User talk:Calicchiulusiculu

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[cancia] Sarvamientu dâ lingua siciliana

Carìssimu, grazzî pû tò missaggiu ntirissanti. Ora ora vogghiu scrìviri quarchi artìculu 'n sicilianu pi crìsciri n'anticchiedda sta Wikipedìa siciliana, quinni t'arrispunnu quannu haiu cchiù tempu (forsi dumani) pi discùrriri (cu tìa e l'àutri cullabburatura) ntô Wikipedia:Circulu. Salutamu! Turiddu

[cancia] Wikipedia:Circulu

Ciau Calicchiu - scrìviri ntô Cìrculu si fa pû stissu modu di comu si scrivi nta qualunchi pàggina - tutti li pàggini funziònanu pû stissu modu e hannu tutti quanti lu stissu sistema.

P'accuminzari nu discursu, vai â fini dâ pàggina e scrivi quarchi cosa d'accussì:

== Pruposta ==

Sta palora addiventa lu tìtulu dû discursu, accumenza a scrìviri lu tò missaggiu e poi l'àutri cci ponnu agghiùnciri li soi idei.

Ovviamenti ju canusciu lu libbru di Bonner e sacciu ca tanti dî palori ca usi nun si cci tròvanu ddocu. Canusciu sulu una pirsuna ca usa sti tipi di palori. A mia nun fa nenti ca ni voi jùnciri, anzi mi piacissi. Ma siddu ni canuscemu, prifirisciu ca mi fai sapiri. Salutamu e a prestu! πίππύ δ'Ω∑ - (waarom? jus'b'coz!) 21:22, 14 Sittèmmiru 2006 (UTC)

  • Michè - mi facisti rìdiri! Wikipedia è cumpritamenti aperta e lìbbira - ccà poi fari zoccu voi (ntra certi lìmmiti) - ma ti dugnu sti cunzigghi (d'un amicu a n'àutru):
    1. Prova a nzignariti tutti li strummenta, cchiù ca sai, cchiù fàcili addiventa cuntribbuìricci.
    2. Leggi tutti ddi pàggini ccasupra chi ti lassai aeri - e li poi usari comu na basa pî toi pruposti ntô Cìrculu.
    3. Comu vidi, nn'avemu quasi 6.000 artìculi - rapprisenta nu granni traguardu, ricurdànnuni ca cci avemu junciutu senza sciarrari tra nuiàtri. Pinzai sempri ca la cosa cchiù mpurtanti era scrìviri pi sicilianu - menu discursi di chissu o l'àutru - megghiu è pi tutti! Vulemu sintiri dî toi pruposti, ma ô stissu tempu hai a èssiri sicuru ca teni tutti li rifirimenti boni. Stamu scrivennu n'enciclopedìa - dunca pruvamu a usari la lingua scritta (littiraria), avemu nu scopu chiutostu acadèmicu e ntâ maggiuranza di casi, circamu a usari li formi cchiù pan-siciliani.
Salutamu! πίππύ δ'Ω∑ - (waarom? jus'b'coz!) 02:28, 15 Sittèmmiru 2006 (UTC) ps ti giuru - sugnu cuntintuni ca n'attruvasti!

[cancia] Some additional points

Michè - just to help you out a bit more I thought I would knock up these additional points, with relevant links where necessary:

