &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;n&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; is &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{n}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;, so the unit-edge [[w:Tesseract|4-hypercube, the 16-point (8-cell) tesseract,]] has chords:
:&lt;math&gt;r_1=\sqrt{1},r_2=\sqrt{2},r_3=\sqrt{3},r_4=\sqrt{4}&lt;/math&gt;
Uniquely in its 4-dimensional case, the hypercube's edge length equals its radius, like the hexagon. We call such polytopes ''radially equilateral'', because they can be constructed from equilateral triangles which meet at their center, each contributing two radii and an edge. The cuboctahedron and the 24-cell are also radially equilateral.

The [[W:Tesseract|tesseract]] is the [[W:Regular convex 4-polytope|regular convex 4-polytope]] with [[W:Schläfli symbol|Schläfli symbol]] {4,3,3}. It has 16 vertices, 32 edges, 24 square faces, and 8 cube cells. It is the four-dimensional analogue of the cube.

The tesseract is the [[W:Dual polytope|dual polytope]] of the 16-cell. They have the same Petrie polygon, the regular octagon, but the tesseract contains 2 disjoint instances and 4 distinct instances of the skew octagon. We can construct the tesseract the way we constructed the 16-cell, by skewing a planar octagon's edges so they become edges of the 4-polytope. Because the tesseract has 16 vertices we will need two planar octagons, and to start we must embedded them in 4-space as completely orthogonal planes that intersect at only one point, their common center. Because the tesseract is radially equilateral (unlike the 16-cell), to build a unit-radius tesseract we start with our original octagon of unit-edge length, rather than the octagon of edge length &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; that we needed to build the unit-radius 16-cell.

For our tesseract construction we skew each planar octagon into a cube, so we have a compound of two completely orthogonal cubes. Provided the planes were completely orthogonal in 4-space and we skewed them both the same way, the 16 vertices will be the vertices of a tesseract with half of its 32 edges missing.

The 16-point tesseract is the convex hull of a compound of two 8-point 16-cells, in exact dimensional analogy to the way the 8-point cube is the convex hull of a [[W:Stellated octahedron|compound of two regular 4-point tetrahedra]]. The [[W:Demihypercube|demihypercubes]] occupy alternate vertices of the hypercubes. The diagonals of the square faces of the unit-radius tesseract are the &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; edges of two unit-radius 16-cells, which are also the edges of the square central planes.

Because the tesseract contains two 16-cells in alternate positions it has two sets of 6 orthogonal square central planes. Two angles are required to specify the relationship between two planes in 4-space. Pairs of planes within each 16-cell are 90° apart in one angle, and either 0° or 90° apart in the other angle. They are 90° apart in both angles if and only if they are completely orthogonal planes, 90° apart by isoclinic rotation, with no vertices in common and their corresponding vertices 180° apart. Otherwise they are 0° apart in one of the angles, 90° apart by simple rotation with their corresponding vertices 90° apart, and they intersect in one axis and lie in a common 3-dimensional hyperplane.{{Efn|A double rotation in which one of the two angles of rotation is 0°, so that one of the completely orthogonal invariant planes does not rotate, is called a simple rotation. Ordinary rotations observed in a 3-dimensional space are simple rotations.}}

A pair of square central planes from alternate 16-cells are 60° apart by isoclinic rotation, with their corresponding vertices 120° apart. The planes are not orthogonal or parallel, so they intersect in a line somewhere, but they have no vertices in common, they have no 3-dimensional hyperplane in common, and they cannot reach each other by simple rotation. Such pairs of objects are called [[W:Clifford parallel|Clifford parallel]] because all their corresponding pairs of vertices are the same distance apart, although they are not parallel in the usual sense, because they have a common center. Not only the alternate 16-cells' corresponding square central planes, but also the 16-cells themselves, are Clifford parallel objects.

We can rotate the tesseract isoclinically the way we rotated the 16-cell, by 90° in two completely orthogonal invariant square central planes, with the same effect on both alternate 16-cells. In the course of a 720° isoclinic rotation in invariant square central planes each vertex departs from all 8 vertex positions of its 16-cell just once and returns to its original position, but it does not visit the vertex positions of the other 16-cell. The skew octagon geodesic orbits of the 16 vertices are disjoint circular helixes, and those 16 circular helixes are Clifford parallel objects.

== The 24-cell ==
In 2-space we have the radially equilateral 6-point hexagon. In 3-space we have the radially equilateral 12-point cuboctahedron, with 4 hexagonal central planes. In 4-space we have the radially equilateral 24-point 24-cell, with 4 cuboctahedral central hyperplanes and 16 hexagonal central planes.

Great hexagons are a rounder choice than great squares for the invariant rotation planes in which to rotate a 4-polytope isoclinically. The complete hexagonal isoclinic revolution requires 720° like the complete square isoclinic revolution, but it is completed in 6 chordal steps of 120° each rather than 8 chordal steps of 180° each.

...

== The 600-cell ==

...

== Finally the 120-cell ==

...

== Conclusions ==

Fontaine and Hurley's discovery is more than a formula for the reciprocal of a regular ''n''-polygon diagonal. It also yields the discrete sequence of isocline chords of the distinct isoclinic rotation characteristic of a ''d''-dimensional regular polytope. The characteristic rotational chord sequence of the ''d''-polytope can be represented geometrically in two dimensions on a distinct star polygon, but it lies on a geodesic circle through ''d''-dimensional space. Fontaine and Hurley discovered the geodesic topology of polytopes generally. Their procedure will reveal the geodesics of arbitrary non-uniform polytopes, since it can be applied to a polytope of any dimensionality and irregularity, by first fitting the polytope to the smallest regular polygon whose chords include its chords.

Fontaine and Hurley's discovery of a chordal formula for isoclinic rotations closes the circuit on Kappraff and Adamson's discovery of a rotational connection between dynamical systems, Steinbach's golden fields, and Coxeter's Euclidean geometry of ''n'' dimensions. Application of the Fontaine and Hurley procedure in higher-dimensional spaces demonstrates why the connection exists: because polytope sequences generally, from Steinbach's golden polygon chord sequences, to chord sequences in isoclinic rotation helixes, to subsumption relations in the sequence of regular 4-polytopes, arise as expressions of the reflections and rotations of distinct Coxeter symmetry groups, when those various groups interact.

== Appendix: Sequence of regular 4-polytopes ==
{{Regular convex 4-polytopes|wiki=W:|columns=7}}

== Notes ==
{{Notelist}}

== Citations ==
{{Reflist}}

== References ==
{{Refbegin}}
* {{Cite journal | last=Steinbach | first=Peter | year=1997 | title=Golden fields: A case for the Heptagon | journal=Mathematics Magazine | volume=70 | issue=Feb 1997 | pages=22–31 | doi=10.1080/0025570X.1997.11996494 | jstor=2691048 | ref={{SfnRef|Steinbach|1997}} }}
* {{Cite journal | last=Steinbach | first=Peter | year=2000 | title=Sections Beyond Golden| journal=Bridges: Mathematical Connections in Art, Music and Science | issue=2000 | pages=35-44 | url=https://archive.bridgesmathart.org/2000/bridges2000-35.pdf | ref={{SfnRef|Steinbach|2000}}}}
* {{Cite journal | last1=Kappraff | first1=Jay | last2=Jablan | first2=Slavik | last3=Adamson | first3=Gary | last4=Sazdanovich | first4=Radmila | year=2004 | title=Golden Fields, Generalized Fibonacci Sequences, and Chaotic Matrices | journal=Forma | volume=19 | pages=367-387 | url=https://archive.bridgesmathart.org/2005/bridges2005-369.pdf | ref={{SfnRef|Kappraff, Jablan, Adamson &amp; Sazdanovich|2004}} }}
* {{Cite journal | last1=Kappraff | first1=Jay | last2=Adamson | first2=Gary | year=2004 | title=Polygons and Chaos | journal=Dynamical Systems and Geometric Theories | url=https://archive.bridgesmathart.org/2001/bridges2001-67.pdf | ref={{SfnRef|Kappraff &amp; Adamson|2004}} }}
* {{Cite journal | last1=Fontaine | first1=Anne | last2=Hurley | first2=Susan | year=2006 | title=Proof by Picture: Products and Reciprocals of Diagonal Length Ratios in the Regular Polygon | journal=Forum Geometricorum | volume=6 | pages=97-101 | url=https://scispace.com/pdf/proof-by-picture-products-and-reciprocals-of-diagonal-length-1aian8mgp9.pdf }}
{{Refend}}</text>
      <sha1>2wbpiusmz9lhm68b0bop61ecew6thsl</sha1>
    </revision>
    <revision>
      <id>2808077</id>
      <parentid>2808076</parentid>
      <timestamp>2026-05-09T17:04:41Z</timestamp>
      <contributor>
        <username>Dc.samizdat</username>
        <id>2856930</id>
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      <comment>/* The 8-point regular polytopes */</comment>
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      <text bytes="45799" sha1="59wsj75favxid8tauy6hn0tevsspoxr" xml:space="preserve">{{align|center|David Brooks Christie}}
{{align|center|dc@samizdat.org}}
{{align|center|Draft in progress}}
{{align|center|January 2026 - April 2026}}

&lt;blockquote&gt;Steinbach discovered the formula for the ratios of diagonal to side in the regular polygons. Fontaine and Hurley extended this result, discovering a formula for the reciprocal of a regular polygon chord derived geometrically from the chord's star polygon. We observe that these findings in plane geometry apply more generally, to polytopes of any dimensionality. Fontaine and Hurley's geometric procedure for finding the reciprocals of the chords of a regular polygon from their star polygons also finds the rotational geodesics of any polytope of any dimensionality.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
== Introduction ==
Steinbach discovered the Diagonal Product Formula and the Golden Fields family of ratios of diagonal to side in the regular polygons. He showed how this family extends beyond the pentagon {5} with its well-known golden bisection proportional to 𝜙, finding that the heptagon {7} has an analogous trisection, the nonagon {9} has an analogous quadrasection, and the hendecagon {11} has an analogous pentasection, an extended family of golden proportions with quasiperiodic properties. 

Kappraff and Adamson extended these findings in plane geometry to a theory of Generalized Fibonacci Sequences, showing that the Golden Fields not only do not end with the hendecagon, they form an infinite number of periodic trajectories when operated on by the Mandelbrot operator. They found a relation between the edges of star polygons and dynamical systems in the state of chaos, revealing a connection between chaos theory, number, and rotations in Coxeter Euclidean geometry. 

Fontaine and Hurley examined Steinbach's finding that the length of each chord of a regular polygon is both the product of two chords and the sum of a set of smaller chords, so that in rotations to add is to multiply. They illustrated Steinbach's sets of additive chords lying parallel to each other in the plane (pointing in the same direction), and by applying Steinbach's formula more generally they found another summation relation of signed parallel chords (pointing in opposite directions) which relates each chord length to its reciprocal, and relates the summation to a distinct star polygon rotation. 

We examine these remarkable findings (which stem from study of the chords of humble regular polygons) in higher-dimensional spaces, specifically in the chords, polygons and rotations of the [[120-cell]], the largest four-dimensional regular convex polytope.

== Visualizing the 120-cell ==
{| class=&quot;wikitable floatright&quot; width=&quot;400&quot;
|style=&quot;vertical-align:top&quot;|[[File:120-cell.gif|200px]]&lt;br&gt;Orthographic projection of the 600-point 120-cell &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\{5,3,3\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; performing a [[W:SO(4)#Geometry of 4D rotations|simple rotation]].{{Sfn|Hise|2011|loc=File:120-cell.gif|ps=; &quot;Created by Jason Hise with Maya and Macromedia Fireworks. A 3D projection of a 120-cell performing a [[W:SO(4)#Geometry of 4D rotations|simple rotation]].&quot;}} In this simplified rendering only the 120-cell's own edges are shown; its 29 interior chords are not rendered. Therefore even though it is translucent, only its outer surface is visible. The complex interior parts of the 120-cell, all its inscribed 5-cells, 16-cells, 8-cells, 24-cells, 600-cells and its much larger inventory of polyhedra, are completely invisible in this view, as none of their edges are rendered at all.
|style=&quot;vertical-align:top&quot;|[[File:Ortho solid 016-uniform polychoron p33-t0.png|200px]]&lt;br&gt;Orthographic projection of the 600-point [[W:Great grand stellated 120-cell|great grand stellated 120-cell]] &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\{\tfrac{5}{2},3,3\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;.{{Sfn|Ruen: Great grand stellated 120-cell|2007}} The 120-cell is its convex hull. The projection to the left renders only the 120-cell's shortest chord, its 1200 edges. The projection above also renders only one of the 120-cell's 30 chords, the edges of its 120 inscribed regular 5-cells. The 120-cell itself (the convex hull) is invisible in this view, as its edges are not rendered.
|}

[[120-cell#Geometry|The 120-cell is the maximally complex regular 4-polytope]], containing inscribed instances of every regular 1-, 2-, 3-, and 4-polytope, except the regular polygons of more than {15} sides. 

The 120-cell is the convex hull of a regular [[120-cell#Relationships among interior polytopes|compound of each of the 6 regular convex 4-polytopes]]. They are the [[5-cell|5-point (5-cell) 4-simplex]], the [[16-cell|8-point (16-cell) 4-orthoplex]], the [[W:Tesseract|16-point (8-cell) tesseract]], the [[24-cell|24-point (24-cell)]], the [[600-cell|120-point (600-cell)]], and the [[120-cell|600-point (120-cell)]]. The 120-cell is the convex hull of a compound of 120 disjoint regular 5-cells, of 75 disjoint 16-cells, of 25 disjoint 24-cells, and of 5 disjoint 600-cells.

The 120-cell contains an even larger inventory of irregular polytopes, created by the intersection of multiple instances of these component regular 4-polytopes. Many are quite unexpected, because they do not occur as components of any regular polytope smaller than the 120-cell. As just one example among the [[120-cell#Concentric hulls|sections of the 120-cell]], there is an irregular 24-point polyhedron with 16 triangle faces and 4 nonagon {9} faces.{{Sfn|Moxness|}}

Most renderings of the 120-cell, like the rotating projection here, only illustrate its outer surface, which is a honeycomb of face-bonded dodecahedral cells. Only the objects in its 3-dimensional surface are rendered, namely the 120 dodecahedra, their pentagon faces, and their edges. Although the 120-cell has chords of 30 distinct lengths, in this kind of simplified rendering only the 120-cell's own edges (its shortest chord) are shown. Its 29 interior chords, the edges of objects in the interior of the 120-cell, are not rendered, so interior objects are not visible at all.

Visualizing the complete interior of the 600-vertex 120-cell in a single image is impractical because of its complexity. Only four 120-cell edges are incident at each vertex, but [[120-cell#Chords|600 chords (of all 30 lengths)]] are incident at ''each'' vertex.

== Compounds in the 120-cell ==
The 8-point (16-cell), not the 5-point (5-cell), is the smallest building block; it compounds to every larger regular 4-polytope. The 5-point (5-cell) does compound to the 600-point (120-cell), but it does not fit into any smaller regular 4-polytope. 

The 8-point (16-cell) compounds by 2 in the 16-point (8-cell), and by 3 in the 24-point (24-cell). The 16-point (8-cell) compounds in the 24-point (24-cell) by 3 non-disjoint instances of itself, with each of the 24 vertices shared by two 16-point (8-cells). The 24-point (24-cell) compounds by 5 disjoint instances of itself in the 120-point (600-cell), and the 120-point (600-cell) compounds by 5 disjoint instances of itself in the 600-point (120-cell).

The 24-point (24-cell) also compounds by &lt;math&gt;5^2&lt;/math&gt; non-disjoint instances of itself in the 120-point (600-cell); it compounds in 5 disjoint instances of itself, 10 (not 5) different ways. Whichever set of 5 disjoint 24-point (24-cells) are assembled, the resulting 120-point (600-cell) contains 25 distinct 24-point (24-cells), not just 5 (or 10). This implies that 15 disjoint 8-point (16-cells) will construct a 120-point (600-cell), which will contain 75 distinct 8-point (16-cells). 

The 600-point (120-cell) is 5 disjoint 120-point (600-cells), just 2 different ways (not 5 or 10 ways), so it is 10 distinct 120-point (600-cells). This implies that the 8-point (16-cell) compounds by 3 times &lt;math&gt;5^2&lt;/math&gt; (75) disjoint instances of itself in the 600-point (120-cell), which contains &lt;math&gt;3^2&lt;/math&gt; times  &lt;math&gt;5^2&lt;/math&gt; (225) distinct instances of the 24-point (24-cell), and  &lt;math&gt;3^3&lt;/math&gt; times &lt;math&gt;5^2&lt;/math&gt; (675) distinct instances of the 8-point (16-cell). 

These facts were discovered painstakingly by various researchers, and no one has found a general rule governing subsumption relations among regular polytopes. The reasons for some of their numeric incidence relations are far from obvious. [[W:Pieter Hendrik Schoute|Schoute]] was the first to see that the 120-point (600-cell) is a compound of 5 24-point (24-cells) ''10 different ways'', and after he saw it a hundred years lapsed until Denney, Hooker, Johnson, Robinson, Butler &amp; Claiborne proved his result, and showed why.{{Sfn|Denney, Hooker, Johnson, Robinson, Butler &amp; Claiborne|2020|loc=''The geometry of H4 polytopes''}}

So much for the compounds of 16-cells. The 120-cell is also the convex hull of the compound of 120 disjoint regular 5-cells. That stellated compound (without its convex hull of 120-cell edges) is the [[w:Great_grand_stellated_120-cell|great grand stellated 120-cell]] illustrated above, the final regular [[W:Stellation|stellation]] of the 120-cell, and the only [[W:Schläfli-Hess polychoron|regular star 4-polytope]] to have the 120-cell for its convex hull. The edges of the great grand stellated 120-cell are &lt;math&gt;\phi^6&lt;/math&gt; as long as those of its 120-cell [[W:List of polyhedral stellations#Stellation process|stellation core]] deep inside.

The compound of 120 disjoint 5-point (5-cells) can be seen to be equivalent to the compound of 5 disjoint 120-point (600-cells), as follows. Beginning with a single 120-point (600-cell), expand each vertex into a regular 5-cell, by adding 4 new equidistant vertices, such that the 5 vertices form a regular 5-cell inscribed in the 3-sphere. The 120 5-cells are disjoint, and the 600 vertices form 5 disjoint 120-point (600-cells): a 120-cell.

== Thirty distinguished distances ==
The 30 numbers listed in the table are all-important in Euclidean geometry. A case can be made on symmetry grounds that their squares are the 30 most important numbers between 0 and 4. The 30 rows of the table are the 30 distinct [[120-cell#Geodesic rectangles|chord lengths of the unit-radius 120-cell]], the largest regular convex 4-polytope. Since the 120-cell subsumes all smaller regular polytopes, its 30 chords are the complete chord set of all the regular polytopes that can be constructed in the first four dimensions of Euclidean space, except for regular polygons of more than 15 sides.

{| class=&quot;wikitable&quot; style=&quot;white-space:nowrap;text-align:center&quot;
!rowspan=2|&lt;math&gt;c_t&lt;/math&gt;
!rowspan=2|arc
!rowspan=2|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{n}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
!rowspan=2|&lt;math&gt;\left\{p\right\}&lt;/math&gt;
!rowspan=2|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;m\left\{\frac{k}{d}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
!rowspan=2|Steinbach roots
!colspan=7|Chord lengths of the unit 120-cell
|-
!colspan=5|unit-radius length &lt;math&gt;c_t&lt;/math&gt;
!colspan=2|unit-edge length &lt;math&gt;c_t/c_1&lt;/math&gt;&lt;br&gt;in 120-cell of radius &lt;math&gt;c_8=\sqrt{2}\phi^2&lt;/math&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{1,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;15.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{30\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{30\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{4,1}-c_{2,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{7-3 \sqrt{5}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.270091&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\sqrt{2} \phi ^2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2 \phi ^4}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.072949}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{2,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;25.2{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{2}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2 \left\{15\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \left(c_{18,1}-c_{4,1}\right)&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{3-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.437016&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\sqrt{2} \phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2 \phi ^2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.190983}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi &lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.61803&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{3,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;36{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{3}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{10\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;3 \left\{\frac{10}{3}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \left(\sqrt{5}-1\right) c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \left(\sqrt{5}-1\right)&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.618034&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{\phi ^2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.381966}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2} \phi &lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2.28825&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{4,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;41.4{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{60}{7}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{c_{8,1}}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.707107&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2.61803&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{5,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;44.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{4}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2 \left\{\frac{15}{2}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3} c_{2,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{9-3 \sqrt{5}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.756934&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}}}{\phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2 \phi ^2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.572949}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3} \phi &lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2.80252&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{6,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;49.1{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{120}{17}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{5-\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{5-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.831254&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\frac{1}{\phi }}}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{\sqrt{5}}{2 \phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.690983}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\phi ^3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;3.07768&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{7,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;56.0{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{20}{3}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}-\frac{1}{\phi }} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}-\frac{2}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.93913&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{\frac{\psi }{\phi }}}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{\psi }{2 \phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.881966}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\psi  \phi ^3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;3.47709&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;60{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{5}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{6\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{6\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;3.70246&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{9,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;66.1{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{40}{7}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}-\frac{1}{2 \phi }} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}-\frac{1}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.09132&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{\frac{\chi }{\phi }}}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{\chi }{2 \phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.19098}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\chi  \phi ^3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;4.04057&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{10,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;69.8{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{60}{11}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi  c_{4,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1+\sqrt{5}}{2 \sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.14412&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\phi }{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{\phi ^2}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.30902}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^3&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;4.23607&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{11,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;72{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{6}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{5\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{5\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\frac{1}{\phi }} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\frac{2}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.17557&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3-\phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3-\phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.38197}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2} \sqrt{3-\phi } \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;4.3525&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{12,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;75.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{24}{5}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.22474&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;4.53457&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{13,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;81.1{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{60}{13}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{9-\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{9-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.30038&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{9-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{4} \left(9-\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.69098}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2} \left(9-\sqrt{5}\right)} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;4.8146&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{14,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;84.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{40}{9}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\phi } c_{8,1}}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{1+\sqrt{5}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.345&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\phi }}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{\sqrt{5} \phi }{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.80902}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\phi ^5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;4.9798&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{15,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;90.0{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{7}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{4\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{4\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2 c_{4,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.41421&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2 \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;5.23607&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{16,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;95.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{120}{29}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{11-\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{11-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.4802&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{11-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{4} \left(11-\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.19098}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2} \left(11-\sqrt{5}\right)} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;5.48037&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{17,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;98.9{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{120}{31}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{7+\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{7+\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.51954&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{7+\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{4} \left(7+\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.30902}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\psi  \phi ^5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;5.62605&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{18,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;104.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{8}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{15}{4}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.58114&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{5} \sqrt{\phi ^4}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;5.8541&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{19,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;108.0{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{9}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{10}{3}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{3,1}+c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \left(1+\sqrt{5}\right)&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.61803&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi &lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1+\phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.61803}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2} \phi ^3&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;5.9907&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{20,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;110.2{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{120}{7}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{13-\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{13-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.64042&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{13-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{4} \left(13-\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.69098}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2 \sqrt{8-\phi ^2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.07359&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{21,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;113.9{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{60}{19}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}+\frac{1}{1+\sqrt{5}}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}+\frac{1}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.67601&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}+\frac{1}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}+\frac{1}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.80902}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2 \sqrt{8-\frac{\chi }{\phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.20537&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{22,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;120{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{10}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{3\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{3\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.73205&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{6} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.41285&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{23,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;124.0{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{120}{41}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{\phi }+\frac{5}{2}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}+\frac{2}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.7658&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{4-\frac{\psi }{2 \phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{4-\frac{\psi }{2 \phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.11803}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\chi  \phi ^5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.53779&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{24,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;130.9{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{20}{7}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{11+\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{11+\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.81907&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{11+\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{4} \left(11+\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.30902}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2 \sqrt{8-\frac{\sqrt{5}}{\phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.73503&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{25,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;135.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{11}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{11}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{7+3 \sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{7+3 \sqrt{5}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.85123&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\phi ^2}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{\phi ^4}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.42705}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^4&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.8541&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{26,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;138.6{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{12}{5}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{7}{2}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{7}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.87083&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{7}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{7}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{7} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.92667&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{27,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;144{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{12}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{5}{2}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2} \left(5+\sqrt{5}\right)} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2} \left(5+\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.90211&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\phi +2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2+\phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.61803}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2 \sqrt{2 \phi +4}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;7.0425&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{28,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;154.8{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{13}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{13}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{13+\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{13+\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.95167&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{13+\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{4} \left(13+\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.80902}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2 \sqrt{8-\frac{1}{\phi ^2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;7.22598&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{29,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;164.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{14}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{15}{7}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi  c_{12,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{\frac{3}{2}} \left(1+\sqrt{5}\right)&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.98168&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}} \phi &lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3 \phi ^2}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.92705}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3} \phi ^3&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;7.33708&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{30,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;180{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{15}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{2\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{2\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2 c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2.&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{4}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{4.}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2 \sqrt{2} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;7.40492&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|rowspan=4 colspan=6|
|rowspan=4 colspan=4|
&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; is the golden ratio:&lt;br&gt;
&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2-\phi -1=0&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;&lt;br&gt;
&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\phi }+1=\phi&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;, and: &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi+1=\phi^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;&lt;br&gt;
&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\phi }::1::\phi ::\phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;&lt;br&gt;
&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1/\phi&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; and &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; are the golden sections of &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;:&lt;br&gt;
&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi +\frac{1}{\phi }=\sqrt{5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|colspan=2|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi = (\sqrt{5} + 1)/2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.618034&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|colspan=2|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\chi = (3\sqrt{5} + 1)/2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;3.854102&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|colspan=2|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\psi = (3\sqrt{5} - 1)/2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2.854102&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|colspan=2|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\psi = 11/\chi = 22/(3\sqrt{5} + 1)&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2.854102&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|}

...

== The 8-point regular polytopes ==
In 2-space we have the regular 8-point octagon, in 3-space the regular 8-point cube, and in 4-space the regular 8-point [[W:16-cell|16-cell]].

A planar octagon with rigid edges of unit length has chords of length:

:&lt;math&gt;r_1=1,r_2=\sqrt{2+\sqrt{2}} \approx 1.84776,r_3=1+\sqrt{2} \approx 2.41421,r_4=\sqrt{4 + \sqrt{8}} \approx 2.61313&lt;/math&gt;

The chord ratio &lt;math&gt;r_3=1+\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt; is a geometrical proportion, the [[W:Silver ratio|silver ratio]]. Fontaine and Hurley's procedure for obtaining the reciprocal of a chord tells us that:

:&lt;math&gt;r_3-r_1-r_1=1/r_3 \approx 0.41421&lt;/math&gt;

Notice that &lt;math&gt;1/r_3=\sqrt{2}-1=r_3-2&lt;/math&gt;.

If we embed this planar octagon in 3-space, we can make it skew, repositioning its vertices so that each is one unit-edge length distant from three others instead of two others, so we obtain a unit-edge cube with chords of length:

:&lt;math&gt;r_1=1, r_2=\sqrt{2}, r_3=\sqrt{3}, r_4=\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;

If we embed this cube in 4-space, we can skew it some more, repositioning its vertices so that each is one unit-edge length distant from six others instead of three others, so we obtain a unit-edge 4-polytope with chords of length:

:&lt;math&gt;r_1=1,r_2=1,r_3=1,r_4=\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;

All of its chords except its long diameters are the same unit length as its edge. In fact they are its 24 edges, and it is a 16-cell of radius &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1/\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;.

[[File:octagon16cell.png|thumb|A &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\mathrm{B_4}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; orthogonal projection of a regular 16-cell. Only its edges are shown; its long diameter chords are not drawn. All of the 24 edges are the same length. Only the edges of two completely orthogonal squares lie parallel to the view plane.]]

The [[16-cell]] is the [[W:Regular convex 4-polytope|regular convex 4-polytope]] with [[W:Schläfli symbol|Schläfli symbol]] {3,3,4}. It has 8 vertices, 24 edges, 32 equilateral triangle faces, and 16 regular tetrahedron cells. It is the [[16-cell#Octahedral dipyramid|four-dimensional analogue of the octahedron]], and each of its four orthogonal central hyperplanes is an octahedron.

The only planar regular polygons found in the 16-cell are face triangles and central plane squares, but the 16-cell also contains a regular skew octagon, its [[W:Petrie polygon|Petrie polygon]]. The chords of this regular octagon, which lies skew in 4-space, are those given above for the 16-cell, as opposed to those for the cube or the regular octagon in the plane. The 16-cell has 3 such Petrie octagons, which share the same 8 vertices but have disjoint sets of 8 edges each.

The regular octad has higher symmetry in 4-space than it does in 2-space. The 16-cell is the 4-orthoplex, the simplest regular 4-polytope after the [[5-cell|4-simplex]]. All the larger regular 4-polytopes, including the 120-cell, are compounds of the 16-cell. The regular octagon exhibits this high symmetry only when embedded in 4-space at the vertices of the 16-cell.

The 16-cell constitutes an [[W:Orthonormal basis|orthonormal basis]] for the choice of a 4-dimensional Cartesian reference frame, because its vertices define four orthogonal axes. The eight vertices of a unit-radius 16-cell are (±1, 0, 0, 0), (0, ±1, 0, 0), (0, 0, ±1, 0), (0, 0, 0, ±1). All vertices are connected by &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; edges except opposite pairs. In this convenient unit-radius 4-coordinate system, the original planar octagon we started with had chords of length:

:&lt;math&gt;r_1=\sqrt{2},r_2=\sqrt{2(2+\sqrt{2})} \approx 2.61313,r_3=2+\sqrt{2} \approx 3.41421,r_4=2 \sqrt{2+\sqrt{2}} \approx 3.69552&lt;/math&gt;

none of which chords occur in a 16-cell or 120-cell except &lt;math&gt;r_1=\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;. 

In the unit-radius 120-cell, the great square edge chord &lt;math&gt;c_{15} = \sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt; occurs in 675 distinct (75 disjoint) 16-cells. The vertex coordinates of each 16-cell form 6 central squares lying in 6 pairwise [[W:Orthogonal|orthogonal]] coordinate planes. Great squares in ''opposite'' planes that do not share an axis (e.g. in the ''xy'' and ''wz'' planes) are completely disjoint (they do not intersect at any vertices). These planes are [[W:Completely orthogonal|completely orthogonal]].{{Efn|name=Six orthogonal planes of the Cartesian basis}}

[[W:Rotations in 4-dimensional Euclidean space|Rotations in 4-dimensional Euclidean space]] can be seen as the composition of two 2-dimensional rotations in completely orthogonal planes. The general rotation in 4-space is a double rotation in pairs of completely orthogonal planes. Two completely orthogonal planes are called invariant planes of the rotation when all points in the plane rotate on circles that remain in the plane, even as the whole plane tilts sideways (like a coin flipping) into another plane. The two completely orthogonal rotations of each plane (like a wheel, and like a coin flipping) are simultaneous but independent, in that they are not geometrically constrained to turn at the same rate. However, the most circular kind of rotation (as opposed to an elliptical double rotation of a rigid spherical object) occurs when the invariant planes do rotate through the same angle in the same time interval. Such equi-angled double rotations are called [[w:SO(4)#Isoclinic_rotations|isoclinic]], also [[w:William_Kingdon_Clifford|Clifford]] displacements.

The 16-cell is the simplest possible frame in which to [[16-cell#Rotations|observe 4-dimensional rotations]] because its characteristic isoclinic rotations feature a single pair of invariant rotation planes. In the 16-cell an isoclinic rotation by 90° in any pair of invariant completely orthogonal square central planes takes every square central plane to its completely orthogonal square central plane, and takes every vertex to its antipodal vertex 180° degrees away. All the vertices move at once, displaced 180° in 8 orthogonal directions, and the rigid 16-cell assumes a new orientation in 4-space. The trajectory of each vertex is a one-eighth segment of its [[W:Geodesic|geodesic]] orbit. Its entire orbit traces a circular helix in 4-space, and also traces a great circle in one of the two completely orthogonal invariant rotation planes, as they tilt sideways into each other's plane. When the isoclinic rotation is continued in the same rotational direction through an additional 90°, each vertex is again displaced 180° to its antipodal position, but from the new orientation where the vertex is on the opposite side of the 16-cell departing in the opposite direction. In the course of a 720° isoclinic rotation each vertex departs from all 8 vertex positions just once, and returns to its original position.

== Hypercubes ==
The long diameter of the unit-edge [[W:Hypercube|hypercube]] of dimension &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;n&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; is &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{n}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;, so the unit-edge [[w:Tesseract|4-hypercube, the 16-point (8-cell) tesseract,]] has chords:
:&lt;math&gt;r_1=\sqrt{1},r_2=\sqrt{2},r_3=\sqrt{3},r_4=\sqrt{4}&lt;/math&gt;
Uniquely in its 4-dimensional case, the hypercube's edge length equals its radius, like the hexagon. We call such polytopes ''radially equilateral'', because they can be constructed from equilateral triangles which meet at their center, each contributing two radii and an edge. The cuboctahedron and the 24-cell are also radially equilateral.

The [[W:Tesseract|tesseract]] is the [[W:Regular convex 4-polytope|regular convex 4-polytope]] with [[W:Schläfli symbol|Schläfli symbol]] {4,3,3}. It has 16 vertices, 32 edges, 24 square faces, and 8 cube cells. It is the four-dimensional analogue of the cube.

The tesseract is the [[W:Dual polytope|dual polytope]] of the 16-cell. They have the same Petrie polygon, the regular octagon, but the tesseract contains 2 disjoint instances and 4 distinct instances of the skew octagon. We can construct the tesseract the way we constructed the 16-cell, by skewing a planar octagon's edges so they become edges of the 4-polytope. Because the tesseract has 16 vertices we will need two planar octagons, and to start we must embedded them in 4-space as completely orthogonal planes that intersect at only one point, their common center. Because the tesseract is radially equilateral (unlike the 16-cell), to build a unit-radius tesseract we start with our original octagon of unit-edge length, rather than the octagon of edge length &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; that we needed to build the unit-radius 16-cell.

For our tesseract construction we skew each planar octagon into a cube, so we have a compound of two completely orthogonal cubes. Provided the planes were completely orthogonal in 4-space and we skewed them both the same way, the 16 vertices will be the vertices of a tesseract with half of its 32 edges missing.

The 16-point tesseract is the convex hull of a compound of two 8-point 16-cells, in exact dimensional analogy to the way the 8-point cube is the convex hull of a [[W:Stellated octahedron|compound of two regular 4-point tetrahedra]]. The [[W:Demihypercube|demihypercubes]] occupy alternate vertices of the hypercubes. The diagonals of the square faces of the unit-radius tesseract are the &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; edges of two unit-radius 16-cells, which are also the edges of the square central planes.

Because the tesseract contains two 16-cells in alternate positions it has two sets of 6 orthogonal square central planes. Two angles are required to specify the relationship between two planes in 4-space. Pairs of planes within each 16-cell are 90° apart in one angle, and either 0° or 90° apart in the other angle. They are 90° apart in both angles if and only if they are completely orthogonal planes, 90° apart by isoclinic rotation, with no vertices in common and their corresponding vertices 180° apart. Otherwise they are 0° apart in one of the angles, 90° apart by simple rotation with their corresponding vertices 90° apart, and they intersect in one axis and lie in a common 3-dimensional hyperplane.{{Efn|A double rotation in which one of the two angles of rotation is 0°, so that one of the completely orthogonal invariant planes does not rotate, is called a simple rotation. Ordinary rotations observed in a 3-dimensional space are simple rotations.}}

A pair of square central planes from alternate 16-cells are 60° apart by isoclinic rotation, with their corresponding vertices 120° apart. The planes are not orthogonal or parallel, so they intersect in a line somewhere, but they have no vertices in common, they have no 3-dimensional hyperplane in common, and they cannot reach each other by simple rotation. Such pairs of objects are called [[W:Clifford parallel|Clifford parallel]] because all their corresponding pairs of vertices are the same distance apart, although they are not parallel in the usual sense, because they have a common center. Not only the alternate 16-cells' corresponding square central planes, but also the 16-cells themselves, are Clifford parallel objects.

We can rotate the tesseract isoclinically the way we rotated the 16-cell, by 90° in two completely orthogonal invariant square central planes, with the same effect on both alternate 16-cells. In the course of a 720° isoclinic rotation in invariant square central planes each vertex departs from all 8 vertex positions of its 16-cell just once and returns to its original position, but it does not visit the vertex positions of the other 16-cell. The skew octagon geodesic orbits of the 16 vertices are disjoint circular helixes, and those 16 circular helixes are Clifford parallel objects.

== The 24-cell ==
In 2-space we have the radially equilateral 6-point hexagon. In 3-space we have the radially equilateral 12-point cuboctahedron, with 4 hexagonal central planes. In 4-space we have the radially equilateral 24-point 24-cell, with 4 cuboctahedral central hyperplanes and 16 hexagonal central planes.

Great hexagons are a rounder choice than great squares for the invariant rotation planes in which to rotate a 4-polytope isoclinically. The complete hexagonal isoclinic revolution requires 720° like the complete square isoclinic revolution, but it is completed in 6 chordal steps of 120° each rather than 8 chordal steps of 180° each.

...

== The 600-cell ==

...

== Finally the 120-cell ==

...

== Conclusions ==

Fontaine and Hurley's discovery is more than a formula for the reciprocal of a regular ''n''-polygon diagonal. It also yields the discrete sequence of isocline chords of the distinct isoclinic rotation characteristic of a ''d''-dimensional regular polytope. The characteristic rotational chord sequence of the ''d''-polytope can be represented geometrically in two dimensions on a distinct star polygon, but it lies on a geodesic circle through ''d''-dimensional space. Fontaine and Hurley discovered the geodesic topology of polytopes generally. Their procedure will reveal the geodesics of arbitrary non-uniform polytopes, since it can be applied to a polytope of any dimensionality and irregularity, by first fitting the polytope to the smallest regular polygon whose chords include its chords.

Fontaine and Hurley's discovery of a chordal formula for isoclinic rotations closes the circuit on Kappraff and Adamson's discovery of a rotational connection between dynamical systems, Steinbach's golden fields, and Coxeter's Euclidean geometry of ''n'' dimensions. Application of the Fontaine and Hurley procedure in higher-dimensional spaces demonstrates why the connection exists: because polytope sequences generally, from Steinbach's golden polygon chord sequences, to chord sequences in isoclinic rotation helixes, to subsumption relations in the sequence of regular 4-polytopes, arise as expressions of the reflections and rotations of distinct Coxeter symmetry groups, when those various groups interact.

== Appendix: Sequence of regular 4-polytopes ==
{{Regular convex 4-polytopes|wiki=W:|columns=7}}

== Notes ==
{{Notelist}}

== Citations ==
{{Reflist}}

== References ==
{{Refbegin}}
* {{Cite journal | last=Steinbach | first=Peter | year=1997 | title=Golden fields: A case for the Heptagon | journal=Mathematics Magazine | volume=70 | issue=Feb 1997 | pages=22–31 | doi=10.1080/0025570X.1997.11996494 | jstor=2691048 | ref={{SfnRef|Steinbach|1997}} }}
* {{Cite journal | last=Steinbach | first=Peter | year=2000 | title=Sections Beyond Golden| journal=Bridges: Mathematical Connections in Art, Music and Science | issue=2000 | pages=35-44 | url=https://archive.bridgesmathart.org/2000/bridges2000-35.pdf | ref={{SfnRef|Steinbach|2000}}}}
* {{Cite journal | last1=Kappraff | first1=Jay | last2=Jablan | first2=Slavik | last3=Adamson | first3=Gary | last4=Sazdanovich | first4=Radmila | year=2004 | title=Golden Fields, Generalized Fibonacci Sequences, and Chaotic Matrices | journal=Forma | volume=19 | pages=367-387 | url=https://archive.bridgesmathart.org/2005/bridges2005-369.pdf | ref={{SfnRef|Kappraff, Jablan, Adamson &amp; Sazdanovich|2004}} }}
* {{Cite journal | last1=Kappraff | first1=Jay | last2=Adamson | first2=Gary | year=2004 | title=Polygons and Chaos | journal=Dynamical Systems and Geometric Theories | url=https://archive.bridgesmathart.org/2001/bridges2001-67.pdf | ref={{SfnRef|Kappraff &amp; Adamson|2004}} }}
* {{Cite journal | last1=Fontaine | first1=Anne | last2=Hurley | first2=Susan | year=2006 | title=Proof by Picture: Products and Reciprocals of Diagonal Length Ratios in the Regular Polygon | journal=Forum Geometricorum | volume=6 | pages=97-101 | url=https://scispace.com/pdf/proof-by-picture-products-and-reciprocals-of-diagonal-length-1aian8mgp9.pdf }}
{{Refend}}</text>
      <sha1>59wsj75favxid8tauy6hn0tevsspoxr</sha1>
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    <revision>
      <id>2808078</id>
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        <username>Dc.samizdat</username>
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      <text bytes="45776" sha1="4t3ll403e39egm8ciu4xl73hq4esnk2" xml:space="preserve">{{align|center|David Brooks Christie}}
{{align|center|dc@samizdat.org}}
{{align|center|Draft in progress}}
{{align|center|January 2026 - April 2026}}

&lt;blockquote&gt;Steinbach discovered the formula for the ratios of diagonal to side in the regular polygons. Fontaine and Hurley extended this result, discovering a formula for the reciprocal of a regular polygon chord derived geometrically from the chord's star polygon. We observe that these findings in plane geometry apply more generally, to polytopes of any dimensionality. Fontaine and Hurley's geometric procedure for finding the reciprocals of the chords of a regular polygon from their star polygons also finds the rotational geodesics of any polytope of any dimensionality.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
== Introduction ==
Steinbach discovered the Diagonal Product Formula and the Golden Fields family of ratios of diagonal to side in the regular polygons. He showed how this family extends beyond the pentagon {5} with its well-known golden bisection proportional to 𝜙, finding that the heptagon {7} has an analogous trisection, the nonagon {9} has an analogous quadrasection, and the hendecagon {11} has an analogous pentasection, an extended family of golden proportions with quasiperiodic properties. 

Kappraff and Adamson extended these findings in plane geometry to a theory of Generalized Fibonacci Sequences, showing that the Golden Fields not only do not end with the hendecagon, they form an infinite number of periodic trajectories when operated on by the Mandelbrot operator. They found a relation between the edges of star polygons and dynamical systems in the state of chaos, revealing a connection between chaos theory, number, and rotations in Coxeter Euclidean geometry. 

Fontaine and Hurley examined Steinbach's finding that the length of each chord of a regular polygon is both the product of two chords and the sum of a set of smaller chords, so that in rotations to add is to multiply. They illustrated Steinbach's sets of additive chords lying parallel to each other in the plane (pointing in the same direction), and by applying Steinbach's formula more generally they found another summation relation of signed parallel chords (pointing in opposite directions) which relates each chord length to its reciprocal, and relates the summation to a distinct star polygon rotation. 

We examine these remarkable findings (which stem from study of the chords of humble regular polygons) in higher-dimensional spaces, specifically in the chords, polygons and rotations of the [[120-cell]], the largest four-dimensional regular convex polytope.

== Visualizing the 120-cell ==
{| class=&quot;wikitable floatright&quot; width=&quot;400&quot;
|style=&quot;vertical-align:top&quot;|[[File:120-cell.gif|200px]]&lt;br&gt;Orthographic projection of the 600-point 120-cell &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\{5,3,3\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; performing a [[W:SO(4)#Geometry of 4D rotations|simple rotation]].{{Sfn|Hise|2011|loc=File:120-cell.gif|ps=; &quot;Created by Jason Hise with Maya and Macromedia Fireworks. A 3D projection of a 120-cell performing a [[W:SO(4)#Geometry of 4D rotations|simple rotation]].&quot;}} In this simplified rendering only the 120-cell's own edges are shown; its 29 interior chords are not rendered. Therefore even though it is translucent, only its outer surface is visible. The complex interior parts of the 120-cell, all its inscribed 5-cells, 16-cells, 8-cells, 24-cells, 600-cells and its much larger inventory of polyhedra, are completely invisible in this view, as none of their edges are rendered at all.
|style=&quot;vertical-align:top&quot;|[[File:Ortho solid 016-uniform polychoron p33-t0.png|200px]]&lt;br&gt;Orthographic projection of the 600-point [[W:Great grand stellated 120-cell|great grand stellated 120-cell]] &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\{\tfrac{5}{2},3,3\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;.{{Sfn|Ruen: Great grand stellated 120-cell|2007}} The 120-cell is its convex hull. The projection to the left renders only the 120-cell's shortest chord, its 1200 edges. The projection above also renders only one of the 120-cell's 30 chords, the edges of its 120 inscribed regular 5-cells. The 120-cell itself (the convex hull) is invisible in this view, as its edges are not rendered.
|}

[[120-cell#Geometry|The 120-cell is the maximally complex regular 4-polytope]], containing inscribed instances of every regular 1-, 2-, 3-, and 4-polytope, except the regular polygons of more than {15} sides. 

The 120-cell is the convex hull of a regular [[120-cell#Relationships among interior polytopes|compound of each of the 6 regular convex 4-polytopes]]. They are the [[5-cell|5-point (5-cell) 4-simplex]], the [[16-cell|8-point (16-cell) 4-orthoplex]], the [[W:Tesseract|16-point (8-cell) tesseract]], the [[24-cell|24-point (24-cell)]], the [[600-cell|120-point (600-cell)]], and the [[120-cell|600-point (120-cell)]]. The 120-cell is the convex hull of a compound of 120 disjoint regular 5-cells, of 75 disjoint 16-cells, of 25 disjoint 24-cells, and of 5 disjoint 600-cells.

The 120-cell contains an even larger inventory of irregular polytopes, created by the intersection of multiple instances of these component regular 4-polytopes. Many are quite unexpected, because they do not occur as components of any regular polytope smaller than the 120-cell. As just one example among the [[120-cell#Concentric hulls|sections of the 120-cell]], there is an irregular 24-point polyhedron with 16 triangle faces and 4 nonagon {9} faces.{{Sfn|Moxness|}}

Most renderings of the 120-cell, like the rotating projection here, only illustrate its outer surface, which is a honeycomb of face-bonded dodecahedral cells. Only the objects in its 3-dimensional surface are rendered, namely the 120 dodecahedra, their pentagon faces, and their edges. Although the 120-cell has chords of 30 distinct lengths, in this kind of simplified rendering only the 120-cell's own edges (its shortest chord) are shown. Its 29 interior chords, the edges of objects in the interior of the 120-cell, are not rendered, so interior objects are not visible at all.

Visualizing the complete interior of the 600-vertex 120-cell in a single image is impractical because of its complexity. Only four 120-cell edges are incident at each vertex, but [[120-cell#Chords|600 chords (of all 30 lengths)]] are incident at ''each'' vertex.

== Compounds in the 120-cell ==
The 8-point (16-cell), not the 5-point (5-cell), is the smallest building block; it compounds to every larger regular 4-polytope. The 5-point (5-cell) does compound to the 600-point (120-cell), but it does not fit into any smaller regular 4-polytope. 

The 8-point (16-cell) compounds by 2 in the 16-point (8-cell), and by 3 in the 24-point (24-cell). The 16-point (8-cell) compounds in the 24-point (24-cell) by 3 non-disjoint instances of itself, with each of the 24 vertices shared by two 16-point (8-cells). The 24-point (24-cell) compounds by 5 disjoint instances of itself in the 120-point (600-cell), and the 120-point (600-cell) compounds by 5 disjoint instances of itself in the 600-point (120-cell).

The 24-point (24-cell) also compounds by &lt;math&gt;5^2&lt;/math&gt; non-disjoint instances of itself in the 120-point (600-cell); it compounds in 5 disjoint instances of itself, 10 (not 5) different ways. Whichever set of 5 disjoint 24-point (24-cells) are assembled, the resulting 120-point (600-cell) contains 25 distinct 24-point (24-cells), not just 5 (or 10). This implies that 15 disjoint 8-point (16-cells) will construct a 120-point (600-cell), which will contain 75 distinct 8-point (16-cells). 

The 600-point (120-cell) is 5 disjoint 120-point (600-cells), just 2 different ways (not 5 or 10 ways), so it is 10 distinct 120-point (600-cells). This implies that the 8-point (16-cell) compounds by 3 times &lt;math&gt;5^2&lt;/math&gt; (75) disjoint instances of itself in the 600-point (120-cell), which contains &lt;math&gt;3^2&lt;/math&gt; times  &lt;math&gt;5^2&lt;/math&gt; (225) distinct instances of the 24-point (24-cell), and  &lt;math&gt;3^3&lt;/math&gt; times &lt;math&gt;5^2&lt;/math&gt; (675) distinct instances of the 8-point (16-cell). 

These facts were discovered painstakingly by various researchers, and no one has found a general rule governing subsumption relations among regular polytopes. The reasons for some of their numeric incidence relations are far from obvious. [[W:Pieter Hendrik Schoute|Schoute]] was the first to see that the 120-point (600-cell) is a compound of 5 24-point (24-cells) ''10 different ways'', and after he saw it a hundred years lapsed until Denney, Hooker, Johnson, Robinson, Butler &amp; Claiborne proved his result, and showed why.{{Sfn|Denney, Hooker, Johnson, Robinson, Butler &amp; Claiborne|2020|loc=''The geometry of H4 polytopes''}}

So much for the compounds of 16-cells. The 120-cell is also the convex hull of the compound of 120 disjoint regular 5-cells. That stellated compound (without its convex hull of 120-cell edges) is the [[w:Great_grand_stellated_120-cell|great grand stellated 120-cell]] illustrated above, the final regular [[W:Stellation|stellation]] of the 120-cell, and the only [[W:Schläfli-Hess polychoron|regular star 4-polytope]] to have the 120-cell for its convex hull. The edges of the great grand stellated 120-cell are &lt;math&gt;\phi^6&lt;/math&gt; as long as those of its 120-cell [[W:List of polyhedral stellations#Stellation process|stellation core]] deep inside.

The compound of 120 disjoint 5-point (5-cells) can be seen to be equivalent to the compound of 5 disjoint 120-point (600-cells), as follows. Beginning with a single 120-point (600-cell), expand each vertex into a regular 5-cell, by adding 4 new equidistant vertices, such that the 5 vertices form a regular 5-cell inscribed in the 3-sphere. The 120 5-cells are disjoint, and the 600 vertices form 5 disjoint 120-point (600-cells): a 120-cell.

== Thirty distinguished distances ==
The 30 numbers listed in the table are all-important in Euclidean geometry. A case can be made on symmetry grounds that their squares are the 30 most important numbers between 0 and 4. The 30 rows of the table are the 30 distinct [[120-cell#Geodesic rectangles|chord lengths of the unit-radius 120-cell]], the largest regular convex 4-polytope. Since the 120-cell subsumes all smaller regular polytopes, its 30 chords are the complete chord set of all the regular polytopes that can be constructed in the first four dimensions of Euclidean space, except for regular polygons of more than 15 sides.

{| class=&quot;wikitable&quot; style=&quot;white-space:nowrap;text-align:center&quot;
!rowspan=2|&lt;math&gt;c_t&lt;/math&gt;
!rowspan=2|arc
!rowspan=2|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{n}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
!rowspan=2|&lt;math&gt;\left\{p\right\}&lt;/math&gt;
!rowspan=2|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;m\left\{\frac{k}{d}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
!rowspan=2|Steinbach roots
!colspan=7|Chord lengths of the unit 120-cell
|-
!colspan=5|unit-radius length &lt;math&gt;c_t&lt;/math&gt;
!colspan=2|unit-edge length &lt;math&gt;c_t/c_1&lt;/math&gt;&lt;br&gt;in 120-cell of radius &lt;math&gt;c_8=\sqrt{2}\phi^2&lt;/math&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{1,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;15.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{30\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{30\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{4,1}-c_{2,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{7-3 \sqrt{5}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.270091&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\sqrt{2} \phi ^2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2 \phi ^4}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.072949}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{2,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;25.2{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{2}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2 \left\{15\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \left(c_{18,1}-c_{4,1}\right)&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{3-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.437016&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\sqrt{2} \phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2 \phi ^2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.190983}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi &lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.61803&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{3,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;36{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{3}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{10\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;3 \left\{\frac{10}{3}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \left(\sqrt{5}-1\right) c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \left(\sqrt{5}-1\right)&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.618034&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{\phi ^2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.381966}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2} \phi &lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2.28825&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{4,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;41.4{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{60}{7}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{c_{8,1}}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.707107&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2.61803&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{5,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;44.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{4}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2 \left\{\frac{15}{2}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3} c_{2,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{9-3 \sqrt{5}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.756934&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}}}{\phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2 \phi ^2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.572949}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3} \phi &lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2.80252&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{6,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;49.1{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{120}{17}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{5-\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{5-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.831254&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\frac{1}{\phi }}}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{\sqrt{5}}{2 \phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.690983}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\phi ^3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;3.07768&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{7,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;56.0{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{20}{3}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}-\frac{1}{\phi }} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}-\frac{2}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.93913&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{\frac{\psi }{\phi }}}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{\psi }{2 \phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.881966}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\psi  \phi ^3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;3.47709&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;60{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{5}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{6\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{6\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;3.70246&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{9,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;66.1{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{40}{7}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}-\frac{1}{2 \phi }} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}-\frac{1}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.09132&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{\frac{\chi }{\phi }}}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{\chi }{2 \phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.19098}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\chi  \phi ^3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;4.04057&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{10,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;69.8{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{60}{11}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi  c_{4,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1+\sqrt{5}}{2 \sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.14412&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\phi }{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{\phi ^2}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.30902}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^3&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;4.23607&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{11,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;72{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{6}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{5\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{5\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\frac{1}{\phi }} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\frac{2}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.17557&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3-\phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3-\phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.38197}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2} \sqrt{3-\phi } \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;4.3525&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{12,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;75.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{24}{5}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.22474&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;4.53457&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{13,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;81.1{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{60}{13}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{9-\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{9-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.30038&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{9-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{4} \left(9-\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.69098}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2} \left(9-\sqrt{5}\right)} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;4.8146&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{14,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;84.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{40}{9}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\phi } c_{8,1}}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{1+\sqrt{5}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.345&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\phi }}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{\sqrt{5} \phi }{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.80902}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\phi ^5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;4.9798&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{15,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;90.0{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{7}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{4\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{4\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2 c_{4,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.41421&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2 \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;5.23607&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{16,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;95.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{120}{29}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{11-\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{11-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.4802&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{11-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{4} \left(11-\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.19098}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2} \left(11-\sqrt{5}\right)} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;5.48037&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{17,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;98.9{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{120}{31}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{7+\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{7+\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.51954&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{7+\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{4} \left(7+\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.30902}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\psi  \phi ^5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;5.62605&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{18,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;104.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{8}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{15}{4}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.58114&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{5} \sqrt{\phi ^4}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;5.8541&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{19,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;108.0{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{9}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{10}{3}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{3,1}+c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \left(1+\sqrt{5}\right)&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.61803&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi &lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1+\phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.61803}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2} \phi ^3&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;5.9907&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{20,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;110.2{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{120}{7}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{13-\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{13-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.64042&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{13-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{4} \left(13-\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.69098}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2 \sqrt{8-\phi ^2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.07359&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{21,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;113.9{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{60}{19}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}+\frac{1}{1+\sqrt{5}}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}+\frac{1}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.67601&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}+\frac{1}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}+\frac{1}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.80902}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2 \sqrt{8-\frac{\chi }{\phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.20537&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{22,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;120{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{10}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{3\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{3\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.73205&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{6} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.41285&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{23,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;124.0{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{120}{41}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{\phi }+\frac{5}{2}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}+\frac{2}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.7658&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{4-\frac{\psi }{2 \phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{4-\frac{\psi }{2 \phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.11803}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\chi  \phi ^5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.53779&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{24,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;130.9{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{20}{7}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{11+\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{11+\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.81907&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{11+\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{4} \left(11+\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.30902}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2 \sqrt{8-\frac{\sqrt{5}}{\phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.73503&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{25,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;135.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{11}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{11}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{7+3 \sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{7+3 \sqrt{5}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.85123&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\phi ^2}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{\phi ^4}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.42705}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^4&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.8541&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{26,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;138.6{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{12}{5}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{7}{2}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{7}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.87083&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{7}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{7}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{7} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.92667&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{27,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;144{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{12}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{5}{2}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2} \left(5+\sqrt{5}\right)} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2} \left(5+\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.90211&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\phi +2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2+\phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.61803}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2 \sqrt{2 \phi +4}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;7.0425&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{28,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;154.8{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{13}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{13}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{13+\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{13+\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.95167&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{13+\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{4} \left(13+\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.80902}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2 \sqrt{8-\frac{1}{\phi ^2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;7.22598&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{29,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;164.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{14}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{15}{7}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi  c_{12,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{\frac{3}{2}} \left(1+\sqrt{5}\right)&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.98168&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}} \phi &lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3 \phi ^2}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.92705}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3} \phi ^3&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;7.33708&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{30,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;180{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{15}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{2\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{2\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2 c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2.&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{4}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{4.}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2 \sqrt{2} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;7.40492&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|rowspan=4 colspan=6|
|rowspan=4 colspan=4|
&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; is the golden ratio:&lt;br&gt;
&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2-\phi -1=0&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;&lt;br&gt;
&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\phi }+1=\phi&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;, and: &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi+1=\phi^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;&lt;br&gt;
&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\phi }::1::\phi ::\phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;&lt;br&gt;
&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1/\phi&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; and &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; are the golden sections of &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;:&lt;br&gt;
&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi +\frac{1}{\phi }=\sqrt{5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|colspan=2|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi = (\sqrt{5} + 1)/2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.618034&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|colspan=2|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\chi = (3\sqrt{5} + 1)/2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;3.854102&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|colspan=2|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\psi = (3\sqrt{5} - 1)/2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2.854102&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|colspan=2|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\psi = 11/\chi = 22/(3\sqrt{5} + 1)&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2.854102&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|}

...

== The 8-point regular polytopes ==
In 2-space we have the regular 8-point octagon, in 3-space the regular 8-point cube, and in 4-space the regular 8-point [[W:16-cell|16-cell]].

A planar octagon with rigid edges of unit length has chords of length:

:&lt;math&gt;r_1=1,r_2=\sqrt{2+\sqrt{2}} \approx 1.84776,r_3=1+\sqrt{2} \approx 2.41421,r_4=\sqrt{4 + \sqrt{8}} \approx 2.61313&lt;/math&gt;

The chord ratio &lt;math&gt;r_3=1+\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt; is a geometrical proportion, the [[W:Silver ratio|silver ratio]]. Fontaine and Hurley's procedure for obtaining the reciprocal of a chord tells us that:

:&lt;math&gt;r_3-r_1-r_1=1/r_3 \approx 0.41421&lt;/math&gt;

Notice that &lt;math&gt;1/r_3=\sqrt{2}-1=r_3-2&lt;/math&gt;.

If we embed this planar octagon in 3-space, we can make it skew, repositioning its vertices so that each is one unit-edge length distant from three others instead of two others, so we obtain a unit-edge cube with chords of length:

:&lt;math&gt;r_1=1, r_2=\sqrt{2}, r_3=\sqrt{3}, r_4=\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;

If we embed this cube in 4-space, we can skew it some more, repositioning its vertices so that each is one unit-edge length distant from six others instead of three others, so we obtain a unit-edge 4-polytope with chords of length:

:&lt;math&gt;r_1=1,r_2=1,r_3=1,r_4=\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;

All of its chords except its long diameters are the same unit length as its edge. In fact they are its 24 edges, and it is a 16-cell of radius &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1/\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;.

[[File:octagon16cell.png|thumb|'''B&lt;sub&gt;4&lt;/sub&gt;''' orthogonal projection of a regular 16-cell. Only its edges are shown; its long diameter chords are not drawn. All of the 24 edges are the same length. Only the edges of two completely orthogonal squares lie parallel to the view plane.]]

The [[16-cell]] is the [[W:Regular convex 4-polytope|regular convex 4-polytope]] with [[W:Schläfli symbol|Schläfli symbol]] {3,3,4}. It has 8 vertices, 24 edges, 32 equilateral triangle faces, and 16 regular tetrahedron cells. It is the [[16-cell#Octahedral dipyramid|four-dimensional analogue of the octahedron]], and each of its four orthogonal central hyperplanes is an octahedron.

The only planar regular polygons found in the 16-cell are face triangles and central plane squares, but the 16-cell also contains a regular skew octagon, its [[W:Petrie polygon|Petrie polygon]]. The chords of this regular octagon, which lies skew in 4-space, are those given above for the 16-cell, as opposed to those for the cube or the regular octagon in the plane. The 16-cell has 3 such Petrie octagons, which share the same 8 vertices but have disjoint sets of 8 edges each.

The regular octad has higher symmetry in 4-space than it does in 2-space. The 16-cell is the 4-orthoplex, the simplest regular 4-polytope after the [[5-cell|4-simplex]]. All the larger regular 4-polytopes, including the 120-cell, are compounds of the 16-cell. The regular octagon exhibits this high symmetry only when embedded in 4-space at the vertices of the 16-cell.

The 16-cell constitutes an [[W:Orthonormal basis|orthonormal basis]] for the choice of a 4-dimensional Cartesian reference frame, because its vertices define four orthogonal axes. The eight vertices of a unit-radius 16-cell are (±1, 0, 0, 0), (0, ±1, 0, 0), (0, 0, ±1, 0), (0, 0, 0, ±1). All vertices are connected by &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; edges except opposite pairs. In this convenient unit-radius 4-coordinate system, the original planar octagon we started with had chords of length:

:&lt;math&gt;r_1=\sqrt{2},r_2=\sqrt{2(2+\sqrt{2})} \approx 2.61313,r_3=2+\sqrt{2} \approx 3.41421,r_4=2 \sqrt{2+\sqrt{2}} \approx 3.69552&lt;/math&gt;

none of which chords occur in a 16-cell or 120-cell except &lt;math&gt;r_1=\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;. 

In the unit-radius 120-cell, the great square edge chord &lt;math&gt;c_{15} = \sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt; occurs in 675 distinct (75 disjoint) 16-cells. The vertex coordinates of each 16-cell form 6 central squares lying in 6 pairwise [[W:Orthogonal|orthogonal]] coordinate planes. Great squares in ''opposite'' planes that do not share an axis (e.g. in the ''xy'' and ''wz'' planes) are completely disjoint (they do not intersect at any vertices). These planes are [[W:Completely orthogonal|completely orthogonal]].{{Efn|name=Six orthogonal planes of the Cartesian basis}}

[[W:Rotations in 4-dimensional Euclidean space|Rotations in 4-dimensional Euclidean space]] can be seen as the composition of two 2-dimensional rotations in completely orthogonal planes. The general rotation in 4-space is a double rotation in pairs of completely orthogonal planes. Two completely orthogonal planes are called invariant planes of the rotation when all points in the plane rotate on circles that remain in the plane, even as the whole plane tilts sideways (like a coin flipping) into another plane. The two completely orthogonal rotations of each plane (like a wheel, and like a coin flipping) are simultaneous but independent, in that they are not geometrically constrained to turn at the same rate. However, the most circular kind of rotation (as opposed to an elliptical double rotation of a rigid spherical object) occurs when the invariant planes do rotate through the same angle in the same time interval. Such equi-angled double rotations are called [[w:SO(4)#Isoclinic_rotations|isoclinic]], also [[w:William_Kingdon_Clifford|Clifford]] displacements.

The 16-cell is the simplest possible frame in which to [[16-cell#Rotations|observe 4-dimensional rotations]] because its characteristic isoclinic rotations feature a single pair of invariant rotation planes. In the 16-cell an isoclinic rotation by 90° in any pair of invariant completely orthogonal square central planes takes every square central plane to its completely orthogonal square central plane, and takes every vertex to its antipodal vertex 180° degrees away. All the vertices move at once, displaced 180° in 8 orthogonal directions, and the rigid 16-cell assumes a new orientation in 4-space. The trajectory of each vertex is a one-eighth segment of its [[W:Geodesic|geodesic]] orbit. Its entire orbit traces a circular helix in 4-space, and also traces a great circle in one of the two completely orthogonal invariant rotation planes, as they tilt sideways into each other's plane. When the isoclinic rotation is continued in the same rotational direction through an additional 90°, each vertex is again displaced 180° to its antipodal position, but from the new orientation where the vertex is on the opposite side of the 16-cell departing in the opposite direction. In the course of a 720° isoclinic rotation each vertex departs from all 8 vertex positions just once, and returns to its original position.

== Hypercubes ==
The long diameter of the unit-edge [[W:Hypercube|hypercube]] of dimension &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;n&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; is &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{n}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;, so the unit-edge [[w:Tesseract|4-hypercube, the 16-point (8-cell) tesseract,]] has chords:
:&lt;math&gt;r_1=\sqrt{1},r_2=\sqrt{2},r_3=\sqrt{3},r_4=\sqrt{4}&lt;/math&gt;
Uniquely in its 4-dimensional case, the hypercube's edge length equals its radius, like the hexagon. We call such polytopes ''radially equilateral'', because they can be constructed from equilateral triangles which meet at their center, each contributing two radii and an edge. The cuboctahedron and the 24-cell are also radially equilateral.

The [[W:Tesseract|tesseract]] is the [[W:Regular convex 4-polytope|regular convex 4-polytope]] with [[W:Schläfli symbol|Schläfli symbol]] {4,3,3}. It has 16 vertices, 32 edges, 24 square faces, and 8 cube cells. It is the four-dimensional analogue of the cube.

The tesseract is the [[W:Dual polytope|dual polytope]] of the 16-cell. They have the same Petrie polygon, the regular octagon, but the tesseract contains 2 disjoint instances and 4 distinct instances of the skew octagon. We can construct the tesseract the way we constructed the 16-cell, by skewing a planar octagon's edges so they become edges of the 4-polytope. Because the tesseract has 16 vertices we will need two planar octagons, and to start we must embedded them in 4-space as completely orthogonal planes that intersect at only one point, their common center. Because the tesseract is radially equilateral (unlike the 16-cell), to build a unit-radius tesseract we start with our original octagon of unit-edge length, rather than the octagon of edge length &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; that we needed to build the unit-radius 16-cell.

For our tesseract construction we skew each planar octagon into a cube, so we have a compound of two completely orthogonal cubes. Provided the planes were completely orthogonal in 4-space and we skewed them both the same way, the 16 vertices will be the vertices of a tesseract with half of its 32 edges missing.

The 16-point tesseract is the convex hull of a compound of two 8-point 16-cells, in exact dimensional analogy to the way the 8-point cube is the convex hull of a [[W:Stellated octahedron|compound of two regular 4-point tetrahedra]]. The [[W:Demihypercube|demihypercubes]] occupy alternate vertices of the hypercubes. The diagonals of the square faces of the unit-radius tesseract are the &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; edges of two unit-radius 16-cells, which are also the edges of the square central planes.

