time |
User |
comment |
20:11 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
20:12 |
lahcimit |
o/ |
20:12 |
lahcimit |
GerardM: I hope at least you got my mail about two days ago :) |
20:17 |
Jhs |
hi lahcimit |
20:17 |
Jhs |
and GerardM |
20:20 |
lahcimit |
and Jhs |
20:20 |
lahcimit |
Jhs, I'm surprised you're actually here ^.^ |
20:20 |
Jhs |
lahcimit: why? |
20:20 |
Jhs |
have i been away that often? |
20:21 |
lahcimit |
usually you're like "omg, you had a meeting, I completely forgot" |
20:21 |
lahcimit |
:P |
20:21 |
Jhs |
:p |
20:21 |
Jhs |
i got the mail this time ;) |
20:21 |
Jhs |
well, i got it the other times as well |
20:21 |
lahcimit |
chatzilla sucks when I have too many panels open |
20:21 |
Jhs |
but now i read it _before_ the meeting took place |
20:22 |
lahcimit |
= away until 21:00 utc |
20:22 |
Jhs |
(but i might not be here when the meeting is supposed to happen; it is a bit late) |
20:24 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
20:25 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
20:26 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
20:26 |
Jhs |
there are already four balkan-language project... that's three too many IMO |
20:27 |
Jhs |
we don't need a fifth |
20:29 |
timichal (n=youlose@wikimedia/timichal) has joined #spc-lang-com |
20:30 |
timichal |
gerard, so you didn't get my mail? |
20:30 |
timichal |
i explained the situation about the proposal in it |
20:34 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
20:34 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
20:34 |
timichal |
two days ago, I think |
20:35 |
timichal |
i sent it from timichal to timichal dot net to idon'tremember |
20:35 |
timichal |
damn, *at timichal |
20:35 |
timichal |
Jhs, can you forward it or something? |
20:36 |
Jhs |
yeah |
20:36 |
Jhs |
btw, brion is online no |
20:36 |
Jhs |
w |
20:36 |
Jhs |
go bug him |
20:36 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
20:36 |
timichal |
no |
20:36 |
timichal |
gerard, yes |
20:36 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
20:36 |
Jhs |
{{done}} |
20:36 |
timichal |
jon, you go bug him, he hates me already |
20:37 |
Jhs |
timichal: what should i bug him about? |
20:37 |
Jhs |
creating a langcomwiki? |
20:37 |
timichal |
yes. |
20:37 |
timichal |
yesterday i poked him and he was like stfu |
20:39 |
timichal |
jhs: have you ever met him in person? |
20:39 |
Jhs |
nope |
20:39 |
Jhs |
but if i get a scholarship for Wikimania (not likely) i will |
20:39 |
timichal |
why not likely? you are probably important to wmf, as a steward |
20:40 |
Jhs |
well, but i don't know any of the chinese that are in the team setting up the scholarships. ;) |
20:40 |
timichal |
who else should get it? :) |
20:40 |
timichal |
hehe |
20:40 |
Jhs |
i could bribe someone, but that would be a bit pointless |
20:40 |
timichal |
poked brion? |
20:40 |
timichal |
:p |
20:41 |
Jhs |
timichal: yeah, said he, "make sure it's in bugzilla with shell marking and i'll get to it in a while" |
20:41 |
timichal |
really? |
20:41 |
Jhs |
yeah |
20:41 |
timichal |
i'll kill him |
20:41 |
timichal |
no |
20:41 |
Jhs |
i think he favours me to you |
20:41 |
timichal |
i'll send anthere to kill him |
20:41 |
Jhs |
:o |
20:41 |
Jhs |
even worse |
20:42 |
timichal |
have you told him we have a deadline and I'm fucking requesting it since fucking Sunday? |
20:43 |
Jhs |
no |
20:43 |
Jhs |
but if i said it that way, i think he would stfu me too |
20:43 |
timichal |
not that way |
20:43 |
timichal |
make it look polite :) |
20:44 |
timichal |
at least ask him how long is a while supposed to be, or something |
20:44 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
20:44 |
timichal |
good |
20:44 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
20:45 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
20:45 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
20:45 |
timichal |
oh, and what are we going to do with the montenegrin thing anyway? |
20:46 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
20:46 |
timichal |
as we don't have any decision power |
20:46 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
20:46 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
20:46 |
timichal |
i agree, however, can we deny it? |
20:46 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
20:46 |
timichal |
ok |
20:47 |
timichal |
advise to whom? |
20:47 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
20:48 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
20:48 |
timichal |
actually, the board is probably discussing the matter right now |
20:48 |
timichal |
iirc, it's on anthere's meeting agenda |
20:49 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
20:49 |
timichal |
and I have promised her to provide a new language policy |
20:49 |
Jhs |
http://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=8080 |
20:49 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
20:49 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
20:49 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
20:49 |
timichal |
yes |
20:50 |
timichal |
but things have changed |
20:50 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
20:52 |
timichal |
first, pathoschild's policy reform. anthere (and me) sees it as having good points. i think the one we've made is not bad, but is over-bureaucratised |
20:52 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
20:52 |
timichal |
and iirc, it wasn't in any consistent form |
20:52 |
timichal |
about what? |
20:53 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
20:53 |
timichal |
oh |
20:53 |
timichal |
i'm on mobile phone now, could you throw in a link, Jhs? :p |
20:53 |
Jhs |
g2g to help my step-father, brb |
20:54 |
timichal |