  1. See this numbered list, you create it by using the hash; ## indents the numbering, ### indents more. To indent using bullets, you can use *, **, *** etc. To indent without any symbol, use :  ::  ::: etc.
  2. You'll note that I sign my name off, to that, use the button above, 2nd from the right, with the scarabbocchiu.
  3. You asked about translations. You will note that most articles have links to the same article in other languages, you'll see that in the left hand column. To create a link to another language, you write, for example: [[en:Australian rules football]] at the bottom of the article - this will provide the link to the English version of that particular article which will sit in the left hand column. See Football australianu. To write the link so that it appears in the actual article, you would write: [[:en:Australian rules football]] which would show up so: en:Australian rules football.
  4. Any red link you see in any article represents an empty page, and can be used to actually start an article. So if you saw a red link like Chicago blues, if you clicked it, it would take you to an empty page and you could simply start writing an article. There are lots of other little tricks of the trade that you will pick up in time, as well as some strict formatting rules (because we are part of an international project). So this article would start like this (for example): Chicago blues is a form of blues music originating in Chicago... - in edit mode it looks like this: '''Chicago blues''' is a form of [[blues]] music originating in [[Chicago]] . ''' ? ''' is used to make a word or group of words bold. '' ? '' is used to make a word or group appear in italics. [[ ? ]] is used to create a link to another article in Wikipedia. As you would have noted, ultimately all the articles are connected with many links. If you want to have the link to a specific article but with a different word or group of words to fit into the article, you can do something like this: the American city of Chicago which looks like this in edit mode: [[Chicago|the American city of Chicago]]. The bottom of every article carries at least one subject category. In the case of the Blues it's probably music, and looks like this in edit mode: [[Category:Mùsica]].
  5. You will note that every page has the exact same tabs above it: pàggina (or user page in case of our own page); discussioni (the talk page); cancia (how to get into edit mode of either of the two pages just mentioned, i.e. how to add to a page or edit it); storia (shows the history of changes made to a page - we know what everyone does!).
  6. With talk pages, our basic rule is each to their own. This is where people discuss the article, its contents, use of language, etc. and we take the view that in the talk pages people should be free to write in their own parrata. So Peppi writes in his distinctive south-eastern parrata, and I will use ju, ranni and rittu because they are the parrata I am used to and what I grew up with and what I'm most comfortable using when I talk (rare that it is). But once we write the article proper, we follow our standard, meaning that I must use granni and drittu, etc.
  7. This takes me to the next important point that I touched on earlier - it's incredible that we have been able to reach almost 6,000 articles in an extremely calm atmosphere of cooperation and collaboration. Let's be honest - it's a miracle! But Wikipedia can only work that way, it's the sort of project that will fall apart overnight if that equilibrium was upset in any way. And in our context it's a tough thing to maintain, to give you some examples. We have Sicilians coming here who will criticise us a. because we dare attempt to lift u dialettu to such lofty heights as an encyclopedia; or b. that we use something that doesn't accord with their own parrata; or c. that we use something that is quite different to Regional Italian - which many think is Sicilian. So you can see how tough it is to walk through this minefield - but we are managing it! I guess our guiding principle is that the middle road is best, i.e. we prefer pan-sicilian forms, but occasionally we might allow a local form to sneak by, we prefer to stick true to true Sicilian forms but occasionally accept that an Italianism is necessary. Ultimately we want something that is identifiably and recognisably Sicilian but that won't put off Sicilians expecting to see just their parrata or something a little more Italian - I think we are getting there.
  8. The last point - we see this as an encyclopedia and we are all firmly of the view that Sicilian can be used to write an encyclopedia. I'm sure you understand what a bold statement that represents and what a change in perception that can foster. In achieving that, we all hold firm to the view that whatever forms and linguistic principles we apply, they must all be capable of being supported by Sicilian literature or by the most important Sicilian reference works. We see that as important so that when someone comes along and asks: how can you justify using Giugnettu rather than a more modern form (i.e. an Italian form) we can point to various important references (the very best of the best) and say: this is why! To maintain credibility and broad acceptance - we see that as a very important aspect of this project. I should add - don't worry about a standard Sicilian - the Sicilian Wikipedia is easily bigger than anything else on the internet that purports to carry Sicilian writing - my friend - you are looking at the formation of the standard here and now! I urge you to jump on board immediately - by the time we make it to 10,000 articles (representing more than 10 million words) absolutely no one will be in a position to question that. Furthermore - Wikipedia is now recognised internationally as perhaps the best online reference site - and we are part of that! Don't underestimate its importance - it will only get bigger and bigger - and we are going to be swept along in that tidal wave.
  9. There's heaps more to learn - but don't worry about that for the moment - just start writing - to begin with - give us your critique of our standard. Ultimately, we need to be able to defend what we use to the world - so I personally have no problem with you challenging us in that respect.

Salutamu! πίππύ δ'Ω∑ - (waarom? jus'b'coz!) 04:48, 15 Sittèmmiru 2006 (UTC) Sicilian ps by the way - if you want to change your user name, simply start another one - that's fine - it's best you pick what you are most comfortable with if you are here for the long haul - on the other hand - you can stick with what you've used - it's ok either way!

