Archives/2006-12-30

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This page is no longer maintained and may be outdated: moved to m:Special projects subcommittees/Languages/Archives/2006-12-30.
Archived discussion
This is an IRC discussion regarding policy on 30 December 2006. The discussion reached no consensus, but GerardM stated that he would create a new policy draft for consideration.


time User comment
14:23:43 Pathoschild has joined #spc-lang-com
14:33:04 Pathoschild has invited timichal to #spc-lang-com.
14:33:12 timichal (n=zatopek@wikimedia/timichal) has joined #spc-lang-com
14:33:15 Pathoschild Hey.
14:33:20 timichal Hi!
14:34:00 Pathoschild Any progress on getting the subcommittee on its feet?
14:34:25 Pathoschild has invited GerardM- to #spc-lang-com.
14:35:05 timichal I stopped trying when Gerard said everything had been prepared... (with correct verb tenses, too)
14:39:32 GerardM- (n=GerardM@*) has joined #spc-lang-com
14:39:37 GerardM- <this user has not agreed to public archival.>
14:40:19 Pathoschild Hey.
14:40:24 GerardM- <this user has not agreed to public archival.>
14:40:35 GerardM- <this user has not agreed to public archival.>
14:40:38 Pathoschild Thanks. :)
14:41:00 Pathoschild Any progress on organizing the subcommittee to start processing requests?
14:42:02 GerardM- <this user has not agreed to public archival.>
14:42:38 GerardM- <this user has not agreed to public archival.>
14:43:19 timichal Well, I lost all hope a while ago
14:43:53 GerardM- <this user has not agreed to public archival.>
14:43:54 timichal I'd stick "yet an another dead commitee" on us
14:44:08 GerardM- <this user has not agreed to public archival.>
14:44:33 Pathoschild The easiest way to go about it would be scheduled meetings with an agenda; in our next meeting we'd discuss all the points and requests listed at [http://langcom.wikimedia.org/wiki/Agenda].
14:46:04 timichal anynoe has sent spcom the new language proposal?
14:46:15 timichal we were supposed to do it half a month ago
14:46:46 Pathoschild A policy?
14:47:18 GerardM- <this user has not agreed to public archival.>
14:47:18 timichal The policy, yes
14:47:51 GerardM- <this user has not agreed to public archival.>
14:48:00 timichal Yes, that's what you told Dbl
14:48:01 GerardM- <this user has not agreed to public archival.>
14:48:08 Pathoschild It's not a policy; it's a hybrid essay and set of suggestions.
14:48:36 timichal Pathoschild: well, I wanted to edit it a bit, but Gerard said it was okay as it was
14:48:50 GerardM- <this user has not agreed to public archival.>
14:49:14 timichal so I thought someone sent it to SPcom as requested, they looked at it, accepted and everyone would be happy
14:49:26 timichal (damn those tenses)
14:50:04 timichal GerardM-: why what?
14:50:16 GerardM- <this user has not agreed to public archival.>
14:51:02 timichal Ask Pathoschild, I'll better go to shower
14:51:04 Pathoschild GerardM-: For one, it's all from the point of view of one user. A final policy should not state "... I'd go further:", for example. Second, it's very retrospective; it discusses previous processes a lot, instead of laying out a new process. It discusses what we need for a new policy, not a policy: "We need different people, we need to discuss, we need a way to exchange opinions etc. Imagine what would happen if also GENNYSAR and E. abu Filumena had some private problems ..."
14:51:06 timichal brb
14:52:07 Pathoschild It basically lays out one user's opinion on what we need, what should be changed, what is good or bad, et cetera. It's not a policy. It doesn't describe any process, or explain how requests will be processed.
14:52:46 Pathoschild ...particularly since the whole thing is signed "--Sabine 07:13, 6 June 2006 (UTC)".
14:54:25 Pathoschild The current policy being used, on the other hand, very specifically lays out the requirements, the process, how requests will be processed and how long that will take, who will decide, how users can maximize chances of getting their requests accepted, et cetera.
14:56:15 GerardM- <this user has not agreed to public archival.>
14:56:35 Pathoschild You'd prefer we count votes?
14:57:06 GerardM- <this user has not agreed to public archival.>
14:57:39 Pathoschild You can certainly make any comment you want, but voting will be ignored. I think "It exists, see proof" should outweight thirty users saying "No it doesn't! ~~~~".
14:58:24 GerardM- <this user has not agreed to public archival.>
14:59:06 GerardM- <this user has not agreed to public archival.>
14:59:16 Pathoschild I don't see why you oppose m:Meta:Language proposal policy, then; you seem to be agreeing with it.
15:01:50 GerardM- <this user has not agreed to public archival.>
15:02:16 GerardM- <this user has not agreed to public archival.>
15:02:25 GerardM- <this user has not agreed to public archival.>
15:02:57 GerardM- <this user has not agreed to public archival.>
15:03:03 Pathoschild Yes, and any Meta admin can discuss and change the decision. Until the subcommittee is ready to do something, it's the fairest system.
15:03:39 Pathoschild The subcommittee is free to make all decisions itself, if it can do it before we're backlogged again.