mhm |
20:54 |
timichal |
it's something like m:new language policy |
20:54 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
20:55 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
20:55 |
timichal |
it has some things better than in ours; most importantly - it actually works |
20:55 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
20:55 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
20:55 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
20:56 |
timichal |
the meta admins thing is stupid, yes |
20:56 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
20:56 |
timichal |
and there could definitely be some improvements in the requirements |
20:56 |
timichal |
yes, like codes |
20:57 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
20:57 |
timichal |
but generally, i like the process itself; it's simple, clear, and involves the community |
20:57 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
20:58 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
20:58 |
timichal |
ah, you mean, they don't have to start with wikipedia? |
20:58 |
timichal |
good point |
20:59 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
20:59 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
21:00 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
21:00 |
timichal |
well, the community would be happy. remember we don't do it only for standards, but also for people. |
21:00 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
21:01 |
timichal |
yes |
21:01 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
21:01 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
21:02 |
timichal |
for some small languages, editors=readers |
21:02 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
21:02 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
21:03 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
21:04 |
timichal |
well, and because of your points, we should develop a policy that makes all this guaranteed. and what's good about it, it'll start working before new year |
21:04 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
21:04 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
21:04 |
timichal |
right |
21:05 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
21:06 |
timichal |
sigh... community involvement, for example. And I'm not talking about codes, that's your domain; I'm worried about the general process |
21:06 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
21:06 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
21:07 |
timichal |
no voting |
21:07 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
21:07 |
timichal |
read pathoschild's proposal |
21:07 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
21:08 |
timichal |
we are to decide. in my opinion, the decision should have two parts |
21:08 |
timichal |
first, general compatibility with standards - iso codes and the like |
21:09 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
21:09 |
timichal |
second, feasibility for Wikimedia to have the project on their servers |
21:09 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
21:09 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
21:10 |
timichal |
I'm not suggesting to completely adopt that proposal |
21:10 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
21:10 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
21:10 |
timichal |
i disagree |
21:10 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
21:11 |
timichal |
the fact the language is recognized by cue-your-favourite-standards-organization doesn't automatically mean Wikimedia wants it |
21:12 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
21:12 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
21:13 |
timichal |
ah, sorry, my english is probably broken :) of course the ability is there. i meant necessity, and that's what we should decide on |
21:13 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
21:14 |
timichal |
the langcom |
21:14 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
21:15 |
timichal |
correct |
21:15 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
21:15 |
timichal |
that's what i tried to say |
21:15 |
timichal |
the community aka the proposing people is to give us arguments for starting the wiki. |
21:16 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
21:16 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
21:16 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
21:16 |
timichal |
some might oppose, and we can take their arguments into account or we can ignore them |
21:17 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
21:17 |
timichal |
yes, that's what i mean |
21:17 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
21:17 |
timichal |
decide and give a reason why |
21:18 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
21:18 |
timichal |
yep |
21:18 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
21:20 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
21:23 |
timichal |
but they'll be satisfied they are able to participate :) completely different than "omg they decided totally in secret, they're cabal, let's whine to jimbo" |
21:25 |
Jhs |
back |
21:25 |
timichal |
jhs: see me on -tech! i win! |
21:26 |
timichal |
i lied a little little bit, but... |
21:26 |
timichal |
oh, you aren't on that channel |
21:27 |
timichal |
but looks like brion will do it this afternoon! *winwin* |
21:28 |
Jhs |
;) |
21:29 |
timichal |
jhs: have you proposed a name or something in bugzilla? |
21:30 |
timichal |
cause i did a while ago |
21:32 |
SabineCretella |
hi |
21:32 |
timichal |
hi sabine |
21:34 |
timichal |
showertime for me |
21:34 |
Jhs |
timichal: yeah, i did |
15:36 |
fuu (n=Pathosch@wikimedia/Pathoschild) has joined #spc-lang-com |