  • Michè - in case you haven't come across it yet - have a look at this comparison we did of about 6 references:

Paraguni dî nostri rifirimenti - you'll find it of interest. It also underscores just how difficult this whole caper is. Don't be put off by any responses you get back, at the same time, please understand that at least 4 of us have put in a full 2 years into getting where we are, and we have tried really hard to take into account a whole lot of viewpoints. Also Peppi and Giusi are native speakers, living in Sicily or schooled there, and without them we would have a lot less credibility (and they have an excellent grasp of a number of languages). They are intelligent people and a real pleasure to work with. Ultimately, the Sicilian people have to accept this as their online encyclopedia - will they do that? It's a very big call - they are all now so italianised - this whole exercise is full of potential pitfalls - but if we don't have that objective - what are we in it for? However, we often get really good responses from Sicilians who simply can't believe that Sicilian can be used for this sort of exercise. We get a lot of negative responses too, mainly because they accuse us of using archaic forms or because it simply differs too much from their parrata. As you can see - keeping everyone happy is impossible! My advice is to just simply write, let the orthography fall out naturally, help us get to 10,000 articles - that's the very biggest statement you could ever make. Salutamu. πίππύ δ'Ω∑ - (waarom? jus'b'coz!) 05:11, 19 Sittèmmiru 2006 (UTC)


[cancia] E-mail address

Michè - I just wanted to say that it's quite safe to record your e-mail address in the preferences above. No one can actually see your address, but someone is able to still send you an e-mail. Occasionally people do so for a variety of reasons, so you might find that useful. πίππύ δ'Ω∑ - (waarom? jus'b'coz!) 02:54, 25 Sittèmmiru 2006 (UTC)

[cancia] Block

Are you actually blocked? You're probably ok if you continue under your user name. πίππύ δ'Ω∑ - (waarom? jus'b'coz!) 13:34, 14 Uttùviru 2006 (UTC)

[cancia] Very big message

Michè - that's a pretty big message to respond to! Before I go into detail, allow me to provide a general philosophy that has served us well to date, that of taking the middle road as far as is practicable. This means balancing ancient and modern forms, written and spoken forms, pan-Sicilian and provincial forms. And through that balancing act, I can't help thinking that we have formulated a reasonable orthography - I'm not saying the best possible - but one which allows us to move forward for our purposes. And to have been able to reach that point with two intelligent native Sicilians (Giusi and Peppi) is a huge achievement - you must know that with your experience of the Linguasiciliana forum. That's just a general opening comment, allow me to deal with each of your points in turn (as many as I can before my wife tells me off for wasting too much time!):

