Disputatio Vicipaediae:Translatio nominum propriorum
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I think we can use latin suffixes if they easily attach. Almost any berg or burg could take burgum, as Myces mentioned in the article proper. Trouble of course arises in what's the bar for easy attachability.--Ioshus Rocchio 21:51, 19 Aprilis 2006 (UTC)
- Actually berg and burg should be two different endings: berg means "mountain", and appears to correspond to -berga, while burg is "(hill) town/fort", and -burgum (but it seems they've been confused for some time). I was actually doing a little survey of name elements from lists of Latinized place names in England to how endings were normally Latinized; the few I found so far:
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- -field → -felda
- -caster → -castra
- -c(h)ester → -cestria
- -don → -dunum
- -stead → -steda
- -stow → -stova
- -hampton → -hantona
- -ham → -hamum
- -hampstead → -hamsteda
- -ey → -ega
- -more → -mora
- -gate → -gata
- -ing → -inga
- -mer(e) → -mera
- -mouth → -muthum
- -b(o)urne → -burna
- -well → -wella
- -tree, -try → -tria
- -dale → -dala
- -combe → -cumba
- -wood → -wuda
- -ley → -lea
- -leigh → -lega
- Of course places in England of any antiquity will probably already have Latinized forms, but more recent places like much of America won't. —Myces Tiberinus 11:03, 20 Aprilis 2006 (UTC)
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- Of course...an iceberg isn't an ice town, clearly. My fault. This is a pretty sweet list off which to base things. -on seems to go to onia or inium, cf Londinium and Vasingtonia. Places like Astoria, Annapolis I think we can leave be.--Ioshus Rocchio 13:42, 20 Aprilis 2006 (UTC)
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- Hehe... well, the etymology factors into many of these, since the Latinizations are of earlier forms of the language, so I take the ending element, not just the last few letters per se. I'm not sure how exactly "London" segments, and my intuition is that the usual for -ton might be -tona. (I should mention the list I am beginning with is Disputatio:Index locorum in Regno Unito.) Of course Astoria, Annapolis, and other things that are clearly meant to be of Latin origin can probably remain the way they are (as would Londinium etc. which are too entrenched to change even if they did run afoul of whatever modern scheme we might use). —Myces Tiberinus 22:56, 20 Aprilis 2006 (UTC)
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[recensere] Latinisatio possibilis terminationes Slavicorum nominum urbium
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- -ov, -ów → -ovia (e.g. Pskov - Pscovia, Kraków - Cracovia)
- -sk → -scum (e.g. Minsk - Minscum vel Minsca, Pinsk - Pinscum)
- -grad → -gradum (e.g. Belgrad - Bellogradum, Belgradum vel Belgrada, Wischegrad - Vissegradum)
- -gorod → -gardia aut -gradum (e.g. Novgorod - Novogardia sive Novogradum, Belgorod - Belogradum)
- -slav(l)→ -slavia (e.g. Pereyaslav(l) - Pereaslavia, Yaroslavl - Iaroslavia)
Vide etiam: Index locorum in Russia. -- Alexander Gerascenco 02:23, 21 Aprilis 2006 (UTC)
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- What would be really good in both these cases is writing good, encyclopedic, well-referenced material on the usual Latinization of placenames, describing history, practice, recommendations, etc. under Latinizatio nominum locorum or some such. —Myces Tiberinus 16:48, 29 Aprilis 2006 (UTC)
[recensere] A Hand-List of Latin Place Names with Their Modern Equivalents
The book A Hand-List of Latin Place Names with Their Modern Equivalents, by Edward W. Burke, S.J., contains a similar list on pp. 348-9. Of course this list is more concerned with the meanings of the suffixes than the vernacular equivalents—in fact, vernacular suffixes are rarely given at all. But perhaps it can still be of use to us, so here's a summary:
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- -berga ← -berg "mountain"
- -brica ← "bridge" (also variant for -briga)
- -briga ← (Iberian variant for -berga)
- -briva ← "bridge, ford"
- -burgus, -burgum ← -burg, -burgh, -bourg, -borg, -bork, -bury, etc. "fortified town, city"
- -castria, -cestria, -cestra ← "Smith notes that in areas of England dominated by the early medieval Danes the suffix became Eng. -caster, while in areas under Anglo-Saxon rule it was transformed into -chester or -cester." Cool, eh? (and of course, it goes without saying that this is historically from castra)
- -dūnum, dūn- ← "hill, hill town, fortified town" (he has a whole section devoted just to this suffix on pp. 349-355)
- -dūrum, -dōrum, dūro-, dōro- ← "place on a stream"
- -ētum ← "grove" (of course: this is a productive suffix in Classical Latin)
- -furtum ← "bridge, ford" (Francofurtum)
- -magus ← "field, market, town" (leading to my favorite: Blattomagus, which is Celtic for "flower-field", but Latin for "cockroach-wizard")
- -mutha ← "river mouth"
- -polis ← "city"
- -stadium ← -stad, -stadt "city"
--Iustinus 16:25, 16 Septembris 2006 (UTC)
[recensere] Arlington
Once that's been driving me nuts for some time is a decent Latinization of Arlington. I've found nothing on several forays. Sinister Petrus 21:57, 16 Maii 2006 (UTC)
- Well...following the Latinization of Washington as Vasin/Vasingtonia...I think Arlin/Arlingtonia would be fine.--Ioshus Rocchio 04:35, 20 Maii 2006 (UTC)
- I was going to suggest Arlintonia myself. I don't know why I didn't (who knows? maybe to avoid getting a response of "licet" or worse "vide catenam etiam"). Thanks for confirming my hunch. Sinister Petrus 02:33, 24 Maii 2006 (UTC)
[recensere] Nomina Hominum
If someone's last name can be Latinized in a simple manner, it should be done. For surnames that are already in a plural form, the plural ending can be dropped and replaced with an "i". For example, Julia Roberts can be Latinized as "Julia Roberti" (Robertus is already the commonly accepted Latinization of Robert). Likewise, the surname Gonzalez can be Latinized as "Gonzali". Romance language surnames (Spanish, French, Italian, etc.) should also be Latinized, as these languages have originated from Latin and most of their words have Latin cognates. The surname Benitez can be Latinized as Benedicti, Romero as Romerius, Genovese as Genovicus, Pisano as Pisanus, etc. As for names using prefixes such as de or da, they can be dropped and replaced with a suffix inticating a belonging to. For example, Di Stefano can be translates as Stephanicus and DaSilva as Silvanus. If it is a Latinized last name in the singular form that ends in -us or another Latin ending, is thould take the feminine version when it is a female's surname. For example, the name Alexa DaSilva should be translated as Alexa Silvana. Likewise, Roberto DaSilva would become Robertus Silvanus.