Because the tesseract contains two 16-cells in alternate positions it has two sets of 6 orthogonal square central planes. Two angles are required to specify the relationship between two planes in 4-space. Pairs of planes within each 16-cell are 90° apart in one angle, and either 0° or 90° apart in the other angle. They are 90° apart in both angles if and only if they are completely orthogonal planes, 90° apart by isoclinic rotation, with no vertices in common and their corresponding vertices 180° apart. Otherwise they are 0° apart in one of the angles, 90° apart by simple rotation with their corresponding vertices 90° apart, and they intersect in one axis and lie in a common 3-dimensional hyperplane.{{Efn|A double rotation in which one of the two angles of rotation is 0°, so that one of the completely orthogonal invariant planes does not rotate, is called a simple rotation. Ordinary rotations observed in a 3-dimensional space are simple rotations.}}

A pair of square central planes from alternate 16-cells are 60° apart by isoclinic rotation, with their corresponding vertices 120° apart. The planes are not orthogonal or parallel, so they intersect in a line somewhere, but they have no vertices in common, they have no 3-dimensional hyperplane in common, and they cannot reach each other by simple rotation. Such pairs of objects are called [[W:Clifford parallel|Clifford parallel]] because all their corresponding pairs of vertices are the same distance apart, although they are not parallel in the usual sense, because they have a common center. Not only the alternate 16-cells' corresponding square central planes, but also the 16-cells themselves, are Clifford parallel objects.

We can rotate the tesseract isoclinically the way we rotated the 16-cell, by 90° in two completely orthogonal invariant square central planes, with the same effect on both alternate 16-cells. In the course of a 720° isoclinic rotation in invariant square central planes each vertex departs from all 8 vertex positions of its 16-cell just once and returns to its original position, but it does not visit the vertex positions of the other 16-cell. The skew octagon geodesic orbits of the 16 vertices are disjoint circular helixes, and those 16 circular helixes are Clifford parallel objects.

== The 24-cell ==
In 2-space we have the radially equilateral 6-point hexagon. In 3-space we have the radially equilateral 12-point cuboctahedron, with 4 hexagonal central planes. In 4-space we have the radially equilateral 24-point 24-cell, with 4 cuboctahedral central hyperplanes and 16 hexagonal central planes.

Great hexagons are a rounder choice than great squares for the invariant rotation planes in which to rotate a 4-polytope isoclinically. The complete hexagonal isoclinic revolution requires 720° like the complete square isoclinic revolution, but it is completed in 6 chordal steps of 120° each rather than 8 chordal steps of 180° each.

...

== The 600-cell ==

...

== Finally the 120-cell ==

...

== Conclusions ==

Fontaine and Hurley's discovery is more than a formula for the reciprocal of a regular ''n''-polygon diagonal. It also yields the discrete sequence of isocline chords of the distinct isoclinic rotation characteristic of a ''d''-dimensional regular polytope. The characteristic rotational chord sequence of the ''d''-polytope can be represented geometrically in two dimensions on a distinct star polygon, but it lies on a geodesic circle through ''d''-dimensional space. Fontaine and Hurley discovered the geodesic topology of polytopes generally. Their procedure will reveal the geodesics of arbitrary non-uniform polytopes, since it can be applied to a polytope of any dimensionality and irregularity, by first fitting the polytope to the smallest regular polygon whose chords include its chords.

Fontaine and Hurley's discovery of a chordal formula for isoclinic rotations closes the circuit on Kappraff and Adamson's discovery of a rotational connection between dynamical systems, Steinbach's golden fields, and Coxeter's Euclidean geometry of ''n'' dimensions. Application of the Fontaine and Hurley procedure in higher-dimensional spaces demonstrates why the connection exists: because polytope sequences generally, from Steinbach's golden polygon chord sequences, to chord sequences in isoclinic rotation helixes, to subsumption relations in the sequence of regular 4-polytopes, arise as expressions of the reflections and rotations of distinct Coxeter symmetry groups, when those various groups interact.

== Appendix: Sequence of regular 4-polytopes ==
{{Regular convex 4-polytopes|wiki=W:|columns=7}}

== Notes ==
{{Notelist}}

== Citations ==
{{Reflist}}

== References ==
{{Refbegin}}
* {{Cite journal | last=Steinbach | first=Peter | year=1997 | title=Golden fields: A case for the Heptagon | journal=Mathematics Magazine | volume=70 | issue=Feb 1997 | pages=22–31 | doi=10.1080/0025570X.1997.11996494 | jstor=2691048 | ref={{SfnRef|Steinbach|1997}} }}
* {{Cite journal | last=Steinbach | first=Peter | year=2000 | title=Sections Beyond Golden| journal=Bridges: Mathematical Connections in Art, Music and Science | issue=2000 | pages=35-44 | url=https://archive.bridgesmathart.org/2000/bridges2000-35.pdf | ref={{SfnRef|Steinbach|2000}}}}
* {{Cite journal | last1=Kappraff | first1=Jay | last2=Jablan | first2=Slavik | last3=Adamson | first3=Gary | last4=Sazdanovich | first4=Radmila | year=2004 | title=Golden Fields, Generalized Fibonacci Sequences, and Chaotic Matrices | journal=Forma | volume=19 | pages=367-387 | url=https://archive.bridgesmathart.org/2005/bridges2005-369.pdf | ref={{SfnRef|Kappraff, Jablan, Adamson &amp; Sazdanovich|2004}} }}
* {{Cite journal | last1=Kappraff | first1=Jay | last2=Adamson | first2=Gary | year=2004 | title=Polygons and Chaos | journal=Dynamical Systems and Geometric Theories | url=https://archive.bridgesmathart.org/2001/bridges2001-67.pdf | ref={{SfnRef|Kappraff &amp; Adamson|2004}} }}
* {{Cite journal | last1=Fontaine | first1=Anne | last2=Hurley | first2=Susan | year=2006 | title=Proof by Picture: Products and Reciprocals of Diagonal Length Ratios in the Regular Polygon | journal=Forum Geometricorum | volume=6 | pages=97-101 | url=https://scispace.com/pdf/proof-by-picture-products-and-reciprocals-of-diagonal-length-1aian8mgp9.pdf }}
{{Refend}}</text>
      <sha1>4t3ll403e39egm8ciu4xl73hq4esnk2</sha1>
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    <revision>
      <id>2808079</id>
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        <username>Dc.samizdat</username>
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      <text bytes="45770" sha1="3gtxvh31k7m2lxu2m77rqbxiwa0331d" xml:space="preserve">{{align|center|David Brooks Christie}}
{{align|center|dc@samizdat.org}}
{{align|center|Draft in progress}}
{{align|center|January 2026 - April 2026}}

&lt;blockquote&gt;Steinbach discovered the formula for the ratios of diagonal to side in the regular polygons. Fontaine and Hurley extended this result, discovering a formula for the reciprocal of a regular polygon chord derived geometrically from the chord's star polygon. We observe that these findings in plane geometry apply more generally, to polytopes of any dimensionality. Fontaine and Hurley's geometric procedure for finding the reciprocals of the chords of a regular polygon from their star polygons also finds the rotational geodesics of any polytope of any dimensionality.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
== Introduction ==
Steinbach discovered the Diagonal Product Formula and the Golden Fields family of ratios of diagonal to side in the regular polygons. He showed how this family extends beyond the pentagon {5} with its well-known golden bisection proportional to 𝜙, finding that the heptagon {7} has an analogous trisection, the nonagon {9} has an analogous quadrasection, and the hendecagon {11} has an analogous pentasection, an extended family of golden proportions with quasiperiodic properties. 

Kappraff and Adamson extended these findings in plane geometry to a theory of Generalized Fibonacci Sequences, showing that the Golden Fields not only do not end with the hendecagon, they form an infinite number of periodic trajectories when operated on by the Mandelbrot operator. They found a relation between the edges of star polygons and dynamical systems in the state of chaos, revealing a connection between chaos theory, number, and rotations in Coxeter Euclidean geometry. 

Fontaine and Hurley examined Steinbach's finding that the length of each chord of a regular polygon is both the product of two chords and the sum of a set of smaller chords, so that in rotations to add is to multiply. They illustrated Steinbach's sets of additive chords lying parallel to each other in the plane (pointing in the same direction), and by applying Steinbach's formula more generally they found another summation relation of signed parallel chords (pointing in opposite directions) which relates each chord length to its reciprocal, and relates the summation to a distinct star polygon rotation. 

We examine these remarkable findings (which stem from study of the chords of humble regular polygons) in higher-dimensional spaces, specifically in the chords, polygons and rotations of the [[120-cell]], the largest four-dimensional regular convex polytope.

== Visualizing the 120-cell ==
{| class=&quot;wikitable floatright&quot; width=&quot;400&quot;
|style=&quot;vertical-align:top&quot;|[[File:120-cell.gif|200px]]&lt;br&gt;Orthographic projection of the 600-point 120-cell &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\{5,3,3\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; performing a [[W:SO(4)#Geometry of 4D rotations|simple rotation]].{{Sfn|Hise|2011|loc=File:120-cell.gif|ps=; &quot;Created by Jason Hise with Maya and Macromedia Fireworks. A 3D projection of a 120-cell performing a [[W:SO(4)#Geometry of 4D rotations|simple rotation]].&quot;}} In this simplified rendering only the 120-cell's own edges are shown; its 29 interior chords are not rendered. Therefore even though it is translucent, only its outer surface is visible. The complex interior parts of the 120-cell, all its inscribed 5-cells, 16-cells, 8-cells, 24-cells, 600-cells and its much larger inventory of polyhedra, are completely invisible in this view, as none of their edges are rendered at all.
|style=&quot;vertical-align:top&quot;|[[File:Ortho solid 016-uniform polychoron p33-t0.png|200px]]&lt;br&gt;Orthographic projection of the 600-point [[W:Great grand stellated 120-cell|great grand stellated 120-cell]] &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\{\tfrac{5}{2},3,3\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;.{{Sfn|Ruen: Great grand stellated 120-cell|2007}} The 120-cell is its convex hull. The projection to the left renders only the 120-cell's shortest chord, its 1200 edges. The projection above also renders only one of the 120-cell's 30 chords, the edges of its 120 inscribed regular 5-cells. The 120-cell itself (the convex hull) is invisible in this view, as its edges are not rendered.
|}

[[120-cell#Geometry|The 120-cell is the maximally complex regular 4-polytope]], containing inscribed instances of every regular 1-, 2-, 3-, and 4-polytope, except the regular polygons of more than {15} sides. 

The 120-cell is the convex hull of a regular [[120-cell#Relationships among interior polytopes|compound of each of the 6 regular convex 4-polytopes]]. They are the [[5-cell|5-point (5-cell) 4-simplex]], the [[16-cell|8-point (16-cell) 4-orthoplex]], the [[W:Tesseract|16-point (8-cell) tesseract]], the [[24-cell|24-point (24-cell)]], the [[600-cell|120-point (600-cell)]], and the [[120-cell|600-point (120-cell)]]. The 120-cell is the convex hull of a compound of 120 disjoint regular 5-cells, of 75 disjoint 16-cells, of 25 disjoint 24-cells, and of 5 disjoint 600-cells.

The 120-cell contains an even larger inventory of irregular polytopes, created by the intersection of multiple instances of these component regular 4-polytopes. Many are quite unexpected, because they do not occur as components of any regular polytope smaller than the 120-cell. As just one example among the [[120-cell#Concentric hulls|sections of the 120-cell]], there is an irregular 24-point polyhedron with 16 triangle faces and 4 nonagon {9} faces.{{Sfn|Moxness|}}

Most renderings of the 120-cell, like the rotating projection here, only illustrate its outer surface, which is a honeycomb of face-bonded dodecahedral cells. Only the objects in its 3-dimensional surface are rendered, namely the 120 dodecahedra, their pentagon faces, and their edges. Although the 120-cell has chords of 30 distinct lengths, in this kind of simplified rendering only the 120-cell's own edges (its shortest chord) are shown. Its 29 interior chords, the edges of objects in the interior of the 120-cell, are not rendered, so interior objects are not visible at all.

Visualizing the complete interior of the 600-vertex 120-cell in a single image is impractical because of its complexity. Only four 120-cell edges are incident at each vertex, but [[120-cell#Chords|600 chords (of all 30 lengths)]] are incident at ''each'' vertex.

== Compounds in the 120-cell ==
The 8-point (16-cell), not the 5-point (5-cell), is the smallest building block; it compounds to every larger regular 4-polytope. The 5-point (5-cell) does compound to the 600-point (120-cell), but it does not fit into any smaller regular 4-polytope. 

The 8-point (16-cell) compounds by 2 in the 16-point (8-cell), and by 3 in the 24-point (24-cell). The 16-point (8-cell) compounds in the 24-point (24-cell) by 3 non-disjoint instances of itself, with each of the 24 vertices shared by two 16-point (8-cells). The 24-point (24-cell) compounds by 5 disjoint instances of itself in the 120-point (600-cell), and the 120-point (600-cell) compounds by 5 disjoint instances of itself in the 600-point (120-cell).

The 24-point (24-cell) also compounds by &lt;math&gt;5^2&lt;/math&gt; non-disjoint instances of itself in the 120-point (600-cell); it compounds in 5 disjoint instances of itself, 10 (not 5) different ways. Whichever set of 5 disjoint 24-point (24-cells) are assembled, the resulting 120-point (600-cell) contains 25 distinct 24-point (24-cells), not just 5 (or 10). This implies that 15 disjoint 8-point (16-cells) will construct a 120-point (600-cell), which will contain 75 distinct 8-point (16-cells). 

The 600-point (120-cell) is 5 disjoint 120-point (600-cells), just 2 different ways (not 5 or 10 ways), so it is 10 distinct 120-point (600-cells). This implies that the 8-point (16-cell) compounds by 3 times &lt;math&gt;5^2&lt;/math&gt; (75) disjoint instances of itself in the 600-point (120-cell), which contains &lt;math&gt;3^2&lt;/math&gt; times  &lt;math&gt;5^2&lt;/math&gt; (225) distinct instances of the 24-point (24-cell), and  &lt;math&gt;3^3&lt;/math&gt; times &lt;math&gt;5^2&lt;/math&gt; (675) distinct instances of the 8-point (16-cell). 

These facts were discovered painstakingly by various researchers, and no one has found a general rule governing subsumption relations among regular polytopes. The reasons for some of their numeric incidence relations are far from obvious. [[W:Pieter Hendrik Schoute|Schoute]] was the first to see that the 120-point (600-cell) is a compound of 5 24-point (24-cells) ''10 different ways'', and after he saw it a hundred years lapsed until Denney, Hooker, Johnson, Robinson, Butler &amp; Claiborne proved his result, and showed why.{{Sfn|Denney, Hooker, Johnson, Robinson, Butler &amp; Claiborne|2020|loc=''The geometry of H4 polytopes''}}

So much for the compounds of 16-cells. The 120-cell is also the convex hull of the compound of 120 disjoint regular 5-cells. That stellated compound (without its convex hull of 120-cell edges) is the [[w:Great_grand_stellated_120-cell|great grand stellated 120-cell]] illustrated above, the final regular [[W:Stellation|stellation]] of the 120-cell, and the only [[W:Schläfli-Hess polychoron|regular star 4-polytope]] to have the 120-cell for its convex hull. The edges of the great grand stellated 120-cell are &lt;math&gt;\phi^6&lt;/math&gt; as long as those of its 120-cell [[W:List of polyhedral stellations#Stellation process|stellation core]] deep inside.

The compound of 120 disjoint 5-point (5-cells) can be seen to be equivalent to the compound of 5 disjoint 120-point (600-cells), as follows. Beginning with a single 120-point (600-cell), expand each vertex into a regular 5-cell, by adding 4 new equidistant vertices, such that the 5 vertices form a regular 5-cell inscribed in the 3-sphere. The 120 5-cells are disjoint, and the 600 vertices form 5 disjoint 120-point (600-cells): a 120-cell.

== Thirty distinguished distances ==
The 30 numbers listed in the table are all-important in Euclidean geometry. A case can be made on symmetry grounds that their squares are the 30 most important numbers between 0 and 4. The 30 rows of the table are the 30 distinct [[120-cell#Geodesic rectangles|chord lengths of the unit-radius 120-cell]], the largest regular convex 4-polytope. Since the 120-cell subsumes all smaller regular polytopes, its 30 chords are the complete chord set of all the regular polytopes that can be constructed in the first four dimensions of Euclidean space, except for regular polygons of more than 15 sides.

{| class=&quot;wikitable&quot; style=&quot;white-space:nowrap;text-align:center&quot;
!rowspan=2|&lt;math&gt;c_t&lt;/math&gt;
!rowspan=2|arc
!rowspan=2|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{n}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
!rowspan=2|&lt;math&gt;\left\{p\right\}&lt;/math&gt;
!rowspan=2|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;m\left\{\frac{k}{d}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
!rowspan=2|Steinbach roots
!colspan=7|Chord lengths of the unit 120-cell
|-
!colspan=5|unit-radius length &lt;math&gt;c_t&lt;/math&gt;
!colspan=2|unit-edge length &lt;math&gt;c_t/c_1&lt;/math&gt;&lt;br&gt;in 120-cell of radius &lt;math&gt;c_8=\sqrt{2}\phi^2&lt;/math&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{1,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;15.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{30\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{30\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{4,1}-c_{2,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{7-3 \sqrt{5}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.270091&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\sqrt{2} \phi ^2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2 \phi ^4}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.072949}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{2,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;25.2{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{2}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2 \left\{15\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \left(c_{18,1}-c_{4,1}\right)&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{3-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.437016&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\sqrt{2} \phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2 \phi ^2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.190983}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi &lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.61803&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{3,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;36{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{3}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{10\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;3 \left\{\frac{10}{3}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \left(\sqrt{5}-1\right) c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \left(\sqrt{5}-1\right)&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.618034&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{\phi ^2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.381966}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2} \phi &lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2.28825&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{4,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;41.4{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{60}{7}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{c_{8,1}}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.707107&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2.61803&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{5,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;44.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{4}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2 \left\{\frac{15}{2}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3} c_{2,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{9-3 \sqrt{5}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.756934&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}}}{\phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2 \phi ^2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.572949}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3} \phi &lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2.80252&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{6,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;49.1{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{120}{17}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{5-\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{5-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.831254&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\frac{1}{\phi }}}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{\sqrt{5}}{2 \phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.690983}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\phi ^3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;3.07768&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{7,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;56.0{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{20}{3}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}-\frac{1}{\phi }} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}-\frac{2}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.93913&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{\frac{\psi }{\phi }}}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{\psi }{2 \phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.881966}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\psi  \phi ^3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;3.47709&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;60{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{5}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{6\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{6\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;3.70246&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{9,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;66.1{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{40}{7}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}-\frac{1}{2 \phi }} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}-\frac{1}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.09132&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{\frac{\chi }{\phi }}}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{\chi }{2 \phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.19098}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\chi  \phi ^3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;4.04057&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{10,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;69.8{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{60}{11}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi  c_{4,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1+\sqrt{5}}{2 \sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.14412&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\phi }{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{\phi ^2}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.30902}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^3&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;4.23607&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{11,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;72{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{6}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{5\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{5\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\frac{1}{\phi }} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\frac{2}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.17557&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3-\phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3-\phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.38197}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2} \sqrt{3-\phi } \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;4.3525&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{12,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;75.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{24}{5}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.22474&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;4.53457&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{13,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;81.1{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{60}{13}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{9-\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{9-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.30038&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{9-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{4} \left(9-\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.69098}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2} \left(9-\sqrt{5}\right)} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;4.8146&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{14,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;84.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{40}{9}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\phi } c_{8,1}}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{1+\sqrt{5}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.345&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\phi }}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{\sqrt{5} \phi }{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.80902}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\phi ^5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;4.9798&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{15,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;90.0{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{7}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{4\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{4\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2 c_{4,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.41421&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2 \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;5.23607&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{16,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;95.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{120}{29}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{11-\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{11-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.4802&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{11-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{4} \left(11-\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.19098}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2} \left(11-\sqrt{5}\right)} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;5.48037&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{17,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;98.9{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{120}{31}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{7+\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{7+\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.51954&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{7+\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{4} \left(7+\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.30902}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\psi  \phi ^5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;5.62605&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{18,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;104.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{8}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{15}{4}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.58114&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{5} \sqrt{\phi ^4}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;5.8541&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{19,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;108.0{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{9}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{10}{3}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{3,1}+c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \left(1+\sqrt{5}\right)&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.61803&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi &lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1+\phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.61803}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2} \phi ^3&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;5.9907&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{20,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;110.2{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{120}{7}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{13-\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{13-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.64042&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{13-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{4} \left(13-\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.69098}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2 \sqrt{8-\phi ^2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.07359&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{21,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;113.9{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{60}{19}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}+\frac{1}{1+\sqrt{5}}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}+\frac{1}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.67601&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}+\frac{1}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}+\frac{1}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.80902}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2 \sqrt{8-\frac{\chi }{\phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.20537&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{22,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;120{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{10}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{3\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{3\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.73205&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{6} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.41285&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{23,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;124.0{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{120}{41}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{\phi }+\frac{5}{2}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}+\frac{2}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.7658&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{4-\frac{\psi }{2 \phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{4-\frac{\psi }{2 \phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.11803}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\chi  \phi ^5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.53779&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{24,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;130.9{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{20}{7}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{11+\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{11+\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.81907&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{11+\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{4} \left(11+\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.30902}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2 \sqrt{8-\frac{\sqrt{5}}{\phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.73503&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{25,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;135.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{11}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{11}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{7+3 \sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{7+3 \sqrt{5}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.85123&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\phi ^2}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{\phi ^4}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.42705}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^4&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.8541&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{26,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;138.6{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{12}{5}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{7}{2}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{7}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.87083&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{7}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{7}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{7} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.92667&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{27,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;144{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{12}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{5}{2}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2} \left(5+\sqrt{5}\right)} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2} \left(5+\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.90211&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\phi +2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2+\phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.61803}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2 \sqrt{2 \phi +4}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;7.0425&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{28,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;154.8{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{13}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{13}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{13+\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{13+\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.95167&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{13+\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{4} \left(13+\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.80902}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2 \sqrt{8-\frac{1}{\phi ^2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;7.22598&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{29,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;164.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{14}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{15}{7}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi  c_{12,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{\frac{3}{2}} \left(1+\sqrt{5}\right)&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.98168&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}} \phi &lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3 \phi ^2}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.92705}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3} \phi ^3&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;7.33708&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{30,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;180{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{15}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{2\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{2\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2 c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2.&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{4}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{4.}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2 \sqrt{2} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;7.40492&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|rowspan=4 colspan=6|
|rowspan=4 colspan=4|
&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; is the golden ratio:&lt;br&gt;
&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2-\phi -1=0&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;&lt;br&gt;
&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\phi }+1=\phi&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;, and: &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi+1=\phi^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;&lt;br&gt;
&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\phi }::1::\phi ::\phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;&lt;br&gt;
&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1/\phi&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; and &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; are the golden sections of &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;:&lt;br&gt;
&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi +\frac{1}{\phi }=\sqrt{5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|colspan=2|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi = (\sqrt{5} + 1)/2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.618034&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|colspan=2|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\chi = (3\sqrt{5} + 1)/2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;3.854102&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|colspan=2|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\psi = (3\sqrt{5} - 1)/2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2.854102&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|colspan=2|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\psi = 11/\chi = 22/(3\sqrt{5} + 1)&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2.854102&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|}

...

== The 8-point regular polytopes ==
In 2-space we have the regular 8-point octagon, in 3-space the regular 8-point cube, and in 4-space the regular 8-point [[W:16-cell|16-cell]].

A planar octagon with rigid edges of unit length has chords of length:

:&lt;math&gt;r_1=1,r_2=\sqrt{2+\sqrt{2}} \approx 1.84776,r_3=1+\sqrt{2} \approx 2.41421,r_4=\sqrt{4 + \sqrt{8}} \approx 2.61313&lt;/math&gt;

The chord ratio &lt;math&gt;r_3=1+\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt; is a geometrical proportion, the [[W:Silver ratio|silver ratio]]. Fontaine and Hurley's procedure for obtaining the reciprocal of a chord tells us that:

:&lt;math&gt;r_3-r_1-r_1=1/r_3 \approx 0.41421&lt;/math&gt;

Notice that &lt;math&gt;1/r_3=\sqrt{2}-1=r_3-2&lt;/math&gt;.

If we embed this planar octagon in 3-space, we can make it skew, repositioning its vertices so that each is one unit-edge length distant from three others instead of two others, so we obtain a unit-edge cube with chords of length:

:&lt;math&gt;r_1=1, r_2=\sqrt{2}, r_3=\sqrt{3}, r_4=\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;

If we embed this cube in 4-space, we can skew it some more, repositioning its vertices so that each is one unit-edge length distant from six others instead of three others, so we obtain a unit-edge 4-polytope with chords of length:

:&lt;math&gt;r_1=1,r_2=1,r_3=1,r_4=\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;

All of its chords except its long diameters are the same unit length as its edge. In fact they are its 24 edges, and it is a 16-cell of radius &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1/\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;.

[[File:octagon16cell.png|thumb|B&lt;sub&gt;4&lt;/sub&gt; orthogonal projection of a regular 16-cell. Only its edges are shown; its long diameter chords are not drawn. All of the 24 edges are the same length. Only the edges of two completely orthogonal squares lie parallel to the view plane.]]

The [[16-cell]] is the [[W:Regular convex 4-polytope|regular convex 4-polytope]] with [[W:Schläfli symbol|Schläfli symbol]] {3,3,4}. It has 8 vertices, 24 edges, 32 equilateral triangle faces, and 16 regular tetrahedron cells. It is the [[16-cell#Octahedral dipyramid|four-dimensional analogue of the octahedron]], and each of its four orthogonal central hyperplanes is an octahedron.

The only planar regular polygons found in the 16-cell are face triangles and central plane squares, but the 16-cell also contains a regular skew octagon, its [[W:Petrie polygon|Petrie polygon]]. The chords of this regular octagon, which lies skew in 4-space, are those given above for the 16-cell, as opposed to those for the cube or the regular octagon in the plane. The 16-cell has 3 such Petrie octagons, which share the same 8 vertices but have disjoint sets of 8 edges each.

The regular octad has higher symmetry in 4-space than it does in 2-space. The 16-cell is the 4-orthoplex, the simplest regular 4-polytope after the [[5-cell|4-simplex]]. All the larger regular 4-polytopes, including the 120-cell, are compounds of the 16-cell. The regular octagon exhibits this high symmetry only when embedded in 4-space at the vertices of the 16-cell.

The 16-cell constitutes an [[W:Orthonormal basis|orthonormal basis]] for the choice of a 4-dimensional Cartesian reference frame, because its vertices define four orthogonal axes. The eight vertices of a unit-radius 16-cell are (±1, 0, 0, 0), (0, ±1, 0, 0), (0, 0, ±1, 0), (0, 0, 0, ±1). All vertices are connected by &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; edges except opposite pairs. In this convenient unit-radius 4-coordinate system, the original planar octagon we started with had chords of length:

:&lt;math&gt;r_1=\sqrt{2},r_2=\sqrt{2(2+\sqrt{2})} \approx 2.61313,r_3=2+\sqrt{2} \approx 3.41421,r_4=2 \sqrt{2+\sqrt{2}} \approx 3.69552&lt;/math&gt;

none of which chords occur in a 16-cell or 120-cell except &lt;math&gt;r_1=\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;. 

In the unit-radius 120-cell, the great square edge chord &lt;math&gt;c_{15} = \sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt; occurs in 675 distinct (75 disjoint) 16-cells. The vertex coordinates of each 16-cell form 6 central squares lying in 6 pairwise [[W:Orthogonal|orthogonal]] coordinate planes. Great squares in ''opposite'' planes that do not share an axis (e.g. in the ''xy'' and ''wz'' planes) are completely disjoint (they do not intersect at any vertices). These planes are [[W:Completely orthogonal|completely orthogonal]].{{Efn|name=Six orthogonal planes of the Cartesian basis}}

[[W:Rotations in 4-dimensional Euclidean space|Rotations in 4-dimensional Euclidean space]] can be seen as the composition of two 2-dimensional rotations in completely orthogonal planes. The general rotation in 4-space is a double rotation in pairs of completely orthogonal planes. Two completely orthogonal planes are called invariant planes of the rotation when all points in the plane rotate on circles that remain in the plane, even as the whole plane tilts sideways (like a coin flipping) into another plane. The two completely orthogonal rotations of each plane (like a wheel, and like a coin flipping) are simultaneous but independent, in that they are not geometrically constrained to turn at the same rate. However, the most circular kind of rotation (as opposed to an elliptical double rotation of a rigid spherical object) occurs when the invariant planes do rotate through the same angle in the same time interval. Such equi-angled double rotations are called [[w:SO(4)#Isoclinic_rotations|isoclinic]], also [[w:William_Kingdon_Clifford|Clifford]] displacements.

The 16-cell is the simplest possible frame in which to [[16-cell#Rotations|observe 4-dimensional rotations]] because its characteristic isoclinic rotations feature a single pair of invariant rotation planes. In the 16-cell an isoclinic rotation by 90° in any pair of invariant completely orthogonal square central planes takes every square central plane to its completely orthogonal square central plane, and takes every vertex to its antipodal vertex 180° degrees away. All the vertices move at once, displaced 180° in 8 orthogonal directions, and the rigid 16-cell assumes a new orientation in 4-space. The trajectory of each vertex is a one-eighth segment of its [[W:Geodesic|geodesic]] orbit. Its entire orbit traces a circular helix in 4-space, and also traces a great circle in one of the two completely orthogonal invariant rotation planes, as they tilt sideways into each other's plane. When the isoclinic rotation is continued in the same rotational direction through an additional 90°, each vertex is again displaced 180° to its antipodal position, but from the new orientation where the vertex is on the opposite side of the 16-cell departing in the opposite direction. In the course of a 720° isoclinic rotation each vertex departs from all 8 vertex positions just once, and returns to its original position.

== Hypercubes ==
The long diameter of the unit-edge [[W:Hypercube|hypercube]] of dimension &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;n&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; is &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{n}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;, so the unit-edge [[w:Tesseract|4-hypercube, the 16-point (8-cell) tesseract,]] has chords:
:&lt;math&gt;r_1=\sqrt{1},r_2=\sqrt{2},r_3=\sqrt{3},r_4=\sqrt{4}&lt;/math&gt;
Uniquely in its 4-dimensional case, the hypercube's edge length equals its radius, like the hexagon. We call such polytopes ''radially equilateral'', because they can be constructed from equilateral triangles which meet at their center, each contributing two radii and an edge. The cuboctahedron and the 24-cell are also radially equilateral.

The [[W:Tesseract|tesseract]] is the [[W:Regular convex 4-polytope|regular convex 4-polytope]] with [[W:Schläfli symbol|Schläfli symbol]] {4,3,3}. It has 16 vertices, 32 edges, 24 square faces, and 8 cube cells. It is the four-dimensional analogue of the cube.

The tesseract is the [[W:Dual polytope|dual polytope]] of the 16-cell. They have the same Petrie polygon, the regular octagon, but the tesseract contains 2 disjoint instances and 4 distinct instances of the skew octagon. We can construct the tesseract the way we constructed the 16-cell, by skewing a planar octagon's edges so they become edges of the 4-polytope. Because the tesseract has 16 vertices we will need two planar octagons, and to start we must embedded them in 4-space as completely orthogonal planes that intersect at only one point, their common center. Because the tesseract is radially equilateral (unlike the 16-cell), to build a unit-radius tesseract we start with our original octagon of unit-edge length, rather than the octagon of edge length &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; that we needed to build the unit-radius 16-cell.

For our tesseract construction we skew each planar octagon into a cube, so we have a compound of two completely orthogonal cubes. Provided the planes were completely orthogonal in 4-space and we skewed them both the same way, the 16 vertices will be the vertices of a tesseract with half of its 32 edges missing.

The 16-point tesseract is the convex hull of a compound of two 8-point 16-cells, in exact dimensional analogy to the way the 8-point cube is the convex hull of a [[W:Stellated octahedron|compound of two regular 4-point tetrahedra]]. The [[W:Demihypercube|demihypercubes]] occupy alternate vertices of the hypercubes. The diagonals of the square faces of the unit-radius tesseract are the &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; edges of two unit-radius 16-cells, which are also the edges of the square central planes.

Because the tesseract contains two 16-cells in alternate positions it has two sets of 6 orthogonal square central planes. Two angles are required to specify the relationship between two planes in 4-space. Pairs of planes within each 16-cell are 90° apart in one angle, and either 0° or 90° apart in the other angle. They are 90° apart in both angles if and only if they are completely orthogonal planes, 90° apart by isoclinic rotation, with no vertices in common and their corresponding vertices 180° apart. Otherwise they are 0° apart in one of the angles, 90° apart by simple rotation with their corresponding vertices 90° apart, and they intersect in one axis and lie in a common 3-dimensional hyperplane.{{Efn|A double rotation in which one of the two angles of rotation is 0°, so that one of the completely orthogonal invariant planes does not rotate, is called a simple rotation. Ordinary rotations observed in a 3-dimensional space are simple rotations.}}

A pair of square central planes from alternate 16-cells are 60° apart by isoclinic rotation, with their corresponding vertices 120° apart. The planes are not orthogonal or parallel, so they intersect in a line somewhere, but they have no vertices in common, they have no 3-dimensional hyperplane in common, and they cannot reach each other by simple rotation. Such pairs of objects are called [[W:Clifford parallel|Clifford parallel]] because all their corresponding pairs of vertices are the same distance apart, although they are not parallel in the usual sense, because they have a common center. Not only the alternate 16-cells' corresponding square central planes, but also the 16-cells themselves, are Clifford parallel objects.

We can rotate the tesseract isoclinically the way we rotated the 16-cell, by 90° in two completely orthogonal invariant square central planes, with the same effect on both alternate 16-cells. In the course of a 720° isoclinic rotation in invariant square central planes each vertex departs from all 8 vertex positions of its 16-cell just once and returns to its original position, but it does not visit the vertex positions of the other 16-cell. The skew octagon geodesic orbits of the 16 vertices are disjoint circular helixes, and those 16 circular helixes are Clifford parallel objects.

== The 24-cell ==
In 2-space we have the radially equilateral 6-point hexagon. In 3-space we have the radially equilateral 12-point cuboctahedron, with 4 hexagonal central planes. In 4-space we have the radially equilateral 24-point 24-cell, with 4 cuboctahedral central hyperplanes and 16 hexagonal central planes.

Great hexagons are a rounder choice than great squares for the invariant rotation planes in which to rotate a 4-polytope isoclinically. The complete hexagonal isoclinic revolution requires 720° like the complete square isoclinic revolution, but it is completed in 6 chordal steps of 120° each rather than 8 chordal steps of 180° each.

...

== The 600-cell ==

...

== Finally the 120-cell ==

...

== Conclusions ==

Fontaine and Hurley's discovery is more than a formula for the reciprocal of a regular ''n''-polygon diagonal. It also yields the discrete sequence of isocline chords of the distinct isoclinic rotation characteristic of a ''d''-dimensional regular polytope. The characteristic rotational chord sequence of the ''d''-polytope can be represented geometrically in two dimensions on a distinct star polygon, but it lies on a geodesic circle through ''d''-dimensional space. Fontaine and Hurley discovered the geodesic topology of polytopes generally. Their procedure will reveal the geodesics of arbitrary non-uniform polytopes, since it can be applied to a polytope of any dimensionality and irregularity, by first fitting the polytope to the smallest regular polygon whose chords include its chords.

Fontaine and Hurley's discovery of a chordal formula for isoclinic rotations closes the circuit on Kappraff and Adamson's discovery of a rotational connection between dynamical systems, Steinbach's golden fields, and Coxeter's Euclidean geometry of ''n'' dimensions. Application of the Fontaine and Hurley procedure in higher-dimensional spaces demonstrates why the connection exists: because polytope sequences generally, from Steinbach's golden polygon chord sequences, to chord sequences in isoclinic rotation helixes, to subsumption relations in the sequence of regular 4-polytopes, arise as expressions of the reflections and rotations of distinct Coxeter symmetry groups, when those various groups interact.

== Appendix: Sequence of regular 4-polytopes ==
{{Regular convex 4-polytopes|wiki=W:|columns=7}}

== Notes ==
{{Notelist}}

== Citations ==
{{Reflist}}

== References ==
{{Refbegin}}
* {{Cite journal | last=Steinbach | first=Peter | year=1997 | title=Golden fields: A case for the Heptagon | journal=Mathematics Magazine | volume=70 | issue=Feb 1997 | pages=22–31 | doi=10.1080/0025570X.1997.11996494 | jstor=2691048 | ref={{SfnRef|Steinbach|1997}} }}
* {{Cite journal | last=Steinbach | first=Peter | year=2000 | title=Sections Beyond Golden| journal=Bridges: Mathematical Connections in Art, Music and Science | issue=2000 | pages=35-44 | url=https://archive.bridgesmathart.org/2000/bridges2000-35.pdf | ref={{SfnRef|Steinbach|2000}}}}
* {{Cite journal | last1=Kappraff | first1=Jay | last2=Jablan | first2=Slavik | last3=Adamson | first3=Gary | last4=Sazdanovich | first4=Radmila | year=2004 | title=Golden Fields, Generalized Fibonacci Sequences, and Chaotic Matrices | journal=Forma | volume=19 | pages=367-387 | url=https://archive.bridgesmathart.org/2005/bridges2005-369.pdf | ref={{SfnRef|Kappraff, Jablan, Adamson &amp; Sazdanovich|2004}} }}
* {{Cite journal | last1=Kappraff | first1=Jay | last2=Adamson | first2=Gary | year=2004 | title=Polygons and Chaos | journal=Dynamical Systems and Geometric Theories | url=https://archive.bridgesmathart.org/2001/bridges2001-67.pdf | ref={{SfnRef|Kappraff &amp; Adamson|2004}} }}
* {{Cite journal | last1=Fontaine | first1=Anne | last2=Hurley | first2=Susan | year=2006 | title=Proof by Picture: Products and Reciprocals of Diagonal Length Ratios in the Regular Polygon | journal=Forum Geometricorum | volume=6 | pages=97-101 | url=https://scispace.com/pdf/proof-by-picture-products-and-reciprocals-of-diagonal-length-1aian8mgp9.pdf }}
{{Refend}}</text>
      <sha1>3gtxvh31k7m2lxu2m77rqbxiwa0331d</sha1>
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    <revision>
      <id>2808080</id>
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      <contributor>
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      <text bytes="45794" sha1="5mp5grnirv9xst86cf2kwllkvygc60u" xml:space="preserve">{{align|center|David Brooks Christie}}
{{align|center|dc@samizdat.org}}
{{align|center|Draft in progress}}
{{align|center|January 2026 - April 2026}}

&lt;blockquote&gt;Steinbach discovered the formula for the ratios of diagonal to side in the regular polygons. Fontaine and Hurley extended this result, discovering a formula for the reciprocal of a regular polygon chord derived geometrically from the chord's star polygon. We observe that these findings in plane geometry apply more generally, to polytopes of any dimensionality. Fontaine and Hurley's geometric procedure for finding the reciprocals of the chords of a regular polygon from their star polygons also finds the rotational geodesics of any polytope of any dimensionality.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
== Introduction ==
Steinbach discovered the Diagonal Product Formula and the Golden Fields family of ratios of diagonal to side in the regular polygons. He showed how this family extends beyond the pentagon {5} with its well-known golden bisection proportional to 𝜙, finding that the heptagon {7} has an analogous trisection, the nonagon {9} has an analogous quadrasection, and the hendecagon {11} has an analogous pentasection, an extended family of golden proportions with quasiperiodic properties. 

Kappraff and Adamson extended these findings in plane geometry to a theory of Generalized Fibonacci Sequences, showing that the Golden Fields not only do not end with the hendecagon, they form an infinite number of periodic trajectories when operated on by the Mandelbrot operator. They found a relation between the edges of star polygons and dynamical systems in the state of chaos, revealing a connection between chaos theory, number, and rotations in Coxeter Euclidean geometry. 

Fontaine and Hurley examined Steinbach's finding that the length of each chord of a regular polygon is both the product of two chords and the sum of a set of smaller chords, so that in rotations to add is to multiply. They illustrated Steinbach's sets of additive chords lying parallel to each other in the plane (pointing in the same direction), and by applying Steinbach's formula more generally they found another summation relation of signed parallel chords (pointing in opposite directions) which relates each chord length to its reciprocal, and relates the summation to a distinct star polygon rotation. 

We examine these remarkable findings (which stem from study of the chords of humble regular polygons) in higher-dimensional spaces, specifically in the chords, polygons and rotations of the [[120-cell]], the largest four-dimensional regular convex polytope.

== Visualizing the 120-cell ==
{| class=&quot;wikitable floatright&quot; width=&quot;400&quot;
|style=&quot;vertical-align:top&quot;|[[File:120-cell.gif|200px]]&lt;br&gt;Orthographic projection of the 600-point 120-cell &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\{5,3,3\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; performing a [[W:SO(4)#Geometry of 4D rotations|simple rotation]].{{Sfn|Hise|2011|loc=File:120-cell.gif|ps=; &quot;Created by Jason Hise with Maya and Macromedia Fireworks. A 3D projection of a 120-cell performing a [[W:SO(4)#Geometry of 4D rotations|simple rotation]].&quot;}} In this simplified rendering only the 120-cell's own edges are shown; its 29 interior chords are not rendered. Therefore even though it is translucent, only its outer surface is visible. The complex interior parts of the 120-cell, all its inscribed 5-cells, 16-cells, 8-cells, 24-cells, 600-cells and its much larger inventory of polyhedra, are completely invisible in this view, as none of their edges are rendered at all.
|style=&quot;vertical-align:top&quot;|[[File:Ortho solid 016-uniform polychoron p33-t0.png|200px]]&lt;br&gt;Orthographic projection of the 600-point [[W:Great grand stellated 120-cell|great grand stellated 120-cell]] &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\{\tfrac{5}{2},3,3\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;.{{Sfn|Ruen: Great grand stellated 120-cell|2007}} The 120-cell is its convex hull. The projection to the left renders only the 120-cell's shortest chord, its 1200 edges. The projection above also renders only one of the 120-cell's 30 chords, the edges of its 120 inscribed regular 5-cells. The 120-cell itself (the convex hull) is invisible in this view, as its edges are not rendered.
|}

[[120-cell#Geometry|The 120-cell is the maximally complex regular 4-polytope]], containing inscribed instances of every regular 1-, 2-, 3-, and 4-polytope, except the regular polygons of more than {15} sides. 

The 120-cell is the convex hull of a regular [[120-cell#Relationships among interior polytopes|compound of each of the 6 regular convex 4-polytopes]]. They are the [[5-cell|5-point (5-cell) 4-simplex]], the [[16-cell|8-point (16-cell) 4-orthoplex]], the [[W:Tesseract|16-point (8-cell) tesseract]], the [[24-cell|24-point (24-cell)]], the [[600-cell|120-point (600-cell)]], and the [[120-cell|600-point (120-cell)]]. The 120-cell is the convex hull of a compound of 120 disjoint regular 5-cells, of 75 disjoint 16-cells, of 25 disjoint 24-cells, and of 5 disjoint 600-cells.

The 120-cell contains an even larger inventory of irregular polytopes, created by the intersection of multiple instances of these component regular 4-polytopes. Many are quite unexpected, because they do not occur as components of any regular polytope smaller than the 120-cell. As just one example among the [[120-cell#Concentric hulls|sections of the 120-cell]], there is an irregular 24-point polyhedron with 16 triangle faces and 4 nonagon {9} faces.{{Sfn|Moxness|}}

Most renderings of the 120-cell, like the rotating projection here, only illustrate its outer surface, which is a honeycomb of face-bonded dodecahedral cells. Only the objects in its 3-dimensional surface are rendered, namely the 120 dodecahedra, their pentagon faces, and their edges. Although the 120-cell has chords of 30 distinct lengths, in this kind of simplified rendering only the 120-cell's own edges (its shortest chord) are shown. Its 29 interior chords, the edges of objects in the interior of the 120-cell, are not rendered, so interior objects are not visible at all.

Visualizing the complete interior of the 600-vertex 120-cell in a single image is impractical because of its complexity. Only four 120-cell edges are incident at each vertex, but [[120-cell#Chords|600 chords (of all 30 lengths)]] are incident at ''each'' vertex.

== Compounds in the 120-cell ==
The 8-point (16-cell), not the 5-point (5-cell), is the smallest building block; it compounds to every larger regular 4-polytope. The 5-point (5-cell) does compound to the 600-point (120-cell), but it does not fit into any smaller regular 4-polytope. 

The 8-point (16-cell) compounds by 2 in the 16-point (8-cell), and by 3 in the 24-point (24-cell). The 16-point (8-cell) compounds in the 24-point (24-cell) by 3 non-disjoint instances of itself, with each of the 24 vertices shared by two 16-point (8-cells). The 24-point (24-cell) compounds by 5 disjoint instances of itself in the 120-point (600-cell), and the 120-point (600-cell) compounds by 5 disjoint instances of itself in the 600-point (120-cell).

The 24-point (24-cell) also compounds by &lt;math&gt;5^2&lt;/math&gt; non-disjoint instances of itself in the 120-point (600-cell); it compounds in 5 disjoint instances of itself, 10 (not 5) different ways. Whichever set of 5 disjoint 24-point (24-cells) are assembled, the resulting 120-point (600-cell) contains 25 distinct 24-point (24-cells), not just 5 (or 10). This implies that 15 disjoint 8-point (16-cells) will construct a 120-point (600-cell), which will contain 75 distinct 8-point (16-cells). 

The 600-point (120-cell) is 5 disjoint 120-point (600-cells), just 2 different ways (not 5 or 10 ways), so it is 10 distinct 120-point (600-cells). This implies that the 8-point (16-cell) compounds by 3 times &lt;math&gt;5^2&lt;/math&gt; (75) disjoint instances of itself in the 600-point (120-cell), which contains &lt;math&gt;3^2&lt;/math&gt; times  &lt;math&gt;5^2&lt;/math&gt; (225) distinct instances of the 24-point (24-cell), and  &lt;math&gt;3^3&lt;/math&gt; times &lt;math&gt;5^2&lt;/math&gt; (675) distinct instances of the 8-point (16-cell). 

These facts were discovered painstakingly by various researchers, and no one has found a general rule governing subsumption relations among regular polytopes. The reasons for some of their numeric incidence relations are far from obvious. [[W:Pieter Hendrik Schoute|Schoute]] was the first to see that the 120-point (600-cell) is a compound of 5 24-point (24-cells) ''10 different ways'', and after he saw it a hundred years lapsed until Denney, Hooker, Johnson, Robinson, Butler &amp; Claiborne proved his result, and showed why.{{Sfn|Denney, Hooker, Johnson, Robinson, Butler &amp; Claiborne|2020|loc=''The geometry of H4 polytopes''}}

So much for the compounds of 16-cells. The 120-cell is also the convex hull of the compound of 120 disjoint regular 5-cells. That stellated compound (without its convex hull of 120-cell edges) is the [[w:Great_grand_stellated_120-cell|great grand stellated 120-cell]] illustrated above, the final regular [[W:Stellation|stellation]] of the 120-cell, and the only [[W:Schläfli-Hess polychoron|regular star 4-polytope]] to have the 120-cell for its convex hull. The edges of the great grand stellated 120-cell are &lt;math&gt;\phi^6&lt;/math&gt; as long as those of its 120-cell [[W:List of polyhedral stellations#Stellation process|stellation core]] deep inside.

The compound of 120 disjoint 5-point (5-cells) can be seen to be equivalent to the compound of 5 disjoint 120-point (600-cells), as follows. Beginning with a single 120-point (600-cell), expand each vertex into a regular 5-cell, by adding 4 new equidistant vertices, such that the 5 vertices form a regular 5-cell inscribed in the 3-sphere. The 120 5-cells are disjoint, and the 600 vertices form 5 disjoint 120-point (600-cells): a 120-cell.

== Thirty distinguished distances ==
The 30 numbers listed in the table are all-important in Euclidean geometry. A case can be made on symmetry grounds that their squares are the 30 most important numbers between 0 and 4. The 30 rows of the table are the 30 distinct [[120-cell#Geodesic rectangles|chord lengths of the unit-radius 120-cell]], the largest regular convex 4-polytope. Since the 120-cell subsumes all smaller regular polytopes, its 30 chords are the complete chord set of all the regular polytopes that can be constructed in the first four dimensions of Euclidean space, except for regular polygons of more than 15 sides.

{| class=&quot;wikitable&quot; style=&quot;white-space:nowrap;text-align:center&quot;
!rowspan=2|&lt;math&gt;c_t&lt;/math&gt;
!rowspan=2|arc
!rowspan=2|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{n}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
!rowspan=2|&lt;math&gt;\left\{p\right\}&lt;/math&gt;
!rowspan=2|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;m\left\{\frac{k}{d}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
!rowspan=2|Steinbach roots
!colspan=7|Chord lengths of the unit 120-cell
|-
!colspan=5|unit-radius length &lt;math&gt;c_t&lt;/math&gt;
!colspan=2|unit-edge length &lt;math&gt;c_t/c_1&lt;/math&gt;&lt;br&gt;in 120-cell of radius &lt;math&gt;c_8=\sqrt{2}\phi^2&lt;/math&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{1,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;15.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{30\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{30\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{4,1}-c_{2,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{7-3 \sqrt{5}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.270091&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\sqrt{2} \phi ^2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2 \phi ^4}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.072949}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{2,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;25.2{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{2}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2 \left\{15\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \left(c_{18,1}-c_{4,1}\right)&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{3-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.437016&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\sqrt{2} \phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2 \phi ^2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.190983}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi &lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.61803&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{3,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;36{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{3}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{10\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;3 \left\{\frac{10}{3}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \left(\sqrt{5}-1\right) c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \left(\sqrt{5}-1\right)&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.618034&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{\phi ^2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.381966}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2} \phi &lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2.28825&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{4,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;41.4{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{60}{7}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{c_{8,1}}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.707107&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2.61803&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{5,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;44.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{4}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2 \left\{\frac{15}{2}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3} c_{2,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{9-3 \sqrt{5}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.756934&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}}}{\phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2 \phi ^2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.572949}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3} \phi &lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2.80252&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{6,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;49.1{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{120}{17}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{5-\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{5-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.831254&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\frac{1}{\phi }}}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{\sqrt{5}}{2 \phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.690983}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\phi ^3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;3.07768&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{7,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;56.0{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{20}{3}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}-\frac{1}{\phi }} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}-\frac{2}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.93913&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{\frac{\psi }{\phi }}}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{\psi }{2 \phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.881966}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\psi  \phi ^3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;3.47709&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;60{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{5}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{6\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{6\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;3.70246&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{9,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;66.1{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{40}{7}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}-\frac{1}{2 \phi }} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}-\frac{1}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.09132&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{\frac{\chi }{\phi }}}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{\chi }{2 \phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.19098}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\chi  \phi ^3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;4.04057&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{10,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;69.8{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{60}{11}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi  c_{4,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1+\sqrt{5}}{2 \sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.14412&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\phi }{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{\phi ^2}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.30902}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^3&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;4.23607&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{11,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;72{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{6}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{5\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{5\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\frac{1}{\phi }} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\frac{2}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.17557&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3-\phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3-\phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.38197}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2} \sqrt{3-\phi } \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;4.3525&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{12,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;75.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{24}{5}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.22474&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;4.53457&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{13,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;81.1{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{60}{13}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{9-\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{9-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.30038&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{9-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{4} \left(9-\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.69098}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2} \left(9-\sqrt{5}\right)} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;4.8146&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{14,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;84.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{40}{9}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\phi } c_{8,1}}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{1+\sqrt{5}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.345&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\phi }}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{\sqrt{5} \phi }{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.80902}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\phi ^5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;4.9798&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{15,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;90.0{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{7}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{4\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{4\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2 c_{4,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.41421&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2 \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;5.23607&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{16,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;95.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{120}{29}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{11-\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{11-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.4802&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{11-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{4} \left(11-\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.19098}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2} \left(11-\sqrt{5}\right)} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;5.48037&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{17,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;98.9{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{120}{31}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{7+\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{7+\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.51954&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{7+\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{4} \left(7+\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.30902}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\psi  \phi ^5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;5.62605&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{18,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;104.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{8}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{15}{4}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.58114&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{5} \sqrt{\phi ^4}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;5.8541&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{19,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;108.0{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{9}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{10}{3}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{3,1}+c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \left(1+\sqrt{5}\right)&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.61803&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi &lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1+\phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.61803}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2} \phi ^3&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;5.9907&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{20,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;110.2{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{120}{7}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{13-\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{13-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.64042&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{13-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{4} \left(13-\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.69098}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2 \sqrt{8-\phi ^2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.07359&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{21,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;113.9{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{60}{19}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}+\frac{1}{1+\sqrt{5}}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}+\frac{1}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.67601&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}+\frac{1}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}+\frac{1}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.80902}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2 \sqrt{8-\frac{\chi }{\phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.20537&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{22,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;120{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{10}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{3\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{3\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.73205&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{6} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.41285&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{23,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;124.0{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{120}{41}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{\phi }+\frac{5}{2}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}+\frac{2}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.7658&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{4-\frac{\psi }{2 \phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{4-\frac{\psi }{2 \phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.11803}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\chi  \phi ^5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.53779&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{24,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;130.9{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{20}{7}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{11+\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{11+\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.81907&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{11+\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{4} \left(11+\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.30902}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2 \sqrt{8-\frac{\sqrt{5}}{\phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.73503&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{25,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;135.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{11}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{11}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{7+3 \sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{7+3 \sqrt{5}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.85123&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\phi ^2}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{\phi ^4}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.42705}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^4&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.8541&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{26,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;138.6{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{12}{5}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{7}{2}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{7}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.87083&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{7}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{7}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{7} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.92667&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{27,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;144{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{12}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{5}{2}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2} \left(5+\sqrt{5}\right)} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2} \left(5+\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.90211&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\phi +2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2+\phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.61803}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2 \sqrt{2 \phi +4}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;7.0425&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{28,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;154.8{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{13}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{13}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{13+\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{13+\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.95167&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{13+\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{4} \left(13+\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.80902}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2 \sqrt{8-\frac{1}{\phi ^2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;7.22598&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{29,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;164.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{14}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{15}{7}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi  c_{12,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{\frac{3}{2}} \left(1+\sqrt{5}\right)&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.98168&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}} \phi &lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3 \phi ^2}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.92705}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3} \phi ^3&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;7.33708&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{30,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;180{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{15}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{2\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{2\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2 c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2.&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{4}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{4.}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2 \sqrt{2} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;7.40492&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|rowspan=4 colspan=6|
|rowspan=4 colspan=4|
&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; is the golden ratio:&lt;br&gt;
&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2-\phi -1=0&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;&lt;br&gt;
&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\phi }+1=\phi&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;, and: &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi+1=\phi^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;&lt;br&gt;
&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\phi }::1::\phi ::\phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;&lt;br&gt;
&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1/\phi&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; and &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; are the golden sections of &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;:&lt;br&gt;
&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi +\frac{1}{\phi }=\sqrt{5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|colspan=2|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi = (\sqrt{5} + 1)/2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.618034&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|colspan=2|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\chi = (3\sqrt{5} + 1)/2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;3.854102&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|colspan=2|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\psi = (3\sqrt{5} - 1)/2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2.854102&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|colspan=2|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\psi = 11/\chi = 22/(3\sqrt{5} + 1)&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2.854102&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|}

...

== The 8-point regular polytopes ==
In 2-space we have the regular 8-point octagon, in 3-space the regular 8-point cube, and in 4-space the regular 8-point [[W:16-cell|16-cell]].

A planar octagon with rigid edges of unit length has chords of length:

:&lt;math&gt;r_1=1,r_2=\sqrt{2+\sqrt{2}} \approx 1.84776,r_3=1+\sqrt{2} \approx 2.41421,r_4=\sqrt{4 + \sqrt{8}} \approx 2.61313&lt;/math&gt;

The chord ratio &lt;math&gt;r_3=1+\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt; is a geometrical proportion, the [[W:Silver ratio|silver ratio]]. Fontaine and Hurley's procedure for obtaining the reciprocal of a chord tells us that:

:&lt;math&gt;r_3-r_1-r_1=1/r_3 \approx 0.41421&lt;/math&gt;

Notice that &lt;math&gt;1/r_3=\sqrt{2}-1=r_3-2&lt;/math&gt;.

If we embed this planar octagon in 3-space, we can make it skew, repositioning its vertices so that each is one unit-edge length distant from three others instead of two others, so we obtain a unit-edge cube with chords of length:

:&lt;math&gt;r_1=1, r_2=\sqrt{2}, r_3=\sqrt{3}, r_4=\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;

If we embed this cube in 4-space, we can skew it some more, repositioning its vertices so that each is one unit-edge length distant from six others instead of three others, so we obtain a unit-edge 4-polytope with chords of length:

:&lt;math&gt;r_1=1,r_2=1,r_3=1,r_4=\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;

All of its chords except its long diameters are the same unit length as its edge. In fact they are its 24 edges, and it is a 16-cell of radius &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1/\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;.

[[File:octagon16cell.png|thumb|[[16-cell#Projections|B&lt;sub&gt;4&lt;/sub&gt; orthogonal projection]] of a regular 16-cell. Only its edges are shown; its long diameter chords are not drawn. All of the 24 edges are the same length. Only the edges of two completely orthogonal squares lie parallel to the view plane.]]

The [[16-cell]] is the [[W:Regular convex 4-polytope|regular convex 4-polytope]] with [[W:Schläfli symbol|Schläfli symbol]] {3,3,4}. It has 8 vertices, 24 edges, 32 equilateral triangle faces, and 16 regular tetrahedron cells. It is the [[16-cell#Octahedral dipyramid|four-dimensional analogue of the octahedron]], and each of its four orthogonal central hyperplanes is an octahedron.

The only planar regular polygons found in the 16-cell are face triangles and central plane squares, but the 16-cell also contains a regular skew octagon, its [[W:Petrie polygon|Petrie polygon]]. The chords of this regular octagon, which lies skew in 4-space, are those given above for the 16-cell, as opposed to those for the cube or the regular octagon in the plane. The 16-cell has 3 such Petrie octagons, which share the same 8 vertices but have disjoint sets of 8 edges each.

The regular octad has higher symmetry in 4-space than it does in 2-space. The 16-cell is the 4-orthoplex, the simplest regular 4-polytope after the [[5-cell|4-simplex]]. All the larger regular 4-polytopes, including the 120-cell, are compounds of the 16-cell. The regular octagon exhibits this high symmetry only when embedded in 4-space at the vertices of the 16-cell.

The 16-cell constitutes an [[W:Orthonormal basis|orthonormal basis]] for the choice of a 4-dimensional Cartesian reference frame, because its vertices define four orthogonal axes. The eight vertices of a unit-radius 16-cell are (±1, 0, 0, 0), (0, ±1, 0, 0), (0, 0, ±1, 0), (0, 0, 0, ±1). All vertices are connected by &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; edges except opposite pairs. In this convenient unit-radius 4-coordinate system, the original planar octagon we started with had chords of length:

:&lt;math&gt;r_1=\sqrt{2},r_2=\sqrt{2(2+\sqrt{2})} \approx 2.61313,r_3=2+\sqrt{2} \approx 3.41421,r_4=2 \sqrt{2+\sqrt{2}} \approx 3.69552&lt;/math&gt;

none of which chords occur in a 16-cell or 120-cell except &lt;math&gt;r_1=\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;. 

In the unit-radius 120-cell, the great square edge chord &lt;math&gt;c_{15} = \sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt; occurs in 675 distinct (75 disjoint) 16-cells. The vertex coordinates of each 16-cell form 6 central squares lying in 6 pairwise [[W:Orthogonal|orthogonal]] coordinate planes. Great squares in ''opposite'' planes that do not share an axis (e.g. in the ''xy'' and ''wz'' planes) are completely disjoint (they do not intersect at any vertices). These planes are [[W:Completely orthogonal|completely orthogonal]].{{Efn|name=Six orthogonal planes of the Cartesian basis}}

[[W:Rotations in 4-dimensional Euclidean space|Rotations in 4-dimensional Euclidean space]] can be seen as the composition of two 2-dimensional rotations in completely orthogonal planes. The general rotation in 4-space is a double rotation in pairs of completely orthogonal planes. Two completely orthogonal planes are called invariant planes of the rotation when all points in the plane rotate on circles that remain in the plane, even as the whole plane tilts sideways (like a coin flipping) into another plane. The two completely orthogonal rotations of each plane (like a wheel, and like a coin flipping) are simultaneous but independent, in that they are not geometrically constrained to turn at the same rate. However, the most circular kind of rotation (as opposed to an elliptical double rotation of a rigid spherical object) occurs when the invariant planes do rotate through the same angle in the same time interval. Such equi-angled double rotations are called [[w:SO(4)#Isoclinic_rotations|isoclinic]], also [[w:William_Kingdon_Clifford|Clifford]] displacements.

The 16-cell is the simplest possible frame in which to [[16-cell#Rotations|observe 4-dimensional rotations]] because its characteristic isoclinic rotations feature a single pair of invariant rotation planes. In the 16-cell an isoclinic rotation by 90° in any pair of invariant completely orthogonal square central planes takes every square central plane to its completely orthogonal square central plane, and takes every vertex to its antipodal vertex 180° degrees away. All the vertices move at once, displaced 180° in 8 orthogonal directions, and the rigid 16-cell assumes a new orientation in 4-space. The trajectory of each vertex is a one-eighth segment of its [[W:Geodesic|geodesic]] orbit. Its entire orbit traces a circular helix in 4-space, and also traces a great circle in one of the two completely orthogonal invariant rotation planes, as they tilt sideways into each other's plane. When the isoclinic rotation is continued in the same rotational direction through an additional 90°, each vertex is again displaced 180° to its antipodal position, but from the new orientation where the vertex is on the opposite side of the 16-cell departing in the opposite direction. In the course of a 720° isoclinic rotation each vertex departs from all 8 vertex positions just once, and returns to its original position.

== Hypercubes ==
The long diameter of the unit-edge [[W:Hypercube|hypercube]] of dimension &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;n&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; is &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{n}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;, so the unit-edge [[w:Tesseract|4-hypercube, the 16-point (8-cell) tesseract,]] has chords:
:&lt;math&gt;r_1=\sqrt{1},r_2=\sqrt{2},r_3=\sqrt{3},r_4=\sqrt{4}&lt;/math&gt;
Uniquely in its 4-dimensional case, the hypercube's edge length equals its radius, like the hexagon. We call such polytopes ''radially equilateral'', because they can be constructed from equilateral triangles which meet at their center, each contributing two radii and an edge. The cuboctahedron and the 24-cell are also radially equilateral.

The [[W:Tesseract|tesseract]] is the [[W:Regular convex 4-polytope|regular convex 4-polytope]] with [[W:Schläfli symbol|Schläfli symbol]] {4,3,3}. It has 16 vertices, 32 edges, 24 square faces, and 8 cube cells. It is the four-dimensional analogue of the cube.

The tesseract is the [[W:Dual polytope|dual polytope]] of the 16-cell. They have the same Petrie polygon, the regular octagon, but the tesseract contains 2 disjoint instances and 4 distinct instances of the skew octagon. We can construct the tesseract the way we constructed the 16-cell, by skewing a planar octagon's edges so they become edges of the 4-polytope. Because the tesseract has 16 vertices we will need two planar octagons, and to start we must embedded them in 4-space as completely orthogonal planes that intersect at only one point, their common center. Because the tesseract is radially equilateral (unlike the 16-cell), to build a unit-radius tesseract we start with our original octagon of unit-edge length, rather than the octagon of edge length &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; that we needed to build the unit-radius 16-cell.

For our tesseract construction we skew each planar octagon into a cube, so we have a compound of two completely orthogonal cubes. Provided the planes were completely orthogonal in 4-space and we skewed them both the same way, the 16 vertices will be the vertices of a tesseract with half of its 32 edges missing.

The 16-point tesseract is the convex hull of a compound of two 8-point 16-cells, in exact dimensional analogy to the way the 8-point cube is the convex hull of a [[W:Stellated octahedron|compound of two regular 4-point tetrahedra]]. The [[W:Demihypercube|demihypercubes]] occupy alternate vertices of the hypercubes. The diagonals of the square faces of the unit-radius tesseract are the &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; edges of two unit-radius 16-cells, which are also the edges of the square central planes.

Because the tesseract contains two 16-cells in alternate positions it has two sets of 6 orthogonal square central planes. Two angles are required to specify the relationship between two planes in 4-space. Pairs of planes within each 16-cell are 90° apart in one angle, and either 0° or 90° apart in the other angle. They are 90° apart in both angles if and only if they are completely orthogonal planes, 90° apart by isoclinic rotation, with no vertices in common and their corresponding vertices 180° apart. Otherwise they are 0° apart in one of the angles, 90° apart by simple rotation with their corresponding vertices 90° apart, and they intersect in one axis and lie in a common 3-dimensional hyperplane.{{Efn|A double rotation in which one of the two angles of rotation is 0°, so that one of the completely orthogonal invariant planes does not rotate, is called a simple rotation. Ordinary rotations observed in a 3-dimensional space are simple rotations.}}

A pair of square central planes from alternate 16-cells are 60° apart by isoclinic rotation, with their corresponding vertices 120° apart. The planes are not orthogonal or parallel, so they intersect in a line somewhere, but they have no vertices in common, they have no 3-dimensional hyperplane in common, and they cannot reach each other by simple rotation. Such pairs of objects are called [[W:Clifford parallel|Clifford parallel]] because all their corresponding pairs of vertices are the same distance apart, although they are not parallel in the usual sense, because they have a common center. Not only the alternate 16-cells' corresponding square central planes, but also the 16-cells themselves, are Clifford parallel objects.

We can rotate the tesseract isoclinically the way we rotated the 16-cell, by 90° in two completely orthogonal invariant square central planes, with the same effect on both alternate 16-cells. In the course of a 720° isoclinic rotation in invariant square central planes each vertex departs from all 8 vertex positions of its 16-cell just once and returns to its original position, but it does not visit the vertex positions of the other 16-cell. The skew octagon geodesic orbits of the 16 vertices are disjoint circular helixes, and those 16 circular helixes are Clifford parallel objects.

== The 24-cell ==
In 2-space we have the radially equilateral 6-point hexagon. In 3-space we have the radially equilateral 12-point cuboctahedron, with 4 hexagonal central planes. In 4-space we have the radially equilateral 24-point 24-cell, with 4 cuboctahedral central hyperplanes and 16 hexagonal central planes.

Great hexagons are a rounder choice than great squares for the invariant rotation planes in which to rotate a 4-polytope isoclinically. The complete hexagonal isoclinic revolution requires 720° like the complete square isoclinic revolution, but it is completed in 6 chordal steps of 120° each rather than 8 chordal steps of 180° each.

...

== The 600-cell ==

...

== Finally the 120-cell ==

...