15:37 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
15:37 |
fuu |
Hey. Yep, I'm <...> |
15:37 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
15:37 |
SabineCretella |
Hi :-) |
15:37 |
fuu |
Hello. :) |
15:37 |
fuu |
I've read it, if it's the proposal that is on Meta. |
15:39 |
fuu |
reads the email. |
15:39 |
SabineCretella |
no it is about the creation of new wikipedias ... or did I put it on meta and don't remember ... that would be tragic ;-) |
15:39 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
15:40 |
SabineCretella |
ok - probably he saw our proposal to spc online |
15:41 |
SabineCretella |
or my thoughts I wrote down on meta before the language subcom was created |
15:41 |
timichal has left irc.freenode.net ("used jmIrc") |
15:41 |
lahcimit is now known as timichal |
15:42 |
fuu |
The proposal seems compatible with the new policy, which is essentially a standardised step-based process for quickly going through proposal, discussion, community building and translation, and decision. |
15:42 |
fuu |
reads the discussion. |
15:43 |
timichal |
oh no, it's the fuu |
15:43 |
fuu |
:) |
15:43 |
timichal |
Jhs: not langcom |
15:43 |
timichal |
langscom |
15:43 |
Jhs |
timichal: ?? |
15:43 |
Jhs |
what's the difference? |
15:43 |
timichal |
the s |
15:43 |
Jhs |
except that langscom is harder to pronounce |
15:43 |
Jhs |
and less intuitive |
15:44 |
timichal |
we won't pronounce it :P |
15:44 |
timichal |
see, we are not a commitee |
15:44 |
Jhs |
i will when skyping with GerardM ;) |
15:44 |
timichal |
spcom might whine |
15:44 |
timichal |
omg, I need to get skype |
15:44 |
Jhs |
timichal: yes, you do |
15:44 |
timichal |
but my english horribly fails |
15:44 |
Jhs |
so does mine :) |
15:44 |
timichal |
I'll at least try ;) |
15:44 |
timichal |
but anyway |
15:44 |
Jhs |
if spcom whines, we'll kick their asses. like in the mexican parliament |
15:45 |
fuu is now known as Pathoschild |
15:45 |
timichal |
langscom - languages commitee for us, language subcommitee for spcom |
15:45 |
SabineCretella |
timichal: indeed you need skype ;-) |
15:45 |
timichal |
Jhs: won't work |
15:45 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
15:45 |
Jhs |
i read langscom as "languages committeee" |
15:45 |
timichal |
Jhs: good |
15:45 |
SabineCretella |
Jhs lol ... you are naughty :-P worse than me |
15:45 |
timichal |
and they'll read as language subcommiteeeeeeeee :) |
15:46 |
timichal |
and I fail to spell committee |
15:46 |
timichal |
so let's make it langscom, Jon |
15:46 |
timichal |
puh-leaaaase |
15:47 |
timichal |
oh, I can't really get skype |
15:47 |
timichal |
wait, I can! |
15:47 |
SabineCretella |
why thimichal? |
15:48 |
timichal |
it's there for linux even :D |
15:48 |
SabineCretella |
linux? I use it also with linux |
15:48 |
timichal |
I'll add you guys tomorrow then |
15:49 |
SabineCretella |
hmmm ... berto is not around right? and also ascander is missing |
15:50 |
SabineCretella |
and I did not copy karen in my mail :-( |
15:50 |
timichal |
Jhs: oh, and I'm really shy, too |
15:50 |
timichal |
SabineCretella: :-/ |
15:50 |
timichal |
Jhs: WHERE ARE YOU? OMG |
15:50 |
Jhs |
hehe |
15:50 |
Jhs |
I'M HERE OMG |
15:50 |
timichal |
[21:46:33] <timichal> so let's make it langscom, Jon |
15:50 |
timichal |
[21:46:36] <timichal> puh-leaaaase |
15:50 |
SabineCretella |
great :-) |
15:50 |
Jhs |
i don't ping on Jon |
15:51 |
timichal |
but you're Jon |
15:51 |
timichal |
I like calling you Jon, since I can't really pronounce Jhs |
15:51 |
Jhs |
Jon is part of "Diskusjon", which is the name of the talk namespaces on no.wikipedia |
15:51 |
Jhs |
so i would be pinged every second second |
15:51 |
timichal |
no |
15:51 |
Jhs |
yes |
15:51 |
timichal |
enable "whole words only" |
15:51 |
Jhs |
yeah, but then i won't ping on Nauru or Steward |
15:51 |
Jhs |
or Fantomet |
15:52 |
timichal |
bah |
15:52 |
Jhs |
in norwegian we don't split words. so Phantom comic = Fantomettegneserie (ok, bad example, but still) |
15:52 |
SabineCretella |
well ... shouldn't we talk about Montenegrin? |
15:53 |
timichal |
Jhs: that's nice, but my question is still unanswered |
15:53 |
timichal |
SabineCretella: Yes. |
15:53 |
timichal |
SabineCretella: I'd deny it, if it depended on me |
15:53 |
SabineCretella |
another funny situation .... |
15:53 |
SabineCretella |
well: they should merge into Serbian |
15:53 |
Jhs |
timichal: yes, intentionally |
15:53 |
Jhs |
doesn't like langscom |
15:53 |
Jhs |
it sounds like lang-scum |
15:53 |
timichal |
so what |
15:54 |
timichal |
see, let's get a neutral person |
15:54 |
Jhs |
so what? |
15:54 |
timichal |
Pathoschild! |
15:54 |
Jhs |
are we scum? |
15:54 |
Jhs |
no |
15:54 |
SabineCretella |
otherwise we get thousands of variations of languages and dialects .... too many wikipedias to get good going projects |
15:54 |
timichal |
SabineCretella: I agree |
15:54 |
Pathoschild |
timichal: Yes? |
15:54 |
Jhs |
too |
15:54 |
timichal |
Pathoschild: langcom.wikimedia.org or langscom.wikimedia.org? |
15:54 |
Pathoschild |
timichal: I haven't participated in any discussion about this. What's wrong with meta.wikimedia.org? :) |
15:55 |
Jhs |
it's very non-private |
15:55 |
timichal |
Pathoschild: ignore that at the moment :P |
15:55 |
timichal |
just tell me which name is better |
15:55 |
Jhs |
like, if we want to bash siberian wikipedia, it is a lot harder on meta. we would have to use rot13 or something |
15:56 |
timichal |
Jhs: exactly! cabal stuff has to be done s1kr17 |
15:56 |
Pathoschild |
I'd go for langcom. I think "lang scum" when I read the second. :) |
15:56 |
timichal |
okay, okay |
15:56 |
timichal |
I lose |
15:56 |
Jhs |
eat your words, timichal :p |
15:56 |
timichal |