  1. You are incorrect in saying that "colour" and "legalise" are not part of standard English - they are standard in both British and Australian English - and that underscores the point that it is possible to have two acceptable forms in a written language (and if we thought hard and long enough, we could come up with hundreds of examples). When we talk of American, British and Australian English - we are still talking about the same language. You will find all these forms in the English Wikipedia, and apart from a few sticklers, it is widely accepted.
  2. This is a minor point, but it illustrates a similar point from a different perspective. Words like nta/nna/nni can all be used almost as exact alternatives. I believe that is acceptable - as Bonner says in his grammar - their use appears to hang more on the sound relative to the words around it than to any subtle difference in meaning. Any Sicilian exposed to the spoken language knows this to be true intuitively (even I do) - I would not wish to destroy this unique aspect of the language. The same also goes for nu and un. I have to go now. πίππύ δ'Ω∑ - (waarom? jus'b'coz!) 23:19, 14 Uttùviru 2006 (UTC) - ok I have another 5 minutes...I stress again that others didn't know it was you, we all have the habit now of coming down heavy on anonymous users. That's because apart from their propensity for out and out vandalism, even well meaning ones only drop by for 5 minutes - we aren't going to let someone run rampant for 5 mintues never to be seen again. If you do it under your username, we will know it's you (of course, I always know it's you!)
  3. Regarding our ultimate objectives, and tieing that in with language commissions etc. - I think we are only aiming at creating the best possible encyclopedia written in the best Sicilian prose we can muster - and that's big enough and time consuming enough for all of us! Now if spin offs come from that, that's fine, we'd be pleased. You correctly point out that there has always existed a limited Sicilian literature, but mostly poetry and drama. The problem with such categories of literature is that it is difficult for a standard to emerge from precisely because of "poetic license" or because, in the case of drama, the written word often mimicks the spoken word. The thing about Wikipedia is that we are aiming at an altogether different type of prose, one perhaps never attempted, but which is likely to open up the use of a complete vocabulary never ever used before. This is very ambitious, but extremely important if a language is to be taken seriously. The main difficulty is that as soon as we start coming across academic-type words, what should we do? An example is biology. Do we completely sicilianise it: "biuluggìa", which is one point of view, do we go with the out and out Italian form, "biologia", or do we take each word on its merits? We have decided on the latter - so not hard and fast rules, we look at the word, whether it has been used before in Sicilian, whether constituent parts have been used (e.g. prefixes and suffixes), what the etymology of the word is, and what the international community does. In some cases the choice is straightforward - there is an obvious Sicilian form, e.g. pulìtica, liggi, storia, riliggiuni, ecc. In other cases there is an obvious form because the whole international community does the same thing, e.g. internet, mùsica rock/jazz/rap, and all the taxonomic classifications of plants and animals are in latin - so that's straightforward. Now going back to biology, it occurred to me that the whole international community used the prefix bio- (from the Greek bios). So it seemed to me that it was proper to keep this prefix. But each language had their own suffix, so it seemed proper to use a purely Sicilian suffix (rather than just take the Italian version). -luggìa can be justified on at least two counts: the doubling of the soft "g" is typically Sicilian, and also the fact that Piccittu already carries the related word: "lòggicu", so the mutation to -luggìa is a straigtforward and logical one (pardon the pun). I'll give you two other examples off the top of the head (but as you can imagine, this process needs to gone through a thousand times - and I am not saying it is always clear cut). With "mituluggìa", the Sicilian word "mitu", already existed - so that was always going to be preferred over "mitoluggìa" - we are simply going with a known Sicilian word to create the bigger word, rather than worrying too much about the etymology of the particular prefix. Then in "taxonomy", there were a number of options, and I was swayed by the following: a) the etymology is Greek tassein (or something similar, I can't quite remember off the top of my head, b) all relevant languages went with something like taxo or tasso, except for Frensh which has taxinomie. Putting that together, that made think that it was acceptable for the Sicilian to go with tassinumìa rather than the more Italian tassonumìa. It's all a bit grey, but I don't believe it is correct to simply use the accented e/o rule in all cases, because a. there are many exceptions to the rule that occur naturally in Sicilian, and b. it is not widely applicable in the modern age, especially with preponderance of so many accepted international terms. I have to go again - all this is very rushed and has not been proofread - read accordingly! πίππύ δ'Ω∑ - (waarom? jus'b'coz!) 00:51, 15 Uttùviru 2006 (UTC)