== Conclusions ==

Fontaine and Hurley's discovery is more than a formula for the reciprocal of a regular ''n''-polygon diagonal. It also yields the discrete sequence of isocline chords of the distinct isoclinic rotation characteristic of a ''d''-dimensional regular polytope. The characteristic rotational chord sequence of the ''d''-polytope can be represented geometrically in two dimensions on a distinct star polygon, but it lies on a geodesic circle through ''d''-dimensional space. Fontaine and Hurley discovered the geodesic topology of polytopes generally. Their procedure will reveal the geodesics of arbitrary non-uniform polytopes, since it can be applied to a polytope of any dimensionality and irregularity, by first fitting the polytope to the smallest regular polygon whose chords include its chords.

Fontaine and Hurley's discovery of a chordal formula for isoclinic rotations closes the circuit on Kappraff and Adamson's discovery of a rotational connection between dynamical systems, Steinbach's golden fields, and Coxeter's Euclidean geometry of ''n'' dimensions. Application of the Fontaine and Hurley procedure in higher-dimensional spaces demonstrates why the connection exists: because polytope sequences generally, from Steinbach's golden polygon chord sequences, to chord sequences in isoclinic rotation helixes, to subsumption relations in the sequence of regular 4-polytopes, arise as expressions of the reflections and rotations of distinct Coxeter symmetry groups, when those various groups interact.

== Appendix: Sequence of regular 4-polytopes ==
{{Regular convex 4-polytopes|wiki=W:|columns=7}}

== Notes ==
{{Notelist}}

== Citations ==
{{Reflist}}

== References ==
{{Refbegin}}
* {{Cite journal | last=Steinbach | first=Peter | year=1997 | title=Golden fields: A case for the Heptagon | journal=Mathematics Magazine | volume=70 | issue=Feb 1997 | pages=22–31 | doi=10.1080/0025570X.1997.11996494 | jstor=2691048 | ref={{SfnRef|Steinbach|1997}} }}
* {{Cite journal | last=Steinbach | first=Peter | year=2000 | title=Sections Beyond Golden| journal=Bridges: Mathematical Connections in Art, Music and Science | issue=2000 | pages=35-44 | url=https://archive.bridgesmathart.org/2000/bridges2000-35.pdf | ref={{SfnRef|Steinbach|2000}}}}
* {{Cite journal | last1=Kappraff | first1=Jay | last2=Jablan | first2=Slavik | last3=Adamson | first3=Gary | last4=Sazdanovich | first4=Radmila | year=2004 | title=Golden Fields, Generalized Fibonacci Sequences, and Chaotic Matrices | journal=Forma | volume=19 | pages=367-387 | url=https://archive.bridgesmathart.org/2005/bridges2005-369.pdf | ref={{SfnRef|Kappraff, Jablan, Adamson &amp; Sazdanovich|2004}} }}
* {{Cite journal | last1=Kappraff | first1=Jay | last2=Adamson | first2=Gary | year=2004 | title=Polygons and Chaos | journal=Dynamical Systems and Geometric Theories | url=https://archive.bridgesmathart.org/2001/bridges2001-67.pdf | ref={{SfnRef|Kappraff &amp; Adamson|2004}} }}
* {{Cite journal | last1=Fontaine | first1=Anne | last2=Hurley | first2=Susan | year=2006 | title=Proof by Picture: Products and Reciprocals of Diagonal Length Ratios in the Regular Polygon | journal=Forum Geometricorum | volume=6 | pages=97-101 | url=https://scispace.com/pdf/proof-by-picture-products-and-reciprocals-of-diagonal-length-1aian8mgp9.pdf }}
{{Refend}}</text>
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    <revision>
      <id>2808081</id>
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      <contributor>
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        <id>2856930</id>
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      <text bytes="45798" sha1="ii5qubduwj0o1jhk65awcs0ddnf2tuw" xml:space="preserve">{{align|center|David Brooks Christie}}
{{align|center|dc@samizdat.org}}
{{align|center|Draft in progress}}
{{align|center|January 2026 - April 2026}}

&lt;blockquote&gt;Steinbach discovered the formula for the ratios of diagonal to side in the regular polygons. Fontaine and Hurley extended this result, discovering a formula for the reciprocal of a regular polygon chord derived geometrically from the chord's star polygon. We observe that these findings in plane geometry apply more generally, to polytopes of any dimensionality. Fontaine and Hurley's geometric procedure for finding the reciprocals of the chords of a regular polygon from their star polygons also finds the rotational geodesics of any polytope of any dimensionality.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
== Introduction ==
Steinbach discovered the Diagonal Product Formula and the Golden Fields family of ratios of diagonal to side in the regular polygons. He showed how this family extends beyond the pentagon {5} with its well-known golden bisection proportional to 𝜙, finding that the heptagon {7} has an analogous trisection, the nonagon {9} has an analogous quadrasection, and the hendecagon {11} has an analogous pentasection, an extended family of golden proportions with quasiperiodic properties. 

Kappraff and Adamson extended these findings in plane geometry to a theory of Generalized Fibonacci Sequences, showing that the Golden Fields not only do not end with the hendecagon, they form an infinite number of periodic trajectories when operated on by the Mandelbrot operator. They found a relation between the edges of star polygons and dynamical systems in the state of chaos, revealing a connection between chaos theory, number, and rotations in Coxeter Euclidean geometry. 

Fontaine and Hurley examined Steinbach's finding that the length of each chord of a regular polygon is both the product of two chords and the sum of a set of smaller chords, so that in rotations to add is to multiply. They illustrated Steinbach's sets of additive chords lying parallel to each other in the plane (pointing in the same direction), and by applying Steinbach's formula more generally they found another summation relation of signed parallel chords (pointing in opposite directions) which relates each chord length to its reciprocal, and relates the summation to a distinct star polygon rotation. 

We examine these remarkable findings (which stem from study of the chords of humble regular polygons) in higher-dimensional spaces, specifically in the chords, polygons and rotations of the [[120-cell]], the largest four-dimensional regular convex polytope.

== Visualizing the 120-cell ==
{| class=&quot;wikitable floatright&quot; width=&quot;400&quot;
|style=&quot;vertical-align:top&quot;|[[File:120-cell.gif|200px]]&lt;br&gt;Orthographic projection of the 600-point 120-cell &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\{5,3,3\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; performing a [[W:SO(4)#Geometry of 4D rotations|simple rotation]].{{Sfn|Hise|2011|loc=File:120-cell.gif|ps=; &quot;Created by Jason Hise with Maya and Macromedia Fireworks. A 3D projection of a 120-cell performing a [[W:SO(4)#Geometry of 4D rotations|simple rotation]].&quot;}} In this simplified rendering only the 120-cell's own edges are shown; its 29 interior chords are not rendered. Therefore even though it is translucent, only its outer surface is visible. The complex interior parts of the 120-cell, all its inscribed 5-cells, 16-cells, 8-cells, 24-cells, 600-cells and its much larger inventory of polyhedra, are completely invisible in this view, as none of their edges are rendered at all.
|style=&quot;vertical-align:top&quot;|[[File:Ortho solid 016-uniform polychoron p33-t0.png|200px]]&lt;br&gt;Orthographic projection of the 600-point [[W:Great grand stellated 120-cell|great grand stellated 120-cell]] &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\{\tfrac{5}{2},3,3\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;.{{Sfn|Ruen: Great grand stellated 120-cell|2007}} The 120-cell is its convex hull. The projection to the left renders only the 120-cell's shortest chord, its 1200 edges. The projection above also renders only one of the 120-cell's 30 chords, the edges of its 120 inscribed regular 5-cells. The 120-cell itself (the convex hull) is invisible in this view, as its edges are not rendered.
|}

[[120-cell#Geometry|The 120-cell is the maximally complex regular 4-polytope]], containing inscribed instances of every regular 1-, 2-, 3-, and 4-polytope, except the regular polygons of more than {15} sides. 

The 120-cell is the convex hull of a regular [[120-cell#Relationships among interior polytopes|compound of each of the 6 regular convex 4-polytopes]]. They are the [[5-cell|5-point (5-cell) 4-simplex]], the [[16-cell|8-point (16-cell) 4-orthoplex]], the [[W:Tesseract|16-point (8-cell) tesseract]], the [[24-cell|24-point (24-cell)]], the [[600-cell|120-point (600-cell)]], and the [[120-cell|600-point (120-cell)]]. The 120-cell is the convex hull of a compound of 120 disjoint regular 5-cells, of 75 disjoint 16-cells, of 25 disjoint 24-cells, and of 5 disjoint 600-cells.

The 120-cell contains an even larger inventory of irregular polytopes, created by the intersection of multiple instances of these component regular 4-polytopes. Many are quite unexpected, because they do not occur as components of any regular polytope smaller than the 120-cell. As just one example among the [[120-cell#Concentric hulls|sections of the 120-cell]], there is an irregular 24-point polyhedron with 16 triangle faces and 4 nonagon {9} faces.{{Sfn|Moxness|}}

Most renderings of the 120-cell, like the rotating projection here, only illustrate its outer surface, which is a honeycomb of face-bonded dodecahedral cells. Only the objects in its 3-dimensional surface are rendered, namely the 120 dodecahedra, their pentagon faces, and their edges. Although the 120-cell has chords of 30 distinct lengths, in this kind of simplified rendering only the 120-cell's own edges (its shortest chord) are shown. Its 29 interior chords, the edges of objects in the interior of the 120-cell, are not rendered, so interior objects are not visible at all.

Visualizing the complete interior of the 600-vertex 120-cell in a single image is impractical because of its complexity. Only four 120-cell edges are incident at each vertex, but [[120-cell#Chords|600 chords (of all 30 lengths)]] are incident at ''each'' vertex.

== Compounds in the 120-cell ==
The 8-point (16-cell), not the 5-point (5-cell), is the smallest building block; it compounds to every larger regular 4-polytope. The 5-point (5-cell) does compound to the 600-point (120-cell), but it does not fit into any smaller regular 4-polytope. 

The 8-point (16-cell) compounds by 2 in the 16-point (8-cell), and by 3 in the 24-point (24-cell). The 16-point (8-cell) compounds in the 24-point (24-cell) by 3 non-disjoint instances of itself, with each of the 24 vertices shared by two 16-point (8-cells). The 24-point (24-cell) compounds by 5 disjoint instances of itself in the 120-point (600-cell), and the 120-point (600-cell) compounds by 5 disjoint instances of itself in the 600-point (120-cell).

The 24-point (24-cell) also compounds by &lt;math&gt;5^2&lt;/math&gt; non-disjoint instances of itself in the 120-point (600-cell); it compounds in 5 disjoint instances of itself, 10 (not 5) different ways. Whichever set of 5 disjoint 24-point (24-cells) are assembled, the resulting 120-point (600-cell) contains 25 distinct 24-point (24-cells), not just 5 (or 10). This implies that 15 disjoint 8-point (16-cells) will construct a 120-point (600-cell), which will contain 75 distinct 8-point (16-cells). 

The 600-point (120-cell) is 5 disjoint 120-point (600-cells), just 2 different ways (not 5 or 10 ways), so it is 10 distinct 120-point (600-cells). This implies that the 8-point (16-cell) compounds by 3 times &lt;math&gt;5^2&lt;/math&gt; (75) disjoint instances of itself in the 600-point (120-cell), which contains &lt;math&gt;3^2&lt;/math&gt; times  &lt;math&gt;5^2&lt;/math&gt; (225) distinct instances of the 24-point (24-cell), and  &lt;math&gt;3^3&lt;/math&gt; times &lt;math&gt;5^2&lt;/math&gt; (675) distinct instances of the 8-point (16-cell). 

These facts were discovered painstakingly by various researchers, and no one has found a general rule governing subsumption relations among regular polytopes. The reasons for some of their numeric incidence relations are far from obvious. [[W:Pieter Hendrik Schoute|Schoute]] was the first to see that the 120-point (600-cell) is a compound of 5 24-point (24-cells) ''10 different ways'', and after he saw it a hundred years lapsed until Denney, Hooker, Johnson, Robinson, Butler &amp; Claiborne proved his result, and showed why.{{Sfn|Denney, Hooker, Johnson, Robinson, Butler &amp; Claiborne|2020|loc=''The geometry of H4 polytopes''}}

So much for the compounds of 16-cells. The 120-cell is also the convex hull of the compound of 120 disjoint regular 5-cells. That stellated compound (without its convex hull of 120-cell edges) is the [[w:Great_grand_stellated_120-cell|great grand stellated 120-cell]] illustrated above, the final regular [[W:Stellation|stellation]] of the 120-cell, and the only [[W:Schläfli-Hess polychoron|regular star 4-polytope]] to have the 120-cell for its convex hull. The edges of the great grand stellated 120-cell are &lt;math&gt;\phi^6&lt;/math&gt; as long as those of its 120-cell [[W:List of polyhedral stellations#Stellation process|stellation core]] deep inside.

The compound of 120 disjoint 5-point (5-cells) can be seen to be equivalent to the compound of 5 disjoint 120-point (600-cells), as follows. Beginning with a single 120-point (600-cell), expand each vertex into a regular 5-cell, by adding 4 new equidistant vertices, such that the 5 vertices form a regular 5-cell inscribed in the 3-sphere. The 120 5-cells are disjoint, and the 600 vertices form 5 disjoint 120-point (600-cells): a 120-cell.

== Thirty distinguished distances ==
The 30 numbers listed in the table are all-important in Euclidean geometry. A case can be made on symmetry grounds that their squares are the 30 most important numbers between 0 and 4. The 30 rows of the table are the 30 distinct [[120-cell#Geodesic rectangles|chord lengths of the unit-radius 120-cell]], the largest regular convex 4-polytope. Since the 120-cell subsumes all smaller regular polytopes, its 30 chords are the complete chord set of all the regular polytopes that can be constructed in the first four dimensions of Euclidean space, except for regular polygons of more than 15 sides.

{| class=&quot;wikitable&quot; style=&quot;white-space:nowrap;text-align:center&quot;
!rowspan=2|&lt;math&gt;c_t&lt;/math&gt;
!rowspan=2|arc
!rowspan=2|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{n}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
!rowspan=2|&lt;math&gt;\left\{p\right\}&lt;/math&gt;
!rowspan=2|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;m\left\{\frac{k}{d}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
!rowspan=2|Steinbach roots
!colspan=7|Chord lengths of the unit 120-cell
|-
!colspan=5|unit-radius length &lt;math&gt;c_t&lt;/math&gt;
!colspan=2|unit-edge length &lt;math&gt;c_t/c_1&lt;/math&gt;&lt;br&gt;in 120-cell of radius &lt;math&gt;c_8=\sqrt{2}\phi^2&lt;/math&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{1,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;15.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{30\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{30\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{4,1}-c_{2,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{7-3 \sqrt{5}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.270091&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\sqrt{2} \phi ^2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2 \phi ^4}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.072949}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{2,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;25.2{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{2}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2 \left\{15\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \left(c_{18,1}-c_{4,1}\right)&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{3-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.437016&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\sqrt{2} \phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2 \phi ^2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.190983}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi &lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.61803&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{3,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;36{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{3}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{10\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;3 \left\{\frac{10}{3}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \left(\sqrt{5}-1\right) c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \left(\sqrt{5}-1\right)&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.618034&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{\phi ^2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.381966}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2} \phi &lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2.28825&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{4,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;41.4{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{60}{7}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{c_{8,1}}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.707107&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2.61803&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{5,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;44.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{4}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2 \left\{\frac{15}{2}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3} c_{2,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{9-3 \sqrt{5}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.756934&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}}}{\phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2 \phi ^2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.572949}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3} \phi &lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2.80252&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{6,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;49.1{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{120}{17}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{5-\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{5-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.831254&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\frac{1}{\phi }}}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{\sqrt{5}}{2 \phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.690983}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\phi ^3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;3.07768&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{7,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;56.0{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{20}{3}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}-\frac{1}{\phi }} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}-\frac{2}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.93913&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{\frac{\psi }{\phi }}}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{\psi }{2 \phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.881966}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\psi  \phi ^3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;3.47709&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;60{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{5}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{6\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{6\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;3.70246&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{9,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;66.1{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{40}{7}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}-\frac{1}{2 \phi }} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}-\frac{1}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.09132&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{\frac{\chi }{\phi }}}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{\chi }{2 \phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.19098}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\chi  \phi ^3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;4.04057&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{10,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;69.8{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{60}{11}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi  c_{4,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1+\sqrt{5}}{2 \sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.14412&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\phi }{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{\phi ^2}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.30902}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^3&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;4.23607&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{11,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;72{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{6}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{5\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{5\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\frac{1}{\phi }} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\frac{2}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.17557&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3-\phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3-\phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.38197}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2} \sqrt{3-\phi } \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;4.3525&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{12,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;75.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{24}{5}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.22474&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;4.53457&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{13,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;81.1{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{60}{13}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{9-\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{9-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.30038&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{9-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{4} \left(9-\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.69098}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2} \left(9-\sqrt{5}\right)} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;4.8146&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{14,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;84.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{40}{9}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\phi } c_{8,1}}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{1+\sqrt{5}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.345&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\phi }}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{\sqrt{5} \phi }{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.80902}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\phi ^5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;4.9798&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{15,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;90.0{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{7}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{4\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{4\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2 c_{4,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.41421&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2 \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;5.23607&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{16,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;95.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{120}{29}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{11-\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{11-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.4802&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{11-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{4} \left(11-\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.19098}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2} \left(11-\sqrt{5}\right)} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;5.48037&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{17,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;98.9{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{120}{31}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{7+\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{7+\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.51954&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{7+\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{4} \left(7+\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.30902}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\psi  \phi ^5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;5.62605&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{18,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;104.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{8}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{15}{4}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.58114&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{5} \sqrt{\phi ^4}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;5.8541&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{19,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;108.0{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{9}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{10}{3}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{3,1}+c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \left(1+\sqrt{5}\right)&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.61803&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi &lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1+\phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.61803}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2} \phi ^3&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;5.9907&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{20,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;110.2{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{120}{7}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{13-\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{13-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.64042&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{13-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{4} \left(13-\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.69098}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2 \sqrt{8-\phi ^2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.07359&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{21,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;113.9{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{60}{19}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}+\frac{1}{1+\sqrt{5}}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}+\frac{1}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.67601&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}+\frac{1}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}+\frac{1}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.80902}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2 \sqrt{8-\frac{\chi }{\phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.20537&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{22,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;120{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{10}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{3\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{3\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.73205&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{6} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.41285&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{23,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;124.0{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{120}{41}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{\phi }+\frac{5}{2}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}+\frac{2}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.7658&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{4-\frac{\psi }{2 \phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{4-\frac{\psi }{2 \phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.11803}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\chi  \phi ^5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.53779&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{24,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;130.9{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{20}{7}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{11+\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{11+\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.81907&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{11+\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{4} \left(11+\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.30902}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2 \sqrt{8-\frac{\sqrt{5}}{\phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.73503&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{25,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;135.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{11}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{11}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{7+3 \sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{7+3 \sqrt{5}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.85123&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\phi ^2}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{\phi ^4}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.42705}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^4&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.8541&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{26,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;138.6{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{12}{5}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{7}{2}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{7}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.87083&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{7}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{7}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{7} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.92667&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{27,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;144{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{12}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{5}{2}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2} \left(5+\sqrt{5}\right)} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2} \left(5+\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.90211&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\phi +2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2+\phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.61803}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2 \sqrt{2 \phi +4}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;7.0425&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{28,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;154.8{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{13}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{13}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{13+\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{13+\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.95167&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{13+\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{4} \left(13+\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.80902}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2 \sqrt{8-\frac{1}{\phi ^2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;7.22598&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{29,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;164.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{14}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{15}{7}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi  c_{12,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{\frac{3}{2}} \left(1+\sqrt{5}\right)&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.98168&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}} \phi &lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3 \phi ^2}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.92705}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3} \phi ^3&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;7.33708&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{30,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;180{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{15}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{2\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{2\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2 c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2.&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{4}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{4.}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2 \sqrt{2} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;7.40492&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|rowspan=4 colspan=6|
|rowspan=4 colspan=4|
&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; is the golden ratio:&lt;br&gt;
&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2-\phi -1=0&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;&lt;br&gt;
&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\phi }+1=\phi&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;, and: &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi+1=\phi^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;&lt;br&gt;
&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\phi }::1::\phi ::\phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;&lt;br&gt;
&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1/\phi&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; and &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; are the golden sections of &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;:&lt;br&gt;
&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi +\frac{1}{\phi }=\sqrt{5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|colspan=2|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi = (\sqrt{5} + 1)/2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.618034&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|colspan=2|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\chi = (3\sqrt{5} + 1)/2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;3.854102&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|colspan=2|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\psi = (3\sqrt{5} - 1)/2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2.854102&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|colspan=2|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\psi = 11/\chi = 22/(3\sqrt{5} + 1)&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2.854102&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|}

...

== The 8-point regular polytopes ==
In 2-space we have the regular 8-point octagon, in 3-space the regular 8-point cube, and in 4-space the regular 8-point [[W:16-cell|16-cell]].

A planar octagon with rigid edges of unit length has chords of length:

:&lt;math&gt;r_1=1,r_2=\sqrt{2+\sqrt{2}} \approx 1.84776,r_3=1+\sqrt{2} \approx 2.41421,r_4=\sqrt{4 + \sqrt{8}} \approx 2.61313&lt;/math&gt;

The chord ratio &lt;math&gt;r_3=1+\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt; is a geometrical proportion, the [[W:Silver ratio|silver ratio]]. Fontaine and Hurley's procedure for obtaining the reciprocal of a chord tells us that:

:&lt;math&gt;r_3-r_1-r_1=1/r_3 \approx 0.41421&lt;/math&gt;

Notice that &lt;math&gt;1/r_3=\sqrt{2}-1=r_3-2&lt;/math&gt;.

If we embed this planar octagon in 3-space, we can make it skew, repositioning its vertices so that each is one unit-edge length distant from three others instead of two others, so we obtain a unit-edge cube with chords of length:

:&lt;math&gt;r_1=1, r_2=\sqrt{2}, r_3=\sqrt{3}, r_4=\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;

If we embed this cube in 4-space, we can skew it some more, repositioning its vertices so that each is one unit-edge length distant from six others instead of three others, so we obtain a unit-edge 4-polytope with chords of length:

:&lt;math&gt;r_1=1,r_2=1,r_3=1,r_4=\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;

All of its chords except its long diameters are the same unit length as its edge. In fact they are its 24 edges, and it is a 16-cell of radius &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1/\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;.

[[File:octagon16cell.png|thumb|The [[16-cell#Projections|B&lt;sub&gt;4&lt;/sub&gt; orthogonal projection]] of a regular 16-cell. Only its edges are shown; its long diameter chords are not drawn. All of the 24 edges are the same length. Only the edges of two completely orthogonal squares lie parallel to the view plane.]]

The [[16-cell]] is the [[W:Regular convex 4-polytope|regular convex 4-polytope]] with [[W:Schläfli symbol|Schläfli symbol]] {3,3,4}. It has 8 vertices, 24 edges, 32 equilateral triangle faces, and 16 regular tetrahedron cells. It is the [[16-cell#Octahedral dipyramid|four-dimensional analogue of the octahedron]], and each of its four orthogonal central hyperplanes is an octahedron.

The only planar regular polygons found in the 16-cell are face triangles and central plane squares, but the 16-cell also contains a regular skew octagon, its [[W:Petrie polygon|Petrie polygon]]. The chords of this regular octagon, which lies skew in 4-space, are those given above for the 16-cell, as opposed to those for the cube or the regular octagon in the plane. The 16-cell has 3 such Petrie octagons, which share the same 8 vertices but have disjoint sets of 8 edges each.

The regular octad has higher symmetry in 4-space than it does in 2-space. The 16-cell is the 4-orthoplex, the simplest regular 4-polytope after the [[5-cell|4-simplex]]. All the larger regular 4-polytopes, including the 120-cell, are compounds of the 16-cell. The regular octagon exhibits this high symmetry only when embedded in 4-space at the vertices of the 16-cell.

The 16-cell constitutes an [[W:Orthonormal basis|orthonormal basis]] for the choice of a 4-dimensional Cartesian reference frame, because its vertices define four orthogonal axes. The eight vertices of a unit-radius 16-cell are (±1, 0, 0, 0), (0, ±1, 0, 0), (0, 0, ±1, 0), (0, 0, 0, ±1). All vertices are connected by &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; edges except opposite pairs. In this convenient unit-radius 4-coordinate system, the original planar octagon we started with had chords of length:

:&lt;math&gt;r_1=\sqrt{2},r_2=\sqrt{2(2+\sqrt{2})} \approx 2.61313,r_3=2+\sqrt{2} \approx 3.41421,r_4=2 \sqrt{2+\sqrt{2}} \approx 3.69552&lt;/math&gt;

none of which chords occur in a 16-cell or 120-cell except &lt;math&gt;r_1=\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;. 

In the unit-radius 120-cell, the great square edge chord &lt;math&gt;c_{15} = \sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt; occurs in 675 distinct (75 disjoint) 16-cells. The vertex coordinates of each 16-cell form 6 central squares lying in 6 pairwise [[W:Orthogonal|orthogonal]] coordinate planes. Great squares in ''opposite'' planes that do not share an axis (e.g. in the ''xy'' and ''wz'' planes) are completely disjoint (they do not intersect at any vertices). These planes are [[W:Completely orthogonal|completely orthogonal]].{{Efn|name=Six orthogonal planes of the Cartesian basis}}

[[W:Rotations in 4-dimensional Euclidean space|Rotations in 4-dimensional Euclidean space]] can be seen as the composition of two 2-dimensional rotations in completely orthogonal planes. The general rotation in 4-space is a double rotation in pairs of completely orthogonal planes. Two completely orthogonal planes are called invariant planes of the rotation when all points in the plane rotate on circles that remain in the plane, even as the whole plane tilts sideways (like a coin flipping) into another plane. The two completely orthogonal rotations of each plane (like a wheel, and like a coin flipping) are simultaneous but independent, in that they are not geometrically constrained to turn at the same rate. However, the most circular kind of rotation (as opposed to an elliptical double rotation of a rigid spherical object) occurs when the invariant planes do rotate through the same angle in the same time interval. Such equi-angled double rotations are called [[w:SO(4)#Isoclinic_rotations|isoclinic]], also [[w:William_Kingdon_Clifford|Clifford]] displacements.

The 16-cell is the simplest possible frame in which to [[16-cell#Rotations|observe 4-dimensional rotations]] because its characteristic isoclinic rotations feature a single pair of invariant rotation planes. In the 16-cell an isoclinic rotation by 90° in any pair of invariant completely orthogonal square central planes takes every square central plane to its completely orthogonal square central plane, and takes every vertex to its antipodal vertex 180° degrees away. All the vertices move at once, displaced 180° in 8 orthogonal directions, and the rigid 16-cell assumes a new orientation in 4-space. The trajectory of each vertex is a one-eighth segment of its [[W:Geodesic|geodesic]] orbit. Its entire orbit traces a circular helix in 4-space, and also traces a great circle in one of the two completely orthogonal invariant rotation planes, as they tilt sideways into each other's plane. When the isoclinic rotation is continued in the same rotational direction through an additional 90°, each vertex is again displaced 180° to its antipodal position, but from the new orientation where the vertex is on the opposite side of the 16-cell departing in the opposite direction. In the course of a 720° isoclinic rotation each vertex departs from all 8 vertex positions just once, and returns to its original position.

== Hypercubes ==
The long diameter of the unit-edge [[W:Hypercube|hypercube]] of dimension &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;n&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; is &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{n}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;, so the unit-edge [[w:Tesseract|4-hypercube, the 16-point (8-cell) tesseract,]] has chords:
:&lt;math&gt;r_1=\sqrt{1},r_2=\sqrt{2},r_3=\sqrt{3},r_4=\sqrt{4}&lt;/math&gt;
Uniquely in its 4-dimensional case, the hypercube's edge length equals its radius, like the hexagon. We call such polytopes ''radially equilateral'', because they can be constructed from equilateral triangles which meet at their center, each contributing two radii and an edge. The cuboctahedron and the 24-cell are also radially equilateral.

The [[W:Tesseract|tesseract]] is the [[W:Regular convex 4-polytope|regular convex 4-polytope]] with [[W:Schläfli symbol|Schläfli symbol]] {4,3,3}. It has 16 vertices, 32 edges, 24 square faces, and 8 cube cells. It is the four-dimensional analogue of the cube.

The tesseract is the [[W:Dual polytope|dual polytope]] of the 16-cell. They have the same Petrie polygon, the regular octagon, but the tesseract contains 2 disjoint instances and 4 distinct instances of the skew octagon. We can construct the tesseract the way we constructed the 16-cell, by skewing a planar octagon's edges so they become edges of the 4-polytope. Because the tesseract has 16 vertices we will need two planar octagons, and to start we must embedded them in 4-space as completely orthogonal planes that intersect at only one point, their common center. Because the tesseract is radially equilateral (unlike the 16-cell), to build a unit-radius tesseract we start with our original octagon of unit-edge length, rather than the octagon of edge length &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; that we needed to build the unit-radius 16-cell.

For our tesseract construction we skew each planar octagon into a cube, so we have a compound of two completely orthogonal cubes. Provided the planes were completely orthogonal in 4-space and we skewed them both the same way, the 16 vertices will be the vertices of a tesseract with half of its 32 edges missing.

The 16-point tesseract is the convex hull of a compound of two 8-point 16-cells, in exact dimensional analogy to the way the 8-point cube is the convex hull of a [[W:Stellated octahedron|compound of two regular 4-point tetrahedra]]. The [[W:Demihypercube|demihypercubes]] occupy alternate vertices of the hypercubes. The diagonals of the square faces of the unit-radius tesseract are the &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; edges of two unit-radius 16-cells, which are also the edges of the square central planes.

Because the tesseract contains two 16-cells in alternate positions it has two sets of 6 orthogonal square central planes. Two angles are required to specify the relationship between two planes in 4-space. Pairs of planes within each 16-cell are 90° apart in one angle, and either 0° or 90° apart in the other angle. They are 90° apart in both angles if and only if they are completely orthogonal planes, 90° apart by isoclinic rotation, with no vertices in common and their corresponding vertices 180° apart. Otherwise they are 0° apart in one of the angles, 90° apart by simple rotation with their corresponding vertices 90° apart, and they intersect in one axis and lie in a common 3-dimensional hyperplane.{{Efn|A double rotation in which one of the two angles of rotation is 0°, so that one of the completely orthogonal invariant planes does not rotate, is called a simple rotation. Ordinary rotations observed in a 3-dimensional space are simple rotations.}}

A pair of square central planes from alternate 16-cells are 60° apart by isoclinic rotation, with their corresponding vertices 120° apart. The planes are not orthogonal or parallel, so they intersect in a line somewhere, but they have no vertices in common, they have no 3-dimensional hyperplane in common, and they cannot reach each other by simple rotation. Such pairs of objects are called [[W:Clifford parallel|Clifford parallel]] because all their corresponding pairs of vertices are the same distance apart, although they are not parallel in the usual sense, because they have a common center. Not only the alternate 16-cells' corresponding square central planes, but also the 16-cells themselves, are Clifford parallel objects.

We can rotate the tesseract isoclinically the way we rotated the 16-cell, by 90° in two completely orthogonal invariant square central planes, with the same effect on both alternate 16-cells. In the course of a 720° isoclinic rotation in invariant square central planes each vertex departs from all 8 vertex positions of its 16-cell just once and returns to its original position, but it does not visit the vertex positions of the other 16-cell. The skew octagon geodesic orbits of the 16 vertices are disjoint circular helixes, and those 16 circular helixes are Clifford parallel objects.

== The 24-cell ==
In 2-space we have the radially equilateral 6-point hexagon. In 3-space we have the radially equilateral 12-point cuboctahedron, with 4 hexagonal central planes. In 4-space we have the radially equilateral 24-point 24-cell, with 4 cuboctahedral central hyperplanes and 16 hexagonal central planes.

Great hexagons are a rounder choice than great squares for the invariant rotation planes in which to rotate a 4-polytope isoclinically. The complete hexagonal isoclinic revolution requires 720° like the complete square isoclinic revolution, but it is completed in 6 chordal steps of 120° each rather than 8 chordal steps of 180° each.

...

== The 600-cell ==

...

== Finally the 120-cell ==

...

== Conclusions ==

Fontaine and Hurley's discovery is more than a formula for the reciprocal of a regular ''n''-polygon diagonal. It also yields the discrete sequence of isocline chords of the distinct isoclinic rotation characteristic of a ''d''-dimensional regular polytope. The characteristic rotational chord sequence of the ''d''-polytope can be represented geometrically in two dimensions on a distinct star polygon, but it lies on a geodesic circle through ''d''-dimensional space. Fontaine and Hurley discovered the geodesic topology of polytopes generally. Their procedure will reveal the geodesics of arbitrary non-uniform polytopes, since it can be applied to a polytope of any dimensionality and irregularity, by first fitting the polytope to the smallest regular polygon whose chords include its chords.

Fontaine and Hurley's discovery of a chordal formula for isoclinic rotations closes the circuit on Kappraff and Adamson's discovery of a rotational connection between dynamical systems, Steinbach's golden fields, and Coxeter's Euclidean geometry of ''n'' dimensions. Application of the Fontaine and Hurley procedure in higher-dimensional spaces demonstrates why the connection exists: because polytope sequences generally, from Steinbach's golden polygon chord sequences, to chord sequences in isoclinic rotation helixes, to subsumption relations in the sequence of regular 4-polytopes, arise as expressions of the reflections and rotations of distinct Coxeter symmetry groups, when those various groups interact.

== Appendix: Sequence of regular 4-polytopes ==
{{Regular convex 4-polytopes|wiki=W:|columns=7}}

== Notes ==
{{Notelist}}

== Citations ==
{{Reflist}}

== References ==
{{Refbegin}}
* {{Cite journal | last=Steinbach | first=Peter | year=1997 | title=Golden fields: A case for the Heptagon | journal=Mathematics Magazine | volume=70 | issue=Feb 1997 | pages=22–31 | doi=10.1080/0025570X.1997.11996494 | jstor=2691048 | ref={{SfnRef|Steinbach|1997}} }}
* {{Cite journal | last=Steinbach | first=Peter | year=2000 | title=Sections Beyond Golden| journal=Bridges: Mathematical Connections in Art, Music and Science | issue=2000 | pages=35-44 | url=https://archive.bridgesmathart.org/2000/bridges2000-35.pdf | ref={{SfnRef|Steinbach|2000}}}}
* {{Cite journal | last1=Kappraff | first1=Jay | last2=Jablan | first2=Slavik | last3=Adamson | first3=Gary | last4=Sazdanovich | first4=Radmila | year=2004 | title=Golden Fields, Generalized Fibonacci Sequences, and Chaotic Matrices | journal=Forma | volume=19 | pages=367-387 | url=https://archive.bridgesmathart.org/2005/bridges2005-369.pdf | ref={{SfnRef|Kappraff, Jablan, Adamson &amp; Sazdanovich|2004}} }}
* {{Cite journal | last1=Kappraff | first1=Jay | last2=Adamson | first2=Gary | year=2004 | title=Polygons and Chaos | journal=Dynamical Systems and Geometric Theories | url=https://archive.bridgesmathart.org/2001/bridges2001-67.pdf | ref={{SfnRef|Kappraff &amp; Adamson|2004}} }}
* {{Cite journal | last1=Fontaine | first1=Anne | last2=Hurley | first2=Susan | year=2006 | title=Proof by Picture: Products and Reciprocals of Diagonal Length Ratios in the Regular Polygon | journal=Forum Geometricorum | volume=6 | pages=97-101 | url=https://scispace.com/pdf/proof-by-picture-products-and-reciprocals-of-diagonal-length-1aian8mgp9.pdf }}
{{Refend}}</text>
      <sha1>ii5qubduwj0o1jhk65awcs0ddnf2tuw</sha1>
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    <revision>
      <id>2808082</id>
      <parentid>2808081</parentid>
      <timestamp>2026-05-09T17:15:09Z</timestamp>
      <contributor>
        <username>Dc.samizdat</username>
        <id>2856930</id>
      </contributor>
      <comment>/* The 8-point regular polytopes */</comment>
      <origin>2808082</origin>
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      <text bytes="45817" sha1="lrjyra3sj00jr3zmd15206fwjw7g16u" xml:space="preserve">{{align|center|David Brooks Christie}}
{{align|center|dc@samizdat.org}}
{{align|center|Draft in progress}}
{{align|center|January 2026 - April 2026}}

&lt;blockquote&gt;Steinbach discovered the formula for the ratios of diagonal to side in the regular polygons. Fontaine and Hurley extended this result, discovering a formula for the reciprocal of a regular polygon chord derived geometrically from the chord's star polygon. We observe that these findings in plane geometry apply more generally, to polytopes of any dimensionality. Fontaine and Hurley's geometric procedure for finding the reciprocals of the chords of a regular polygon from their star polygons also finds the rotational geodesics of any polytope of any dimensionality.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
== Introduction ==
Steinbach discovered the Diagonal Product Formula and the Golden Fields family of ratios of diagonal to side in the regular polygons. He showed how this family extends beyond the pentagon {5} with its well-known golden bisection proportional to 𝜙, finding that the heptagon {7} has an analogous trisection, the nonagon {9} has an analogous quadrasection, and the hendecagon {11} has an analogous pentasection, an extended family of golden proportions with quasiperiodic properties. 

Kappraff and Adamson extended these findings in plane geometry to a theory of Generalized Fibonacci Sequences, showing that the Golden Fields not only do not end with the hendecagon, they form an infinite number of periodic trajectories when operated on by the Mandelbrot operator. They found a relation between the edges of star polygons and dynamical systems in the state of chaos, revealing a connection between chaos theory, number, and rotations in Coxeter Euclidean geometry. 

Fontaine and Hurley examined Steinbach's finding that the length of each chord of a regular polygon is both the product of two chords and the sum of a set of smaller chords, so that in rotations to add is to multiply. They illustrated Steinbach's sets of additive chords lying parallel to each other in the plane (pointing in the same direction), and by applying Steinbach's formula more generally they found another summation relation of signed parallel chords (pointing in opposite directions) which relates each chord length to its reciprocal, and relates the summation to a distinct star polygon rotation. 

We examine these remarkable findings (which stem from study of the chords of humble regular polygons) in higher-dimensional spaces, specifically in the chords, polygons and rotations of the [[120-cell]], the largest four-dimensional regular convex polytope.

== Visualizing the 120-cell ==
{| class=&quot;wikitable floatright&quot; width=&quot;400&quot;
|style=&quot;vertical-align:top&quot;|[[File:120-cell.gif|200px]]&lt;br&gt;Orthographic projection of the 600-point 120-cell &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\{5,3,3\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; performing a [[W:SO(4)#Geometry of 4D rotations|simple rotation]].{{Sfn|Hise|2011|loc=File:120-cell.gif|ps=; &quot;Created by Jason Hise with Maya and Macromedia Fireworks. A 3D projection of a 120-cell performing a [[W:SO(4)#Geometry of 4D rotations|simple rotation]].&quot;}} In this simplified rendering only the 120-cell's own edges are shown; its 29 interior chords are not rendered. Therefore even though it is translucent, only its outer surface is visible. The complex interior parts of the 120-cell, all its inscribed 5-cells, 16-cells, 8-cells, 24-cells, 600-cells and its much larger inventory of polyhedra, are completely invisible in this view, as none of their edges are rendered at all.
|style=&quot;vertical-align:top&quot;|[[File:Ortho solid 016-uniform polychoron p33-t0.png|200px]]&lt;br&gt;Orthographic projection of the 600-point [[W:Great grand stellated 120-cell|great grand stellated 120-cell]] &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\{\tfrac{5}{2},3,3\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;.{{Sfn|Ruen: Great grand stellated 120-cell|2007}} The 120-cell is its convex hull. The projection to the left renders only the 120-cell's shortest chord, its 1200 edges. The projection above also renders only one of the 120-cell's 30 chords, the edges of its 120 inscribed regular 5-cells. The 120-cell itself (the convex hull) is invisible in this view, as its edges are not rendered.
|}

[[120-cell#Geometry|The 120-cell is the maximally complex regular 4-polytope]], containing inscribed instances of every regular 1-, 2-, 3-, and 4-polytope, except the regular polygons of more than {15} sides. 

The 120-cell is the convex hull of a regular [[120-cell#Relationships among interior polytopes|compound of each of the 6 regular convex 4-polytopes]]. They are the [[5-cell|5-point (5-cell) 4-simplex]], the [[16-cell|8-point (16-cell) 4-orthoplex]], the [[W:Tesseract|16-point (8-cell) tesseract]], the [[24-cell|24-point (24-cell)]], the [[600-cell|120-point (600-cell)]], and the [[120-cell|600-point (120-cell)]]. The 120-cell is the convex hull of a compound of 120 disjoint regular 5-cells, of 75 disjoint 16-cells, of 25 disjoint 24-cells, and of 5 disjoint 600-cells.

The 120-cell contains an even larger inventory of irregular polytopes, created by the intersection of multiple instances of these component regular 4-polytopes. Many are quite unexpected, because they do not occur as components of any regular polytope smaller than the 120-cell. As just one example among the [[120-cell#Concentric hulls|sections of the 120-cell]], there is an irregular 24-point polyhedron with 16 triangle faces and 4 nonagon {9} faces.{{Sfn|Moxness|}}

Most renderings of the 120-cell, like the rotating projection here, only illustrate its outer surface, which is a honeycomb of face-bonded dodecahedral cells. Only the objects in its 3-dimensional surface are rendered, namely the 120 dodecahedra, their pentagon faces, and their edges. Although the 120-cell has chords of 30 distinct lengths, in this kind of simplified rendering only the 120-cell's own edges (its shortest chord) are shown. Its 29 interior chords, the edges of objects in the interior of the 120-cell, are not rendered, so interior objects are not visible at all.

Visualizing the complete interior of the 600-vertex 120-cell in a single image is impractical because of its complexity. Only four 120-cell edges are incident at each vertex, but [[120-cell#Chords|600 chords (of all 30 lengths)]] are incident at ''each'' vertex.

== Compounds in the 120-cell ==
The 8-point (16-cell), not the 5-point (5-cell), is the smallest building block; it compounds to every larger regular 4-polytope. The 5-point (5-cell) does compound to the 600-point (120-cell), but it does not fit into any smaller regular 4-polytope. 

The 8-point (16-cell) compounds by 2 in the 16-point (8-cell), and by 3 in the 24-point (24-cell). The 16-point (8-cell) compounds in the 24-point (24-cell) by 3 non-disjoint instances of itself, with each of the 24 vertices shared by two 16-point (8-cells). The 24-point (24-cell) compounds by 5 disjoint instances of itself in the 120-point (600-cell), and the 120-point (600-cell) compounds by 5 disjoint instances of itself in the 600-point (120-cell).

The 24-point (24-cell) also compounds by &lt;math&gt;5^2&lt;/math&gt; non-disjoint instances of itself in the 120-point (600-cell); it compounds in 5 disjoint instances of itself, 10 (not 5) different ways. Whichever set of 5 disjoint 24-point (24-cells) are assembled, the resulting 120-point (600-cell) contains 25 distinct 24-point (24-cells), not just 5 (or 10). This implies that 15 disjoint 8-point (16-cells) will construct a 120-point (600-cell), which will contain 75 distinct 8-point (16-cells). 

The 600-point (120-cell) is 5 disjoint 120-point (600-cells), just 2 different ways (not 5 or 10 ways), so it is 10 distinct 120-point (600-cells). This implies that the 8-point (16-cell) compounds by 3 times &lt;math&gt;5^2&lt;/math&gt; (75) disjoint instances of itself in the 600-point (120-cell), which contains &lt;math&gt;3^2&lt;/math&gt; times  &lt;math&gt;5^2&lt;/math&gt; (225) distinct instances of the 24-point (24-cell), and  &lt;math&gt;3^3&lt;/math&gt; times &lt;math&gt;5^2&lt;/math&gt; (675) distinct instances of the 8-point (16-cell). 

These facts were discovered painstakingly by various researchers, and no one has found a general rule governing subsumption relations among regular polytopes. The reasons for some of their numeric incidence relations are far from obvious. [[W:Pieter Hendrik Schoute|Schoute]] was the first to see that the 120-point (600-cell) is a compound of 5 24-point (24-cells) ''10 different ways'', and after he saw it a hundred years lapsed until Denney, Hooker, Johnson, Robinson, Butler &amp; Claiborne proved his result, and showed why.{{Sfn|Denney, Hooker, Johnson, Robinson, Butler &amp; Claiborne|2020|loc=''The geometry of H4 polytopes''}}

So much for the compounds of 16-cells. The 120-cell is also the convex hull of the compound of 120 disjoint regular 5-cells. That stellated compound (without its convex hull of 120-cell edges) is the [[w:Great_grand_stellated_120-cell|great grand stellated 120-cell]] illustrated above, the final regular [[W:Stellation|stellation]] of the 120-cell, and the only [[W:Schläfli-Hess polychoron|regular star 4-polytope]] to have the 120-cell for its convex hull. The edges of the great grand stellated 120-cell are &lt;math&gt;\phi^6&lt;/math&gt; as long as those of its 120-cell [[W:List of polyhedral stellations#Stellation process|stellation core]] deep inside.

The compound of 120 disjoint 5-point (5-cells) can be seen to be equivalent to the compound of 5 disjoint 120-point (600-cells), as follows. Beginning with a single 120-point (600-cell), expand each vertex into a regular 5-cell, by adding 4 new equidistant vertices, such that the 5 vertices form a regular 5-cell inscribed in the 3-sphere. The 120 5-cells are disjoint, and the 600 vertices form 5 disjoint 120-point (600-cells): a 120-cell.

== Thirty distinguished distances ==
The 30 numbers listed in the table are all-important in Euclidean geometry. A case can be made on symmetry grounds that their squares are the 30 most important numbers between 0 and 4. The 30 rows of the table are the 30 distinct [[120-cell#Geodesic rectangles|chord lengths of the unit-radius 120-cell]], the largest regular convex 4-polytope. Since the 120-cell subsumes all smaller regular polytopes, its 30 chords are the complete chord set of all the regular polytopes that can be constructed in the first four dimensions of Euclidean space, except for regular polygons of more than 15 sides.

{| class=&quot;wikitable&quot; style=&quot;white-space:nowrap;text-align:center&quot;
!rowspan=2|&lt;math&gt;c_t&lt;/math&gt;
!rowspan=2|arc
!rowspan=2|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{n}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
!rowspan=2|&lt;math&gt;\left\{p\right\}&lt;/math&gt;
!rowspan=2|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;m\left\{\frac{k}{d}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
!rowspan=2|Steinbach roots
!colspan=7|Chord lengths of the unit 120-cell
|-
!colspan=5|unit-radius length &lt;math&gt;c_t&lt;/math&gt;
!colspan=2|unit-edge length &lt;math&gt;c_t/c_1&lt;/math&gt;&lt;br&gt;in 120-cell of radius &lt;math&gt;c_8=\sqrt{2}\phi^2&lt;/math&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{1,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;15.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{30\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{30\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{4,1}-c_{2,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{7-3 \sqrt{5}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.270091&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\sqrt{2} \phi ^2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2 \phi ^4}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.072949}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{2,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;25.2{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{2}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2 \left\{15\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \left(c_{18,1}-c_{4,1}\right)&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{3-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.437016&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\sqrt{2} \phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2 \phi ^2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.190983}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi &lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.61803&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{3,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;36{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{3}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{10\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;3 \left\{\frac{10}{3}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \left(\sqrt{5}-1\right) c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \left(\sqrt{5}-1\right)&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.618034&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{\phi ^2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.381966}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2} \phi &lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2.28825&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{4,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;41.4{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{60}{7}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{c_{8,1}}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.707107&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2.61803&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{5,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;44.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{4}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2 \left\{\frac{15}{2}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3} c_{2,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{9-3 \sqrt{5}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.756934&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}}}{\phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2 \phi ^2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.572949}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3} \phi &lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2.80252&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{6,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;49.1{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{120}{17}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{5-\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{5-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.831254&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\frac{1}{\phi }}}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{\sqrt{5}}{2 \phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.690983}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\phi ^3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;3.07768&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{7,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;56.0{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{20}{3}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}-\frac{1}{\phi }} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}-\frac{2}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.93913&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{\frac{\psi }{\phi }}}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{\psi }{2 \phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.881966}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\psi  \phi ^3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;3.47709&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;60{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{5}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{6\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{6\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;3.70246&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{9,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;66.1{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{40}{7}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}-\frac{1}{2 \phi }} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}-\frac{1}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.09132&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{\frac{\chi }{\phi }}}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{\chi }{2 \phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.19098}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\chi  \phi ^3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;4.04057&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{10,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;69.8{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{60}{11}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi  c_{4,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1+\sqrt{5}}{2 \sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.14412&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\phi }{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{\phi ^2}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.30902}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^3&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;4.23607&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{11,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;72{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{6}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{5\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{5\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\frac{1}{\phi }} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\frac{2}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.17557&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3-\phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3-\phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.38197}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2} \sqrt{3-\phi } \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;4.3525&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{12,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;75.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{24}{5}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.22474&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;4.53457&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{13,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;81.1{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{60}{13}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{9-\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{9-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.30038&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{9-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{4} \left(9-\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.69098}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2} \left(9-\sqrt{5}\right)} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;4.8146&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{14,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;84.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{40}{9}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\phi } c_{8,1}}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{1+\sqrt{5}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.345&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\phi }}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{\sqrt{5} \phi }{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.80902}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\phi ^5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;4.9798&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{15,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;90.0{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{7}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{4\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{4\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2 c_{4,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.41421&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2 \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;5.23607&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{16,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;95.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{120}{29}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{11-\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{11-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.4802&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{11-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{4} \left(11-\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.19098}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2} \left(11-\sqrt{5}\right)} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;5.48037&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{17,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;98.9{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{120}{31}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{7+\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{7+\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.51954&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{7+\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{4} \left(7+\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.30902}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\psi  \phi ^5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;5.62605&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{18,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;104.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{8}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{15}{4}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.58114&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{5} \sqrt{\phi ^4}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;5.8541&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{19,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;108.0{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{9}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{10}{3}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{3,1}+c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \left(1+\sqrt{5}\right)&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.61803&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi &lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1+\phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.61803}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2} \phi ^3&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;5.9907&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{20,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;110.2{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{120}{7}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{13-\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{13-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.64042&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{13-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{4} \left(13-\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.69098}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2 \sqrt{8-\phi ^2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.07359&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{21,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;113.9{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{60}{19}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}+\frac{1}{1+\sqrt{5}}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}+\frac{1}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.67601&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}+\frac{1}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}+\frac{1}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.80902}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2 \sqrt{8-\frac{\chi }{\phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.20537&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{22,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;120{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{10}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{3\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{3\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.73205&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{6} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.41285&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{23,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;124.0{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{120}{41}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{\phi }+\frac{5}{2}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}+\frac{2}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.7658&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{4-\frac{\psi }{2 \phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{4-\frac{\psi }{2 \phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.11803}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\chi  \phi ^5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.53779&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{24,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;130.9{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{20}{7}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{11+\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{11+\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.81907&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{11+\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{4} \left(11+\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.30902}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2 \sqrt{8-\frac{\sqrt{5}}{\phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.73503&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{25,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;135.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{11}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{11}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{7+3 \sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{7+3 \sqrt{5}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.85123&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\phi ^2}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{\phi ^4}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.42705}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^4&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.8541&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{26,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;138.6{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{12}{5}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{7}{2}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{7}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.87083&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{7}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{7}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{7} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.92667&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{27,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;144{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{12}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{5}{2}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2} \left(5+\sqrt{5}\right)} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2} \left(5+\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.90211&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\phi +2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2+\phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.61803}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2 \sqrt{2 \phi +4}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;7.0425&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{28,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;154.8{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{13}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{13}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{13+\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{13+\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.95167&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{13+\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{4} \left(13+\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.80902}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2 \sqrt{8-\frac{1}{\phi ^2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;7.22598&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{29,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;164.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{14}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{15}{7}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi  c_{12,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{\frac{3}{2}} \left(1+\sqrt{5}\right)&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.98168&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}} \phi &lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3 \phi ^2}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.92705}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3} \phi ^3&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;7.33708&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{30,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;180{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{15}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{2\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{2\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2 c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2.&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{4}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{4.}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2 \sqrt{2} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;7.40492&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|rowspan=4 colspan=6|
|rowspan=4 colspan=4|
&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; is the golden ratio:&lt;br&gt;
&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2-\phi -1=0&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;&lt;br&gt;
&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\phi }+1=\phi&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;, and: &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi+1=\phi^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;&lt;br&gt;
&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\phi }::1::\phi ::\phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;&lt;br&gt;
&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1/\phi&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; and &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; are the golden sections of &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;:&lt;br&gt;
&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi +\frac{1}{\phi }=\sqrt{5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|colspan=2|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi = (\sqrt{5} + 1)/2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.618034&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|colspan=2|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\chi = (3\sqrt{5} + 1)/2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;3.854102&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|colspan=2|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\psi = (3\sqrt{5} - 1)/2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2.854102&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|colspan=2|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\psi = 11/\chi = 22/(3\sqrt{5} + 1)&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2.854102&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|}

...

== The 8-point regular polytopes ==
In 2-space we have the regular 8-point octagon, in 3-space the regular 8-point cube, and in 4-space the regular 8-point [[W:16-cell|16-cell]].

A planar octagon with rigid edges of unit length has chords of length:

:&lt;math&gt;r_1=1,r_2=\sqrt{2+\sqrt{2}} \approx 1.84776,r_3=1+\sqrt{2} \approx 2.41421,r_4=\sqrt{4 + \sqrt{8}} \approx 2.61313&lt;/math&gt;

The chord ratio &lt;math&gt;r_3=1+\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt; is a geometrical proportion, the [[W:Silver ratio|silver ratio]]. Fontaine and Hurley's procedure for obtaining the reciprocal of a chord tells us that:

:&lt;math&gt;r_3-r_1-r_1=1/r_3 \approx 0.41421&lt;/math&gt;

Notice that &lt;math&gt;1/r_3=\sqrt{2}-1=r_3-2&lt;/math&gt;.

If we embed this planar octagon in 3-space, we can make it skew, repositioning its vertices so that each is one unit-edge length distant from three others instead of two others, so we obtain a unit-edge cube with chords of length:

:&lt;math&gt;r_1=1, r_2=\sqrt{2}, r_3=\sqrt{3}, r_4=\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;

If we embed this cube in 4-space, we can skew it some more, repositioning its vertices so that each is one unit-edge length distant from six others instead of three others, so we obtain a unit-edge 4-polytope with chords of length:

:&lt;math&gt;r_1=1,r_2=1,r_3=1,r_4=\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;

All of its chords except its long diameters are the same unit length as its edge. In fact they are its 24 edges, and it is a 16-cell of radius &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1/\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;.

[[File:octagon16cell.png|thumb|Orthogonal projection]] of a regular 16-cell to the [[16-cell#Projections|B&lt;sub&gt;4&lt;/sub&gt; Coxeter plane]]. Only its edges are shown; its long diameter chords are not drawn. All of the 24 edges are the same length. Only the edges of two completely orthogonal squares lie parallel to the view plane.]]

The [[16-cell]] is the [[W:Regular convex 4-polytope|regular convex 4-polytope]] with [[W:Schläfli symbol|Schläfli symbol]] {3,3,4}. It has 8 vertices, 24 edges, 32 equilateral triangle faces, and 16 regular tetrahedron cells. It is the [[16-cell#Octahedral dipyramid|four-dimensional analogue of the octahedron]], and each of its four orthogonal central hyperplanes is an octahedron.

The only planar regular polygons found in the 16-cell are face triangles and central plane squares, but the 16-cell also contains a regular skew octagon, its [[W:Petrie polygon|Petrie polygon]]. The chords of this regular octagon, which lies skew in 4-space, are those given above for the 16-cell, as opposed to those for the cube or the regular octagon in the plane. The 16-cell has 3 such Petrie octagons, which share the same 8 vertices but have disjoint sets of 8 edges each.

The regular octad has higher symmetry in 4-space than it does in 2-space. The 16-cell is the 4-orthoplex, the simplest regular 4-polytope after the [[5-cell|4-simplex]]. All the larger regular 4-polytopes, including the 120-cell, are compounds of the 16-cell. The regular octagon exhibits this high symmetry only when embedded in 4-space at the vertices of the 16-cell.

The 16-cell constitutes an [[W:Orthonormal basis|orthonormal basis]] for the choice of a 4-dimensional Cartesian reference frame, because its vertices define four orthogonal axes. The eight vertices of a unit-radius 16-cell are (±1, 0, 0, 0), (0, ±1, 0, 0), (0, 0, ±1, 0), (0, 0, 0, ±1). All vertices are connected by &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; edges except opposite pairs. In this convenient unit-radius 4-coordinate system, the original planar octagon we started with had chords of length:

:&lt;math&gt;r_1=\sqrt{2},r_2=\sqrt{2(2+\sqrt{2})} \approx 2.61313,r_3=2+\sqrt{2} \approx 3.41421,r_4=2 \sqrt{2+\sqrt{2}} \approx 3.69552&lt;/math&gt;

none of which chords occur in a 16-cell or 120-cell except &lt;math&gt;r_1=\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;. 

In the unit-radius 120-cell, the great square edge chord &lt;math&gt;c_{15} = \sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt; occurs in 675 distinct (75 disjoint) 16-cells. The vertex coordinates of each 16-cell form 6 central squares lying in 6 pairwise [[W:Orthogonal|orthogonal]] coordinate planes. Great squares in ''opposite'' planes that do not share an axis (e.g. in the ''xy'' and ''wz'' planes) are completely disjoint (they do not intersect at any vertices). These planes are [[W:Completely orthogonal|completely orthogonal]].{{Efn|name=Six orthogonal planes of the Cartesian basis}}

[[W:Rotations in 4-dimensional Euclidean space|Rotations in 4-dimensional Euclidean space]] can be seen as the composition of two 2-dimensional rotations in completely orthogonal planes. The general rotation in 4-space is a double rotation in pairs of completely orthogonal planes. Two completely orthogonal planes are called invariant planes of the rotation when all points in the plane rotate on circles that remain in the plane, even as the whole plane tilts sideways (like a coin flipping) into another plane. The two completely orthogonal rotations of each plane (like a wheel, and like a coin flipping) are simultaneous but independent, in that they are not geometrically constrained to turn at the same rate. However, the most circular kind of rotation (as opposed to an elliptical double rotation of a rigid spherical object) occurs when the invariant planes do rotate through the same angle in the same time interval. Such equi-angled double rotations are called [[w:SO(4)#Isoclinic_rotations|isoclinic]], also [[w:William_Kingdon_Clifford|Clifford]] displacements.

The 16-cell is the simplest possible frame in which to [[16-cell#Rotations|observe 4-dimensional rotations]] because its characteristic isoclinic rotations feature a single pair of invariant rotation planes. In the 16-cell an isoclinic rotation by 90° in any pair of invariant completely orthogonal square central planes takes every square central plane to its completely orthogonal square central plane, and takes every vertex to its antipodal vertex 180° degrees away. All the vertices move at once, displaced 180° in 8 orthogonal directions, and the rigid 16-cell assumes a new orientation in 4-space. The trajectory of each vertex is a one-eighth segment of its [[W:Geodesic|geodesic]] orbit. Its entire orbit traces a circular helix in 4-space, and also traces a great circle in one of the two completely orthogonal invariant rotation planes, as they tilt sideways into each other's plane. When the isoclinic rotation is continued in the same rotational direction through an additional 90°, each vertex is again displaced 180° to its antipodal position, but from the new orientation where the vertex is on the opposite side of the 16-cell departing in the opposite direction. In the course of a 720° isoclinic rotation each vertex departs from all 8 vertex positions just once, and returns to its original position.

== Hypercubes ==
The long diameter of the unit-edge [[W:Hypercube|hypercube]] of dimension &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;n&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; is &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{n}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;, so the unit-edge [[w:Tesseract|4-hypercube, the 16-point (8-cell) tesseract,]] has chords:
:&lt;math&gt;r_1=\sqrt{1},r_2=\sqrt{2},r_3=\sqrt{3},r_4=\sqrt{4}&lt;/math&gt;
Uniquely in its 4-dimensional case, the hypercube's edge length equals its radius, like the hexagon. We call such polytopes ''radially equilateral'', because they can be constructed from equilateral triangles which meet at their center, each contributing two radii and an edge. The cuboctahedron and the 24-cell are also radially equilateral.

The [[W:Tesseract|tesseract]] is the [[W:Regular convex 4-polytope|regular convex 4-polytope]] with [[W:Schläfli symbol|Schläfli symbol]] {4,3,3}. It has 16 vertices, 32 edges, 24 square faces, and 8 cube cells. It is the four-dimensional analogue of the cube.

The tesseract is the [[W:Dual polytope|dual polytope]] of the 16-cell. They have the same Petrie polygon, the regular octagon, but the tesseract contains 2 disjoint instances and 4 distinct instances of the skew octagon. We can construct the tesseract the way we constructed the 16-cell, by skewing a planar octagon's edges so they become edges of the 4-polytope. Because the tesseract has 16 vertices we will need two planar octagons, and to start we must embedded them in 4-space as completely orthogonal planes that intersect at only one point, their common center. Because the tesseract is radially equilateral (unlike the 16-cell), to build a unit-radius tesseract we start with our original octagon of unit-edge length, rather than the octagon of edge length &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; that we needed to build the unit-radius 16-cell.

For our tesseract construction we skew each planar octagon into a cube, so we have a compound of two completely orthogonal cubes. Provided the planes were completely orthogonal in 4-space and we skewed them both the same way, the 16 vertices will be the vertices of a tesseract with half of its 32 edges missing.

The 16-point tesseract is the convex hull of a compound of two 8-point 16-cells, in exact dimensional analogy to the way the 8-point cube is the convex hull of a [[W:Stellated octahedron|compound of two regular 4-point tetrahedra]]. The [[W:Demihypercube|demihypercubes]] occupy alternate vertices of the hypercubes. The diagonals of the square faces of the unit-radius tesseract are the &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; edges of two unit-radius 16-cells, which are also the edges of the square central planes.

Because the tesseract contains two 16-cells in alternate positions it has two sets of 6 orthogonal square central planes. Two angles are required to specify the relationship between two planes in 4-space. Pairs of planes within each 16-cell are 90° apart in one angle, and either 0° or 90° apart in the other angle. They are 90° apart in both angles if and only if they are completely orthogonal planes, 90° apart by isoclinic rotation, with no vertices in common and their corresponding vertices 180° apart. Otherwise they are 0° apart in one of the angles, 90° apart by simple rotation with their corresponding vertices 90° apart, and they intersect in one axis and lie in a common 3-dimensional hyperplane.{{Efn|A double rotation in which one of the two angles of rotation is 0°, so that one of the completely orthogonal invariant planes does not rotate, is called a simple rotation. Ordinary rotations observed in a 3-dimensional space are simple rotations.}}

A pair of square central planes from alternate 16-cells are 60° apart by isoclinic rotation, with their corresponding vertices 120° apart. The planes are not orthogonal or parallel, so they intersect in a line somewhere, but they have no vertices in common, they have no 3-dimensional hyperplane in common, and they cannot reach each other by simple rotation. Such pairs of objects are called [[W:Clifford parallel|Clifford parallel]] because all their corresponding pairs of vertices are the same distance apart, although they are not parallel in the usual sense, because they have a common center. Not only the alternate 16-cells' corresponding square central planes, but also the 16-cells themselves, are Clifford parallel objects.

We can rotate the tesseract isoclinically the way we rotated the 16-cell, by 90° in two completely orthogonal invariant square central planes, with the same effect on both alternate 16-cells. In the course of a 720° isoclinic rotation in invariant square central planes each vertex departs from all 8 vertex positions of its 16-cell just once and returns to its original position, but it does not visit the vertex positions of the other 16-cell. The skew octagon geodesic orbits of the 16 vertices are disjoint circular helixes, and those 16 circular helixes are Clifford parallel objects.

== The 24-cell ==
In 2-space we have the radially equilateral 6-point hexagon. In 3-space we have the radially equilateral 12-point cuboctahedron, with 4 hexagonal central planes. In 4-space we have the radially equilateral 24-point 24-cell, with 4 cuboctahedral central hyperplanes and 16 hexagonal central planes.

Great hexagons are a rounder choice than great squares for the invariant rotation planes in which to rotate a 4-polytope isoclinically. The complete hexagonal isoclinic revolution requires 720° like the complete square isoclinic revolution, but it is completed in 6 chordal steps of 120° each rather than 8 chordal steps of 180° each.

...

== The 600-cell ==

...

== Finally the 120-cell ==

...

== Conclusions ==

Fontaine and Hurley's discovery is more than a formula for the reciprocal of a regular ''n''-polygon diagonal. It also yields the discrete sequence of isocline chords of the distinct isoclinic rotation characteristic of a ''d''-dimensional regular polytope. The characteristic rotational chord sequence of the ''d''-polytope can be represented geometrically in two dimensions on a distinct star polygon, but it lies on a geodesic circle through ''d''-dimensional space. Fontaine and Hurley discovered the geodesic topology of polytopes generally. Their procedure will reveal the geodesics of arbitrary non-uniform polytopes, since it can be applied to a polytope of any dimensionality and irregularity, by first fitting the polytope to the smallest regular polygon whose chords include its chords.

Fontaine and Hurley's discovery of a chordal formula for isoclinic rotations closes the circuit on Kappraff and Adamson's discovery of a rotational connection between dynamical systems, Steinbach's golden fields, and Coxeter's Euclidean geometry of ''n'' dimensions. Application of the Fontaine and Hurley procedure in higher-dimensional spaces demonstrates why the connection exists: because polytope sequences generally, from Steinbach's golden polygon chord sequences, to chord sequences in isoclinic rotation helixes, to subsumption relations in the sequence of regular 4-polytopes, arise as expressions of the reflections and rotations of distinct Coxeter symmetry groups, when those various groups interact.