but you two will be blamed if Anthere shouts at me ^.^ |
15:56 |
Jhs |
fine by me |
15:56 |
timichal |
so, why not meta |
15:57 |
timichal |
Ant asked me the same question :P |
15:58 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
15:58 |
Pathoschild |
"secret". |
15:58 |
timichal |
GerardM: secret |
15:59 |
timichal |
oh, I'm supposed to continue, right |
15:59 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
15:59 |
timichal |
well, I looked a bit into the future |
15:59 |
SabineCretella |
langcom ... I lik that one |
15:59 |
timichal |
SabineCretella: bah |
15:59 |
SabineCretella |
because it is short |
16:00 |
timichal |
we could write that proposal on meta easily |
16:00 |
SabineCretella |
the proposal on meta is ok |
16:00 |
Pathoschild |
GerardM: Regarding the "closing admin" part of the policy, that was chosen because it's more or less fair; any admin can contest any decision, so a Montenegrin admin can't just decide that we *obviously* need a Montenegrin Wikipedia. It was added so that the process will work until something better replaces that. If the languages subcommittee wants to make all decisions, all the better. |
16:00 |
SabineCretella |
but imagine to discuss about issues on meta |
16:00 |
timichal |
but we might have to shout at each other later, during decisions |
16:00 |
timichal |
and I wouldn't like to do it on meta |
16:00 |
timichal |
what SabineCretella says :) |
16:00 |
SabineCretella |
that would mean we need to discuss with all that neat people day and night and would not even have time to sleep |
16:00 |
SabineCretella |
not that I do not want to discuss |
16:01 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
16:01 |
SabineCretella |
but: only up to a certain amount of time |
16:01 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
16:01 |
timichal |
SabineCretella: you know we have a defacto deadline, right? |
16:01 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
16:01 |
SabineCretella |
for Montenegrin? or for the proposal? |
16:01 |
timichal |
for the proposal |
16:01 |
SabineCretella |
well: tak the proposal and copy and paste it online |
16:01 |
Pathoschild |
GerardM: I asked timichal to bring this up a few days ago. *Does* the language subcommittee want to make all decisions? Judging from the discussion so far, that seems to be the case. |
16:02 |
SabineCretella |
th only thing to be amended according to ascander is the fact that |
16:02 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
16:02 |
SabineCretella |
it needs to be underlined that the edits need to be done on meta |
16:02 |
timichal |
Sabine, well, I'd like to work on it |
16:02 |
Pathoschild |
Note that I wrote the policy knowing next to nothing about the language subcommittee, since the Meta page says almost nothing about it. :) |
16:02 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
16:02 |
timichal |
look at my previous discussion with gerard |
16:03 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
16:03 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
16:04 |
Pathoschild |
GerardM: Because the process was not working, and the language subcommittee didn't seem to be doing anything. I proposed it for a week or two on the main page, just in case anyone thought I should wait. :) |
16:04 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
16:04 |
SabineCretella |
well, I believe, meta is simply too big to have a good overview |
16:04 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
16:04 |
timichal |
Sabine: Pathoschild has made some good points in his policy, and I'd like to merge his and our ideas |
16:04 |
SabineCretella |
and we were not seen much around since we did not have official stuff |
16:04 |
Pathoschild |
GerardM: Yes, but none of that is written anywhere. |
16:05 |
SabineCretella |
timichal: yes - that makes sense |
16:05 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
16:05 |
timichal |
the problem is, as always, in communication :) |
16:05 |
SabineCretella |
the problem is meta ... it does not allow to effectively see things if you don't know them in advance |
16:05 |
Pathoschild |
GerardM: Perhaps, but if you don't communicate you can hardly complain that others edited the wiki without considering the points you don't communicate. :) |
16:06 |
SabineCretella |
exactly ... communication ... |
16:06 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
16:06 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
16:06 |
timichal |
so, when are we here, someone go answer http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Special_projects_subcommittees/Languages :) |
16:06 |
Pathoschild |
GerardM: The one you emailed? Yes, and it's not incompatible with the policy I proposed. Mine is mostly a proposal; Sabine's is mostly a set of requirements. |
16:06 |
timichal |
Pathoschild, exactly |
16:07 |
Pathoschild |
er, Mine is mostly a process*. |
16:07 |
timichal |
I'd like to somehow merge both |
16:07 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
16:07 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
16:07 |
Pathoschild |
GerardM: I didn't invent that; it was in the original guidelines. |
16:07 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
16:08 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
16:08 |
timichal |
well, we'll change that then |
16:08 |
timichal |
that |
16:08 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
16:08 |
Pathoschild |
GerardM: That's fine by me; I'd prefer we use real codes, but I assumed that we were allowing invented codes based on some previous discussion. |
16:08 |
timichal |
*that's why I want to have a wiki soon |
16:08 |
Pathoschild |
GerardM: Yep; that's how I knew about your objection to my proposal. :) |
16:09 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
