Talk:Паӂина принчипалэ/Архивэ3

Де ла Википедия ын лимба молдовеняскэ

Contents

[edit] Speakers

Actually the 1% of Romanian/Moldovan using chirllic was wrong. So far I know there are only 11,200 stundents in Transnistria studying in Moldovan (in Transnistria that means Romanian in Chrillic), out of 79,000 students (see info on the internet page of Olivia-press, state-run news agency in Transnistria http://www.olvia.idknet.com/news15-07-04.htm . The rest learn Russian). However, there are 6 non-governmental educational institutions in the territory of the republic which perform trainings in the Rumanian language (3400 children are enrolled in these schools). Nota Bene: For Romanian/Moldovan in Latin the Ministry of Education in Transnistria uses "Rumanian language". So that makes a total of 14,600 students, 23% learn in latin and 77% learn chrillic. Reporting that to the 196,050 total Romanian/Moldovan speakers in Transnistria we get: 45.092 writing in Latin and 150.958 writing in Cyrillic. The total number of Romanian/Moldovan speakers is about 26 million, so only 0,58% of Romanian/Moldovan speakers worldwide use Cyrillic (Transnistria is the only place where Moldovan is teached in Cyrillic; of course there are some people using Cyrillic in Ukraine and the western Rayons of Moldova but they don't exceed 10.000). If taking only Moldova, then you have a total of 2.845.600 Romanian/Moldovan speakers with a 5,3 % (let's say 6%) using Cyrillic and 94% using Latin. --Danutz
But Danutz, this is assuming that /only/ people in Transnistria use the language. Of course, not many other Moldovans use Cyrillic as their everyday script (probably about half use it for a secondary function, ie every once in a while), but there are definitely tens (if not hundreds) of thousands of Moldovans who use Cyrillic for business ledgers, diaries, and other similar "non official" functions. --node

Wow, that is a very thorough analysis. Also let's not forget that even if there is 0.58% of Romanians that use Cyrilic, it still doesn't make it a different language. Another point is that we all know the situation in Transnistria. Romanians are always beaten, arrested and even killed in Transnistrian jails. For example, see the case of the postman from the village of Vasilyevka that was beaten to death by the authorities. In other words those people are forced to adopt the Cyrilic alphabet. I really wonder if they would still do so by their own free will?

In any case we can start writing Romanian in Arabic letters, Georgian letters, Armenian letters, Hebrew letters and it still makes it Romanian and nothing else. For example Romanian was written for most of the medieval period with cyrilic letters all the way up to the mid 19th Century, albeit some letters were a little different from Cyrilic used in Russia or Bulgaria. Anyways, nobody called it Moldovan back then. HAHAHA! Immagine that! Can you picture the prince of "Tara Romaneasca"(The Romanianland) or Valachia, Mihai Viteazu( Michael the Brave) to say :

"Hi! I am the prince of the Romanianland but since us here write in cyrilic we actually speak the Moldovan language of the neighboring principality."
Well, node, in my opinion only romanian/moldovan speakers in Transnistria use cyrillic, as their every day script. Of course other people know cyrillic. I assure you that even in Romania there is like 5% of the population that know cyrillic (maybe I'm exagerating, but there are some less or more old people that know Russian). See this. In Transnistria the 3400 students learning in the Latin alphabet, and their parents protested very much against the use of cyrillic (there was a big issue last year). I'm sure that this were not the only ones to use Latin alphabet, just that there are some people that have very big financial and social problems in Transnistria, so they have other thing to focus on. There are some others that have fear about that. Anyway, we could say that worldwide 0,5 to 1% of Romanian/Moldovan speakers use Cyrillic daily.
And about the objections here of our unknown user: I saw node said more than once that in his opinion Romania and Moldova speak the same language, and he argued only about the alphabet.
BTW, do you mind if I write from now on in Romanian, because it is easier to me? I don't pretend that you all write in Romanian, but at least me, because it is at one point hard for me to write in English. It would be even easier for me using German, or maybe Spanish and Portuguese than English. --Danutz

Danutz, daca node argumenteaza ca diferenta intre cele doua limbi e doar alfabetul atunci limbile nu mai sunt diferite si nici nu ar trebui sa fie numite dupa nume diferite. Nu pot sa inteleg ce este asa de greu de inteles. Faptul ca populatia romana din RM a fost fortata sa foloseasca un alfabet diferit si fortata sa'i zica limbii dupa un nume inventat de Stalin, nu face ca limba "limba moldoveneasca" sa existe cu adevarat.