== Appendix: Sequence of regular 4-polytopes ==
{{Regular convex 4-polytopes|wiki=W:|columns=7}}

== Notes ==
{{Notelist}}

== Citations ==
{{Reflist}}

== References ==
{{Refbegin}}
* {{Cite journal | last=Steinbach | first=Peter | year=1997 | title=Golden fields: A case for the Heptagon | journal=Mathematics Magazine | volume=70 | issue=Feb 1997 | pages=22–31 | doi=10.1080/0025570X.1997.11996494 | jstor=2691048 | ref={{SfnRef|Steinbach|1997}} }}
* {{Cite journal | last=Steinbach | first=Peter | year=2000 | title=Sections Beyond Golden| journal=Bridges: Mathematical Connections in Art, Music and Science | issue=2000 | pages=35-44 | url=https://archive.bridgesmathart.org/2000/bridges2000-35.pdf | ref={{SfnRef|Steinbach|2000}}}}
* {{Cite journal | last1=Kappraff | first1=Jay | last2=Jablan | first2=Slavik | last3=Adamson | first3=Gary | last4=Sazdanovich | first4=Radmila | year=2004 | title=Golden Fields, Generalized Fibonacci Sequences, and Chaotic Matrices | journal=Forma | volume=19 | pages=367-387 | url=https://archive.bridgesmathart.org/2005/bridges2005-369.pdf | ref={{SfnRef|Kappraff, Jablan, Adamson &amp; Sazdanovich|2004}} }}
* {{Cite journal | last1=Kappraff | first1=Jay | last2=Adamson | first2=Gary | year=2004 | title=Polygons and Chaos | journal=Dynamical Systems and Geometric Theories | url=https://archive.bridgesmathart.org/2001/bridges2001-67.pdf | ref={{SfnRef|Kappraff &amp; Adamson|2004}} }}
* {{Cite journal | last1=Fontaine | first1=Anne | last2=Hurley | first2=Susan | year=2006 | title=Proof by Picture: Products and Reciprocals of Diagonal Length Ratios in the Regular Polygon | journal=Forum Geometricorum | volume=6 | pages=97-101 | url=https://scispace.com/pdf/proof-by-picture-products-and-reciprocals-of-diagonal-length-1aian8mgp9.pdf }}
{{Refend}}</text>
      <sha1>lrjyra3sj00jr3zmd15206fwjw7g16u</sha1>
    </revision>
    <revision>
      <id>2808083</id>
      <parentid>2808082</parentid>
      <timestamp>2026-05-09T17:15:30Z</timestamp>
      <contributor>
        <username>Dc.samizdat</username>
        <id>2856930</id>
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      <comment>/* The 8-point regular polytopes */</comment>
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      <text bytes="45815" sha1="nhpm9hvrcqnqy8t16xksnvw7oixsx7r" xml:space="preserve">{{align|center|David Brooks Christie}}
{{align|center|dc@samizdat.org}}
{{align|center|Draft in progress}}
{{align|center|January 2026 - April 2026}}

&lt;blockquote&gt;Steinbach discovered the formula for the ratios of diagonal to side in the regular polygons. Fontaine and Hurley extended this result, discovering a formula for the reciprocal of a regular polygon chord derived geometrically from the chord's star polygon. We observe that these findings in plane geometry apply more generally, to polytopes of any dimensionality. Fontaine and Hurley's geometric procedure for finding the reciprocals of the chords of a regular polygon from their star polygons also finds the rotational geodesics of any polytope of any dimensionality.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
== Introduction ==
Steinbach discovered the Diagonal Product Formula and the Golden Fields family of ratios of diagonal to side in the regular polygons. He showed how this family extends beyond the pentagon {5} with its well-known golden bisection proportional to 𝜙, finding that the heptagon {7} has an analogous trisection, the nonagon {9} has an analogous quadrasection, and the hendecagon {11} has an analogous pentasection, an extended family of golden proportions with quasiperiodic properties. 

Kappraff and Adamson extended these findings in plane geometry to a theory of Generalized Fibonacci Sequences, showing that the Golden Fields not only do not end with the hendecagon, they form an infinite number of periodic trajectories when operated on by the Mandelbrot operator. They found a relation between the edges of star polygons and dynamical systems in the state of chaos, revealing a connection between chaos theory, number, and rotations in Coxeter Euclidean geometry. 

Fontaine and Hurley examined Steinbach's finding that the length of each chord of a regular polygon is both the product of two chords and the sum of a set of smaller chords, so that in rotations to add is to multiply. They illustrated Steinbach's sets of additive chords lying parallel to each other in the plane (pointing in the same direction), and by applying Steinbach's formula more generally they found another summation relation of signed parallel chords (pointing in opposite directions) which relates each chord length to its reciprocal, and relates the summation to a distinct star polygon rotation. 

We examine these remarkable findings (which stem from study of the chords of humble regular polygons) in higher-dimensional spaces, specifically in the chords, polygons and rotations of the [[120-cell]], the largest four-dimensional regular convex polytope.

== Visualizing the 120-cell ==
{| class=&quot;wikitable floatright&quot; width=&quot;400&quot;
|style=&quot;vertical-align:top&quot;|[[File:120-cell.gif|200px]]&lt;br&gt;Orthographic projection of the 600-point 120-cell &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\{5,3,3\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; performing a [[W:SO(4)#Geometry of 4D rotations|simple rotation]].{{Sfn|Hise|2011|loc=File:120-cell.gif|ps=; &quot;Created by Jason Hise with Maya and Macromedia Fireworks. A 3D projection of a 120-cell performing a [[W:SO(4)#Geometry of 4D rotations|simple rotation]].&quot;}} In this simplified rendering only the 120-cell's own edges are shown; its 29 interior chords are not rendered. Therefore even though it is translucent, only its outer surface is visible. The complex interior parts of the 120-cell, all its inscribed 5-cells, 16-cells, 8-cells, 24-cells, 600-cells and its much larger inventory of polyhedra, are completely invisible in this view, as none of their edges are rendered at all.
|style=&quot;vertical-align:top&quot;|[[File:Ortho solid 016-uniform polychoron p33-t0.png|200px]]&lt;br&gt;Orthographic projection of the 600-point [[W:Great grand stellated 120-cell|great grand stellated 120-cell]] &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\{\tfrac{5}{2},3,3\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;.{{Sfn|Ruen: Great grand stellated 120-cell|2007}} The 120-cell is its convex hull. The projection to the left renders only the 120-cell's shortest chord, its 1200 edges. The projection above also renders only one of the 120-cell's 30 chords, the edges of its 120 inscribed regular 5-cells. The 120-cell itself (the convex hull) is invisible in this view, as its edges are not rendered.
|}

[[120-cell#Geometry|The 120-cell is the maximally complex regular 4-polytope]], containing inscribed instances of every regular 1-, 2-, 3-, and 4-polytope, except the regular polygons of more than {15} sides. 

The 120-cell is the convex hull of a regular [[120-cell#Relationships among interior polytopes|compound of each of the 6 regular convex 4-polytopes]]. They are the [[5-cell|5-point (5-cell) 4-simplex]], the [[16-cell|8-point (16-cell) 4-orthoplex]], the [[W:Tesseract|16-point (8-cell) tesseract]], the [[24-cell|24-point (24-cell)]], the [[600-cell|120-point (600-cell)]], and the [[120-cell|600-point (120-cell)]]. The 120-cell is the convex hull of a compound of 120 disjoint regular 5-cells, of 75 disjoint 16-cells, of 25 disjoint 24-cells, and of 5 disjoint 600-cells.

The 120-cell contains an even larger inventory of irregular polytopes, created by the intersection of multiple instances of these component regular 4-polytopes. Many are quite unexpected, because they do not occur as components of any regular polytope smaller than the 120-cell. As just one example among the [[120-cell#Concentric hulls|sections of the 120-cell]], there is an irregular 24-point polyhedron with 16 triangle faces and 4 nonagon {9} faces.{{Sfn|Moxness|}}

Most renderings of the 120-cell, like the rotating projection here, only illustrate its outer surface, which is a honeycomb of face-bonded dodecahedral cells. Only the objects in its 3-dimensional surface are rendered, namely the 120 dodecahedra, their pentagon faces, and their edges. Although the 120-cell has chords of 30 distinct lengths, in this kind of simplified rendering only the 120-cell's own edges (its shortest chord) are shown. Its 29 interior chords, the edges of objects in the interior of the 120-cell, are not rendered, so interior objects are not visible at all.

Visualizing the complete interior of the 600-vertex 120-cell in a single image is impractical because of its complexity. Only four 120-cell edges are incident at each vertex, but [[120-cell#Chords|600 chords (of all 30 lengths)]] are incident at ''each'' vertex.

== Compounds in the 120-cell ==
The 8-point (16-cell), not the 5-point (5-cell), is the smallest building block; it compounds to every larger regular 4-polytope. The 5-point (5-cell) does compound to the 600-point (120-cell), but it does not fit into any smaller regular 4-polytope. 

The 8-point (16-cell) compounds by 2 in the 16-point (8-cell), and by 3 in the 24-point (24-cell). The 16-point (8-cell) compounds in the 24-point (24-cell) by 3 non-disjoint instances of itself, with each of the 24 vertices shared by two 16-point (8-cells). The 24-point (24-cell) compounds by 5 disjoint instances of itself in the 120-point (600-cell), and the 120-point (600-cell) compounds by 5 disjoint instances of itself in the 600-point (120-cell).

The 24-point (24-cell) also compounds by &lt;math&gt;5^2&lt;/math&gt; non-disjoint instances of itself in the 120-point (600-cell); it compounds in 5 disjoint instances of itself, 10 (not 5) different ways. Whichever set of 5 disjoint 24-point (24-cells) are assembled, the resulting 120-point (600-cell) contains 25 distinct 24-point (24-cells), not just 5 (or 10). This implies that 15 disjoint 8-point (16-cells) will construct a 120-point (600-cell), which will contain 75 distinct 8-point (16-cells). 

The 600-point (120-cell) is 5 disjoint 120-point (600-cells), just 2 different ways (not 5 or 10 ways), so it is 10 distinct 120-point (600-cells). This implies that the 8-point (16-cell) compounds by 3 times &lt;math&gt;5^2&lt;/math&gt; (75) disjoint instances of itself in the 600-point (120-cell), which contains &lt;math&gt;3^2&lt;/math&gt; times  &lt;math&gt;5^2&lt;/math&gt; (225) distinct instances of the 24-point (24-cell), and  &lt;math&gt;3^3&lt;/math&gt; times &lt;math&gt;5^2&lt;/math&gt; (675) distinct instances of the 8-point (16-cell). 

These facts were discovered painstakingly by various researchers, and no one has found a general rule governing subsumption relations among regular polytopes. The reasons for some of their numeric incidence relations are far from obvious. [[W:Pieter Hendrik Schoute|Schoute]] was the first to see that the 120-point (600-cell) is a compound of 5 24-point (24-cells) ''10 different ways'', and after he saw it a hundred years lapsed until Denney, Hooker, Johnson, Robinson, Butler &amp; Claiborne proved his result, and showed why.{{Sfn|Denney, Hooker, Johnson, Robinson, Butler &amp; Claiborne|2020|loc=''The geometry of H4 polytopes''}}

So much for the compounds of 16-cells. The 120-cell is also the convex hull of the compound of 120 disjoint regular 5-cells. That stellated compound (without its convex hull of 120-cell edges) is the [[w:Great_grand_stellated_120-cell|great grand stellated 120-cell]] illustrated above, the final regular [[W:Stellation|stellation]] of the 120-cell, and the only [[W:Schläfli-Hess polychoron|regular star 4-polytope]] to have the 120-cell for its convex hull. The edges of the great grand stellated 120-cell are &lt;math&gt;\phi^6&lt;/math&gt; as long as those of its 120-cell [[W:List of polyhedral stellations#Stellation process|stellation core]] deep inside.

The compound of 120 disjoint 5-point (5-cells) can be seen to be equivalent to the compound of 5 disjoint 120-point (600-cells), as follows. Beginning with a single 120-point (600-cell), expand each vertex into a regular 5-cell, by adding 4 new equidistant vertices, such that the 5 vertices form a regular 5-cell inscribed in the 3-sphere. The 120 5-cells are disjoint, and the 600 vertices form 5 disjoint 120-point (600-cells): a 120-cell.

== Thirty distinguished distances ==
The 30 numbers listed in the table are all-important in Euclidean geometry. A case can be made on symmetry grounds that their squares are the 30 most important numbers between 0 and 4. The 30 rows of the table are the 30 distinct [[120-cell#Geodesic rectangles|chord lengths of the unit-radius 120-cell]], the largest regular convex 4-polytope. Since the 120-cell subsumes all smaller regular polytopes, its 30 chords are the complete chord set of all the regular polytopes that can be constructed in the first four dimensions of Euclidean space, except for regular polygons of more than 15 sides.

{| class=&quot;wikitable&quot; style=&quot;white-space:nowrap;text-align:center&quot;
!rowspan=2|&lt;math&gt;c_t&lt;/math&gt;
!rowspan=2|arc
!rowspan=2|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{n}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
!rowspan=2|&lt;math&gt;\left\{p\right\}&lt;/math&gt;
!rowspan=2|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;m\left\{\frac{k}{d}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
!rowspan=2|Steinbach roots
!colspan=7|Chord lengths of the unit 120-cell
|-
!colspan=5|unit-radius length &lt;math&gt;c_t&lt;/math&gt;
!colspan=2|unit-edge length &lt;math&gt;c_t/c_1&lt;/math&gt;&lt;br&gt;in 120-cell of radius &lt;math&gt;c_8=\sqrt{2}\phi^2&lt;/math&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{1,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;15.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{30\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{30\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{4,1}-c_{2,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{7-3 \sqrt{5}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.270091&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\sqrt{2} \phi ^2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2 \phi ^4}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.072949}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{2,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;25.2{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{2}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2 \left\{15\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \left(c_{18,1}-c_{4,1}\right)&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{3-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.437016&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\sqrt{2} \phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2 \phi ^2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.190983}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi &lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.61803&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{3,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;36{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{3}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{10\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;3 \left\{\frac{10}{3}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \left(\sqrt{5}-1\right) c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \left(\sqrt{5}-1\right)&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.618034&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{\phi ^2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.381966}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2} \phi &lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2.28825&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{4,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;41.4{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{60}{7}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{c_{8,1}}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.707107&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2.61803&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{5,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;44.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{4}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2 \left\{\frac{15}{2}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3} c_{2,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{9-3 \sqrt{5}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.756934&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}}}{\phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2 \phi ^2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.572949}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3} \phi &lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2.80252&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{6,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;49.1{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{120}{17}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{5-\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{5-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.831254&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\frac{1}{\phi }}}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{\sqrt{5}}{2 \phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.690983}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\phi ^3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;3.07768&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{7,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;56.0{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{20}{3}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}-\frac{1}{\phi }} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}-\frac{2}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.93913&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{\frac{\psi }{\phi }}}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{\psi }{2 \phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.881966}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\psi  \phi ^3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;3.47709&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;60{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{5}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{6\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{6\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;3.70246&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{9,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;66.1{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{40}{7}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}-\frac{1}{2 \phi }} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}-\frac{1}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.09132&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{\frac{\chi }{\phi }}}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{\chi }{2 \phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.19098}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\chi  \phi ^3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;4.04057&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{10,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;69.8{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{60}{11}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi  c_{4,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1+\sqrt{5}}{2 \sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.14412&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\phi }{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{\phi ^2}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.30902}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^3&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;4.23607&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{11,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;72{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{6}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{5\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{5\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\frac{1}{\phi }} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\frac{2}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.17557&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3-\phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3-\phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.38197}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2} \sqrt{3-\phi } \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;4.3525&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{12,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;75.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{24}{5}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.22474&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;4.53457&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{13,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;81.1{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{60}{13}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{9-\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{9-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.30038&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{9-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{4} \left(9-\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.69098}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2} \left(9-\sqrt{5}\right)} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;4.8146&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{14,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;84.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{40}{9}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\phi } c_{8,1}}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{1+\sqrt{5}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.345&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\phi }}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{\sqrt{5} \phi }{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.80902}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\phi ^5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;4.9798&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{15,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;90.0{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{7}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{4\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{4\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2 c_{4,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.41421&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2 \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;5.23607&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{16,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;95.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{120}{29}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{11-\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{11-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.4802&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{11-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{4} \left(11-\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.19098}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2} \left(11-\sqrt{5}\right)} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;5.48037&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{17,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;98.9{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{120}{31}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{7+\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{7+\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.51954&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{7+\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{4} \left(7+\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.30902}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\psi  \phi ^5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;5.62605&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{18,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;104.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{8}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{15}{4}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.58114&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{5} \sqrt{\phi ^4}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;5.8541&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{19,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;108.0{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{9}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{10}{3}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{3,1}+c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \left(1+\sqrt{5}\right)&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.61803&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi &lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1+\phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.61803}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2} \phi ^3&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;5.9907&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{20,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;110.2{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{120}{7}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{13-\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{13-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.64042&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{13-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{4} \left(13-\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.69098}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2 \sqrt{8-\phi ^2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.07359&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{21,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;113.9{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{60}{19}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}+\frac{1}{1+\sqrt{5}}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}+\frac{1}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.67601&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}+\frac{1}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}+\frac{1}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.80902}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2 \sqrt{8-\frac{\chi }{\phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.20537&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{22,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;120{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{10}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{3\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{3\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.73205&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{6} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.41285&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{23,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;124.0{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{120}{41}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{\phi }+\frac{5}{2}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}+\frac{2}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.7658&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{4-\frac{\psi }{2 \phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{4-\frac{\psi }{2 \phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.11803}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\chi  \phi ^5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.53779&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{24,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;130.9{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{20}{7}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{11+\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{11+\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.81907&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{11+\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{4} \left(11+\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.30902}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2 \sqrt{8-\frac{\sqrt{5}}{\phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.73503&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{25,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;135.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{11}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{11}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{7+3 \sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{7+3 \sqrt{5}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.85123&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\phi ^2}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{\phi ^4}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.42705}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^4&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.8541&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{26,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;138.6{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{12}{5}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{7}{2}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{7}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.87083&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{7}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{7}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{7} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.92667&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{27,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;144{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{12}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{5}{2}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2} \left(5+\sqrt{5}\right)} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2} \left(5+\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.90211&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\phi +2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2+\phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.61803}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2 \sqrt{2 \phi +4}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;7.0425&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{28,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;154.8{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{13}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{13}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{13+\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{13+\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.95167&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{13+\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{4} \left(13+\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.80902}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2 \sqrt{8-\frac{1}{\phi ^2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;7.22598&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{29,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;164.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{14}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{15}{7}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi  c_{12,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{\frac{3}{2}} \left(1+\sqrt{5}\right)&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.98168&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}} \phi &lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3 \phi ^2}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.92705}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3} \phi ^3&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;7.33708&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{30,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;180{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{15}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{2\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{2\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2 c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2.&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{4}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{4.}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2 \sqrt{2} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;7.40492&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|rowspan=4 colspan=6|
|rowspan=4 colspan=4|
&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; is the golden ratio:&lt;br&gt;
&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2-\phi -1=0&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;&lt;br&gt;
&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\phi }+1=\phi&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;, and: &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi+1=\phi^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;&lt;br&gt;
&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\phi }::1::\phi ::\phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;&lt;br&gt;
&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1/\phi&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; and &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; are the golden sections of &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;:&lt;br&gt;
&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi +\frac{1}{\phi }=\sqrt{5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|colspan=2|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi = (\sqrt{5} + 1)/2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.618034&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|colspan=2|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\chi = (3\sqrt{5} + 1)/2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;3.854102&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|colspan=2|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\psi = (3\sqrt{5} - 1)/2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2.854102&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|colspan=2|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\psi = 11/\chi = 22/(3\sqrt{5} + 1)&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2.854102&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|}

...

== The 8-point regular polytopes ==
In 2-space we have the regular 8-point octagon, in 3-space the regular 8-point cube, and in 4-space the regular 8-point [[W:16-cell|16-cell]].

A planar octagon with rigid edges of unit length has chords of length:

:&lt;math&gt;r_1=1,r_2=\sqrt{2+\sqrt{2}} \approx 1.84776,r_3=1+\sqrt{2} \approx 2.41421,r_4=\sqrt{4 + \sqrt{8}} \approx 2.61313&lt;/math&gt;

The chord ratio &lt;math&gt;r_3=1+\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt; is a geometrical proportion, the [[W:Silver ratio|silver ratio]]. Fontaine and Hurley's procedure for obtaining the reciprocal of a chord tells us that:

:&lt;math&gt;r_3-r_1-r_1=1/r_3 \approx 0.41421&lt;/math&gt;

Notice that &lt;math&gt;1/r_3=\sqrt{2}-1=r_3-2&lt;/math&gt;.

If we embed this planar octagon in 3-space, we can make it skew, repositioning its vertices so that each is one unit-edge length distant from three others instead of two others, so we obtain a unit-edge cube with chords of length:

:&lt;math&gt;r_1=1, r_2=\sqrt{2}, r_3=\sqrt{3}, r_4=\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;

If we embed this cube in 4-space, we can skew it some more, repositioning its vertices so that each is one unit-edge length distant from six others instead of three others, so we obtain a unit-edge 4-polytope with chords of length:

:&lt;math&gt;r_1=1,r_2=1,r_3=1,r_4=\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;

All of its chords except its long diameters are the same unit length as its edge. In fact they are its 24 edges, and it is a 16-cell of radius &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1/\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;.

[[File:octagon16cell.png|thumb|Orthogonal projection of a regular 16-cell to the [[16-cell#Projections|B&lt;sub&gt;4&lt;/sub&gt; Coxeter plane]]. Only its edges are shown; its long diameter chords are not drawn. All of the 24 edges are the same length. Only the edges of two completely orthogonal squares lie parallel to the view plane.]]

The [[16-cell]] is the [[W:Regular convex 4-polytope|regular convex 4-polytope]] with [[W:Schläfli symbol|Schläfli symbol]] {3,3,4}. It has 8 vertices, 24 edges, 32 equilateral triangle faces, and 16 regular tetrahedron cells. It is the [[16-cell#Octahedral dipyramid|four-dimensional analogue of the octahedron]], and each of its four orthogonal central hyperplanes is an octahedron.

The only planar regular polygons found in the 16-cell are face triangles and central plane squares, but the 16-cell also contains a regular skew octagon, its [[W:Petrie polygon|Petrie polygon]]. The chords of this regular octagon, which lies skew in 4-space, are those given above for the 16-cell, as opposed to those for the cube or the regular octagon in the plane. The 16-cell has 3 such Petrie octagons, which share the same 8 vertices but have disjoint sets of 8 edges each.

The regular octad has higher symmetry in 4-space than it does in 2-space. The 16-cell is the 4-orthoplex, the simplest regular 4-polytope after the [[5-cell|4-simplex]]. All the larger regular 4-polytopes, including the 120-cell, are compounds of the 16-cell. The regular octagon exhibits this high symmetry only when embedded in 4-space at the vertices of the 16-cell.

The 16-cell constitutes an [[W:Orthonormal basis|orthonormal basis]] for the choice of a 4-dimensional Cartesian reference frame, because its vertices define four orthogonal axes. The eight vertices of a unit-radius 16-cell are (±1, 0, 0, 0), (0, ±1, 0, 0), (0, 0, ±1, 0), (0, 0, 0, ±1). All vertices are connected by &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; edges except opposite pairs. In this convenient unit-radius 4-coordinate system, the original planar octagon we started with had chords of length:

:&lt;math&gt;r_1=\sqrt{2},r_2=\sqrt{2(2+\sqrt{2})} \approx 2.61313,r_3=2+\sqrt{2} \approx 3.41421,r_4=2 \sqrt{2+\sqrt{2}} \approx 3.69552&lt;/math&gt;

none of which chords occur in a 16-cell or 120-cell except &lt;math&gt;r_1=\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;. 

In the unit-radius 120-cell, the great square edge chord &lt;math&gt;c_{15} = \sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt; occurs in 675 distinct (75 disjoint) 16-cells. The vertex coordinates of each 16-cell form 6 central squares lying in 6 pairwise [[W:Orthogonal|orthogonal]] coordinate planes. Great squares in ''opposite'' planes that do not share an axis (e.g. in the ''xy'' and ''wz'' planes) are completely disjoint (they do not intersect at any vertices). These planes are [[W:Completely orthogonal|completely orthogonal]].{{Efn|name=Six orthogonal planes of the Cartesian basis}}

[[W:Rotations in 4-dimensional Euclidean space|Rotations in 4-dimensional Euclidean space]] can be seen as the composition of two 2-dimensional rotations in completely orthogonal planes. The general rotation in 4-space is a double rotation in pairs of completely orthogonal planes. Two completely orthogonal planes are called invariant planes of the rotation when all points in the plane rotate on circles that remain in the plane, even as the whole plane tilts sideways (like a coin flipping) into another plane. The two completely orthogonal rotations of each plane (like a wheel, and like a coin flipping) are simultaneous but independent, in that they are not geometrically constrained to turn at the same rate. However, the most circular kind of rotation (as opposed to an elliptical double rotation of a rigid spherical object) occurs when the invariant planes do rotate through the same angle in the same time interval. Such equi-angled double rotations are called [[w:SO(4)#Isoclinic_rotations|isoclinic]], also [[w:William_Kingdon_Clifford|Clifford]] displacements.

The 16-cell is the simplest possible frame in which to [[16-cell#Rotations|observe 4-dimensional rotations]] because its characteristic isoclinic rotations feature a single pair of invariant rotation planes. In the 16-cell an isoclinic rotation by 90° in any pair of invariant completely orthogonal square central planes takes every square central plane to its completely orthogonal square central plane, and takes every vertex to its antipodal vertex 180° degrees away. All the vertices move at once, displaced 180° in 8 orthogonal directions, and the rigid 16-cell assumes a new orientation in 4-space. The trajectory of each vertex is a one-eighth segment of its [[W:Geodesic|geodesic]] orbit. Its entire orbit traces a circular helix in 4-space, and also traces a great circle in one of the two completely orthogonal invariant rotation planes, as they tilt sideways into each other's plane. When the isoclinic rotation is continued in the same rotational direction through an additional 90°, each vertex is again displaced 180° to its antipodal position, but from the new orientation where the vertex is on the opposite side of the 16-cell departing in the opposite direction. In the course of a 720° isoclinic rotation each vertex departs from all 8 vertex positions just once, and returns to its original position.

== Hypercubes ==
The long diameter of the unit-edge [[W:Hypercube|hypercube]] of dimension &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;n&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; is &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{n}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;, so the unit-edge [[w:Tesseract|4-hypercube, the 16-point (8-cell) tesseract,]] has chords:
:&lt;math&gt;r_1=\sqrt{1},r_2=\sqrt{2},r_3=\sqrt{3},r_4=\sqrt{4}&lt;/math&gt;
Uniquely in its 4-dimensional case, the hypercube's edge length equals its radius, like the hexagon. We call such polytopes ''radially equilateral'', because they can be constructed from equilateral triangles which meet at their center, each contributing two radii and an edge. The cuboctahedron and the 24-cell are also radially equilateral.

The [[W:Tesseract|tesseract]] is the [[W:Regular convex 4-polytope|regular convex 4-polytope]] with [[W:Schläfli symbol|Schläfli symbol]] {4,3,3}. It has 16 vertices, 32 edges, 24 square faces, and 8 cube cells. It is the four-dimensional analogue of the cube.

The tesseract is the [[W:Dual polytope|dual polytope]] of the 16-cell. They have the same Petrie polygon, the regular octagon, but the tesseract contains 2 disjoint instances and 4 distinct instances of the skew octagon. We can construct the tesseract the way we constructed the 16-cell, by skewing a planar octagon's edges so they become edges of the 4-polytope. Because the tesseract has 16 vertices we will need two planar octagons, and to start we must embedded them in 4-space as completely orthogonal planes that intersect at only one point, their common center. Because the tesseract is radially equilateral (unlike the 16-cell), to build a unit-radius tesseract we start with our original octagon of unit-edge length, rather than the octagon of edge length &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; that we needed to build the unit-radius 16-cell.

For our tesseract construction we skew each planar octagon into a cube, so we have a compound of two completely orthogonal cubes. Provided the planes were completely orthogonal in 4-space and we skewed them both the same way, the 16 vertices will be the vertices of a tesseract with half of its 32 edges missing.

The 16-point tesseract is the convex hull of a compound of two 8-point 16-cells, in exact dimensional analogy to the way the 8-point cube is the convex hull of a [[W:Stellated octahedron|compound of two regular 4-point tetrahedra]]. The [[W:Demihypercube|demihypercubes]] occupy alternate vertices of the hypercubes. The diagonals of the square faces of the unit-radius tesseract are the &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; edges of two unit-radius 16-cells, which are also the edges of the square central planes.

Because the tesseract contains two 16-cells in alternate positions it has two sets of 6 orthogonal square central planes. Two angles are required to specify the relationship between two planes in 4-space. Pairs of planes within each 16-cell are 90° apart in one angle, and either 0° or 90° apart in the other angle. They are 90° apart in both angles if and only if they are completely orthogonal planes, 90° apart by isoclinic rotation, with no vertices in common and their corresponding vertices 180° apart. Otherwise they are 0° apart in one of the angles, 90° apart by simple rotation with their corresponding vertices 90° apart, and they intersect in one axis and lie in a common 3-dimensional hyperplane.{{Efn|A double rotation in which one of the two angles of rotation is 0°, so that one of the completely orthogonal invariant planes does not rotate, is called a simple rotation. Ordinary rotations observed in a 3-dimensional space are simple rotations.}}

A pair of square central planes from alternate 16-cells are 60° apart by isoclinic rotation, with their corresponding vertices 120° apart. The planes are not orthogonal or parallel, so they intersect in a line somewhere, but they have no vertices in common, they have no 3-dimensional hyperplane in common, and they cannot reach each other by simple rotation. Such pairs of objects are called [[W:Clifford parallel|Clifford parallel]] because all their corresponding pairs of vertices are the same distance apart, although they are not parallel in the usual sense, because they have a common center. Not only the alternate 16-cells' corresponding square central planes, but also the 16-cells themselves, are Clifford parallel objects.

We can rotate the tesseract isoclinically the way we rotated the 16-cell, by 90° in two completely orthogonal invariant square central planes, with the same effect on both alternate 16-cells. In the course of a 720° isoclinic rotation in invariant square central planes each vertex departs from all 8 vertex positions of its 16-cell just once and returns to its original position, but it does not visit the vertex positions of the other 16-cell. The skew octagon geodesic orbits of the 16 vertices are disjoint circular helixes, and those 16 circular helixes are Clifford parallel objects.

== The 24-cell ==
In 2-space we have the radially equilateral 6-point hexagon. In 3-space we have the radially equilateral 12-point cuboctahedron, with 4 hexagonal central planes. In 4-space we have the radially equilateral 24-point 24-cell, with 4 cuboctahedral central hyperplanes and 16 hexagonal central planes.

Great hexagons are a rounder choice than great squares for the invariant rotation planes in which to rotate a 4-polytope isoclinically. The complete hexagonal isoclinic revolution requires 720° like the complete square isoclinic revolution, but it is completed in 6 chordal steps of 120° each rather than 8 chordal steps of 180° each.

...

== The 600-cell ==

...

== Finally the 120-cell ==

...

== Conclusions ==

Fontaine and Hurley's discovery is more than a formula for the reciprocal of a regular ''n''-polygon diagonal. It also yields the discrete sequence of isocline chords of the distinct isoclinic rotation characteristic of a ''d''-dimensional regular polytope. The characteristic rotational chord sequence of the ''d''-polytope can be represented geometrically in two dimensions on a distinct star polygon, but it lies on a geodesic circle through ''d''-dimensional space. Fontaine and Hurley discovered the geodesic topology of polytopes generally. Their procedure will reveal the geodesics of arbitrary non-uniform polytopes, since it can be applied to a polytope of any dimensionality and irregularity, by first fitting the polytope to the smallest regular polygon whose chords include its chords.

Fontaine and Hurley's discovery of a chordal formula for isoclinic rotations closes the circuit on Kappraff and Adamson's discovery of a rotational connection between dynamical systems, Steinbach's golden fields, and Coxeter's Euclidean geometry of ''n'' dimensions. Application of the Fontaine and Hurley procedure in higher-dimensional spaces demonstrates why the connection exists: because polytope sequences generally, from Steinbach's golden polygon chord sequences, to chord sequences in isoclinic rotation helixes, to subsumption relations in the sequence of regular 4-polytopes, arise as expressions of the reflections and rotations of distinct Coxeter symmetry groups, when those various groups interact.

== Appendix: Sequence of regular 4-polytopes ==
{{Regular convex 4-polytopes|wiki=W:|columns=7}}

== Notes ==
{{Notelist}}

== Citations ==
{{Reflist}}

== References ==
{{Refbegin}}
* {{Cite journal | last=Steinbach | first=Peter | year=1997 | title=Golden fields: A case for the Heptagon | journal=Mathematics Magazine | volume=70 | issue=Feb 1997 | pages=22–31 | doi=10.1080/0025570X.1997.11996494 | jstor=2691048 | ref={{SfnRef|Steinbach|1997}} }}
* {{Cite journal | last=Steinbach | first=Peter | year=2000 | title=Sections Beyond Golden| journal=Bridges: Mathematical Connections in Art, Music and Science | issue=2000 | pages=35-44 | url=https://archive.bridgesmathart.org/2000/bridges2000-35.pdf | ref={{SfnRef|Steinbach|2000}}}}
* {{Cite journal | last1=Kappraff | first1=Jay | last2=Jablan | first2=Slavik | last3=Adamson | first3=Gary | last4=Sazdanovich | first4=Radmila | year=2004 | title=Golden Fields, Generalized Fibonacci Sequences, and Chaotic Matrices | journal=Forma | volume=19 | pages=367-387 | url=https://archive.bridgesmathart.org/2005/bridges2005-369.pdf | ref={{SfnRef|Kappraff, Jablan, Adamson &amp; Sazdanovich|2004}} }}
* {{Cite journal | last1=Kappraff | first1=Jay | last2=Adamson | first2=Gary | year=2004 | title=Polygons and Chaos | journal=Dynamical Systems and Geometric Theories | url=https://archive.bridgesmathart.org/2001/bridges2001-67.pdf | ref={{SfnRef|Kappraff &amp; Adamson|2004}} }}
* {{Cite journal | last1=Fontaine | first1=Anne | last2=Hurley | first2=Susan | year=2006 | title=Proof by Picture: Products and Reciprocals of Diagonal Length Ratios in the Regular Polygon | journal=Forum Geometricorum | volume=6 | pages=97-101 | url=https://scispace.com/pdf/proof-by-picture-products-and-reciprocals-of-diagonal-length-1aian8mgp9.pdf }}
{{Refend}}</text>
      <sha1>nhpm9hvrcqnqy8t16xksnvw7oixsx7r</sha1>
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    <revision>
      <id>2808098</id>
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      <contributor>
        <username>Dc.samizdat</username>
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      <text bytes="45832" sha1="o26kbruay8who9ier0egp7wcq0wfuxp" xml:space="preserve">{{align|center|David Brooks Christie}}
{{align|center|dc@samizdat.org}}
{{align|center|Draft in progress}}
{{align|center|January 2026 - April 2026}}

&lt;blockquote&gt;Steinbach discovered the formula for the ratios of diagonal to side in the regular polygons. Fontaine and Hurley extended this result, discovering a formula for the reciprocal of a regular polygon chord derived geometrically from the chord's star polygon. We observe that these findings in plane geometry apply more generally, to polytopes of any dimensionality. Fontaine and Hurley's geometric procedure for finding the reciprocals of the chords of a regular polygon from their star polygons also finds the rotational geodesics of any polytope of any dimensionality.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
== Introduction ==
Steinbach discovered the Diagonal Product Formula and the Golden Fields family of ratios of diagonal to side in the regular polygons. He showed how this family extends beyond the pentagon {5} with its well-known golden bisection proportional to 𝜙, finding that the heptagon {7} has an analogous trisection, the nonagon {9} has an analogous quadrasection, and the hendecagon {11} has an analogous pentasection, an extended family of golden proportions with quasiperiodic properties. 

Kappraff and Adamson extended these findings in plane geometry to a theory of Generalized Fibonacci Sequences, showing that the Golden Fields not only do not end with the hendecagon, they form an infinite number of periodic trajectories when operated on by the Mandelbrot operator. They found a relation between the edges of star polygons and dynamical systems in the state of chaos, revealing a connection between chaos theory, number, and rotations in Coxeter Euclidean geometry. 

Fontaine and Hurley examined Steinbach's finding that the length of each chord of a regular polygon is both the product of two chords and the sum of a set of smaller chords, so that in rotations to add is to multiply. They illustrated Steinbach's sets of additive chords lying parallel to each other in the plane (pointing in the same direction), and by applying Steinbach's formula more generally they found another summation relation of signed parallel chords (pointing in opposite directions) which relates each chord length to its reciprocal, and relates the summation to a distinct star polygon rotation. 

We examine these remarkable findings (which stem from study of the chords of humble regular polygons) in higher-dimensional spaces, specifically in the chords, polygons and rotations of the [[120-cell]], the largest four-dimensional regular convex polytope.

== Visualizing the 120-cell ==
{| class=&quot;wikitable floatright&quot; width=&quot;400&quot;
|style=&quot;vertical-align:top&quot;|[[File:120-cell.gif|200px]]&lt;br&gt;Orthographic projection of the 600-point 120-cell &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\{5,3,3\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; performing a [[W:SO(4)#Geometry of 4D rotations|simple rotation]].{{Sfn|Hise|2011|loc=File:120-cell.gif|ps=; &quot;Created by Jason Hise with Maya and Macromedia Fireworks. A 3D projection of a 120-cell performing a [[W:SO(4)#Geometry of 4D rotations|simple rotation]].&quot;}} In this simplified rendering only the 120-cell's own edges are shown; its 29 interior chords are not rendered. Therefore even though it is translucent, only its outer surface is visible. The complex interior parts of the 120-cell, all its inscribed 5-cells, 16-cells, 8-cells, 24-cells, 600-cells and its much larger inventory of polyhedra, are completely invisible in this view, as none of their edges are rendered at all.
|style=&quot;vertical-align:top&quot;|[[File:Ortho solid 016-uniform polychoron p33-t0.png|200px]]&lt;br&gt;Orthographic projection of the 600-point [[W:Great grand stellated 120-cell|great grand stellated 120-cell]] &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\{\tfrac{5}{2},3,3\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;.{{Sfn|Ruen: Great grand stellated 120-cell|2007}} The 120-cell is its convex hull. The projection to the left renders only the 120-cell's shortest chord, its 1200 edges. The projection above also renders only one of the 120-cell's 30 chords, the edges of its 120 inscribed regular 5-cells. The 120-cell itself (the convex hull) is invisible in this view, as its edges are not rendered.
|}

[[120-cell#Geometry|The 120-cell is the maximally complex regular 4-polytope]], containing inscribed instances of every regular 1-, 2-, 3-, and 4-polytope, except the regular polygons of more than {15} sides. 

The 120-cell is the convex hull of a regular [[120-cell#Relationships among interior polytopes|compound of each of the 6 regular convex 4-polytopes]]. They are the [[5-cell|5-point (5-cell) 4-simplex]], the [[16-cell|8-point (16-cell) 4-orthoplex]], the [[W:Tesseract|16-point (8-cell) tesseract]], the [[24-cell|24-point (24-cell)]], the [[600-cell|120-point (600-cell)]], and the [[120-cell|600-point (120-cell)]]. The 120-cell is the convex hull of a compound of 120 disjoint regular 5-cells, of 75 disjoint 16-cells, of 25 disjoint 24-cells, and of 5 disjoint 600-cells.

The 120-cell contains an even larger inventory of irregular polytopes, created by the intersection of multiple instances of these component regular 4-polytopes. Many are quite unexpected, because they do not occur as components of any regular polytope smaller than the 120-cell. As just one example among the [[120-cell#Concentric hulls|sections of the 120-cell]], there is an irregular 24-point polyhedron with 16 triangle faces and 4 nonagon {9} faces.{{Sfn|Moxness|}}

Most renderings of the 120-cell, like the rotating projection here, only illustrate its outer surface, which is a honeycomb of face-bonded dodecahedral cells. Only the objects in its 3-dimensional surface are rendered, namely the 120 dodecahedra, their pentagon faces, and their edges. Although the 120-cell has chords of 30 distinct lengths, in this kind of simplified rendering only the 120-cell's own edges (its shortest chord) are shown. Its 29 interior chords, the edges of objects in the interior of the 120-cell, are not rendered, so interior objects are not visible at all.

Visualizing the complete interior of the 600-vertex 120-cell in a single image is impractical because of its complexity. Only four 120-cell edges are incident at each vertex, but [[120-cell#Chords|600 chords (of all 30 lengths)]] are incident at ''each'' vertex.

== Compounds in the 120-cell ==
The 8-point (16-cell), not the 5-point (5-cell), is the smallest building block; it compounds to every larger regular 4-polytope. The 5-point (5-cell) does compound to the 600-point (120-cell), but it does not fit into any smaller regular 4-polytope. 

The 8-point (16-cell) compounds by 2 in the 16-point (8-cell), and by 3 in the 24-point (24-cell). The 16-point (8-cell) compounds in the 24-point (24-cell) by 3 non-disjoint instances of itself, with each of the 24 vertices shared by two 16-point (8-cells). The 24-point (24-cell) compounds by 5 disjoint instances of itself in the 120-point (600-cell), and the 120-point (600-cell) compounds by 5 disjoint instances of itself in the 600-point (120-cell).

The 24-point (24-cell) also compounds by &lt;math&gt;5^2&lt;/math&gt; non-disjoint instances of itself in the 120-point (600-cell); it compounds in 5 disjoint instances of itself, 10 (not 5) different ways. Whichever set of 5 disjoint 24-point (24-cells) are assembled, the resulting 120-point (600-cell) contains 25 distinct 24-point (24-cells), not just 5 (or 10). This implies that 15 disjoint 8-point (16-cells) will construct a 120-point (600-cell), which will contain 75 distinct 8-point (16-cells). 

The 600-point (120-cell) is 5 disjoint 120-point (600-cells), just 2 different ways (not 5 or 10 ways), so it is 10 distinct 120-point (600-cells). This implies that the 8-point (16-cell) compounds by 3 times &lt;math&gt;5^2&lt;/math&gt; (75) disjoint instances of itself in the 600-point (120-cell), which contains &lt;math&gt;3^2&lt;/math&gt; times  &lt;math&gt;5^2&lt;/math&gt; (225) distinct instances of the 24-point (24-cell), and  &lt;math&gt;3^3&lt;/math&gt; times &lt;math&gt;5^2&lt;/math&gt; (675) distinct instances of the 8-point (16-cell). 

These facts were discovered painstakingly by various researchers, and no one has found a general rule governing subsumption relations among regular polytopes. The reasons for some of their numeric incidence relations are far from obvious. [[W:Pieter Hendrik Schoute|Schoute]] was the first to see that the 120-point (600-cell) is a compound of 5 24-point (24-cells) ''10 different ways'', and after he saw it a hundred years lapsed until Denney, Hooker, Johnson, Robinson, Butler &amp; Claiborne proved his result, and showed why.{{Sfn|Denney, Hooker, Johnson, Robinson, Butler &amp; Claiborne|2020|loc=''The geometry of H4 polytopes''}}

So much for the compounds of 16-cells. The 120-cell is also the convex hull of the compound of 120 disjoint regular 5-cells. That stellated compound (without its convex hull of 120-cell edges) is the [[w:Great_grand_stellated_120-cell|great grand stellated 120-cell]] illustrated above, the final regular [[W:Stellation|stellation]] of the 120-cell, and the only [[W:Schläfli-Hess polychoron|regular star 4-polytope]] to have the 120-cell for its convex hull. The edges of the great grand stellated 120-cell are &lt;math&gt;\phi^6&lt;/math&gt; as long as those of its 120-cell [[W:List of polyhedral stellations#Stellation process|stellation core]] deep inside.

The compound of 120 disjoint 5-point (5-cells) can be seen to be equivalent to the compound of 5 disjoint 120-point (600-cells), as follows. Beginning with a single 120-point (600-cell), expand each vertex into a regular 5-cell, by adding 4 new equidistant vertices, such that the 5 vertices form a regular 5-cell inscribed in the 3-sphere. The 120 5-cells are disjoint, and the 600 vertices form 5 disjoint 120-point (600-cells): a 120-cell.

== Thirty distinguished distances ==
The 30 numbers listed in the table are all-important in Euclidean geometry. A case can be made on symmetry grounds that their squares are the 30 most important numbers between 0 and 4. The 30 rows of the table are the 30 distinct [[120-cell#Geodesic rectangles|chord lengths of the unit-radius 120-cell]], the largest regular convex 4-polytope. Since the 120-cell subsumes all smaller regular polytopes, its 30 chords are the complete chord set of all the regular polytopes that can be constructed in the first four dimensions of Euclidean space, except for regular polygons of more than 15 sides.

{| class=&quot;wikitable&quot; style=&quot;white-space:nowrap;text-align:center&quot;
!rowspan=2|&lt;math&gt;c_t&lt;/math&gt;
!rowspan=2|arc
!rowspan=2|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{n}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
!rowspan=2|&lt;math&gt;\left\{p\right\}&lt;/math&gt;
!rowspan=2|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;m\left\{\frac{k}{d}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
!rowspan=2|Steinbach roots
!colspan=7|Chord lengths of the unit 120-cell
|-
!colspan=5|unit-radius length &lt;math&gt;c_t&lt;/math&gt;
!colspan=2|unit-edge length &lt;math&gt;c_t/c_1&lt;/math&gt;&lt;br&gt;in 120-cell of radius &lt;math&gt;c_8=\sqrt{2}\phi^2&lt;/math&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{1,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;15.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{30\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{30\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{4,1}-c_{2,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{7-3 \sqrt{5}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.270091&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\sqrt{2} \phi ^2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2 \phi ^4}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.072949}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{2,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;25.2{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{2}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2 \left\{15\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \left(c_{18,1}-c_{4,1}\right)&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{3-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.437016&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\sqrt{2} \phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2 \phi ^2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.190983}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi &lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.61803&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{3,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;36{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{3}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{10\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;3 \left\{\frac{10}{3}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \left(\sqrt{5}-1\right) c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \left(\sqrt{5}-1\right)&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.618034&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{\phi ^2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.381966}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2} \phi &lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2.28825&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{4,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;41.4{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{60}{7}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{c_{8,1}}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.707107&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2.61803&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{5,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;44.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{4}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2 \left\{\frac{15}{2}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3} c_{2,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{9-3 \sqrt{5}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.756934&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}}}{\phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2 \phi ^2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.572949}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3} \phi &lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2.80252&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{6,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;49.1{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{120}{17}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{5-\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{5-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.831254&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\frac{1}{\phi }}}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{\sqrt{5}}{2 \phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.690983}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\phi ^3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;3.07768&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{7,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;56.0{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{20}{3}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}-\frac{1}{\phi }} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}-\frac{2}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.93913&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{\frac{\psi }{\phi }}}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{\psi }{2 \phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.881966}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\psi  \phi ^3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;3.47709&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;60{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{5}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{6\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{6\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;3.70246&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{9,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;66.1{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{40}{7}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}-\frac{1}{2 \phi }} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}-\frac{1}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.09132&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{\frac{\chi }{\phi }}}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{\chi }{2 \phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.19098}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\chi  \phi ^3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;4.04057&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{10,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;69.8{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{60}{11}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi  c_{4,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1+\sqrt{5}}{2 \sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.14412&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\phi }{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{\phi ^2}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.30902}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^3&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;4.23607&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{11,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;72{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{6}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{5\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{5\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\frac{1}{\phi }} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\frac{2}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.17557&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3-\phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3-\phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.38197}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2} \sqrt{3-\phi } \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;4.3525&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{12,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;75.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{24}{5}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.22474&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;4.53457&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{13,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;81.1{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{60}{13}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{9-\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{9-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.30038&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{9-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{4} \left(9-\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.69098}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2} \left(9-\sqrt{5}\right)} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;4.8146&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{14,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;84.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{40}{9}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\phi } c_{8,1}}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{1+\sqrt{5}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.345&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\phi }}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{\sqrt{5} \phi }{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.80902}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\phi ^5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;4.9798&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{15,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;90.0{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{7}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{4\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{4\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2 c_{4,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.41421&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2 \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;5.23607&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{16,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;95.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{120}{29}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{11-\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{11-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.4802&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{11-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{4} \left(11-\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.19098}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2} \left(11-\sqrt{5}\right)} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;5.48037&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{17,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;98.9{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{120}{31}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{7+\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{7+\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.51954&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{7+\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{4} \left(7+\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.30902}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\psi  \phi ^5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;5.62605&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{18,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;104.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{8}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{15}{4}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.58114&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{5} \sqrt{\phi ^4}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;5.8541&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{19,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;108.0{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{9}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{10}{3}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{3,1}+c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \left(1+\sqrt{5}\right)&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.61803&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi &lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1+\phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.61803}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2} \phi ^3&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;5.9907&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{20,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;110.2{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{120}{7}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{13-\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{13-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.64042&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{13-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{4} \left(13-\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.69098}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2 \sqrt{8-\phi ^2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.07359&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{21,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;113.9{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{60}{19}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}+\frac{1}{1+\sqrt{5}}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}+\frac{1}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.67601&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}+\frac{1}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}+\frac{1}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.80902}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2 \sqrt{8-\frac{\chi }{\phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.20537&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{22,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;120{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{10}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{3\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{3\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.73205&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{6} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.41285&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{23,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;124.0{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{120}{41}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{\phi }+\frac{5}{2}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}+\frac{2}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.7658&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{4-\frac{\psi }{2 \phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{4-\frac{\psi }{2 \phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.11803}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\chi  \phi ^5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.53779&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{24,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;130.9{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{20}{7}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{11+\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{11+\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.81907&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{11+\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{4} \left(11+\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.30902}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2 \sqrt{8-\frac{\sqrt{5}}{\phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.73503&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{25,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;135.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{11}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{11}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{7+3 \sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{7+3 \sqrt{5}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.85123&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\phi ^2}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{\phi ^4}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.42705}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^4&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.8541&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{26,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;138.6{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{12}{5}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{7}{2}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{7}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.87083&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{7}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{7}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{7} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.92667&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{27,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;144{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{12}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{5}{2}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2} \left(5+\sqrt{5}\right)} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2} \left(5+\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.90211&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\phi +2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2+\phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.61803}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2 \sqrt{2 \phi +4}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;7.0425&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{28,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;154.8{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{13}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{13}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{13+\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{13+\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.95167&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{13+\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{4} \left(13+\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.80902}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2 \sqrt{8-\frac{1}{\phi ^2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;7.22598&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{29,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;164.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{14}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{15}{7}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi  c_{12,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{\frac{3}{2}} \left(1+\sqrt{5}\right)&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.98168&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}} \phi &lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3 \phi ^2}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.92705}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3} \phi ^3&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;7.33708&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{30,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;180{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{15}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{2\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{2\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2 c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2.&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{4}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{4.}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2 \sqrt{2} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;7.40492&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|rowspan=4 colspan=6|
|rowspan=4 colspan=4|
&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; is the golden ratio:&lt;br&gt;
&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2-\phi -1=0&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;&lt;br&gt;
&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\phi }+1=\phi&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;, and: &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi+1=\phi^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;&lt;br&gt;
&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\phi }::1::\phi ::\phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;&lt;br&gt;
&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1/\phi&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; and &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; are the golden sections of &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;:&lt;br&gt;
&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi +\frac{1}{\phi }=\sqrt{5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|colspan=2|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi = (\sqrt{5} + 1)/2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.618034&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|colspan=2|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\chi = (3\sqrt{5} + 1)/2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;3.854102&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|colspan=2|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\psi = (3\sqrt{5} - 1)/2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2.854102&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|colspan=2|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\psi = 11/\chi = 22/(3\sqrt{5} + 1)&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2.854102&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|}

...

== The 8-point regular polytopes ==
In 2-space we have the regular 8-point octagon, in 3-space the regular 8-point cube, and in 4-space the regular 8-point [[W:16-cell|16-cell]].

A planar octagon with rigid edges of unit length has chords of length:

:&lt;math&gt;r_1=1,r_2=\sqrt{2+\sqrt{2}} \approx 1.84776,r_3=1+\sqrt{2} \approx 2.41421,r_4=\sqrt{4 + \sqrt{8}} \approx 2.61313&lt;/math&gt;

The chord ratio &lt;math&gt;r_3=1+\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt; is a geometrical proportion, the [[W:Silver ratio|silver ratio]]. Fontaine and Hurley's procedure for obtaining the reciprocal of a chord tells us that:

:&lt;math&gt;r_3-r_1-r_1=1/r_3 \approx 0.41421&lt;/math&gt;

Notice that &lt;math&gt;1/r_3=\sqrt{2}-1=r_3-2&lt;/math&gt;.

If we embed this planar octagon in 3-space, we can make it skew, repositioning its vertices so that each is one unit-edge length distant from three others instead of two others, so we obtain a unit-edge cube with chords of length:

:&lt;math&gt;r_1=1, r_2=\sqrt{2}, r_3=\sqrt{3}, r_4=\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;

If we embed this cube in 4-space, we can skew it some more, repositioning its vertices so that each is one unit-edge length distant from six others instead of three others, so we obtain a unit-edge 4-polytope with chords of length:

:&lt;math&gt;r_1=1,r_2=1,r_3=1,r_4=\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;

All of its chords except its long diameters are the same unit length as its edge. In fact they are its 24 edges, and it is a 16-cell of radius &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1/\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;.

[[File:octagon16cell.png|thumb|Orthogonal projection of a regular 16-cell to the [[16-cell#Projections|B&lt;sub&gt;4&lt;/sub&gt; Coxeter plane]]. Only its edges are shown; its long diameter chords are not drawn. All 24 edges are the same length. Only the edges of the two disjoint squares lie parallel to the view plane, in completely orthogonal planes.]]

The [[16-cell]] is the [[W:Regular convex 4-polytope|regular convex 4-polytope]] with [[W:Schläfli symbol|Schläfli symbol]] {3,3,4}. It has 8 vertices, 24 edges, 32 equilateral triangle faces, and 16 regular tetrahedron cells. It is the [[16-cell#Octahedral dipyramid|four-dimensional analogue of the octahedron]], and each of its four orthogonal central hyperplanes is an octahedron.

The only planar regular polygons found in the 16-cell are face triangles and central plane squares, but the 16-cell also contains a regular skew octagon, its [[W:Petrie polygon|Petrie polygon]]. The chords of this regular octagon, which lies skew in 4-space, are those given above for the 16-cell, as opposed to those for the cube or the regular octagon in the plane. The 16-cell has 3 such Petrie octagons, which share the same 8 vertices but have disjoint sets of 8 edges each.

The regular octad has higher symmetry in 4-space than it does in 2-space. The 16-cell is the 4-orthoplex, the simplest regular 4-polytope after the [[5-cell|4-simplex]]. All the larger regular 4-polytopes, including the 120-cell, are compounds of the 16-cell. The regular octagon exhibits this high symmetry only when embedded in 4-space at the vertices of the 16-cell.

The 16-cell constitutes an [[W:Orthonormal basis|orthonormal basis]] for the choice of a 4-dimensional Cartesian reference frame, because its vertices define four orthogonal axes. The eight vertices of a unit-radius 16-cell are (±1, 0, 0, 0), (0, ±1, 0, 0), (0, 0, ±1, 0), (0, 0, 0, ±1). All vertices are connected by &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; edges except opposite pairs. In this convenient unit-radius 4-coordinate system, the original planar octagon we started with had chords of length:

:&lt;math&gt;r_1=\sqrt{2},r_2=\sqrt{2(2+\sqrt{2})} \approx 2.61313,r_3=2+\sqrt{2} \approx 3.41421,r_4=2 \sqrt{2+\sqrt{2}} \approx 3.69552&lt;/math&gt;

none of which chords occur in a 16-cell or 120-cell except &lt;math&gt;r_1=\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;. 

In the unit-radius 120-cell, the great square edge chord &lt;math&gt;c_{15} = \sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt; occurs in 675 distinct (75 disjoint) 16-cells. The vertex coordinates of each 16-cell form 6 central squares lying in 6 pairwise [[W:Orthogonal|orthogonal]] coordinate planes. Great squares in ''opposite'' planes that do not share an axis (e.g. in the ''xy'' and ''wz'' planes) are completely disjoint (they do not intersect at any vertices). These planes are [[W:Completely orthogonal|completely orthogonal]].{{Efn|name=Six orthogonal planes of the Cartesian basis}}

[[W:Rotations in 4-dimensional Euclidean space|Rotations in 4-dimensional Euclidean space]] can be seen as the composition of two 2-dimensional rotations in completely orthogonal planes. The general rotation in 4-space is a double rotation in pairs of completely orthogonal planes. Two completely orthogonal planes are called invariant planes of the rotation when all points in the plane rotate on circles that remain in the plane, even as the whole plane tilts sideways (like a coin flipping) into another plane. The two completely orthogonal rotations of each plane (like a wheel, and like a coin flipping) are simultaneous but independent, in that they are not geometrically constrained to turn at the same rate. However, the most circular kind of rotation (as opposed to an elliptical double rotation of a rigid spherical object) occurs when the invariant planes do rotate through the same angle in the same time interval. Such equi-angled double rotations are called [[w:SO(4)#Isoclinic_rotations|isoclinic]], also [[w:William_Kingdon_Clifford|Clifford]] displacements.

The 16-cell is the simplest possible frame in which to [[16-cell#Rotations|observe 4-dimensional rotations]] because its characteristic isoclinic rotations feature a single pair of invariant rotation planes. In the 16-cell an isoclinic rotation by 90° in any pair of invariant completely orthogonal square central planes takes every square central plane to its completely orthogonal square central plane, and takes every vertex to its antipodal vertex 180° degrees away. All the vertices move at once, displaced 180° in 8 orthogonal directions, and the rigid 16-cell assumes a new orientation in 4-space. The trajectory of each vertex is a one-eighth segment of its [[W:Geodesic|geodesic]] orbit. Its entire orbit traces a circular helix in 4-space, and also traces a great circle in one of the two completely orthogonal invariant rotation planes, as they tilt sideways into each other's plane. When the isoclinic rotation is continued in the same rotational direction through an additional 90°, each vertex is again displaced 180° to its antipodal position, but from the new orientation where the vertex is on the opposite side of the 16-cell departing in the opposite direction. In the course of a 720° isoclinic rotation each vertex departs from all 8 vertex positions just once, and returns to its original position.

== Hypercubes ==
The long diameter of the unit-edge [[W:Hypercube|hypercube]] of dimension &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;n&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; is &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{n}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;, so the unit-edge [[w:Tesseract|4-hypercube, the 16-point (8-cell) tesseract,]] has chords:
:&lt;math&gt;r_1=\sqrt{1},r_2=\sqrt{2},r_3=\sqrt{3},r_4=\sqrt{4}&lt;/math&gt;
Uniquely in its 4-dimensional case, the hypercube's edge length equals its radius, like the hexagon. We call such polytopes ''radially equilateral'', because they can be constructed from equilateral triangles which meet at their center, each contributing two radii and an edge. The cuboctahedron and the 24-cell are also radially equilateral.

The [[W:Tesseract|tesseract]] is the [[W:Regular convex 4-polytope|regular convex 4-polytope]] with [[W:Schläfli symbol|Schläfli symbol]] {4,3,3}. It has 16 vertices, 32 edges, 24 square faces, and 8 cube cells. It is the four-dimensional analogue of the cube.

The tesseract is the [[W:Dual polytope|dual polytope]] of the 16-cell. They have the same Petrie polygon, the regular octagon, but the tesseract contains 2 disjoint instances and 4 distinct instances of the skew octagon. We can construct the tesseract the way we constructed the 16-cell, by skewing a planar octagon's edges so they become edges of the 4-polytope. Because the tesseract has 16 vertices we will need two planar octagons, and to start we must embedded them in 4-space as completely orthogonal planes that intersect at only one point, their common center. Because the tesseract is radially equilateral (unlike the 16-cell), to build a unit-radius tesseract we start with our original octagon of unit-edge length, rather than the octagon of edge length &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; that we needed to build the unit-radius 16-cell.

For our tesseract construction we skew each planar octagon into a cube, so we have a compound of two completely orthogonal cubes. Provided the planes were completely orthogonal in 4-space and we skewed them both the same way, the 16 vertices will be the vertices of a tesseract with half of its 32 edges missing.

The 16-point tesseract is the convex hull of a compound of two 8-point 16-cells, in exact dimensional analogy to the way the 8-point cube is the convex hull of a [[W:Stellated octahedron|compound of two regular 4-point tetrahedra]]. The [[W:Demihypercube|demihypercubes]] occupy alternate vertices of the hypercubes. The diagonals of the square faces of the unit-radius tesseract are the &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; edges of two unit-radius 16-cells, which are also the edges of the square central planes.

Because the tesseract contains two 16-cells in alternate positions it has two sets of 6 orthogonal square central planes. Two angles are required to specify the relationship between two planes in 4-space. Pairs of planes within each 16-cell are 90° apart in one angle, and either 0° or 90° apart in the other angle. They are 90° apart in both angles if and only if they are completely orthogonal planes, 90° apart by isoclinic rotation, with no vertices in common and their corresponding vertices 180° apart. Otherwise they are 0° apart in one of the angles, 90° apart by simple rotation with their corresponding vertices 90° apart, and they intersect in one axis and lie in a common 3-dimensional hyperplane.{{Efn|A double rotation in which one of the two angles of rotation is 0°, so that one of the completely orthogonal invariant planes does not rotate, is called a simple rotation. Ordinary rotations observed in a 3-dimensional space are simple rotations.}}

A pair of square central planes from alternate 16-cells are 60° apart by isoclinic rotation, with their corresponding vertices 120° apart. The planes are not orthogonal or parallel, so they intersect in a line somewhere, but they have no vertices in common, they have no 3-dimensional hyperplane in common, and they cannot reach each other by simple rotation. Such pairs of objects are called [[W:Clifford parallel|Clifford parallel]] because all their corresponding pairs of vertices are the same distance apart, although they are not parallel in the usual sense, because they have a common center. Not only the alternate 16-cells' corresponding square central planes, but also the 16-cells themselves, are Clifford parallel objects.

We can rotate the tesseract isoclinically the way we rotated the 16-cell, by 90° in two completely orthogonal invariant square central planes, with the same effect on both alternate 16-cells. In the course of a 720° isoclinic rotation in invariant square central planes each vertex departs from all 8 vertex positions of its 16-cell just once and returns to its original position, but it does not visit the vertex positions of the other 16-cell. The skew octagon geodesic orbits of the 16 vertices are disjoint circular helixes, and those 16 circular helixes are Clifford parallel objects.

== The 24-cell ==
In 2-space we have the radially equilateral 6-point hexagon. In 3-space we have the radially equilateral 12-point cuboctahedron, with 4 hexagonal central planes. In 4-space we have the radially equilateral 24-point 24-cell, with 4 cuboctahedral central hyperplanes and 16 hexagonal central planes.

Great hexagons are a rounder choice than great squares for the invariant rotation planes in which to rotate a 4-polytope isoclinically. The complete hexagonal isoclinic revolution requires 720° like the complete square isoclinic revolution, but it is completed in 6 chordal steps of 120° each rather than 8 chordal steps of 180° each.

...

== The 600-cell ==

...

== Finally the 120-cell ==

...

== Conclusions ==

Fontaine and Hurley's discovery is more than a formula for the reciprocal of a regular ''n''-polygon diagonal. It also yields the discrete sequence of isocline chords of the distinct isoclinic rotation characteristic of a ''d''-dimensional regular polytope. The characteristic rotational chord sequence of the ''d''-polytope can be represented geometrically in two dimensions on a distinct star polygon, but it lies on a geodesic circle through ''d''-dimensional space. Fontaine and Hurley discovered the geodesic topology of polytopes generally. Their procedure will reveal the geodesics of arbitrary non-uniform polytopes, since it can be applied to a polytope of any dimensionality and irregularity, by first fitting the polytope to the smallest regular polygon whose chords include its chords.

Fontaine and Hurley's discovery of a chordal formula for isoclinic rotations closes the circuit on Kappraff and Adamson's discovery of a rotational connection between dynamical systems, Steinbach's golden fields, and Coxeter's Euclidean geometry of ''n'' dimensions. Application of the Fontaine and Hurley procedure in higher-dimensional spaces demonstrates why the connection exists: because polytope sequences generally, from Steinbach's golden polygon chord sequences, to chord sequences in isoclinic rotation helixes, to subsumption relations in the sequence of regular 4-polytopes, arise as expressions of the reflections and rotations of distinct Coxeter symmetry groups, when those various groups interact.

== Appendix: Sequence of regular 4-polytopes ==
{{Regular convex 4-polytopes|wiki=W:|columns=7}}

== Notes ==
{{Notelist}}

== Citations ==
{{Reflist}}

== References ==
{{Refbegin}}
* {{Cite journal | last=Steinbach | first=Peter | year=1997 | title=Golden fields: A case for the Heptagon | journal=Mathematics Magazine | volume=70 | issue=Feb 1997 | pages=22–31 | doi=10.1080/0025570X.1997.11996494 | jstor=2691048 | ref={{SfnRef|Steinbach|1997}} }}
* {{Cite journal | last=Steinbach | first=Peter | year=2000 | title=Sections Beyond Golden| journal=Bridges: Mathematical Connections in Art, Music and Science | issue=2000 | pages=35-44 | url=https://archive.bridgesmathart.org/2000/bridges2000-35.pdf | ref={{SfnRef|Steinbach|2000}}}}
* {{Cite journal | last1=Kappraff | first1=Jay | last2=Jablan | first2=Slavik | last3=Adamson | first3=Gary | last4=Sazdanovich | first4=Radmila | year=2004 | title=Golden Fields, Generalized Fibonacci Sequences, and Chaotic Matrices | journal=Forma | volume=19 | pages=367-387 | url=https://archive.bridgesmathart.org/2005/bridges2005-369.pdf | ref={{SfnRef|Kappraff, Jablan, Adamson &amp; Sazdanovich|2004}} }}
* {{Cite journal | last1=Kappraff | first1=Jay | last2=Adamson | first2=Gary | year=2004 | title=Polygons and Chaos | journal=Dynamical Systems and Geometric Theories | url=https://archive.bridgesmathart.org/2001/bridges2001-67.pdf | ref={{SfnRef|Kappraff &amp; Adamson|2004}} }}
* {{Cite journal | last1=Fontaine | first1=Anne | last2=Hurley | first2=Susan | year=2006 | title=Proof by Picture: Products and Reciprocals of Diagonal Length Ratios in the Regular Polygon | journal=Forum Geometricorum | volume=6 | pages=97-101 | url=https://scispace.com/pdf/proof-by-picture-products-and-reciprocals-of-diagonal-length-1aian8mgp9.pdf }}
{{Refend}}</text>
      <sha1>o26kbruay8who9ier0egp7wcq0wfuxp</sha1>
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    <revision>
      <id>2808099</id>
      <parentid>2808098</parentid>
      <timestamp>2026-05-09T20:26:15Z</timestamp>
      <contributor>
        <username>Dc.samizdat</username>
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      <text bytes="45840" sha1="hdxd7gk6dl8cw2eyrtqwzzt3a4wof3x" xml:space="preserve">{{align|center|David Brooks Christie}}
{{align|center|dc@samizdat.org}}
{{align|center|Draft in progress}}
{{align|center|January 2026 - April 2026}}

&lt;blockquote&gt;Steinbach discovered the formula for the ratios of diagonal to side in the regular polygons. Fontaine and Hurley extended this result, discovering a formula for the reciprocal of a regular polygon chord derived geometrically from the chord's star polygon. We observe that these findings in plane geometry apply more generally, to polytopes of any dimensionality. Fontaine and Hurley's geometric procedure for finding the reciprocals of the chords of a regular polygon from their star polygons also finds the rotational geodesics of any polytope of any dimensionality.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
== Introduction ==
Steinbach discovered the Diagonal Product Formula and the Golden Fields family of ratios of diagonal to side in the regular polygons. He showed how this family extends beyond the pentagon {5} with its well-known golden bisection proportional to 𝜙, finding that the heptagon {7} has an analogous trisection, the nonagon {9} has an analogous quadrasection, and the hendecagon {11} has an analogous pentasection, an extended family of golden proportions with quasiperiodic properties. 