15:04:06 GerardM- <this user has not agreed to public archival.>
15:04:34 Pathoschild So we should change what you don't like, or write a new one. Sabine's comment is not a policy, though.
15:09:31 GerardM- <this user has not agreed to public archival.>
15:09:55 Pathoschild It's easy to edit. :)
15:11:16 GerardM- <this user has not agreed to public archival.>
15:12:57 GerardM- <this user has not agreed to public archival.>
15:17:56 Pathoschild It's far too informal; a policy should not state a user's opinion and thoughts. It does not describe any requirements (except a few suggestions and thoughts interspersed through the text), it does not lay out a process, it does not say who decides and how decisions are taken, et cetera. There are plenty of ideas in the text; maybe we could incorporate them in the current or a new policy. That page itself is just an essay describing Sabine's thoughts and opinions of the current process and how it should be changed, though.
15:18:32 Pathoschild It's not something we can enforce or interpret, and it doesn't help users make requests.
15:18:55 GerardM- <this user has not agreed to public archival.>
15:20:43 Pathoschild I wasn't there during that discussion, I don't think Karen was either, and timichal doesn't seem to agree. That's at least a third of the subcommittee who disagree with it or didn't have a say. Is there a log of that discussion?
15:20:49 GerardM- <this user has not agreed to public archival.>
15:21:02 Pathoschild You can't act on it; there's nothing to act on.
15:21:06 GerardM- <this user has not agreed to public archival.>
15:21:28 GerardM- <this user has not agreed to public archival.>
15:22:15 Pathoschild Alright, please explain your understanding. How are requests made and processed? What are the requirements users should make sure their request meets? Who decides these requests?
15:23:59 GerardM- <this user has not agreed to public archival.>
15:26:02 GerardM- <this user has not agreed to public archival.>
15:26:16 Pathoschild I don't think Sabine's text says anything about that, unless I'm missing it. I'm looking at [http://langcom.wikimedia.org/wiki/Language_proposal_policy]; do you have another version?
15:27:23 GerardM- <this user has not agreed to public archival.>
15:27:57 GerardM- <this user has not agreed to public archival.>
15:29:49 GerardM- <this user has not agreed to public archival.>
15:34:01 GerardM- <this user has not agreed to public archival.>
15:34:47 GerardM- <this user has not agreed to public archival.>
15:34:49 timichal_ (n=zatopek@wikimedia/timichal) has joined #spc-lang-com
15:35:46 GerardM- <this user has not agreed to public archival.>
15:35:47 Pathoschild GerardM-: Yes, that all makes sense. Sabine's proposal makes no mention of any of that, though.
15:36:21 GerardM- <this user has not agreed to public archival.>
15:36:55 GerardM- <this user has not agreed to public archival.>
15:37:22 GerardM- <this user has not agreed to public archival.>
15:37:49 GerardM- <this user has not agreed to public archival.>
15:37:49 Pathoschild We may have been doing that, but it's not written in Sabine's proposed policy. I'd suggest incorporating the above into Meta:Language proposal policy or writing a new policy; but Sabine's proposal is not a policy.
15:38:02 Pathoschild m:Meta:Language proposal policy*
15:39:53 GerardM- <this user has not agreed to public archival.>
15:41:45 GerardM- <this user has not agreed to public archival.>
15:42:24 Pathoschild That's true, but I don't think that's relevant to the question of whether we should use Sabine's proposal, write a new policy, or change the current policy. The only user who edited Sabine's proposal is Sabine, and that proposal does not mention any of what you said above.
15:44:24 GerardM- <this user has not agreed to public archival.>
15:46:20 Pathoschild Alright. I oppose Sabine's proposal, you oppose mine; we've already covered both our objections. Would it be easier to change m:Meta:Language proposal policy to reflect what we want, or to change [http://langcom.wikimedia.org/wiki/Language_proposal_policy] to reflect what developed after June?
15:46:44 GerardM- <this user has not agreed to public archival.>
15:47:17 GerardM- <this user has not agreed to public archival.>
15:49:10 GerardM- <this user has not agreed to public archival.>
15:49:29 Pathoschild Alright. Do you have an idea when the subcommittee can start processing requests? There are twenty-one requests open, and we still don't have a subcommittee-approved policy.
15:49:41 Pathoschild A few. Wait a moment.
15:50:02 GerardM- <this user has not agreed to public archival.>
15:50:18 timichal has left irc.freenode.net (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
15:50:29 Pathoschild m:Requests for new languages/Wikipedia Set English seems like an obvious rejection.
15:51:21 Pathoschild Shall I redirect any objections of being arbitrary to you until we have a policy?
15:53:03 Pathoschild We may as well use the current policy until we have a subcommittee-approved policy. It's been accepted by the community and implemented for a while now.
15:53:29 timichal_ accepted by the community?
15:54:20 timichal_ otoh, bad policy > no policy (and it's not that bad =)
15:54:33 GerardM- <this user has not agreed to public archival.>
15:54:42 Pathoschild Good policy > no policy, if it's not too bad. :)
15:55:43 GerardM- <this user has not agreed to public archival.>
15:55:54 Pathoschild GerardM-: ok.
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