Disputatio:Helsinkium
E Vicipaedia
[recensere] Finnia vs. Finlandia
Differencia est? GiovaneScuola2006 10:42, 26 Octobris 2006 (UTC)
- Page Finnia says Finnia sive Finlandia. I realized that some minutes ago, when I created "Categoria:Urbes Finlandiae" and saw that there is a category "Finnia" (later). I am interested in an answer to your question as well. --Roland (disp.)
[recensere] Grammar question
Aside from lateness of est here, I'm wondering about the grammar of
-
- Urbs . . . 562'570 incolarum est.
and
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- Area . . . 1'293'093 incolarum (quartum incolarum Finniae) est.
Does that syntax work in Latin? A "literal" translation is unacceptable in English ("The city is 562,570 of inhabitants" ~ "The city is the inhabitants' 562,570"). Not that that's a certain guide, but it does make one wonder. Since the illustrated pattern turns up in other articles too, this question may be larger than it looks. IacobusAmor 12:36, 27 Octobris 2006 (UTC)
- Would this be better in English? "It is a city of 562,570 inhabitants." Could it be a genetivus qualitatis? --Roland (disp.) 12:45, 27 Octobris 2006 (UTC)
- "The Genitive is used to denote Quality, but only when the quality is modified by an adjective" (A&G #345). Maybe by a stretch of the imagination, an inhabitant could be conceived as a unit of measure, so this genitive could be taken for the Genitive of Measure: "The genitive of quality, with numerals, is used to define measures of length, depth, etc." (A&G #345b). How long is an inhabitant?! IacobusAmor 13:33, 27 Octobris 2006 (UTC)
- The construction Roland is thinking of is a "genitive of description." I'm running out the door right now, so I can't really check if that's the right construction for this context, but it's definitely a valid construction. --Iustinus 20:20, 28 Ianuarii 2007 (UTC)
- What about "The number/amount of citizens in the city [Helsinkium] is ******."? --BiT 21:58, 28 Ianuarii 2007 (UTC)
- There must be a classical idiom for this idea. English 'population' is populi frequentia, so maybe, in the present example: "Populi frequentia est 562,570." IacobusAmor 23:07, 28 Ianuarii 2007 (UTC)
- What about "The number/amount of citizens in the city [Helsinkium] is ******."? --BiT 21:58, 28 Ianuarii 2007 (UTC)
- The construction Roland is thinking of is a "genitive of description." I'm running out the door right now, so I can't really check if that's the right construction for this context, but it's definitely a valid construction. --Iustinus 20:20, 28 Ianuarii 2007 (UTC)
- "The Genitive is used to denote Quality, but only when the quality is modified by an adjective" (A&G #345). Maybe by a stretch of the imagination, an inhabitant could be conceived as a unit of measure, so this genitive could be taken for the Genitive of Measure: "The genitive of quality, with numerals, is used to define measures of length, depth, etc." (A&G #345b). How long is an inhabitant?! IacobusAmor 13:33, 27 Octobris 2006 (UTC)
[recensere] Helsinkium vs. Helsingia
Where on Earth does that name "Helsinkium" come? I have not heard of that name anywhere but here in Vicipædia. IMO Helsingia is a lot better (it is btw a lot more established, eg. "Universitas Helsingiensis", not Helsinkiensis), even if it is a homonym with the Latin name of Hälsingland.
- And Vantania, WTF is that? :D 153.1.21.18 15:42, 28 Novembris 2006 (UTC)
- It's the only translation given by a recent Finnish-Latin dictionary. Including the letter K, the word seems kind of "anti-Latin", but... --81.197.26.33 18:28, 28 Ianuarii 2007 (UTC)
- I'd be interested to know Finns pronounce Helsinki. Could a Finnish-speaker please tell us? We might want to pronounce Latin Helsinkium something like [hɛlsiŋkium] and Helsingia [hɛlsiŋia]. For me, the preferred spelling of the Latin may depend on how Finns pronounce the Finnish. IacobusAmor 18:54, 28 Ianuarii 2007 (UTC)
- Finnish is pronounced "as written", [hɛlsiŋki]. Nuntii latini seems to use that new form [1]. --81.197.26.33 21:11, 28 Ianuarii 2007 (UTC)
- Hmm. Then why isn't the noun Helsinci, -orum (pl.), like Athenae, -arum? IacobusAmor 22:59, 28 Ianuarii 2007 (UTC)
- 'Cause that'd just be weird. ;) The question is why it isn't Helsinki, -is following the rules we found asserted to apud eos solere when researching Finno-Latin stuff for Aquilo (Kalevala). —Mucius Tever 23:57, 28 Ianuarii 2007 (UTC)
- Hmm. Then why isn't the noun Helsinci, -orum (pl.), like Athenae, -arum? IacobusAmor 22:59, 28 Ianuarii 2007 (UTC)
- Finnish is pronounced "as written", [hɛlsiŋki]. Nuntii latini seems to use that new form [1]. --81.197.26.33 21:11, 28 Ianuarii 2007 (UTC)
- I'd be interested to know Finns pronounce Helsinki. Could a Finnish-speaker please tell us? We might want to pronounce Latin Helsinkium something like [hɛlsiŋkium] and Helsingia [hɛlsiŋia]. For me, the preferred spelling of the Latin may depend on how Finns pronounce the Finnish. IacobusAmor 18:54, 28 Ianuarii 2007 (UTC)
- It's the only translation given by a recent Finnish-Latin dictionary. Including the letter K, the word seems kind of "anti-Latin", but... --81.197.26.33 18:28, 28 Ianuarii 2007 (UTC)