Pentru node (cu tot respectul ptr. patriotismul tau moldovenesc): chiar daca 0.58% din romani folosesc cate o data alfabetul cirilic, nu inseamna nimic ptr. ca la fel de bine eu pot sa zic ca 0.0001% din romani folosesc alfabetul evreesc. Faptul ca alfabetul se schimba nu face nimic. Romanii toti scriau cu litere cirilice pana la Cuza si totusi nu'i ziceam Moldoveneasca pana atunci.

Desigur va puteti intreba amandoi de ce sustin atat de vehement ne-Moldovenismul si nu tac din gura o data. Ei bine ptr. ca sute de mii de romani au murit in GULAGurile lui Stalin tocmai ca sa pastreze Romanismul in Basarabia. Cine suntem noi ca sa ne scuipam bunicii morti prin Siberii si sa ne intoarcem impotriva lor si sa repetam ca niste papagali spalatzi pe creier ca de fapt "in Ryespublika Maldavianiaska shye vorghestii Maldavianiasht!"

Cu respect, Duca

Duca (cu tot respectul pentru patriotismul tău românesc), well over .58% of Moldovans use Cyrillic everyday. Go to the links I posted on User talk:212.56.128.186. At least 5% of Moldovans use Cyrillic everyday. Danutz is just guessing that no Moldovans will use Cyrillic outside of Transnistria, this is not true.
Is there really anybody who writes Romanian/Moldovan in Hebrew, as their everyday script? If there is, I don't see why they shouldn't be able to read Wikipedia in that script.
You keep bringing up gulags again and again. Yes, we know, millions of Moldovans were sent to gulags in Siberia during Soviet rule. Yes, it was a horrible thing. But you use it so much, it's practically a cliché now. Node ue 22:26, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Ai dat-o in bara

This Comment:

"You keep bringing up gulags again and again. Yes, we know, millions of Moldovans were sent to gulags in Siberia during Soviet rule. Yes, it was a horrible thing. But you use it so much, it's practically a cliché now. Node ue 22:26, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC) " 

MAKES ME REALLY DOUBT THAT you are even "MOLDOVAN" at all because a true Romanian-Moldovan even a Moldovenist(Independentist) would not dismiss it like you did right here. This is like telling an Armenian to "stop whining about the genocide" or like telling a Jew to stop talking about the Holocaust so much because he's talking so much about it that "its a cliche now". That would be called anti-Semitism. THIS is called "Lack of RESPECT". In your case this is a lack of respect for the very country and people you claim to represent.

In reality I dont even think you are Moldovan. Tell the truth: You must be either a Russian-Communist from Chisinau or a Communist agitator from PMR(Transnistrian Republic). In either case it seems you have shown your true colors!