- The -s in Roberts and the -ez in Gonzalez are not plural markers. —Myces Tiberinus 11:50, 16 Septembris 2006 (UTC)
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- It's a sort of genitive, isn't it? That is, González = hijo de Gonzalo = filius Gonzali? So the effect might look the same: Roberti would be genitive singular instead of nominative plural. For Pérez, the Latin according to this proposal would be Petri, since it stands for something like filius Petri. (Btw, I didn't write the original paragraph here.) IacobusAmor 12:33, 16 Septembris 2006 (UTC)
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- It's not a sort of genitive it's just an old genitive. -es was the old genitive marker in english, hence -'s these days. You can see it still in german and scandinavian names, ie Leif Eiriksson. But i think I would agree with you that the genitive and plural looking the same in latin, we would be safe doing Gonzali or Roberti. The lowercase f abbreviation of filius in latin was a formality not a rule.--Ioshus (disp) 12:53, 16 Septembris 2006 (UTC)
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First of all, the plural of nomen is nomina—to say nothing of populi, which Iacobus already corrected without comment. Second of all ... well, allow me to repeat some comments I posted here:
- ... The fact is ... that not Latinizing family names, for better or for worse, has been the default since, oh, somewhere in the early 19th century, I'd say. This practice is followed by pretty much all of the seriouse modern Latin "authorities" and publications. Some examples from the Periodica Latina I have handy:
- "...praeclarum lyceum Mediolanense, Iosepho Parini dicatum, nonnulli discipuli inundaverunt." -p. 211 Horatii Antonii Bologna "Diarium Latinum: Lyceum Mideolanense inundatum est." Latinitas, An. 53, Lib. 2, 2005.
- "Statua equestris Pauli Revere" -p. 576, Gaii Licoppe "De itinere Americano (III)", Vox Latina, Tomo 40, Fasc. 158, 2004
- "Qui liber in tres est partes divisus : primam, quæ parentes tractat et liberos, a Christiano Læs compositam ; secundam, quæ in amores incumbit et mores venereos, ab Antonio Van Houdt tractatam ; tertiam autem a tribus libri auctoribus curatam, quæ de matrimonio agit." -p. 16, Volfgangi Jenniges Lovaniensis "De Novis Libris", Melissa 119, 2004
- "Studiis Lindae Buck atque Richardi Axel ingeniosissimis..." p. 13, "3.1 Nasus humanus quantum valeat" Nuntius Leoniinus, Vol. 1 2004
- "Bavari Owenum Hargreaves nequaquam volunt amittere." Ephemeris
- Lest you think all these sources are merely influenced by each other, I could dig up older references, from the 1800s, if you like. But this will have to do for now. --Iustinus 21:41, 26 Augusti 2006 (UTC)
[recensere] Pocatello -> Pocatellum (Romanic names)
- Why not change Romanic Pocatello into Pocatellum? --Alex1011 18:31, 16 Decembris 2006 (UTC)
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- Because the purpose of the rules is to avoid inventing names (which in Wikipedia terms amount to original research). Besides, it seems 'en:Pocatello' is a Shoshoni name, not a European one. Basically, the point is that Wikipedia, even in Latin, is a reference. We don't want people to come here and think "oh, Capita Animalium is Latin for Thierhaupten, I can use this on my T-shirts" when it's just something one of our users just came up with. (Pocatello may well ought to be Pocatello, -onis, or even Pocatellopolis.) If, though, a proposed name is something we can produce references for, then by all means, let us present it. —Myces Tiberinus 00:12, 17 Decembris 2006 (UTC)
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- See also Vicipaedia:Coining. --Rolandus 11:11, 17 Decembris 2006 (UTC)
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[recensere] Italian names Medici in particular (here is the right location for our discussion)
I ask me if is not better to let the italian name (cognome), because italians names are already relics of an old genitive (e.g Marchetti from "figlio di Marchetto" in Latin filius Marchetti), therefore it makes no sense to translate them in Latin. See Gerhard Rohlfs, Grammatica storica della Lingua italiana e dei suo dialetti, vol. "morfologia", nota n° 1 pag. 8: about the origin of the italian names "l'autore si pronuncia qui per un genitivo nato e consolidato nel linguaggio degli avvocati", the author believes that it is a type of genitive created in the language of lawyers". Should we move the pages Silvio e.g Berlusco to Berlusconi? Ciao--Massimo Macconi 11:01, 17 Decembris 2006 (UTC)
P.S I reproduce the page on wiki taberna