Kappraff and Adamson extended these findings in plane geometry to a theory of Generalized Fibonacci Sequences, showing that the Golden Fields not only do not end with the hendecagon, they form an infinite number of periodic trajectories when operated on by the Mandelbrot operator. They found a relation between the edges of star polygons and dynamical systems in the state of chaos, revealing a connection between chaos theory, number, and rotations in Coxeter Euclidean geometry. 

Fontaine and Hurley examined Steinbach's finding that the length of each chord of a regular polygon is both the product of two chords and the sum of a set of smaller chords, so that in rotations to add is to multiply. They illustrated Steinbach's sets of additive chords lying parallel to each other in the plane (pointing in the same direction), and by applying Steinbach's formula more generally they found another summation relation of signed parallel chords (pointing in opposite directions) which relates each chord length to its reciprocal, and relates the summation to a distinct star polygon rotation. 

We examine these remarkable findings (which stem from study of the chords of humble regular polygons) in higher-dimensional spaces, specifically in the chords, polygons and rotations of the [[120-cell]], the largest four-dimensional regular convex polytope.

== Visualizing the 120-cell ==
{| class=&quot;wikitable floatright&quot; width=&quot;400&quot;
|style=&quot;vertical-align:top&quot;|[[File:120-cell.gif|200px]]&lt;br&gt;Orthographic projection of the 600-point 120-cell &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\{5,3,3\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; performing a [[W:SO(4)#Geometry of 4D rotations|simple rotation]].{{Sfn|Hise|2011|loc=File:120-cell.gif|ps=; &quot;Created by Jason Hise with Maya and Macromedia Fireworks. A 3D projection of a 120-cell performing a [[W:SO(4)#Geometry of 4D rotations|simple rotation]].&quot;}} In this simplified rendering only the 120-cell's own edges are shown; its 29 interior chords are not rendered. Therefore even though it is translucent, only its outer surface is visible. The complex interior parts of the 120-cell, all its inscribed 5-cells, 16-cells, 8-cells, 24-cells, 600-cells and its much larger inventory of polyhedra, are completely invisible in this view, as none of their edges are rendered at all.
|style=&quot;vertical-align:top&quot;|[[File:Ortho solid 016-uniform polychoron p33-t0.png|200px]]&lt;br&gt;Orthographic projection of the 600-point [[W:Great grand stellated 120-cell|great grand stellated 120-cell]] &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\{\tfrac{5}{2},3,3\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;.{{Sfn|Ruen: Great grand stellated 120-cell|2007}} The 120-cell is its convex hull. The projection to the left renders only the 120-cell's shortest chord, its 1200 edges. The projection above also renders only one of the 120-cell's 30 chords, the edges of its 120 inscribed regular 5-cells. The 120-cell itself (the convex hull) is invisible in this view, as its edges are not rendered.
|}

[[120-cell#Geometry|The 120-cell is the maximally complex regular 4-polytope]], containing inscribed instances of every regular 1-, 2-, 3-, and 4-polytope, except the regular polygons of more than {15} sides. 

The 120-cell is the convex hull of a regular [[120-cell#Relationships among interior polytopes|compound of each of the 6 regular convex 4-polytopes]]. They are the [[5-cell|5-point (5-cell) 4-simplex]], the [[16-cell|8-point (16-cell) 4-orthoplex]], the [[W:Tesseract|16-point (8-cell) tesseract]], the [[24-cell|24-point (24-cell)]], the [[600-cell|120-point (600-cell)]], and the [[120-cell|600-point (120-cell)]]. The 120-cell is the convex hull of a compound of 120 disjoint regular 5-cells, of 75 disjoint 16-cells, of 25 disjoint 24-cells, and of 5 disjoint 600-cells.

The 120-cell contains an even larger inventory of irregular polytopes, created by the intersection of multiple instances of these component regular 4-polytopes. Many are quite unexpected, because they do not occur as components of any regular polytope smaller than the 120-cell. As just one example among the [[120-cell#Concentric hulls|sections of the 120-cell]], there is an irregular 24-point polyhedron with 16 triangle faces and 4 nonagon {9} faces.{{Sfn|Moxness|}}

Most renderings of the 120-cell, like the rotating projection here, only illustrate its outer surface, which is a honeycomb of face-bonded dodecahedral cells. Only the objects in its 3-dimensional surface are rendered, namely the 120 dodecahedra, their pentagon faces, and their edges. Although the 120-cell has chords of 30 distinct lengths, in this kind of simplified rendering only the 120-cell's own edges (its shortest chord) are shown. Its 29 interior chords, the edges of objects in the interior of the 120-cell, are not rendered, so interior objects are not visible at all.

Visualizing the complete interior of the 600-vertex 120-cell in a single image is impractical because of its complexity. Only four 120-cell edges are incident at each vertex, but [[120-cell#Chords|600 chords (of all 30 lengths)]] are incident at ''each'' vertex.

== Compounds in the 120-cell ==
The 8-point (16-cell), not the 5-point (5-cell), is the smallest building block; it compounds to every larger regular 4-polytope. The 5-point (5-cell) does compound to the 600-point (120-cell), but it does not fit into any smaller regular 4-polytope. 

The 8-point (16-cell) compounds by 2 in the 16-point (8-cell), and by 3 in the 24-point (24-cell). The 16-point (8-cell) compounds in the 24-point (24-cell) by 3 non-disjoint instances of itself, with each of the 24 vertices shared by two 16-point (8-cells). The 24-point (24-cell) compounds by 5 disjoint instances of itself in the 120-point (600-cell), and the 120-point (600-cell) compounds by 5 disjoint instances of itself in the 600-point (120-cell).

The 24-point (24-cell) also compounds by &lt;math&gt;5^2&lt;/math&gt; non-disjoint instances of itself in the 120-point (600-cell); it compounds in 5 disjoint instances of itself, 10 (not 5) different ways. Whichever set of 5 disjoint 24-point (24-cells) are assembled, the resulting 120-point (600-cell) contains 25 distinct 24-point (24-cells), not just 5 (or 10). This implies that 15 disjoint 8-point (16-cells) will construct a 120-point (600-cell), which will contain 75 distinct 8-point (16-cells). 

The 600-point (120-cell) is 5 disjoint 120-point (600-cells), just 2 different ways (not 5 or 10 ways), so it is 10 distinct 120-point (600-cells). This implies that the 8-point (16-cell) compounds by 3 times &lt;math&gt;5^2&lt;/math&gt; (75) disjoint instances of itself in the 600-point (120-cell), which contains &lt;math&gt;3^2&lt;/math&gt; times  &lt;math&gt;5^2&lt;/math&gt; (225) distinct instances of the 24-point (24-cell), and  &lt;math&gt;3^3&lt;/math&gt; times &lt;math&gt;5^2&lt;/math&gt; (675) distinct instances of the 8-point (16-cell). 

These facts were discovered painstakingly by various researchers, and no one has found a general rule governing subsumption relations among regular polytopes. The reasons for some of their numeric incidence relations are far from obvious. [[W:Pieter Hendrik Schoute|Schoute]] was the first to see that the 120-point (600-cell) is a compound of 5 24-point (24-cells) ''10 different ways'', and after he saw it a hundred years lapsed until Denney, Hooker, Johnson, Robinson, Butler &amp; Claiborne proved his result, and showed why.{{Sfn|Denney, Hooker, Johnson, Robinson, Butler &amp; Claiborne|2020|loc=''The geometry of H4 polytopes''}}

So much for the compounds of 16-cells. The 120-cell is also the convex hull of the compound of 120 disjoint regular 5-cells. That stellated compound (without its convex hull of 120-cell edges) is the [[w:Great_grand_stellated_120-cell|great grand stellated 120-cell]] illustrated above, the final regular [[W:Stellation|stellation]] of the 120-cell, and the only [[W:Schläfli-Hess polychoron|regular star 4-polytope]] to have the 120-cell for its convex hull. The edges of the great grand stellated 120-cell are &lt;math&gt;\phi^6&lt;/math&gt; as long as those of its 120-cell [[W:List of polyhedral stellations#Stellation process|stellation core]] deep inside.

The compound of 120 disjoint 5-point (5-cells) can be seen to be equivalent to the compound of 5 disjoint 120-point (600-cells), as follows. Beginning with a single 120-point (600-cell), expand each vertex into a regular 5-cell, by adding 4 new equidistant vertices, such that the 5 vertices form a regular 5-cell inscribed in the 3-sphere. The 120 5-cells are disjoint, and the 600 vertices form 5 disjoint 120-point (600-cells): a 120-cell.

== Thirty distinguished distances ==
The 30 numbers listed in the table are all-important in Euclidean geometry. A case can be made on symmetry grounds that their squares are the 30 most important numbers between 0 and 4. The 30 rows of the table are the 30 distinct [[120-cell#Geodesic rectangles|chord lengths of the unit-radius 120-cell]], the largest regular convex 4-polytope. Since the 120-cell subsumes all smaller regular polytopes, its 30 chords are the complete chord set of all the regular polytopes that can be constructed in the first four dimensions of Euclidean space, except for regular polygons of more than 15 sides.

{| class=&quot;wikitable&quot; style=&quot;white-space:nowrap;text-align:center&quot;
!rowspan=2|&lt;math&gt;c_t&lt;/math&gt;
!rowspan=2|arc
!rowspan=2|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{n}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
!rowspan=2|&lt;math&gt;\left\{p\right\}&lt;/math&gt;
!rowspan=2|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;m\left\{\frac{k}{d}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
!rowspan=2|Steinbach roots
!colspan=7|Chord lengths of the unit 120-cell
|-
!colspan=5|unit-radius length &lt;math&gt;c_t&lt;/math&gt;
!colspan=2|unit-edge length &lt;math&gt;c_t/c_1&lt;/math&gt;&lt;br&gt;in 120-cell of radius &lt;math&gt;c_8=\sqrt{2}\phi^2&lt;/math&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{1,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;15.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{30\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{30\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{4,1}-c_{2,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{7-3 \sqrt{5}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.270091&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\sqrt{2} \phi ^2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2 \phi ^4}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.072949}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{2,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;25.2{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{2}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2 \left\{15\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \left(c_{18,1}-c_{4,1}\right)&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{3-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.437016&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\sqrt{2} \phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2 \phi ^2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.190983}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi &lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.61803&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{3,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;36{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{3}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{10\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;3 \left\{\frac{10}{3}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \left(\sqrt{5}-1\right) c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \left(\sqrt{5}-1\right)&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.618034&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{\phi ^2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.381966}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2} \phi &lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2.28825&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{4,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;41.4{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{60}{7}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{c_{8,1}}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.707107&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2.61803&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{5,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;44.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{4}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2 \left\{\frac{15}{2}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3} c_{2,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{9-3 \sqrt{5}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.756934&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}}}{\phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2 \phi ^2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.572949}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3} \phi &lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2.80252&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{6,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;49.1{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{120}{17}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{5-\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{5-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.831254&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\frac{1}{\phi }}}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{\sqrt{5}}{2 \phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.690983}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\phi ^3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;3.07768&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{7,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;56.0{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{20}{3}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}-\frac{1}{\phi }} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}-\frac{2}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.93913&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{\frac{\psi }{\phi }}}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{\psi }{2 \phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.881966}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\psi  \phi ^3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;3.47709&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;60{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{5}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{6\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{6\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;3.70246&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{9,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;66.1{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{40}{7}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}-\frac{1}{2 \phi }} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}-\frac{1}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.09132&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{\frac{\chi }{\phi }}}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{\chi }{2 \phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.19098}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\chi  \phi ^3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;4.04057&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{10,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;69.8{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{60}{11}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi  c_{4,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1+\sqrt{5}}{2 \sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.14412&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\phi }{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{\phi ^2}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.30902}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^3&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;4.23607&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{11,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;72{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{6}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{5\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{5\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\frac{1}{\phi }} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\frac{2}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.17557&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3-\phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3-\phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.38197}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2} \sqrt{3-\phi } \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;4.3525&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{12,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;75.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{24}{5}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.22474&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;4.53457&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{13,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;81.1{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{60}{13}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{9-\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{9-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.30038&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{9-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{4} \left(9-\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.69098}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2} \left(9-\sqrt{5}\right)} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;4.8146&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{14,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;84.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{40}{9}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\phi } c_{8,1}}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{1+\sqrt{5}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.345&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\phi }}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{\sqrt{5} \phi }{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.80902}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\phi ^5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;4.9798&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{15,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;90.0{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{7}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{4\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{4\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2 c_{4,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.41421&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2 \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;5.23607&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{16,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;95.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{120}{29}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{11-\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{11-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.4802&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{11-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{4} \left(11-\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.19098}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2} \left(11-\sqrt{5}\right)} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;5.48037&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{17,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;98.9{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{120}{31}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{7+\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{7+\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.51954&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{7+\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{4} \left(7+\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.30902}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\psi  \phi ^5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;5.62605&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{18,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;104.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{8}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{15}{4}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.58114&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{5} \sqrt{\phi ^4}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;5.8541&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{19,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;108.0{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{9}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{10}{3}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{3,1}+c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \left(1+\sqrt{5}\right)&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.61803&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi &lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1+\phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.61803}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2} \phi ^3&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;5.9907&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{20,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;110.2{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{120}{7}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{13-\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{13-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.64042&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{13-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{4} \left(13-\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.69098}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2 \sqrt{8-\phi ^2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.07359&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{21,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;113.9{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{60}{19}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}+\frac{1}{1+\sqrt{5}}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}+\frac{1}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.67601&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}+\frac{1}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}+\frac{1}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.80902}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2 \sqrt{8-\frac{\chi }{\phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.20537&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{22,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;120{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{10}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{3\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{3\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.73205&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{6} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.41285&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{23,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;124.0{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{120}{41}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{\phi }+\frac{5}{2}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}+\frac{2}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.7658&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{4-\frac{\psi }{2 \phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{4-\frac{\psi }{2 \phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.11803}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\chi  \phi ^5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.53779&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{24,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;130.9{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{20}{7}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{11+\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{11+\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.81907&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{11+\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{4} \left(11+\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.30902}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2 \sqrt{8-\frac{\sqrt{5}}{\phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.73503&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{25,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;135.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{11}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{11}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{7+3 \sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{7+3 \sqrt{5}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.85123&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\phi ^2}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{\phi ^4}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.42705}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^4&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.8541&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{26,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;138.6{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{12}{5}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{7}{2}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{7}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.87083&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{7}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{7}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{7} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.92667&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{27,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;144{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{12}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{5}{2}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2} \left(5+\sqrt{5}\right)} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2} \left(5+\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.90211&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\phi +2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2+\phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.61803}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2 \sqrt{2 \phi +4}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;7.0425&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{28,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;154.8{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{13}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{13}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{13+\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{13+\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.95167&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{13+\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{4} \left(13+\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.80902}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2 \sqrt{8-\frac{1}{\phi ^2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;7.22598&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{29,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;164.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{14}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{15}{7}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi  c_{12,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{\frac{3}{2}} \left(1+\sqrt{5}\right)&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.98168&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}} \phi &lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3 \phi ^2}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.92705}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3} \phi ^3&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;7.33708&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{30,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;180{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{15}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{2\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{2\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2 c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2.&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{4}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{4.}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2 \sqrt{2} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;7.40492&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|rowspan=4 colspan=6|
|rowspan=4 colspan=4|
&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; is the golden ratio:&lt;br&gt;
&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2-\phi -1=0&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;&lt;br&gt;
&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\phi }+1=\phi&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;, and: &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi+1=\phi^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;&lt;br&gt;
&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\phi }::1::\phi ::\phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;&lt;br&gt;
&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1/\phi&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; and &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; are the golden sections of &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;:&lt;br&gt;
&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi +\frac{1}{\phi }=\sqrt{5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|colspan=2|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi = (\sqrt{5} + 1)/2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.618034&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|colspan=2|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\chi = (3\sqrt{5} + 1)/2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;3.854102&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|colspan=2|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\psi = (3\sqrt{5} - 1)/2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2.854102&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|colspan=2|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\psi = 11/\chi = 22/(3\sqrt{5} + 1)&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2.854102&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|}

...

== The 8-point regular polytopes ==
In 2-space we have the regular 8-point octagon, in 3-space the regular 8-point cube, and in 4-space the regular 8-point [[W:16-cell|16-cell]].

A planar octagon with rigid edges of unit length has chords of length:

:&lt;math&gt;r_1=1,r_2=\sqrt{2+\sqrt{2}} \approx 1.84776,r_3=1+\sqrt{2} \approx 2.41421,r_4=\sqrt{4 + \sqrt{8}} \approx 2.61313&lt;/math&gt;

The chord ratio &lt;math&gt;r_3=1+\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt; is a geometrical proportion, the [[W:Silver ratio|silver ratio]]. Fontaine and Hurley's procedure for obtaining the reciprocal of a chord tells us that:

:&lt;math&gt;r_3-r_1-r_1=1/r_3 \approx 0.41421&lt;/math&gt;

Notice that &lt;math&gt;1/r_3=\sqrt{2}-1=r_3-2&lt;/math&gt;.

If we embed this planar octagon in 3-space, we can make it skew, repositioning its vertices so that each is one unit-edge length distant from three others instead of two others, so we obtain a unit-edge cube with chords of length:

:&lt;math&gt;r_1=1, r_2=\sqrt{2}, r_3=\sqrt{3}, r_4=\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;

If we embed this cube in 4-space, we can skew it some more, repositioning its vertices so that each is one unit-edge length distant from six others instead of three others, so we obtain a unit-edge 4-polytope with chords of length:

:&lt;math&gt;r_1=1,r_2=1,r_3=1,r_4=\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;

All of its chords except its long diameters are the same unit length as its edge. In fact they are its 24 edges, and it is a 16-cell of radius &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1/\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;.

[[File:octagon16cell.png|thumb|Orthogonal projection of a regular 16-cell to the [[16-cell#Projections|B&lt;sub&gt;4&lt;/sub&gt; Coxeter plane]]. Only its edges are shown; its long diameter chords are not drawn. All 24 edges are the same length. Only the edges of the two disjoint squares lie parallel to the view plane, in completely orthogonal central planes.]]

The [[16-cell]] is the [[W:Regular convex 4-polytope|regular convex 4-polytope]] with [[W:Schläfli symbol|Schläfli symbol]] {3,3,4}. It has 8 vertices, 24 edges, 32 equilateral triangle faces, and 16 regular tetrahedron cells. It is the [[16-cell#Octahedral dipyramid|four-dimensional analogue of the octahedron]], and each of its four orthogonal central hyperplanes is an octahedron.

The only planar regular polygons found in the 16-cell are face triangles and central plane squares, but the 16-cell also contains a regular skew octagon, its [[W:Petrie polygon|Petrie polygon]]. The chords of this regular octagon, which lies skew in 4-space, are those given above for the 16-cell, as opposed to those for the cube or the regular octagon in the plane. The 16-cell has 3 such Petrie octagons, which share the same 8 vertices but have disjoint sets of 8 edges each.

The regular octad has higher symmetry in 4-space than it does in 2-space. The 16-cell is the 4-orthoplex, the simplest regular 4-polytope after the [[5-cell|4-simplex]]. All the larger regular 4-polytopes, including the 120-cell, are compounds of the 16-cell. The regular octagon exhibits this high symmetry only when embedded in 4-space at the vertices of the 16-cell.

The 16-cell constitutes an [[W:Orthonormal basis|orthonormal basis]] for the choice of a 4-dimensional Cartesian reference frame, because its vertices define four orthogonal axes. The eight vertices of a unit-radius 16-cell are (±1, 0, 0, 0), (0, ±1, 0, 0), (0, 0, ±1, 0), (0, 0, 0, ±1). All vertices are connected by &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; edges except opposite pairs. In this convenient unit-radius 4-coordinate system, the original planar octagon we started with had chords of length:

:&lt;math&gt;r_1=\sqrt{2},r_2=\sqrt{2(2+\sqrt{2})} \approx 2.61313,r_3=2+\sqrt{2} \approx 3.41421,r_4=2 \sqrt{2+\sqrt{2}} \approx 3.69552&lt;/math&gt;

none of which chords occur in a 16-cell or 120-cell except &lt;math&gt;r_1=\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;. 

In the unit-radius 120-cell, the great square edge chord &lt;math&gt;c_{15} = \sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt; occurs in 675 distinct (75 disjoint) 16-cells. The vertex coordinates of each 16-cell form 6 central squares lying in 6 pairwise [[W:Orthogonal|orthogonal]] coordinate planes. Great squares in ''opposite'' planes that do not share an axis (e.g. in the ''xy'' and ''wz'' planes) are completely disjoint (they do not intersect at any vertices). These planes are [[W:Completely orthogonal|completely orthogonal]].{{Efn|name=Six orthogonal planes of the Cartesian basis}}

[[W:Rotations in 4-dimensional Euclidean space|Rotations in 4-dimensional Euclidean space]] can be seen as the composition of two 2-dimensional rotations in completely orthogonal planes. The general rotation in 4-space is a double rotation in pairs of completely orthogonal planes. Two completely orthogonal planes are called invariant planes of the rotation when all points in the plane rotate on circles that remain in the plane, even as the whole plane tilts sideways (like a coin flipping) into another plane. The two completely orthogonal rotations of each plane (like a wheel, and like a coin flipping) are simultaneous but independent, in that they are not geometrically constrained to turn at the same rate. However, the most circular kind of rotation (as opposed to an elliptical double rotation of a rigid spherical object) occurs when the invariant planes do rotate through the same angle in the same time interval. Such equi-angled double rotations are called [[w:SO(4)#Isoclinic_rotations|isoclinic]], also [[w:William_Kingdon_Clifford|Clifford]] displacements.

The 16-cell is the simplest possible frame in which to [[16-cell#Rotations|observe 4-dimensional rotations]] because its characteristic isoclinic rotations feature a single pair of invariant rotation planes. In the 16-cell an isoclinic rotation by 90° in any pair of invariant completely orthogonal square central planes takes every square central plane to its completely orthogonal square central plane, and takes every vertex to its antipodal vertex 180° degrees away. All the vertices move at once, displaced 180° in 8 orthogonal directions, and the rigid 16-cell assumes a new orientation in 4-space. The trajectory of each vertex is a one-eighth segment of its [[W:Geodesic|geodesic]] orbit. Its entire orbit traces a circular helix in 4-space, and also traces a great circle in one of the two completely orthogonal invariant rotation planes, as they tilt sideways into each other's plane. When the isoclinic rotation is continued in the same rotational direction through an additional 90°, each vertex is again displaced 180° to its antipodal position, but from the new orientation where the vertex is on the opposite side of the 16-cell departing in the opposite direction. In the course of a 720° isoclinic rotation each vertex departs from all 8 vertex positions just once, and returns to its original position.

== Hypercubes ==
The long diameter of the unit-edge [[W:Hypercube|hypercube]] of dimension &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;n&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; is &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{n}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;, so the unit-edge [[w:Tesseract|4-hypercube, the 16-point (8-cell) tesseract,]] has chords:
:&lt;math&gt;r_1=\sqrt{1},r_2=\sqrt{2},r_3=\sqrt{3},r_4=\sqrt{4}&lt;/math&gt;
Uniquely in its 4-dimensional case, the hypercube's edge length equals its radius, like the hexagon. We call such polytopes ''radially equilateral'', because they can be constructed from equilateral triangles which meet at their center, each contributing two radii and an edge. The cuboctahedron and the 24-cell are also radially equilateral.

The [[W:Tesseract|tesseract]] is the [[W:Regular convex 4-polytope|regular convex 4-polytope]] with [[W:Schläfli symbol|Schläfli symbol]] {4,3,3}. It has 16 vertices, 32 edges, 24 square faces, and 8 cube cells. It is the four-dimensional analogue of the cube.

The tesseract is the [[W:Dual polytope|dual polytope]] of the 16-cell. They have the same Petrie polygon, the regular octagon, but the tesseract contains 2 disjoint instances and 4 distinct instances of the skew octagon. We can construct the tesseract the way we constructed the 16-cell, by skewing a planar octagon's edges so they become edges of the 4-polytope. Because the tesseract has 16 vertices we will need two planar octagons, and to start we must embedded them in 4-space as completely orthogonal planes that intersect at only one point, their common center. Because the tesseract is radially equilateral (unlike the 16-cell), to build a unit-radius tesseract we start with our original octagon of unit-edge length, rather than the octagon of edge length &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; that we needed to build the unit-radius 16-cell.

For our tesseract construction we skew each planar octagon into a cube, so we have a compound of two completely orthogonal cubes. Provided the planes were completely orthogonal in 4-space and we skewed them both the same way, the 16 vertices will be the vertices of a tesseract with half of its 32 edges missing.

The 16-point tesseract is the convex hull of a compound of two 8-point 16-cells, in exact dimensional analogy to the way the 8-point cube is the convex hull of a [[W:Stellated octahedron|compound of two regular 4-point tetrahedra]]. The [[W:Demihypercube|demihypercubes]] occupy alternate vertices of the hypercubes. The diagonals of the square faces of the unit-radius tesseract are the &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; edges of two unit-radius 16-cells, which are also the edges of the square central planes.

Because the tesseract contains two 16-cells in alternate positions it has two sets of 6 orthogonal square central planes. Two angles are required to specify the relationship between two planes in 4-space. Pairs of planes within each 16-cell are 90° apart in one angle, and either 0° or 90° apart in the other angle. They are 90° apart in both angles if and only if they are completely orthogonal planes, 90° apart by isoclinic rotation, with no vertices in common and their corresponding vertices 180° apart. Otherwise they are 0° apart in one of the angles, 90° apart by simple rotation with their corresponding vertices 90° apart, and they intersect in one axis and lie in a common 3-dimensional hyperplane.{{Efn|A double rotation in which one of the two angles of rotation is 0°, so that one of the completely orthogonal invariant planes does not rotate, is called a simple rotation. Ordinary rotations observed in a 3-dimensional space are simple rotations.}}

A pair of square central planes from alternate 16-cells are 60° apart by isoclinic rotation, with their corresponding vertices 120° apart. The planes are not orthogonal or parallel, so they intersect in a line somewhere, but they have no vertices in common, they have no 3-dimensional hyperplane in common, and they cannot reach each other by simple rotation. Such pairs of objects are called [[W:Clifford parallel|Clifford parallel]] because all their corresponding pairs of vertices are the same distance apart, although they are not parallel in the usual sense, because they have a common center. Not only the alternate 16-cells' corresponding square central planes, but also the 16-cells themselves, are Clifford parallel objects.

We can rotate the tesseract isoclinically the way we rotated the 16-cell, by 90° in two completely orthogonal invariant square central planes, with the same effect on both alternate 16-cells. In the course of a 720° isoclinic rotation in invariant square central planes each vertex departs from all 8 vertex positions of its 16-cell just once and returns to its original position, but it does not visit the vertex positions of the other 16-cell. The skew octagon geodesic orbits of the 16 vertices are disjoint circular helixes, and those 16 circular helixes are Clifford parallel objects.

== The 24-cell ==
In 2-space we have the radially equilateral 6-point hexagon. In 3-space we have the radially equilateral 12-point cuboctahedron, with 4 hexagonal central planes. In 4-space we have the radially equilateral 24-point 24-cell, with 4 cuboctahedral central hyperplanes and 16 hexagonal central planes.

Great hexagons are a rounder choice than great squares for the invariant rotation planes in which to rotate a 4-polytope isoclinically. The complete hexagonal isoclinic revolution requires 720° like the complete square isoclinic revolution, but it is completed in 6 chordal steps of 120° each rather than 8 chordal steps of 180° each.

...

== The 600-cell ==

...

== Finally the 120-cell ==

...

== Conclusions ==

Fontaine and Hurley's discovery is more than a formula for the reciprocal of a regular ''n''-polygon diagonal. It also yields the discrete sequence of isocline chords of the distinct isoclinic rotation characteristic of a ''d''-dimensional regular polytope. The characteristic rotational chord sequence of the ''d''-polytope can be represented geometrically in two dimensions on a distinct star polygon, but it lies on a geodesic circle through ''d''-dimensional space. Fontaine and Hurley discovered the geodesic topology of polytopes generally. Their procedure will reveal the geodesics of arbitrary non-uniform polytopes, since it can be applied to a polytope of any dimensionality and irregularity, by first fitting the polytope to the smallest regular polygon whose chords include its chords.

Fontaine and Hurley's discovery of a chordal formula for isoclinic rotations closes the circuit on Kappraff and Adamson's discovery of a rotational connection between dynamical systems, Steinbach's golden fields, and Coxeter's Euclidean geometry of ''n'' dimensions. Application of the Fontaine and Hurley procedure in higher-dimensional spaces demonstrates why the connection exists: because polytope sequences generally, from Steinbach's golden polygon chord sequences, to chord sequences in isoclinic rotation helixes, to subsumption relations in the sequence of regular 4-polytopes, arise as expressions of the reflections and rotations of distinct Coxeter symmetry groups, when those various groups interact.

== Appendix: Sequence of regular 4-polytopes ==
{{Regular convex 4-polytopes|wiki=W:|columns=7}}

== Notes ==
{{Notelist}}

== Citations ==
{{Reflist}}

== References ==
{{Refbegin}}
* {{Cite journal | last=Steinbach | first=Peter | year=1997 | title=Golden fields: A case for the Heptagon | journal=Mathematics Magazine | volume=70 | issue=Feb 1997 | pages=22–31 | doi=10.1080/0025570X.1997.11996494 | jstor=2691048 | ref={{SfnRef|Steinbach|1997}} }}
* {{Cite journal | last=Steinbach | first=Peter | year=2000 | title=Sections Beyond Golden| journal=Bridges: Mathematical Connections in Art, Music and Science | issue=2000 | pages=35-44 | url=https://archive.bridgesmathart.org/2000/bridges2000-35.pdf | ref={{SfnRef|Steinbach|2000}}}}
* {{Cite journal | last1=Kappraff | first1=Jay | last2=Jablan | first2=Slavik | last3=Adamson | first3=Gary | last4=Sazdanovich | first4=Radmila | year=2004 | title=Golden Fields, Generalized Fibonacci Sequences, and Chaotic Matrices | journal=Forma | volume=19 | pages=367-387 | url=https://archive.bridgesmathart.org/2005/bridges2005-369.pdf | ref={{SfnRef|Kappraff, Jablan, Adamson &amp; Sazdanovich|2004}} }}
* {{Cite journal | last1=Kappraff | first1=Jay | last2=Adamson | first2=Gary | year=2004 | title=Polygons and Chaos | journal=Dynamical Systems and Geometric Theories | url=https://archive.bridgesmathart.org/2001/bridges2001-67.pdf | ref={{SfnRef|Kappraff &amp; Adamson|2004}} }}
* {{Cite journal | last1=Fontaine | first1=Anne | last2=Hurley | first2=Susan | year=2006 | title=Proof by Picture: Products and Reciprocals of Diagonal Length Ratios in the Regular Polygon | journal=Forum Geometricorum | volume=6 | pages=97-101 | url=https://scispace.com/pdf/proof-by-picture-products-and-reciprocals-of-diagonal-length-1aian8mgp9.pdf }}
{{Refend}}</text>
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    <revision>
      <id>2808105</id>
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      <text bytes="45840" sha1="123et2utdwwzbx52kfp0pd6a7qfu9ll" xml:space="preserve">{{align|center|David Brooks Christie}}
{{align|center|dc@samizdat.org}}
{{align|center|Draft in progress}}
{{align|center|January 2026 - April 2026}}

&lt;blockquote&gt;Steinbach discovered the formula for the ratios of diagonal to side in the regular polygons. Fontaine and Hurley extended this result, discovering a formula for the reciprocal of a regular polygon chord derived geometrically from the chord's star polygon. We observe that these findings in plane geometry apply more generally, to polytopes of any dimensionality. Fontaine and Hurley's geometric procedure for finding the reciprocals of the chords of a regular polygon from their star polygons also finds the rotational geodesics of any polytope of any dimensionality.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
== Introduction ==
Steinbach discovered the Diagonal Product Formula and the Golden Fields family of ratios of diagonal to side in the regular polygons. He showed how this family extends beyond the pentagon {5} with its well-known golden bisection proportional to 𝜙, finding that the heptagon {7} has an analogous trisection, the nonagon {9} has an analogous quadrasection, and the hendecagon {11} has an analogous pentasection, an extended family of golden proportions with quasiperiodic properties. 

Kappraff and Adamson extended these findings in plane geometry to a theory of Generalized Fibonacci Sequences, showing that the Golden Fields not only do not end with the hendecagon, they form an infinite number of periodic trajectories when operated on by the Mandelbrot operator. They found a relation between the edges of star polygons and dynamical systems in the state of chaos, revealing a connection between chaos theory, number, and rotations in Coxeter Euclidean geometry. 

Fontaine and Hurley examined Steinbach's finding that the length of each chord of a regular polygon is both the product of two chords and the sum of a set of smaller chords, so that in rotations to add is to multiply. They illustrated Steinbach's sets of additive chords lying parallel to each other in the plane (pointing in the same direction), and by applying Steinbach's formula more generally they found another summation relation of signed parallel chords (pointing in opposite directions) which relates each chord length to its reciprocal, and relates the summation to a distinct star polygon rotation. 

We examine these remarkable findings (which stem from study of the chords of humble regular polygons) in higher-dimensional spaces, specifically in the chords, polygons and rotations of the [[120-cell]], the largest four-dimensional regular convex polytope.

== Visualizing the 120-cell ==
{| class=&quot;wikitable floatright&quot; width=&quot;400&quot;
|style=&quot;vertical-align:top&quot;|[[File:120-cell.gif|200px]]&lt;br&gt;Orthographic projection of the 600-point 120-cell &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\{5,3,3\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; performing a [[W:SO(4)#Geometry of 4D rotations|simple rotation]].{{Sfn|Hise|2011|loc=File:120-cell.gif|ps=; &quot;Created by Jason Hise with Maya and Macromedia Fireworks. A 3D projection of a 120-cell performing a [[W:SO(4)#Geometry of 4D rotations|simple rotation]].&quot;}} In this simplified rendering only the 120-cell's own edges are shown; its 29 interior chords are not rendered. Therefore even though it is translucent, only its outer surface is visible. The complex interior parts of the 120-cell, all its inscribed 5-cells, 16-cells, 8-cells, 24-cells, 600-cells and its much larger inventory of polyhedra, are completely invisible in this view, as none of their edges are rendered at all.
|style=&quot;vertical-align:top&quot;|[[File:Ortho solid 016-uniform polychoron p33-t0.png|200px]]&lt;br&gt;Orthographic projection of the 600-point [[W:Great grand stellated 120-cell|great grand stellated 120-cell]] &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\{\tfrac{5}{2},3,3\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;.{{Sfn|Ruen: Great grand stellated 120-cell|2007}} The 120-cell is its convex hull. The projection to the left renders only the 120-cell's shortest chord, its 1200 edges. The projection above also renders only one of the 120-cell's 30 chords, the edges of its 120 inscribed regular 5-cells. The 120-cell itself (the convex hull) is invisible in this view, as its edges are not rendered.
|}

[[120-cell#Geometry|The 120-cell is the maximally complex regular 4-polytope]], containing inscribed instances of every regular 1-, 2-, 3-, and 4-polytope, except the regular polygons of more than {15} sides. 

The 120-cell is the convex hull of a regular [[120-cell#Relationships among interior polytopes|compound of each of the 6 regular convex 4-polytopes]]. They are the [[5-cell|5-point (5-cell) 4-simplex]], the [[16-cell|8-point (16-cell) 4-orthoplex]], the [[W:Tesseract|16-point (8-cell) tesseract]], the [[24-cell|24-point (24-cell)]], the [[600-cell|120-point (600-cell)]], and the [[120-cell|600-point (120-cell)]]. The 120-cell is the convex hull of a compound of 120 disjoint regular 5-cells, of 75 disjoint 16-cells, of 25 disjoint 24-cells, and of 5 disjoint 600-cells.

The 120-cell contains an even larger inventory of irregular polytopes, created by the intersection of multiple instances of these component regular 4-polytopes. Many are quite unexpected, because they do not occur as components of any regular polytope smaller than the 120-cell. As just one example among the [[120-cell#Concentric hulls|sections of the 120-cell]], there is an irregular 24-point polyhedron with 16 triangle faces and 4 nonagon {9} faces.{{Sfn|Moxness|}}

Most renderings of the 120-cell, like the rotating projection here, only illustrate its outer surface, which is a honeycomb of face-bonded dodecahedral cells. Only the objects in its 3-dimensional surface are rendered, namely the 120 dodecahedra, their pentagon faces, and their edges. Although the 120-cell has chords of 30 distinct lengths, in this kind of simplified rendering only the 120-cell's own edges (its shortest chord) are shown. Its 29 interior chords, the edges of objects in the interior of the 120-cell, are not rendered, so interior objects are not visible at all.

Visualizing the complete interior of the 600-vertex 120-cell in a single image is impractical because of its complexity. Only four 120-cell edges are incident at each vertex, but [[120-cell#Chords|600 chords (of all 30 lengths)]] are incident at ''each'' vertex.

== Compounds in the 120-cell ==
The 8-point (16-cell), not the 5-point (5-cell), is the smallest building block; it compounds to every larger regular 4-polytope. The 5-point (5-cell) does compound to the 600-point (120-cell), but it does not fit into any smaller regular 4-polytope. 

The 8-point (16-cell) compounds by 2 in the 16-point (8-cell), and by 3 in the 24-point (24-cell). The 16-point (8-cell) compounds in the 24-point (24-cell) by 3 non-disjoint instances of itself, with each of the 24 vertices shared by two 16-point (8-cells). The 24-point (24-cell) compounds by 5 disjoint instances of itself in the 120-point (600-cell), and the 120-point (600-cell) compounds by 5 disjoint instances of itself in the 600-point (120-cell).

The 24-point (24-cell) also compounds by &lt;math&gt;5^2&lt;/math&gt; non-disjoint instances of itself in the 120-point (600-cell); it compounds in 5 disjoint instances of itself, 10 (not 5) different ways. Whichever set of 5 disjoint 24-point (24-cells) are assembled, the resulting 120-point (600-cell) contains 25 distinct 24-point (24-cells), not just 5 (or 10). This implies that 15 disjoint 8-point (16-cells) will construct a 120-point (600-cell), which will contain 75 distinct 8-point (16-cells). 

The 600-point (120-cell) is 5 disjoint 120-point (600-cells), just 2 different ways (not 5 or 10 ways), so it is 10 distinct 120-point (600-cells). This implies that the 8-point (16-cell) compounds by 3 times &lt;math&gt;5^2&lt;/math&gt; (75) disjoint instances of itself in the 600-point (120-cell), which contains &lt;math&gt;3^2&lt;/math&gt; times  &lt;math&gt;5^2&lt;/math&gt; (225) distinct instances of the 24-point (24-cell), and  &lt;math&gt;3^3&lt;/math&gt; times &lt;math&gt;5^2&lt;/math&gt; (675) distinct instances of the 8-point (16-cell). 

These facts were discovered painstakingly by various researchers, and no one has found a general rule governing subsumption relations among regular polytopes. The reasons for some of their numeric incidence relations are far from obvious. [[W:Pieter Hendrik Schoute|Schoute]] was the first to see that the 120-point (600-cell) is a compound of 5 24-point (24-cells) ''10 different ways'', and after he saw it a hundred years lapsed until Denney, Hooker, Johnson, Robinson, Butler &amp; Claiborne proved his result, and showed why.{{Sfn|Denney, Hooker, Johnson, Robinson, Butler &amp; Claiborne|2020|loc=''The geometry of H4 polytopes''}}

So much for the compounds of 16-cells. The 120-cell is also the convex hull of the compound of 120 disjoint regular 5-cells. That stellated compound (without its convex hull of 120-cell edges) is the [[w:Great_grand_stellated_120-cell|great grand stellated 120-cell]] illustrated above, the final regular [[W:Stellation|stellation]] of the 120-cell, and the only [[W:Schläfli-Hess polychoron|regular star 4-polytope]] to have the 120-cell for its convex hull. The edges of the great grand stellated 120-cell are &lt;math&gt;\phi^6&lt;/math&gt; as long as those of its 120-cell [[W:List of polyhedral stellations#Stellation process|stellation core]] deep inside.

The compound of 120 disjoint 5-point (5-cells) can be seen to be equivalent to the compound of 5 disjoint 120-point (600-cells), as follows. Beginning with a single 120-point (600-cell), expand each vertex into a regular 5-cell, by adding 4 new equidistant vertices, such that the 5 vertices form a regular 5-cell inscribed in the 3-sphere. The 120 5-cells are disjoint, and the 600 vertices form 5 disjoint 120-point (600-cells): a 120-cell.

== Thirty distinguished distances ==
The 30 numbers listed in the table are all-important in Euclidean geometry. A case can be made on symmetry grounds that their squares are the 30 most important numbers between 0 and 4. The 30 rows of the table are the 30 distinct [[120-cell#Geodesic rectangles|chord lengths of the unit-radius 120-cell]], the largest regular convex 4-polytope. Since the 120-cell subsumes all smaller regular polytopes, its 30 chords are the complete chord set of all the regular polytopes that can be constructed in the first four dimensions of Euclidean space, except for regular polygons of more than 15 sides.

{| class=&quot;wikitable&quot; style=&quot;white-space:nowrap;text-align:center&quot;
!rowspan=2|&lt;math&gt;c_t&lt;/math&gt;
!rowspan=2|arc
!rowspan=2|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{n}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
!rowspan=2|&lt;math&gt;\left\{p\right\}&lt;/math&gt;
!rowspan=2|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;m\left\{\frac{k}{d}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
!rowspan=2|Steinbach roots
!colspan=7|Chord lengths of the unit 120-cell
|-
!colspan=5|unit-radius length &lt;math&gt;c_t&lt;/math&gt;
!colspan=2|unit-edge length &lt;math&gt;c_t/c_1&lt;/math&gt;&lt;br&gt;in 120-cell of radius &lt;math&gt;c_8=\sqrt{2}\phi^2&lt;/math&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{1,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;15.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{30\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{30\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{4,1}-c_{2,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{7-3 \sqrt{5}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.270091&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\sqrt{2} \phi ^2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2 \phi ^4}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.072949}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{2,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;25.2{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{2}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2 \left\{15\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \left(c_{18,1}-c_{4,1}\right)&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{3-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.437016&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\sqrt{2} \phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2 \phi ^2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.190983}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi &lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.61803&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{3,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;36{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{3}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{10\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;3 \left\{\frac{10}{3}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \left(\sqrt{5}-1\right) c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \left(\sqrt{5}-1\right)&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.618034&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{\phi ^2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.381966}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2} \phi &lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2.28825&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{4,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;41.4{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{60}{7}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{c_{8,1}}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.707107&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2.61803&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{5,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;44.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{4}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2 \left\{\frac{15}{2}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3} c_{2,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{9-3 \sqrt{5}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.756934&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}}}{\phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2 \phi ^2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.572949}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3} \phi &lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2.80252&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{6,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;49.1{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{120}{17}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{5-\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{5-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.831254&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\frac{1}{\phi }}}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{\sqrt{5}}{2 \phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.690983}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\phi ^3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;3.07768&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{7,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;56.0{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{20}{3}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}-\frac{1}{\phi }} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}-\frac{2}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.93913&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{\frac{\psi }{\phi }}}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{\psi }{2 \phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.881966}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\psi  \phi ^3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;3.47709&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;60{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{5}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{6\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{6\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;3.70246&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{9,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;66.1{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{40}{7}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}-\frac{1}{2 \phi }} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}-\frac{1}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.09132&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{\frac{\chi }{\phi }}}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{\chi }{2 \phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.19098}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\chi  \phi ^3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;4.04057&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{10,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;69.8{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{60}{11}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi  c_{4,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1+\sqrt{5}}{2 \sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.14412&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\phi }{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{\phi ^2}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.30902}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^3&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;4.23607&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{11,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;72{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{6}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{5\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{5\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\frac{1}{\phi }} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\frac{2}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.17557&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3-\phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3-\phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.38197}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2} \sqrt{3-\phi } \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;4.3525&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{12,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;75.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{24}{5}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.22474&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;4.53457&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{13,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;81.1{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{60}{13}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{9-\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{9-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.30038&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{9-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{4} \left(9-\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.69098}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2} \left(9-\sqrt{5}\right)} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;4.8146&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{14,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;84.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{40}{9}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\phi } c_{8,1}}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{1+\sqrt{5}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.345&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\phi }}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{\sqrt{5} \phi }{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.80902}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\phi ^5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;4.9798&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{15,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;90.0{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{7}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{4\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{4\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2 c_{4,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.41421&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2 \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;5.23607&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{16,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;95.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{120}{29}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{11-\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{11-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.4802&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{11-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{4} \left(11-\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.19098}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2} \left(11-\sqrt{5}\right)} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;5.48037&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{17,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;98.9{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{120}{31}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{7+\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{7+\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.51954&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{7+\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{4} \left(7+\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.30902}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\psi  \phi ^5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;5.62605&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{18,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;104.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{8}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{15}{4}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.58114&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{5} \sqrt{\phi ^4}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;5.8541&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{19,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;108.0{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{9}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{10}{3}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{3,1}+c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \left(1+\sqrt{5}\right)&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.61803&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi &lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1+\phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.61803}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2} \phi ^3&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;5.9907&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{20,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;110.2{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{120}{7}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{13-\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{13-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.64042&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{13-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{4} \left(13-\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.69098}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2 \sqrt{8-\phi ^2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.07359&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{21,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;113.9{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{60}{19}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}+\frac{1}{1+\sqrt{5}}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}+\frac{1}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.67601&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}+\frac{1}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}+\frac{1}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.80902}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2 \sqrt{8-\frac{\chi }{\phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.20537&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{22,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;120{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{10}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{3\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{3\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.73205&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{6} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.41285&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{23,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;124.0{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{120}{41}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{\phi }+\frac{5}{2}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}+\frac{2}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.7658&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{4-\frac{\psi }{2 \phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{4-\frac{\psi }{2 \phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.11803}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\chi  \phi ^5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.53779&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{24,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;130.9{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{20}{7}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{11+\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{11+\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.81907&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{11+\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{4} \left(11+\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.30902}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2 \sqrt{8-\frac{\sqrt{5}}{\phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.73503&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{25,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;135.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{11}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{11}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{7+3 \sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{7+3 \sqrt{5}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.85123&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\phi ^2}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{\phi ^4}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.42705}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^4&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.8541&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{26,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;138.6{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{12}{5}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{7}{2}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{7}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.87083&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{7}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{7}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{7} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.92667&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{27,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;144{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{12}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{5}{2}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2} \left(5+\sqrt{5}\right)} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2} \left(5+\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.90211&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\phi +2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2+\phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.61803}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2 \sqrt{2 \phi +4}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;7.0425&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{28,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;154.8{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{13}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{13}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{13+\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{13+\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.95167&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{13+\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{4} \left(13+\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.80902}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2 \sqrt{8-\frac{1}{\phi ^2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;7.22598&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{29,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;164.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{14}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{15}{7}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi  c_{12,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{\frac{3}{2}} \left(1+\sqrt{5}\right)&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.98168&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}} \phi &lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3 \phi ^2}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.92705}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3} \phi ^3&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;7.33708&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{30,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;180{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{15}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{2\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{2\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2 c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2.&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{4}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{4.}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2 \sqrt{2} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;7.40492&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|rowspan=4 colspan=6|
|rowspan=4 colspan=4|
&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; is the golden ratio:&lt;br&gt;
&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2-\phi -1=0&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;&lt;br&gt;
&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\phi }+1=\phi&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;, and: &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi+1=\phi^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;&lt;br&gt;
&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\phi }::1::\phi ::\phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;&lt;br&gt;
&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1/\phi&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; and &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; are the golden sections of &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;:&lt;br&gt;
&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi +\frac{1}{\phi }=\sqrt{5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|colspan=2|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi = (\sqrt{5} + 1)/2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.618034&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|colspan=2|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\chi = (3\sqrt{5} + 1)/2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;3.854102&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|colspan=2|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\psi = (3\sqrt{5} - 1)/2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2.854102&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|colspan=2|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\psi = 11/\chi = 22/(3\sqrt{5} + 1)&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2.854102&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|}

...

== The 8-point regular polytopes ==
In 2-space we have the regular 8-point octagon, in 3-space the regular 8-point cube, and in 4-space the regular 8-point [[W:16-cell|16-cell]].

A planar octagon with rigid edges of unit length has chords of length:

:&lt;math&gt;r_1=1,r_2=\sqrt{2+\sqrt{2}} \approx 1.84776,r_3=1+\sqrt{2} \approx 2.41421,r_4=\sqrt{4 + \sqrt{8}} \approx 2.61313&lt;/math&gt;

The chord ratio &lt;math&gt;r_3=1+\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt; is a geometrical proportion, the [[W:Silver ratio|silver ratio]]. Fontaine and Hurley's procedure for obtaining the reciprocal of a chord tells us that:

:&lt;math&gt;r_3-r_1-r_1=1/r_3 \approx 0.41421&lt;/math&gt;

Notice that &lt;math&gt;1/r_3=\sqrt{2}-1=r_3-2&lt;/math&gt;.

If we embed this planar octagon in 3-space, we can make it skew, repositioning its vertices so that each is one unit-edge length distant from three others instead of two others, so we obtain a unit-edge cube with chords of length:

:&lt;math&gt;r_1=1, r_2=\sqrt{2}, r_3=\sqrt{3}, r_4=\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;

If we embed this cube in 4-space, we can skew it some more, repositioning its vertices so that each is one unit-edge length distant from six others instead of three others, so we obtain a unit-edge 4-polytope with chords of length:

:&lt;math&gt;r_1=1,r_2=1,r_3=1,r_4=\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;

All of its chords except its long diameters are the same unit length as its edge. In fact they are its 24 edges, and it is a 16-cell of radius &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1/\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;.

[[File:octagon16cell.png|thumb|Orthogonal projection of a regular 16-cell to the [[16-cell#Projections|B&lt;sub&gt;4&lt;/sub&gt; Coxeter plane]]. Only its edges are shown; its long diameter chords are not drawn. All 24 edges are the same length. Only the edges of the two disjoint squares lie parallel to the view plane, in completely orthogonal central planes.]]

The [[16-cell]] is the [[W:Regular convex 4-polytope|regular convex 4-polytope]] with [[W:Schläfli symbol|Schläfli symbol]] {3,3,4}. It has 8 vertices, 24 edges, 32 equilateral triangle faces, and 16 regular tetrahedron cells. It is the [[16-cell#Octahedral dipyramid|four-dimensional analogue of the octahedron]], and each of its four orthogonal central hyperplanes is an octahedron.

The only planar regular polygons found in the 16-cell are face triangles and central plane squares, but the 16-cell also contains a regular skew octagon, its [[W:Petrie polygon|Petrie polygon]]. The chords of this regular octagon, which lies skew in 4-space, are those given above for the 16-cell, as opposed to those for the cube or the regular octagon in the plane. The 16-cell has 6 such Petrie octagons, which share the same 8 vertices but have distinct sets of 8 edges each.

The regular octad has higher symmetry in 4-space than it does in 2-space. The 16-cell is the 4-orthoplex, the simplest regular 4-polytope after the [[5-cell|4-simplex]]. All the larger regular 4-polytopes, including the 120-cell, are compounds of the 16-cell. The regular octagon exhibits this high symmetry only when embedded in 4-space at the vertices of the 16-cell.

The 16-cell constitutes an [[W:Orthonormal basis|orthonormal basis]] for the choice of a 4-dimensional Cartesian reference frame, because its vertices define four orthogonal axes. The eight vertices of a unit-radius 16-cell are (±1, 0, 0, 0), (0, ±1, 0, 0), (0, 0, ±1, 0), (0, 0, 0, ±1). All vertices are connected by &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; edges except opposite pairs. In this convenient unit-radius 4-coordinate system, the original planar octagon we started with had chords of length:

:&lt;math&gt;r_1=\sqrt{2},r_2=\sqrt{2(2+\sqrt{2})} \approx 2.61313,r_3=2+\sqrt{2} \approx 3.41421,r_4=2 \sqrt{2+\sqrt{2}} \approx 3.69552&lt;/math&gt;

none of which chords occur in a 16-cell or 120-cell except &lt;math&gt;r_1=\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;. 

In the unit-radius 120-cell, the great square edge chord &lt;math&gt;c_{15} = \sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt; occurs in 675 distinct (75 disjoint) 16-cells. The vertex coordinates of each 16-cell form 6 central squares lying in 6 pairwise [[W:Orthogonal|orthogonal]] coordinate planes. Great squares in ''opposite'' planes that do not share an axis (e.g. in the ''xy'' and ''wz'' planes) are completely disjoint (they do not intersect at any vertices). These planes are [[W:Completely orthogonal|completely orthogonal]].{{Efn|name=Six orthogonal planes of the Cartesian basis}}

[[W:Rotations in 4-dimensional Euclidean space|Rotations in 4-dimensional Euclidean space]] can be seen as the composition of two 2-dimensional rotations in completely orthogonal planes. The general rotation in 4-space is a double rotation in pairs of completely orthogonal planes. Two completely orthogonal planes are called invariant planes of the rotation when all points in the plane rotate on circles that remain in the plane, even as the whole plane tilts sideways (like a coin flipping) into another plane. The two completely orthogonal rotations of each plane (like a wheel, and like a coin flipping) are simultaneous but independent, in that they are not geometrically constrained to turn at the same rate. However, the most circular kind of rotation (as opposed to an elliptical double rotation of a rigid spherical object) occurs when the invariant planes do rotate through the same angle in the same time interval. Such equi-angled double rotations are called [[w:SO(4)#Isoclinic_rotations|isoclinic]], also [[w:William_Kingdon_Clifford|Clifford]] displacements.

The 16-cell is the simplest possible frame in which to [[16-cell#Rotations|observe 4-dimensional rotations]] because its characteristic isoclinic rotations feature a single pair of invariant rotation planes. In the 16-cell an isoclinic rotation by 90° in any pair of invariant completely orthogonal square central planes takes every square central plane to its completely orthogonal square central plane, and takes every vertex to its antipodal vertex 180° degrees away. All the vertices move at once, displaced 180° in 8 orthogonal directions, and the rigid 16-cell assumes a new orientation in 4-space. The trajectory of each vertex is a one-eighth segment of its [[W:Geodesic|geodesic]] orbit. Its entire orbit traces a circular helix in 4-space, and also traces a great circle in one of the two completely orthogonal invariant rotation planes, as they tilt sideways into each other's plane. When the isoclinic rotation is continued in the same rotational direction through an additional 90°, each vertex is again displaced 180° to its antipodal position, but from the new orientation where the vertex is on the opposite side of the 16-cell departing in the opposite direction. In the course of a 720° isoclinic rotation each vertex departs from all 8 vertex positions just once, and returns to its original position.

== Hypercubes ==
The long diameter of the unit-edge [[W:Hypercube|hypercube]] of dimension &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;n&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; is &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{n}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;, so the unit-edge [[w:Tesseract|4-hypercube, the 16-point (8-cell) tesseract,]] has chords:
:&lt;math&gt;r_1=\sqrt{1},r_2=\sqrt{2},r_3=\sqrt{3},r_4=\sqrt{4}&lt;/math&gt;
Uniquely in its 4-dimensional case, the hypercube's edge length equals its radius, like the hexagon. We call such polytopes ''radially equilateral'', because they can be constructed from equilateral triangles which meet at their center, each contributing two radii and an edge. The cuboctahedron and the 24-cell are also radially equilateral.

The [[W:Tesseract|tesseract]] is the [[W:Regular convex 4-polytope|regular convex 4-polytope]] with [[W:Schläfli symbol|Schläfli symbol]] {4,3,3}. It has 16 vertices, 32 edges, 24 square faces, and 8 cube cells. It is the four-dimensional analogue of the cube.

The tesseract is the [[W:Dual polytope|dual polytope]] of the 16-cell. They have the same Petrie polygon, the regular octagon, but the tesseract contains 2 disjoint instances and 4 distinct instances of the skew octagon. We can construct the tesseract the way we constructed the 16-cell, by skewing a planar octagon's edges so they become edges of the 4-polytope. Because the tesseract has 16 vertices we will need two planar octagons, and to start we must embedded them in 4-space as completely orthogonal planes that intersect at only one point, their common center. Because the tesseract is radially equilateral (unlike the 16-cell), to build a unit-radius tesseract we start with our original octagon of unit-edge length, rather than the octagon of edge length &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; that we needed to build the unit-radius 16-cell.

For our tesseract construction we skew each planar octagon into a cube, so we have a compound of two completely orthogonal cubes. Provided the planes were completely orthogonal in 4-space and we skewed them both the same way, the 16 vertices will be the vertices of a tesseract with half of its 32 edges missing.

The 16-point tesseract is the convex hull of a compound of two 8-point 16-cells, in exact dimensional analogy to the way the 8-point cube is the convex hull of a [[W:Stellated octahedron|compound of two regular 4-point tetrahedra]]. The [[W:Demihypercube|demihypercubes]] occupy alternate vertices of the hypercubes. The diagonals of the square faces of the unit-radius tesseract are the &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; edges of two unit-radius 16-cells, which are also the edges of the square central planes.

Because the tesseract contains two 16-cells in alternate positions it has two sets of 6 orthogonal square central planes. Two angles are required to specify the relationship between two planes in 4-space. Pairs of planes within each 16-cell are 90° apart in one angle, and either 0° or 90° apart in the other angle. They are 90° apart in both angles if and only if they are completely orthogonal planes, 90° apart by isoclinic rotation, with no vertices in common and their corresponding vertices 180° apart. Otherwise they are 0° apart in one of the angles, 90° apart by simple rotation with their corresponding vertices 90° apart, and they intersect in one axis and lie in a common 3-dimensional hyperplane.{{Efn|A double rotation in which one of the two angles of rotation is 0°, so that one of the completely orthogonal invariant planes does not rotate, is called a simple rotation. Ordinary rotations observed in a 3-dimensional space are simple rotations.}}

A pair of square central planes from alternate 16-cells are 60° apart by isoclinic rotation, with their corresponding vertices 120° apart. The planes are not orthogonal or parallel, so they intersect in a line somewhere, but they have no vertices in common, they have no 3-dimensional hyperplane in common, and they cannot reach each other by simple rotation. Such pairs of objects are called [[W:Clifford parallel|Clifford parallel]] because all their corresponding pairs of vertices are the same distance apart, although they are not parallel in the usual sense, because they have a common center. Not only the alternate 16-cells' corresponding square central planes, but also the 16-cells themselves, are Clifford parallel objects.

We can rotate the tesseract isoclinically the way we rotated the 16-cell, by 90° in two completely orthogonal invariant square central planes, with the same effect on both alternate 16-cells. In the course of a 720° isoclinic rotation in invariant square central planes each vertex departs from all 8 vertex positions of its 16-cell just once and returns to its original position, but it does not visit the vertex positions of the other 16-cell. The skew octagon geodesic orbits of the 16 vertices are disjoint circular helixes, and those 16 circular helixes are Clifford parallel objects.

== The 24-cell ==
In 2-space we have the radially equilateral 6-point hexagon. In 3-space we have the radially equilateral 12-point cuboctahedron, with 4 hexagonal central planes. In 4-space we have the radially equilateral 24-point 24-cell, with 4 cuboctahedral central hyperplanes and 16 hexagonal central planes.

Great hexagons are a rounder choice than great squares for the invariant rotation planes in which to rotate a 4-polytope isoclinically. The complete hexagonal isoclinic revolution requires 720° like the complete square isoclinic revolution, but it is completed in 6 chordal steps of 120° each rather than 8 chordal steps of 180° each.

...

== The 600-cell ==

...

== Finally the 120-cell ==

...

== Conclusions ==

Fontaine and Hurley's discovery is more than a formula for the reciprocal of a regular ''n''-polygon diagonal. It also yields the discrete sequence of isocline chords of the distinct isoclinic rotation characteristic of a ''d''-dimensional regular polytope. The characteristic rotational chord sequence of the ''d''-polytope can be represented geometrically in two dimensions on a distinct star polygon, but it lies on a geodesic circle through ''d''-dimensional space. Fontaine and Hurley discovered the geodesic topology of polytopes generally. Their procedure will reveal the geodesics of arbitrary non-uniform polytopes, since it can be applied to a polytope of any dimensionality and irregularity, by first fitting the polytope to the smallest regular polygon whose chords include its chords.

Fontaine and Hurley's discovery of a chordal formula for isoclinic rotations closes the circuit on Kappraff and Adamson's discovery of a rotational connection between dynamical systems, Steinbach's golden fields, and Coxeter's Euclidean geometry of ''n'' dimensions. Application of the Fontaine and Hurley procedure in higher-dimensional spaces demonstrates why the connection exists: because polytope sequences generally, from Steinbach's golden polygon chord sequences, to chord sequences in isoclinic rotation helixes, to subsumption relations in the sequence of regular 4-polytopes, arise as expressions of the reflections and rotations of distinct Coxeter symmetry groups, when those various groups interact.

== Appendix: Sequence of regular 4-polytopes ==
{{Regular convex 4-polytopes|wiki=W:|columns=7}}

== Notes ==
{{Notelist}}

== Citations ==
{{Reflist}}

== References ==
{{Refbegin}}
* {{Cite journal | last=Steinbach | first=Peter | year=1997 | title=Golden fields: A case for the Heptagon | journal=Mathematics Magazine | volume=70 | issue=Feb 1997 | pages=22–31 | doi=10.1080/0025570X.1997.11996494 | jstor=2691048 | ref={{SfnRef|Steinbach|1997}} }}
* {{Cite journal | last=Steinbach | first=Peter | year=2000 | title=Sections Beyond Golden| journal=Bridges: Mathematical Connections in Art, Music and Science | issue=2000 | pages=35-44 | url=https://archive.bridgesmathart.org/2000/bridges2000-35.pdf | ref={{SfnRef|Steinbach|2000}}}}
* {{Cite journal | last1=Kappraff | first1=Jay | last2=Jablan | first2=Slavik | last3=Adamson | first3=Gary | last4=Sazdanovich | first4=Radmila | year=2004 | title=Golden Fields, Generalized Fibonacci Sequences, and Chaotic Matrices | journal=Forma | volume=19 | pages=367-387 | url=https://archive.bridgesmathart.org/2005/bridges2005-369.pdf | ref={{SfnRef|Kappraff, Jablan, Adamson &amp; Sazdanovich|2004}} }}
* {{Cite journal | last1=Kappraff | first1=Jay | last2=Adamson | first2=Gary | year=2004 | title=Polygons and Chaos | journal=Dynamical Systems and Geometric Theories | url=https://archive.bridgesmathart.org/2001/bridges2001-67.pdf | ref={{SfnRef|Kappraff &amp; Adamson|2004}} }}
* {{Cite journal | last1=Fontaine | first1=Anne | last2=Hurley | first2=Susan | year=2006 | title=Proof by Picture: Products and Reciprocals of Diagonal Length Ratios in the Regular Polygon | journal=Forum Geometricorum | volume=6 | pages=97-101 | url=https://scispace.com/pdf/proof-by-picture-products-and-reciprocals-of-diagonal-length-1aian8mgp9.pdf }}
{{Refend}}</text>
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    <revision>
      <id>2808106</id>
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      <contributor>
        <username>Dc.samizdat</username>
        <id>2856930</id>
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      <text bytes="45876" sha1="9nncyk00ude3e9y9q4sjpjwlgzgxthu" xml:space="preserve">{{align|center|David Brooks Christie}}
{{align|center|dc@samizdat.org}}
{{align|center|Draft in progress}}
{{align|center|January 2026 - April 2026}}

&lt;blockquote&gt;Steinbach discovered the formula for the ratios of diagonal to side in the regular polygons. Fontaine and Hurley extended this result, discovering a formula for the reciprocal of a regular polygon chord derived geometrically from the chord's star polygon. We observe that these findings in plane geometry apply more generally, to polytopes of any dimensionality. Fontaine and Hurley's geometric procedure for finding the reciprocals of the chords of a regular polygon from their star polygons also finds the rotational geodesics of any polytope of any dimensionality.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
== Introduction ==
Steinbach discovered the Diagonal Product Formula and the Golden Fields family of ratios of diagonal to side in the regular polygons. He showed how this family extends beyond the pentagon {5} with its well-known golden bisection proportional to 𝜙, finding that the heptagon {7} has an analogous trisection, the nonagon {9} has an analogous quadrasection, and the hendecagon {11} has an analogous pentasection, an extended family of golden proportions with quasiperiodic properties. 

Kappraff and Adamson extended these findings in plane geometry to a theory of Generalized Fibonacci Sequences, showing that the Golden Fields not only do not end with the hendecagon, they form an infinite number of periodic trajectories when operated on by the Mandelbrot operator. They found a relation between the edges of star polygons and dynamical systems in the state of chaos, revealing a connection between chaos theory, number, and rotations in Coxeter Euclidean geometry. 

Fontaine and Hurley examined Steinbach's finding that the length of each chord of a regular polygon is both the product of two chords and the sum of a set of smaller chords, so that in rotations to add is to multiply. They illustrated Steinbach's sets of additive chords lying parallel to each other in the plane (pointing in the same direction), and by applying Steinbach's formula more generally they found another summation relation of signed parallel chords (pointing in opposite directions) which relates each chord length to its reciprocal, and relates the summation to a distinct star polygon rotation. 

We examine these remarkable findings (which stem from study of the chords of humble regular polygons) in higher-dimensional spaces, specifically in the chords, polygons and rotations of the [[120-cell]], the largest four-dimensional regular convex polytope.

== Visualizing the 120-cell ==
{| class=&quot;wikitable floatright&quot; width=&quot;400&quot;
|style=&quot;vertical-align:top&quot;|[[File:120-cell.gif|200px]]&lt;br&gt;Orthographic projection of the 600-point 120-cell &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\{5,3,3\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; performing a [[W:SO(4)#Geometry of 4D rotations|simple rotation]].{{Sfn|Hise|2011|loc=File:120-cell.gif|ps=; &quot;Created by Jason Hise with Maya and Macromedia Fireworks. A 3D projection of a 120-cell performing a [[W:SO(4)#Geometry of 4D rotations|simple rotation]].&quot;}} In this simplified rendering only the 120-cell's own edges are shown; its 29 interior chords are not rendered. Therefore even though it is translucent, only its outer surface is visible. The complex interior parts of the 120-cell, all its inscribed 5-cells, 16-cells, 8-cells, 24-cells, 600-cells and its much larger inventory of polyhedra, are completely invisible in this view, as none of their edges are rendered at all.
|style=&quot;vertical-align:top&quot;|[[File:Ortho solid 016-uniform polychoron p33-t0.png|200px]]&lt;br&gt;Orthographic projection of the 600-point [[W:Great grand stellated 120-cell|great grand stellated 120-cell]] &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\{\tfrac{5}{2},3,3\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;.{{Sfn|Ruen: Great grand stellated 120-cell|2007}} The 120-cell is its convex hull. The projection to the left renders only the 120-cell's shortest chord, its 1200 edges. The projection above also renders only one of the 120-cell's 30 chords, the edges of its 120 inscribed regular 5-cells. The 120-cell itself (the convex hull) is invisible in this view, as its edges are not rendered.
|}

[[120-cell#Geometry|The 120-cell is the maximally complex regular 4-polytope]], containing inscribed instances of every regular 1-, 2-, 3-, and 4-polytope, except the regular polygons of more than {15} sides. 

