Archives/2007-03-02
From LangCom
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This page is no longer maintained and may be outdated: moved to m:Special projects subcommittees/Languages/Archives/2007-03-02. |
Archived discussion |
This is a series of a email discussions concerning the Belorussian Wikipedia. The question was raised at the board meeting on 15 March 2007, where decision was postponed until the next week. |
Contents |
[edit] Discussions
[edit] Request for news
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Berto 'd Sera Hoi! I get requested new about the Byelorussian wiki. Do we have any? Bèrto ‘d Sèra -----Original Message----- Привет Хотелось бы узнать, в каком состоянии наш беларуский вопрос? Целесообразно ли дожидаться? :) Ю.Т. |
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Jesse Martin (Pathoschild) Hello, No news yet. We're just beginning pushing requests through the process, so news should not be much longer delayed. Yours cordially, |
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Berto 'd Sera Еще раз привет! Что касается самого вопроса о вашего вики, думаю, что скоро уже все будет, раз начинается создание новых вики уже по системе комитета. Board обсуждает вопрос о передачи вам домейна бе.вики согласно рекомендации комитета. Домейн для проекта Итер только что покуплено. Через пару дней уже что-то будет видно. Bèrto ‘d Sèra |
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Sabine Cretella Maybe a stupid question: but how do you push the requests through the process? I mean: it is not up to us to decide what happens, we can only say "this is how it should be handled" and this is exactly what we did up to now. We don't have a position that allows us for an official decision. Thanks, Sabine |
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Jesse Martin (Pathoschild) Hello Sabine, The language proposal policy<http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/WM:LPP> describes a streamlined process each request follows (proposal, discussion, test project, decision). The subcommittee approves or rejects a request based on the prerequisites and discussion. Our decision is not official; when a proposal is suitable, we forward a summary and recommendation to the board, and they make the final decision. Pushing requests through the process involves these steps: [a] ask for information needed to make a decision, if any is missing; [b] make a conditional decision and notify all interested users about the test project; [c] make a final decision and forward a summary and recommendation to the board. Yours cordially, |
[edit] Request for news 2
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Berto 'd Sera Hi Erik! I know we are all overburdened with lots of stuff (I'm writing this at 6.14 am myself and I haven't gone to sleep, yet). I would not bug you for just any issue, but I feel these guys do deserve a direct answer. They have been working for months in a weird situation, it's just human that they will want to know whether their work is worth doing or not. Thanks :) |
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Gerard Meijssen |
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Berto 'd Sera Thank God, finally something new on the western front :) I'll keep a bottle ready for the event :) Bèrto ‘d Sèra |
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Berto 'd Sera Hoi Yuri! I'll answer in English, because I'm copying the message to people who do not speak Russian. Moreover, sorry for being slow in answering, I actually moved this message in another folder upon receiving it and then forgot about it. For all who had not received the original msg from Yuri I'll leave the whole original text appended after my answer. > 1. On the naming of the "other" version: I'd again suggest something As you already know the Board just gave Brion official instructions to rename the domain according to LangCom recommendations. IMHO it would be fair if the new Byelorussian wiki had a pointer to the older version in its first page (and a NEUTRAL explanation of what's happening, PLEASE make DAMN SURE it's neutral), for at least a couple of months. We all need to put to sleep as many flames as possible right from the start. I'd also say we should welcome any possibility of getting more flavors of the Byelorussian linguistic entity under a standard. From a strictly "political" POV I'd rate it nice if the new bel.wiki and bel-x-old could be together in requesting such a valid ISO code (for linux, too). Being decent cooperative neighbors is always much better than wasting time on wars, believe me. A final decision about shutting down bel-x.wiki has not been made, yet; wmf will need time to put up a Meta ArbCom that will have decisional power on the issue. We all hope that there will be no decision to be made (because the two communities will have evolved into "friends") by the time Meta ArbCom is in place. > 2. There may once again emerge the "argument" of the "orthography We all welcome experiments and I'm 100% sure that there are valuable efforts and results in what the bel-x-old team is doing for the protection and restoration of ancient linguistic proximities; yet their linguistic flavor is NOT what an ISO 639-3 BEL code describes. Any converter is irrelevant in this issue. Bèrto ‘d Sèra -----Original Message----- Thanks, Berto! That bit of a help was Much Appreciated! Understandably, I won't forward such nebulous prognosis to the team yet, lest this proved some false hope. We already lost (though not irrevertably, I hope) some good editors because of this "weird" situation. Sorry for the lengthy fragment that follows, it could be relevant. 1. On the naming of the "other" version: I'd again suggest something like be-nn (from the abbreviated name of the cult newspaper) or be-alternative (which is how linux locale would *seemingly* be named -- http://sources.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=4020). 2. There may once again emerge the "argument" of the "orthography converter", which may "really work any time soon now" or "some day in future anyway". Now, *strictly technical* refutation on that is as follows: 2.1. Differences between the two versions of the Belarusian language are well beyond the "mere orthography", and *additionally* comprise different alphabets, significant differences in the morphology, strongly and intentionally diverged vocabulary (references could be provided but would be all in Belarusian and point to paper books, I'm afraid). 2.2. Given the language versions' differences, such converter would need to function on the level of the human translation, which is just that unrealistic. 2.2.1. Even on the "strictly orthographical" level, it would need to be fed with almost two quite voluminous lexicon sets (because of stress position, which tends to move in the Belarusian language, and determines some orthogr. aspects, nevertheless). Thanks again and feel free to forward my thanks (and other info, too) to the other folks involved. --regards |