  4. Following on from the last point - we sometimes run into similar difficulties when considering the name of someone famous - should we always Sicilianise, or look at each one on a case by cases basis. We've gone with the latter, and the more you write articles and interact with all the other language encyclopedias, the more you see merit in that idea. Sometimes all the language use the same name, e.g. John Lennon, other times they have their own version, e.g. Cristopher Columbus - that seems a logical way to procede, we simply fit in with what the rest of the world does, sometimes use the original, other times use the Sicilian form. When it comes to Italian and even Sicilian names, it is a difficult choice. For older names, we generally use Sicilian forms, for more modern names, it's hard to know. For some Italian names, it could well be that they have only ever been known by that form even by Sicilians, and that goes for famous Sicilians - so should we change their name for an encyclopedia entry? A similar process has to be gone through for cumuna e pruvinci. I look at it this way - we try and find the local version of all Sicilian, south Calabrian and south Apulian towns and provinces (even using their parrata if necessary). For the rest of Italy, we'll use the Sicilian form if one exists, or otherwise simply use the official Italian version - this will usually be so for the cumuna. Similiar logic will prevail for all other geographic names throughout the world - it can't be a hard and fast rule - it has to all be worked out on a case by case basis. Whenever I find a name of a country, city, plant or animal anywhere in the Sicilian literature - I note it for future use - I can't see another way round it - I don't with to be accused of making up names. I think one you may have commented on the use of the name Ninu Martogliu - now I too know that -gli- is rare in Sicilian (but certainly known in some parrati and even some pan-Sicilian words) - but do we know for sure that he has ever been referred to as Ninu Martogghiu? I really don't know. πίππύ δ'Ω∑ - (waarom? jus'b'coz!) 01:04, 15 Uttùviru 2006 (UTC)
  5. It is a fair point that you make about the quantity - that alone won't guarantee anything (although, if you end up with 10,000 articles utilising over 10 million words covering the full array of topics all in a worthy form of Sicilian prose - that can certainly count for a lot). There are two extreme examples I'd like to point you to. Firstly, it is true that Sardinian has its language academy, and official recognition and the rest of it, and yet its wikipedia is older than the Sicilian one and has been stuck on a couple of hundred articles, precisely because there is so much disagreement on the standard. At the other end of the spectrum, Neapolitan has over 12,000 articles, but they were all created by bots translating all the Italian articles on the Italian comuni. We clearly do not want to end up at either end - I think we've taken a reasonable route. πίππύ δ'Ω∑ - (waarom? jus'b'coz!) 01:13, 15 Uttùviru 2006 (UTC)
  6. It's a fair point you make about whether both palora and parola will survive once a official recognition took hold. Scumettu ca you might be disappointed about what such an Academy would choose. My guess is that they would go with all modern forms - right across the board. Surely you are able to see that? It is for this reason, that you should give us a bit more credit - we have not only allowed many old forms such as palora, we have even mandated extremely old forms such as giugnettu. This is why sometimes I don't understand why you are so willing to walk away from Piccittu - it is precisely his work that will allow us to stand up to "over-modernising" Sicilian. Most Sicilians would already see all of Piccittu as archaic. So we shouldn't be walking away from him, we should be embracing him in the hope that when such an Academy is created - a bit of Piccittu's legacy will remain. Otherwise, I really do fear what such an Academy will come up with - and if I fear - you should really fear it! So you see where I am coming from? Walking the tight rope of modern and old Sicilian will allow us to save a fair bit of "real" Sicilian merely through its extensive use in lots of articles. But dumping modern Sicilian entirely, and writing somehting unrecognisable to the majority of Sicilians would not serve your purpose at all. πίππύ δ'Ω∑ - (waarom? jus'b'coz!) 01:22, 15 Uttùviru 2006 (UTC)
  7. Regarding the use of the circumflex, perhaps I understood this incorrectly, but I thought it referred to the obvious truncation of a word, especially in the spoken language, e.g. avemu a becoming âmu a (which truncates even further in the spoken language), etc. With rèula, I simply now see that as an acceptable form of règula. So Piccittu will show both rèula and liami as accepted forms, i.e. they are now words in their own right, whereas âmu is not an accepted word in its own right, it is understood always to be the truncated form of avemu, and we would rarely use it in the written language.
  8. Your argument on circunfressu has merit, I can't really defend circunflessu, it's simply what came to mind (and others appeared ready to use it). I think you should highlight an argument on that general point.
  9. I mostly agree with what you say about Italianisms. But it is a tricky and sensitive argument to make to your fellow Sicilians who all see theselves as Italians! What's the way round it? Keep it as a guiding principle, but don't necessarily espouse it, and stick to the middle road. Some italianisms are inevitable and it's difficult to avoid, live with some. Otherwise, simply strive to use real Sicilian words (of which both Piccittu and Camilleri show hundreds of thousands). So tackle it from that perspective - write a lot, use Sicilian words - if you have to occasionally use an Italian word - so be it. This is an area where there is no choice but to be a bit relaxed.
  10. Lastly, on alfabbetu. Obviously I am aware that arfabbetu or affabbetu both make intuitive sense. And it is true that I originally went with alfabbetu because that's what Piccittu had. The thing is, Piccittu usually shows the full range of forms where they exist - so why did he choose to only show alfabbetu on this occasion? So, I gave the benefit of the doubt to Piccittu - but the other consideration was that the etymology of the word alpha is so well know internationally, that I felt there was no harm sticking with alfabbetu. Lastly, there aren't all that many examples of loan words coming to us with -lf-, so while it is true that "L" often changes to "R", this pattern is noticeable before and after a certain range of consonants. Regarding "L" before "F" - I"m not sure if there are that many observable examples with which one can conclude that it cannot be alfabbetu. πίππύ δ'Ω∑ - (waarom? jus'b'coz!) 01:49, 15 Uttùviru 2006 (UTC)

