Wikipedia talk:Simple talk/Archive October 2003

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[edit] 2003/10/23

Hi. I made a new page called TalkTalkTalk. I made it because I don't know which pages are the "right" pages to talk about many things, so I'm just going to copy things and talk about them here. I hope this doesn't cause any problems for anybody -- RJ208104.user.veloxzone.com.br

Is this sort of a place for general discussions that are not specific to articles? Sort of like the mailing list? If so, I think that's probably a good idea. Angela
Yes, good idea. We might want to archive it every day to TalkTalkTalk/031023 or something, so it's easy to find the TTT from a given day.
I don't know if it'll need doing daily but we can see - if it reaches 32kb limits each day then fair enough. Angela
If you wait for it to hit 32kb, then, you will be archiving at some time other than the day boundary. This is fine if you still make the archive day by day, and perhaps redirect multiple days to one page?
Or maybe we could have a mailing list! Angela


Now you are trolling.  ;-) It's quite obvious that the mailing list approach divides "Who edits" from "who decides", since two different technologies and protocols are used. Many of the best contributors at the Wikipedias do not participate on mailing lists as a matter of principle, and resent decisions made in another medium being applied here when a perfectly good alternative way (like this TalkTalkTalk page) can exist.
Many, like the Cunctator, have said that a mailing list only serves a GodKing, and doesn't serve the actual users, nor the contributors who care most about the users. I tend to agree.
mailing lists should be ignored. they divide contributors from deciders, encourage cabals, and have generally failed as a way to govern
Let's give RJxxx.br 's idea a chance!

Everybody can use this page. If you copy something here, please say where it came from.


If you think that something "should" be on another page, please make a link to that page.

      • DON'T take things off of this page -- the idea is that things should be easy to find here. *** -- -- RJ208104.user.veloxzone.
But if they're ABOUT other things, they need to be in those TALK pages, not here. Otherwise people concerned with those things can't find them. They are only "easy to find here" for the day they appear here, before the talk gets archived.

Example:

Extended discussion of whether titles can be in Simple English was moved to Simple English Staging/Talk. It came originally from Computer/Talk.

The point:

"We can't restrict titles to only being in Simple English - that would make it impossible to call things by the same names here as they are called in Full English." (hlfx47-147.ns.sympatico.ca)

Good point! I definitely agree with this! -- RJ208104.user.veloxzone.com.br

More at Simple English Staging/Talk.

How's that? We indicate where it's from, and where more of it is discussed.

Question inspired by recent edits to Cabal

For hlfx47-147.ns.sympatico.ca -- Please tell me: Why do you use so many words and phrases (and even make pages about things!) that aren't Basic English, probably aren't any kind of Simple English, and aren't even common in Full English? Surely these things aren't the most important for Simple English Users to read about here?? -- RJ208104.user.veloxzone.com.br

I am trying to avoid assuming anything about Simple English Users other than what is written down as a guess about them now. If you want to change my assumptions, then just edit that article, adding better statistics on non-English people.
The Simple English Reading and Simple English Staging strategy are well enough explained. They imply trying to do the MOST COMPLEX ARTICLES first, to figure out where the boundary between Full English and Simple English are. When it's clear what goes to Full and what stays at Simple, and each has ended up in its right place, and we have a good way to know when to link BETWEEN them, the job here will be much clearer to all of us. It will be to explain all the simple topics that are mentioned and required to understand those "boundary" topics.
Also, MOST IMPORTANT, the concepts that are required for Simple English Wikipedia governance must at least be ATTEMPTED in something as close to Simple as we can manage, right now, so that people who speak English as a second language can participate in working out rules. That means often explaining ideas to them like cabal, God's eye view, systemic bias, and of course neutral point of view. We have no choice but to explain these in SOME way. So better to do it in an official article we can subject to Simple English Editor's discipline, rather than one user at a time in talk or something.
This idea, that everything that is important to govern something must be explained and discussed WITHIN THE SAME RULES as that thing applies to things outside itself, is reflexivity. That is not a Simple English word, no, but if you don't learn that word, you will think a lot of arbitrary decisions are being made and forced on you when in fact it is an attempt to keep other kinds of arbitrary decisions (like a cabal) out of the picture, so the project runs itself better. And that is fairer to all. This TalkTalkTalk page is an example - it lets the people here use the same methods to debate the SEW, as they are using to write it. That is reflexivity. Now that you know that word, you can find it on the net and read about it, and come back and challenge what I say about it. So you have more power this way than if I avoid that complex word.

(Going offline now -- probably until tomorrow. Ciao. -- RJ208104.user.veloxzone.com.br )

ok, good work today, especially getting this page going.

No TalkTalkTalk on 2003/10/24 so this archive is also the TalkTalkTalk/to_031024

[edit] Next archive is TalkTalkTalk/to_031025

babyboi says what's up and wat iz thiz 4?