Hah! The first time you said it, it really brought up images in my mind. Second time, same thing. But then you keep mentioning it again and again and again, and I begin to become "desensitized". My mother is Jewish (and thus I am Jewish, though I am not "practicing" nor was I "raised Jewish"), and I am sensitive about the Holocaust. But it is used so much in arguments. Just mentioning the holocaust here now makes people say "Great... not again", it's only if you go into detail that some people may get emotional. In Yiddish, the most common insult for any non-Jew is "antisemitish" ("anti-semitic"), and it really has lost most of its original meaning... if Danutz or somebody else mentions gulags, maybe I will care, but when you mention gulags I stop listening. And it is really off-topic - we're talking about the alphabet, not gulags. --Node ue 10:56, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Nu am presupus. Am spus că cel puţin 0,58% şi cel mult 1% din vorbitorii de română/moldovenească folosesc alfabetul chirilic. --ro:Utilizator:Danutz
My stepdad's dad is pure Romanian. They had an estate (not a big one, but they were doing well) up north towards Balti. When Moldova came under the Soviet rule, their entire family was deported to Siberia. Now, here comes the interesting part often overlooked by many of those who are so quick with their judgements of other nationalities. His family survived and did quite well in Siberia thanks to the local folk who first took them in, then helped them build a house, buy cattle and so on. Quite a few years later they returned back. Of couse, their estate was long gone, so they settled in Chisinau. And now - for the weirdest part of them all. This man (he celebrated his 90th birthday two years back) has no hatred towards Stalin or Russia. The only thing he regrets is forgetting Romanian - he now speaks not a word of it :(
Yes. There was GULAG. Yes, there was deportation. However all these things are now usually being remembered by people who want revenge (?) or who want to sparkle renewed hatred towards other nations (see what the Baltic states are doing to the Russian minority). There are lessons to be learned from our past - for sure, but shoving them down our throat again and again and again will do no good. Dmitriid 13:09, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I didn't know you were Jewish. I am half Jewish(from my dad's side) and me too I am not practicing...but to say that the Holocaust theme has been used too much in arguments... I don't know exactly what to make of that. I would really strongly disagree with you there but then again that is my opinion. Personally I do not see how the Holocaust can be used to much in arguments. Its a historical fact and therefore it is used as such.

Going back to the alphabet issue (since you do not want to talk about the atrocities in the GULAG-another historical fact), I just cannot understand something:

1) If this is just an alphabet like you said so many times before, then why are you making an encyclopedia with a different name for the language as a whole? of course you can argue that u can call the langauge by whatever name you would like but then:

2) you mentioned that belorussian can be written in cyrilic and latin and apparently its true. but we have never heard of a different name for Belorussian that is written in Latin now have we? in other words belorussian written in latin is still called belorussian just like the belorussian writen in cyrilic.

Yes, this is because there is no political or ideological division between the two alphabets. "Belarusians", from the nation-state of "Belarus" (Belorussian is a Soviet name), use both. However, with Romanian/Moldovan, it's a different issue: "Romanians" from the nation-state of "Romania" use "Romanian", while "Moldovans" from the nation-state of "Moldova" use "Moldovan" (this is only according to some - some peole prefer to say they speak Romanian).
I don't think it's really very logical, but it's the status quo - most people who use Cyrillic for the language call it "Moldovan".

3) So then why adopt a Stalinist invented term like "Moldovan"? After all the CIA world factbook does not recognize "Moldovan" to be any different then Romanian. The least you could do is call the Moldovan encyclopedia a Moldovan-Romanian Cyrilic encyclopedia because really thats all it is.

"Moldovan" is not a term invented by Stalinists, that would be "Moldavian". "Moldovan", as the name of a region, has been around for centuries. As the name of a specific country, it's much more recent. Do you deny that Moldova and Romania have separate governments? Do you deny that, due to a long, horrible, Soviet occupation, Moldovan culture absorbed some Slavic elements which now makes it a little bit different from Romania? Most Moldovans can speak some Russian,, even if they are very patriotic, but with Romanians this isn't really true. There is much talk about the ethnic divisions in Moldova, and it's still a large issue -- Ethnic Romanians / Moldovans often feel that the Slavic minority (mostly Russians and Ukrainians) has no right to be there, and should be deported or something, and many ethnic Slavs often feel the same way, that the nation belongs to them and that Romanians / Moldovans are the ones who should be deported.
But in the younger generation, now that the ethnic tensions forced by the Soviet era are not there, people are making a mix of two cultures, a new, unique, bilingual culture that is much less divided; many youth will speak Russian and Romanian in the same sentence, regardless of their ethnicity, and in writing you will see them write Russian in both Cyrillic and Latin, and Moldovan in both Cyrillic and Latin, whatever is most convenient, and sometimes mixing them.
To Romanian nationalists like you this mixing of the wonderful advanced Romanian culture with barbaric communist evil Slavic culture must seem like a nightmare, but I for one welcome it. Node ue 22:09, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Unfortunately for you what YOU feel is not exactly equal to a Neutral point of view

