Disputatio:Suffixum diminutivum

E Vicipaedia

Ah! Didn't know you'd started this. Here's my summary, feel free to annotate or contradict:

  • Diminutives are almost always the same gender as the simplex noun (but we will be defaulting to masculine throughout here).
    • Exceptions are rare, e.g. conventus > conventiculum
  • First or second declension defaults to -ulus
    • If stem ends with -i- then suffix becomes -olus
    • If the stem ends with l (ocellus), n (femella) or r (castellum), then the suffix often coalesces with the stem to form -ellus
  • Third declension defaults to -iculus, but there are many special rules for different subtypes:
    • Nouns of the form -o -onis form diminutives in -unculus
    • S-stems, even where the s has shifted to r in all other forms, form diminutives in -usculus (e.g. arbor > arbusculus--keep in mind archaic Latin arbos.)
  • I think fourth and fifth declensions use -(i)culus forms as well, but I can't think of any examples offhand (other than conventus above).
You're right, Iustine, witness recula and diecula. --Neander 03:21, 1 Septembris 2007 (UTC)
Thanks! Recula is utterly new to me, but diecula was the example rattling in the back of my brain. I was too lazy to actually look it up though! Anyway, this is pretty cool: we can assemble a pretty complete list of rules here. --Iustinus 03:41, 1 Septembris 2007 (UTC)
  • It is possible to form a diminutive off of a diminutive: circus > circulus > circellus > *circellulus.

--Iustinus 23:36, 31 Augusti 2007 (UTC)

Do you think that they should be listed by declension? Your explanations have certainly made it much clearer for me than my haphazard table did. --Harrissimo 00:00, 1 Septembris 2007 (UTC)
It seems to me too that it would be more useful that way. But it's still your chart. --Iustinus 00:40, 1 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

Oh, and you're right about -olus. it does occur with vowels other than -i-. In Classical Latin we have forms like aculeus > aculeolus. There's the scientific Latin vacuum > vacuolum, though I don't know if there are any classical examples of this. If there are any examples with -a-, or -o-, then I have yet to find them, but then -aus -aa -aum and -ous -oa -oum are not exactly common endings in Latin, are they? Also, see Disputatio:Planetula for examples of what happens to first declension masculines. --Iustinus 02:06, 1 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

But there is Nicolaus maybe someone, sometime had a diminutive of that to say "little nick" or something like that. I guess they'd probably use Nicolalus - I've never seen an "a" and "o" together in latin before. --Harrissimo 11:43, 1 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

Index

[recensere] -eculus

OK, can anyone explain to me molecula? I mean, by my undestanding it should be *molicula. The word is very much a renaissance invention, but those people usually knew what they were doing. --Iustinus 06:34, 1 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

Interesting:
  • vulpes~vulpis > vulpecula
  • ovis > ovicula~ovecula
  • nubes > nubēcula
  • valles > vallicula~vallecula
  • trabs~trabes > trabecula~trabicula
  • vitis > vitecula
  • vepres > veprecula
--Iustinus 06:43, 1 Septembris 2007 (UTC)
Is this taken from Moles, Molis (f.)? (little boulder) so it should follow vulpes, vulpecula. Also, I think vitis is viticula, according to Words. --Harrissimo 17:05, 3 Septembris 2007 (UTC)
Another interesting example seems to be acus (4th) becoming aculeus (like a 3rd m. like rex would do). --Harrissimo 17:07, 3 Septembris 2007 (UTC)
Do you know where "-illus" should be properly used? It seems to pop up in unexpected places in the 2nd and 3rd declensions and Bennet's grammar isn't very specific. --Harrissimo 12:34, 8 Septembris 2007 (UTC)
viticula quater invenitur in TLL (apud Ciceronem, Columellam, et bis apud Plinium Maiorem), vitecula bis (apud Plinium Minorem et in Lydia Pseudo-Vergiliana: hīc metrum corroborat formam). ovecula non inveni in TLL. *acus > aculeus est similis ac *equus > equuleus (= eculeus). Fortasse et conferre possumus *nux > nuc(u)leus --Fabullus 14:07, 8 Septembris 2007 (UTC)
But is there a pattern with these "-leus" words? At the moment -leus and -illus seem to be just thrown in here and there. It seems the diminutive is more irregular than those neat, blue tables make it seem, momento. --Harrissimo 15:38, 8 Septembris 2007 (UTC)
-illus is a double diminutive like -ellus, but I don't know what the rules are for its distribution. As for -uleus, this is a pretty fascinating bit of morphology, a pattern I had never really noticed before. It is clear that all of them have stems that end with u (vocalic or consonental), but as we see below, it does not apply to all such nouns. --Iustinus 19:24, 16 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