16:09 |
timichal |
then we can collaborate on it. |
16:09 |
timichal |
also, I think we should let Pathoschild in :) |
16:09 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
16:10 |
SabineCretella |
well ... the proposal has some points ... I need to re-read it not having to chat in the meantime ... but: like it is now I am not happy with it ... integrating things for good points makes always sense |
16:10 |
timichal |
GerardM: opening your xls |
16:10 |
Pathoschild |
Yep. |
16:10 |
timichal |
we should have it finished around dec 12 |
16:11 |
SabineCretella |
well on dec. 12 I am already on my way to Austria ... so possibly by dec. 11 |
16:11 |
SabineCretella |
to a nice conference about standards in the language industry (including iso codes ;-) |
16:12 |
Jhs |
g2g now |
16:12 |
Jhs |
school night |
16:12 |
Jhs |
(oh, and we really should have a wiki or some place to to our thing other than irc; i'm unable to do anything productive here, as you may have noticed :) ) |
16:12 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
16:12 |
Pathoschild |
GerardM: Yep, and I already answered; I see no problem with the proposed requirements. |
16:12 |
SabineCretella |
good night Jhs |
16:12 |
Pathoschild |
Good night. |
16:12 |
SabineCretella |
so as for montenegrin, Jhs, what do we count? |
16:12 |
Pathoschild |
My proposal is mostly a streamlined process, though. It'd be faster if we change it, rather than create a whole new policy with points from it. |
16:12 |
Jhs |
SabineCretella: i say no |
16:12 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
16:12 |
SabineCretella |
ok, thank you! |
16:13 |
Jhs |
np :) |
16:13 |
SabineCretella |
good night Jhs |
16:13 |
Jhs |
g'night |
16:13 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
16:13 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
16:13 |
Jhs has left irc.freenode.net ("zzzzzzzzzzzzz") |
16:13 |
timichal |
Pathoschild: yes. |
16:14 |
SabineCretella |
also with another person |
16:14 |
Pathoschild |
GerardM: You both have objections to it. I don't see why we can't just change it to meet your objections. For example, removing the note about inventing codes would answer your objection with codes. |
16:14 |
Pathoschild |
Or do you object to the process itself? |
16:14 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
16:14 |
Pathoschild |
GerardM: So add that to the policy. |
16:14 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
16:15 |
SabineCretella |
the same requirements cannot be used for different projects |
16:15 |
timichal |
well, I'm against creating a completely new policy |
16:15 |
SabineCretella |
community building is different from wikipedia to wiktionary to wikibook etc. |
16:15 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
16:15 |
timichal |
I say, add our requirements to Pathoschild's process, and tweak it |
16:15 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
16:16 |
timichal |
yes, it's there, I assume |
16:16 |
SabineCretella |
there are languages for which there is no iso 639-3 code (for example) but they are indeed languages |
16:16 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
16:16 |
SabineCretella |
so: the code is one criteria ... but it should not be the only one ... people can request a code for their language |
16:16 |
timichal |
oh, let the requirements be not too harsh |
16:16 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
16:17 |
SabineCretella |
well: that is why I said: there are languages that are known as such, but don't have a cod |
16:17 |
Pathoschild |
GerardM: Yes, the policy already suggests that. Once we've looked at it and decided that it's not a project that'll never be accepted, we conditionally approve it and let them build a test project on the incubator. |
16:17 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
16:17 |
SabineCretella |
see Griko Salentino for example |
16:17 |
Pathoschild |
Although they can build a test project first, of course. |
16:17 |
SabineCretella |
people could work on the incubator anyway |
16:17 |
timichal |
I noticed you bunch are talking about codes all the time :P |
16:17 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
16:17 |
SabineCretella |
why should they need approval? |
16:17 |
Pathoschild |
GerardM: Yes; that's why it's conditional. |
16:18 |
timichal |
IMO creating a project on incubator doesn't need approval |
16:18 |
Pathoschild |
SabineCretella: They can do it without approval, if they want. It's just a go-ahead that tells them they won't be wasting their time on something that we won't accept. |
16:18 |
timichal |
s/project/new lang of a project |
16:18 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
16:18 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
16:18 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
16:18 |
SabineCretella |
well: that can always happen Pathoschild ... incubator does not mean they can have their project |
16:19 |
SabineCretella |
but that is their place where they can really work |
16:19 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
16:19 |
Pathoschild |
GerardM: I thought there were several non-Wikipedia projects on Incubator? |
16:19 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
16:19 |
timichal |
Pathoschild: correct |
16:19 |
timichal |
incubator is not for wikipedia only |
16:20 |
Pathoschild |
I don't see what your point is; what do you mean by "and incubator is for WIKIPEDIA" ? |
16:20 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
16:20 |
Pathoschild |
To demonstrate that there's a community ready to work on that language project. |
16:20 |
timichal |
to prove they can do a book |
16:21 |
Pathoschild |
There are too many wikis that exist now that have no communities. |