Again I am not a Romanian nationalist. And I think I've just told you that I am only half-Romanian. Secondly this is an encyclopedia which values the "Neutral Point of View".

If you for one embrace "it" whatever this "it" may be, then that doesn't make it very "Neutral", now does it?

Secondly I think you have been quite detached from your country if you think that the old generation of Romanians want the Russian deported and the old generation of Russians want the Romanians deported but that the younger generation are a mix of the two and live happy ever after.

This is not only a generalization but its totally untrue. You see I have some relatives that are still living there and they tell me the opposite. The older generations of Romanians are more likely to be nostaligic for the USSR-days and are more likely to consider themselves as "Maldavians" rather then Romanians.

It is the younger generation of Romanians that define themselves as Romanians rather then Maldavians and it is them who want the Russians out.

As far as the Russians are concerned, there are very many older Russians compared to very few young Russians. Many Russians have been given flats and have been encouraged to settle in Moldova when they retired, hence the older ones are in preponderence.

Moreover many Russians have allready left Moldova. You would be surprised to see how many Russian-Moldovans you will find in North America. In fact only 200.000 Russians are left in Moldova right now, according to the last census.

What I am trying to get at is simple. The Romanianess of the people living there is accentuating, not diminishing. Maybe some people have mixed the two cultures but they are certainly not in preponderence. You can't just look at a few and generalize for all. Just because you have embraced a mixture of Romanian and Russian culture doesn't mean that everyone has. Hence this site cannot possibly be from a NPOV b/c it only shows ur point of view.


Anyways lets get back to the language issue. You keep on saing that this site is made for the 1% of people that like romanian in cyrilic. This still doesn't make it a language. It just makes it Romanian in cyrilic. Just like you mentioned earlier that Byelorussian in the latin alphabet is still Byelorussian.

I think that for the sake of a trully Neutral POV, we should call this wikipedia a Moldovan/Romanian-in-Cyrilic Wikipedia. And the language should be changed from "Moldoveana" which even the communists in Moldova don't call it that to "Moldoveneşte/Română".

One more thing. I notice some hostility in the way you answer to my objections, as if you see in me an enemy or something. I am simply pointing out the truth and believe me when I tell you that I do not intend for anything more.

A question: Have you ever actually been to Moldova?? Remember that 200.000 people is a large number in Moldova, given the total population.
Just because you're only half-romanian doesn't mean you're not a rabid Romanian nationalist. Ronline and Danutz both seem to agree with me, and they're both sensible Romanians. In fact, Ronline has even written some pages here in Cyrillic and he said it's fun for him.
I never said Moldovan written in Cyrillic was a separate language from Romanian. But why do you get to decide the name? Moldovan in Cyrillic is used almost exclusively in Moldova, so why can't we call it the name we who use it wish to??
Please see: One user uses cyrillic; Both russian and moldovan are used thruought the page, all cyrillic text is russian except for the comment by "Doncarlos" which uses Cyrillic for moldovan; The post which has a highlighted word in it is written in moldovan-Cyrillic. unfortunately the current version is unavailable as the comments have been deleted; User "new technology" mixes russian, moldovan-latin, and moldovan-cyrillic, user "romba" makes a post in moldovan-cyrillic; All users mix russian, moldovan-latin, and moldovan-cyrillic; A lot of moldovan-latin and moldovan-cyrllic with a little bit of russian; An equal mix of russian, moldovan-cyrillic, and moldovan-latin
You can see from this that we Moldovans are a very bilingual bunch. We also (especially younger Moldovans) switch languages a lot in the same conversation, although people from Russian heritage tend to use more Russian and people from Romanian heritage tend to use more Moldovan.
After years of oppressive soviet rule, we took in settlers against our will and were forced to write our language differently than we would've liked.
But when it ended, we were too used to it to care that much to switch, and we took in the sons of the settlers as our brothers because no matter their ethnicity they are still Moldovans.
You may say whatever you like that forum.md is a "Russian forum", but the simple truth is that it is used by Moldovans from every ethnicity, in fact the site interface is defaulted to Romanian.
I like how you are so sure that what you think is NPOV. In fact, it's very POV, at least as much as what I'm saying... --Node ue 01:01, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] I am dissapointed in you "commarde"