[cancia] Maltese

I occasionally like to have a look at my Maltese-English dictionary just to see how our very close relative does things. Maltese often preserves Old Sicilian better than Sicilian itself. Only today I was presently surprised at finding the following: Zuologija (I don't have the full symbols, but there is a dot on the "g" denoting a soft "g") compared to our Zuoluggìa; gografija vs giografìa; enciklopedija vs enciclopedìa; dizzjunariju vs dizziunariu; agrikultura vs agricultura - this doesn't mean all that much in itself, but it is of interest nevertheless. I wanted to finish the earlier discussion by encouraging you to start with our cumpenniu stilìsticu and mentioning what in it specifically concerns you. We only mention a dozen or so broad principles, so there is not all that much to get through - but I would think that you would be in agreement with most of them. Salutamu! πίππύ δ'Ω∑ - (waarom? jus'b'coz!) 06:35, 15 Uttùviru 2006 (UTC)

[cancia] Wikipedia talk:Cumpenniu Stilìsticu

Michè - poi scrìviri li toi cummenti nta ssa pàggina. Nn'attruvammu dui virsioni di ssa vuci, dunca Turiddu scrissi nta chidda vecchia di nun scrivìricci cchiui - iddu nun vulìa ndrizzari stu missaggiu sulu a tia, ma a tutti. πίππύ δ'Ω∑ - (waarom? jus'b'coz!) 21:59, 16 Uttùviru 2006 (UTC)

[cancia] Last response in English

Ciau Michè - this will be my last response in English because we prefer all discussions to occur in Sicilian for obvious reasons. I just wanted to add that I understand perfectly where you are coming from regarding your desire to stick to the 5 vowel system - to one extent or another we all do precisely that. The question becomes how finicky we wish to be about some notable exceptions. As you know, you can find forms of Sicilian at one extreme where there is an absolute disregard for this tendency in Sicilian - so these prefixes are quite common at that end of the spectrum: con-, pro-, pre-, per-, and the list goes on. At least we can agree that in Wikipedia, we definitely are not at that extreme end, indeed our cumpenniu says as much, at the same time, it is fair to say that we allow a number of exceptions, which I maintain is quite acceptable.

So why do we not push the other extreme (no exception to this tendency - remembering that it is not a rule as such):

  1. I'm not sure that Sicilian has ever been that "pure" (the tendency of all languages is that they are never pure, and it is normally a waste of time pursuing such an objective); and
  2. Far too much has happened to turn back the clock - especially to go back to something that may or may not have existed.

So, my argument is not necessarily a linguistic one (although that alone has plenty of merit) - it is more a political one. We all want to preserve as much Sicilian as is possible (remembering that it remains a living language, and not something that exists in a laboratory) - which route presents us with the greater probabality of success? History teaches us - the middle road nearly always has more chance of success than either extreme.

Just to give you a small example of why I believe this. Let's take Giusi, she is Sicilian born and bred, learned linguistics at Palermo University, continues to live in Palermo, has used Sicilian all her life and has read much Sicilian literature. She is extremely pro Sicilian language, and she certainly stands out amongst the rest of population of the island on that front. She has told us all before, and I can confirm it from my own research, when you study Sicilian at the unis of Palermo or Catania - what do they call it? They don't call the subject matter Sicilian language, or even Sicilian - they call it dialettologia! So all the greatest minds in Sicily continue to refer to the study of Sicilian as what translates to as the study of dialect.

Now, let us assume that this Academy were to ever be created - who would be on it? These very same people who currently see nothing wrong with calling the study of Sicilian dialettologia. Can you see that you are never going to get any of these extreme positions past this lot. Will Prof. Cipolla be able to help? You already know the wide range of written forms he allows in Arba Sicula, both in poetry and prose. Furthermore, a year ago he was a guest at a L'Altra Sicilia conference on Sicilian - they all talked in Italian, including him. As Fara said at the time (with plenty of wit and irony) - they spoke perfect Italian, no hint of an accent! In other words, we do this in a certain context, withing a certain reality - to ignore that reality is definitely not the way forward. What you have to do is aim for the very best possible position given that reality.

So on top of all your enthusiasm and knowledge (of which you have plenty) - you need to add political instinct - the ability to sniff the prevailing wind and cast your sail to reach shore - it won't be where you want to be exactly - but try and get as close as possible to it. I promise you, you will find far more joy in Wikipedia in this regard than anywhere or anything you wish to try. As I have explained already, in many areas, we too have taken an extreme position, like the use of giugnettu. Extreme in the sense that most Sicilians would reject that word outright. At least I can point to both Piccittu and its use in poetry from the last half century. If I didn't have that, what would I have to insist that it be retained? Do you see what I mean? Personal conviction isn't enough.

