Talk:Abortion
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[edit] James Kopp
"Mr Kopp waited outside Dr Slepian's home with a rifle. He shot Dr Slepian in the back through a window in his home. Dr Slepian, his wife, and their four children had just come home from Synagogue (Jewish church) when it happened. His wife and his son Andrew were standing in the room with him when he was shot. "
This level of detail is not needed here. It can be placed in an article about James Kopp. Articles do not have to be all-inclusive when the information could stand on its own. Moving to James Kopp article. BallSack 00:05, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
very christianocentric: "Synagogue (Jewish church)". why don't we find "church (christian moque)". just because it's in english doen't mean the target audience is necessarily overwhelmingly christian;--Neal 08:42, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Emotional Problems
I separated the two sections about miscarriages and emotional problems - there is no question that there are emotional problems after a miscarriage.
- That statement is not NPOV. Moreover, it is not supported. If the former surgeon general of the US (who was not pro-choice) can review 250 articles from the medical literature and state that there is no convincing evidince either way, I would say that there IS a question whether there are emotional problems after abortion. In addition, simply deleting the other POV (that there is no evidince of emotional problems after miscarriage) and leaving your own POV that there definitely is almost defines the term non-NPOV.
- The studies that link emotional problems with abortion generally do not control for confounding factors. For example, women who have abortions are more likely to be survivors of childhood abuse, poor, and victims of sexual assault. If you control for these confounding factors, the association disappears. Though if you would like to cite a source that definitively states that there is no question, that is different.
- Also, while I actually originally wrote that myself, I did a little more research about the effects of induced abortion on subsequent ability to become and remain pregnant. Again, the jury is still out. So that comment is again removed. If you would like to add something else that qualifies the statement that there is no definitive evidence either way then we can have that. However, a statement that simply says it does cause problems is not accurate.
- The move of the information about Kopp is fine.-NickGorton 03:14, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
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- Apparently you didn't actually read my edit, or the supporting reference. BallSack 03:20, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
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- Actually I was adding this and there was an edit conflict. Also, the part about spontaneous MC can be re-added, but as it was, it was smack in the middle of a section about induced abortions, and gives the suggestion to a non-careful reader that this is about induced abortions. It needs to be in a different section. And you messed up the references 5->6, and 6->5. If you haven't fixed it by the time I get back from work, I will do so.-NickGorton 03:22, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
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- If you will pay close attention, you will see that "Risks and Complications" is it's own section header, that it specifically has separate paragraphs for miscarraiges and induced abortions, and that clicking the hyperlink for the source does indeed go to the proper source. However I will be happy to fix the [i]cosmetic error[/i] of reference five and six. BallSack 03:28, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
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- In fact, when you cite references in the future do not put them number for them in the name of the tag. Wiki automatically orders them. When you name a reference, give the tag the name of the reference. This will avoid you causing such a cosmetic error when the article is modified or rearranged. Thank you. BallSack 03:31, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
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- Sorry, I forgot to thank you for giving me permission to edit your article. Sincere thanks, sir! BallSack 03:37, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
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[edit] Why are a bunch of terms defined?