Alot of the sites you have pointed out above have very little moldovan-cyrilic and the moldovan cyrilic there is only used by the russian speakers who probably use it only because its easier since they are used to the russian keyboard.

Again you keep on bringing only three arguments and nothing new, hoping that if you repeat them long enough, then people will swallow:

1)calling the language moldovan only because it is writen in a different alphabet.

2)praising other romanians whom I respect but whom you praise only because they are passive towards the subject and do not question the neutrality in this whole "Maldavian Wikipedia"

3)calling me a romanian nationalist(obviously with negative connotations). Again try to understand that just because I am defending a simple truth does not make me a nationalist. You know the communists back in day used to call all people that defended the Romanian language in Moldova "fascists" or "nationalists" for the same reasons. Whenever a Romanian used to say he was actually Romanian and not Moldovan, the Soviets used to call him a "nationalist" and deport him and his family to Siberia"(sorry for making Gulag-refferences again but its true). You seem to have fallen in the same stepps: whenever someone disagrees with the existence of this Stalinist term "Moldovan",which for some sick reason you love so much, you accuse them of "nationalism".

Again, by not at least calling the language Moldovan-Romanian and using only the term Moldovan, you are cleary supporting a Stalinist view, with weak arguments( I might add)and one more time JUST B/C YOU THINK ITS NPOV, doesn't make it so.

[edit] Our Transnistrian KGB agent Nude ue has reverted to another tactic

Since he is bombarded with tons of counter arguments and complaints not only on this site but also on the main "Maldavanian" Wikipedia, he has stopped looking for a common ground alltoghether. Because his arguments are only limited to " 0.58% of Romanians like to read in cyrilic(sic!) and we can call the language by whatever name just because we change the alphabet", he has now reverted to another tactic.

He changed all the places where Moldovan appeared as "Moldovan(Romanian) Language" to just "Moldovan Language".

How ironic. I changed them... wasn't it you who changed them to say "Moldovan(Romanian)" in the first place? My version doesn't say that Moldovan is a separate language, or that it's the same language. Yours does. Mine is NPOV. Yours is not.
Way to go commarde Duck. Stalin would have been very proud of you for persecuting innocent Moldovans :)

Way to go commarde Nude. Stalin would have been very proud of you :)

[edit] POV Trully not Neutral

Ok so I guess we are going to go back and fourth like this forever. I would really like to challange the neutrality of this while page.

[edit] This page is rather an anti-Romanian propaganda page, it does not belong in a Wikipedia

No, this is not an option. The page should be put to a vote for deletion.

  • Just by using the Cyrillic alphabet, and calling the language Moldovan, it's anti-Romanian propaganda? Please. Node ue 12:30, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Vandalism

It's fine if you want to discuss things, but when you start to implement changes on this Wikipedia to make it conform to your view, it's unacceptable, especially since you aren't even Moldovan. Adding the POV template, and otherwise vandalising articles, is not OK. I have rolled back your changes and protected the problematic pages from editing. I have not, however, banned you because, unlike Stalin who you think I am so much like, I am not interested in stifling all criticism -- only in restoring order here. Feel free to edit anywhere you wish, as long as your edits are constructive. Node ue 12:30, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)