Videte quod Servius scripsit de diminutivo 'vallecula' (Comm. in Verg. Aen. 11.522):

VALLES metri necessitate conpellimur ut 'vallis' dicamus: Statius “vallis in amplexu nemorum sedet”: nam plenum est 'valles', sicut nunc Vergilius posuit. quod ita esse diminutio indicat: nam 'vallecula' dicitur, sicut 'turrim' dici debere 'turricula' indicat, 'vulpes' 'vulpecula' facit: Horatius “moveat vulpecula risum”. ergo in 'es' vel in 'is' quando usurpative, quando naturaliter exeant nomina, sola diminutio indicat. ea autem quae in 'es' exeunt, longa sunt omnia, si in genetivo non crescant, ut 'labes' 'valles' 'vulpes': nam si crescant, brevia sunt, ut 'miles militis'. --Fabullus 11:36, 13 Septembris 2007 (UTC)
Quod ad nomen simplex attinet, perspicuum est. Sed quid de diminutivo innuere vult? Idem, ut tu supra indcas, nempe metri esse causam? --Iustinus 19:24, 16 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

[recensere] Ratio huius paginae

Si vis, Harrissimo mi, hanc paginam aliis vicipaedianis usui esse, regulae definiendae sunt, et exceptiones indicandae. Regulis nobis opus est, ut diminutiva nova facere possimus, exceptionibus ut non falsa creemus.--Fabullus 10:24, 16 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

Assentior. Harissimo, could we maybe make this page public? It could be a very useful page, and Fabullus and/or I could be very helpful, but we don't want to step on your toes. --Iustinus 19:24, 16 Septembris 2007 (UTC)
Est nunc libera omnibus. --Harrissimo 20:01, 16 Septembris 2007 (UTC)
Nonne haec quam aptissima sunt Portae Eruditionis? --Neander 21:55, 16 Septembris 2007 (UTC)
Ita, nescio num haec commentatio sit, fortasse potius auxilium, aut in spatio nominale [[vicipaedia:]]. --Iustinus 03:18, 20 Septembris 2007 (UTC)
I think that is should be kept as an article, but with a different page "Suffixum diminutivum Latinum", using a {{vide-etiam}} to the newer page from here. Since the English page only gives a brief overview of each language, things are going to be a bit excessive if we go into every nook and cranny of the diminutive on a general page about the suffix. I will be translating the page into English for the English wikibook:Latin. Harrissimo.

[recensere] Declinatio quarta

Vide, Iustine, diminutiva nominum quartae declinationis quae inveni in TLL:

  • artus (m) > articulus (m)
  • cinctus (m) > cincticulus (m)
  • quaestus (m) > quaesticulus (m)
  • versus (m) > versiculus (m) [--Fabullus 20:20, 16 Septembris 2007 (UTC)]
  • cornu (n) > corniculum (n)
  • genu (n) > geniculum (n)
  • conventus (m) > conventiculum (n)
  • currus (m) > curriculum (n)
  • anus (f) > anicula (f)
  • manus (f) > manicula (f) [non, ut scriptum in pagina, 'manusculus']
  • acus (f) > acūleus (m)
  • domus (f) > domuncula sive domuscula (f)

