Talk:Паӂина принчипалэ/Архивэ5
Де ла Википедия ын лимба молдовеняскэ
[edit] NODE, where have you written in Romanian... Please show me, and I'll agree to you
Node ue, citesti romana? Du-te ma... Si, ni ma, ce coincidenta... Tot ceea ce ai scris tu in moldoveneste pana acuma apare exact asa si in traductor, cu textele engleze pe care ti le-am aratat eu. In engleza, totul suna frumos, dar iti dai seama ca un traductor automat nu poate sa faca o traducere perfecta... A nu se traduce textul asta în engleza. Node, I have the translator at home, since a year now, and I am very familiarised with it. So don't tell me it was just a coincidence that the atomatic translator translated exactly the same way. Bullshit...
Then again, Node, please name me at least two Moldovans agreeing with your point. Don't do any tricks, I'll find out the truth in the end, like I did with the translator. By that I mean: don't create new user acounts and claim you are a different user, because I'll test the "new users" and see how much Romanian/Moldovan they speak. I'll give you some Moldovans against this Wikipedia: Landroni, a Moldovan currently living in France, Duca, and of course we should ask Oleg Alexandrov also. Beeing a Romanian, I have ancestors in the Republic of Moldova, don't you think? Because before 1940, Moldova was part of Romania. All Romanians could list themselves here. But we are not selfish, like you are, and don't list us here, if we are not Moldovans, in the today conception of the word. Ronline, donnot translate the first sentences I wrote in Romanian. As for you Node, I'd like to see what you've understood. But I guess you'll find an excuse.
Now, this is no more up to you. We will request the closure of this language version, if you don't find real Moldovan users to back up your point. Node, of course you wanted to compromise, as the use of both scripts would have been better than nothing. Don't get to iritated. A, and finally, it seams like you are not Japanese, but American. Boy, you are odd. You ask at one moment why should Germans interfere in the Romanian Wikipedia, then you say, you, as an American (you really are succesful in making me hate you, as being an American, I mostly prefer southern European) should interfere with the Moldovan Wikipedia. As I said before, YOU ARE ODD. You should get some treatment. Grea viaţa...
And why do I want to end this story quickly? Because I had enough. It's summer vacation... please. Go have some fun. Go in a disco, meet up with your friends, go to the sea, run from home, do something, but don't make my head a mess. Have fun. Ah, and don't forget to write next time, what you've understood from the first 4 lines. --ro:Utilizator:Danutz
- As if I'm going to respond to you, who called me a Japanese fag. Dream on. --Node ue 23:50, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Danutz, nu uita ca poate sa foloseasca traducatorul ala din nou. Mai bine il punem sa scrie in romana decat sa traduca. Ca asa si eu pot sa'ti traduc de pe greceste in engleza ptr. ca as putea sa folosesc traducatorul de pe altavista babelfish.
Iar cand ii zici sa mearga la disco sau sa se intalneasca cu prietenii, cred ca presupui prea multe lucruri; de ex. presupui ca omu asta ARE prieteni. Nu te'ai gandit ca poate nu are? Poate ca singurii lui prieteni sunt alfabetul maldavianiesc si traducatorul romano-englez :) Asta ar si cam explica de ce tine asa de mult la pagina asta :)
Node, please if it's so easy for you to understand romanian, please translate what I wrote as well :)
Domnu Goie
- I don't see why you ask, especially after saying "nu uita ca poate să folosească traducătorul ala din nou."