Why are a bunch of terms defined in parentheses? Wikipedia is not a dictionary, even the Simple English one. It's especially weird to define words that are linked to. They definitely need to be removed. -70.130.139.249 22:07, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Crossing the line from "simple English" to "incorrect English"
I believe that this article does so at its very beginning. I understand the difficulty of picking very simple, clear English words for such a complicated and controversial topic, but it's nonetheless unacceptable to begin an article like this with something like "Abortion is when a pregnancy is ended early and the baby dies.", for the simple reason that the word baby, in this context, refers only to human offspring that have been born, even if the equivalent of baby in other languages does not. An unborn human young is called a fetus starting in the eighth week and ending when it is born, after which it is a baby, or infant. Before being a fetus, it is an embryo. To call a fetus a "baby", though I'm certain it was solely done in this case due to Simple-Wiki's preference for using very simple vocabulary, is POVed and potentially offensive—not to mention inaccurate, as inaccurate as calling a sperm, a fertilized egg, or an embryo a "baby". This has nothing to do with the controversy surrounding abortion, it only has to do with using English words correctly so as to avoid confusion; if footnotes or parenthetical statements are needed to explain this within the article, then so be it, but the words shouldn't be misused for the sake of clarity and simplicity, as this will only lead to the opposite result: unnecessary confusion and complications. -Silence 05:42, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
- Personally, I do not see where the offence lies in calling an unborn child a baby. -updated paragraph. Eptalon 09:41, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
- I was not personally offended, but I know many people who would be. More important than avoiding offense is avoiding inaccuracy, though. -Silence 01:44, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
- it isn't a case of being offended or not, it's a case of ideological bias. the correct and neutral term is "f(o)etus"--Neal 08:44, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
- I was not personally offended, but I know many people who would be. More important than avoiding offense is avoiding inaccuracy, though. -Silence 01:44, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
The correct explanation is "unborn child". If that is offensive to some, I would submit that they only find it offensive because it offeends their consciences, because they don't like to think of it as a stage in human life being put to death, so they pick these "politically correct" terms designed to make it sound more soothing totheir consciences... But that doesn't change what it is - an unborn child, no matter what kind of words or spin they use to brainwash themselves that it is something else, that's still what it is, an unborn child being put to death. The fundamental thing they fail to realize is that you can't change the truth with words, because the truth will always continue to be the truth, no matter how many words contrary to truth that they multiply. Blockinblox 16:06, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
- Acutally, fetus is the accepted scientific term. Whether it's a child is an ideological spin--the term fetus does not make a value judgement (for all we know a fetus is an unborn child too) but calling them unborn children is POV, whether it's true or not. The article should say that some people believe a fetus is an unborn child, while others don't. The Ungovernable Force 05:34, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
If they don't believe the fetus is an unborn child, they are in serious denial...! Again, I submit that this is because a guilty conscience will come up with all kinds of bizarre rationalizations to get itself off the hook... Blockinblox 14:09, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
- Blockinblox, you're the one who's in serious denial here. And you use the word "truth" too much to be taken seriously.
- No I'm not... That's exactly what a fetus is, an unborn baby... What does the phrase 'in denial' mean to you? Blockinblox 03:11, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
It means to be swimming near to Cairo "in de Nile":}
- Perhaps fetus is the accepted scientific term, it certainly is not the neutral term. In reality it is just a euphemism for "unborn child". To some, especially those who have killed "fetus's", it very likely is offensive to call the thing what it really is, a pre-born baby. To me, and a fair amount of Americans it is very offensive that we can't call things what they are. I don't think you can use the argument that it is offensive in this debate. Whatever the case, euphemism's are not simple English--and thus should not be used. unborn baby, unborn human being (perhaps not person yet), are words that are simple, and are true--and shouldn't be offensive. Fetus is not a simple English Word. . .it simply doesn't fit the ideology of this Wikipedia.--Laura1978 01:36, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Simple vs. just plain wrong, continued
I've started working on this article, not to push a particular POV, but because so much of the information contained in it is just plain wrong (Chromosomal birth defects are "diseases"? Caused by what germ, pray tell?). The whole point of SEW is to create entries using simple language -- not by substituting misinformation, becoming unencyclopedic, or mangling the English language. Contrary to what appears to be common belief here, the standard for English usage should be HIGHER on SEW than on EN Wikipedia, because the audience may not be able to read past poor grammar. OhSusanne 05:00, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
Just one more thing -- less v. fewer. "Less" is the word used when there is a smaller amount of something -- milk, gasoline, helium, space, risk. "Fewer" is the word used when there is a smaller number of discrete things -- women, complications, abortions, cars, countries. Neither "less" nor "few" are in the BE850, so there's no more complexity in using them correctly.OhSusanne 05:08, 22 February 2007 (UTC)