Ut supra iam coniecisti suffixum diminutivum regulare videtur esse -iculus/a/um. --Fabullus 10:24, 16 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

Macte virtute! Pleraque sunt ut suspectus sum, sed nonnulla mirror. Cur genus conventus et currus mutatur? Cur umquam -uleus? Et praeterea quidnam inferorum dici potest de "domuncula"? Mihi quidem est domus, non *domo ;) --Iustinus 19:24, 16 Septembris 2007 (UTC)
Quid dicas de rana, ranunculo; aut avus, avunculo? --Fabullus 19:39, 19 Septembris 2007 (UTC)
Recte, nonnulla esse videntur. Sed fortasse aliquibus fuerunt formae variantes ex -o.
Cum quidem de -unculis loquamur, me rogabam num essent verba -unculum ex -en -inis. Sed quae inveni omnino alterius generis fuerunt:
  • mendacium > mendaciunculum
  • statua > statunculum
  • tugurium > tuguriunculum
  • ? > caprunculum
Mirabiliter omnia sunt Iae aut IIae declinationis.
--Iustinus 01:11, 20 Septembris 2007 (UTC)
De hac re heri mirabor unde musca => Italice moschetta, tamen Hispanice mosquito...--Ioscius (disp) 17:18, 20 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

[recensere] In Verbs

This podcast is really useful. I think there are more in that series about diminutives too. Basically latin verb diminutive is:

  • All go to 1st verb declension (-o, -are, -avi, -atus)
  • They add mostly -ill- before the -o
  • Examples: Cantillare: To barely Hum, Conscribillare: To scribble, Murmurillare: To murmur a little. Harrissimo.

[recensere] Declinatio tertia

Declinatio tertia difficilior esse videtur quam tu, Iustine, et ego putavimus.

Iam dixi "there are many special rules for different subtypes," nonne? ;) --Iustinus 01:02, 20 Septembris 2007 (UTC)
  • Nomina in -ēs, -is exeuntia diminutivum in -ēcul- mittunt. (Hoc est quod mihi videtur Servius (vide supra) dixisse)
vulpēs, vulpis > vulpēcula
sed:
saepēs, saepis > saepicula [addidi --Fabullus 11:12, 20 Septembris 2007 (UTC)]
  • Nomina in -is, -is exeuntia diminutivum in -icul- mittunt.
turris, turris > turricula
canis, canis > canicula
sed:
vallis, vallis > vallēcula (e forma alterna 'vallēs')
vitis, vitis > vitēcula (iuxta 'viticula')
iuvenis, iuvenis > iuvenculus (e synonymo 'iuvencus')
viridis, viridis (adi.) > viridulus [addidi --Fabullus 21:02, 19 Septembris 2007 (UTC)]
  • Nomina neutri generis in -e, -is exeuntia diminutivum in -icul- mittunt.
rete, retis > reticulum (unicum exemplum quod invenire potui)
  • Nomina in -o, -ōnis/-ĭnis exeuntia diminutivum in -uncul- mittunt.
ratio, rationis > ratiuncula
homo, hominis > homunculus
  • Nomina quorum stirps? in -c- aut -g- exit diminutivum in -ul- mittunt.
vox, vocis > vocula
rex, regis > regulus
calx, calcis > calculus
falx, falcis > falcula
lanx, lancis > lancula
  • Nomina quorum stirps? antiquitus in -s- exiit diminutivum in -cul- mittunt.
flōs, flōris > flōsculus
ōs, ōris > ōsculum
mūs, mūris > mūsculus
arbŏr, arbŏris > arbuscula (o brevis fit u)
iecŭr, iecŏris > iecusculum (o brevis fit u)
  • Nomina quorum stirps? exit in -r(r)- aut -l(l)- diminutivum in -cul- mittunt.
amator, amatoris > amatorculus
ver, veris > verculum
far, farris > farculum
mel, mellis > melculum
  • De nominibus quorum stirps? exit in -t- et -d- nescio quid faciam.
caput, capitis > capitulum (= capit-ulum)
merces, mercedis > mercedula [addidi --Fabullus 10:03, 20 Septembris 2007 (UTC)]
nepos, nepotis > nepotulus [addidi --Fabullus 10:03, 20 Septembris 2007 (UTC)]
aetas, aetatis > aetatula [addidi --Fabullus 10:03, 20 Septembris 2007 (UTC)]
aries, arietis > arietillus (= ariet-illus)
glans, glandis > glandula (=gland-ula)
lapis, lapidis > lapillus (= lapid-lus)
cor, cordis > corculum (=cord-culum)
pes, pedis > pediculus [addidi --Fabullus 10:03, 20 Septembris 2007 (UTC)]
anas, anatis > anaticula [addidi --Fabullus 11:12, 20 Septembris 2007 (UTC)]
  • Ceterum nomina quorum stirps? exit in -rt-, -lt-, -nt- diminutivum in -icul- mittunt.
pars, partis > particula
puls, pultis > pulticula
dens, dentis > denticulus
pons, pontis > ponticulus
lens, lentis > lenticula
  • De ceteris nominibus, quorum stirps? exit in -b- aut -p- aut in consonantes plures exempla non inveni.
ops, opis > ?
urbs, urbis > ?
stirps, stirpis > ?

