Talk:Þēodiscland

Fram Wikipedian

Since someone left a snippy message in modern English telling me to "discuss before proposing a new translation", I might say the same to you, since you have not discussed at all. "Þeodiscland" is, if anything, a "new translation", and a neologistic barbarism that is completely unattested as far as I know. Every authentic source I have seen uses the name "Germania" for the homeland on the Continent. Yes, "Þeodiscland" would indeed be a literal, cognate translation of German "Deutschland", but things don't always correspond so simply from one language to another. In Old English, the adjective "Þeodisc" was never used to connote any nationality or ethnicity, but simply means "popular", coming as it does from "Þeod", meaning simply "people" (of any nation or race). Codex Sinaiticus 15:03, 1 Wēodmōnaþ 2007 (UTC)

No offence intended. I did not intend for my curtness to suggest rudeness, and should have followed up on this issue with you myself.
I am not defending "Þēodiscland" in principle, and neither am I the coiner of this "neologistic barbarism". My rationale for reverting your change was that, ugly and barbaric as it may be, "Þēodiscland" is the closest thing we have to a standard at present: there are many articles (stubby or otherwise) pointing to it.
See also Wikipedia:Hū secge ic for a list of adaptations and neologisms. I'll discuss my own thoughts for a translation momentarily. --Saforrest 19:19, 1 Wēodmōnaþ 2007 (UTC)

[ādihtan] Þæt Engliscan word þæs landes Deutschland

Here are the various possibilities, as I see them, along with my opinions on each.

  • Germania: As the Latin name, it has the virtues being both unambiguous and attested in the O.E. corpus, such as Ælfred's Orosius. It is obviously also close to the modern English name. It is the favoured candidate in Rupert Barnes' list Land þisre Worulde. The chief disadvantage is that it is rather unfortunate to delve into Latin to find a name for a country whose name has a Germanic pedigree in all modern Germanic languages except English.
  • Þēodiscland: A loan-translation of "Deutschland" into Old English, using the cognates of Deutsch and land. The biggest problem is that (as Codex Sinaiticus said) the meanings have diverged so while Deutsch means "German" (referring to a specific people), Þēodisc means "of the people, popular" in a general sense. It is certainly the authentic cognate of Deutschland, but there is no good reason why the Anglo-Saxons would use "land of the people" for what for them would be a foreign country.
  • Allemania: Also attested in the O.E. corpus, and similar to the modern word for Germany in many Romance languages. It is suitable for many of the same reasons that Germania is, but I think the case for Germania is stronger.
  • Adapt "Deutschland" into O.E.: We could adapt Deutsch to O.E. spelling (it would be something like "Dotsc", but I haven't got the /ɔj/ diphthong right: maybe someone can do better) and make this the O.E. word for "German". This is what we have to do for any other unattested word, and one can argue for some precedent on this in languages related to O.E.:
  • Middle English: ME calqued the word "Dutch" from the continental West-Germanic languages to refer to speakers of these languages. This persisted into modern times, where it has become specialized to the Netherlands.
  • Dutch (i.e. Nederlands): Until WWII, Dutch had a word Diets meaning "Dutch", constrasted with Duits meaning "German". Diets was favoured by WWII-era Dutch fascists and is no longer used as a result, but Duits is still used. See "Dietsch" on the English wikipedia.
This appeal of this idea comes from our desire for consistency with other Germanic languages, and to not have to resort to Latin. Unfortunately, it utterly reeks of neologism.

All told, I think "Germania" is the clear winner, at least in my mind. As some food for thought, I'll leave you with this list of names for "Germany" in modern Germanic languages:

--Saforrest 20:27, 1 Wēodmōnaþ 2007 (UTC)

I vote for the Þēodiscland, simply because Germania is a completely different concept. --James 20:39, 1 Wēodmōnaþ 2007 (UTC)
I can appreciate that point, but I think Germany and Germania are comparable enough. You could even argue that until 1870, "Germany" had no real meaning in English other than some vague approximation of Latin Germania. Before 1870 both "Germany" (in English) and Deutschland (in German) were used in a sense which included Austria, Liechtenstein, and German Switzerland. We might call this now "the German-speaking world".
When Bismarck created modern Germany, the names chosen for the new state were those formerly used for the German-speaking world, despite the fact that it was smaller. We would be following precedent if we did the same with OE.
But, maybe more to the point, a similar ambiguity exists for Þēodiscland. What would it mean to an Anglo-Saxon? If Þēodisc is taken as anything other than "people" in general, it would be taken as "Germanic", and would certainly not refer to a very specific group of Germanic speakers within the boundaries of modern Germany. And it seems strange to think that Anglo-Saxons would use a native term like Þēodisc to describe a people other than themselves.
As for disambiguating "Germania", we can refer to the Germania of the Romans as "Magna Germania", as it is called in German, or as "Germania Superior" or "Germania Inferior" when talking about the Roman provinces. The Nazi Großdeutschland could be either untranslated or "Grēat Germania". --Saforrest 21:20, 1 Wēodmōnaþ 2007 (UTC)
I concur with Saforrest's reasoning, and vote for Germania, because that is Old English, whereas "Þēodiscland" is Original research. Codex Sinaiticus 11:56, 2 Wēodmōnaþ 2007 (UTC)
I should say that, while I don't like resorting to neologisms, I don't think it's quite fair to employ "no original research" in this particular argument. While I do think we are as bound by the "no original research" prohibition as all other Wikipedias, we have to do original research when names are unattested in Old English. I prefer Elpendbānrīma to Côte d'Ivoire even though the former is a coining and the latter is the official name of the country.
Even when there is something resembling an attestation, we have to weigh the exactness of the match against the cost of resorting to neologism. As a name for Iran, I would go with something like "Iran" over Persea, even though the latter is attested. --Saforrest 12:27, 2 Wēodmōnaþ 2007 (UTC)

Also, check out the difference in en:Germania and en:Germany (Deutschland). To me, the word Germania refers to that period around the Roman Empire wherein the Germanic tribes had not coalesced into coherent nation states, and it was a general term used by Romans for that time period. Germany, or for us, Þēodiscland, sounds more logical to me, as a loan translation. If I were to say þēodisc land, or Þæt þēodisce land, can you tell I'm talking about Gentile land, or the people's land, rather than Þēodiscland, Germany? It's pretty clear to me either written or spoken the difference here. The only other concern is temporal, and the concept of Germania is gone to me - a historical concept relevant to the Romans and their times. The word Germania refers to Germanic, Celtic, Baltic, and Slavic inhabited areas.

As a somewhat related note, too, this logic of calling lands by their old names would continue to Iran...er, Persia, and across other countries as well, rather than trying to loan-translate their native names when the native Englisc word doesn't suffice. Francland, Grēcland, Englaland, and Īsland have no problems. Things like China, Russia, Turkey, and Germany are the ones we need to have new names for, preferrably either the native word changed orthographically into Englisc, or as a loan translation. Either way, they're going to be new translations, and I would look to other Germanic languages to see how they created their word, and use that same process with cognates in Englisc. --James 13:46, 28 Wēodmōnaþ 2007 (UTC)

[ādihtan] unrelated, but still important

Just for everyone's info, to say the name of the land it is se nama þæs landes not þǣm lande (that means 'for the land'). The genitive case is a nice thing to have! --James 20:42, 1 Wēodmōnaþ 2007 (UTC)