- I'll comply anyhow though. CFirst, you tell him to keep in mind that I might just use the translator again, then you tell him athat you guys should ask me to write in romanian, then you tell him that he's presupposing in his that I ihave friends, and nthen that my efriends are the "Maldabian" alphabet and the Rom... wait, why am I translating this? pMie imi este sila raceasta prostie. oTu esti, schiar, un tpropagandist stalinistic. Tu esti rautacios, prietenul meu. --Node ue 23:46, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Please log in to verify identity
Hi everybody. If you have an established identity, please register and/or log in. I was just wondering just now, since all of the posts that claim to be from Danutz are anonymous, I'm not sure they're really from him. If they are, that's fine, but I don't think anybody wants anybody pretending to be them, so let's please try to log in. --Node ue 04:15, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Recollection
Firstly, please-please stop with the insults. Seriously, I can't ask you any nicer than that. Danutz, especially you. Just saying that someone's odd doesn't prove anything. Node has proved to be quite an interesting character in terms of origin and all that, but we're not talking here about people's personal life. Yes, it's summer, yes I can't wait for my holiday on the Estonian coast, but we need to solve this issue. Now, onto the more important things. Domnu Goie, you asked:
Ce înseamnă subdomainul ăsta? Va fi un subdomain al wikipediei Româneşti sau nu? Va mai trimite lumea la wikipedia românească daca cineva va alege "Moldoveneasca in Latină"? Si cel mai important, va menţiona ca limba Moldovenească scrisă in cirilică este tot una cu limba Română scrisa in cirilică?
OK. The subdomain I proposed would be the foundation of a separate Moldo-Romanian Cyrillic Wikipedia. It will not be directly related to the Romanian Wikipedia, which will exist only in latin, since that's the official and by far majority script for Romanian. The cyrillic subdomain will not be biscriptal, however, mo.wiki will remain as a biscriptal portal which will send people either to ro.wiki for Latin or this new subdomain (mo-cyr.wiki) for Cyrillic. As to mentioning that Moldovan Cyrillic is the same as Romanian Cyrillic, I really don't see the point. But we can agree on that later.
Node, I see your point about not letting non-Moldovans vote, but I think it is unfair. I know that Romanians are over-represented here, but everyone should have the right to vote, and when there are enough Moldovans to actually support what they should support, then we can change decisions. I don't think that just because something is logistically hard to do it shouldn't be done. If we have to resort to setting up another subdomain, we should do so. Now, as far as I have gathered from here, different people are proposing three main models:
- The "abolitionist" model - abolish mo.wiki, redirect it to ro.wiki, don't cater for Cyrillic content. Benefits: Supported on the grounds that the Moldovan language = Romanian language and Cyrillic script in unofficial. Disadvantages: Wikipedia is democratic and inclusive. If there is demand for Moldovan Cyrillic content, then we have to offer it.
- The status quo with some additions - basically, let mo.wiki be a biscriptal wiki, but with content mainly in Cyrillic in order to not duplicate Romanian-Latin content from ro.wiki, which is already an established medium-sized Wikipedia. This would mean a biscriptal interface giving preference to Latin.
- The subdomain solution - setting up a mo-cyr subdomain, while letting mo.wiki subdomain be a redirection portal to both ro.wiki and mo-cyr.wiki. This would be advantageous because it would enable mo.wiki to be neutral and not contain any content, while also catering for the minority Cyrillic script at a separate subdomain.
Next steps - I think we should consult the broader Wikimedia community on these models. Hopefully they may give us a better insight. Node, we argued about this on the mailing list a while ago, I think we should raise the issue again and actually get a more analytical response from people about the issue. I mean, the mo-cyr subdomain would be a new thing that hasn't been done before. We just need to gauge how other people, totally neutral to the issue, respond to it. Ronline 07:15, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
PS: An afterthought: Node - I read what you wrote at "Utilizator:Ronline/Wikipedia moldovenească" and I would actually be willing to accept your model with only one minor addition - if the interwiki links from other Wikipedias can be titled "Moldovenească (chirilică)" instead of just "Moldovenească" so that people can know that the language is usually written in Latin. Other than that, and thinking about it, I think your model would work. Ronline 07:22, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- El este o propunere buna. I can agree to those terms. Unfortunately, I do not think most people here will. As to whether actual people living in Moldova have supported this Wikipedia, User:Vertaler, User:Monedula, and User:Dmitriid are all in Moldova as it seems, Vertaler seemed to actively support this Wikipedia, including the fact that much of the content here is his work (he definitely fixed up the spelling, I was at first writing the way I was taught, which is grapheme-for-grapheme equivalent to Latin, but that isn't the common way which is more phonetic). Monedula contributed a little in Cyrillic, but didn't express much of an opinion. Dmitriid made it obvious that he did not agree with the existance of mo.wiki.