This is why I sometimes don't quite understand why you reject Piccittu - he has documented so many real Sicilian forms - why would you wish to reject all that? Rather, isn't it best to hold up his 5 volumes as the most comprehensive study of its kind of the last 40 years, and use it as the primary weapon to retain as much real Sicilian as is possible. That's why I use the term politics - the art of the possible - aim and work towards what is possible - not towards something impossible.

The thing about Wikipedia is that a group of people have been able to get together and say we are going to write this particular way, and we base it on the very best references and works of literature that we know. With that put to bed, I have been able to do all I really want to do and that is write in Sicilian. That's my main interest, actually using the language in its written form, to produce prose relating to a wide variety of areas (and not just dedicated to over sentimental poetry). The fact is, I recognise much of the Sicilian I knew as a child in the way we write, same with Turiddu, and of course Giusi and Peppi recognise much of what they already know and use daily - if that weren't the case, all of us would simply not be involved.

I also say to you, that there's probably 5 to 10% that we do here that you don't agree with - but is that really worth dying in a ditch over? If something obvious stands out, by all means raise it - but if it's just a matter of personal preference - put it aside, direct your energy to where the wins are likely - check the prevailing wind and set your sail accordingly. Salutamu! πίππύ δ'Ω∑ - (waarom? jus'b'coz!) 04:50, 17 Uttùviru 2006 (UTC)

[cancia] Littri nun accintati

Ciau Micheli,

Vogghiu pricisari ca nun sugnu lu tò nnimicu nè lu tò rivali, e ora vogghiu arrispùnniri a sta discussioni.

Ntâ mè pàggina dî littri nun accintati haiu scrivutu quarchi ccizzioni dâ lingua siciliana pirchì la genti cridi ca 'n sicilianu abbasta scrìviri la "o" e la "e" sulu quannu sunnu littri accintati (fitènti, cunfòrtu, ecc.), ma asìstinu ccizzioni (a li voti sunnu formi taliani sicilianizzati ricentimenti) e ju l'appuntu quannu ci penzu:


Littra "e":

retrè, lezziòni, alimentàri, secùnnu, giometrìa, gersumìnu, genèricu, gesuìta, genitìvu, gentilìzziu, gentilòmu, germògghiu, levatrìci, ecc.


Littra "o":

rològgiu, caloffiràra, frigorìfaru/frigorìfiru, genocìdiu, ecc.


Accura! St'appunti pirsunali nun sunnu rèuli dû cumpenniu stilìsticu di sta Wikipedìa.


N'àutra cosa: nun sugnu linguista e mancu sugnu nu rivuluzziunariu ca voli sarvari la lingua siciliana. Quannu scrivu n'artìculu 'n wiki-sicilianu, nun lu fazzu pi sarvari la lingua siciliana (chistu l'hannu a fàciri li Siciliani di Sicilia). Ju scrivu pi divertirimi.


E m'hai a scusari ma nun haiu tempu pî wiki-dibbàttiti supra la lingua siciliana.


Salutamu. Turiddu

[cancia] Lingua siciliana

Ciau Michè,

Lu cummentu ca liggisti lu scrivì assai tempu fà, quannu era cchiù purista.

Sì, penzu ancora d'accussì pî formi:

"palistinesi" -> "palistinisi" (mutivu: comu nta "calabbrisi", "catanisi", ecc.)

"moschea" -> "muschea"

"procràma" -> "prucràma"/"pruclàma" (mutivu: è lu prifissu "pru")

N corsu (lingua tàlica di Còrsica) ùsanu "alizzioni", ma n sicilianu, "elezzioni" è megghiu di "elizzioni" pirchì li dizziunari talianu-sicilianu prupòninu "lezziòni" pi "lezione" (latinu: lectio) e "elezziòni" si dici "electio" 'n latinu. Sti dui palori fannu parti dâ stissa famigghia.

Tannu era cchiù purista, e ora accettu (a li voti) li formi taliani sicilianizzati, ma addipenni dî casi. Pirchì l'accettu? Sapemu tutti ca na lingua cancia n'anticchia (attraversu lu tempu) a lu cuntattu cu àutri lingui.

