Disputatio Formulae:Usor la
E Vicipaedia
Perhaps forgive my naivete, but for whom could this category possibly exist? And if for no one, should we have it at all?
I know what you mean ... :-)
Possible answers:
- I just copied it from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:User_la
- The English WP has 3 (!) native Latin speakers.
- Unfortunately we have just one.
- It was fun. (sorry)
- It is good for consistency.
- We could keep the template - for fun - and change to maybe something like this:
la | This user claims to be a native speaker of Latin but we refuse to believe. |
--Roland2 15:17, 28 Ianuarii 2006 (UTC)
- this has been extensively debated on the english wikipedia. See, for example here. Of course this template is even more useless now that there are -N and -4 categories. And honestly I am inclined to doubt anyone who puts themselves down for -4 anyway.
- And Roland, the text of the template already says "...or more likely is lying." ;) --Iustinus 17:20, 28 Ianuarii 2006 (UTC)
- Really lying? That would be too hard. But the direction is ok. In German maybe: Dieser Benutzer behauptet, Latein wäre seine Muttersprache. Aber wir glauben ihm das nicht. The first part starts with This user ... and the reader is awaiting the standard text but here not the user is talking about himself but the others are commenting his usage of "User la". I thought it were funny ... and I had some fun. Explaining it, was funny again. Ok ... two much fun for one day. :-) --Roland2 18:08, 28 Ianuarii 2006 (UTC)
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- After having read the discussion in the English WP ... I hope that nobody will seriously use this template in the meaning of "native speaker". Although: If there are parents out, maybe teachers of Latin, who make an experiment with their babies ... From the definition, these children should use "User la". I have heard that a person can have several "Muttersprachen". It is nearly incredible that it will ever happen that a native speaker of Latin will join the Latin Wikipedia ... but we are ready if it happens. :-) Of course there should be a hint on the template what we think about this template. --Roland2 18:37, 28 Ianuarii 2006 (UTC)
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- I know of a couple parents who are teaching their children Latin in such a manner. At least one of the children seems to have exceeded her mother too, which is amazing. But none of them is old enough to contribute here just yet, so we'll just have to wait ;) --Iustinus 19:09, 28 Ianuarii 2006 (UTC)
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I am inclined to think that we should look at the Latin speaking population and rate ourselves within that. What would Terry, Dirk, Reginald, Milena, etc. be rated? Further, there are no distinctions, in English for example, between native speaker college professors and high school dropouts. In the scheme of things, those of us who can carry on a competent hour-long conversation on a variety of topics are the "native speakers" of Latin.--Andreas 22:45, 6 Iunii 2007 (UTC)
- I am inclined to agree on the whole, Andrea. This is why I tailored my babel box on my page. The 1-5 distinction is inadequate, like you say. A housemate of mine is from Moscow, but his English is far better than another of our housemates who was born here and just is completely uneducated. Should the Muscovite therefore get the lower rating? I don't think so.--Ioshus (disp) 14:28, 6 Iunii 2007 (UTC)
- Well, nativeness is important for questions of intuition, regardless of level of education. Also, there is a world of difference between, say, AAVE, Cockney, Appalachian etc. on the one hand, and on the other hand the sort of things you see at engrish.com. In other words, just because every sentence that dances off of my tongue is not worthy of Great Literature does not mean that my English is no better than that of a professor of anglophone literature whose native language is Greek. --Iustinus 15:06, 6 Iunii 2007 (UTC)
- But what do you want that to mean for Latin? What is the population we should rate ourselves against? The living, or the impossible dead?--Andreas 22:49, 6 Iunii 2007 (UTC)
- I have perhaps misunderstood your argument. I guess wat you're actualy saying is taht we should recalibrate the scale. I.e. we're not really saying that Terentius and his ilk have native proficiency so much as that they are the top of the scale. Of course given the limited gradations of the scale as it is, I'm not so sure that would change my rating! --Iustinus 22:55, 6 Iunii 2007 (UTC)
- That is what I meant, we should calibrate against the living population of Latin speakers/writers not Cicero and Erasmus who were extraordinary even in their own times and, unfortunately, unparalleled in ours. I've heard that we have a worldwide population of Latin speakers/writers somewhat under 10,000 compared with readers of ~10,000,000, and further that of that 10,000 less than 1,000 are at all comfortable in conversation, and of that 1,000 less than 100 who could meet any standard of fluency. So what should la-1, la-2, la-3 etc. mean for us?--Andreas 13:02, 7 Iunii 2007 (UTC)
- I have perhaps misunderstood your argument. I guess wat you're actualy saying is taht we should recalibrate the scale. I.e. we're not really saying that Terentius and his ilk have native proficiency so much as that they are the top of the scale. Of course given the limited gradations of the scale as it is, I'm not so sure that would change my rating! --Iustinus 22:55, 6 Iunii 2007 (UTC)
- But what do you want that to mean for Latin? What is the population we should rate ourselves against? The living, or the impossible dead?--Andreas 22:49, 6 Iunii 2007 (UTC)
- Well, nativeness is important for questions of intuition, regardless of level of education. Also, there is a world of difference between, say, AAVE, Cockney, Appalachian etc. on the one hand, and on the other hand the sort of things you see at engrish.com. In other words, just because every sentence that dances off of my tongue is not worthy of Great Literature does not mean that my English is no better than that of a professor of anglophone literature whose native language is Greek. --Iustinus 15:06, 6 Iunii 2007 (UTC)