--Fabullus 19:39, 19 Septembris 2007 (UTC)

I think urbs is urbecula. I have seen this in Hofmann a few times. One of which is here. There is also codex, codicillus. I'm not sure where that would fit in. Harrissimo.
Gratias tibi, Fabulle, ago pro laboribus tuis strenuis et utillimis!
Dicamus igitur pro declinatione i, si nominativum in -is vel -e exit, diminutivum esse -icul(us), sin autem -es, -ecul(us), regulum autem esse satis laxum.
Ita vero. --Fabullus 11:12, 20 Septembris 2007 (UTC)
Placet scire formulam de "velaribus," qualia sunt -c- et -g-. Nonnulla verba animadverteram, sed non formulam. Quod ad "dentales" pertinet, mira est variatio, et usque adhuc neque ego intelligo. Sine dubio classis quae continet –rt-, -lt-, -nt- ad omnia duobus litteris dissimilibus exeuntes pertinebit.
Tecum consentio. Fortasse regulam definire possumus omnia nomina quorum stirps exit in duas aut plures consonantes diminutivum mittere in -icul-, exceptionibus scilicet exceptis. Ceterum, si hanc regulam adhibemus in 'urbem', diminutivum 'urbicula', non 'urbecula' invenimus. Quod ad dentales singulas pertinet, novis exemplis allatis nunc credo haec nomina plerumque diminutivum in -ul- mittere, multis tamen casibus exceptis. --Fabullus 11:12, 20 Septembris 2007 (UTC)
Urbecula sounds right to me too, but there don't seem to be any classical examples thereof, its admissability is questionable. And I remind you that codicillus is adouble-diminutive. The fact that codiculus doesn't exist doesn't matter. Of course codicula exists, but that comes form cauda (weird). --Iustinus 01:02, 20 Septembris 2007 (UTC)
Duo tantum dimuntiva ex -b- aut -p- invenio:
scrobs, scrobis > scrobiculus
plebs, plebis > plebecula, plebicula
Ambo autem variationes ex -i- habent: scrobes, plebes, plebis. --Iustinus 01:46, 20 Septembris 2007 (UTC)
Et trabs, trabis > trabecula, trabicula --Fabullus 11:12, 20 Septembris 2007 (UTC)
Eh? Quomodo trabem ommisi!? De eo verbo cogitaveram, sed non, ut videtur, quaesivi. Sed et trabs habet formam alternam "trabes." --Iustinus 18:07, 20 Septembris 2007 (UTC)