16:21 |
timichal |
Pathoschild can say the same as I, except three times more effectively :) |
16:21 |
Pathoschild |
:) |
16:21 |
SabineCretella |
There should be enough speakers to form a viable community and audience. Whether a particular language qualifies depends on discussion. |
16:21 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
16:21 |
SabineCretella |
this is a sentence I don't like |
16:21 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
16:21 |
timichal |
we should have some space for discussion. |
16:21 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
16:22 |
timichal |
to make the people feel involved |
16:22 |
Pathoschild |
SabineCretella: If there's only one person interested, they're probably not going to get far. We should encourage them to get a few others involved. |
16:22 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
16:22 |
Pathoschild |
GerardM: We want their books, but we don't want a wiki with no community. |
16:22 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
16:22 |
SabineCretella |
well yes, but: there are different communites - there are wikipedias where 10 people promised to edit and now we are only in three ... so: that number is really veery orientative |
16:22 |
Pathoschild |
GerardM: Sure we can; that's what the incubator and multilingual Wikisource are for. |
16:23 |
Pathoschild |
SabineCretella: That's why there is a test project; the users who really are interested can start the project on incubator, then move it over when the wiki is created. |
16:23 |
SabineCretella |
They have to show that they work over a certain period ... otherwise, well, you will have the situation like we have it with many small wikipedias |
16:23 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
16:24 |
SabineCretella |
well, yes, that is why we set up a certain amount of edits within a certain time periond by a certain number of people |
16:24 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
16:24 |
timichal |
a little off-topic remark: ru-sib, while opposed by many as not being a real language, is an extremely successful and fast-growing wiki |
16:24 |
Pathoschild |
GerardM: Weren't the UNDP texts English? |
16:24 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
16:24 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
16:25 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
16:25 |
Pathoschild |
GerardM: You suggest we should create a wiki in every real language right now, and hope someone moves in one day and makes it successful? |
16:25 |
SabineCretella |
timichal do you have a clue on how different ru-sib is from ru? |
16:25 |
SabineCretella |
I mean: really different or just partly different? |
16:25 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
16:26 |
timichal |
SabineCretella: partly different, I think. but I can read ru-sib more easily than ru |
16:26 |
SabineCretella |
ok - that is clearly a difference |
16:26 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
16:26 |
SabineCretella |
Hmmmm for wikibooks |
16:26 |
timichal |
well, I was thinking the commitee itself could vote on these cases |
16:27 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
16:27 |
SabineCretella |
we could have one project with several languages on it as long as there are only two or three books in that language |
16:27 |
SabineCretella |
when it grows then you can always pass it over - initially wikibooks was one wiki with several languages ... |
16:27 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
16:27 |
SabineCretella |
well: we need it anyway ... |
16:28 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
16:28 |
timichal |
I disagree with a wikibooks project having five imported books, but no community |
16:28 |
Pathoschild |
GerardM: A wiki is useful only as long as someone edits it. Even if someone donates a book, it's pointless to create a wiki for it if nobody will edit it. We should put it on the incubator, encourage a community to grow, and create the wiki when it's active. |
16:28 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
16:29 |
SabineCretella |
the thing is: these books will be edited over time ... not immediately (as much as I understand) |
16:29 |
SabineCretella |
so one wiki to collect these books should be ok (because they are real finished books ... not books that are on the way to be written) |
16:29 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
16:29 |
Pathoschild |
GerardM: I have no problem with donations, and I'm certainly not suggesting we reject them. I'm saying that wikis that have no community should all be one wiki where they can await a real community. |
16:30 |
SabineCretella |
I mean: one wiki for more languages ... don't see a problem |
16:30 |
timichal |
if they said "we'll donate five books in <obscure language> if you make a wikibooks project in <obscure language>", I'd disagree |
16:30 |
timichal |
and refuse |
16:30 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
16:30 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
16:31 |
Pathoschild |
A donation is not a community. |
16:31 |
SabineCretella |
sorry ... this all is hypothetic ... the books need a wiki ... we have wikis |
16:31 |
SabineCretella |
but: we need to make sure it can "live" |
16:31 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
16:31 |
SabineCretella |
why search for difficult solutions .... |
16:32 |
timichal |
SabineCretella: yes |
16:32 |
SabineCretella |
if there are simple ones? |
16:32 |
Pathoschild |
GerardM: Put it on incubator. |
16:32 |
SabineCretella |
well: put the Akan book on a "mixd languages" wikibook project |
16:32 |
Pathoschild |
That's what the incubator is for; incubating future wikis. |
16:32 |