- If you believe there is a way to go with my proposal (plus your addition of the interwiki thing), without having to go through a weird thing with all of the people cropping up at this page who seem to want nothing less than outright deletion of mo.wiki, that's fine and I hope it comes to fruition... --Node ue 08:24, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
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- Node, do you really think I am stupid? First of all... your problem if you donnot respond... You refuse your constitutional right to defense... that's why we shouldn't consider your opinion. Second... User:Dmitriid does not support this Wikipedia, see his contributions, for example his opinion on this talk page (he states: I would agree if Moldovan was called a dialect of Romanian, which is perfectly understandable, but to make a separate page for it and turn it into a sort of political statement?? on 8th of May). Monedula lives in Yaroslavl, Russia, and speaks russian as a mother tongue, then en-3, fr-2, de-2, it-2, es-2, pt-1, eo-1, nl-1, pl-1 and bg-1, as you can see on his page in en.wiki, but not Romanian, nor Moldovan. As of User:Vertaler, he is a missing Wikipedian since April 18 (actually he had only 12 contributions, all in April), and he just use to correct the alphabet of written articles. But he didn't stated anywere that he is supporting this Wikipedia.
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- I quote, from myself "Dmitriid opposes the existance of this Wikipedia.", and then again later "Dmitriid made it obvious that he did not agree with the existance of mo.wiki.". As I said, there are 4 Moldovan users here, I never claimed that all of them agreed to the existance of this Wikipedia. Vertaler also contributed from an IP until actually relatively recently.
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- Ronline please present this situation in a neutral way to an international Wikipedia mailing-list. I don't have the time, nor the English skill to do so. Please state that only Node ue supports this Wikipedia, and that he is no native speaker (please also give the examples with the translator, and also mention he didn't respond anytime I wrote something in Romanian). Also please present the fact he is no credible user (because he lied about some things, like for example "the so-called users that support this Wikipedia that don't exist" or the fact that he is "proud of a Moldovan - not quite Romanian, but certainly not Slavic - identity", but he hasn't proven until now he speaks the language), and that all what he did here was transliterating small articles from ro.wiki (by that not proving that he speaks Romanian).
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- Neutral? Are you crazy? 1) Vertaler added information, including the article "Moldovan alphabet". He did not express an opinion one way or the other.
- Which people did I lie about existing?
- Do you really consider the article on the late roman catholic pope to be a small article?
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- Than, please add he became a sysop, without reaching an agreement here. Also I'd like you to say something about all users that want the cyrillic wikipedia closed, or at least out from this domain, and mention everybodies country, and if possible the skill of Romanian. Ronline, I'm sorry I asked you to do all this, but I'm very buisy and at least in you I trust the neutrality. And, BTW, you again used the translator... Don't use it, because it has errors: "El este o propunere buna" means "He is a good proposal". And about logging in: This time I logged in!!!! --Danutz (în ro.wiki | em pt.wiki) 12:02, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
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- Let's see what my actions have been so far as a sysop, and how I requested them. I did some changes to the interface, I deleted some blank pages and one page written in German, and I protected the mainpage. The Romanian mainpage is protected, too. If somebody thinks it's POV, will you add a POV template to it? Of course not, it's the mainpage. In fact, the mainpage here contains so little content, it's basically just a portal directing people elsewhere... in addition, the POV template was not copied from another Wikipedia, rather it said some things about how the page was bad because Romanian and Moldovan are the same... that belongs in the NPOV objection on the talkpage, NOT in the template. Have I done anything drastic as sysop? Did I ban any users? No, I did not. Why did I request sysop? To protect the mainpage here (and I noted that as well). It is not acceptable to add such a template to the mainpage of any Wikipedia, if you disagree then, would you ever add it to ro.wiki mainpage if somebody asked?? --Node ue 17:26, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
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- Sorry, I've been busy lately and couldn't keep up with the discussion. I was (and still am) opposed to the idea of mo.wiki as an exact replica of its Romanian counterpart. Because that would be silly, to say the least. Even now, as I see, some of the labels here have double inscriptions on them (Editează - Едитязэ, Ajutor | Аӂутор etc.). This is redundant and unnecessary.