The 120-cell is the convex hull of a regular [[120-cell#Relationships among interior polytopes|compound of each of the 6 regular convex 4-polytopes]]. They are the [[5-cell|5-point (5-cell) 4-simplex]], the [[16-cell|8-point (16-cell) 4-orthoplex]], the [[W:Tesseract|16-point (8-cell) tesseract]], the [[24-cell|24-point (24-cell)]], the [[600-cell|120-point (600-cell)]], and the [[120-cell|600-point (120-cell)]]. The 120-cell is the convex hull of a compound of 120 disjoint regular 5-cells, of 75 disjoint 16-cells, of 25 disjoint 24-cells, and of 5 disjoint 600-cells.

The 120-cell contains an even larger inventory of irregular polytopes, created by the intersection of multiple instances of these component regular 4-polytopes. Many are quite unexpected, because they do not occur as components of any regular polytope smaller than the 120-cell. As just one example among the [[120-cell#Concentric hulls|sections of the 120-cell]], there is an irregular 24-point polyhedron with 16 triangle faces and 4 nonagon {9} faces.{{Sfn|Moxness|}}

Most renderings of the 120-cell, like the rotating projection here, only illustrate its outer surface, which is a honeycomb of face-bonded dodecahedral cells. Only the objects in its 3-dimensional surface are rendered, namely the 120 dodecahedra, their pentagon faces, and their edges. Although the 120-cell has chords of 30 distinct lengths, in this kind of simplified rendering only the 120-cell's own edges (its shortest chord) are shown. Its 29 interior chords, the edges of objects in the interior of the 120-cell, are not rendered, so interior objects are not visible at all.

Visualizing the complete interior of the 600-vertex 120-cell in a single image is impractical because of its complexity. Only four 120-cell edges are incident at each vertex, but [[120-cell#Chords|600 chords (of all 30 lengths)]] are incident at ''each'' vertex.

== Compounds in the 120-cell ==
The 8-point (16-cell), not the 5-point (5-cell), is the smallest building block; it compounds to every larger regular 4-polytope. The 5-point (5-cell) does compound to the 600-point (120-cell), but it does not fit into any smaller regular 4-polytope. 

The 8-point (16-cell) compounds by 2 in the 16-point (8-cell), and by 3 in the 24-point (24-cell). The 16-point (8-cell) compounds in the 24-point (24-cell) by 3 non-disjoint instances of itself, with each of the 24 vertices shared by two 16-point (8-cells). The 24-point (24-cell) compounds by 5 disjoint instances of itself in the 120-point (600-cell), and the 120-point (600-cell) compounds by 5 disjoint instances of itself in the 600-point (120-cell).

The 24-point (24-cell) also compounds by &lt;math&gt;5^2&lt;/math&gt; non-disjoint instances of itself in the 120-point (600-cell); it compounds in 5 disjoint instances of itself, 10 (not 5) different ways. Whichever set of 5 disjoint 24-point (24-cells) are assembled, the resulting 120-point (600-cell) contains 25 distinct 24-point (24-cells), not just 5 (or 10). This implies that 15 disjoint 8-point (16-cells) will construct a 120-point (600-cell), which will contain 75 distinct 8-point (16-cells). 

The 600-point (120-cell) is 5 disjoint 120-point (600-cells), just 2 different ways (not 5 or 10 ways), so it is 10 distinct 120-point (600-cells). This implies that the 8-point (16-cell) compounds by 3 times &lt;math&gt;5^2&lt;/math&gt; (75) disjoint instances of itself in the 600-point (120-cell), which contains &lt;math&gt;3^2&lt;/math&gt; times  &lt;math&gt;5^2&lt;/math&gt; (225) distinct instances of the 24-point (24-cell), and  &lt;math&gt;3^3&lt;/math&gt; times &lt;math&gt;5^2&lt;/math&gt; (675) distinct instances of the 8-point (16-cell). 

These facts were discovered painstakingly by various researchers, and no one has found a general rule governing subsumption relations among regular polytopes. The reasons for some of their numeric incidence relations are far from obvious. [[W:Pieter Hendrik Schoute|Schoute]] was the first to see that the 120-point (600-cell) is a compound of 5 24-point (24-cells) ''10 different ways'', and after he saw it a hundred years lapsed until Denney, Hooker, Johnson, Robinson, Butler &amp; Claiborne proved his result, and showed why.{{Sfn|Denney, Hooker, Johnson, Robinson, Butler &amp; Claiborne|2020|loc=''The geometry of H4 polytopes''}}

So much for the compounds of 16-cells. The 120-cell is also the convex hull of the compound of 120 disjoint regular 5-cells. That stellated compound (without its convex hull of 120-cell edges) is the [[w:Great_grand_stellated_120-cell|great grand stellated 120-cell]] illustrated above, the final regular [[W:Stellation|stellation]] of the 120-cell, and the only [[W:Schläfli-Hess polychoron|regular star 4-polytope]] to have the 120-cell for its convex hull. The edges of the great grand stellated 120-cell are &lt;math&gt;\phi^6&lt;/math&gt; as long as those of its 120-cell [[W:List of polyhedral stellations#Stellation process|stellation core]] deep inside.

The compound of 120 disjoint 5-point (5-cells) can be seen to be equivalent to the compound of 5 disjoint 120-point (600-cells), as follows. Beginning with a single 120-point (600-cell), expand each vertex into a regular 5-cell, by adding 4 new equidistant vertices, such that the 5 vertices form a regular 5-cell inscribed in the 3-sphere. The 120 5-cells are disjoint, and the 600 vertices form 5 disjoint 120-point (600-cells): a 120-cell.

== Thirty distinguished distances ==
The 30 numbers listed in the table are all-important in Euclidean geometry. A case can be made on symmetry grounds that their squares are the 30 most important numbers between 0 and 4. The 30 rows of the table are the 30 distinct [[120-cell#Geodesic rectangles|chord lengths of the unit-radius 120-cell]], the largest regular convex 4-polytope. Since the 120-cell subsumes all smaller regular polytopes, its 30 chords are the complete chord set of all the regular polytopes that can be constructed in the first four dimensions of Euclidean space, except for regular polygons of more than 15 sides.

{| class=&quot;wikitable&quot; style=&quot;white-space:nowrap;text-align:center&quot;
!rowspan=2|&lt;math&gt;c_t&lt;/math&gt;
!rowspan=2|arc
!rowspan=2|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{n}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
!rowspan=2|&lt;math&gt;\left\{p\right\}&lt;/math&gt;
!rowspan=2|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;m\left\{\frac{k}{d}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
!rowspan=2|Steinbach roots
!colspan=7|Chord lengths of the unit 120-cell
|-
!colspan=5|unit-radius length &lt;math&gt;c_t&lt;/math&gt;
!colspan=2|unit-edge length &lt;math&gt;c_t/c_1&lt;/math&gt;&lt;br&gt;in 120-cell of radius &lt;math&gt;c_8=\sqrt{2}\phi^2&lt;/math&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{1,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;15.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{30\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{30\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{4,1}-c_{2,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{7-3 \sqrt{5}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.270091&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\sqrt{2} \phi ^2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2 \phi ^4}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.072949}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{2,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;25.2{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{2}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2 \left\{15\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \left(c_{18,1}-c_{4,1}\right)&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{3-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.437016&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\sqrt{2} \phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2 \phi ^2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.190983}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi &lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.61803&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{3,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;36{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{3}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{10\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;3 \left\{\frac{10}{3}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \left(\sqrt{5}-1\right) c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \left(\sqrt{5}-1\right)&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.618034&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{\phi ^2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.381966}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2} \phi &lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2.28825&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{4,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;41.4{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{60}{7}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{c_{8,1}}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.707107&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2.61803&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{5,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;44.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{4}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2 \left\{\frac{15}{2}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3} c_{2,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{9-3 \sqrt{5}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.756934&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}}}{\phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2 \phi ^2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.572949}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3} \phi &lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2.80252&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{6,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;49.1{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{120}{17}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{5-\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{5-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.831254&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\frac{1}{\phi }}}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{\sqrt{5}}{2 \phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.690983}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\phi ^3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;3.07768&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{7,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;56.0{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{20}{3}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}-\frac{1}{\phi }} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}-\frac{2}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;0.93913&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{\frac{\psi }{\phi }}}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{\psi }{2 \phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{0.881966}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\psi  \phi ^3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;3.47709&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;60{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{5}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{6\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{6\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;3.70246&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{9,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;66.1{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{40}{7}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}-\frac{1}{2 \phi }} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}-\frac{1}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.09132&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{\frac{\chi }{\phi }}}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{\chi }{2 \phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.19098}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\chi  \phi ^3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;4.04057&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{10,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;69.8{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{60}{11}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi  c_{4,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1+\sqrt{5}}{2 \sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.14412&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\phi }{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{\phi ^2}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.30902}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^3&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;4.23607&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{11,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;72{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{6}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{5\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{5\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\frac{1}{\phi }} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\frac{2}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.17557&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3-\phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3-\phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.38197}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2} \sqrt{3-\phi } \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;4.3525&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{12,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;75.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{24}{5}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.22474&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;4.53457&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{13,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;81.1{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{60}{13}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{9-\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{9-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.30038&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{9-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{4} \left(9-\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.69098}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2} \left(9-\sqrt{5}\right)} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;4.8146&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{14,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;84.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{40}{9}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\phi } c_{8,1}}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{1+\sqrt{5}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.345&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\phi }}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{\sqrt{5} \phi }{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1.80902}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt[4]{5} \sqrt{\phi ^5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;4.9798&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{15,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;90.0{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{7}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{4\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{4\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2 c_{4,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.41421&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2 \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;5.23607&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{16,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;95.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{120}{29}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{11-\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{11-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.4802&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{11-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{4} \left(11-\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.19098}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2} \left(11-\sqrt{5}\right)} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;5.48037&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{17,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;98.9{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{120}{31}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{7+\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{7+\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.51954&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{7+\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{4} \left(7+\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.30902}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\psi  \phi ^5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;5.62605&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{18,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;104.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{8}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{15}{4}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.58114&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{5} \sqrt{\phi ^4}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;5.8541&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{19,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;108.0{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{9}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{10}{3}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{3,1}+c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \left(1+\sqrt{5}\right)&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.61803&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi &lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{1+\phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.61803}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2} \phi ^3&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;5.9907&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{20,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;110.2{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{120}{7}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{13-\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{13-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.64042&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{13-\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{4} \left(13-\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.69098}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2 \sqrt{8-\phi ^2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.07359&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{21,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;113.9{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{60}{19}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}+\frac{1}{1+\sqrt{5}}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}+\frac{1}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.67601&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}+\frac{1}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}+\frac{1}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2.80902}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2 \sqrt{8-\frac{\chi }{\phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.20537&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{22,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;120{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{10}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{3\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{3\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.73205&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{6} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.41285&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{23,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;124.0{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{120}{41}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{\phi }+\frac{5}{2}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}+\frac{2}{1+\sqrt{5}}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.7658&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{4-\frac{\psi }{2 \phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{4-\frac{\psi }{2 \phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.11803}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\chi  \phi ^5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.53779&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{24,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;130.9{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{20}{7}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{11+\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{11+\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.81907&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{11+\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{4} \left(11+\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.30902}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2 \sqrt{8-\frac{\sqrt{5}}{\phi }}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.73503&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{25,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;135.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{11}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{11}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{7+3 \sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{7+3 \sqrt{5}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.85123&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\phi ^2}{\sqrt{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{\phi ^4}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.42705}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^4&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.8541&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{26,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;138.6{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{12}{5}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{7}{2}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{7}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.87083&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{7}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{7}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{7} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;6.92667&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{27,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;144{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{12}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{5}{2}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2} \left(5+\sqrt{5}\right)} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{2} \left(5+\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.90211&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\phi +2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2+\phi }&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.61803}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2 \sqrt{2 \phi +4}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;7.0425&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{28,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;154.8{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{13}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{13}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{13+\sqrt{5}} c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{13+\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.95167&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{\sqrt{13+\sqrt{5}}}{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{1}{4} \left(13+\sqrt{5}\right)}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.80902}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2 \sqrt{8-\frac{1}{\phi ^2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;7.22598&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{29,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;164.5{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{14}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{15}{7}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi  c_{12,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{2} \sqrt{\frac{3}{2}} \left(1+\sqrt{5}\right)&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.98168&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3}{2}} \phi &lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{\frac{3 \phi ^2}{2}}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3.92705}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{3} \phi ^3&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;7.33708&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;c_{30,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;180{}^{\circ}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{\frac{30}{15}\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{2\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\left\{2\right\}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2 c_{8,1}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2.&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{4}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{4.}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2 \sqrt{2} \phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;7.40492&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|rowspan=4 colspan=6|
|rowspan=4 colspan=4|
&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; is the golden ratio:&lt;br&gt;
&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi ^2-\phi -1=0&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;&lt;br&gt;
&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\phi }+1=\phi&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;, and: &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi+1=\phi^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;&lt;br&gt;
&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\frac{1}{\phi }::1::\phi ::\phi ^2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;&lt;br&gt;
&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1/\phi&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; and &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; are the golden sections of &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;:&lt;br&gt;
&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi +\frac{1}{\phi }=\sqrt{5}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|colspan=2|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\phi = (\sqrt{5} + 1)/2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1.618034&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|colspan=2|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\chi = (3\sqrt{5} + 1)/2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;3.854102&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|colspan=2|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\psi = (3\sqrt{5} - 1)/2&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2.854102&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|-
|colspan=2|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\psi = 11/\chi = 22/(3\sqrt{5} + 1)&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|&lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;2.854102&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;
|}

...

== The 8-point regular polytopes ==
In 2-space we have the regular 8-point octagon, in 3-space the regular 8-point cube, and in 4-space the regular 8-point [[W:16-cell|16-cell]].

A planar octagon with rigid edges of unit length has chords of length:

:&lt;math&gt;r_1=1,r_2=\sqrt{2+\sqrt{2}} \approx 1.84776,r_3=1+\sqrt{2} \approx 2.41421,r_4=\sqrt{4 + \sqrt{8}} \approx 2.61313&lt;/math&gt;

The chord ratio &lt;math&gt;r_3=1+\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt; is a geometrical proportion, the [[W:Silver ratio|silver ratio]]. Fontaine and Hurley's procedure for obtaining the reciprocal of a chord tells us that:

:&lt;math&gt;r_3-r_1-r_1=1/r_3 \approx 0.41421&lt;/math&gt;

Notice that &lt;math&gt;1/r_3=\sqrt{2}-1=r_3-2&lt;/math&gt;.

If we embed this planar octagon in 3-space, we can make it skew, repositioning its vertices so that each is one unit-edge length distant from three others instead of two others, so we obtain a unit-edge cube with chords of length:

:&lt;math&gt;r_1=1, r_2=\sqrt{2}, r_3=\sqrt{3}, r_4=\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;

If we embed this cube in 4-space, we can skew it some more, repositioning its vertices so that each is one unit-edge length distant from six others instead of three others, so we obtain a unit-edge 4-polytope with chords of length:

:&lt;math&gt;r_1=1,r_2=1,r_3=1,r_4=\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;

All of its chords except its long diameters are the same unit length as its edge. In fact they are its 24 edges, and it is a 16-cell of radius &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;1/\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;.

[[File:octagon16cell.png|thumb|Orthogonal projection of a regular 16-cell to the [[16-cell#Projections|B&lt;sub&gt;4&lt;/sub&gt; Coxeter plane]]. Only its edges are shown; its long diameter chords are not drawn. All 24 edges are the same length. Only the edges of the two disjoint squares lie parallel to the view plane, in completely orthogonal central planes.]]

The [[16-cell]] is the [[W:Regular convex 4-polytope|regular convex 4-polytope]] with [[W:Schläfli symbol|Schläfli symbol]] {3,3,4}. It has 8 vertices, 24 edges, 32 equilateral triangle faces, and 16 regular tetrahedron cells. It is the [[16-cell#Octahedral dipyramid|four-dimensional analogue of the octahedron]], and each of its four orthogonal central hyperplanes is an octahedron.

The only planar regular polygons found in the 16-cell are face triangles and central plane squares, but the 16-cell also contains a regular skew octagon, its [[W:Petrie polygon|Petrie polygon]]. The chords of this regular octagon, which lies skew in 4-space, are those given above for the 16-cell, as opposed to those for the cube or the regular octagon in the plane. The 16-cell has 6 such Petrie octagons, which share the same 8 vertices but have distinct sets of 8 edges each.

The regular octad has higher symmetry in 4-space than it does in 2-space. The 16-cell is the 4-orthoplex, the simplest regular 4-polytope after the [[5-cell|4-simplex]]. All the larger regular 4-polytopes, including the 120-cell, are compounds of the 16-cell. The regular octagon exhibits this high symmetry only when embedded in 4-space at the vertices of the 16-cell.

The 16-cell constitutes an [[W:Orthonormal basis|orthonormal basis]] for the choice of a 4-dimensional Cartesian reference frame, because its vertices define four orthogonal axes. The eight vertices of a unit-radius 16-cell are (±1, 0, 0, 0), (0, ±1, 0, 0), (0, 0, ±1, 0), (0, 0, 0, ±1). All vertices are connected by &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; edges except opposite pairs. In this convenient unit-radius 4-coordinate system, the original planar octagon we started with had chords of length:

:&lt;math&gt;r_1=\sqrt{2},r_2=\sqrt{2(2+\sqrt{2})} \approx 2.61313,r_3=2+\sqrt{2} \approx 3.41421,r_4=2 \sqrt{2+\sqrt{2}} \approx 3.69552&lt;/math&gt;

none of which chords occur in a 16-cell or 120-cell except &lt;math&gt;r_1=\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;. 

In the unit-radius 120-cell, the great square edge chord &lt;math&gt;c_{15} = \sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt; occurs in 675 distinct (75 disjoint) 16-cells. The vertex coordinates of each 16-cell form 6 central squares lying in 6 pairwise [[W:Orthogonal|orthogonal]] coordinate planes. Great squares in ''opposite'' planes that do not share an axis (e.g. in the ''xy'' and ''wz'' planes) are completely disjoint (they do not intersect at any vertices). These planes are [[W:Completely orthogonal|completely orthogonal]].{{Efn|name=Six orthogonal planes of the Cartesian basis}}

[[W:Rotations in 4-dimensional Euclidean space|Rotations in 4-dimensional Euclidean space]] can be seen as the composition of two 2-dimensional rotations in completely orthogonal planes. The general rotation in 4-space is a double rotation in pairs of completely orthogonal planes. Two completely orthogonal planes are called invariant planes of the rotation when all points in the plane rotate on circles that remain in the plane, even as the whole plane tilts sideways (like a coin flipping) into another plane. The two completely orthogonal rotations of each plane (like a wheel, and like a coin flipping) are simultaneous but independent, in that they are not geometrically constrained to turn at the same rate. However, the most circular kind of rotation (as opposed to an elliptical double rotation of a rigid spherical object) occurs when the invariant planes do rotate through the same angle in the same time interval. Such equi-angled double rotations are called [[w:SO(4)#Isoclinic_rotations|isoclinic]], also [[w:William_Kingdon_Clifford|Clifford]] displacements.

The 16-cell is the simplest possible frame in which to [[16-cell#Rotations|observe 4-dimensional rotations]] because its characteristic isoclinic rotations feature a single pair of invariant rotation planes. In the 16-cell an isoclinic rotation by 90° in any pair of invariant completely orthogonal square central planes takes every square central plane to its completely orthogonal square central plane. All the vertices move at once on circular [[w:Geodesic|geodesics]], displaced 90° in 8 orthogonal directions, and the rigid 16-cell assumes a new orientation in 4-space. When the 90° isoclinic rotation is continued in the same rotational direction through an additional 90°, each vertex is again displaced 90°, but from the new orientation in a direction orthogonal to the first displacement. The trajectory of each vertex over each 90° isoclinic rotational displacement is a one-eighth segment of its geodesic orbit. Its entire orbit traces a circular helix in 4-space, and also traces a great circle in one of the two completely orthogonal invariant rotation planes as they tilt sideways into each other's plane in the course of a 360° isoclinic rotation. In the course of a 720° isoclinic rotation each vertex departs from all 8 vertex positions just once and returns to its original position, and the 16-cell returns to its original orientation.

== Hypercubes ==
The long diameter of the unit-edge [[W:Hypercube|hypercube]] of dimension &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;n&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; is &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{n}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt;, so the unit-edge [[w:Tesseract|4-hypercube, the 16-point (8-cell) tesseract,]] has chords:
:&lt;math&gt;r_1=\sqrt{1},r_2=\sqrt{2},r_3=\sqrt{3},r_4=\sqrt{4}&lt;/math&gt;
Uniquely in its 4-dimensional case, the hypercube's edge length equals its radius, like the hexagon. We call such polytopes ''radially equilateral'', because they can be constructed from equilateral triangles which meet at their center, each contributing two radii and an edge. The cuboctahedron and the 24-cell are also radially equilateral.

The [[W:Tesseract|tesseract]] is the [[W:Regular convex 4-polytope|regular convex 4-polytope]] with [[W:Schläfli symbol|Schläfli symbol]] {4,3,3}. It has 16 vertices, 32 edges, 24 square faces, and 8 cube cells. It is the four-dimensional analogue of the cube.

The tesseract is the [[W:Dual polytope|dual polytope]] of the 16-cell. They have the same Petrie polygon, the regular octagon, but the tesseract contains 2 disjoint instances and 4 distinct instances of the skew octagon. We can construct the tesseract the way we constructed the 16-cell, by skewing a planar octagon's edges so they become edges of the 4-polytope. Because the tesseract has 16 vertices we will need two planar octagons, and to start we must embedded them in 4-space as completely orthogonal planes that intersect at only one point, their common center. Because the tesseract is radially equilateral (unlike the 16-cell), to build a unit-radius tesseract we start with our original octagon of unit-edge length, rather than the octagon of edge length &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; that we needed to build the unit-radius 16-cell.

For our tesseract construction we skew each planar octagon into a cube, so we have a compound of two completely orthogonal cubes. Provided the planes were completely orthogonal in 4-space and we skewed them both the same way, the 16 vertices will be the vertices of a tesseract with half of its 32 edges missing.

The 16-point tesseract is the convex hull of a compound of two 8-point 16-cells, in exact dimensional analogy to the way the 8-point cube is the convex hull of a [[W:Stellated octahedron|compound of two regular 4-point tetrahedra]]. The [[W:Demihypercube|demihypercubes]] occupy alternate vertices of the hypercubes. The diagonals of the square faces of the unit-radius tesseract are the &lt;small&gt;&lt;math&gt;\sqrt{2}&lt;/math&gt;&lt;/small&gt; edges of two unit-radius 16-cells, which are also the edges of the square central planes.

Because the tesseract contains two 16-cells in alternate positions it has two sets of 6 orthogonal square central planes. Two angles are required to specify the relationship between two planes in 4-space. Pairs of planes within each 16-cell are 90° apart in one angle, and either 0° or 90° apart in the other angle. They are 90° apart in both angles if and only if they are completely orthogonal planes, 90° apart by isoclinic rotation, with no vertices in common and their corresponding vertices 180° apart. Otherwise they are 0° apart in one of the angles, 90° apart by simple rotation with their corresponding vertices 90° apart, and they intersect in one axis and lie in a common 3-dimensional hyperplane.{{Efn|A double rotation in which one of the two angles of rotation is 0°, so that one of the completely orthogonal invariant planes does not rotate, is called a simple rotation. Ordinary rotations observed in a 3-dimensional space are simple rotations.}}

A pair of square central planes from alternate 16-cells are 60° apart by isoclinic rotation, with their corresponding vertices 120° apart. The planes are not orthogonal or parallel, so they intersect in a line somewhere, but they have no vertices in common, they have no 3-dimensional hyperplane in common, and they cannot reach each other by simple rotation. Such pairs of objects are called [[W:Clifford parallel|Clifford parallel]] because all their corresponding pairs of vertices are the same distance apart, although they are not parallel in the usual sense, because they have a common center. Not only the alternate 16-cells' corresponding square central planes, but also the 16-cells themselves, are Clifford parallel objects.

We can rotate the tesseract isoclinically the way we rotated the 16-cell, by 90° in two completely orthogonal invariant square central planes, with the same effect on both alternate 16-cells. In the course of a 720° isoclinic rotation in invariant square central planes each vertex departs from all 8 vertex positions of its 16-cell just once and returns to its original position, but it does not visit the vertex positions of the other 16-cell. The skew octagon geodesic orbits of the 16 vertices are disjoint circular helixes, and those 16 circular helixes are Clifford parallel objects.

== The 24-cell ==
In 2-space we have the radially equilateral 6-point hexagon. In 3-space we have the radially equilateral 12-point cuboctahedron, with 4 hexagonal central planes. In 4-space we have the radially equilateral 24-point 24-cell, with 4 cuboctahedral central hyperplanes and 16 hexagonal central planes.

Great hexagons are a rounder choice than great squares for the invariant rotation planes in which to rotate a 4-polytope isoclinically. The complete hexagonal isoclinic revolution requires 720° like the complete square isoclinic revolution, but it is completed in 6 chordal steps of 120° each rather than 8 chordal steps of 180° each.

...

== The 600-cell ==

...

== Finally the 120-cell ==

...

== Conclusions ==

Fontaine and Hurley's discovery is more than a formula for the reciprocal of a regular ''n''-polygon diagonal. It also yields the discrete sequence of isocline chords of the distinct isoclinic rotation characteristic of a ''d''-dimensional regular polytope. The characteristic rotational chord sequence of the ''d''-polytope can be represented geometrically in two dimensions on a distinct star polygon, but it lies on a geodesic circle through ''d''-dimensional space. Fontaine and Hurley discovered the geodesic topology of polytopes generally. Their procedure will reveal the geodesics of arbitrary non-uniform polytopes, since it can be applied to a polytope of any dimensionality and irregularity, by first fitting the polytope to the smallest regular polygon whose chords include its chords.

Fontaine and Hurley's discovery of a chordal formula for isoclinic rotations closes the circuit on Kappraff and Adamson's discovery of a rotational connection between dynamical systems, Steinbach's golden fields, and Coxeter's Euclidean geometry of ''n'' dimensions. Application of the Fontaine and Hurley procedure in higher-dimensional spaces demonstrates why the connection exists: because polytope sequences generally, from Steinbach's golden polygon chord sequences, to chord sequences in isoclinic rotation helixes, to subsumption relations in the sequence of regular 4-polytopes, arise as expressions of the reflections and rotations of distinct Coxeter symmetry groups, when those various groups interact.

== Appendix: Sequence of regular 4-polytopes ==
{{Regular convex 4-polytopes|wiki=W:|columns=7}}

== Notes ==
{{Notelist}}

== Citations ==
{{Reflist}}

== References ==
{{Refbegin}}
* {{Cite journal | last=Steinbach | first=Peter | year=1997 | title=Golden fields: A case for the Heptagon | journal=Mathematics Magazine | volume=70 | issue=Feb 1997 | pages=22–31 | doi=10.1080/0025570X.1997.11996494 | jstor=2691048 | ref={{SfnRef|Steinbach|1997}} }}
* {{Cite journal | last=Steinbach | first=Peter | year=2000 | title=Sections Beyond Golden| journal=Bridges: Mathematical Connections in Art, Music and Science | issue=2000 | pages=35-44 | url=https://archive.bridgesmathart.org/2000/bridges2000-35.pdf | ref={{SfnRef|Steinbach|2000}}}}
* {{Cite journal | last1=Kappraff | first1=Jay | last2=Jablan | first2=Slavik | last3=Adamson | first3=Gary | last4=Sazdanovich | first4=Radmila | year=2004 | title=Golden Fields, Generalized Fibonacci Sequences, and Chaotic Matrices | journal=Forma | volume=19 | pages=367-387 | url=https://archive.bridgesmathart.org/2005/bridges2005-369.pdf | ref={{SfnRef|Kappraff, Jablan, Adamson &amp; Sazdanovich|2004}} }}
* {{Cite journal | last1=Kappraff | first1=Jay | last2=Adamson | first2=Gary | year=2004 | title=Polygons and Chaos | journal=Dynamical Systems and Geometric Theories | url=https://archive.bridgesmathart.org/2001/bridges2001-67.pdf | ref={{SfnRef|Kappraff &amp; Adamson|2004}} }}
* {{Cite journal | last1=Fontaine | first1=Anne | last2=Hurley | first2=Susan | year=2006 | title=Proof by Picture: Products and Reciprocals of Diagonal Length Ratios in the Regular Polygon | journal=Forum Geometricorum | volume=6 | pages=97-101 | url=https://scispace.com/pdf/proof-by-picture-products-and-reciprocals-of-diagonal-length-1aian8mgp9.pdf }}
{{Refend}}</text>
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    </revision>
  </page>
  <page>
    <title>Wikiversity:Candidates for Curatorship</title>
    <ns>4</ns>
    <id>327427</id>
    <revision>
      <id>2808127</id>
      <parentid>2790002</parentid>
      <timestamp>2026-05-10T03:56:20Z</timestamp>
      <contributor>
        <username>Jtneill</username>
        <id>10242</id>
      </contributor>
      <comment>Removed redirect to [[Wikiversity:Candidates for Custodianship#Requests and Nominations for Curatorship]]</comment>
      <origin>2808127</origin>
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      <format>text/x-wiki</format>
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{{/Instructions}}
{{RoundBoxBottom}}
{{process|WV:CC}}
{{Wikiversity organization}}
__TOC__

== Requests and Nominations for Curatorship ==
{{shortcut|WV:RFCUR|WV:NFCUR|WV:CC/CUR|WV:CFC/CUR}}
;Notes
# Registered users can either request [[Wikiversity:Curators|curatorship]], or be nominated for it by others. Candidates who have not accepted a nomination, or have failed to secure a mentor within one week are [[/Archived|archived]] as incomplete. 
# See [[Special:UserGroupRights#curator]] for some details on what options are available for curators.
#Candidates can request a mentor from those listed at [[Wikiversity:List of custodian mentors]]; the requested mentor must agree.
#Candidates: please respond to any questions from the community about your wiki editing and wiki participation.
&lt;!-- 
     **** !!!!! *****
      To request curatorship, please add yourself below. To nominate someone else, please add them below as well.
      Don't forget about TRANSCLUSION!
      i.e. type in {{/YOURNAME|Your name}}
      and then edit that page, not this one.
     **** !!!!! *****
 --&gt;
''None at present.''
{{clear}}


== See also ==
*[[Wikiversity:Custodian Mentorship|Custodian Mentorship]]
*[[Wikiversity:Custodianship|Custodianship]]
*[[Wikiversity:Bureaucratship|Bureaucratship]]
*[[Wikiversity:List of custodian mentors|List of custodian mentors]] 
*[[Wikiversity:Support staff]]

[[Category:Wikiversity curatorship]]</text>
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    </revision>
    <revision>
      <id>2808129</id>
      <parentid>2808127</parentid>
      <timestamp>2026-05-10T03:57:57Z</timestamp>
      <contributor>
        <username>Jtneill</username>
        <id>10242</id>
      </contributor>
      <minor />
      <origin>2808129</origin>
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      <format>text/x-wiki</format>
      <text bytes="1444" sha1="rkxwilkqacyivevo56qbpa4qp537r8k" xml:space="preserve">{{RoundBoxTop}}
{{/Instructions}}
{{RoundBoxBottom}}
{{process|WV:CCC}}
{{Wikiversity organization}}
__TOC__

== Requests and Nominations for Curatorship ==
{{shortcut|WV:RFCUR|WV:NFCUR|WV:CC/CUR|WV:CFC/CUR}}
;Notes
# Registered users can either request [[Wikiversity:Curators|curatorship]], or be nominated for it by others. Candidates who have not accepted a nomination, or have failed to secure a mentor within one week are [[/Archived|archived]] as incomplete. 
# See [[Special:UserGroupRights#curator]] for some details on what options are available for curators.
#Candidates can request a mentor from those listed at [[Wikiversity:List of custodian mentors]]; the requested mentor must agree.
#Candidates: please respond to any questions from the community about your wiki editing and wiki participation.
&lt;!-- 
     **** !!!!! *****
      To request curatorship, please add yourself below. To nominate someone else, please add them below as well.
      Don't forget about TRANSCLUSION!
      i.e. type in {{/YOURNAME|Your name}}
      and then edit that page, not this one.
     **** !!!!! *****
 --&gt;
''None at present.''
{{clear}}


== See also ==
*[[Wikiversity:Custodian Mentorship|Custodian Mentorship]]
*[[Wikiversity:Custodianship|Custodianship]]
*[[Wikiversity:Bureaucratship|Bureaucratship]]
*[[Wikiversity:List of custodian mentors|List of custodian mentors]] 
*[[Wikiversity:Support staff]]

[[Category:Wikiversity curatorship]]</text>
      <sha1>rkxwilkqacyivevo56qbpa4qp537r8k</sha1>
    </revision>
  </page>
  <page>
    <title>User:ThinkingScience</title>
    <ns>2</ns>
    <id>328661</id>
    <revision>
      <id>2808117</id>
      <parentid>2807651</parentid>
      <timestamp>2026-05-10T01:53:23Z</timestamp>
      <contributor>
        <username>ThinkingScience</username>
        <id>3061446</id>
      </contributor>
      <comment>/* T */ Tom Hanks</comment>
      <origin>2808117</origin>
      <model>wikitext</model>
      <format>text/x-wiki</format>
      <text bytes="9645" sha1="jy9ruq44cirst77fhrk3vgzyafbcx6m" xml:space="preserve">== Main focus: my &quot;idea&quot; ==

* This is my [[Draft:The Neurodiversity-inspired Idea]]. There goes the &quot;main effort&quot; based on my other smaller effort in various places and also by using the methodology I one day hope I will make.
* [[User:ThinkingScience/ND_Inspired_Idea_Notebook|Daily Diary of ND Inspired Idea]]
* These are my course notes: [[User:ThinkingScience/Draftspace/Coursera]]

=== Secondary Goals ===

These are secondary goals in no particular order:

* Contribute to Wikiversity by understanding and improving on content:
** I begin with interpreting the [[Neurodiversity Movement]] by creating this subpage: [[User:ThinkingScience/Neurodiversity_Movement_Interpretation]]
* Documenting all &quot;Quasi-AI&quot; inputs and outputs related to a particular action:
** [[User:ThinkingScience/All General AI Prompt History Archive|All General AI Prompt History Archive]]

== Taking responsibility for famous people or people to focus on in [[Draft:The Neurodiversity-inspired Idea]] ==

I need to take responsibility for the choices I make. If any of my choices resulted in a harm to a real person I am responsible whether I agree or not to any blame being put on me.

This section may be moved to a sub-page if I think it starts getting too &quot;cluttered&quot; and later into more sub-pages if the list just grows and grows.

=== T ===

'''Taylor Swift'''

Taylor Swift. Why I chose Taylor Swift. I have watched interviews with her before. She is an interesting person to me. I discovered she is open about her creation process. I value that in human beings and that includes people I meet offline, in the &quot;real world&quot; but it will be a challenge for me to make video notes that are &quot;Do no harm&quot;. I may be &quot;way in over my head&quot;. Please help me if you think I'm doing something wrong. 

She has a dedicated follower base which may have a large influence. Maybe I'll suffer for this but keeping my &quot;idea&quot; locked inside &quot;my head&quot; I think will cause greater harm to me than good. I know what risk I am taking...or probably not but I gotta move forward or try to. Perhaps my fears are greater than real risks in reality but who knows?

'''Tom Hanks'''

I chose Tom Hanks because I need to move on. In my personal notes I have tens of famous people and not. Now that I'm adding people here I need to adhere to the Wikiversity rules and guidelines so the list will be limited, or will it? 
Maybe it will grow because applying &quot;Do no harm&quot; is a very good foundation considering I am no consciously trying to come up with idea how my comparisons here will do not harm and I think that is healthy for both me and for everyone!

== April 20th experiment, &quot;AI Decisions, sure. AI-generation NEVER&quot; ==

Starting today on April 20th after 08:46 UTC Time(I got UTC time on this computer where I'm so far only using this account), I'll begin by editing Wikiversity resources by being more encouraged by &quot;yeah, do that&quot; comments by Large Language Models.

Nothing of it will be &quot;AI-generated&quot; but the decisions I take: the reason for the decisions I take may be because of &quot;AI-generation&quot; but of course I will try to stay away from clear stupidity like if the AI-generation says &quot;jump off a cliff&quot;. An extreme example, but I wanted to make a point that I won't take any decision and I will question the &quot;AI/LLM&quot; if it suggests something that to me sounds insane.

If you see anything weird please comment on my talk page after you've reverted my edits.

When this experiment ends, I don't have a plan for that yet. User input might help.

This is where I make notes of decisions that may motivate me to do edits in places. It should include both inputs and outputs and what kind of &quot;version&quot; of &quot;AI&quot;s/LLMs I'm using:
* [[/April 20th Experiment Notes|&quot;AI Notes&quot; for motivation purposes in this &quot;experiment&quot;]]

=== Defining the end goal ===

The end goal is supposed to make me make useful edits or being able to make edits or contributions on more than just only the projects I'm &quot;mainly&quot; interested in.

'''Success Criteria'''

* &quot;Did the AI's output lead me to make a useful edit on a page I wouldn't have thought about and/or chosen on my own?&quot;
** This question was modified by myself based on an AI's output(this part was generated by &quot;AI Mode&quot; on May 1, 2026)

== Coursera schedule and notes ==

Today April 16, 2026 my contributions contain a lot of spelling mistakes. They may be present other days too. You'll probably spot spelling mistakes all over.

My studying schedule as I've understood it so far(studying with my mother):

This schedule is not reliable(cause my studying partner keeps changing the time, which is not necessarily bad):

UTC TIME: 07:30 - 09:30 (2 hours a day, 6 hours a week)
* Monday
* Thursday
* Saturday

== I'm studying on Coursera and about their Terms of Use ==
'''Nothing here is legal advice'''. This is very important.
Nothing in this &quot;Wikisection&quot; constitutes legal advice! Please don't blindly follow my advice and if someone copies some parts of this text without providing context then they are responsible for what they share! If you have been tricked by scammers that's sad but I am NOT responsible for illegal activities.

* web.archive.org/web/20260325233813/https://www.coursera.org/about/terms

&quot;When you create your Coursera account, and when you subsequently use certain features, you must provide us with accurate and complete information, and you agree to update your information to keep it accurate and complete.&quot;

My interpretation of that is that on Coursera I have to provide a real name. There is a field for &quot;Full name&quot;(retrieved 2026-04-09 UTC YYYY-MM-DD). How does that correspond to these terms? It doesn't say &quot;Real name&quot; but even if it did, what if I choose a name for myself and I'd like to call myself ThinkingScience? Is it still accurate? 

They don't specify what I actually have to do, just based on my quote. It would be nice for me and other Coursera learners to know what is true. Is the privacy on Wikiversity better? I'd say it is because on Coursera we are forced to provide an email address to create an account. We are not forced to do that on Wikiversity, Wikidata etc.

== notes about this account ==

This account is an alternative account on a computer I don't trust. It should never be allowed to vote and if it does please block this account. Doubling down on this today at 2026-04-30!(intent unchanged)

It's an alt of [[User:Dekatriofovia]] which unfortunately I have to prove right now despite me being in a hurry...so I'll edit my account at Dekatriofovia at the same time almost and publish at the same time...so you know it's me.

The reason for this account is it's on a computer with a bigger screen so I can more easily read books and documents.

== a thing I did not regret(modified section title) ==

This may be blathering but it ends with another Wikilink where I will pass my &quot;idea&quot; through '''Wikiversity:Research ethics''' and through anything else that might be required before anything enters Draft space. The &quot;idea&quot; is &quot;'''The Neurodiversity-inspired idea'''&quot;.

[[Protoscience]] was an interesting read. I think it will be calming for me if my idea is proven to be pseudoscience cause I can stop worrying about it and leave it behind me. &quot;The Neurodiversity-inspired idea&quot;(in lack for a better name, for now) will not be published in main space, only in draft space.

[[Wikiversity:Original research]] made me think &quot;I may be way over my head&quot; (though I stumbled around a bit due to not knowing English at an advanced enough level...this parenthesis is about some unimportant trivia).

I'm gonna place everything regarding &quot;The Neurodiversity-inspired idea&quot; into draft space and pass it through '''Wikiversity:Research ethics'''(sorry for repeating myself) and anything else I can find and also ask the community here on Wikiversity what else to place it through.

I thought I was gonna create '''User:ThinkingScience/The Neurodiversity-inspired Idea'''(but turns out I was encouraged to create it in Draft: space ... (this paragraph has been modified. Edit history might keep the original). Here are my notes again which I wanted to link to [[User:ThinkingScience/ND Inspired Idea Notebook]]

'''Draft:The Neurodiversity-inspired Idea''' that probably is in line with &quot;be bold&quot;.

=== It happened, a small burden has been lifted ===

I posted to the [[Wikiversity:Colloquium]] https://en.wikiversity.org/w/index.php?title=Wikiversity:Colloquium&amp;oldid=2805080

Thing may be archive in the future. I've lost many things that way.(but also re-discovered many things that landed in the archive that I had posted too!)

One week. One small burden lifted. It was the only way forward. I may have been driven insane otherwise or this is just a very bad day I'm having. Full of things that &quot;real life&quot; is demanding of me.

More specifically, this is what I posted [[Wikiversity:Colloquium#Advice_needed:_A_Neurodiversity-inspired_Idea/observation]]

== Posting on talk pages using &quot;Quasi-AI&quot; depending on user preference ==

This is a list of users who have told me how they prefer maximum amount of characters/words to be if I post on their talk page using &quot;Quasi-AI&quot;[1](whatever that is since there's no such Q item nor alias on Wikidata right now regarding that term):
* [[User:Juandev]] - max amount of words: 100 as long as it respects [[Wikiversity:Artificial Intelligence]]

== References ==
[1] - https://en.wikiversity.org/w/index.php?title=Is_the_output_of_ChatGPT_copyrighted%3F&amp;oldid=2711065 {{quote|ChatGPT is an automated quasi-AI technology that allows human-like text console interaction online in which a human can ask questions and ChatGPT returns answers.}}</text>
      <sha1>jy9ruq44cirst77fhrk3vgzyafbcx6m</sha1>
    </revision>
    <revision>
      <id>2808118</id>
      <parentid>2808117</parentid>
      <timestamp>2026-05-10T01:55:34Z</timestamp>
      <contributor>
        <username>ThinkingScience</username>
        <id>3061446</id>
      </contributor>
      <comment>/* T */ mainly adding subsections for specific person</comment>
      <origin>2808118</origin>
      <model>wikitext</model>
      <format>text/x-wiki</format>
      <text bytes="9666" sha1="7v04zvgp4kth0e7amgwrtxun7xlt56s" xml:space="preserve">== Main focus: my &quot;idea&quot; ==

* This is my [[Draft:The Neurodiversity-inspired Idea]]. There goes the &quot;main effort&quot; based on my other smaller effort in various places and also by using the methodology I one day hope I will make.
* [[User:ThinkingScience/ND_Inspired_Idea_Notebook|Daily Diary of ND Inspired Idea]]
* These are my course notes: [[User:ThinkingScience/Draftspace/Coursera]]

=== Secondary Goals ===

These are secondary goals in no particular order:

* Contribute to Wikiversity by understanding and improving on content:
** I begin with interpreting the [[Neurodiversity Movement]] by creating this subpage: [[User:ThinkingScience/Neurodiversity_Movement_Interpretation]]
* Documenting all &quot;Quasi-AI&quot; inputs and outputs related to a particular action:
** [[User:ThinkingScience/All General AI Prompt History Archive|All General AI Prompt History Archive]]

== Taking responsibility for famous people or people to focus on in [[Draft:The Neurodiversity-inspired Idea]] ==

I need to take responsibility for the choices I make. If any of my choices resulted in a harm to a real person I am responsible whether I agree or not to any blame being put on me.

This section may be moved to a sub-page if I think it starts getting too &quot;cluttered&quot; and later into more sub-pages if the list just grows and grows.

=== T ===

==== '''Taylor Swift''' ====

Taylor Swift. Why I chose Taylor Swift. I have watched interviews with her before. She is an interesting person to me. I discovered she is open about her creation process. I value that in human beings and that includes people I meet offline, in the &quot;real world&quot; but it will be a challenge for me to make video notes that are &quot;Do no harm&quot;. I may be &quot;way in over my head&quot;. Please help me if you think I'm doing something wrong. 

She has a dedicated follower base which may have a large influence. Maybe I'll suffer for this but keeping my &quot;idea&quot; locked inside &quot;my head&quot; I think will cause greater harm to me than good. I know what risk I am taking...or probably not but I gotta move forward or try to. Perhaps my fears are greater than real risks in reality but who knows?

==== '''Tom Hanks''' ====

I chose Tom Hanks because I need to move on. In my personal notes I have tens of famous people and not. Now that I'm adding people here I need to adhere to the Wikiversity rules and guidelines so the list will be limited, or will it? 
Maybe it will grow because applying &quot;Do no harm&quot; is a very good foundation considering I am not consciously trying to come up with idea how my comparisons here will do not harm and I think that is healthy for both me and for everyone!

== April 20th experiment, &quot;AI Decisions, sure. AI-generation NEVER&quot; ==

Starting today on April 20th after 08:46 UTC Time(I got UTC time on this computer where I'm so far only using this account), I'll begin by editing Wikiversity resources by being more encouraged by &quot;yeah, do that&quot; comments by Large Language Models.

Nothing of it will be &quot;AI-generated&quot; but the decisions I take: the reason for the decisions I take may be because of &quot;AI-generation&quot; but of course I will try to stay away from clear stupidity like if the AI-generation says &quot;jump off a cliff&quot;. An extreme example, but I wanted to make a point that I won't take any decision and I will question the &quot;AI/LLM&quot; if it suggests something that to me sounds insane.

If you see anything weird please comment on my talk page after you've reverted my edits.

When this experiment ends, I don't have a plan for that yet. User input might help.

This is where I make notes of decisions that may motivate me to do edits in places. It should include both inputs and outputs and what kind of &quot;version&quot; of &quot;AI&quot;s/LLMs I'm using:
* [[/April 20th Experiment Notes|&quot;AI Notes&quot; for motivation purposes in this &quot;experiment&quot;]]

=== Defining the end goal ===

The end goal is supposed to make me make useful edits or being able to make edits or contributions on more than just only the projects I'm &quot;mainly&quot; interested in.

'''Success Criteria'''

* &quot;Did the AI's output lead me to make a useful edit on a page I wouldn't have thought about and/or chosen on my own?&quot;
** This question was modified by myself based on an AI's output(this part was generated by &quot;AI Mode&quot; on May 1, 2026)

== Coursera schedule and notes ==

Today April 16, 2026 my contributions contain a lot of spelling mistakes. They may be present other days too. You'll probably spot spelling mistakes all over.

My studying schedule as I've understood it so far(studying with my mother):

This schedule is not reliable(cause my studying partner keeps changing the time, which is not necessarily bad):

UTC TIME: 07:30 - 09:30 (2 hours a day, 6 hours a week)
* Monday
* Thursday
* Saturday

== I'm studying on Coursera and about their Terms of Use ==
'''Nothing here is legal advice'''. This is very important.
Nothing in this &quot;Wikisection&quot; constitutes legal advice! Please don't blindly follow my advice and if someone copies some parts of this text without providing context then they are responsible for what they share! If you have been tricked by scammers that's sad but I am NOT responsible for illegal activities.

* web.archive.org/web/20260325233813/https://www.coursera.org/about/terms

&quot;When you create your Coursera account, and when you subsequently use certain features, you must provide us with accurate and complete information, and you agree to update your information to keep it accurate and complete.&quot;

My interpretation of that is that on Coursera I have to provide a real name. There is a field for &quot;Full name&quot;(retrieved 2026-04-09 UTC YYYY-MM-DD). How does that correspond to these terms? It doesn't say &quot;Real name&quot; but even if it did, what if I choose a name for myself and I'd like to call myself ThinkingScience? Is it still accurate? 

They don't specify what I actually have to do, just based on my quote. It would be nice for me and other Coursera learners to know what is true. Is the privacy on Wikiversity better? I'd say it is because on Coursera we are forced to provide an email address to create an account. We are not forced to do that on Wikiversity, Wikidata etc.

== notes about this account ==

This account is an alternative account on a computer I don't trust. It should never be allowed to vote and if it does please block this account. Doubling down on this today at 2026-04-30!(intent unchanged)

It's an alt of [[User:Dekatriofovia]] which unfortunately I have to prove right now despite me being in a hurry...so I'll edit my account at Dekatriofovia at the same time almost and publish at the same time...so you know it's me.

The reason for this account is it's on a computer with a bigger screen so I can more easily read books and documents.

== a thing I did not regret(modified section title) ==

This may be blathering but it ends with another Wikilink where I will pass my &quot;idea&quot; through '''Wikiversity:Research ethics''' and through anything else that might be required before anything enters Draft space. The &quot;idea&quot; is &quot;'''The Neurodiversity-inspired idea'''&quot;.

[[Protoscience]] was an interesting read. I think it will be calming for me if my idea is proven to be pseudoscience cause I can stop worrying about it and leave it behind me. &quot;The Neurodiversity-inspired idea&quot;(in lack for a better name, for now) will not be published in main space, only in draft space.

[[Wikiversity:Original research]] made me think &quot;I may be way over my head&quot; (though I stumbled around a bit due to not knowing English at an advanced enough level...this parenthesis is about some unimportant trivia).

I'm gonna place everything regarding &quot;The Neurodiversity-inspired idea&quot; into draft space and pass it through '''Wikiversity:Research ethics'''(sorry for repeating myself) and anything else I can find and also ask the community here on Wikiversity what else to place it through.

I thought I was gonna create '''User:ThinkingScience/The Neurodiversity-inspired Idea'''(but turns out I was encouraged to create it in Draft: space ... (this paragraph has been modified. Edit history might keep the original). Here are my notes again which I wanted to link to [[User:ThinkingScience/ND Inspired Idea Notebook]]

'''Draft:The Neurodiversity-inspired Idea''' that probably is in line with &quot;be bold&quot;.

=== It happened, a small burden has been lifted ===

I posted to the [[Wikiversity:Colloquium]] https://en.wikiversity.org/w/index.php?title=Wikiversity:Colloquium&amp;oldid=2805080

Thing may be archive in the future. I've lost many things that way.(but also re-discovered many things that landed in the archive that I had posted too!)

One week. One small burden lifted. It was the only way forward. I may have been driven insane otherwise or this is just a very bad day I'm having. Full of things that &quot;real life&quot; is demanding of me.

More specifically, this is what I posted [[Wikiversity:Colloquium#Advice_needed:_A_Neurodiversity-inspired_Idea/observation]]

== Posting on talk pages using &quot;Quasi-AI&quot; depending on user preference ==

This is a list of users who have told me how they prefer maximum amount of characters/words to be if I post on their talk page using &quot;Quasi-AI&quot;[1](whatever that is since there's no such Q item nor alias on Wikidata right now regarding that term):
* [[User:Juandev]] - max amount of words: 100 as long as it respects [[Wikiversity:Artificial Intelligence]]

== References ==
[1] - https://en.wikiversity.org/w/index.php?title=Is_the_output_of_ChatGPT_copyrighted%3F&amp;oldid=2711065 {{quote|ChatGPT is an automated quasi-AI technology that allows human-like text console interaction online in which a human can ask questions and ChatGPT returns answers.}}</text>
      <sha1>7v04zvgp4kth0e7amgwrtxun7xlt56s</sha1>
    </revision>
  </page>
  <page>
    <title>Draft:The Neurodiversity-inspired Idea</title>
    <ns>118</ns>
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      <id>2808120</id>
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      <timestamp>2026-05-10T02:03:54Z</timestamp>
      <contributor>
        <username>ThinkingScience</username>
        <id>3061446</id>
      </contributor>
      <comment>/* Naming Suggestions */ New section: == Potential best-case uses of &quot;idea&quot; if fully developed ==</comment>
      <origin>2808120</origin>
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{{AI-generated}}

{{Notice|'''Please excuse mistakes and problems''' this is a work in progress and pages may be published which are unfinished and that contain unfinished sentences and repetitions}}

== Explanation regarding {{tl|AI-generated}} template presence on this page ==

* Some questions that can be asked have been generated where there is a note about it. (&quot;AI Mode&quot; by Google)
* If something has been generated by an &quot;AI&quot;/LLM then please make a note of that so the reader knows. Also please document the specific &quot;AI name&quot;, ie. &quot;AI Mode&quot;, &quot;GPT-5 mini&quot; etc. as long as that name is enough to find the AI/LLM on Wikidata or on Wikipedia.

For questions that have been &quot;AI-Generated&quot; this section has been created to document the queries/input:
* [[Draft:The Neurodiversity-inspired Idea/AI Prompt History for Questions|Please document your input and output here when interacting with an AI/LLM]]

== Hypothes-is/-es ==

Preliminary date for basics of hypothesis/hypotheses being developed: June 16, 2026.

=== In preparation for Hypothes-is/-es: Core Assumption Example ===

Google's &quot;AI Mode&quot; was used on 2026-04-29 and the formation of an &quot;example Core Assumption&quot; was made. The following is input sent to &quot;AI Mode&quot;:

{{quote|This I posted previously:

{{quote|Example of a &quot;Core Assumption&quot;: That not &quot;Everybody is different&quot; in brain structure but that some humen show so great similarities between each other that one might say &quot;it is the same brain&quot;. If that fails, my idea fails completely.}}

This I'm thinking about posting now and I want your output based on this input:

Example of a &quot;Core Assumption&quot;: That not &quot;Everybody is different&quot; in brain structure but that some humen show so great similarities between each other that one might say &quot;it is the same brain&quot;. I assume that that my core assumption and &quot;main idea&quot; can be fully broken by measurement of Rapport. I assume that I can predict better rapport between individuals who interact for the first time compared to a random sample. If that fails, my idea fails completely.}}

The system in which predictions are made regarding the related hypotheses are assumed to be found in the data. Studying the data should lead to understanding how to make the predictions in the hypotheses.

== Data ==

There is currently no data.

== Original Motivations ==

This section can list motivations by each user who contributes content or questions to this page.
* '''User:ThinkingScience''' My motivation is related to perceived limited progress by psychiatry and getting inspired by writers exploring Neurodiversity topics. I don't feel I have a right to have an opinion about psychiatry considering this idea's methodology is being developed during the publishing(and before) of this edit. It is my hope that if this idea develops how I expect it to it will be an &quot;extra parameter&quot; that some other sciences can use, including psychiatry. It is my hope that this idea will thus help psychiatry develop in a great way though my personal hope is it will help sociology more.
* Example user x
* Example user y etc.

== &quot;Do no harm&quot; ==

This section can list ideas/comments by users who are trying to do no harm while using their methodology(which should be documented on this page, if possible!):
* '''User:ThinkingScience''' Considering I am watching videos of famous people in interviews. I am making notes...my goal should be that not only my public notes are following the &quot;Do no harm&quot; but that my private notes do as well. That can be my goal for now. We'll see how this develops...
* Example user x
* Example user y etc.

Do no harm links from [[Wikiversity:Research ethics]] into Wikipedia with no examples for Wikiversity users specifically, yet.

== &quot;Research projects must fully document the methods&quot; ==

{{quote|Safety - Research must be conducted in a safe and lawful manner. Do no harm.}}

An idea for the minimum age of the subjects which are &quot;studied&quot; in a &quot;Do no harm&quot; way, if even possible, might be 29 years of age. There is disagreement regarding the exact age of a person when their brain matures and it may benefit the student/contributor if the &quot;starting age&quot; or &quot;minimum age&quot; is high enough so that a person with a &quot;fully matured brain&quot; also has some experience living with that fully matured brain.

💡💡💡'''Suggestion: 29 minimum years of age for anyone participating in this project.'''💡💡💡 for the sake of &quot;Do no harm&quot;?

which is described on [[Wikiversity:Research ethics]] that links to Wikipedia. This section needs work.

One of the methodologies is to watch a video, ie. a video interview of famous people or footage where the researcher has gotten legal access and specific consent from any person appearing in the video footage.

Methodologies need to be developed where data is gathered in a way that adheres to &quot;Do no harm&quot;.

=== Focusing on creating a &quot;Do no harm&quot;-compliant method ===

This needs to be developed.

This sub-page is created so we can make video notes. We can watch a video and then we can make video notes. We must do the video notes by following [[Wikiversity:Research ethics]] and &quot;Do no harm&quot;. How to do that can be tricky. &quot;Do no harm&quot; links to Wikipedia because we don't have our own resource where we help you how to do that.

=== method of interacting with draft and other pages on Wikiversity ===

&quot;AI Mode&quot; by Google can be used to get inspired by what kind of things to focus on, including if one thinks they started &quot;blathering&quot; and the text started to grow 'for no apparent reason' because the user landed in a &quot;non-productive behavior&quot; and the repeating themselves kept going on and on.

Prompts that generate questions and other things could be added into a subsection of this draft research

=== Video Notes before the creation of a more 'stable' method that adheres to &quot;Do no harm&quot; ===

* [[/Method_development_through_video_notes|Video Notes]]

== Questions that might encourage the development of this idea and its methodology ==

Questions that encouraged certain dates of time:
* June 16: Two months after the creation of the project some 'basic form' of a/- hypothes-is/-es should exist. ie. measuring rapport. How rapport can/will be measured. What tools can be used. How one makes &quot;first contact&quot; with people. Challenges and work to be done regarding the &quot;main hypothesis&quot;. This is a prediction. Time will tell if a &quot;main hypothesis&quot; will be ready by June 16.

'''The New Way: 100% human generated questions and answers''':

If a student/contributor figures out their own questions without the help of an AI/&quot;AI&quot;/LLM please contribute in this section. Otherwise go to &quot;The Old Way&quot; section and contribute there.

Questions in no particular order:
* Is this &quot;idea&quot; testable?
- It is in the plans for it to be testable '''but not testable yet'''.

* Is it possible to create one or more hypotheses based on this &quot;idea&quot;?
- Multiple hypotheses have been made but never published. Plan is to publish hypotheses related to the &quot;idea&quot; in the future.
* Is there a hypothesis or a number of hypotheses related to the idea?
** Can this idea be proven false?
- It can not yet be proven false considering a hypothesis is not currently described. Goal is to have a hypothesis at least before June 16, 2026 which is 2 months roughly after the first creation of the page. 
A basic hypothesis structure may/should exist by then but a complete hypothesis being created that is &quot;perfect in some ways&quot; that can't be predicted yet.

'''The Old Way'''

This is for any AI/LLM that is available to you. Please document the output here and if you want to contribute the input prompts and more specific details go to the subpage [[Draft:The_Neurodiversity-inspired_Idea/AI_Prompt_History_for_Questions]]

Questions and 'follow up'-/improved questions generated by Google &quot;AI Mode&quot;:
* What is missing right now?
** &quot;Improved&quot; version: &quot;What key sections are missing from this research draft to meet Wikiversity standards?&quot;
* How will we know if the idea is working?

== Naming Suggestions ==

Feel free to edit/modify or remove content in this section.

Example name ideas:
* Pre-research: Observations made inside psychiatry spectrums
* Psychiatric Spectrum Specifications

''These names should probably not be used but were kept for inspiring questions in readers'':
* Next-Gen Brain Types
* Next-Gen Sociology
* Next-Gen Neurotypes

== Potential best-case uses of &quot;idea&quot; if fully developed ==

This section is for expected best-case uses for the &quot;idea&quot; if fully developed. 
Probably best to keep this section short. Assumptions may develop from it otherwise. Maybe max 5 items?
* Could assist in better matchmaking in relationships where &quot;compatibility&quot;/&quot;rapport&quot; is important.
* Better matchmaking in romantic relationships.

== References/in-Wikiversity-Wikilinks ==

This section is for linking to specific references:

* [2] - [[Draft:The_Neurodiversity-inspired_Idea/AI_Prompt_History_for_Questions#Reference_2]]


== Future references to this draft ==

In the event that other publications start referring to this draft in the future, the template &quot;findsources&quot; is added:

{{findsources}}</text>
      <sha1>aljqoatpqxpzrunyskgx7yhenz2p98v</sha1>
    </revision>
  </page>
  <page>
    <title>Draft:The Neurodiversity-inspired Idea/AI Prompt History for Questions</title>
    <ns>118</ns>
    <id>329180</id>
    <revision>
      <id>2808115</id>
      <parentid>2806803</parentid>
      <timestamp>2026-05-10T01:18:37Z</timestamp>
      <contributor>
        <username>ThinkingScience</username>
        <id>3061446</id>
      </contributor>
      <comment>/* &quot;Reference Coding&quot; */ requested AI response at 50 words max. Tom Hanks is the 2nd person suggested by AI Mode</comment>
      <origin>2808115</origin>
      <model>wikitext</model>
      <format>text/x-wiki</format>
      <text bytes="9366" sha1="sgols475dvghbogi349yrquf4n6n8jf" xml:space="preserve">{{AI-generated}}

For practical purposes we can assume that everything on this page is &quot;AI-generated&quot;. Where it is not, it will be stated.

How questions were generated appear on this page for transparency reasons. The input and output questions are documented.

This is a page where one can get a question and then work further to refine the question. This is some disorganized inputs and outputs. Inputs are sent to an AI/LLM and outputs is about what the AI/LLM gives the user.

When it says &quot;'''human output'''&quot; that means that a user thought of a question based on an AI's/LLM's question. Simply a follow-up question to an AI's/LLM's question.

== &quot;AI Mode&quot; by Google inputs/outputs ==

News: In this section today at April 27, 2026 a new 'data point'/method for noting down multiple inputs which were typed before without the output as the previous output may be ignored because only the latest output may be interesting for the user. We call this:

* &quot;pre-input&quot; - &quot;pre-input&quot; are inputs that were sent before the main input where we also provide the output. The pre-inputs don't need their own outputs as that adds too much complexity and we try to avoid spamming Wikiversity.

Please feel free to add subsections here.

* human input April 18, 2026: I have an idea and I'm developing the idea here on English Wikiversity: Draft:The Neurodiversity-inspired Idea. What kind of questions might I need to move forward. I'm looking for academic feedback. The problem is &quot;people don't understand themselves&quot; and have to go through &quot;dragged-out diagnosis processes&quot; by psychiatrists. The problem to be solved: how the brain works and presenting a system how it can be mapped.
** output Purpose: &quot;What specific problem does this idea solve for the reader?&quot;
** output Reach: &quot;Who is the primary 'student' for this draft?&quot;
*** human output: Who is the target audience for this draft?
** output Validation: &quot;What existing research or lived experience supports this claim?&quot;
** output Interactivity: &quot;What can a reader do with this information right now?&quot;

* human input: Is a &quot;neurotype&quot; up for debate? Does every researcher have their own definition of what a &quot;neurotype&quot; is? Based on this input can you suggest better questhe tions?

=== Creating a hypothesis ===

Misspellings have been kept. Don't correct misspellings in inputs or outputs. Misspellings are data.

* pre inputs by human to &quot;AI Mode&quot; on April 27, 2026
** operationalization (Q286017) describes itself on Wikidata as: &quot;process of defining the measurement of a phenomenon that is not directly measurable, though its existence is indicated by other phenomena&quot; What does that mean in 20 words max?
** what is operationalization for ie. a hypothesis about whether sunlight is good for plants or not?
** I operationalization a scientific concept and is it available on wikiversity?
** Can a hypothesis be created for this project? https://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Draft:The_Neurodiversity-inspired_Idea#%22Research_projects_must_fully_document_the_methods%22
** neurodiversity-inspired is not the same thing as neurodiversity-based
** bro you are lost in the neurodiversity mumbo jumbo
** Let's just agree on one thing: If I don't tell you what I'm thinking, you won't know? Correct?
** so that's why I should provide some input, but question is when?
** What do you mean now? Now now or now?(joke)
** Whenever I am ready. That's well explained! I am not yet ready so while I'm not ready please don't blather like a...like a...
** When I'm ready I'll telll you, then you'll respond and then I will send you my idea, ok?
** I'm not ready yet. My hypothesis or hypotheses are measuring rapport between individuals. For the hypothesis I need to state how rapport will be measured.
* human input to same &quot;AI Mode&quot; on April 27, 2026: So the individuals that participate in the 'sociological' hypothesis experiment will interact through the tool known as &quot;Etherpad&quot;.
** &quot;AI Mode&quot; output same date: {{quote|That is a great choice for a study because Etherpad produces a literal &quot;paper trail&quot; of the interaction. Since it's a collaborative text editor, you can track rapport through the digital footprint of how people type together.
When you are ready to send your full idea, we can look at measuring rapport in Etherpad through things like:

* Synchronicity: How often they type at the exact same time.
* Editing behavior: Do they delete each other's work or build upon it?
* Chat usage: How much they use the side-bar chat versus the main document.

I'll keep it brief as requested. Standing by for your signal.}}

=== Methodology questions ===

* human input April 20, 2026: On Wikiversity they say &quot;ask the right questions with your idea&quot;. I got an idea, this is my idea: &quot;The Neurodiversity-inspired idea&quot;. My methodology is about watching videos of famous people but I want to do the public notes in a way that doesn't &quot;offend the famous people&quot; when I compare them with other famous people.
** output: &quot;How does this person's way of processing information differ from or similar to the other person in this comparison?&quot;, &quot;What strengths or 'superpowers' are evident in how they navigate this specific situation?&quot;. Strategy for Non-Offensive Public Notes. Focus on Behaviours, Not Diagnoses: Only comment on observed actions or statements. Use phrases like, &quot;Their speaking style is consistent with...&quot; rather than &quot;They are...&quot;.

'''Methodology questions'''

When watching a famous person in a video interview in the current &quot;methodology&quot;:
* How does this person's way of processing information differ to another person in this comparison? (modified by a human)
* What strengths or 'superpowers' are evident in how they navigate this specific situation?

==== Failures in output we can learn from in Methodology questions to AIs/LLMs ====

It's not always easy to find the right questions. When the question has some problems that causes an output that doesn't make sense they can be put in this section.

* human input April 19, 2026: I'm looking for an English-Wikiversity-compliant methodology to study famous people in video interviews while &quot;being allowed&quot; to group them together without it being &quot;heresy&quot; in scientific communities. Can you formulate that as a question?
** output &quot;didn't make sense&quot; / &quot;was irrelevant&quot; (conclusion by human contributor)

== &quot;Reference Coding&quot; ==

'''⚠️⚠️⚠️ WARNING ⚠️⚠️⚠️: Very important. This section's name should not be changed because other pages already link here and if the section's name is changed those links will break! For any questions please use the talk page.'''

Here happens a &quot;reference coding&quot; so it's easy to find an input when it is being referenced from another page on Wikiversity. ie. [1] should be the same as [1] on another page which is referencing the [1] here.