SabineCretella |
I would not put in on incubator |
16:32 |
timichal |
I kinda agree with sabine |
16:32 |
SabineCretella |
because it is finished and w will have more books |
16:33 |
timichal |
we should make a wikibooks project for obscure languages |
16:33 |
Pathoschild |
SabineCretella: Creating a multilingual Wikibooks project is fine. Wikisource already has a multilingual project where it keeps texts until a wiki is created for them. |
16:33 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
16:33 |
timichal |
yes, something like that |
16:33 |
timichal |
GerardM: sorry, I'm too lazy to express what I have on mind |
16:33 |
SabineCretella |
exactly ... somthing like that wikisource thingie |
16:33 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
16:34 |
SabineCretella |
where is the multilingual wikisource |
16:35 |
Pathoschild |
GerardM: So we'd put the Akan wikibook at [http://wikibooks.org/code/title], invite a community to expand the Akan project, and move it to code.wikibooks.org when there's a viable community. |
16:35 |
SabineCretella |
don't find it ... |
16:35 |
Pathoschild |
SabineCretella: http://wikisource.org/wiki/Main_page |
16:35 |
SabineCretella |
just on wikisource.org? |
16:35 |
SabineCretella |
ah ok - so I was right there |
16:36 |
SabineCretella |
but: the main page does not indicate it ... I mean that other languages are welcome to insert things there |
16:36 |
SabineCretella |
hmmm ... have to think a bit about that page |
16:37 |
Pathoschild |
Hmm... it should be. See [http://wikisource.org/wiki/Talk:Main_Page#How_to_add_languages.3F], for example. |
16:37 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
16:38 |
SabineCretella |
you don't see it immediately ... that's what I mean |
16:38 |
SabineCretella |
will think about a proposal (time permitting) |
16:38 |
Pathoschild |
SabineCretella: I'll mention it to a multilingual admin I know. |
16:38 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
16:38 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
16:38 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
16:38 |
Pathoschild |
That's fine by me, either on incubator or a multilingual version of that project. |
16:39 |
Pathoschild |
...then again, I'm not part of the subcommittee. |
16:39 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
16:39 |
Pathoschild |
GerardM: That seems redundant with incubator, but as long as there's a standardised method... |
16:40 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
16:40 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
16:41 |
Pathoschild |
I'd prefer that be done in the same place as the development of the project itself. |
16:41 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
16:41 |
Pathoschild |
Perhaps in normal wiki pages until the multilingual MediaWiki is ready. |
16:41 |
Pathoschild |
GerardM: Well then, let's just pick one and do both there. :) |
16:42 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
16:42 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
16:42 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
16:43 |
timichal |
"let's pick one" kinda difficult |
16:43 |
timichal |
we can't throw away the incubator, as it's an official wm project now and what not |
16:44 |
timichal |
but having the betawiki functionality in incubator'd need a lot of help from the devs |
16:45 |
Pathoschild |
We'd have to split every proposal into two wikis during development, then? |
16:46 |
timichal |
well, I'd like to avoid it, but currently there's no other choice |
16:46 |
timichal |
unless Nikerabbit gets shell access... |
16:46 |
SabineCretella |
brion offered, time ago, to host betawiki on his server |
16:47 |
SabineCretella |
I suppose there are som probs to have it on normal mediawiki servers |
16:47 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
16:47 |
SabineCretella |
because of the code that is in there |
16:47 |
timichal |
SabineCretella: yes |
16:47 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
16:47 |
timichal |
exactly |
16:47 |
Pathoschild |
GerardM: That would be the best solution. |
16:47 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
16:47 |
timichal |
but we can't cancel the incubator |
16:48 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
16:48 |
SabineCretella |
otherwise: it would not be a problem to migrate the incubator on betawiki ... it would not change things since betawiki has only additional functions |
16:48 |
timichal |
so we could move incubator to leuksman the brionsrv and merge it with betawiki |
16:48 |
SabineCretella |
call it incubator |
16:48 |
timichal |
SabineCretella: betawiki is slow and ugly :P |
16:48 |
SabineCretella |
use betawiki code |
16:48 |
timichal |
and Finnish |
16:48 |
SabineCretella |
I suppose it is a server problem as wll timichal |
16:49 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
16:49 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
16:51 |
timichal |
sure |
16:51 |
timichal |
but, how? |
16:52 |
SabineCretella |
ok .. we need a naughty plan :-P |
16:52 |
SabineCretella |
who cleans the code? |
16:53 |
timichal |
Nikerabbit! |
16:53 |
SabineCretella |
(sorry, I cannot do that ... if it were a kitchen ... well ... that would be easier ;-) |
16:54 |
Pathoschild |
To clarify an earlier point, does anyone mind if I deny the Montenegrin Wikipedia under the current policy? |
16:54 |
timichal |
poking him about it |
16:54 |
timichal |
Pathoschild: I don't |
16:54 |
SabineCretella |
the problem is Nikerabbit is the one who wrote the code ... |
16:54 |
SabineCretella |
and brion is not happy with it |
16:54 |
SabineCretella |
so ... we have a not so nice situation |
16:55 |
SabineCretella |
how do we get the two together? .... brion doesn't have time to do things himself |