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- I will agree with Ronline on this:
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*The subdomain solution - setting up a mo-cyr subdomain, while letting mo.wiki subdomain be a redirection portal to both ro.wiki and mo-cyr.wiki. This would be advantageous because it would enable mo.wiki to be neutral and not contain any content, while also catering for the minority Cyrillic script at a separate subdomain. ....... ...interwiki links from other Wikipedias can be titled "Moldovenească (chirilică)" instead of just "Moldovenească" so that people can know that the language is usually written in Latin.
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- However, I agree with these points only if there is enough interest in the Cyrillic Moldovan encyclopedia to begin with. Those Moldovans who do reach Wikipedia usually come from a younger segment of the population and are more fluent in Latin script than in Cyrillic. We should not forget that Cyrillic's last official use in Moldova was 13-14 years ago. Even my grandma recognizes common words written in Latin :)
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- 5-10 years from now a whole new generation of people who have never heard of Moldovan/Romanian written in Cyrillic will emerge (a generation's span is normally considered to be 20-25 years). Event though it is already apparent now, it will be more and more apparent that a mo-cyr wikipedia is nothing but a curiosity, may be a monument to mistakes of the past? Nothing more. The Internet generation will be more interested in English and Romanian parts of the wikipedia than in an oddity like mo-cyr.wiki.
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- All - just my opinion :) Dmitriid 12:54, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
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- Let me add to that a little. Are Wikipedia pages created based on languages or on countries? If they are based on languages, then, honestly, there is no point in having a mo.wiki. The reason being, as I mentioned earlier in Huge_contradiction, the fact that there is only a 5% difference between Molodvan and Romanian, which makes them essentially the same language.
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- However, once again, it is virtually impossible to draw boundaries between languages. But 5%? Apart from truly slavonicized "versions" of Moldovan, which are prominent in Chisinau ("prostire" instead of "cearsaf" and the like), "literary Moldovan" is very close to Romanian - to the point when the distinction vanishes. Actually, there are dialects within Romania that are more different from Romanian than Moldovan.
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- So, is Cyrillic alphabet really a viable criterium for creation of a separate wiki? I highly doubt that. Logically it is wrong. It might be justifiable politically or emotionally...
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- BTW, I am from Moldova :) 9 years in a Russian school, 4 years in Moldovan-Turkish High School in the Moldovan group. Haven't been home for 2 years though :( Nu stiti cit de mult m-am saturat de Turcia unde sint acum. Offf.... :) Dmitriid 13:32, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
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Hi Dmitriid, I have a few things to say. I agree with most of what you have to say. However, as long as Moldovan is an official language of an sovreign nation, and 33% of the population of Moldova claims to speak it, there will be a mo.wiki.
I agree that Cyrillic and Latin should be in the same Wikipedia, but do you really think it will be accepted on ro.wiki to have Cyrillic content? If this is the case, I'm enthusiastic to close this Wikipedia, and move all the content there.
It is true that it's redundant to label things in both Romanian and Latin. However, if your grandmother were to visit this site (though obviously older people don't use internet much in Moldova), while she might be able to read common words in Latin, would she be able to read "lista paginilor pe care le monitorizez"? Maybe, but would she be able to read it without a lot of effort? Of course, most Moldovans of 20 or so years old can all read Cyrillic, but if a younger person or a Romanian visits this site, an interface written entirely in Cyrillic might be confusing.
Also, in the province of Transnistria, some children are learning in Cyrillic (although most are forced to), so it's very possible that the alphabet has a future for the language.
As noted before, I do not believe Moldovan is a separate language, rather, there are "two standard varieties" of the same language, similar to the situation in Korea (North Korea and South Korea have some small differences in official languages, and they also call them differently, North Korea as joseonmal and South Korea as hanguk'eo, although they're both called "Korean" in English). Not very many people argue that North Korea's language is a different language from South Korea's language, but most North Koreans will say they speak joseommal while most South Koreans will tell you they speak hanguk'eo or hangungmal (another name for the language).
The Moldovan communist government says some stupid Stalinistic stuff about how Moldovan is an independent language, and that it is combatting "Romanian expansionism", obviously that is foolishness...
--Node ue 05:32, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)