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Berto 'd Sera Hoi! >On the pointer presence per se you have my personal assurance. In Perfect, that's the best model I can think of. >The issue of the neutrality of the explanation is harder, for while I I think you can simply quote the Board's decision and the LangCom recommendation that led to this move without any comment from your side. Maybe it can help quoting the Norwegian as an example of fair play behavior and asking everyone to work for a productive coexistence of both editions. ... I'm also told that there are little hopes for an ISO code to be issued (if any). Anyway, under the present conditions the very process of a joint request is more effective to keep the Byelorussian waters quiet than its final outcome. Eventually a Linux local coming out for the other Byelorussian flavor can help in setting at least a "de facto" standard. >I don't understand why the shutting down even enters into it. This Nobody says anyone from Belarus' ever requested any shutdown. This is but an internal wmf issue and has no relation whatsoever with any of your requests. We don't make any special policy for Belarus'; we simply deal with a set of tens of hundreds of linguistic ISO codes and need a sensible unified policy to manage them. >So, please, do not shut anything down. Perfect, then let the two Byelorussian communities get together and challenge the pro-shutdown point. Have my personal word that LangCom shall formally acknowledge any official be.wiki request not to shut down be-x-old.wiki if your community will issue such an official request (a joint official request from both editions is going to be acknowledged even quicker). Whatever will happen from here on must show a clear responsibility pattern. It's time we all get rid of conspiracy theories. Regarding MetArbCom future decisions on the issue, you guys are welcome to collect scientific material and prove your point in defending be-x-old. MetArbCom will have a lot of work within the post-communist space, as you can imagine, and it won't be set up tomorrow morning anyway. Given the usual wmf setup timings I would not expect any such decision to be taken before a year or so. Even if it happened any quicker than that if both editions issued a joint request to allow a time extension for the gathering of scientific evidence their request would definitely be heard. WMF Committees are not the Holy Inquisition or Gestapo squads; we simply analyze technical issues based on technical evidence and eventually make technical recommendations/decisions. We are NOT going to tolerate any repetition of the hysterics that often took place when purely emotional/political votes where cast, that's for sure, yet data and scientific evidence always were/are/will be welcome. One last practical recommendation for future proceedings: using terms like Narkomauka and Kommunjaki (or ethnical derogative terms) has had and will have the same disqualifying impact as writing a WW2 history with terms as Naztards (Nazi bastards), Axiots (Axis' idiots) and the like. Everyone is free to have whatever political beliefs he/she rates better but we are writing an encyclopedia here, not a satirical pamphlet. Let's make 200% sure we all choose a wording that is consistent with our job, please. Obviously a correct wording per se does not make an encyclopedia; articles also need clearly traceable sources and a basic equilibrium between conflicting POVs. AFAIK this never affected you as an individual, but we both know how this sadly IS a recurrent issue in most post-communist wikiquarrels. Be aware that together with linguistic issues and political flame wars the "this is not a wiki" argument (if proved) is going to be the shortest path to instant shutdown. > Please feel free to forward this if necessary etc. I just did it :) This mail is also public and can be forwarded as you please. We have no secrets :) God luck for your new wiki :) DISCLAIMER: what's written here represents my own personal POV only and can NOT be considered as an official WMF LangCom statement in ANY way. Bèrto ‘d Sèra -----Original Message----- Hello, On 23/03/07, Berto 'd Sera <albertoserra@ukr.net> wrote: ... On the pointer presence per se you have my personal assurance. In fact, I'd add it anyway, even if unprompted (sort of like the Norwegian wikis do it). The issue of the neutrality of the explanation is harder, for while I could claim I'm sort of the biggest expert on the issue in this (wikipedia) community, and while my account of the factual side of the issue was never challenged, and may be as close to neutral as it gets, still it seems to generate emotional, not rational, response, ... While it seems there exist such intentions, the actual cooperative output remains a thing to be seen, of course. ... > A final decision about shutting down bel-x.wiki has not been made, yet; I don't understand why the shutting down even enters into it. This never was asked for by "our" community, we just wanted the rightful code to point to the right community. So, please, do not shut anything down. > > 2. There may once again emerge the "argument" of the "orthography Please feel free to forward this if necessary etc. Best regards and thanks! |
[edit] Localization
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Berto 'd Sera Hi ! Will anyone point me to a contact in Betawiki? We need to put up an account for the new be localization team. They have a ready PO file to upload. Bèrto ‘d Sèra |
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Sabine Cretella .po file??? that does not work on betawiki .po is a bilingual container format used in Open Source localizations and does not easily allow for the creation of tms - well in the meantime there are some tools that help you to create a tmx out of a .po, but you still remain with that stupid format if any: it is needed in .php (that is the original source format they probably had before creating .po why does the OS world only know .po? it is the worst you can work with, why don't they come down to real translation standards? getting a huge hick-up ... ciao, sabine |
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Yury Tarasievich [third-party] We actually have a .php file, of the those kind the MediaWiki produces in PHP link in Special:Allmessages. Partially translated, my guess would be over 50%. Tested on local MediaWiki installation and seems to look and work okay. I seem to never get an email answer these days in predictable timeframe, so I'm now taking the liberty to send the inital throw-in of the php to *all* of you (50k in mime'd archive). *I apologize for that profoundly*, but it seems like a surest way to facilitate the ball rolling. So, no hard feelings because of that spammer-like behaviour, okay? Thanks! |