Salutamu!

--Sarvaturi 10:20, 17 Nuvèmmiru 2006 (UTC)

[cancia] Scoli siciliani

Ciau Michè,

Nun sugnu ju a aviri scrittu: "Chiossai dû 92% di li scoli siciliani di primu e secunnu gradu addumànnanu cchiù spazziu pi nzignamenti di caràttiri sicilianu (tradizzioni pupulari, lingua, storia, eccetra, di Sicilia). Chissu è lu risultatu di na ricerca fatta di l'Irre nta 300 scoli."

Ma criu ca la pirsuna asciau li nùmmari nta st'artìculu:

"26 ottobre 2006 - ADNKRONOS. Il 93% delle scuole siciliane del primo ciclo vorrebbe inserire nei programmi scolastici l'insegnamento delle tradizioni popolari, l'85% quello dei dialetti, il 70% quello della storia della Sicilia, il 66,7% quello di arti e mestieri. E' quanto emerge da una ricerca, condotta in oltre 300 scuole siciliane tra il 2004 e il 2005, sul tema dell'identita' culturale all'interno dei curricula scolastici. I risultati dell'indagine, condotta dall'IRRE (Istituto regionale di Ricerca educativa), sono stati presentati oggi a Palermo dall'assessore regionale ai Beni culturali, ambientali e alla Pubblica Istruzione, Lino Leanza, alla presenza, tra gli altri, del dirigente dell'Ufficio Scolastico regionale, Guido Di Stefano."

Fonti: http://www.orizzontescuola.it/article12478.html

Salutamu!

--Sarvaturi 10:31, 17 Nuvèmmiru 2006 (UTC)

[cancia] Micheli

Iu penzu ca la lingua, nudda lingua, si pò firmari. La lingua s'evolvi cuntinuamenti, puru chidda siciliana. C'è sulu na lingua chi nun s'evolvi: chidda morta chi nun si parra chiù. Sugnu daccordu cu tia ca nun s'hannu a mèttiri di latu li palori chi avemu pi canciàlli cu prèstiti di la lingua taliana. Però s'havi puru a ricanùsciri chi, s'iddu la tutalità di li siciliani accittaru na nova palora, chissa s'havi a cunzidirari facenti parti di la nostra lingua, puru s'iddu veni di la lingua taliana. Speru ca sî d'accordu!

Salutamu!

--Giusi 01:41, 19 Nuvèmmiru 2006 (UTC)

Ciau Michè - ju haiu dittu sempri ca la cosa cchiù mpurtanti è l'usari dâ lingua siciliana pi scrìviri, supratuttu, ddi palori antichi, beddi e veru siciliani chi sunnu quasi scurdati (ma nun ancora cumpritamenti). Ma ô stissu tempu cci cridemu propiu comu dissi Giusi, s'avissi a trattari di na lingua viva, e chissu significassi c'amâ ccittari ddi palori d'urìggini dû talianu chi già si ùsanu tutti li siciliani (o chi hannu un usu mudernu unni lu vucàbbulu sicilianu nun asisti). Ogni lingua funziona d'accussi - ma è puru veru ca usannu la lingua comu stamu facennu ccà signìfica cunsirbari assai palori e sprissioni siciliani chi facirmenti si nni scumparìssiru di circulazzioni senza fari d'àutru. Nun ti scurdari: 1. Lu sicilianu havi la sò littiratura (puru siddu è picca); e 2. na lingua pura nun asisti a nudda banna, ca macari lu latinu nun era puru pi nenti. Ju vogghiu vidìriti scrìviri artìculi - nun t'adduni ca nni mancamu li vuci di tutti li lòcura miricani. Picchì nun t'accumenzi cu nu scopu di stu gèniri, chi fussi nu travagghiu assai ùtili pi nuiàtri e pâ lingua siciliana. Salutamu. πίππύ δ'Ω∑ - (waarom? jus'b'coz!) 07:14, 19 Nuvèmmiru 2006 (UTC)

[cancia] 'A nuoscia linnua bieddhra

Ciau Michieli, 'razzi pri 'u ta missagghju. Ti 'rrispunnu priestu (ntra cocchi gghjòinnu). Salutamu. Saibbaturi