16:55 |
SabineCretella |
we need the one in the middle ;-) |
16:55 |
timichal |
I'll learn php really fast? :P |
16:55 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
16:55 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
16:56 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
16:56 |
SabineCretella |
lol ... be aware timichal ;-) |
16:56 |
timichal |
[22:55:26] <timichal> but we'd like to have the functionality of betawiki in incubator |
16:56 |
timichal |
[22:55:44] <Nikerabbit> what functionality |
16:56 |
Pathoschild |
goes off to close the Montenegrin proposal, then. |
16:56 |
SabineCretella |
or you will have loads of work :-P |
16:56 |
timichal |
right, what functionality do we need at incubator? |
16:57 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
16:57 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
16:57 |
SabineCretella |
as for Montenegrin: they will need to deal with Serbian .... should we talk to that wikipedia or just propose it and leave it up to them? |
16:58 |
Pathoschild |
SabineCretella: It seems to me that wikis should not be split along political lines. We should encourage them to work together, or at the very least have Montenegrin pages alongside Siberian pages. |
16:59 |
SabineCretella |
You are right Pathossschild :-) |
16:59 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
17:03 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
17:03 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
17:03 |
timichal |
yes, wait a sec |
17:03 |
Nikerabbit (i=nike@wikipedia/Nikerabbit) has joined #spc-lang-com |
17:03 |
timichal |
so here's the master of betawiki, tell him what you need :P |
17:03 |
SabineCretella |
hi Nikerabbit :-) |
17:03 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
17:04 |
Pathoschild |
We should discuss specific points about the policy at some point. Particularly: are we scrapping the implemented policy, or changing it? |
17:04 |
Pathoschild |
Hello. :) |
17:04 |
timichal |
Pathoschild: I say changing |
17:04 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
17:04 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
17:05 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
17:05 |
Nikerabbit |
ugh.. oh hello |
17:05 |
Pathoschild |
GerardM: Meta:Language proposal policy. |
17:05 |
timichal |
I don't really know what special functionality betawiki has :) |
17:05 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
17:06 |
SabineCretella |
work ... |
17:06 |
SabineCretella |
:-P |
17:06 |
Nikerabbit |
sweat and pizza, or coffee if you prefer |
17:06 |
SabineCretella |
sending a real neapolitan pizza over the chat .... |
17:06 |
timichal |
but please don't import the betawiki colors :P |
17:06 |
SabineCretella |
going to make a good espresso ... |
17:06 |
Nikerabbit |
depends a little which functionality is on the list, most likely the enhanced SpecialAllmessages and EditPage |
17:07 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
17:07 |
Nikerabbit |
and the content.. that's a another story |
17:07 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
17:08 |
Nikerabbit |
and unfortunately a bit..hidden in the noice, may I say |
17:09 |
timichal |
well, Nikerabbit, I heard brion doesn't like the code |
17:09 |
timichal |
not on wm servers |
17:09 |
Nikerabbit |
well brion hasn't seen it at all, i think |
17:10 |
timichal |
ahh |
17:10 |
timichal |
but he's too busy anyway |
17:10 |
timichal |
get shell access ;) |
17:10 |
Nikerabbit |
maybe I should create a branch for it anyway...would done already if we were using git :) |
17:11 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
17:11 |
Nikerabbit |
yes, the distributed svn or something like that |
17:11 |
Pathoschild |
notes: Requests for new languages/Wikipedia Montenegrin closed. |
17:12 |
timichal |
okay, create a branch |
17:12 |
Nikerabbit |
anyway, that's techicalities I can get over with |
17:12 |
timichal |
and then we'll tell Anthere to shout at brion to enable it to incubator :D |
17:13 |
Nikerabbit |
having it's own branch, it would be a tad easier to run it on wmf, should that ever happen |
17:13 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
17:13 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
17:14 |
timichal |
well, I expect the policy to be approved before Jan |
17:14 |
Nikerabbit |
but still, it would be different codebase |
17:14 |
SabineCretella |
Pathoschild: that was a great comment :-) |
17:14 |
Pathoschild |
Thanks. :) |
17:14 |
Nikerabbit |
am I correct that all wikies on wmf currently run on the same code? |
17:14 |
timichal |
Nikerabbit: no |
17:14 |
Nikerabbit |
except test, perhaps |
17:14 |
timichal |
Nikerabbit: well, fundamentally yes |
17:14 |
timichal |
but some have certain extensions enabled |
17:15 |
Nikerabbit |
that's a different thingie |
17:15 |
Nikerabbit |
betawiki isn't an extension, currently |
17:16 |
timichal |
make it one ;) |
17:16 |
GerardM |
<this user has not agreed to public archival.> |
17:16 |
SabineCretella |
hmmm ... probably having it as an extension could solve th problem |
17:16 |
timichal |
till when you're in the army? |
17:16 |
Nikerabbit |
well, it would be hell of an extension... |
17:17 |
Nikerabbit |
I've modified the serialized format of langfiles... |
17:17 |
SabineCretella |
hmmm .... |
17:18 |
timichal |
ouchouch |
17:18 |
Nikerabbit |
but for the others.. I could create new SpecialPage, copy from Allmessages, and hook Editpage |
17:18 |
timichal |
is the modified format crucial? |
17:18 |
Nikerabbit |
well, it includes the messages array unmerged besides the merged one |
17:19 |
Nikerabbit |
waste of space for normal wikies |
17:20 |
Pathoschild |
wanders off to have supper. |