These inputs/outputs were done with &quot;AI Mode&quot; by Google.

* Reference [1]
* human input April 22: I need somebody who is a famous person and that we can tie to the word &quot;draft&quot; even indirectly and that is a modern person and that appears in many different video interviews.
** output: A compelling modern person for your &quot;Method development&quot; section is Taylor Swift. She is a modern icon who appears in countless video interviews and can be tied directly to the word &quot;draft&quot; through her creative process and public statements.

=== Reference 2 ===

Making an own Wiki-section is what might work better.

* human input to &quot;AI Mode&quot; on April 27, 2026: So the individuals that participate in the 'sociological' hypothesis experiment will interact through the tool known as &quot;Etherpad&quot;.
** &quot;AI Mode&quot; output same date: {{quote|That is a great choice for a study because Etherpad produces a literal &quot;paper trail&quot; of the interaction. Since it's a collaborative text editor, you can track rapport through the digital footprint of how people type together.
When you are ready to send your full idea, we can look at measuring rapport in Etherpad through things like:

* Synchronicity: How often they type at the exact same time.
* Editing behavior: Do they delete each other's work or build upon it?
* Chat usage: How much they use the side-bar chat versus the main document.

I'll keep it brief as requested. Standing by for your signal.}}

=== Reference 3 ===

Method is being developed as this is written...this is the 2nd person being added to &quot;the idea&quot;.

* Human input May 10, 2026: Answer in English. I need you to suggest somebody who is a modern famous and public person and that appears in many different video interviews, that we can less or more 'loosely' associate with the word &quot;The&quot; which is the 2nd word in draft project based on this URL https://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Draft:The_Neurodiversity-inspired_Idea/Method_development_through_video_notes. The previous person that was chosen was Taylor Swift. Please select somebody who can be compared in a &quot;Do no harm&quot; way. If the person is somebody Taylor Swift has feuded with please don't suggest them! Answer max 50 words.
** &quot;AI Mode&quot; output same date: {{quote|Tom Hanks is a great choice. He is often called &quot;The&quot; quintessential nice guy or &quot;The American Dad.&quot; Like Taylor Swift, he is a massive, clean-cut public figure with endless video interviews. He avoids controversy and fits a &quot;do no harm&quot; philosophy perfectly.
Would you like to explore Tom Hanks' specific interviews for your project?}}</text>
      <sha1>sgols475dvghbogi349yrquf4n6n8jf</sha1>
    </revision>
  </page>
  <page>
    <title>Draft:The Neurodiversity-inspired Idea/Method development through video notes</title>
    <ns>118</ns>
    <id>329210</id>
    <revision>
      <id>2808113</id>
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      <timestamp>2026-05-10T00:46:06Z</timestamp>
      <contributor>
        <username>ThinkingScience</username>
        <id>3061446</id>
      </contributor>
      <comment>/* Choosing video material */ I came up with this idea today about how to ensure &quot;Do no harm&quot; is followed. No comparison ever between feuding people</comment>
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      <format>text/x-wiki</format>
      <text bytes="6184" sha1="gucna45ir04bpcc5zg1yner7d8mz5ix" xml:space="preserve">{{AI-generated}}

== What {{tl|AI-generated}} means on this page ==

It means that the content on this page may be generated in the future. This is merely to &quot;future-proof&quot; this page as it may be assumed it is inevitable that one day even the content might be auto-generated and this notice existing might help students/contributors to let them know that there is a current &quot;influence&quot; by &quot;AI programs&quot; on this page, if not by content at least by influencing decisions.

If any content is generated contributors are encouraged to edit this section and make the appropriate changes to let students know that there has been a change.

What it means for now is that the contributors to this page are encouraged to interact with an &quot;AI&quot;/LLM in regards to 
* decision-making on what to focus on next that this page may need
* brainstorming with the &quot;AI program&quot; of their choice regarding what to contribute next
* ask &quot;AI program&quot; for advice on how to contribute video notes in a [[Wikiversity:Research ethics]]-way and a &quot;Do no harm&quot;/&quot;Primum non nocere&quot; way.

== Original Intent ==

The intent for this page is for it to be used to develop a 'method' for working with &quot;materials&quot; like video interviews of famous people or video interviews/content of volunteers who sign up for [[Draft:The Neurodiversity-inspired Idea]].

== Contributor/Student Questions ==

If a contributor doesn't feel to edit this page directly but the contributor/student wants to ask a question to encourage development or they have any other question, this section is for that. '''Remember: No question is stupid!'''

== Beginning work - Video notes adhering to &quot;Do no harm&quot;/&quot;Primum non nocere&quot; ==

This is the section for main content for this page which is video notes. The way one makes video notes on this page may set the example for the method that will be developed in the future.

Goal is to treat famous people like any other people: like human beings. How one expresses oneself is very important and the original creator of this page may not be the best in that area, thus '''feel free to be bold and edit this page'''.

The start is usually the hardest and based on the idea name one can focus on any famous person related to the words 
* draft
* neurodiversity
* inspiration
* idea

This is how this start is made. This idea may be lacking but one starts making mistakes, then later we learn how to do it better and then we fix those mistakes.

== Choosing video material ==

Video notes can wait. Let's focus first on choosing video material.

Why can video notes wait? The first task is choosing the video material and explaining why the specific material was chosen. It may not always be easy to take a decision and ie. ChatGPT or &quot;AI Mode&quot; can sometimes be used to make it easier to just choose something so one can focus on work and less on decisions. For some students/contributors that may be helpful.

The video notes though may be done step by step, one chooses a video material, explains the reasoning behind it and then focuses on working on the video notes in a &quot;Do no harm&quot; manner.

* How to associate the first person we focus on regarding the word ''draft''? Using &quot;AI Mode&quot; by Google on April 22, 2026, as a way to make &quot;decisions easier&quot; this input helped this project moving forward(feedback/comments appreciated) with the first &quot;choice&quot;: 
** Taylor Swift[1]

Taylor Swift is associated with the word ''draft'' in that she has been open in videos about her music creation process.

That makes this project focus on Taylor Swift.

=== Responsibility in regards to choosing video material ===

In this section if you feel free like listing yourself feel free to. Adhering to &quot;Do no harm&quot; can be very challenging. Though we have to try our best to achieve this.

It may be good or even necessary to explain why a choice was made so that anyone joining this project can be sure that there was a 100% human judgement made when choosing a subject. 

As this project deals with real human beings similar to how psychiatry deals with real human beings with ie. the Autism Spectrum, the Bipolar Spectrum and similar were chosen and worked on, it dealt with real people. Psychiatry though dealt/deal mainly with children and this project deals mainly with adults. Preferably adults whose brains have fully matured and who have lived a few years with a fully matured brain which may mean 29 years of age which may be a good minimum age for this project.

This is a section where a user who is a contributor would like to take responsibility for a choice:
* [[User:ThinkingScience]]. I hereby take responsibility for the following choices: Taylor Swift. Read on my user page more at [[User:ThinkingScience#T]] why I made this choice.
* Example user 2

=== People chosen ===

Do no harm will be challenging but is a requirement. Video notes must be respectful and not harm the individual. 

'''For that to be achieved if two or more individuals are compared they must not have been in a feud or in a conflict with each other'''.
'''If they weren't in a feud and they are in the future, the notes of the most recent version must be removed/modified regarding any comparisons of currently feuding individuals.'''

This must be done to ensure the &quot;Do no harm&quot; requirement is met for this project.

* Taylor Swift[1]

== How the Linking References System works ==

ie. [1], [2] etc.

This section may be superfluous once a better system has replaced this.

Purpose: teach the students/contributors how to link to a central place where human generated inputs are made and &quot;AI-generated&quot; outputs results are made.

When you see ie. a [1] that means that you can find that [1] input made by a human and output most probably made by a an &quot;AI program&quot; or Large Language Model here if you look hard enough. Otherwise please submit feedback for how the user experience was. Here's the page: [[Draft:The_Neurodiversity-inspired_Idea/AI_Prompt_History_for_Questions#&quot;Reference_Coding&quot;]]

=== References/in-Wikiversity-Wikilinks ===

'''Most importantly''':

All in-Wikiversity references like ie. [1] can be found at [[Draft:The_Neurodiversity-inspired_Idea/AI_Prompt_History_for_Questions#&quot;Reference_Coding&quot;]]</text>
      <sha1>gucna45ir04bpcc5zg1yner7d8mz5ix</sha1>
    </revision>
    <revision>
      <id>2808114</id>
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      <timestamp>2026-05-10T00:48:16Z</timestamp>
      <contributor>
        <username>ThinkingScience</username>
        <id>3061446</id>
      </contributor>
      <comment>/* Responsibility in regards to choosing video material */ &quot;user choices&quot; instead of just &quot;user&quot;</comment>
      <origin>2808114</origin>
      <model>wikitext</model>
      <format>text/x-wiki</format>
      <text bytes="6263" sha1="klexv34hx5uzn856r8rc4g2axltwpj8" xml:space="preserve">{{AI-generated}}

== What {{tl|AI-generated}} means on this page ==

It means that the content on this page may be generated in the future. This is merely to &quot;future-proof&quot; this page as it may be assumed it is inevitable that one day even the content might be auto-generated and this notice existing might help students/contributors to let them know that there is a current &quot;influence&quot; by &quot;AI programs&quot; on this page, if not by content at least by influencing decisions.

If any content is generated contributors are encouraged to edit this section and make the appropriate changes to let students know that there has been a change.

What it means for now is that the contributors to this page are encouraged to interact with an &quot;AI&quot;/LLM in regards to 
* decision-making on what to focus on next that this page may need
* brainstorming with the &quot;AI program&quot; of their choice regarding what to contribute next
* ask &quot;AI program&quot; for advice on how to contribute video notes in a [[Wikiversity:Research ethics]]-way and a &quot;Do no harm&quot;/&quot;Primum non nocere&quot; way.

== Original Intent ==

The intent for this page is for it to be used to develop a 'method' for working with &quot;materials&quot; like video interviews of famous people or video interviews/content of volunteers who sign up for [[Draft:The Neurodiversity-inspired Idea]].

== Contributor/Student Questions ==

If a contributor doesn't feel to edit this page directly but the contributor/student wants to ask a question to encourage development or they have any other question, this section is for that. '''Remember: No question is stupid!'''

== Beginning work - Video notes adhering to &quot;Do no harm&quot;/&quot;Primum non nocere&quot; ==

This is the section for main content for this page which is video notes. The way one makes video notes on this page may set the example for the method that will be developed in the future.

Goal is to treat famous people like any other people: like human beings. How one expresses oneself is very important and the original creator of this page may not be the best in that area, thus '''feel free to be bold and edit this page'''.

The start is usually the hardest and based on the idea name one can focus on any famous person related to the words 
* draft
* neurodiversity
* inspiration
* idea

This is how this start is made. This idea may be lacking but one starts making mistakes, then later we learn how to do it better and then we fix those mistakes.

== Choosing video material ==

Video notes can wait. Let's focus first on choosing video material.

Why can video notes wait? The first task is choosing the video material and explaining why the specific material was chosen. It may not always be easy to take a decision and ie. ChatGPT or &quot;AI Mode&quot; can sometimes be used to make it easier to just choose something so one can focus on work and less on decisions. For some students/contributors that may be helpful.

The video notes though may be done step by step, one chooses a video material, explains the reasoning behind it and then focuses on working on the video notes in a &quot;Do no harm&quot; manner.

* How to associate the first person we focus on regarding the word ''draft''? Using &quot;AI Mode&quot; by Google on April 22, 2026, as a way to make &quot;decisions easier&quot; this input helped this project moving forward(feedback/comments appreciated) with the first &quot;choice&quot;: 
** Taylor Swift[1]

Taylor Swift is associated with the word ''draft'' in that she has been open in videos about her music creation process.

That makes this project focus on Taylor Swift.

=== Responsibility in regards to choosing video material ===

In this section if you feel free like listing yourself feel free to. Adhering to &quot;Do no harm&quot; can be very challenging. Though we have to try our best to achieve this.

It may be good or even necessary to explain why a choice was made so that anyone joining this project can be sure that there was a 100% human judgement made when choosing a subject. 

As this project deals with real human beings similar to how psychiatry deals with real human beings with ie. the Autism Spectrum, the Bipolar Spectrum and similar were chosen and worked on, it dealt with real people. Psychiatry though dealt/deal mainly with children and this project deals mainly with adults. Preferably adults whose brains have fully matured and who have lived a few years with a fully matured brain which may mean 29 years of age which may be a good minimum age for this project.

This is a section where a user who is a contributor would like to take responsibility for a choice:
* [[User:ThinkingScience]]. I hereby take responsibility for the following choices: Taylor Swift. Read on my user page more at [[User:ThinkingScience#T]] why I made this choice.
* Example user choice 2
* Example user choice 3
* Example user choice 4
* Example user choice 5

=== People chosen ===

Do no harm will be challenging but is a requirement. Video notes must be respectful and not harm the individual. 

'''For that to be achieved if two or more individuals are compared they must not have been in a feud or in a conflict with each other'''.
'''If they weren't in a feud and they are in the future, the notes of the most recent version must be removed/modified regarding any comparisons of currently feuding individuals.'''

This must be done to ensure the &quot;Do no harm&quot; requirement is met for this project.

* Taylor Swift[1]

== How the Linking References System works ==

ie. [1], [2] etc.

This section may be superfluous once a better system has replaced this.

Purpose: teach the students/contributors how to link to a central place where human generated inputs are made and &quot;AI-generated&quot; outputs results are made.

When you see ie. a [1] that means that you can find that [1] input made by a human and output most probably made by a an &quot;AI program&quot; or Large Language Model here if you look hard enough. Otherwise please submit feedback for how the user experience was. Here's the page: [[Draft:The_Neurodiversity-inspired_Idea/AI_Prompt_History_for_Questions#&quot;Reference_Coding&quot;]]

=== References/in-Wikiversity-Wikilinks ===

'''Most importantly''':

All in-Wikiversity references like ie. [1] can be found at [[Draft:The_Neurodiversity-inspired_Idea/AI_Prompt_History_for_Questions#&quot;Reference_Coding&quot;]]</text>
      <sha1>klexv34hx5uzn856r8rc4g2axltwpj8</sha1>
    </revision>
    <revision>
      <id>2808116</id>
      <parentid>2808114</parentid>
      <timestamp>2026-05-10T01:43:58Z</timestamp>
      <contributor>
        <username>ThinkingScience</username>
        <id>3061446</id>
      </contributor>
      <comment>Tom Hanks is the next famous public person I add and link to AI reference provided</comment>
      <origin>2808116</origin>
      <model>wikitext</model>
      <format>text/x-wiki</format>
      <text bytes="6436" sha1="8tda3l8qig2w4mv1g09hcisg136jg88" xml:space="preserve">{{AI-generated}}

== What {{tl|AI-generated}} means on this page ==

It means that the content on this page may be generated in the future. This is merely to &quot;future-proof&quot; this page as it may be assumed it is inevitable that one day even the content might be auto-generated and this notice existing might help students/contributors to let them know that there is a current &quot;influence&quot; by &quot;AI programs&quot; on this page, if not by content at least by influencing decisions.

If any content is generated contributors are encouraged to edit this section and make the appropriate changes to let students know that there has been a change.

What it means for now is that the contributors to this page are encouraged to interact with an &quot;AI&quot;/LLM in regards to 
* decision-making on what to focus on next that this page may need
* brainstorming with the &quot;AI program&quot; of their choice regarding what to contribute next
* ask &quot;AI program&quot; for advice on how to contribute video notes in a [[Wikiversity:Research ethics]]-way and a &quot;Do no harm&quot;/&quot;Primum non nocere&quot; way.

== Original Intent ==

The intent for this page is for it to be used to develop a 'method' for working with &quot;materials&quot; like video interviews of famous people or video interviews/content of volunteers who sign up for [[Draft:The Neurodiversity-inspired Idea]].

== Contributor/Student Questions ==

If a contributor doesn't feel to edit this page directly but the contributor/student wants to ask a question to encourage development or they have any other question, this section is for that. '''Remember: No question is stupid!'''

== Beginning work - Video notes adhering to &quot;Do no harm&quot;/&quot;Primum non nocere&quot; ==

This is the section for main content for this page which is video notes. The way one makes video notes on this page may set the example for the method that will be developed in the future.

Goal is to treat famous people like any other people: like human beings. How one expresses oneself is very important and the original creator of this page may not be the best in that area, thus '''feel free to be bold and edit this page'''.

The start is usually the hardest and based on the idea name one can focus on any famous person related to the words 
* draft
* neurodiversity
* inspiration
* idea

This is how this start is made. This idea may be lacking but one starts making mistakes, then later we learn how to do it better and then we fix those mistakes.

== Choosing video material ==

Video notes can wait. Let's focus first on choosing video material.

Why can video notes wait? The first task is choosing the video material and explaining why the specific material was chosen. It may not always be easy to take a decision and ie. ChatGPT or &quot;AI Mode&quot; can sometimes be used to make it easier to just choose something so one can focus on work and less on decisions. For some students/contributors that may be helpful.

The video notes though may be done step by step, one chooses a video material, explains the reasoning behind it and then focuses on working on the video notes in a &quot;Do no harm&quot; manner.

* How to associate the first person we focus on regarding the word ''draft''? Using &quot;AI Mode&quot; by Google on April 22, 2026, as a way to make &quot;decisions easier&quot; this input helped this project moving forward(feedback/comments appreciated) with the first &quot;choice&quot;: 
** Taylor Swift[1]
* Tom Hanks[2]

Taylor Swift is associated with the word ''draft'' in that she has been open in videos about her music creation process.

That makes this project focus on Taylor Swift as 1st person being added regarding 'video notes'.

=== Responsibility in regards to choosing video material ===

In this section if you feel free like listing yourself feel free to. Adhering to &quot;Do no harm&quot; can be very challenging. Though we have to try our best to achieve this.

It may be good or even necessary to explain why a choice was made so that anyone joining this project can be sure that there was a 100% human judgement made when choosing a subject. 

As this project deals with real human beings similar to how psychiatry deals with real human beings with ie. the Autism Spectrum, the Bipolar Spectrum and similar were chosen and worked on, it dealt with real people. Psychiatry though dealt/deal mainly with children and this project deals mainly with adults. Preferably adults whose brains have fully matured and who have lived a few years with a fully matured brain which may mean 29 years of age which may be a good minimum age for this project.

This is a section where a user who is a contributor would like to take responsibility for a choice:
* [[User:ThinkingScience]]. I hereby take responsibility for the following choices: Taylor Swift. Read on my user page more at [[User:ThinkingScience#T]] why I made this choice.
* Example user choice 2
* Example user choice 3
* Example user choice 4
* Example user choice 5

=== People chosen ===

Do no harm will be challenging but is a requirement. Video notes must be respectful and not harm the individual. 

'''For that to be achieved if two or more individuals are compared they must not have been in a feud or in a conflict with each other'''.
'''If they weren't in a feud and they are in the future, the notes of the most recent version must be removed/modified regarding any comparisons of currently feuding individuals.'''

This must be done to ensure the &quot;Do no harm&quot; requirement is met for this project.

* Taylor Swift[1]

== How the Linking References System works ==

ie. [1], [2] etc.

This section may be superfluous once a better system has replaced this.

Purpose: teach the students/contributors how to link to a central place where human generated inputs are made and &quot;AI-generated&quot; outputs results are made.

When you see ie. a [1] that means that you can find that [1] input made by a human and output most probably made by a an &quot;AI program&quot; or Large Language Model here if you look hard enough. Otherwise please submit feedback for how the user experience was. Here's the page: [[Draft:The_Neurodiversity-inspired_Idea/AI_Prompt_History_for_Questions#&quot;Reference_Coding&quot;]]

=== References/in-Wikiversity-Wikilinks ===

'''Most importantly''':

All in-Wikiversity references like ie. [1] can be found at [[Draft:The_Neurodiversity-inspired_Idea/AI_Prompt_History_for_Questions#&quot;Reference_Coding&quot;]]

[2] Can be found at [[Draft:The_Neurodiversity-inspired_Idea/AI_Prompt_History_for_Questions#Reference_3]]</text>
      <sha1>8tda3l8qig2w4mv1g09hcisg136jg88</sha1>
    </revision>
    <revision>
      <id>2808119</id>
      <parentid>2808116</parentid>
      <timestamp>2026-05-10T01:56:42Z</timestamp>
      <contributor>
        <username>ThinkingScience</username>
        <id>3061446</id>
      </contributor>
      <comment>/* Responsibility in regards to choosing video material */ Taking responsibility for choosing Tom Hanks</comment>
      <origin>2808119</origin>
      <model>wikitext</model>
      <format>text/x-wiki</format>
      <text bytes="6494" sha1="4tw2zv5nho4l1fm0293p2sp7iy81m8c" xml:space="preserve">{{AI-generated}}

== What {{tl|AI-generated}} means on this page ==

It means that the content on this page may be generated in the future. This is merely to &quot;future-proof&quot; this page as it may be assumed it is inevitable that one day even the content might be auto-generated and this notice existing might help students/contributors to let them know that there is a current &quot;influence&quot; by &quot;AI programs&quot; on this page, if not by content at least by influencing decisions.

If any content is generated contributors are encouraged to edit this section and make the appropriate changes to let students know that there has been a change.

What it means for now is that the contributors to this page are encouraged to interact with an &quot;AI&quot;/LLM in regards to 
* decision-making on what to focus on next that this page may need
* brainstorming with the &quot;AI program&quot; of their choice regarding what to contribute next
* ask &quot;AI program&quot; for advice on how to contribute video notes in a [[Wikiversity:Research ethics]]-way and a &quot;Do no harm&quot;/&quot;Primum non nocere&quot; way.

== Original Intent ==

The intent for this page is for it to be used to develop a 'method' for working with &quot;materials&quot; like video interviews of famous people or video interviews/content of volunteers who sign up for [[Draft:The Neurodiversity-inspired Idea]].

== Contributor/Student Questions ==

If a contributor doesn't feel to edit this page directly but the contributor/student wants to ask a question to encourage development or they have any other question, this section is for that. '''Remember: No question is stupid!'''

== Beginning work - Video notes adhering to &quot;Do no harm&quot;/&quot;Primum non nocere&quot; ==

This is the section for main content for this page which is video notes. The way one makes video notes on this page may set the example for the method that will be developed in the future.

Goal is to treat famous people like any other people: like human beings. How one expresses oneself is very important and the original creator of this page may not be the best in that area, thus '''feel free to be bold and edit this page'''.

The start is usually the hardest and based on the idea name one can focus on any famous person related to the words 
* draft
* neurodiversity
* inspiration
* idea

This is how this start is made. This idea may be lacking but one starts making mistakes, then later we learn how to do it better and then we fix those mistakes.

== Choosing video material ==

Video notes can wait. Let's focus first on choosing video material.

Why can video notes wait? The first task is choosing the video material and explaining why the specific material was chosen. It may not always be easy to take a decision and ie. ChatGPT or &quot;AI Mode&quot; can sometimes be used to make it easier to just choose something so one can focus on work and less on decisions. For some students/contributors that may be helpful.

The video notes though may be done step by step, one chooses a video material, explains the reasoning behind it and then focuses on working on the video notes in a &quot;Do no harm&quot; manner.

* How to associate the first person we focus on regarding the word ''draft''? Using &quot;AI Mode&quot; by Google on April 22, 2026, as a way to make &quot;decisions easier&quot; this input helped this project moving forward(feedback/comments appreciated) with the first &quot;choice&quot;: 
** Taylor Swift[1]
* Tom Hanks[2]

Taylor Swift is associated with the word ''draft'' in that she has been open in videos about her music creation process.

That makes this project focus on Taylor Swift as 1st person being added regarding 'video notes'.

=== Responsibility in regards to choosing video material ===

In this section if you feel free like listing yourself feel free to. Adhering to &quot;Do no harm&quot; can be very challenging. Though we have to try our best to achieve this.

It may be good or even necessary to explain why a choice was made so that anyone joining this project can be sure that there was a 100% human judgement made when choosing a subject. 

As this project deals with real human beings similar to how psychiatry deals with real human beings with ie. the Autism Spectrum, the Bipolar Spectrum and similar were chosen and worked on, it dealt with real people. Psychiatry though dealt/deal mainly with children and this project deals mainly with adults. Preferably adults whose brains have fully matured and who have lived a few years with a fully matured brain which may mean 29 years of age which may be a good minimum age for this project.

This is a section where a user who is a contributor would like to take responsibility for a choice:
* [[User:ThinkingScience]]. I hereby take responsibility for the following choices: Taylor Swift. Read on my user page more at [[User:ThinkingScience#T]] why I made this choice.
** [[User:ThinkingScience#Tom_Hanks]] 2nd person I chose.
* Example user choice 2
* Example user choice 3
* Example user choice 4
* Example user choice 5

=== People chosen ===

Do no harm will be challenging but is a requirement. Video notes must be respectful and not harm the individual. 

'''For that to be achieved if two or more individuals are compared they must not have been in a feud or in a conflict with each other'''.
'''If they weren't in a feud and they are in the future, the notes of the most recent version must be removed/modified regarding any comparisons of currently feuding individuals.'''

This must be done to ensure the &quot;Do no harm&quot; requirement is met for this project.

* Taylor Swift[1]

== How the Linking References System works ==

ie. [1], [2] etc.

This section may be superfluous once a better system has replaced this.

Purpose: teach the students/contributors how to link to a central place where human generated inputs are made and &quot;AI-generated&quot; outputs results are made.

When you see ie. a [1] that means that you can find that [1] input made by a human and output most probably made by a an &quot;AI program&quot; or Large Language Model here if you look hard enough. Otherwise please submit feedback for how the user experience was. Here's the page: [[Draft:The_Neurodiversity-inspired_Idea/AI_Prompt_History_for_Questions#&quot;Reference_Coding&quot;]]

=== References/in-Wikiversity-Wikilinks ===

'''Most importantly''':

All in-Wikiversity references like ie. [1] can be found at [[Draft:The_Neurodiversity-inspired_Idea/AI_Prompt_History_for_Questions#&quot;Reference_Coding&quot;]]

[2] Can be found at [[Draft:The_Neurodiversity-inspired_Idea/AI_Prompt_History_for_Questions#Reference_3]]</text>
      <sha1>4tw2zv5nho4l1fm0293p2sp7iy81m8c</sha1>
    </revision>
  </page>
  <page>
    <title>Online platforms' effects on public health, safety and democracy</title>
    <ns>0</ns>
    <id>329333</id>
    <revision>
      <id>2808100</id>
      <parentid>2807589</parentid>
      <timestamp>2026-05-09T20:35:01Z</timestamp>
      <contributor>
        <username>DavidMCEddy</username>
        <id>218607</id>
      </contributor>
      <comment>add highlights</comment>
      <origin>2808100</origin>
      <model>wikitext</model>
      <format>text/x-wiki</format>
      <text bytes="33172" sha1="lbvttzi387rmasuuzxmfah8m58zkadh" xml:space="preserve">:''This discusses a 2026-05-06 interview with [[w:Yael Eisenstat|Yael Eisenstat]] about the impact of online platforms on public health, safety and democracy. A video and 29:00 mm:ss podcast excerpted from the interview will be added when available. The podcast will be released 2026-05-16 to the fortnightly &quot;Media &amp; Democracy&quot; show&lt;ref name=M&amp;D&gt;&lt;!--Media &amp; Democracy--&gt;{{cite Q|Q127839818}}&lt;/ref&gt; syndicated for the [[w:Pacifica Foundation|Pacifica Radio]]&lt;ref&gt;&lt;!--Pacifica Radio Network--&gt;{{cite Q|Q2045587}}&lt;/ref&gt; Network of [[w:List of Pacifica Radio stations and affiliates|over 200 community radio stations]].''&lt;ref&gt;&lt;!--list of Pacifica Radio stations and affiliates--&gt;{{cite Q|Q6593294}}&lt;/ref&gt;

:''It is posted here to invite others to contribute other perspectives, subject to the Wikimedia rules of [[w:Wikipedia:Neutral point of view|writing from a neutral point of view]] while [[w:Wikipedia:Citing sources|citing credible sources]]&lt;ref name=NPOV&gt;The rules of writing from a neutral point of view citing credible sources may not be enforced on other parts of Wikiversity. However, they can facilitate dialog between people with dramatically different beliefs&lt;/ref&gt; and treating others with respect.''&lt;ref name=AGF&gt;[[Wikiversity:Assume good faith|Wikiversity asks contributors to assume good faith]], similar to Wikipedia. The rule in [[w:Wikinews|Wikinews]] is different: Contributors there are asked to [[Wikinews:Never assume|&quot;Don't assume things; be skeptical about everything.&quot;]] That's wise. However, we should still treat others with respect while being skeptical.&lt;/ref&gt;
&lt;!--[[File:2026-05-06 interview with Yaël Eisenstat.WebM|thumb|2026-05-06 interview with Yaël Eisenstat about how some online platforms have been degrading public health, safety and democracy.]]--&gt; 
&lt;!--[[File:2026-05-06 interview with Yaël Eisenstat.ogg|thumb|29:00 mm:ss excerpts from a 2026-05-06 interview with Yaël Eisenstat about how some online platforms have been degrading public health, safety and democracy.]]--&gt;

[[w:Yaël Eisenstat|Yaël Eisenstat]] discusses the impact of online platforms on public health, safety and democracy. She is currently&lt;ref&gt;&lt;!--Yael Eisenstat--&gt;{{cite Q|Q82046593}}&lt;/ref&gt; the Director of Policy and Impact at Cybersecurity for Democracy (C4D),&lt;ref&gt;&lt;!--Cybersecurity for Democracy--&gt;{{cite Q|Q139568543}}&lt;/ref&gt; working on policy solutions for how to hold [[w:Social media|social media]] and other online platforms accountable for their effects on public safety and democracy. Previously, she was Vice President at the [[w:Anti-Defamation League|Anti-Defamation League]] (ADL) Center for Technology &amp; Society (CTS). She was a [[w:Facebook|Facebook]] election integrity head in 2018 and later became a whistleblower, speaking publicly about the dangers to democracy stemming from the company's decisions and products. She has held other other positions protecting democracy including as an intelligence officer, diplomat, and White House advisor.  C4D contributed to the recent March 24, 2026, jury verdict in a civil case against Internet companies in [[w:New Mexico|New Mexico]].&lt;ref name=NM&gt;McQue (2026), &lt;!--C4D and the Courts: Meta Guilty Verdicts--&gt;{{cite Q|Q139572464}}&lt;/ref&gt;  

Eisenstat is interviewed by Spencer Graves.&lt;ref name=Graves&gt;&lt;!--Spencer Graves--&gt;{{cite Q|Q56452480}}&lt;/ref&gt; 

== Eisenstat's work == 

Eisenstat's work includes a [[w:TED (conference)|TED Talk]] and an [[w:South by Southwest|SXSW panel]] in 2020 and a 2024 research report on tech platforms and political violence. 

=== 2020 TED talk === 

In Eisenstat's (2020) TED talk, she said that around 2015 she began to notice that she was losing the ability to engage with others who were thought differently. Conversations with others in the US were becoming more difficult than conversations she had had as a CIA officer and diplomat drinking tea and talking with outspoken anti-Western clerics and suspected terrorists in Africa. Many of those engagements began with mutual suspicion but none degenerated into shouting or insults. In some cases she built collaboration on areas of mutual interest. Her most powerful tools were to listen, learn and build empathy. Most of her contacts wanted to feel heard, validated and respected. But social media companies like [[w:Facebook|Facebook]] incentivize inflammatory content contributing to a culture of political polarization and mistrust. This generates revenue for Facebook and similar companies that make money from clicks, &quot;because the shortest path to a click is anger or hate&quot;, in the words of [[Facebook whistleblower Frances Haugen says|Facebook whistleblower Frances Haugen]], interviewed 2024-08-19 for this Media &amp; Democracy series. When Facebook asked Eisenstat in 2018 to lead their work to support global elections integrity for political ads, she agreed. She left six months later, speaking openly about Facebook's inability to meet its responsibility to secure elections, subsequently documented, e.g., in the thousands of internal Facebook documents that [[w:Frances Haugen|Haugen]] released to the [[w:Securities and Exchange Commission|Securities and Exchange Commission]] and ''[[w:The Wall Street Journal|The Wall Street Journal]]'' in 2021.

=== 2020 SXSW panel === 

Eisenstat was part of a &quot;panel about the Future of Tech Responsibility&quot; for the 2020 [[w:South by Southwest|South by Southwest]] festival. The festival was cancelled due to COVID-19, but the panel was held virtually. This panel included a discussion of [[w:Section 230|Section 230]] of the [[w:Communications Act of 1934|Communications Act of 1934]], as amended by the [[w:Communications Decency Act|Communications Decency Act]] of 1996.&lt;ref&gt;Reid (2020).&lt;/ref&gt; It was &quot;written before platforms such as [[w:Facebook|Facebook]], [[w:YouTube|YouTube]] and [[w:X (social network)|Twitter]] existed&quot; -- written while [[w:Google|Google]] was a research project by [[w:Stanford University|Stanford]] [[w:Doctor of Philosophy|PhD]] students [[w:Larry Page|Larry Page]] and [[w:Sergey Brin|Sergey Brin]]. Section 230 includes, &quot;No provider or user of an interactive computer service shall be treated as the publisher or speaker of any information provided by another information content provider.&quot;&lt;ref&gt;&lt;!--47 U.S. Code § 230 - Protection for private blocking and screening of offensive material--&gt;{{cite Q|Q139570261}}&lt;/ref&gt; Eisenstat says that it's time to revisit Section 230, to demand accountability where Internet companies promote or suppress information based on the content while protecting web freedom otherwise. This is similar to the [[Dean Baker on Internet companies threatening democracy internationally and how to fix that|recommendations of]] [[w:Dean Baker|Dean Baker]] that when Internet companies make money by promoting information differentially based on content, they should be liable as are legacy media under the US Supreme Court decision in ''[[w:New York Times Co. v. Sullivan|NYT v. Sullivan]]'' (1964). In other cases, they should be treated as [[w:Common carrier|common carrier]]s like telephone companies. 

=== 2024: Tech platforms and political violence === 

More recently, Eisenstat et al. (2024a, b) are insisting that, &quot;Tech Platforms Must Do More to Avoid Contributing to Potential Political Violence&quot;. ''The New York Times'' had reported that, &quot;a steady undercurrent of violence and physical risk has become a new normal,&quot; particularly targeting public officials and democratic institutions. A survey from the Brennan Center found that 38% of election officials have experienced violent threats. They attributed these threats primarily to tech platforms and gave seven recommendations in four themes &quot;congruent with any number of papers that academics and civil society leaders have published over the years.&quot; They said that platforms 
* must develop robust standards for threat assessment and engage in scenario planning, crisis training, and engagement with external stakeholders, with as much transparency as possible.
* should enforce clear and actionable content moderation policies that address election integrity.
* should enforce their rules uniformly, not exempting politicians and other political influencers. 
* must clearly explain important content moderation decisions, ensuring transparency especially when it comes to high profile accounts.

They hope that increasing demands for accountability will prompt platforms to act more responsibly and prioritize the risk of political violence both in the United States and abroad.

== Highlights ==

:''These excerpts are rushed, lightly edited for readability, and may not be in final form. The ultimate authority on what was said is the accompanying video.''

===Most important issues ===

When asked about the most important things she wanted to communicate to this audience, Eisenstat replied, {{quote|

There's been a debate for a number of years now on whether or not or how social media companies and online platforms are affecting our democracy, whether or not they're contributing to the rise in extremism, to threats to our elections, to democratic backsliding. These have been really important questions we've been interrogating for a number of years now. I think we've really arrived at a tipping point now, especially with some of the cases that we have seen happening in this space recently, that really show that some of the things that many of us have been saying for years are really starting to be proven, both by the actions and statements of some of the leaders of these companies themselves, or some of the documents that are showing up in court cases now. 

But I like to start by debunking some of the myths that surround these conversations. No, I am ''not'' saying that social media is the end all, be all cause of all of our grievances, and that democracy would be a perfect thriving thing if not for social media. I have never said that. That is not actually the point of the conversation. 

The question is: What role have these companies been playing, whether it's undermining elections, perhaps bringing more extremist fringe views to the mainstream and contributing to radicalization of certain people and populations and also as tools for some authoritarian regimes and leaders to truly influence not just the space in which we make sense of our information and in which we engage, both in political debate and democracy and all of it, but fundamentally, what effect are they also having on our safety, our public health, all of these issues? 

And so I think, you know, we're at a real tipping point where what was long viewed as some activists screaming from a mountaintop, some academics proving things through their scientific rigor, some journalists exposing things. I think we're actually at the point now where enough of the public has understood that these issues really matter, and so let's figure out how to course correct and hopefully fix some of them.}}

===Recommendations===

Graves then asked for her recommended course corrections. She replied, {{quote|

We have allowed a very small handful of companies and tech leaders to have an unimaginable amount of control over how information flows, how political campaigning is communicated, how we are actually making sense of the information that underpins a healthy democracy. We have allowed that to be controlled by such a small handful of people. The irony is the original promise of the Internet was to create a much more open system, where the traditional small set of gatekeepers would be disrupted. ...

I love the idea of democratizing both access to information and access to be the voices of issues. All of these things, all of these aspirations, were wonderful ideas. 

But let's be very clear, that is not how it is shaped up. Once a very small handful of people figured out how to both dominate this industry, scale their ideas recklessly, ensure that they could do so with all the legal protections, more than any other industry has ever been granted in place and with no accountability for the outcomes of their actions. 

There's no one silver bullet. ... The public needs to understand how these technologies are affecting them. Because even let's say you wanted legal and legislative changes, which I do, ... you need a constituency that believes that that change has to happen to pressure their lawmakers to actually undertake that process of fixing some of these issues. 

There's public education of really helping people understand, and I think that we've made some really great strides in that. If you just look at these recent court cases, more and more of the public -- they don't need to understand how an algorithm works. ... They just need to understand there is something that is not working here. I've seen enough to know I don't like how it's addicting my child or I don't like how it's making conversations so extreme that nobody feels safe to disagree with anyone anymore. I don't like how it's allowing foreign state actors to intervene in our elections in a way that was never so easy and, frankly, cheap in the past. 

They only need to understand that they don't like that and then say and something has to change. They don't have to be the ones to figure out exactly what that change is. And then it's on lawmakers. It's on courts, but also public pressure to the companies. ...}} 

=== Migrating from for-profit to non-profit social media and Internet companies? ===

Graves then asked if she had suggestions about how to migrate from for-profit to non-profit social media and Internet companies? She replied, {{quote|

It is really challenging right now. I want to be clear, I still use these companies. I would be a hypocrite if my takeaway was to tell everybody to get off of [[w:Instagram|Instagram]], [[w:TikTok|TikTok]], [[w:Facebook|Facebook]], whatever platform people are using. ... 

I don't want to imply that I think everybody needs to get off all of these platforms. At the end of the day, it's very hard to put the toothpaste back in the tube. These companies are part of every ounce of our being. I'll give you an example.

A man I know around 57 years old never joined Instagram. Never used it. And then his child went off to college, and the parents group around all of the freshmen that were all in a group together created a group on Instagram to communicate with each other about their kids' experience and whatnot. And that person at 57 years old had to join Instagram if he wanted to be part of the parents group for his kid that just went off to school. 

I hate that. I wish they would have figured out a different way to create a parents group, but at the end of the day, telling people &quot;You just need to get off these platforms&quot; is a bit of an unfair fight, when these platforms are so ubiquitous and such a part of our everyday life. 

That said, people can understand how to use it in a more healthy way. ... I don't see a nonprofit social media space growing to the scale of something like [[w:Meta Platforms|Meta]] to have the [[w:Network effect|network effects]] of basically engaging almost everybody on the planet. ...  

If you look at [[w:Bluesky|Bluesky]] as the answer to '''[[w:X (social network)|X]]''', that's not really the answer to what you're talking about. That's still a very niche community. ... 

I would just like to get to the point where there's enough understanding that the status quo is not okay, and that we get to figure out how to differentiate product safety from this sort of false narrative that every single thing about a social media company is just about [[w:Freedom of speech|free speech]], and therefore it's untouchable. Hopefully, some of these recent cases have started to prove that there are real business decisions, deceptive practices, design features that are not necessarily about content, but that cause real harm in the world. 

These are the things we need to start grappling with, as opposed to telling everybody how to just get off the platforms. 

I would love to give you a recipe for how to rely more on nonprofit social media. I hope that happens someday, because at the end of the day, as long as these companies entire existence is to make money, and the only way they can truly believe they're going to make money is through this [[w:Surveillance capitalism|surveillance advertising business model]]. These issues are going to be very hard to solve, but I don't think you're going to find the nonprofit platforms catching up yet.}} 

===Frances Haugen ===

Graves noted that he had interviewed [[Facebook whistleblower Frances Haugen says|Facebook whistleblower Francis Haugen in 2024]], who said, {{quote|

The shortest path to a click is anger or hate.}}

Graves asked for Eisenstat's thoughts on that. She replied that Haugen was referring to Meta's business model: {{quote|

When a social media company's business model is predicated on being able to sell you personalized, targeted ads, they want to keep you on the platform as long as humanly possible, so they can [[Wiktionary:hoover|hoover]] up as much of your data as possible so they can sell this idea to an advertiser. ... For example, they know exactly which sneaker you're going to click on, as opposed to just sending that ad to like everybody on the platform. That doesn't sound so harmful. Cool: Maybe I'll get an ad for something that's interesting to me. 

The point about the anger and the emotion, which is something actually I really dug into in my TED Talk in 2020, ... that algorithm is coded with a goal in mind. Let's be very clear, it is a human being who is making a decision when designing that algorithm. It is not some mysterious thing that created itself. ... 

This is not something unique to social media. I spent the first half of my career in the field, on the ground, before social media existed. I was one of our government's top counter extremism officials. I was working with communities susceptible to extremist messaging in the early 2000s to help figure out how to inoculate them from being exploited by extremists who were going to prey on those vulnerabilities to then radicalize them in the future. 

And what we're seeing online is the same exact thing but at a much huger scale. The algorithms know what is going to keep you engaged. And we all know that's going to be emotional content. We all know that's usually going to be something that gets your blood racing. So it's usually going to be something gets you really upset, really angry, really outraged. And that's what's going to keep you going and engaging and sharing and commenting. They're not doing that because they care about that content. They're doing that because the more you share, click, engage, the more they're able to sell you and your data and your behavioral profile to an advertiser. ...  

That is fundamentally the problem with this business model. It's why all the [[w:Externality|externalities]] are what's really concerning to me. 

I don't know that Mark Zuckerberg purposely said ever. -- I doubt he did -- &quot;I want to make sure that more [[w:QAnon|QAnon]] content is recommended to people.&quot; Or, &quot;I want to make sure that more and more people are watching these misogynistic content creators talking about how to do terrible things to women.&quot; ... 

There is enough evidence that that is exactly what his algorithms have been incentivizing, and because it has been incentivizing that content, there is a real world consequence of taking what was once more fringe and making it more and more mainstream. And what the most important thing to understand is what happens online has real consequences offline.}} 

=== Externalities ===

Graves noted that Eisenstat mentioned externalities and asked if she had suggestions about internalizing those externalities? She replied, {{quote|

&quot;Some of them fall into areas that unfortunately are harder to solve because they're not actually illegal, but they are causing real harm. There are different categories. I look a lot at how these platforms are helping to fuel things like political violence, extremism, radicalization -- things that are, I think many would agree, quite harmful to our democracy and our society. Again, repeating what I said earlier, I'm not saying social media is the end all, be all singular reason that these things are happening. 

But as others have said (I am not alone in this), they are certainly the gasoline being poured on the fire. ... 

Some of the documents that Francis exposed are really important in proving some of these points. ... There was an article written called &quot;Carol's Journey to QAnon&quot;.&lt;ref&gt;Bidar et al. (2021).&lt;/ref&gt; ... It was based on Facebook's own internal research at the time. It showed that Facebook internal researchers had set up this account, named her Carol, made her a mom from, I think, like the Midwest somewhere, had her start to follow a few things online, including, I think, a few politicians. 

But it didn't start with, &quot;I am following QAnon&quot; and all these crazy like right wing conspiracies. And it showed that within a very short period of time, the recommendation engines were recommending her QAnon content. 

We've replicated studies like that outside of Facebook. We did a study called something like the amplification of [[w:antisemitism|antisemitism]] and hate.&lt;ref&gt;Center for Technology &amp; Society (2023).&lt;/ref&gt; It also showed that the recommendation engines themselves were recommending children, teenagers who weren't even searching for conspiracy theories or antisemitic or other kinds of hate filled content, were recommending these things to them. 

But the reason I bring up the documents that Francis exposed is that proves that the company knew it. ... They knew these things were happening. That's a very critical point ... going back to the idea of a business model that does end up incentivizing the most extreme and salacious content. ... I think that &quot;Carol's Journey to AQnon&quot; is the perfect example. 

We started looking also at like the profiles of some of the people who commit mass violence in the United States. ... It has been skewing more and more towards young men or committing acts of political violence. I'm not going to sit here and say every single one that's ever happened. But if you look at the profile online of a lot of these people ... are spending a lot of time online in these conspiracy theory sort of rabbit holes ... . 

After the [[w:January 6 United States Capitol attack|January 6, 2021, insurrection on the Capitol]], you started to look at the online activity of certain individuals that were involved and implicated. You can see it. You can see that they were going more and more into very extreme content, reposting some very harmful conspiracy theories. ... Whether it's '''[[w:X (social network)|X]]''', whether it's [[w:TikTok|TikTok]], whether it's [[w:Instagram|Instagram]], I get that they are not personally responsible for the [[w:White supremacy|White supremacist]] or [[w:Neo-Nazism|Neo-Nazi]] out there who wants to spread hate. 

But I cannot accept that they bear no responsibility for how their own engines that they have designed not only amplify that, but actually connect people to it. Actually recommend it to children. ... 

Actually recommend a 57 year old predator online. &quot;Oh, these are your likes. Here's a 13 year old girl you might want to connect with.&quot; 

And, yes, that has been proven to happen. Both the investigation that the New Mexico Attorney General did&lt;ref&gt;Lee (2026).&lt;/ref&gt; and some other independent civil society and academics have done research in this space showing that the recommendation engines connect predators with children. 

These are the things that, to me, are inexcusable, that we allow companies to do with absolutely no repercussions.}}

Graves interrupted, &quot;No: There are big repercussions. They make money doing it.&quot; Eisenstat agreed, {{quote| 

Correct, and those are the things that we need to change. ...

A lot of the work that I'm involved in right now, or have been for years, is really trying to disentangle this idea of what about what online really is speech, and I believe in some of the core spirit of this original law from 1996 called [[w:Section 230|Section 230]], which, at its core, preemptively immunizes these platforms for the speech of their users ... while also immunizing them so that they can engage in content moderation. ...

That second part people forget about a lot. ... 

What we've been trying to do for years ... are disentangling what is truly product design that's not actually about somebody else's speech, but is about trying to elicit a particular behavior from what is third party speech so that everything doesn't get thrown out before even getting to see the light of day in court. 

And so that is why these two cases, Los Angeles&lt;ref&gt;Allyn (2026).&lt;/ref&gt; and New Mexico,&lt;ref name=NM/&gt; these two big cases against Meta and Los Angeles was also against Google.

These were the first two cases that actually went to a jury, because for so many years, they've been preemptively immunized by Section 230 and what was different in these cases, and you can read some of our work on this. 

We filed an amicus brief for the big MDL, the multi district litigation.&lt;ref&gt;Eisenstat and Murray (2025).&lt;/ref&gt; We've written a lot about these cases. Some of our research underpinned some of it ... showing that these are products ... using computer science and technological research to prove that some of the products are designed 100% to have nothing to do with content itself, but to elicit a behavior. 

You can just read their patents, which is what we did. If you read our amicus brief, we did a lot of patent analysis. If you read their patents behind things like infinite scroll, or behind things like their intermittent reward, variable rewards, they patent this technology. They're very clear of what goal they are trying to achieve with it. Regardless of the content, those design features, those technologies, if they are, in the end, contributing to an illegal activity or to harm, that's what we should be addressing. 

I might hate some of the racist, homophobic, antisemitic speech that's happening online. That's not the core of what I'm trying to go after. ... Even if I hate it, it's free speech, it's [[w:First Amendment to the United States Constitution|First Amendment]] protected. It's part of what makes us an open society, 

But how a company itself is designing its tools to keep us on the platform, to elicit a certain behavior, to allow people to even monetize the worst of the worst. And then what harm is that creating? That's the important question.}}

=== Can Zuckerberg be prosecuted for perjury? ===

Graves noted that Zuckerberg testified in one of these trials and asked if he could be prosecuted for [[w:Perjury|perjury]]? Eisenstat replied, {{quote|

That's an interesting question. ... I'm not a lawyer, so I don't know the exact answer to that. I will say that for years, we have heard, especially senior executives from Meta lie about what they know about their own products. We've heard it in congressional testimonies. ... I wasn't at the trial in Los Angeles. I don't know whether he lied or not on the stand ... .  

Part of why it's so important for a case like this to go to trial is because ... then you get to go into [[w:Discovery (law)|discovery]]. And what happens during discovery? You get a bunch of documents from internal communications. And the internal communications are showing exactly what they knew and what they decided to do with what they knew. 

And my understanding from these cases, and part of the reason the juries returned the verdicts they did, was it was proven very clearly where they keep lying about what they knew, where they keep lying about the fact that they knew their products are harming children or other issues involved there, and whether or not they decided to do anything about it. 

Whether he can be held for perjury, I don't know. ... I don't know if he actually lied on the stand in Los Angeles. I have heard multiple Facebook senior executives say untrue things, both in the media and in congressional hearings, but I'm not sure about in the case itself.}}

=== In sum ===

Graves then noted that we are about out of time and asked for final words for the audience. Eisenstat replied, {{quote|

For parents right now, it can feel very overwhelming, because you keep getting told that social media is the most terrible thing in the world, and predators are going to stalk your children, and it's going to create terrorists around every corner. I'm not saying that's the case. 

I do think it can be quite dangerous, and especially for parents. They really need to get to understand the platform. Have an open conversation with their children about how they're using it. Explain to them the healthy ways to use it. Engage as a parent with your child's experience online. 

That said a lot of adults aren't using it in a healthy way either. ... Not everything that happens on social media is terrible. It's not. I use it still.

Government's job, whether it's regulators, whether it's courts, whether it's legislators, their job is to protect the vulnerable from illegal activity, from exploitation, while hopefully also allowing innovation to thrive. ...

The amount of money and power that is at stake here is unprecedented in US history. A lot of people don't understand why it has taken so long. I've been screaming about this since I left the company in 2018 and I decided to go public as a whistleblower and speak about what I saw happening there. People were speaking out before I did, and people continue to take really serious risks to try to expose what is happening in these companies. 

But the amount of money and power at stake is why it is so hard to find the solutions. There are so many constituents yelling at legislators, &quot;If you do this, you're going to break the whole internet. If you do that, like the world will cease to exist.&quot;  

But I would just ask people to keep supporting those who are truly doing the work. It is a long battle, but I think we are starting to see real success. The ultimate goal is not to shut down every social media company. The ultimate goal is to figure out what a safer online experience looks like and what accountability looks like when something unsafe happens.}}

== The need for media reform to improve democracy == 

This article is part of [[:category:Media reform to improve democracy]]. A summary of episodes to 2025-11-15 is available in [[Media &amp; Democracy lessons for the future]]. 

==Discussion ==

:''[Interested readers are invite to comment here, subject to the Wikimedia rules of [[w:Wikipedia:Neutral point of view|writing from a neutral point of view]] [[w:Wikipedia:Citing sources|citing credible sources]]&lt;ref name=NPOV/&gt; and treating others with respect.&lt;ref name=AGF/&gt;]''

== Notes ==
{{reflist}}

== Bibliography ==

* &lt;!--Bobby Allyn (2026-03-25) &quot;Jury finds Meta and Google negligent in social media harms trial--&gt;{{cite Q|Q139572103}}
* &lt;!--Musadiq Bidar, Laurie Segall, Dan Patterson, Michael Kaplan, Jessica Kegu (2021-10-25) &quot;Facebook internal documents show execs knew platform spread misinformation and failed to act at times&quot;--&gt;{{cite Q|Q139719521}}
* &lt;!--Center for Technology &amp; Society (2023-08-16) &quot;From Bad To Worse: Amplification and Auto-Generation of Hate--&gt;{{cite Q|Q139719742|author=Center for Technology &amp; Society }}
* &lt;!--Yaël Eisenstat (2020-08) &quot;Dear Facebook, this is how you're breaking democracy&quot;--&gt;{{cite Q|Q138844363}}
* &lt;!--Yaël Eisenstat (2021) &quot;Section 230 Revisited: Web Freedom vs Accountability--&gt;{{cite Q|Q139568755|date=2021}}
* &lt;!-- Yaël Eisenstat, Justin Hendrix, and Daniel Kreiss (2024-05-22, 2024a) &quot;
Preventing Tech-Fueled Political Violence: What online platforms can do to ensure that they do not contribute to election-related violence&quot;, The Bulletin of Technology &amp; Public Life--&gt;{{cite Q|Q139571027|date=2024a}} 
* &lt;!-- Yaël Eisenstat, Justin Hendrix, and Daniel Kreiss (2024-05-22, 2024b) &quot;
Tech Platforms Must Do More to Avoid Contributing to Potential Political Violence
&quot;, Tech Policy Press and Just Security--&gt;{{cite Q|Q139571163|date=2024b}}
* &lt;!-- Yael Eisenstat and Christopher Murray (2025-07-08)  C4D partners with legal and social media experts on amicus brief in MDL case against Meta--&gt;{{cite Q|Q139720052}}
* &lt;!--Morgan Lee (2026-01-31)  Undercover investigation of Meta heads to trial in New Mexico in first stand-alone case by state--&gt;{{cite Q|Q139719943}}
* &lt;!--Katie McQue (2026-04-24) &quot; Meta ordered to pay $375m after being found liable in child exploitation case--&gt;{{cite Q|Q139572337}}
* &lt;!--Blake E. Reid (2020-09-04) &quot;Section 230 of… what?--&gt;{{cite Q|Q139570229}} 

[[Category:Media]]
[[Category:News]]
[[Category:Democracy]]
[[Category:Suicide]]
[[Category:Politics]]
[[Category:Safety]]
[[Category:Public health]]
[[Category:Google]]
[[Category:Internet]]
[[Category:Social media]]
[[Category:Media reform to improve democracy]]
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    <title>User:Atcovi/OGM &amp; Suicide/The Paper</title>
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      <text bytes="12669" sha1="2ziz339i3enr8bltr90i0scgb6xz57w" xml:space="preserve">''Better translated as the &quot;thinking space&quot; vs. an actual paper.''

''What we doing?'' Integrating OGM → suicidal ideation within a structured model (IMV + mechanisms).

==Introduction==
'''[[w:Overgeneral_autobiographical_memory|Overgeneral autobiographical memory]]''' (OGM) describes a reduced ability to recall specific events in one's autobiographical memory. For example, one may remember attending a birthday party at some point in their life, but they could not uniquely recall a specific instance of attending a birthday party. OGM has been empirically associated with depression, with depressed individuals reporting higher levels of OGM than non-depressed individuals&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite journal|last=Sumner|first=Jennifer A.|last2=Griffith|first2=James W.|last3=Mineka|first3=Susan|date=2010-07|title=Overgeneral autobiographical memory as a predictor of the course of depression: a meta-analysis|url=https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC2878838/|journal=Behaviour Research and Therapy|volume=48|issue=7|pages=614–625|doi=10.1016/j.brat.2010.03.013|issn=1873-622X|pmc=2878838|pmid=20399418}}&lt;/ref&gt;. Given the association of depression and suicidal ideation&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite journal|last=Chachamovich|first=Eduardo|last2=Stefanello|first2=Sabrina|last3=Botega|first3=Neury|last4=Turecki|first4=Gustavo|date=2009-05|title=[Which are the recent clinical findings regarding the association between depression and suicide?]|url=https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19565147|journal=Revista Brasileira De Psiquiatria (Sao Paulo, Brazil: 1999)|volume=31 Suppl 1|pages=S18–25|doi=10.1590/s1516-44462009000500004|issn=1516-4446|pmid=19565147}}&lt;/ref&gt;, utilizing suicide models, such as the '''Integrated Motivational-Volitional (IMV) model''', provides a theoretical cognitive framework to increase understanding of where OGM may fit in the escalation to suicidal ideation and/or suicide.

The IMV model portrays suicidal behavior as an escalating, behavioral process divided into three phases: pre-motivational phase, motivational phase, and volitional phase. The motivational phase is characterized by suicidal ideation formation, where feelings of entrapment (described as a &quot;proximal [predictor] of suicidal ideation&quot;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite journal|last=O'Connor|first=Rory C.|last2=Kirtley|first2=Olivia J.|date=2018-09-05|title=The integrated motivational-volitional model of suicidal behaviour|url=https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6053985/|journal=Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society of London. Series B, Biological Sciences|volume=373|issue=1754|pages=20170268|doi=10.1098/rstb.2017.0268|issn=1471-2970|pmc=6053985|pmid=30012735}}&lt;/ref&gt;), poor problem-solving abilities, brooding, and interpersonal vulnerabilities (thwarted belongingness and perceived burdensomeness) may transition the individual to the volitional phase. When looking at the IMV model and assessing where OGM could play a part in the transition to suicidal ideation, OGM may impair problem-solving capabilities and the ability to learn from the past through reduced retrieval of specific past experiences, leading to hopelessness&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite journal|last=Jiang|first=Wen|last2=Hu|first2=Guangtao|last3=Zhang|first3=Jingxuan|last4=Chen|first4=Ken|last5=Fan|first5=Dongni|last6=Feng|first6=Zhengzhi|date=2020-10-12|title=Distinct effects of over-general autobiographical memory on suicidal ideation among depressed and healthy people|url=https://doi.org/10.1186/s12888-020-02877-6|journal=BMC Psychiatry|language=en|volume=20|issue=1|pages=501|doi=10.1186/s12888-020-02877-6|issn=1471-244X|pmc=7549224|pmid=33046032}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite book|url=https://doi.org/10.1017/9781316563205|title=The Neuroscience of Suicidal Behavior|last=van Heeringen|first=Kees|date=2018-08-23|publisher=Cambridge University Press|isbn=978-1-316-56320-5}}&lt;/ref&gt;.

The current literature aims to shed light on a neglected niche of suicide research: autobiographical memory. Despite the overwhelming research suggesting correlations between OGM and depression and suicidal ideation, research has not thoroughly explored OGM's exact role in a cognitive, theoretical framework of suicidal ideation (specifically within the IMV model). By conducting a narrative review and integrating research on OGM's role in suicidal ideation, this paper furthers understanding on OGM's role in suicidal ideation. 

==OGM as Vulnerability==
Evidence suggests that OGM is a cognitive vulnerability associated with depression and suicidal ideation, though its predictive relevance may vary depending on the population. 

A meta analysis performed by Sumner et. al (2010) found that OGM accounted for about 1-2% of the variance in depressive symptoms at follow-up&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite journal|last=Sumner|first=Jennifer A.|last2=Griffith|first2=James W.|last3=Mineka|first3=Susan|date=2010-07|title=Overgeneral autobiographical memory as a predictor of the course of depression: a meta-analysis|url=https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC2878838/|journal=Behaviour Research and Therapy|volume=48|issue=7|pages=614–625|doi=10.1016/j.brat.2010.03.013|issn=1873-622X|pmc=2878838|pmid=20399418}}&lt;/ref&gt;. A 2020 study found that OGM was associated with depressed patients' current suicidal ideation state and worse-point suicidal ideation, while OGM affected the healthy patients' worse-point suicidal ideation&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite journal|last=Jiang|first=Wen|last2=Hu|first2=Guangtao|last3=Zhang|first3=Jingxuan|last4=Chen|first4=Ken|last5=Fan|first5=Dongni|last6=Feng|first6=Zhengzhi|date=2020-10-12|title=Distinct effects of over-general autobiographical memory on suicidal ideation among depressed and healthy people|url=https://doi.org/10.1186/s12888-020-02877-6|journal=BMC Psychiatry|language=en|volume=20|issue=1|pages=501|doi=10.1186/s12888-020-02877-6|issn=1471-244X|pmc=7549224|pmid=33046032}}&lt;/ref&gt;. However, Crane et. al (2016) conducted a longitudinal study of n≈5800 adolescents from ages 13 to 16 and found that OGM was not significantly associated with depression and did not moderate the effect of life events, suggesting OGM may not be as generalizable to community samples vs. high-risk populations&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite journal|last=Crane|first=Catherine|last2=Heron|first2=Jon|last3=Gunnell|first3=David|last4=Lewis|first4=Glyn|last5=Evans|first5=Jonathan|last6=Williams|first6=J. Mark G.|date=2016|title=Adolescent over-general memory, life events and mental health outcomes: Findings from a UK cohort study|url=https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4743605/|journal=Memory (Hove, England)|volume=24|issue=3|pages=348–363|doi=10.1080/09658211.2015.1008014|issn=1464-0686|pmc=4743605|pmid=25716137}}&lt;/ref&gt;. Even though the findings indicated that OGM was not significantly associated with depression, the study highlights that OGM may function as a vulnerability within high-risk populations. This suggests that OGM's predictive relevance may depend on the risk-level of the population.

OGM persists even past depression, as found in Hallford et. al (2022). A meta-analysis indicated that participants with remitted depression continue to experience small to moderate deficiencies in being able to recall &quot;specific, event-level personal memories&quot;. This indicates that OGM isn't merely a symptom of depression, but may function as a risk factor for future depressive episodes&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite journal|last=Hallford|first=David John|last2=Rusanov|first2=Danielle|last3=Yeow|first3=Joseph J. E.|last4=Barry|first4=Tom Joseph|date=2022-09|title=Reduced specificity and increased overgenerality of autobiographical memory persist as cognitive vulnerabilities in remitted major depression: A meta-analysis|url=https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36129959|journal=Clinical Psychology &amp; Psychotherapy|volume=29|issue=5|pages=1515–1529|doi=10.1002/cpp.2786|issn=1099-0879|pmc=9828164|pmid=36129959}}&lt;/ref&gt;.    

Considering the above, the analysis suggests that OGM may function as a cognitive vulnerability that is further exacerbated in high-risk populations vs. the general population.    

==Mechanisms==
{{Notice|Structure
#Specific memories help problem solving, OGM impairs this
#OGM makes ppl brood/traps 'em in brooding or rummination
#Tie to IMV model + suicidal ideation formation}}
The inability to retrieve specific memories from one's autobiographical memory may lead to inefficient problem-solving abilities, which can impact one's ability to deal with difficult situations as they lack historical experience to rely on&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|url=https://www.ijpsy.com/volumen11/num3/308.html|title=Overgeneral Memory Retrieval and Ineffective Problem-Solving in Depressed Patients with Suicidal Ideation: Implications for Therapy {{!}} IJPSY|website=www.ijpsy.com|access-date=2026-05-08}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite journal|last=Arie|first=Miri|last2=Apter|first2=Alan|last3=Orbach|first3=Israel|last4=Yefet|first4=Yael|last5=Zalzman|first5=Gil|date=2008-01-01|title=Autobiographical memory, interpersonal problem solving, and suicidal behavior in adolescent inpatients|url=https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0010440X07000922|journal=Comprehensive Psychiatry|volume=49|issue=1|pages=22–29|doi=10.1016/j.comppsych.2007.07.004|issn=0010-440X}}&lt;/ref&gt;. Failing to deal with difficult situations can drive an individual to hopelessness. In 1986, an article by Mark J. Williams and Keith Broadbent stipulated that individuals who recently attempted suicide had biased latencies in autobiographical memory retrieval and had reduced specificity in responses to especially positive cues&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|url=https://www.tandfonline.com/action/cookieAbsent|website=www.tandfonline.com|doi=10.1080/02699938808410925|access-date=2026-05-08}}&lt;/ref&gt;. OGM appears to not have a direct effect on suicide, but rather intensifies the risk of suicidal ideation through deteriorating cognitive functioning.   

Rumination involves maladaptive dwelling on one's past negative emotions and feelings&lt;ref name=&quot;:0&quot;&gt;{{Cite journal|last=Treynor|first=Wendy|last2=Gonzalez|first2=Richard|last3=Nolen-Hoeksema|first3=Susan|date=2003-06-01|title=Rumination Reconsidered: A Psychometric Analysis|url=https://doi.org/10.1023/A:1023910315561|journal=Cognitive Therapy and Research|language=en|volume=27|issue=3|pages=247–259|doi=10.1023/A:1023910315561|issn=1573-2819}}&lt;/ref&gt;, and is associated with suicidal behavior/ideation&lt;ref name=&quot;:1&quot;&gt;{{Cite journal|last=O'Connor|first=Rory C.|last2=Kirtley|first2=Olivia J.|date=2018-09-05|title=The integrated motivational–volitional model of suicidal behaviour|url=https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rstb.2017.0268|journal=Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society B: Biological Sciences|language=en|volume=373|issue=1754|pages=20170268|doi=10.1098/rstb.2017.0268|issn=0962-8436|pmc=6053985|pmid=30012735}}&lt;/ref&gt;. One may reflect on their negative emotions and question such emotions in an abstract manner (&quot;How did I get to feel this way?&quot;&lt;ref name=&quot;:0&quot; /&gt;, &quot;Why is this happening to me?&quot;&lt;ref name=&quot;:1&quot; /&gt;), which causes one's memory retrieval to capture negative intermediate conceptual information (ex, &quot;I'm a failure&quot;) instead of specific memories. Repeated rumination strengthens these negative self-beliefs, leading to frequent capture of negative conceptual themes and impeding memory retrieval. This association of rumination and general memory aligns with the CaR-FA-X model&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite journal|last=Stange|first=Jonathan P.|last2=Hamlat|first2=Elissa J.|last3=Hamilton|first3=Jessica L.|last4=Abramson|first4=Lyn Y.|last5=Alloy|first5=Lauren B.|date=2013-02|title=Overgeneral autobiographical memory, emotional maltreatment, and depressive symptoms in adolescence: evidence of a cognitive vulnerability-stress interaction|url=https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3530666/|journal=Journal of Adolescence|volume=36|issue=1|pages=201–208|doi=10.1016/j.adolescence.2012.11.001|issn=1095-9254|pmc=3530666|pmid=23186994}}&lt;/ref&gt;.  

Within the IMV model, OGM falls under '''Threat to Self Moderators (TSM)'''. TSMs spur entrapment (a perceived sense of being trapped by defeat/humilitation), which can lead to suicidal ideation depending on the effects of '''Motivational Moderators (MM).''' Positive factors, such as motivation to live, positive future thinking, and belongingess can offset the transition of entrapment → suicidal ideation, though negative factors, such as thwarted belongingness, very little social support, and perceived burdensomeness, may increase the chance of entrapment converting into suicidal ideation&lt;ref name=&quot;:1&quot; /&gt;.  

==OGM → Suicidal ideation (CORE)==
==Contradictions / Nuances==
==Conclusion==

== References ==
{{Reflist}}
[[Category:Atcovi/OGM &amp; Suicide Poster]]</text>
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      <text bytes="12667" sha1="18xzkw4s9lzythxtoay1qf4l6yfhwlc" xml:space="preserve">''Better translated as the &quot;thinking space&quot; vs. an actual paper.''

''What we doing?'' Integrating OGM → suicidal ideation within a structured model (IMV + mechanisms).

==Introduction==
'''[[w:Overgeneral_autobiographical_memory|Overgeneral autobiographical memory]]''' (OGM) describes a reduced ability to recall specific events in one's autobiographical memory. For example, one may remember attending a birthday party at some point in their life, but they could not uniquely recall a specific instance of attending a birthday party. OGM has been empirically associated with depression, with depressed individuals reporting higher levels of OGM than non-depressed individuals&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite journal|last=Sumner|first=Jennifer A.|last2=Griffith|first2=James W.|last3=Mineka|first3=Susan|date=2010-07|title=Overgeneral autobiographical memory as a predictor of the course of depression: a meta-analysis|url=https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC2878838/|journal=Behaviour Research and Therapy|volume=48|issue=7|pages=614–625|doi=10.1016/j.brat.2010.03.013|issn=1873-622X|pmc=2878838|pmid=20399418}}&lt;/ref&gt;. Given the association of depression and suicidal ideation&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite journal|last=Chachamovich|first=Eduardo|last2=Stefanello|first2=Sabrina|last3=Botega|first3=Neury|last4=Turecki|first4=Gustavo|date=2009-05|title=[Which are the recent clinical findings regarding the association between depression and suicide?]|url=https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19565147|journal=Revista Brasileira De Psiquiatria (Sao Paulo, Brazil: 1999)|volume=31 Suppl 1|pages=S18–25|doi=10.1590/s1516-44462009000500004|issn=1516-4446|pmid=19565147}}&lt;/ref&gt;, utilizing suicide models, such as the '''Integrated Motivational-Volitional (IMV) model''', provides a theoretical cognitive framework to increase understanding of where OGM may fit in the escalation to suicidal ideation and/or suicide.

The IMV model portrays suicidal behavior as an escalating, behavioral process divided into three phases: pre-motivational phase, motivational phase, and volitional phase. The motivational phase is characterized by suicidal ideation formation, where feelings of entrapment (described as a &quot;proximal [predictor] of suicidal ideation&quot;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite journal|last=O'Connor|first=Rory C.|last2=Kirtley|first2=Olivia J.|date=2018-09-05|title=The integrated motivational-volitional model of suicidal behaviour|url=https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6053985/|journal=Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society of London. Series B, Biological Sciences|volume=373|issue=1754|pages=20170268|doi=10.1098/rstb.2017.0268|issn=1471-2970|pmc=6053985|pmid=30012735}}&lt;/ref&gt;), poor problem-solving abilities, brooding, and interpersonal vulnerabilities (thwarted belongingness and perceived burdensomeness) may transition the individual to the volitional phase. When looking at the IMV model and assessing where OGM could play a part in the transition to suicidal ideation, OGM may impair problem-solving capabilities and the ability to learn from the past through reduced retrieval of specific past experiences, leading to hopelessness&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite journal|last=Jiang|first=Wen|last2=Hu|first2=Guangtao|last3=Zhang|first3=Jingxuan|last4=Chen|first4=Ken|last5=Fan|first5=Dongni|last6=Feng|first6=Zhengzhi|date=2020-10-12|title=Distinct effects of over-general autobiographical memory on suicidal ideation among depressed and healthy people|url=https://doi.org/10.1186/s12888-020-02877-6|journal=BMC Psychiatry|language=en|volume=20|issue=1|pages=501|doi=10.1186/s12888-020-02877-6|issn=1471-244X|pmc=7549224|pmid=33046032}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite book|url=https://doi.org/10.1017/9781316563205|title=The Neuroscience of Suicidal Behavior|last=van Heeringen|first=Kees|date=2018-08-23|publisher=Cambridge University Press|isbn=978-1-316-56320-5}}&lt;/ref&gt;.

The current literature aims to shed light on a neglected niche of suicide research: autobiographical memory. Despite the overwhelming research suggesting correlations between OGM and depression and suicidal ideation, research has not thoroughly explored OGM's exact role in a cognitive, theoretical framework of suicidal ideation (specifically within the IMV model). By conducting a narrative review and integrating research on OGM's role in suicidal ideation, this paper furthers understanding on OGM's role in suicidal ideation. 

==OGM as Vulnerability==
Evidence suggests that OGM is a cognitive vulnerability associated with depression and suicidal ideation, though its predictive relevance may vary depending on the population. 

A meta analysis performed by Sumner et. al (2010) found that OGM accounted for about 1-2% of the variance in depressive symptoms at follow-up&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite journal|last=Sumner|first=Jennifer A.|last2=Griffith|first2=James W.|last3=Mineka|first3=Susan|date=2010-07|title=Overgeneral autobiographical memory as a predictor of the course of depression: a meta-analysis|url=https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC2878838/|journal=Behaviour Research and Therapy|volume=48|issue=7|pages=614–625|doi=10.1016/j.brat.2010.03.013|issn=1873-622X|pmc=2878838|pmid=20399418}}&lt;/ref&gt;. A 2020 study found that OGM was associated with depressed patients' current suicidal ideation state and worse-point suicidal ideation, while OGM affected the healthy patients' worse-point suicidal ideation&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite journal|last=Jiang|first=Wen|last2=Hu|first2=Guangtao|last3=Zhang|first3=Jingxuan|last4=Chen|first4=Ken|last5=Fan|first5=Dongni|last6=Feng|first6=Zhengzhi|date=2020-10-12|title=Distinct effects of over-general autobiographical memory on suicidal ideation among depressed and healthy people|url=https://doi.org/10.1186/s12888-020-02877-6|journal=BMC Psychiatry|language=en|volume=20|issue=1|pages=501|doi=10.1186/s12888-020-02877-6|issn=1471-244X|pmc=7549224|pmid=33046032}}&lt;/ref&gt;. However, Crane et. al (2016) conducted a longitudinal study of n≈5800 adolescents from ages 13 to 16 and found that OGM was not significantly associated with depression and did not moderate the effect of life events, suggesting OGM may not be as generalizable to community samples vs. high-risk populations&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite journal|last=Crane|first=Catherine|last2=Heron|first2=Jon|last3=Gunnell|first3=David|last4=Lewis|first4=Glyn|last5=Evans|first5=Jonathan|last6=Williams|first6=J. Mark G.|date=2016|title=Adolescent over-general memory, life events and mental health outcomes: Findings from a UK cohort study|url=https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4743605/|journal=Memory (Hove, England)|volume=24|issue=3|pages=348–363|doi=10.1080/09658211.2015.1008014|issn=1464-0686|pmc=4743605|pmid=25716137}}&lt;/ref&gt;. Even though the findings indicated that OGM was not significantly associated with depression, the study highlights that OGM may function as a vulnerability within high-risk populations. This suggests that OGM's predictive relevance may depend on the risk-level of the population.

OGM persists even past depression, as found in Hallford et. al (2022). A meta-analysis indicated that participants with remitted depression continue to experience small to moderate deficiencies in being able to recall &quot;specific, event-level personal memories&quot;. This indicates that OGM isn't merely a symptom of depression, but may function as a risk factor for future depressive episodes&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite journal|last=Hallford|first=David John|last2=Rusanov|first2=Danielle|last3=Yeow|first3=Joseph J. E.|last4=Barry|first4=Tom Joseph|date=2022-09|title=Reduced specificity and increased overgenerality of autobiographical memory persist as cognitive vulnerabilities in remitted major depression: A meta-analysis|url=https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36129959|journal=Clinical Psychology &amp; Psychotherapy|volume=29|issue=5|pages=1515–1529|doi=10.1002/cpp.2786|issn=1099-0879|pmc=9828164|pmid=36129959}}&lt;/ref&gt;.    

Considering the above, the analysis suggests that OGM may function as a cognitive vulnerability that is further exacerbated in high-risk populations vs. the general population.    

==Mechanisms==
{{Notice|Structure
#Specific memories help problem solving, OGM impairs this
#OGM makes ppl brood/traps 'em in brooding or rummination
#Tie to IMV model + suicidal ideation formation}}
The inability to retrieve specific memories from one's autobiographical memory may lead to inefficient problem-solving abilities, which can impact one's ability to deal with difficult situations as they lack historical experience to rely on&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|url=https://www.ijpsy.com/volumen11/num3/308.html|title=Overgeneral Memory Retrieval and Ineffective Problem-Solving in Depressed Patients with Suicidal Ideation: Implications for Therapy {{!}} IJPSY|website=www.ijpsy.com|access-date=2026-05-08}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite journal|last=Arie|first=Miri|last2=Apter|first2=Alan|last3=Orbach|first3=Israel|last4=Yefet|first4=Yael|last5=Zalzman|first5=Gil|date=2008-01-01|title=Autobiographical memory, interpersonal problem solving, and suicidal behavior in adolescent inpatients|url=https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0010440X07000922|journal=Comprehensive Psychiatry|volume=49|issue=1|pages=22–29|doi=10.1016/j.comppsych.2007.07.004|issn=0010-440X}}&lt;/ref&gt;. Failing to deal with difficult situations can drive an individual to hopelessness. In 1986, an article by Mark J. Williams and Keith Broadbent stipulated that individuals who recently attempted suicide had biased latencies in autobiographical memory retrieval and had reduced specificity in responses to especially positive cues&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|url=https://www.tandfonline.com/action/cookieAbsent|website=www.tandfonline.com|doi=10.1080/02699938808410925|access-date=2026-05-08}}&lt;/ref&gt;. OGM appears to not have a direct effect on suicide, but rather intensifies the risk of suicidal ideation through deteriorating cognitive functioning.   

Rumination involves maladaptive dwelling on one's past negative emotions and feelings&lt;ref name=&quot;:0&quot;&gt;{{Cite journal|last=Treynor|first=Wendy|last2=Gonzalez|first2=Richard|last3=Nolen-Hoeksema|first3=Susan|date=2003-06-01|title=Rumination Reconsidered: A Psychometric Analysis|url=https://doi.org/10.1023/A:1023910315561|journal=Cognitive Therapy and Research|language=en|volume=27|issue=3|pages=247–259|doi=10.1023/A:1023910315561|issn=1573-2819}}&lt;/ref&gt;, and is associated with suicidal behavior/ideation&lt;ref name=&quot;:1&quot;&gt;{{Cite journal|last=O'Connor|first=Rory C.|last2=Kirtley|first2=Olivia J.|date=2018-09-05|title=The integrated motivational–volitional model of suicidal behaviour|url=https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rstb.2017.0268|journal=Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society B: Biological Sciences|language=en|volume=373|issue=1754|pages=20170268|doi=10.1098/rstb.2017.0268|issn=0962-8436|pmc=6053985|pmid=30012735}}&lt;/ref&gt;. One may reflect on their negative emotions and question such emotions in an abstract manner (&quot;How did I get to feel this way?&quot;&lt;ref name=&quot;:0&quot; /&gt;, &quot;Why did this happen to me?&quot;&lt;ref name=&quot;:1&quot; /&gt;), which causes one's memory retrieval to capture negative intermediate conceptual information (ex, &quot;I'm a failure&quot;) instead of specific memories. Repeated rumination strengthens these negative self-beliefs, leading to frequent capture of negative conceptual themes and impeding memory retrieval. This association of rumination and general memory aligns with the CaR-FA-X model&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite journal|last=Stange|first=Jonathan P.|last2=Hamlat|first2=Elissa J.|last3=Hamilton|first3=Jessica L.|last4=Abramson|first4=Lyn Y.|last5=Alloy|first5=Lauren B.|date=2013-02|title=Overgeneral autobiographical memory, emotional maltreatment, and depressive symptoms in adolescence: evidence of a cognitive vulnerability-stress interaction|url=https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3530666/|journal=Journal of Adolescence|volume=36|issue=1|pages=201–208|doi=10.1016/j.adolescence.2012.11.001|issn=1095-9254|pmc=3530666|pmid=23186994}}&lt;/ref&gt;.  

Within the IMV model, OGM falls under '''Threat to Self Moderators (TSM)'''. TSMs spur entrapment (a perceived sense of being trapped by defeat/humilitation), which can lead to suicidal ideation depending on the effects of '''Motivational Moderators (MM).''' Positive factors, such as motivation to live, positive future thinking, and belongingess can offset the transition of entrapment → suicidal ideation, though negative factors, such as thwarted belongingness, very little social support, and perceived burdensomeness, may increase the chance of entrapment converting into suicidal ideation&lt;ref name=&quot;:1&quot; /&gt;.  

==OGM → Suicidal ideation (CORE)==
==Contradictions / Nuances==
==Conclusion==

== References ==
{{Reflist}}
[[Category:Atcovi/OGM &amp; Suicide Poster]]</text>
      <sha1>18xzkw4s9lzythxtoay1qf4l6yfhwlc</sha1>
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    <revision>
      <id>2808095</id>
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      <timestamp>2026-05-09T19:06:24Z</timestamp>
      <contributor>
        <username>Atcovi</username>
        <id>276019</id>
      </contributor>
      <comment>/* Mechanisms */</comment>
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      <text bytes="10928" sha1="shw749wtlzp90ackmmsjvtvqs2u8p62" xml:space="preserve">''Better translated as the &quot;thinking space&quot; vs. an actual paper.''

''What we doing?'' Integrating OGM → suicidal ideation within a structured model (IMV + mechanisms).

==Introduction==
'''[[w:Overgeneral_autobiographical_memory|Overgeneral autobiographical memory]]''' (OGM) describes a reduced ability to recall specific events in one's autobiographical memory. For example, one may remember attending a birthday party at some point in their life, but they could not uniquely recall a specific instance of attending a birthday party. OGM has been empirically associated with depression, with depressed individuals reporting higher levels of OGM than non-depressed individuals&lt;ref name=&quot;:2&quot;&gt;{{Cite journal|last=Sumner|first=Jennifer A.|last2=Griffith|first2=James W.|last3=Mineka|first3=Susan|date=2010-07|title=Overgeneral autobiographical memory as a predictor of the course of depression: a meta-analysis|url=https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC2878838/|journal=Behaviour Research and Therapy|volume=48|issue=7|pages=614–625|doi=10.1016/j.brat.2010.03.013|issn=1873-622X|pmc=2878838|pmid=20399418}}&lt;/ref&gt;. Given the association of depression and suicidal ideation&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite journal|last=Chachamovich|first=Eduardo|last2=Stefanello|first2=Sabrina|last3=Botega|first3=Neury|last4=Turecki|first4=Gustavo|date=2009-05|title=[Which are the recent clinical findings regarding the association between depression and suicide?]|url=https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19565147|journal=Revista Brasileira De Psiquiatria (Sao Paulo, Brazil: 1999)|volume=31 Suppl 1|pages=S18–25|doi=10.1590/s1516-44462009000500004|issn=1516-4446|pmid=19565147}}&lt;/ref&gt;, utilizing suicide models, such as the '''Integrated Motivational-Volitional (IMV) model''', provides a theoretical cognitive framework to increase understanding of where OGM may fit in the escalation to suicidal ideation and/or suicide.

The IMV model portrays suicidal behavior as an escalating, behavioral process divided into three phases: pre-motivational phase, motivational phase, and volitional phase. The motivational phase is characterized by suicidal ideation formation, where feelings of entrapment (described as a &quot;proximal [predictor] of suicidal ideation&quot;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite journal|last=O'Connor|first=Rory C.|last2=Kirtley|first2=Olivia J.|date=2018-09-05|title=The integrated motivational-volitional model of suicidal behaviour|url=https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6053985/|journal=Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society of London. Series B, Biological Sciences|volume=373|issue=1754|pages=20170268|doi=10.1098/rstb.2017.0268|issn=1471-2970|pmc=6053985|pmid=30012735}}&lt;/ref&gt;), poor problem-solving abilities, brooding, and interpersonal vulnerabilities (thwarted belongingness and perceived burdensomeness) may transition the individual to the volitional phase. When looking at the IMV model and assessing where OGM could play a part in the transition to suicidal ideation, OGM may impair problem-solving capabilities and the ability to learn from the past through reduced retrieval of specific past experiences, leading to hopelessness&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite journal|last=Jiang|first=Wen|last2=Hu|first2=Guangtao|last3=Zhang|first3=Jingxuan|last4=Chen|first4=Ken|last5=Fan|first5=Dongni|last6=Feng|first6=Zhengzhi|date=2020-10-12|title=Distinct effects of over-general autobiographical memory on suicidal ideation among depressed and healthy people|url=https://doi.org/10.1186/s12888-020-02877-6|journal=BMC Psychiatry|language=en|volume=20|issue=1|pages=501|doi=10.1186/s12888-020-02877-6|issn=1471-244X|pmc=7549224|pmid=33046032}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite book|url=https://doi.org/10.1017/9781316563205|title=The Neuroscience of Suicidal Behavior|last=van Heeringen|first=Kees|date=2018-08-23|publisher=Cambridge University Press|isbn=978-1-316-56320-5}}&lt;/ref&gt;.

The current literature aims to shed light on a neglected niche of suicide research: autobiographical memory. Despite the overwhelming research suggesting correlations between OGM and depression and suicidal ideation, research has not thoroughly explored OGM's exact role in a cognitive, theoretical framework of suicidal ideation (specifically within the IMV model). By conducting a narrative review and integrating research on OGM's role in suicidal ideation, this paper furthers understanding on OGM's role in suicidal ideation. 

==OGM as Vulnerability==
Evidence suggests that OGM is a cognitive vulnerability associated with depression and suicidal ideation, though its predictive relevance may vary depending on the population. 

A meta analysis performed by Sumner et. al (2010) found that OGM accounted for about 1-2% of the variance in depressive symptoms at follow-up&lt;ref name=&quot;:2&quot; /&gt;. A 2020 study found that OGM was associated with depressed patients' current suicidal ideation state and worse-point suicidal ideation, while OGM affected the healthy patients' worse-point suicidal ideation&lt;ref name=&quot;:2&quot; /&gt;. However, Crane et. al (2016) conducted a longitudinal study of n≈5800 adolescents from ages 13 to 16 and found that OGM was not significantly associated with depression and did not moderate the effect of life events, suggesting OGM may not be as generalizable to community samples vs. high-risk populations&lt;ref name=&quot;:2&quot; /&gt;. Even though the findings indicated that OGM was not significantly associated with depression, the study highlights that OGM may function as a vulnerability within high-risk populations. This suggests that OGM's predictive relevance may depend on the risk-level of the population.

OGM persists even past depression, as found in Hallford et. al (2022). A meta-analysis indicated that participants with remitted depression continue to experience small to moderate deficiencies in being able to recall &quot;specific, event-level personal memories&quot;. This indicates that OGM isn't merely a symptom of depression, but may function as a risk factor for future depressive episodes&lt;ref name=&quot;:2&quot; /&gt;.    

Considering the above, the analysis suggests that OGM may function as a cognitive vulnerability that is further exacerbated in high-risk populations vs. the general population.    

==Mechanisms==
{{Notice|Structure
#Specific memories help problem solving, OGM impairs this
#OGM makes ppl brood/traps 'em in brooding or rummination
#Tie to IMV model + suicidal ideation formation}}
The inability to retrieve specific memories from one's autobiographical memory may lead to inefficient problem-solving abilities, which can impact one's ability to deal with difficult situations as they lack historical experience to rely on&lt;ref name=&quot;:2&quot; /&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite journal|last=Arie|first=Miri|last2=Apter|first2=Alan|last3=Orbach|first3=Israel|last4=Yefet|first4=Yael|last5=Zalzman|first5=Gil|date=2008-01-01|title=Autobiographical memory, interpersonal problem solving, and suicidal behavior in adolescent inpatients|url=https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0010440X07000922|journal=Comprehensive Psychiatry|volume=49|issue=1|pages=22–29|doi=10.1016/j.comppsych.2007.07.004|issn=0010-440X}}&lt;/ref&gt;. Failing to deal with difficult situations can drive an individual to hopelessness. In 1986, an article by Mark J. Williams and Keith Broadbent stipulated that individuals who recently attempted suicide had biased latencies in autobiographical memory retrieval and had reduced specificity in responses to especially positive cues&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|url=https://www.tandfonline.com/action/cookieAbsent|website=www.tandfonline.com|doi=10.1080/02699938808410925|access-date=2026-05-08}}&lt;/ref&gt;. OGM appears to not have a direct effect on suicide, but rather intensifies the risk of suicidal ideation through deteriorating cognitive functioning.   

Rumination involves maladaptive dwelling on one's past negative emotions and feelings&lt;ref name=&quot;:0&quot;&gt;{{Cite journal|last=Treynor|first=Wendy|last2=Gonzalez|first2=Richard|last3=Nolen-Hoeksema|first3=Susan|date=2003-06-01|title=Rumination Reconsidered: A Psychometric Analysis|url=https://doi.org/10.1023/A:1023910315561|journal=Cognitive Therapy and Research|language=en|volume=27|issue=3|pages=247–259|doi=10.1023/A:1023910315561|issn=1573-2819}}&lt;/ref&gt;, and is associated with suicidal behavior/ideation&lt;ref name=&quot;:1&quot;&gt;{{Cite journal|last=O'Connor|first=Rory C.|last2=Kirtley|first2=Olivia J.|date=2018-09-05|title=The integrated motivational–volitional model of suicidal behaviour|url=https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rstb.2017.0268|journal=Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society B: Biological Sciences|language=en|volume=373|issue=1754|pages=20170268|doi=10.1098/rstb.2017.0268|issn=0962-8436|pmc=6053985|pmid=30012735}}&lt;/ref&gt;. One may reflect on their negative emotions and question such emotions in an abstract manner (&quot;How did I get to feel this way?&quot;&lt;ref name=&quot;:0&quot; /&gt;, &quot;Why did this happen to me?&quot;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite journal|last=Sumner|first=Jennifer A.|date=2012-02|title=The mechanisms underlying overgeneral autobiographical memory: an evaluative review of evidence for the CaR-FA-X model|url=https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3246105/|journal=Clinical Psychology Review|volume=32|issue=1|pages=34–48|doi=10.1016/j.cpr.2011.10.003|issn=1873-7811|pmc=3246105|pmid=22142837}}&lt;/ref&gt;), which causes one's memory retrieval to capture negative intermediate conceptual information (ex, &quot;I'm a failure&quot;) instead of specific memories. Repeated rumination strengthens these negative self-beliefs, leading to frequent capture of negative conceptual themes and impeding memory retrieval. This association of rumination and general memory aligns with the CaR-FA-X model&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite journal|last=Stange|first=Jonathan P.|last2=Hamlat|first2=Elissa J.|last3=Hamilton|first3=Jessica L.|last4=Abramson|first4=Lyn Y.|last5=Alloy|first5=Lauren B.|date=2013-02|title=Overgeneral autobiographical memory, emotional maltreatment, and depressive symptoms in adolescence: evidence of a cognitive vulnerability-stress interaction|url=https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3530666/|journal=Journal of Adolescence|volume=36|issue=1|pages=201–208|doi=10.1016/j.adolescence.2012.11.001|issn=1095-9254|pmc=3530666|pmid=23186994}}&lt;/ref&gt;.  

Within the IMV model, OGM falls under '''Threat to Self Moderators (TSM)'''. TSMs spur entrapment (a perceived sense of being trapped by defeat/humilitation), which can lead to suicidal ideation depending on the effects of '''Motivational Moderators (MM).''' Positive factors, such as motivation to live, positive future thinking, and belongingess can offset the transition of entrapment → suicidal ideation, though negative factors, such as thwarted belongingness, very little social support, and perceived burdensomeness, may increase the chance of entrapment converting into suicidal ideation&lt;ref name=&quot;:1&quot; /&gt;.  

==OGM → Suicidal ideation (CORE)==
==Contradictions / Nuances==
==Conclusion==

== References ==
{{Reflist}}
[[Category:Atcovi/OGM &amp; Suicide Poster]]</text>
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      <text bytes="10743" sha1="0r9b1kp0x59gaf6cduifhasgtlcaypu" xml:space="preserve">''Better translated as the &quot;thinking space&quot; vs. an actual paper.''

''What we doing?'' Integrating OGM → suicidal ideation within a structured model (IMV + mechanisms).

==Introduction==
'''[[w:Overgeneral_autobiographical_memory|Overgeneral autobiographical memory]]''' (OGM) describes a reduced ability to recall specific events in one's autobiographical memory. For example, one may remember attending a birthday party at some point in their life, but they could not uniquely recall a specific instance of attending a birthday party. OGM has been empirically associated with depression, with depressed individuals reporting higher levels of OGM than non-depressed individuals&lt;ref name=&quot;:2&quot;&gt;{{Cite journal|last=Sumner|first=Jennifer A.|last2=Griffith|first2=James W.|last3=Mineka|first3=Susan|date=2010-07|title=Overgeneral autobiographical memory as a predictor of the course of depression: a meta-analysis|url=https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC2878838/|journal=Behaviour Research and Therapy|volume=48|issue=7|pages=614–625|doi=10.1016/j.brat.2010.03.013|issn=1873-622X|pmc=2878838|pmid=20399418}}&lt;/ref&gt;. Given the association of depression and suicidal ideation&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite journal|last=Chachamovich|first=Eduardo|last2=Stefanello|first2=Sabrina|last3=Botega|first3=Neury|last4=Turecki|first4=Gustavo|date=2009-05|title=[Which are the recent clinical findings regarding the association between depression and suicide?]|url=https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19565147|journal=Revista Brasileira De Psiquiatria (Sao Paulo, Brazil: 1999)|volume=31 Suppl 1|pages=S18–25|doi=10.1590/s1516-44462009000500004|issn=1516-4446|pmid=19565147}}&lt;/ref&gt;, utilizing suicide models, such as the '''Integrated Motivational-Volitional (IMV) model''', provides a theoretical cognitive framework to increase understanding of where OGM may fit in the escalation to suicidal ideation and/or suicide.

The IMV model portrays suicidal behavior as an escalating, behavioral process divided into three phases: pre-motivational phase, motivational phase, and volitional phase. The motivational phase is characterized by suicidal ideation formation, where feelings of entrapment (described as a &quot;proximal [predictor] of suicidal ideation&quot;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite journal|last=O'Connor|first=Rory C.|last2=Kirtley|first2=Olivia J.|date=2018-09-05|title=The integrated motivational-volitional model of suicidal behaviour|url=https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6053985/|journal=Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society of London. Series B, Biological Sciences|volume=373|issue=1754|pages=20170268|doi=10.1098/rstb.2017.0268|issn=1471-2970|pmc=6053985|pmid=30012735}}&lt;/ref&gt;), poor problem-solving abilities, brooding, and interpersonal vulnerabilities (thwarted belongingness and perceived burdensomeness) may transition the individual to the volitional phase. When looking at the IMV model and assessing where OGM could play a part in the transition to suicidal ideation, OGM may impair problem-solving capabilities and the ability to learn from the past through reduced retrieval of specific past experiences, leading to hopelessness&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite journal|last=Jiang|first=Wen|last2=Hu|first2=Guangtao|last3=Zhang|first3=Jingxuan|last4=Chen|first4=Ken|last5=Fan|first5=Dongni|last6=Feng|first6=Zhengzhi|date=2020-10-12|title=Distinct effects of over-general autobiographical memory on suicidal ideation among depressed and healthy people|url=https://doi.org/10.1186/s12888-020-02877-6|journal=BMC Psychiatry|language=en|volume=20|issue=1|pages=501|doi=10.1186/s12888-020-02877-6|issn=1471-244X|pmc=7549224|pmid=33046032}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite book|url=https://doi.org/10.1017/9781316563205|title=The Neuroscience of Suicidal Behavior|last=van Heeringen|first=Kees|date=2018-08-23|publisher=Cambridge University Press|isbn=978-1-316-56320-5}}&lt;/ref&gt;.

The current literature aims to shed light on a neglected niche of suicide research: autobiographical memory. Despite the overwhelming research suggesting correlations between OGM and depression and suicidal ideation, research has not thoroughly explored OGM's exact role in a cognitive, theoretical framework of suicidal ideation (specifically within the IMV model). By conducting a narrative review and integrating research on OGM's role in suicidal ideation, this paper furthers understanding on OGM's role in suicidal ideation. 

==OGM as Vulnerability==
Evidence suggests that OGM is a cognitive vulnerability associated with depression and suicidal ideation, though its predictive relevance may vary depending on the population. 

A meta analysis performed by Sumner et. al (2010) found that OGM accounted for about 1-2% of the variance in depressive symptoms at follow-up&lt;ref name=&quot;:2&quot; /&gt;. A 2020 study found that OGM was associated with depressed patients' current suicidal ideation state and worse-point suicidal ideation, while OGM affected the healthy patients' worse-point suicidal ideation&lt;ref name=&quot;:2&quot; /&gt;. However, Crane et. al (2016) conducted a longitudinal study of n≈5800 adolescents from ages 13 to 16 and found that OGM was not significantly associated with depression and did not moderate the effect of life events, suggesting OGM may not be as generalizable to community samples vs. high-risk populations&lt;ref name=&quot;:2&quot; /&gt;. Even though the findings indicated that OGM was not significantly associated with depression, the study highlights that OGM may function as a vulnerability within high-risk populations. This suggests that OGM's predictive relevance may depend on the risk-level of the population.

OGM persists even past depression, as found in Hallford et. al (2022). A meta-analysis indicated that participants with remitted depression continue to experience small to moderate deficiencies in being able to recall &quot;specific, event-level personal memories&quot;. This indicates that OGM isn't merely a symptom of depression, but may function as a risk factor for future depressive episodes&lt;ref name=&quot;:2&quot; /&gt;.    

Considering the above, the analysis suggests that OGM may function as a cognitive vulnerability that is further exacerbated in high-risk populations vs. the general population.    

==Mechanisms==
The inability to retrieve specific memories from one's autobiographical memory may lead to inefficient problem-solving abilities, which can impact one's ability to deal with difficult situations as they lack historical experience to rely on&lt;ref name=&quot;:2&quot; /&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite journal|last=Arie|first=Miri|last2=Apter|first2=Alan|last3=Orbach|first3=Israel|last4=Yefet|first4=Yael|last5=Zalzman|first5=Gil|date=2008-01-01|title=Autobiographical memory, interpersonal problem solving, and suicidal behavior in adolescent inpatients|url=https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0010440X07000922|journal=Comprehensive Psychiatry|volume=49|issue=1|pages=22–29|doi=10.1016/j.comppsych.2007.07.004|issn=0010-440X}}&lt;/ref&gt;. Failing to deal with difficult situations can drive an individual to hopelessness. In 1986, an article by Mark J. Williams and Keith Broadbent stipulated that individuals who recently attempted suicide had biased latencies in autobiographical memory retrieval and had reduced specificity in responses to especially positive cues&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|url=https://www.tandfonline.com/action/cookieAbsent|website=www.tandfonline.com|doi=10.1080/02699938808410925|access-date=2026-05-08}}&lt;/ref&gt;. OGM appears to not have a direct effect on suicide, but rather intensifies the risk of suicidal ideation through deteriorating cognitive functioning.   

Rumination involves maladaptive dwelling on one's past negative emotions and feelings&lt;ref name=&quot;:0&quot;&gt;{{Cite journal|last=Treynor|first=Wendy|last2=Gonzalez|first2=Richard|last3=Nolen-Hoeksema|first3=Susan|date=2003-06-01|title=Rumination Reconsidered: A Psychometric Analysis|url=https://doi.org/10.1023/A:1023910315561|journal=Cognitive Therapy and Research|language=en|volume=27|issue=3|pages=247–259|doi=10.1023/A:1023910315561|issn=1573-2819}}&lt;/ref&gt;, and is associated with suicidal behavior/ideation&lt;ref name=&quot;:1&quot;&gt;{{Cite journal|last=O'Connor|first=Rory C.|last2=Kirtley|first2=Olivia J.|date=2018-09-05|title=The integrated motivational–volitional model of suicidal behaviour|url=https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rstb.2017.0268|journal=Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society B: Biological Sciences|language=en|volume=373|issue=1754|pages=20170268|doi=10.1098/rstb.2017.0268|issn=0962-8436|pmc=6053985|pmid=30012735}}&lt;/ref&gt;. One may reflect on their negative emotions and question such emotions in an abstract manner (&quot;How did I get to feel this way?&quot;&lt;ref name=&quot;:0&quot; /&gt;, &quot;Why did this happen to me?&quot;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite journal|last=Sumner|first=Jennifer A.|date=2012-02|title=The mechanisms underlying overgeneral autobiographical memory: an evaluative review of evidence for the CaR-FA-X model|url=https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3246105/|journal=Clinical Psychology Review|volume=32|issue=1|pages=34–48|doi=10.1016/j.cpr.2011.10.003|issn=1873-7811|pmc=3246105|pmid=22142837}}&lt;/ref&gt;), which causes one's memory retrieval to capture negative intermediate conceptual information (ex, &quot;I'm a failure&quot;) instead of specific memories. Repeated rumination strengthens these negative self-beliefs, leading to frequent capture of negative conceptual themes and impeding memory retrieval. This association of rumination and general memory aligns with the CaR-FA-X model&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite journal|last=Stange|first=Jonathan P.|last2=Hamlat|first2=Elissa J.|last3=Hamilton|first3=Jessica L.|last4=Abramson|first4=Lyn Y.|last5=Alloy|first5=Lauren B.|date=2013-02|title=Overgeneral autobiographical memory, emotional maltreatment, and depressive symptoms in adolescence: evidence of a cognitive vulnerability-stress interaction|url=https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3530666/|journal=Journal of Adolescence|volume=36|issue=1|pages=201–208|doi=10.1016/j.adolescence.2012.11.001|issn=1095-9254|pmc=3530666|pmid=23186994}}&lt;/ref&gt;.  

Within the IMV model, OGM falls under '''Threat to Self Moderators (TSM)'''. TSMs spur entrapment (a perceived sense of being trapped by defeat/humilitation), which can lead to suicidal ideation depending on the effects of '''Motivational Moderators (MM).''' Positive factors, such as motivation to live, positive future thinking, and belongingess can offset the transition of entrapment → suicidal ideation, though negative factors, such as thwarted belongingness, very little social support, and perceived burdensomeness, may increase the chance of entrapment converting into suicidal ideation&lt;ref name=&quot;:1&quot; /&gt;.  

==OGM → Suicidal ideation (CORE)==
==Contradictions / Nuances==
==Conclusion==

== References ==
{{Reflist}}
[[Category:Atcovi/OGM &amp; Suicide Poster]]</text>
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      <text bytes="10771" sha1="csk0vkejwr6llyoz65rkzs7rhr0ocml" xml:space="preserve">''Better translated as the &quot;thinking space&quot; vs. an actual paper.''

''What we doing?'' Integrating OGM → suicidal ideation within a structured model (IMV + mechanisms).

==Introduction==
'''[[w:Overgeneral_autobiographical_memory|Overgeneral autobiographical memory]]''' (OGM) describes a reduced ability to recall specific events in one's autobiographical memory. For example, one may remember attending a birthday party at some point in their life, but they could not uniquely recall a specific instance of attending a birthday party. OGM has been empirically associated with depression, with depressed individuals reporting higher levels of OGM than non-depressed individuals&lt;ref name=&quot;:2&quot;&gt;{{Cite journal|last=Sumner|first=Jennifer A.|last2=Griffith|first2=James W.|last3=Mineka|first3=Susan|date=2010-07|title=Overgeneral autobiographical memory as a predictor of the course of depression: a meta-analysis|url=https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC2878838/|journal=Behaviour Research and Therapy|volume=48|issue=7|pages=614–625|doi=10.1016/j.brat.2010.03.013|issn=1873-622X|pmc=2878838|pmid=20399418}}&lt;/ref&gt;. Given the association of depression and suicidal ideation&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite journal|last=Chachamovich|first=Eduardo|last2=Stefanello|first2=Sabrina|last3=Botega|first3=Neury|last4=Turecki|first4=Gustavo|date=2009-05|title=[Which are the recent clinical findings regarding the association between depression and suicide?]|url=https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19565147|journal=Revista Brasileira De Psiquiatria (Sao Paulo, Brazil: 1999)|volume=31 Suppl 1|pages=S18–25|doi=10.1590/s1516-44462009000500004|issn=1516-4446|pmid=19565147}}&lt;/ref&gt;, utilizing suicide models, such as the '''Integrated Motivational-Volitional (IMV) model''', provides a theoretical cognitive framework to increase understanding of where OGM may fit in the escalation to suicidal ideation and/or suicide.

The IMV model portrays suicidal behavior as an escalating, behavioral process divided into three phases: pre-motivational phase, motivational phase, and volitional phase. The motivational phase is characterized by suicidal ideation formation, where feelings of entrapment (described as a &quot;proximal [predictor] of suicidal ideation&quot;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite journal|last=O'Connor|first=Rory C.|last2=Kirtley|first2=Olivia J.|date=2018-09-05|title=The integrated motivational-volitional model of suicidal behaviour|url=https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6053985/|journal=Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society of London. Series B, Biological Sciences|volume=373|issue=1754|pages=20170268|doi=10.1098/rstb.2017.0268|issn=1471-2970|pmc=6053985|pmid=30012735}}&lt;/ref&gt;), poor problem-solving abilities, brooding, and interpersonal vulnerabilities (thwarted belongingness and perceived burdensomeness) may transition the individual to the volitional phase. When looking at the IMV model and assessing where OGM could play a part in the transition to suicidal ideation, OGM may impair problem-solving capabilities and the ability to learn from the past through reduced retrieval of specific past experiences, leading to hopelessness&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite journal|last=Jiang|first=Wen|last2=Hu|first2=Guangtao|last3=Zhang|first3=Jingxuan|last4=Chen|first4=Ken|last5=Fan|first5=Dongni|last6=Feng|first6=Zhengzhi|date=2020-10-12|title=Distinct effects of over-general autobiographical memory on suicidal ideation among depressed and healthy people|url=https://doi.org/10.1186/s12888-020-02877-6|journal=BMC Psychiatry|language=en|volume=20|issue=1|pages=501|doi=10.1186/s12888-020-02877-6|issn=1471-244X|pmc=7549224|pmid=33046032}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite book|url=https://doi.org/10.1017/9781316563205|title=The Neuroscience of Suicidal Behavior|last=van Heeringen|first=Kees|date=2018-08-23|publisher=Cambridge University Press|isbn=978-1-316-56320-5}}&lt;/ref&gt;.

The current literature aims to shed light on a neglected niche of suicide research: autobiographical memory. Despite the overwhelming research suggesting correlations between OGM and depression and suicidal ideation, research has not thoroughly explored OGM's exact role in a cognitive, theoretical framework of suicidal ideation (specifically within the IMV model). By conducting a narrative review and integrating research on OGM's role in suicidal ideation, this paper furthers understanding on OGM's role in suicidal ideation. 

==OGM as Vulnerability==
Evidence suggests that OGM is a cognitive vulnerability associated with depression and suicidal ideation, though its predictive relevance may vary depending on the population. 

A meta analysis performed by Sumner et. al (2010) found that OGM accounted for about 1-2% of the variance in depressive symptoms at follow-up&lt;ref name=&quot;:2&quot; /&gt;. A 2020 study found that OGM was associated with depressed patients' current suicidal ideation state and worse-point suicidal ideation, while OGM affected the healthy patients' worse-point suicidal ideation&lt;ref name=&quot;:2&quot; /&gt;. However, Crane et. al (2016) conducted a longitudinal study of n≈5800 adolescents from ages 13 to 16 and found that OGM was not significantly associated with depression and did not moderate the effect of life events, suggesting OGM may not be as generalizable to community samples vs. high-risk populations&lt;ref name=&quot;:2&quot; /&gt;. Even though the findings indicated that OGM was not significantly associated with depression, the study highlights that OGM may function as a vulnerability within high-risk populations. This suggests that OGM's predictive relevance may depend on the risk-level of the population.

OGM persists even past depression, as found in Hallford et. al (2022). A meta-analysis indicated that participants with remitted depression continue to experience small to moderate deficiencies in being able to recall &quot;specific, event-level personal memories&quot;. This indicates that OGM isn't merely a symptom of depression, but may function as a risk factor for future depressive episodes&lt;ref name=&quot;:2&quot; /&gt;.    

Considering the above, the analysis suggests that OGM may function as a cognitive vulnerability that is further exacerbated in high-risk populations vs. the general population.    

==Mechanisms==
The inability to retrieve specific memories from one's autobiographical memory may lead to inefficient problem-solving abilities, which can impact one's ability to deal with difficult situations as they lack past experiences to rely on&lt;ref name=&quot;:2&quot; /&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite journal|last=Arie|first=Miri|last2=Apter|first2=Alan|last3=Orbach|first3=Israel|last4=Yefet|first4=Yael|last5=Zalzman|first5=Gil|date=2008-01-01|title=Autobiographical memory, interpersonal problem solving, and suicidal behavior in adolescent inpatients|url=https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0010440X07000922|journal=Comprehensive Psychiatry|volume=49|issue=1|pages=22–29|doi=10.1016/j.comppsych.2007.07.004|issn=0010-440X}}&lt;/ref&gt;. Failing to deal with difficult situations can drive an individual to hopelessness. In 1986, an article by Mark J. Williams and Keith Broadbent stipulated that individuals who recently attempted suicide had biased latencies in autobiographical memory retrieval and had reduced specificity in responses to especially positive cues&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|url=https://www.tandfonline.com/action/cookieAbsent|website=www.tandfonline.com|doi=10.1080/02699938808410925|access-date=2026-05-08}}&lt;/ref&gt;. OGM may not have a direct effect on suicide, but the evidence suggests that OGM intensifies the risk of suicidal ideation through deteriorating cognitive functioning.   

Rumination involves maladaptive dwelling on one's past negative emotions and feelings&lt;ref name=&quot;:0&quot;&gt;{{Cite journal|last=Treynor|first=Wendy|last2=Gonzalez|first2=Richard|last3=Nolen-Hoeksema|first3=Susan|date=2003-06-01|title=Rumination Reconsidered: A Psychometric Analysis|url=https://doi.org/10.1023/A:1023910315561|journal=Cognitive Therapy and Research|language=en|volume=27|issue=3|pages=247–259|doi=10.1023/A:1023910315561|issn=1573-2819}}&lt;/ref&gt;, and is associated with suicidal behavior/ideation&lt;ref name=&quot;:1&quot;&gt;{{Cite journal|last=O'Connor|first=Rory C.|last2=Kirtley|first2=Olivia J.|date=2018-09-05|title=The integrated motivational–volitional model of suicidal behaviour|url=https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rstb.2017.0268|journal=Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society B: Biological Sciences|language=en|volume=373|issue=1754|pages=20170268|doi=10.1098/rstb.2017.0268|issn=0962-8436|pmc=6053985|pmid=30012735}}&lt;/ref&gt;. One may reflect on their negative emotions and question such emotions in an abstract manner (&quot;How did I get to feel this way?&quot;&lt;ref name=&quot;:0&quot; /&gt;, &quot;Why did this happen to me?&quot;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite journal|last=Sumner|first=Jennifer A.|date=2012-02|title=The mechanisms underlying overgeneral autobiographical memory: an evaluative review of evidence for the CaR-FA-X model|url=https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3246105/|journal=Clinical Psychology Review|volume=32|issue=1|pages=34–48|doi=10.1016/j.cpr.2011.10.003|issn=1873-7811|pmc=3246105|pmid=22142837}}&lt;/ref&gt;), which causes one's memory retrieval to capture negative intermediate conceptual information (ex, &quot;I'm a failure&quot;) instead of specific memories. Repeated rumination strengthens these negative self-beliefs, leading to frequent capture of negative conceptual themes and impeding memory retrieval. This association of rumination and general memory aligns with the CaR-FA-X model&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite journal|last=Stange|first=Jonathan P.|last2=Hamlat|first2=Elissa J.|last3=Hamilton|first3=Jessica L.|last4=Abramson|first4=Lyn Y.|last5=Alloy|first5=Lauren B.|date=2013-02|title=Overgeneral autobiographical memory, emotional maltreatment, and depressive symptoms in adolescence: evidence of a cognitive vulnerability-stress interaction|url=https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3530666/|journal=Journal of Adolescence|volume=36|issue=1|pages=201–208|doi=10.1016/j.adolescence.2012.11.001|issn=1095-9254|pmc=3530666|pmid=23186994}}&lt;/ref&gt;.  

Within the IMV model, we propose that OGM falls under '''Threat to Self Moderators (TSM)'''. TSMs spur entrapment (a perceived sense of being trapped by defeat/humilitation), which can lead to suicidal ideation depending on the effects of '''Motivational Moderators (MM).''' Positive factors, such as motivation to live, positive future thinking, and belongingess can offset the transition of entrapment → suicidal ideation, though negative factors, such as thwarted belongingness, very little social support, and perceived burdensomeness, may increase the chance of entrapment converting into suicidal ideation&lt;ref name=&quot;:1&quot; /&gt;.  

==OGM → Suicidal ideation (CORE)==
==Contradictions / Nuances==
==Conclusion==

== References ==
{{Reflist}}
[[Category:Atcovi/OGM &amp; Suicide Poster]]</text>
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      <comment>/* OGM as Vulnerability */</comment>
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      <text bytes="10773" sha1="asgl1qgm03d7g9lbgvsfpom3r3fktnv" xml:space="preserve">''Better translated as the &quot;thinking space&quot; vs. an actual paper.''

''What we doing?'' Integrating OGM → suicidal ideation within a structured model (IMV + mechanisms).

==Introduction==
'''[[w:Overgeneral_autobiographical_memory|Overgeneral autobiographical memory]]''' (OGM) describes a reduced ability to recall specific events in one's autobiographical memory. For example, one may remember attending a birthday party at some point in their life, but they could not uniquely recall a specific instance of attending a birthday party. OGM has been empirically associated with depression, with depressed individuals reporting higher levels of OGM than non-depressed individuals&lt;ref name=&quot;:2&quot;&gt;{{Cite journal|last=Sumner|first=Jennifer A.|last2=Griffith|first2=James W.|last3=Mineka|first3=Susan|date=2010-07|title=Overgeneral autobiographical memory as a predictor of the course of depression: a meta-analysis|url=https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC2878838/|journal=Behaviour Research and Therapy|volume=48|issue=7|pages=614–625|doi=10.1016/j.brat.2010.03.013|issn=1873-622X|pmc=2878838|pmid=20399418}}&lt;/ref&gt;. Given the association of depression and suicidal ideation&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite journal|last=Chachamovich|first=Eduardo|last2=Stefanello|first2=Sabrina|last3=Botega|first3=Neury|last4=Turecki|first4=Gustavo|date=2009-05|title=[Which are the recent clinical findings regarding the association between depression and suicide?]|url=https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19565147|journal=Revista Brasileira De Psiquiatria (Sao Paulo, Brazil: 1999)|volume=31 Suppl 1|pages=S18–25|doi=10.1590/s1516-44462009000500004|issn=1516-4446|pmid=19565147}}&lt;/ref&gt;, utilizing suicide models, such as the '''Integrated Motivational-Volitional (IMV) model''', provides a theoretical cognitive framework to increase understanding of where OGM may fit in the escalation to suicidal ideation and/or suicide.

The IMV model portrays suicidal behavior as an escalating, behavioral process divided into three phases: pre-motivational phase, motivational phase, and volitional phase. The motivational phase is characterized by suicidal ideation formation, where feelings of entrapment (described as a &quot;proximal [predictor] of suicidal ideation&quot;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite journal|last=O'Connor|first=Rory C.|last2=Kirtley|first2=Olivia J.|date=2018-09-05|title=The integrated motivational-volitional model of suicidal behaviour|url=https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6053985/|journal=Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society of London. Series B, Biological Sciences|volume=373|issue=1754|pages=20170268|doi=10.1098/rstb.2017.0268|issn=1471-2970|pmc=6053985|pmid=30012735}}&lt;/ref&gt;), poor problem-solving abilities, brooding, and interpersonal vulnerabilities (thwarted belongingness and perceived burdensomeness) may transition the individual to the volitional phase. When looking at the IMV model and assessing where OGM could play a part in the transition to suicidal ideation, OGM may impair problem-solving capabilities and the ability to learn from the past through reduced retrieval of specific past experiences, leading to hopelessness&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite journal|last=Jiang|first=Wen|last2=Hu|first2=Guangtao|last3=Zhang|first3=Jingxuan|last4=Chen|first4=Ken|last5=Fan|first5=Dongni|last6=Feng|first6=Zhengzhi|date=2020-10-12|title=Distinct effects of over-general autobiographical memory on suicidal ideation among depressed and healthy people|url=https://doi.org/10.1186/s12888-020-02877-6|journal=BMC Psychiatry|language=en|volume=20|issue=1|pages=501|doi=10.1186/s12888-020-02877-6|issn=1471-244X|pmc=7549224|pmid=33046032}}&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite book|url=https://doi.org/10.1017/9781316563205|title=The Neuroscience of Suicidal Behavior|last=van Heeringen|first=Kees|date=2018-08-23|publisher=Cambridge University Press|isbn=978-1-316-56320-5}}&lt;/ref&gt;.

The current literature aims to shed light on a neglected niche of suicide research: autobiographical memory. Despite the overwhelming research suggesting correlations between OGM and depression and suicidal ideation, research has not thoroughly explored OGM's exact role in a cognitive, theoretical framework of suicidal ideation (specifically within the IMV model). By conducting a narrative review and integrating research on OGM's role in suicidal ideation, this paper furthers understanding on OGM's role in suicidal ideation. 

==OGM as a Vulnerability==
Evidence suggests that OGM is a cognitive vulnerability associated with depression and suicidal ideation, though its predictive relevance may vary depending on the population. 

A meta analysis performed by Sumner et. al (2010) found that OGM accounted for about 1-2% of the variance in depressive symptoms at follow-up&lt;ref name=&quot;:2&quot; /&gt;. A 2020 study found that OGM was associated with depressed patients' current suicidal ideation state and worse-point suicidal ideation, while OGM affected the healthy patients' worse-point suicidal ideation&lt;ref name=&quot;:2&quot; /&gt;. However, Crane et. al (2016) conducted a longitudinal study of n≈5800 adolescents from ages 13 to 16 and found that OGM was not significantly associated with depression and did not moderate the effect of life events, suggesting OGM may not be as generalizable to community samples vs. high-risk populations&lt;ref name=&quot;:2&quot; /&gt;. Even though the findings indicated that OGM was not significantly associated with depression, the study highlights that OGM may function as a vulnerability within high-risk populations. This suggests that OGM's predictive relevance may depend on the risk-level of the population.

OGM persists even past depression, as found in Hallford et. al (2022). A meta-analysis indicated that participants with remitted depression continue to experience small to moderate deficiencies in being able to recall &quot;specific, event-level personal memories&quot;. This indicates that OGM isn't merely a symptom of depression, but may function as a risk factor for future depressive episodes&lt;ref name=&quot;:2&quot; /&gt;.    

Considering the above, the analysis suggests that OGM may function as a cognitive vulnerability that is further exacerbated in high-risk populations vs. the general population.    

==Mechanisms==
The inability to retrieve specific memories from one's autobiographical memory may lead to inefficient problem-solving abilities, which can impact one's ability to deal with difficult situations as they lack past experiences to rely on&lt;ref name=&quot;:2&quot; /&gt;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite journal|last=Arie|first=Miri|last2=Apter|first2=Alan|last3=Orbach|first3=Israel|last4=Yefet|first4=Yael|last5=Zalzman|first5=Gil|date=2008-01-01|title=Autobiographical memory, interpersonal problem solving, and suicidal behavior in adolescent inpatients|url=https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0010440X07000922|journal=Comprehensive Psychiatry|volume=49|issue=1|pages=22–29|doi=10.1016/j.comppsych.2007.07.004|issn=0010-440X}}&lt;/ref&gt;. Failing to deal with difficult situations can drive an individual to hopelessness. In 1986, an article by Mark J. Williams and Keith Broadbent stipulated that individuals who recently attempted suicide had biased latencies in autobiographical memory retrieval and had reduced specificity in responses to especially positive cues&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite web|url=https://www.tandfonline.com/action/cookieAbsent|website=www.tandfonline.com|doi=10.1080/02699938808410925|access-date=2026-05-08}}&lt;/ref&gt;. OGM may not have a direct effect on suicide, but the evidence suggests that OGM intensifies the risk of suicidal ideation through deteriorating cognitive functioning.   

Rumination involves maladaptive dwelling on one's past negative emotions and feelings&lt;ref name=&quot;:0&quot;&gt;{{Cite journal|last=Treynor|first=Wendy|last2=Gonzalez|first2=Richard|last3=Nolen-Hoeksema|first3=Susan|date=2003-06-01|title=Rumination Reconsidered: A Psychometric Analysis|url=https://doi.org/10.1023/A:1023910315561|journal=Cognitive Therapy and Research|language=en|volume=27|issue=3|pages=247–259|doi=10.1023/A:1023910315561|issn=1573-2819}}&lt;/ref&gt;, and is associated with suicidal behavior/ideation&lt;ref name=&quot;:1&quot;&gt;{{Cite journal|last=O'Connor|first=Rory C.|last2=Kirtley|first2=Olivia J.|date=2018-09-05|title=The integrated motivational–volitional model of suicidal behaviour|url=https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rstb.2017.0268|journal=Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society B: Biological Sciences|language=en|volume=373|issue=1754|pages=20170268|doi=10.1098/rstb.2017.0268|issn=0962-8436|pmc=6053985|pmid=30012735}}&lt;/ref&gt;. One may reflect on their negative emotions and question such emotions in an abstract manner (&quot;How did I get to feel this way?&quot;&lt;ref name=&quot;:0&quot; /&gt;, &quot;Why did this happen to me?&quot;&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite journal|last=Sumner|first=Jennifer A.|date=2012-02|title=The mechanisms underlying overgeneral autobiographical memory: an evaluative review of evidence for the CaR-FA-X model|url=https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3246105/|journal=Clinical Psychology Review|volume=32|issue=1|pages=34–48|doi=10.1016/j.cpr.2011.10.003|issn=1873-7811|pmc=3246105|pmid=22142837}}&lt;/ref&gt;), which causes one's memory retrieval to capture negative intermediate conceptual information (ex, &quot;I'm a failure&quot;) instead of specific memories. Repeated rumination strengthens these negative self-beliefs, leading to frequent capture of negative conceptual themes and impeding memory retrieval. This association of rumination and general memory aligns with the CaR-FA-X model&lt;ref&gt;{{Cite journal|last=Stange|first=Jonathan P.|last2=Hamlat|first2=Elissa J.|last3=Hamilton|first3=Jessica L.|last4=Abramson|first4=Lyn Y.|last5=Alloy|first5=Lauren B.|date=2013-02|title=Overgeneral autobiographical memory, emotional maltreatment, and depressive symptoms in adolescence: evidence of a cognitive vulnerability-stress interaction|url=https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3530666/|journal=Journal of Adolescence|volume=36|issue=1|pages=201–208|doi=10.1016/j.adolescence.2012.11.001|issn=1095-9254|pmc=3530666|pmid=23186994}}&lt;/ref&gt;.  

Within the IMV model, we propose that OGM falls under '''Threat to Self Moderators (TSM)'''. TSMs spur entrapment (a perceived sense of being trapped by defeat/humilitation), which can lead to suicidal ideation depending on the effects of '''Motivational Moderators (MM).''' Positive factors, such as motivation to live, positive future thinking, and belongingess can offset the transition of entrapment → suicidal ideation, though negative factors, such as thwarted belongingness, very little social support, and perceived burdensomeness, may increase the chance of entrapment converting into suicidal ideation&lt;ref name=&quot;:1&quot; /&gt;.  

==OGM → Suicidal ideation (CORE)==
==Contradictions / Nuances==
==Conclusion==

== References ==
{{Reflist}}
[[Category:Atcovi/OGM &amp; Suicide Poster]]</text>
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      <comment>Created page with &quot;{{RoundBoxTop}} {{/Instructions}} {{RoundBoxBottom}} {{process|WV:CC}} {{Wikiversity organization}} __TOC__  == Nominations for [[Wikiversity:Bureaucratship|Bureaucratship]] ==  {{shortcut|WV:NFB|WV:NB|WV:CC/B|WV:CFC/B}} &lt;!-- {{Wikiversity:Candidates for Bureaucratship/Username}} --&gt; ''None at present.'' {{clear}}  == See also == *[[Wikiversity:Curators|Curators]] *[[Wikiversity:Custodianship|Custodianship]] *[[Wikiversity:Bureaucratship|Bureaucratship]] *Wikiversity:C...&quot;</comment>
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== Nominations for [[Wikiversity:Bureaucratship|Bureaucratship]] == 
{{shortcut|WV:NFB|WV:NB|WV:CC/B|WV:CFC/B}}
&lt;!-- {{Wikiversity:Candidates for Bureaucratship/Username}} --&gt;
''None at present.''
{{clear}}

== See also ==
*[[Wikiversity:Curators|Curators]]
*[[Wikiversity:Custodianship|Custodianship]]
*[[Wikiversity:Bureaucratship|Bureaucratship]]
*[[Wikiversity:Candidates for Bureaucratship/Archive of pending nominations|Candidates for Bureaucratship/Archive of pending nominations]]
*[[Wikiversity:Support staff]]

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== Nominations for [[Wikiversity:Bureaucratship|Bureaucratship]] == 
{{shortcut|WV:NFB|WV:NB|WV:CC/B|WV:CFC/B}}
&lt;!-- {{Wikiversity:Candidates for Bureaucratship/Username}} --&gt;
''None at present.''
{{clear}}

== See also ==
*[[Wikiversity:Curators|Curators]]
*[[Wikiversity:Custodianship|Custodianship]]
*[[Wikiversity:Bureaucratship|Bureaucratship]]
**[[Wikiversity:Candidates for Bureaucratship/Archive of pending nominations|Candidates for Bureaucratship/Archive of pending nominations]]
*[[Wikiversity:Support staff]]

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      <comment>Created page with &quot;==Instructions== ''Please add your request for [[Wikiversity:Curatorship|curatorship]] below. Include a short summary of &lt;u&gt;why&lt;/u&gt; you think you should be given the privileges and please refer to your &lt;u&gt;involvement&lt;/u&gt; in other [[Wikimedia]] projects. If you have [[w:Category:Wikipedia functionaries|sysop/bureaucrat]] status at a [[Wikiversity:Sister projects|sister project]], please indicate so as well.''  In a [[wiki]], trust arises from good editing of webpages and...&quot;</comment>
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      <comment>Created page with &quot;{{RoundBoxTop}} {{/Instructions}} {{RoundBoxBottom}} {{process|WV:CU}} {{Wikiversity organization}} __TOC__  == Nominations for [[Wikiversity:CheckUser policy|CheckUser]] == ;Notes: CheckUsers are required to follow Wikimedia Foundation's [[Meta:CheckUser policy|CheckUser policy]], including requirements for gaining access to the checkuser tools. # Candidates must be 18 years of age or older, of legal age in place of residence, be familiar with [[Meta:Privacy policy]], a...&quot;</comment>
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{{/Instructions}}
{{RoundBoxBottom}}
{{process|WV:CU}}
{{Wikiversity organization}}
__TOC__

== Nominations for [[Wikiversity:CheckUser policy|CheckUser]] ==
;Notes:
CheckUsers are required to follow Wikimedia Foundation's [[Meta:CheckUser policy|CheckUser policy]], including requirements for gaining access to the checkuser tools.
# Candidates must be 18 years of age or older, of legal age in place of residence, be familiar with [[Meta:Privacy policy]], and supply identification to the Wikimedia Foundation.
# Candidates must have '''70–80% agreed consensus or more and a minimum of 25–30 votes in support''' by local community members. Following this, [[Meta:Requests for permissions|permission must be requested]] from the Wikimedia Foundation. Projects must have 2 or more check users, or none at all.
''None at present.''
{{clear}}

== See also ==
*[[Wikiversity:Bureaucratship|Bureaucratship]]
*[[Wikiversity:Curators|Curators]]
*[[Wikiversity:Custodianship|Custodianship]]
*[[Wikiversity:Support staff]]

[[Category:Wikiversity checkusers]]</text>
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      <comment>/* Nominations for CheckUser */</comment>
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{{/Instructions}}
{{RoundBoxBottom}}
{{process|WV:CU}}
{{Wikiversity organization}}
__TOC__

== Nominations for CheckUser]] ==
;Notes:
[[Wikiversity:CheckUser policy|CheckUser]] are required to follow Wikimedia Foundation's [[Meta:CheckUser policy|CheckUser policy]], including requirements for gaining access to the checkuser tools.
# Candidates must be 18 years of age or older, of legal age in place of residence, be familiar with [[Meta:Privacy policy]], and supply identification to the Wikimedia Foundation.
# Candidates must have '''70–80% agreed consensus or more and a minimum of 25–30 votes in support''' by local community members. Following this, [[Meta:Requests for permissions|permission must be requested]] from the Wikimedia Foundation. Projects must have 2 or more check users, or none at all.
''None at present.''
{{clear}}

== See also ==
*[[Wikiversity:Bureaucratship|Bureaucratship]]
*[[Wikiversity:Curators|Curators]]
*[[Wikiversity:Custodianship|Custodianship]]
*[[Wikiversity:Support staff]]

[[Category:Wikiversity checkusers]]</text>
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      <comment>/* Nominations for CheckUser]] */</comment>
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{{/Instructions}}
{{RoundBoxBottom}}
{{process|WV:CU}}
{{Wikiversity organization}}
__TOC__

== Nominations for CheckUser]] ==
;Notes:
CheckUsers are required to follow Wikimedia Foundation's [[Meta:CheckUser policy|CheckUser policy]], including requirements for gaining access to the checkuser tools.
# Candidates must be 18 years of age or older, of legal age in place of residence, be familiar with [[Meta:Privacy policy]], and supply identification to the Wikimedia Foundation.
# Candidates must have '''70–80% agreed consensus or more and a minimum of 25–30 votes in support''' by local community members. Following this, [[Meta:Requests for permissions|permission must be requested]] from the Wikimedia Foundation. Projects must have 2 or more check users, or none at all.
''None at present.''
{{clear}}

== See also ==
*[[Wikiversity:Bureaucratship|Bureaucratship]]
*[[Wikiversity:Curators|Curators]]
*[[Wikiversity:Custodianship|Custodianship]]
*[[Wikiversity:Support staff]]

[[Category:Wikiversity checkusers]]</text>
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{{/Instructions}}
{{RoundBoxBottom}}
{{process|WV:CU}}

== Nominations for CheckUser ==
;Notes:
CheckUsers are required to follow Wikimedia Foundation's [[Meta:CheckUser policy|CheckUser policy]], including requirements for gaining access to the checkuser tools.
# Candidates must be 18 years of age or older, of legal age in place of residence, be familiar with [[Meta:Privacy policy]], and supply identification to the Wikimedia Foundation.
# Candidates must have '''70–80% agreed consensus or more and a minimum of 25–30 votes in support''' by local community members. Following this, [[Meta:Requests for permissions|permission must be requested]] from the Wikimedia Foundation. Projects must have 2 or more check users, or none at all.
''None at present.''
{{clear}}

== See also ==
{{Wikiversity organization}}
__TOC__
;Meta
* [[Meta:CheckUser policy|CheckUser policy]]
;Wikiversity
*[[Wikiversity:Bureaucratship|Bureaucratship]]
*[[Wikiversity:CheckUser policy|CheckUser policy]]
*[[Wikiversity:Curators|Curators]]
*[[Wikiversity:Custodianship|Custodianship]]
*[[Wikiversity:Support staff]]

[[Category:Wikiversity checkusers]]</text>
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  <page>
    <title>Wikiversity:Candidates for CheckUser/Instructions</title>
    <ns>4</ns>
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    <revision>
      <id>2808138</id>
      <timestamp>2026-05-10T04:14:19Z</timestamp>
      <contributor>
        <username>Jtneill</username>
        <id>10242</id>
      </contributor>
      <comment>Created page with &quot;==Instructions== ''Please add your request for [[Wikiversity:CheckUser policy|CheckUser rights]] below. Include a short summary of &lt;u&gt;why&lt;/u&gt; you think you should be given the privileges and please refer to your &lt;u&gt;involvement&lt;/u&gt; in other [[Wikimedia]] projects. If you have [[w:Category:Wikipedia functionaries|sysop/bureaucrat]] status at a [[Wikiversity:Sister projects|sister project]], please indicate so as well.''  Please place candidate requests or nominations on a...&quot;</comment>
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      <text bytes="578" sha1="sewom8wimzaotmny779hrcnf55gdav7" xml:space="preserve">==Instructions==
''Please add your request for [[Wikiversity:CheckUser policy|CheckUser rights]] below. Include a short summary of &lt;u&gt;why&lt;/u&gt; you think you should be given the privileges and please refer to your &lt;u&gt;involvement&lt;/u&gt; in other [[Wikimedia]] projects. If you have [[w:Category:Wikipedia functionaries|sysop/bureaucrat]] status at a [[Wikiversity:Sister projects|sister project]], please indicate so as well.''

Please place candidate requests or nominations on a ''subpage'' and ''[[Help:Transclusion|transclude]]'' it here.

[[Category:Nominations for CheckUser|*]]</text>
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  <page>
    <title>Category:Nominations for Bureaucratship</title>
    <ns>14</ns>
    <id>329543</id>
    <revision>
      <id>2808140</id>
      <timestamp>2026-05-10T04:16:58Z</timestamp>
      <contributor>
        <username>Jtneill</username>
        <id>10242</id>
      </contributor>
      <comment>Created page with &quot;[[Category:Wikiversity Bureaucrat]]&quot;</comment>
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      <sha1>nablmmle4jkfemf95zyeij1eyvjm3ph</sha1>
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    <revision>
      <id>2808141</id>
      <parentid>2808140</parentid>
      <timestamp>2026-05-10T04:18:04Z</timestamp>
      <contributor>
        <username>Jtneill</username>
        <id>10242</id>
      </contributor>
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      <text bytes="39" sha1="7h7v9plhxnj2exwrtl12cn7hqtt0ylm" xml:space="preserve">[[Category:Wikiversity bureaucratship]]</text>
      <sha1>7h7v9plhxnj2exwrtl12cn7hqtt0ylm</sha1>
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  </page>
  <page>
    <title>Wikiversity talk:Requests for Deletion/Archives</title>
    <ns>5</ns>
    <id>329544</id>
    <revision>
      <id>2808154</id>
      <timestamp>2026-05-10T08:46:42Z</timestamp>
      <contributor>
        <username>Juandev</username>
        <id>2651</id>
      </contributor>
      <comment>/* Chronological order */ new section</comment>
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      <text bytes="248" sha1="0fy4az86zanmdqb8jkz20s2am0xm1q6" xml:space="preserve">== Chronological order ==

What is the reason to sort them by the last edit? I think this add more workload for admins. [[User:Juandev|Juandev]] ([[User talk:Juandev|discuss]] • [[Special:Contributions/Juandev|contribs]]) 08:46, 10 May 2026 (UTC)</text>
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